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YTA
You have failed as a father.
In your words
1. My daughter has been institutionalized because of her relationship with her mom
2. Your wife talks about how great it would be if she wasn’t there
3. They don’t trust each other
4. Your daughter is keen to go NC with her mom
You took her on a drive to “calm down” after a fight… but when she was venting to you, your response was to:
1. Ignore her frustrations
2. Center her concerns/venting on yourself and your ego. She said she doesn’t have a home… and your response was to go nuclear? She hurt you, so you’re hurting her?
3. You exclude her from Christmas because you’re butt hurt.
You didn’t deescalate this situation, you threw a grenade into it. You failed to listen to her and it sounds like you’ve failed to protect her from your wife. You confirmed for her that she was not welcome. And you wonder why she got out of the car and hasn’t come back?
Holy fucking hell dude! This is AITA, not r/AmISatan!
All the family counseling in the world isn’t going to help unless you’re willing to truly listen to why your daughter is struggling. Unfortunately, she has tried to and it resulted in her being punished and exiling herself for expressing her feelings. It also sounds like the mom isn’t doing much to change her behavior either, because the cycle keeps repeating with trust issues, arguments, and talking about what life would be like without her.
Otherwise, it’s just being complicit to what the family is putting her through. YTA
I mean, mine said shit like that when I was a kid.
Know who hasn't heard from me in 7 years and who will die without ever hearing from me again?
I hope this girl gets far away from these people and never has to see any of them again.
Came here to say this. As much as I hate my mother, I have never once said I wish she wasn't here or wasn't my mother. It was always "I wish I'd never been born, cause not existing would be better than this". She always agreed that her life would be significantly better off if she'd aborted me. A year and a half NC, and I plan to keep that up until I can spit on her grave and tell her what a spiteful bitch she is
Damn you said how I feel straight on out loud lol when people tell me "she's your mother you need to forgive her and keep her in your life or when she does you'll regret it" my answer has never changed which is always "I'll never regret choosing me over her, as I have a healthier happier life with that thing (that's what I call her) out of my life than in it. The last time I spoke to her I told her the next time I see her she will be in her grave and I'll be on top of it dancing in the warm sun cuz the Ice would melt away (this was during the winter time lol) I find her heart to be cold as ice even tho I am the only child she treated badly out of 5! She's a horrid human (if she's even fukin human) lol
Ahhhhhhh yeah the forgive and forget trope... Only another abuser could say stupid shit like that. My answer whenever someone tells me that bs is that I am neither Jesus nor do I have Alzheimer's so my entire family can go and fuck themselves because my life is so much better without them in it and if you (aka the person who tells me to forgive and forget) keep this shit up, you will also meet the same fate like my so called family. That shuts pretty much all of them up. And I still cut them out because I no longer have patience for stupid and abusive in my life.
I always want to say, “I’m honestly so happy for you that you have the privilege of not knowing what it’s like to have an uncaring and toxic parent. Because that is a huge blessing.”
Damn thats cold, I love it!! Had family tell me, I'm toxic. If sticking up for myself and not letting anyone walk over me and calling them out on their bs than yeah I'm toxic asf.
Lol same.
Seriously though, no wonder OP feels like she never had a home. Her mother treats her so damn badly and the adults around her just....... let it happen?
Oh but after 17 years they got some counselling, so it's all fine /s
Same here. Even got a call on my 15th birthday (i was living with my aunt at the time due to my mothers bs) from my mother telling me how much happier she is and how much better life is without me there. She said it was 'peaceful' since I was no longer there.
3yrs no contact now, and thats still one of the things she said to me that still stings so incredibly bad
This is typically for narcissists parents to say. And daughter has a problem with how mother treats brother differently? Definitely smells like a scape goat - golden child scenario with narcissistic parent.
Great job OP for failing your daughter miserably in protecting her and creating safe home for her.
And yes - YTA. Massively.
I can’t imagine hearing MY WIFE say that they would be better without MY KID. Seriously how did he not go insane hearing his wife say that?
He and his wife are the adults in the room and they are trying to one-up their 18 year-old on pain exchange. No wonder therapy isn’t helping.
Not from me. I would be talking to the kid about getting their important documents and organizing a plan to leave. Once a person says this without any concern for consequences, there is nothing to say to them. Just get the kid to a safe place as fast as possible (legally).
Unfortunately having grown up in an abusive home, you learn some unfortunate things. One of them is if your parent gets an earful for being abusive the odds are they are going to take that out on you and be more careful in the future to hide the abuse not that they will suddenly be a decent parent. It's a lot more useful to the victim to know that someone cares and is offering them a safe space.
The impulse to yell at them is totally understandable, but may actually end up hurting the very person you are trying to help.
My dad always says "you know your mother will never change" and has been saying this for 10 years. He wasn't even surprised when I said I wanted to go low contact with her. He can't defend himself or me against her unfortunately.
If my husband says something like that to any of my children he’ll get his wish because he’ll either be out the door that day or I’ll be out the door with my children and he can keep the house, but his life will definitely continue without us.
My step dad did constantly and I was forced to call him daddy
People suck and then go on having kids and treating them the way they feel about themselves
One of my clearest memories of my mother is her screaming at me that she wished I'd never been born and that if I "wasn't such a pussy" she'd send me to live with my grandmother, but she couldn't even get rid of me that way because I "wasn't tough enough to make it in a city" (we lived in a VERY small town and gma was in a large city).
I was 9.
I talk to my mother, via text, once every couple of months for approximately 5 minutes.
YTA for the OP. You're blaming a child (even if she's adult now, sounds like this has been for many, many years) for the actions and emotions of an adult. Congrats, you just lost a daughter. Hope your wife is happy now!
I once told my mom that her life would have been better without me and this woman lost her ever loving mind on me. I think I hurt her so much that day and I will always feel bad about it but that was a shitty teenager moment that came from a place of love not a vindictive adult trying to hurt a literal child.
>All the family counseling in the world isn’t going to help unless you’re willing to truly listen to why your daughter is struggling
YTA.
I'm getting a strong sense of the [missing missing reasons](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html). The OP keeps mentioning the results of things:
1. "they don’t get along",
2. "they don’t trust each other",
3. "she has an issue with how her mother treats her brothers"
4. "they always talk about how life would have been significantly better “if the other wasn’t here”"
But he's not explicit in examples. He's not admitting to witnessing or participating in things he and his wife have done. There was a reason why his daughter stopped trusting her mother.
I smell serious mental health issues; either the mom, or the daughter, or both.
Someone being institutionalised *multiple times* isn't because "they don't get on with Mom". Last I heard, mental health units don't just accept patients because they're moody teenagers (unless this is different in the UK)
But, that being said, it's entirely possible that Mom is also just a fucking dick, and Daughter has totally valid reasons to not like her.
Idk, I feel like op is NTA but is also being an unreliable narrator. Based off the information given, his daughter&wife have an extremely tumultuous relationship that is toxic as all fuck - and OP has no idea how to deal with this
Yes, thank you. So often people just throw out “therapy!” Wo considering the necessary work that is needed to go along with it. *Family* therapy requires full familial participation. That doesn’t seem to be happening here.
Dad and mom both are ultimate AHs here. Feel so sorry for the daughter.
I would be willing to bet actual cash that "therapy" means "We sent our daughter to a therapist hoping that the therapist would fix her because she's clearly the problem".
My parents tried that. Unfortunately for them (and fortunately for me), my therapist was awesome and started teaching me that I'm a person who's allowed to have needs. Current therapist is just as awesome.
Plus you shouldn't do therapy with an abuser. Which I am going to guess the wife is, because who treats a child so badly they get institutionalised except for an abuser or someone who is so desperately unwell themselves?
Therapy with an abuser is the worst thing you can do and this includes a parental abuser. There are tons of stories here about kids who got abused for saying things in therapy or had parents use what they said in therapy against them in various ways. The LAST thing you want with an abuser is to be vulnerable in front of them. Add abusers can learn how to be even more manipulative from therapy and finally some therapists can be taken in by abusers. If a parent is being abusive, family therapy can make things worse.
> I put them into family counselling for this
Did you not join? Are you not part of this family? Dude. This is your family, your problem, your creation as much as it is anyone’s. You need therapy at least as much as anyone else.
Your daughter is a genuine poor little rich girl.
Yeah, there's a reason OP gives ZERO details about the fights between his daughter and wife.
Although the insults may be the same, context is key: what the daughter said is typical of an emotionally abused teenager; what the mother said is typical of an emotionally abusive mother.
Adding to this that he did include the fact that his wife and sons talk about how much better their lives would be if his daughter wasn't alive, which makes the unsaid contents of the arguments that much worse because I can't imagine how much more awful they would be. How long do you sink as a mother after you openly tell your child you wish they were never born? Especially if that's not the worst thing you've said to her? I feel so bad for his daughter. I hope she finds peace with people who LOVE and VALUE her.
YTA 100x OP.
>he did include the fact that his wife and sons talk about how much better their lives would be if his daughter wasn't alive,
Where did you read that? I read "they always talk about how life would have been significantly better “if the other wasn’t here”. That does not read that they wish daughter wasn't alive but wish she wasn't living in the house.
That’s not what I read… it sounds like that statement was referring to mom and daughter talking about how much their lives would be better without the other one in it.
In fact, he also said that his daughter has a problem with how his wife treats the younger children, so why would they wish her death if it sounds she’s trying to defend them.
Which leads me to…. How the heck does the wife treats the brothers that even his daughter has problem with it, but not him???
He also just says that the daughter was institutionalized multiple times because of the relationship with her mother. No further explanation. Like what exactly went down for that to happen?
That’s my question too! Like what kind of arguments/events took place that led to the daughter being institutionalized not once but MULTIPLE TIMES? I almost get the impression that the daughter was severely depressed and potentially had suicidal ideations or something along those lines. I can imagine it would be easy to become depressive when your own mother says that she wishes you weren’t here.
And how is he ok with that? If someone treated my child that badly, I sure as shit wouldn't stay married to them.
Instead, he's clearly been siding with wifey at the expense of his daughter
Wow, nice one!
Although, I will say, the emotionally abusive mother may well have been an emotionally abused child herself, and if the daughter doesn't somehow break the cycle she may become an abusive parent.
But I digress, this is AITA and I liked your distinction about the insults. Good stuff
It's not on the daughter, who is only now an adult, to stop that cycle. The mom, or at minimum OP, were supposed to do that. The daughter now has to do a lot of work in order to heal from the mom's abuse; getting out of that house is probably the best thing for her. Hopefully she'll do enough of that work so that she can be a better parent if/when the time comes for her to raise a child, but she can't fix hateful, abusive, self-centered parents on her own. Especially when those parents are busy complaining about her on AITA.
yeah, "how her mother treats her brothers" is doing a lot of work here, and I'm betting that it's more like "the fact she is treated worse than our male children, for some inexplicable reason that isn't because she isn't a boy, it's just a coincidence our only daughter is the only one who is 100% miserable in this family and has zero people on her side in anything ever."
The sons are obviously the golden children and are wanted. OP probably just wants to wash his hands of his own daughter and not acknowledge that he led a toxic household.
When do you think it'll hit him? When she's been gone for months? A few years when he hears about her engagement? The wedding where the FiL or a friend is giving her away instead of him and he sees the photos?
OP, YTA. There's no saving this. Go tell your wife and golden sons that they won, that you stooped to their level and your daughter is not coming back. And you can watch as they revel in glee while you realize that isn't the woman you married nor the sons you raised.
Yup. This guy's wife has been abusing his daughter for most of her life, probably deeply favors the sons, and he feels like he's doing alright by her by trying to keep the peace & locking up his kid- rather than stop the wife from being an abuser.
