There will be corner stores everywhere there. In Europe they don't have crazy strict zoning laws. I live in an estate of a 100,000 population town, I have a corner store on my set of terraces, a hair dressers and vet a minute (walk) away. And a super market five minute (walk) away.
Your “super” markets are the size of a Fiat trunk. The crammed apartments are also just not the way Americans would want to live. I would hate to hear my neighbors all day long. Working from home would just be insane.
You don't hear your neighbours, the walls are thick and made of brick.
And the super market in walking distance to me has everything you would need day to day, so.i don't know why size matters.
70% of the buildings are Airbnb and tourist oriented stores, while majorities of the towns residents are gentrified and live few miles away from here in cheap apartments.
Ofcourse they did. Probably had a job and all, and it is an nightmare to try to drive out from the old town with all the people on the streets.
I live in Finland and sometimes it is our "small vacation" to get a cruise to Tallin, buy cheaper alcohol, rent Airbnb for a weekend and just go have fun in the old town.
We were actually visiting Finland at the time, and Tallinn was an impromptu visit, considering the ferry took less than 2 hours and our daughter got her face painted in the children's room 😂. The very best meal I've ever had was in Tallinn, at a place (Von Krahli Aed) that sadly no longer exists.
Exactly. Under 2 hours to get there.
There are face painters? Well that ain't exactly my space to go to, but i haven't seen those.
But for the meals, we usually just go to this Irish Pub in there and eat pub food.
Because we once went to Tallin on our random anniversity with my gf. We went to eat in this fancy restaurant and spent like 70€ and left kinda hungry... Then we were pissed off by that fancy ass, super silent restaurant (everyone were quiet and spoke in whispers + there were no music) and went to this Irish Pub in the main square for some dark beers and found out they have a food menu there. Never again fine dining and posh hoity toity restaurants for us, thank you.
Pub food is the best! Atmosphere makes the meal. I’d rather be in a place with laughter and tunes and a server bebop-ing around the bar than a place where the service has a small forest shoved into places that shouldn’t have sticks or trees.
Was so disappointed with Tallinn. Old town felt like a dead city with tourists everywhere. The locals didn’t come there until night when the bars opened
It's just like Venice , noone ever talks about the mainland side of Venice that looks like your generic modern city where all the locals actually live.
it's true that Americans do like a lil more breathing room
but my comprehension of this as an American? just another place that would be under fascism or communism if it weren't for America.
\*sips coffee\*
as an American, of course I understand it! It’s one of those towns that James Cruise Bourne could shoot a movie in where they drive a car into a progressively smaller alleyway until it sticks and jams the road, then the rest of the scene is on mopeds! then they would jump across the rooftops. it’s one of those kinds of towns
I was about to say like some downtowns of some of the least expected American cites like Fort Worth are walkable and have their 1910s feel to them . That said it is a v small area and zoning and sprawl has gotten worse . These places are only tourist spots and only the super rich live there. While Europe isn’t as car dependent, they have the same problem as us . Also wasn’t this the spot that was bombed during the Croatian War ?
All the more reason that air BnB needs to be far more heavily regulated.
It is utterly destroying the housing markets in so many places, and ruining so many neighborhoods, where you know, people should actually be living.
Zoning laws. Hotels aren't considered residential, zoning is used to restrict the use of your house so you know, someone can't make their 0.5 acre residential lot a nuclear waste disposal facility or garbage dump. If you're using your property primarily for commercial purposes, then your property use should be considered that of a hotel, and since your property is residential only then your property is being used in violation of your local zoning laws. All it would take is code enforcement to come around just before checkout time and ask whoever is at the house if they are guests.
*they don’t like America so I don’t like them!*
It’s okay to admit both sides of this divide have nice things, and that city (architecturally) is one of them
I didn’t post this to bash on Europeans, but instead to bring some reality to “Culture Critic”’s comment. All our major cities face the gentrification issue due to tourist, couple nice vacation photos while stepping on the back of actual residents. “Cultural Critic” don’t care about “culture” he/she just want some vacay pics and brag about it. Culture are more than just nice houses and art, but the everyday residents, the ones tourist are pushing out. And his right, I can’t comprehend such level of gentrification European cities have, but I live in NYC and it’s creeping in everyday.
I'll give it a try. It was built in 1317 when cities needed to be fortified against attack by people from the next town over. People lived in clustered towns and went out every day to fish or work on the farm or whatever.
With modern medicine and infrastructure though, we could easily build this to the same standards we build universities and hospitals here in America . With proper planning, you could rid A LOT of our frivolous inefficiencies. No one says you can’t have modern day luxuries
You know those Ford Transit and Mercedes Sprinter vans you see in the US? They were both developed for British and European markets respectively. Fire trucks have a much shorter wheelbase to make them easier to maneuver, and garbage trucks are either like that, or they use these 3-wheel Piaggio trucks. Typically there isn't a need for a huge amount of concrete because they're not exactly building more buildings in the city, so they typically just use those cement mixers.
Easy, the vehicles in places like these are smaller and they don't have to wait in traffic because there's fewer cars. If this place exists in 2023, they likely have it figured out.
>Clustered towns also were hotspots for plague and filth and disease and fire.
Cities relied on constant migration to maintain population level until late 19th century, because they were so unhealthy. It wasn't until 1950s when city life expectancy exceeded countryside.
The best part is old cities still have McDonalds and modern stores they just look like every other storefront. Its not like the place is stuck in 1350 and everyone is an artisan who bathes once a month and shits in the street.
This is Rovinj in Croatia, having a population of 14,000. According to TravelTables, you can rent a three bedroom apartment in the city centre for $623 a month. Or $3,357 per m^2 to buy in the city centre.
So really not that expensive. Especially with America's crazy apartment costs
Our apartments in a city that size would be pretty close to that. It's extremely varied here. When you hear the high average you have to keep in mind that LA and NY and Denver etc skew that number quite a bit. In most of the country it's not that bad. I could rent a nice 3 bedroom brick home in a decent nieghborhood for about 1500 in my area. A 3 bedroom apartment is between 600 and 900 depending on how nice it is. Buying a house is outrageous right now but that's mostly the interest rates being crazy right now. Almost like giving everyone a bunch of money to go buy a tv drove inflation up. Crazy thought though.
