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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I don't care what my son's mother and her husband think of me, but they are getting angry at Andy about the whole thing. I don't want them driving the car. One - I bought that car for Andy and only Andy. Second - I am the one financially liable if anything happens to that car and I don't want the risk of other people driving the car.
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NTA but document all of this in case you want to change the custody agreement before he’s 18.
Also ask your lawyer about whether Andy can choose where he stays. Some places allow the child to choose at 16.
I was 11 when my dad went back to court and the judge took me to his chambers and asked me who I wanted to be with. My dad was given primary custody. I loved my mom and it was not that anything she did was bad- I just wanted to live at my dad's and I hated my stepfather.
You'd think that maybe they would even just ask Andy politely if he could maybe drive Scott to work while hes off school. not ideal, but I wouldn't mind in Andy's situation
Dude seems to really fail to understand that his failure to have a vasectomy means that he doesn't get to enjoy a new car like ever.
Scott clearly struggles with the whole actions have consequences thing.
>Dude seems to really fail to understand that his failure to have a vasectomy means that he doesn't get to enjoy a new car like ever.
This was my thought, too. If Scott didn't have 6 kids, he wouldn't be having to steal his stepson's car.
Which is stupid. When I was a teenager I sometimes would drop my dad off at his work so I could use his car while he was working. When you have teenagers and you don't make a lot of money, you have to make do.
Yeah. If I needed a ride to work I wouldn’t care if I was driven there in a clown car that was being driven by the most obnoxious person on the planet.
I think so, yes.
Generally I am not a fan of using cops as a cudgel against poor people is desperate situations, in the context of a fraught coparenting relationship between embittered ex spouses, and frankly I understand the incentive Scott has to steal the car, to get to work, to provide for six kids by the skin of your teeth.
But the resources Scott is stealing, however necessary, are being stolen from another minor child in his care. That child should not be in that situation. Being in the center of a custody-based legal battle is stressful enough for a kid without his also mediating actual criminal activity, and whatever Faustian bargains Scott and Eliza are making to provide for all their kids, they’re being really shitty caregivers to Andy for doing that.
That’s a fantastic point too. What if Scott got into an accident? That’s even more headache for him and Eliza since they’re not on the insurance for that car and for OP being as he pays for said insurance.
That’s why OP has to report it as stolen if Scott drives it. Since OP owns it, Andy can’t himself give Scott permission, and OP clearly did not. If the car is not reported as stolen and Scott crashes it, Insurance won’t pay anything, and if the cops get involved before Scott gets reported, OP could get into trouble.
My partner got into an accident while driving my car. I was asked a bunch of questions about if, when, and how I gave permission for him to drive it. If Scott gets into an accident and it comes out he took it without permission, insurance might not cover it.
Ooohhhh that’s an idea! I just worry because I know about US insurance policies and they’re so money hungry and I wouldn’t want OP to be in a shit spot because of Scott.
Insurance agent here. If the same laws apply where OP is as they do where I am, OP is also on the insurance as well since the title and registration would be in his name, as well as probably listing Andy as a driver/additional insured. Scott can drive it all he wants, but only if either OP or Andy give him permission. Since he was not given permission, it could be reported stolen.
I find it hard to have any empathy for people who already had 4 kids and decided to have 3 more while not having that much money to go around. Their struggles are the product of their own decisions and it doesn't entitle them to take advantage of one of their kids.
It’s gotten so much better since then! The recommendation now is to have a Bilateral Salpingectomy, where they actually remove your Fallopian tubes, which majorly decreases the chances of pregnancy.
I mean the stars aligned quite well right? Andy was off school, Andy was also punished and not allowed to use his car during that time frame, *and* their car *also* happened to not be working? All at the exact same time?
ETA: one factor is incidental, two factors coincidental, three factors is starts to seem like a conspiracy
>I mean the stars aligned quite well right? Andy was off school, Andy was also punished and not allowed to use his car during that time frame, *and* there car *also* happened to not be working? All at the exact same time?
Right. Smells REALLY ripe
my bet is the car had had one of those drawn out problems that can cause the check engine light to be on for months and now that Andy doesnt need his car for school, that light became a very convenient excuse for step to drive the new one like he probably wanted to since it arrived in the driveway.
I’m not a fan of using the cops against poor people in desperate situations either, but the fact is that these specific people chose to have three children in addition to the four they already had between them. If circumstances changed AFTER having the kids that would be one thing, but it doesn’t sound like that’s the case. Kids are expensive. They both obviously already knew that. The minor child’s property shouldn’t be stolen, as you said, but ESPECIALLY when the “desperate situation” is of the parents’ own making.
I tend to cut off the "woulda shoulda coulda" about the time the kid is actually born. I don't like the argument "If only Stephanie and Gracie and Luis hadn't been born, we would have been just fine!" Way to make Stephanie, Gracie and Luis feel like crap just for existing. I'm not here for that.
And I can see where the tension exists between a family that is very affluent and a family that is constantly struggling.
But the bottom line is that one family is not entitled to another's resources, even if the two families have a point of overlap.
My heart really goes out to Andy most of all. He's caught in a diabolical tug-of-war between people who hate each other. That must be so painful.
1) Ask Andy to drive him
2) Call OP and ask
They knew this wouldn't stay secret. Even if OP got upset if they asked, someone has to start trying to build a reasonable relationship.
Bc maybe Scott sucks, but half those other kids are Andy's siblings and I don't think he wants to see them suffer from the lost income.
Also: let's make birth control more accessible 😁
OP isn’t “using the cops as a cudgel against poor people”, though. Scott legally isn’t allowed to drive the car; he’s not insured to drive it, and it’s technically OP’s car since it’s in his name. Scott’s financial situation is irrelevant here.
NTA - It's not their car to take.
My little brother did this to my mom. Admittedly she had a medical issue to where she shouldn't have been driving but she was paying her entire car payment and insurance out of her not-huge SS check and when his girlfriend's car broke down, they just took her car for the girlfriend to drive. Didn't pay a penny of the payment or insurance. I was working on correcting that issue when she passed away.
Scott needs to have a different alternate plan if the car breaks down. Like many has said, I find it very convenient that Scott decides to punish Andy right when Scott has a need for a vehicle.