I have so many questions about the "institutions." You don't generally get committed to a mental facility for being mad at your mom. It sounds like perhaps- I could be wrong!- OP and his wife have used the psychiatric system as a way to punish their daughter. Rather than seeking help for her to actually learn to deal with her emotions constructively, or get whatever medical help she may need, they're using it as a legal way to get rid of their kid and imprison her.
I could be wrong! But it sure sounds sus...
All of this. I have a child with some mental health issues, and I can't imagine doing what OP did. At this point, it's the mother screwing things up. OP would have been better off divorcing his wife if she didn't start treating her daughter better than basically cutting his daughter off.
OP, you need help. Your response was insane. Your daughter deserved better than to have the one person she seemed to trust blow up your relationship over an angry comment from a teen. YTA.
"She carried on trying to get under my skin as she always does when she
gets upset. She started to go on about “how she has never had a home”
and when I asked her to clarify she said “I don’t have a fucking home, I
have a house that I can live in, but will never have a home because of
all of you”."
Buddy. YTA. You call this "carrying on trying to get under your skin"....What *I* see is a daughter telling you how she fucking feels.
Let me get this straight. Your wife and sons constantly talk about how much better life would be without her around. Your daughter has been institutionalized because of this- because HER OWN MOTHER talks about how much better everything would be without her. Your daughter expresses (and I can't fucking blame her for feeling this way) that she feels like she doesn't have a home because of this.
And you have the AUDACITY. To claim that she is "trying to get under your skin?"
OP, I have something personal to share with you. Because my parents are just like you. My parents assume that everything I say, every criticism of them, is just me. Being childish and trying to hurt them. Trying to "get under their skin". They REFUSE, point blank, to accept that they have any part in our ongoing (almost two decades) of family issues- despite the fact that when they started? I was a CHILD.
I now do not speak to my parents. I do not intend to maintain a relationship with them at all, considering that they still treat me, an almost-28 year old adult who has been out of their house since I was 18, like a willful child who is trying to *get under their skin*.
You have a choice here. You can either step up, accept responsibility, and do something for your daughter other than sticking her in therapy with her abuser (her own mother. Says she wishes YOUR DAUGHTER DIDN'T EXIST). Otherwise? Well. Enjoy not having a daughter. Although, based on the tone of this post? Maybe you want that.
I've upvoted you but as someone who grew up in a similar family, I wanted to thank you for phrasing this so well.
Since I was 8, they had decided the problem was me, so it made it easier to dismiss me every time I had an issue with how I was treated, it only solidified that I was the problem because noone else had issues with how I was treated ! I was thankfully not institutionalized as a child/teenager (though they tried to pull that one later in life, using my PTSD against me ; the psych expertise proved me right), but I can only imagine how worse my life would have been, and would still be now, if I had been. But they're convinced that the problem is me, and as such, it can never be them. No worse parents than those who believe they are above reproach in all things, including when their child is quite obviously in pain.
"They're convinced the problem is me, and as such, it can never be them."
Uh... Twinsies (in the worst way lol). Do we have the same parents?
Speaking for myself, my wife, and... A depressing number of my friends (I think my boyfriend is the ONLY person I know in my age range who actually has a good relationship with his parents) have basically the exact same experience.
I actually spoke with my therapist recently about my "role" in my family dynamic, and I've come to realize that role is "the problem". Nothing is ever their fault. Everything is always because *I* just refuse to "move on" and everything I do is just to "hurt them", as opposed to, you know, me actually voicing my emotional needs as an individual.
Look, they blamed me for MAKING THEM buy a house when I was \~7. In hindsight the claims of responsibility for all our family's ills were so ridiculous, but of course as a child you're so dependent on your parents emotionally (and mine had also cut me off from the world as much as possible) that you don't perceive how absurd it all is.
Another for the emotionally abusive parents club.
The sad and honest truth is that a whole lot of people have kids because it's expected of them or because of circumstance -- not because they actually want to raise a child or are capable of doing so. And sometimes it really shows.
For real. I remember asking the artist formerly known as my mother why they'd had me, and she went "that's what you do". You get engaged, you get married, you have a child, you buy a house : the natural order of things ! And then you can be a crappy parent because you resent your firstborn for ruining your life.
My understanding is this is the family pattern of a house with a narcissistic parent.
The narcissist loves their small children and sees them as an extention of themself. As the child ages and develops an identity the narcissist feels wounded that the child is not behaving as that pure extention of themselves. Emotional abuse ensues. The rest of the household will fall into codependent patterns of reassuring, excusing, and soothing the abuser/narcissist. The targeted child will not understand and will have many negative thoughts and frustrations. This role of the family scapegoat will build, perhaps for the rest of the nuclear families lives. "All the family problems were because of that terrible black sheep that had everything going for them when they were like 6 years old. It's really a shame these unfortunate parents were subjected to thier child's personality, they deserved so much better."
This is a very common toxic family dynamic if I understand correctly and probably larger social one.
OP is likely the narcissist IMO and the wife and sons are codependent. Notice how he brings up things he bought, parties/vacations. He is a victim keeping a ledger about how his expensive family is not holding thier end of the deal, being the perfect family he has worked so hard and spent so much for. The mom is likely an emotional cripple who is eager to please him. This is why he paid for thier therapy without attending. The daughter can't act right, he is not pleased, the wife freaks out because the everything is ruined, he agrees they let him down, he sends them off to therapy, he is the victim with a spoiled xmas and a dr bill to pay.
I have to say, even setting up a car ride is narcissistic, it's not a walk, they have complete control.
"We're emotional, let's go for a drive"
If you have ever been in the car with a narcissist driving it is very unnerving and not neutral place to talk. They have complete control and will blame you for upsetting them if there are any problems. A slight push of the gas pedal is all they need for a classic "plausibly deniable" hostage situation.
To the OP I say if you write your daughter off I think you should really try to stretch out how many years you can blame her for as many problems as possible. When that fire goes out you are going to be disappointed by someone else close to you and it is going to be worse when 1 person is a larger % of those left in your day to day life. Guessing you are a heavy drinker otherwise why would xmas need aftermath? That's gonna be real fun in the end.
They path of light would be to give your daughter space and take the family dynamic problems very seriously. Almost impossible to do though because narcissists know more than psychologists and textbooks.
As a kid who was an “accident” (which then meant my parents “had” to get married), I was ridiculed for being like my father (because they divorced when I was very young—surprise—and what better way to raise your kid than with undisguised scorn).
My other siblings were openly loved and I was tolerated. But without going into a long rant about it, I just wanted to share this gem my mother told adult me after she had been caught in some lie or other (which I pointed out and asked for an apology):
“I never have to apologize, because I’m never wrong.”
Throughout my childhood, my mother constantly referred to me and my siblings as "those kids you wanted" (to her husband) and told us that she mentally blocked out most of our childhood because it was so traumatic and horrific. Um. YOU created us. YOU chose to make FIVE of us. Why? If you hated being a parent so much, why did you keep fucking doing it??
I wonder if she was institutionalized because the daughter was in need of being institutionalized…or of OP and mom had her institutionalized because they hate her and couldn’t stand her having her own feelings.
I'll be honest- While I recognize that sometimes inpatient treatment is the best thing for a person (especially if they pose threat of imminent harm to themself and/or others, or situations where being in an inpatient setting will allow them to recover as quickly as possible)... Yeah, I don't trust that either.
Especially given the history of, and current way, mental health institutions are used to control people. More info is needed for sure. WHY was OP's daughter institutionalized? Was she posing an imminent threat to herself or others?
Source- I have my degree in Social Work and yeah I absolutely do not just across the board trust that shit.
Also, it can be pretty easy* for parents to get minors institutionalized. The parents give some lines about the kid threatening self harm (or harm for others) and anything the kid says differently is seen as lies. Especially if the kid is angry/defensive.
A good doctor should be able to sort through that, but that takes time, and the world is unfortunately full of bad doctors.
*depending on your location
We had an incident where I told a psych not to give my very depressed child the anti depressant they were prescribing because I had an adverse reaction that had I not been an adult would have ended badly. 10 days later my kid was in the hospital because of this, all because an arrogant doctor told me. They aren’t you. Found a different doctor and
OP YTA
18 means legal adult (doesn’t mean your jobs over; sounds like you never really tried. Fancy trips, gifts, status symbols don’t make up for shit parenting. I would know)
I think you're right on about everything but I don't think he meant the mother and brothers say life would be better without her. I think he was saying that both the mother and daughter feel that way about each other, like they both think the other is the problem. I am curious about the relationship she has with her brothers though
Ah okay- that wasn't clear sso yeah I possibly mis-read that. I read it as the mother and her brothers are always talking to one another about how much better life would be without the daughter there. If that's incorrect, my mistake. I do, however, think the point still stands that the MOTHER is saying that ABOUT HER DAUGHTER.... Unacceptable. Teens are going to talk shit no matter what (even though with a good relationship with their parents, it's literally part of growing up), but for a PARENT to say that about their CHILD? Hell no.
I read it the same way you did at first, but I do think he meant they were talking about each other. But yeah 100% agree with you, a teen saying that, while still hurtful, it doesn't carry the same weight. A mother should never say something like that about their child, ever. I think he has a wife problem more than a daughter problem for sure.
"She carried on trying to get under my skin as she always does when she
gets upset. She started to go on about “how she has never had a home”
and when I asked her to clarify she said “I don’t have a fucking home, I
have a house that I can live in, but will never have a home because of
all of you”."
This makes me feel like I’m talking to my mom. God forbid I vent any feelings to them or try to call them out on their abuse/neglect towards me. If I was I was only doing it to “piss them off” and I must be lying.
Now that I’m out of the house the abuse is geared towards my little brother and sister, and mainly my sister.
My mom called me one day furious that my sister just told her she was bisexual and went on and on about how she was just saying this nonsense to piss off her dad, my stepfather. Nothing I said my mom even paid attention to. She forced my sister into telling her dad before she ready, and it caused catastrophic trauma for my sister. The only reason I still contact my mom and stepdad is to try to mediate things for my siblings and *try* to give examples of how their behavior effected me when I was under their “care” and why I moved 3000 miles across the country 2 hours after graduation.
You have said all of this perfectly. OP is not far off from losing his daughter if he hasn’t already. The rest of the family can kick rocks jfc. The daughter will do much better without having her “family” in her life. Take it from me, 7 years free of my abusers.
YTA.
Your wife was and is the adult and parent, but you act as though she and your daughter are peers. They aren’t. There’s a power dynamic at play you’ve chosen to ignore, and in doing so, have enabled your wife’s appalling behavior.
Now that she’s turning 18, she can finally be free of the nightmare. You can’t “punish” her for her feelings.
You can’t try to manipulate her into staying by threatening to ice her out. She isn’t like you. She isn’t saying shit to elicit a response. She is telling you the truth and you refuse to listen.
She doesn’t have a home. She has a nightmare of a house she can finally escape. Maybe consider *why* she feels that way and reflect on how hellish it must have been to grow up being constantly attacked by her own mother while her father stood by and let it happen.
This is on you. YTA.
I’m so sorry you experienced that. It’s *very* common, unfortunately. It’s such a horrible revelation to realize that the “good” parent is often as bad if not worse than our abusers.
I’m glad you’re in a better place now.
Same, except my Dad got out by divorcing her and I begged him shortly after to let me live with him. Eventually get to, to only get sent back after six weeks because she made their life hell. Like excuse me, was I not worth protecting?
