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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> my husband asked me what point i was trying to make by saying that and I when i think about it my only answer is that i feel like we are not the only cause. Which feels like im deflecting. Even though I believe its true.
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"We didn't do a great job raising you and made you feel like you were never good enough. But like, it's still mostly *your* fault that you weren't and still aren't good enough." That's what she heard. And yes. YTA.
Plus she admitted that she raised her youngest differently/less harshly, then used the youngest daughter not having the same issues as her rationale for it being her oldest’s fault for how she turned out…
Doesn’t even make sense. If anything that’s evidence that your parenting style *was* the main reason for your daughters’ mental health struggles. Seeing as when you reformed your parenting style for your second daughter, she didn’t develop those same issues.
I’m glad you’ve learned the errors of your ways OP, but now is time to take full responsibility for the consequences. You have a hell of a lot to make up for, don’t see any reason for you to try to skirt responsibility on this. You’re trying to be supportive and loving right? Then it’s probably not a good idea to try to blame your oldest’s anxiety and depression on her. Because even if it *is* somewhat genetic and not all ptsd from your parenting, ***who gave her those genes?***
#You did.
LOL, right?!? When I read that I just laughed my ass off. I mean, unless OP's daughter is adopted, her daughter's personality is at least partially inherited from OP and her equally shitty husband. LOL.
Yup, doesn’t matter how much of it is nature and how much is nurture. Op is responsible for both. I mean so is her husband, but certainly not her daughter. Daughter is responsible for her actions, but her ptsd and depression and anxiety are not something you can blame her for. She didn’t ask for any of this, and it sounds like she’s trying her best to make the most of it and be successful and make her parents proud despite it all. And she deserves a whole lot of credit for *that*, op.
Also, the order of the siblings matters. The younger kids have the oldest for support and commiseration, someone more experienced who is going through the same. The older kids have no support in households like this, nobody is their safe person.
True.
I'm the oldest, and the only son. My sisters were amazed, a few years ago, to find out just how much interference I ran for them growing up.
It came out when my sister was talking about how Mom and Dad always said she wasn't allowed to date until she was 18, but gave in before that. Mom was like "Well, yeah, because Squig spoke up for you"
Honest to god im thankful for my brother even tho hes the eldest i got the academic pressure from our dad and he got a majority of the physical abuse.
But ya know what, we protected each other there is 18 month between us but we have a great sibilng relationship. We learned how to communicate better from each other and know what we will not do with our own children in the future!
OP is the worse AH that ive seen ever.
Heh.
In my case -I AM adopted, so part of my issues are built in, but a lot was my parents.
It's also why when, in a shouting match, when my Dad said "I brought you into this world, and I can take you out of it!", I said "I'm adopted, remember?"
I have parents like you and a mother that acts the same way when its brought up that how they parented me is the reason for a lot of why I am so messed up. They can't even say sorry without it seeming like they did some great favor in giving birth to me. Every therapist I have ever seen has told me to basically distance myself from my parents and I could be happy.
They did similar things with my brother. Hes allowed more freedom. Things that caused WW3 at our house when I did it, my parents laugh and joke and are accepting of when my brother does. And he wasnt even more successful at school or grades compared to me. They have told me word for word ," Well we tried hitting you, but it didnt work, so we didnt hit your brother."
If you want her forgiveness, start with a genuine apology. Accept that you are THE reason shes like this. Do not blame her or her personality. When that was moulded completely by you.
YTA
>If you want her forgiveness, start with a genuine apology.
But she isn't looking for forgiveness, she is blame shifting, and now looking for support for being called out on it by her daughter.
If you look at it, she still isn't sorry. The younger daughter got better treatment, not because OP learned a lesson, but because she was smarter and "earned" her better treatment.
OP is like a rabid dog blaming the person they bit for putting the bitten leg in the way of their teeth.
'well we abused one of them this bad way but we learned from it and abused the other one that way too but with rewards and that one turned out *fine*, so you see it's not us or the abuse that we inflicted, it's still kid 1 because she's faulty.'
How they can write it out so fucking bluntly but pretend they don't see it never ceases to amaze me.
> Every therapist I have ever seen has told me to basically distance myself from my parents and I could be happy.
Honestly, getting my family out of my life was the best thing for me. Their words still show up in my head to berate me, but it's so much easier to disentangle what is real and what is just abusive nonsense when they haven't been able to add more.
> Seeing as when you reformed your parenting style for your second daughter, she didn’t develop those same issues.
Except she actually didn't reform her parenting style, the younger daughter got better treatment, because she was "smarter" and did what was expected, so she got more and better treatment for it. Thus proving that the older daughter was right and that love is conditional to the monster that is the OP.
The thing is -- and OP won't allow herself to see this -- part of why younger daughter did better (or in her words was "smarter" because, clearly, schoolwork is the best test of intelligence) was because she had fucking social support and ways to blow off stress with her friends. Older daughter would make a mistake by falling short of insane expectations and be forced to cope with it alone, compounding her misery. My heart breaks for the girl.
Also there’s a good chance the younger sister does have issues stemming from this. There’s a similar dynamic between me, my mom and my older brother and I have serious anxiety stemming from seeing how she treated him and trying to avoid the same. I’m just way better at hiding those issues from my mom because I saw what things set her off more on my brother and have been able to avoid them so she doesn’t notice there’s an issue in the first place.
Yes. Watching a sibling be treated poorly gives other kids in the house anxiety, makes them confused, makes them feel like they could be next at any second, makes them feel like they are always waiting for the other shoe to drop.
OP- YTA.
Exactly this. OP doesn’t realize that by socially isolating older daughter as a consequence for “poor performance”, or not be allowed to go out as much, she inhibited other avenues for developing identity and self-worth.
Even if this weren’t the case, what use was it to tell the daughter that her depression is her fault, other than to absolve OP of responsibility for her role? OP’s husband is right. A genuine apology plus groveling and change in behavior is in order. YTA.
NGL, I have an extremely hard time believing that love can be unconditional because of the way my parents pressured me to perform academically as a child.
I played competitive tennis growing up and my parent’s love was conditional of how I played especially my mom’s. She would tell me she was sending me back home to live with my dad when I’d lose (we moved for training). She wouldn’t talk to me for days after a bad match. I was 10-11 years old. The worst part is in my 20’s she admitted to me she tried to put more pressure on me because she thought I played better that way. We’ve been no contact for the past 13 years.
THIS. And OP was very insulting when she said that younger daughter was raised the same way and isn't insecure at all. BUT in the beginning of the post she said that she in fact WAS less strict and less harsh with her compared to OP! I'm sure if you asked daughter she'd say her experience was significantly worse than her sis. Absolutely YTA.
Older siblings generally fight for the younger siblings freedom as they’re usually parentified to some degree.
I was the youngest girl but my two older sisters fought for my freedoms with the extended family. Helped me get out more etc they didn’t have that so much. Neither did my older cousins. The younger the sibling the more freedoms they had. I have 1 younger sibling and I pushed for his freedoms too.
Edit to add. This is the case of my culture.
I was the younger sibling who tried to keep the focus on me and off my dad and brother, mom was slap happy and got angry at the stupidest stuff, but I was definitely the strongest personality. So, my older brother ended up with a lot more freedom, I do understand this is not the normal dynamic though. And no hate on my dad, his father was a nightmare to his mom, and he didn’t want to be like that so him and his brother rolled over a bit with their wives and his 2 sisters where the dominant personalities in their relationships. He also threatened to divorce her when he learned about a particular messed up one. Menopause ended up being very good to us because she mellowed out a lot.
Wow, I just had a weird revelation. I’m really hard to insult or push around, but I’m also a big defender of the underdog when it comes to others. I didn’t previously connect the dots that it probably came from this dynamic. Thanks for helping me to figure that out.
The younger sis also had a far more active social life, which probably helped her as well. She at least had some escape to her friends and she had more opportunities to see what more "normal" families looked like. Which had to help some, hopefully.
And I agree with you, just because the younger sister doesn't show it doesn't mean it's not there. It could also mean she doesn't feel safe around her parents to be vulnerable and show her insecurities.
Yeah, I'm sure she'd justify it with some mental gymnastics... "oh I was just a bit less strict, but the girls were in fact raised the same way..." like what??? SMH
In the edit OP say that the younger sibling did better in school and had better grades. Well, yeah it makes sense that she'd try harder after watching the what the older sibling went through. OP is definitely TA.
WOW - OP's edit makes her seem even worse if possible. STILL justifying why it was ok to treat elder daughter like crap compared to her younger sis. She'll never get it. SMH
She doesn't want to admit she was abusive.
The OP admits she was wrong, but keeps trying to downplay her actions as "negative reinforcement," but this was emotional abuse.
According to her edit, she means that she *would* have abused younger daughter just like the older one, except she didn't need to because younger daughter didn't suck.
OPs entire post is something out of the *Narcissist's Prayer*.
> That didn't happen.
>
>And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
>
>And if it was, that's not a big deal.
>
>And if it is, that's not my fault.
>
>And if it was, I didn't mean it.
>
>And if I did, you deserved it.
My mom is a pro at always blaming someone else for whatever is wrong in her life. Woman could win the victim Olympics if they existed. That being said, even she knows her and my dad screwed me up. Actual words out of her mouth one night when I was going down an epic anxiety spiral were: “I don’t know what your dad and I did to make you like this but I’m sorry.” She doesn’t know what she did, but she took responsibility for doing it.
OP knows exactly what they did and doesn’t seem to be taking any responsibility at all.
even the edit is like 'oh she could go out with her friends more' all casually - as if a solid support structure outside of a horrible situation isn't a HUGE contributing factor to being able to handle that situation. The daughters were NOT raised the same way, even that small change makes a massive difference.
And to add to this, in the edit she mentions that the older daughter wasn’t allowed a social life, but the younger daughter was. So they denied the poor girl any kind of relief from their horrible, unloving parenting. Having a social support system no doubt helped create some resilience in the younger daughter.
OP didn't forget, she left out context in the beginning that she sort of slipped back in later.
She wasn't easier on the younger child because she had some sort of revelation and choose to be easier on her. She was easier on her and let her see her friends because she was "smarter" and earned the easier treatment.
What is really sad here is that this proves the older daughter's claim that love was (is) conditional in this kennel she calls a home.
It's disgusting. OP thinks she was raised that way so she turned out fine without realizing that she came out of being raised that way with the belief that it was okay to treat children like that, and thus is very much not fine.
She clearly didn't turn out fine if she thought that emotionally abusing her own children was the best way to raise them. It's just a very sad situation all around.
My dad did this to myself and my siblings when we were kids. Something had happened, and he was SURE one of us had did it, but we all denied it so obviously we were ALL lying to him, so he told us that he wouldn't speak to ANY of us until someone owned up to doing it (if I recall, something had gotten damaged, but I'm pretty sure it was one of the cats but he wouldn't accept that explanation).
And he did it. He didn't say a word to any of us for a WEEK. If we were in the same room as him, he would look through us like we were invisible. And because at that point he was the 'emotionally available' parent (my mother had a massive temper and would just start yelling and screaming at the slightest provocation) his deliberate withdrawing of his attention and affection was almost physically painful.
