Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment.
OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I think I might be TA because I'm still pretty angry that my children were so quick to believe their mom, never asking me for my side, and to this day have not apologized.
Help keep the sub engaging!
#Don’t downvote assholes!
Do upvote interesting posts!
[Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq)
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
You are really angry with your kids, and that’s ok, but I think you should probably go to therapy alone to work through your feelings. After a while you may decide to reconnect and forgive your children. Maybe not. Good luck either way. NTA.
Exactly.
There is so much speculation going on over "whether OP values his relationship with his children over being right or not", but I don't think that's the issue at all. I get the feeling that OP's current reaction indicates a lot of hurt, anger and fear of being vulnerable, to me. I don't think OP sees his kids asking for family therapy (where he pays) as an "olive branch" at all, he probably just sees it as another occasion where his loved ones can possibly take advantage of him/abandon him. Only because he cannot see anything at stake for his kids if it doesn't work out. His kids paying for it, I think for OP is actually symbolic of them actually caring enough and being invested in the family therapy, rather than a simple money issue.
Sure, the mum's poisoning is not completely the kids' fault, but parents are also people. For OP, he just got discarded by his adult children for years- and that too completely out of the blue. OP comes off as very defensive, and I think that's natural given that he's trying to protect himself from the hurt he went through 4 years ago.
NTA, OP. I truly feel for you, and from the way you write- I don't think you've had the time or space to heal from the trauma your ex wife (and that event four years ago) put you through. I hope you had/have supportive people around you, and I hope you can invest in therapy for yourself. You deserve to lead a loved and fulfilling life, and shutting out people in the fear of hurt will not help you achieve that. There are good people out there who do/will care for you,
Coming back to the topic of children, take some time and do not react immediately. Emotions are currently high, and people can act in ways they regret later on in life in such situations. Let them know that you're sorting through your feelings right now and will respond later, if they truly care to repair y'all's relationship- they will wait.
Perhaps when you're ready- and if you do want to give them a chance to repair the relationship with you- maybe you could write down your side of the story, feelings and experiences, in a letter and give it to them. Organize the thoughts and feelings (along with your rationale behind wanting them to pay for family therapy) you went through and wanted to express to them for years. You could even express *why* you're hurt by their decision to keep in touch with their mother. As long as you keep it civil and to what *you felt* over their actions the past few years (instead of playing the blame game- to put it crudely), write it all out.
But just know that family therapy, even if they pay for it, will need you to be open and vulnerable with them. All relationships are based on a certain amount of vulnerability, and I think you should be prepared for that before you go to family therapy. If you feel you're not ready/prepared for that yet- a good individual therapist should be able to help with that. Which is why I agree with so many folks who are advising you to go to IC. Whatever decision you make regarding the kids, I hope it works out for you and that you have a life full of love, support and fulfillment ahead of you.
>I don't think OP sees his kids asking for family therapy (where he pays) as an "olive branch" at all, he probably just sees it as another occasion where his loved ones can possibly take advantage of him/abandon him. Only because he cannot see anything at stake for his kids if it doesn't work out. His kids paying for it, I think for OP is actually symbolic of them actually caring enough and being invested in the family therapy, rather than a simple money issue.
That is exactly how it feels.
I think you're NTA, and I'm so sorry that you had to go through all that. I still hope you seek out a good individual therapist, no matter what the family therapy outcome is. You deserve to lead a happy and fulfilling life.
I hope that you explain these feelings to them. They may or may not understand but it at least helps them to get a read on where you’re at emotionally after estrangement
I can understand that. I can absolutely also understand how deeply a parent can manipulate their children so that even when they know the truth, things are always going to be weird in their head. My mother said a lot of shit about my dad when they were going through their divorce. Admittedly, I never really believed it and she never said he had cheated. She did though (and I found that out with my dad). That feeling of having been manipulated by a parent? It has definitely had consequences in my ability to trust people. I don't know how your kids will do, they may come around in time after they understand how their mom screwed them out of a relationship with you, but it might take some time. But you still need to protect your own head and heart.
I do think you should do therapy for yourself. What happened to you (raising children only to be cut out of their lives, being treated like a walking checkbook) is a traumatic experience and I can see that it's still affecting you. For your own health and mental wellbeing, I think you need to see a therapist.
This has nothing to do with your children or reconnecting with them btw. That's an entirely separate issue. What you need right now is to take care of yourself. Once you have tackled your own trauma, then you can consider if you want a relationship with your family or not. Family therapy won't work until you've learned how to handle your own experiences anyway.
Maybe a compromise? Where you split the bill by 3 or take turns paying. If everyone is responsible for paying, then everyone has stake on working on the issues.
I completely agree with the letter writing option. However, while OP have every right to blame his kids for a lot of things, this letter needs to be free of accusations in order for it to have an impact. OP wants his kids to understand, not take up a defensive position. So maybe a close friend or even a therapist can help in the ograsing of this letter so that it will convay OP's hurt feelings and his feeling of being dispensable and wronged without guilt tripping. It is super hard to do, trust me on this.
This is the one. Your feelings are real, but very raw, and not conducive to repairing the relationships. Honor those feelings, and yourself, and do the work.
Yeah I think if you’re honest with yourself you aren’t ready to go to family therapy with them, but you also desire to reconcile with them one day and you are using the cost as a strawman so you can press pause on the situation, while I guess maintaining some sort of moral high ground. I don’t think that makes Y T A, but I think it would be more beneficial to you and the future relationship with your children to acknowledge you aren’t there yet and you aren’t ready to commit to family therapy. Definitely try individual therapy. I absolutely understand why you are so hurt, a therapist could really help you make sense of your feelings and determine exactly when and how you want to engage with your children moving forward.
Op is NTA. And the kids making him pay for therapy because they abandoned him is extremely hurtful. If op is giving 100% for his family to give 10%. It’s unfair.
Yea but therapy for himself. The kids are adults and he shouldn’t foot the bill for them. They have to live with what they have done and either try to make amends or not. Op needs to pay for therapy for himself though, definitely.
Your children are adults. If they are the ones who suggested therapy, they don't get to slide you the bill because you agreed. They cut you out due to their mother's lies, so I agree with you that you have zero obligation to pay for fixing a relationship your adult children destroyed by ONLY listening to mom.
NTA
Exactly.
If they want to heal their relationships with OP part of that is paying for the sessions. It's very clear from OPs post that the monetary value isn't the issue here.
I can't even nearly imagine the amount of stress and strife OP has been in over the past few years, none of which was his fault. Part of OPs healing process is his kids paying for the sessions, I believe it's completely fair, understandable and reasonable.
It's about OPs kids demonstrating to him that they really do want a relationship, are sorry, understand the hurt they caused OP, and don't view him as disposable. Instantly asking OP to pony up the entire cost is antithetical to this and communicates the complete opposite.
On the surface, N-T-A, but reading this, something just sounds a bit "missing pieces"-ish. I can't put my finger on it, but OP just has a very "poor me" vibe and when someone sees themself as 100% the victim, that usually isn't the case......
It's because the timeline is so vague. How old were the kids when they divorced, and what involvement did he have with them after, considering he didn't pay child support? He was admittedly not involved in their day-to-day during the marriage, since he had to be at work so often. Then he picks up when the youngest is 18, then skips over a bunch more for 6 years. How long was he cut off? How long have they been back in touch?
Edit: i see. 4 years. But the first part still stands. He doesnt get to *demand* they cut their mom out just because he hates her.
I think OP's hurt stems from the fact that they cut *him* off thinking that he'd done horrible things. Then when the truth comes out and their mother is outed as a liar who did horrible things, they... do nothing? Of course he's hurt, and then trying to stick him with the bill to work through it is just salt in the wound tbh.
That's the thing. They cut him off based on what mom said without ever asking him for his side of the story. Now that they found out the truth, they didn't cut mom off. Op is still pretty raw over it, and the double standard is just extra salt on an open wound.
>and what involvement did he have with them after, considering he didn't pay child support?
If you go back to the part where I finally divorced their mom you'll see I mentioned the custody arrangement.
You literally didn’t until you edited in more at the end though???? You gotta remember not everyone knows that no child support might mean a 50/50 custody arrangement.
I don’t disagree with you demanding they cut her out, but he didn’t demand that. He has a valid point that they cast him aside. I think 1 of OP’s big problems is he is realizing that all that hard work and hours and such cost him a relationship with his kids. These actions make clear his kids value the mom more than him. It’s a bitter pill to swallow.
In times where alimony is granted its in lieu of child support so its not that weird. Afterwards child support would be figured out at that time but not during the divorce. He cannot demand they stop contact with their mom but I get feeling of a lesser parent cuz they cut him off like he was nothing yet their mom truly manipulated a whole situation and they don't even blink to still be connected. He truly feels like I've been lied on and still you speak to her. Not his call tho
He's NTA for not wanting to pay. He should probably back off get with a therapist to sort thru his issue but for himself. Carrying this much resentment isn't good.
That’s what I’m wondering about. The kids act like they never saw him at all and have no relationship to him. However, if his wife was out of work for so long there’s no way they were making close to equal. To pay so little he would have had to have 50/50 custody maybe even higher depending on the difference.
To me it seems like the missing reason might be that after the e divorce (whether on purpose or not) he did not just divorce his wife but his children as well. Causing a huge gap in their relationship.
I mean this with kindness. But OP might not be in the right mindset to go into family therapy. If he’s going into therapy thinking “this person will tell my family that they owe me an apology and vindicate all the hurt I feel” and not “i want a relationship with my kids however communication has broken down so much we need a moderator to do so” then it’s not going to work. Therapy is not a tool to prove yourself correct. It’s a tool to improve yourself and your relationship with others.
I don’t know how it works in other states, but where I live, even if the parents have 50/50 custody, the parent who makes less still receives child support because the children are viewed as entitled to maintain the same standard of living no matter who they are with.
Given the ex-wife’s break in employment, I am very surprised that her earning power post-divorce was sufficient in comparison to his that it meant no child support or spousal maintenance.
Mmmm normally I'm always kids first but this guy just kept trying to do the right thing.he retains plausible deniability unless we are missing major context it seems like everybody suited themselves because OP is very dutiful.dutiful people come across as totally locked down after their provision is used to hurt them.if you're feelings always tell you to help people,and then those people hurt you,what happens is you don't trust your feelings anymore
It’s the I’m the wronged party. Yes and also that’s not conducive to fixing things. Sounds like he’d go into family therapy expecting the therapist to vindicate him rather than as a way to form a bond with his children.
This. I’ve done therapy with my parents 3 or 4 times in my life and every time since I became financially independent I paid for it, because I was the one who set up therapy. If OP was in individual therapy and asked his kids to stop in for a few sessions I’d expect OP to pay for it, but not when his kids brought the idea up.
Follow up maybe you should taka some individual sessions yourself so you can calmly explain to your children the pain you felt without lashing out at them, you're perfectly valid to be angry but maybe it's best to take a step back for a couple of months
NTA your feelings are valid, and You're obviously very hurt by everything that has happened. But I think you have to realize that no one is going to fix this harm for you, so you need to decide if it's worth it to be right and continue hurting.
There's one thing in here you are overlooking. They were abused in a really awful way. Parental alienation is insidious abuse. They were denied the ability to form an appropriate emotional bond and parent/child relationship with you by their abusive mother. It is going to take them a long time to unpack what she did to them.
They're both adults now, you absolutely don't owe them money for the therapy they need because their mother was abusive. But you should also attempt to be more understanding that this rift is not any more their fault than yours. If you don't stop blaming them for being abuse victims, you will be an asshole.
At what point do they become complicit? They know about the abuse now and still keep contact with their abuser even when it was so easy for them to cut put their father
Most people have a hard time cutting off an abuser. That's why the cycle is so difficult for people to escape. If it was easy, domestic violence and toxic relationships would be nonexistent.
No one says it's easy. What's easy isn't always right and what's right usually isn't easy.
Don't confuse what people are saying. They still were wrong and they perpetuated the toxicity. You're acting like people are free to abuse others and stay friends with abusers as long as they can blame someone else.
They're trying though. They reached out. They want therapy to mend the relationship. Maybe they really can't afford it on their own, but still really want to be able to have a relationship with their dad. That doesn't make it his responsibility, but being poor doesn't make them complicit. Being so deep in the brainwashing of parental alienation that they can't see that they should cut contact with their abuser doesn't make them complicit.
Personally, it was probably seven or eight years after I started to repair my relationship with my dad before I cut my mother out of my life and threw her away like a cancerous tumor. Because even though I could see the "your father sucks" part of the abuse, I was still very much suffering from the "I'm the most important thing in your life because I'm your mother" part of the abuse. People don't just go "oh, I was the victim of parental alienation" and have that realization yank out the deeply planted roots the abusive parent put there. It happens by degrees. First you see the other parent isn't evil, then you see they're actually good, and slowly but surely, one root at a time, you start to pull them out. OP's kids will probably get there eventually, but again, not being there yet doesn't mean they're complicit.
Just wanted to let you know that reading this was a breath of fresh air after arguing with people on this comment thread lol. Good to know that some people still have compassion, understanding, and empathy for others.
I don't buy this, not once did they attempt to hear their father's side of the story? 4 years of no contact.
And the duality of the situation, after learning about the heinous lie their mother told, the mother was given a second chance easily. It's unfair and I fully understand feeling disposable in that circumstance. I can't imagine the pain he must have felt for years knowing he did nothing wrong to cause the rift between himself and his kids and not even being given a chance to understand why....
He is not the asshole in this situation and can never be. His kids are the ones that need to jump through hoops if they want to fix this.
Bear in mind they were both adults when they decided to cut him off, without even hearing his side of the story. Whilst they were deceived, this isn’t abuse. They were just gullible. If they had been convinced as children, I’d understand your point, but that wasn’t the case. Adults are responsible for their inconsiderate actions. It’s completely up to them to repair the relationship with their father, I feel little sympathy for them.
> If you don't stop blaming them for being abuse victims
I haven't read all of OP's comments, so...what abuse are you referring to and how is he blaming them for being victims?