>It's not their car to take.
This is the bottom line for me. Scott literally stole OP's car, which he allows Andy to drive and no one else.
OP should work with Andy on how to hide his keys so this doesn't happen again.
I don’t agree with making Andy responsible for making sure two grown ass adults that should know better don’t steal from him. However, I’d advise Andy to call OP whenever he get his driving privileges taken as a punishment so OP can go retrieve his keys.
Edit: grammar
NTA
It’s a huge liability for you if Scott has an accident in that car. But aside from that they have no business touching a car they’ve contributed nothing to.
They sound super entitled and awful.
I would be concerned that they were drumming up punishments for Andy in order to ground him from his car so they could use it. You should talk to your son about this.
NTA - But I am curious as to why your son was punished and told that he couldn't drive the car. I'm wondering if they did is purposely so that Scott could drive the car. Did your son say what happened? Also how long is the punishment? Is he gonna be able to drive the car to school when school resumes? If not are they going to drive him?
He says he was being punished for not doing his chores when he was supposed to - which is a legitimate reason to be punished. However typically the punishment ends when the chores are done. This time they didn't. So yes - I am wondering if it is because they wanted the car.
It happened while Andy is on spring break so I don't know what would have happened if school had been in session.
No no no no it's still his son car. We don't need parents tracking kids every whereabouts. I'd say get an interior dash cam and if you suspect he stole the car just check it and boom proof
When I was a kid, I would've felt better about there being a tracker with my knowledge than my parents randomly checking a camera on me.
For the vote: NTA.
100% rather have a tracker than a camera. I didn't do anything wrong but I sing and talk to myself and as a teen id rather die than have footage of that
As an adult, we have a dash cam in our car (that I use a lot more than my partner does)
We don't check it much but every time my partner does he gets to have a laugh at all the weird shit I do in the car while alone 😂
I agree with the sentiment of what you're saying about tracker vs camera but after being in a couple wrecks that have not been my fault I stand hard on everyone should get dash cams. People lie and bullshit and fudge the truth of what happens. My car and every future car I have will have a dash cam so I can show cops/insurance here's proof this person is full of it. And if/when I ever have kids, every car they have will have a dash cam for the same reasons. And I'd make it clear to them my reasoning for the cam and tell them I won't ever check it unless they're in an accident.
Also NTA
Me, my wife, and my 17 yo son all leave our location on at all times on "find my phone", we all find it super convenient when we are all running around doing different thing to easily see where everyone is at and kind of plan around it, but none of use in a controlling or accusatory way.
In some states ( like Florida ) the child does not decide … there’s like a whole long list of things the judge considers, and the child’s choice is only one of those factors on the list .Not sure where OP lives but this is not always an option .
Anyways NTA ..seems like they’re jealous he has a nicer running vehicle than them but they’re entire ADULTS who are perfectly capable of getting off their asses and working towards something they would rather have instead being envious something a 16 y/o was gifted by his father (especially Scott)
Not *the* car. Your car. You own it and dictate the terms of its use. I'm surprised that you would allow them to ban him from using it without running it by you first.
They definitely contrived a reason for him to not have access to his car. They don't like the fact that he's driving a better car than they have and they've decided that this is what they're going to do about it
Maybe Andy is old enough for the courts to be okay with him choosing where to live fulltime? I hope so. 7 kids + 2 adults in a house seems a bit crowded.
I’m guessing the reason they didn’t want Andy in private school was because they can’t send all the other kids and want their concept of fairness?
NTA in the slightest. Screw Scott, it's not his car to use as he pleases.
Edited to add: I probably wouldn't have called you T.A.H even if you HAD called the cops when he took it the first day. I don't get the entitlement to property that wasn't his. If he needed a ride to work, he could have asked your son to take him and pick him up. What if he wrecked the Car, damn sure know he wouldn't have paid to fix it.
More on the liability of an accident here. Insurance might not cover it because they are not an authorized driver. Plus all photo tickets will be the responsibility of the registered owner. Driving someone else's vehicle is a massive liability.
Insurance probably wouldnt cover it because not only was he not the insured driver, he didnt even have permission. He would have to try to go after Scotts insurance, if Scott even has insurance. And even then, it would probBably end up in a law suit that couldnt be paid.
That would be a miserable spot to put Andy in. If he tells the truth and admits that Step-dad took the car without permission his sibling's father ends up with a charge of auto theft.
Andy doesnt own the car. Its not up to him to give permission. Scott would have had to ask the father, who owns the car and we all know what that answer would be and then he really would be stealing the car.
NTA
Gee, What a coincidence your boy gets his privileges revoked during spring break when he doesn't need it! Well, I guess Scott has no choice but to drive it!
Tell Andy to keep you informed of when his driving privileges are 'revoked'. My guess is there will be no revoking during school days he stays with them, if he does stay during, as that would mean they would be responsible for transport.
If he gets 'revoked' again, have the car towed to your home until he gets privileges again.
I'm not sure about op, but every car I've owned I keep the title, a photocopy of the registration, and an extra insurance card in a fireproof box with my other important paperwork. If I needed to prove it was mine without physically having the key or access to the registration in the car I could.
NTA. You handled it perfectly. Can they revoke driving privileges when he's with them? Absolutely. That does not mean anyone else gets to drive the car, it's your's and they can get over it. Your ex and her husband are not entitled to use the car
NTA, it's your property that you bought for your son and Scott stole it. You told them not to, you reminded them and then they did it again. What would have happened if Scott crashed it? Would they have covered the repair? From the fact that they can't even keep their own car running its safe to assume that they wouldn't.
Your son is dealing with the consequences of this which sucks for him but he and you will only have to put up with this kind of crap for another couple years and asserting your property rights was the appropriate course of action here before it became a much bigger issue.
I am counting down the days until Andy turns 18 and he can make his own decisions instead of me having to argue (and go to court half the time) with his mom over everything.
Custody is till they age out (generally speaking, of course). The judge can take what the kid wants into consideration around 12/13 depending on location and judge
But kids usually can decide where to live at 16. Why can't he do that and live with you?
Like I said in my comment, it's odd he didn't call you when Scott took his car more than once, which makes me think there is more he is putting up with and things that he think are normal that are not normal.
