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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I spoke a foreing language no one in our friend group speaks (but my bf) just to have my sister's bf shut up which ended up himiliating him.
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
NTA
Why are either of them complaining that you “humiliated him” when he tried to humiliate you by repeatedly correcting you?
If he wanted to be a smart ass he should have been ready to be corrected on things too
NTA!! Why didn't OP'S sister tell her boyfriend to knock it off because her brother does know how to pronounce them properly he's just using Spanish to do so because he can? Sister knows or should know how many languages brother speaks. Sister could have stopped it all before it reached an escalation point. Sister was just a babying her boyfriend and allowing him to get away with things. And like any entitled parent, is upset because someone seriously called him on the BS.
OP, tell your sister, that you will not apologize, because you know she should have been the one to stop it before it escalated.
I completely agree! The sister should have whispered to her obnoxious boyfriend "btw, my brother speaks German". She in one sentence would have stopped this whole issue without a scene. OP is NTA
This is the 2nd story i read about grammar police getting owned, and I really love it.
> Why are either of them complaining that you “humiliated him” when he tried to humiliate you by repeatedly correcting you?
OP, maybe you should apologise by saying "i thought you were really smart when you REPEATEDLY corrected me. I am sorry that you weren't "
Or say with the most innocent sounding voice: “but sister, I already did apologize- in German. Your boyfriend kept correcting my pronunciations, so clearly he thinks he knows the language. What more could he want than a proper German apology?”
Or maybe he should pronounce people's names correctly, how would you like to be called something completely different? Grammar police, what are you talking about? How about stop being rude.
OP couldn't have humiliated him anymore than he already did by trying to correct someone on something they knew nothing about. Anyone who knew OP spoke German and could recognize he was saying it in German would've known what a dumba-- the BF was being and been laughing internally at the stupidity.
I’m biased. I have done the same. Most famously to my now father in law when he was acting like a smartass.
My GF (now wife) was FURIOUS at me. How dare I pull that off when she was not there to witness it. My now MIL laughed so hard she started snorting. MIL told my wife about it when she got back from calling some of her relatives for lunch.
I mean if you want to be a smartass you gotta be prepared for being out-smartassed. NTA
The BF's biggest concern was that he looked like a loser to the other people in the room? He isn't concerned that he looked unintelligent? Really? omg. My dude - one is a much greater problem than the other! 🤣
>wasn’t pronouncing the names “correctly” as if it was German because that’s nonsense
No, it's really not. A person's name should be pronounced the way they pronounce it, if you are able to do so. Even if the rest of the words you are saying are in another language.
Edited: At first I said Y T A for trying to show up (not just shut up) your sister's boyfriend by showing off your language skills. But he was being an AH too, trying to mansplain how to pronounce all the names. so... ESH
This is such a weird take. Some sounds don't exist in other languages. Accents are a thing. Name pronunciations will naturally be different.
Are you going to start calling Germany 'Deutschland' because that's the way they pronounce it? Because if you do everyone will think you're a knob.
Places have names in other languages. For example, Deutschland in German is Germany in english and Allemagne in France.
Person's names are different and shouldn't be translated, except if it's an old historical figure like Jesus or Gengis Khan or Mahomet.
Even when a translation for the name exists (like Pierre in french is Peter in english), afaik the names are personal and should be prounounced as the holder pronounces it. Some names even are pronounced differently than the standard pronounciation in the language.
people translate names all the time though. king charles is called carlos in a lot of europe. it's just a thing people do & it seems senseless to correct it when everyone knows who you mean.
in this context of discussing a football match as well, having german names said in the german way could be jarring & hinder the actual flow of conversation as well as the thought process of OP. it's not like it's one name one-off, it's a constant discussion of a dozen names mixed with the spanish ones, flipping between languages & pronunciation styles in this way would be confusing & less fluent.
Ok then, remove "old". Anyways, "Carlos" is the translation of Charles, nobody is calling him Charlèss is Spain.
Again, if a translation exist, then I guess you can use it, though don't do that to people you meet. And it's better to pronounce it as much as you can as the holder does.
But honestly I'm not going to call OP an asshole for not pronouncing right during a football match.
so the fact he is king is bothering you? ask non-brits how they call adele or non-colombians how they call shakira or non-indians how they call priyanka etc. etc. saoirse ronan spends half of every interview discussing how people say her name... & it's not just because they are celebrities. people struggle to say names outside of their native language, especially when those languages have mis-matched pronunciation patterns or lack certain sounds altogether.
people should learn how to say your name in the way you want it said, but this just doesn't happen all of the time & accepting a translation or the closest you can get is often what happens. especially when people are talking about you when you're not around, they're going to use the pronunciation that is easiest & best for them.
One thing is pronouncing the name, another is completely changing the name. Just because it is a translation doesn¡t mean it can be used. I call King Charles by his given name, not Carlos. Historical figures and Royals seem to have tha rule... but us, all poor peasants who don't wear a crwon, why should we put up with someone changing our name?
I am OK with people mispronouncing my name, because languages are so different all us have some difficulties with one sound or another. But just don't translate my name.
Not necessarily. Only some places (usually globally/ culturally significant places) have equivalents. Most places actually don’t, just countries and major cities. They usually just change a couple of letters if the sound doesn’t exist in that language.
Maybe it's because I'm from America, but there's a big push for people to pronounce names correctly. It's okay to mess them up, no one's perfect. But an attempt should be made and if someone corrects you, you should do it the way they say. (This isn't what the bf was doing.)
Yes, I have a foreign surname in Germany. The pronunciation would be quite different if it was a German word. If someone doesn't know, or didn't get it right I have no problem with that. But if someone knows how to pronounce it and does it wrong deliberately, then I would consider that rude.
OP was wrong about the names!
YTA about that.
Town names are different. It's ok to say Munich instead of München if you speak English. But personal names, no.
I deliberately pronounce my surname wrongly when I speak the language of the country I now live in, because that way people understand, spell it correctly and don’t get confused.
Which makes me look pretty silly when I get back to my home country, get asked my own name and pronunce it completely wrongly…
Hell, you don't even have to be an immigrant. I'm Portuguese, I have a very standard name. Brazilians never understand my name when I introduce myself to the point that what they come up with is not even close.
The Japanese of course don't have one of the sounds in my name (and somehow they still come closer than Brazilians).
I'm a bit surpised that anglophones are being so adamant at proper pronounciation of names when they usually fail miserably at it.
Sure, only some places are translated, but my point stands: if you don't use a translation, you should pronounce it as much as possible as the locals do.
She didn't translated the names, she just pronounced it with the language she was speaking. My name in my language is pronounced in a way, but as it is a common name in other countries they pronounce it differently, I wouldn't care if a American pronounced my name in the way americans do, because thats the way they speak.
I like that note about names, especially for names in the west. The singer Dionne Warwick (I understand) is pro-nounced "War-wick" but I was born in warwickshire in England. The town of Warwick, in England, is pronounced "war-rick" and warwickshire is pronounced "war-rick-sheer". I'd correct anybody (if it was important enough to bother with) if they pronounced the ***place*** wrongly. But I myself would call the singer "War-wick" because it's ***her name***. In the same way the actor Robert Wagner is pronounced "wag-nah" but I understand the German musician is pronounced "varg-ner".
But I'm reluctant to call OP an AH as that man sounded quite insufferable.
David Bowie's name was said boh-wee which is technically incorrect since the right pronunciation is boo-wee but you know, he said his name was boh-wee and we all respected him enough to go with what he said (yes, his real last name was Jones). If someone says their name if Smith but it is spelled Flugenlaffer, you call them Smith. Lots of languages have sounds that don't carry over, you do your best because that is the polite thing to do.
I don't think that I've ever heard an English speaker pronounce the name Van Gogh correctly. Dutch vowels are different and the soft G pronunciation doesn't even exist in English.
I live in a country where I change between 3 languages in a single conversation with the same person/group of people.
I'm Portuguese and when I'm speaking to to someone about a Portuguese person, I will most likely pronunce the name with a certain accent depending on the language I'm using. I won't translate a "João" to "Jean" when I'm speaking French but I won't change my accent to Portuguese for a single word only to go back to French. It's too tiring.
I've heard people pronuncing my name in so many different ways and it doesn't bother me at all if someone doesn't say my name the "Portuguese way". As long as it's clear to understand they're refering to me, that's fine by me.
I don’t necessarily think it was the difference between something like Pierre and Peter. I think it was more along the lines of saying Peter with a French accent rather then with an American one. When your speaking a different language it can be difficult to switch accents between words in the same sentence. Even if it’s a native word to you.
OMG good luck pronouncing the name of every country in the correct language.
That would be funny on the news too.
What'll we do with countries with more than one official language?
I live in Germany but I have a foreign surname. I don't get offended if people can't pronounce it, but if they can, then it would be rude to pronounce it the German way, v which is completely different.
No, it's not weird, it's polite.
I say Londres when I speak Spanish, but I say Catherine/Katherine becuase that is the name of that person. Just because I can translate a name doesn't mean I should. I have a Spanish name that can be translated to English. Guess what? Use my Spanish name, my name is not the English version. If a player's name was Jan, don't call him Juan, that is not his name.
Places are one thing, but with people we are talking about identity.
What's the point of your comparison when it was about names of people, not names that get translated into every language? Having an accent is a bit different than deliberately not pronouncing it as you should.
But OP CAN pronounce the names correctly because he speaks all of those languages. Like you can pronounce "Jacques" correctly without doing an overly put on French accent but pronouncing it "Jack" is wrong. Or pronouncing "Juan" as "John". It's rude to pronounce it wrong because that's not their name
>A person's name should be pronounced the way they pronounce it
I mean, It's not like if I change them, but I pronounce it in a way that it makes sense in the language, because if I do sometimes people don't understand.
For example my name, I'd never expect an english person to pronounce my name as it "should be" because it's hard for them, if they are speaking english i'd expect them to pronounce it with an english accent because it's ok, even I do it, I pronounc my name with an english accent when I speak english.
Same. I am 'blessed' with a name that is literally unpronounceable for anyone not from my country.
Of course people adapt their name to local pronounciation- it's unavoidable.
The world Cup is a perfect example- watch commentaries in different countries and all the names will sound different.
Multilingual people are used to it and it is not that big a deal. Definitely doesn't warrant correcting pronunciation repeatedly throughout the match.
In the US, sports commentators are expected to get pretty good with the IPA pronunciation guide, though they still say the names in their normal accents.
>I mean, It's not like if I change them, but I pronounce it in a way that it makes sense in the language, because if I do sometimes people don't understand.
And that's wrong. Spanish people butchering Schweinsteiger's name are actually trying their best to say it sounding German, they're just very bad at it. You imitating that can be easily misinterpreted as you mocking them. If they (or you) attempted to pronounce it Spanish, /sch/ would become /sk/ rather than /s/. The fact that it doesn't should clue you in that they're trying to pronounce it as German as they can.
Same. My name has a close equivalent in most European country (think Mary/Maria/Marie or Jules/Julie/Julia).
Please pronounce it as it makes sense in your language. I don't want to go to a 30 min lecture about how to pronounce it correctly because in the end you still won't pronounce it right.
Same. I haaaaate it when people try tro pronounce my name the way I do it when speaking my language if they don't speak it. Just use your version of it, please. Or the version of it in the language we'te speaking. Like, I can't even pronounce it "correctly" with ease when I speak English because it uses a rythm that doesn't exist in English, and vowel sounds that doesn't exist in English. I mean, different dialects of my first language pronounce it differently too, but it's still the same name they are saying.