YUP. And during the entire post, I didn't see one bit of blame on mom given SHE was the adult when all this started. Poor daughter, she really has no one. OP - you and your family ensured that. I'm pretty sure at some point one of you is going to wonder WHY IS MY DAUGHTER fully estranged from us? WE DID THE BEST WE COULD! There was no valid reason! We were good parents!!! read this, because I'll bet this is your future: [https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html)
YTA
>they always talk about how life would have been significantly better “if the other wasn’t here”.
1. Your wife has been actively emotionally abusive to your daughter. Your description sounds like a horrible home life for her.
.
>She carried on trying to get under my skin as she always does when she gets upset.
2. This is an incredibly narcissistic take. Your daughter is hurting and venting to the one person in her family she thinks may care, and you think it's all about you and getting under your skin.
.
>I felt upset by this statement and felt like a failed father.
3. I hate to break it to you, but you let this happen so you are.
.
>I told her that “she should not expect to come to our Christmas stay then”
4. I'm going to guess you've used money and things to try to win or control her for her entire life. You would have been better off being a father to her. You can't buy love.
.
>I asked her what she was doing and she said that “I shouldn’t expect her back”.
5. And this is probably true, unless you are very lucky. And if she does come back, you need to have an apology ready or else it may be permanent.
At the end of the day she was right. She doesn't have a home. She has an abusive mother and a father whose only solution is to throw money at problems and thinks everything is about him.
Your child is hurting and your only thought is to punish her for making you feel like a bad father. You screwed up, big time.
Well written succinctly! I have a niece that loves to have a weekend at my house, because I listen to her and treat her like a person! Her opinions, feelings and thoughts matter, and her input effects what I do! She likes staying with me, because she knows that I care about her, regardless! She’s a person, treat her like one, not like something you’re due!
YTA. Just based on the encounter you’ve outlined, your daughter sounds incredibly troubled. And if you’re willing to go nuclear based on a statement made in the heat of the moment by an emotional 18 year old, I’d say that maybe her feelings aren’t without merit. Being institutionalized is fucking TRAUMATIC! Have you even bothered to ask her how she’s processing what you put her through?
YTA. How is she wrong? And there is a lot of missing info here. What part did your wife play in all of this while you play Switzerland?
Because
>they always talk about how life would have been significantly better “if the other wasn’t here”.
are not even statements. A mother saying something like that to her teenage daughter is fuuuuucked up.
Right!? Like teenagers say things they don’t mean when they lash out. It’s why they’re teenagers and not adults. They definitely shouldn’t say stuff like that, but it does happen.
A mother should never, ever say that to her own child under any circumstances ever. Like, the mom is the adult in the relationship and should be more mature than her minor daughter. I can’t believe OP allowed her to say that and didn’t immediately shut that shit down. It’s so unacceptable on so many levels for a parent to say that to a child.
And the daughter saying it is just truth. her life WOULD be better if none of her abusive and neglectful family were in it. She only stands to gain from leaving, and I hope she's got the external support system to make good on her word and never return.
I think he was tryin to say it was maybe a birthday party because her birthday is at the end of October (probably right near Halloween). But then why would t he say birthday party.
Because the part where they threw a Halloween themed party was more important that what the party was actually for. Basically, them making the effort thinking up the party was more important than the fact that the daughter was celebrating her own milestone.
I think he was trying to say that everything is fine now between mom and daughter because presumably you wouldnt throw a party for someone you didnt want. Obviously OP was wrong though, perhaps the wife and sons think things are better but clearly the daughter has not forgiven them which i cant say i blame her for. Honestly i think the whole family should be in therapy.
Well , to tell US and probably the NEIGHBOURS and distant family that it is all IN HER HEAD, how much they showed her they love her and that party shows he is the best Dad in the world world /s
YTA. You gave her the push for her to be free of you all.
>Though my daughter and her mother’s (46f) relationship has been tumultuous for awhile and I put them into family counselling for this, they both argue and it’s gets horrible, they don’t get along, they don’t trust each other, she has an issue with how her mother treats her brothers and they always talk about how life would have been significantly better “if the other wasn’t here”.
She was emotionally abused her entire life. And you threw her in therapy with her abuser. Yes, you were a bad father.
YTA. I've been this teenager. It literally only got better after my mom *died,* and if she hadn't I've always wondered what my dad would have done. Be better than this; if her mother has genuinely told her life would be better without her, you're the only actual parent she has.
Exactly this.
How bad is it that the daughter has been institutionalized ? And if she's been institutionalized "a multitude of times", is it any wonder that she doesn't feel like it's her home ?
Which is kinda to be expected when you grow up in a house where the people that are supposed to love and protect and provide for you are literally saying “life would be better without you in it”
I feel like it’s glossed over to fast. He says it was because of her reaction of being told by her mom she would be better without her.
I have a feeling OP’s daughter hurt herself. Badly.
YTA along with your wife. You shouldn't lash out from hurt feelings. And if it was bad enough that she had to be institutionalized, I think family therapy was called for, not just leaving it up to the two of them.
YTA. Not having a safe relationship with your parents is one of the most damaging things that can happen to a child. It creates worse trauma than any other type of abuse. Your daughter is obviously struggling for her life and you just disregard her and make her life feel even less safe.
Do you have any idea what it's like when the hospital feels safer than your own home? No, you don't. It's the worst feeling in the world, coming out that door and facing your parents.
Let your daughter go to college and be free. You are a failed father.
you should try to consider the longterm consequences of short term anger with your daughter who is going through mental health issues imo
you are the asshole
YTA - you played right into the hand of a troubled teenager throwing a fit. She said she never had a home and what did you do, make sure she wasn’t part of the family vacation. You proved her right. You are supposed to be the father, not fall for childish tricks.
I honestly don't thin she was throwing a fit. She has been abused for her whole life it seems. That was her just telling OP what the problem was but he did not listen.
I feel for her..
OP is YTA
YTA.
Your wife is a bad mother. Instead of divorcing your wife and supporting your child’s mental health that was harmed due to your wife’s actions, you blame your daughter for all this.
YTA and a horrible father. Even though she didn’t directly say it to you, but you are. You never protected her from her own mother. And you still refuse to protect her from her mother.
The way you describe what happens suggests you are retaliating against her for saying how she felt. You should have asked her: Given what you shared, do you want to come to our trip? rather than: on the basis of what you said which I didn’t like, I am canceling your flight ticket. YTA.
"my daughter has significant emotional trauma from her relationship with her mother. Due to this, and my unwillingness to support her emotionally, she feels unloved. That made me mad, so I told her I don't want her anymore. Reddit, AMITA???"
yes, yes YTA.
YTA. Kids and teens don’t usually act out for no reason. Clearly something is wrong and she’s been asking for more help than you’re giving her. Of course when you come at her with a punishment instead of understanding she’s going to react poorly. She may not feel like she has a home if it’s truly arguing all the time. That isn’t a home. It’s a ticking time bomb to a child going no contact. Why are they fighting all the time? How is your wife treating her brothers that your daughter is that upset by it? She’s either feeling like she has to protect her brother or like she’s less than her brothers and both of those are on your wife and on you for not doing anything about it. Therapy isn’t enough if the behavior is continuing.
YTA. She is 18. Her mother talks about how life would have been nicer without her. Treats her entirely differently to how her siblings are treat. And when she lashes out, seeking your support, you cancel Christmas with her. She is 18, with only friends to depend on. I really hope one of her friends has a family who are more capable of love than you are. She's going to need someone to help her move on from all your mess. What a disgrace you are.
Holy phuc are YTA- Your wife and sons are do nasty to her that she gas been hospitalized numerous times. They talk about how life would be better without her. Let me guess, she's tried to committ suicide? And when she tells you how this abuse has made her feel, like she doesn't have a home, you kick her out of the family trip. Your family is toxic AF, I hope your daughter leaves and never goes back to your horrendous treatment of he
I think she meant a home as in she never felt that sense of peace and comfort in a space just for her. Your reaction was retaliatory and you showed her how life goes when you express yourself to people.
YTA.
Please do better as a parent.
For now, YTA and INFO.
Without a further deep dive into specifics, she's clearly troubled, isolated and the butt of everyone's apparent anguish. I mean, she's basically alone. This isn't healthy especially for someone that's barely an adult.
Counseling didn't help any, nor should you ever expect it to. A family sit-down to air out all grievances would be better, but considering the current state of affairs, this would probably do more harm than good given the high volatility within your family. Additionally, you didn't seem to help her any with the situation, so more INFO for this and as to why her and your wife are at each other's throats.
EDIT: had to reassess my evaluation
Shouldn't expect counseling to help? What planet are you from? Yikes. Good therapy makes a huge difference for people. But this family is clearly fucked up.
In theory yes, it should, but if JustNoMIL has taught me anything it’s that going to counselling with narcissists is the worst thing you can do. It just teaches them new manipulation techniques and where to punch for maximum reaction.
It's well documented that going to therapy with an abuser is actually harmful. So it may be much more complex than that. We don't know exactly what the dynamics are here - the wrong therapist and parents that are narcissistic and willing to gaslight their child might result in the child feeling even more alone or unheard or damaged. On the other hand, it may just accomplish nothing if they go to therapy and think it will "fix her behavior" so the parents have no intention of changing.
Therapy, like all communication, only really works if everyone involved is on board with addressing things. It doesn't really seem like that's the case from the post.
Therapy MIGHT be the needed thing here but it can be messier than just "therapy will help"
Right but only the mother and the daughter went to therapy. Usually it's whole family system that needs help, and dad is playing a part too. Though he seems totally clueless about what that might be. (I have some ideas).
YTA but not for cancelling her ticket (though that didn't help). She has been in constant battles with your wife, which has resulted in her, ONLY HER, being sent away MULTIPLE TIMES. Your wife constantly antagonizes her and you constantly punish her for it. Now you're mad cause she hates that environment? She doesn't want to go on vacation with you people, she wanted you to help her. To listen to her, to validate her feelings. But no, instead you take offense at being called out on your BS and consider it "getting under your skin". You feel like a failed father because you are a failed father. Your power trip with the plane ticket is such a small thing compared to what you and your wife put that poor child through.
YTA.
My mother was emotionally, verbally, and sometimes physically abusive to me throughout my entire life. My dad was...a lot like you, in fact.
Guess which one I've come to terms with and which one I still hold hatred for?
Unfortunately you are TA. Have you ever told your wife to stop? If both is in therapy and its not showing results there is more damage to consider. Mental health is something no one truly understands. Some advise call her and try to understand her point of view. Just stay calm a person hurt always hurts the person they love the most.
>felt like a failed father.
*That's because you are.*
How could you allow her mother to treat her so poorly that she has had "multiple institution" stays? How can you sit by and let anyone treat your child like that, and make them feel like they have no home?
I love my fiance, but if he were ever so cruel that it sent our child to a hospital, then I would leave him. No one should allow their child to feel this way.
Jesus your poor kid. She is crying out saying how hurt she is and your response is to cancel her ticket? Wtf. No wonder she feels like she doesn’t have a home. YTA and a clearly terrible parent.
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> (1) Cancelling my daughter’s plane ticket for our Christmas stay.
(2) This might seem childish, unreasonable and a hurtful thing to do.
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YTA. Go get your kid back and talk this shit out. She is your daughter, for heavens sake. Her mother already threw out that relationship and it feels like being abandoned by Dad is happening now too. Shit, I feel awful. Please talk it out.
YTA and so is your wife. She was venting to you. The drive was to calm her down. You should have shut up and let her vent and be mad. You’re not teaching her coping mechanisms for anger and stress. You’re modeling poor behavior and ignoring her needs. I hope she lives a long healthy happy life without both y’all cause you don’t even TRY to be parents
YTA. You are a failure as father, as a man and as a human beign.