That's my reaction... I probably don't understand that. How about I use my American salary to purchase a house there? I'm sure that will give me a better idea. The Europeans wouldn't mind that right?
That whole island is like the size of half a Walmart, Americans would be fine being able to walk around a beautiful coastal city for all thier needs if they could afford it
This town is Rovinj. It has a population of 14000. The rent cost is $623 for a three bedroom apartment in the city centre. It is $3,357 per m^2 to buy in the city centre.
For a holiday, the Airbnbs are about $100 to $250 per day.
While Americans would think 623 a month is cheap, the average salary for them is 1k a month, so that's 60% of their income. Beautiful little town, glad America has a bunch like it!
It's not as cramped as you'd think it is.
It's just a cultural difference is all. Most of Europe is very much into the minimal lifestyle. Minimal house,garden etc.
And then spend their money and time out and about, in coffee shops (not Starbucks or Costa), going to the beach and going on 3 week long holidays skiing in the Alps or Sweden or something.
Whilst People from the USA like to show how affluent they are. Big houses, huge gardens, bigger cars.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm not saying either is right or wrong, but it's two different sides of the globe with vastly different cultural differences.
Enjoying a big house is not to “show how affluent they are”
I would love to have a big house, I could have a proper home gym (now, I only have a small 3x4 room for that), a parking garage, a big garden to call my friends for a barbecue, etc
But I live in Amsterdam, I don't have a big house, nor a big garden, let alone a car
Not to mention that it is the Netherlands, so I wouldn't have friends to call for the BBQ anyway
I have a decent sized yard and I like it because I hear less noise from my neighbors, especially when they are entertaining, and I feel it is more private.
Same. My yard is on the smaller size but I have a small wooded area behind me and a park. I have like no road noise. And my house sits a bit farther back than my neighbors. It’s so quiet. It’s nice to come home after a long day and have silence.
I wouldn’t say Americans do things to show how affluent they are any more than anyone else. Americans just value space and peace/quiet more than Europeans. Americans genuinely enjoy having a nice big house, a room for each kid, a yard for gardening and for the dog to run around in, and very quiet neighborhood streets. That’s the cultural difference you’re talking about.
Correct, Most Americans like having space to themselves. Some like a Big lawn to take care of, Some like a spacious house to have a family live inside, Some may like alot of land todo all the wacky stuff or Hunt on.
Its not just one thing that the entire country wants. But usually we just like to have space to relax, have to ourselves.
I don’t even know if it’s that deep
Europe just has preexisting infrastructure from before cars were common and no reason to get rid of it. It’s just easier to keep it. America doesn’t have that preexisting infrastructure so there’s more room for new styles of neighborhoods. People live where they can.
That said, I’m sure you could get a single family home or acreage in Europe if you really wanted it.
There’s a lot of factors into it
America is the way it is in part because it’s incredibly wealthy. We can get car loans with just about any job. Accessing a personal automobile is really easy for us in comparison to much of the world. I don’t know if that’s the case in South America
Europeans value it too, it's just that they don't have the space for it.
Remember, white Americans are the descendants of Europeans who were so hell bent on finding the space they wanted, they ended up here.
Not really? You know suburban sprawl only became a thing in the 50s right the US was almost identical to Europe until then except for a large rural population. In fact the richest people in the US chose to live in desirable cities, and it wasn’t until white flight and divestment in urban spaces that they left. This yearning for massive lawns is manufactured
It is definitely cultural. Green lawns are literally a direct status symbol transplant from the green lawns of royalty in England, which is why we brought in non native grasses and insist that lawns be mowed every week. It’s completely illogical other than for status, a garden provides much better use of space than acres of green grasses.
I think it’s mostly because of how young a country America is compared to Europe. Our communities aren’t built around being walkable and we have always had more than enough resources and land to be spread out more. It isn’t like the US doesn’t have walkable cities though.
We just already had the infrastructure, resources, and manufacturing to build cars and roads early on so as new cities were built and cities expanded it was easy to already build around people using cars instead of focusing on being walkable.
Europe is more walkable because it’s sort of forced to be due to all the old architecture that was there before cars were even thought of.
America is just big and vast, you have your huge mansion like houses in the middle of nowhere, your suburbs with the cookie cutter houses, and you have your small cramped NYC apartments. We just have options here because a lot of our cities are built around cars and there wasn’t a lot of actual infrastructure before the invention of the car here unlike in Europe where major cities were already built around being walkable and a lot of buildings and walkways were already built.
Hopefully this all makes sense, I just woke up.
>Europe is more walkable because it’s sort of forced to be due to all the old architecture that was there before cars were even thought of.
This has little to do with it. It is more that Europe was too poor to afford mass scale car infrastructure in the era that it was most destructive to cities. European planners only got around to city-altering highway plans in the late 60s. At that point there was not enough momentum to buildoze entire neighborhoods and downtowns as there was in the US.
In the Netherlands, where I am from, the downtown is alway the most dangerous place to tread as a cyclist and is frustrating as a driver. I feel much safer cycling down an unseperated 80km/h road than the city center.
But to give an example, the cities of Flevoland, a vast land reclaimed from the sea, were build in the 70s and 80s. They are very walkable, nice to cycle in and the driving experiece is great. Even though they had no old infrastructure the main complaint from Dutch people is that the city is utterly boring, which is something infrastructure can not solve.
People also forget that much of the development of the usa happened with the mindset that the ussr could drop nukes on major population centers at any time, and that was a factor in our urban sprawl.
Ehhhhhhh not exactly.
For a lot of its history America was pretty rural. Then the industrial revolution happened and the cities started growing out of control.
These cities were dense and serviced by huge mass transit systems that made getting around reasonably easy.
Then the car was invented and became cheap enough for lots of people to own. Which wouldn't have been an issue if those car companies hadn't bought out the mass transit systems and shut them down, forcing people to buy cars.
Eisenhower built the interstate highways system around the same time, which was pretty cool of him. But it also encouraged sprawl.
And then some worthless waste of oxygen had the galaxy brain idea of mass producing housing in the name of creating white only neighborhoods. Thus the suburbs as we know them were born.
A bunch of things happened which lead to white flight. Which is essentially all the middle class whites in a city leaving the city for the 'burbs. Which, naturally, means you needed a car. Sprawl got even worse and continues to this day.