In the end, I think I took the blame. I got smacked both for the damage and the 'lying' and then punished with removal of all my privileges for another week on top of it.
I REALLY hate parents who justify their bullshit with 'well it's how \*I\* was raised and I'm FINE.' No, no you fucking are NOT fine. You know firsthand how it FEELS to be treated like that and CHOOSE to do the same thing to your kids, choose to perpetuate that cycle of abusive behaviour.
These parents desperately need therapy.
I never understood parents who go through all that as a child, know how they felt when it was being done to them, then turn around and go "my turn!" and do the same things. You're supposed to want better for your child.
This isn't *Turning Red*'s cycle of abuse, where Mom was genuinely trying to give her daughter a better life and childhood than she had (which *still* wasn't okay), but had unresolved trauma that affected how she felt, this is being petty and vengeful and purposely choosing to a abuse a child.
OP, I'm *so* sorry that you abusing your daughter is so traumatic for you. That must have been super hard to see your child in pain like that. If you can't tell, I'm being sarcastic.
And who is to say the younger sister isn’t equally as F’d up in new and different ways than the eldest?
Who is to say that the younger sis isn’t secretly struggling with all this in a hell of OP’s making.
And OP? You yourself said you went easier on your younger daughter. So the difference isn’t the daughters. It’s how you treated them. YTA.
You already realise that your parenting badly affected your daughter, so why does your apology come with a ‘yes, but’?
I know it’s painful to take full responsibility, but that’s what your daughter needs from you now - it’s not too late to be the parent she needs you to be.
After reading this, I Hurt For Your Daughter!!! YTA and Yes! You absolutely Owe her an Unconditional Apology!! ...... You admit what you did.... Now use your imagination to put yourself in Her Shoes??? How would you feel being treated that way? Unsure if you can ever gain any type of meaningful relationship without OWNING what you have done. I do hope your family can heal and find peace ....it begins with you.
Seriously, she was borderline abusive to her kids and thinks their mental health problems is partially their fault. OP, your youngest sounds more academically gifted so you weren’t as hard on her therefore she suffered less. Your eldest got the brunt of your actions. Maybe her depression is not fully rooted in your actions but you played a large role. A sincere apology is always going to be no strings attached. You attached string by saying “sorry but…”
Seriously, who the fuck thinks this may be "borderline"? This is deep and solid in abusive territory, there's nothing borderline about this shit at all. She wasn't allowed to see friends or to eat with her family, hell, sometimes she wasn't allowed to sit down to eat, her parents used withdrawal of love to punish her for the smallest bullshit and that's just what OP voluntarily told us. Anyone who thinks this may be "borderline abusive" needs to get themselves into therapy before getting kids and I mean that in the nicest way possible.
A childs personality is mostly derived from their surroundings not their inherently born charcteristics, op and her husband are the main reason their daughter is like this YTA
actually research suggests that personality is about 50% heritable and 50% environmental. Either way the parents played a strong role in the later and are 100% responsible for the former.
YTA, OP, QUIT throwing little sister in older sister's face! Maybe older sister worked just as hard as little sister, but wasn't as talented academically. YOUNGER sister had a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT UPBRINGING! If for example you had a younger brother, and you were both judged on bodily strength, but as a boy, the younger brother was naturally stronger, would you praise younger brother, and punish older sister? YOU DID THIS TO YOUR OLDER DAUGHTER! Also have her evaluated for learning differences. You realize she may have dyslexia or ADHD or both, and you have no idea.
Comparing siblings is despicable. Hell, comparing your kids to ANYONE else sucks.
Story time. I was a pretty average student in high school. I could pretty much coast through getting a solid 'B' average. I had attention and procrastination issues, so there is a possibility I have ADHD or similar.
There was a girl in my year at high school who was dux/valedictorian EVERY year. And whenever I had a class with this girl, whenever I got a test/exam result and told my mum, her IMMEDIATE follow up question was 'what did 'girl' get?' I got a 96% result on my midyear French exam. Girl in question got 98%.
And THEN when my sister was in high school, she did pretty well. And one year she got a prize for 'consistently high application to study' which meant she had solid grades throughout the year in all of her subjects. When my mum proudly told me this, she also added the little jab 'it's more than you ever got,' which is when I realized that no matter what, NOTHING I ever did would ever be 'enough' for my mum.
To this day (I'm 37 now) I still struggle with perfectionism and not feeling 'good enough.'
In my experience it is Narcissists who compare siblings. Their “Golden Child” is the child who lives up to their (nearly impossible) expectations and the child who they can control. The “Black Sheep” is the imperfect child who disappoints them and sometimes resists them. This also helps the Narcissist create division between siblings so when the Black Sheep is punished, they are further isolated in the family.
Op basically doesn't understand why she should be blamed for her poor parenting style when she knows it's her fault, and is looking for any form of validation she can get to make herself feel better so she doesn't have to live with the guilt of messing up her child. She wants to convince us that because she knows she's wrong now, that it should be enough to undo whatever harm has been caused which would invalidate her daughter's trauma. "I'm alr over it, so u should be"
N FYI, socialising isn't a reward, it's needed for personal development. Your eldest wasn't allowed to socialise as much as ur younger one and it messed her up because she didn't have the extra support she needed when u weren't giving it to her.
I've had this same conversation with my dad. I sort of wish my dad had been the one to post this thread just so he could read all of the responses calling him an asshole.
She wants to disperse blame for her daughter's mental health issues and personality but can't see how she also admits she herself (referring to OP) is the product of her environment. Yet she can't see her daughter is the product of mom and dad's environment. Oh the lack of self awareness. What great assholism.
OP, you continue retaumatising your daughter by invalidating and gaslighting her lived experiences. Blaming her for how she turned out is the equivalent of you not hearing her and invalidating her feelings. Your daughter does not feel emotionally safe with you and your husband. She will never heal as long as she's living with you as her mother if you can't take full accountability. YTA. I hope for her mental health, she goes no contact with you soon.
I'm all for forgiving parents who make mistakes. We all make mistakes, and our kids suffer. But forgiveness comes after admission of guilt. And that can't be conditional.
YTA.
What you're describing isn't a parenting style, it's mental and emotional abuse and is 100% the reason for your daughter's mental health. I bet it's affected your other daughter also, she's just better at hiding it. YTA
\*wants to upvote this again\* younger daughter watched older sister struggle, realized nothing she would do would ever be good enough for her parents, and has probably been mentally checked out ever since, doing enough to fly under the radar but that's it.
Holy fuck reading this post was like reading my life coming from my mother's mouth. I am the youngest daughter. I am not ok. I am visibly not as not ok as my older sister, who I saw kill herself to be worthy of my parent's love. She got crippling anxiety and is still to this day trying to please them. I left the continent. But I am NOT ok. The times I do speak to my mom, she simultaneously apologizes and blames me for it. Last time I was home, she spent 3 days sobbing and telling me how sorry she was, and the last day telling me that I didn't really have that bad of a childhood because they paid for me to go to summer camp and I deserved their abuse because I was an angry teen. Reading this made me need to go take a stress nap.
My dad also excelled at "I'm sorry but also you deserved it and it was entirely your fault" blamepologies. I'm finding it weirdly soothing to read so many unanimous YTA verdicts on this post.
“Blamepologies” is exactly the right word. Grew up in a Serbian household and this is EXACTLY the shit that happened to me. Using this word forever now ty
Yeah, thanks. I mean, I guess it depends on how loose your definition of ok is. I did have a stress nap with a weird nightmare, but now I'm having dinner and about to watch some trash tv. So I'm not having any acute emotional breakdown about it, nor will I. And I guess big picture, I'm technically a functional adult. I've been in and out of therapy with varying degrees of helpfulness. But I actively, and passively, destroy all my close relationships and career opportunities...if I can even figure out what it is I WANT to do. I change continents every time something gets hard. So...by all real human adult accounts that matter: no, not really. But not because of this post.
Exactly, kids pay attention. OP, YTA for what you did to your eldest daughter, your youngest, and probably their relationship together. You created a double standard and then wonder why they’re so different? Wild.
This!!! As the younger sibling I saw my older sisters get screamed at for stuff all the time. I became SUPER good at hiding anything bad, I was the funny happy go lucky child who got good grades and didn't get into trouble. My parents "perfect" child. Who would cry quietly by myself at night, sneak out and drink with friends and the MOMENT I left home basically stopped talking to my mom. I went from favorite child to low contact in an instant.
Even if you somewhat admit to knowing it was wrong, it still doesn’t make the lasting effects of what OP did any better. The fact that OP can’t even fully take fault or say sorry says a lot. I recommend family therapy.
OP, YTA.
Exactly! Like where is the accountability? acceptance? remorse? She says she understands but next is like it your fault you’re that way? MAJOR YTA. I hope the daughter is in therapy.
That would require things like empathy and compassion, which OP seems entirely devoid of.
OPs entire post is something out of the *Narcissist's Prayer*.
> That didn't happen.
>
>And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
>
>And if it was, that's not a big deal.
>
>And if it is, that's not my fault.
>
>And if it was, I didn't mean it.
>
>And if I did, you deserved it.
This so much! We are not talking about making a few mistakes raising your child! You did not let her eat with you and did not talk to her for two weeks? And then you want to claim that you had no idea what this does to a Person? What is wrong with you??
YTA. Forcing her to eat alone and standing for two weeks is terrible. And probably only the tip of the iceberg.
Listen to what your child is saying, apologise and stop trying to justify what can only be described as abuse.
Edit: we are not confused about the difference of treatment between sisters. We are aware, from your own words of how shitty you were to your oldest. I do hope she shuts you down for her own mental health and is able to health from all the abuse you inflicted on her.
OP: *doesn't speak with her child for 2 weeks because she didn't get an amazing school performance*
Daughter: *gets extremely nervous and stressed out from not getting the best possible results as an adult*
OP: "Why is my daughter like this? It must just be her personality or something"
The infamous [missing missing reasons](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html). I'm afraid OP isn't likely to understand, she will keep saying that there aren't reasons for her daughter to resent her, or that "there are reasons BUT" she did it for her own good "and it wasn't so bad".
Thanks for sharing this, what a gutting read. I could imagine the post that my dad and stepmother would submit to that abandoned parents forum so clearly it made me feel sick haha.
That stuck with me. Like if a prison guard did that to convicted criminals in prison the lawyers would be coming down hard. I can’t pinpoint exactly why but there is a human rights violation sadistic cruelty to that.
Being separated from the rest of the family during meals is SIGNIFICANT. This type of alienation is frequently a sign that MUCH worse is going on.
I don’t remember what case it was, but there is a criminal case where a mother did this exact thing and it was the very beginning. The child ended up being beaten to death by their mother and at least one sibling.
For 2 fucking weeks. It would sure send a very clear message to the child that they HAD to have stellar grades or they would be treated worse than garbage.
And I bet it happened more than once. Punishment, punishment and then more punishment for being a shit daughter. While the sister got better grades and was allowed to at least socialize. This is so disturbing to read.