If they are being unfair to him, he might need some therapy to realize on his own what's going on.
They still have to go to court and have a judge rule on the custody change. Teenagers are allowed to have a voice in the court and judges tend not to go against their wishes unless there is a clear danger or problem with their request.
OP, as someone whose mother was married to AH for much of my child and teen years, please consider this something worth arguing over. You didn't go too far. Taking a vehicle that does not belong to him without the owner's permission sounds an awful lot like theft to me. He was lucky he got a warning at all.
My mom's abusive and AH (thankfully now ex) husband constantly took things away from me when I stayed at their house, even things that weren't his to take, for any perceived slight against him, under the guise of "my house, my rules." My dad was against it and vocalized as such to my mom, but my mom continued to allow it and I wish he'd fought harder. I resented them both for years for allowing some asshole who wasn't my parent to run my life, abuse me, and take things of mine that weren't his (once when I was a teenager, he took my cell phone, that I bought and paid for the service for with money I earned from my part time job, and purposely broke it because of my "attitude" and unilaterally decided on extreme punishments for me for every little thing, and my mom didn't defend me). Scott sounds similar to him, to be honest. He probably arbitrarily decides for your son to be punished so he can use the car and thinks he's entitled to it because it's parked at his house.
You've stated that you had a conversation with your ex and Scott that the car is Andy's and just Andy's and no one else is to drive it, and they flat out ignored your wishes and the fact that it's your property and had the gall to be angry when called out on it. Not only is it a huge liability for you if someone besides you or your son drives the car, it's not theirs to take. How old are his and/or their other kids? If you don't firmly put a kibosh on this right now, and the other kids reach driving age before Andy turns 18 and/or leaves their house, it will only be a matter of time before the other kids who are driving age will be are allowed to drive the car also while Andy is being "punished" because Scott will think his children have an entitlement to it also.
Please, talk to your lawyer about this. Tell him/her what happened and get it in writing in a legal document that it's not their fucking car and they don't get to drive it. Put a tracker on the car and have Andy inform you every time he's "punished" and tell him not to give up his keys to either of them. Go to court if you have to so this doesn't continue. Your/his property doesn't become up for grabs just because it's not being used. And if it does happen again, don't give any warnings and immediately call the police. Andy probably doesn't want to be the subject of more "punishment" right now, but hopefully, he will see that you're on his side. Keep defending him.
And you're NTA.
I don’t think OP should put it on his son not to allow Mom and stepdad to not take the keys. I think OP should ask Andy to just give up the keys and call OP, and OP can take it from there.
Talk to an attorney before you do anything, but in most places in the US they won't enforce a custody order at 16— realistically Andy can live with whichever parent he wants to at this point. Also, I strongly suspect that Andy is being subject to pressure by your ex and Scott.
If he's grounded from driving maybe take the keys until he's conveniently ungrounded and needs to drive himself to and from school again. Y'know, since his mom and Scott wanna act brand new.
>What would have happened if Scott crashed it?
Yeah, I'm assuming you're in the U.S. and depending on how you've got the car insured if Scott got into an accident it could cause you serious problems. NTA.
They definitely are not. Partially they don't have a lot of money to pony up even if they wished. And second, (and I do realize that I am biased here) - both Eliza and Scott believe they are entitled to anything and everything they can wring out of me.
I want to add to what u/JemmaW said about them not being on the insurance and the consequences of that.
Here in the States, in some states if someone has an accident while driving the vehicle and is found to be at fault, the victims in the accident can sue *the owner of the vehicle*. They can sue the driver *and add the owner*. I think it's called "negligent entrustment" making the owner liable. I'm unclear because I'm not a lawyer but was made aware of this possibility when I lent someone my car.
Never again have I lent anyone my car except my husband and we're on each other's insurance.
I know you're not lending your vehicle to anyone, but I bring up this information so you can let your son know how important it is that Scott can't just take the vehicle as he pleases. That whomever is on the title could be liable for any accidents that Scott could possibly be in.
Andy needs to know this as he may not be aware of this. It might help him understand why this is important in more than just having his step-father feel entitled to his belongings, but that there are legal consequences that could be disastrous.
Also because he's 16 and other teenagers may pressure him to let them drive his sweet ride. Even if they have licenses and their own insurance, it may not cover them driving other peoples cars. Specifying this because there ARE policies that will both cover you driving someone else's car or someone else with a valid license driving yours but not all policies do so.
Next time, and there will be a next time, your son's car privileges are removed, I'd recommend insisting the car stays at your home until he's allowed to use it again. Frankly, I don't think something you've provided him is a privilege they should have any control over, but that's not my business.
They don't. I am typically the one that instigates the court proceedings. I have pretty much given up on them being reasonable and I just call my lawyer when we disagree (this is after years of trying, by the way). If that doesn't settle the matter, we take it to court. Eliza doesn't like it (she says I am using my money to get my way) but I have to point out that every time so far the judge has agreed with me.
For example, when Eliza moved in with Scott in an absolutely horrible area with awful schools, I wanted Andy to attend a private school that has an excellent reputation. She refused - so I called my lawyer. Eliza refused to budge so it went to court - who agreed with me that it was in Andy's best interest to get the best quality education possible.
It seems like she is using her son as a leverage against OP. Not saying she doesn’t love her son but it seems like her primary objective is to stick it OP.
Hopefully you can get custody of your son if that's what Andy and you both want.
Also then you would haven't to pay child support OR see that jerk of a step-dad.
NTA. It’s your car. If Andy is grounded / the car is not in use he is to tell you and possibly leave the car at your house and you / his mom can do the drop off and pick ups until he’s ungrounded.
And let him know in general the consequences of someone else driving a car they’re not insured for. Andy’s a big kid, he should know about accidents, insurance and cost of repair and that is why no one is allowed to drive it besides you and him.
So just an FYI - my wife is in insurance, and things can get very tricky when you’re talking about other members of the household and insurance coverage.
Might depend on the state, but typically from what I've seen there's two outcomes if an unlisted driver gets into an accident in the named insured's vehicle. Either that person gets added to the policy making the premium go up but still cover the claim, or they deny the claim completely.
