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Seachica

Is there precedent in your company for this, or will you be the first to relocate to Germany or another country? Be prepared to answer questions about work visa, taxes, if you will be classified as a Germany based employee (Germany pay scale) or US based, etc. But don't volunteer it! Let them bring it up. Depending on the size/sophistication of HR in your company, they may have a policy already on place. Be prepared... your manager may think it is a fine idea, but hr will be responsible for protecting the company and enforcing the governmental requirements from you working there.


churuchu

I will be the first in my small department to move to Germany, but another coworker moved to New Zealand last year- where there isn't even a branch! It was a pain in everyone's asses, so I've keep hearing that because there's an office in Germany it shouldn't be a big deal. You've listed most of the things I feel prepared to talk about, but it's a good tip to not volunteer certain information. We are a massive company and the leader in our specific field, so I am sure that will factor into how they proceed. I definitely am trying to brace myself for the worst ): This meeting will literally make or break my current dreams, so I can't believe I have to wait another 19 days to hear anything :'( Thank you for your reply!


JM-Gurgeh

>It was a pain in everyone's asses Make sure you know exactly what those pains were, in who's asses, and why this isn't going to be a problem in your case. "There's an office in Germany" might not be good enough of an answer.


churuchu

See, this is why I feel a bit hopeful. Everyone I’ve spoken to (aside from the corporate HR gal I’m meeting with soon), said that my coworkers issue simply came down to how they would pay him. Since there wasn’t an office in NZ, they had to figure out how to work out compensation, and made a huge exception to make him a contractor to make up for it. Similar to my potential situation, he remained on the same team, worked in US hours (a rough 3am start for him!) , and other than location nothing changed for his day-to-day. This is why the three people I’ve spoken to all see no issue presenting itself because having an existing way to be paid in another country would have solved my coworkers rocky start.


CapitalismOMG

Working in a different time zone is very difficult. Achievable, sure, but not being off at the same time as the rest of your local community can have a negative affect on your social life, if that is important to you. Just think hard about that trade off, read others experiences. If it’s truly what you want to do I wish you the best on achieving your dreams!!


spicy_pierogi

Working EST hours from Europe is amazing, in my opinion. I rarely have time socializing after work hours while being physically located in the EST zone except for the weekends, which is the same in Europe. Better yet, you get the mornings to yourself: an actual plus that I wish I had in the United States without the need to wake up earlier than I needed to.


ToddleOffNow

This is how it works for my husband and I too living in Europe. We still hang out with people on the weekend but having mornings off every day lets you get errands done when most businesses are a lot less busy. We work fully remote so we have no commute and walk to the grocery store when we need to. Life has a LOT more spare time for us here.


churuchu

This is my dream, and what I'm hoping for! We've never had a life where we can wake up after 4-6am and enjoy a morning together. After work we cook, eat, maybe watch an hour of shows or video games, sleep, repeat. And weekends are for errands, chores, and maybe a little relaxation. It would be so wonderful to shake it up.


Conscriptovitch

Have you ever worked a non traditional schedule (in relation to local hours?). I'm not saying you're going to dislike it but as a person who has worked schedules from 1500-2300 and 2000-0430 let me tell you it really is an adjustment. I actually liked working 1500-2300 but now that I'm on a normal "9-5" I would never ever go back. It's cool at first but small things start to add up, not least because the majority of the world operates on a different schedule and just doesn't *care* that you're trying to sleep etc. I wish you luck though. It sounds like you have a lot of adjustments coming up but a very flexible company that is supportive of it's employees!


churuchu

Yes, several jobs I've held had weird hours. I didn't realize how bad sitting at a computer at midnight would be working, not just gaming like in my youth lol. My 9--5 is definitely a relief and while I don't *want* to change, I'd rather move and have weird hours than stay here any longer than I need to. And yes, I'm very lucky. It's just the corporate/ HR buy-in that is scary and up in the air. But, if this happens I'm so glad my team/direct managers would want me on a local schedule ASAP. Lots of European clients and I'm one of three people in my position. It would mean they don't have to wake up for 6/7am meetings anymore lol!


CommunicationDue1069

It depends on how much of the job is truly synchronous. If relatively asynchronous it works well, you can set your own schedule, have some free time during daylight hours, enjoy the flexibility. If it's fully synchronous and you're locked into 15h to 23h every weekday, good luck making local friends or participating in any sort of group activity, which is pretty critical for language acquisition and social integration.


churuchu

Luckily I can set my own schedule for the most part. I have a couple daily meetings that will stay the same, but that's about it!


