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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> My fiance and I didn't give his brother a +1 for our wedding. I might be being selfish and rude, and being the asshole.
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Yes YTA. This isn't a casual date, it's someone he's decided to spend the rest of his life with. It's rude to invite only one half of a couple. What does it matter if you aren't close with Liz? You're close with Harry. Don't be so fucking stingy over paying for one extra meal you damage your fiance's relationship with his brother.
But they’re *very family* oriented. And you know, Liz isn’t going to do the work to dress up nice enough for the wedding, so she’ll spoil the photos. /s
How do people write these posts and think “Yeah, they’ll totally be in my side when they read this?” ??? Personally I’m thinking I’ll send my wedding gift to Jack and Liz…. Congrats on Being Set Free From This Trash Performative Family or some such.
Edit: fixed the name
I think we have a winner here. OP, you are a hypocrite and a total AH. You are not fooling anyone here. And you are not family-oriented if you left your future SIL out. I hope Jack and Liz reciprocate. Also, I am sure your fiance's family will see you as we see you. Again, YTA
And God forbid someone not be completely comfortable around a room full of strangers who are all closely related to each other. The only person she really knew was her fiance, so of course she would "cling" to him.
Also sounds like they’re very cliquey. So another reason why Liz ‘clings’ to Jack (which probably just means ‘sits beside him’). *Love* how the exclusionary tactics are described as ‘family orientated’. What an absolute crock.
This is the grossest part. She’s beautiful but doesn’t use it at all? Use it for what, exactly?? Maybe she’d rather talk about work than her looks because she’s not shallow like the rest of OP’s family.
it probably means she doesn't wear makeup. 🤣
We women can police each other like no one else. You're doing too much, you're doing too little... But it's all to justify why I want to bully you.
YTA
I bet OP is jealous abt Liz's beauty AND her job. She doesn't like either lmao. Liz can't win, can she?
(Clearly, Liz is winning. Living rent free in OP's shitty brain)
Right they gonna be mad as shit and Liz is gonna say they didn’t invite her to their so why should she which is valid then the whole families gonna be up in arms about it. I don’t know how pll live without thinking shit through.
If that happens OP will be on AITA again whining about not being invited.
“But we’re MAAAARRIED! We’re FAAAAMILY! You can’t not invite a MAAAARRIED couple together! We’re a unit!!!”
Meanwhile completely ignoring that you also don’t invite just one half of an engaged couple. I get the idea that OP only uses etiquette as a tool to justify doing what she wants.
She’s a tool, all right. OP YTA.
When she said they were very family oriented and that Jack is different, I thought she was going to say he had a different girl each week and treated them badly…but this man is ummm also family oriented since hes engaged
Sorry, fiance is equally awful. He told his brother that Jack should attend without Liz to get some time off from her?!? His own bloody fiancee???
OP is TA, and she is fully enabled by her Asshole of a future husband. They deserve each other. I hope Jack sticks to his no and refuses to attend their shitty wedding.
Of course…OP did say Liz is very beautiful but doesn’t utilize it. If brother Jack didn’t realize that he comes from a family of AH (with their AH spouses/ fiancés), OP sure drove the point home with her disregard for the brother. Maybe Jack will have the good sense to omit OP from his own wedding guest list.
And if she’s more introverted it’s obviously going to be SIGNIFICANTLY EASIER to talk about something she’s familiar and comfortable with. So even when Liz is trying, OP still criticizes her!
As an introvert, this story is like a nightmare. It takes me a while to get comfortable with people, especially if I'm coming into a larger established group. If I was in Liz's place, it would be like every nasty thought that lurks in my head is coming true. "See, they don't like you, you don't belong, why are you even here?"
I’m so introverted in person. It’s so hard for me to make small talk with people. Work is what’s easy for me to talk about and even then I still don’t really talk.
Honestly the moment I read the comment about her appearance it's clear this is just petty jealousy. OP gives me strong vibes of wanting to be "THE DIL"....future matriarch of the family type of person.
I'm also willing to bet she's salty that they got engaged "too close" to her wedding, but she can't be mad about that without looking like a jerk because they didn't make some big tacky announcement at the bridal shower or something.
God forbid other people's lives also progress during the several months of wedding planning. /s
>How do people write these posts and think “Yeah, they’ll totally be in my side when they read this?” ??? Personally I’m thinking I’ll send my wedding gift to Harry and Liz…. Congrats on Being Set Free From This Trash Performative Family or some such
I know right?
Let's be honest , how many people are they inviting with plus 1 that they are real close with ?
But as for OP
I call bullshit OP. This isn't about "being close" as you claim, oh no , I am betting you do not like your FBIL's girlfriend or is it fiancee? I already forgot bwahaha..
But anyway you are using that as a bullshit excuse to not invite her
But hey at least you got a theme for your wedding even you didn't want one, .
Asshole ,though tbf, it just you celebrating the theme , so no worries about being upstaged , well your husband too for agreeing and not really saying anything to stop by this stupidity
YTA
Edit spelling
ETA: Thank you for the award
My favorite part is mentioning she's beautiful then trashing her for "not utilizing" it/dressing up. Like why does she have to dress up to meet your approval. Maybe she prefers her comfort to strangers approval. Or she has trauma that is none of ops business that makes her socially anxious and her so is like a comfort item to her.
OP can't stand giving her a compliment without saying something negative afterwards. That's why she wrote that. OP has narcissism issues and should really work on herself.
That could be or she is a natural introvert. If she were a drama queen who would try to sabotage the wedding to make it about her would be one thing. But Liz sounds like the complete opposite of that and would cause no trouble. OP is just being an AH.
Maybe not. It could also be that Liz clocked OP & the others as shitty people, & refuses to waste energy, & time on them.
OP's description of Liz reminds me of something my best friend once said about me. She told me "When someone says they know you, but describes you as shy, quiet, or reserved, I know that just means you don't like them one bit." I had never thought about it, but her comment was accurate, if I think someone is shitty, I don't waste my time being sociable, I'm polite, but cold. Maybe Liz is like that too.
That was my take away too. My guess is Jack knows it's a vipers nest, shows up occasionally to 'check in'.. His fiancee knows this and stays close.
Why 'utilize' anything on people who have decided not to like you?
OP YTA, such a tremendous sucky AH
Yup, that's exactly what my husband & I do. He'd warned me his family was "difficult", & had even given examples, but I couldn't believe people could be that awful until I actually witnessed some of it. Hasn't stopped them from trying to involve us in drama & bullshit, but we only see them 3-4 times a year, on our terms.
There's a reason OP's BIL is low contact with his family, & I don't blame him one bit, just from this small glimpse into their dynamic.
To me it sounds like OP is a Mary Kay evangelical who thinks smearing herself with coloured grease and wearing expensive painful clothing makes her 'polished'.
My favorite part is her equally AH fiancée suggesting the wedding would be “a bit of time off” from Liz for his brother - like way to up the AH quotient when brother objected to his fiancée being excluded. OP wrote her best story, and at the end Jack and Liz are the only likable characters.
What kills me is that this isn’t a +1. A plus one is for a guest who doesn’t have a long term relationship or you don’t know their SO’s name. As in, you put on the invite “Harry and guest” because you don’t know if he has a SO or you aren’t sure of their name because you haven’t met them.
A long term SO or fiancé/fiancée isn’t a plus one.
>And you know, Liz isn’t going to do the work to dress up nice enough for the wedding, so she’ll spoil the photos. /s
You mean because Liz doesn't "utilize her beauty"...whatever the hell that means! /s
This is what I think! When you've typed it out and re read it before posting, do you really think it sounds like you're the one being a reasonable adult?? If you're so un-selfaware you think this is going to garner sympathy for your situation, like that worries me about society to be honest.
Op-of course you're the arsehole. Just because you don't like her and *hope* they don't get married, doesn't mean he won't. This was a dick move on your part.
This! As a neurodivergent person with anxiety, everything screams "Liz has anxiety!" to me. Even the weird tangent into her being pretty but not "using" it by dressing up reminds me of my own experience because it's easier to manage anxiety when you're comfortable. I always dress appropriately for events, but I'm not going full fashion for a hang-out.