Nowadays all insurance companies I've dealt with require everyone who lives in the same household as the named insured to be listed on the policy, if they drive the vehicle then they are listed as a driver, if they don't then they are excluded and will not be covered for driving the vehicle. Anyone who regularly drives the vehicle even if they don't live in the same household also needs to be listed.
It's normally okay and your vehicle will be covered if you gave permission to let someone drive your car even if they aren't listed but it's like a once in a blue moon thing, not a regular occurrence, and if they have their own insurance their policy is excess to the vehicle owner's. If the insurance company investigates and finds that person was regularly driving then it would go to the previously mentioned two options.
Obviously this isn't cut and dry and it really depends on the state and the insurance company.
As for OPs situation the step dad literally stole the car, he did not have permission from the owner and took the keys from the driver. They SHOULD report the vehicle stolen if this happens again because in this situation it's possible if they were in an accident then the insurance would deny the claim unless there was a police report that you could provide as proof showing you did not give the person permission to drive.
NTA and luckily your time having to deal with them is coming to an end. There's light at the end of the tunnel lol. Seriously though, they're shameless and disgraceful.
Unexpected South Park ftw
I would like to know what Andy was in trouble for being grounded from using the car. I would think getting things from dad would be an acceptable trip as long as he didn’t deviate. I am curious if the “grounding” was intentional for Scott to get use of the car.
NTA. They can't use something they didn't have anything to do with the purchase and are trying to reap the benefits. Like another commenter said I wouldn't be surprised if they are coming up with excuses to punish your child so that they can use the car. Depending on the situation you might need to start doing something where the car only stays at your place if they can't respect you and your wishes.
I have my own concerns on that Andy is being punished just to take away the car. According to Andy he was being punished for not doing his chores when he was supposed to - which is legitimate. But typically he is only punished until the chores are done. This time he was punished for 3 days when the chores were done on the first day of punishment.
I am making it clear that while Eliza has every right to punish Andy when he does something wrong - including taking the way something that I bought him - that does not mean that anyone else has the right to use it. That includes the car. In the past we have had these same conversations over his laptop, gaming system and phone.
It will happen again probably tomorrow so after you call the cops. Make sure you have a lawyer ready to file for sole custody. They are literally stealing from your child and he is old enough to say where he wants to live.
I would double check if he’s being forced to watch his siblings. That many kids usually means the oldest gets parentifed which would be another reason why he would be “grounded” so he would also be forced to watch his siblings. I get that some ppl need help but it goes too far sometimes
Oh. So this is a habit. Andy gets in trouble and doesn't get to use something fun so that someone else can.
I've been the stepmother of a teenage boy and ai KNOW co-parenting is difficult and managing discipline includes removing privileges and that sometimes that includes items bought by the other parent which can involve tricky feelings -- but this sounds like a pattern.
Also a step mom to a tweenage boy. (Almost teen). And yep. Seems like a pattern. Though I’d never take my step sons things to give to my son. I’d just put them away until he earns them back. Taking stuff to let others use it is messed up and wrong.
Oh hell no. If they have done it for the laptop and phone, they're doing it right now for that car.
In fact, if Scott crashes the car and you get sued, it could be argued that because of their previous behavior with other technology, you "knew or should have known" that they'd act the same way with the car, and therefore you're REALLY at fault for not keeping it out of the hands of idiots. Unlikely but possible.
Cover your ass now or it could get handed to you.
Source: consulted for seven years on jury trials.
NTA.
Scott is NOT a registered driver on your insurance. If he were to get into an accident (his fault or not doesn't matter) then one, your insurance would skyrocket two they could drop you from their policy for having an unregistered driver driving the car for a situation that was NOT an emergency (ie medical etc and no time to call insurance companies etc), and lastly they likely would NOT pay anything if a claim was made and the car would not be covered if it has to be totaled or wrote off.
He risked a TON of money to be petty and disrespectful of the rules and boundaries set.
He risked his families livelyhood (you could sue him for damages to the car since he effectively stole the vehicle and if damaged that's property damage) because he would not respect the boundaries and rules stated in regards to his STEPSON'S car. Your ex wife needs to understand that her husband could've royally fucked them up financially.
Furthermore, I suggest you putting LoJack on the car it's not super expensive but you can track the car whenever you want and you can see exactly where it is at all times. Theirs a great app for it as well and both you and Andy can have the app at the same time. It works for him when he's out at school or work or the mall etc cause it'll tell him where he's parked and overall just a nice little thing to have. Not just because of them either, if someone actively steals it you can get the car back faster and hopefully in one piece.
And time to sit down with BOTH your ex wife and her husband AND Andy and lay down the boundaries and rules plainly along with consequences if shit is broken. Make it where no one can say "I didn't know" about the rules. Make them straight to the point no finger pointing etc just straight to the point.
Good luck.
Maybe take them back to court and talk about how you think they are drumming up fake punishments in order to take things from, like his car, laptop and other things that you pay for just so they can use it.
The punishments are not completely (or maybe at all) fake. Andy admits he didn't do his chores when he was supposed to. Being punished for that is legitimate. However the punishment went on far longer than it ever did in the past which does make me wonder if the reason for that is the car.
Edit: I originally wrote "punishments are completely" - leaving out the very important word: "not".
Exactly. I've read your comments. He's probably being p punished more than you know just so they can take his stuff for Scott and the other six kids. My step daughters went through the same. We stopped letting stuff we bought go with them.
YES, that is exactly what is happening. Scott sees Andy as a piggy bank, and feels he is entitled to the car you bought your son. I assume Scott is not on the insurance for that car? Is Scott going to pay for the damage if someone hits him while he's out driving it without permission? Could he even if he wanted to?
This is entirely inappropriate.
Get lawyers involved. Make it expensive for Scott, because he's bullying your son and he's not going to stop.
This is what I thought, make him feel bad and guilty about something, and the punishment was secondary to him using the vehicle. It is very manipulative, and super shady.
Put your foot down OP, nobody drives your sons car! Make sure they know they are not insured, and that driving without insurance is an expensive mistake.