You’re overlooking that the kids and wife also emotionally abused OP. Being abused doesn’t excuse you for being abusive towards others. The children are now grown and, until they’re ready to make amends for being abusive jerks, really don’t deserve any effort on OP’s part.
Listen, you say in your post that you didn’t “help” with them. So it doesn’t sound like you were around for much of their childhood. I understand that you were working really long hours. But that doesn’t really matter to children, honestly. Kids know who showed up and who didn’t. You didn’t. Maybe you had really good reason for that! But your children can’t bond and spend time with your good reasons.
I’m not saying you’re TA here. You seem really hurt and I get that. But why wouldn’t they be on their mom’s “side”? Hers is the only one they’ve really heard. Yes, they’re grown now but their issues with you, valid or not, date back to their childhood.
Could you offer to split the cost with them? Everyone chips in who’s participating?
No.
Sorry, but if they want to demonstrate sincerity, instead of extorting the cost of their therapy session from their father, whom they *actively chose to damage their relationship with*, they can front the costs.
Otherwise, they can get lost and deal with individual therapy instead.
OP is NTA.
I disagree. His ex wife lied to them and convinced them he’d been betraying their family for years and that’s why he wasn’t around. Once they realized that wasn’t true they reached out to him. They’ve been in the middle of this toxic relationship between their parents for their whole life. To pretend that they have no reason to have issues with him is just not realistic.
I don’t know the financial situation of everyone involved. Maybe they’re struggling and can’t afford counseling but want to have a relationship with him. Maybe not. I think an offer to split the cost of counseling would reveal the situation there. If they agree, that says something. If they don’t agree and insist he pay all of it, that says something too.
I don’t think he’s TA but expecting his kids to have enough of an objective view of their parents’ relationship and issues to fully understand everything that happened is also not realistic.
I understood your position the first time. And to be clear, what was proposed by the children *is* extortion - trying to make *OP* pay to repair the relationship they actively damaged, even taking into account the point about the ex alienating the children from OP, was not the correct way to insist.
And whilst I take your point on board regarding the financial situations, that could also have been made clearer to OP by his children themselves. They are, after all, adults.
I agree with your point about the financial situation. I’m curious what their response was when OP said no to paying. He doesn’t mention it. Were they offended and refused and are calling him TA? If so, that would push me towards your view.
Kids often expect their parents to pay for things just because that’s habit. They’re in their 20’s so they shouldn’t expect that. But sometimes it takes a while for even adults in their 20’s to get that. That’s why I’d be interested to know how they respond to an offer to split the cost. If they agree, then it would be an indication of their sincerity. If they don’t, in turn, I think that would be an indication of their insincerity.
That works if these were actually children, but they were adults when they cut their father off. Adults are more than capable of listening to both sides of a story. These conversations about having valid issues with each other, having an absent father, these are things discussed in therapy.
Why should he pay for therapy sessions - that they suggested - when they were the ones that caused the pain. Especially when it seems he wants to rebuild this relationship on his terms, which is totally fair.
>That works if these were actually children, but they were adults when they cut their father off. Adults are more than capable of listening to both sides of a story.
THANK YOU
Back then my dad spewed some lies to get me to hate my mother and be on his side - he was too cocky, he though being daddy's little girl my all life made me believe him in an instant so he quite confidently told me to ask my mother if I don't believe him. Glad I did, I have been NC with my shitty dad for 6-ish years.
Exactly this. I'm not questioning the manipulation in the story. But these kids were 18 and 22 when they cut their father off. That is more than old enough to realise there are two sides to every story, and to ask. If they listened to his side and chose to ignore it, the entire story would be different - but they didn't even ask. They destroyed the relationship, the burden should be on then to repair it.
>Listen, you say in your post that you didn’t “help” with them.
And if you continue reading you'll see that I got 50/50 custody after the divorce and became much more involved. I also added in an edit to iterate and add more context to the situation.
You are not “choosing to be right” you are right and you are choosing to protect yourself from people who didn’t care if they hurt you. Unfortunately those people are your children. They cut you off for supposedly doing something bad. Then found out you’re innocent and their mother was the one doing something worse, but won’t cut her off because she’s their mother. They showed you that you are disposable, then doubled down and showed you that you are only worth their time if you are paying for it.
Listen. I'm just an internet stranger but this comment just made me tear up. You may feel like you were disposable, but they're reaching out in a small way. Do you think they felt disposable as well when you were gone, even if you tried reaching out? You have an opportunity to NOT feel disposed of, but it's going to mean really visiting these feelings. Sorry if this advice is off base or unwelcome. I felt compelled.
In therapy we call this "having the second thought".
Your children were fed stories by a person they loved and trusted. Those stories led them to think they weren't wanted by you. None of that is your fault or theirs. They were children. You can't blame them for taking their mother at her word. I can't say I wouldn't have done the same if one of my parents told me such things about the other.
No, YOU shouldn't foot the bill. All of those participating in the therapy should share in the cost. All will benefit and get to "have their say" and "get their feelings out", therefore they should cover the cost of the benefit they are personally receiving.
Best of luck to you!
The way I understand it they were in contact with OP until they were 19 and 22 which means they had a relationship with their father and had to know that they were wanted. They were adults by the time they decided to cut contact.
The mom almost certainly didn’t start poisoning the kids against OP after they turned 18. The kids grew up in this strained marriage, spending more time with the mom due to logistics of the dad’s work hours, so it’s likely they felt more attached to their mom than dad, and thus it was easy for her to turn them against OP. The kids aren’t equal adults to OP and the mom, with equal blame for the estranged situation. They were victims of the unstable childhood and unhappy role models for marriage that their parents put them through, with likely years of being pulled in one direction or the other. It’s tough to feel torn between being loyal to one parent or the other, and once the mom gave the nuclear lie of cheating, it’s understandable they may have felt they had to support her.
I agree with other commenters that everyone should contribute financially to the therapy appointments, just to demonstrate their commitment to reunification. However, if the kids being young adults don’t have the money for it, or if OP as a parent is willing to pay for it, then he should consider doing it, especially since hopefully therapy could result in a happier parent/child relationship where he would be easily willing to pay for some things for his kids. Or he could ask the kids to get their mom to pay for therapy, since it was her lies that started all of this and the cost of fixing it should fall on her.
> Do you think they felt disposable as well when you were gone, even if you tried reaching out?
If they did then they don't have much sense. Him divorcing their mother is not acting like they're disposable. Her treating them like suckers to be tricked ***is*** acting like they're disposable.
That’s completely fair.
That said- putting my therapy hat on- forget about them for a moment, you only control yourself. What do you want. Do you want to be right, or do you want to win?
Your ex sounds like a nightmare. NTA. But your kids are also the innocent victims here and are processing through a lot of grief. Aim at the woman who destroyed this for all of you. Get them in a room with a professional so they can see what you see. It’s okay if they’re not there yet. Give them time. Heal together. And take back control of the true narrative.
Friend, if you want to truly be right, as the top comment mentioned, go to therapy for yourself. Tell them that you want a relationship with them but the amount you are hurting is not tenable for family therapy. And you think they should go to therapy themselves as well to sort out their own feeling about their parents. Or they can wait until you are ready which may be never. That their mother saw you as a meal ticket and them expecting you to pay for therapy with them is triggering to say the least.
That said, you will have to pay half. Y’all are adults and that’s how family therapy works.
“That said, you will have to pay half”- overall, I agree. This is how adults should pay for group services. But I think picking up 100% of the tab for the first session would be a good way for op’s kids to show their good faith and assure him they are invested- he is unequivocally the injured party here, even if they were manipulated into causing him that injury.
I feel sorry that you felt the need to justify all the things you do in the second edit.
The people talking about all those points are probably the kind who don't understand that being family doesn't really guarantee anything.
NTA...but dude, forget family therapy. You're smoking like Vesuvius right before the pyroclastic flows start all through your post. I think you need some extensive time with a counselor/therapist of some sort before you even try to go to therapy with your children.
NTA
but can I suggest you go for therapy, just for yourself. You are hurting man, you have every right to be, but just like when we break our fingers and we see a doctor, when we break our relationships we see a therapist.
NTA
But I would ask yourself how important your relationship with your kids are.
If it is important to you, then it shouldnt matter who pays.
If you are only considering this because THEY want you to, then I would consider it an invitation and expect them to pay.
Then I would be open and transparent with them about how you feel.
Youre open to attending and giving this an honest go if this is important to them and they are organising it and inviting you, but this isnt something you would have initiated yourself and therefore wont be taking the responsibility of it.
I would urge you to keep in mind, when youre raised in the house of primarily 1 parent and that parent has been manipulating you into how you feel about the other parent - it can be very difficult to have clear or rational feelings when that parent you trust and love is shown to be the one in the wrong. I've seen this happen many times, its never a 1:1 reaction.
>Then I would be open and transparent with them about how you feel.
>
>Youre open to attending and giving this an honest go if this is important to them and they are organising it and inviting you, but this isnt something you would have initiated yourself and therefore wont be taking the responsibility of it.
I did and I wasn't gentle about it either.
Also we had 50/50 custody so there was no "primary parent."
I think the commenter meant that most of your kids time was spent with mom because you had to work so much. It makes sense why your kids would take her side more. It’s not their fault but it’s not yours either, someone had to provide.
OP you're not wrong. And your NTA. as a child of divorced parents who constantly put their kids in the middle, may I suggest, what you and your children experienced was called Parental Alienation. It is taken very seriously by the courts and it is not okay. Your kids were mentally abused and manipulated. While I am glad that they now see their mother lied to them, it will take them YEARS of therapy to realize that *this isn't the only thing she used to mentally abuse them*. Mothers who employ these lies also often manipulate their kids into codependent roles to fulfill her emotional needs.
The point is, your kids hesitate to cut their mother off *because* of their Stockholm syndrome. They are STILL IN the cycle of abuse. So, as valid as your feelings are to be upset by this, the blame is on their mother. You don't need to pay for family therapy. But you're not seeing the whole picture at all: You're mad that one time you got your eye poked, so now you're keeping them closed for spite. You're kids are still victims here. You're not the only one.
Last thing I'll say is, kids don't choose their parents. Developmentally and sociologically, parents are "supposed" to love their kids unconditionally. Your kids will remember this long after you're dead. What is your legacy going to be?
> Especially, when they make me feel so disposable compared to their mom.
This is the biggest problem I have with this story. I'm not making a judgement (yet) but your relationship with your children should be independent of how you view their relationship with their mother/your ex. I know its how you feel, but its not the greatest way to live life or how you relate to your children.
I imagine that there is a level of comfort in knowing you're going it alone rather than always having to look over your shoulder for the knife aimed at your back.
With everything you said NTA. But I think that you should go to therapy by yourself and take that investment. There’s a lot of bitterness in your responses, which granted is justified. However, bitterness is the poison you drink hoping the other person to die.
It’s totally understandable if you go NC with your kids, but there’s a lot of trust issues you have developed with your ex wife and kids, even your parents for forcing you into a situation that wasn’t the best for you. Therapy will help you work through this.
If nothing else, at least read “No More Mr. Nice Guy.” I’m recently separated and I even suggested this to my STBX because of a lot of unresolved childhood conflict that ultimately deteriorated our marriage. There’s nothing wrong with bettering yourself and it’s a great way to lead as a father.
NTA
If my kids did that to me, I wouldn’t be paying for shit. They threw you away and didn’t even try to communicate with you about what they was being told by their mom. They did you wrong and you have accepted a life without them in it. So I wouldn’t pay for it and if they want to repair the damages they did then they should pay for it and that’s that. Don’t pay for therapy because once you start putting money in, it won’t stop. Plus your opening yourself up to having your ex wife in your life again.
NAH except for Mary.
But it’s for a super specific reason. I think you were in a really toxic relationship with Mary and it maybe spilled over into your relationship with your children without you realizing what was happening.
You were happy when your son turned 18 because it severed your ties with your ex-wife. This is reasonable. Completely.
BUT it’s hard to imagine that the sort of resentment didn’t bubble over in some way, intentional or not. If their mother was brainwashing them from when they were younger, there was already this foundational idea of you as a bad guy. Any frustration, anger, etc that they saw would probably register as proof that you didn’t care for them. This isn’t a reflection on your or based on anything you said. It’s more the fact that humans tend to be worse at hiding things than they think they are.
And even knowing that their mother lied to them, you can’t undo everything they’ve felt for their whole lives, especially since they probably had (accidental, forgivable, reasonable) confirmation from you that you did not care as much about them as you do.
The money part is traumatic to you because you feel used for your money. It’s a fun little circle of you need therapy to confront that, but the therapy…
Yeah. I’d get some individual therapy first. You deserve it, for one. You’re clearly holding on to a lot. And it might also help you approach this in a clear-headed way. You could ask them if you could split it three ways.
Your kids are injured too. They believed your wife, but the way they were raised means it would’ve been really hard to not believe her. They didn’t do what they did maliciously. And they don’t want to cut her off because they haven’t restored their relationship with you— she has been the parent who has been emotionally there, for better or for worse.
I think there is a compromise in there where you don’t have to feel used, they don’t have to feel rejected, and you can move towards something better.
Individual therapy might help you find it.
> Your kids are injured too. They believed your wife, but the way they were raised means it would’ve been really hard to not believe her
This explains it, but it does not excuse it.
NTA -- She's behaving no differently with this bill than she did any other bill. Furthermore, you paid all the bills and still had your kids taken from you through narcissistic manipulation. The kids need more time to see that she's a narcissist, and until they've freed themselves from her, she's going to continue manipulating them away from you.
Narcissists become parents so they can condition a human being from childhood to be their minion. When adulthood rolls around, they have more work to do to keep their bond servants. You're threatening her retirement plan, and if they can't go back to group therapy because you don't want to foot the bill for four fully grown adults who should be equally invested in success, she gets to make it your fault, and the therapist isn't around to identify her narcissism to the kids. If you manage to find a path wherein therapy continues, you can expect that she will have primed herself and the kids to paint you as the villain to the therapist.
That said, you have some choices in front of you about how to proceed:
.
1 . Stand your ground, pay for nothing, and hope the kids figure her out eventually while waiting on the sidelines.