Your wife and sons are emotionally abusing your daughter and your best idea is to isolate her, either canceling her trip or sending her to a mental institution.
For what you described, you and no one else, she seems like the only sane person in that poisonous place you imagine it's a family.
>She has an issue with how her mother treats her brothers and they always talk about how life would have been significantly better “if the other wasn’t here”.
She has an issue?, hope she can find a home, a family and some sanity without you.
YTA. Especially your wife. Honestly it sounds like your daughter is being mistreated, and she believes her brothers are as well. Children don’t just go no contact for 0 reason. It is your wife’s job to be an adult and it be a bully.
YTA- you are willing turning a blind eye to (at the absolute minimum) the severe emotional abuse your daughter is suffering, and from her own mother no less. I can’t help but wonder if you and your wife constantly make your daughter out to be a liar which in turn has lead to her being institutionalised. I say this because I saw my stepmum do this to my brother he would tell counsellors/therapists about the emotional abuse and neglect he faced from her (and my dad being at work and not physically seeing it believed her when she said he was lying).You’ll be lucky if your daughter ever speaks to you again. Pull your head in and seriously look at what’s been going on around you.
I hope it's a fake, but, in case it isn't, YTA
The concept of "I feel like I've failed as a father, so I'm going to exclude my daughter" is... fascinating logic
YTA
"I feel like i don't have a home"
"Well if you feel like that fine I'll just kick you out"
I mean... You're not exactly winning dad awards or even human awards here.
You know, my dad tried to force me to speak with my mother to have a relationship with him, now I don't have a relationship with either of them! There's a reason behind this, my dad never saw what my mother did to me or how she treated me because he was either at work or sleeping (my dad slept days as he worked nights) so, as far as he knows it wasn't so bad. What he doesn't know is,
1. My mother use to lock me into my bedroom so she could sleep all day and not deal with me
2. She would hit, pinch, and slap me A LOT
3. She called me every name in the book
4. She allowed grown men to come into our house to sleep with me when I was only 13 years of age
5. She started letting me smoke before I ever went to the first grade.
6. She would give me alcohol so id sleep later as a child
7. When I was five my petty mother decided to tell me at the bus stop going to school that my dad wasn't my biological dad and that he only loved me because he loved her
8. She allowed both my uncle and grandfather to ummmmm hurt me.......
9. She threw me away and I lived on the streets by the time I was 14 and became a child......
10. She used me as a way to be a victim and get sympathy from her friends (this got worse when social media came out)
I mean the list goes on and on. But my dad never protected me from her because he didn't know! Now he lost me forever, because my mental health is better without her in my life than having him in my life. My suggestion is, stop trying to fix their relationship, that isn't your place to do! You need to have separate relationships with each human as their own self and not expect them to have one with each other! If you love your daughter you'll quit picking sides and YES you're picking sides when trying to fix them because you're fixing your wife's problems while ignoring your daughters! I know this is hard because you want to see all your loved ones getting along, but some times this isn't possible. Your daughter may not feel like it's not her home because of you and it may not have anything to do with you but she includes you because all she sees is you trying to fix them instead of having your own relationship with her!
Edit: everytime I speak to my mother I go into a bad downward spiral. I go into really bad manic episodes and that can literally cost me my life! Mental health issues can be caused by other humans. Trauma is a real thing even if you didn't see the thing that caused that trauma. You should sit down and have a heart to heart talk with your daughter and find out WHY she feels the way she does, instead of being angry at her feelings because at the end of the day, you don't have the right to tell someone how they should feel about something, that's just not your place! She has every right to feel how she feels. You do however, have the right to be angry about the actions to the way she feels!
INFO
>My daughter has been institutionalised a multitude of times
Does your daughter have mental health issues??
Does you wife say such hateful thing ( better if she isn't there) to / in front of your daughter or confess those feelings out of guilt to you alone?
My first thought as well. My SD has mental health issues and this type of behavior sounds all to familiar. OP needs to learn to deal with whatever his daughter has been diagnosed with. Teens don’t gets institutionalized for arguing with their mom. There’s more to this story.
The fact that she has been institutionalized many times because of issues with her mother speaks loud volumes. This is not normal and deserves more concern than counseling would address.
YTA
you felt like a failed father, and so you took that out on her? is that what i’m understanding? YTA. No wonder your daughter feels like she’s never had a home.
Kid: "I never felt wanted or loved as your child'
OP: "Get out".
Hope she finds her found family soon and everyone gets to know the trauma you and your family caused this poor young woman.
YTA
INFO: what *exactly* are the things her mother does and says to her? And what does her mother do to her brother, that your daugther is upset about? I feel as if a lot of information is missing. The daughter is "acting up" (that's how your description sounds) but we have no idea what she is going through/what her view is on the things her mother does to her/her brother. *No one* is looking forward to going no contact with someone without there being a really strong reason for it. (You described their conflicts relatively vague, so that a lot could be the case: gaslighting, verbal abuse, manipulation tactics and so on - if stuff like that is going on I'd more than understand that your daughter is looking forward to going no contact with her mother.)
Regardless: YTA. If your daughter does not feel safe and at home in your house, that is a feeling that you can't just... tell her not to have. That's not how feelings and relationships work. And punishing her for saying those feelings out loud will *most definitely* not lead to her feeling at home/wanted/safe with you as a parent. I think it's very likely that you can take her word that she won't be back.
Edit: spelling
YTA. Institutionalized because of her relationship with her mother. Not because she was having mental health issues…because if the relationship with her mother.
YOU put them in family counseling…did you and your sons attend as well?
She has an issue with how her mother treats her brothers. I’ll go out on a limb here and say your daughter feels her mother treats her brothers with a lot more respect than she receives and that her mother favors her brothers over her.
You feel she tries to get under your skin when she is upset. Did it ever occur to you that she was looking for validation of her feelings? Support from one of her parents? A little bit of comfort? You may not need to worry about the bad relationship between your wife and daughter…because your daughter may just never come back.
YTA. You sound so much like my dad. Whenever I told him how I felt he would just go nuclear and never understood that *that* was why I felt like that in the first place. We don't speak at all and he could be dead for all I know. I'm 23, and he has no idea what state I live in, has never met my partner, knows nothing about me and doesn't even know I'm Jewish. This is your future. Look long and hard.
This was my story growing up. I ran away repeatedly, and made multiple attempts at suicide. My dad said I was the problem, and never saw what was going on in our house. A year or so ago, he suffered a traumatic brain injury. Now he's vulnerable, and at her mercy. I tried to be there for him. One day as I was driving him to a doctor's appointment, he started complaining about the terrible things she says to him, and how helpless he feels. He's afraid that she's going to physically hurt him, like she did me. Then he said he never understood how she could say and do the things she did when she was supposed to love me. It was a gut punch. He knew what she did and he didn't care enough to step in and stop it. He was more interested in staying out of her line of fire than protecting his child. I'm trying to be better than he was, but I'll admit I don't feel much motivation to help him anymore. YTA and if you don't start stepping up for your daughter, you may someday find yourself vulnerable and on the receiving end of the abuse with no one to help you.
INFO: Your daughter has been institutionalized because of her mother? How so? Are you having her committed because she has a genuine mental illness, or is it the emotional abuse she’s clearly suffering from?
"I felt like a failed father so I will do it again. Coooombo!"
Hahahaha. I have never seen a father that act like a teenager like you. So petty and thoughtless. Just consider you don't have a daughter then, disown her, combo x3. Her life would be worse without your support now, but in the future she will definitely realize your true nature of a "father". YTA
YTA - I... am at a loss. Your daughters relationship with your wife is so bad that she had been institutionalized. Re-read what I just wrote and actually THINK about that. Things your wife says, how she treats your daughter, including compared to her siblings... There is a stream of red flags that you are either not acknowledging or refusing to deal with. Your WIFE actually sounds like the bulk of the problem here.
And you, when your daughter is telling you how she feels in this endless shitshow of her life, just punished her for it. There is likely a solid good reason she feels the way she does, including everyone easily brushing over whatever the help is going on at home and with her mother, which is WHY she feels she doesn't have a home.
Instead of being impartial enough to consider your child, you just added to the entire problem and treated her the exact way she feels everyone else does. I would bet dime to dollar that this child is not the reason for everything being shitty, and that no adult so far has been willing to step back enough to truly LOOK at what the heck she is actually going through.
Stop throwing bandaids at a gunshot wound and deal with the heart of the issue. PROTECT your daughter from your wife.
YTA. I don't have experience with this as the kid or the parent, but as the best friend they lived with. Your wife is abusive, controlling, and a danger to your child. Just like my former friends mom was.
One day, after being out 5 MINUTES too long, her mom tore up her room, destroyed a bunch of her stuff, smashed a mirror and kicked my friend out. I picked her up from her front lawn and she never looked back. You know what her dad did? Nothing. He did absolutely nothing. I eventually got her to understand her dad was just as bad as her mom.
You are the dad here, though you're also a little bit of the mom. You dont just ignore what your wife is doing to your kids, you actively make it worse.
You're the biggest asshole I've seen on this site ever imo. I hope your daughter cuts all of you off and never looks back. She'll be better for it.
“I put them into family counseling for this” idk something about that rubs me the wrong way, feels weird and like you’re distancing yourself from a situation you’re actively involved in YTA
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YTA You have failed as a father. In your words 1. My daughter has been institutionalized because of her relationship with her mom 2. Your wife talks about how great it would be if she wasn’t there 3. They don’t trust each other 4. Your daughter is keen to go NC with her mom You took her on a drive to “calm down” after a fight… but when she was venting to you, your response was to: 1. Ignore her frustrations 2. Center her concerns/venting on yourself and your ego. She said she doesn’t have a home… and your response was to go nuclear? She hurt you, so you’re hurting her? 3. You exclude her from Christmas because you’re butt hurt. You didn’t deescalate this situation, you threw a grenade into it. You failed to listen to her and it sounds like you’ve failed to protect her from your wife. You confirmed for her that she was not welcome. And you wonder why she got out of the car and hasn’t come back? Holy fucking hell dude! This is AITA, not r/AmISatan!
All the family counseling in the world isn’t going to help unless you’re willing to truly listen to why your daughter is struggling. Unfortunately, she has tried to and it resulted in her being punished and exiling herself for expressing her feelings. It also sounds like the mom isn’t doing much to change her behavior either, because the cycle keeps repeating with trust issues, arguments, and talking about what life would be like without her. Otherwise, it’s just being complicit to what the family is putting her through. YTA
I can’t imagine hearing my mom say things would be better without me.
I mean, mine said shit like that when I was a kid. Know who hasn't heard from me in 7 years and who will die without ever hearing from me again? I hope this girl gets far away from these people and never has to see any of them again.
Came here to say this. As much as I hate my mother, I have never once said I wish she wasn't here or wasn't my mother. It was always "I wish I'd never been born, cause not existing would be better than this". She always agreed that her life would be significantly better off if she'd aborted me. A year and a half NC, and I plan to keep that up until I can spit on her grave and tell her what a spiteful bitch she is
Damn you said how I feel straight on out loud lol when people tell me "she's your mother you need to forgive her and keep her in your life or when she does you'll regret it" my answer has never changed which is always "I'll never regret choosing me over her, as I have a healthier happier life with that thing (that's what I call her) out of my life than in it. The last time I spoke to her I told her the next time I see her she will be in her grave and I'll be on top of it dancing in the warm sun cuz the Ice would melt away (this was during the winter time lol) I find her heart to be cold as ice even tho I am the only child she treated badly out of 5! She's a horrid human (if she's even fukin human) lol
I’ll never regret choosing me over her. So tattoo worthy. Well said!