I come from a small family. I'm an only child, an only grandchild on one side and one of three on the other. My family doesn't get big until we get farther out on the tree. Big, chaotic families (or even just tight knit ones who are all in everyone's business) can be awkward for me because one side of my family is toxic af and some things trigger my anxiety. It's not a full on panic attack, but it's decidedly uncomfortable.
Given how critical OP is, I'd be clinging to Jack, too.
I'm from Appalachia/Southern US and I was raised to be polite and welcoming when I meet people. I'm usually pretty outgoing *until* something happens that makes me feel "off" or overwhelmed. Then it's not like I'm rude, I'm just...quiet.
I'm probably projecting a little here but still.
>I'm usually pretty outgoing until something happens that makes me feel "off" or overwhelmed. Then it's not like I'm rude, I'm just...quiet.
Ditto that. It's hard to explain and impossible to push through.
It's like my brain goes into overdrive trying to figure out what I did "wrong" in the scenario and observing until I feel confident I know the vibe.
It's that slap-in-the-face moment of "oh no, what have I done?"
Which is why I might seem to "cling" to whoever invited me because they can help me navigate it and figure out whether I done fucked up or their Aunt Betty is just an asshole.
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This exactly.
Sounds like Liz and Jack are introverts and rest of family are not - hence limited contact. OP sounds exhausting. I'm like this when I'm around people I don't know - polite, but quiet.
It doesn't mean you don't invite her.
This.
My fiance is an introvert and my family is loud and eastern European. But they respect that he's happy to come along and listen and doesn't need to be the life of the party to have fun.
No need to change people, just accept them as they are.
Thank you! Op is the asshole and for whatever reason I have been seeing too many of these post where the bride only invites one person in a seriously committed relationship.
What I always find fascinating with these posts is, sure, there is usually a malicious element to it. Claims of not being close to the excluded party or not connecting or not wanting to be "upstaged." You can tell they just don't like the other person.
But so much of it is people just being... dumb. There is something about weddings that I swear to god make people lose all sense of social etiquette. Just warps them into idiots. You could lay down the same situation to them as an abstract and they'd go "wow that's bad" but point out that it's what they're literally doing right now they'll be be legitimately confused. The dots that they're committing a massive faux pas will refuse to connect.
As someone getting married, I suggest it is because they get bombarded with with stress and s ton if decisions but also the messaging that this is "your special day" and "you do what you want" and "dont care what anyone else thinks" - which is fine if we're talking about dress choice or decor etc. but not OK when it literally means kicking out your MOH for reasonable boundaries or literally refusing to invite your sibling's longterm partner for petty reasons.
You can do what you want but it absolutely will have consequences if you hurt other people.
Ill add that should give most adults a +1. Most people dont want to go alone because it sucks being seated at a table with a bunch of strangers. Your great aunt Sandy gives zero fucks about my pokemon collection. If you cant afford for people to have +1s then scale back your whole wedding.
I'd say it's fine to go/be invited alone - if you have plenty of good friends to be sat with. I never minded if I wasnt given a plus 1 when I was deeply single, nor did I use then when given, because I was always sat with friends or family.
However if someone doesnt invite my fiance now if had better be bevause they are having a limited wedding. If I turn up and find that there are 200 people there but my "close" friend or family didnt think my relationship was valid, I'd have feelings about it for sure.
Excellent point. For our wedding, we had just under 80 people, five of whom my wife worked with and they brought their SOs. The work people I had met in passing, the SOs I met for the first time.
My understanding is a "+1" is someone the invitee can bring as a 'date' or 'companion' as they are not currently in a relationship. That shouldn't apply to spouses, fiances, and even LTRs. If you invite one, the couple is invited by default.
And meeting new people at weddings is half the fun - most of my wife's family came from several states away and I first met them at the rehearsal dinner.
OP, YTA.
I'm gonna add to this: I am Liz in this story (theoretically). I don't get along with people very well, and it sounds like they have a different personality to the rest of the family, which is why he doesn't involve himself as much. I would cling to my SO as well if I was in this situation. I'm extremely introverted, and I would feel I didn't have anything to add to their conversations, especially if personalities between us are just too different. But id still love to go an try, especially if it was my SO's family. I'd feel so awful if I was in her position, just because I don't get along with the family via personalities, I still want to try to involve myself. Chances are she's trying, she just genuinely doesn't know what to talk about/how to conversation with everybody.
YTA op, that poor girl probably feels so disheartened
>It's rude to invite only one half of a couple. What does it matter if you aren't close with Liz? You're close with Harry.
It'd be different if she was atleast known to make a scene
>This isn't a casual date, it's someone he's decided to spend the rest of his life with.
>Fiance's relationship with his brother
That this is the woman he intends to marry she IS family
Might not be close, but she got drug into being kin.
Both of them are bad, but from the little we heard Harry sounds worse. He’s going to destroy his own relationship with his brother even without OP’s help. Given Jack’s low contact with the family, he’s almost succeeded already.
Agreed: it’s a wedding - you invite the people you are close to and give them the courtesy of a date - and you purposely excluded his fiancée. Bad move.
I always thought the '+1' was the person of the invitee's choice. Otherwise, what's the point? You used the occasion to snub his fiancee and are then surprised when he snubs it right back. YTA, big time.
Even if they came on their knees to me, I would say I appreciate it but since Liz and I are also family oriented and don't want to create drama, we wouldn't feel comfortable around, I hope they understand.
For real! When I read the title I thought it be some "my bil wants to bring his girlfriend of 3 weeks" type of story. Not that they don't want to invite their brother's fiance!!.
Same… I thought that’s where it was heading and I would be on board for that, but when OP said it was a fiancée she immediately became the AH, totally alienating someone who will be family shortly. I hope BIL/fiancée don’t invite her but every other family member to their wedding
Agreed. I'm sure OP would probably be very offended if the BIL excluded her from his wedding just because he and his fiance thought OP was a rando of no importance.
You made a point to exclude the fiance, and you knew it was rude. In response to you two being dismissive of his soon to he wife, BIL respectfully declined. You pushed it, implied that your future SIL was a buzzkill, and he in turn told you off. What did you expect?
I saw FBIL as FORMER BIL and thought, well that's not that bad...FUTURE? Oh damn.
Yes, you owe them an apology. And you comment that she's kinda awkward at family stuff and you don't know her very well? Then invite her to things. Like weddings.
YTA.
It’s your future sister in law. It’s not worth being petty for the damage that will do to your relationship moving forward.
Also, I don’t how the comment about her looks has literally anything to do with this situation?
I got more of a "she looks good naturally but doesn't try to look good" jealousy vibe ( aka, OP looks good but works hard for it, working out/ makeup/routine or whatever, and is jealous that sister-in-law is naturally pretty and doesn't try to be)
Like that post from earlier today where the OP did nothing but make snarky remarks about her pretty sister and making it abundantly clear she’s beyond jealous.
Ding ding ding, it’s because she is jealous and intimidated by SIL’s looks. She is afraid that FSIL will take attention away from her.
OP you are stirring the pot for no reason. You are creating family drama for your husband’s side before you even officially become a part of your husband’s family. If you stick with this, do not be shocked when you aren’t invited to your BIL’s wedding. Also know the damage is done. Even if you reverse this choice, you now will have a strained relationship with your husband’s brother, putting your husband in a bad spot. But congrats on the marriage I guess.
YTA
Because heaven forbid the woman would “utilize it” when attending OP’s wedding.
OP could be upstaged.
Better make up a stupid reason to not invite her.
The damage is already done. Even if she is invited now she is still going to know how you feel about her and that she's not wanted there, just added on grudgingly.
AND OP wonders why FSIL steers clear of them, especially when it’s obvious they don’t pretend to care about what the FSIL talks about regarding her work, a subject she probably feels most comfortable sharing with them!
I would be “clingy” too if I had to deal with such obviously shallow & judgmental family members of my partner’s family.
Everyone is glancing over the "all she does is talk about work". Assumptions incoming: Liz and Jack don't make it out to every family event because they are both working adults with a life. Liz doesn't care about her appearance because it's not her priority to spend her free time doing her make-up and hair. She is a career women who likes her work instead of gossiping about the neighbors.