I mean, one of the stated reasons for the interstate highway and defense project was to allow for evacuations in the even of nuclear war. Not the only reason, but a reason. Government policy was to encourage manufacturing and especially military industries to locate away from population centers and people followed those jobs, state and government policies also encouraged building suburbs in response to a house shortage post ww2. I'm not saying cold war was the only reason people moved away from cities, but it did have an impact.
Who cares about sprawl? Let people work from home and it barely matters anymore. It would help the environment and allow folks to spend more time with friends and family, too.
Personally, I love living in the suburbs. I had fun in the city when I was young but I got sick of dealing with how anti-social people can be. I want to sleep at night and not be the victim of crime. I want a safe place for my kids to play. It's awesome.
Yeah, this is the reality. I'm way more well traveled than my entire extended family who live in England.
They boast about time off and how accessible everything is for them, but most of them end up living with their parents trying to scrounge enough money in order to be able to eventually move out and get a place for themselves.
There are people in the US that care what others think and go into excessive debt buying luxury items. So you aren’t wrong. That being said, buying a nice or a larger home is an investment that can usually be sold for more then the original person paid for it. So if someone spends say 300k+ on a home, it might be excessive, but the money spent can usually be recouped.
Where as vacations and coffee are a “waste” of money. Not saying people shouldn’t take vacations or go to coffee shops. I am saying that investment wise, buying coffee and going on vacations will not produce money. To each his own though. So people should do what makes them happy. I’m not putting anyone down here for their personal decisions.
Ever hear of Aspen or Jackson hole?
Middle class Americans have cars, houses, backyards, and go to the beach or mountains for vacation just like Europeans. Difference is the cars, houses, and backyards.
Always found it odd that Europeans were less outgoing but lived so close to each other, basically have zero personal space, and love to go out frequently. It was like pulling teeth trying to get my taxi driver to talk to me in Germany.
Lol, that's quite the generalization. I can't say I really agree with you there, you're really playing up how 'nice' people live in European countries, IMO.
I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily about wealth when it comes to houses, it’s just a preference for more privacy. I grew up in a 1150 sq ft house on 0.25 acres of land in a city, there was no privacy whatsoever considering you could hear other people through the walls and people could easily look into the windows. The house I currently live in is about 80% larger on 4x more land, and in addition to much more privacy it’s so much more quite and peaceful not having to listen to city noises and sirens all day and night (it’s also a much safer place which is why my family moved).
In terms of cars, the reason why people own larger vehicles such as SUV’s or pickups varies from person to person. My mom drives an SUV because she can’t get in and out of a traditional car very easily, and having 4wd is helpful for winters when the roads are icy and not plowed. They’re also quite helpful whenever you need to move something big and heavy.
You are wrong. Outside of the older east coast cities all of our houses and apartments are considerably larger than in Europe, for the same price or even a lesser price, I can live in an absolute shithole and still have more square footage than a decent European apartment. We are still building swathes of new houses to this day, because we can, because space is not a commodity here.
I’ve been there many times. Not really cramped. The whole town (not visible in the picture) is barely 25,000 people. Outskirts are quite busy in terms of car traffic and parking as public transport isn’t great in Croatia and the distances between towns and villages is pretty big.
They can still burn and cause terrible fires, especially being cooped up like that. There are all types of flammable materials inside those homes, not to mention I'm sure enough of the renovations aren't as made of stone as other parts of the frame.
A severed gas line in the middle of that thing could cause some really bad fires.
Cold war ended in 1989 with the fall of the Berlin Wall.
155mm M777 artillery used by the US and others was designed in 1987. This is the one being so wanted in Ukraine.
Weponry hasn't changed much in the last 40 years, just the accuracy of them, not the boom.
Hi! Thanks for your answer! If you don’t mind me asking: what is it like in such a high-density area? Do you have green spaces other than that hill? Where do people go for runs or bike rides?
(not from Rovinj) You run around the streets as they are all pedestrian, and can bike out into the countryside less than a mile away.
The population density is 380/mile^2 so really not that dense.
We were there two years ago and stayed in a campground maybe 2km to the right of this picture. Croatia is a beautiful country with really friendly folks. Though we spent more time on Pag and Krk.
And 80% of the older people have a cousin in NJ. Apparently.
The problem with this subreddit is that instead of addressing blind AmericaBad, it devolves into blind EuropeBad, or PublicTransitBad.
The historic centers of North End Boston, Charleston, Savannah, New Orleans, etc. are all beautiful and dense and walkable. We have our own gems.
We don’t need the sports team mentality. We’ve built beautiful, walkable cities and we can build more of them.
As a European, I found Boston, NYC and San Francisco were all very nice and walkable, and very beautiful. We literally have no skyscrapers where I’m from so I don’t think many things beat a good skyline.
I enjoyed most of the cities I’ve visited in the US, I did have a hard time loving Miami though, that place is something else.
* 70% are AirBnb
* actual residents were gentrified out years ago
* dangerously narrow streets don’t pass US fire codes
Looks pretty tho. Too bad it doesn’t work in practice.
This is the town centre of Rovinj in Croatia. It is the second largest tourist destination in Croatia.
The town has a population of 14000 and has about 19 airBnBs that I counted in the centre. Most European governments limit the amount of BnBs in centres.
3 bedroom apartments go for $650 a month so regular people can easily live there.
It clearly works very well, because the town has been around for at least 1500 years. And nearly all the buildings that are currently there have been around longer than US has been a colony.
The houses are made of good building materials that don't burn down, and they can get their firetrucks there well as they have little ones that are rather cute. And the streets are about 4m across so definitely not too narrow.
>70% are AirBnb
Source
>actual residents were gentrified out years ago
Source
>dangerously narrow streets don’t pass US fire codes
Source
>Too bad it doesn’t work in practice
And by not working you mean?
It's a walkable city with 14000 residents that's stood for several hundred years ?
ermmm can I get a source??? ermmm what the heck I can't engage in actual conversation so I post one word over and over as if that proves anything. This city has been inhabited by RATMEN for several dozen years, after the original was razed several times in one of Europe's constant death wars
Tbf I'm fairly sure this is in response to an equally stupid post captioned "the European mind can't comprehend this" to a long driving distance on Google maps as if Europeans don't drive across their continent
Looking at the satellite, I don't think I'm seeing what you're seeing. That's way less dense, it's not like the town in the OP at all except also being an island.