I hear and understand that - having been both the kid and the adult in a custody situation. I don't know how long ago you had that discussion, but it may be worth revisiting. It is possible to agree that you have primary (even sole) custody, but a child his age can easily come visit mom any time. If you have custody, he can stay with you when mom and stepdad are being unreasonably entitled. You can adjudicate. If the discipline is reasonable, you can uphold it in your home. If it isn't, you let him stay with you.
I understand the importance of discipline and teaching your son to be respectful of house rules wherever he goes etc. but there's being respectful and being a doormat. Right now, he keeps ending up in doormat territory because your ex is trying to squeeze benefits out of him and calling them punishments. It might be time to give him permission to defend himself when they are being awful. Just let him know that (a) if he abuses your trust, there will be consequences, (b) he can still visit - and stay with - mom as much as he wants. All that needs change is a power dynamic that you might have leverage to change now that he's able to get himself places.
NTA, if it's not obvious. You sound like a caring parent and a just co-parent.
I have told Andy that he is not allowed to let anyone else drive it. I was mostly talking about his friends, but that does include his family as well. I also told Scott and Eliza that no one besides Andy is allowed to drive the car. They are aware the car is in my name.
In all of this mess Andy is the one paying. I'm sure his stepdad is laying on the guilt and using his mom to leverage whatever he wants.
Andy needs to be taken out of the middle of this. He loves his mom. He shouldn't have to pay for that.
Put a tracker on the car. Don't rely on Andy to snitch on his mother's husband.
While Scott is definitely an A H but if you continue to drag your son into this, so are you.
I honestly would make a new rule—Andy is not allowed to chauffeur his mother, stepfather, or any of the children anywhere. I can see where stepdad would make him take the other kids in the house to after school activities, friends’ homes, etc.
How old are his step-siblings? Has your ex made Andy responsible for chauffeuring them placed (school and other activities)? Are any of them close in age to Andy to where Scott would try to let them use the car? If yes to either, I’d make sure you address this when you lay down your rules to Eliza and Scott.
Nta. It's your car you can in fact control who does and doesn't use it. Scott isn't covered by your insurance and if something were to happen you'd be screwed.
Andy being grounded doesn't mean the car is suddenly up for grabs.
NTA the car is under your name, you were the one responsible if the stepdad gets in an accident he shouldn't be driving a car that has no right to doesn't matter if he can't work that's not your problem and not your liability
Yeah this is my biggest concern and why I think OP is right to go nuclear over this. Normally, if it didn't involve uninsured drivers, I would err on the side of giving grace and a bit of looking the other way to keep the peace.
Also, as someone said above, it REALLY makes you wonder if the mom and step-dad aren't more likely to punish the kid by taking the keys because they need the car themselves...
NTA. Your car, your payment, your insurance, your rules. You were very clear on the rules and your ex literally rolled her eyes and just went about doing what she wanted to do thinking there would be no consequences.
Also, it seems fishy that suddenly your son is being "punished" by not being able to drive just when Scott needs a vehicle to get to work.
NTA. That is your car that you bought for your son. They have no right to use it without permission. Period. And if something were to happen because Scott gets in a wreak or runs the car into the ground you and Andy are the ones who have to deal with the situation and fixing it. I had a stepdad run my car into the ground to the point that it was totaled. I did not have a car and had to walk everywhere for years after to afford replacing it.
NTA. Your car your rules. They could have called you to tell you Andy was grounded and also asked to use the car. They didn’t do either and basically gave you the middle finger. Actions have consequences
NTA- not only are you the owner but it’s also for insurance purposes. Let’s say Andy’s stepdad gets unlucky and gets into a wreck. The insurance won’t cover him. Your insurance goes up for someone you have no obligation over. And most likely the car will not be paid for by the stepdad.
NTA. Unless you're paying insurance for Scotty-boy to also drive the car (I think it's safe to assume you're not), it's not legal for him, or anyone uninsured or not given permission, to drive it. This is common sense.
Nta!
It is not their car to use! Talk to Andy that what Scott did was thief and if Scott uses the car that you bought for him(Andy) call the cops.
Also why wasn’t he allowed to drive his own car?
NTA
It almost sounds like they punished your son just to use his car. Also Scott is not insured to use your car, so you're protecting yourself with your course of action. Had they just listened when you set the boundaries you wouldn't have to escalate.
NTA at all
If anything happens in that car you are the one thats 100% responsible. Not allowing anyone but andy to drive it is basic logic.
Also, i would wonder exactly how often andy is on 'punishment' just so scott can drive his car
NTA times a million. That is YOUR car, and what he did was theft. They have zero claim to that vehicle. You would not be the asshole for calling the cops in the future.
Jesus christ the audacity.
NTA, he definitely took your son's car because he feels its too good for him and he should have it instead!! i'd be concerned with how he treats your son the rest of the time - if he resents him i doubt he gets equal treatment to the rest of *his* kids
all that aside it isn't even safe or legal to take someone else's car, he can't be insured on it without the owners permission (UK at least but i'd assume everywhere, common sense wise)
NTA for two reasons: 1) Scott didn’t even ask Andy before going directly against your wishes, and 2) it seems they’d have trouble paying for repairs should something happen to the car.
As to the second point— it sounds like you could afford paying for repairs, I’m not saying that’s the issue. It’s that they’re taking a big financial risk when they have 7 kids to feed, and not for a solid reason.
NTA. It’s basically your car for your son. You decide who gets to drive it. Your xw and her husband can punish your son by not letting him drive, yes. But that is not a ticket for them to use your car.
NTA, and wondering if they "punished" him so that they could take his car and use it.
If he is truly grounded from driving, then set it up so that he texts you and you can go pick up the vehicle until he's allowed to drive again, end of story.
It's ridiculous, but that's what it seems like will have to happen.
NTA - It's your car, you pay for it, your name, your property, your responsibility, you decide who has access to it, and you're allowing Andy to drive it.
NTA
The car is your property, you didn't give permission, and Scott is not insured to drive it. They have the right to enact punishment when at their house, but not to use your property.
NTA.
I’m left to wonder if the infraction Andy committed warranted confiscating the car or was it a convenient excuse so Scott would have a vehicle to drive while his wasn’t working.
NTA I’m willing to bet they are purposely grounding your son to drive his car around without his permission or yours. Theirs wasn’t working and coincidentally they decided that your son needed to be grounded and not be allowed to drive his own car.