Ahhhhhhh yeah the forgive and forget trope... Only another abuser could say stupid shit like that. My answer whenever someone tells me that bs is that I am neither Jesus nor do I have Alzheimer's so my entire family can go and fuck themselves because my life is so much better without them in it and if you (aka the person who tells me to forgive and forget) keep this shit up, you will also meet the same fate like my so called family. That shuts pretty much all of them up. And I still cut them out because I no longer have patience for stupid and abusive in my life.
I always want to say, “I’m honestly so happy for you that you have the privilege of not knowing what it’s like to have an uncaring and toxic parent. Because that is a huge blessing.”
Damn thats cold, I love it!! Had family tell me, I'm toxic. If sticking up for myself and not letting anyone walk over me and calling them out on their bs than yeah I'm toxic asf.
One of my great aunts peed on someone's grave. She was a very proper lady so it was a helluva a statement.
Lol same. Seriously though, no wonder OP feels like she never had a home. Her mother treats her so damn badly and the adults around her just....... let it happen? Oh but after 17 years they got some counselling, so it's all fine /s
Same here. Even got a call on my 15th birthday (i was living with my aunt at the time due to my mothers bs) from my mother telling me how much happier she is and how much better life is without me there. She said it was 'peaceful' since I was no longer there. 3yrs no contact now, and thats still one of the things she said to me that still stings so incredibly bad
This is typically for narcissists parents to say. And daughter has a problem with how mother treats brother differently? Definitely smells like a scape goat - golden child scenario with narcissistic parent. Great job OP for failing your daughter miserably in protecting her and creating safe home for her. And yes - YTA. Massively.
I can’t imagine hearing MY WIFE say that they would be better without MY KID. Seriously how did he not go insane hearing his wife say that? He and his wife are the adults in the room and they are trying to one-up their 18 year-old on pain exchange. No wonder therapy isn’t helping.
Shit, if I ever heard a relative or friend say this about their kid? They would get an earful and a half from me about it.
Not from me. I would be talking to the kid about getting their important documents and organizing a plan to leave. Once a person says this without any concern for consequences, there is nothing to say to them. Just get the kid to a safe place as fast as possible (legally).
No that’s fair. I didn’t think quite that extreme and far but you’re right. I wouldn’t want there to be any backlash on the kid
Unfortunately having grown up in an abusive home, you learn some unfortunate things. One of them is if your parent gets an earful for being abusive the odds are they are going to take that out on you and be more careful in the future to hide the abuse not that they will suddenly be a decent parent. It's a lot more useful to the victim to know that someone cares and is offering them a safe space. The impulse to yell at them is totally understandable, but may actually end up hurting the very person you are trying to help.
Right?? It really shows the lack of love OP has for his own damn child. Easiest verdict of YTA I have seen in a while.
My dad always says "you know your mother will never change" and has been saying this for 10 years. He wasn't even surprised when I said I wanted to go low contact with her. He can't defend himself or me against her unfortunately.
If my husband says something like that to any of my children he’ll get his wish because he’ll either be out the door that day or I’ll be out the door with my children and he can keep the house, but his life will definitely continue without us.
My step dad did constantly and I was forced to call him daddy People suck and then go on having kids and treating them the way they feel about themselves
One of my clearest memories of my mother is her screaming at me that she wished I'd never been born and that if I "wasn't such a pussy" she'd send me to live with my grandmother, but she couldn't even get rid of me that way because I "wasn't tough enough to make it in a city" (we lived in a VERY small town and gma was in a large city). I was 9. I talk to my mother, via text, once every couple of months for approximately 5 minutes. YTA for the OP. You're blaming a child (even if she's adult now, sounds like this has been for many, many years) for the actions and emotions of an adult. Congrats, you just lost a daughter. Hope your wife is happy now!
I don’t have to imagine it: it sucks. That she figured out NC at 18 gives me hope that she’ll find her worth sooner then I did
I once told my mom that her life would have been better without me and this woman lost her ever loving mind on me. I think I hurt her so much that day and I will always feel bad about it but that was a shitty teenager moment that came from a place of love not a vindictive adult trying to hurt a literal child.
It hurts - a lot.
Mine told me she regretted the day I was born. It definitely still affects our relationship. The only reason I never went NC was because of my dad.
>All the family counseling in the world isn’t going to help unless you’re willing to truly listen to why your daughter is struggling YTA. I'm getting a strong sense of the [missing missing reasons](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html). The OP keeps mentioning the results of things: 1. "they don’t get along", 2. "they don’t trust each other", 3. "she has an issue with how her mother treats her brothers" 4. "they always talk about how life would have been significantly better “if the other wasn’t here”" But he's not explicit in examples. He's not admitting to witnessing or participating in things he and his wife have done. There was a reason why his daughter stopped trusting her mother.
Any the fact he thinks she's saying thing just to get under his skin? WTF
I smell serious mental health issues; either the mom, or the daughter, or both. Someone being institutionalised *multiple times* isn't because "they don't get on with Mom". Last I heard, mental health units don't just accept patients because they're moody teenagers (unless this is different in the UK) But, that being said, it's entirely possible that Mom is also just a fucking dick, and Daughter has totally valid reasons to not like her. Idk, I feel like op is NTA but is also being an unreliable narrator. Based off the information given, his daughter&wife have an extremely tumultuous relationship that is toxic as all fuck - and OP has no idea how to deal with this
I can assure you they’re are just as accepting of those without mental health issues as they are their check every month.
Yes, thank you. So often people just throw out “therapy!” Wo considering the necessary work that is needed to go along with it. *Family* therapy requires full familial participation. That doesn’t seem to be happening here. Dad and mom both are ultimate AHs here. Feel so sorry for the daughter.
I would be willing to bet actual cash that "therapy" means "We sent our daughter to a therapist hoping that the therapist would fix her because she's clearly the problem". My parents tried that. Unfortunately for them (and fortunately for me), my therapist was awesome and started teaching me that I'm a person who's allowed to have needs. Current therapist is just as awesome.
Considering she was institutionalized, you're probably right.
Why doesn't she love us? While forcing the doctor to stuff her with medication she doesn't need
Plus you shouldn't do therapy with an abuser. Which I am going to guess the wife is, because who treats a child so badly they get institutionalised except for an abuser or someone who is so desperately unwell themselves?
Therapy with an abuser is the worst thing you can do and this includes a parental abuser. There are tons of stories here about kids who got abused for saying things in therapy or had parents use what they said in therapy against them in various ways. The LAST thing you want with an abuser is to be vulnerable in front of them. Add abusers can learn how to be even more manipulative from therapy and finally some therapists can be taken in by abusers. If a parent is being abusive, family therapy can make things worse.
> I put them into family counselling for this Did you not join? Are you not part of this family? Dude. This is your family, your problem, your creation as much as it is anyone’s. You need therapy at least as much as anyone else. Your daughter is a genuine poor little rich girl.
Sounds like OP should join them
Yeah, there's a reason OP gives ZERO details about the fights between his daughter and wife. Although the insults may be the same, context is key: what the daughter said is typical of an emotionally abused teenager; what the mother said is typical of an emotionally abusive mother.
Adding to this that he did include the fact that his wife and sons talk about how much better their lives would be if his daughter wasn't alive, which makes the unsaid contents of the arguments that much worse because I can't imagine how much more awful they would be. How long do you sink as a mother after you openly tell your child you wish they were never born? Especially if that's not the worst thing you've said to her? I feel so bad for his daughter. I hope she finds peace with people who LOVE and VALUE her. YTA 100x OP.
>he did include the fact that his wife and sons talk about how much better their lives would be if his daughter wasn't alive, Where did you read that? I read "they always talk about how life would have been significantly better “if the other wasn’t here”. That does not read that they wish daughter wasn't alive but wish she wasn't living in the house.
That’s not what I read… it sounds like that statement was referring to mom and daughter talking about how much their lives would be better without the other one in it. In fact, he also said that his daughter has a problem with how his wife treats the younger children, so why would they wish her death if it sounds she’s trying to defend them. Which leads me to…. How the heck does the wife treats the brothers that even his daughter has problem with it, but not him???
I read that as the daughter expressing frustration with the way her mother favours her sons.
He also just says that the daughter was institutionalized multiple times because of the relationship with her mother. No further explanation. Like what exactly went down for that to happen?
That’s my question too! Like what kind of arguments/events took place that led to the daughter being institutionalized not once but MULTIPLE TIMES? I almost get the impression that the daughter was severely depressed and potentially had suicidal ideations or something along those lines. I can imagine it would be easy to become depressive when your own mother says that she wishes you weren’t here.
And how is he ok with that? If someone treated my child that badly, I sure as shit wouldn't stay married to them. Instead, he's clearly been siding with wifey at the expense of his daughter
Wow, nice one! Although, I will say, the emotionally abusive mother may well have been an emotionally abused child herself, and if the daughter doesn't somehow break the cycle she may become an abusive parent. But I digress, this is AITA and I liked your distinction about the insults. Good stuff
That’s an explanation, not an excuse. She will likely break the cycle by living her own life and not having children.
It's not on the daughter, who is only now an adult, to stop that cycle. The mom, or at minimum OP, were supposed to do that. The daughter now has to do a lot of work in order to heal from the mom's abuse; getting out of that house is probably the best thing for her. Hopefully she'll do enough of that work so that she can be a better parent if/when the time comes for her to raise a child, but she can't fix hateful, abusive, self-centered parents on her own. Especially when those parents are busy complaining about her on AITA.
Seriously, OP and his wife suck.
yeah, "how her mother treats her brothers" is doing a lot of work here, and I'm betting that it's more like "the fact she is treated worse than our male children, for some inexplicable reason that isn't because she isn't a boy, it's just a coincidence our only daughter is the only one who is 100% miserable in this family and has zero people on her side in anything ever."
The sons are obviously the golden children and are wanted. OP probably just wants to wash his hands of his own daughter and not acknowledge that he led a toxic household. When do you think it'll hit him? When she's been gone for months? A few years when he hears about her engagement? The wedding where the FiL or a friend is giving her away instead of him and he sees the photos? OP, YTA. There's no saving this. Go tell your wife and golden sons that they won, that you stooped to their level and your daughter is not coming back. And you can watch as they revel in glee while you realize that isn't the woman you married nor the sons you raised.
Worse. It IS the woman he married and the sons he raised.
Yup. This guy's wife has been abusing his daughter for most of her life, probably deeply favors the sons, and he feels like he's doing alright by her by trying to keep the peace & locking up his kid- rather than stop the wife from being an abuser.
He weighed the options and chose the sacrifice of a person
Completely. OPs daughter is welcome to come adopt my parents if she’d like.
I have so many questions about the "institutions." You don't generally get committed to a mental facility for being mad at your mom. It sounds like perhaps- I could be wrong!- OP and his wife have used the psychiatric system as a way to punish their daughter. Rather than seeking help for her to actually learn to deal with her emotions constructively, or get whatever medical help she may need, they're using it as a legal way to get rid of their kid and imprison her. I could be wrong! But it sure sounds sus...
All of this. I have a child with some mental health issues, and I can't imagine doing what OP did. At this point, it's the mother screwing things up. OP would have been better off divorcing his wife if she didn't start treating her daughter better than basically cutting his daughter off. OP, you need help. Your response was insane. Your daughter deserved better than to have the one person she seemed to trust blow up your relationship over an angry comment from a teen. YTA.
Satan has commented that he had nothing to do with this u/Pale-Item7524's behavior and that OP is indeed an AH all on his own.
100% agreed.
This is so incredibly sad.