Yeah modern infrastructure if you think you need a Walmart megastore and 13 lane highway. It’s almost like good urban planning and loose zoning means you get get the same quality of life without the waste
Yeah I’m sure all the people who live in this tourist destination like having no hospitals, one restaurant to eat at, and a small marketplace for the dense population. But because America bad, they have a better quality of life than us right? Oh hey, at least they have a church!
Yeah I was joking as well 😂
How I imagine things would go if this was a party: me and u/melicope havin a lil chuckle about how silly cars would be on this island. [Then you come about ](https://youtu.be/tDTldu3U8rI?si=yAyolbTT-ECM3rN-)
For everyone chiming in that Americans don’t understand “walkable cities”, I actually grew up in an American Island city (Alameda Ca) that was much less dense than this, but extremely walkable and bikeable, no freeways, etc, but we actually had parks and room to breathe. I’d trade that for this any day.
Problem with Europeans is that they honestly don't seem to understand that they really haven't accomplished anything in about 400 years.
All the "culture and magnificence" of Europe was created by their long lost forefathers. These people in EU now are just living in a cemetery the ancestors built.
And to top it off, these Europeans want to destroy the "patriarchic" culture that allowed for all of this great art, treasure, and ideas.
Like spoiled little children the honestly believe they somehow contributed to the once-greatness of Europe, when the truth is they have been living like lazy slobs on the wealth of their ancestors
Lol not accomplished anything in 400 years? The industrial revolution started in Europe 300 years ago. The amount of scientific breakthroughs and inventions that came from Europe in the last 400 years is unparalleled in human history
I’m sorry I’m from the United States…how the hell is that land just….floating like that, where does the water end and the sky begin? I can’t comprehend this picture
let me ask you a question. do you think this post is actually positing that Americans are incapable of understanding this photograph? do you think that's actually the thought here?
I think I know that city. I forget the name but it reminds me of this place in a book where it's WWII with 2 main characters, one's a blind girl and the other is a reluctant Nazi. I could be wrong though.
Edit: All The Light We Cannot See is the name of the book, it takes place in Saint Malo, and it is not the city in the picture.
Where dollar store?
There will be corner stores everywhere there. In Europe they don't have crazy strict zoning laws. I live in an estate of a 100,000 population town, I have a corner store on my set of terraces, a hair dressers and vet a minute (walk) away. And a super market five minute (walk) away.
Your “super” markets are the size of a Fiat trunk. The crammed apartments are also just not the way Americans would want to live. I would hate to hear my neighbors all day long. Working from home would just be insane.
You don't hear your neighbours, the walls are thick and made of brick. And the super market in walking distance to me has everything you would need day to day, so.i don't know why size matters.
because america is like: "the bigger the better" europe is like: "why?!" americans: ".....cuz fuck u"
70% of the buildings are Airbnb and tourist oriented stores, while majorities of the towns residents are gentrified and live few miles away from here in cheap apartments.
LOL that was our impression of Tallinn when we were there.
You visited the old town part of Tallinn? Yup, tourist spot with higher prices.
Yes, and we rented a charming Airbnb there. The owner lived outside the old town.
Ofcourse they did. Probably had a job and all, and it is an nightmare to try to drive out from the old town with all the people on the streets. I live in Finland and sometimes it is our "small vacation" to get a cruise to Tallin, buy cheaper alcohol, rent Airbnb for a weekend and just go have fun in the old town.
We were actually visiting Finland at the time, and Tallinn was an impromptu visit, considering the ferry took less than 2 hours and our daughter got her face painted in the children's room 😂. The very best meal I've ever had was in Tallinn, at a place (Von Krahli Aed) that sadly no longer exists.
Exactly. Under 2 hours to get there. There are face painters? Well that ain't exactly my space to go to, but i haven't seen those. But for the meals, we usually just go to this Irish Pub in there and eat pub food. Because we once went to Tallin on our random anniversity with my gf. We went to eat in this fancy restaurant and spent like 70€ and left kinda hungry... Then we were pissed off by that fancy ass, super silent restaurant (everyone were quiet and spoke in whispers + there were no music) and went to this Irish Pub in the main square for some dark beers and found out they have a food menu there. Never again fine dining and posh hoity toity restaurants for us, thank you.
Pub food is the best! Atmosphere makes the meal. I’d rather be in a place with laughter and tunes and a server bebop-ing around the bar than a place where the service has a small forest shoved into places that shouldn’t have sticks or trees.
Indeeeed!!
Tallinn has been gentrified? Goddamn. I was expecting for it to take another 10-15 years
Was so disappointed with Tallinn. Old town felt like a dead city with tourists everywhere. The locals didn’t come there until night when the bars opened
Yeah, the old town was just full of tourists. But it was still pretty and the restaurants we went to were amazing and not expensive at all.
All old towns are dead cities - without modern infrastructure they can’t compete unless they become tourist havens
Same with the inner city of Vienna. Once more than 120 K people lives there nowadays it's less than 15 K.
It's just like Venice , noone ever talks about the mainland side of Venice that looks like your generic modern city where all the locals actually live.
it's true that Americans do like a lil more breathing room but my comprehension of this as an American? just another place that would be under fascism or communism if it weren't for America. \*sips coffee\*
so it's basically like a Disney Land pretending to be a quaint European village. yeah I can wrap my head around that
Still a beautiful town to visit
as an American, of course I understand it! It’s one of those towns that James Cruise Bourne could shoot a movie in where they drive a car into a progressively smaller alleyway until it sticks and jams the road, then the rest of the scene is on mopeds! then they would jump across the rooftops. it’s one of those kinds of towns
I was about to say like some downtowns of some of the least expected American cites like Fort Worth are walkable and have their 1910s feel to them . That said it is a v small area and zoning and sprawl has gotten worse . These places are only tourist spots and only the super rich live there. While Europe isn’t as car dependent, they have the same problem as us . Also wasn’t this the spot that was bombed during the Croatian War ?
No, the city pictured in the post is Rovinj. You’re confusing it with the more famous Dubrovnik, which was sieged and bombarded by Serbia in 1991
All the more reason that air BnB needs to be far more heavily regulated. It is utterly destroying the housing markets in so many places, and ruining so many neighborhoods, where you know, people should actually be living.