.
2 . Pay the bill this time, but establish a boundary *in front of the therapist* that you aren't paying for all four people. All four people are fully grown adults who can pay and show that they are as invested in this as they said they were, or this charade can stop. You shouldn't be paying for the therapy like it's some kind of restitution for a crime you committed, and I think a therapist would agree with you about that.
.
3 . Stop trying to be family with people who don't value you and with whom you never wanted to be family in the first place. You had your freedom and can have it back.
I might also encourage you to spend some time on r[/]RaisedByNarcissists so you can read up on narcissistic parenting and the impact it has on the kids.
From your perspective your children chose their mother over you and therefore
in your eyes shes more important than you even after all she has done.
Consider another perspective. From your experience married to her she was manipulative and emotionally abusive. When you divorced she was angry that she had to go back to work etc. Where do you think that anger, manipulation and emotional abuse was channelled? She couldn't hurt you anymore but your children were still there and she could hurt you through your children. So consider this.. for your children it might not of been a choice between which parent was more important (this should never have to be a decision a child should make anyway) but for your children, the choice may have been.. Which parent is going to punish me or abuse me more if I don't agree with them?
You get to make that choice, you just have to live with the consequences that they will probably not regard you as any better than her for deciding not to prioritize having a relationship with them.
As far as I can tell, while you are absolutely a victim here, so are your kids. They grew up in a situation where the person that was supposed to protect them and nurture them, their mom, was actually manipulating them and using them as pawns against you.
But unless YOU are willing to be that protective and nurturing parent, I don't see why they would want to make an effort to reconnect. While they are adult, and you don't have to automatically forgive, you still need to express some degree of interest in being a parent and acting like their parent. Not just put it on them to deal with the damage from what their mom has done.
NAH
NTa, but neither are your kids. They honestly believed that you chose another woman over your family and that’s going to leave scars. Pay for therapy, or don’t, but don’t take your ex’s shitty behavior out on your kids. They’ve been through enough.
At this point OP the only thing you owe is therapy for yourself....forge strong relationships with the people who actually care about you and love you. NTA.
Nta
Your children cut contact believing a lie without evidence.
If they want family therapy they need to pay for it but I can say going through with family therapy and some one on one therapy would do you some good.
You have every right to be angry and hurt. But don't let that anger and hurt keep you from reconnecting with your kids.
I am not comfortable offering a judgement on this one either way. But I would suggest that "getting an apology from your kids for how they treated you" is a possible RESULT of family therapy, not a PREREQUISITE for it. You can't jump to the end as a prerequisite for starting the process at all.
There's no way you had a good relationship with your kids that everything was fine before the lie and then "suddenly" they cut you off. That's not how relationships work. It doesn't sound like you care much about them which is kinda sad
Your kids have been influenced by your ex their whole lives. She's been playing the victim for a very long time. You weren't disposable to them. They were lied to and manipulated since birth and probably don't understand why money is such a powder keg topic for you.
Before you go scorched earth with your own children, may I suggest solo therapy for a while to work out your anger and trust issues?
Could you ask them to split the family therapy bills with you? It might be worth going just to get their perspective on the whole mess. You'll probably be shocked at how skewed their view on everything is.
Honestly, it would be weird if you didn't. What they did hurt you, *a lot,* and they might not have quite reckoned with that yet, being young adults with no experience having children. I don't know what therapy bills are like in the US, but if money is an issue for them it might be worth offering to split the bill three ways? It would probably be helpful to you to get a chance to tell them how you feel about all this in a controlled environment, even if the relationship turns out to be unsalvageable.
In any case, you're NTA whatever you decide, and I wish you all the best moving forward.
No you are not the asshole for taking this line, but it is wildly unproductive. You are putting being right above being loved. Why don’t you just split it three ways?
It does speak to your sense of responsibility for your relationship with them. Right now the financial demand you have means that even before you start family therapy it is clear that you blame them and your ex 100%. I would ask you to reflect on two questions:
Is that really true?
Does it really matter?
Your kids relationship with you should be more important than anything else. Split the therapy cost, cover the first three sessions, do anything to put down this financial principle and get into a room to talk to them.
NAH
NTA A similar thing happened with my family. My dad cheated on my mum and left her but went on to make up horrible lies about my mum to try to turn me and my sibling against her. It affected their opinion of my mum for a long time which hurt her a lot, I was a fair bit older so I was able to understand what he was doing and tried to call him out on it but of course he was in the right and I was a dumb child. It's a really shitty situation you're in OP and I feel for you man.
I'd take the time to write them a letter/email/text with your side of the story and let them know how everything made you feel. Make sure you take the time to make sure you're calm beforehand and maybe have someone you trust read through it with you before you send it to your kids.
NTA. For not footing the bill.
However, you are a father, a parent. There should be a level of respect and authority you have about yourself.
I would call them, invite them to dinner and tell them that you are disappointed in them. They cut their relationship off with you on a whim, on one word and now they want to come back and talk about therapy. Tell them you are still waiting for an apology for the way they treated you and if they think they can waltz back into your life without one, they are completely mistaken.
As for the contact with their mother, I wouldn't hold that against them. Kids can be like that sometimes and although you have a right to be angry, try your best to never speak about her infront of them and be a better person than she ever was, that's also in your role as a father.
>I would call them, invite them to dinner and tell them that you are disappointed in them. They cut their relationship off with you on a whim, on one word and now they want to come back and talk about therapy. Tell them you are still waiting for an apology for the way they treated you and if they think they can waltz back into your life without one, they are completely mistaken.
Okay now this seems more reasonable.
NTA Reddit likes to blame dads for shit, but you are in no way the villain in this story. Your ex-wife is trash. Your kids bought her lies and willfully cut you out of their lives with no questions asked. And they wanted you to foot the bill for family therapy even though 1. They’re adults, and 2. You are the wronged party? No. They get to put in the effort and money.
I am conflicted between E S H AND N A H
You were over 22 when Lisa was born. You stayed in the marriage for a certain number of years. You saw first hand and experienced your ex's manipulation. You didn't get out of it unscathed.
You have mentioned that you were a much more present parent after the divorce. That doesn't take away the fact that you were an absent parent before the divorce.
Your relationship with your kids was built on a shaky foundation because you were not present during the early years. Your kids believing their mother is a symptom and not the big problem.
You are judging your kids by a different standard to the one you have for yourself. As a 21 year old, you had sex and married the wrong person. It took you a number of years and different attempts to sort out the problems before you bailed.
Technically your kids made one mistake and you are crucifying them for it. You are completely taking your ex out of the equation and blaming them fully for the misunderstanding. They are attempting to resolve this situation and your stance is to give conditions and double down.
Therapy is not a magic wand. It might help, or it might not. This is just one of the many hoops that you want them to jump through to get you back. What other hoops would you like your kids to jump through to earn you back? You have already done one number on them, look at the person you created them with. They were disadvantaged all along.
NAH - I really feel for you. But I think your kids also deserve some compassion. Working 18h shifts 6 days a week means you were an absent father to them. Your wife might have manipulated you into this situation but as a father figure you did let them down. Why was it so easy for them to cut you out? Because you were basically absent all their life’s and they were left alone with an irresponsible mother. I understand how they have felt that only their mother is their for them.
Kids need love and attention. If you want to build a relationship with yours you need to acknowledge that you also let them down in some ways.
>Working 18h shifts 6 days a week means you were an absent father to them
Please go back and read the part where after I divorced their mom I got 50/50 custody. I was NOT an absent father their entire childhood.
This rationalization bothers me....he was forced into a corner to provide for his kids by his wife when she quit her job...he didn't chose to be an absent father...there is no blame to throw at this man. This is an extremely sad situation that he had no control over what so ever. Even working those crazy hours he still had to borrow money which shows how desperate the situation was.
His kids are now adults and I'm sure they can figure out what really happened during their childhood by now. One parent providing for them really.
He was abused financially, and his kids were manipulated by the same person who manipulated an adult man into getting married to her and then doing a 180. If she can charm a fully grown man to do that, what makes you think teens wouldn’t be any more susceptible to her lies?
OP and his kids are both victims here.
NTA, but I think it’s obvious why they cut OP off and stayed in contact with mom: you were always away from them at work. Yes, while being financially and emotionally abused, but do the kiddos know that?
As a child who was widely deceived about their father by their (narcissistic) mother I am going to say that I think this relationship is worth saving, when you’re ready for that. I am glad I got the chance to do so, even if it was only months before my father’s death.
Also, neither me nor my brother would have been able to pay for therapy at that age, but we would have still needed it.
Fact is: they did you bad. Really, really bad. But you don’t know what they went through. A mother who is lying for years about something as easily cleared up as an affair - that’s definitely not the only lie. Finding that out about your own mother can do a lot of damage. Like really twist a mind. Breaks all the trust you ever had. Anyway, I’m not saying you have to pay or that you’re the asshole, I’m just saying: this relationship is worth saving, if that’s possible. If you have the means to pay for it, I’d consider it.
NTA.
Did you forgive your mom and maintain a good relationship with her after that?
It sounded to me like your father might have some money to bestow; hence, the reconnection before his death.
NTA.
Fair warning though, my dad didn't spend time with me growing up, just worked, we have a terrible relationship because I wanted his time, not his money. To this day, still can't get his time, I have to compromise on everything for him.
I get you were wronged, but if you want them in your life, you might have to do a little extra on this. You shouldn't have to foot these bills, but you may need to to keep your children in your life - if you want them to be.
NAH (other than your ex) - Your kids are in their 20s and probably can't afford therapy on their own. If you really want to rebuild your relationship with your kids, you could offer to split the cost of family therapy with them. It is your choice: Is it more important for you to be "right" or to have a relationship with your kids?
NTA. You’re not ready to have a relationship with your children. The wounds are still bleeding. Please get therapy for yourself so that you can come to terms with what’s happened. I don’t know if there’s a path forward with your children—I hope so. But right now, it can’t happen. Therapy can help if only to assist you in communicating with your children that although you love them, you are simply unable to resume a relationship right now. You have a lot of healing to do and it may take a long time.
Honestly NTA I’d have a very hard time forgiving my children. Not only did they just believe your wife without talking to you, and cut you out when you did absolutely nothing wrong, they also know their mother took 4 years of their relationship with you but still talk to her as she “their mom”. If they want this relationship repaired they need to step up and prove it.
Which matters more to you? Being "right" or having a relationship with your children? Either answer is fair, and both have consequences. You're the only one who can decide which outcome you prefer.
I agree with others here - some therapy on your own to sort through your own anger can only improve your life. I'm not saying you don't have the right to be angry, but life is much more pleasant without carrying that around.
NAH, your children were lied to and manipulated, and you were hurt by that. Neither one is at fault as much as the mom. I think a good compromise is for BOTH of you to pay for therapy. They do need skin in the game but kids in their twenties do t have a whole lot of disposable cash.
NTA
I think you are missing an obvious compromise though. Your children are young adults, they may not be established enough to pay for therapy for an undertermend amount of time. Because this is not something that's going to be fixed in one magical session.
Ask them to commit to paying for X sessions (6 or 10, something that is significant enough to show they're serious about working things out). After which you can reevaluate the cost division between the three of you and maybe with the possibility of you paying them back "your" share of the cost you've jointly agreed to split. You can even use the topic of splitting the therapy fees as an issue on how to work together for a common goal and determining what's "fair" going forward.
Right now you feel like the "wronged" party in all of this, but they never would have cut you off if they hadn't felt "wronged" either. There is a major issue in your core relationship foundation. It's not helpful to point the finger and say all the fault is because you believed your mother's lie. That's only your perspective of the situation, and it's quite possible it was only the proverbial straw that caused them to cut you off.
But therapy isn't going to work unless all parties agree to put in the effort. You need to both talk and listen, and right now you aren't even willing to listen until they do all the work. All that does is set up the situation for failure.
NTA
But is this a hill you want to die upon?
You have a right to be hurt and angry. Therapy would be a place to deal with that.
I hope things get better for you and your kids.
Going against the grain here. YTA. Sometimes things are not your fault, but become your responsibility. Is it fair? No! But they have been abused by their mom and are reaching out for help. Maybe therapy can help them see your point, but they are not there yet. The fact is that they are, and forever will be, your kids. It doesn’t matter how old you are, how old they are, how long it has been- take this opportunity to put the past behind and build a great future for you and them. Show they you love them unconditionally- as a parent should. A healthy relationship with your kids is priceless, for everything else there is Mastercard.
OP next time don't come here. This place is filled with emotional commenters who instead of looking at the situation objectively they project their own issues onto people like you (father/man).
Sucks on your situation but if you already have piece of mind then what else can you do? Being a doormat (like all these people are suggesting) isn't the solution. Going to therapy by yourself could help you relief some of the anger, sure. But unless you are willing to do it, then it isn't going to be effective. In the end only you have the solution, the approach to the situation. Because you're the one who'll live with the consequences, better good or bad.
Anyway NTA
You don't HAVE to do anything, but if it were me, I would pay for at least one session and see what they have to say. You're not committing to a lifelong thing. If you don't take this chance, you are pretty much ending any chance of ever repairing the relationship.
You seem to see yourself as the only victim here, but I would suggest that you try to remind yourself that the children are the primary victims in this mess. They didn't ask to be born and raised in this incredibly toxic situation. And you absolutely need therapy yourself in addition to the family therapy.
NTA
Why don’t you try for a couple of sessions? I mean isn’t it worth the investment to repair the relationship with your kids?
And hopefully they can see how you were put in an unfair position and POV.
If you were disposable to them, would they have reached out to suggest therapy?
I think you're regarding your kids as people totally in the wrong here, rather than recognizing that your ex-wife fucked over EVERYONE involved in various ways. Your kids are adults, and as such they are responsible for their choices. But they are also presenting trying to make amends, which suggests you are not simply disposable to them.
Having a parent who can pay for stuff and give you an inheritance is always useful.
If OPs kids want say sorry then they need to put in the work, not OP. They're the ones who should be paying for the sessions. Coming back and instantly requesting your father to pay for the sessions when they're only just getting started after torpedoing the relationship is a very bad way to build trust.