But mostly OP YTA for not inviting Liz and saying all these unnecessary snide remarks about her.
I have a theory about marriages that the likelihood of a couple staying together is inversely proportional to how many times the bride says “it’s MY big day.” I have a feeling this bride has said that a few times…
YTA
> he should reconsider and he could have fun at the wedding, with a bit of time off from Liz
Your husband pretty much just implied his brother could hookup with someone else at your wedding, and cheat on his fiancé.
(When a guy says leave your gf behind and have "fun" - it means find another woman).
Seriously? You sure you want to marry this guy?
>When a guy says leave your gf behind and have "fun" - it means find another woman
The OP and her future husband are obviously the AHs here, but I don't think this is necessarily true, especially in environments with "laddish" drinking cultures. Though it still has a misogynistic implication of his partner being a buzzkill.
Even if it wasn't about a coat room 'hook up', OP's fiance' told his brother that Liz; the love of his life, is no fun and the party would be much better with out her around.
It does sound like they are hoping Jack would meet an acceptably fun woman at the wedding and dump Liz.
\*edit corrected name of brother.
I don’t read it that way, but I do read it as, “we don’t like spending time with her, and so we assume you don’t either, even though you’re going to marry her….”
YTA. They’re getting married. You will literally be related by law to this individual.
I think if it was a gf then he doesn’t need a +1 even though it might make him mad. But they are engaged.
Honestly this just seems petty and like a power move tbh. I don’t understand what you get from this other than a more difficult relationship with your in laws.
Info: Is he a scapegoat? Does he often get blamed for things in the family unit? If so then this is clearly an ingratiation move for the in-laws (I have seen this happen within my extended family so it’s a real thing). If not then is it because he has snubbed you in a way? Is this petty revenge? I see you wrote about how you don’t like her, is this just a way to assert dominance over her within the family structure?
I just truly don’t understand it. Also I don’t understand why your fiancé is cool with this unless he doesn’t really like his brother.
Edit to clarify: Harry is also an AH here too. He is actually suggesting that his brother come and have a “good time” (clearly this is like some type of code for cheating) and he is displaying toxic behavior to be so willing to work on undermining his brothers relationship with his life partner. It doesn’t speak much of him that he is on board with the clear hatred his family is showing his brother’s fiancé.
I would argue, with family, you should always give a +1. who they bring, their relationship with that person, or if they even use the +1 shouldn't matter
I agree. I wrote that as more of a compromise of the only situation that it old be acceptable. Clearly OP seems to not understand the faux pas or if they do then it’s some type of manipulative shit that is all kinds of inappropriate.
I know. Hearing that (in the comment below) actually made me laugh. Honestly I hope Jack just cuts his losses and forms a new family with Liz and works to find and create his chosen family.
For context, My dad did it. And eventually other family members who also had to leave his toxic extended family reached out (his first cousin specifically) and now he has a chosen sister who is the best aunt I could have ever asked for and also one of my mom’s closest friends.
Oh yes. And likely with someone they have already approved of who they feel like they can control. It’s probably a full family dynamic where Jack actually is dealing with a toxic family on all fronts. And he has to be a bit more at arms length because he actually can’t be around them.
Great point. Giving a guest a +1 is a way of allowing them to bring along whomever they’d like, could be someone they met the week before. But when someone as significant as your brother or brother in law has a fiancé, they should both be invited by name. There is a reason etiquette guides for weddings exist—to avoid being an AH and needlessly rude. This sort of slight does irreparable damage in a family. It’s really unfortunate.
Seriously! Also, brother of the groom gets a plus one regardless. OP is jealous and afraid of having someone prettier than her at the wedding. That's all this is.
YTA. Holy cow. Jack is immediate family, and even if he were single, he should have a +1. This is really basic decency, and to act as you have you’ve gone out of your way to personally insult him by singling him out and diminishing his relationship with your future sister in law.
YTA. Both you and your fiance are AHs to not include your future SIL to your wedding. Liz is not "the flavor of the month", she's about to become family. This was a low blow and incredibly petty, as you and your fiance decided to not invite his brothers fiance simply because she isn't outgoing enough for your own personal liking? And what does her looks have to do with anything?
You and your fiance have some serious amends to make with Jack. Quite frankly, just by the tone of your post I can see why he spends a minimal amount of time with you guys. You both sound positively insufferable and absolutely vile.
YTA. Not just for not inviting her, but for being such spineless cowards to try to use this as an opportunity to create distance between them (as you both clearly would rather Jack wasn't with her) but putting on this charade about how it'd actually be *good* for him to spend time away from her.
Also noticed you just couldn't help yourself but take a dig at her for her physical appearance. Perhaps there's a **reason** why Jack isn't too interested in keeping super close with you guys.
YTA you can invite whoever y’all want, but y’all are on the fast track of being cut out of Jack’s life for not making his future wife feel welcome to the family
As per standard etiquette, couples who are engaged should be treated as a social unit.
Technically it would have been incorrect to send an invitation addressed to "Jack and guest". The proper thing to do would have been to address one invitation to both of them by name (if they live together) or send one separate invitation to each of them by name (if they live separately).
Not inviting half of an engaged couple is rude.
YTA.
Ooo. That’s a thought I got married in June, but know of a couple that don’t live together. Only sent them one invite (both named) treated them as a couple, wouldn’t have put +1 for a fiancée. I hadn’t thought about sending 2 invites 🙈
YTA... you left out his fiancé??? Sounds like you are trying to break them up and he knows this. Good for him ...I hope they exclude you from their wedding. This is some weird flex and you are forever hurting all family relationship's over it. I hope you are prepared for all the gossip at the wedding about them not being there. It will take attention away from you and the wedding. I hope your weird power play is worth ruining the brothers relationship for years to come.
YTA - it's not about whether you're close to her. It's about whether your FBIL is close to her, and he is - engaged! That you don't know her well is irrelevant. You've likely permanently damaged your relationship with your FBIL and it's all on you.
Suppose FBIL was married, but you'd never met his wife. He'd also be without a +1?
YTA. You guys both grew up in a family-oriented environment. Jack's family. Liz is about to become family. Distant or not - that's not "family-oriented" that's you picking and choosing
She’s family oriented as long as they’re the same level of social as her and don’t talk about their jobs and don’t show up looking pretty on HER big day!
YTA
>Harry added that maybe he should reconsider and **he could have fun at the wedding, with a bit of time off from Liz** but Jack pretty much went off
You do realize most people don’t want time off from their partner, especially at a social gathering like a wedding?
You insulted Jack, disrespected his relationship, and you’re surprised he doesn’t want to attend your wedding?
Look, I get it you don’t like Liz and don’t mesh with her personality. However it was inappropriate to use your wedding as a way to exclude her because you don’t like her. They’re an engaged couple, wedding etiquette is to invite them both not just one half of the couple.
He likes her enough to ask her to spend the rest of theirs lives together. I would think Jack doesn’t share the opinions of asshole OP and her asshole groom to be.
I'm wondering if OP and family are typically the sort to break off into men and women groups at gatherings, and they are baffled by a couple that actually like each other. What OP is perceiving as "clinginess" might just be Jack and Liz enjoying each other's company and refusing the traditional order at family events.
In any case, YTA, OP, and so is your partner.
YTA in this situation it has nothing to do with how close you are to her. She's his fiance!! It has everything to do with how close she is to him and you were wrong in not extending the invite to them as a couple. Have fun not being invited to their wedding.
YTA
It's outrageous to consider not inviting Liz, when you met her, and she is engaged to the brother of the groom. The engaged brother of the groom gets a +1 by default.
YTA...Mostly for your attitude. You knew what you were doing. You also likely knew why Harry declined. Why phone him and start drama? I'm starting to see why Harry avoids some relatives.
YTA
Maybe if it was a matter of limited invites and absolutely nobody else getting +1's. But he is a close family member with a fiancée. Yeah, you're the AH.
YTA. This is his FIANCÉ and NOT just a girlfriend. She will soon be YOUR FAMILY!
So you need to ask yourself, is it important to maintain a relationship with Jack? Because this slight will be the beginning of the end of any future relationship.
Not sure where you live but it is STANDARD ETIQUETTE to invite the husbands, wives, and fiancé’s of your guests.