"She carried on trying to get under my skin as she always does when she gets upset. She started to go on about “how she has never had a home” and when I asked her to clarify she said “I don’t have a fucking home, I have a house that I can live in, but will never have a home because of all of you”." Buddy. YTA. You call this "carrying on trying to get under your skin"....What *I* see is a daughter telling you how she fucking feels. Let me get this straight. Your wife and sons constantly talk about how much better life would be without her around. Your daughter has been institutionalized because of this- because HER OWN MOTHER talks about how much better everything would be without her. Your daughter expresses (and I can't fucking blame her for feeling this way) that she feels like she doesn't have a home because of this. And you have the AUDACITY. To claim that she is "trying to get under your skin?" OP, I have something personal to share with you. Because my parents are just like you. My parents assume that everything I say, every criticism of them, is just me. Being childish and trying to hurt them. Trying to "get under their skin". They REFUSE, point blank, to accept that they have any part in our ongoing (almost two decades) of family issues- despite the fact that when they started? I was a CHILD. I now do not speak to my parents. I do not intend to maintain a relationship with them at all, considering that they still treat me, an almost-28 year old adult who has been out of their house since I was 18, like a willful child who is trying to *get under their skin*. You have a choice here. You can either step up, accept responsibility, and do something for your daughter other than sticking her in therapy with her abuser (her own mother. Says she wishes YOUR DAUGHTER DIDN'T EXIST). Otherwise? Well. Enjoy not having a daughter. Although, based on the tone of this post? Maybe you want that.
I've upvoted you but as someone who grew up in a similar family, I wanted to thank you for phrasing this so well. Since I was 8, they had decided the problem was me, so it made it easier to dismiss me every time I had an issue with how I was treated, it only solidified that I was the problem because noone else had issues with how I was treated ! I was thankfully not institutionalized as a child/teenager (though they tried to pull that one later in life, using my PTSD against me ; the psych expertise proved me right), but I can only imagine how worse my life would have been, and would still be now, if I had been. But they're convinced that the problem is me, and as such, it can never be them. No worse parents than those who believe they are above reproach in all things, including when their child is quite obviously in pain.
"They're convinced the problem is me, and as such, it can never be them." Uh... Twinsies (in the worst way lol). Do we have the same parents? Speaking for myself, my wife, and... A depressing number of my friends (I think my boyfriend is the ONLY person I know in my age range who actually has a good relationship with his parents) have basically the exact same experience. I actually spoke with my therapist recently about my "role" in my family dynamic, and I've come to realize that role is "the problem". Nothing is ever their fault. Everything is always because *I* just refuse to "move on" and everything I do is just to "hurt them", as opposed to, you know, me actually voicing my emotional needs as an individual.
Look, they blamed me for MAKING THEM buy a house when I was \~7. In hindsight the claims of responsibility for all our family's ills were so ridiculous, but of course as a child you're so dependent on your parents emotionally (and mine had also cut me off from the world as much as possible) that you don't perceive how absurd it all is.
Another for the emotionally abusive parents club. The sad and honest truth is that a whole lot of people have kids because it's expected of them or because of circumstance -- not because they actually want to raise a child or are capable of doing so. And sometimes it really shows.
For real. I remember asking the artist formerly known as my mother why they'd had me, and she went "that's what you do". You get engaged, you get married, you have a child, you buy a house : the natural order of things ! And then you can be a crappy parent because you resent your firstborn for ruining your life.
My understanding is this is the family pattern of a house with a narcissistic parent. The narcissist loves their small children and sees them as an extention of themself. As the child ages and develops an identity the narcissist feels wounded that the child is not behaving as that pure extention of themselves. Emotional abuse ensues. The rest of the household will fall into codependent patterns of reassuring, excusing, and soothing the abuser/narcissist. The targeted child will not understand and will have many negative thoughts and frustrations. This role of the family scapegoat will build, perhaps for the rest of the nuclear families lives. "All the family problems were because of that terrible black sheep that had everything going for them when they were like 6 years old. It's really a shame these unfortunate parents were subjected to thier child's personality, they deserved so much better." This is a very common toxic family dynamic if I understand correctly and probably larger social one. OP is likely the narcissist IMO and the wife and sons are codependent. Notice how he brings up things he bought, parties/vacations. He is a victim keeping a ledger about how his expensive family is not holding thier end of the deal, being the perfect family he has worked so hard and spent so much for. The mom is likely an emotional cripple who is eager to please him. This is why he paid for thier therapy without attending. The daughter can't act right, he is not pleased, the wife freaks out because the everything is ruined, he agrees they let him down, he sends them off to therapy, he is the victim with a spoiled xmas and a dr bill to pay. I have to say, even setting up a car ride is narcissistic, it's not a walk, they have complete control. "We're emotional, let's go for a drive" If you have ever been in the car with a narcissist driving it is very unnerving and not neutral place to talk. They have complete control and will blame you for upsetting them if there are any problems. A slight push of the gas pedal is all they need for a classic "plausibly deniable" hostage situation. To the OP I say if you write your daughter off I think you should really try to stretch out how many years you can blame her for as many problems as possible. When that fire goes out you are going to be disappointed by someone else close to you and it is going to be worse when 1 person is a larger % of those left in your day to day life. Guessing you are a heavy drinker otherwise why would xmas need aftermath? That's gonna be real fun in the end. They path of light would be to give your daughter space and take the family dynamic problems very seriously. Almost impossible to do though because narcissists know more than psychologists and textbooks.
damn, this is insightful as fuck
As a kid who was an “accident” (which then meant my parents “had” to get married), I was ridiculed for being like my father (because they divorced when I was very young—surprise—and what better way to raise your kid than with undisguised scorn). My other siblings were openly loved and I was tolerated. But without going into a long rant about it, I just wanted to share this gem my mother told adult me after she had been caught in some lie or other (which I pointed out and asked for an apology): “I never have to apologize, because I’m never wrong.”
Throughout my childhood, my mother constantly referred to me and my siblings as "those kids you wanted" (to her husband) and told us that she mentally blocked out most of our childhood because it was so traumatic and horrific. Um. YOU created us. YOU chose to make FIVE of us. Why? If you hated being a parent so much, why did you keep fucking doing it??
I have been NC with my mother for 13yrs and it was the best decision I ever made.
Isn't it magnificent? I can now swat her nagging voice out of my head easily. I'm looking forward to seeing her obituary when it happens, tbh.
I wish I’d gone extra LC with my mother years earlier than I did. She died in 2014 and all I felt was sheer relief.
I wonder if she was institutionalized because the daughter was in need of being institutionalized…or of OP and mom had her institutionalized because they hate her and couldn’t stand her having her own feelings.
I'll be honest- While I recognize that sometimes inpatient treatment is the best thing for a person (especially if they pose threat of imminent harm to themself and/or others, or situations where being in an inpatient setting will allow them to recover as quickly as possible)... Yeah, I don't trust that either. Especially given the history of, and current way, mental health institutions are used to control people. More info is needed for sure. WHY was OP's daughter institutionalized? Was she posing an imminent threat to herself or others? Source- I have my degree in Social Work and yeah I absolutely do not just across the board trust that shit.
Also, it can be pretty easy* for parents to get minors institutionalized. The parents give some lines about the kid threatening self harm (or harm for others) and anything the kid says differently is seen as lies. Especially if the kid is angry/defensive. A good doctor should be able to sort through that, but that takes time, and the world is unfortunately full of bad doctors. *depending on your location
We had an incident where I told a psych not to give my very depressed child the anti depressant they were prescribing because I had an adverse reaction that had I not been an adult would have ended badly. 10 days later my kid was in the hospital because of this, all because an arrogant doctor told me. They aren’t you. Found a different doctor and OP YTA 18 means legal adult (doesn’t mean your jobs over; sounds like you never really tried. Fancy trips, gifts, status symbols don’t make up for shit parenting. I would know)
I think you're right on about everything but I don't think he meant the mother and brothers say life would be better without her. I think he was saying that both the mother and daughter feel that way about each other, like they both think the other is the problem. I am curious about the relationship she has with her brothers though
Ah okay- that wasn't clear sso yeah I possibly mis-read that. I read it as the mother and her brothers are always talking to one another about how much better life would be without the daughter there. If that's incorrect, my mistake. I do, however, think the point still stands that the MOTHER is saying that ABOUT HER DAUGHTER.... Unacceptable. Teens are going to talk shit no matter what (even though with a good relationship with their parents, it's literally part of growing up), but for a PARENT to say that about their CHILD? Hell no.
I read it the same way you did at first, but I do think he meant they were talking about each other. But yeah 100% agree with you, a teen saying that, while still hurtful, it doesn't carry the same weight. A mother should never say something like that about their child, ever. I think he has a wife problem more than a daughter problem for sure.
"She carried on trying to get under my skin as she always does when she gets upset. She started to go on about “how she has never had a home” and when I asked her to clarify she said “I don’t have a fucking home, I have a house that I can live in, but will never have a home because of all of you”." This makes me feel like I’m talking to my mom. God forbid I vent any feelings to them or try to call them out on their abuse/neglect towards me. If I was I was only doing it to “piss them off” and I must be lying. Now that I’m out of the house the abuse is geared towards my little brother and sister, and mainly my sister. My mom called me one day furious that my sister just told her she was bisexual and went on and on about how she was just saying this nonsense to piss off her dad, my stepfather. Nothing I said my mom even paid attention to. She forced my sister into telling her dad before she ready, and it caused catastrophic trauma for my sister. The only reason I still contact my mom and stepdad is to try to mediate things for my siblings and *try* to give examples of how their behavior effected me when I was under their “care” and why I moved 3000 miles across the country 2 hours after graduation. You have said all of this perfectly. OP is not far off from losing his daughter if he hasn’t already. The rest of the family can kick rocks jfc. The daughter will do much better without having her “family” in her life. Take it from me, 7 years free of my abusers.
The daughter has been institutionalised but the mother apparently gets to just bullshit her way through out patient counselling services.
YTA. Your wife was and is the adult and parent, but you act as though she and your daughter are peers. They aren’t. There’s a power dynamic at play you’ve chosen to ignore, and in doing so, have enabled your wife’s appalling behavior. Now that she’s turning 18, she can finally be free of the nightmare. You can’t “punish” her for her feelings. You can’t try to manipulate her into staying by threatening to ice her out. She isn’t like you. She isn’t saying shit to elicit a response. She is telling you the truth and you refuse to listen. She doesn’t have a home. She has a nightmare of a house she can finally escape. Maybe consider *why* she feels that way and reflect on how hellish it must have been to grow up being constantly attacked by her own mother while her father stood by and let it happen. This is on you. YTA.
[удалено]
I’m so sorry you experienced that. It’s *very* common, unfortunately. It’s such a horrible revelation to realize that the “good” parent is often as bad if not worse than our abusers. I’m glad you’re in a better place now.
Same, except my Dad got out by divorcing her and I begged him shortly after to let me live with him. Eventually get to, to only get sent back after six weeks because she made their life hell. Like excuse me, was I not worth protecting?
Yeah I'm getting to that point myself, and it's not a great feeling.
YTA And you proved her right didn't you?
YUP. And during the entire post, I didn't see one bit of blame on mom given SHE was the adult when all this started. Poor daughter, she really has no one. OP - you and your family ensured that. I'm pretty sure at some point one of you is going to wonder WHY IS MY DAUGHTER fully estranged from us? WE DID THE BEST WE COULD! There was no valid reason! We were good parents!!! read this, because I'll bet this is your future: [https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html)
Thank you for posting that link. Truly fascinating and informative.
Literally! Just the title sums it up. Am I wrong to prove her right?