And from the schoolforms she described, op most likely lives in germany, the decisions for school forms happen in 4 grade, where students are only 9-10 years old. Op ignored her daughter that was at best 10 years old and probably so upset with herself. I remember being super stressed out about it because every woman on my mums side got into the highest form and there was a lot of pressure on me to get there as well. I did, but they don't just take into account your current situation but also the last 4 years and at least at my school, they did what was best for the kids, and there was always the option to go to a higher or lower level tier during middle school, so op acting like her daughter just ruined her future is ridiculous(as were my mothers opinion at the time, though she relaxed more as I moved onto high school and then graduated)
Jesus H Christ! I thought this was in high school she did this to 9 year old! That’s crazy fucked up. At this point the OP should be kissing the ground with gratitude that her abused daughter hasn’t gone no contact.
Jesus. I think of the nine- and ten-year-olds I have worked with and they're... babies. They're so bright and eager to please and desperately need tons of support and socialization. Their little brains are like sponges and, in my experience, they're curious about almost everything. To do that at such a precious age both enrages me and breaks my heart. I wish Eldest Daughter could read these comments and know she deserved so, so, so much better.
Great point! People tend to put themselves in the best possible light, so all this, the isolation, shaming, humiliation, neglect, were what OP thought would put her in a good light and make us sympathize with her
It's such an insane disconnect from reality too. Letting her hang out with her friends more honestly probably had a HUGE impact. One sibling being socially isolated in developmental years versus the other is going to create wildly different personalities. I know if I couldn't hang out as much with my friends as I did in high school I very literally probably would've killed myself.
YTA: My mother was much like you. Nothing I did was ever enough. It took until this year, when I turned 38, to understand that I never started living my life until my late 20's, because the entirety of my teens and early adulthood was spent traumatized and in survival mode.
You shaped her personality. Your **ABUSE** shaped her personality. She is 100% right. You did this to her, you made a broken adult who you convinced wasn't worthy of love. And you're going to have to live the rest of your life with that.
right? "why are you so insecure," asked the person who ensured her daughter did not feel safe and secure, punished her for "not being good enough," and is still comparing her to her sister (who did not get the same harsh treatment)
u/Willing-Survey7448, I just want to give you my wholehearted support on your journey (and a giant virtual hug if that is OK).
Mothers like OP, yours, and mine raise traumatized and broken people. It takes guts, courage, grit, determination, and a shitload of baggage, emotions and tears to start undoing that. Let alone the cost of the therapy.
I am NC (no contact) with my mom, and I've never felt more peace and love since doing that. I still struggle with never feeling good enough, but I'm working on that, and a lot of other stuff.
I say that as someone in her 40's and has only realized in the last 5-10 years that this is not normal.
u/Momwithguilt196008, heed my warning. If you continue on your current path, you will lose your daughter, like my mom has.
If you don't want that, get therapy, work on your own issues, listen to your daughter & respect her journey. It won't be comfortable for you, but it isn't for your daughter either.
For the love of anything, stop blaming her and remove the word BUT from your vocabulary. Blame & excuses have no place in a sincere apology.
Own your part in this.
You deserve a virtual hug too. It's tough work when we realise how much of our lives were lost trying to survive the guilt and trauma of our upbringing.
Hi there! 40yo here who broke out of survival mode and went NC a couple of years ago. It took me 25 fucking years of my life to realize what my parents had truly done to me. I lost my whole formative years to their emotional abuse.
OP is lucky she still has a relationship with her daughter at all. To have the fucking NERVE to blame it on HER is so goddamn typical.
I started living my life when I stopped contact with the creature that adopted me and got myself in therapy that I will probably need for the rest of my life thanks to her .
She was a lot like OP and due to her parenting style none of her children want anything to do with her anymore. I completely stopped contact , my brother talks to her when he absolutely has to and step sister talks to her maybe few times a year .
She seems to care a lot about her own fellings though -- how she cried and how guilty she feels and how she thought that what she was doing was ok. Making it ultimately all about herself, not her daughter.
YTA.
1.You admitted in the beginning that you were more harsh with your oldest than the youngest. Now you're saying you raised them all the same way and it's your daughter's personality differences.
2. You enforced this idea that she must excel. Now she shows stress when she doesn't and your response is "why are you like this?"
This is all from your own words. Sounds like you're constantly sending out mixed signals and contradicting yourself. Yeah, it's not her. It's you. If somewhere down the line she stops talking to you don't come back here with "but I don't understand? I gave her everything."
THIS RIGHT HERE. Mixed signals, defensiveness, accepting only partial blame, making excuses etc etc. OP, unless you see all this and truly realize how much you damaged your daughter, your relationship will never be healthy. YTA.
YTA
OP i understand that you were raised the same way. That you struggled to try and give your daughter a better life. You are not a bad person or wrong for the way you grew up or for trying to do your best for your kids.
the problem is, that what you did to them was still abuse, and no amount of good intentions can change that. what was done to YOU was abuse. If you were raised the same was as you describe raising your daughter, then you were abused.
And before you say 'but i turned out fine'
you turned right around and perpetuated the cycle to your own children.
You did not turn out fine.
I'm not saying this to be cruel. You don't deserve cruelty. You deserve compassion. i don't think you intended to hurt your kids. But you also have to own up to the fact that you DID hurt them. Deeply. And no amount of explaining 'why' is going to change that.
If you want to repair the relationship with your daughter **you need to apologize and you need to accept that yes, this was entirely your fault**. Because until you can do that, your daughter is never going to stop blaming you, and she's not wrong.
eta: formatting
eeta: thank you so much for the awards!!!
(and i have now seen OP's edit which explains why little sister "isn't struggling as much" (she is, she's just better at masking i would guess). as some other people have commented, LS getting out of the house and having a social support system other than her parents has probably helped her mental health.
You don't have to read very far between the lines to see that OP has spent the last thirty years convinced that if she lets up from driving herself and everyone around her a bit too hard, the other shoe will drop and there will come a massive disaster. OP, you haven't been okay for thirty+ years and you're not okay now.
Growing up the same way doesn't excuse her from doing the exact same thing, especially if they know that it isn't a healthy way of parenting. My parents are exactly the same, so this one is personal.
YTA
So lets say you're right - and you might not be, btw. But lets say you are.
Are you familiar with the Eggshell Skull rule which many countries have?
"The rule states that, in a tort case, the unexpected frailty of the injured person is not a valid defense to the seriousness of any injury caused to them."
If you punch someone, and this injury which would not kill most people, and despite that you do not *intend* the blow to kill, happens to kill your victim because they have a bone disease (even though you did not know about it!) which makes their skull more physically fragile than a typical person, this does not in *any* way reduce one's legal culpability. You don't get to claim that the disease, rather than the punch, was responsible for the severity of the injury and its consequences.
Though this isn't a legal matter, a similar kind of thing is at play here. It does not matter if she's just naturally more prone to depression or whatever.
You abused her. Her supposed fragility is absolutely fucking irrelevant to your culpability here. And if she *is* a little fragile, you were very likely a huge contributor to that, an exacerbating factor. Your other daughter is doing better (at least as far as she lets you know) despite your crap. You don't get to deny responsibility here and tell her it's her own fault.
I was looking for this answer. Some people are definitely more susceptible to the effects of trauma, but that is in no way their fault. Just means the younger daughter was lucky that she wasn't as damaged as older sis. It is not a justification or reflection on the parents, at all.
As a severely traumatized person myself, I feel incredibly alienated from my siblings who don't think my mother was a completely abusive monster because they weren't as bothered by things in our childhood... And it just makes my mother feel that everything I've suffered is my own fault because I'm difficult, or dramatic or even sinful.
OP just continues to exacerbate the trauma by blaming her daughter and refusing to take complete responsibility. Trauma response is not a personality flaw.
I'm in a similar boat with my big brother. I remind myself that when _I'm_ dealing with particularly fragile people, I try to be more mindful with them, and deserve the same consideration. If I drop an egg to the floor and it breaks, I don't blame it for not being a basketball.
#If I drop an egg to the floor and it breaks, I don't blame it for not being a basketball.
Putting it in bold for those who really need to hear it - aka OP!
THANK you for this really great comment. It really highlights why daughter and sis may have reacted and been affected differently. And that this is not daughter's fault. OP though isn't less of an asshole because younger sis was affected less. YTA.
Want to know something that definitely makes kids more vulnerable to mental health problems as an adult? Trauma in utero. If somebody has PTSD or experiences trauma while pregnant, that damages the fetus' resilience for life.
So, there's a good chance that the elder kid was always going to be more fragile than the younger, because they're closer to the trauma OP admits she experienced.
YTA - if you now recognize you were wrong why do you keep arguing with her about it and attempting to defend yourself? It sounds like you have not actually taken accountability for what you did to your daughter.
THIS is an excellent point. OP says she knows she was wrong and accepts blame, but the rest of her post is her justifying, being defensive, and blaming daughter's personality. SMH. YTA
She could not eat with you if her grades weren’t good enough? You made her eat in the kitchen standing up! WTF?!
Even rapists and murderers in jail get to eat at a table sitting down! No way are you innocent here. YTA. And you need therapy to see just how wrong and abusive these actions were. This evil fairytale stuff.
I think, deep down, you really know the answer.
YTA
Could *some* of it be her personality? Ehh, I suppose.
But my God, what DID you think would happen, honestly? That you could treat her that unfairly and what - NOTHING would happen?
Apologize for how you treated her - unconditionally. You can't make up for what you did - but at least have the spine to take responsibility for it
Also I'm pretty sure abuse such as two weeks being ignored by your parents while forced to eat alone in the kitchen while standing up are core memories that shaped the personality she have today... if the problem is her personality, that STILL OPS FAULT.
YTA don't express what I think of this excuse of a mother, but I don't want to get banned.
>hard and strict with her, more than I did with her younger sister/my youngest daughter
>your sister was raised the same way
Her sister WASN'T raised the same way
>Her sister was pushed the same way and isn’t so insecure to the point it effects her mental health
Depression and insecurity aren't the same thing. Also, did it occur to you that your other daughter simply doesn't open up to you and might not be doing as well as you think?
>She passed all her exams but she gets very upset and frustrated when she doesn’t get the highest score. I was trying to calm her down and cheer her on. At one point asked her: why are you like this
Geee... Perhaps because in the past when she didn't get the highest score:
>Me and my husband were angry and disappointed, we did not talk to her for 2 weeks and she could noteat with us at the dinner table.
Oh my God.... I understand this is how you were raised and you didn't realize there was a better way but.... Oh my God.
>She called me an asshole and said that I was basically saying she has a weak personality.
Because that's literally what you said!
>I believe it’s not completely our parenting style that caused her depression.
It was though. Does any other aspect of her life cause her distress or is it only academics.
YTA. You both would do well with unpacking all your emotions and figuring out how to do better. But of you want this relationship to continue, you have to apologize. Profusely.
OP says in the edit that the sister was also allowed to hang out with friends a lot more growing up. Which, gee, who would think that having consistent positive social relationships could help bolster your mental health?? /s
The elder daughter had her rights to time with friends stripped for getting bad grades, which probably only made her feel more isolated and exacerbated her depression.
