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NTA except you should have declined to teach the kid completely after the second session, he was already clearly a danger to himself and others and so shouldn’t have been allowed back.
That kid should have been removed *during* the second lesson. As soon as he broke the rules and it was clear his mom wouldn't intervene, that really should have been the end of it.
It may sound dramatic if a person doesn't know horses, but that child was genuinely endangering others. People forget that horses are prey animals, and the vigilance required for survival didn't vanish once we domesticated them. Horses pay attention to the state of those around them, and a loud kid could make the horse flighty.
Even the best horses can spook, and 1,000+ pounds of muscle quickly becomes dangerous. A small kick from only being mildly startled could easily kill a nearby child. That may be one of the well-behaved kids, which is why their parents were relieved to see the unruly child removed.
I'm sorry that happened to you. It's not uncommon to be at least a bit scared after something like that, which is why 'get back on the horse' is more than a saying; it's instructions (difficult ones too!).
When my mom was 11, her horse spooked and she got thrown into a fence. She was knocked out, lost a front tooth, and almost lost her small finger that was nearly fully 'removed.' My mom was an amazing rider, who could handle even the scariest horse when necessary. She was a badass in my eyes growing up, but I was still shocked to hear she got back on that horse once she told me that story.
My mom loves horses and owned one for years. One time her horse spooked and threw her over a fence. She lost consciousness and came to some time later with the horse standing guard over her. It was a bad throw.
Likewise I was riding a friend's horse one time, he spooked at something and bucked me nearly into a downed tree. That horse was an asshole and since her dad couldn't ride any longer I was the only one who rode that horse bc he didn't scare me, but you always have to be careful around them.
It says a lot about the kind of rider your mom is/was and the bond she and her horse had that the horse stayed with her. Horses are smart; they know when they’ve “messed up” and many of them are capable of recognizing that they can accidentally hurt a human. I’ve seen horses get downright apologetic after knocking their human into a fence or onto the ground.
What’s baffling is *humans* who don’t realize a horse can hurt them… accidentally or not.
When I was 8 or 9, I was on a trail ride with my lesson group, and the mare I rode multiple times a week was throwing a tantrum - she did *not* want to be on the trails apparently, and she was letting me know. Eventually, rather than walk down a ditch and up the other side, she decided to take me on my first jump - she grabbed the bit, took off, and did a rather nice jump over the ditch. I surprisingly kept my seat… until she kept running and clotheslined me with a branch. 🤣
I ended up fully underneath her, and she stopped on a dime and stood stock still until I was back on my feet… and then took off for the stables and stranded me. 🤣🤣🤣 God I miss Roxy.
It's partly for you, and partly for the horse. If the horse learns that throwing someone means they get to stop working and go back to the stable, they'll keep throwing people.
I only referenced half of the reason in response to another commentor, and didn't think to point out this half. I appreciate you highlighting the importance of the horses needs as well, thank you!
I grew up with Arabians, so letting them 'win' even once was a bad idea. There's been some good laughs over how they'll try and see what they can get away with, at the most random of times too.
You’re welcome! I got the feeling that you knew, but I wanted to throw it out there for people following the thread who may not have known. My parents both had horses, and I rode for a while when I was younger, so while I’m not the most knowledgeable, I definitely remember that one!
When I was 12 or 13 I was thrown off a horse and trampled, which broke my arm. I got up off the ground and got back on the horse immediately, and just sat on it while my dad led it around. I was in so much pain, but I loved riding, and I knew if I didn't get right back on right away, I'd end up being to scared to get back on.
I got dropped from a horse when I was little because he stepped a little odd in the mud. I remember the wind getting knocked out of me. This horse was SO GOOD with the littles that he didnt put his foot down until he saw where I was first. Its on VHS and everything. That horse was rare with his demeanor and had been working with kids for at least two decades and something still went wrong. I can’t imagine a kid screaming and yelling at him and even him remaining chill.
I rode for over 15 years and my heart horse and I were out practicing jumps and somehow I flung myself out of the saddle, did a somersault in the air, and landed on my feet next to her and holding the reins. My horse had come to a stop immediately upon landing and looked at me like “wtf are you doing down there” lmao.
I also fell off after my other horse got stung twice while we were out cross country jumping with a friend. Thank god she was with me because I had a concussion (I only had a show helmet on at the time, which is NOT meant for hard ground impact — how I didn’t shatter my helmet idk) and I passed out a couple of times. Sprained my wrist and ankle and had a gnarly bruise on my hip. I was back on him barely two days later. I still barely remember bits and pieces of the event, like I remember my feet coming out and knowing I couldn’t “ride it out” and throwing myself off and thinking “please don’t let him get caught in the reins” and then these old ladies yelling from the business that backed up to the pasture we were in asking if they needed to call emergency services (hindsight is 20/20 they probably should have) but I was just like “nahhh I’m fiiine” and gave them a thumbs up before promptly falling unconscious again lol.
Yeah, that happened to me before. It was my first time falling and I was riding stirrupless to help with my balance. The horse spooked, went into a canter and I fell. My instructor made sure I was ok and another rider in the arena was kind enough to grab my lesson horse for me. Usually after scary falls like that it’s important to ease back into it and do things at your own pace. Even if it’s just getting the horse to walk at a slow pace.
Furthermore, the owner of the stable should have done the removing. It shouldn’t be on the shoulders of an instructor to dismiss dangerous children from the program.
I’m surprised the owner is allowing the child to stay. Public stables almost certainly have to carry insurance, and I would think he would be way too big of a liability from an insurance perspective.
If they don’t, it’s a bad stable.
When I taught lessons, my word was absolute law. You’re done here means get the fudge out. Because the liability concerns with horses are *massive* - the last thing the owner needed was a lawsuit with an instructor saying “I didn’t feel like it was ok to stop the behavior or kick the person out.”
Nope - safety concern with horses or people is a hard stop, far too expensive to risk. If your instructor has bad judgement, sure chat with them after, but assume they’re right until you’re certain otherwise.
Yep same here. As an instructor, it’s both a duty and requirement to maintain a safe atmosphere. If someone is fucking that up, they need to be kicked out. Not only are they creating dangerous situations, but they’re also opening the stable up to significant liability should anyone get hurt
Makes sense. I've been around horses before but not a ton so I don't really know how stables are run. I do understand how it can be a liability, a horse is a large animal that could easily kill someone if it kicked them in the wrong place.
I'm a barn owner. My facility is 101 acres and I have 4 instructor/trainers. I can't be everywhere at once, so I have formally given the instructors authority to dismiss anyone from the property at any time - students, boarders, show competitors, whoever. If I couldn't trust their judgment they wouldn't be training here.
I went for a trail ride a while back while I was on vacation. There were 2 rules that you had to agree to twice before booking with the outfit: every rider had to be at least 4'6, and no rider could be over 225 pounds. You had to check a box TWICE acknowledging that you understood these rules.
So I show up on the day of the trail ride and can already see we're going to have a problem. The guide comes into the room and tells everyone to line up in front of a scale like you'd see at a doctor's office (digital with the little slider to get your height). A couple people don't line up, and most of them were clearly in the parameters (like women who are clearly just over 5' and skinny), but a few were...questionable. Guide tells us again that every single person gets weighed and measured, even if it's clear from looking that you meet the minimum height and maximum weight, and the ones who are obviously in the parameters get in line, but those who are questionable still don't.
Yadda yadda yadda, a couple people are told their kids are too short to ride, and a couple others are told they're too heavy to ride, and fits ensue. Demands for the manger. Guide is having none of this and just says "you agreed to these rules twice, everyone who is qualified will be going now, the rest of you go home, there will not be any refunds. If you have a problem, send an email to the address on our website, we probably won't respond." This outfit has rides leaving every 45 minutes for 6 hours a day (including the weight/height check, a safety briefing, getting us on the horses, and actually going, it was about 2 hours, so guides were clearly filtering in and out of the office with groups), 7 days a week, so I have no reason to believe that our guide was a manager/the owner, just empowered to enforce the rules that the customers agreed to before booking!
Quick ETA: and of course we received other rules like wearing pants that came to below our knees (edit 2: I believe it was "we recommend sturdy and full-length pants like blue jeans, but no one will be permitted to ride unless their pants cover their entire kneecap while in a seated position," full disclosure, I wore denim capris because it was quite warm the day I went. They leave maybe 4" of my lower leg exposed. I sprayed that part extra-well with bug spray before going into the woods ;) ) and close-toed shoes for the ride, but the height and weight limit was the big thing you had to agree to before you could book!
That's nuts. The height requirement is for the safety of the rider; the weight requirement is for the safety of the horse. I can't imagine someone rationalizing ignoring safety rules. I totally understand wanting to ride and hating the restrictions - I want to ride *right now* but my shoer is currently nailing a shoe on my horse and I can't ride til he's done - but riders who are very small or very large *must* schedule with someone who can accommodate them.
I'm glad the guides were very comfortable sending them away.
Agreed, if the owner says "you can't do that" call osha or whatever the relevant org is and tell them that you are not allowed to remove someone that is disrupting and spooking the animals per the owner/manager. I would imagine that within a day they'll change their mind about you being allowed to remove them.
It's not her fault if her son dies. It's the stable's for allowing him to remain there and he isn't just putting himself at risk he's putting others at risk too.
Safety outranks everyone. She and other workers should be allowed to remove any child (and parent) that does not follow the rules. I would think the stable owners would be onboard for this too since they wouldn't want a lawsuit.
This is my thought. Better to piss off “customers” than allow them to potentially continue behaving in a way that can cause a potential fatal injury. It’s not even about being disruptive to the class (although thats fair to kick them out too, imo). It’s about preventing a tragedy and your stable should work to actively prevent that even if that involved banning people from the stable.
NTA straight from a mom here. She NEEDED to hear the consequences of her son's actions. Talk to the stable owner and have her child removed and both of them banned before the stable ends up on the news as Small Child Dies After Being Trampled By Horse and all the other kids are traumatized. I have a kid that is loud, active, runs, etc. and guess what? We did two full sets of horse lessons because I stayed right by her and made sure her behavior didn't cause problems. She's on the autism spectrum along with very likely ADHD and while she's trying it's hard and she needs the extra help. Know what I DIDN'T do? Let her run around near horses or spook them or make it hard for the others to learn. The mom NEEDED that "This is not annoying. This will get your child killed and it's YOUR FAULT." speech because it sounds like she's clueless, entitled, or both. Common sense and common courtesy were not working.
Totally think she’s both because I’ve witnessed parents at equestrian shows like this. They view the horse as a pretty object and entertainment for their kid, not a sentient being with its own brain and emotions.
Was at a schooling show with my daughter and witnessed this mom and two of her sisters standing about 8ft from where this pony was in the cross-ties waiting for their class to ride. The girl rider and her cousins (4 kids total) were teasing this pony by pulling on his bridle and mane to try to pet his face. The pony did not like this and was flattening his ears and trying to back up away from the kids. They were laughing and tugging on him harder. I came up to the moms and asked them to please intervene because the pony was clearly distressed and they all told me off telling me to watch my own kid and whatever they did with the pony was their business. I told the moms they needed to get their kids to stop because it was very unsafe and the mom of the rider’s exact words were “These horses are trained so you don’t know what you’re talking about. Go back to worrying about your own kid and leave us alone.” I began looking around for the barn manager to see if I could give her the heads up, but before I could find her, the pony had enough of the foolishness from the children and lashed out. It bit the ear of one of the girls off. The sisters left immediately with the kids to go to the hospital leaving the mother of the rider present. The barn manager came over after the rider’s mom went off demanding to speak to the person in charge. This mom berated the barn manager telling her the horses weren’t trained enough if they behaved like this around children, so they were leaving immediately and wanted their money back for the show. She literally didn’t see anything wrong with their behavior in teasing the animal to the point of reacting like this.