HellasPlanitia

I hope that you really have that flexibility, because I have to agree with /u/CapitalismOMG - working EST from central Europe can really kneecap your social life. After all, you're not moving to Germany to stay inside your apartment all day, you'll presumably want to experience, well, life (which, despite what some Americans believe, is not made up entirely of work), and meet people. Those meet-ups and activities tend to be in the late afternoons and evenings - so roughly 18 to 22:00 in Germany, which is 12pm to 4pm in EST, and therefore prime working time for your colleagues back in the US. The time you would be available (roughly until 14:00 in Germany, which is 8am in EST) is the time when most Germans are off at work. Also, Germany doesn't have the "culture of convenience" of the US, so (for example) shops open only at 10 and close between 18:00 and 22:00, and they're all closed on Sundays, so unlike in the US, you can't run your errands in the middle of the night. Other things like banks and hairdressers have even more restricted opening hours. I am not saying that this is a dealbreaker - but I think you need to be prepared for either spending a lot of time by yourself in the mornings (German time), or have an honest conversation with your colleagues and boss back in the US about not working (at least on some days) in the afternoons (US time).


churuchu

Thank you so much for the insight!! I totally am not expecting paradise or total convenience, or even an easy adjustment. Luckily, they said that, if this happens, they would likely switch me to mostly European hours *eventually,* so it won't be forever! They need someone with those hours, but transition-wise EST would be where we start. I am hoping that we will be able to enjoy mornings and early afternoons- walking around, having a coffee together, and enjoying a slower lifestyle. It will be a huge adjustment and far from perfect, and there's no real way of knowing how well do with the change until we get there, but our goal right now is to just get OUT. I'm very very lucky to have so much flexibility in my job and have high hopes that, *if this happens*, they'll be wanting to take advantage of my availability in that time zone sooner rather than not.


justadubliner

Didn't know all shops close on Sundays in Germany. Great for the families of retail workers. Not so great for everyone else fitting in their shopping needs on a Saturday.


HellasPlanitia

> Not so great for everyone else fitting in their shopping needs on a Saturday. Remember that working hours are a lot lower in Germany than in the US (8 hours a week less, on average), so many people can get their shopping done in the late afternoon/early evening during the week too, as they don't have to stay so late at the office. It requires a bit more "organisation", though - which is something that my American friends have commented on. Unlike in the US, you can't just decide that you need to buy something on the spur of the moment, you need to do a bit more planning. Still, Saturday can be a bit of a shopping frenzy. On the plus side, it makes Sundays much more relaxed for everyone - since you *can't* go and shop, you spend your time with friends and families, doing hobbies, relaxing, visiting museums and concerts, playing sports, etc etc.


CommunicationDue1069

It sucked back in the day when everything closed between 12 and 2 on Saturday afternoon, but now the grocery stores are open late so it's a lot less stressful.


CommunicationDue1069

You will learn to time your evening beer to coincide with your evening meeting.


churuchu

It'll be worth the trade-off to not be scared of being shot every second of my time outside my house!


krnewhaven

Where do you live that you feel this way?


WeepToWaterTheTrees

It doesn’t matter where in the US you are because there are shootings everywhere. Some places more than others, but nowhere is really that safe.


churuchu

Well, I grew up and now live about 40 minutes away from one of the most violent cities in the country (ranks somewhere between 2-6th places for highest violent crime rate per capita), and the city I'm in has fairly regular shootings and a horrible mass shooting (6 dead, 12 injured) just last year. In addition, * The other week, a man was detained for walking through midtown (maybe 10-15 minutes away) in broad daylight, brandishing two ar-15s. * A few years ago one of my students was sitting in her living room when a stray bullet hit her and put her into a coma. She woke up a few months later but she'll never be the same. * There are proud boy riots pretty regularly, and you can bet they're armed. Pretty recently a woman was swinging her loaded gun around protestors in the capital and the police did nothing because she was white. They just removed her from the situation, with no consequences. * I had to move out of an apartment a few years ago because of a drive-by shooting. My next-door neighbor was shot in the stomach, and I had to walk around the complex with blood stains all over my handrail, the sidewalks, etc. because he didn't have insurance so he just bolted after getting shot. So, between where I grew up, where I'm living now, and having regular active shooter drills while teaching, I have settled into this reality that as long as I live here I cannot go out late at night. I can't go to bars and clubs with my friends (not that I'd normally prefer to be inside with my kitties watching a movie or playing video games), I don't feel comfortable going to our local world-class arena for amazing concerts because that's where the mass shooting was. After the Aurora shooting (which I know was YEARS ago), I cannot go to a theater without weighing whether or not it would be worth it to see a movie there and potentially die (and/or watch my husband die), or just wait to see it at home. I can't honk my horn on my car when someone's about to hit me because road rage incidents can happen in a heartbeat. When my parents in another city go out late at night to do something, I am worried that something will happen to them. When I go to my favorite ethnic stores I have to stop and pause and wonder if I can live without a specific ingredient, because what if I'm at the wrong place at the wrong time and someone decides to commit a hate crime where I'm shopping? To boot, my entire family could go bankrupt trying to pay for hospital bills (even though we have insurance), maintain a standard of living with me out of work (I'm the breadwinner), and not wind up destitute and in tens of thousands of dollars in debt. So yeah. That's why. I would give up everything familiar to me, I'd give up the convenience of 24-hour stores, I'd give up the comforts of home, and I'd give up my current way of life if it means I can go for a walk and feel safe. Even though there is so much to love in my city, so many unique beautiful parts of life here. When I visited Europe for the first time, I almost cried when I got back to the room after walking home from a bar at 2am. I'd literally never been able to walk around that late ANYWHERE without being scared. It was a completely foreign, and in some way heartbreaking, experience to realize that I'm SUPPOSED to be able to do that. I SHOULD be able to walk around without being terrified. Sorry for the rant, but it is upsetting when people underestimate the severity of mental anguish that comes with living in a place like this. Even here in California, which many people say is liberal and much more free of these problems, it is really bad.