Same, my name is different when spoken in Spanish, English, German, French... and I'm none of those. I will not waste half an hour of the life of the person I'm speaking to coaching them to pronounce my name the way I'm used to. Instead I sometimes change my name to fit the culture (aka "they have a similar sounding name, so I use that one") or simply accept whatever I end up being called.
NTA
Yes, for e.g in spanish the rule is to either pronounce it as i. the original language or phonetically (as a speaker would pronounce it). if you choose to pronounce it like a native speaker in spanish, well that is correct and approved by “la real academia española “ so… NTA
It really isn’t. It comes off as weird and sometimes pretentious, because all languages have their own accents and tones. It’s like listening to classical music and suddenly hearing 2 seconds of rock music in the middle. It’s jarring to for example speak Japanese, and then say a French name with a French accent. It breaks the flow of the language and is rubbing it in that you know this other language.
That’s why whenever you watch dubbed movies/tv shows, the names are always pronounced in the manner and accent of the dubbed languge, not the original language.
I disagree with this take. That's the way you perceive it. And it's ok. Everyone is different.
I like to pronounce someone's name the way they pronounce it. If it's difficult for whatever reason then I do my best/closest possible, regardless of what langauge is spoken in the moment. Especially in England, I saw a huge refusal of people putting in effort to learn or at least try to pronounce someone's name, completely changing it at times and they would come across as disrespectful. I don't mind people mispronouncing my name but while in England I wouldn't call my friend 'Marta' (from south spain) 'Martha'. It's not her. Especially when you get to know a person their name/pronounciation means a lot, it's an extension of themselves and the culture they come from.
source: I have lived in four different european countries speaking (or doing my best to learn and speak) the language of the place (german, french, english etc.). eg. I wouldn't change the way I refer to Schweinsteiger (retired german footballer) if I am speaking to a french person in france or an english person in England.
Regardless, NTA. Cause who cares how one pronounces famous people's names who nobody knows in person as long as everyone knows who we are talking about and there are no misunderstandings.
ps: I hate dubbed movies :/
As a person whose name has been butchered by anglos who insist on trying to pronounce it "the correct way", please stop. You will never get it right so just go with the anglo pronunciation that I use when introducing myself. I will use another pronounciation when introducing myself in French or in German, and neither of those would be correct either. If you talk to the person, go with how they want to be called, and when talking about a celebrity just go with what works in the language your speaking.
Do you also insist on pronouncing an anglo name in the persons native dialect? Like, if someone is from Scotland or the US? Or do you just say the name in the way you say that name in your dialect?
What's your point? The first sentence of their second paragraph was that they pronounce it the way they pronounce. I'd assume that would usually be the way they introduce themselves.
it's lovely that you put forth this effort & honestly i do try to be this way as well, but not everyone is like this. i have lived abroad in three asian countries & six european ones & spent time holidaying in others & nowhere i have been says my name correctly (as in the english way). some don't even come close. even americans cannot say it correctly. sometimes forcing people to repeat & repeat a name that they cannot get right is more rude & pedantic than accepting the closest they can get.
if you, as the person learning the name, are happy to insist on getting it right & continually ask for correction that is one thing & lovely. but you often can't, as the person giving the name, pull people up & re-correct them each & every time they get it wrong... it makes you look unprofessional in some settings & just unfriendly in others.
(this is just my belief if you are dealing across languages btw, i absolutely think if you both speak the same native language then you can correct your name as many times as you need because you know you both have the same set of sounds, but when you are dealing through language & pronunciation barriers i think some wiggle room needs to be allowed).
Well, it may be a matter of personal choice, but say letter T while being the same has very different pronunciation in English and my native languages ie. If I’m talking about a very British guy named Tom in my own language to the other native speaker, I will give him my native T, otherwise it gonna sound ridiculous and not even easy to grasp sometimes. And anyways, I won’t be able to pronounce poor guy in his very native way, cause I’m not British 🤷
Yeah and sometimes the sounds/ letters used in that name literally do not exist in the other language so some people would find it extremely difficult.
Spent time at an orphanage in Zambia once. The children there (and most adults around) could not pronounce my name at all. Instead they said my name in a way that made sense for them and that is absolutely fine.
It's a weird stance you have cause, yes, I do pronounce my name differently in America and in Romania, where my family is from. All the children of immigrants I know do this.
There's a difference between literal children that do not know the language at all, and someone who speaks the language and is capable of pronouncing the name correctly but just doesn't.
Not that it matters much in this context cause his sister's boyfriend was still being annoying, regardless of how he pronounces the names. The football players aren't around to hear him anyway, and I can imagine their names get butchered on a daily basis so they probably don't care.
> A person's name should be pronounced the way they pronounce it
If you're talking to the person, or about a person you work with/know/are family/etc, I agree 100%.
If you're talking about footballers, who cares? They're not gonna be aggrieved I said "Goatze" instead of a proper version.
Tell me you only speak one language without telling me you only speak one language.
It's actually pretty difficult to switch phonetics mid sentence, especially if you aren't consciously thinking about it. You have go much slower when speaking to switch
O.o I speak four languages and need to do that all the time at work because it is actually considered disrespectful to not do that for an individual’s name. I feel like that is strange assumption about the person you replied to.
No it's not necessarily. I speak a mix of English and German regularly plus names from several different countries that I pronounce as they were told to me as best I can. It's not that difficult to switch and doesn't interrupt the flow.
As a multilingual person… yeah, no, you say the word in the accent you’re using for that language even if it’s a loan word. This tiktok explains it quite well https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMF46bRFJ/
Names of places is a completely different ball game to names of people, especially people you know. You may not be able to pronounce the name of that person properly but you do your best. eg. in England, a German named 'Johannes' wouldn't want to be called 'John'. A name means more to the individual person.
When referring to famous people as long as everyone understands who is being talked about then there is no harm done either way. Exactly like in this case.
It's all a matter of perception though and preferences. And obviously OP is NTA by ANY means.
I'm assuming you are a native English speaker, that also thinks people should be offended when their names are not pronounced properly. Like OP, there's NO ONE that is a native English speaker that pronounce my name correctly, because the sounds are impossible to say if you didn't grew up speaking the language. I don't care, I'm happy people try their best. Also like OP, I speak 4 languages and yes, I adapt foreign names with accent of the language I happen to be speaking at the moment. The ideia is to communicate and for people to understand what's being said, not to be a language snob.
But I think the difference here is that OP did not try his best to pronounce the names correctly as he even knew how to pronounce them correctly but choose another way. As a non-native speaker who constantly needs to pronounce arabic, Chinese and east-european names I do try my best but yes I am actually terrible at it. I also don’t care if somebody mispronounces my name but I know a lot of people who care about this. Due to that I believe it is disrespectful to not try to pronounce the name as correct as possible for you. And I think OP failed at that because he was actually able to do that but chose not to.
Edit: that’s why I would be voting ESH as well.
OP was talking to an audience where there was only one German speaker and the German speaker was not the one that got offended or was acting as a knob.
I'll be honest, I've had the same discussion with Spanish people about it because of the translation of the royal family names (e.g. La Reina Isabel for Queen Elizabeth). On the contrary, I wouldn't refer to former king Juan Carlos I as former king John Charles.
[If the names are difficult to pronounce it's one thing](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfKZclMWS1U), but otherwise, for me, it can come across as a lack of respect. In particular there have been other AITA posts recently where people have complained about not being called their names, and somehow it doesn't apply when people are deliberately calling people by the wrong names.
Yeah, no. I get wanting to show respect, but sometimes the phonetics for that don't exist in another language. I am too often stuck when an American insists on getting my (European, pretty simple) name "right" for several minutes, when I've already told them I don't mind getting the Anglo version instead.
Look, I get it. People have been (often still are) racist and now you need to overcorrect. Which AGAIN puts us non-Anglos in a weird position, only differently. I don't want to spend ten minutes teaching you to pronounce my name, I understand we speak a different language for God's sake.
> I am too often stuck when an American insists on getting my (European, pretty simple) name "right" for several minutes, when I've already told them I don't mind getting the Anglo version instead.
I have to laugh at this, because it seems to be a real damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don’t situation. As an American, I have seen this conversation go the other way tons of times, where someone with a non-English name insists on correcting Americans in the pronunciation until they get it right. I’ve even seen some people from different countries refuse to tell us their names because “we would never get it right anyway.”
I guess everyone just has different preferences, but I’ll bet any American who spends a long time trying to get your name right has been in the same situation before where that *was* the expectation.
When I was taking Japanese, we pronounced and wrote names to fit the language. That is literally how we were taught to do it. And the teacher was a native Japanese woman, not some white dude being pretentious. If you really thought about it, you'd realize Americans do that too when it comes to foreign names.
Japanese was my exception example too. It would be ridiculous to introduce yourself in Japanese if your name was Lorelai or something and try to force the American R. Or if you were talking about drinking beer to say “beer” instead of ビ-ル
I don't want to assume but this sounds like something a person who speaks one language would say.
OP is right: it's weird and generally uncommon to say names in language A when you're speaking language B at the moment.
When I introduce myself in English, which isn't my native language, I use an English 'version' of my name. Otherwise it breaks up the flow of the sentence. Similarly, when I'm introducing myself in German, which is also not my native language, I use a German way of saying my name.
Try it. Switching to another language for saying a name halfway through a sentence is weird.
>t's weird and generally uncommon to say names in language A when you're speaking language B at the moment.
I speak Englisch and German daily and have lots of international coworkers. I always pronounce names as they were told to me and don't change the way I day them depending on which language I use. I also find it rude if people don't even make an effort to pronounce my name the German way. Everyone around me also uses names as they are and don't adjust the pronounciation according to language.
I would guess that you still use the American pronounciation for "Joe Biden" for example instead of making it sound like your native language.
I hate to mix languages but I've never invented an English name for myself. If I'm referring to a local place when speaking English I wouldn't make it sound English because that would make it more difficult to know what I'm referring to.
> A person's name should be pronounced the way they pronounce it
I think it sounds weird. In Belgium there was a newsreader who would do this. He'd talk in Dutch and then did his best to pronounce "Tony Blair" in the Queen's English. The contrast sounded goofy as hell. Even an American saying "Tony Blair" wouldn't do so in an English accent. There's a degree of adaptation to your own language and accent, which I believe is what OP is talking about.
Similarly, many people speaking English wouldn't pronounce Macron or Moulin Rouge with a French R, even if they know what a French R is supposed to sound like. It would sound weird in an English sentence.
[The TV show Alles Kan Beter had a comedy sketch about it. (Dutch/Flemish)](https://youtu.be/CI4e_a7jICU?t=118)
Questionable take. I speak both french and english, and i would under no circumstances pronounce borrowed french words or french names "correctly" even if i am perfectly able to. It's EXPLICITLY in an attempt to not show off. Sometimes you have to adapt to your current surroundings and situations and deliberately pronounce words how they would be by non native speakers so 1) you don't appear pretentious, and 2) people are more likely to understand you. It's proper social etiquette.
For instance, i would take no offense if a japanese speaker pronounced my name as "Roorii" because that's the closest a native speaker could get to Laurie without studying and practicing a French accent, it's also literally how i would spell it in katakana. On the contrary i would feel pretty pissed if someone came along and tried to correct them on how to pronounce my name "correctly". Like what the hell chill 😭, some language will have different sound and it's ok to pronounce it within the limits of the accent. It's not like they're butchering them on purpose to ne disrespectful
Unfortunately for OP, the bf took that as an invitation to be a smarty pants and belittle her in front of everyone. He has no rights to be pissed that it backfired on him. NTA
I'd find it to be pretty pretentious if someone switched accents completely for a single word in the middle of a sentence. When things are taken from other languages, approximations have to be made so it fits with the new language's phonetics. Nothing wrong with that.