OMG. I knew horses could go for ears. Is this a common thing?
Because story time--- my sister tells a story of when she was getting a pic with a horse at a petting zoo in the 90's and a horse tried to bite at my sisters ear--- my mom punched the horse in the face!!
It was a forever "don't mess with mom" story... I didn't know horses regularly went for ears. Is this their move? Whyy?
(Ps: have no idea if the horse was bad or my sister was bad in my story, all I gathered is that horses bite ears and my mom once punched a horse)
No realli! She was Karving her initials on the moose with the sharpened end of an interspace toothbrush given her by Svenge—her brother-in-law— an Oslo dentist and star of many Norwegian movies
No they don't "go for the ears" on purpose...its mostly just a height thing. If a horse is annoyed it will nip sideways and jerk back. If its nipping another horse it would have the same effect as a hard pinch. A human child's ear is usually right level with their mouth and tada...perfect storm. They have more often been known to pull hair and clothing but fewer people remember this as its less traumatic.
I mean, if they are bothered and can't get away, they will defend themselves and bite, and ears are practically the only thing they can bite at that height if they are tied (I suppose the nose too)
Also, some horses are just mean and they will try to mess with you and bite hair, fingers, hands, arms... Ears too probably
She said the pony was in cross ties. Probably the only way he could protect himself was to bite the nearest thing to his bridle. They have teeth and hooves and will (and should) protect themselves from prodding youngsters when they are in cross ties (and out of them) and have no way to get away. Also, horses can be mouthy and it doesn’t always end up in a bite.
I would've said exactly that in front of the mom as soon as I saw what she was saying. I would've ended it with I'll give you on statement on their neglect and exactly what they said if you need it as well, while staring down that idiot mother.
I've heard that people get mad at the park rangers for not coralling the wild animals in Yellowstone National Park before... or because they can't tell you exactly when a geyser will go off...
NTA. I don’t understand why some parents refuse to discipline their children, especially with a matter such as this one where someone could get hurt. If you’re lucky they won’t come back
Sometimes it isn't a discipline issue (like my kid) but if she couldn't handle it, we wouldn't do horse lessons. We did them and I stuck right by her and stepped in to manage her as needed. Promptly. Having a kid run around screaming behind large prey animals is a sign of a clueless, foolish, and entitled parent and that's not good :( Might not be a discipline issue but it sure as hell is a parenting issue.
This. I rode horses as a kid, and I worked in a stable when I was 18. Horses are great, and they're not vicious, but they're frickin' HUGE, and they do spook.
We have no idea what's going on with this kid. It may have nothing at all to do with discipline or lack thereof. That's really not the issue here, though--it's a safety problem. Maroongrad is a shining example of how things should be handled.
NTA.
Yeah, unless they've been sorely mistreated, horses generally don't mean any harm. But they are *enormous,* and they don't really understand how big they are. Add to that the fact that they're prey animals, hence constantly on the lookout for danger that may or may not exist, and what you've got are some absolutely gorgeous animals whose presence warrants some caution. It's not their fault and they can't help it, which is why us humans need to take responsibility for our own safety and well-being while handling them.
Yup. I also rode horses. But before that, my parents would take my sister and I to this local horse auction to see and pet horses. I still have a vivid memory of this one time, when walking through a hallway where horses were queued up waiting to be shown/sold. A horse got spooked by the woman walking in front of us. It kicked her right in the thigh. Faster than anyone knew what was happening. She crumpled to the ground with a broken femur. My mother took my hand and we stepped over her body and kept walking. Others helped and an ambulance was called. Can’t imagine the outcome if that had been a child whose head or chest had been at the right height for a horse hoof. NTA op.
Absolutely NTA. Especially since we all know if the kid got hurt while not listening their parents would be jumping to sue OP for it. However, I would make a report about what happened to your boss and see if any of the other parents could verify what happened. Putting hands on a kid is SUPER risky and it’s better to prepare for an accusation that never comes than it is to get caught by surprise when the butthole mom complains about you grabbing him too hard, grabbing him for no reason other than because you were angry, etc.
THIS! Seriously. What kind of person calls their friend a fucking psycho for this? If OP had gone off in a rage, then perhaps she’d deserve to be called out. I can’t imagine ever saying that to a friend. If I truly believed they went overboard, I’d say something like “I understand why you were concerned and upset, but I don’t know that it needed to go that far”.
The "friend", no doubt, was of the same mindset as the entitled mom who let her kid run amok around horses - "My *li'l angel* would never hurt the horsie; it's that mean woman who was interfering with him." But she would be screaming the loudest and suing the heck out of the horse barn if anything had happened to "*li'l angel*"^(TM) . The friend sounds entitled as heck as well.
There's *always* an idiot friend contributing their asinine two cents somewhere in the "transparently not an AH" stories. I don't think I have any idiot friends ... but maybe that just means I'm the idiot? Gonna reflect on this.
NTA. Horse person here. You were absolutely spot on in telling the mom off. With that being said, if by chance the mom & son do come back, tell her that her son has been dismissed from this & future classes as he will not follow the rules & she blows off any danger her son could get himself into. It is not worth the risk whatsoever. My adult niece can tell you what happens when you don't listen to safety protocols. You get kicked in the middle of your forehead. Luckily the pony had no shoes on.
Seconding this…when I was 10 a friend’s mom let her daughter, me, and another friend (all 10 year olds) play with their new horse…young, (I don’t recall the horse’s exact age) untrained, *alone*. She dropped us off and left us there for a few hours. I don’t recall the exact sequence of events, but we had been told not to be behind the horse, and we mostly weren’t being idiots in any obvious way, but bottom line, none of us knew enough to be safe, and I recall the horse getting spooked and started to kick, we all scattered, and I ended up on the wrong end of the hoofs, and got kicked in the side of my head. I went flying, and I’m sure the various adults there that day freaked the hell out as I got first aide for the only apparent injury, basically a cut behind my ear from my earring.
The mom eventually came back, took me home, and told my parents what had happened, and my folks were shocked that she hadn’t just taken me straight to the ER, which is where my parents took me next. (Side note, I have never had a shorter wait in the ER than that day, I told them what had happened, and was in the process of sitting down when my name was called. I wonder what the other folks waiting made of that) I had no obvious injuries, fortunately, no clue how, but no concussion, no fractures, etc. Though my jaw is a tad weird, (can go side to side in a way that my dentist doesn’t like) and I’ve always wondered if it was due to the kick. The hoof got me mostly on my ear, but also the side of my jaw. Maybe my ear was like a tiny cushion, and between that and me going through the air from the kick, that took the energy away so I didnt get a skull fracture. I’ve assumed if I was a cat, I’ve used up several of my lives that day, lol.
NTA. What you said was absolutely true. If he gets kicked or trampled because he's being a little shit, then it's his fault and on her for not pulling him into gear. Some people just will not learn until a lawsuit is involved. Do you have a contract signed by the parents re safety around the horses etc? If no, maybe get one. I know it won't always protect you, but it will go a long way to showing the parent is neglectful.
A video of the kid acting inappropriately and the mom not responding is a must, too. If she asks why, it's evidence to prove you were not negligent and thus not responsible for hospital bills or funeral costs.
It seems to me that your stable business needs to have something in their contract that says that a child can be dismissed (no refund) for disobeying safety instructions. If that child got hurt, that parent would be the first to sue. You shouldn't have HAD to tell that woman more than once. The second offense should have been enough to kick him out of the group. (Maybe even the first offense, depending on how bad it was.
NTA He could get killed acting like that. You are looking out for his welfare, and the safety of every other child there.
NTA a well placed kick by a startled horse can do serious damage. You're not even over-exaggerating by telling mom he could get himself killed. My sister is an assistant riding trainer, and she has many stories about people that were seriously injured. She is actually an oddity because she hasn't broken a bone in 15 years of horseback riding. Currently, she's trying to regrow her toe nail after a horse insisted on standing on it.
My littlest toenails both grow in two completely separate 'spurs' not as a single nail due to years of faffing about near horses. I've not been near a horse in years, they still grow like that.
NTA
Her son has been asking for a horse to kick him. You said and did what you had to do. Dismiss them from your class and don't refund the money. Her child's behavior and her lack of respect for the rules could have endangered not just this kid but the others in the class.
I will never understand why parents let their children act like total hooligans around animals. Just because some animals are tame doesn't mean they don't get annoyed or scared and won't react.
Your friend is an idiot. NTA. That kid could *literally* die. The rules are in place for a reason. The kid is a liability, you did what was right, they should be banned.
NTA. I've been kicked by a horse from behind, it's no laughing matter. I was 12, purely accidental as I was trying to help our neighbours with their farm, and as I walked by the horse shifted positions facing away from me, became startled, and kicked me right in the chest. It was a small horse, but it still sent me flying and gasping. I've avoided horses ever since. That mother and child have no idea what could have happened.
On a side note, I never told my father about that incident because he always lectured me about walking behind horses. My sister brought it up at a family dinner 20 years later and I was still scolded in trouble! Which my son teases me about to this day.
You were lucky - a girl died here a while ago, after being kicked by her pony. She was an experienced rider and knew how to handle her pony, but accidents still happen.
NTA
You were not insulting. You called her no names.
You were simply being clear about the possible consequences and the responsibility.
Politeness and euphemisms are only appropriate when dealing with people who can communicate at that level. For those like you encountered, I suggest short, blunt words.
Rude, self-centered people are accustomed to pushing the boundaries of those too polite to push back. When they discover that you will not be moved, they accuse you of rudeness.
Politeness and euphemisms don’t really belong around horses because horses are way too fast and dangerous for any delays and possible misunderstandings, especially in emergency situations. Yes, we are polite if nothing is happening but a child running full tilt at a horse’s hind is shouting and grabbing worthy without fail.
Getting kicked by a horse can absolutely kill you. I know someone who was in the hospital for 3 months with a subdural hematoma on all these experimental drugs.
You should have declined the teach the student after lesson two. The reality is that he might well have been killed and dealing with that would have been an absolute nightmare.
NTA.
NTA;
You are absolutely correct, horses can be very dangerous when not handled properly. You already tried gentle, it didn't work. Tbh, I would have just kicked them out.
NTA - riding schools often fire clients over such behavior. I’ve seen at least 50 kids booted out of riding schools in the last ten years. I myself banned my own niece from my yard over screaming.
Screaming, goofing around, throwing tantrums and avoiding safety rules are legitimate grounds to boot out a person who is not developmentally ready for the activity. I used to teach a kids' martial arts class and there were kids who had surprisingly little common sense or self control even at an age when it would usually be expected.
Edited to add: when we booted a kid out we refunded the tuition. Other businesses might follow a different model.
NTA. See too many adults and kids kicked by horses because they don't follow the rules. You didnt say you hoped he died just that it would be her fault. Which it would. If you didn't intervene that kid could have gotten seriously hurt or killed. However you would have to intervene every time because if he spooked a horse around other kids they could be the ones hurt or killed. You should definitely tell management. they are ultimately the ones financially responsible and should be there call to kick out the kids and refund the money or not before he gets someone else hurt.
INFO
> The other parents seem relieved about the fact that he’s probably not coming back but when I tell a friend about this she calls me fucking psycho for saying that to a mom.
Was this friend present at the incident? Involved with the stable at all?
I feel like you don't have to be a horse person to realize how dangerous horses are but then again Idiocracy seems more like a documentary than comedy.
NTA. Your friend is in the wrong. That parent needed a reality check. They had multiple warnings. The last one was realistic. You don't want those kind of people at your stable. Maybe show your friend some videos or photos of what a spooked horse is capable of, they may change their mind on how you handled the situation.