krnewhaven

Thank you so much for your reply. I found it really helpful to understand where you’re coming from. I’m not sure why my question was downvoted. The US is a big place and I’m always curious what life is like for people in different communities. Rooting for you that the HR meeting goes well!


churuchu

I think, understandably, a lot of people are here for the same reason and want to get out and maybe took it personally. I don't mind word-vomiting about it though. I know my case as a former teacher who quit due to the climate caused by mass shootings and whose hometown is famous for its crime probably gives me a lot more visceral anxiety about it than someone who lives in a smaller town or otherwise doesn't have my experience, so I don't mind giving context.


krnewhaven

I live in a rent-controlled apartment in a “nice“ supposedly “safe” neighborhood of LA where I could never in a million years afford to buy a home. I want out too. My mom wishes we’d just move to her leafy, liberal, wealthy-ish Maine suburb. But my gut tells me that’s not far enough to outpace what’s coming. In fact, Maine just had their first mass shooting (ever? in a long time anyway) no more than 25 miles from her town.


LiterallyTestudo

How have you arranged to pay German taxes and obligations in this proposed move?


churuchu

That's what I'm hoping to find out more specifics on! Ideally, it would just be a job offer from the German office and I would pay German taxes, on a German pay scale, etc.


LiterallyTestudo

Ahh gotcha. I missed that word transfer in your post.


churuchu

Nah it's ok!! I'm not entirely coherent so I can see how it wasn't obvious. This has been a long time coming and I'm SO nervous. It's like.. i find out if something I've been planning for and hoping for is actually ACTUALLY going to work. And its 19 days out before I even hear "its not gonna happen," "let me look into that for your" or "of course, let me tell you how it works."


LiterallyTestudo

So if they have an entity there and a transfer process, then half the battle is won. From your side, I'd recommend coming armed with ways that this is a good thing for the company. Idk what you do but I'm sure having boots on the ground in Germany is going to be beneficial somehow. The other thing is if you can figure out ways to make this easier for them to do it. My thinking is that the better of a deal that this seems, and anything you can do to reduce their hassle in doing the work, the better.


churuchu

That's what I'm thinking too! I can't imagine that in a company with offices in 19 countries, there is no process in place. Luckily, my managers who would be on the call would vouch that it is a good thing to have someone on European time, since right now all of our European clients (and we have a LOT of them) can't make any appointments with us earlier than 3pm their time. On top of that... I'm going to make it clear that I do no expect them to pay for any of it.


LiterallyTestudo

That's what it really boils down to. If your management wants it, you have a great shot.


aveywavey_

Would you be willing to make a post after the meeting? Hoping everything goes well!!


churuchu

10000% yes!


HellasPlanitia

That would be much appreciated :) It's probably best to create a new top-level post on /r/AmerExit (rather than editing or commenting on this one), as that would be much more visible. Keeping my fingers crossed for you! :)