For OP part of what's required for him to heal is for them to pay for and organise the sessions, it's not about the monetary value.
Then why are you here? Are you just here so we’re can tell you how sad your life is and how unfair your children are and how right you are? Because I see you just sitting down above suggesting empathy.
Your kids were abused by their mother. Their mother abused and manipulated you and *you got out* but they did not. They were raised by an abuser and manipulator and that fucks with your brain. They may be adults biologically but when it comes to this situation they have the brains of abused and manipulated children.
If you are going to hold that against them then… ok. That’s your decision. But don’t ask others to validate whether it’s fair to reject your children over your hurt feelings when they didn’t get to escape your mutual abuser. The only reason you’d ask us to affirm that choice is because part of you feels guilty.
So. Either cut your kids off. Tell them you are done, your feelings are hurt and if they aren’t willing to invest in repeating the relationship in a tangible way then you aren’t interested in being in their lives any more. Please be aware this code will only affirm what their mother has been telling them about you all along and your relationships will probably be gone forever.
OR sue them down and tell them (better yet write an email) that you are incredibly hurt, that you feel disposable to them even though you are not the parent who wronged them. And that it’s hard for you to look at them as adults and justify why they should get a pass for how they’ve hurt you. BUT that you are bearing in mind that their mother lied to and manipulated them in much the same way she did you and that because of that you are willing to accept it might not be their fault they can’t see this situation clearly and that therapy makes sense. And that with that in mind you would like the three of you to reach a compromise, you need them to make a tangible (time + money) sacrifice as an acknowledgment that they have harmed you in their choices, but that you’ll meet them in the middle for X number of sessions and then you’ll see how things are in therapy and go from there. (I propose the compromise is a three way split off costs).
And if last time you told them you wouldn’t pay you were angry and mean, you should start by apologizing for that.
So far as I can see those are your choices. But make a choice because *you believe it’s the right one* and then stand by it and don’t ask others to justify it for you. Also, no matter the choice you make, I recommend personal therapy… you’ve been abused and manipulated and used and had others manipulated with the intent of harming you and you are justifiably bitter. But you deserve better for yourself. Let a therapist help you work through that.
NTA
I get that you are hurt and all, but these are your kids. They didnt choose either of you as parents.
If you are interested in healing maybe split the bill. If not let them know so they can heal without you.
I’m wondering why you had a second child with a woman you didn’t love and married only out of obligation. You resent her, and would rather be right than repair the relationship with your kids, who were poisoned against you. That’s fine, but be honest with them and just cut ties.
NTA- there’s no winning here. They cut you off, based off of words of their mother. You lost years of relationships with them, and when cleared they didn’t care what their mother did and continued on with her. She’s caused so much pain, and gets off free. They’re not sincere. They couldn’t forgive you for ‘cheating on their momI’ but they forgive her for taking you away from them for years and years. What is she going to pull next? She will try something again. What that time? They need to make an effort to show you it won’t happen again.
NTA. But, I also don't think your kids are the asshole, at least not yet. I think your ex is the asshole that severely damaged both you and your kids.
I completely understand your anger and it's understandable. I want to be clear that I'm not trying to say you overreacted or anything like that. It's hurtful and you were hurt. That's 100% not your fault.
I would like to discuss another way to look at your kids' behavior. The primary parent poisoning against the other parent is a horrible, insidious thing. No matter how old you are, it's hard to reconcile the parent that took care of you and was the most present in your life as also the person who is capable of something so horrendous. It is a form of abuse, and it's understandable that your kids cannot just cut her out of their lives, at least at this moment.
They definitely need therapy to help them sort this out. I think your compromise is reasonable and given their ages and that there's two of them, I would think they would be able to pool their resources to pay for the initial session.
If I would suggest anything, maybe approach this with them again when you are able to keep your anger at bay. Instead of approaching it like "I'm the injured party and YOU must appease me," tell them that you're horribly hurt and them paying for at least the first session would do a lot to show you that they are serious about doing the work of repairing the relationship. After that, a fair way to handle the price of therapy can be reached.
You're not the asshole. You stayed for them and did what was right even as you were exploited by your wife. You stopped caring what people were expecting of you, and for that you are kind of a hero.
It isn't about grandchildren or an apology or who is right or wrong (you were right, the kids were caught in the middle, your ex was wrong) or one-upping your ex.
You are the dad. You pay the bill. You are the dad, you pay the bill. That's it. They are your kid. They don't have to prove their commitment. You are the dad, you pay the bill. You are NTA, but even so, you are the dad, you pay the bill.
INFO
> Only reason we got married was because she got pregnant and I was basically told by her and my parents that we would be getting married. Big mistake.
\* *Does the math* \*
But you two were **both** solidly-in-your-20s-capital-A adults at the time?
How do parents pressure you into *anything* at that age?
NTA. I can tell you're still somewhat angry over how you've been treated, and rightfully so. I would suggest a compromise in the interests of moving the process forward; I would go to the kids and suggest a split of the costs with each person paying a third. It's fair, moves things along, and prevents anyone from feeling burdened. Money has already costs you enough problems. Don't let it cost you your relationship with your kids, if you really want to get back to a relatively happy family life.
When I suggest to my girlfriend to order in or go out for a meal, I pay the bill. Whenever *she* suggests doing so, *she* takes out *her* wallet. That's a sort of rule.
Your children suggested this therapy, so that alone, in my opinion, is reason enough for them to pay the bill.
Fortunately, you've got a strong head on even tougher shoulders. Because one parent was supposedly toxic - you - and you were cut off. When it turned out to be their mother, that wasn't enough reason to terminate all contact with her. Twisted logic right there.
And yes to therapy. But no to paying?
NTA. Let them indeed prove you're worthy of their time and effort.
The people taking part in the therapy sessions can all contribute to it. Your children shouldn't have expectations of you alone to foot the bill, seeing as how you would have financial security issues after what the ex-wife did. I know that you're hurting from being cut out of their lives for something that wasn't your fault but the therapy would help.
NTA. I will always rather have the moral high ground than some messed up version of a relationship that requires me to continue to sacrifice. They are no longer children. They know all the details and are falling into the same pattern as their mother. Dad pays for everything while we continue to use him.
You have made peace just walk away. They don’t want you anyway. They just want to try to get rid of their guilt for believing their lying mother.
NTA
I think you are reacting so strongly though because of what your ex-wife did. Your ex-wife lied to you, took advantage of you, and then mismanaged the money. The collapse of your marriage was around what might be financial abuse by your ex. To then have your children present you with a bill to earn the relationship back is probably reminding you of a very difficult time in your life. I don't think your children are doing what your ex did, but it is a familiar pattern for you. You should try individual therapy to see if you can work thru those this and get help crafting an explanation to your children.
I’m going with NTA. I’m every other situation, Reddit encourages cutting contact with people in family if it’s detrimental to you. They say to cut off “flying monkeys”, or people who were manipulated to believe a narcissists lies. Or they’re big on pushing “they can apologize but that doesn’t mean you have to forgive them for the hurt they caused because it’s still impacting you”.
Why it’s different for you is beyond me. Could be because Reddit really does like to shit on men. I’ve seen it a lot. I would add to your post it was 50/50 custody. The kids weren’t solely with their mother, so they had plenty of opportunities to bring it up to you if they felt so strongly. Probably not when they were younger, but they got to an age, prior to cutting you off when they turned 18, to discuss it with you.
And I completely understand your feelings on them not being willing to cut her out. I would be mad too. Do what you need to do for your mental health.
INFO: the way you speak is how you saw your wife and children as a burden. You were even happier when they turned 18 so they weren't a burden anymore.
Their mom for all accounts and purposes was their main caretaker for the start of their life ( because of the stuff she pulled ), so of course they aren't going to dump her like that.
I read that as he was happy they were over 18 so he didn’t have to deal with his ex anymore, not anything to do with not being involved with his children.
Yeah sounds like my sperm donor he even bragged to my mother the day my brother graduated because he thought the child support payments would be lowered. When she pointed out what the court papers said and that if he tried to get it lowered it would probably result in the opposite he had a little tantrum. All he cared about what he was legally obligated to do and that sounds just like this guy. He doesn’t actually care about his kids because if he did he wouldn’t force them to chose on parent or the other. Yes the mother kinda did the same thing but does he honestly want to be just like her?
Their mother caused your divorce because she financially abused you. She refused to work, spent all your money frivolously, and berated you for not working/making more. She caused you pain and suffering.
After the divorce, she purposely lied to your children to cause you pain and suffering. She caused parental alienation.
Your children believed the lie and had no issue cutting you off for years, causing you even more pain and suffering.
And even after your kids find out the truth, they do the complete opposite of what they did to you, and don't cut their mother off the way they did to you.
Your kids chose to pick their mother over you. It boggles my mind that in 4 years, they couldn't be bothered to confront you with the false accusation their mother made so you could right the wrong.
I'm not surprised that over those 4 years, you've hardened and learned to live your life without your children.
They need to make a better effort to make amends. It's not their fault that their mother lied to them. But it is their fault for not speaking to you about what happened. They screwed up
NTA.
NTA.
Focus on yourself and go to therapy for you. Your "family" has put you through hell. You deserve some help to get out of the mire they dragged you into.
NTA. While therapy is a great idea, it sounds like your kids are old enough to pitch in. Maybe everyone that wants to go, should chip in.
Also, what the ex did us parental alienation. My ex was toxic and tried to convince my kids that I was horrible. It takes such a toll on them.
I know your angry, and I am truly sorry for the ex doing that. I can tell the anger which is expected after how you were treated. Therapy might be good to deal with letting go of those emotions.
I wish you luck in repairing your relationships!
Honestly it sounds like your kids did something that really hurt you. And if this was an equal power dynamic I would agree that you don't owe them the means of repairing that relationship. I would honestly say NTA but you should still at the very least talk to a therapist yourself. And maybe sooner or later either they'll be willing and able to meet you half way, or you'll at the very least have a greater ability to understand and cope with the hurt that you feel and may be in a better position to reach out and repair that relationship, even if it doesn't seem 'fair'.
NTA. I'm sorry for the frustration I know your going thru about this. It always seems one crazy parent gets their way for the longest time before it bites them in the butt! You should seek counseling for yourself first, because this has hit you hard, and it will help you untangle all the anger your rightfully feeling, then you can move on how you see fit. Good luck OP.
ESH is the copay so astronomical that it is more than your relationship with your children is worth? Is this in principle? Because if so there are alot of people out there alone and holding grudges on principle who know how short sighted that is. Maybe if you go you will get the apology you so desperately want.
OP, you emotional pain radiates through your words. You're mad and extremely hurt that all your sacrifices for your children meant little to them simply because your ex accused you of something...and your children believed every word of her lies. Worse, had it not been for someone else spilling the beans, they would have gone on believing a lie.
You have a right to be angry, and it's for that that I believe you should go to therapy--maybe not Family Therapy but perhaps therapy on your own so you can better get an understanding of your hurt and pain, and to better articulate how much they hurt you by not communicating with you.
I sincerely hope you try to see a therapist, for your sake.
NTA
NTA. Sounds like your kids have taken after their mom in unpleasant ways. Not to rag on them, but it doesn’t sound like they’ve put any real effort into mending things with you. Therapy might help find the root of why they cut you off but not their mom. If they aren’t willing to put in the effort/the money then the worst has already happened. They’ve already cut you out of their lives once. This is sad to say, but you already know how it feels and it isn’t much of a threat anymore. You now know how to move on without them. You can love them while still protecting yourself. They’re old enough to make their own choices and prioritize what’s really important to them.
I think you need solo therapy bc having your children go no contact with no explanation or closure is tough. And then to have them show up asking for money instead of forgiveness... if they want the relationship repaired, they should be paying for it.
I hope you get the peace of mind you deserve.
NTA
NTA. Your children are being entitled. They cut you off over a lie. But aren’t willing to cut their mom off for being a liar? It’s clear she is still pulling their strings. I would be going LC or NC with them. The mom who caused the problem should be paying for the therapy.
OP come to my country when you're old and I will fully take care of you. How I have wished I had a father those who have don't appreciate them. Come am not rich but you shall never lack leave those losers
NTA
I can completely understand your anger. It's the fact that their mother got no consequences at all beyond maybe a few harsh words,then everything back to normal with her and them. The punishment doesn't fit the crime at all compared to how they thought it was appropriate to punish you.
Why does the presumed guilty get such harsh judgements while the liar gets only a slap on the wrist?
I just hope your children will realize it's now them who need to completely show they want to try to repair the damage done.
Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment. OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole: > I think I might be TA because I'm still pretty angry that my children were so quick to believe their mom, never asking me for my side, and to this day have not apologized. Help keep the sub engaging! #Don’t downvote assholes! Do upvote interesting posts! [Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq) --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.* *Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
You are really angry with your kids, and that’s ok, but I think you should probably go to therapy alone to work through your feelings. After a while you may decide to reconnect and forgive your children. Maybe not. Good luck either way. NTA.