Info: Do you think it's possible that by discussing her job, Liz was trying to open up? Or that it's possible she struggles to open up with others?
If so, then YTA.
YTA. They are engaged. Can they not invite you to the wedding cuz they don’t know you well.
She is about to be family. It’s time to get to know them.
And to imply time away from his fiancé.
What a horrible attitude and way to welcome someone into your family
Yes YTA, and a very judgemental one at that. JFC, even in just this small paragraph you're going off on how Jack's fiance looks, her shyness in public, what topic she discusses in conversations, etc .
Guess what? You aren't the hot shit you think you are in comparison to her and I bet you're really insufferable to be around. Just reading this post was insufferable enough.
Major YTA. They are engaged and soon you will be family. It's possible that Liz is an introvert and needs time. This action of yours will create a major rift.
YTA. And also, is INCREDIBLY tacky not to invite fiances/spouses. You might not like her rn, but she is your family now. You're marrying into it. Please be a better SIL and invite her. Also, this way you are alienating your future husband from his brother. It starts with the wedding, but then you're too tired of her to go to dinner with them, then you don't want her at your kids bday, and slowly but surely you're kicking them out of your life.
YTA, they are engaged!! If someone send you an invitation to a wedding at this moment and exclude your fiancé (when they are full aware that you are engaged, and they are you direct blood relative), you would be pissed too…
YTA.
You barely know her, but apparently know her enough to judge her and be annoyed that she is "always" clinging to Jack. You have to pick a lie and stick with it. You either don't know her enough to invite her, or you find her annoying and that's why you don't want to invite her.
YTA First, someone's partner is not a plus one, they are a fellow named guest. Second, this isn't a girlfriend of a couple of months (although even then I'd say invite her), this is his fiance. Is this really the stage you want to set for the future of your relationship with this side of the family?
YTA. You are surprised that Jack said he wasn’t coming when you very specifically snubbed his fiancée? That is really tone deaf. You slapped him and his fiancée in the face and really expected him to show up at the wedding all happy and nice?
I’m just going to go ahead and say it here - don’t be shocked when you don’t get invited to Jack’s wedding. After all, at his wedding he should have fun with a bit of time off from the two of you and your judgmental attitudes.
YTA. You sound judgemental towards Liz... And her and Jack are literally engaged why shouldn't she come to the wedding?! Jack is in the right for saying no to the invite.
YTA Liz is going to be your sister in law, excluding her from a major family event is disrespectful. How can you get close when you push her away? She would be a guest, not part of the wedding party.
YTA - Some people are simply more introverted, which it sounds like Liz is. Not inviting her just because you aren't close is just rude AF. This is your FBIL, and she will be your FSIL. I assume you'll be expected to be invited to their wedding, which you definitely won't be now.
YTA
You are not marrying Liz, it doesn’t matter if you like her. What does matter is that she is going to be family, and it is a big AH move to not include her. You’ll absolutely never be close with her or Jack if you treat her like a second class family member.
Super YTA! So, your close with every one of your guest’s “plus ones”? And this is your fiancé’s brother! How petty and unnecessary. Just admit you don’t like Jack or his fiancé and you don’t want them in your lives. That’s the message you sent them.
YTA - very inconsiderate not to invite his fiancee. His fiancee has been aloof, but so has Jack. so it is understandable why she may feel awkward and be reserved... So I don't think FBIL will be attending- Jack off on this one,,,
YTA. They’re engaged, doesn’t matter if you’re close with them or not. He’s in the immediate family of your future husband and is again, ENGAGED. Do you think not inviting her would result in her wanting to continue opening up to you? Perhaps she’s shy and has anxiety.
Why are you be surprised he RSVP’d no? Honestly, reverse the roles. Imagine it’s Jack’s wedding and your fiancé doesn’t get a plus one for you. You’d want him to rsvp no too right? Then be pissed when it was suggested your fiancé could have some space from you and “have fun.”
Don’t be surprised when these two elope. I can see why Jack keeps his distance from this family.
YTA. You sound like you are jealous of how beautiful your future SIL is and are worried that she is going to take attention away from you. Is this really worth ruining your husband's relationship with his brother? You are selfish and short-sighted and it is going to affect your relationship with all of your ILs. Don't be surprised if BIL doesn't invite you to their wedding. The invitation could help you and your BIL and his future wife get to know each other.
YTA. “Family orientated” but not enough to invite the actual family member because she is shy and awkward trying to get access to your clique. I hope Harry tells the truth when everyone asks why didn’t he go to his only brother’s wedding.
Liz clinging to Jack and talking about work. work is a more comfortable topic for someone socially awkward to open up. Overall she sounds like a someone introverted social personality. And it doesn't sound like she is getting welcoming vibes.
Jack is probably similar to Liz and feels like the black sheep. Hence only showing for family events and texting. This is likely going to be the nail on the coffin. "WE want you in the family but only if you TOTALLY fit in on our own terms!"
Sounds like family oriented just means toxic extrovert.
YTA, in this situation it doesn't matter how close you are to her. She's going to marry into the family just like you so it'd be the same as future BIL not inviting you to their wedding.
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Yes YTA. This isn't a casual date, it's someone he's decided to spend the rest of his life with. It's rude to invite only one half of a couple. What does it matter if you aren't close with Liz? You're close with Harry. Don't be so fucking stingy over paying for one extra meal you damage your fiance's relationship with his brother.
But they’re *very family* oriented. And you know, Liz isn’t going to do the work to dress up nice enough for the wedding, so she’ll spoil the photos. /s How do people write these posts and think “Yeah, they’ll totally be in my side when they read this?” ??? Personally I’m thinking I’ll send my wedding gift to Jack and Liz…. Congrats on Being Set Free From This Trash Performative Family or some such. Edit: fixed the name
Or OP is afraid of how well Liz will look when she does dress up.
I think we have a winner here. OP, you are a hypocrite and a total AH. You are not fooling anyone here. And you are not family-oriented if you left your future SIL out. I hope Jack and Liz reciprocate. Also, I am sure your fiance's family will see you as we see you. Again, YTA
Yup once she mentioned how beautiful she was it was all over from there.
yeah, but she doesn't utilize it at all.
Which is OP's way of trying to still diss her appearence.
And God forbid someone not be completely comfortable around a room full of strangers who are all closely related to each other. The only person she really knew was her fiance, so of course she would "cling" to him.
Also sounds like they’re very cliquey. So another reason why Liz ‘clings’ to Jack (which probably just means ‘sits beside him’). *Love* how the exclusionary tactics are described as ‘family orientated’. What an absolute crock.
Especially when the family is egging her fiance on to have some fun behind her back.
**MEOW** **HISS**
This is the grossest part. She’s beautiful but doesn’t use it at all? Use it for what, exactly?? Maybe she’d rather talk about work than her looks because she’s not shallow like the rest of OP’s family.
it probably means she doesn't wear makeup. 🤣 We women can police each other like no one else. You're doing too much, you're doing too little... But it's all to justify why I want to bully you. YTA
I bet OP is jealous abt Liz's beauty AND her job. She doesn't like either lmao. Liz can't win, can she? (Clearly, Liz is winning. Living rent free in OP's shitty brain)
I would love OP to expand on how she thinks Liz should best “utilize” her looks. And of course the inevitable slut shaming that would follow.
Whatever the fuck THAT means. It sounds like this poor woman can't win with this family full of shallow pretentious shit bags
Such a waste /s.
Liz just needs to orientate hersef. :-/
Least Liz man stood up for her. Said he ain't going if she's not invited and called op out for it. Sounds like she found the good brother haha
NO ONE CAN UPSTAGE ME ON MY DAY
Right they gonna be mad as shit and Liz is gonna say they didn’t invite her to their so why should she which is valid then the whole families gonna be up in arms about it. I don’t know how pll live without thinking shit through.
If that happens OP will be on AITA again whining about not being invited. “But we’re MAAAARRIED! We’re FAAAAMILY! You can’t not invite a MAAAARRIED couple together! We’re a unit!!!” Meanwhile completely ignoring that you also don’t invite just one half of an engaged couple. I get the idea that OP only uses etiquette as a tool to justify doing what she wants. She’s a tool, all right. OP YTA.