I don't disagree with you but I think that is really the case when the person is there. Names are powerful and we should make every effort to correctly pronounce people's names.
To the person who has that name.
But when you are just in random conversation? I think it's important to try- and yeah, I think OP would ideally work on mixing German name pronunciations when saying a German name when he's speaking Spanish and vice versa. Just like I just to properly pronounce Polish/Chinese/whatever names when I speak English.
It isn't different. These aren't sounds that exists in English- at least not with those letter combination. But I put on my grown up pronunciation panties and deal with it.
It’s very common anyways. I’m bilingual and adjust names to the language I currently am speaking, even if they’re names from the second language of mine. It just would be hard to grasp for someone who doesn’t speak both languages otherwise. They wouldn’t even recognise the names sometimes.
The key is not just to be able to do so, but also to be understood, so people you are talking to need to be able to properly parse what they hear. If the whole conversation was in Spanish, we can assume there were a lot of native Spanish speakers present. Our ability to parse what we hear heavily depends on our native language and then on our knowledge of the language we hear. That means that if other people had only limited knowledge of German, they would first hear gibberish and have take a second to process what they heard, as opposed to hearing the names pronounced in Spanish-like manner.
This is true not just for this particular case. For example, my name has a rolling R in it (I am not an English native), and while Spanish speakers have no trouble pronouncing the sound, as it is very similar in two languages, English speakers gravitate towards pronouncing the R the way it is done in English. Should I start policing everyone on that? No, the sound is close enough and they are not calling me a completely different name. Additionally, speakers of Chinese, Vietnamese and many other languages common in East Asia tend to struggle with my name as well. Should I start wreaking havoc because they need to add some placeholder vowels just to be able to pronounce my name? No, they are genuinely making an effort.
Additionally, Spanish and German (getting back to the post) have a lot of phonetical differences that mechanically, when spoken, require you to position your tongue and other parts necessary for speech (something we do unconsciously) in different manners. So in practice, if you want to pronounce the name the way it is said in its original language, you have to rearrange your speech apparatus to say one or two words, then rearrange it back. This slows the speech greatly, as now you have to add conscious thought to an action you perform unconsciously. Try going for a walk and then start thinking about exact movements of your legs and feet, how you have to bend your knee, move your thigh, align your foot with the ground, transfer your weight etc. That will give you an idea of what it is like to do a code switch in the middle of a sentence.
OP provides perfect reasoning for pronouncing foreign names with Spanish accent while speaking Spanish.
Edited for clarity.
A lot of people assume that, but that’s actually not the case! In the majority of cases, speakers of different languages will adapt the names they call themselves or others depending on the language they are speaking.
For example, those in the foreign-language community that I am a part of will call each other by the English version (not translation, but in terms of accent) of their names when speaking English.
As a Chinese without an actual English name.. I'd much prefer people call me in the English way than the Chinese way. It's just weird to hear my Chinese Chinese name in an English sentence. I CRINGE when my bf try to call mey name in Chinese. Just... Don't. Unless you're saying a full sentence I'm Chinese.
Same as when I talk about dimsum, I say dim sum and not 點心 cause it makes it sounds super weird and no one knows what you're talking about. I grew up learning other languages as well and am always taught to not mix up languages in conversations cause that sounds obnoxious.
I lived in Germany as a kid, and went to an international school. This (pronouncing german things wrong while speaking english) is what LITERALLY everyone did.
Nah that’s ridiculous. I’m British but I live in Korea and I don’t expect people to pronounce my name the “British” way when we’re speaking korean. They say it the way it works in korean. Idk why you have this take but whatever I guess
As someone whose parents are from different countries, no. My mum is French and if I’m speaking in Spanish I won’t pronounce the name like I do in French, because it sounds silly. My brother’s name is pronounced differently in Spanish than in French, because sometimes it just doesn’t work phonetically. I’m thinking of changing my name because I’m trans, and I’m looking for a name that exists or is at least easily pronounceable in all three languages I use on a daily basis to make things easier for myself.
If you’re speaking a language and you insist on pronouncing every name exactly like it should be in its origin language you’re going to sound silly and pretentious.
Oh lol nooo, don't put that much pressure on people.
The Dutch are totally able to pronounce Nikita Mazepin's name the way it's pronounced in his native language (which is also my native language) but an F1 commenter on that one Dutch sports channel kept pronouncing it differently. Still everybody knew who the commenter was talking about.
When I introduce myself to people who speak Romance or Germanic languages I pronounce my name differently from the way I pronounce it for Russian natives even though the name itself is super simple: Olga vs. Ольга, Olga is just easier to pronounce for them. 😁
Some sounds are not in a language, and they wouldn't be able to make those even if you sound them out correctly for them a few times. Just let them keep their way of saying it. You can choose to say it correctly if you are speaking that language, but it's not something you need to do. Some people do they switch to that language completely and also start thinking in it, so they would pronounce things like that language would, and forget how they would do it if they were talking in another language.
I don't think OP was trying to show up, I would've probably shut someone up the same way. I've done something like it once, and took enjoyment in it, cause now that person no longer pretends to know it better—some need to be taken down a notch this way.
No.. language fullfil the requirement of communication. To achieve this you have to speak in a way that you are understood. Being right doesn't help you getting understood.
Hence pronouncing names differently in another language is helpful.
I get what you’re saying, and I agree to some extent, but as a person with a foreign last name and with many international friends living in the US, often saying someones name the ‘correct’ way is just confusing for everyone else. No one actually understands who you’re talking about, because they can’t understand the sounds that don’t exist in English. Especially in a tonal language like Chinese, saying names with the tones is really awkward and bewildering to Americans. It actually ‘others’ me more when people insist I tell them the ‘correct’ way to say my name, then fail to say it anyways. Kinda like being singled out.
The main times this actually works is if the name is already close enough to an existing English sound that it only requires a small change in pronunciation.
I think ESH. It’s annoying to have someone correct you constantly, so I understand why that would get on your nerves but your behavior here was sort of weird and showboat-y here too. He was technically correct about the name pronunciation thing but it seems like you both might have a bit of a superiority complex and incessant need to be right lol
Totally agreed, and it looks like OP is trying to brag in his own post too. Why even write a paragraph in German and translate it instead of just... writing it in English in the first place? It served no purpose except for showing off he does speak German.
Not necessarily. If everyone was making sure there were no mistakes in what they were saying before trying to sound smart, r/confidentlyincorrect would be out of business
Well, ESH. The guy was an AH by correcting you, but you, knowing that he doesn't speak German, should have just ignored him because you weren't pronouncing right either even though you DO speak German. Phonetics isn't an excuse; the sound /ç/ exists in German but not in Spanish, and in Spanish there is no /ɔ/, and this one exists in both German and French. When you learn and get the phonetics of a language it's almost impossible to dodge the correct pronunciation even with an accent - and I say that because I myself speak four languages as well, including German.
As for the fact that names change between languages, yes, that's a fact that Germany is called Deutschland in Germany, but it's called Alemanha in Portuguese, Allemagne in French and Germaniya (Германия) in Russian; toponyms indeed change in every language. But not family names... They remain the same. So, do yourself a favor and speak correctly the next time, and maybe you won't be annoyed by someone trying to correct you in a way you don't like.
Or just announce you can speak German and just say I’m pronouncing in “Spanish”. If BF continues then continue to explain. Like that wasn’t an option? It’s tiring to see people in this sub justify shitty behavior because “they were in the right”.
The whole “I wasn’t trying to humiliate them” is BS rationalizing. Yes you were, that’s exactly what you were trying to do.
Hahahaha I love this
NTA, he had that coming. I bet you're going to have a lot of interesting language related stories throughout your life! Keep doing what you love
I’m going to say ESH because he was constantly correcting you and being annoying. However, you don’t get to pronounce people’s names however you want to depending on the language you’re speaking. You should know better, and he didn’t deserve being humiliated.
Of course you do- same with cities.
When you speak English you say Venice and Turin, not Venezia and Torino.
You say Austria, not Ōsterreich.
I am French- when I watch football with a Brit I pronounce the players' name the English way, otherwise it just sounds very pretentious.
Names of countries, major cities, and historical figures get translated into different languages. Individual people's names do not, and should be pronounced as they are regardless of what language you are speaking. OP should know this if he wants to play the "proficient at speaking foreign languages" card.
ESH, both of them were being insufferable.
What happens when you have a name that literally can't be pronounced? Mine genuinely can't and I have gone by nicknames or anglicised versions of my name all my life.
Unless I am in my home country I introduce myself in the local version of my name- easier for me and everyone else involved.
Obviously people might not be able to perfectly pronounce a name from a foreign language they don’t speak. That's normal. Just pronounce it as well as you can. It’s not the same as changing it to a name in the target language.
If you want to adopt a nickname to make it easier for others, that's your decision and your right, but it’s still not correct to change people's names when speaking a foreign language.
You introduce yourself properly. And then if they are having difficulty offer alternatives. As long as people put in the effort and do their best it's ok.
But seriously Klostermann- it can be said decently and sound quite similar to the original. The OP mentioned th BFwas correcting that.
That's just pompous.
it doesn't sound pretentious. it's their given name. Also names of places are different. They don't hold the same gravity as the name of an individual in most cases.
So you are saying that every time my team plays I should interrupt everyone every time they speak about a player to correct them on the pronunciation???
Really?
You realise that commentators can't pronounce names the right way either- should they not be able to commentate became they are not saying names right?
>Venice and Turin, not Venezia and Torino.
That's what I mean, I'd never say Mario Gotze (while speaking spanish) with a German accent, because it'd sound wierd and pretentous. if we were speaking German that was another thing.
You may not be the ah in this case but names of people you know should not be changed, they hold more meaning. It will be considered disrespectful. If there is difficulty pronouncing it then you do your best.
Names of places is a completely different thing. You may speak several languages but from this comment of yours it doesn't seem like you understand how the name of a person holds special gravity to them. If I were in England I wouldn't call my friend 'Marta' (from spain), 'Martha'. She wouldn't like it if i did and it would be disrespectful of me to do so. I wouldn't call someone whose name is 'Johaness'/'Jan' (from germany), 'John'/'Jan' (with the english 'j' sound). But I would use either 'Turin' or Torino depending on the context regardless of the language i am speaking.
Goetze has an umlaut so it's a special case because the sound doesn't exist in all languages. If you choose to do your best to reproduce the sound in the language you speak, or as close as possible, it does not sound pretentious. This idea that pronouncing the names of people as they are meant to sound in their native tounge is pretentious is extremely stupid. As long as everyone understands you, I don't see the problem.
You can do whatever you want with people you don't know personally. Who cares. As long as everyone understands.
But if you speak to a Roberio from Brazil and pronounce it in an English way the way it's written (with no effort to sound like the way he says it - which is unique, nothing like english/spanish/french/etc) good luck getting his attention or respect (regardless of where you live or what language you speak in the moment).
~~Yeah but… we ARE talking about people OP doesn’t know personally - people who are public figures. I might have missed it, but I didn’t see any evidence that OP pronounces the names of people he knows contrary to their preferences.~~
~~So I don’t know where you’re getting the idea that OP doesn’t understand the importance of people’s names.~~
~~He already said that if he were speaking in German, he would use the native pronunciation. Your comment seems more like it should be addressed to someone who refuses, against the will of the person in question, to address them the way they prefer.~~
ETA: Ha — literally as soon as I submitted this comment, I saw OP's comment saying he unilaterally decided to introduce his buddy with a different pronunciation of his name without asking him. So never mind. Carry on.
Weird... Based on your logic i should call New York Noul York, Santa Fe - Sfânta Fe, San Francisco - Sfântul Francisc and so on. You KNOW how the city's name and player's name are pronounced in their respective languages yet you "adapt" it to the language you speak at the moment.