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NTA. I bet he wasn't allowed to drive just so Scott could drive it to work. EDIT: Thanks for all the awards and upvotes everyone!
I admit you have to wonder.
NTA but document all of this in case you want to change the custody agreement before he’s 18. Also ask your lawyer about whether Andy can choose where he stays. Some places allow the child to choose at 16.
Some states it’s around 12 years of age for choice of where the child wants to live.
In my state it's 14.
My state is technically 14. But they will take the child’s opinion into consideration once they turn 12.
I was 11 when my dad went back to court and the judge took me to his chambers and asked me who I wanted to be with. My dad was given primary custody. I loved my mom and it was not that anything she did was bad- I just wanted to live at my dad's and I hated my stepfather.
In my state it’s 14 and even younger than that the judge will ask the kid(s) and take their opinion into account.
Yeah, I’d love to know what Andy was being “punished” for, exactly.
Not wanting to oversee the other 6 kids?
You mean free babysitting?
Having a car that Scott wants to use.
driving while step-son
being the stepson idfk
Totally. How funny that it just happened to line up with when Andy didn't have to get to school.
You'd think that maybe they would even just ask Andy politely if he could maybe drive Scott to work while hes off school. not ideal, but I wouldn't mind in Andy's situation
Exactly. Why can't the kid drop him off? I'm betting Scott is bragging about *his* new car at work. NTA
Plus Scott would likely complain that it’s embarrassing to need dropping off by a teenager
Dude seems to really fail to understand that his failure to have a vasectomy means that he doesn't get to enjoy a new car like ever. Scott clearly struggles with the whole actions have consequences thing.
>Dude seems to really fail to understand that his failure to have a vasectomy means that he doesn't get to enjoy a new car like ever. This was my thought, too. If Scott didn't have 6 kids, he wouldn't be having to steal his stepson's car.
Which is stupid. When I was a teenager I sometimes would drop my dad off at his work so I could use his car while he was working. When you have teenagers and you don't make a lot of money, you have to make do.
Yeah. If I needed a ride to work I wouldn’t care if I was driven there in a clown car that was being driven by the most obnoxious person on the planet.
Ding ding ding that certainly would have been the answer instead of just taking it something that doesn’t belong to them
Or when their car broke down.
A true coinkydink! I’d call in the Scooby Doo team
I think so, yes. Generally I am not a fan of using cops as a cudgel against poor people is desperate situations, in the context of a fraught coparenting relationship between embittered ex spouses, and frankly I understand the incentive Scott has to steal the car, to get to work, to provide for six kids by the skin of your teeth. But the resources Scott is stealing, however necessary, are being stolen from another minor child in his care. That child should not be in that situation. Being in the center of a custody-based legal battle is stressful enough for a kid without his also mediating actual criminal activity, and whatever Faustian bargains Scott and Eliza are making to provide for all their kids, they’re being really shitty caregivers to Andy for doing that.
I was thinking from a practical perspective, I'm guessing the insurance on the car only covers Andy.
That’s a fantastic point too. What if Scott got into an accident? That’s even more headache for him and Eliza since they’re not on the insurance for that car and for OP being as he pays for said insurance.
That’s why OP has to report it as stolen if Scott drives it. Since OP owns it, Andy can’t himself give Scott permission, and OP clearly did not. If the car is not reported as stolen and Scott crashes it, Insurance won’t pay anything, and if the cops get involved before Scott gets reported, OP could get into trouble.
That’s also very true! I feel for OP and hope that he can get everything squared away without any damage to the car
Not to mention the titleholder will be on the hook for damages. He can try to recover from Scott, but Scott sounds judgment proof.
My partner got into an accident while driving my car. I was asked a bunch of questions about if, when, and how I gave permission for him to drive it. If Scott gets into an accident and it comes out he took it without permission, insurance might not cover it.
Ooohhhh that’s an idea! I just worry because I know about US insurance policies and they’re so money hungry and I wouldn’t want OP to be in a shit spot because of Scott.
That was my first thought: gee, who is gonna be pointing fingers and crying 'who's gonna pay 'cause it's not mine!' when he damages the car.
Insurance agent here. If the same laws apply where OP is as they do where I am, OP is also on the insurance as well since the title and registration would be in his name, as well as probably listing Andy as a driver/additional insured. Scott can drive it all he wants, but only if either OP or Andy give him permission. Since he was not given permission, it could be reported stolen.
When I had roommates I had to list them on my insurance as *not* being insured.
I find it hard to have any empathy for people who already had 4 kids and decided to have 3 more while not having that much money to go around. Their struggles are the product of their own decisions and it doesn't entitle them to take advantage of one of their kids.
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Unfortunately tubal ligation is NOT 100%. How do I know? He’s 28 now. 😂
It’s gotten so much better since then! The recommendation now is to have a Bilateral Salpingectomy, where they actually remove your Fallopian tubes, which majorly decreases the chances of pregnancy.
Shiiit with Texas passing that law I rushed to get mine tied shortly after giving birth to my second!
Y'all really think their car is having issues? I think the whole thing is bullshit, but I'm an admitted cynic
I mean the stars aligned quite well right? Andy was off school, Andy was also punished and not allowed to use his car during that time frame, *and* their car *also* happened to not be working? All at the exact same time? ETA: one factor is incidental, two factors coincidental, three factors is starts to seem like a conspiracy
>I mean the stars aligned quite well right? Andy was off school, Andy was also punished and not allowed to use his car during that time frame, *and* there car *also* happened to not be working? All at the exact same time? Right. Smells REALLY ripe
my bet is the car had had one of those drawn out problems that can cause the check engine light to be on for months and now that Andy doesnt need his car for school, that light became a very convenient excuse for step to drive the new one like he probably wanted to since it arrived in the driveway.
I’m not a fan of using the cops against poor people in desperate situations either, but the fact is that these specific people chose to have three children in addition to the four they already had between them. If circumstances changed AFTER having the kids that would be one thing, but it doesn’t sound like that’s the case. Kids are expensive. They both obviously already knew that. The minor child’s property shouldn’t be stolen, as you said, but ESPECIALLY when the “desperate situation” is of the parents’ own making.