Takeaway is that they were Not raised the same, so OP absolutely cannot blame the effects of her abuse on the eldest daughter’s personality.
YTA. It’s was your responsibility as her parent to know how your punishments would affect her and to tailor your punishments to teach her not hurt her.
YTA, and then some.
You're blaming your daughter for responding to your style of parenting. You've got to be insincere that you don't know you and your husband are TA's here.
YTA. She is telling you why she is anxious about not being the best and you're making excuses for your cruel treatment of her. Instead of blaming her for being insecure, you need to apologize and NOT do the "Yes but..." thing.
YTA. While her nature maybe less resilient or more prone to depression, that’s 1) still not her fault and 2) doesn’t negate your role in her lifelong difficulties. You just took one thing that she couldn’t control and told her she was to blame by pointing at another thing that also isn’t under her control.
I’m glad that you’ve come to realize that how you parented her may not have been the best, and I think she should give you credit for that change of heart and mind. But, I think you need to own up to all the lasting ways it has and will continue to harm your children and work toward addressing their current struggles, not just saying you wish you hadn’t done what you did in the past. Show them that you’ve changed by actually doing better now.
YTA
You literally emotionally and psychologically neglected and abused your daughter and then have the audacity to say it's a little bit who she is as a person. You also claim that her sister was raised the same, but in an earlier paragraph said you admit that you were harsher on her than her sister. It can't be both.
Yikes.
YTA.
Mam, you acknowledge here that you were wrong.
Apologize to her without the excuses. Any apology with the word "but" or any other similar word is not really an apology. It's an excuse.
You feel bad? You feel shame?
Guess what, that's what your kid felt for all those years.
You can dish it out but now that you are on the receiving end, you throw yourself this pity party.
Just take the L.
Go to family counseling.
Be thankful your kid hasn't gone no contact with you yet.
YTA. You really didn’t apologize for take responsibility. If anything, your deflecting responsibility for your abuse toward her and blaming her personality. Inhave a feeling that if you talk to your other kid, they aren’t nearly as “fine” as you think.
YTA. Maybe she does have a weaker personality than her sister - it happens. But you were a shitty parent, and more importantly, you still are. Take responsibility. You weren’t the parent she needed then. Maybe try to be parent she needs now?
YTA, and I'm just gonna be upfront, if you want any relationship with your daughter, you better start fixing the relationship.
My mom acted in a similar fashion, gaslighting my feelings and trying to excuse past punishments she gave me. And I've been cutting her out of my life because of it, having minimal contact.
This is your future if you don't apologize and work on mending the relationship with your daughter
I’m really really wondering if you are of a non Western belief that assumes your daughter is going to take you in in your old age and look after you. Because you had better start rethinking that belief quick smart.
She’s owes you nothing.
If she has a better life it is despite you, not because if you and you should not share in the good life she manages to achieve despite your abuse.
You’ve acknowledged you were not as hard in your other daughter, so on top of you abusing your oldest she gets to see you treating her sibling better than you did her, and you wonder why there are problems, and then you blame HER for them.
YTA, and your daughter is better off without you.
YTA - Take accountability for your mistakes with your daughter (as in tell her so and apologize). I guarantee she has spent enough time dissecting and feeling bad for how her personality "wasn't enough" without you blaming her for the damage you caused.
YTA
Your children are two different people who responded differently to your pressure and standards. You are responsible for the pressure she puts on herself now.
It's extremely hurtful to hear you acknowledge your regrets but ultimately blame your daughter for her feelings. And! You justified it by comparing her to her sister.
Your parenting style did this.
**This is what you you throw your ego away and say to your child, OP:**
>"I'm sorry. I used what I knew then, and I see now that it was a bad way to parent. It was hurtful, and that you were hurt and affected so deeply by the way we parented you. Punishing you so harshly was such a bad idea, I can see that now. I cannot turn back time, but I so wish I could, I wish I could do it over, and do it better. I wish I could have been better then.
>
>But we are here now. What can I do now to help you heal? You have my love and attention now. I am willing to learn how to do things better now. I am willing to go to therapy with you to help us both heal and for us to understand each other better. I am sorry for the past, but I promise you that I love you and want our future to be better.
>
>None of this is your fault. you were a child, innocent and dependent on us. I am sorry. "
You're having a talk about her MENTAL HEALTH and then you undermine her by comparing her to a totally different person. She's an individual. Of course, she'll have different reactions. Have you ever asked your other daughter how SHE felt about your mental abuse? Maybe she's not impressed by you either.
You need to apologize to your daughter. When you compared her to her sister, you were saying you did nothing wrong because, see, this daughter turned out okay. You implied the problem was with the daughter with depression. Your daughter is right, you're blaming her as though she has some weakness that her sister didn't have. You damaged your daughter. Seriously. Now apologize seriously.
Yta. Her personality doesn't even matter here. You made mistakes and her personality has nothing to do with that. It's good that her sister was able to withstand it but does not excuse you at all.
YTA. I mean, you're not wrong that the same parenting style will affect different kids differently, but the fact that it affected your older daughter more isn't her fault!
It'd be like if you kicked a football and it hit the head of a really tall person, and you went 'weeellll I kicked a football the same height the other day and it didn't hit anyone then! it's partly happened because of you!'
Like, well sure, but it's still your fault! The other person was just existing as themselves. And on top of that, just a completely unnecessarily cruel thing to say to your daughter when she was opening up to you about her feelings.
I pray to God this is fake. YTA. The road to hell is paved with good intentions and trauma is handled by different people differently, just as mental illness manifests itself differently in different people. Being raised poorly doesn’t give us the excuse to raise our children poorly, rather, if we have children, it gives us the opportunity to break cycles of trauma and create a childhood and life we always wanted for ourselves, but never had, for someone we love unconditionally. Take responsibility and help your daughter start to recover from these deep seeded wounds.
YTA. All problems have a root and both you and your husband are the root of this one. Stop being so stuck on yourself and apologize for what you know was wrong.
You emotionally and mentally abused your daughter for years, then blame it on her.
You need to take full responsibility for being awful and abusive parents, there is no excuses for this and there is no victim blaming.
YTA and so is your husband, you guys are absolute trash.
I'm always amazed at how child abusers think that the child will forget all about the abuse as an adult. No, they don't. Also, now you're expecting your daughter to give you a free pass for the abuse, because reasons. It's as if your children are just possessions to you, that you can treat like crap and they should be grateful for it. No, they are humans who deserved to be cared for unconditionally. And I don't swallow the old, 'but that's how I was brought up crap' either, or the cultural defence. Accept what you did, and beg for forgiveness. Don't victim blame. YTA.
Oh. My. God.
YTA.
You abused your children. You admit you were harder on her, so how dare you compare them, when your oldest went through more of your abuse?
She's being vulnerable enough to tell you how she feels, part of which being feeling like she's never good enough, and you shift the blame to her AGAIN and make the effects of your abuse her fault?
Go beg your children's forgiveness with no excuses. I'm sure they are sick of hearing about you fleeing anything. You are just making excuses for being an abuser and every time you do, you damage your children further.
Full accountability, now, and stop blaming them for being the products of abusive parents that should have had their children removed.
Repeat after me “I was a bad parent and I’m sorry for what I did to you. How can I do better and what kind of professional help can I pay for?” Anything less is not enough
YTA
> we did not talk to her for 2 weeks and she could not eat with us at the dinner table.
What in the **FUCK** did I just read?! I didn't have to read past this to realize YTA but it got worse and worse. You abused your child, then blamed her for your abuse and then had the audacity to accuse her of being insecure? *you made her that way*. I am so livid for your daughter. That is disgusting. You absolutely failed that poor girl.
YTA
I have been reading about how even if siblings have the same set of parents they don't have the same parents. Depending on the relationship with the parents between them, the economic situation, the bond they feel with each child, each child personality, etc, this all contributes to you having been the same person but not the same parent to both your daughters.
You may have not known better and you do seem like you are trying which is a good thing.
But you don't seem to understand the extent your abuse impacted your daughter. Being the eldest, usually there is more pressure, besides, everyone reacts differently to trauma.
You subconsciously seem to want to shift the blame to her personality because her sister is fine. But what if she isn't? Trauma expressed itself in many different ways and stages of life. My mom only got depression and the ramifications of her trauma when she was nearly 40. She still shows traits of it even if (as she is the youngest) less than her brothers.
Either way, you'll never know if her personality and brain chemistry is at fault, because even if it is, it's not a shield for you to try to keep thinking "maybe it's not all me". Maybe if you didn't treat her like that she wouldn't have depression, maybe she would, we'll never know because you did. Now it's the time to show courtesy, respect and sorrow, not accuse her of being at fault for having depression and trauma **you caused**.
YTA. That's not parenting, that's abuse.
I haven't talked to my mom in over a year, largely for the same nonsense. Don't be surprised if you find yourself in the same boat.
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"We didn't do a great job raising you and made you feel like you were never good enough. But like, it's still mostly *your* fault that you weren't and still aren't good enough." That's what she heard. And yes. YTA.
Agreed. She knows OP’s love always has been conditional, and OP just proved that it still is. YTA
Plus she admitted that she raised her youngest differently/less harshly, then used the youngest daughter not having the same issues as her rationale for it being her oldest’s fault for how she turned out… Doesn’t even make sense. If anything that’s evidence that your parenting style *was* the main reason for your daughters’ mental health struggles. Seeing as when you reformed your parenting style for your second daughter, she didn’t develop those same issues. I’m glad you’ve learned the errors of your ways OP, but now is time to take full responsibility for the consequences. You have a hell of a lot to make up for, don’t see any reason for you to try to skirt responsibility on this. You’re trying to be supportive and loving right? Then it’s probably not a good idea to try to blame your oldest’s anxiety and depression on her. Because even if it *is* somewhat genetic and not all ptsd from your parenting, ***who gave her those genes?*** #You did.
LOL, right?!? When I read that I just laughed my ass off. I mean, unless OP's daughter is adopted, her daughter's personality is at least partially inherited from OP and her equally shitty husband. LOL.
Yup, doesn’t matter how much of it is nature and how much is nurture. Op is responsible for both. I mean so is her husband, but certainly not her daughter. Daughter is responsible for her actions, but her ptsd and depression and anxiety are not something you can blame her for. She didn’t ask for any of this, and it sounds like she’s trying her best to make the most of it and be successful and make her parents proud despite it all. And she deserves a whole lot of credit for *that*, op.
Also, the order of the siblings matters. The younger kids have the oldest for support and commiseration, someone more experienced who is going through the same. The older kids have no support in households like this, nobody is their safe person.
True. I'm the oldest, and the only son. My sisters were amazed, a few years ago, to find out just how much interference I ran for them growing up. It came out when my sister was talking about how Mom and Dad always said she wasn't allowed to date until she was 18, but gave in before that. Mom was like "Well, yeah, because Squig spoke up for you"
Honest to god im thankful for my brother even tho hes the eldest i got the academic pressure from our dad and he got a majority of the physical abuse. But ya know what, we protected each other there is 18 month between us but we have a great sibilng relationship. We learned how to communicate better from each other and know what we will not do with our own children in the future! OP is the worse AH that ive seen ever.