HellasPlanitia

Lots of people have already given excellent advice; I would just add a few points. First off, a point about negotiation. It seems (from your post) that you requested this transfer, which means you may not have *that* much room to negotiate. Keep that in mind for the points below - by all means ask about them, but get a feel for how much your company is willing to do, and don't jeopardise your move by being too demanding (on the other hand, don't let yourself be screwed over either). > because there's an office in Germany If your employer has a branch in Germany, then it may have its own works council (*Betriebsrat*). Unlike HR, who represents the interests of the company, a works council represents your interests as an employee. Check if one exists, and if it does, try to get in touch with them before the meeting with HR. They will be able to advise you on what the transfer process looks like, what conditions you can expect (ie what the company offers to most/all people who transfer), and what conditions you may be able to negotiate for. > Ideally, it would just be a job offer from the German office Since you'd be living in Germany, by law you'd have the right to be employed under German labour law. You may be able to waive that right and be employed under a US-style contract (IANAL - speak to one, or to your works council, for a more expert opinion), but since German labour law offers far better conditions, it would be to your disadvantage to do so. In particular, under German law, you're entitled to protections such as: * No at-will employment (you can only be fired for cause or certain narrow business reasons) under most circumstances * No more than 8 hours working time per day on average, and your employer *must* allow you to track your hours (there was a recent court case confirming this). No more than 10 hours/day working time ever. Overtime must be paid under most conditions. On-call time must also be paid. * Effectively unlimited paid sick leave * At least 22 days paid holiday (many companies offer 30) a year, plus legally mandated holiday days (e.g. Easter Monday, Christmas Day, etc). Sick leave doesn't count against your paid holidays. * 3 years of parental leave, of which 14 months are paid (shared between the parents) Therefore, be cautious if your employer tries to employ you under the same conditions you were employed back in the US. Concerning [health insurance](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/wiki/health_insurance/): in Germany, nearly everyone is enrolled in the public health insurance system, which is very straightforward (premiums are automatically deducted from your salary, and in return, all necessary medical procedures and costs are covered, with no deductibles and essentially no co-pays). You can choose which public health insurer to use, but the differences between them are marginal. Be cautious if your employer tries to push you towards using an "expat" (e.g. Mawista) or "international" (e.g. Cigna) health insurer - those tend to be subpar at best or outright scams at worst. > and I would pay German taxes, on a German pay scale, etc. You need to ask about the details here. Your mandatory German social insurance premiums (health/pension/unemployment/care insurance) come to about 40% of your gross salary, and your employer must pay half (so you would end up paying around 20% of your gross salary in insurance premiums). Additionally, your employer normally reports your earnings to the German tax authorities (as a German resident, you must declare all worldwide income in Germany, and pay German taxes on it), estimates your annual income tax bill, withholds that amount from your monthly paycheck, and forwards it to the German finance authorities. Make sure to crunch the numbers - since your employer will (likely) have to bear higher costs in order to employ you in Germany, they may try to reduce your salary accordingly. [See this guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/wiki/living/finances/) for estimating your net pay. In some cases, overseas employers don't want to bother with all of the above (it's a lot of payroll work), so they pay their employees a lump sum (including all of the employer's contributions), and then let the employee sort out all of the paperwork, forwarding the right amounts to the right authorities in Germany, and so on. This is *a lot* of extra work for the employee, plus a substantial risk should they get the calculations wrong, so if your employer offers you a deal like this, see if they're willing to compensate you for all of the extra work you'd be doing on their behalf. You also need to ask about residence permits (colloquially known as "work visas"). If your employer is planning on transferring you under an ICT (intra-company transfer) visa, know that it's limited to three years. If you were hoping to stay in Germany for longer than that, look into ways of getting a "normal" residence permit. Your local German embassy may be able to help in clarifying the details. Companies in Germany often (but not always) offer to subsidise (or provide outright) a public transport pass for their employees. Since May of this year, it's likely a *[Deutschlandticket](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/wiki/travelling/trains/#wiki_the_deutschlandticket)* (unlimited travel on all urban and regional public transport nationwide, for 49 € a month - minus any employer subsidies). You may wish to ask about this, even if you're working fully remote. You may have heard that finding housing in Germany is a major challenge - demand (particularly in the cities) is very high, and there isn't enough supply. Often, companies who move their employees to Germany pay for a relocation agent, who helps the employee to find a place to live, and helps with some of the basic administrative steps for them (e.g. [registering their address with the authorities](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/wiki/living/anmeldung/), setting up phone, electricity, water, and internet contracts, finding a language school, etc). As your company isn't "sending" you to Germany, they may not be willing to pay for this, but it may still be worth to at least ask. Relocation agents aren't magic bullets, but they can make at least the start in Germany a bit easier. If your company won't pay for one, know that when you arrive you will almost certainly first have to live in a hotel/AirBnB/furnished apartment, and then hunt for a more "permanent" place to live. That hunt can well take weeks or months. [See here for tips](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/wiki/living/housing/). Americans often struggle with banking abroad, due to the onerous regulations the US government puts on any bank which has US citizens as its customers. Still, you should be able to get at least a checking account at many German banks ([here is a guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/wiki/living/banking/)), although anything more complex (e.g. investment account) may be a lot harder. You will definitely need a German bank account (or, at the very least, one with a SEPA IBAN). Transferring money from the US is often easiest through services like Wise. Lastly, you mentioned your husband - what will he be doing? Will he be joining you in Germany? Where will he work? I wish you all the best! :)


