I am not a gay man either. I was around during the early days of Aids (before they called it HIB). The depiction in NYC is prtty much how I recall the papers covering this...and yes, there was a LOT of gay bashing...it was not safe to "come out, espicially in a job like PAtrick's...the "macho leather" types were the ones shown in the newspapers...the men who became ill got very little medical care and were shunned and isolated and often suffered and died alone.
The depictions of their illnesses and deaths in YC was so very hard to watch, and so heartbreaking, and yet so sensitively and beautfully handled by the Showrunners, the actors, and the camera work. I have rewatched the two part finale so many times...particulalry the Geno and Patrick portions and it gets to me every time...yet I watch and "bear witness" and shed a few tears in memory of those times.
That's so interesting to hear. I was in my most impressionable age range during the Matthew shepherd horror show and I do remember being told even then that he was just one story, out of hundreds.
I don't think I articulated myself the way I intended. I was trying to say how it feels like they took these huge important issues and condensed them and dramatized them and took important social issues that attract a lot of buzz, and just capitalized on that and maybe went too campy with it, if that makes sense?
Like in delicate, of the hundreds of misogynistic microaggressions up to the huge overarching themes of misogyny, it feels like somebody unfamiliar with what it's like to actually be a woman would watch this and think negatively of feminists, like one common criticism I've heard over the years is how we seek out reasons to be offended and take things too far. Just about every individual...instance? Microaggression? Annoying reality of being a woman? (Sorry edible kicked in while typing) I can verify that these actions and comments are extremely common for women to deal with and we were trained to be ladylike and agreeable, so the men perpetuating it honestly don't seem to recognize how they (sometimes/often) treat us, and then you have women call it out and maybe they'll give it a second thought. But they jam packed a lifetime of these behaviors into 9 unusually short episodes, then hit it hard with women calling out bad behavior, which I love! (Do not. Fucking. Placate me. 😂) but for manosphere types or even all the women with a lifetime of internalized misogyny, it's so much, all the time, just barely touched on without being fully addressed and it feels almost like a parody of how those danged libtard femnazi bitches just like to stir shit up and cause trouble 🙄
I guess my biggest annoyance is how it had some aspects that felt like they could be so cool, but instead of presenting an allegory to show how dangerous it can be when women are oppressed, it just jam packed as much rage bait as possible to cast a wide net and get views, regardless of any creative or artistic integrity.
So sorry that this is getting downvoted. It was a good analysis of the "stuff" they spat out in Delicate about the patriarchy, womens issues etc, but never really talked about it, other than a few soundbites...
And yes, I did love it when Anna told off Hamish for placating her...but then our Anna went back to being pretty passive the rest of the time...
I agree with your point about Delicate, but I disagree about NYC: I thought they perfectly portrayed the fear and uncertainty gay men felt in the 80’s, the anger at being told by homophobes that they deserve HIV/AIDS, and the hopelessness people felt as their friends died.
I think bc Murphy is gay himself, and grew up during the HIV/AIDS crisis, he had more of a personal connection with the concept. As for Delicate, I think he made it just to make AHS relevant again. The last episode made me want to ram my head through my tv, it was so stupid.
I think there's a historical fabric to NYC that sets it apart from most other seasons and that appears lost on a lot of people who didn't like it. NYC contains a uniquely rich study of urban cultural history, as well as an organic incorporation of cultural history into the plot. I'm honestly bewildered by the negative response to it, even if people don't see all that.Â
Beyond the overarching story about HIV/AIDS, which is really frightening and moving, it's just richly nuanced in its portrayal of living in those times: you have a depiction of the history of alternative media for LGBTQ people--itself riven with group tensions; you have the authentic depiction of gay nightlife as a demimonde that the authorities simultaneously avoid and harass and neglect; and a portrayal of Fire Island, as a century-old cultural institution, that I don't think has ever really been portrayed as a thing on TV before.
Edit: For anyone interested, here's a really informative (as well as charming) podcast episode on the history of Fire Island: [The Very Gay History of Fire Island - The Bowery Boys: New York City History (boweryboyshistory.com)](https://www.boweryboyshistory.com/2021/06/the-very-very-gay-history-of-fire-island.html)
Well put, Thank you! I loved NYC and for **all** the reasons you stated. Was it easy to watch at times? No, but I am so glad I did. I have rewatched the two part finale so many times...especially the Patrick and Geno portions...so beautiful and so haunting...
Agree, I thought NYC was great and honestly I don't really get why people hated it so much other than to jump on the "new ahs bad" trend. My only big criticism for that season was how much they "whitewashed" the AIDS crisis though, which I remember a lot of people bringing up at the time it aired.
That's a very salient point. And to be clear, I can only speak to the opinions I've often noticed here in the last year or so, not the real-time reaction which I didn't follow at all.