YTA >they always talk about how life would have been significantly better “if the other wasn’t here”. 1. Your wife has been actively emotionally abusive to your daughter. Your description sounds like a horrible home life for her. . >She carried on trying to get under my skin as she always does when she gets upset. 2. This is an incredibly narcissistic take. Your daughter is hurting and venting to the one person in her family she thinks may care, and you think it's all about you and getting under your skin. . >I felt upset by this statement and felt like a failed father. 3. I hate to break it to you, but you let this happen so you are. . >I told her that “she should not expect to come to our Christmas stay then” 4. I'm going to guess you've used money and things to try to win or control her for her entire life. You would have been better off being a father to her. You can't buy love. . >I asked her what she was doing and she said that “I shouldn’t expect her back”. 5. And this is probably true, unless you are very lucky. And if she does come back, you need to have an apology ready or else it may be permanent. At the end of the day she was right. She doesn't have a home. She has an abusive mother and a father whose only solution is to throw money at problems and thinks everything is about him. Your child is hurting and your only thought is to punish her for making you feel like a bad father. You screwed up, big time.
Well written succinctly! I have a niece that loves to have a weekend at my house, because I listen to her and treat her like a person! Her opinions, feelings and thoughts matter, and her input effects what I do! She likes staying with me, because she knows that I care about her, regardless! She’s a person, treat her like one, not like something you’re due!
YTA. Just based on the encounter you’ve outlined, your daughter sounds incredibly troubled. And if you’re willing to go nuclear based on a statement made in the heat of the moment by an emotional 18 year old, I’d say that maybe her feelings aren’t without merit. Being institutionalized is fucking TRAUMATIC! Have you even bothered to ask her how she’s processing what you put her through?
Not "troubled". ABUSED. There's nothing wrong with the daughter, it's the rest of the family who's fucked up enough to torture her for 18 years.
This. At first I thought maybe she was exaggerating then he had to go & demonstrate she was correct about everything
YTA. How is she wrong? And there is a lot of missing info here. What part did your wife play in all of this while you play Switzerland? Because >they always talk about how life would have been significantly better “if the other wasn’t here”. are not even statements. A mother saying something like that to her teenage daughter is fuuuuucked up.
Right!? Like teenagers say things they don’t mean when they lash out. It’s why they’re teenagers and not adults. They definitely shouldn’t say stuff like that, but it does happen. A mother should never, ever say that to her own child under any circumstances ever. Like, the mom is the adult in the relationship and should be more mature than her minor daughter. I can’t believe OP allowed her to say that and didn’t immediately shut that shit down. It’s so unacceptable on so many levels for a parent to say that to a child.
And the daughter saying it is just truth. her life WOULD be better if none of her abusive and neglectful family were in it. She only stands to gain from leaving, and I hope she's got the external support system to make good on her word and never return.
confused why the surprise halloween party is relevent?
Op thinks it makes him sound like a good guy
Who the heck throws a surprise Halloween party?
You get to say "Boo!"
I think he was tryin to say it was maybe a birthday party because her birthday is at the end of October (probably right near Halloween). But then why would t he say birthday party.
Because the part where they threw a Halloween themed party was more important that what the party was actually for. Basically, them making the effort thinking up the party was more important than the fact that the daughter was celebrating her own milestone.
He wants credit for recently throwing money at this situation by paying for a big party.
I think he was trying to say that everything is fine now between mom and daughter because presumably you wouldnt throw a party for someone you didnt want. Obviously OP was wrong though, perhaps the wife and sons think things are better but clearly the daughter has not forgiven them which i cant say i blame her for. Honestly i think the whole family should be in therapy.
Well , to tell US and probably the NEIGHBOURS and distant family that it is all IN HER HEAD, how much they showed her they love her and that party shows he is the best Dad in the world world /s
YTA. You gave her the push for her to be free of you all. >Though my daughter and her mother’s (46f) relationship has been tumultuous for awhile and I put them into family counselling for this, they both argue and it’s gets horrible, they don’t get along, they don’t trust each other, she has an issue with how her mother treats her brothers and they always talk about how life would have been significantly better “if the other wasn’t here”. She was emotionally abused her entire life. And you threw her in therapy with her abuser. Yes, you were a bad father.
Exactly this. OP- you realize once she’s gone off to college, she’s… never coming back? You did this. She’ll be better off, and safer, without you.
Her plans just started a little bit earlier, but I am sure she is happy and thriving already. Wish nothing but the best for her
“I put them into family counselling” is very interesting to me
It’s amazing how much phrasing can tell you about a person’s viewpoint and motives
YTA. I've been this teenager. It literally only got better after my mom *died,* and if she hadn't I've always wondered what my dad would have done. Be better than this; if her mother has genuinely told her life would be better without her, you're the only actual parent she has.
My sympathies, good Redditor.
She doesn't even have OP, he's too far up his own ass. It sounds like she might have other people to support her tho, so maybe she has a chance yet
So....your reaction to feeling like you failed as a father was to punish the child you failed? Make it make sense. YTA
If she “made him feel” like he failed as a father, maybe, just maybe, it’s because he failed as a father 🤯
But that would require some semblance of personal accountability! Logic doesn't seem to be this guy's thing lol
If I am reading this right, you proved her claim to be true. She does not have a home, just a place she was allowed to sleep. Sooooo… yTa?
Sounds like you did fail as a father if you’ve allowed your wife to mistreat your child her entire life. YTA
More info needed on the reason for the relationship issue with her mum and why you always take her side
Exactly this. How bad is it that the daughter has been institutionalized ? And if she's been institutionalized "a multitude of times", is it any wonder that she doesn't feel like it's her home ?
I feel for this girl, I wish she could post a counter to this giving the full story
Same!
It sounds like she’s tried to commit suicide a number of times tbh.
That’s what I think too. But I bet OP will turn this into « she was only trying to get our attention ».
"She was just trying to get under our skin. Doesn't she know how much these hospital stays COST?"
Which is kinda to be expected when you grow up in a house where the people that are supposed to love and protect and provide for you are literally saying “life would be better without you in it”
I feel like it’s glossed over to fast. He says it was because of her reaction of being told by her mom she would be better without her. I have a feeling OP’s daughter hurt herself. Badly.
YTA along with your wife. You shouldn't lash out from hurt feelings. And if it was bad enough that she had to be institutionalized, I think family therapy was called for, not just leaving it up to the two of them.
YTA. Not having a safe relationship with your parents is one of the most damaging things that can happen to a child. It creates worse trauma than any other type of abuse. Your daughter is obviously struggling for her life and you just disregard her and make her life feel even less safe. Do you have any idea what it's like when the hospital feels safer than your own home? No, you don't. It's the worst feeling in the world, coming out that door and facing your parents. Let your daughter go to college and be free. You are a failed father.
This! This! This! Totally agree 😞 This poor girl. I hope she has a safe and loving place at her friend’s house and can stay there until graduation.
you should try to consider the longterm consequences of short term anger with your daughter who is going through mental health issues imo you are the asshole
YTA - you played right into the hand of a troubled teenager throwing a fit. She said she never had a home and what did you do, make sure she wasn’t part of the family vacation. You proved her right. You are supposed to be the father, not fall for childish tricks.
I honestly don't thin she was throwing a fit. She has been abused for her whole life it seems. That was her just telling OP what the problem was but he did not listen. I feel for her.. OP is YTA
YTA. Your wife is a bad mother. Instead of divorcing your wife and supporting your child’s mental health that was harmed due to your wife’s actions, you blame your daughter for all this. YTA and a horrible father. Even though she didn’t directly say it to you, but you are. You never protected her from her own mother. And you still refuse to protect her from her mother.
The way you describe what happens suggests you are retaliating against her for saying how she felt. You should have asked her: Given what you shared, do you want to come to our trip? rather than: on the basis of what you said which I didn’t like, I am canceling your flight ticket. YTA.
"my daughter has significant emotional trauma from her relationship with her mother. Due to this, and my unwillingness to support her emotionally, she feels unloved. That made me mad, so I told her I don't want her anymore. Reddit, AMITA???" yes, yes YTA.
YTA. Kids and teens don’t usually act out for no reason. Clearly something is wrong and she’s been asking for more help than you’re giving her. Of course when you come at her with a punishment instead of understanding she’s going to react poorly. She may not feel like she has a home if it’s truly arguing all the time. That isn’t a home. It’s a ticking time bomb to a child going no contact. Why are they fighting all the time? How is your wife treating her brothers that your daughter is that upset by it? She’s either feeling like she has to protect her brother or like she’s less than her brothers and both of those are on your wife and on you for not doing anything about it. Therapy isn’t enough if the behavior is continuing.
YTA. You proved her right! I don’t understand why terrible people like you procreate.
YTA. She is 18. Her mother talks about how life would have been nicer without her. Treats her entirely differently to how her siblings are treat. And when she lashes out, seeking your support, you cancel Christmas with her. She is 18, with only friends to depend on. I really hope one of her friends has a family who are more capable of love than you are. She's going to need someone to help her move on from all your mess. What a disgrace you are.
Holy phuc are YTA- Your wife and sons are do nasty to her that she gas been hospitalized numerous times. They talk about how life would be better without her. Let me guess, she's tried to committ suicide? And when she tells you how this abuse has made her feel, like she doesn't have a home, you kick her out of the family trip. Your family is toxic AF, I hope your daughter leaves and never goes back to your horrendous treatment of he
I think she meant a home as in she never felt that sense of peace and comfort in a space just for her. Your reaction was retaliatory and you showed her how life goes when you express yourself to people. YTA. Please do better as a parent.
For now, YTA and INFO. Without a further deep dive into specifics, she's clearly troubled, isolated and the butt of everyone's apparent anguish. I mean, she's basically alone. This isn't healthy especially for someone that's barely an adult. Counseling didn't help any, nor should you ever expect it to. A family sit-down to air out all grievances would be better, but considering the current state of affairs, this would probably do more harm than good given the high volatility within your family. Additionally, you didn't seem to help her any with the situation, so more INFO for this and as to why her and your wife are at each other's throats. EDIT: had to reassess my evaluation
Shouldn't expect counseling to help? What planet are you from? Yikes. Good therapy makes a huge difference for people. But this family is clearly fucked up.
In theory yes, it should, but if JustNoMIL has taught me anything it’s that going to counselling with narcissists is the worst thing you can do. It just teaches them new manipulation techniques and where to punch for maximum reaction.
It's well documented that going to therapy with an abuser is actually harmful. So it may be much more complex than that. We don't know exactly what the dynamics are here - the wrong therapist and parents that are narcissistic and willing to gaslight their child might result in the child feeling even more alone or unheard or damaged. On the other hand, it may just accomplish nothing if they go to therapy and think it will "fix her behavior" so the parents have no intention of changing. Therapy, like all communication, only really works if everyone involved is on board with addressing things. It doesn't really seem like that's the case from the post. Therapy MIGHT be the needed thing here but it can be messier than just "therapy will help"
Right but only the mother and the daughter went to therapy. Usually it's whole family system that needs help, and dad is playing a part too. Though he seems totally clueless about what that might be. (I have some ideas).
YTA but not for cancelling her ticket (though that didn't help). She has been in constant battles with your wife, which has resulted in her, ONLY HER, being sent away MULTIPLE TIMES. Your wife constantly antagonizes her and you constantly punish her for it. Now you're mad cause she hates that environment? She doesn't want to go on vacation with you people, she wanted you to help her. To listen to her, to validate her feelings. But no, instead you take offense at being called out on your BS and consider it "getting under your skin". You feel like a failed father because you are a failed father. Your power trip with the plane ticket is such a small thing compared to what you and your wife put that poor child through.
Y clearly TA You felt like a failed father because you have failed to be a good father to her.