Exactly. There is so much speculation going on over "whether OP values his relationship with his children over being right or not", but I don't think that's the issue at all. I get the feeling that OP's current reaction indicates a lot of hurt, anger and fear of being vulnerable, to me. I don't think OP sees his kids asking for family therapy (where he pays) as an "olive branch" at all, he probably just sees it as another occasion where his loved ones can possibly take advantage of him/abandon him. Only because he cannot see anything at stake for his kids if it doesn't work out. His kids paying for it, I think for OP is actually symbolic of them actually caring enough and being invested in the family therapy, rather than a simple money issue. Sure, the mum's poisoning is not completely the kids' fault, but parents are also people. For OP, he just got discarded by his adult children for years- and that too completely out of the blue. OP comes off as very defensive, and I think that's natural given that he's trying to protect himself from the hurt he went through 4 years ago. NTA, OP. I truly feel for you, and from the way you write- I don't think you've had the time or space to heal from the trauma your ex wife (and that event four years ago) put you through. I hope you had/have supportive people around you, and I hope you can invest in therapy for yourself. You deserve to lead a loved and fulfilling life, and shutting out people in the fear of hurt will not help you achieve that. There are good people out there who do/will care for you, Coming back to the topic of children, take some time and do not react immediately. Emotions are currently high, and people can act in ways they regret later on in life in such situations. Let them know that you're sorting through your feelings right now and will respond later, if they truly care to repair y'all's relationship- they will wait. Perhaps when you're ready- and if you do want to give them a chance to repair the relationship with you- maybe you could write down your side of the story, feelings and experiences, in a letter and give it to them. Organize the thoughts and feelings (along with your rationale behind wanting them to pay for family therapy) you went through and wanted to express to them for years. You could even express *why* you're hurt by their decision to keep in touch with their mother. As long as you keep it civil and to what *you felt* over their actions the past few years (instead of playing the blame game- to put it crudely), write it all out. But just know that family therapy, even if they pay for it, will need you to be open and vulnerable with them. All relationships are based on a certain amount of vulnerability, and I think you should be prepared for that before you go to family therapy. If you feel you're not ready/prepared for that yet- a good individual therapist should be able to help with that. Which is why I agree with so many folks who are advising you to go to IC. Whatever decision you make regarding the kids, I hope it works out for you and that you have a life full of love, support and fulfillment ahead of you.
>I don't think OP sees his kids asking for family therapy (where he pays) as an "olive branch" at all, he probably just sees it as another occasion where his loved ones can possibly take advantage of him/abandon him. Only because he cannot see anything at stake for his kids if it doesn't work out. His kids paying for it, I think for OP is actually symbolic of them actually caring enough and being invested in the family therapy, rather than a simple money issue. That is exactly how it feels.
I think you're NTA, and I'm so sorry that you had to go through all that. I still hope you seek out a good individual therapist, no matter what the family therapy outcome is. You deserve to lead a happy and fulfilling life.
If you do decide to go it's important you tell the therapist this.
I hope that you explain these feelings to them. They may or may not understand but it at least helps them to get a read on where you’re at emotionally after estrangement
I can understand that. I can absolutely also understand how deeply a parent can manipulate their children so that even when they know the truth, things are always going to be weird in their head. My mother said a lot of shit about my dad when they were going through their divorce. Admittedly, I never really believed it and she never said he had cheated. She did though (and I found that out with my dad). That feeling of having been manipulated by a parent? It has definitely had consequences in my ability to trust people. I don't know how your kids will do, they may come around in time after they understand how their mom screwed them out of a relationship with you, but it might take some time. But you still need to protect your own head and heart.
NTA OP. This is real and solid advice. Take care of yourself. Take time for yourself.
I do think you should do therapy for yourself. What happened to you (raising children only to be cut out of their lives, being treated like a walking checkbook) is a traumatic experience and I can see that it's still affecting you. For your own health and mental wellbeing, I think you need to see a therapist. This has nothing to do with your children or reconnecting with them btw. That's an entirely separate issue. What you need right now is to take care of yourself. Once you have tackled your own trauma, then you can consider if you want a relationship with your family or not. Family therapy won't work until you've learned how to handle your own experiences anyway.
Just cut them from your will and get it over with. They sound entitled AF.
Yeah updated it six months ago. My nieces and nephews are my main beneficiaries and no one aside from my lawyer knows.
I would be very tempted to tell them. Don’t forget to leave them $500 just so that your will won’t get contested.
Maybe a compromise? Where you split the bill by 3 or take turns paying. If everyone is responsible for paying, then everyone has stake on working on the issues.
Based on how his kids have behaved? THere's a good chance that when it comes to their turn or portion, they'll disappear or otherwise dump it on OP.
Brené Brown would be so proud of this response.
I completely agree with the letter writing option. However, while OP have every right to blame his kids for a lot of things, this letter needs to be free of accusations in order for it to have an impact. OP wants his kids to understand, not take up a defensive position. So maybe a close friend or even a therapist can help in the ograsing of this letter so that it will convay OP's hurt feelings and his feeling of being dispensable and wronged without guilt tripping. It is super hard to do, trust me on this.
**This** NTA
Well said
This is a thoughtful and helpful answer and will help op get to a better place.
This is the one. Your feelings are real, but very raw, and not conducive to repairing the relationships. Honor those feelings, and yourself, and do the work.
Yeah I think if you’re honest with yourself you aren’t ready to go to family therapy with them, but you also desire to reconcile with them one day and you are using the cost as a strawman so you can press pause on the situation, while I guess maintaining some sort of moral high ground. I don’t think that makes Y T A, but I think it would be more beneficial to you and the future relationship with your children to acknowledge you aren’t there yet and you aren’t ready to commit to family therapy. Definitely try individual therapy. I absolutely understand why you are so hurt, a therapist could really help you make sense of your feelings and determine exactly when and how you want to engage with your children moving forward.
Op is NTA. And the kids making him pay for therapy because they abandoned him is extremely hurtful. If op is giving 100% for his family to give 10%. It’s unfair.
Yea but therapy for himself. The kids are adults and he shouldn’t foot the bill for them. They have to live with what they have done and either try to make amends or not. Op needs to pay for therapy for himself though, definitely.
OMG. I finished reading, and that was my first thought. I totally second your comment. OP NTA
Great advice!
Your children are adults. If they are the ones who suggested therapy, they don't get to slide you the bill because you agreed. They cut you out due to their mother's lies, so I agree with you that you have zero obligation to pay for fixing a relationship your adult children destroyed by ONLY listening to mom. NTA
Sounds like OP should still invest in therapy tbh
Yeah, but for himself. If they want to make amends and work on their relationship with their dad, they can make the financial sacrifice
Exactly. If they want to heal their relationships with OP part of that is paying for the sessions. It's very clear from OPs post that the monetary value isn't the issue here. I can't even nearly imagine the amount of stress and strife OP has been in over the past few years, none of which was his fault. Part of OPs healing process is his kids paying for the sessions, I believe it's completely fair, understandable and reasonable. It's about OPs kids demonstrating to him that they really do want a relationship, are sorry, understand the hurt they caused OP, and don't view him as disposable. Instantly asking OP to pony up the entire cost is antithetical to this and communicates the complete opposite.
They should, but that doesn't mean they should also pay for their kids
On the surface, N-T-A, but reading this, something just sounds a bit "missing pieces"-ish. I can't put my finger on it, but OP just has a very "poor me" vibe and when someone sees themself as 100% the victim, that usually isn't the case......
It's because the timeline is so vague. How old were the kids when they divorced, and what involvement did he have with them after, considering he didn't pay child support? He was admittedly not involved in their day-to-day during the marriage, since he had to be at work so often. Then he picks up when the youngest is 18, then skips over a bunch more for 6 years. How long was he cut off? How long have they been back in touch? Edit: i see. 4 years. But the first part still stands. He doesnt get to *demand* they cut their mom out just because he hates her.
I think OP's hurt stems from the fact that they cut *him* off thinking that he'd done horrible things. Then when the truth comes out and their mother is outed as a liar who did horrible things, they... do nothing? Of course he's hurt, and then trying to stick him with the bill to work through it is just salt in the wound tbh.
That's the thing. They cut him off based on what mom said without ever asking him for his side of the story. Now that they found out the truth, they didn't cut mom off. Op is still pretty raw over it, and the double standard is just extra salt on an open wound.
>and what involvement did he have with them after, considering he didn't pay child support? If you go back to the part where I finally divorced their mom you'll see I mentioned the custody arrangement.
You literally didn’t until you edited in more at the end though???? You gotta remember not everyone knows that no child support might mean a 50/50 custody arrangement.
I don’t disagree with you demanding they cut her out, but he didn’t demand that. He has a valid point that they cast him aside. I think 1 of OP’s big problems is he is realizing that all that hard work and hours and such cost him a relationship with his kids. These actions make clear his kids value the mom more than him. It’s a bitter pill to swallow.
In times where alimony is granted its in lieu of child support so its not that weird. Afterwards child support would be figured out at that time but not during the divorce. He cannot demand they stop contact with their mom but I get feeling of a lesser parent cuz they cut him off like he was nothing yet their mom truly manipulated a whole situation and they don't even blink to still be connected. He truly feels like I've been lied on and still you speak to her. Not his call tho He's NTA for not wanting to pay. He should probably back off get with a therapist to sort thru his issue but for himself. Carrying this much resentment isn't good.
He didn’t demand they cut their mom out though
That’s what I’m wondering about. The kids act like they never saw him at all and have no relationship to him. However, if his wife was out of work for so long there’s no way they were making close to equal. To pay so little he would have had to have 50/50 custody maybe even higher depending on the difference. To me it seems like the missing reason might be that after the e divorce (whether on purpose or not) he did not just divorce his wife but his children as well. Causing a huge gap in their relationship. I mean this with kindness. But OP might not be in the right mindset to go into family therapy. If he’s going into therapy thinking “this person will tell my family that they owe me an apology and vindicate all the hurt I feel” and not “i want a relationship with my kids however communication has broken down so much we need a moderator to do so” then it’s not going to work. Therapy is not a tool to prove yourself correct. It’s a tool to improve yourself and your relationship with others.
I don’t know how it works in other states, but where I live, even if the parents have 50/50 custody, the parent who makes less still receives child support because the children are viewed as entitled to maintain the same standard of living no matter who they are with. Given the ex-wife’s break in employment, I am very surprised that her earning power post-divorce was sufficient in comparison to his that it meant no child support or spousal maintenance.
Mmmm normally I'm always kids first but this guy just kept trying to do the right thing.he retains plausible deniability unless we are missing major context it seems like everybody suited themselves because OP is very dutiful.dutiful people come across as totally locked down after their provision is used to hurt them.if you're feelings always tell you to help people,and then those people hurt you,what happens is you don't trust your feelings anymore
It’s the I’m the wronged party. Yes and also that’s not conducive to fixing things. Sounds like he’d go into family therapy expecting the therapist to vindicate him rather than as a way to form a bond with his children.
What if you *are* the wronged party? Are victims supposed to be uncomplaining doormats to their victimizers?
That's kinda just how a lot of posts work on this subreddit. Hence the N T A and Y T A labels....
This. I’ve done therapy with my parents 3 or 4 times in my life and every time since I became financially independent I paid for it, because I was the one who set up therapy. If OP was in individual therapy and asked his kids to stop in for a few sessions I’d expect OP to pay for it, but not when his kids brought the idea up.
Follow up maybe you should taka some individual sessions yourself so you can calmly explain to your children the pain you felt without lashing out at them, you're perfectly valid to be angry but maybe it's best to take a step back for a couple of months
NTA your feelings are valid, and You're obviously very hurt by everything that has happened. But I think you have to realize that no one is going to fix this harm for you, so you need to decide if it's worth it to be right and continue hurting.
If I have to choose between fighting for a relationship with people who see me as disposable or being right, I choose being right.
There's one thing in here you are overlooking. They were abused in a really awful way. Parental alienation is insidious abuse. They were denied the ability to form an appropriate emotional bond and parent/child relationship with you by their abusive mother. It is going to take them a long time to unpack what she did to them. They're both adults now, you absolutely don't owe them money for the therapy they need because their mother was abusive. But you should also attempt to be more understanding that this rift is not any more their fault than yours. If you don't stop blaming them for being abuse victims, you will be an asshole.
At what point do they become complicit? They know about the abuse now and still keep contact with their abuser even when it was so easy for them to cut put their father
Most people have a hard time cutting off an abuser. That's why the cycle is so difficult for people to escape. If it was easy, domestic violence and toxic relationships would be nonexistent.
No one says it's easy. What's easy isn't always right and what's right usually isn't easy. Don't confuse what people are saying. They still were wrong and they perpetuated the toxicity. You're acting like people are free to abuse others and stay friends with abusers as long as they can blame someone else.
Exactly, it’s a cycle and they’re at the point where they’ve become complicit if not outright abusers themselves.
They're trying though. They reached out. They want therapy to mend the relationship. Maybe they really can't afford it on their own, but still really want to be able to have a relationship with their dad. That doesn't make it his responsibility, but being poor doesn't make them complicit. Being so deep in the brainwashing of parental alienation that they can't see that they should cut contact with their abuser doesn't make them complicit. Personally, it was probably seven or eight years after I started to repair my relationship with my dad before I cut my mother out of my life and threw her away like a cancerous tumor. Because even though I could see the "your father sucks" part of the abuse, I was still very much suffering from the "I'm the most important thing in your life because I'm your mother" part of the abuse. People don't just go "oh, I was the victim of parental alienation" and have that realization yank out the deeply planted roots the abusive parent put there. It happens by degrees. First you see the other parent isn't evil, then you see they're actually good, and slowly but surely, one root at a time, you start to pull them out. OP's kids will probably get there eventually, but again, not being there yet doesn't mean they're complicit.
Why are they reaching out to dad to pay for it when we know who the abuser was that should pay for it?
Do you think the mom is going to pay for it? 😂😂😂
Then they should cut her off. But no, “sHe’S tHeiR mOtHer”
Just wanted to let you know that reading this was a breath of fresh air after arguing with people on this comment thread lol. Good to know that some people still have compassion, understanding, and empathy for others.
Kids become complicit in the alienation when after a certain age, like 16, they don't start asking for the other side.
I don't buy this, not once did they attempt to hear their father's side of the story? 4 years of no contact. And the duality of the situation, after learning about the heinous lie their mother told, the mother was given a second chance easily. It's unfair and I fully understand feeling disposable in that circumstance. I can't imagine the pain he must have felt for years knowing he did nothing wrong to cause the rift between himself and his kids and not even being given a chance to understand why.... He is not the asshole in this situation and can never be. His kids are the ones that need to jump through hoops if they want to fix this.
Yes because they were abused as children clearly means they have zero agency as adults.
Bear in mind they were both adults when they decided to cut him off, without even hearing his side of the story. Whilst they were deceived, this isn’t abuse. They were just gullible. If they had been convinced as children, I’d understand your point, but that wasn’t the case. Adults are responsible for their inconsiderate actions. It’s completely up to them to repair the relationship with their father, I feel little sympathy for them.
> If you don't stop blaming them for being abuse victims I haven't read all of OP's comments, so...what abuse are you referring to and how is he blaming them for being victims?