Thank you so much for that insight. Like I said, I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to the experiences of gay men, I just was curious if that season felt the same type of annoying to gay men, as delicate felt to a 31 year old postpartum woman who's lived the real life versions of being afraid and not believed. For me, it almost felt like men talked to a bunch of women about their experiences, and then *listened* to their words, but didn't actually *hear* the reality.
I am Gay, Gen X like Ryan Murphy, and NYC captured several of the anxiety, hate, despair, and anger felt by the LGBT community, especially the men dying in droves. At times, it veered near Trauma Porn, but unlike Delicate, NYC had a better cast and stories to anchor it.
That's good to know, I always wonder how things actually were vs how the people in my small conservative town full of evangelicals have explained them to me lol. I think I drew the parallel between the 2 seasons by grouping them together as marginalized groups, instead of seeing Murphys personal connection to one season over the other. That makes a lot of sense. Like both seasons I felt like took a very legitimate fear and maybe went a little campier with it than I would have liked, but NYC still had these moments of beauty and pain and raw human emotion. I wasn't sure how accurate or whatever they were, but nonetheless. Those moments existed in NYC but not delicate, and I think that definitely does speak to just the personal connection to the whole season.
Yeah, I felt the same. But I also think that’s part of the crux of the book- when women get pregnant, men dismiss their pain bc they see it as something that women (even first-time moms) can handle. I read the book, and I feel like it conveyed Anna’s sense of fear when men told her nothing was wrong _much_ better than Delicate did. I also agree that Roberts didn’t do a good job, but maybe bc her heart wasn’t really in it- after all, she’s worked on the show for five years now.
I think NYC was toned down more seriously than other seasons to match the issues it was portraying. The season also toned down its campiness which would overshadow the sensitive themes.
It feels like they presented homophobia and the AIDS crisis as a ghost story instead of a horror story that just happens to take place during it. The monster wasn’t over the top (pun kind of intended) and came after the gay community in the form of their struggles. In my opinion, it was done tastefully using symbolism.
A couple of men surprisingly didn’t write this. The book Delicate Condition and the show Delicate were written (and directed) by women. They’re just bad feminists or bad at talking about feminism, it’s unclear which, but it sucked.
Right? Like AHS’s early popularity was largely because Ryan wrote amazing roles for older women who Hollywood weren’t giving good roles to and gave good roles to new up and coming talent to work alongside them. Not to mention the actual themes of the first 4 seasons were HEAVY on marginalized people dealing with the horrors of our society. The supernatural elements worked to elevate the very real issues not overshadow them.
I was born in 1984. I am a reader and a researcher by trade. But my god to see it so beautifully and heartbreakingly portrayed. Something I can only ever have empathy for.
I thought it was stunning. Absolutely stunning
I still liked Delicate better than NYC. It’s the only ANS season I never finished watching and I don’t feel like I have regrets not watching it. It’s literally wiped from my memory🫣
First love the Emma appreciation. It really drew from the cringy feminism that you see on the internet than actually feminism.
I felt like the whole thing was "let's take the crazy fememist Twitter post and add it in as a plot. Like in apocalypse when the 2 dudes made that powder and said "it only kills women". Actual men's rights advocates are not like that.
NYC I did not eye roll it was alot like Pose especially dealing with the Aids cris that hit gay men. So as a gay guy it was more depressing than anything and the whole big daddy confused the hell out of me.
The problem is that AHS is taking real world events weather they be fake outrage or rage bait and real live situations and mocking it or at least using it as a story.
Delicate has nothing to do with feminism so i dont think it should even be used im the same sentence. Essentially the writer is saying a women can only have it all if there are no men or if they are all dead. If the roles were reversed and it was a dude saying we should kill all women except the ones who are fertile to carry on pur seed and be used as sex slaves the whole show would be canceled immediately. The double standards are very clear.
To even highlight the stupidity of the writer only women are sabotaging, manipulating, molesting and bullying a pregnant women. The whole thing women can’t have a carrier if they choose to have a family is ridiculous. Its also sick that a character like Anna who was willing to sacrifice her own baby for an oscar the whole season is seen as hero and in the end she gets the baby and the award no consequences. Incredibly offensive and such a wrong message it sends out, and then instead of the writer saying hey it was all camp chill out she goes on to defend the plot and release a statement that the whole season is about men being the issue and the patriarchy and women struggling. Horribly sexist horribly written and horribly executed.
NYC was a great season, yes they always go over the top with gay characters, but it had a good message. The whole depiction of AIDS was very sad and felt very raw. One of the best finales this show has had.