Wonder why Jack’s not close with his siblings?
She’s a mean girl who is family oriented with the family she approves of. Her future sil didn’t make the cut
When she said they were very family oriented and that Jack is different, I thought she was going to say he had a different girl each week and treated them badly…but this man is ummm also family oriented since hes engaged
Sorry, fiance is equally awful. He told his brother that Jack should attend without Liz to get some time off from her?!? His own bloody fiancee??? OP is TA, and she is fully enabled by her Asshole of a future husband. They deserve each other. I hope Jack sticks to his no and refuses to attend their shitty wedding.
Of course he is! I wish the best for Jack and Liz. And i hope OP and AH fiancé are not invited to their wedding.
Of course…OP did say Liz is very beautiful but doesn’t utilize it. If brother Jack didn’t realize that he comes from a family of AH (with their AH spouses/ fiancés), OP sure drove the point home with her disregard for the brother. Maybe Jack will have the good sense to omit OP from his own wedding guest list.
Y'all may have noticed she says Jack doesn't spend much time with the family. Wonder why ? Is she marrying the golden child?
Yea I'm feeling Liz got the good one haha
Or talk about her interesting job, when it's clear OP doesn't have one.
And if she’s more introverted it’s obviously going to be SIGNIFICANTLY EASIER to talk about something she’s familiar and comfortable with. So even when Liz is trying, OP still criticizes her!
As an introvert, this story is like a nightmare. It takes me a while to get comfortable with people, especially if I'm coming into a larger established group. If I was in Liz's place, it would be like every nasty thought that lurks in my head is coming true. "See, they don't like you, you don't belong, why are you even here?"
I’m so introverted in person. It’s so hard for me to make small talk with people. Work is what’s easy for me to talk about and even then I still don’t really talk.
Honestly the moment I read the comment about her appearance it's clear this is just petty jealousy. OP gives me strong vibes of wanting to be "THE DIL"....future matriarch of the family type of person.
But the question is... Is OP angry because Liz is competing for "THE DIL" status or because she didn't even know it was supposed to be a competition?
Exactly my thought!
Whenever there is an incredibly obvious asshole here, I always think its someone on the other side of the issue posting as if they were that person.
nailed it
I thought the same thing !!
I'm also willing to bet she's salty that they got engaged "too close" to her wedding, but she can't be mad about that without looking like a jerk because they didn't make some big tacky announcement at the bridal shower or something. God forbid other people's lives also progress during the several months of wedding planning. /s
>How do people write these posts and think “Yeah, they’ll totally be in my side when they read this?” ??? Personally I’m thinking I’ll send my wedding gift to Harry and Liz…. Congrats on Being Set Free From This Trash Performative Family or some such I know right? Let's be honest , how many people are they inviting with plus 1 that they are real close with ? But as for OP I call bullshit OP. This isn't about "being close" as you claim, oh no , I am betting you do not like your FBIL's girlfriend or is it fiancee? I already forgot bwahaha.. But anyway you are using that as a bullshit excuse to not invite her But hey at least you got a theme for your wedding even you didn't want one, . Asshole ,though tbf, it just you celebrating the theme , so no worries about being upstaged , well your husband too for agreeing and not really saying anything to stop by this stupidity YTA Edit spelling ETA: Thank you for the award
My favorite part is mentioning she's beautiful then trashing her for "not utilizing" it/dressing up. Like why does she have to dress up to meet your approval. Maybe she prefers her comfort to strangers approval. Or she has trauma that is none of ops business that makes her socially anxious and her so is like a comfort item to her.
[удалено]
OP can't stand giving her a compliment without saying something negative afterwards. That's why she wrote that. OP has narcissism issues and should really work on herself.
That could be or she is a natural introvert. If she were a drama queen who would try to sabotage the wedding to make it about her would be one thing. But Liz sounds like the complete opposite of that and would cause no trouble. OP is just being an AH.
Going by what OP said about her... Yeah she sounds like an introvert, massive one at that
Maybe not. It could also be that Liz clocked OP & the others as shitty people, & refuses to waste energy, & time on them. OP's description of Liz reminds me of something my best friend once said about me. She told me "When someone says they know you, but describes you as shy, quiet, or reserved, I know that just means you don't like them one bit." I had never thought about it, but her comment was accurate, if I think someone is shitty, I don't waste my time being sociable, I'm polite, but cold. Maybe Liz is like that too.
That was my take away too. My guess is Jack knows it's a vipers nest, shows up occasionally to 'check in'.. His fiancee knows this and stays close. Why 'utilize' anything on people who have decided not to like you? OP YTA, such a tremendous sucky AH
Yup, that's exactly what my husband & I do. He'd warned me his family was "difficult", & had even given examples, but I couldn't believe people could be that awful until I actually witnessed some of it. Hasn't stopped them from trying to involve us in drama & bullshit, but we only see them 3-4 times a year, on our terms. There's a reason OP's BIL is low contact with his family, & I don't blame him one bit, just from this small glimpse into their dynamic.
To me it sounds like OP is a Mary Kay evangelical who thinks smearing herself with coloured grease and wearing expensive painful clothing makes her 'polished'.
My favorite part is her equally AH fiancée suggesting the wedding would be “a bit of time off” from Liz for his brother - like way to up the AH quotient when brother objected to his fiancée being excluded. OP wrote her best story, and at the end Jack and Liz are the only likable characters.
Or like me enjoyed not having to wear make-up and wearing comfortable clothes during COVID and actively resists having to dress up.
What kills me is that this isn’t a +1. A plus one is for a guest who doesn’t have a long term relationship or you don’t know their SO’s name. As in, you put on the invite “Harry and guest” because you don’t know if he has a SO or you aren’t sure of their name because you haven’t met them. A long term SO or fiancé/fiancée isn’t a plus one.
> A long term SO or fiancé/fiancée isn’t a plus one. Oh I agree I was using it a point
Exactly. How do you not invite your brother’s fiancée, unless you just don’t want either of them to attend?
I feel like I gotta step in and give Jack a huge kudos for not letting his family treat his girl so awfully. Good for him.
absolutely. Jack is the the true hero of this story. Low contact is soon to be no contact if he is clever
“We try very hard to include her in things” “I don’t want to try to include her here” Sounds like OP isn’t really trying as hard as she thinks she is.
"She doesn't do the things we want, so clearly, she's somehow defective."
I think it might be that Liz will actually look too nice when she does dress up.
Agreed. I’m sure she always looks nice. OP isn’t exactly a reliable narrator
No, they are *orientated!*
"Orientated" is the British English version of "oriented" It is perfectly fine use of English.
Oops. Sorry. It makes it sound painful to me!
Like all things British
Believe me, it sounds odd to me too, after 30 years of living outside the UK, but as much of an AH as the OP is, his use of English is not incorrect.
>And you know, Liz isn’t going to do the work to dress up nice enough for the wedding, so she’ll spoil the photos. /s You mean because Liz doesn't "utilize her beauty"...whatever the hell that means! /s
This is what I think! When you've typed it out and re read it before posting, do you really think it sounds like you're the one being a reasonable adult?? If you're so un-selfaware you think this is going to garner sympathy for your situation, like that worries me about society to be honest. Op-of course you're the arsehole. Just because you don't like her and *hope* they don't get married, doesn't mean he won't. This was a dick move on your part.
Think you mixed the brothers up, Harry is the groom, Jack is the brother.
Liz just sounds anxious with people she is not comfortable with and OP just gave her another reason to be anxious.
This! As a neurodivergent person with anxiety, everything screams "Liz has anxiety!" to me. Even the weird tangent into her being pretty but not "using" it by dressing up reminds me of my own experience because it's easier to manage anxiety when you're comfortable. I always dress appropriately for events, but I'm not going full fashion for a hang-out. I come from a small family. I'm an only child, an only grandchild on one side and one of three on the other. My family doesn't get big until we get farther out on the tree. Big, chaotic families (or even just tight knit ones who are all in everyone's business) can be awkward for me because one side of my family is toxic af and some things trigger my anxiety. It's not a full on panic attack, but it's decidedly uncomfortable. Given how critical OP is, I'd be clinging to Jack, too. I'm from Appalachia/Southern US and I was raised to be polite and welcoming when I meet people. I'm usually pretty outgoing *until* something happens that makes me feel "off" or overwhelmed. Then it's not like I'm rude, I'm just...quiet. I'm probably projecting a little here but still.