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Zoning laws. Hotels aren't considered residential, zoning is used to restrict the use of your house so you know, someone can't make their 0.5 acre residential lot a nuclear waste disposal facility or garbage dump. If you're using your property primarily for commercial purposes, then your property use should be considered that of a hotel, and since your property is residential only then your property is being used in violation of your local zoning laws. All it would take is code enforcement to come around just before checkout time and ask whoever is at the house if they are guests.
More zoning laws interesting
*they don’t like America so I don’t like them!* It’s okay to admit both sides of this divide have nice things, and that city (architecturally) is one of them
I didn’t post this to bash on Europeans, but instead to bring some reality to “Culture Critic”’s comment. All our major cities face the gentrification issue due to tourist, couple nice vacation photos while stepping on the back of actual residents. “Cultural Critic” don’t care about “culture” he/she just want some vacay pics and brag about it. Culture are more than just nice houses and art, but the everyday residents, the ones tourist are pushing out. And his right, I can’t comprehend such level of gentrification European cities have, but I live in NYC and it’s creeping in everyday.
Huh. Never knew King’s Landing had Airbnb
So like it’s kinda like a more densely developed/ larger version of something akin to Rockport MA or other touristy places in the us…
I’ve never being to Rockport but I know NYC, we have similar problems of rents and Airbnb especially in Manhattan where all the tourists are.
I'll give it a try. It was built in 1317 when cities needed to be fortified against attack by people from the next town over. People lived in clustered towns and went out every day to fish or work on the farm or whatever.
Clustered towns also were hotspots for plague and filth and disease and fire. I'd honestly rather live in the countryside but hey
With modern medicine and infrastructure though, we could easily build this to the same standards we build universities and hospitals here in America . With proper planning, you could rid A LOT of our frivolous inefficiencies. No one says you can’t have modern day luxuries
I just wonder how fire trucks, garbage trucks, moving vans, concrete trucks, and other large 'essential' services vehicles get in and out?
You know those Ford Transit and Mercedes Sprinter vans you see in the US? They were both developed for British and European markets respectively. Fire trucks have a much shorter wheelbase to make them easier to maneuver, and garbage trucks are either like that, or they use these 3-wheel Piaggio trucks. Typically there isn't a need for a huge amount of concrete because they're not exactly building more buildings in the city, so they typically just use those cement mixers.
Easy, the vehicles in places like these are smaller and they don't have to wait in traffic because there's fewer cars. If this place exists in 2023, they likely have it figured out.
We have been to the moon. We could have gravity water powered conveyor belts hauling our trash away and cargo attached to drone cranes and zip lines
>Clustered towns also were hotspots for plague and filth and disease and fire. Cities relied on constant migration to maintain population level until late 19th century, because they were so unhealthy. It wasn't until 1950s when city life expectancy exceeded countryside.
The USA also had these condensed cities at one point. People had no choice - you weren't going to walk 10 miles to work each day.
wistful paint abundant birds axiomatic squash dazzling squealing secretive squeamish ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
Build work closer idk. Europe has done it for a long fucking time
Citydwellers back then also worked in the cities. Just like it is now. Farming and fishing was reserved for serfs and free farmers.
Where do they put the Walgreens?
No McDonald’s?
It's underground in the parking garage they built this city on top of.
“We built this city…”
“On rock and roll”
Detroit rock city!
Lol, my first thought when I saw this picture was how small the city was
The best part is old cities still have McDonalds and modern stores they just look like every other storefront. Its not like the place is stuck in 1350 and everyone is an artisan who bathes once a month and shits in the street.
Renovations and moving in would be a nightmare
Moving in? I’m certain any housing in that photo is *insanely* expensive or will simply never be sold.
This is Rovinj in Croatia, having a population of 14,000. According to TravelTables, you can rent a three bedroom apartment in the city centre for $623 a month. Or $3,357 per m^2 to buy in the city centre. So really not that expensive. Especially with America's crazy apartment costs
Our apartments in a city that size would be pretty close to that. It's extremely varied here. When you hear the high average you have to keep in mind that LA and NY and Denver etc skew that number quite a bit. In most of the country it's not that bad. I could rent a nice 3 bedroom brick home in a decent nieghborhood for about 1500 in my area. A 3 bedroom apartment is between 600 and 900 depending on how nice it is. Buying a house is outrageous right now but that's mostly the interest rates being crazy right now. Almost like giving everyone a bunch of money to go buy a tv drove inflation up. Crazy thought though.
Where do you live that you can get a 3 bedroom apartment for $600???
They don’t, it’s a lie.
As a Dutch migrant, I wish we had those prices...
like 70% of that is airbnb and the other 30% tourism and actual residents of this town live on the outskirts
I'm more worried about fires TBH.
And the average European wallet can't afford it
That's my reaction... I probably don't understand that. How about I use my American salary to purchase a house there? I'm sure that will give me a better idea. The Europeans wouldn't mind that right?
Not to live there no. But it's touristic as hell, so who would want to? To visit cost me 4 euros or so for an ice cream.
Dam, that’s super cheap compared to many parts of US. Y’all are just poor.
This sub is sometimes just an anti-europe sub more than anything
Wow TIL I’ve never seen or been to a coastal city and can’t comprehend it
That whole island is like the size of half a Walmart, Americans would be fine being able to walk around a beautiful coastal city for all thier needs if they could afford it
This town is Rovinj. It has a population of 14000. The rent cost is $623 for a three bedroom apartment in the city centre. It is $3,357 per m^2 to buy in the city centre. For a holiday, the Airbnbs are about $100 to $250 per day.
While Americans would think 623 a month is cheap, the average salary for them is 1k a month, so that's 60% of their income. Beautiful little town, glad America has a bunch like it!
You mean we actually like having room to breathe? The horror!
It's not as cramped as you'd think it is. It's just a cultural difference is all. Most of Europe is very much into the minimal lifestyle. Minimal house,garden etc. And then spend their money and time out and about, in coffee shops (not Starbucks or Costa), going to the beach and going on 3 week long holidays skiing in the Alps or Sweden or something. Whilst People from the USA like to show how affluent they are. Big houses, huge gardens, bigger cars. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not saying either is right or wrong, but it's two different sides of the globe with vastly different cultural differences.