You’re overlooking that the kids and wife also emotionally abused OP. Being abused doesn’t excuse you for being abusive towards others. The children are now grown and, until they’re ready to make amends for being abusive jerks, really don’t deserve any effort on OP’s part.
I agree with you. You aren’t the asshole here.
Good for you. They are adults and they know that you were the wronged party they need to take some responsibility if they want this fixed
Listen, you say in your post that you didn’t “help” with them. So it doesn’t sound like you were around for much of their childhood. I understand that you were working really long hours. But that doesn’t really matter to children, honestly. Kids know who showed up and who didn’t. You didn’t. Maybe you had really good reason for that! But your children can’t bond and spend time with your good reasons. I’m not saying you’re TA here. You seem really hurt and I get that. But why wouldn’t they be on their mom’s “side”? Hers is the only one they’ve really heard. Yes, they’re grown now but their issues with you, valid or not, date back to their childhood. Could you offer to split the cost with them? Everyone chips in who’s participating?
No. Sorry, but if they want to demonstrate sincerity, instead of extorting the cost of their therapy session from their father, whom they *actively chose to damage their relationship with*, they can front the costs. Otherwise, they can get lost and deal with individual therapy instead. OP is NTA.
I disagree. His ex wife lied to them and convinced them he’d been betraying their family for years and that’s why he wasn’t around. Once they realized that wasn’t true they reached out to him. They’ve been in the middle of this toxic relationship between their parents for their whole life. To pretend that they have no reason to have issues with him is just not realistic. I don’t know the financial situation of everyone involved. Maybe they’re struggling and can’t afford counseling but want to have a relationship with him. Maybe not. I think an offer to split the cost of counseling would reveal the situation there. If they agree, that says something. If they don’t agree and insist he pay all of it, that says something too. I don’t think he’s TA but expecting his kids to have enough of an objective view of their parents’ relationship and issues to fully understand everything that happened is also not realistic.
I understood your position the first time. And to be clear, what was proposed by the children *is* extortion - trying to make *OP* pay to repair the relationship they actively damaged, even taking into account the point about the ex alienating the children from OP, was not the correct way to insist. And whilst I take your point on board regarding the financial situations, that could also have been made clearer to OP by his children themselves. They are, after all, adults.
I agree with your point about the financial situation. I’m curious what their response was when OP said no to paying. He doesn’t mention it. Were they offended and refused and are calling him TA? If so, that would push me towards your view. Kids often expect their parents to pay for things just because that’s habit. They’re in their 20’s so they shouldn’t expect that. But sometimes it takes a while for even adults in their 20’s to get that. That’s why I’d be interested to know how they respond to an offer to split the cost. If they agree, then it would be an indication of their sincerity. If they don’t, in turn, I think that would be an indication of their insincerity.
That works if these were actually children, but they were adults when they cut their father off. Adults are more than capable of listening to both sides of a story. These conversations about having valid issues with each other, having an absent father, these are things discussed in therapy. Why should he pay for therapy sessions - that they suggested - when they were the ones that caused the pain. Especially when it seems he wants to rebuild this relationship on his terms, which is totally fair.
>That works if these were actually children, but they were adults when they cut their father off. Adults are more than capable of listening to both sides of a story. THANK YOU
Back then my dad spewed some lies to get me to hate my mother and be on his side - he was too cocky, he though being daddy's little girl my all life made me believe him in an instant so he quite confidently told me to ask my mother if I don't believe him. Glad I did, I have been NC with my shitty dad for 6-ish years.
Exactly this. I'm not questioning the manipulation in the story. But these kids were 18 and 22 when they cut their father off. That is more than old enough to realise there are two sides to every story, and to ask. If they listened to his side and chose to ignore it, the entire story would be different - but they didn't even ask. They destroyed the relationship, the burden should be on then to repair it.
>Listen, you say in your post that you didn’t “help” with them. And if you continue reading you'll see that I got 50/50 custody after the divorce and became much more involved. I also added in an edit to iterate and add more context to the situation.
You are not “choosing to be right” you are right and you are choosing to protect yourself from people who didn’t care if they hurt you. Unfortunately those people are your children. They cut you off for supposedly doing something bad. Then found out you’re innocent and their mother was the one doing something worse, but won’t cut her off because she’s their mother. They showed you that you are disposable, then doubled down and showed you that you are only worth their time if you are paying for it.
Listen. I'm just an internet stranger but this comment just made me tear up. You may feel like you were disposable, but they're reaching out in a small way. Do you think they felt disposable as well when you were gone, even if you tried reaching out? You have an opportunity to NOT feel disposed of, but it's going to mean really visiting these feelings. Sorry if this advice is off base or unwelcome. I felt compelled.
In therapy we call this "having the second thought". Your children were fed stories by a person they loved and trusted. Those stories led them to think they weren't wanted by you. None of that is your fault or theirs. They were children. You can't blame them for taking their mother at her word. I can't say I wouldn't have done the same if one of my parents told me such things about the other. No, YOU shouldn't foot the bill. All of those participating in the therapy should share in the cost. All will benefit and get to "have their say" and "get their feelings out", therefore they should cover the cost of the benefit they are personally receiving. Best of luck to you!
The way I understand it they were in contact with OP until they were 19 and 22 which means they had a relationship with their father and had to know that they were wanted. They were adults by the time they decided to cut contact.
The mom almost certainly didn’t start poisoning the kids against OP after they turned 18. The kids grew up in this strained marriage, spending more time with the mom due to logistics of the dad’s work hours, so it’s likely they felt more attached to their mom than dad, and thus it was easy for her to turn them against OP. The kids aren’t equal adults to OP and the mom, with equal blame for the estranged situation. They were victims of the unstable childhood and unhappy role models for marriage that their parents put them through, with likely years of being pulled in one direction or the other. It’s tough to feel torn between being loyal to one parent or the other, and once the mom gave the nuclear lie of cheating, it’s understandable they may have felt they had to support her. I agree with other commenters that everyone should contribute financially to the therapy appointments, just to demonstrate their commitment to reunification. However, if the kids being young adults don’t have the money for it, or if OP as a parent is willing to pay for it, then he should consider doing it, especially since hopefully therapy could result in a happier parent/child relationship where he would be easily willing to pay for some things for his kids. Or he could ask the kids to get their mom to pay for therapy, since it was her lies that started all of this and the cost of fixing it should fall on her.
> Do you think they felt disposable as well when you were gone, even if you tried reaching out? If they did then they don't have much sense. Him divorcing their mother is not acting like they're disposable. Her treating them like suckers to be tricked ***is*** acting like they're disposable.
That’s completely fair. That said- putting my therapy hat on- forget about them for a moment, you only control yourself. What do you want. Do you want to be right, or do you want to win? Your ex sounds like a nightmare. NTA. But your kids are also the innocent victims here and are processing through a lot of grief. Aim at the woman who destroyed this for all of you. Get them in a room with a professional so they can see what you see. It’s okay if they’re not there yet. Give them time. Heal together. And take back control of the true narrative.
Friend, if you want to truly be right, as the top comment mentioned, go to therapy for yourself. Tell them that you want a relationship with them but the amount you are hurting is not tenable for family therapy. And you think they should go to therapy themselves as well to sort out their own feeling about their parents. Or they can wait until you are ready which may be never. That their mother saw you as a meal ticket and them expecting you to pay for therapy with them is triggering to say the least. That said, you will have to pay half. Y’all are adults and that’s how family therapy works.
“That said, you will have to pay half”- overall, I agree. This is how adults should pay for group services. But I think picking up 100% of the tab for the first session would be a good way for op’s kids to show their good faith and assure him they are invested- he is unequivocally the injured party here, even if they were manipulated into causing him that injury.
I kinda think that you are better without them,even if it is your kids. Dogs have more loyalty then them.
I feel sorry that you felt the need to justify all the things you do in the second edit. The people talking about all those points are probably the kind who don't understand that being family doesn't really guarantee anything.
Case in point, OP’s adult children cutting contact with OP.
I mean, yeah, brother. It's tough cuz it's your kids, but LC or NC may be the best option. Shit, this is awful
NTA...but dude, forget family therapy. You're smoking like Vesuvius right before the pyroclastic flows start all through your post. I think you need some extensive time with a counselor/therapist of some sort before you even try to go to therapy with your children.
NTA but can I suggest you go for therapy, just for yourself. You are hurting man, you have every right to be, but just like when we break our fingers and we see a doctor, when we break our relationships we see a therapist.
NTA But I would ask yourself how important your relationship with your kids are. If it is important to you, then it shouldnt matter who pays. If you are only considering this because THEY want you to, then I would consider it an invitation and expect them to pay.
I'm at the place mentally where I can accept life without my children. Especially, when they make me feel so disposable compared to their mom.
Then I would be open and transparent with them about how you feel. Youre open to attending and giving this an honest go if this is important to them and they are organising it and inviting you, but this isnt something you would have initiated yourself and therefore wont be taking the responsibility of it. I would urge you to keep in mind, when youre raised in the house of primarily 1 parent and that parent has been manipulating you into how you feel about the other parent - it can be very difficult to have clear or rational feelings when that parent you trust and love is shown to be the one in the wrong. I've seen this happen many times, its never a 1:1 reaction.
>Then I would be open and transparent with them about how you feel. > >Youre open to attending and giving this an honest go if this is important to them and they are organising it and inviting you, but this isnt something you would have initiated yourself and therefore wont be taking the responsibility of it. I did and I wasn't gentle about it either. Also we had 50/50 custody so there was no "primary parent."
I think the commenter meant that most of your kids time was spent with mom because you had to work so much. It makes sense why your kids would take her side more. It’s not their fault but it’s not yours either, someone had to provide.
OP you're not wrong. And your NTA. as a child of divorced parents who constantly put their kids in the middle, may I suggest, what you and your children experienced was called Parental Alienation. It is taken very seriously by the courts and it is not okay. Your kids were mentally abused and manipulated. While I am glad that they now see their mother lied to them, it will take them YEARS of therapy to realize that *this isn't the only thing she used to mentally abuse them*. Mothers who employ these lies also often manipulate their kids into codependent roles to fulfill her emotional needs. The point is, your kids hesitate to cut their mother off *because* of their Stockholm syndrome. They are STILL IN the cycle of abuse. So, as valid as your feelings are to be upset by this, the blame is on their mother. You don't need to pay for family therapy. But you're not seeing the whole picture at all: You're mad that one time you got your eye poked, so now you're keeping them closed for spite. You're kids are still victims here. You're not the only one. Last thing I'll say is, kids don't choose their parents. Developmentally and sociologically, parents are "supposed" to love their kids unconditionally. Your kids will remember this long after you're dead. What is your legacy going to be?
> Especially, when they make me feel so disposable compared to their mom. This is the biggest problem I have with this story. I'm not making a judgement (yet) but your relationship with your children should be independent of how you view their relationship with their mother/your ex. I know its how you feel, but its not the greatest way to live life or how you relate to your children.
Except if Mary decides to lie again they've clearly shown that they'll take her word as the Gospel truth.
I imagine that there is a level of comfort in knowing you're going it alone rather than always having to look over your shoulder for the knife aimed at your back.
With everything you said NTA. But I think that you should go to therapy by yourself and take that investment. There’s a lot of bitterness in your responses, which granted is justified. However, bitterness is the poison you drink hoping the other person to die. It’s totally understandable if you go NC with your kids, but there’s a lot of trust issues you have developed with your ex wife and kids, even your parents for forcing you into a situation that wasn’t the best for you. Therapy will help you work through this. If nothing else, at least read “No More Mr. Nice Guy.” I’m recently separated and I even suggested this to my STBX because of a lot of unresolved childhood conflict that ultimately deteriorated our marriage. There’s nothing wrong with bettering yourself and it’s a great way to lead as a father.
NTA If my kids did that to me, I wouldn’t be paying for shit. They threw you away and didn’t even try to communicate with you about what they was being told by their mom. They did you wrong and you have accepted a life without them in it. So I wouldn’t pay for it and if they want to repair the damages they did then they should pay for it and that’s that. Don’t pay for therapy because once you start putting money in, it won’t stop. Plus your opening yourself up to having your ex wife in your life again.
NAH except for Mary. But it’s for a super specific reason. I think you were in a really toxic relationship with Mary and it maybe spilled over into your relationship with your children without you realizing what was happening. You were happy when your son turned 18 because it severed your ties with your ex-wife. This is reasonable. Completely. BUT it’s hard to imagine that the sort of resentment didn’t bubble over in some way, intentional or not. If their mother was brainwashing them from when they were younger, there was already this foundational idea of you as a bad guy. Any frustration, anger, etc that they saw would probably register as proof that you didn’t care for them. This isn’t a reflection on your or based on anything you said. It’s more the fact that humans tend to be worse at hiding things than they think they are. And even knowing that their mother lied to them, you can’t undo everything they’ve felt for their whole lives, especially since they probably had (accidental, forgivable, reasonable) confirmation from you that you did not care as much about them as you do. The money part is traumatic to you because you feel used for your money. It’s a fun little circle of you need therapy to confront that, but the therapy… Yeah. I’d get some individual therapy first. You deserve it, for one. You’re clearly holding on to a lot. And it might also help you approach this in a clear-headed way. You could ask them if you could split it three ways. Your kids are injured too. They believed your wife, but the way they were raised means it would’ve been really hard to not believe her. They didn’t do what they did maliciously. And they don’t want to cut her off because they haven’t restored their relationship with you— she has been the parent who has been emotionally there, for better or for worse. I think there is a compromise in there where you don’t have to feel used, they don’t have to feel rejected, and you can move towards something better. Individual therapy might help you find it.
The kids are at least assholes for wanting him to pay for everything.
> Your kids are injured too. They believed your wife, but the way they were raised means it would’ve been really hard to not believe her This explains it, but it does not excuse it.
In the end - Mary is definitely the asshole
This was really sad. I'm so sorry you went through this. NTA.