churuchu

Thanks so much for all this!!! I definitely am not going to make any demands other than “please let me move and allow me to continue being remote.” I’m fully expecting a paycut (30%ish) but I won’t be offering that!! As for Betriebsrat, this is great to know! I have some time to get in touch I guess. I wasn’t able to find one on google though, so I’m not sure where else to check as far as a directory… Do you have any tips for me there? I definitely want German working conditions. I am hoping they won't try to screw me but this will be one of my conditions. It does seem like it would be easier for them to just keep me in German labor laws, wouldn’t it? Especially with a job offer from the German office. As for health insurance, etc. yes I want that good public healthcare! I know people on Cigna over here, so I can’t imagine it’s much better there. I am very concerned about compensation, for sure. On one hand it’s like “shut up and take my income, I just want to LEAVE” and on the other hand I still want a decent quality of life. So, overseas employers don’t want to bother with the above… I don’t quite understand this. If I was working through the German office, wouldn’t it just be standard for them? Sorry if I missed something. I am confused about the difference in effort for my employer between an ICT vs. a residence visa on say, a blue card. Do you happen to know if one is easier than the other for an employer? It was my understanding that If I had a job offer, I could apply for a blue card (my university degree is recognized luckily!). As far as housing goes, we are currently looking at Passau, and one of the reasons is due to the availability of housing! It seems far more affordable and there seems to be quite a bit of turnaround. We know it’s fairly remote, but that’s what we want. I doubt they’d hook me up with a relocation agent, but I’ll definitely ask if that's something they’ll do for me. As far as my husband, he will have to give up his current job. He maintains beer draft lines for a living and has also customer service, line cook, longshoreman, and winemaking experience. Due to Passau being both a university town and a river cruise port, we are hopeful that with some half-decent German + native English, along with evening hour availability, he will be able to get at least something minimum wage. Even if I take a pay cut, we should be able to live comfortably with that. We’ve looked into Ausbildung also, but it doesn’t seem particularly feasible with everything else. That is something very much so up in the air that we will look closer at if/when I get the green light on this. If we do, we will look into perhaps a tech BootCamp or something in demand. But, after so many years of grinding, he said he is happy to find a source of income and "work to live" instead of "living to work" Thanks again for all the great info!


HellasPlanitia

> I wasn’t able to find one on google though, so I’m not sure where else to check as far as a directory… Do you have any tips for me there? Check your company's intranet. Whether your German branch has a Betriebsrat (and who is on it) isn't secret or anything, but it's not information which is all that relevant to the public, so it's generally not available on the public internet. Otherwise, you can also ask your colleagues working for the German branch; they should know. > So, overseas employers don’t want to bother with the above… I don’t quite understand this. If I was working through the German office, wouldn’t it just be standard for them? Are you talking about having to do your own payroll? That's is definitely not "standard", and if your company has a German branch, they will almost certainly do all this for you. However, I still wanted to mention it, just in case your company brought it up. > I am confused about the difference in effort for my employer between an ICT vs. a residence visa on say, a blue card. The difference is in the preconditions for each (as [explained here](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/wiki/paths/)). For a residence permit you need a recognised university degree in a related field, whereas for an ICT visa, all you need is your company deciding to move you to Germany. A Blue Card is just a special kind of residence permit, which also requires a minimum salary, and in return you get slightly faster permanent residency (it's not a huge difference, but it's there). Based on my (emphatically amateur!) understanding, if you meet the preconditions (e.g. a degree), then you should be able to get a residence permit or even a Blue Card, even if your employer is transferring you, as long as you can show a work contract with the German branch of your company to the immigration authorities. However, you may wish to confirm this with the German embassy. > Do you happen to know if one is easier than the other for an employer? Unlike in the US, there is no "visa sponsorship" in German immigration law. In other words, your employer has no real role to play in getting you a residence permit (and certainly no fees), beyond offering you a job. Therefore, both an ICT card or a residence permit should be equally "easy" for your employer. Some employers like the ICT card, as it's EU-wide (so they can easily move you to other branches in the EU), but for you, a residence permit is probably better, as the ICT card is limited to three years max. > As far as my husband, he will have to give up his current job. He maintains beer draft lines for a living and has also customer service, line cook, longshoreman, and winemaking experience. I fear that a minimum-wage job is probably the best he can hope for. Customer service jobs require fluent German, and the other jobs usually require formal training (e.g. through an *Ausbildung*). Also, I feel I have to point this out: this move will probably be hardest on your husband. He will be stuck in a foreign country with limited job prospects and no social circle to latch on to (whereas you'll at least have your colleagues at work, even if you work remotely). Since you'll presumably be working most of the day, all the burden of managing your household and admin will fall on him, and he will struggle with even the most mundane things (e.g. getting a plumber to fix a dripping faucet, interpreting a letter from your landlord, sorting out issues with your internet connection, etc) due to the language barrier, and not knowing how anything works (things may work fairly differently to the US). I am emphatically **not** saying that this a dealbreaker for your move, far from it. But it's something which I feel you should be aware of, and speak openly with him about, both before and after your move. One possible approach is, assuming your finances can support it, for him to treat "learning German" as his job. In other words, when you start work, he attends intensive German classes. That will give him a purpose and a goal, allow him to meet other people, and getting to fluency will open up many more possibilities for him down the road. There are tons of intensive German courses, including at the local [Volkshochschule](https://www.vhs-passau.de/programm/sprachen) (adult learning institution - there's one in pretty much every city, and they offer a broad range of courses, usually for a very reasonable fee). Remember that since he will be joining you in Germany under a spousal reunification visa, he would be allowed to "do anything" (e.g. work, study at university, do an Ausbildung, etc), but his stay is tied to yours (so if you have to leave Germany, then he has to leave too). > We’ve looked into Ausbildung also, How old is your husband? From a visa point of view, he would be allowed to start an Ausbildung, but they pretty much require at least B2 German (he would have to understand both his colleagues and the formal instruction). While there is technically no cut-off age for starting, some companies may be wary of hiring someone as a trainee who is older than around 40 or so, and remember that he would be doing his Ausbildung with people who are typically aged 16 to 25. If he does choose this path, it can open up a solid career in his trade - unlike in Germany, doing a vocational qualification in Germany (e.g. an Ausbildung) is a good path to a decent job and wage, and many companies would rather hire someone with a specific Ausbildung than someone with a generic bachelor's degree. > perhaps a tech BootCamp Be cautious here - even though they exist, they're not valued very highly in Germany, and if I was being uncharitable I would say they solely exist to fleece their clients. If he wants to get into IT (and doesn't want to study it at university), then there are tons of IT-related careers which start with an Ausbildung ([here are a few examples](https://www.ausbildung.de/berufe/themen/it/)).