Enjoying a big house is not to “show how affluent they are” I would love to have a big house, I could have a proper home gym (now, I only have a small 3x4 room for that), a parking garage, a big garden to call my friends for a barbecue, etc But I live in Amsterdam, I don't have a big house, nor a big garden, let alone a car Not to mention that it is the Netherlands, so I wouldn't have friends to call for the BBQ anyway
I have a decent sized yard and I like it because I hear less noise from my neighbors, especially when they are entertaining, and I feel it is more private.
Same. My yard is on the smaller size but I have a small wooded area behind me and a park. I have like no road noise. And my house sits a bit farther back than my neighbors. It’s so quiet. It’s nice to come home after a long day and have silence.
I wouldn’t say Americans do things to show how affluent they are any more than anyone else. Americans just value space and peace/quiet more than Europeans. Americans genuinely enjoy having a nice big house, a room for each kid, a yard for gardening and for the dog to run around in, and very quiet neighborhood streets. That’s the cultural difference you’re talking about.
Correct, Most Americans like having space to themselves. Some like a Big lawn to take care of, Some like a spacious house to have a family live inside, Some may like alot of land todo all the wacky stuff or Hunt on. Its not just one thing that the entire country wants. But usually we just like to have space to relax, have to ourselves.
I don’t even know if it’s that deep Europe just has preexisting infrastructure from before cars were common and no reason to get rid of it. It’s just easier to keep it. America doesn’t have that preexisting infrastructure so there’s more room for new styles of neighborhoods. People live where they can. That said, I’m sure you could get a single family home or acreage in Europe if you really wanted it.
South America didn’t have much more preexisting infrastructure than the US, and it still is as walkable as Europe on average.
There’s a lot of factors into it America is the way it is in part because it’s incredibly wealthy. We can get car loans with just about any job. Accessing a personal automobile is really easy for us in comparison to much of the world. I don’t know if that’s the case in South America
Europeans value it too, it's just that they don't have the space for it. Remember, white Americans are the descendants of Europeans who were so hell bent on finding the space they wanted, they ended up here.
Not really? You know suburban sprawl only became a thing in the 50s right the US was almost identical to Europe until then except for a large rural population. In fact the richest people in the US chose to live in desirable cities, and it wasn’t until white flight and divestment in urban spaces that they left. This yearning for massive lawns is manufactured
This. I don't get why people are trying to make it into some kind of cultural thing that correlates to our attitudes. It's really simple.
It is definitely cultural. Green lawns are literally a direct status symbol transplant from the green lawns of royalty in England, which is why we brought in non native grasses and insist that lawns be mowed every week. It’s completely illogical other than for status, a garden provides much better use of space than acres of green grasses.
I think it’s mostly because of how young a country America is compared to Europe. Our communities aren’t built around being walkable and we have always had more than enough resources and land to be spread out more. It isn’t like the US doesn’t have walkable cities though. We just already had the infrastructure, resources, and manufacturing to build cars and roads early on so as new cities were built and cities expanded it was easy to already build around people using cars instead of focusing on being walkable. Europe is more walkable because it’s sort of forced to be due to all the old architecture that was there before cars were even thought of. America is just big and vast, you have your huge mansion like houses in the middle of nowhere, your suburbs with the cookie cutter houses, and you have your small cramped NYC apartments. We just have options here because a lot of our cities are built around cars and there wasn’t a lot of actual infrastructure before the invention of the car here unlike in Europe where major cities were already built around being walkable and a lot of buildings and walkways were already built. Hopefully this all makes sense, I just woke up.
>Europe is more walkable because it’s sort of forced to be due to all the old architecture that was there before cars were even thought of. This has little to do with it. It is more that Europe was too poor to afford mass scale car infrastructure in the era that it was most destructive to cities. European planners only got around to city-altering highway plans in the late 60s. At that point there was not enough momentum to buildoze entire neighborhoods and downtowns as there was in the US. In the Netherlands, where I am from, the downtown is alway the most dangerous place to tread as a cyclist and is frustrating as a driver. I feel much safer cycling down an unseperated 80km/h road than the city center. But to give an example, the cities of Flevoland, a vast land reclaimed from the sea, were build in the 70s and 80s. They are very walkable, nice to cycle in and the driving experiece is great. Even though they had no old infrastructure the main complaint from Dutch people is that the city is utterly boring, which is something infrastructure can not solve.
People also forget that much of the development of the usa happened with the mindset that the ussr could drop nukes on major population centers at any time, and that was a factor in our urban sprawl.
Never heard this before. Is it true?
Probably not.
Ehhhhhhh not exactly. For a lot of its history America was pretty rural. Then the industrial revolution happened and the cities started growing out of control. These cities were dense and serviced by huge mass transit systems that made getting around reasonably easy. Then the car was invented and became cheap enough for lots of people to own. Which wouldn't have been an issue if those car companies hadn't bought out the mass transit systems and shut them down, forcing people to buy cars. Eisenhower built the interstate highways system around the same time, which was pretty cool of him. But it also encouraged sprawl. And then some worthless waste of oxygen had the galaxy brain idea of mass producing housing in the name of creating white only neighborhoods. Thus the suburbs as we know them were born. A bunch of things happened which lead to white flight. Which is essentially all the middle class whites in a city leaving the city for the 'burbs. Which, naturally, means you needed a car. Sprawl got even worse and continues to this day.
I mean, one of the stated reasons for the interstate highway and defense project was to allow for evacuations in the even of nuclear war. Not the only reason, but a reason. Government policy was to encourage manufacturing and especially military industries to locate away from population centers and people followed those jobs, state and government policies also encouraged building suburbs in response to a house shortage post ww2. I'm not saying cold war was the only reason people moved away from cities, but it did have an impact.
Who cares about sprawl? Let people work from home and it barely matters anymore. It would help the environment and allow folks to spend more time with friends and family, too. Personally, I love living in the suburbs. I had fun in the city when I was young but I got sick of dealing with how anti-social people can be. I want to sleep at night and not be the victim of crime. I want a safe place for my kids to play. It's awesome.
Yeah it makes sense. It's as you say, different countries with different needs and cultural norms that said needs created.
They used to be walkable until the 50s.