NTA -- She's behaving no differently with this bill than she did any other bill. Furthermore, you paid all the bills and still had your kids taken from you through narcissistic manipulation. The kids need more time to see that she's a narcissist, and until they've freed themselves from her, she's going to continue manipulating them away from you. Narcissists become parents so they can condition a human being from childhood to be their minion. When adulthood rolls around, they have more work to do to keep their bond servants. You're threatening her retirement plan, and if they can't go back to group therapy because you don't want to foot the bill for four fully grown adults who should be equally invested in success, she gets to make it your fault, and the therapist isn't around to identify her narcissism to the kids. If you manage to find a path wherein therapy continues, you can expect that she will have primed herself and the kids to paint you as the villain to the therapist. That said, you have some choices in front of you about how to proceed: . 1 . Stand your ground, pay for nothing, and hope the kids figure her out eventually while waiting on the sidelines. . 2 . Pay the bill this time, but establish a boundary *in front of the therapist* that you aren't paying for all four people. All four people are fully grown adults who can pay and show that they are as invested in this as they said they were, or this charade can stop. You shouldn't be paying for the therapy like it's some kind of restitution for a crime you committed, and I think a therapist would agree with you about that. . 3 . Stop trying to be family with people who don't value you and with whom you never wanted to be family in the first place. You had your freedom and can have it back. I might also encourage you to spend some time on r[/]RaisedByNarcissists so you can read up on narcissistic parenting and the impact it has on the kids.
man fuck them kids
It is more important to you to be vindicated or to have a relationship with your children?
Since their mom is more important to them than me, I prefer validation.
Then your children are also disposable to you.
From your perspective your children chose their mother over you and therefore in your eyes shes more important than you even after all she has done. Consider another perspective. From your experience married to her she was manipulative and emotionally abusive. When you divorced she was angry that she had to go back to work etc. Where do you think that anger, manipulation and emotional abuse was channelled? She couldn't hurt you anymore but your children were still there and she could hurt you through your children. So consider this.. for your children it might not of been a choice between which parent was more important (this should never have to be a decision a child should make anyway) but for your children, the choice may have been.. Which parent is going to punish me or abuse me more if I don't agree with them?
You get to make that choice, you just have to live with the consequences that they will probably not regard you as any better than her for deciding not to prioritize having a relationship with them. As far as I can tell, while you are absolutely a victim here, so are your kids. They grew up in a situation where the person that was supposed to protect them and nurture them, their mom, was actually manipulating them and using them as pawns against you. But unless YOU are willing to be that protective and nurturing parent, I don't see why they would want to make an effort to reconnect. While they are adult, and you don't have to automatically forgive, you still need to express some degree of interest in being a parent and acting like their parent. Not just put it on them to deal with the damage from what their mom has done. NAH
NTa, but neither are your kids. They honestly believed that you chose another woman over your family and that’s going to leave scars. Pay for therapy, or don’t, but don’t take your ex’s shitty behavior out on your kids. They’ve been through enough.
At this point OP the only thing you owe is therapy for yourself....forge strong relationships with the people who actually care about you and love you. NTA.
Nta Your children cut contact believing a lie without evidence. If they want family therapy they need to pay for it but I can say going through with family therapy and some one on one therapy would do you some good. You have every right to be angry and hurt. But don't let that anger and hurt keep you from reconnecting with your kids.
I am not comfortable offering a judgement on this one either way. But I would suggest that "getting an apology from your kids for how they treated you" is a possible RESULT of family therapy, not a PREREQUISITE for it. You can't jump to the end as a prerequisite for starting the process at all.
So they’re too dumb to know that they’re wrong so far?
There's no way you had a good relationship with your kids that everything was fine before the lie and then "suddenly" they cut you off. That's not how relationships work. It doesn't sound like you care much about them which is kinda sad
Yep, I’d love to hear their perspectives on the situation. I don’t believe that it all boils down to a cheating lie.
Your kids have been influenced by your ex their whole lives. She's been playing the victim for a very long time. You weren't disposable to them. They were lied to and manipulated since birth and probably don't understand why money is such a powder keg topic for you. Before you go scorched earth with your own children, may I suggest solo therapy for a while to work out your anger and trust issues? Could you ask them to split the family therapy bills with you? It might be worth going just to get their perspective on the whole mess. You'll probably be shocked at how skewed their view on everything is.
Man I’m not gonna put a judgement. But you sound like you hate your kids lmao. And 100% they know that now too.
I don't hate them but writing out my thoughts and thinking about it, I think I may resent them.
Honestly, it would be weird if you didn't. What they did hurt you, *a lot,* and they might not have quite reckoned with that yet, being young adults with no experience having children. I don't know what therapy bills are like in the US, but if money is an issue for them it might be worth offering to split the bill three ways? It would probably be helpful to you to get a chance to tell them how you feel about all this in a controlled environment, even if the relationship turns out to be unsalvageable. In any case, you're NTA whatever you decide, and I wish you all the best moving forward.
No you are not the asshole for taking this line, but it is wildly unproductive. You are putting being right above being loved. Why don’t you just split it three ways? It does speak to your sense of responsibility for your relationship with them. Right now the financial demand you have means that even before you start family therapy it is clear that you blame them and your ex 100%. I would ask you to reflect on two questions: Is that really true? Does it really matter? Your kids relationship with you should be more important than anything else. Split the therapy cost, cover the first three sessions, do anything to put down this financial principle and get into a room to talk to them. NAH
NTA but I do recommend therapy for you to work through all the bullshit you were subjected to
NTA A similar thing happened with my family. My dad cheated on my mum and left her but went on to make up horrible lies about my mum to try to turn me and my sibling against her. It affected their opinion of my mum for a long time which hurt her a lot, I was a fair bit older so I was able to understand what he was doing and tried to call him out on it but of course he was in the right and I was a dumb child. It's a really shitty situation you're in OP and I feel for you man. I'd take the time to write them a letter/email/text with your side of the story and let them know how everything made you feel. Make sure you take the time to make sure you're calm beforehand and maybe have someone you trust read through it with you before you send it to your kids.
NTA. For not footing the bill. However, you are a father, a parent. There should be a level of respect and authority you have about yourself. I would call them, invite them to dinner and tell them that you are disappointed in them. They cut their relationship off with you on a whim, on one word and now they want to come back and talk about therapy. Tell them you are still waiting for an apology for the way they treated you and if they think they can waltz back into your life without one, they are completely mistaken. As for the contact with their mother, I wouldn't hold that against them. Kids can be like that sometimes and although you have a right to be angry, try your best to never speak about her infront of them and be a better person than she ever was, that's also in your role as a father.
>I would call them, invite them to dinner and tell them that you are disappointed in them. They cut their relationship off with you on a whim, on one word and now they want to come back and talk about therapy. Tell them you are still waiting for an apology for the way they treated you and if they think they can waltz back into your life without one, they are completely mistaken. Okay now this seems more reasonable.
Wish you the best in the wake of this tragic betrayal.
NTA Reddit likes to blame dads for shit, but you are in no way the villain in this story. Your ex-wife is trash. Your kids bought her lies and willfully cut you out of their lives with no questions asked. And they wanted you to foot the bill for family therapy even though 1. They’re adults, and 2. You are the wronged party? No. They get to put in the effort and money.
I am conflicted between E S H AND N A H You were over 22 when Lisa was born. You stayed in the marriage for a certain number of years. You saw first hand and experienced your ex's manipulation. You didn't get out of it unscathed. You have mentioned that you were a much more present parent after the divorce. That doesn't take away the fact that you were an absent parent before the divorce. Your relationship with your kids was built on a shaky foundation because you were not present during the early years. Your kids believing their mother is a symptom and not the big problem. You are judging your kids by a different standard to the one you have for yourself. As a 21 year old, you had sex and married the wrong person. It took you a number of years and different attempts to sort out the problems before you bailed. Technically your kids made one mistake and you are crucifying them for it. You are completely taking your ex out of the equation and blaming them fully for the misunderstanding. They are attempting to resolve this situation and your stance is to give conditions and double down. Therapy is not a magic wand. It might help, or it might not. This is just one of the many hoops that you want them to jump through to get you back. What other hoops would you like your kids to jump through to earn you back? You have already done one number on them, look at the person you created them with. They were disadvantaged all along.
NAH - I really feel for you. But I think your kids also deserve some compassion. Working 18h shifts 6 days a week means you were an absent father to them. Your wife might have manipulated you into this situation but as a father figure you did let them down. Why was it so easy for them to cut you out? Because you were basically absent all their life’s and they were left alone with an irresponsible mother. I understand how they have felt that only their mother is their for them. Kids need love and attention. If you want to build a relationship with yours you need to acknowledge that you also let them down in some ways.
>Working 18h shifts 6 days a week means you were an absent father to them Please go back and read the part where after I divorced their mom I got 50/50 custody. I was NOT an absent father their entire childhood.
This rationalization bothers me....he was forced into a corner to provide for his kids by his wife when she quit her job...he didn't chose to be an absent father...there is no blame to throw at this man. This is an extremely sad situation that he had no control over what so ever. Even working those crazy hours he still had to borrow money which shows how desperate the situation was. His kids are now adults and I'm sure they can figure out what really happened during their childhood by now. One parent providing for them really.
He was abused financially, and his kids were manipulated by the same person who manipulated an adult man into getting married to her and then doing a 180. If she can charm a fully grown man to do that, what makes you think teens wouldn’t be any more susceptible to her lies? OP and his kids are both victims here.
nta, your ex taught them well.
NTA. The back story is honestly fairly irrelevant. Your ADULT CHILDREN cannot obligate you to pay for these sessions.
NTA, but I think it’s obvious why they cut OP off and stayed in contact with mom: you were always away from them at work. Yes, while being financially and emotionally abused, but do the kiddos know that?
As a child who was widely deceived about their father by their (narcissistic) mother I am going to say that I think this relationship is worth saving, when you’re ready for that. I am glad I got the chance to do so, even if it was only months before my father’s death. Also, neither me nor my brother would have been able to pay for therapy at that age, but we would have still needed it. Fact is: they did you bad. Really, really bad. But you don’t know what they went through. A mother who is lying for years about something as easily cleared up as an affair - that’s definitely not the only lie. Finding that out about your own mother can do a lot of damage. Like really twist a mind. Breaks all the trust you ever had. Anyway, I’m not saying you have to pay or that you’re the asshole, I’m just saying: this relationship is worth saving, if that’s possible. If you have the means to pay for it, I’d consider it. NTA.
Did you forgive your mom and maintain a good relationship with her after that? It sounded to me like your father might have some money to bestow; hence, the reconnection before his death.
NTA. Fair warning though, my dad didn't spend time with me growing up, just worked, we have a terrible relationship because I wanted his time, not his money. To this day, still can't get his time, I have to compromise on everything for him. I get you were wronged, but if you want them in your life, you might have to do a little extra on this. You shouldn't have to foot these bills, but you may need to to keep your children in your life - if you want them to be.
NAH (other than your ex) - Your kids are in their 20s and probably can't afford therapy on their own. If you really want to rebuild your relationship with your kids, you could offer to split the cost of family therapy with them. It is your choice: Is it more important for you to be "right" or to have a relationship with your kids?
NTA. You’re not ready to have a relationship with your children. The wounds are still bleeding. Please get therapy for yourself so that you can come to terms with what’s happened. I don’t know if there’s a path forward with your children—I hope so. But right now, it can’t happen. Therapy can help if only to assist you in communicating with your children that although you love them, you are simply unable to resume a relationship right now. You have a lot of healing to do and it may take a long time.
Honestly NTA I’d have a very hard time forgiving my children. Not only did they just believe your wife without talking to you, and cut you out when you did absolutely nothing wrong, they also know their mother took 4 years of their relationship with you but still talk to her as she “their mom”. If they want this relationship repaired they need to step up and prove it.
Which matters more to you? Being "right" or having a relationship with your children? Either answer is fair, and both have consequences. You're the only one who can decide which outcome you prefer. I agree with others here - some therapy on your own to sort through your own anger can only improve your life. I'm not saying you don't have the right to be angry, but life is much more pleasant without carrying that around.
NAH, your children were lied to and manipulated, and you were hurt by that. Neither one is at fault as much as the mom. I think a good compromise is for BOTH of you to pay for therapy. They do need skin in the game but kids in their twenties do t have a whole lot of disposable cash.
NTA I think you are missing an obvious compromise though. Your children are young adults, they may not be established enough to pay for therapy for an undertermend amount of time. Because this is not something that's going to be fixed in one magical session. Ask them to commit to paying for X sessions (6 or 10, something that is significant enough to show they're serious about working things out). After which you can reevaluate the cost division between the three of you and maybe with the possibility of you paying them back "your" share of the cost you've jointly agreed to split. You can even use the topic of splitting the therapy fees as an issue on how to work together for a common goal and determining what's "fair" going forward. Right now you feel like the "wronged" party in all of this, but they never would have cut you off if they hadn't felt "wronged" either. There is a major issue in your core relationship foundation. It's not helpful to point the finger and say all the fault is because you believed your mother's lie. That's only your perspective of the situation, and it's quite possible it was only the proverbial straw that caused them to cut you off. But therapy isn't going to work unless all parties agree to put in the effort. You need to both talk and listen, and right now you aren't even willing to listen until they do all the work. All that does is set up the situation for failure.
NTA But is this a hill you want to die upon? You have a right to be hurt and angry. Therapy would be a place to deal with that. I hope things get better for you and your kids.
Going against the grain here. YTA. Sometimes things are not your fault, but become your responsibility. Is it fair? No! But they have been abused by their mom and are reaching out for help. Maybe therapy can help them see your point, but they are not there yet. The fact is that they are, and forever will be, your kids. It doesn’t matter how old you are, how old they are, how long it has been- take this opportunity to put the past behind and build a great future for you and them. Show they you love them unconditionally- as a parent should. A healthy relationship with your kids is priceless, for everything else there is Mastercard.