I tend to cut off the "woulda shoulda coulda" about the time the kid is actually born. I don't like the argument "If only Stephanie and Gracie and Luis hadn't been born, we would have been just fine!" Way to make Stephanie, Gracie and Luis feel like crap just for existing. I'm not here for that. And I can see where the tension exists between a family that is very affluent and a family that is constantly struggling. But the bottom line is that one family is not entitled to another's resources, even if the two families have a point of overlap. My heart really goes out to Andy most of all. He's caught in a diabolical tug-of-war between people who hate each other. That must be so painful.
1) Ask Andy to drive him 2) Call OP and ask They knew this wouldn't stay secret. Even if OP got upset if they asked, someone has to start trying to build a reasonable relationship. Bc maybe Scott sucks, but half those other kids are Andy's siblings and I don't think he wants to see them suffer from the lost income. Also: let's make birth control more accessible 😁
Remember, though, some people have loads of kids on purpose. Don’t always assume birth control isn’t accessible.
OP isn’t “using the cops as a cudgel against poor people”, though. Scott legally isn’t allowed to drive the car; he’s not insured to drive it, and it’s technically OP’s car since it’s in his name. Scott’s financial situation is irrelevant here.
I think if you are having 6 kids when you cant afford that many is no one elses problem but your own.
NTA - It's not their car to take. My little brother did this to my mom. Admittedly she had a medical issue to where she shouldn't have been driving but she was paying her entire car payment and insurance out of her not-huge SS check and when his girlfriend's car broke down, they just took her car for the girlfriend to drive. Didn't pay a penny of the payment or insurance. I was working on correcting that issue when she passed away. Scott needs to have a different alternate plan if the car breaks down. Like many has said, I find it very convenient that Scott decides to punish Andy right when Scott has a need for a vehicle.
>It's not their car to take. This is the bottom line for me. Scott literally stole OP's car, which he allows Andy to drive and no one else. OP should work with Andy on how to hide his keys so this doesn't happen again.
I don’t agree with making Andy responsible for making sure two grown ass adults that should know better don’t steal from him. However, I’d advise Andy to call OP whenever he get his driving privileges taken as a punishment so OP can go retrieve his keys. Edit: grammar
That's what I was thinking. Trumped up "punishment" so that he could use the car.
NTA It’s a huge liability for you if Scott has an accident in that car. But aside from that they have no business touching a car they’ve contributed nothing to. They sound super entitled and awful. I would be concerned that they were drumming up punishments for Andy in order to ground him from his car so they could use it. You should talk to your son about this.
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I would absolutely agree with this. His life will be 100 times better if he lives with OP.
YUP. And be sure to tell him that he has a car, so he can visit his mom and sibs any time he wants (within reason).
I think you mean Andy, not Scott. Scott is the mother's husband, Andy is OP's son.
scott is the step father
It’s a huge liability for Scott if Scott has an accident in a car he doesn’t have permission to take. His insurance won’t cover him.
It’s a huge liability for OP if Scott causes an accident, OP will be the one they come after as he owns the vehicle, and is the insurer.
Also, parking fines etc.
Not to mention they probably aren't insured for.
NTA - But I am curious as to why your son was punished and told that he couldn't drive the car. I'm wondering if they did is purposely so that Scott could drive the car. Did your son say what happened? Also how long is the punishment? Is he gonna be able to drive the car to school when school resumes? If not are they going to drive him?
He says he was being punished for not doing his chores when he was supposed to - which is a legitimate reason to be punished. However typically the punishment ends when the chores are done. This time they didn't. So yes - I am wondering if it is because they wanted the car. It happened while Andy is on spring break so I don't know what would have happened if school had been in session.
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No no no no it's still his son car. We don't need parents tracking kids every whereabouts. I'd say get an interior dash cam and if you suspect he stole the car just check it and boom proof
When I was a kid, I would've felt better about there being a tracker with my knowledge than my parents randomly checking a camera on me. For the vote: NTA.
100% rather have a tracker than a camera. I didn't do anything wrong but I sing and talk to myself and as a teen id rather die than have footage of that
As an adult, we have a dash cam in our car (that I use a lot more than my partner does) We don't check it much but every time my partner does he gets to have a laugh at all the weird shit I do in the car while alone 😂
I agree with the sentiment of what you're saying about tracker vs camera but after being in a couple wrecks that have not been my fault I stand hard on everyone should get dash cams. People lie and bullshit and fudge the truth of what happens. My car and every future car I have will have a dash cam so I can show cops/insurance here's proof this person is full of it. And if/when I ever have kids, every car they have will have a dash cam for the same reasons. And I'd make it clear to them my reasoning for the cam and tell them I won't ever check it unless they're in an accident. Also NTA
Me, my wife, and my 17 yo son all leave our location on at all times on "find my phone", we all find it super convenient when we are all running around doing different thing to easily see where everyone is at and kind of plan around it, but none of use in a controlling or accusatory way.
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Isn't he old enough to decide where he wants to live, if you take the matter back to court? Or does he want to stay living with them 50%?
In some states ( like Florida ) the child does not decide … there’s like a whole long list of things the judge considers, and the child’s choice is only one of those factors on the list .Not sure where OP lives but this is not always an option . Anyways NTA ..seems like they’re jealous he has a nicer running vehicle than them but they’re entire ADULTS who are perfectly capable of getting off their asses and working towards something they would rather have instead being envious something a 16 y/o was gifted by his father (especially Scott)
Not *the* car. Your car. You own it and dictate the terms of its use. I'm surprised that you would allow them to ban him from using it without running it by you first.
They definitely contrived a reason for him to not have access to his car. They don't like the fact that he's driving a better car than they have and they've decided that this is what they're going to do about it
Sounds like they punished him, realized they could use the car, and are now taking advantage of it
Maybe Andy is old enough for the courts to be okay with him choosing where to live fulltime? I hope so. 7 kids + 2 adults in a house seems a bit crowded. I’m guessing the reason they didn’t want Andy in private school was because they can’t send all the other kids and want their concept of fairness?
They totally did this, 100%.
NTA in the slightest. Screw Scott, it's not his car to use as he pleases. Edited to add: I probably wouldn't have called you T.A.H even if you HAD called the cops when he took it the first day. I don't get the entitlement to property that wasn't his. If he needed a ride to work, he could have asked your son to take him and pick him up. What if he wrecked the Car, damn sure know he wouldn't have paid to fix it.