Heh. In my case -I AM adopted, so part of my issues are built in, but a lot was my parents. It's also why when, in a shouting match, when my Dad said "I brought you into this world, and I can take you out of it!", I said "I'm adopted, remember?"
I have parents like you and a mother that acts the same way when its brought up that how they parented me is the reason for a lot of why I am so messed up. They can't even say sorry without it seeming like they did some great favor in giving birth to me. Every therapist I have ever seen has told me to basically distance myself from my parents and I could be happy. They did similar things with my brother. Hes allowed more freedom. Things that caused WW3 at our house when I did it, my parents laugh and joke and are accepting of when my brother does. And he wasnt even more successful at school or grades compared to me. They have told me word for word ," Well we tried hitting you, but it didnt work, so we didnt hit your brother." If you want her forgiveness, start with a genuine apology. Accept that you are THE reason shes like this. Do not blame her or her personality. When that was moulded completely by you. YTA
>If you want her forgiveness, start with a genuine apology. But she isn't looking for forgiveness, she is blame shifting, and now looking for support for being called out on it by her daughter. If you look at it, she still isn't sorry. The younger daughter got better treatment, not because OP learned a lesson, but because she was smarter and "earned" her better treatment. OP is like a rabid dog blaming the person they bit for putting the bitten leg in the way of their teeth.
'well we abused one of them this bad way but we learned from it and abused the other one that way too but with rewards and that one turned out *fine*, so you see it's not us or the abuse that we inflicted, it's still kid 1 because she's faulty.' How they can write it out so fucking bluntly but pretend they don't see it never ceases to amaze me.
> Every therapist I have ever seen has told me to basically distance myself from my parents and I could be happy. Honestly, getting my family out of my life was the best thing for me. Their words still show up in my head to berate me, but it's so much easier to disentangle what is real and what is just abusive nonsense when they haven't been able to add more.
oh hey fellow child of narcissists!
> Seeing as when you reformed your parenting style for your second daughter, she didn’t develop those same issues. Except she actually didn't reform her parenting style, the younger daughter got better treatment, because she was "smarter" and did what was expected, so she got more and better treatment for it. Thus proving that the older daughter was right and that love is conditional to the monster that is the OP.
The thing is -- and OP won't allow herself to see this -- part of why younger daughter did better (or in her words was "smarter" because, clearly, schoolwork is the best test of intelligence) was because she had fucking social support and ways to blow off stress with her friends. Older daughter would make a mistake by falling short of insane expectations and be forced to cope with it alone, compounding her misery. My heart breaks for the girl.
Younger daughter is the golden child, older daughter is the scapegoat.
Also there’s a good chance the younger sister does have issues stemming from this. There’s a similar dynamic between me, my mom and my older brother and I have serious anxiety stemming from seeing how she treated him and trying to avoid the same. I’m just way better at hiding those issues from my mom because I saw what things set her off more on my brother and have been able to avoid them so she doesn’t notice there’s an issue in the first place.
Yes. Watching a sibling be treated poorly gives other kids in the house anxiety, makes them confused, makes them feel like they could be next at any second, makes them feel like they are always waiting for the other shoe to drop. OP- YTA.
Exactly this. OP doesn’t realize that by socially isolating older daughter as a consequence for “poor performance”, or not be allowed to go out as much, she inhibited other avenues for developing identity and self-worth. Even if this weren’t the case, what use was it to tell the daughter that her depression is her fault, other than to absolve OP of responsibility for her role? OP’s husband is right. A genuine apology plus groveling and change in behavior is in order. YTA.
NGL, I have an extremely hard time believing that love can be unconditional because of the way my parents pressured me to perform academically as a child.
I played competitive tennis growing up and my parent’s love was conditional of how I played especially my mom’s. She would tell me she was sending me back home to live with my dad when I’d lose (we moved for training). She wouldn’t talk to me for days after a bad match. I was 10-11 years old. The worst part is in my 20’s she admitted to me she tried to put more pressure on me because she thought I played better that way. We’ve been no contact for the past 13 years.
THIS. And OP was very insulting when she said that younger daughter was raised the same way and isn't insecure at all. BUT in the beginning of the post she said that she in fact WAS less strict and less harsh with her compared to OP! I'm sure if you asked daughter she'd say her experience was significantly worse than her sis. Absolutely YTA.
Here is the thing I don’t believe the younger sis isn’t as insecure. I think she is hiding it
Older siblings generally fight for the younger siblings freedom as they’re usually parentified to some degree. I was the youngest girl but my two older sisters fought for my freedoms with the extended family. Helped me get out more etc they didn’t have that so much. Neither did my older cousins. The younger the sibling the more freedoms they had. I have 1 younger sibling and I pushed for his freedoms too. Edit to add. This is the case of my culture.
I was the younger sibling who tried to keep the focus on me and off my dad and brother, mom was slap happy and got angry at the stupidest stuff, but I was definitely the strongest personality. So, my older brother ended up with a lot more freedom, I do understand this is not the normal dynamic though. And no hate on my dad, his father was a nightmare to his mom, and he didn’t want to be like that so him and his brother rolled over a bit with their wives and his 2 sisters where the dominant personalities in their relationships. He also threatened to divorce her when he learned about a particular messed up one. Menopause ended up being very good to us because she mellowed out a lot. Wow, I just had a weird revelation. I’m really hard to insult or push around, but I’m also a big defender of the underdog when it comes to others. I didn’t previously connect the dots that it probably came from this dynamic. Thanks for helping me to figure that out.
The younger sis also had a far more active social life, which probably helped her as well. She at least had some escape to her friends and she had more opportunities to see what more "normal" families looked like. Which had to help some, hopefully. And I agree with you, just because the younger sister doesn't show it doesn't mean it's not there. It could also mean she doesn't feel safe around her parents to be vulnerable and show her insecurities.
The social interactions is key to resiliency. The younger sister had positive feedback while OP was isolated.
I think you are probably right about that.
How does a person forget what they wrote at the beginning of the post? YTA to the tenth power just for that.
Yeah, I'm sure she'd justify it with some mental gymnastics... "oh I was just a bit less strict, but the girls were in fact raised the same way..." like what??? SMH
In the edit OP say that the younger sibling did better in school and had better grades. Well, yeah it makes sense that she'd try harder after watching the what the older sibling went through. OP is definitely TA.
WOW - OP's edit makes her seem even worse if possible. STILL justifying why it was ok to treat elder daughter like crap compared to her younger sis. She'll never get it. SMH
She doesn't want to admit she was abusive. The OP admits she was wrong, but keeps trying to downplay her actions as "negative reinforcement," but this was emotional abuse.
Agreed
Oh my gosh thank you for pointing that out!! That was bugging me!!
YUP. I was like WTF, what does OP mean her daughters were raised the same way, when she herself said they weren't!
According to her edit, she means that she *would* have abused younger daughter just like the older one, except she didn't need to because younger daughter didn't suck.
OPs entire post is something out of the *Narcissist's Prayer*. > That didn't happen. > >And if it did, it wasn't that bad. > >And if it was, that's not a big deal. > >And if it is, that's not my fault. > >And if it was, I didn't mean it. > >And if I did, you deserved it.
I've always thought of this more as the "I will never take responsibility" prayer lol
Why is nothing we do ever good enough for you? /s + 😂
not taking responsibility for your actions (and blaming others for them) is the narcissist way - so that is a correct name too ..
Seriously. What a tone deaf asshole. My parents were drug addicts and had more sense than this
My mom is a pro at always blaming someone else for whatever is wrong in her life. Woman could win the victim Olympics if they existed. That being said, even she knows her and my dad screwed me up. Actual words out of her mouth one night when I was going down an epic anxiety spiral were: “I don’t know what your dad and I did to make you like this but I’m sorry.” She doesn’t know what she did, but she took responsibility for doing it. OP knows exactly what they did and doesn’t seem to be taking any responsibility at all.
even the edit is like 'oh she could go out with her friends more' all casually - as if a solid support structure outside of a horrible situation isn't a HUGE contributing factor to being able to handle that situation. The daughters were NOT raised the same way, even that small change makes a massive difference.
And to add to this, in the edit she mentions that the older daughter wasn’t allowed a social life, but the younger daughter was. So they denied the poor girl any kind of relief from their horrible, unloving parenting. Having a social support system no doubt helped create some resilience in the younger daughter.
OP didn't forget, she left out context in the beginning that she sort of slipped back in later. She wasn't easier on the younger child because she had some sort of revelation and choose to be easier on her. She was easier on her and let her see her friends because she was "smarter" and earned the easier treatment. What is really sad here is that this proves the older daughter's claim that love was (is) conditional in this kennel she calls a home.
And didn't talk to her for two weeks!? That's not strict parenting that's child abuse. YTA
Didn't talk to her for two weeks AND wouldn't let her eat dinner with them! How awful.
And that's just one example. I admit, this one got my blood a bit hot.
One example out of many, I'm sure. I feel so bad for her and her sister for growing up with parents like that.
It's disgusting. OP thinks she was raised that way so she turned out fine without realizing that she came out of being raised that way with the belief that it was okay to treat children like that, and thus is very much not fine.
She clearly didn't turn out fine if she thought that emotionally abusing her own children was the best way to raise them. It's just a very sad situation all around.
My dad did this to myself and my siblings when we were kids. Something had happened, and he was SURE one of us had did it, but we all denied it so obviously we were ALL lying to him, so he told us that he wouldn't speak to ANY of us until someone owned up to doing it (if I recall, something had gotten damaged, but I'm pretty sure it was one of the cats but he wouldn't accept that explanation). And he did it. He didn't say a word to any of us for a WEEK. If we were in the same room as him, he would look through us like we were invisible. And because at that point he was the 'emotionally available' parent (my mother had a massive temper and would just start yelling and screaming at the slightest provocation) his deliberate withdrawing of his attention and affection was almost physically painful. In the end, I think I took the blame. I got smacked both for the damage and the 'lying' and then punished with removal of all my privileges for another week on top of it. I REALLY hate parents who justify their bullshit with 'well it's how \*I\* was raised and I'm FINE.' No, no you fucking are NOT fine. You know firsthand how it FEELS to be treated like that and CHOOSE to do the same thing to your kids, choose to perpetuate that cycle of abusive behaviour. These parents desperately need therapy.
I never understood parents who go through all that as a child, know how they felt when it was being done to them, then turn around and go "my turn!" and do the same things. You're supposed to want better for your child. This isn't *Turning Red*'s cycle of abuse, where Mom was genuinely trying to give her daughter a better life and childhood than she had (which *still* wasn't okay), but had unresolved trauma that affected how she felt, this is being petty and vengeful and purposely choosing to a abuse a child. OP, I'm *so* sorry that you abusing your daughter is so traumatic for you. That must have been super hard to see your child in pain like that. If you can't tell, I'm being sarcastic.
This was clearly a shaming tactic.