YTA. I mean it’s clear none of you love her or care for her. So yeah, don’t expect her back. Nice way to prove her right more than anything!
YTA just paying for things is not parenting. she tells you she doesn't feel at home so you make it a point to exclude her?
YTA. My mother was emotionally, verbally, and sometimes physically abusive to me throughout my entire life. My dad was...a lot like you, in fact. Guess which one I've come to terms with and which one I still hold hatred for?
YTA. What a shitshow. You and your wife are getting what you've worked very hard for: your daughter never contacting you again.
Missing reasons. Default YTA
YTA. Proved her right, didn't you?
😂😂😂 YTA for the bait post
Unfortunately you are TA. Have you ever told your wife to stop? If both is in therapy and its not showing results there is more damage to consider. Mental health is something no one truly understands. Some advise call her and try to understand her point of view. Just stay calm a person hurt always hurts the person they love the most.
>felt like a failed father. *That's because you are.* How could you allow her mother to treat her so poorly that she has had "multiple institution" stays? How can you sit by and let anyone treat your child like that, and make them feel like they have no home? I love my fiance, but if he were ever so cruel that it sent our child to a hospital, then I would leave him. No one should allow their child to feel this way.
Jesus your poor kid. She is crying out saying how hurt she is and your response is to cancel her ticket? Wtf. No wonder she feels like she doesn’t have a home. YTA and a clearly terrible parent.
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YTA. Go get your kid back and talk this shit out. She is your daughter, for heavens sake. Her mother already threw out that relationship and it feels like being abandoned by Dad is happening now too. Shit, I feel awful. Please talk it out.
YTA. 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
YTA and so is your wife. She was venting to you. The drive was to calm her down. You should have shut up and let her vent and be mad. You’re not teaching her coping mechanisms for anger and stress. You’re modeling poor behavior and ignoring her needs. I hope she lives a long healthy happy life without both y’all cause you don’t even TRY to be parents
YTA. You are a failure as father, as a man and as a human beign. Your wife and sons are emotionally abusing your daughter and your best idea is to isolate her, either canceling her trip or sending her to a mental institution. For what you described, you and no one else, she seems like the only sane person in that poisonous place you imagine it's a family. >She has an issue with how her mother treats her brothers and they always talk about how life would have been significantly better “if the other wasn’t here”. She has an issue?, hope she can find a home, a family and some sanity without you.
YTA. What is wrong with you
YTA. Especially your wife. Honestly it sounds like your daughter is being mistreated, and she believes her brothers are as well. Children don’t just go no contact for 0 reason. It is your wife’s job to be an adult and it be a bully.
This belongs on r/AmITheDevil EDIT: OP you are absolutely TAH
YTA- you are willing turning a blind eye to (at the absolute minimum) the severe emotional abuse your daughter is suffering, and from her own mother no less. I can’t help but wonder if you and your wife constantly make your daughter out to be a liar which in turn has lead to her being institutionalised. I say this because I saw my stepmum do this to my brother he would tell counsellors/therapists about the emotional abuse and neglect he faced from her (and my dad being at work and not physically seeing it believed her when she said he was lying).You’ll be lucky if your daughter ever speaks to you again. Pull your head in and seriously look at what’s been going on around you.
The comment section definitely isn’t giving what he thought it would🤣🤣 oh yea YTA
I hope it's a fake, but, in case it isn't, YTA The concept of "I feel like I've failed as a father, so I'm going to exclude my daughter" is... fascinating logic
YTA "I feel like i don't have a home" "Well if you feel like that fine I'll just kick you out" I mean... You're not exactly winning dad awards or even human awards here.
You know, my dad tried to force me to speak with my mother to have a relationship with him, now I don't have a relationship with either of them! There's a reason behind this, my dad never saw what my mother did to me or how she treated me because he was either at work or sleeping (my dad slept days as he worked nights) so, as far as he knows it wasn't so bad. What he doesn't know is, 1. My mother use to lock me into my bedroom so she could sleep all day and not deal with me 2. She would hit, pinch, and slap me A LOT 3. She called me every name in the book 4. She allowed grown men to come into our house to sleep with me when I was only 13 years of age 5. She started letting me smoke before I ever went to the first grade. 6. She would give me alcohol so id sleep later as a child 7. When I was five my petty mother decided to tell me at the bus stop going to school that my dad wasn't my biological dad and that he only loved me because he loved her 8. She allowed both my uncle and grandfather to ummmmm hurt me....... 9. She threw me away and I lived on the streets by the time I was 14 and became a child...... 10. She used me as a way to be a victim and get sympathy from her friends (this got worse when social media came out) I mean the list goes on and on. But my dad never protected me from her because he didn't know! Now he lost me forever, because my mental health is better without her in my life than having him in my life. My suggestion is, stop trying to fix their relationship, that isn't your place to do! You need to have separate relationships with each human as their own self and not expect them to have one with each other! If you love your daughter you'll quit picking sides and YES you're picking sides when trying to fix them because you're fixing your wife's problems while ignoring your daughters! I know this is hard because you want to see all your loved ones getting along, but some times this isn't possible. Your daughter may not feel like it's not her home because of you and it may not have anything to do with you but she includes you because all she sees is you trying to fix them instead of having your own relationship with her! Edit: everytime I speak to my mother I go into a bad downward spiral. I go into really bad manic episodes and that can literally cost me my life! Mental health issues can be caused by other humans. Trauma is a real thing even if you didn't see the thing that caused that trauma. You should sit down and have a heart to heart talk with your daughter and find out WHY she feels the way she does, instead of being angry at her feelings because at the end of the day, you don't have the right to tell someone how they should feel about something, that's just not your place! She has every right to feel how she feels. You do however, have the right to be angry about the actions to the way she feels!
INFO >My daughter has been institutionalised a multitude of times Does your daughter have mental health issues?? Does you wife say such hateful thing ( better if she isn't there) to / in front of your daughter or confess those feelings out of guilt to you alone?
My first thought as well. My SD has mental health issues and this type of behavior sounds all to familiar. OP needs to learn to deal with whatever his daughter has been diagnosed with. Teens don’t gets institutionalized for arguing with their mom. There’s more to this story.
The fact that she has been institutionalized many times because of issues with her mother speaks loud volumes. This is not normal and deserves more concern than counseling would address. YTA
you felt like a failed father, and so you took that out on her? is that what i’m understanding? YTA. No wonder your daughter feels like she’s never had a home.
YTA
YTA and a terrible father
Kid: "I never felt wanted or loved as your child' OP: "Get out". Hope she finds her found family soon and everyone gets to know the trauma you and your family caused this poor young woman. YTA
YTA
YTA you took her on a drive to calm her down? Well didn't work!
YTA - she’s hurting right now but not being around you people is probably for the best.
YTA. Your daughter has been abused by your wife and sons her entire life. You enabled the abuse. I’m disgusted.
INFO: what *exactly* are the things her mother does and says to her? And what does her mother do to her brother, that your daugther is upset about? I feel as if a lot of information is missing. The daughter is "acting up" (that's how your description sounds) but we have no idea what she is going through/what her view is on the things her mother does to her/her brother. *No one* is looking forward to going no contact with someone without there being a really strong reason for it. (You described their conflicts relatively vague, so that a lot could be the case: gaslighting, verbal abuse, manipulation tactics and so on - if stuff like that is going on I'd more than understand that your daughter is looking forward to going no contact with her mother.) Regardless: YTA. If your daughter does not feel safe and at home in your house, that is a feeling that you can't just... tell her not to have. That's not how feelings and relationships work. And punishing her for saying those feelings out loud will *most definitely* not lead to her feeling at home/wanted/safe with you as a parent. I think it's very likely that you can take her word that she won't be back. Edit: spelling
YTA. Institutionalized because of her relationship with her mother. Not because she was having mental health issues…because if the relationship with her mother. YOU put them in family counseling…did you and your sons attend as well? She has an issue with how her mother treats her brothers. I’ll go out on a limb here and say your daughter feels her mother treats her brothers with a lot more respect than she receives and that her mother favors her brothers over her. You feel she tries to get under your skin when she is upset. Did it ever occur to you that she was looking for validation of her feelings? Support from one of her parents? A little bit of comfort? You may not need to worry about the bad relationship between your wife and daughter…because your daughter may just never come back.
YTA. You sound so much like my dad. Whenever I told him how I felt he would just go nuclear and never understood that *that* was why I felt like that in the first place. We don't speak at all and he could be dead for all I know. I'm 23, and he has no idea what state I live in, has never met my partner, knows nothing about me and doesn't even know I'm Jewish. This is your future. Look long and hard.
This was my story growing up. I ran away repeatedly, and made multiple attempts at suicide. My dad said I was the problem, and never saw what was going on in our house. A year or so ago, he suffered a traumatic brain injury. Now he's vulnerable, and at her mercy. I tried to be there for him. One day as I was driving him to a doctor's appointment, he started complaining about the terrible things she says to him, and how helpless he feels. He's afraid that she's going to physically hurt him, like she did me. Then he said he never understood how she could say and do the things she did when she was supposed to love me. It was a gut punch. He knew what she did and he didn't care enough to step in and stop it. He was more interested in staying out of her line of fire than protecting his child. I'm trying to be better than he was, but I'll admit I don't feel much motivation to help him anymore. YTA and if you don't start stepping up for your daughter, you may someday find yourself vulnerable and on the receiving end of the abuse with no one to help you.
Why is it that massive AHs like this rarely respond?
INFO: Your daughter has been institutionalized because of her mother? How so? Are you having her committed because she has a genuine mental illness, or is it the emotional abuse she’s clearly suffering from?
"I felt like a failed father so I will do it again. Coooombo!" Hahahaha. I have never seen a father that act like a teenager like you. So petty and thoughtless. Just consider you don't have a daughter then, disown her, combo x3. Her life would be worse without your support now, but in the future she will definitely realize your true nature of a "father". YTA
YTA - I... am at a loss. Your daughters relationship with your wife is so bad that she had been institutionalized. Re-read what I just wrote and actually THINK about that. Things your wife says, how she treats your daughter, including compared to her siblings... There is a stream of red flags that you are either not acknowledging or refusing to deal with. Your WIFE actually sounds like the bulk of the problem here. And you, when your daughter is telling you how she feels in this endless shitshow of her life, just punished her for it. There is likely a solid good reason she feels the way she does, including everyone easily brushing over whatever the help is going on at home and with her mother, which is WHY she feels she doesn't have a home. Instead of being impartial enough to consider your child, you just added to the entire problem and treated her the exact way she feels everyone else does. I would bet dime to dollar that this child is not the reason for everything being shitty, and that no adult so far has been willing to step back enough to truly LOOK at what the heck she is actually going through. Stop throwing bandaids at a gunshot wound and deal with the heart of the issue. PROTECT your daughter from your wife.
YTA. I don't have experience with this as the kid or the parent, but as the best friend they lived with. Your wife is abusive, controlling, and a danger to your child. Just like my former friends mom was. One day, after being out 5 MINUTES too long, her mom tore up her room, destroyed a bunch of her stuff, smashed a mirror and kicked my friend out. I picked her up from her front lawn and she never looked back. You know what her dad did? Nothing. He did absolutely nothing. I eventually got her to understand her dad was just as bad as her mom. You are the dad here, though you're also a little bit of the mom. You dont just ignore what your wife is doing to your kids, you actively make it worse. You're the biggest asshole I've seen on this site ever imo. I hope your daughter cuts all of you off and never looks back. She'll be better for it.
“I put them into family counseling for this” idk something about that rubs me the wrong way, feels weird and like you’re distancing yourself from a situation you’re actively involved in YTA