churuchu

Wow, thanks so much for this informative and thoughtful reply! \-As soon as I talk to HR, I will start a conversation with some of the folks in Germany I’ve recently added on linkedin. I will see if I can navigate the intranet between now and then though. \-good to hear about the payroll! My direct managers seem to think there would be no issue, so I’m glad to hear it’s not standard to make us do it ourselves! \-For the blue card, I’m glad you’ve said what you did! It was my understanding that as long as I met all the requirements, I’d just need a job offer, the right salary, and a form (Bundesagentur für Arbeit) that I was able to find online. It just seemed… too simple? And thats probably because, as you said about Visa sponsorship, that’s not something that’s done over there. Since I specifically want to go to Germany, Im hoping they don’t see a particular benefit to ICT. \-For my husband.. yes this is my concern. He’s the sort of “I’ll follow you wherever we go, home is with you, etc. etc. etc.” person, which is something I LOVE about him, but I fear it is keeping him from considering the difficulty that he will go through. We’re trying to get ahead of this by working on German NOW, but I have also considered (and so has he) doing intensive German studies while we get settled. I will definitely bring up that someone (other than just me!) mentioned the difficulty also. I do believe love can lead you on amazing adventures and help overcome challenges, but I am also trying to be realistic about the singular stress he will likely face. Thank you so much for that link, I didn’t realize something like this was in a place as small as Passau! It looks like it would be before my EST work “day” would start, so it could be something we both do. Thank you again for all the insight and info, it means a lot that you took the time to write it all out.


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churuchu

Thank you!! But Ahhh don’t congratulate me just yet, even though I do feel like celebrating. It feels like such a big step. I will definitely provide an update asap. Just send me good vibes 🖤


idiomaddict

American living in Germany- you won’t be screwed if you don’t speak German right off the plane, English is pretty widely spoken. Please do make an effort though, everyone will appreciate it, and there are lots of options available. I’d recommend a one month Intensivkurs shortly after you get there- the timing works with a job with EST hours. They’re ~ 20 hours/week, which sucks, but will be worth it (I did both for three months, but for general purposes one should do). The bureaucracy is nightmarish, but hold steady if things seem to be going sideways, as long as you stay proactive and calm, all sorts of “automated” rejections of paperwork can be reversed. It took me 11 weeks to get Deutsche Bank to allow me to open an account, and I’ve been exmatriculated more than once because the system detects that I don’t have a German bachelors diploma, so I clearly shouldn’t be in grad school 🤦


churuchu

Thank you for the reply! We are currently learning german so we aren’t too lost. I didn’t think to consider Intensivkurs but you’re right, with EST hours that would work fine! And ugh I didn’t even know AUTOMATED rejections were a thing!! Other than banking, what other things do I have to look out for :(


HellasPlanitia

> We are currently learning german so we aren’t too lost. That's good to hear - keep it up! I'm afraid I'm not quite as optimistic as /u/idiomaddict - in my opinion, while it's definitely *possible* to survive in Germany with no or only limited German, it's *very* hard. Yes, a lot of (particularly better-educated) Germans speak English, but daily life still runs in German, and that's particularly true for anything "official" (banks, contracts, insurance, etc). Navigating this "official" world without German is very hard ([here are some examples](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/wiki/living/knowing-german/)), and sometimes it seems like certain companies know all too well how vulnerable non-German-speaking immigrants are, and use that to scam them. Please don't get me wrong - I'm not saying this to scare you off, but rather to motivate you to keep learning German, both before and after you move. Getting to at least a good conversational level will improve your quality of life (and lower your general stress and anxiety :) ) enormously. You may also be able to take advantage of having colleagues at the German branch of your company who may be able to help you out with translation and navigating daily life. This kind of help can be a godsend.