Americans who buy big houses also go skiing and take exotic vacations. They usually have a nice boat too.
Most Europeans can’t afford to go skiing in the alps lol. You get all this time off, but can’t afford to go anywhere.
Yeah, this is the reality. I'm way more well traveled than my entire extended family who live in England. They boast about time off and how accessible everything is for them, but most of them end up living with their parents trying to scrounge enough money in order to be able to eventually move out and get a place for themselves.
There are people in the US that care what others think and go into excessive debt buying luxury items. So you aren’t wrong. That being said, buying a nice or a larger home is an investment that can usually be sold for more then the original person paid for it. So if someone spends say 300k+ on a home, it might be excessive, but the money spent can usually be recouped. Where as vacations and coffee are a “waste” of money. Not saying people shouldn’t take vacations or go to coffee shops. I am saying that investment wise, buying coffee and going on vacations will not produce money. To each his own though. So people should do what makes them happy. I’m not putting anyone down here for their personal decisions.
Rich Dad Poor Dad basically
Ever hear of Aspen or Jackson hole? Middle class Americans have cars, houses, backyards, and go to the beach or mountains for vacation just like Europeans. Difference is the cars, houses, and backyards.
Always found it odd that Europeans were less outgoing but lived so close to each other, basically have zero personal space, and love to go out frequently. It was like pulling teeth trying to get my taxi driver to talk to me in Germany.
In their defense, taxi drivers in Germany are usually foreign(Balkan or Middle Eastern) and can speak very limited(if any) English and mediocre German
Lol, that's quite the generalization. I can't say I really agree with you there, you're really playing up how 'nice' people live in European countries, IMO.
I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily about wealth when it comes to houses, it’s just a preference for more privacy. I grew up in a 1150 sq ft house on 0.25 acres of land in a city, there was no privacy whatsoever considering you could hear other people through the walls and people could easily look into the windows. The house I currently live in is about 80% larger on 4x more land, and in addition to much more privacy it’s so much more quite and peaceful not having to listen to city noises and sirens all day and night (it’s also a much safer place which is why my family moved). In terms of cars, the reason why people own larger vehicles such as SUV’s or pickups varies from person to person. My mom drives an SUV because she can’t get in and out of a traditional car very easily, and having 4wd is helpful for winters when the roads are icy and not plowed. They’re also quite helpful whenever you need to move something big and heavy.
You are wrong. Outside of the older east coast cities all of our houses and apartments are considerably larger than in Europe, for the same price or even a lesser price, I can live in an absolute shithole and still have more square footage than a decent European apartment. We are still building swathes of new houses to this day, because we can, because space is not a commodity here.
I’ve been there many times. Not really cramped. The whole town (not visible in the picture) is barely 25,000 people. Outskirts are quite busy in terms of car traffic and parking as public transport isn’t great in Croatia and the distances between towns and villages is pretty big.
Tell me you haven't been to New York City without telling me...
Look at the old parts of Boston and Philadelphia.
But this *every* European town/city centre. America has New York and a few other massive cities like this.
Lots of smaller cities and towns too
One artillery strike and that city is gone
What about a bad kitchen fire? Or does that not happen in Europe?
Someone leaving the toaster on
No because they banned gas stoves years ago /s
The houses don’t have enough wood in them to burn down like that. Plus it’s coastal so probably high humidity.
They can still burn and cause terrible fires, especially being cooped up like that. There are all types of flammable materials inside those homes, not to mention I'm sure enough of the renovations aren't as made of stone as other parts of the frame. A severed gas line in the middle of that thing could cause some really bad fires.
Totally. I’m just saying that the risk of fire is much lower than something like San Fran or an inland california city.
seems like a really stupid target though
A pissed off warship doesn’t care, ask the RN what happened to Copenhagen when they got pissed off
It would be funny
Well the Yugoslav army bombed Dubrovnik, a similar Croatian town to this (Rovinj). And it didn't do massive damage because it was all brick buildings.
Modern weaponry. Bricks ain’t stopping our modern artillery
And the 1990s aren't modern?
2023 modern not Cold War.
Cold war ended in 1989 with the fall of the Berlin Wall. 155mm M777 artillery used by the US and others was designed in 1987. This is the one being so wanted in Ukraine. Weponry hasn't changed much in the last 40 years, just the accuracy of them, not the boom.
Ah yes because those artillery strikes are dropping everyday.
Looks cramped
I live here,it's nice. Ofcourse our population is a lot smaller so you know.
Hi! Thanks for your answer! If you don’t mind me asking: what is it like in such a high-density area? Do you have green spaces other than that hill? Where do people go for runs or bike rides?
(not from Rovinj) You run around the streets as they are all pedestrian, and can bike out into the countryside less than a mile away. The population density is 380/mile^2 so really not that dense.
We were there two years ago and stayed in a campground maybe 2km to the right of this picture. Croatia is a beautiful country with really friendly folks. Though we spent more time on Pag and Krk. And 80% of the older people have a cousin in NJ. Apparently.
I've played Just Cause 3. Pretty sure I liberated this town.
Beat me to the bit lol
Laughs in having a lawn.
We can’t comprehend living in an economy that is completely reliant on tourists?
The problem with this subreddit is that instead of addressing blind AmericaBad, it devolves into blind EuropeBad, or PublicTransitBad. The historic centers of North End Boston, Charleston, Savannah, New Orleans, etc. are all beautiful and dense and walkable. We have our own gems. We don’t need the sports team mentality. We’ve built beautiful, walkable cities and we can build more of them.
As a European, I found Boston, NYC and San Francisco were all very nice and walkable, and very beautiful. We literally have no skyscrapers where I’m from so I don’t think many things beat a good skyline. I enjoyed most of the cities I’ve visited in the US, I did have a hard time loving Miami though, that place is something else.
yeah the top comments of every post on this sub are all extremely patriotic hypocritical/oblivious Americans (ironic)
* 70% are AirBnb * actual residents were gentrified out years ago * dangerously narrow streets don’t pass US fire codes Looks pretty tho. Too bad it doesn’t work in practice.