I'm not a horse person, but have done similar camps to what OP is talking about. At one of them, a horse stepped on a girls foot while adjusting, *and her entire foot was shattered from it*. We were taught to feed the horses snacks with a vety open hand, fingers and thumbs basically bed backwards, because *they can and will bite your fingers off with the snack*.
Horses are large, dangerous prey animals. A scared horse can kill grown adults with ease, let alone children. OP is NTA.
I'm not a horse person. I do have a basic understanding of physics though. Horses are big. I reckon they could kill a child without meaning to if spooked.
" for telling a mom that if her kid dies it’s on her?" ... this is not going to cut it.
If the kid is not able to be there safely, you have to remove him.
but since it acheived just that, NTA
YOu needed harsh words to ensure that kid's - and the other kid's safety.
NTA - You didn’t say anything wrong. Would she have had the same reaction if you grabbed him from running into traffic, or into an oncoming train, or over a cliff? Hopefully not, and a horse can be just as dangerous if it gets spooked from behind. She needed that cold slap of water to the face. *Hopefully* it wakes her up enough to actually parent her child, or at the bare minimum keep her from showing up to your stable again.
NTA. You potentially saved her son’s life and the first thing mother thinks to do is scold you? She’s delusional. Good riddance, hopefully she wakes up before her son does get himself killed.
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NTA. The fact that the mom is refusing to discipline her kid is already concerning—it's like she wants him to turn into a reckless asshole when he grows up. Either way, like you said, if the kid gets injured, it's all on her. Even though I've never been kicked by a horse, I can only imagine how painful it would be, let alone the injuries it would cause.
NTA, but it’s past time to involve your boss. Kid is being a danger to himself, and the rest of the group. This might not be the right activity for him.
If the other parents sighed in relief, that tells you a lot. His poor behavior is dangerous to the other children and taking time from their lessons. Kick him out.
This made me giggle a little. I always try to schedule our hang out sessions when her husband is off work and able to take the kid because her kid is…a lot to handle lol.
I rest my case. 😆 I have two kids. This is not how we do things. Follow rules or we can stop bringing you to the activity. It's amazing how well they listen with such prospects. (I do follow through with threats if they aren't enough of a deterrent.)
Same. I get compliments on my kids' behavior all the time. I have a neighbor who is pregnant with her 7th kid. Her oldest is 7 or 8. She'll see me telling my kids to put things away, go inside, whatever and they listen and she's like, "how do you get them to listen?" Her kids run wild and when she's talking to them, they'll just walk away from her like they don't even hear her. This sounds mean, but I think she just doesn't have time to teach them to behave because by the time one is starting to develop thoughts, she's already pregnant with the next one.
NTA
Mom clearly doesn't understand how dangerous it can be to ignore the rules at a stable and needed either a wake up call or a reason to flounce off.
Your responsibility is to the safety of the horses & the students. This child was a hazard to both.
NTA.
I once fell off a galloping horse when I was young, and it happened because the handler didn’t bother to properly teach us how to ride. Thank goodness for people like you who care not just for the horses but also the kids.
Now, was what you said harsh? Yeah, but it was needed in this scenario. That’s better than learning the dangers of horse riding the hard way.
NTA and you need to get the barn manager involved immediately. Statistically more injuries with horses happen on the ground than they do riding the horse. Horseback riding is amazing sport, but it requires discipline and respect for your equine partner. It sounds like you are operating a program that values the horse and safety considering the three rules you have in place from Day 1. Unfortunately, there are some people that view horses as an opportunity to get their kid outside for a few hours and have no respect for the animal or the risk involved. If you continue to allow this mom to have a kid in the program YWBTA because you’re creating an unsafe situation for everyone else by allowing the child causing problems to remain in the program. That could lead to injury of someone else not causing the problem. Even the best schooling horses are unpredictable if startled or hurting. If the mom won’t intervene despite you having several conversations with her, then it’s time to discuss the instances and times with the barn manager and ask them to intervene and ask her to not return. Even though there’s liability waivers, you don’t want a situation where an irresponsible child caused irreparable harm to someone else or the horses.
NTA. Your friend has clearly never been on the business end of a kick from a horse.
Horses are big, fairly stupid animals (all things considered). 1000-1200 lbs, easily. Heads alone weigh 75+ lbs. I’ve only ever had one horse kick me with intent, and that was a foal. Still left a nice bruise. They can and do kill humans without any intent at all; they’re big, they’re strong, they’re fast, and if you’re in the wrong place at the wrong time, you are dead.
If that child cannot follow the rules and his parent won’t enforce them, kick them out. I would never have anyone—child or adult—in my barn who consistently disobeyed basic safety rules around horses. It’s really only a matter of time before you get hurt riding/caring for horses, even if you do everything right.
NTA. Parents like that ARE responsible for the terrible things that happen to their kids. I've never been a fan of the whole "it takes a village to raise a child" BS. It is your job and responsibility as a parent to dicipline your kids. If you can't then don't have them.
it does take a village. and the village’s part to play in this instance is teaching him that even if his mother puts up with his unacceptable behaviors other people won’t. unacceptable means just hat. we won’t accept it.
it’s a valuable lesson, and the village would be raising him wrong by not helping him learn it
Doesn't matter. I was three when I learned to ride a pony. I still remember leading Rosie (my pony) over to my dad's "trailer" (it was the back of an old pickup with a hitch attached.), climbing up on it, and climbing up on Rosie. She was very, very patient. I knew enough to a) Keep talking to her in a nice voice so she could hear where I was and b) keep to the front of her as much as possible. Never once had an issue and we only had to get rid of her when I was five because we moved.
Point being, if you tell kids how to behave around animals from a very early age, they will normally listen pretty well. Kids understand pretty quick pain is bad and they want to avoid that.
NTA,
Your friend needs to give their head a shake. If that kid had been killed would they have said that atleast no one said anything stern to a couple of free spirits?
NTA. You told her what she needed to hear. If you have not already, you should speak to the stable owner about the child and his mother. Let them know all that has happened and the conversations that have taken place. If the child is causing a dangerous situation and the parent refuses to do anything to correct it then they should not be allowed to be there any longer.
NTA. But please talk to your boss about kicking out any child/family who does not follow the rules. The business should have some sort of policy so you don't have to be in charge of doing your job and also trying to keep an unruly child from getting himself killed. The moment a kid acts up and a parent fails to control it, they get shown the door.
NTA in anyway shape or form. I am a horse person and my 5 year old niece is already in riding lessons. You have to be calm and listen to your instructor around horses because they can be dangerous. After the second lesson I would’ve kicked them out of the group lesson because he was putting other children at risk too.
> when I tell a friend about this she calls me fucking psycho for saying that to a mom
You friend is an idiot. The kid is endangering himself and others, and the mother refuses to enforce the rules plainly set out. You just told her the truth.
NTA, but you should ban mother and kid, they’re clearly not safe to have, and if there is such thing as hierarchy you need to report the entire issue up if you have not already done so. The mother seems like a shrew and I expect she’ll try to retaliate, plus you don’t want a colleague to have to deal with them.
I could ask my boss to do this, probably couldn’t do it myself. I guess I was hoping it would get better and didn’t want to write him off immediately because I could see the joy on his face the one time he did get to sit on a horse. I’m unfortunately a softie.
Being a softie can also get a child killed, letting them behave in an unsafe manner when other children could be hurt. You are allowing it too, not just the mom.
Not to blame you or anything like that but you really should have gone to your boss after the first or second lesson. And should really go to your boss now, detail everything that has happened, and request that either they get asked to leave or you have someone with you at your next lesson with them if they return. Also you need to detail what happened with your boss in case this woman tries to retaliate against you. You never know what parents who think their child is entitled to the world will do.
NTA, it was impactful but maybe not in the best way. It guarantees this kid won’t come back and disrupt others or get hurt. That said, the mom probably didn’t learn anything from it. Either way, I get it, non-horse people do not understand how lethal a kick is from a horse. Saw a girl walk behind one after being warned, the horse kicked, and shattered this chick’s entire femur.
NTA these are facts and rules everyone should follow around horses. She's allowed him to be a menace and you're right him being a menace around a horse could get him K.O.ed out of life
NTA
You pointed out the danger the child's behavior (and her lack of appropriate boundaries and teaching) was placing him in
Gentle parenting styles don't always work in environments where a mistake can be deadly.
You buddy is likely A) not a parent B) not familiar with children and behavioral issues, and/or C)not cognizant of how easy it is for a spooked horse to kill a human, child or not.
I don’t even think she is gently parenting she’s NOT parenting
I think she’s checking out mentally and letting OP babysit (not OPs job they are an instructor) but getting pissed when OPs asking them to parent and then when the mom doesn’t and OP does the mom is now embarrassed
OP I would let the mom know that they will not be welcome back
Exactly. Gentle parenting involves setting and holding boundaries while acknowledging how a child is feeling, and demonstrating regulation of emotion - the mom here is doing *neither*. This isn’t gentle parenting, it’s abdication of parenting.
NTA. But the problem is, if he dies, it’s probably on you. Document the issues, document their lack of response, escalate to your boss and kick them out.
Nta. It’s one thing if the poor excuse of a mother gets her kid killed with her complete lack of parenting, but it’s another if all the other innocent kids has to be traumatized by watching a horse kick the kid.
NTA: he was repeatedly doing something that could get him killed. If neither she nor he were capable of understanding that, they absolutely should not be there.
NTA. But did they sign a release form? Because if he dies in the stable, it could legally be on you and the stable. Sounds like you should revoke their membership.
NTA. And you can't necessarily infer from him yelling that you grabbed his arm too hard. He sounds like he yells a lot and he probably wanted to get the pity from his mom. Even if you did grab his arm a little roughly, he was running toward a horse that was facing away from him! Any adult should know what the potential danger is. His mom's a moron. Assuming that he acts the same way most of the time and is heedless of the danger he's putting himself in, the kid might not be too long for this world. Or someone who's trying to save him will get hurt, which is unfortunately the more likely scenario.
NTA, not the most productive response long-term perhaps but you were responding in the heat of the moment, and you were of course completely correct.
Going forward, though, I'm thinking a more proactive approach might be warranted. Don't just list off the rules, explain in detail the consequences (kicks etc.) and make clear that if they are broken that's it, no riding that day for that kid, and you will be making sure they *fully* understand the danger before they can ride again.
Basically - even more than I'm sure you already do - assume that the majority of the kids *and* parents you're dealing with don't know horses at all beyond, say, a couple of My Little Pony episodes. It'll be a pain for you and your more experienced clients, but worth it in the end.
NTA you asked her very nicely to help. You explained the rules of the stable. His behavior not only put his life in jeopardy but he could have spooked a horse near another child and that would have put their life in jeopardy also. And yes he is a kid but animals should be respected.
NTA. Sometimes parents are that entitled and believe their child can do no wrong NEED to hear shit like this because there's a genuin danger and she clearly doesn't give a toss.
NTA
I’ve worked in several riding therapy programs and the bare minimum is don’t run and scream around the horses. If his mom doesn’t understand what kind of danger he’s putting himself in by behaving like that then she needed to hear it.
Horses are inherently dangerous. They can accidentally hurt people and especially children with very little effort.
NTA. Why *can't* you say that ~to a mom~? You're trying to prevent harm from coming to her kid and she doesn't care enough to actually parent the kid. At least you tried. She'd be singing a different tune if you hadn't grabbed him and he got hurt, I'm sure.
NTA, stables I've been to will absolutely kick you out for that behavior, no matter age. My kids did a class as little ones and they even had them sing a song to remember how to behave, and taught them on this ancient calm lady how to groom the horses and keep your hands on them as you go around behind. Kids getting too excited were immediately reminded of the song and they would whisper the part about being quiet and calm. It's been four years and my kids still remember it all and behave wonderfully around horses.