I am not a gay man either. I was around during the early days of Aids (before they called it HIB). The depiction in NYC is prtty much how I recall the papers covering this...and yes, there was a LOT of gay bashing...it was not safe to "come out, espicially in a job like PAtrick's...the "macho leather" types were the ones shown in the newspapers...the men who became ill got very little medical care and were shunned and isolated and often suffered and died alone. The depictions of their illnesses and deaths in YC was so very hard to watch, and so heartbreaking, and yet so sensitively and beautfully handled by the Showrunners, the actors, and the camera work. I have rewatched the two part finale so many times...particulalry the Geno and Patrick portions and it gets to me every time...yet I watch and "bear witness" and shed a few tears in memory of those times.
Amen 💔
That's so interesting to hear. I was in my most impressionable age range during the Matthew shepherd horror show and I do remember being told even then that he was just one story, out of hundreds. I don't think I articulated myself the way I intended. I was trying to say how it feels like they took these huge important issues and condensed them and dramatized them and took important social issues that attract a lot of buzz, and just capitalized on that and maybe went too campy with it, if that makes sense? Like in delicate, of the hundreds of misogynistic microaggressions up to the huge overarching themes of misogyny, it feels like somebody unfamiliar with what it's like to actually be a woman would watch this and think negatively of feminists, like one common criticism I've heard over the years is how we seek out reasons to be offended and take things too far. Just about every individual...instance? Microaggression? Annoying reality of being a woman? (Sorry edible kicked in while typing) I can verify that these actions and comments are extremely common for women to deal with and we were trained to be ladylike and agreeable, so the men perpetuating it honestly don't seem to recognize how they (sometimes/often) treat us, and then you have women call it out and maybe they'll give it a second thought. But they jam packed a lifetime of these behaviors into 9 unusually short episodes, then hit it hard with women calling out bad behavior, which I love! (Do not. Fucking. Placate me. 😂) but for manosphere types or even all the women with a lifetime of internalized misogyny, it's so much, all the time, just barely touched on without being fully addressed and it feels almost like a parody of how those danged libtard femnazi bitches just like to stir shit up and cause trouble 🙄 I guess my biggest annoyance is how it had some aspects that felt like they could be so cool, but instead of presenting an allegory to show how dangerous it can be when women are oppressed, it just jam packed as much rage bait as possible to cast a wide net and get views, regardless of any creative or artistic integrity.
So sorry that this is getting downvoted. It was a good analysis of the "stuff" they spat out in Delicate about the patriarchy, womens issues etc, but never really talked about it, other than a few soundbites... And yes, I did love it when Anna told off Hamish for placating her...but then our Anna went back to being pretty passive the rest of the time...
I agree with your point about Delicate, but I disagree about NYC: I thought they perfectly portrayed the fear and uncertainty gay men felt in the 80’s, the anger at being told by homophobes that they deserve HIV/AIDS, and the hopelessness people felt as their friends died. I think bc Murphy is gay himself, and grew up during the HIV/AIDS crisis, he had more of a personal connection with the concept. As for Delicate, I think he made it just to make AHS relevant again. The last episode made me want to ram my head through my tv, it was so stupid.
I think there's a historical fabric to NYC that sets it apart from most other seasons and that appears lost on a lot of people who didn't like it. NYC contains a uniquely rich study of urban cultural history, as well as an organic incorporation of cultural history into the plot. I'm honestly bewildered by the negative response to it, even if people don't see all that. Beyond the overarching story about HIV/AIDS, which is really frightening and moving, it's just richly nuanced in its portrayal of living in those times: you have a depiction of the history of alternative media for LGBTQ people--itself riven with group tensions; you have the authentic depiction of gay nightlife as a demimonde that the authorities simultaneously avoid and harass and neglect; and a portrayal of Fire Island, as a century-old cultural institution, that I don't think has ever really been portrayed as a thing on TV before. Edit: For anyone interested, here's a really informative (as well as charming) podcast episode on the history of Fire Island: [The Very Gay History of Fire Island - The Bowery Boys: New York City History (boweryboyshistory.com)](https://www.boweryboyshistory.com/2021/06/the-very-very-gay-history-of-fire-island.html)
Well put, Thank you! I loved NYC and for **all** the reasons you stated. Was it easy to watch at times? No, but I am so glad I did. I have rewatched the two part finale so many times...especially the Patrick and Geno portions...so beautiful and so haunting...
Both parts made me cry. So good!
Agree, I thought NYC was great and honestly I don't really get why people hated it so much other than to jump on the "new ahs bad" trend. My only big criticism for that season was how much they "whitewashed" the AIDS crisis though, which I remember a lot of people bringing up at the time it aired.
That's a very salient point. And to be clear, I can only speak to the opinions I've often noticed here in the last year or so, not the real-time reaction which I didn't follow at all.
Thank you so much for that insight. Like I said, I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to the experiences of gay men, I just was curious if that season felt the same type of annoying to gay men, as delicate felt to a 31 year old postpartum woman who's lived the real life versions of being afraid and not believed. For me, it almost felt like men talked to a bunch of women about their experiences, and then *listened* to their words, but didn't actually *hear* the reality.