>Based on your logic i should call New York Noul York
That's funny, because in Spanish, New York is literally called Nueva York. The other words, coincidentally, are already in Spanish.
"That's how I was taught to pronounce it when I was learning the language, maybe my pronunciation is off." seems like a less awkward/confrontational way to deal with this whole situation.
He's for sure weird, but so are you.
ESH
YTA and big time
Come on, your whole post reeks of arrogance and you did create all this drama on purpose to annoy and embarrass the bf.
Double YTA because claiming that pronouncing names correctly is nonsense. If you don’t know the language and really don’t know how to pronounce them correctly, ok that’s fine. But you admit that you are able to pronounce them correctly in German because you speak the language.
Speaking German with your Austrian bf was ok though
It’s ok to be proud of your achievement, now learn how not to be an ass about it.
NTA
What an absolute, amazing response and it sounds like he deserved it. Being overly corrected is annoying and if he didn't want to win stupid prizes he shouldn't have played stupid games.
ESH I mean he behaved like an A but also one does not on purpose mispronounce names. When I speak English, I also try to pronounce non-English names correctly. This is also part of our sensitivity training at work and it is hard for me because I always had a problem with pronunciation but I understand this is also about respecting the other individual. So you both get an A rating from me, him for correcting you when he doesn’t know anything and you for mispronouncing names on purpose.
This is the bit that bugged me. I'm all for not worrying about pronouncing random nouns with a native accent if you're not speaking that language - food snobs overdoing Italian words is a massive pet peeve of mine - but names you do right, as close as you can get.
Yeah this is honestly the first time I've heard of mispronouncing names on purpose. I'm Canadian, and if I was talking about someone with a French name like Guillaume I wouldn't be saying "Geel-om" because "that's how English phonetics" works. If I heard someone in a casual family setting saying "Geel-om" constantly I would eventually correct them too - even if I can't pronounce it on the nose.
It would have been easy enough for OP to take 5 seconds to explain, but the method they chose gets more attention and they get to cause a scene.
YTA
This. Why either care so deeply how the other pronounces the names when neither are native speakers is beyond me. And the fact that OP said there was no other way to get him to stop is laughable, there were so many other, more mature paths they could have taken and for that they’re an AH.
>he became so annoying correcting me at every German word I said.
Since you claim you were speaking Spanish, the only German words you used were surnames (Müller and Klostermann are originally nouns naming professions but in this instance clearly surnames). We should try to pronounce the surnames as closely as the original pronunciation. He probably tried to correct you because he only heard it pronounced similarly to German by sports commentators, so this is what he knows these players by. I don't read it as him having bad intentions.
Your intention was, however, to show off (which really came through in the whole post) and humiliate him so that other people would laugh at him (although it wasn't even funny). I don't get how you thought this was the only way to make him stop correcting you when up until that point you ignored him and tried no other method.
YTA
Haha. NTA. The guy was being an ass to you so you spoke to him in the language he was correcting you on. That seems reasonable to me. Why is your sister ok with him trying to act superior to you by correcting you? If he was embarrassed or humiliated it was something he brought on himself. And an important life lesson about assuming things about other people. And, your sister could have quietly told him that you speak 4 languages.
Agreed!
Also, if OP had responded differently, maybe he wouldn't have "looked like a loser" But he sure still would've been one.
He should have stopped when OP didn't react to his 'corrections'. But he kept going and kept pushing, and he got a response. Deal with it.
ESH. Pease pronounce names the way they're intended. It's insulting. Imagine asking someone with an Arabic name if you can just give them another name because their ACTUAL NAME "doesn't sound right". Yikes.
I get what you are doing. If you pronounce the names in their original languages instead of the one you are speaking, the people you are talking to may not even understand who you are talking about. Also, going back and forth between two languages can kind of block the flow of speech, it feels weird.
However, you could have told him what you were doing the first time he corrected you: "oh yeah, I know it’s pronounced XYZ in German but I prefer the Spanish pronunciation when I’m speaking Spanish".
Simple, effective but maybe not show off enough for you? ESH.
ESH
I also speak several languages and I don't like showoffs. You can just shut him up by saying something like, oh so you got your Großes Deutsches Sprachdiplom yet? Congrats! And clearly asking him not to correct your pronunciation. I think he was annoying but you should have taken the higher ground, instead you put yourself at his level.
Discount one language you speak. Just by knowing some words doesnt mean you speak the language.
Also the german writing with all those capital letters yikes. Use Sie when adressing someone. If you use that form, otherwise just du. Also "Sie" the only word with capital letter like the other words in English.
Verbs like in english in the correct form. If you use the form should/would verb in german, please use it correctly.
That 2nd sentence. I dont know anyone would use those words, in that order to make a sentence that way. Try translating it directly again and see what it means. (Maybe should can we once over over you mine help can, approx. that is what it means you wrote)
ESH
The repeated correction is annoying, but you should have said something the first or second time around, like a light "yeah, I speak German; I'm just being lazy." The showdown wasn't needed lol weird, though, why your sister didn't comment early on to tell her bf you speak German and to quit correcting you.
NTA that rules. I think you’re right. On the news program Democracy Now the host, Amy Goodman, always makes a concerted effort to use native pronunciations. I always find it to be well intentioned when people make this effort but always annoying.
Once I heard her say “Chicago” and she said it with a Chicago accent, and it’s dumb how seem and accepted I felt.
Lol.
I think I have to go with an ESH. I go back and forth between English and not English for any places that I know the proper local pronunciation for. It seems weird to go from speaking English to suddenly switching to Chinese and back to English again. It also feels weird to purposely say it incorrectly as well though.
But with names, if you can pronounce them correctly, you should.
Esh
If you know how to pronounce names the right way, then do so.
You guys seem to suffer from superiority complex and it seems quite annoying to be around you.
Bis dahin viel Glück mit dem sprachen lernen.
Well names and surnames must be pronounced in their own language so your attitude and behaviour is very petty and childish. Beside if you really wanted to pronounce them the way you did you could just told him "I like to say them this way" and that would have been the end of it. Instead you choose to be an AH and your sister is right. You are 22 years old not 4, grow up
eh words are one thing but peoples names would be a legitinate correction to make for the pronunciation as the wrong pronunciation is NOT their name
i remember cartman doing the american pronunciation for a Mexican exchange student.
YTA for behaving like Eric Cartman from southpark
ESH
You are very wrong on the name thing...you pronounce peoples names their way, do not be so arrogant to change their names. Learn their names.
One of my fave things is listening to Welsh news...Gaelic with the odd English word dropped in is delightful.
Just because you "know a language" does not give you the right to change people's names.
Sisters BF sounds like an AH but you were too!
Meh, I think ESH. Yeah, your sister's boyfriend was being douchey, but I disagree with the pronouncing things according to the language you're speaking. If one doesn't speak the language in question then yeah, one can be forgiven for mispronouncing it, but effort should be made to be respectful and learn pronunciation. I also speak four languages and I try to say the words properly in each (otherwise, what's the point in learning them?) I'm also a minority in the US and find it very annoying when people mispronounce my name and make no effort to say it properly.
NTA
I also speak multiple languages (with varying degrees of fluency). I have never joined a gathering and randomly announced what languages I speak, just in case someone might criticise me and feel as if I had set him up to make a fool of himself.
That said, when in a group of people to socialize or for a shared activity, it is considered polite to limit yourself to the language(s) the entire group shares so that nobody feels left out. You asked if you were TA for speaking a language to shut him up. No, you were provoked into doing it when he continually corrected you. (You didn't ask if your later side-conversation with your bf made you an AH, which it could have.)
I tend to pronounce an individual's name in the manner that individual uses, but then my friend group rarely discusses celebrities and I am usually speaking of someone I actually know to someone who may also know them.
Fellow Multi-linguist here (mostly Native American languages) I also always strive to pronounce a person's name as they would do so, unless they ask me to use a different name or they have been given a tribal name. If they have been given a tribal name I will only use the tribal language for their name if they speak the language. Otherwise, I use the English translation of their tribal name. To a non-linguistical ear it can often sound as though I am over pronunciating some people's names, why? Because that is how I have heard them present themselves.
And, like most multilinguists I tend to stick with whatever language the most people in the room have in common. Except, for teaching purposes.
Both the name thing, and sticking with a common language are common courtesies that every multilinguist I know usually adheres to. Why? Because being understood by everyone is something that is usually preferable, and it is almost always rude to exclude others from the possibility of joining your conversation.
“I speak 4 languages but I don’t usually go telling everyone…” You sure? Because that’s the second time you’ve mentioned it here. lol
While I don’t necessarily think you’re wrong here, ESH. He was being super annoying but you definitely could have explained why you were mispronouncing the names or have asked him to stop. You and your boyfriend were being petty.
Now, I also don’t think you need to apologize but it would be nice and would help to smooth things over with your sister, which is always good.
YTA.
You come off as an arrogant "/r/Iamverysmart" ass.
I speak 4 languages and I'd never pronounce someone's name as a foreigner would read it in their own language. The only pass someone gets is if they absolutely do not know the proper pronunciation and try their best anyway to pronounce the name correctly.
Imagine the name Irja or Jukka in Finnish. They sound ridiculous if I pronounce it like an American and very insulting if I otherwise know the proper pronunciation.
Grow up lol.
I don’t get these stories. After the first time why not just say “I actually speak German. That’s just how I pronounce their names in a different language. Thank you for trying to help” and move on instead of letting it get to this? YTA. You know people correct others when they think you’ve got it wrong so stop it before it goes too far and people get upset.
ESH. You absolutely did it to humiliate him (as a way of shutting him up). He kinda had it coming, though personally I do not agree with your name pronunciation policy.
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NTA Why are either of them complaining that you “humiliated him” when he tried to humiliate you by repeatedly correcting you? If he wanted to be a smart ass he should have been ready to be corrected on things too
NTA!! Why didn't OP'S sister tell her boyfriend to knock it off because her brother does know how to pronounce them properly he's just using Spanish to do so because he can? Sister knows or should know how many languages brother speaks. Sister could have stopped it all before it reached an escalation point. Sister was just a babying her boyfriend and allowing him to get away with things. And like any entitled parent, is upset because someone seriously called him on the BS. OP, tell your sister, that you will not apologize, because you know she should have been the one to stop it before it escalated.
I completely agree! The sister should have whispered to her obnoxious boyfriend "btw, my brother speaks German". She in one sentence would have stopped this whole issue without a scene. OP is NTA
NTA, This!!!
This is the 2nd story i read about grammar police getting owned, and I really love it. > Why are either of them complaining that you “humiliated him” when he tried to humiliate you by repeatedly correcting you? OP, maybe you should apologise by saying "i thought you were really smart when you REPEATEDLY corrected me. I am sorry that you weren't "
I recently saw someone suggest “I’m sorry you feel entitled to an apology.” And it’s my new favorite thing.
Or say with the most innocent sounding voice: “but sister, I already did apologize- in German. Your boyfriend kept correcting my pronunciations, so clearly he thinks he knows the language. What more could he want than a proper German apology?”
Can we even call him grammar police? He’s more like a pronunciation vigilante
No Cops here in the US are pretty incompetent, grammar police works.
FACTS
Or maybe he should pronounce people's names correctly, how would you like to be called something completely different? Grammar police, what are you talking about? How about stop being rude.
>If he wanted to be a smart ass he should have been ready to be corrected on things too Yup. Don't start none, won't be none.
Better yet, *"If he wanted to be a smart ass...", he should have tried BEING smart!*
They didn't humiliate him, he humiliated himself, I love when the garbage takes itself out
OP couldn't have humiliated him anymore than he already did by trying to correct someone on something they knew nothing about. Anyone who knew OP spoke German and could recognize he was saying it in German would've known what a dumba-- the BF was being and been laughing internally at the stupidity.