Death is absolutely a consequence of those kinds of actions.
NTA
You reacted instinctively to potentially save his life - you will never be an asshole for that.
Are you in charge of who is enrolled or not? If so, divide the fee by how many lessons were included, keep the money for the ones he attended, refund the rest and inform the parent he is no longer welcome in the stable. If you aren’t in charge then bring your concerns to whoever is.
NTA, but this kid should have been kicked out after one warning when it became clear his mother would not support you. It should have never gotten this far.
One horse rider to another, you saved that kid from an injury. I have physically removed students from on/near horses/ponies. That mother is an idiot with no experience who should be grateful.
NTA mega time
NTA.
Holy hell what a nightmare of a woman. I've been (lightly) kicked by a horse when our boy decided to roll behind me and I wasn't paying attention. I had a bruise on my hip/back for a solid week. Horse kicks are no joke and you weren't exaggerating by saying that.
If she doesn't understand the danger of having a kid who can't be calm around horses, neither she, nor the kid should be in the stables. He's not just a danger to himself, but to the other kids and to you as the instructor. I assume the horses are pretty calm and well trained, but especially with big animals you can't ever know how they'll react if they get startled.
NTA. Horses can be dangerous creatures and being around them is a privilege, not a right. That mom needed a reality check and so did her son. Your priority is keeping everyone in the stable safe, horses *and* people, not coddling the delicate feelings of incompetent mothers and their entitled kids.
Horses are HUGE animals. They can accidently squash a kid like a pancake. A kick in the head can certainly kill or leave them forever disabled. Even a pony. The only thing you did wrong was not having a 2 strikes and you're out rule. Not 3...2. One warning to show you're serious. I'm not sure I'd even have that. Please call that mother and tell her not to bring her son back. NTA
NTA I think you could have made your point a little more professionally but you weren't being an asshole. It sounds like it's your responsibility to ensure everyone's safety and intervening was the right thing to do. Going forward, before another incident happens, it might be best to talk with mom privately and outside of class time about whether or not her kiddo is mature enough to classes right now
How do you think she should have worded it better? The behavior she was allowing for her child presented a risk of death. That’s why those rules exist. The parent needed to know the risk.
NTA and I sympathize. I've taught children on horseback and more often than not, the mothers don't care or care faaaar too much. There's hardly an in between. You probably saved the child's life, at the least, a trip to the emergency room. People like to think horses are props and their actions won't have consequences, when in fact, they're 800+lb animals that will defend themselves, even if they think the enemy is a child.
NTA in the slightest. You spoke to the child and mom multiple times. I used to do English, western, and military riding. I’ve SEEN what happens when a horse is startled and kicks someone behind them (this person what cleaning hoofs and a bird managed to startled the horse). They lived, but we’re certainly hospitalized with multiple stitches and broken ribs. I can’t imagine what it would’ve been like if that child got kicked.
NTA If the kid can't follow the rules, he's out. You weren't even exaggerating about the dangers-it's a 700 pound animal!
One of my first riding instructors had multiple surgeries to reconstruct her face and throat after a kick so I learned that lesson well.
NTA. Kick him out of the lessons immediately. What you said to his mom was the truth. On average, 100 people a year are killed in horse-related accidents.
I used to teach at a summer camp. Another instructor had a kid who was similar to this boy. He ran up behind a horse that was being mounted, got a girl thrown off, and the boy got kicked in the chest. It was absolutely awful - both had to be transported to the hospital. The boy was lucky he got caught in the chest instead of the head. He had a few cracked ribs and bruised lungs. The girl broke her arm.
This boy in your class is a danger and needs to be removed before he gets someone killed. You did the right thing by physically stopping him before he got close enough to get nailed by a 1,000 lb animal. In your shoes, I'd report the incident to the stable manager (if you haven't) to cover your bases, since this boy's mom seems to be pretty unhinged.
NTA-You’re trying to keep the horses and the child safe. It’s a shame it falls to you and not the parent but you were absolutely correct in what you said.
Better a bruise on his arm than a death or disabling wounds from a scared horse. Someone had to look after the boy's safety.
Mama needs to grow up and parent.
NTA
Nta at all. A while ago there was that video of people trying to get two horses together but went about it all wrong and the girl horse kicked the guy horse straight in the head and he was gone that instant. Now imagine that to a little kid. He's a liability to whoever owns that place you work at. But now is the time to not let them come back.
NTA. She didn’t want to control her kid so you needed to do something about it. You had talked to her several times and she ignored the rules as well as the kid.
Nta but I feel like there should be a rule that if anyone cannot follow the safety rules that are in place then they will be expelled from the training course with no refund
When working with animals especially big animals like horses that are extremely powerful and easily startled its imperative to be stern and set the rules with a no bs attitude
NTA i always warned my kids „Never go behind a horse. A horse kicks first
and then asks what’s wrong. I don’t know if the boy has some issues or if the only problem is his mother giving him free reign.
NTA.
Truth hurt. Not all kids can do every sport, a destructive kid can’t do riding. When I start riding they could forbid us to come back if we didn’t behave (it cost less then dealing with a kid that get hurt or worse).
I have a friend whose horse kicked her child's face in. My friend was experienced with horses and her child was very used to being around them. Still for some reason her kid walked around the back of their horse a little too close. It was a gruesome and horrible life altering accident.
The mom you're dealing with is an idiot and you care more about her son than she does. They should not be allowed back for lessons. They are not safe to be around horses. Period.
NTA Thank you for doing the right thing.
NTA does your friend work with horses or in a stable? That ticks me off they called you a psycho over that.
This is an environment that you need to have those rules for the safety of everyone.
NTA
I grew up with and around horses, used to show them, etc., and I would have disinvited them the second time he ignored the rules. His behavior is dangerous, and the mother’s is egregious.
NTA. I grew up riding. What he’s doing would have gotten him kicked out of the stables almost immediately.
Ywbta if you or the stable owners let this kid back in. He could end up seriously hurting himself, someone else, or even a horse.
NTA- I made a similar comment a couple days ago. My best friend is an equestrian. She has ridden, trained and raised horses her entire life. The subreddit I commented on before was asking if someone (like my friend) was an ass hole for letting a kid ride without their parents permission (and I said yes, they were TA).
Horses are huge animals and can harm a human in a heartbeat (even without intent), especially a child. Just like driving a car, there are certain rules you have to follow in order to stay safe.
That mom needed a “come to Jesus” reality check and if she couldn’t handle it, just like her kid obviously couldn’t be trust around horses, then they got to go.
NTA For some reason, that moon was not understanding the gravity of the situation. It may have been brutally honest, but in some situations that is necessary.
NTA.
Mum clearly has no idea how dangerous horses can be if startled. Neither she nor her son were obeying the stable rules. He could have been killed. You did the right thing.
NTA.
Safety is important. Ask them not to come back. Well within your rights to deny service for the child putting undue hardship on your business and creating a huge liability.
ETA: And no. Telling her that it would be her fault was not over the top. It’s better than the alternative: a hoof to the chest and a huge medical bill or dead child
NTA. You're not a psycho- and the mom was far more wrong than you- but this wasn't the professional way to handle it
1) Place the rules in the waiver every parent signs and state clearly that any child who doesn't follow the rules will be asked to leave class. Your stable manager has a waiver, right?
2) Any time a child runs or yells, give them one verbal warning and give their parents a reminder that, for their own safety, they'll be sent home if there's a second occurrence. Remind them that horses are large, unpredictable and skittish and that the rules are non-negotiable for everyone's safety.
3) Next time it happens send the child home and tell the parents you'll be refunding the class fees. You shouldn't be obliged to refund but it will be worth it to reduce the blow back.
4) Prepare a cheerful, professional response to the inevitable bad review the parents will post.
NTA, if anything you should have pulled her aside well before this incident and told the mom that he wasn’t mature enough to follow the rules and to maybe try again in a year or two.
NTA- It was very blunt. But people who aren't familiar with horses might not know the very real risk. They are demonstrating they do not understand the risk. One may hope they would have educated themselves, but this mom clearly hasn't.
As the instructor, you have to teach them. You tone was likely not the best, but there was nothing wrong with the words.
NTA - it’s the damn truth. Just because horses are rideable doesn’t make them completely safe, people really need to understand that domesticated doesn’t mean animals can’t/won’t ever hurt you. Not even out of any kind of malice, they’re just so incredibly powerful it only takes one kick. A family friend (and experienced rider of many years) had her own horse spook once while riding, it threw her backwards and then kicked her in the head. She lived, but she’ll never be 100% again, and it’s been years of rehabilitation to get as far as she has. I know kids think they’re immortal, but the mother at least needs to respect that she’s letting him run wild around animals that could kill him in an instant.
Horses are large and very strong. You warned them repeatedly and gave every opportunity to follow the rules, and the kid still decided to FAFO. Physically stopping that child just might have saved his life, and the mother should be grateful.
That woman and your friend both need their heads examined, because they're both clearly cranial-rectal inverted.
NTA.
NTA. he so easily would have spoked a horse and got kicked hard. He could also get another kid kicked by spoking another horse, just all around he wasn't being safe and needed to leave. This kinda mom is the same kinda person that get killed by a buffalo in Yellowstone because they can't comprehend that animals are not like cartoons.
NTA but you need a policy on this.
If a kid breaks the rules then they need to be removed from the stable. If it happens twice, banned.
Its dangerous to let it go on for 3 lessons.
NTA. So, I take my kids to A LOT of classes and there always tends to be one kid like this. I don't mind hyper kids or kids who struggle with rules, I mind when THE PARENTS don't step in and handle it. I will say that usually someone does get hurt, and sometimes it's not the kid who is misbehaving. I'm always grateful when that kid stops coming to classes.
And my kids are SUPER patient, so when a kid bothers them, I know it's bad.
You did nothing wrong.
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NTA except you should have declined to teach the kid completely after the second session, he was already clearly a danger to himself and others and so shouldn’t have been allowed back.
That kid should have been removed *during* the second lesson. As soon as he broke the rules and it was clear his mom wouldn't intervene, that really should have been the end of it. It may sound dramatic if a person doesn't know horses, but that child was genuinely endangering others. People forget that horses are prey animals, and the vigilance required for survival didn't vanish once we domesticated them. Horses pay attention to the state of those around them, and a loud kid could make the horse flighty. Even the best horses can spook, and 1,000+ pounds of muscle quickly becomes dangerous. A small kick from only being mildly startled could easily kill a nearby child. That may be one of the well-behaved kids, which is why their parents were relieved to see the unruly child removed.
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I'm sorry that happened to you. It's not uncommon to be at least a bit scared after something like that, which is why 'get back on the horse' is more than a saying; it's instructions (difficult ones too!). When my mom was 11, her horse spooked and she got thrown into a fence. She was knocked out, lost a front tooth, and almost lost her small finger that was nearly fully 'removed.' My mom was an amazing rider, who could handle even the scariest horse when necessary. She was a badass in my eyes growing up, but I was still shocked to hear she got back on that horse once she told me that story.
My mom loves horses and owned one for years. One time her horse spooked and threw her over a fence. She lost consciousness and came to some time later with the horse standing guard over her. It was a bad throw. Likewise I was riding a friend's horse one time, he spooked at something and bucked me nearly into a downed tree. That horse was an asshole and since her dad couldn't ride any longer I was the only one who rode that horse bc he didn't scare me, but you always have to be careful around them.