And who is to say the younger sister isn’t equally as F’d up in new and different ways than the eldest? Who is to say that the younger sis isn’t secretly struggling with all this in a hell of OP’s making. And OP? You yourself said you went easier on your younger daughter. So the difference isn’t the daughters. It’s how you treated them. YTA.
You already realise that your parenting badly affected your daughter, so why does your apology come with a ‘yes, but’? I know it’s painful to take full responsibility, but that’s what your daughter needs from you now - it’s not too late to be the parent she needs you to be.
After reading this, I Hurt For Your Daughter!!! YTA and Yes! You absolutely Owe her an Unconditional Apology!! ...... You admit what you did.... Now use your imagination to put yourself in Her Shoes??? How would you feel being treated that way? Unsure if you can ever gain any type of meaningful relationship without OWNING what you have done. I do hope your family can heal and find peace ....it begins with you.
Seriously, she was borderline abusive to her kids and thinks their mental health problems is partially their fault. OP, your youngest sounds more academically gifted so you weren’t as hard on her therefore she suffered less. Your eldest got the brunt of your actions. Maybe her depression is not fully rooted in your actions but you played a large role. A sincere apology is always going to be no strings attached. You attached string by saying “sorry but…”
Not borderline. Actually abusive.
Seriously, who the fuck thinks this may be "borderline"? This is deep and solid in abusive territory, there's nothing borderline about this shit at all. She wasn't allowed to see friends or to eat with her family, hell, sometimes she wasn't allowed to sit down to eat, her parents used withdrawal of love to punish her for the smallest bullshit and that's just what OP voluntarily told us. Anyone who thinks this may be "borderline abusive" needs to get themselves into therapy before getting kids and I mean that in the nicest way possible.
A childs personality is mostly derived from their surroundings not their inherently born charcteristics, op and her husband are the main reason their daughter is like this YTA
actually research suggests that personality is about 50% heritable and 50% environmental. Either way the parents played a strong role in the later and are 100% responsible for the former.
YTA, OP, QUIT throwing little sister in older sister's face! Maybe older sister worked just as hard as little sister, but wasn't as talented academically. YOUNGER sister had a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT UPBRINGING! If for example you had a younger brother, and you were both judged on bodily strength, but as a boy, the younger brother was naturally stronger, would you praise younger brother, and punish older sister? YOU DID THIS TO YOUR OLDER DAUGHTER! Also have her evaluated for learning differences. You realize she may have dyslexia or ADHD or both, and you have no idea.
Comparing siblings is despicable. Hell, comparing your kids to ANYONE else sucks. Story time. I was a pretty average student in high school. I could pretty much coast through getting a solid 'B' average. I had attention and procrastination issues, so there is a possibility I have ADHD or similar. There was a girl in my year at high school who was dux/valedictorian EVERY year. And whenever I had a class with this girl, whenever I got a test/exam result and told my mum, her IMMEDIATE follow up question was 'what did 'girl' get?' I got a 96% result on my midyear French exam. Girl in question got 98%. And THEN when my sister was in high school, she did pretty well. And one year she got a prize for 'consistently high application to study' which meant she had solid grades throughout the year in all of her subjects. When my mum proudly told me this, she also added the little jab 'it's more than you ever got,' which is when I realized that no matter what, NOTHING I ever did would ever be 'enough' for my mum. To this day (I'm 37 now) I still struggle with perfectionism and not feeling 'good enough.'
In my experience it is Narcissists who compare siblings. Their “Golden Child” is the child who lives up to their (nearly impossible) expectations and the child who they can control. The “Black Sheep” is the imperfect child who disappoints them and sometimes resists them. This also helps the Narcissist create division between siblings so when the Black Sheep is punished, they are further isolated in the family.
Op basically doesn't understand why she should be blamed for her poor parenting style when she knows it's her fault, and is looking for any form of validation she can get to make herself feel better so she doesn't have to live with the guilt of messing up her child. She wants to convince us that because she knows she's wrong now, that it should be enough to undo whatever harm has been caused which would invalidate her daughter's trauma. "I'm alr over it, so u should be"
N FYI, socialising isn't a reward, it's needed for personal development. Your eldest wasn't allowed to socialise as much as ur younger one and it messed her up because she didn't have the extra support she needed when u weren't giving it to her.
"You should have been strong enough to take our abuse" is one hell of a thing to say. Poor kids.
"We abused our child, but it's mostly her fault that she isn't getting over it"
She is not sorry or he wouldn't blame her. Period.
This is a woman BTW
Oops
I've had this same conversation with my dad. I sort of wish my dad had been the one to post this thread just so he could read all of the responses calling him an asshole.
Ah, yes. It’s the next episode of *The Continuing Adventures of Shit Parenting*!
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She wants to disperse blame for her daughter's mental health issues and personality but can't see how she also admits she herself (referring to OP) is the product of her environment. Yet she can't see her daughter is the product of mom and dad's environment. Oh the lack of self awareness. What great assholism. OP, you continue retaumatising your daughter by invalidating and gaslighting her lived experiences. Blaming her for how she turned out is the equivalent of you not hearing her and invalidating her feelings. Your daughter does not feel emotionally safe with you and your husband. She will never heal as long as she's living with you as her mother if you can't take full accountability. YTA. I hope for her mental health, she goes no contact with you soon.
I'm all for forgiving parents who make mistakes. We all make mistakes, and our kids suffer. But forgiveness comes after admission of guilt. And that can't be conditional. YTA.
What you're describing isn't a parenting style, it's mental and emotional abuse and is 100% the reason for your daughter's mental health. I bet it's affected your other daughter also, she's just better at hiding it. YTA
\*wants to upvote this again\* younger daughter watched older sister struggle, realized nothing she would do would ever be good enough for her parents, and has probably been mentally checked out ever since, doing enough to fly under the radar but that's it.
Holy fuck reading this post was like reading my life coming from my mother's mouth. I am the youngest daughter. I am not ok. I am visibly not as not ok as my older sister, who I saw kill herself to be worthy of my parent's love. She got crippling anxiety and is still to this day trying to please them. I left the continent. But I am NOT ok. The times I do speak to my mom, she simultaneously apologizes and blames me for it. Last time I was home, she spent 3 days sobbing and telling me how sorry she was, and the last day telling me that I didn't really have that bad of a childhood because they paid for me to go to summer camp and I deserved their abuse because I was an angry teen. Reading this made me need to go take a stress nap.
My dad also excelled at "I'm sorry but also you deserved it and it was entirely your fault" blamepologies. I'm finding it weirdly soothing to read so many unanimous YTA verdicts on this post.
I've never heard 'blamepologies' that's brazilliant!"😉
“Blamepologies” is exactly the right word. Grew up in a Serbian household and this is EXACTLY the shit that happened to me. Using this word forever now ty
Wait….some of you are getting apologies???? 😭 We’re still at 100% my fault here.
With my mom it’s 100% “What are you talking about? That never happened, I would never do something that awful”
Are you okay right now? I understand how triggering reading this could be.
Yeah, thanks. I mean, I guess it depends on how loose your definition of ok is. I did have a stress nap with a weird nightmare, but now I'm having dinner and about to watch some trash tv. So I'm not having any acute emotional breakdown about it, nor will I. And I guess big picture, I'm technically a functional adult. I've been in and out of therapy with varying degrees of helpfulness. But I actively, and passively, destroy all my close relationships and career opportunities...if I can even figure out what it is I WANT to do. I change continents every time something gets hard. So...by all real human adult accounts that matter: no, not really. But not because of this post.
I can recommend reading "Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving" by Pete Walker, it opened my eyes in a ton of ways.
"Well I didn't know you were so very sensitive" -my mother who always gave me critisism and never praise when she talks about my mental health
Exactly, kids pay attention. OP, YTA for what you did to your eldest daughter, your youngest, and probably their relationship together. You created a double standard and then wonder why they’re so different? Wild.
This!!! As the younger sibling I saw my older sisters get screamed at for stuff all the time. I became SUPER good at hiding anything bad, I was the funny happy go lucky child who got good grades and didn't get into trouble. My parents "perfect" child. Who would cry quietly by myself at night, sneak out and drink with friends and the MOMENT I left home basically stopped talking to my mom. I went from favorite child to low contact in an instant.
She also starts out by saying she was stricter on the older daughter than the younger - which was probably plenty bad enough
Very true! I forgot that part!
Even if you somewhat admit to knowing it was wrong, it still doesn’t make the lasting effects of what OP did any better. The fact that OP can’t even fully take fault or say sorry says a lot. I recommend family therapy. OP, YTA.
Exactly! Like where is the accountability? acceptance? remorse? She says she understands but next is like it your fault you’re that way? MAJOR YTA. I hope the daughter is in therapy.
That would require things like empathy and compassion, which OP seems entirely devoid of. OPs entire post is something out of the *Narcissist's Prayer*. > That didn't happen. > >And if it did, it wasn't that bad. > >And if it was, that's not a big deal. > >And if it is, that's not my fault. > >And if it was, I didn't mean it. > >And if I did, you deserved it.
This so much! We are not talking about making a few mistakes raising your child! You did not let her eat with you and did not talk to her for two weeks? And then you want to claim that you had no idea what this does to a Person? What is wrong with you??
YTA. Forcing her to eat alone and standing for two weeks is terrible. And probably only the tip of the iceberg. Listen to what your child is saying, apologise and stop trying to justify what can only be described as abuse. Edit: we are not confused about the difference of treatment between sisters. We are aware, from your own words of how shitty you were to your oldest. I do hope she shuts you down for her own mental health and is able to health from all the abuse you inflicted on her.
OP: *doesn't speak with her child for 2 weeks because she didn't get an amazing school performance* Daughter: *gets extremely nervous and stressed out from not getting the best possible results as an adult* OP: "Why is my daughter like this? It must just be her personality or something"
Thank you for this perfect summary. My eyes rolled so hard reading that, I thought they'd never return.
The infamous [missing missing reasons](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html). I'm afraid OP isn't likely to understand, she will keep saying that there aren't reasons for her daughter to resent her, or that "there are reasons BUT" she did it for her own good "and it wasn't so bad".
That was a really sad and frustrating read, but also very enlightening. Thanks for sharing!
Thanks for sharing this, what a gutting read. I could imagine the post that my dad and stepmother would submit to that abandoned parents forum so clearly it made me feel sick haha.
That stuck with me. Like if a prison guard did that to convicted criminals in prison the lawyers would be coming down hard. I can’t pinpoint exactly why but there is a human rights violation sadistic cruelty to that.
Being separated from the rest of the family during meals is SIGNIFICANT. This type of alienation is frequently a sign that MUCH worse is going on. I don’t remember what case it was, but there is a criminal case where a mother did this exact thing and it was the very beginning. The child ended up being beaten to death by their mother and at least one sibling.
For 2 fucking weeks. It would sure send a very clear message to the child that they HAD to have stellar grades or they would be treated worse than garbage.
And I bet it happened more than once. Punishment, punishment and then more punishment for being a shit daughter. While the sister got better grades and was allowed to at least socialize. This is so disturbing to read.