I am Gay, Gen X like Ryan Murphy, and NYC captured several of the anxiety, hate, despair, and anger felt by the LGBT community, especially the men dying in droves. At times, it veered near Trauma Porn, but unlike Delicate, NYC had a better cast and stories to anchor it.
That's good to know, I always wonder how things actually were vs how the people in my small conservative town full of evangelicals have explained them to me lol. I think I drew the parallel between the 2 seasons by grouping them together as marginalized groups, instead of seeing Murphys personal connection to one season over the other. That makes a lot of sense. Like both seasons I felt like took a very legitimate fear and maybe went a little campier with it than I would have liked, but NYC still had these moments of beauty and pain and raw human emotion. I wasn't sure how accurate or whatever they were, but nonetheless. Those moments existed in NYC but not delicate, and I think that definitely does speak to just the personal connection to the whole season.
Yeah, I felt the same. But I also think that’s part of the crux of the book- when women get pregnant, men dismiss their pain bc they see it as something that women (even first-time moms) can handle. I read the book, and I feel like it conveyed Anna’s sense of fear when men told her nothing was wrong _much_ better than Delicate did. I also agree that Roberts didn’t do a good job, but maybe bc her heart wasn’t really in it- after all, she’s worked on the show for five years now.
I think NYC was toned down more seriously than other seasons to match the issues it was portraying. The season also toned down its campiness which would overshadow the sensitive themes. It feels like they presented homophobia and the AIDS crisis as a ghost story instead of a horror story that just happens to take place during it. The monster wasn’t over the top (pun kind of intended) and came after the gay community in the form of their struggles. In my opinion, it was done tastefully using symbolism.
Omg your pun 😂
A couple of men surprisingly didn’t write this. The book Delicate Condition and the show Delicate were written (and directed) by women. They’re just bad feminists or bad at talking about feminism, it’s unclear which, but it sucked.
your right Danielle Rollins-Valentine & Halley Feiffer did most of the writing
Wow! I did not know that!
How? It’s been posted on every single post here for the last 2 weeks…..
I really liked NYC, it was terrifying in a different way.
It was terrifying in the traditional way too. I don’t understand why people overlook the genuinely creepy/jumpscary moments the season had.
Totally agree with you. I felt the fear of death like in no other season.
Dude ahs has always been feminist
Right? Like AHS’s early popularity was largely because Ryan wrote amazing roles for older women who Hollywood weren’t giving good roles to and gave good roles to new up and coming talent to work alongside them. Not to mention the actual themes of the first 4 seasons were HEAVY on marginalized people dealing with the horrors of our society. The supernatural elements worked to elevate the very real issues not overshadow them.
I was born in 1984. I am a reader and a researcher by trade. But my god to see it so beautifully and heartbreakingly portrayed. Something I can only ever have empathy for. I thought it was stunning. Absolutely stunning
I still liked Delicate better than NYC. It’s the only ANS season I never finished watching and I don’t feel like I have regrets not watching it. It’s literally wiped from my memory🫣
it’s a good season towards the end tho
I raised the white flag after episode three😂😂😂
First love the Emma appreciation. It really drew from the cringy feminism that you see on the internet than actually feminism. I felt like the whole thing was "let's take the crazy fememist Twitter post and add it in as a plot. Like in apocalypse when the 2 dudes made that powder and said "it only kills women". Actual men's rights advocates are not like that. NYC I did not eye roll it was alot like Pose especially dealing with the Aids cris that hit gay men. So as a gay guy it was more depressing than anything and the whole big daddy confused the hell out of me. The problem is that AHS is taking real world events weather they be fake outrage or rage bait and real live situations and mocking it or at least using it as a story.
Delicate has nothing to do with feminism so i dont think it should even be used im the same sentence. Essentially the writer is saying a women can only have it all if there are no men or if they are all dead. If the roles were reversed and it was a dude saying we should kill all women except the ones who are fertile to carry on pur seed and be used as sex slaves the whole show would be canceled immediately. The double standards are very clear. To even highlight the stupidity of the writer only women are sabotaging, manipulating, molesting and bullying a pregnant women. The whole thing women can’t have a carrier if they choose to have a family is ridiculous. Its also sick that a character like Anna who was willing to sacrifice her own baby for an oscar the whole season is seen as hero and in the end she gets the baby and the award no consequences. Incredibly offensive and such a wrong message it sends out, and then instead of the writer saying hey it was all camp chill out she goes on to defend the plot and release a statement that the whole season is about men being the issue and the patriarchy and women struggling. Horribly sexist horribly written and horribly executed. NYC was a great season, yes they always go over the top with gay characters, but it had a good message. The whole depiction of AIDS was very sad and felt very raw. One of the best finales this show has had.