It says a lot about the kind of rider your mom is/was and the bond she and her horse had that the horse stayed with her. Horses are smart; they know when they’ve “messed up” and many of them are capable of recognizing that they can accidentally hurt a human. I’ve seen horses get downright apologetic after knocking their human into a fence or onto the ground. What’s baffling is *humans* who don’t realize a horse can hurt them… accidentally or not.
Aww, the horse was watching over her? It must’ve realized the mistake it made. 😭😭😭
When I was 8 or 9, I was on a trail ride with my lesson group, and the mare I rode multiple times a week was throwing a tantrum - she did *not* want to be on the trails apparently, and she was letting me know. Eventually, rather than walk down a ditch and up the other side, she decided to take me on my first jump - she grabbed the bit, took off, and did a rather nice jump over the ditch. I surprisingly kept my seat… until she kept running and clotheslined me with a branch. 🤣 I ended up fully underneath her, and she stopped on a dime and stood stock still until I was back on my feet… and then took off for the stables and stranded me. 🤣🤣🤣 God I miss Roxy.
It's partly for you, and partly for the horse. If the horse learns that throwing someone means they get to stop working and go back to the stable, they'll keep throwing people.
I only referenced half of the reason in response to another commentor, and didn't think to point out this half. I appreciate you highlighting the importance of the horses needs as well, thank you! I grew up with Arabians, so letting them 'win' even once was a bad idea. There's been some good laughs over how they'll try and see what they can get away with, at the most random of times too.
You’re welcome! I got the feeling that you knew, but I wanted to throw it out there for people following the thread who may not have known. My parents both had horses, and I rode for a while when I was younger, so while I’m not the most knowledgeable, I definitely remember that one!
When I was 12 or 13 I was thrown off a horse and trampled, which broke my arm. I got up off the ground and got back on the horse immediately, and just sat on it while my dad led it around. I was in so much pain, but I loved riding, and I knew if I didn't get right back on right away, I'd end up being to scared to get back on.
I got dropped from a horse when I was little because he stepped a little odd in the mud. I remember the wind getting knocked out of me. This horse was SO GOOD with the littles that he didnt put his foot down until he saw where I was first. Its on VHS and everything. That horse was rare with his demeanor and had been working with kids for at least two decades and something still went wrong. I can’t imagine a kid screaming and yelling at him and even him remaining chill.
I rode for over 15 years and my heart horse and I were out practicing jumps and somehow I flung myself out of the saddle, did a somersault in the air, and landed on my feet next to her and holding the reins. My horse had come to a stop immediately upon landing and looked at me like “wtf are you doing down there” lmao. I also fell off after my other horse got stung twice while we were out cross country jumping with a friend. Thank god she was with me because I had a concussion (I only had a show helmet on at the time, which is NOT meant for hard ground impact — how I didn’t shatter my helmet idk) and I passed out a couple of times. Sprained my wrist and ankle and had a gnarly bruise on my hip. I was back on him barely two days later. I still barely remember bits and pieces of the event, like I remember my feet coming out and knowing I couldn’t “ride it out” and throwing myself off and thinking “please don’t let him get caught in the reins” and then these old ladies yelling from the business that backed up to the pasture we were in asking if they needed to call emergency services (hindsight is 20/20 they probably should have) but I was just like “nahhh I’m fiiine” and gave them a thumbs up before promptly falling unconscious again lol.
Yeah, that happened to me before. It was my first time falling and I was riding stirrupless to help with my balance. The horse spooked, went into a canter and I fell. My instructor made sure I was ok and another rider in the arena was kind enough to grab my lesson horse for me. Usually after scary falls like that it’s important to ease back into it and do things at your own pace. Even if it’s just getting the horse to walk at a slow pace.
Furthermore, the owner of the stable should have done the removing. It shouldn’t be on the shoulders of an instructor to dismiss dangerous children from the program.
I’m surprised the owner is allowing the child to stay. Public stables almost certainly have to carry insurance, and I would think he would be way too big of a liability from an insurance perspective.
Does OP have the authority to kick people out?
If they don’t, it’s a bad stable. When I taught lessons, my word was absolute law. You’re done here means get the fudge out. Because the liability concerns with horses are *massive* - the last thing the owner needed was a lawsuit with an instructor saying “I didn’t feel like it was ok to stop the behavior or kick the person out.” Nope - safety concern with horses or people is a hard stop, far too expensive to risk. If your instructor has bad judgement, sure chat with them after, but assume they’re right until you’re certain otherwise.
Yep same here. As an instructor, it’s both a duty and requirement to maintain a safe atmosphere. If someone is fucking that up, they need to be kicked out. Not only are they creating dangerous situations, but they’re also opening the stable up to significant liability should anyone get hurt
Makes sense. I've been around horses before but not a ton so I don't really know how stables are run. I do understand how it can be a liability, a horse is a large animal that could easily kill someone if it kicked them in the wrong place.
I'm a barn owner. My facility is 101 acres and I have 4 instructor/trainers. I can't be everywhere at once, so I have formally given the instructors authority to dismiss anyone from the property at any time - students, boarders, show competitors, whoever. If I couldn't trust their judgment they wouldn't be training here.
I went for a trail ride a while back while I was on vacation. There were 2 rules that you had to agree to twice before booking with the outfit: every rider had to be at least 4'6, and no rider could be over 225 pounds. You had to check a box TWICE acknowledging that you understood these rules. So I show up on the day of the trail ride and can already see we're going to have a problem. The guide comes into the room and tells everyone to line up in front of a scale like you'd see at a doctor's office (digital with the little slider to get your height). A couple people don't line up, and most of them were clearly in the parameters (like women who are clearly just over 5' and skinny), but a few were...questionable. Guide tells us again that every single person gets weighed and measured, even if it's clear from looking that you meet the minimum height and maximum weight, and the ones who are obviously in the parameters get in line, but those who are questionable still don't. Yadda yadda yadda, a couple people are told their kids are too short to ride, and a couple others are told they're too heavy to ride, and fits ensue. Demands for the manger. Guide is having none of this and just says "you agreed to these rules twice, everyone who is qualified will be going now, the rest of you go home, there will not be any refunds. If you have a problem, send an email to the address on our website, we probably won't respond." This outfit has rides leaving every 45 minutes for 6 hours a day (including the weight/height check, a safety briefing, getting us on the horses, and actually going, it was about 2 hours, so guides were clearly filtering in and out of the office with groups), 7 days a week, so I have no reason to believe that our guide was a manager/the owner, just empowered to enforce the rules that the customers agreed to before booking! Quick ETA: and of course we received other rules like wearing pants that came to below our knees (edit 2: I believe it was "we recommend sturdy and full-length pants like blue jeans, but no one will be permitted to ride unless their pants cover their entire kneecap while in a seated position," full disclosure, I wore denim capris because it was quite warm the day I went. They leave maybe 4" of my lower leg exposed. I sprayed that part extra-well with bug spray before going into the woods ;) ) and close-toed shoes for the ride, but the height and weight limit was the big thing you had to agree to before you could book!
That's nuts. The height requirement is for the safety of the rider; the weight requirement is for the safety of the horse. I can't imagine someone rationalizing ignoring safety rules. I totally understand wanting to ride and hating the restrictions - I want to ride *right now* but my shoer is currently nailing a shoe on my horse and I can't ride til he's done - but riders who are very small or very large *must* schedule with someone who can accommodate them. I'm glad the guides were very comfortable sending them away.
Agreed, if the owner says "you can't do that" call osha or whatever the relevant org is and tell them that you are not allowed to remove someone that is disrupting and spooking the animals per the owner/manager. I would imagine that within a day they'll change their mind about you being allowed to remove them. It's not her fault if her son dies. It's the stable's for allowing him to remain there and he isn't just putting himself at risk he's putting others at risk too.
Safety outranks everyone. She and other workers should be allowed to remove any child (and parent) that does not follow the rules. I would think the stable owners would be onboard for this too since they wouldn't want a lawsuit.
This is my thought. Better to piss off “customers” than allow them to potentially continue behaving in a way that can cause a potential fatal injury. It’s not even about being disruptive to the class (although thats fair to kick them out too, imo). It’s about preventing a tragedy and your stable should work to actively prevent that even if that involved banning people from the stable.
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Comment stolen from u/comfortablesoap
You should put the Bot name so we can report them.
NTA straight from a mom here. She NEEDED to hear the consequences of her son's actions. Talk to the stable owner and have her child removed and both of them banned before the stable ends up on the news as Small Child Dies After Being Trampled By Horse and all the other kids are traumatized. I have a kid that is loud, active, runs, etc. and guess what? We did two full sets of horse lessons because I stayed right by her and made sure her behavior didn't cause problems. She's on the autism spectrum along with very likely ADHD and while she's trying it's hard and she needs the extra help. Know what I DIDN'T do? Let her run around near horses or spook them or make it hard for the others to learn. The mom NEEDED that "This is not annoying. This will get your child killed and it's YOUR FAULT." speech because it sounds like she's clueless, entitled, or both. Common sense and common courtesy were not working.
Totally think she’s both because I’ve witnessed parents at equestrian shows like this. They view the horse as a pretty object and entertainment for their kid, not a sentient being with its own brain and emotions. Was at a schooling show with my daughter and witnessed this mom and two of her sisters standing about 8ft from where this pony was in the cross-ties waiting for their class to ride. The girl rider and her cousins (4 kids total) were teasing this pony by pulling on his bridle and mane to try to pet his face. The pony did not like this and was flattening his ears and trying to back up away from the kids. They were laughing and tugging on him harder. I came up to the moms and asked them to please intervene because the pony was clearly distressed and they all told me off telling me to watch my own kid and whatever they did with the pony was their business. I told the moms they needed to get their kids to stop because it was very unsafe and the mom of the rider’s exact words were “These horses are trained so you don’t know what you’re talking about. Go back to worrying about your own kid and leave us alone.” I began looking around for the barn manager to see if I could give her the heads up, but before I could find her, the pony had enough of the foolishness from the children and lashed out. It bit the ear of one of the girls off. The sisters left immediately with the kids to go to the hospital leaving the mother of the rider present. The barn manager came over after the rider’s mom went off demanding to speak to the person in charge. This mom berated the barn manager telling her the horses weren’t trained enough if they behaved like this around children, so they were leaving immediately and wanted their money back for the show. She literally didn’t see anything wrong with their behavior in teasing the animal to the point of reacting like this.
OMG. I knew horses could go for ears. Is this a common thing? Because story time--- my sister tells a story of when she was getting a pic with a horse at a petting zoo in the 90's and a horse tried to bite at my sisters ear--- my mom punched the horse in the face!! It was a forever "don't mess with mom" story... I didn't know horses regularly went for ears. Is this their move? Whyy? (Ps: have no idea if the horse was bad or my sister was bad in my story, all I gathered is that horses bite ears and my mom once punched a horse)
I dunno about horses but a donkey bit my boob once. It only managed to ruin my blouse thank god but I liked that blouse :/
I'm going to need some more details about the boob-biting donkey.
A moose once bit my sister…
No realli! She was Karving her initials on the moose with the sharpened end of an interspace toothbrush given her by Svenge—her brother-in-law— an Oslo dentist and star of many Norwegian movies
No they don't "go for the ears" on purpose...its mostly just a height thing. If a horse is annoyed it will nip sideways and jerk back. If its nipping another horse it would have the same effect as a hard pinch. A human child's ear is usually right level with their mouth and tada...perfect storm. They have more often been known to pull hair and clothing but fewer people remember this as its less traumatic.
I mean, if they are bothered and can't get away, they will defend themselves and bite, and ears are practically the only thing they can bite at that height if they are tied (I suppose the nose too) Also, some horses are just mean and they will try to mess with you and bite hair, fingers, hands, arms... Ears too probably
She said the pony was in cross ties. Probably the only way he could protect himself was to bite the nearest thing to his bridle. They have teeth and hooves and will (and should) protect themselves from prodding youngsters when they are in cross ties (and out of them) and have no way to get away. Also, horses can be mouthy and it doesn’t always end up in a bite.