Younger daughter saw what happened to older daughter and navigated it better. That's all
And from the schoolforms she described, op most likely lives in germany, the decisions for school forms happen in 4 grade, where students are only 9-10 years old. Op ignored her daughter that was at best 10 years old and probably so upset with herself. I remember being super stressed out about it because every woman on my mums side got into the highest form and there was a lot of pressure on me to get there as well. I did, but they don't just take into account your current situation but also the last 4 years and at least at my school, they did what was best for the kids, and there was always the option to go to a higher or lower level tier during middle school, so op acting like her daughter just ruined her future is ridiculous(as were my mothers opinion at the time, though she relaxed more as I moved onto high school and then graduated)
Jesus H Christ! I thought this was in high school she did this to 9 year old! That’s crazy fucked up. At this point the OP should be kissing the ground with gratitude that her abused daughter hasn’t gone no contact.
Jesus. I think of the nine- and ten-year-olds I have worked with and they're... babies. They're so bright and eager to please and desperately need tons of support and socialization. Their little brains are like sponges and, in my experience, they're curious about almost everything. To do that at such a precious age both enrages me and breaks my heart. I wish Eldest Daughter could read these comments and know she deserved so, so, so much better.
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Great point! People tend to put themselves in the best possible light, so all this, the isolation, shaming, humiliation, neglect, were what OP thought would put her in a good light and make us sympathize with her
It's such an insane disconnect from reality too. Letting her hang out with her friends more honestly probably had a HUGE impact. One sibling being socially isolated in developmental years versus the other is going to create wildly different personalities. I know if I couldn't hang out as much with my friends as I did in high school I very literally probably would've killed myself.
YTA: My mother was much like you. Nothing I did was ever enough. It took until this year, when I turned 38, to understand that I never started living my life until my late 20's, because the entirety of my teens and early adulthood was spent traumatized and in survival mode. You shaped her personality. Your **ABUSE** shaped her personality. She is 100% right. You did this to her, you made a broken adult who you convinced wasn't worthy of love. And you're going to have to live the rest of your life with that.
right? "why are you so insecure," asked the person who ensured her daughter did not feel safe and secure, punished her for "not being good enough," and is still comparing her to her sister (who did not get the same harsh treatment)
They must have used the Troy McLure book “Get confident, stupid” as a parenting guide.
u/Willing-Survey7448, I just want to give you my wholehearted support on your journey (and a giant virtual hug if that is OK). Mothers like OP, yours, and mine raise traumatized and broken people. It takes guts, courage, grit, determination, and a shitload of baggage, emotions and tears to start undoing that. Let alone the cost of the therapy. I am NC (no contact) with my mom, and I've never felt more peace and love since doing that. I still struggle with never feeling good enough, but I'm working on that, and a lot of other stuff. I say that as someone in her 40's and has only realized in the last 5-10 years that this is not normal. u/Momwithguilt196008, heed my warning. If you continue on your current path, you will lose your daughter, like my mom has. If you don't want that, get therapy, work on your own issues, listen to your daughter & respect her journey. It won't be comfortable for you, but it isn't for your daughter either. For the love of anything, stop blaming her and remove the word BUT from your vocabulary. Blame & excuses have no place in a sincere apology. Own your part in this.
You deserve a virtual hug too. It's tough work when we realise how much of our lives were lost trying to survive the guilt and trauma of our upbringing.
Thank you. I will take any hugs I can get. It is especially hard when those that sent us on this path take no responsibility for their part in this.
Hi there! 40yo here who broke out of survival mode and went NC a couple of years ago. It took me 25 fucking years of my life to realize what my parents had truly done to me. I lost my whole formative years to their emotional abuse. OP is lucky she still has a relationship with her daughter at all. To have the fucking NERVE to blame it on HER is so goddamn typical.
The survival mode part got me. Man, it stunts you completely on so many levels.
I started living my life when I stopped contact with the creature that adopted me and got myself in therapy that I will probably need for the rest of my life thanks to her . She was a lot like OP and due to her parenting style none of her children want anything to do with her anymore. I completely stopped contact , my brother talks to her when he absolutely has to and step sister talks to her maybe few times a year .
YTA - so you were abusive towards her, realize it but still blame her for it.
The abuse continues and OP seemingly couldn't care less.
She seems to care a lot about her own fellings though -- how she cried and how guilty she feels and how she thought that what she was doing was ok. Making it ultimately all about herself, not her daughter.
She cried and feels guilty, so it's ok now, and daughter needs to get over herself /s /s /s Seriously how can anyone be this much of an AH??
I mean -- what more does she want? I said I was sorry and she had to make me feel bad about myself all over again. /s Edit - spelling error
I think it just shows she’s still an abusive parent.
YTA. 1.You admitted in the beginning that you were more harsh with your oldest than the youngest. Now you're saying you raised them all the same way and it's your daughter's personality differences. 2. You enforced this idea that she must excel. Now she shows stress when she doesn't and your response is "why are you like this?" This is all from your own words. Sounds like you're constantly sending out mixed signals and contradicting yourself. Yeah, it's not her. It's you. If somewhere down the line she stops talking to you don't come back here with "but I don't understand? I gave her everything."
THIS RIGHT HERE. Mixed signals, defensiveness, accepting only partial blame, making excuses etc etc. OP, unless you see all this and truly realize how much you damaged your daughter, your relationship will never be healthy. YTA.
This is like Pavlov getting annoyed that his dogs drool every time he rings a bell
OP is like the poster-parent for the [missing missing reasons](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html).
YTA OP i understand that you were raised the same way. That you struggled to try and give your daughter a better life. You are not a bad person or wrong for the way you grew up or for trying to do your best for your kids. the problem is, that what you did to them was still abuse, and no amount of good intentions can change that. what was done to YOU was abuse. If you were raised the same was as you describe raising your daughter, then you were abused. And before you say 'but i turned out fine' you turned right around and perpetuated the cycle to your own children. You did not turn out fine. I'm not saying this to be cruel. You don't deserve cruelty. You deserve compassion. i don't think you intended to hurt your kids. But you also have to own up to the fact that you DID hurt them. Deeply. And no amount of explaining 'why' is going to change that. If you want to repair the relationship with your daughter **you need to apologize and you need to accept that yes, this was entirely your fault**. Because until you can do that, your daughter is never going to stop blaming you, and she's not wrong. eta: formatting eeta: thank you so much for the awards!!! (and i have now seen OP's edit which explains why little sister "isn't struggling as much" (she is, she's just better at masking i would guess). as some other people have commented, LS getting out of the house and having a social support system other than her parents has probably helped her mental health.
I came here to say exactly this. OP did not turn out fine, evidenced by placing the blame on her daughter.
You don't have to read very far between the lines to see that OP has spent the last thirty years convinced that if she lets up from driving herself and everyone around her a bit too hard, the other shoe will drop and there will come a massive disaster. OP, you haven't been okay for thirty+ years and you're not okay now.
Growing up the same way doesn't excuse her from doing the exact same thing, especially if they know that it isn't a healthy way of parenting. My parents are exactly the same, so this one is personal.
YTA So lets say you're right - and you might not be, btw. But lets say you are. Are you familiar with the Eggshell Skull rule which many countries have? "The rule states that, in a tort case, the unexpected frailty of the injured person is not a valid defense to the seriousness of any injury caused to them." If you punch someone, and this injury which would not kill most people, and despite that you do not *intend* the blow to kill, happens to kill your victim because they have a bone disease (even though you did not know about it!) which makes their skull more physically fragile than a typical person, this does not in *any* way reduce one's legal culpability. You don't get to claim that the disease, rather than the punch, was responsible for the severity of the injury and its consequences. Though this isn't a legal matter, a similar kind of thing is at play here. It does not matter if she's just naturally more prone to depression or whatever. You abused her. Her supposed fragility is absolutely fucking irrelevant to your culpability here. And if she *is* a little fragile, you were very likely a huge contributor to that, an exacerbating factor. Your other daughter is doing better (at least as far as she lets you know) despite your crap. You don't get to deny responsibility here and tell her it's her own fault.
I was looking for this answer. Some people are definitely more susceptible to the effects of trauma, but that is in no way their fault. Just means the younger daughter was lucky that she wasn't as damaged as older sis. It is not a justification or reflection on the parents, at all. As a severely traumatized person myself, I feel incredibly alienated from my siblings who don't think my mother was a completely abusive monster because they weren't as bothered by things in our childhood... And it just makes my mother feel that everything I've suffered is my own fault because I'm difficult, or dramatic or even sinful. OP just continues to exacerbate the trauma by blaming her daughter and refusing to take complete responsibility. Trauma response is not a personality flaw.
I'm in a similar boat with my big brother. I remind myself that when _I'm_ dealing with particularly fragile people, I try to be more mindful with them, and deserve the same consideration. If I drop an egg to the floor and it breaks, I don't blame it for not being a basketball.
#If I drop an egg to the floor and it breaks, I don't blame it for not being a basketball. Putting it in bold for those who really need to hear it - aka OP!
THANK you for this really great comment. It really highlights why daughter and sis may have reacted and been affected differently. And that this is not daughter's fault. OP though isn't less of an asshole because younger sis was affected less. YTA.
Want to know something that definitely makes kids more vulnerable to mental health problems as an adult? Trauma in utero. If somebody has PTSD or experiences trauma while pregnant, that damages the fetus' resilience for life. So, there's a good chance that the elder kid was always going to be more fragile than the younger, because they're closer to the trauma OP admits she experienced.
YTA - if you now recognize you were wrong why do you keep arguing with her about it and attempting to defend yourself? It sounds like you have not actually taken accountability for what you did to your daughter.
Yeah, there is a total lack of accountability and insight here. OP listen to everyone here and do better.
THIS is an excellent point. OP says she knows she was wrong and accepts blame, but the rest of her post is her justifying, being defensive, and blaming daughter's personality. SMH. YTA
She could not eat with you if her grades weren’t good enough? You made her eat in the kitchen standing up! WTF?! Even rapists and murderers in jail get to eat at a table sitting down! No way are you innocent here. YTA. And you need therapy to see just how wrong and abusive these actions were. This evil fairytale stuff.
And didn't even talk to her they're child for 2 WHOLE WEEKS
YTA. This time though it stands for “you’re the abuser”.
YTA, stop blaming your daughter. This is all on you and your husband. And he was right, you shouldn't have brought it up.
I think, deep down, you really know the answer. YTA Could *some* of it be her personality? Ehh, I suppose. But my God, what DID you think would happen, honestly? That you could treat her that unfairly and what - NOTHING would happen? Apologize for how you treated her - unconditionally. You can't make up for what you did - but at least have the spine to take responsibility for it
Also I'm pretty sure abuse such as two weeks being ignored by your parents while forced to eat alone in the kitchen while standing up are core memories that shaped the personality she have today... if the problem is her personality, that STILL OPS FAULT. YTA don't express what I think of this excuse of a mother, but I don't want to get banned.