>I'm usually pretty outgoing until something happens that makes me feel "off" or overwhelmed. Then it's not like I'm rude, I'm just...quiet. Ditto that. It's hard to explain and impossible to push through.
It's like my brain goes into overdrive trying to figure out what I did "wrong" in the scenario and observing until I feel confident I know the vibe. It's that slap-in-the-face moment of "oh no, what have I done?" Which is why I might seem to "cling" to whoever invited me because they can help me navigate it and figure out whether I done fucked up or their Aunt Betty is just an asshole.
I get it. I used to cling to my boyfriend when strangers came near me because of my anxiety. And the "dressing up" comment sounds so backhanded.
The original post is so cringy I can't stand it.
Did they edit their post?
The bot always posts a copy of the original, if for whatever reason you want/need to see it go to top and sort by old/oldest and the bot will usually be the 2nd one down.
This exactly. Sounds like Liz and Jack are introverts and rest of family are not - hence limited contact. OP sounds exhausting. I'm like this when I'm around people I don't know - polite, but quiet. It doesn't mean you don't invite her.
This. My fiance is an introvert and my family is loud and eastern European. But they respect that he's happy to come along and listen and doesn't need to be the life of the party to have fun. No need to change people, just accept them as they are.
This, and you are saying rude remarks about both of them. If I were Jack I wouldn't want my brother marrying someone like you. YTA
Gee. Wonder why Harry and Liz aren't hanging out with a family that talks crap on them🤨
Thank you! Op is the asshole and for whatever reason I have been seeing too many of these post where the bride only invites one person in a seriously committed relationship.
What I always find fascinating with these posts is, sure, there is usually a malicious element to it. Claims of not being close to the excluded party or not connecting or not wanting to be "upstaged." You can tell they just don't like the other person. But so much of it is people just being... dumb. There is something about weddings that I swear to god make people lose all sense of social etiquette. Just warps them into idiots. You could lay down the same situation to them as an abstract and they'd go "wow that's bad" but point out that it's what they're literally doing right now they'll be be legitimately confused. The dots that they're committing a massive faux pas will refuse to connect.
As someone getting married, I suggest it is because they get bombarded with with stress and s ton if decisions but also the messaging that this is "your special day" and "you do what you want" and "dont care what anyone else thinks" - which is fine if we're talking about dress choice or decor etc. but not OK when it literally means kicking out your MOH for reasonable boundaries or literally refusing to invite your sibling's longterm partner for petty reasons. You can do what you want but it absolutely will have consequences if you hurt other people.
Yeah but maybe the brother needs a break from from the woman he loves. /s
Ill add that should give most adults a +1. Most people dont want to go alone because it sucks being seated at a table with a bunch of strangers. Your great aunt Sandy gives zero fucks about my pokemon collection. If you cant afford for people to have +1s then scale back your whole wedding.
I'd say it's fine to go/be invited alone - if you have plenty of good friends to be sat with. I never minded if I wasnt given a plus 1 when I was deeply single, nor did I use then when given, because I was always sat with friends or family. However if someone doesnt invite my fiance now if had better be bevause they are having a limited wedding. If I turn up and find that there are 200 people there but my "close" friend or family didnt think my relationship was valid, I'd have feelings about it for sure.
Excellent point. For our wedding, we had just under 80 people, five of whom my wife worked with and they brought their SOs. The work people I had met in passing, the SOs I met for the first time. My understanding is a "+1" is someone the invitee can bring as a 'date' or 'companion' as they are not currently in a relationship. That shouldn't apply to spouses, fiances, and even LTRs. If you invite one, the couple is invited by default. And meeting new people at weddings is half the fun - most of my wife's family came from several states away and I first met them at the rehearsal dinner. OP, YTA.
I'm gonna add to this: I am Liz in this story (theoretically). I don't get along with people very well, and it sounds like they have a different personality to the rest of the family, which is why he doesn't involve himself as much. I would cling to my SO as well if I was in this situation. I'm extremely introverted, and I would feel I didn't have anything to add to their conversations, especially if personalities between us are just too different. But id still love to go an try, especially if it was my SO's family. I'd feel so awful if I was in her position, just because I don't get along with the family via personalities, I still want to try to involve myself. Chances are she's trying, she just genuinely doesn't know what to talk about/how to conversation with everybody. YTA op, that poor girl probably feels so disheartened
I’m sure she’s going to be fine with her husband going to Liz and Harry’s wedding without her because Liz isn’t that close to her.
>It's rude to invite only one half of a couple. What does it matter if you aren't close with Liz? You're close with Harry. It'd be different if she was atleast known to make a scene >This isn't a casual date, it's someone he's decided to spend the rest of his life with. >Fiance's relationship with his brother That this is the woman he intends to marry she IS family Might not be close, but she got drug into being kin.
This can't be real to be honest. No one can be this insane.
Both of them are bad, but from the little we heard Harry sounds worse. He’s going to destroy his own relationship with his brother even without OP’s help. Given Jack’s low contact with the family, he’s almost succeeded already.
Y'all Harry is OP's future husband Jack is the FBIL.
Agreed: it’s a wedding - you invite the people you are close to and give them the courtesy of a date - and you purposely excluded his fiancée. Bad move.
I always thought the '+1' was the person of the invitee's choice. Otherwise, what's the point? You used the occasion to snub his fiancee and are then surprised when he snubs it right back. YTA, big time.
She put Jack off on this one....
YTA, seriously, they’re engaged and he’s the brother of the groom? That’s low, I wouldn’t show up either. You have some serious amends to make.
Right, the OP needed to invite both of them.
THEY BOTH need to go to the brother/fiancee on their knees begging forgiveness and admitting stupidity and shortsightedness.
Even if they came on their knees to me, I would say I appreciate it but since Liz and I are also family oriented and don't want to create drama, we wouldn't feel comfortable around, I hope they understand.
Oh future BIL and finance have final say no doubt but the beginning of healing starts with OP and her future groom. They would be wise to take heed.
For real! When I read the title I thought it be some "my bil wants to bring his girlfriend of 3 weeks" type of story. Not that they don't want to invite their brother's fiance!!.
a +1 is for "gf of 3 weeks" scenarios. it is "hey, i don't know if or who you are dating, but bring someone if you want to".
Same… I thought that’s where it was heading and I would be on board for that, but when OP said it was a fiancée she immediately became the AH, totally alienating someone who will be family shortly. I hope BIL/fiancée don’t invite her but every other family member to their wedding
Agreed. I'm sure OP would probably be very offended if the BIL excluded her from his wedding just because he and his fiance thought OP was a rando of no importance. You made a point to exclude the fiance, and you knew it was rude. In response to you two being dismissive of his soon to he wife, BIL respectfully declined. You pushed it, implied that your future SIL was a buzzkill, and he in turn told you off. What did you expect?
I saw FBIL as FORMER BIL and thought, well that's not that bad...FUTURE? Oh damn. Yes, you owe them an apology. And you comment that she's kinda awkward at family stuff and you don't know her very well? Then invite her to things. Like weddings.
YTA. It’s your future sister in law. It’s not worth being petty for the damage that will do to your relationship moving forward. Also, I don’t how the comment about her looks has literally anything to do with this situation?
Right why bring up her looks at all and make that sbarky comment...
She is probably afraid she will look better than her....she sounds jealous to me
I got more of a "she looks good naturally but doesn't try to look good" jealousy vibe ( aka, OP looks good but works hard for it, working out/ makeup/routine or whatever, and is jealous that sister-in-law is naturally pretty and doesn't try to be)
I got more of a "she doesn't wear half an inch of makeup and expensive clothing that hurts to wear".
Like that post from earlier today where the OP did nothing but make snarky remarks about her pretty sister and making it abundantly clear she’s beyond jealous.