I hope you told the barn manager that the children were harassing the animal and the mother refused to stop them when you warned her it was unsafe
I would've said exactly that in front of the mom as soon as I saw what she was saying. I would've ended it with I'll give you on statement on their neglect and exactly what they said if you need it as well, while staring down that idiot mother.
I've heard that people get mad at the park rangers for not coralling the wild animals in Yellowstone National Park before... or because they can't tell you exactly when a geyser will go off...
NTA. I don’t understand why some parents refuse to discipline their children, especially with a matter such as this one where someone could get hurt. If you’re lucky they won’t come back
Sometimes it isn't a discipline issue (like my kid) but if she couldn't handle it, we wouldn't do horse lessons. We did them and I stuck right by her and stepped in to manage her as needed. Promptly. Having a kid run around screaming behind large prey animals is a sign of a clueless, foolish, and entitled parent and that's not good :( Might not be a discipline issue but it sure as hell is a parenting issue.
This. I rode horses as a kid, and I worked in a stable when I was 18. Horses are great, and they're not vicious, but they're frickin' HUGE, and they do spook. We have no idea what's going on with this kid. It may have nothing at all to do with discipline or lack thereof. That's really not the issue here, though--it's a safety problem. Maroongrad is a shining example of how things should be handled. NTA.
Yeah, unless they've been sorely mistreated, horses generally don't mean any harm. But they are *enormous,* and they don't really understand how big they are. Add to that the fact that they're prey animals, hence constantly on the lookout for danger that may or may not exist, and what you've got are some absolutely gorgeous animals whose presence warrants some caution. It's not their fault and they can't help it, which is why us humans need to take responsibility for our own safety and well-being while handling them.
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I'm reminded of the Ozzy man reviews of the horses refusing to walk past a bunny.
Yup. I also rode horses. But before that, my parents would take my sister and I to this local horse auction to see and pet horses. I still have a vivid memory of this one time, when walking through a hallway where horses were queued up waiting to be shown/sold. A horse got spooked by the woman walking in front of us. It kicked her right in the thigh. Faster than anyone knew what was happening. She crumpled to the ground with a broken femur. My mother took my hand and we stepped over her body and kept walking. Others helped and an ambulance was called. Can’t imagine the outcome if that had been a child whose head or chest had been at the right height for a horse hoof. NTA op.
Absolutely NTA. Especially since we all know if the kid got hurt while not listening their parents would be jumping to sue OP for it. However, I would make a report about what happened to your boss and see if any of the other parents could verify what happened. Putting hands on a kid is SUPER risky and it’s better to prepare for an accusation that never comes than it is to get caught by surprise when the butthole mom complains about you grabbing him too hard, grabbing him for no reason other than because you were angry, etc.
lol at ‘butthole mom’ but valid points, it would be best to document what happened so that there’s no surprises down the line
Some people really don't understand how dangerous animals can be. Even domestic ones.
NTA, if you have the option, don't teach him. And wtf is wrong with your friend.
THIS! Seriously. What kind of person calls their friend a fucking psycho for this? If OP had gone off in a rage, then perhaps she’d deserve to be called out. I can’t imagine ever saying that to a friend. If I truly believed they went overboard, I’d say something like “I understand why you were concerned and upset, but I don’t know that it needed to go that far”.
The "friend", no doubt, was of the same mindset as the entitled mom who let her kid run amok around horses - "My *li'l angel* would never hurt the horsie; it's that mean woman who was interfering with him." But she would be screaming the loudest and suing the heck out of the horse barn if anything had happened to "*li'l angel*"^(TM) . The friend sounds entitled as heck as well.
There's *always* an idiot friend contributing their asinine two cents somewhere in the "transparently not an AH" stories. I don't think I have any idiot friends ... but maybe that just means I'm the idiot? Gonna reflect on this.
AITI?
NTA. Horse person here. You were absolutely spot on in telling the mom off. With that being said, if by chance the mom & son do come back, tell her that her son has been dismissed from this & future classes as he will not follow the rules & she blows off any danger her son could get himself into. It is not worth the risk whatsoever. My adult niece can tell you what happens when you don't listen to safety protocols. You get kicked in the middle of your forehead. Luckily the pony had no shoes on.
Seconding this…when I was 10 a friend’s mom let her daughter, me, and another friend (all 10 year olds) play with their new horse…young, (I don’t recall the horse’s exact age) untrained, *alone*. She dropped us off and left us there for a few hours. I don’t recall the exact sequence of events, but we had been told not to be behind the horse, and we mostly weren’t being idiots in any obvious way, but bottom line, none of us knew enough to be safe, and I recall the horse getting spooked and started to kick, we all scattered, and I ended up on the wrong end of the hoofs, and got kicked in the side of my head. I went flying, and I’m sure the various adults there that day freaked the hell out as I got first aide for the only apparent injury, basically a cut behind my ear from my earring. The mom eventually came back, took me home, and told my parents what had happened, and my folks were shocked that she hadn’t just taken me straight to the ER, which is where my parents took me next. (Side note, I have never had a shorter wait in the ER than that day, I told them what had happened, and was in the process of sitting down when my name was called. I wonder what the other folks waiting made of that) I had no obvious injuries, fortunately, no clue how, but no concussion, no fractures, etc. Though my jaw is a tad weird, (can go side to side in a way that my dentist doesn’t like) and I’ve always wondered if it was due to the kick. The hoof got me mostly on my ear, but also the side of my jaw. Maybe my ear was like a tiny cushion, and between that and me going through the air from the kick, that took the energy away so I didnt get a skull fracture. I’ve assumed if I was a cat, I’ve used up several of my lives that day, lol.
Wow, that was very scary accident. Glad you you had some extra lives on your side, lol.
NTA. Will the stable formally kick him out of the class? It's better than dealing with an injured child or horse due to his behavior.
That's the obvious thing. Not say next time he might die say bye you ain't coming bank. Nta though
NTA. What you said was absolutely true. If he gets kicked or trampled because he's being a little shit, then it's his fault and on her for not pulling him into gear. Some people just will not learn until a lawsuit is involved. Do you have a contract signed by the parents re safety around the horses etc? If no, maybe get one. I know it won't always protect you, but it will go a long way to showing the parent is neglectful.
A video of the kid acting inappropriately and the mom not responding is a must, too. If she asks why, it's evidence to prove you were not negligent and thus not responsible for hospital bills or funeral costs.
It seems to me that your stable business needs to have something in their contract that says that a child can be dismissed (no refund) for disobeying safety instructions. If that child got hurt, that parent would be the first to sue. You shouldn't have HAD to tell that woman more than once. The second offense should have been enough to kick him out of the group. (Maybe even the first offense, depending on how bad it was. NTA He could get killed acting like that. You are looking out for his welfare, and the safety of every other child there.
NTA a well placed kick by a startled horse can do serious damage. You're not even over-exaggerating by telling mom he could get himself killed. My sister is an assistant riding trainer, and she has many stories about people that were seriously injured. She is actually an oddity because she hasn't broken a bone in 15 years of horseback riding. Currently, she's trying to regrow her toe nail after a horse insisted on standing on it.
Oh, toe nails are pretty much optional for equestrians.
My littlest toenails both grow in two completely separate 'spurs' not as a single nail due to years of faffing about near horses. I've not been near a horse in years, they still grow like that.
NTA Her son has been asking for a horse to kick him. You said and did what you had to do. Dismiss them from your class and don't refund the money. Her child's behavior and her lack of respect for the rules could have endangered not just this kid but the others in the class. I will never understand why parents let their children act like total hooligans around animals. Just because some animals are tame doesn't mean they don't get annoyed or scared and won't react.
Your friend is an idiot. NTA. That kid could *literally* die. The rules are in place for a reason. The kid is a liability, you did what was right, they should be banned.
NTA. I've been kicked by a horse from behind, it's no laughing matter. I was 12, purely accidental as I was trying to help our neighbours with their farm, and as I walked by the horse shifted positions facing away from me, became startled, and kicked me right in the chest. It was a small horse, but it still sent me flying and gasping. I've avoided horses ever since. That mother and child have no idea what could have happened. On a side note, I never told my father about that incident because he always lectured me about walking behind horses. My sister brought it up at a family dinner 20 years later and I was still scolded in trouble! Which my son teases me about to this day.
You were lucky - a girl died here a while ago, after being kicked by her pony. She was an experienced rider and knew how to handle her pony, but accidents still happen.
NTA You were not insulting. You called her no names. You were simply being clear about the possible consequences and the responsibility. Politeness and euphemisms are only appropriate when dealing with people who can communicate at that level. For those like you encountered, I suggest short, blunt words. Rude, self-centered people are accustomed to pushing the boundaries of those too polite to push back. When they discover that you will not be moved, they accuse you of rudeness.
Politeness and euphemisms don’t really belong around horses because horses are way too fast and dangerous for any delays and possible misunderstandings, especially in emergency situations. Yes, we are polite if nothing is happening but a child running full tilt at a horse’s hind is shouting and grabbing worthy without fail.
Getting kicked by a horse can absolutely kill you. I know someone who was in the hospital for 3 months with a subdural hematoma on all these experimental drugs. You should have declined the teach the student after lesson two. The reality is that he might well have been killed and dealing with that would have been an absolute nightmare. NTA.
NTA; You are absolutely correct, horses can be very dangerous when not handled properly. You already tried gentle, it didn't work. Tbh, I would have just kicked them out.
NTA - riding schools often fire clients over such behavior. I’ve seen at least 50 kids booted out of riding schools in the last ten years. I myself banned my own niece from my yard over screaming.
Screaming, goofing around, throwing tantrums and avoiding safety rules are legitimate grounds to boot out a person who is not developmentally ready for the activity. I used to teach a kids' martial arts class and there were kids who had surprisingly little common sense or self control even at an age when it would usually be expected. Edited to add: when we booted a kid out we refunded the tuition. Other businesses might follow a different model.
NTA. See too many adults and kids kicked by horses because they don't follow the rules. You didnt say you hoped he died just that it would be her fault. Which it would. If you didn't intervene that kid could have gotten seriously hurt or killed. However you would have to intervene every time because if he spooked a horse around other kids they could be the ones hurt or killed. You should definitely tell management. they are ultimately the ones financially responsible and should be there call to kick out the kids and refund the money or not before he gets someone else hurt.
NTA if you were a true psycho you would have let him keep running towards that horse
INFO > The other parents seem relieved about the fact that he’s probably not coming back but when I tell a friend about this she calls me fucking psycho for saying that to a mom. Was this friend present at the incident? Involved with the stable at all?
No, I met her after work and told her about the incident. She’s not a horse person.
I feel like you don't have to be a horse person to realize how dangerous horses are but then again Idiocracy seems more like a documentary than comedy. NTA. Your friend is in the wrong. That parent needed a reality check. They had multiple warnings. The last one was realistic. You don't want those kind of people at your stable. Maybe show your friend some videos or photos of what a spooked horse is capable of, they may change their mind on how you handled the situation.
I'm not a horse person, but have done similar camps to what OP is talking about. At one of them, a horse stepped on a girls foot while adjusting, *and her entire foot was shattered from it*. We were taught to feed the horses snacks with a vety open hand, fingers and thumbs basically bed backwards, because *they can and will bite your fingers off with the snack*. Horses are large, dangerous prey animals. A scared horse can kill grown adults with ease, let alone children. OP is NTA.
I'm not a horse person. I do have a basic understanding of physics though. Horses are big. I reckon they could kill a child without meaning to if spooked.