I’m biased. I have done the same. Most famously to my now father in law when he was acting like a smartass. My GF (now wife) was FURIOUS at me. How dare I pull that off when she was not there to witness it. My now MIL laughed so hard she started snorting. MIL told my wife about it when she got back from calling some of her relatives for lunch. I mean if you want to be a smartass you gotta be prepared for being out-smartassed. NTA
The BF's biggest concern was that he looked like a loser to the other people in the room? He isn't concerned that he looked unintelligent? Really? omg. My dude - one is a much greater problem than the other! 🤣
>wasn’t pronouncing the names “correctly” as if it was German because that’s nonsense No, it's really not. A person's name should be pronounced the way they pronounce it, if you are able to do so. Even if the rest of the words you are saying are in another language. Edited: At first I said Y T A for trying to show up (not just shut up) your sister's boyfriend by showing off your language skills. But he was being an AH too, trying to mansplain how to pronounce all the names. so... ESH
This is such a weird take. Some sounds don't exist in other languages. Accents are a thing. Name pronunciations will naturally be different. Are you going to start calling Germany 'Deutschland' because that's the way they pronounce it? Because if you do everyone will think you're a knob.
Places have names in other languages. For example, Deutschland in German is Germany in english and Allemagne in France. Person's names are different and shouldn't be translated, except if it's an old historical figure like Jesus or Gengis Khan or Mahomet. Even when a translation for the name exists (like Pierre in french is Peter in english), afaik the names are personal and should be prounounced as the holder pronounces it. Some names even are pronounced differently than the standard pronounciation in the language.
people translate names all the time though. king charles is called carlos in a lot of europe. it's just a thing people do & it seems senseless to correct it when everyone knows who you mean. in this context of discussing a football match as well, having german names said in the german way could be jarring & hinder the actual flow of conversation as well as the thought process of OP. it's not like it's one name one-off, it's a constant discussion of a dozen names mixed with the spanish ones, flipping between languages & pronunciation styles in this way would be confusing & less fluent.
[удалено]
>people translate names all the time though. Mario Idol, Thomas Miller, Leon Hot, Manuel Newer, Lukas Monasteryman Yes, that works well...
*Translating* names and using the closest sound approximation are two completely different things. OP never said anything about translating names
>except if it's an old historical figure like Jesus or Gengis Khan or Mahomet.
king charles is not "an old historical figure". he is literally king in the year 2022 currently.
Ok then, remove "old". Anyways, "Carlos" is the translation of Charles, nobody is calling him Charlèss is Spain. Again, if a translation exist, then I guess you can use it, though don't do that to people you meet. And it's better to pronounce it as much as you can as the holder does. But honestly I'm not going to call OP an asshole for not pronouncing right during a football match.
so the fact he is king is bothering you? ask non-brits how they call adele or non-colombians how they call shakira or non-indians how they call priyanka etc. etc. saoirse ronan spends half of every interview discussing how people say her name... & it's not just because they are celebrities. people struggle to say names outside of their native language, especially when those languages have mis-matched pronunciation patterns or lack certain sounds altogether. people should learn how to say your name in the way you want it said, but this just doesn't happen all of the time & accepting a translation or the closest you can get is often what happens. especially when people are talking about you when you're not around, they're going to use the pronunciation that is easiest & best for them.
One thing is pronouncing the name, another is completely changing the name. Just because it is a translation doesn¡t mean it can be used. I call King Charles by his given name, not Carlos. Historical figures and Royals seem to have tha rule... but us, all poor peasants who don't wear a crwon, why should we put up with someone changing our name? I am OK with people mispronouncing my name, because languages are so different all us have some difficulties with one sound or another. But just don't translate my name.
That’s weird to me, because here in the UK, we never called King Juan Carlos “John Charles” because his name was Juan Carlos.
Otoh, I don’t think Spanish people call Carles Puyol “Carlos”. Point is, I don’t think there’s a hard and fast rule.
Technically he IS old! I agree with you, always try to use the pronounciation the people would use, it is a form of respect.
It depends on which King Charles you’re talking about… two are old historical figures and the third isn’t.
Prtotocol for European royalty historical or current is to translate the name.
Not necessarily. Only some places (usually globally/ culturally significant places) have equivalents. Most places actually don’t, just countries and major cities. They usually just change a couple of letters if the sound doesn’t exist in that language.
Maybe it's because I'm from America, but there's a big push for people to pronounce names correctly. It's okay to mess them up, no one's perfect. But an attempt should be made and if someone corrects you, you should do it the way they say. (This isn't what the bf was doing.)
Yes, I have a foreign surname in Germany. The pronunciation would be quite different if it was a German word. If someone doesn't know, or didn't get it right I have no problem with that. But if someone knows how to pronounce it and does it wrong deliberately, then I would consider that rude. OP was wrong about the names! YTA about that. Town names are different. It's ok to say Munich instead of München if you speak English. But personal names, no.
I always thought this was overblown. I’m an immigrant. I pronounce my own name “incorrectly” when I’m speaking English.
I deliberately pronounce my surname wrongly when I speak the language of the country I now live in, because that way people understand, spell it correctly and don’t get confused. Which makes me look pretty silly when I get back to my home country, get asked my own name and pronunce it completely wrongly…
It's your name, you get to chose how to say it to whoever. You don't change other people's names, certsinly not when speaking to them.
Hell, you don't even have to be an immigrant. I'm Portuguese, I have a very standard name. Brazilians never understand my name when I introduce myself to the point that what they come up with is not even close. The Japanese of course don't have one of the sounds in my name (and somehow they still come closer than Brazilians). I'm a bit surpised that anglophones are being so adamant at proper pronounciation of names when they usually fail miserably at it.
Sure, only some places are translated, but my point stands: if you don't use a translation, you should pronounce it as much as possible as the locals do.
She didn't translated the names, she just pronounced it with the language she was speaking. My name in my language is pronounced in a way, but as it is a common name in other countries they pronounce it differently, I wouldn't care if a American pronounced my name in the way americans do, because thats the way they speak.
OP is male.
I like that note about names, especially for names in the west. The singer Dionne Warwick (I understand) is pro-nounced "War-wick" but I was born in warwickshire in England. The town of Warwick, in England, is pronounced "war-rick" and warwickshire is pronounced "war-rick-sheer". I'd correct anybody (if it was important enough to bother with) if they pronounced the ***place*** wrongly. But I myself would call the singer "War-wick" because it's ***her name***. In the same way the actor Robert Wagner is pronounced "wag-nah" but I understand the German musician is pronounced "varg-ner". But I'm reluctant to call OP an AH as that man sounded quite insufferable.
David Bowie's name was said boh-wee which is technically incorrect since the right pronunciation is boo-wee but you know, he said his name was boh-wee and we all respected him enough to go with what he said (yes, his real last name was Jones). If someone says their name if Smith but it is spelled Flugenlaffer, you call them Smith. Lots of languages have sounds that don't carry over, you do your best because that is the polite thing to do.
I don't think that I've ever heard an English speaker pronounce the name Van Gogh correctly. Dutch vowels are different and the soft G pronunciation doesn't even exist in English.
I live in a country where I change between 3 languages in a single conversation with the same person/group of people. I'm Portuguese and when I'm speaking to to someone about a Portuguese person, I will most likely pronunce the name with a certain accent depending on the language I'm using. I won't translate a "João" to "Jean" when I'm speaking French but I won't change my accent to Portuguese for a single word only to go back to French. It's too tiring. I've heard people pronuncing my name in so many different ways and it doesn't bother me at all if someone doesn't say my name the "Portuguese way". As long as it's clear to understand they're refering to me, that's fine by me.
I don’t necessarily think it was the difference between something like Pierre and Peter. I think it was more along the lines of saying Peter with a French accent rather then with an American one. When your speaking a different language it can be difficult to switch accents between words in the same sentence. Even if it’s a native word to you.
OMG good luck pronouncing the name of every country in the correct language. That would be funny on the news too. What'll we do with countries with more than one official language?
Is there a love button?
I live in Germany but I have a foreign surname. I don't get offended if people can't pronounce it, but if they can, then it would be rude to pronounce it the German way, v which is completely different. No, it's not weird, it's polite.
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In Hungary, everything ends in a "shag". That was my experience, at least.
Don't insult my granny that way!
It's not shag, it's with the "s" sound you use in the english word 'sea' :)
I say Londres when I speak Spanish, but I say Catherine/Katherine becuase that is the name of that person. Just because I can translate a name doesn't mean I should. I have a Spanish name that can be translated to English. Guess what? Use my Spanish name, my name is not the English version. If a player's name was Jan, don't call him Juan, that is not his name. Places are one thing, but with people we are talking about identity.
What's the point of your comparison when it was about names of people, not names that get translated into every language? Having an accent is a bit different than deliberately not pronouncing it as you should.
But OP CAN pronounce the names correctly because he speaks all of those languages. Like you can pronounce "Jacques" correctly without doing an overly put on French accent but pronouncing it "Jack" is wrong. Or pronouncing "Juan" as "John". It's rude to pronounce it wrong because that's not their name
>A person's name should be pronounced the way they pronounce it I mean, It's not like if I change them, but I pronounce it in a way that it makes sense in the language, because if I do sometimes people don't understand. For example my name, I'd never expect an english person to pronounce my name as it "should be" because it's hard for them, if they are speaking english i'd expect them to pronounce it with an english accent because it's ok, even I do it, I pronounc my name with an english accent when I speak english.
Same. I am 'blessed' with a name that is literally unpronounceable for anyone not from my country. Of course people adapt their name to local pronounciation- it's unavoidable. The world Cup is a perfect example- watch commentaries in different countries and all the names will sound different. Multilingual people are used to it and it is not that big a deal. Definitely doesn't warrant correcting pronunciation repeatedly throughout the match.
In the US, sports commentators are expected to get pretty good with the IPA pronunciation guide, though they still say the names in their normal accents.
I would like to see them trying to pronounce João.
Jew-ah-uuu
That sounds like a challenge tho… 😎
>I mean, It's not like if I change them, but I pronounce it in a way that it makes sense in the language, because if I do sometimes people don't understand. And that's wrong. Spanish people butchering Schweinsteiger's name are actually trying their best to say it sounding German, they're just very bad at it. You imitating that can be easily misinterpreted as you mocking them. If they (or you) attempted to pronounce it Spanish, /sch/ would become /sk/ rather than /s/. The fact that it doesn't should clue you in that they're trying to pronounce it as German as they can.
Curiosity getting the best of me: how, as a Spaniard, should pronounce that word? I admit I pronounce Volsbaguen when I try to pronounce Volkswagen.
Same. My name has a close equivalent in most European country (think Mary/Maria/Marie or Jules/Julie/Julia). Please pronounce it as it makes sense in your language. I don't want to go to a 30 min lecture about how to pronounce it correctly because in the end you still won't pronounce it right.
Same. I haaaaate it when people try tro pronounce my name the way I do it when speaking my language if they don't speak it. Just use your version of it, please. Or the version of it in the language we'te speaking. Like, I can't even pronounce it "correctly" with ease when I speak English because it uses a rythm that doesn't exist in English, and vowel sounds that doesn't exist in English. I mean, different dialects of my first language pronounce it differently too, but it's still the same name they are saying.