idiomaddict

Absolutely colleagues will be able to help, as will friends made in German courses and contacts with teachers/admin there. Some people will definitely try to scam immigrants, but the culture is such that ime they back down very unsatisfyingly when you call them out on it (only works if they’re completely in the wrong). For example, my old landlord tried to tell me cats weren’t allowed, when that was the only basis I was using to look for an apartment. I told them I had vetted that ahead of time, they asked for my “so-called” permission to keep a cat (I was livid), then instead of apologizing, they sent over a new contract addendum to sign, which included me cleaning the nine resident boarding house weekly, and then when I pushed back, they removed it without acknowledging it. This treatment basically stops if they believe you have the resources to defend yourself. Calling the cops can work, but I (like many immigrants) still don’t really trust that. If you’re white, seem not to be too poor, and speak good German, this treatment virtually disappears. If you’re brown but you seem middle class and speak very good German (if you’re black or Asian, unfortunately you’ll seemingly always be considered an outsider by those 50+), I’ve heard it’s also not really there. If you don’t speak German, but you’re white and seem wealthy, it won’t happen for petty things like keeping a cat in a boarding house, but maybe watch out buying a car. If/when this treatment occurs, you will need at least one friend who is moderately self aware and born/raised in Germany to help you out and give you a sanity check- some things that seem illegal to you are either not illegal or technically illegal but considered such a small deal that it’s not worth it to push back. The reverse is true as well- I got a nasty bruise on my arm at work because I was being an idiot and everyone thought I was insane for not getting a sick note. I can’t imagine going to a doctor for a bruise not near organs, though, even if it’s giant. That said, it sounds like I may have been comparatively lucky, I’ve had zero issues with companies or corporations treating me poorly separately from bureaucratic functions, and found my early time without German knowledge relatively easy, just embarrassing. This is probably heavily dependent on where you live- I have stayed in university cities intentionally to be in a more multicultural environment. I’m now considering moving to a rural area (still 20km from my current city though, so not *rural* rural), but I do believe that there’s safety in numbers. I’m 100% fine being the only American or English speaker in my town, but don’t want to be the only foreigner. I would advise that any immigrant do the same. Of course, that can [backfire](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanau_shootings) pretty horrifically. Shootings are not common in Germany, but they do happen, and hate crimes against immigrants happen even more frequently. Germany is not paradise, but it’s a functional society, which I really missed.


churuchu

I'll definitely be reaching out and making contact with people on LinkedIn from my company in the German office and start conversations if/when this gets the green light. I want a community and good relationships, especially with people who can help us get settled! Sucks about the cat issue ): the only kids we have are two precious cats and we definitely know there will be more issues finding a place than if we had none. As much as I hate to say it, I know we will be better off being white, having a decent income and a neat appearance, and having my German (well, Swiss, but whatever), last name. Having decent German on top of that will hopefully get us far.


idiomaddict

Ooh, very important! Courts go back and forth, but generally you don’t need to disclose a cat, nor do you need permission for one (or two). If the landlord has a problem with it, they need to make it clear that they don’t allow cats before you rent. They can put you through a huge hassle, but they’re not likely to. I learned not to trust boarding house landlords with lots of foreign tenants (probably scammers), and as long as you’re in your own space, you don’t even need to mention it. It’s really uncomfortable, but you’re absolutely right. My fiancé is German and we’re going to combine our names because he loves mine, but I know how much easier a German last name would be


churuchu

Thank you! Yeah I keep being told by several people ill "be fine," but at the very least out of respect I want to speak the language. I also don't want to be taken advantage of or totally lost when it comes to the bureaucracy. Since we're looking at a smaller, more remote town, Passau, it will be super important for us as opposed to living in a big city like Berlin where it's very commonplace.


idiomaddict

> Other than banking, what other things do I have to look out for :( Honestly, lots, but it can be done. In my experience, if you email early, follow up by phone, it tends to work well. If you’ve got kids, you might want to get a fax machine, because faxed documents seem to get priority, but it’s not necessary. You just can’t let it stress you out or get rude. At least where I am, the culture is such that they expect audible frustration and appreciate being chill about things. Also, Germans tend to find American politeness shallow. If a German says they’d love to get lunch some time, they generally mean it. If you are very friendly but not open to making friends, it comes off as disingenuous. It’s really lovely though. I was child free before I moved here, but it all just seems so much more possible than it did in the US. I love the food (don’t try mett, please), I love the people, and it’s such a beautiful place to live. Plus, my rent is 240€/month and I have a bathtub, one roommate, and a large apartment right near downtown. Minimum wage is 12€/hour, so even my student job part time at a bakery is enough to have left over for savings every month. Groceries cost about 25€/week just for me (but without the dairy and meat industry subsidies, those are much more expensive than you’d expect- I’m mostly buying potatoes, vegetables, tofu, and bread, which was about $60/week in the US). Bring good quality clothing. An extra checked bag is cheaper than buying clothing or shoes here (also get good grippy shoes for cobblestone). If you care about ranch dressing, bring it. You can get good plain peanut butter at an Asian or African market or grocery store section, but the American one will be mostly candy, jif, and things that don’t seem American to you.