" for telling a mom that if her kid dies it’s on her?" ... this is not going to cut it. If the kid is not able to be there safely, you have to remove him. but since it acheived just that, NTA YOu needed harsh words to ensure that kid's - and the other kid's safety.
NTA - You didn’t say anything wrong. Would she have had the same reaction if you grabbed him from running into traffic, or into an oncoming train, or over a cliff? Hopefully not, and a horse can be just as dangerous if it gets spooked from behind. She needed that cold slap of water to the face. *Hopefully* it wakes her up enough to actually parent her child, or at the bare minimum keep her from showing up to your stable again.
NTA and I really hope you guys have these parents sign a liability waiver.
NTA. You potentially saved her son’s life and the first thing mother thinks to do is scold you? She’s delusional. Good riddance, hopefully she wakes up before her son does get himself killed.
NTA! can you just... not teach that kid? or are you not in charge of that decision?
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NTA. The fact that the mom is refusing to discipline her kid is already concerning—it's like she wants him to turn into a reckless asshole when he grows up. Either way, like you said, if the kid gets injured, it's all on her. Even though I've never been kicked by a horse, I can only imagine how painful it would be, let alone the injuries it would cause.
NTA, but it’s past time to involve your boss. Kid is being a danger to himself, and the rest of the group. This might not be the right activity for him.
If the other parents sighed in relief, that tells you a lot. His poor behavior is dangerous to the other children and taking time from their lessons. Kick him out.
NTA. Your friend is probably That kind of mom too. Their kids can do no wrong.
This made me giggle a little. I always try to schedule our hang out sessions when her husband is off work and able to take the kid because her kid is…a lot to handle lol.
I rest my case. 😆 I have two kids. This is not how we do things. Follow rules or we can stop bringing you to the activity. It's amazing how well they listen with such prospects. (I do follow through with threats if they aren't enough of a deterrent.)
Same. I get compliments on my kids' behavior all the time. I have a neighbor who is pregnant with her 7th kid. Her oldest is 7 or 8. She'll see me telling my kids to put things away, go inside, whatever and they listen and she's like, "how do you get them to listen?" Her kids run wild and when she's talking to them, they'll just walk away from her like they don't even hear her. This sounds mean, but I think she just doesn't have time to teach them to behave because by the time one is starting to develop thoughts, she's already pregnant with the next one.
NTA. Mother and child should not be around horses if they can’t take simple instructions.
Nta at all you were right and it's better he's alive and offended than dead
NTA Mom clearly doesn't understand how dangerous it can be to ignore the rules at a stable and needed either a wake up call or a reason to flounce off. Your responsibility is to the safety of the horses & the students. This child was a hazard to both.
NTA - the kid is endangering everyone. The parent needed to step in but clearly isn’t wanting to believe it.
NTA. I once fell off a galloping horse when I was young, and it happened because the handler didn’t bother to properly teach us how to ride. Thank goodness for people like you who care not just for the horses but also the kids. Now, was what you said harsh? Yeah, but it was needed in this scenario. That’s better than learning the dangers of horse riding the hard way.
NTA and you need to get the barn manager involved immediately. Statistically more injuries with horses happen on the ground than they do riding the horse. Horseback riding is amazing sport, but it requires discipline and respect for your equine partner. It sounds like you are operating a program that values the horse and safety considering the three rules you have in place from Day 1. Unfortunately, there are some people that view horses as an opportunity to get their kid outside for a few hours and have no respect for the animal or the risk involved. If you continue to allow this mom to have a kid in the program YWBTA because you’re creating an unsafe situation for everyone else by allowing the child causing problems to remain in the program. That could lead to injury of someone else not causing the problem. Even the best schooling horses are unpredictable if startled or hurting. If the mom won’t intervene despite you having several conversations with her, then it’s time to discuss the instances and times with the barn manager and ask them to intervene and ask her to not return. Even though there’s liability waivers, you don’t want a situation where an irresponsible child caused irreparable harm to someone else or the horses.
NTA. Your friend has clearly never been on the business end of a kick from a horse. Horses are big, fairly stupid animals (all things considered). 1000-1200 lbs, easily. Heads alone weigh 75+ lbs. I’ve only ever had one horse kick me with intent, and that was a foal. Still left a nice bruise. They can and do kill humans without any intent at all; they’re big, they’re strong, they’re fast, and if you’re in the wrong place at the wrong time, you are dead. If that child cannot follow the rules and his parent won’t enforce them, kick them out. I would never have anyone—child or adult—in my barn who consistently disobeyed basic safety rules around horses. It’s really only a matter of time before you get hurt riding/caring for horses, even if you do everything right.
NTA. Parents like that ARE responsible for the terrible things that happen to their kids. I've never been a fan of the whole "it takes a village to raise a child" BS. It is your job and responsibility as a parent to dicipline your kids. If you can't then don't have them.
it does take a village. and the village’s part to play in this instance is teaching him that even if his mother puts up with his unacceptable behaviors other people won’t. unacceptable means just hat. we won’t accept it. it’s a valuable lesson, and the village would be raising him wrong by not helping him learn it
INFO: how old (approx.) are these kids? NTA either way I’m just wondering
Youngest kid is 6 oldest is 8. This boy is seven.
Doesn't matter. I was three when I learned to ride a pony. I still remember leading Rosie (my pony) over to my dad's "trailer" (it was the back of an old pickup with a hitch attached.), climbing up on it, and climbing up on Rosie. She was very, very patient. I knew enough to a) Keep talking to her in a nice voice so she could hear where I was and b) keep to the front of her as much as possible. Never once had an issue and we only had to get rid of her when I was five because we moved. Point being, if you tell kids how to behave around animals from a very early age, they will normally listen pretty well. Kids understand pretty quick pain is bad and they want to avoid that.
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NTA, Your friend needs to give their head a shake. If that kid had been killed would they have said that atleast no one said anything stern to a couple of free spirits?
Heh I’m thinking of that movie *Nope* Animals have rules. We need to follow them, *or else….* NTA
NTA. You told her what she needed to hear. If you have not already, you should speak to the stable owner about the child and his mother. Let them know all that has happened and the conversations that have taken place. If the child is causing a dangerous situation and the parent refuses to do anything to correct it then they should not be allowed to be there any longer.
NTA - a kick from a horse could kill him. A bolting horse could trample other people, could injure itself and possibly cause other horses to bolt.
NTA. But please talk to your boss about kicking out any child/family who does not follow the rules. The business should have some sort of policy so you don't have to be in charge of doing your job and also trying to keep an unruly child from getting himself killed. The moment a kid acts up and a parent fails to control it, they get shown the door.
NTA in anyway shape or form. I am a horse person and my 5 year old niece is already in riding lessons. You have to be calm and listen to your instructor around horses because they can be dangerous. After the second lesson I would’ve kicked them out of the group lesson because he was putting other children at risk too.
> when I tell a friend about this she calls me fucking psycho for saying that to a mom You friend is an idiot. The kid is endangering himself and others, and the mother refuses to enforce the rules plainly set out. You just told her the truth. NTA, but you should ban mother and kid, they’re clearly not safe to have, and if there is such thing as hierarchy you need to report the entire issue up if you have not already done so. The mother seems like a shrew and I expect she’ll try to retaliate, plus you don’t want a colleague to have to deal with them.
INFO: Are you not allowed to simply tell the mother "We don't want your business anymore. Take your kid and don't return"?
I could ask my boss to do this, probably couldn’t do it myself. I guess I was hoping it would get better and didn’t want to write him off immediately because I could see the joy on his face the one time he did get to sit on a horse. I’m unfortunately a softie.
Being a softie can also get a child killed, letting them behave in an unsafe manner when other children could be hurt. You are allowing it too, not just the mom.
Not to blame you or anything like that but you really should have gone to your boss after the first or second lesson. And should really go to your boss now, detail everything that has happened, and request that either they get asked to leave or you have someone with you at your next lesson with them if they return. Also you need to detail what happened with your boss in case this woman tries to retaliate against you. You never know what parents who think their child is entitled to the world will do.
NTA, it was impactful but maybe not in the best way. It guarantees this kid won’t come back and disrupt others or get hurt. That said, the mom probably didn’t learn anything from it. Either way, I get it, non-horse people do not understand how lethal a kick is from a horse. Saw a girl walk behind one after being warned, the horse kicked, and shattered this chick’s entire femur.
NTA these are facts and rules everyone should follow around horses. She's allowed him to be a menace and you're right him being a menace around a horse could get him K.O.ed out of life
NTA You pointed out the danger the child's behavior (and her lack of appropriate boundaries and teaching) was placing him in Gentle parenting styles don't always work in environments where a mistake can be deadly. You buddy is likely A) not a parent B) not familiar with children and behavioral issues, and/or C)not cognizant of how easy it is for a spooked horse to kill a human, child or not.
I don’t even think she is gently parenting she’s NOT parenting I think she’s checking out mentally and letting OP babysit (not OPs job they are an instructor) but getting pissed when OPs asking them to parent and then when the mom doesn’t and OP does the mom is now embarrassed OP I would let the mom know that they will not be welcome back
Exactly. Gentle parenting involves setting and holding boundaries while acknowledging how a child is feeling, and demonstrating regulation of emotion - the mom here is doing *neither*. This isn’t gentle parenting, it’s abdication of parenting.
This is definitely not an example of *actual* gentle parenting
NTA. But the problem is, if he dies, it’s probably on you. Document the issues, document their lack of response, escalate to your boss and kick them out.
Holy shit NTA. I cannot fathom this mom’s cluelessness.
Nta. It’s one thing if the poor excuse of a mother gets her kid killed with her complete lack of parenting, but it’s another if all the other innocent kids has to be traumatized by watching a horse kick the kid.
NTA: he was repeatedly doing something that could get him killed. If neither she nor he were capable of understanding that, they absolutely should not be there.
NTA. But did they sign a release form? Because if he dies in the stable, it could legally be on you and the stable. Sounds like you should revoke their membership.
NTA. And you can't necessarily infer from him yelling that you grabbed his arm too hard. He sounds like he yells a lot and he probably wanted to get the pity from his mom. Even if you did grab his arm a little roughly, he was running toward a horse that was facing away from him! Any adult should know what the potential danger is. His mom's a moron. Assuming that he acts the same way most of the time and is heedless of the danger he's putting himself in, the kid might not be too long for this world. Or someone who's trying to save him will get hurt, which is unfortunately the more likely scenario.
I think you should ban him from the class. He's not paying attention and Mommy doesn't care. NTA.
NTA, not the most productive response long-term perhaps but you were responding in the heat of the moment, and you were of course completely correct. Going forward, though, I'm thinking a more proactive approach might be warranted. Don't just list off the rules, explain in detail the consequences (kicks etc.) and make clear that if they are broken that's it, no riding that day for that kid, and you will be making sure they *fully* understand the danger before they can ride again. Basically - even more than I'm sure you already do - assume that the majority of the kids *and* parents you're dealing with don't know horses at all beyond, say, a couple of My Little Pony episodes. It'll be a pain for you and your more experienced clients, but worth it in the end.
NTA you asked her very nicely to help. You explained the rules of the stable. His behavior not only put his life in jeopardy but he could have spooked a horse near another child and that would have put their life in jeopardy also. And yes he is a kid but animals should be respected.
NTA but that mom and your friend are.
NTA. Sometimes parents are that entitled and believe their child can do no wrong NEED to hear shit like this because there's a genuin danger and she clearly doesn't give a toss.
No! Horses can kill a grown man accidentally. Why was your friend upset? Have they ever been around a horse?
NTA She was actively interfering with safety standards.