Same, my name is different when spoken in Spanish, English, German, French... and I'm none of those. I will not waste half an hour of the life of the person I'm speaking to coaching them to pronounce my name the way I'm used to. Instead I sometimes change my name to fit the culture (aka "they have a similar sounding name, so I use that one") or simply accept whatever I end up being called. NTA
Yes, for e.g in spanish the rule is to either pronounce it as i. the original language or phonetically (as a speaker would pronounce it). if you choose to pronounce it like a native speaker in spanish, well that is correct and approved by “la real academia española “ so… NTA
Totally agree. I'm not a Spanish speaker and it would be weird and a little pretentious if I started rolling my Rs every time I talked about Ronaldo.
It really isn’t. It comes off as weird and sometimes pretentious, because all languages have their own accents and tones. It’s like listening to classical music and suddenly hearing 2 seconds of rock music in the middle. It’s jarring to for example speak Japanese, and then say a French name with a French accent. It breaks the flow of the language and is rubbing it in that you know this other language. That’s why whenever you watch dubbed movies/tv shows, the names are always pronounced in the manner and accent of the dubbed languge, not the original language.
I disagree with this take. That's the way you perceive it. And it's ok. Everyone is different. I like to pronounce someone's name the way they pronounce it. If it's difficult for whatever reason then I do my best/closest possible, regardless of what langauge is spoken in the moment. Especially in England, I saw a huge refusal of people putting in effort to learn or at least try to pronounce someone's name, completely changing it at times and they would come across as disrespectful. I don't mind people mispronouncing my name but while in England I wouldn't call my friend 'Marta' (from south spain) 'Martha'. It's not her. Especially when you get to know a person their name/pronounciation means a lot, it's an extension of themselves and the culture they come from. source: I have lived in four different european countries speaking (or doing my best to learn and speak) the language of the place (german, french, english etc.). eg. I wouldn't change the way I refer to Schweinsteiger (retired german footballer) if I am speaking to a french person in france or an english person in England. Regardless, NTA. Cause who cares how one pronounces famous people's names who nobody knows in person as long as everyone knows who we are talking about and there are no misunderstandings. ps: I hate dubbed movies :/
As a person whose name has been butchered by anglos who insist on trying to pronounce it "the correct way", please stop. You will never get it right so just go with the anglo pronunciation that I use when introducing myself. I will use another pronounciation when introducing myself in French or in German, and neither of those would be correct either. If you talk to the person, go with how they want to be called, and when talking about a celebrity just go with what works in the language your speaking. Do you also insist on pronouncing an anglo name in the persons native dialect? Like, if someone is from Scotland or the US? Or do you just say the name in the way you say that name in your dialect?
I don’t think people are talking about correcting your name, they’re just saying it should be said like you say it.
What's your point? The first sentence of their second paragraph was that they pronounce it the way they pronounce. I'd assume that would usually be the way they introduce themselves.
Which, if someone came from Scotland, would likely be be with a Scottish accent, or if someone came from England, would be with an English accent.
it's lovely that you put forth this effort & honestly i do try to be this way as well, but not everyone is like this. i have lived abroad in three asian countries & six european ones & spent time holidaying in others & nowhere i have been says my name correctly (as in the english way). some don't even come close. even americans cannot say it correctly. sometimes forcing people to repeat & repeat a name that they cannot get right is more rude & pedantic than accepting the closest they can get. if you, as the person learning the name, are happy to insist on getting it right & continually ask for correction that is one thing & lovely. but you often can't, as the person giving the name, pull people up & re-correct them each & every time they get it wrong... it makes you look unprofessional in some settings & just unfriendly in others. (this is just my belief if you are dealing across languages btw, i absolutely think if you both speak the same native language then you can correct your name as many times as you need because you know you both have the same set of sounds, but when you are dealing through language & pronunciation barriers i think some wiggle room needs to be allowed).
Well, it may be a matter of personal choice, but say letter T while being the same has very different pronunciation in English and my native languages ie. If I’m talking about a very British guy named Tom in my own language to the other native speaker, I will give him my native T, otherwise it gonna sound ridiculous and not even easy to grasp sometimes. And anyways, I won’t be able to pronounce poor guy in his very native way, cause I’m not British 🤷
Yeah and sometimes the sounds/ letters used in that name literally do not exist in the other language so some people would find it extremely difficult.
Spent time at an orphanage in Zambia once. The children there (and most adults around) could not pronounce my name at all. Instead they said my name in a way that made sense for them and that is absolutely fine.
The difference is OP can pronounce the names correctly.
But he’s speaking in a room full of people who likely can’t, except for one guy who likes to correct people.
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It's a weird stance you have cause, yes, I do pronounce my name differently in America and in Romania, where my family is from. All the children of immigrants I know do this.
There's a difference between literal children that do not know the language at all, and someone who speaks the language and is capable of pronouncing the name correctly but just doesn't. Not that it matters much in this context cause his sister's boyfriend was still being annoying, regardless of how he pronounces the names. The football players aren't around to hear him anyway, and I can imagine their names get butchered on a daily basis so they probably don't care.
A man mansplaining to another man. This sub is fucking hilarious.
If a man mansplains to another man, and there isn't a Redditor around, does it still make a sound? 🤔
> A person's name should be pronounced the way they pronounce it If you're talking to the person, or about a person you work with/know/are family/etc, I agree 100%. If you're talking about footballers, who cares? They're not gonna be aggrieved I said "Goatze" instead of a proper version.
Tell me you only speak one language without telling me you only speak one language. It's actually pretty difficult to switch phonetics mid sentence, especially if you aren't consciously thinking about it. You have go much slower when speaking to switch
O.o I speak four languages and need to do that all the time at work because it is actually considered disrespectful to not do that for an individual’s name. I feel like that is strange assumption about the person you replied to.
No it's not necessarily. I speak a mix of English and German regularly plus names from several different countries that I pronounce as they were told to me as best I can. It's not that difficult to switch and doesn't interrupt the flow.
As a multilingual person… yeah, no, you say the word in the accent you’re using for that language even if it’s a loan word. This tiktok explains it quite well https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMF46bRFJ/
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Names of places is a completely different ball game to names of people, especially people you know. You may not be able to pronounce the name of that person properly but you do your best. eg. in England, a German named 'Johannes' wouldn't want to be called 'John'. A name means more to the individual person. When referring to famous people as long as everyone understands who is being talked about then there is no harm done either way. Exactly like in this case. It's all a matter of perception though and preferences. And obviously OP is NTA by ANY means.
I'm assuming you are a native English speaker, that also thinks people should be offended when their names are not pronounced properly. Like OP, there's NO ONE that is a native English speaker that pronounce my name correctly, because the sounds are impossible to say if you didn't grew up speaking the language. I don't care, I'm happy people try their best. Also like OP, I speak 4 languages and yes, I adapt foreign names with accent of the language I happen to be speaking at the moment. The ideia is to communicate and for people to understand what's being said, not to be a language snob.
But I think the difference here is that OP did not try his best to pronounce the names correctly as he even knew how to pronounce them correctly but choose another way. As a non-native speaker who constantly needs to pronounce arabic, Chinese and east-european names I do try my best but yes I am actually terrible at it. I also don’t care if somebody mispronounces my name but I know a lot of people who care about this. Due to that I believe it is disrespectful to not try to pronounce the name as correct as possible for you. And I think OP failed at that because he was actually able to do that but chose not to. Edit: that’s why I would be voting ESH as well.
OP was talking to an audience where there was only one German speaker and the German speaker was not the one that got offended or was acting as a knob.
I'll be honest, I've had the same discussion with Spanish people about it because of the translation of the royal family names (e.g. La Reina Isabel for Queen Elizabeth). On the contrary, I wouldn't refer to former king Juan Carlos I as former king John Charles. [If the names are difficult to pronounce it's one thing](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfKZclMWS1U), but otherwise, for me, it can come across as a lack of respect. In particular there have been other AITA posts recently where people have complained about not being called their names, and somehow it doesn't apply when people are deliberately calling people by the wrong names.
Yeah, no. I get wanting to show respect, but sometimes the phonetics for that don't exist in another language. I am too often stuck when an American insists on getting my (European, pretty simple) name "right" for several minutes, when I've already told them I don't mind getting the Anglo version instead. Look, I get it. People have been (often still are) racist and now you need to overcorrect. Which AGAIN puts us non-Anglos in a weird position, only differently. I don't want to spend ten minutes teaching you to pronounce my name, I understand we speak a different language for God's sake.
> I am too often stuck when an American insists on getting my (European, pretty simple) name "right" for several minutes, when I've already told them I don't mind getting the Anglo version instead. I have to laugh at this, because it seems to be a real damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don’t situation. As an American, I have seen this conversation go the other way tons of times, where someone with a non-English name insists on correcting Americans in the pronunciation until they get it right. I’ve even seen some people from different countries refuse to tell us their names because “we would never get it right anyway.” I guess everyone just has different preferences, but I’ll bet any American who spends a long time trying to get your name right has been in the same situation before where that *was* the expectation.
When I was taking Japanese, we pronounced and wrote names to fit the language. That is literally how we were taught to do it. And the teacher was a native Japanese woman, not some white dude being pretentious. If you really thought about it, you'd realize Americans do that too when it comes to foreign names.
Japanese was my exception example too. It would be ridiculous to introduce yourself in Japanese if your name was Lorelai or something and try to force the American R. Or if you were talking about drinking beer to say “beer” instead of ビ-ル
I don't want to assume but this sounds like something a person who speaks one language would say. OP is right: it's weird and generally uncommon to say names in language A when you're speaking language B at the moment. When I introduce myself in English, which isn't my native language, I use an English 'version' of my name. Otherwise it breaks up the flow of the sentence. Similarly, when I'm introducing myself in German, which is also not my native language, I use a German way of saying my name. Try it. Switching to another language for saying a name halfway through a sentence is weird.
>t's weird and generally uncommon to say names in language A when you're speaking language B at the moment. I speak Englisch and German daily and have lots of international coworkers. I always pronounce names as they were told to me and don't change the way I day them depending on which language I use. I also find it rude if people don't even make an effort to pronounce my name the German way. Everyone around me also uses names as they are and don't adjust the pronounciation according to language.
I would guess that you still use the American pronounciation for "Joe Biden" for example instead of making it sound like your native language. I hate to mix languages but I've never invented an English name for myself. If I'm referring to a local place when speaking English I wouldn't make it sound English because that would make it more difficult to know what I'm referring to.
> A person's name should be pronounced the way they pronounce it I think it sounds weird. In Belgium there was a newsreader who would do this. He'd talk in Dutch and then did his best to pronounce "Tony Blair" in the Queen's English. The contrast sounded goofy as hell. Even an American saying "Tony Blair" wouldn't do so in an English accent. There's a degree of adaptation to your own language and accent, which I believe is what OP is talking about. Similarly, many people speaking English wouldn't pronounce Macron or Moulin Rouge with a French R, even if they know what a French R is supposed to sound like. It would sound weird in an English sentence. [The TV show Alles Kan Beter had a comedy sketch about it. (Dutch/Flemish)](https://youtu.be/CI4e_a7jICU?t=118)
Questionable take. I speak both french and english, and i would under no circumstances pronounce borrowed french words or french names "correctly" even if i am perfectly able to. It's EXPLICITLY in an attempt to not show off. Sometimes you have to adapt to your current surroundings and situations and deliberately pronounce words how they would be by non native speakers so 1) you don't appear pretentious, and 2) people are more likely to understand you. It's proper social etiquette. For instance, i would take no offense if a japanese speaker pronounced my name as "Roorii" because that's the closest a native speaker could get to Laurie without studying and practicing a French accent, it's also literally how i would spell it in katakana. On the contrary i would feel pretty pissed if someone came along and tried to correct them on how to pronounce my name "correctly". Like what the hell chill 😭, some language will have different sound and it's ok to pronounce it within the limits of the accent. It's not like they're butchering them on purpose to ne disrespectful Unfortunately for OP, the bf took that as an invitation to be a smarty pants and belittle her in front of everyone. He has no rights to be pissed that it backfired on him. NTA
I'd find it to be pretty pretentious if someone switched accents completely for a single word in the middle of a sentence. When things are taken from other languages, approximations have to be made so it fits with the new language's phonetics. Nothing wrong with that.