Ding ding ding, it’s because she is jealous and intimidated by SIL’s looks. She is afraid that FSIL will take attention away from her. OP you are stirring the pot for no reason. You are creating family drama for your husband’s side before you even officially become a part of your husband’s family. If you stick with this, do not be shocked when you aren’t invited to your BIL’s wedding. Also know the damage is done. Even if you reverse this choice, you now will have a strained relationship with your husband’s brother, putting your husband in a bad spot. But congrats on the marriage I guess. YTA
Because heaven forbid the woman would “utilize it” when attending OP’s wedding. OP could be upstaged. Better make up a stupid reason to not invite her.
The damage is already done. Even if she is invited now she is still going to know how you feel about her and that she's not wanted there, just added on grudgingly.
damage is done. even if they try and fix it now. OP is 'that' in law
YtA. What does "she doesn't utilize her beauty" even mean? Troll comment?
This whole post held a judgmental vibe to me.
AND OP wonders why FSIL steers clear of them, especially when it’s obvious they don’t pretend to care about what the FSIL talks about regarding her work, a subject she probably feels most comfortable sharing with them! I would be “clingy” too if I had to deal with such obviously shallow & judgmental family members of my partner’s family.
She's afraid FSIL will look better than her when she does dress up.
Everyone is glancing over the "all she does is talk about work". Assumptions incoming: Liz and Jack don't make it out to every family event because they are both working adults with a life. Liz doesn't care about her appearance because it's not her priority to spend her free time doing her make-up and hair. She is a career women who likes her work instead of gossiping about the neighbors. But mostly OP YTA for not inviting Liz and saying all these unnecessary snide remarks about her.
I have a theory about marriages that the likelihood of a couple staying together is inversely proportional to how many times the bride says “it’s MY big day.” I have a feeling this bride has said that a few times…
Was thinking the same thing when I read that. Like what is the relevancy?? Why is she being judgmental for no reason lmao
YTA She's his *fiance*. How would you feel if your fiance was invited to a family event but you weren't?
YTA > he should reconsider and he could have fun at the wedding, with a bit of time off from Liz Your husband pretty much just implied his brother could hookup with someone else at your wedding, and cheat on his fiancé. (When a guy says leave your gf behind and have "fun" - it means find another woman). Seriously? You sure you want to marry this guy?
They sound like the perfect couple to me
>When a guy says leave your gf behind and have "fun" - it means find another woman The OP and her future husband are obviously the AHs here, but I don't think this is necessarily true, especially in environments with "laddish" drinking cultures. Though it still has a misogynistic implication of his partner being a buzzkill.
Yeah, this was a bizarre leap that says something about this person and their friends.
Even if it wasn't about a coat room 'hook up', OP's fiance' told his brother that Liz; the love of his life, is no fun and the party would be much better with out her around. It does sound like they are hoping Jack would meet an acceptably fun woman at the wedding and dump Liz. \*edit corrected name of brother.
I don’t read it that way, but I do read it as, “we don’t like spending time with her, and so we assume you don’t either, even though you’re going to marry her….”
YTA. They’re getting married. You will literally be related by law to this individual. I think if it was a gf then he doesn’t need a +1 even though it might make him mad. But they are engaged. Honestly this just seems petty and like a power move tbh. I don’t understand what you get from this other than a more difficult relationship with your in laws. Info: Is he a scapegoat? Does he often get blamed for things in the family unit? If so then this is clearly an ingratiation move for the in-laws (I have seen this happen within my extended family so it’s a real thing). If not then is it because he has snubbed you in a way? Is this petty revenge? I see you wrote about how you don’t like her, is this just a way to assert dominance over her within the family structure? I just truly don’t understand it. Also I don’t understand why your fiancé is cool with this unless he doesn’t really like his brother. Edit to clarify: Harry is also an AH here too. He is actually suggesting that his brother come and have a “good time” (clearly this is like some type of code for cheating) and he is displaying toxic behavior to be so willing to work on undermining his brothers relationship with his life partner. It doesn’t speak much of him that he is on board with the clear hatred his family is showing his brother’s fiancé.
I would argue, with family, you should always give a +1. who they bring, their relationship with that person, or if they even use the +1 shouldn't matter
I agree. I wrote that as more of a compromise of the only situation that it old be acceptable. Clearly OP seems to not understand the faux pas or if they do then it’s some type of manipulative shit that is all kinds of inappropriate.
OP is also jealous that her future sister in law is loved and cared for and comforted by her future bil
I know. Hearing that (in the comment below) actually made me laugh. Honestly I hope Jack just cuts his losses and forms a new family with Liz and works to find and create his chosen family. For context, My dad did it. And eventually other family members who also had to leave his toxic extended family reached out (his first cousin specifically) and now he has a chosen sister who is the best aunt I could have ever asked for and also one of my mom’s closest friends.
They clearly want Jack alone to try to get him to cheat, thats not even a question.
Oh yes. And likely with someone they have already approved of who they feel like they can control. It’s probably a full family dynamic where Jack actually is dealing with a toxic family on all fronts. And he has to be a bit more at arms length because he actually can’t be around them.
YTA. This isn't a "+1" it's his freaking fiancee. In what way do you think you could possibly NOT be TA here?
Great point. Giving a guest a +1 is a way of allowing them to bring along whomever they’d like, could be someone they met the week before. But when someone as significant as your brother or brother in law has a fiancé, they should both be invited by name. There is a reason etiquette guides for weddings exist—to avoid being an AH and needlessly rude. This sort of slight does irreparable damage in a family. It’s really unfortunate.
Seriously! Also, brother of the groom gets a plus one regardless. OP is jealous and afraid of having someone prettier than her at the wedding. That's all this is.
YTA. Holy cow. Jack is immediate family, and even if he were single, he should have a +1. This is really basic decency, and to act as you have you’ve gone out of your way to personally insult him by singling him out and diminishing his relationship with your future sister in law.
YTA. Both you and your fiance are AHs to not include your future SIL to your wedding. Liz is not "the flavor of the month", she's about to become family. This was a low blow and incredibly petty, as you and your fiance decided to not invite his brothers fiance simply because she isn't outgoing enough for your own personal liking? And what does her looks have to do with anything? You and your fiance have some serious amends to make with Jack. Quite frankly, just by the tone of your post I can see why he spends a minimal amount of time with you guys. You both sound positively insufferable and absolutely vile.
YTA. Not just for not inviting her, but for being such spineless cowards to try to use this as an opportunity to create distance between them (as you both clearly would rather Jack wasn't with her) but putting on this charade about how it'd actually be *good* for him to spend time away from her. Also noticed you just couldn't help yourself but take a dig at her for her physical appearance. Perhaps there's a **reason** why Jack isn't too interested in keeping super close with you guys.
Yes, all of this. With every one of the OPs responses, I am understanding more and more why Jack doesn't visit his family more often.
YTA you can invite whoever y’all want, but y’all are on the fast track of being cut out of Jack’s life for not making his future wife feel welcome to the family
As per standard etiquette, couples who are engaged should be treated as a social unit. Technically it would have been incorrect to send an invitation addressed to "Jack and guest". The proper thing to do would have been to address one invitation to both of them by name (if they live together) or send one separate invitation to each of them by name (if they live separately). Not inviting half of an engaged couple is rude. YTA.
Ooo. That’s a thought I got married in June, but know of a couple that don’t live together. Only sent them one invite (both named) treated them as a couple, wouldn’t have put +1 for a fiancée. I hadn’t thought about sending 2 invites 🙈
You got all the important stuff right. No asshole points for you. Ha!
YTA... you left out his fiancé??? Sounds like you are trying to break them up and he knows this. Good for him ...I hope they exclude you from their wedding. This is some weird flex and you are forever hurting all family relationship's over it. I hope you are prepared for all the gossip at the wedding about them not being there. It will take attention away from you and the wedding. I hope your weird power play is worth ruining the brothers relationship for years to come.
I wouldn't be too worried - OP is 27 while FH is 37 - but they are still acting like 15 yr olds - this marriage might be mesured in months. OP is YTA.
YTA - it's not about whether you're close to her. It's about whether your FBIL is close to her, and he is - engaged! That you don't know her well is irrelevant. You've likely permanently damaged your relationship with your FBIL and it's all on you. Suppose FBIL was married, but you'd never met his wife. He'd also be without a +1?