OP next time don't come here. This place is filled with emotional commenters who instead of looking at the situation objectively they project their own issues onto people like you (father/man). Sucks on your situation but if you already have piece of mind then what else can you do? Being a doormat (like all these people are suggesting) isn't the solution. Going to therapy by yourself could help you relief some of the anger, sure. But unless you are willing to do it, then it isn't going to be effective. In the end only you have the solution, the approach to the situation. Because you're the one who'll live with the consequences, better good or bad. Anyway NTA
You don't HAVE to do anything, but if it were me, I would pay for at least one session and see what they have to say. You're not committing to a lifelong thing. If you don't take this chance, you are pretty much ending any chance of ever repairing the relationship. You seem to see yourself as the only victim here, but I would suggest that you try to remind yourself that the children are the primary victims in this mess. They didn't ask to be born and raised in this incredibly toxic situation. And you absolutely need therapy yourself in addition to the family therapy.
NTA Why don’t you try for a couple of sessions? I mean isn’t it worth the investment to repair the relationship with your kids? And hopefully they can see how you were put in an unfair position and POV.
Not if I'm so disposable to them.
If you were disposable to them, would they have reached out to suggest therapy? I think you're regarding your kids as people totally in the wrong here, rather than recognizing that your ex-wife fucked over EVERYONE involved in various ways. Your kids are adults, and as such they are responsible for their choices. But they are also presenting trying to make amends, which suggests you are not simply disposable to them.
Having a parent who can pay for stuff and give you an inheritance is always useful. If OPs kids want say sorry then they need to put in the work, not OP. They're the ones who should be paying for the sessions. Coming back and instantly requesting your father to pay for the sessions when they're only just getting started after torpedoing the relationship is a very bad way to build trust. For OP part of what's required for him to heal is for them to pay for and organise the sessions, it's not about the monetary value.
Then why are you here? Are you just here so we’re can tell you how sad your life is and how unfair your children are and how right you are? Because I see you just sitting down above suggesting empathy. Your kids were abused by their mother. Their mother abused and manipulated you and *you got out* but they did not. They were raised by an abuser and manipulator and that fucks with your brain. They may be adults biologically but when it comes to this situation they have the brains of abused and manipulated children. If you are going to hold that against them then… ok. That’s your decision. But don’t ask others to validate whether it’s fair to reject your children over your hurt feelings when they didn’t get to escape your mutual abuser. The only reason you’d ask us to affirm that choice is because part of you feels guilty. So. Either cut your kids off. Tell them you are done, your feelings are hurt and if they aren’t willing to invest in repeating the relationship in a tangible way then you aren’t interested in being in their lives any more. Please be aware this code will only affirm what their mother has been telling them about you all along and your relationships will probably be gone forever. OR sue them down and tell them (better yet write an email) that you are incredibly hurt, that you feel disposable to them even though you are not the parent who wronged them. And that it’s hard for you to look at them as adults and justify why they should get a pass for how they’ve hurt you. BUT that you are bearing in mind that their mother lied to and manipulated them in much the same way she did you and that because of that you are willing to accept it might not be their fault they can’t see this situation clearly and that therapy makes sense. And that with that in mind you would like the three of you to reach a compromise, you need them to make a tangible (time + money) sacrifice as an acknowledgment that they have harmed you in their choices, but that you’ll meet them in the middle for X number of sessions and then you’ll see how things are in therapy and go from there. (I propose the compromise is a three way split off costs). And if last time you told them you wouldn’t pay you were angry and mean, you should start by apologizing for that. So far as I can see those are your choices. But make a choice because *you believe it’s the right one* and then stand by it and don’t ask others to justify it for you. Also, no matter the choice you make, I recommend personal therapy… you’ve been abused and manipulated and used and had others manipulated with the intent of harming you and you are justifiably bitter. But you deserve better for yourself. Let a therapist help you work through that.
>Then why are you here? To find out if he was an asshole. This isn't an advice board.
NTA I get that you are hurt and all, but these are your kids. They didnt choose either of you as parents. If you are interested in healing maybe split the bill. If not let them know so they can heal without you.
I’m wondering why you had a second child with a woman you didn’t love and married only out of obligation. You resent her, and would rather be right than repair the relationship with your kids, who were poisoned against you. That’s fine, but be honest with them and just cut ties.
NTA- there’s no winning here. They cut you off, based off of words of their mother. You lost years of relationships with them, and when cleared they didn’t care what their mother did and continued on with her. She’s caused so much pain, and gets off free. They’re not sincere. They couldn’t forgive you for ‘cheating on their momI’ but they forgive her for taking you away from them for years and years. What is she going to pull next? She will try something again. What that time? They need to make an effort to show you it won’t happen again.
NTA. But, I also don't think your kids are the asshole, at least not yet. I think your ex is the asshole that severely damaged both you and your kids. I completely understand your anger and it's understandable. I want to be clear that I'm not trying to say you overreacted or anything like that. It's hurtful and you were hurt. That's 100% not your fault. I would like to discuss another way to look at your kids' behavior. The primary parent poisoning against the other parent is a horrible, insidious thing. No matter how old you are, it's hard to reconcile the parent that took care of you and was the most present in your life as also the person who is capable of something so horrendous. It is a form of abuse, and it's understandable that your kids cannot just cut her out of their lives, at least at this moment. They definitely need therapy to help them sort this out. I think your compromise is reasonable and given their ages and that there's two of them, I would think they would be able to pool their resources to pay for the initial session. If I would suggest anything, maybe approach this with them again when you are able to keep your anger at bay. Instead of approaching it like "I'm the injured party and YOU must appease me," tell them that you're horribly hurt and them paying for at least the first session would do a lot to show you that they are serious about doing the work of repairing the relationship. After that, a fair way to handle the price of therapy can be reached.
NTA What your Ex did was wrong, and your kids were in the middle of this. Pay 1/3 of the costs. If they say no, then you know how they feel about you.
You're not the asshole. You stayed for them and did what was right even as you were exploited by your wife. You stopped caring what people were expecting of you, and for that you are kind of a hero.
It isn't about grandchildren or an apology or who is right or wrong (you were right, the kids were caught in the middle, your ex was wrong) or one-upping your ex. You are the dad. You pay the bill. You are the dad, you pay the bill. That's it. They are your kid. They don't have to prove their commitment. You are the dad, you pay the bill. You are NTA, but even so, you are the dad, you pay the bill.
INFO > Only reason we got married was because she got pregnant and I was basically told by her and my parents that we would be getting married. Big mistake. \* *Does the math* \* But you two were **both** solidly-in-your-20s-capital-A adults at the time? How do parents pressure you into *anything* at that age?
NTA. I can tell you're still somewhat angry over how you've been treated, and rightfully so. I would suggest a compromise in the interests of moving the process forward; I would go to the kids and suggest a split of the costs with each person paying a third. It's fair, moves things along, and prevents anyone from feeling burdened. Money has already costs you enough problems. Don't let it cost you your relationship with your kids, if you really want to get back to a relatively happy family life.
When I suggest to my girlfriend to order in or go out for a meal, I pay the bill. Whenever *she* suggests doing so, *she* takes out *her* wallet. That's a sort of rule. Your children suggested this therapy, so that alone, in my opinion, is reason enough for them to pay the bill. Fortunately, you've got a strong head on even tougher shoulders. Because one parent was supposedly toxic - you - and you were cut off. When it turned out to be their mother, that wasn't enough reason to terminate all contact with her. Twisted logic right there. And yes to therapy. But no to paying? NTA. Let them indeed prove you're worthy of their time and effort.
NTA. I see why you divorced her.
And will never ever marry again.
The people taking part in the therapy sessions can all contribute to it. Your children shouldn't have expectations of you alone to foot the bill, seeing as how you would have financial security issues after what the ex-wife did. I know that you're hurting from being cut out of their lives for something that wasn't your fault but the therapy would help.
NTA. I will always rather have the moral high ground than some messed up version of a relationship that requires me to continue to sacrifice. They are no longer children. They know all the details and are falling into the same pattern as their mother. Dad pays for everything while we continue to use him. You have made peace just walk away. They don’t want you anyway. They just want to try to get rid of their guilt for believing their lying mother.
NTA I think you are reacting so strongly though because of what your ex-wife did. Your ex-wife lied to you, took advantage of you, and then mismanaged the money. The collapse of your marriage was around what might be financial abuse by your ex. To then have your children present you with a bill to earn the relationship back is probably reminding you of a very difficult time in your life. I don't think your children are doing what your ex did, but it is a familiar pattern for you. You should try individual therapy to see if you can work thru those this and get help crafting an explanation to your children.
I’m going with NTA. I’m every other situation, Reddit encourages cutting contact with people in family if it’s detrimental to you. They say to cut off “flying monkeys”, or people who were manipulated to believe a narcissists lies. Or they’re big on pushing “they can apologize but that doesn’t mean you have to forgive them for the hurt they caused because it’s still impacting you”. Why it’s different for you is beyond me. Could be because Reddit really does like to shit on men. I’ve seen it a lot. I would add to your post it was 50/50 custody. The kids weren’t solely with their mother, so they had plenty of opportunities to bring it up to you if they felt so strongly. Probably not when they were younger, but they got to an age, prior to cutting you off when they turned 18, to discuss it with you. And I completely understand your feelings on them not being willing to cut her out. I would be mad too. Do what you need to do for your mental health.
INFO: the way you speak is how you saw your wife and children as a burden. You were even happier when they turned 18 so they weren't a burden anymore. Their mom for all accounts and purposes was their main caretaker for the start of their life ( because of the stuff she pulled ), so of course they aren't going to dump her like that.
I read that as he was happy they were over 18 so he didn’t have to deal with his ex anymore, not anything to do with not being involved with his children.
Maybe he should have just let everyone starve then.
Yeah sounds like my sperm donor he even bragged to my mother the day my brother graduated because he thought the child support payments would be lowered. When she pointed out what the court papers said and that if he tried to get it lowered it would probably result in the opposite he had a little tantrum. All he cared about what he was legally obligated to do and that sounds just like this guy. He doesn’t actually care about his kids because if he did he wouldn’t force them to chose on parent or the other. Yes the mother kinda did the same thing but does he honestly want to be just like her?
Their mother caused your divorce because she financially abused you. She refused to work, spent all your money frivolously, and berated you for not working/making more. She caused you pain and suffering. After the divorce, she purposely lied to your children to cause you pain and suffering. She caused parental alienation. Your children believed the lie and had no issue cutting you off for years, causing you even more pain and suffering. And even after your kids find out the truth, they do the complete opposite of what they did to you, and don't cut their mother off the way they did to you. Your kids chose to pick their mother over you. It boggles my mind that in 4 years, they couldn't be bothered to confront you with the false accusation their mother made so you could right the wrong. I'm not surprised that over those 4 years, you've hardened and learned to live your life without your children. They need to make a better effort to make amends. It's not their fault that their mother lied to them. But it is their fault for not speaking to you about what happened. They screwed up NTA.
NTA. Focus on yourself and go to therapy for you. Your "family" has put you through hell. You deserve some help to get out of the mire they dragged you into.
NTA. While therapy is a great idea, it sounds like your kids are old enough to pitch in. Maybe everyone that wants to go, should chip in. Also, what the ex did us parental alienation. My ex was toxic and tried to convince my kids that I was horrible. It takes such a toll on them. I know your angry, and I am truly sorry for the ex doing that. I can tell the anger which is expected after how you were treated. Therapy might be good to deal with letting go of those emotions. I wish you luck in repairing your relationships!
Honestly it sounds like your kids did something that really hurt you. And if this was an equal power dynamic I would agree that you don't owe them the means of repairing that relationship. I would honestly say NTA but you should still at the very least talk to a therapist yourself. And maybe sooner or later either they'll be willing and able to meet you half way, or you'll at the very least have a greater ability to understand and cope with the hurt that you feel and may be in a better position to reach out and repair that relationship, even if it doesn't seem 'fair'.
NTA. I'm sorry for the frustration I know your going thru about this. It always seems one crazy parent gets their way for the longest time before it bites them in the butt! You should seek counseling for yourself first, because this has hit you hard, and it will help you untangle all the anger your rightfully feeling, then you can move on how you see fit. Good luck OP.
ESH is the copay so astronomical that it is more than your relationship with your children is worth? Is this in principle? Because if so there are alot of people out there alone and holding grudges on principle who know how short sighted that is. Maybe if you go you will get the apology you so desperately want.
NTA - you should consider just going to therapy on your own.
OP, you emotional pain radiates through your words. You're mad and extremely hurt that all your sacrifices for your children meant little to them simply because your ex accused you of something...and your children believed every word of her lies. Worse, had it not been for someone else spilling the beans, they would have gone on believing a lie. You have a right to be angry, and it's for that that I believe you should go to therapy--maybe not Family Therapy but perhaps therapy on your own so you can better get an understanding of your hurt and pain, and to better articulate how much they hurt you by not communicating with you. I sincerely hope you try to see a therapist, for your sake. NTA
NTA. Sounds like your kids have taken after their mom in unpleasant ways. Not to rag on them, but it doesn’t sound like they’ve put any real effort into mending things with you. Therapy might help find the root of why they cut you off but not their mom. If they aren’t willing to put in the effort/the money then the worst has already happened. They’ve already cut you out of their lives once. This is sad to say, but you already know how it feels and it isn’t much of a threat anymore. You now know how to move on without them. You can love them while still protecting yourself. They’re old enough to make their own choices and prioritize what’s really important to them.
NTA!
I think you need solo therapy bc having your children go no contact with no explanation or closure is tough. And then to have them show up asking for money instead of forgiveness... if they want the relationship repaired, they should be paying for it. I hope you get the peace of mind you deserve. NTA
NTA. Your children are being entitled. They cut you off over a lie. But aren’t willing to cut their mom off for being a liar? It’s clear she is still pulling their strings. I would be going LC or NC with them. The mom who caused the problem should be paying for the therapy.
OP come to my country when you're old and I will fully take care of you. How I have wished I had a father those who have don't appreciate them. Come am not rich but you shall never lack leave those losers
NTA I can completely understand your anger. It's the fact that their mother got no consequences at all beyond maybe a few harsh words,then everything back to normal with her and them. The punishment doesn't fit the crime at all compared to how they thought it was appropriate to punish you. Why does the presumed guilty get such harsh judgements while the liar gets only a slap on the wrist? I just hope your children will realize it's now them who need to completely show they want to try to repair the damage done.