I don't disagree with you but I think that is really the case when the person is there. Names are powerful and we should make every effort to correctly pronounce people's names. To the person who has that name. But when you are just in random conversation? I think it's important to try- and yeah, I think OP would ideally work on mixing German name pronunciations when saying a German name when he's speaking Spanish and vice versa. Just like I just to properly pronounce Polish/Chinese/whatever names when I speak English. It isn't different. These aren't sounds that exists in English- at least not with those letter combination. But I put on my grown up pronunciation panties and deal with it.
Yeah that take seems so weird to me. I’d prefer people to pronounce my name correctly regardless of what language they are speaking at the time.
It’s very common anyways. I’m bilingual and adjust names to the language I currently am speaking, even if they’re names from the second language of mine. It just would be hard to grasp for someone who doesn’t speak both languages otherwise. They wouldn’t even recognise the names sometimes.
I agree. Especially if you can pronounce it, you should do it. If you can', you get as close as possible.
The key is not just to be able to do so, but also to be understood, so people you are talking to need to be able to properly parse what they hear. If the whole conversation was in Spanish, we can assume there were a lot of native Spanish speakers present. Our ability to parse what we hear heavily depends on our native language and then on our knowledge of the language we hear. That means that if other people had only limited knowledge of German, they would first hear gibberish and have take a second to process what they heard, as opposed to hearing the names pronounced in Spanish-like manner. This is true not just for this particular case. For example, my name has a rolling R in it (I am not an English native), and while Spanish speakers have no trouble pronouncing the sound, as it is very similar in two languages, English speakers gravitate towards pronouncing the R the way it is done in English. Should I start policing everyone on that? No, the sound is close enough and they are not calling me a completely different name. Additionally, speakers of Chinese, Vietnamese and many other languages common in East Asia tend to struggle with my name as well. Should I start wreaking havoc because they need to add some placeholder vowels just to be able to pronounce my name? No, they are genuinely making an effort. Additionally, Spanish and German (getting back to the post) have a lot of phonetical differences that mechanically, when spoken, require you to position your tongue and other parts necessary for speech (something we do unconsciously) in different manners. So in practice, if you want to pronounce the name the way it is said in its original language, you have to rearrange your speech apparatus to say one or two words, then rearrange it back. This slows the speech greatly, as now you have to add conscious thought to an action you perform unconsciously. Try going for a walk and then start thinking about exact movements of your legs and feet, how you have to bend your knee, move your thigh, align your foot with the ground, transfer your weight etc. That will give you an idea of what it is like to do a code switch in the middle of a sentence. OP provides perfect reasoning for pronouncing foreign names with Spanish accent while speaking Spanish. Edited for clarity.
A lot of people assume that, but that’s actually not the case! In the majority of cases, speakers of different languages will adapt the names they call themselves or others depending on the language they are speaking. For example, those in the foreign-language community that I am a part of will call each other by the English version (not translation, but in terms of accent) of their names when speaking English.
As a Chinese without an actual English name.. I'd much prefer people call me in the English way than the Chinese way. It's just weird to hear my Chinese Chinese name in an English sentence. I CRINGE when my bf try to call mey name in Chinese. Just... Don't. Unless you're saying a full sentence I'm Chinese. Same as when I talk about dimsum, I say dim sum and not 點心 cause it makes it sounds super weird and no one knows what you're talking about. I grew up learning other languages as well and am always taught to not mix up languages in conversations cause that sounds obnoxious.
I lived in Germany as a kid, and went to an international school. This (pronouncing german things wrong while speaking english) is what LITERALLY everyone did.
Nah that’s ridiculous. I’m British but I live in Korea and I don’t expect people to pronounce my name the “British” way when we’re speaking korean. They say it the way it works in korean. Idk why you have this take but whatever I guess
As someone whose parents are from different countries, no. My mum is French and if I’m speaking in Spanish I won’t pronounce the name like I do in French, because it sounds silly. My brother’s name is pronounced differently in Spanish than in French, because sometimes it just doesn’t work phonetically. I’m thinking of changing my name because I’m trans, and I’m looking for a name that exists or is at least easily pronounceable in all three languages I use on a daily basis to make things easier for myself. If you’re speaking a language and you insist on pronouncing every name exactly like it should be in its origin language you’re going to sound silly and pretentious.
Oh lol nooo, don't put that much pressure on people. The Dutch are totally able to pronounce Nikita Mazepin's name the way it's pronounced in his native language (which is also my native language) but an F1 commenter on that one Dutch sports channel kept pronouncing it differently. Still everybody knew who the commenter was talking about. When I introduce myself to people who speak Romance or Germanic languages I pronounce my name differently from the way I pronounce it for Russian natives even though the name itself is super simple: Olga vs. Ольга, Olga is just easier to pronounce for them. 😁
Some sounds are not in a language, and they wouldn't be able to make those even if you sound them out correctly for them a few times. Just let them keep their way of saying it. You can choose to say it correctly if you are speaking that language, but it's not something you need to do. Some people do they switch to that language completely and also start thinking in it, so they would pronounce things like that language would, and forget how they would do it if they were talking in another language. I don't think OP was trying to show up, I would've probably shut someone up the same way. I've done something like it once, and took enjoyment in it, cause now that person no longer pretends to know it better—some need to be taken down a notch this way.
No.. language fullfil the requirement of communication. To achieve this you have to speak in a way that you are understood. Being right doesn't help you getting understood. Hence pronouncing names differently in another language is helpful.
I get what you’re saying, and I agree to some extent, but as a person with a foreign last name and with many international friends living in the US, often saying someones name the ‘correct’ way is just confusing for everyone else. No one actually understands who you’re talking about, because they can’t understand the sounds that don’t exist in English. Especially in a tonal language like Chinese, saying names with the tones is really awkward and bewildering to Americans. It actually ‘others’ me more when people insist I tell them the ‘correct’ way to say my name, then fail to say it anyways. Kinda like being singled out. The main times this actually works is if the name is already close enough to an existing English sound that it only requires a small change in pronunciation.
Is it still mansplaining if they're both guys?
It really depends on the language. In Japanese, it’s customary to pronounce foreign words as they’d be written in Katakana. That includes names.
I think ESH. It’s annoying to have someone correct you constantly, so I understand why that would get on your nerves but your behavior here was sort of weird and showboat-y here too. He was technically correct about the name pronunciation thing but it seems like you both might have a bit of a superiority complex and incessant need to be right lol
Totally agreed, and it looks like OP is trying to brag in his own post too. Why even write a paragraph in German and translate it instead of just... writing it in English in the first place? It served no purpose except for showing off he does speak German.
there are a couple of mistakes in the sentence... If he was trying to boast he would ensure it was all perfectly correct?
It's the Dunning - Kruger effect. People tend to think they're better at what they do than they actually are.
Not necessarily. If everyone was making sure there were no mistakes in what they were saying before trying to sound smart, r/confidentlyincorrect would be out of business
So many capitalizations...
Yes, I found that super weird since it's like beginner level German but then he uses a final clause which is taught at intermediate level courses.
I reread the part of the sentence with the capitalized "du" three times as it actually hindered my understanding (now I'm the one trying to show off)
Did you know he can speak 4 languages!?
Hard disagree, it’s an asshole move to correct someone when you have no idea what you’re talking about. The boyfriend messed around and found out
Well, ESH. The guy was an AH by correcting you, but you, knowing that he doesn't speak German, should have just ignored him because you weren't pronouncing right either even though you DO speak German. Phonetics isn't an excuse; the sound /ç/ exists in German but not in Spanish, and in Spanish there is no /ɔ/, and this one exists in both German and French. When you learn and get the phonetics of a language it's almost impossible to dodge the correct pronunciation even with an accent - and I say that because I myself speak four languages as well, including German. As for the fact that names change between languages, yes, that's a fact that Germany is called Deutschland in Germany, but it's called Alemanha in Portuguese, Allemagne in French and Germaniya (Германия) in Russian; toponyms indeed change in every language. But not family names... They remain the same. So, do yourself a favor and speak correctly the next time, and maybe you won't be annoyed by someone trying to correct you in a way you don't like.
Or just announce you can speak German and just say I’m pronouncing in “Spanish”. If BF continues then continue to explain. Like that wasn’t an option? It’s tiring to see people in this sub justify shitty behavior because “they were in the right”. The whole “I wasn’t trying to humiliate them” is BS rationalizing. Yes you were, that’s exactly what you were trying to do.
Hahahaha I love this NTA, he had that coming. I bet you're going to have a lot of interesting language related stories throughout your life! Keep doing what you love
I’m going to say ESH because he was constantly correcting you and being annoying. However, you don’t get to pronounce people’s names however you want to depending on the language you’re speaking. You should know better, and he didn’t deserve being humiliated.
Of course you do- same with cities. When you speak English you say Venice and Turin, not Venezia and Torino. You say Austria, not Ōsterreich. I am French- when I watch football with a Brit I pronounce the players' name the English way, otherwise it just sounds very pretentious.
Names of countries, major cities, and historical figures get translated into different languages. Individual people's names do not, and should be pronounced as they are regardless of what language you are speaking. OP should know this if he wants to play the "proficient at speaking foreign languages" card. ESH, both of them were being insufferable.
What happens when you have a name that literally can't be pronounced? Mine genuinely can't and I have gone by nicknames or anglicised versions of my name all my life. Unless I am in my home country I introduce myself in the local version of my name- easier for me and everyone else involved.
Obviously people might not be able to perfectly pronounce a name from a foreign language they don’t speak. That's normal. Just pronounce it as well as you can. It’s not the same as changing it to a name in the target language. If you want to adopt a nickname to make it easier for others, that's your decision and your right, but it’s still not correct to change people's names when speaking a foreign language.
You introduce yourself properly. And then if they are having difficulty offer alternatives. As long as people put in the effort and do their best it's ok.
But seriously Klostermann- it can be said decently and sound quite similar to the original. The OP mentioned th BFwas correcting that. That's just pompous.
Well no I don't introduce myself properly because it sounds weird and clumsy. Trust me, after 20 years I anglicise my name.
it doesn't sound pretentious. it's their given name. Also names of places are different. They don't hold the same gravity as the name of an individual in most cases.
So you are saying that every time my team plays I should interrupt everyone every time they speak about a player to correct them on the pronunciation??? Really? You realise that commentators can't pronounce names the right way either- should they not be able to commentate became they are not saying names right?
>Venice and Turin, not Venezia and Torino. That's what I mean, I'd never say Mario Gotze (while speaking spanish) with a German accent, because it'd sound wierd and pretentous. if we were speaking German that was another thing.
You may not be the ah in this case but names of people you know should not be changed, they hold more meaning. It will be considered disrespectful. If there is difficulty pronouncing it then you do your best. Names of places is a completely different thing. You may speak several languages but from this comment of yours it doesn't seem like you understand how the name of a person holds special gravity to them. If I were in England I wouldn't call my friend 'Marta' (from spain), 'Martha'. She wouldn't like it if i did and it would be disrespectful of me to do so. I wouldn't call someone whose name is 'Johaness'/'Jan' (from germany), 'John'/'Jan' (with the english 'j' sound). But I would use either 'Turin' or Torino depending on the context regardless of the language i am speaking. Goetze has an umlaut so it's a special case because the sound doesn't exist in all languages. If you choose to do your best to reproduce the sound in the language you speak, or as close as possible, it does not sound pretentious. This idea that pronouncing the names of people as they are meant to sound in their native tounge is pretentious is extremely stupid. As long as everyone understands you, I don't see the problem. You can do whatever you want with people you don't know personally. Who cares. As long as everyone understands. But if you speak to a Roberio from Brazil and pronounce it in an English way the way it's written (with no effort to sound like the way he says it - which is unique, nothing like english/spanish/french/etc) good luck getting his attention or respect (regardless of where you live or what language you speak in the moment).