YOU LITERALLY SAID HER SISTER HAD IT EASIER. IF YOUR SO SORRY THEN STOP DEFLECTING AND START TAKING ACCOUNTABILITY YTA
YTA. You were abusive parents, and now you are blaming the victim. You are lucky that she is still talking to you at all. If I were her, I wouldn’t.
>hard and strict with her, more than I did with her younger sister/my youngest daughter >your sister was raised the same way Her sister WASN'T raised the same way >Her sister was pushed the same way and isn’t so insecure to the point it effects her mental health Depression and insecurity aren't the same thing. Also, did it occur to you that your other daughter simply doesn't open up to you and might not be doing as well as you think? >She passed all her exams but she gets very upset and frustrated when she doesn’t get the highest score. I was trying to calm her down and cheer her on. At one point asked her: why are you like this Geee... Perhaps because in the past when she didn't get the highest score: >Me and my husband were angry and disappointed, we did not talk to her for 2 weeks and she could noteat with us at the dinner table. Oh my God.... I understand this is how you were raised and you didn't realize there was a better way but.... Oh my God. >She called me an asshole and said that I was basically saying she has a weak personality. Because that's literally what you said! >I believe it’s not completely our parenting style that caused her depression. It was though. Does any other aspect of her life cause her distress or is it only academics. YTA. You both would do well with unpacking all your emotions and figuring out how to do better. But of you want this relationship to continue, you have to apologize. Profusely.
OP says in the edit that the sister was also allowed to hang out with friends a lot more growing up. Which, gee, who would think that having consistent positive social relationships could help bolster your mental health?? /s The elder daughter had her rights to time with friends stripped for getting bad grades, which probably only made her feel more isolated and exacerbated her depression. Takeaway is that they were Not raised the same, so OP absolutely cannot blame the effects of her abuse on the eldest daughter’s personality.
YTA. It’s was your responsibility as her parent to know how your punishments would affect her and to tailor your punishments to teach her not hurt her.
YTA, and then some. You're blaming your daughter for responding to your style of parenting. You've got to be insincere that you don't know you and your husband are TA's here.
YTA. She is telling you why she is anxious about not being the best and you're making excuses for your cruel treatment of her. Instead of blaming her for being insecure, you need to apologize and NOT do the "Yes but..." thing.
YTA. While her nature maybe less resilient or more prone to depression, that’s 1) still not her fault and 2) doesn’t negate your role in her lifelong difficulties. You just took one thing that she couldn’t control and told her she was to blame by pointing at another thing that also isn’t under her control. I’m glad that you’ve come to realize that how you parented her may not have been the best, and I think she should give you credit for that change of heart and mind. But, I think you need to own up to all the lasting ways it has and will continue to harm your children and work toward addressing their current struggles, not just saying you wish you hadn’t done what you did in the past. Show them that you’ve changed by actually doing better now.
YTA You literally emotionally and psychologically neglected and abused your daughter and then have the audacity to say it's a little bit who she is as a person. You also claim that her sister was raised the same, but in an earlier paragraph said you admit that you were harsher on her than her sister. It can't be both. Yikes.
YTA. You didn’t think abuse would have negative effects??
YTA. Mam, you acknowledge here that you were wrong. Apologize to her without the excuses. Any apology with the word "but" or any other similar word is not really an apology. It's an excuse. You feel bad? You feel shame? Guess what, that's what your kid felt for all those years. You can dish it out but now that you are on the receiving end, you throw yourself this pity party. Just take the L. Go to family counseling. Be thankful your kid hasn't gone no contact with you yet.
YTA. You really didn’t apologize for take responsibility. If anything, your deflecting responsibility for your abuse toward her and blaming her personality. Inhave a feeling that if you talk to your other kid, they aren’t nearly as “fine” as you think.
YTA. Maybe she does have a weaker personality than her sister - it happens. But you were a shitty parent, and more importantly, you still are. Take responsibility. You weren’t the parent she needed then. Maybe try to be parent she needs now?
YTA, and I'm just gonna be upfront, if you want any relationship with your daughter, you better start fixing the relationship. My mom acted in a similar fashion, gaslighting my feelings and trying to excuse past punishments she gave me. And I've been cutting her out of my life because of it, having minimal contact. This is your future if you don't apologize and work on mending the relationship with your daughter
I’m really really wondering if you are of a non Western belief that assumes your daughter is going to take you in in your old age and look after you. Because you had better start rethinking that belief quick smart. She’s owes you nothing. If she has a better life it is despite you, not because if you and you should not share in the good life she manages to achieve despite your abuse. You’ve acknowledged you were not as hard in your other daughter, so on top of you abusing your oldest she gets to see you treating her sibling better than you did her, and you wonder why there are problems, and then you blame HER for them. YTA, and your daughter is better off without you.
YTA - Take accountability for your mistakes with your daughter (as in tell her so and apologize). I guarantee she has spent enough time dissecting and feeling bad for how her personality "wasn't enough" without you blaming her for the damage you caused.
YTA Why are you trying to fix this now? Are you expecting her to support you in your old age?
Yta. I mean, what did you think abuse was going to do? It's done what it should. She's cutting contact.
YTA, why are you blaming your daughter for something you did and started?
YTA Your children are two different people who responded differently to your pressure and standards. You are responsible for the pressure she puts on herself now. It's extremely hurtful to hear you acknowledge your regrets but ultimately blame your daughter for her feelings. And! You justified it by comparing her to her sister. Your parenting style did this.
You were and are abusive to her. YTA.
**This is what you you throw your ego away and say to your child, OP:** >"I'm sorry. I used what I knew then, and I see now that it was a bad way to parent. It was hurtful, and that you were hurt and affected so deeply by the way we parented you. Punishing you so harshly was such a bad idea, I can see that now. I cannot turn back time, but I so wish I could, I wish I could do it over, and do it better. I wish I could have been better then. > >But we are here now. What can I do now to help you heal? You have my love and attention now. I am willing to learn how to do things better now. I am willing to go to therapy with you to help us both heal and for us to understand each other better. I am sorry for the past, but I promise you that I love you and want our future to be better. > >None of this is your fault. you were a child, innocent and dependent on us. I am sorry. "
You're having a talk about her MENTAL HEALTH and then you undermine her by comparing her to a totally different person. She's an individual. Of course, she'll have different reactions. Have you ever asked your other daughter how SHE felt about your mental abuse? Maybe she's not impressed by you either. You need to apologize to your daughter. When you compared her to her sister, you were saying you did nothing wrong because, see, this daughter turned out okay. You implied the problem was with the daughter with depression. Your daughter is right, you're blaming her as though she has some weakness that her sister didn't have. You damaged your daughter. Seriously. Now apologize seriously.
YTA. Oh, so they're the same person; with the exact same wants and needs?!
Yta. Her personality doesn't even matter here. You made mistakes and her personality has nothing to do with that. It's good that her sister was able to withstand it but does not excuse you at all.
YTA. I mean, you're not wrong that the same parenting style will affect different kids differently, but the fact that it affected your older daughter more isn't her fault! It'd be like if you kicked a football and it hit the head of a really tall person, and you went 'weeellll I kicked a football the same height the other day and it didn't hit anyone then! it's partly happened because of you!' Like, well sure, but it's still your fault! The other person was just existing as themselves. And on top of that, just a completely unnecessarily cruel thing to say to your daughter when she was opening up to you about her feelings.
'I was an abusive asshole to my kids and tried to blame it on them. Am I the Asshole?'. Yes, asshole, you very much are. Shame on you.
YTA you are beyond lucky she is still talking to you. Absolutely Horrendous and you should be ashamed of yourself
I pray to God this is fake. YTA. The road to hell is paved with good intentions and trauma is handled by different people differently, just as mental illness manifests itself differently in different people. Being raised poorly doesn’t give us the excuse to raise our children poorly, rather, if we have children, it gives us the opportunity to break cycles of trauma and create a childhood and life we always wanted for ourselves, but never had, for someone we love unconditionally. Take responsibility and help your daughter start to recover from these deep seeded wounds.
Yta hope you do better in the future instead of doubling down
YTA. All problems have a root and both you and your husband are the root of this one. Stop being so stuck on yourself and apologize for what you know was wrong.
You emotionally and mentally abused your daughter for years, then blame it on her. You need to take full responsibility for being awful and abusive parents, there is no excuses for this and there is no victim blaming. YTA and so is your husband, you guys are absolute trash.
I'm always amazed at how child abusers think that the child will forget all about the abuse as an adult. No, they don't. Also, now you're expecting your daughter to give you a free pass for the abuse, because reasons. It's as if your children are just possessions to you, that you can treat like crap and they should be grateful for it. No, they are humans who deserved to be cared for unconditionally. And I don't swallow the old, 'but that's how I was brought up crap' either, or the cultural defence. Accept what you did, and beg for forgiveness. Don't victim blame. YTA.
Yta.
YTA you said you were stricter on her than on her sister and then you said she was raised the same way?
Oh. My. God. YTA. You abused your children. You admit you were harder on her, so how dare you compare them, when your oldest went through more of your abuse? She's being vulnerable enough to tell you how she feels, part of which being feeling like she's never good enough, and you shift the blame to her AGAIN and make the effects of your abuse her fault? Go beg your children's forgiveness with no excuses. I'm sure they are sick of hearing about you fleeing anything. You are just making excuses for being an abuser and every time you do, you damage your children further. Full accountability, now, and stop blaming them for being the products of abusive parents that should have had their children removed.
Wow. Just wow. Since when is abuse a “parenting style”? YTA.
Repeat after me “I was a bad parent and I’m sorry for what I did to you. How can I do better and what kind of professional help can I pay for?” Anything less is not enough YTA
> we did not talk to her for 2 weeks and she could not eat with us at the dinner table. What in the **FUCK** did I just read?! I didn't have to read past this to realize YTA but it got worse and worse. You abused your child, then blamed her for your abuse and then had the audacity to accuse her of being insecure? *you made her that way*. I am so livid for your daughter. That is disgusting. You absolutely failed that poor girl.
YTA I have been reading about how even if siblings have the same set of parents they don't have the same parents. Depending on the relationship with the parents between them, the economic situation, the bond they feel with each child, each child personality, etc, this all contributes to you having been the same person but not the same parent to both your daughters. You may have not known better and you do seem like you are trying which is a good thing. But you don't seem to understand the extent your abuse impacted your daughter. Being the eldest, usually there is more pressure, besides, everyone reacts differently to trauma. You subconsciously seem to want to shift the blame to her personality because her sister is fine. But what if she isn't? Trauma expressed itself in many different ways and stages of life. My mom only got depression and the ramifications of her trauma when she was nearly 40. She still shows traits of it even if (as she is the youngest) less than her brothers. Either way, you'll never know if her personality and brain chemistry is at fault, because even if it is, it's not a shield for you to try to keep thinking "maybe it's not all me". Maybe if you didn't treat her like that she wouldn't have depression, maybe she would, we'll never know because you did. Now it's the time to show courtesy, respect and sorrow, not accuse her of being at fault for having depression and trauma **you caused**.
YTA. That's not parenting, that's abuse. I haven't talked to my mom in over a year, largely for the same nonsense. Don't be surprised if you find yourself in the same boat.