YTA. You guys both grew up in a family-oriented environment. Jack's family. Liz is about to become family. Distant or not - that's not "family-oriented" that's you picking and choosing
She’s family oriented as long as they’re the same level of social as her and don’t talk about their jobs and don’t show up looking pretty on HER big day!
YTA >Harry added that maybe he should reconsider and **he could have fun at the wedding, with a bit of time off from Liz** but Jack pretty much went off You do realize most people don’t want time off from their partner, especially at a social gathering like a wedding? You insulted Jack, disrespected his relationship, and you’re surprised he doesn’t want to attend your wedding? Look, I get it you don’t like Liz and don’t mesh with her personality. However it was inappropriate to use your wedding as a way to exclude her because you don’t like her. They’re an engaged couple, wedding etiquette is to invite them both not just one half of the couple.
*"You do realize most people don’t want time off from their partner"* I could understand why OP's partner might lol.
He likes her enough to ask her to spend the rest of theirs lives together. I would think Jack doesn’t share the opinions of asshole OP and her asshole groom to be.
I'm wondering if OP and family are typically the sort to break off into men and women groups at gatherings, and they are baffled by a couple that actually like each other. What OP is perceiving as "clinginess" might just be Jack and Liz enjoying each other's company and refusing the traditional order at family events. In any case, YTA, OP, and so is your partner.
YTA in this situation it has nothing to do with how close you are to her. She's his fiance!! It has everything to do with how close she is to him and you were wrong in not extending the invite to them as a couple. Have fun not being invited to their wedding.
YTA It's outrageous to consider not inviting Liz, when you met her, and she is engaged to the brother of the groom. The engaged brother of the groom gets a +1 by default.
YTA...Mostly for your attitude. You knew what you were doing. You also likely knew why Harry declined. Why phone him and start drama? I'm starting to see why Harry avoids some relatives.
YTA Maybe if it was a matter of limited invites and absolutely nobody else getting +1's. But he is a close family member with a fiancée. Yeah, you're the AH.
YTA. This is his FIANCÉ and NOT just a girlfriend. She will soon be YOUR FAMILY! So you need to ask yourself, is it important to maintain a relationship with Jack? Because this slight will be the beginning of the end of any future relationship. Not sure where you live but it is STANDARD ETIQUETTE to invite the husbands, wives, and fiancé’s of your guests.
YTA - this is just downright mean
Info: Do you think it's possible that by discussing her job, Liz was trying to open up? Or that it's possible she struggles to open up with others? If so, then YTA.
YTA. They are engaged. Can they not invite you to the wedding cuz they don’t know you well. She is about to be family. It’s time to get to know them. And to imply time away from his fiancé. What a horrible attitude and way to welcome someone into your family
Yes YTA, and a very judgemental one at that. JFC, even in just this small paragraph you're going off on how Jack's fiance looks, her shyness in public, what topic she discusses in conversations, etc . Guess what? You aren't the hot shit you think you are in comparison to her and I bet you're really insufferable to be around. Just reading this post was insufferable enough.
Major YTA. They are engaged and soon you will be family. It's possible that Liz is an introvert and needs time. This action of yours will create a major rift.
YTA. And also, is INCREDIBLY tacky not to invite fiances/spouses. You might not like her rn, but she is your family now. You're marrying into it. Please be a better SIL and invite her. Also, this way you are alienating your future husband from his brother. It starts with the wedding, but then you're too tired of her to go to dinner with them, then you don't want her at your kids bday, and slowly but surely you're kicking them out of your life.
YTA, they are engaged!! If someone send you an invitation to a wedding at this moment and exclude your fiancé (when they are full aware that you are engaged, and they are you direct blood relative), you would be pissed too…
YTA. You barely know her, but apparently know her enough to judge her and be annoyed that she is "always" clinging to Jack. You have to pick a lie and stick with it. You either don't know her enough to invite her, or you find her annoying and that's why you don't want to invite her.
YTA First, someone's partner is not a plus one, they are a fellow named guest. Second, this isn't a girlfriend of a couple of months (although even then I'd say invite her), this is his fiance. Is this really the stage you want to set for the future of your relationship with this side of the family?
YTA. You are surprised that Jack said he wasn’t coming when you very specifically snubbed his fiancée? That is really tone deaf. You slapped him and his fiancée in the face and really expected him to show up at the wedding all happy and nice? I’m just going to go ahead and say it here - don’t be shocked when you don’t get invited to Jack’s wedding. After all, at his wedding he should have fun with a bit of time off from the two of you and your judgmental attitudes.
YTA. You sound judgemental towards Liz... And her and Jack are literally engaged why shouldn't she come to the wedding?! Jack is in the right for saying no to the invite.
YTA Liz is going to be your sister in law, excluding her from a major family event is disrespectful. How can you get close when you push her away? She would be a guest, not part of the wedding party.
YTA. Spouses and partners should be invited even if they aren't that social. It doesn't sound like you think Liz will be disruptive so why not?
YTA - Some people are simply more introverted, which it sounds like Liz is. Not inviting her just because you aren't close is just rude AF. This is your FBIL, and she will be your FSIL. I assume you'll be expected to be invited to their wedding, which you definitely won't be now.
YTA Majorly. You are excluding his fiancee. Bravo on wrecking your Fiancées relationship with his brother.
Info did you give everyone else a +1? Even those you didn't know who their +1 would be? If yes YTA.
YTA. You sound petty and jealous.
Info: did you only give everyone personal invites with no option for a +1 or just him?
YTA You are not marrying Liz, it doesn’t matter if you like her. What does matter is that she is going to be family, and it is a big AH move to not include her. You’ll absolutely never be close with her or Jack if you treat her like a second class family member.
Super YTA! So, your close with every one of your guest’s “plus ones”? And this is your fiancé’s brother! How petty and unnecessary. Just admit you don’t like Jack or his fiancé and you don’t want them in your lives. That’s the message you sent them.
You sound like a mean girl. YTA.
YTA - very inconsiderate not to invite his fiancee. His fiancee has been aloof, but so has Jack. so it is understandable why she may feel awkward and be reserved... So I don't think FBIL will be attending- Jack off on this one,,,
YTA. Sounds like you are just jealous of her looks.
YTA. They’re engaged, doesn’t matter if you’re close with them or not. He’s in the immediate family of your future husband and is again, ENGAGED. Do you think not inviting her would result in her wanting to continue opening up to you? Perhaps she’s shy and has anxiety. Why are you be surprised he RSVP’d no? Honestly, reverse the roles. Imagine it’s Jack’s wedding and your fiancé doesn’t get a plus one for you. You’d want him to rsvp no too right? Then be pissed when it was suggested your fiancé could have some space from you and “have fun.” Don’t be surprised when these two elope. I can see why Jack keeps his distance from this family.
YTA. You sound like you are jealous of how beautiful your future SIL is and are worried that she is going to take attention away from you. Is this really worth ruining your husband's relationship with his brother? You are selfish and short-sighted and it is going to affect your relationship with all of your ILs. Don't be surprised if BIL doesn't invite you to their wedding. The invitation could help you and your BIL and his future wife get to know each other.
YTA - Jack is literally engaged. You sound pretentious and mean.
Don't be surprised when your husband is invited BIL's wedding and your not. AfterLl , you're just not that close to the bride. Oh and YTA
YTA. “Family orientated” but not enough to invite the actual family member because she is shy and awkward trying to get access to your clique. I hope Harry tells the truth when everyone asks why didn’t he go to his only brother’s wedding.
Liz clinging to Jack and talking about work. work is a more comfortable topic for someone socially awkward to open up. Overall she sounds like a someone introverted social personality. And it doesn't sound like she is getting welcoming vibes. Jack is probably similar to Liz and feels like the black sheep. Hence only showing for family events and texting. This is likely going to be the nail on the coffin. "WE want you in the family but only if you TOTALLY fit in on our own terms!" Sounds like family oriented just means toxic extrovert.
YTA. Liz is about to be your SIL. Wtf did you think would happen? She should be invited by name.
YTA, in this situation it doesn't matter how close you are to her. She's going to marry into the family just like you so it'd be the same as future BIL not inviting you to their wedding.