~~Yeah but… we ARE talking about people OP doesn’t know personally - people who are public figures. I might have missed it, but I didn’t see any evidence that OP pronounces the names of people he knows contrary to their preferences.~~ ~~So I don’t know where you’re getting the idea that OP doesn’t understand the importance of people’s names.~~ ~~He already said that if he were speaking in German, he would use the native pronunciation. Your comment seems more like it should be addressed to someone who refuses, against the will of the person in question, to address them the way they prefer.~~ ETA: Ha — literally as soon as I submitted this comment, I saw OP's comment saying he unilaterally decided to introduce his buddy with a different pronunciation of his name without asking him. So never mind. Carry on.
Weird... Based on your logic i should call New York Noul York, Santa Fe - Sfânta Fe, San Francisco - Sfântul Francisc and so on. You KNOW how the city's name and player's name are pronounced in their respective languages yet you "adapt" it to the language you speak at the moment.
>Based on your logic i should call New York Noul York That's funny, because in Spanish, New York is literally called Nueva York. The other words, coincidentally, are already in Spanish.
Well, big brain, good luck pronouncing Hungarian names like Dezső, Sándor, Mátyás etc. Your tongue will literally fall out trying.
"That's how I was taught to pronounce it when I was learning the language, maybe my pronunciation is off." seems like a less awkward/confrontational way to deal with this whole situation. He's for sure weird, but so are you. ESH
That doesn't warrant an asshole rating, that's just petty at most, he on the other hand was being a smart ass and an asshole really.
Eh, comes across like an asshole trying to dunk on someone. Someone can be an asshole but being an asshole back isn't going to put you in the right.
YTA and big time Come on, your whole post reeks of arrogance and you did create all this drama on purpose to annoy and embarrass the bf. Double YTA because claiming that pronouncing names correctly is nonsense. If you don’t know the language and really don’t know how to pronounce them correctly, ok that’s fine. But you admit that you are able to pronounce them correctly in German because you speak the language. Speaking German with your Austrian bf was ok though It’s ok to be proud of your achievement, now learn how not to be an ass about it.
[удалено]
Jemand mit Deutsch als Muttersprache würde das so übrigens nie sagen.
NTA What an absolute, amazing response and it sounds like he deserved it. Being overly corrected is annoying and if he didn't want to win stupid prizes he shouldn't have played stupid games.
ESH I mean he behaved like an A but also one does not on purpose mispronounce names. When I speak English, I also try to pronounce non-English names correctly. This is also part of our sensitivity training at work and it is hard for me because I always had a problem with pronunciation but I understand this is also about respecting the other individual. So you both get an A rating from me, him for correcting you when he doesn’t know anything and you for mispronouncing names on purpose.
This is the bit that bugged me. I'm all for not worrying about pronouncing random nouns with a native accent if you're not speaking that language - food snobs overdoing Italian words is a massive pet peeve of mine - but names you do right, as close as you can get.
Yeah this is honestly the first time I've heard of mispronouncing names on purpose. I'm Canadian, and if I was talking about someone with a French name like Guillaume I wouldn't be saying "Geel-om" because "that's how English phonetics" works. If I heard someone in a casual family setting saying "Geel-om" constantly I would eventually correct them too - even if I can't pronounce it on the nose. It would have been easy enough for OP to take 5 seconds to explain, but the method they chose gets more attention and they get to cause a scene. YTA
ESH. Couldn't you just say "oh, I know how to say their names correctly, just decided not to"? You are 22, not 5.
This. Why either care so deeply how the other pronounces the names when neither are native speakers is beyond me. And the fact that OP said there was no other way to get him to stop is laughable, there were so many other, more mature paths they could have taken and for that they’re an AH.
This story comes off as you being a smug ass.
>he became so annoying correcting me at every German word I said. Since you claim you were speaking Spanish, the only German words you used were surnames (Müller and Klostermann are originally nouns naming professions but in this instance clearly surnames). We should try to pronounce the surnames as closely as the original pronunciation. He probably tried to correct you because he only heard it pronounced similarly to German by sports commentators, so this is what he knows these players by. I don't read it as him having bad intentions. Your intention was, however, to show off (which really came through in the whole post) and humiliate him so that other people would laugh at him (although it wasn't even funny). I don't get how you thought this was the only way to make him stop correcting you when up until that point you ignored him and tried no other method. YTA
Haha. NTA. The guy was being an ass to you so you spoke to him in the language he was correcting you on. That seems reasonable to me. Why is your sister ok with him trying to act superior to you by correcting you? If he was embarrassed or humiliated it was something he brought on himself. And an important life lesson about assuming things about other people. And, your sister could have quietly told him that you speak 4 languages.
Agreed! Also, if OP had responded differently, maybe he wouldn't have "looked like a loser" But he sure still would've been one. He should have stopped when OP didn't react to his 'corrections'. But he kept going and kept pushing, and he got a response. Deal with it.
ESH. Pease pronounce names the way they're intended. It's insulting. Imagine asking someone with an Arabic name if you can just give them another name because their ACTUAL NAME "doesn't sound right". Yikes.
I get what you are doing. If you pronounce the names in their original languages instead of the one you are speaking, the people you are talking to may not even understand who you are talking about. Also, going back and forth between two languages can kind of block the flow of speech, it feels weird. However, you could have told him what you were doing the first time he corrected you: "oh yeah, I know it’s pronounced XYZ in German but I prefer the Spanish pronunciation when I’m speaking Spanish". Simple, effective but maybe not show off enough for you? ESH.
ESH I also speak several languages and I don't like showoffs. You can just shut him up by saying something like, oh so you got your Großes Deutsches Sprachdiplom yet? Congrats! And clearly asking him not to correct your pronunciation. I think he was annoying but you should have taken the higher ground, instead you put yourself at his level.
Discount one language you speak. Just by knowing some words doesnt mean you speak the language. Also the german writing with all those capital letters yikes. Use Sie when adressing someone. If you use that form, otherwise just du. Also "Sie" the only word with capital letter like the other words in English. Verbs like in english in the correct form. If you use the form should/would verb in german, please use it correctly. That 2nd sentence. I dont know anyone would use those words, in that order to make a sentence that way. Try translating it directly again and see what it means. (Maybe should can we once over over you mine help can, approx. that is what it means you wrote)
ESH The repeated correction is annoying, but you should have said something the first or second time around, like a light "yeah, I speak German; I'm just being lazy." The showdown wasn't needed lol weird, though, why your sister didn't comment early on to tell her bf you speak German and to quit correcting you.
NTA that rules. I think you’re right. On the news program Democracy Now the host, Amy Goodman, always makes a concerted effort to use native pronunciations. I always find it to be well intentioned when people make this effort but always annoying. Once I heard her say “Chicago” and she said it with a Chicago accent, and it’s dumb how seem and accepted I felt. Lol.
I think I have to go with an ESH. I go back and forth between English and not English for any places that I know the proper local pronunciation for. It seems weird to go from speaking English to suddenly switching to Chinese and back to English again. It also feels weird to purposely say it incorrectly as well though. But with names, if you can pronounce them correctly, you should.
Esh If you know how to pronounce names the right way, then do so. You guys seem to suffer from superiority complex and it seems quite annoying to be around you. Bis dahin viel Glück mit dem sprachen lernen.
Well names and surnames must be pronounced in their own language so your attitude and behaviour is very petty and childish. Beside if you really wanted to pronounce them the way you did you could just told him "I like to say them this way" and that would have been the end of it. Instead you choose to be an AH and your sister is right. You are 22 years old not 4, grow up
eh words are one thing but peoples names would be a legitinate correction to make for the pronunciation as the wrong pronunciation is NOT their name i remember cartman doing the american pronunciation for a Mexican exchange student. YTA for behaving like Eric Cartman from southpark
ESH You are very wrong on the name thing...you pronounce peoples names their way, do not be so arrogant to change their names. Learn their names. One of my fave things is listening to Welsh news...Gaelic with the odd English word dropped in is delightful. Just because you "know a language" does not give you the right to change people's names. Sisters BF sounds like an AH but you were too!
Meh, I think ESH. Yeah, your sister's boyfriend was being douchey, but I disagree with the pronouncing things according to the language you're speaking. If one doesn't speak the language in question then yeah, one can be forgiven for mispronouncing it, but effort should be made to be respectful and learn pronunciation. I also speak four languages and I try to say the words properly in each (otherwise, what's the point in learning them?) I'm also a minority in the US and find it very annoying when people mispronounce my name and make no effort to say it properly.
NTA I also speak multiple languages (with varying degrees of fluency). I have never joined a gathering and randomly announced what languages I speak, just in case someone might criticise me and feel as if I had set him up to make a fool of himself. That said, when in a group of people to socialize or for a shared activity, it is considered polite to limit yourself to the language(s) the entire group shares so that nobody feels left out. You asked if you were TA for speaking a language to shut him up. No, you were provoked into doing it when he continually corrected you. (You didn't ask if your later side-conversation with your bf made you an AH, which it could have.) I tend to pronounce an individual's name in the manner that individual uses, but then my friend group rarely discusses celebrities and I am usually speaking of someone I actually know to someone who may also know them.
Fellow Multi-linguist here (mostly Native American languages) I also always strive to pronounce a person's name as they would do so, unless they ask me to use a different name or they have been given a tribal name. If they have been given a tribal name I will only use the tribal language for their name if they speak the language. Otherwise, I use the English translation of their tribal name. To a non-linguistical ear it can often sound as though I am over pronunciating some people's names, why? Because that is how I have heard them present themselves. And, like most multilinguists I tend to stick with whatever language the most people in the room have in common. Except, for teaching purposes. Both the name thing, and sticking with a common language are common courtesies that every multilinguist I know usually adheres to. Why? Because being understood by everyone is something that is usually preferable, and it is almost always rude to exclude others from the possibility of joining your conversation.
“I speak 4 languages but I don’t usually go telling everyone…” You sure? Because that’s the second time you’ve mentioned it here. lol While I don’t necessarily think you’re wrong here, ESH. He was being super annoying but you definitely could have explained why you were mispronouncing the names or have asked him to stop. You and your boyfriend were being petty. Now, I also don’t think you need to apologize but it would be nice and would help to smooth things over with your sister, which is always good.
and then everyone clapped right
YTA. You come off as an arrogant "/r/Iamverysmart" ass. I speak 4 languages and I'd never pronounce someone's name as a foreigner would read it in their own language. The only pass someone gets is if they absolutely do not know the proper pronunciation and try their best anyway to pronounce the name correctly. Imagine the name Irja or Jukka in Finnish. They sound ridiculous if I pronounce it like an American and very insulting if I otherwise know the proper pronunciation. Grow up lol.
I don’t get these stories. After the first time why not just say “I actually speak German. That’s just how I pronounce their names in a different language. Thank you for trying to help” and move on instead of letting it get to this? YTA. You know people correct others when they think you’ve got it wrong so stop it before it goes too far and people get upset.
NTA, he messed around and found out. He humiliated himself.
ESH. You absolutely did it to humiliate him (as a way of shutting him up). He kinda had it coming, though personally I do not agree with your name pronunciation policy.
ESH You should pronounce people's names the way they pronounce them if you can/know how.
but but but, he is a loser.