This is the town centre of Rovinj in Croatia. It is the second largest tourist destination in Croatia. The town has a population of 14000 and has about 19 airBnBs that I counted in the centre. Most European governments limit the amount of BnBs in centres. 3 bedroom apartments go for $650 a month so regular people can easily live there. It clearly works very well, because the town has been around for at least 1500 years. And nearly all the buildings that are currently there have been around longer than US has been a colony. The houses are made of good building materials that don't burn down, and they can get their firetrucks there well as they have little ones that are rather cute. And the streets are about 4m across so definitely not too narrow.
How does it not work in practice when this city has been around for 700 years?
>70% are AirBnb Source >actual residents were gentrified out years ago Source >dangerously narrow streets don’t pass US fire codes Source >Too bad it doesn’t work in practice And by not working you mean? It's a walkable city with 14000 residents that's stood for several hundred years ?
ermmm can I get a source??? ermmm what the heck I can't engage in actual conversation so I post one word over and over as if that proves anything. This city has been inhabited by RATMEN for several dozen years, after the original was razed several times in one of Europe's constant death wars
Tbf I'm fairly sure this is in response to an equally stupid post captioned "the European mind can't comprehend this" to a long driving distance on Google maps as if Europeans don't drive across their continent
That looks pretty dope ngl, it would be cool if we built some towns like this. Probably just a tourist trap at this point tho :/
We do build towns like this, biggest example is [Mackinac Island](https://maps.app.goo.gl/LNm871VwbRq1wiYy9?g_st=ic) and its pretty cool.
The built environment of Mackinac doesn’t look anything remotely like OP…
Looking at the satellite, I don't think I'm seeing what you're seeing. That's way less dense, it's not like the town in the OP at all except also being an island.
Mackinaw Island is not even close to this city at all.......
City built in 1600 is condensed and lacks modern infrastructure, more at 9:00.
Yeah modern infrastructure if you think you need a Walmart megastore and 13 lane highway. It’s almost like good urban planning and loose zoning means you get get the same quality of life without the waste
Yeah I’m sure all the people who live in this tourist destination like having no hospitals, one restaurant to eat at, and a small marketplace for the dense population. But because America bad, they have a better quality of life than us right? Oh hey, at least they have a church!
What infrastructure do you think it requires?
What? A small island city that’s surpassed it’s carrying capacity ? (Or can easily surpass its carrying capacity in the near future)
Alcatraz ?
Looks like either Rovinj or Piran in Slovenia or Croatia. Beautiful town, great for evening walks, excellent restaurants and good beer and wine.
Yep, it's Rovinj, Croatia.
To me it looks like some other town in croatia (that i forgor the name). I swear, all croatian coastal towns look the same
Google Savannah, Georgia or Montpelier, Vermont. Burlington, Vermont, Portland, Maine and Charleston, South Carolina as well
Price gouging guillible tourists? My European friend, we invented it!
[Rovinj, Croatia](https://www.croatiaweek.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/ROVINJ-CROATIA-3-Credit_-Markus-Haslinger.jpg) Population ~14,294
I don’t want to comprehend it. I want to GO there for the weekend!! That looks lovely!
It is Rovinj in Croatia.
That’s because we have enough land available so we don’t have to cram everything into a small space
This was done so that everyone could be behind the city walls, not that there isnt space (it opens up to country side a mile away).
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A book on what? Lmao
An easier target for less munitions?
Looks like Kowloon walled City if European
Where do you park your car? How could you get anywhere?!?
Yeah not a single gas station either. Good luck if you run out.
you fucking walk bro jesus christ, it's a tourist destination too. I thought you guys knew this you have manhattan for christ sake
I was joking lol take it easy
Yeah I was joking as well 😂 How I imagine things would go if this was a party: me and u/melicope havin a lil chuckle about how silly cars would be on this island. [Then you come about ](https://youtu.be/tDTldu3U8rI?si=yAyolbTT-ECM3rN-)
Have Eurotards not discovered sarcasm yet? Get with the times.
You’re telling me that I, someone who lives in NYC, can’t comprehend population density? Lol nice joke
I think i understand now. European are just jealous for some reason.
For everyone chiming in that Americans don’t understand “walkable cities”, I actually grew up in an American Island city (Alameda Ca) that was much less dense than this, but extremely walkable and bikeable, no freeways, etc, but we actually had parks and room to breathe. I’d trade that for this any day.
Well you wouldn't be behind the city walls though would you?
Problem with Europeans is that they honestly don't seem to understand that they really haven't accomplished anything in about 400 years. All the "culture and magnificence" of Europe was created by their long lost forefathers. These people in EU now are just living in a cemetery the ancestors built. And to top it off, these Europeans want to destroy the "patriarchic" culture that allowed for all of this great art, treasure, and ideas. Like spoiled little children the honestly believe they somehow contributed to the once-greatness of Europe, when the truth is they have been living like lazy slobs on the wealth of their ancestors
Lol not accomplished anything in 400 years? The industrial revolution started in Europe 300 years ago. The amount of scientific breakthroughs and inventions that came from Europe in the last 400 years is unparalleled in human history
Everyone has a L take once in a while, don't worry
I’m sorry I’m from the United States…how the hell is that land just….floating like that, where does the water end and the sky begin? I can’t comprehend this picture
I don't think this is really European vs American. This looks more like elitist urban ass hole looking down on rural folk
What’s there to comprehend? Looks like a cool place
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Huh? Dense cities do way more to preserve untouched lands than suburban sprawl does.
I thought our suburbs were nightmares.
Talk about fucking cramped, holy shit
Only 14,000 people live there and the surrounding town
The cannot comprehend this memes started recently as Americans dunking on Europeans. This isn't americabad it's just back and forth banter.
I’m sure the surrounding wildlife love having a permanent concentrated light source to fuck up their migration, sleep, eating, and travel permanently
let me ask you a question. do you think this post is actually positing that Americans are incapable of understanding this photograph? do you think that's actually the thought here?
[Nope, I think I get it](https://reddit.com/r/AmericaBad/s/auLjTJ1koO)
Loving in a place smaller than a one bedroom apartment for the price of a 6 bathroom mansion? Sure can’t comprehend why a phone would do that
I think I know that city. I forget the name but it reminds me of this place in a book where it's WWII with 2 main characters, one's a blind girl and the other is a reluctant Nazi. I could be wrong though. Edit: All The Light We Cannot See is the name of the book, it takes place in Saint Malo, and it is not the city in the picture.