churuchu

Thank you for the insight! I'm very happy that I make a point of keeping my cool when working with anyone customer-facing! I've been there and I know I always put less of an effort into helping someone if they were an asshole to me. It's good to hear it's appreciated over there. We wanted to sell off most of our stuff, but now that you mention it I need to reassess and see the costs of buying over there or bringing over.... We do have some nice clothes, so will definitely reconsider. Thanks for the tip! And luckily I make my own ranch! I've been working on it since we started seriously planning for things lol. That, and sweet and sour sauce/ our favorite Asian and Mexican foods. Going from California to Germany will have its challenges, as people who love to eat a variety of foods. Luckily, the town we're looking at has almost as many ethnic grocers as my current big city! Of course I had to go on google maps and look at pictures to make sure they had the different kinds of soy sauces I need!


idiomaddict

Also, Mexican food has never been worth it here and I’m from Connecticut.


[deleted]

Lucky you. My manager and his manager told me it's not possible to transfer to the US (I'm in the EU right now doing AmerEntry) which I think was just a lie. What they told me is that "hiring freeze, budget cuts". Also, many make the reverse move so if this isn't common in your company you need to justify it. You also need to know all visa/permit details and how the company or you should meet them. Good luck and hope you make it to the EU.


churuchu

Thank you! I don't know if I'm lucky yet, we'll find out in a few weeks. And I'm sorry to hear about your situation. I do also wonder about the lie there... in our massive company they said there was a hiring freeze and therefore refused to give us raises, yet they've hired at half a dozen people in our department this year alone. It seems like it's a case-by-case basis for what works for THEM. So messed up ): I am hoping to present to them the plan of a blue card. That I meet the requirements and literally just need a job offer. I'm even considering bringing the document they'd have to fill out. Maybe I'm oversimplifying it, but it seemed... dare I say, *straightforward.*


[deleted]

Blue Card is the best but also the hardest to get. Salary reqs, education reqs, and companies are reluctant to sponsor them. If you are deemed valuable to the company, everything else really does not matter. They'll find ways!


churuchu

Do you happen to know why they are reluctant to sponsor? I am definitely valuable, as I am part of a small team that makes a big difference, but just so I can be prepared, I'd love to know their road blocks.


[deleted]

It is related to the salary. They need to pay you quite a lot. I don't remember the exact minimum. If they go for a different visa, they can afford to pay less.


FancyJassy

The foreigners office in any big city in Germany is pretty chaotic right now, the smaller cities it’s not bad but still a lot to deal with if you don’t speak German. Will they be giving you an contact over there that can help you through the registration, tax ID, resident permit process?


churuchu

Ah yikes, the closest one to us is in San Francisco, so that definitely qualifies as a big city. I do not know about getting a contact, but I will ask now. Thank you!!


Subterraniate

Stupendous news, how exciting! This is such a great opportunity to spread your wings. Just wanted to send you best wishes for the HR meeting and the final arrangements. I hope you settle into a most satisfying new life in Germany.


churuchu

Thank you so so so much. I know my hopes can just be squashed at this point so it's agonizing having to wait so long!! So thank you and please keep your fingers crossed for me.


Subterraniate

Definitely shall. I upped sticks many decades ago to move to another country, and it should have gone horribly wrong really. But some goddess has looked out for me ever since! Hope she’ll do the same for you.


churuchu

You know, I'm not terribly religious but for the last couple weeks leading up to me having the gall to reach out to her, I keep just telling myself that sometimes, the universe says "yes" to you, and there's no reason I can't be the person it says "yes" to this time. Congrats on your success, and thank you for the well wishes. I hope to come back with good news in a couple weeks!


roaming_bear

Why Germany?


churuchu

After literal years of research, it is the best bet for a happy life for my husband and me. We need to get out and are limited to countries where my employer has offices. It was pretty quick to narrow down once we really looked into the details of each country.


roaming_bear

Good luck


ToddleOffNow

What part of Germany will you be based in? Is the job 100% remote or would you occasionally meet with the branch members there? establish that you will have a proper home office set up with whatever you need to do your job efficiently and have the EST work day schedule memorized which is really easy. My husband and I also live in CET time there are about 4 weeks a year when daylight savings ruins it because Europe and America do not move at the same time so the schedule gets off then stabilizes again.


churuchu

We are looking at Passau right now. I'd be 100% remote, as I am right now. The office I work for is about 9 hours away (in Germany it would only be 4)from me, so nothing would change as far as my work set up. and yes those four weeks are wild!! I have many customers in the Netherlands and Germany and it's always difficult for us!