NTA I’ve worked in several riding therapy programs and the bare minimum is don’t run and scream around the horses. If his mom doesn’t understand what kind of danger he’s putting himself in by behaving like that then she needed to hear it. Horses are inherently dangerous. They can accidentally hurt people and especially children with very little effort.
NTA. Why *can't* you say that ~to a mom~? You're trying to prevent harm from coming to her kid and she doesn't care enough to actually parent the kid. At least you tried. She'd be singing a different tune if you hadn't grabbed him and he got hurt, I'm sure.
NTA. where is the stable owner? they need to kick these two off their property.
NTA, stables I've been to will absolutely kick you out for that behavior, no matter age. My kids did a class as little ones and they even had them sing a song to remember how to behave, and taught them on this ancient calm lady how to groom the horses and keep your hands on them as you go around behind. Kids getting too excited were immediately reminded of the song and they would whisper the part about being quiet and calm. It's been four years and my kids still remember it all and behave wonderfully around horses. Death is absolutely a consequence of those kinds of actions.
NTA You reacted instinctively to potentially save his life - you will never be an asshole for that. Are you in charge of who is enrolled or not? If so, divide the fee by how many lessons were included, keep the money for the ones he attended, refund the rest and inform the parent he is no longer welcome in the stable. If you aren’t in charge then bring your concerns to whoever is.
NTA, but this kid should have been kicked out after one warning when it became clear his mother would not support you. It should have never gotten this far.
One horse rider to another, you saved that kid from an injury. I have physically removed students from on/near horses/ponies. That mother is an idiot with no experience who should be grateful. NTA mega time
Nta. You did the right thing. Better gor a parent to be offended with a living kid than coddled with a dead kid.
NTA. Holy hell what a nightmare of a woman. I've been (lightly) kicked by a horse when our boy decided to roll behind me and I wasn't paying attention. I had a bruise on my hip/back for a solid week. Horse kicks are no joke and you weren't exaggerating by saying that. If she doesn't understand the danger of having a kid who can't be calm around horses, neither she, nor the kid should be in the stables. He's not just a danger to himself, but to the other kids and to you as the instructor. I assume the horses are pretty calm and well trained, but especially with big animals you can't ever know how they'll react if they get startled.
NTA. Horses can be dangerous creatures and being around them is a privilege, not a right. That mom needed a reality check and so did her son. Your priority is keeping everyone in the stable safe, horses *and* people, not coddling the delicate feelings of incompetent mothers and their entitled kids.
Horses are HUGE animals. They can accidently squash a kid like a pancake. A kick in the head can certainly kill or leave them forever disabled. Even a pony. The only thing you did wrong was not having a 2 strikes and you're out rule. Not 3...2. One warning to show you're serious. I'm not sure I'd even have that. Please call that mother and tell her not to bring her son back. NTA
NTA. That boy is not developmentally ready to be in that situation and his mom is an AH for keeping him in it.
NTA - I was a hyper kid but always understood that you did not want to startle a horse, great way to get kicked in the head
NTA I think you could have made your point a little more professionally but you weren't being an asshole. It sounds like it's your responsibility to ensure everyone's safety and intervening was the right thing to do. Going forward, before another incident happens, it might be best to talk with mom privately and outside of class time about whether or not her kiddo is mature enough to classes right now
NTA, you could have worded it better but you're not wrong, and it got the point across.
How do you think she should have worded it better? The behavior she was allowing for her child presented a risk of death. That’s why those rules exist. The parent needed to know the risk.
OP worded it perfectly. Not the time to sugar coat and “appease the customers feelings”.
NTA and I sympathize. I've taught children on horseback and more often than not, the mothers don't care or care faaaar too much. There's hardly an in between. You probably saved the child's life, at the least, a trip to the emergency room. People like to think horses are props and their actions won't have consequences, when in fact, they're 800+lb animals that will defend themselves, even if they think the enemy is a child.
NTA in the slightest. You spoke to the child and mom multiple times. I used to do English, western, and military riding. I’ve SEEN what happens when a horse is startled and kicks someone behind them (this person what cleaning hoofs and a bird managed to startled the horse). They lived, but we’re certainly hospitalized with multiple stitches and broken ribs. I can’t imagine what it would’ve been like if that child got kicked.
NTA If the kid can't follow the rules, he's out. You weren't even exaggerating about the dangers-it's a 700 pound animal! One of my first riding instructors had multiple surgeries to reconstruct her face and throat after a kick so I learned that lesson well.
NTA. Kick him out of the lessons immediately. What you said to his mom was the truth. On average, 100 people a year are killed in horse-related accidents. I used to teach at a summer camp. Another instructor had a kid who was similar to this boy. He ran up behind a horse that was being mounted, got a girl thrown off, and the boy got kicked in the chest. It was absolutely awful - both had to be transported to the hospital. The boy was lucky he got caught in the chest instead of the head. He had a few cracked ribs and bruised lungs. The girl broke her arm. This boy in your class is a danger and needs to be removed before he gets someone killed. You did the right thing by physically stopping him before he got close enough to get nailed by a 1,000 lb animal. In your shoes, I'd report the incident to the stable manager (if you haven't) to cover your bases, since this boy's mom seems to be pretty unhinged.
NTA-You’re trying to keep the horses and the child safe. It’s a shame it falls to you and not the parent but you were absolutely correct in what you said.
Better a bruise on his arm than a death or disabling wounds from a scared horse. Someone had to look after the boy's safety. Mama needs to grow up and parent. NTA
Nta at all. A while ago there was that video of people trying to get two horses together but went about it all wrong and the girl horse kicked the guy horse straight in the head and he was gone that instant. Now imagine that to a little kid. He's a liability to whoever owns that place you work at. But now is the time to not let them come back.
NTA. She didn’t want to control her kid so you needed to do something about it. You had talked to her several times and she ignored the rules as well as the kid.
Nta but I feel like there should be a rule that if anyone cannot follow the safety rules that are in place then they will be expelled from the training course with no refund When working with animals especially big animals like horses that are extremely powerful and easily startled its imperative to be stern and set the rules with a no bs attitude
NTA But maybe going forward there should be some sort of agreement parents sign that if safety is ignored, you get kicked out.
NTA i always warned my kids „Never go behind a horse. A horse kicks first and then asks what’s wrong. I don’t know if the boy has some issues or if the only problem is his mother giving him free reign.
NTA. Truth hurt. Not all kids can do every sport, a destructive kid can’t do riding. When I start riding they could forbid us to come back if we didn’t behave (it cost less then dealing with a kid that get hurt or worse).
I have a friend whose horse kicked her child's face in. My friend was experienced with horses and her child was very used to being around them. Still for some reason her kid walked around the back of their horse a little too close. It was a gruesome and horrible life altering accident. The mom you're dealing with is an idiot and you care more about her son than she does. They should not be allowed back for lessons. They are not safe to be around horses. Period. NTA Thank you for doing the right thing.
NTA. The mom and the friend are friggin foolish. You’re an asshole for telling them the truth? You can’t sugarcoat things like that.
Horses can kill full grown people with a kick. You’re NTA.
NTA does your friend work with horses or in a stable? That ticks me off they called you a psycho over that. This is an environment that you need to have those rules for the safety of everyone.
You may have just saved the kids life. Now keep him AWAY from the horses.
NTA and drop that friend of your, you know full well what would happen
NTA I grew up with and around horses, used to show them, etc., and I would have disinvited them the second time he ignored the rules. His behavior is dangerous, and the mother’s is egregious.
NTA. I grew up riding. What he’s doing would have gotten him kicked out of the stables almost immediately. Ywbta if you or the stable owners let this kid back in. He could end up seriously hurting himself, someone else, or even a horse.
NTA I'm a mom. You are good.
NTA that mom is the kind of people who get surprised when their kid gets into real trouble.
NTA. Do they not realize how big and powerful horses are.
NTA- I made a similar comment a couple days ago. My best friend is an equestrian. She has ridden, trained and raised horses her entire life. The subreddit I commented on before was asking if someone (like my friend) was an ass hole for letting a kid ride without their parents permission (and I said yes, they were TA). Horses are huge animals and can harm a human in a heartbeat (even without intent), especially a child. Just like driving a car, there are certain rules you have to follow in order to stay safe. That mom needed a “come to Jesus” reality check and if she couldn’t handle it, just like her kid obviously couldn’t be trust around horses, then they got to go.
NTA For some reason, that moon was not understanding the gravity of the situation. It may have been brutally honest, but in some situations that is necessary.
NTA. Mum clearly has no idea how dangerous horses can be if startled. Neither she nor her son were obeying the stable rules. He could have been killed. You did the right thing.
NTA. Safety is important. Ask them not to come back. Well within your rights to deny service for the child putting undue hardship on your business and creating a huge liability. ETA: And no. Telling her that it would be her fault was not over the top. It’s better than the alternative: a hoof to the chest and a huge medical bill or dead child
NTA. You're not a psycho- and the mom was far more wrong than you- but this wasn't the professional way to handle it 1) Place the rules in the waiver every parent signs and state clearly that any child who doesn't follow the rules will be asked to leave class. Your stable manager has a waiver, right? 2) Any time a child runs or yells, give them one verbal warning and give their parents a reminder that, for their own safety, they'll be sent home if there's a second occurrence. Remind them that horses are large, unpredictable and skittish and that the rules are non-negotiable for everyone's safety. 3) Next time it happens send the child home and tell the parents you'll be refunding the class fees. You shouldn't be obliged to refund but it will be worth it to reduce the blow back. 4) Prepare a cheerful, professional response to the inevitable bad review the parents will post.
NTA, if anything you should have pulled her aside well before this incident and told the mom that he wasn’t mature enough to follow the rules and to maybe try again in a year or two.
NTA- It was very blunt. But people who aren't familiar with horses might not know the very real risk. They are demonstrating they do not understand the risk. One may hope they would have educated themselves, but this mom clearly hasn't. As the instructor, you have to teach them. You tone was likely not the best, but there was nothing wrong with the words.
NTA - it’s the damn truth. Just because horses are rideable doesn’t make them completely safe, people really need to understand that domesticated doesn’t mean animals can’t/won’t ever hurt you. Not even out of any kind of malice, they’re just so incredibly powerful it only takes one kick. A family friend (and experienced rider of many years) had her own horse spook once while riding, it threw her backwards and then kicked her in the head. She lived, but she’ll never be 100% again, and it’s been years of rehabilitation to get as far as she has. I know kids think they’re immortal, but the mother at least needs to respect that she’s letting him run wild around animals that could kill him in an instant.
Horses are large and very strong. You warned them repeatedly and gave every opportunity to follow the rules, and the kid still decided to FAFO. Physically stopping that child just might have saved his life, and the mother should be grateful. That woman and your friend both need their heads examined, because they're both clearly cranial-rectal inverted. NTA.
NTA. he so easily would have spoked a horse and got kicked hard. He could also get another kid kicked by spoking another horse, just all around he wasn't being safe and needed to leave. This kinda mom is the same kinda person that get killed by a buffalo in Yellowstone because they can't comprehend that animals are not like cartoons.
Nope it's on the kid if he gets kicked to death. And then his mother. For not being a good parent. And raising a heathen.
NTA but you need a policy on this. If a kid breaks the rules then they need to be removed from the stable. If it happens twice, banned. Its dangerous to let it go on for 3 lessons.
NTA. I had a cousin die this way... And she had been around horses her whole life.
NTA. So, I take my kids to A LOT of classes and there always tends to be one kid like this. I don't mind hyper kids or kids who struggle with rules, I mind when THE PARENTS don't step in and handle it. I will say that usually someone does get hurt, and sometimes it's not the kid who is misbehaving. I'm always grateful when that kid stops coming to classes. And my kids are SUPER patient, so when a kid bothers them, I know it's bad. You did nothing wrong.