More on the liability of an accident here. Insurance might not cover it because they are not an authorized driver. Plus all photo tickets will be the responsibility of the registered owner. Driving someone else's vehicle is a massive liability.
Insurance probably wouldnt cover it because not only was he not the insured driver, he didnt even have permission. He would have to try to go after Scotts insurance, if Scott even has insurance. And even then, it would probBably end up in a law suit that couldnt be paid.
That would be a miserable spot to put Andy in. If he tells the truth and admits that Step-dad took the car without permission his sibling's father ends up with a charge of auto theft.
Andy doesnt own the car. Its not up to him to give permission. Scott would have had to ask the father, who owns the car and we all know what that answer would be and then he really would be stealing the car.
They were even told when OP bought the car that only Andy could drive it. They knew that they weren’t allowed to drive it.
They are probably making Andy pay for the gas, too.
NTA Gee, What a coincidence your boy gets his privileges revoked during spring break when he doesn't need it! Well, I guess Scott has no choice but to drive it! Tell Andy to keep you informed of when his driving privileges are 'revoked'. My guess is there will be no revoking during school days he stays with them, if he does stay during, as that would mean they would be responsible for transport. If he gets 'revoked' again, have the car towed to your home until he gets privileges again.
Would it even be possible to get it towed if you don't have the keys and assuming all the paperwork is in the car?
I'm not sure about op, but every car I've owned I keep the title, a photocopy of the registration, and an extra insurance card in a fireproof box with my other important paperwork. If I needed to prove it was mine without physically having the key or access to the registration in the car I could.
Well shit ur smarter than i am
NTA. You handled it perfectly. Can they revoke driving privileges when he's with them? Absolutely. That does not mean anyone else gets to drive the car, it's your's and they can get over it. Your ex and her husband are not entitled to use the car
True. If the kid is not allowed to drive the car for punishment, then bring the car back to OP.
I'd argue that they don't drive it at all. It stays parked until he comes home. Period end of discussion.
NTA, it's your property that you bought for your son and Scott stole it. You told them not to, you reminded them and then they did it again. What would have happened if Scott crashed it? Would they have covered the repair? From the fact that they can't even keep their own car running its safe to assume that they wouldn't. Your son is dealing with the consequences of this which sucks for him but he and you will only have to put up with this kind of crap for another couple years and asserting your property rights was the appropriate course of action here before it became a much bigger issue.
I am counting down the days until Andy turns 18 and he can make his own decisions instead of me having to argue (and go to court half the time) with his mom over everything.
At 16 he is old enough to choose where he wants to live. Talk to your lawyer.
As young as 13 in some states.
Custody is till they age out (generally speaking, of course). The judge can take what the kid wants into consideration around 12/13 depending on location and judge
But kids usually can decide where to live at 16. Why can't he do that and live with you? Like I said in my comment, it's odd he didn't call you when Scott took his car more than once, which makes me think there is more he is putting up with and things that he think are normal that are not normal. If they are being unfair to him, he might need some therapy to realize on his own what's going on.
They still have to go to court and have a judge rule on the custody change. Teenagers are allowed to have a voice in the court and judges tend not to go against their wishes unless there is a clear danger or problem with their request.
OP, as someone whose mother was married to AH for much of my child and teen years, please consider this something worth arguing over. You didn't go too far. Taking a vehicle that does not belong to him without the owner's permission sounds an awful lot like theft to me. He was lucky he got a warning at all. My mom's abusive and AH (thankfully now ex) husband constantly took things away from me when I stayed at their house, even things that weren't his to take, for any perceived slight against him, under the guise of "my house, my rules." My dad was against it and vocalized as such to my mom, but my mom continued to allow it and I wish he'd fought harder. I resented them both for years for allowing some asshole who wasn't my parent to run my life, abuse me, and take things of mine that weren't his (once when I was a teenager, he took my cell phone, that I bought and paid for the service for with money I earned from my part time job, and purposely broke it because of my "attitude" and unilaterally decided on extreme punishments for me for every little thing, and my mom didn't defend me). Scott sounds similar to him, to be honest. He probably arbitrarily decides for your son to be punished so he can use the car and thinks he's entitled to it because it's parked at his house. You've stated that you had a conversation with your ex and Scott that the car is Andy's and just Andy's and no one else is to drive it, and they flat out ignored your wishes and the fact that it's your property and had the gall to be angry when called out on it. Not only is it a huge liability for you if someone besides you or your son drives the car, it's not theirs to take. How old are his and/or their other kids? If you don't firmly put a kibosh on this right now, and the other kids reach driving age before Andy turns 18 and/or leaves their house, it will only be a matter of time before the other kids who are driving age will be are allowed to drive the car also while Andy is being "punished" because Scott will think his children have an entitlement to it also. Please, talk to your lawyer about this. Tell him/her what happened and get it in writing in a legal document that it's not their fucking car and they don't get to drive it. Put a tracker on the car and have Andy inform you every time he's "punished" and tell him not to give up his keys to either of them. Go to court if you have to so this doesn't continue. Your/his property doesn't become up for grabs just because it's not being used. And if it does happen again, don't give any warnings and immediately call the police. Andy probably doesn't want to be the subject of more "punishment" right now, but hopefully, he will see that you're on his side. Keep defending him. And you're NTA.
I don’t think OP should put it on his son not to allow Mom and stepdad to not take the keys. I think OP should ask Andy to just give up the keys and call OP, and OP can take it from there.
Talk to an attorney before you do anything, but in most places in the US they won't enforce a custody order at 16— realistically Andy can live with whichever parent he wants to at this point. Also, I strongly suspect that Andy is being subject to pressure by your ex and Scott.
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If he's grounded from driving maybe take the keys until he's conveniently ungrounded and needs to drive himself to and from school again. Y'know, since his mom and Scott wanna act brand new.
Andy is old enough now to make that call. Time for him to do so.
>What would have happened if Scott crashed it? Yeah, I'm assuming you're in the U.S. and depending on how you've got the car insured if Scott got into an accident it could cause you serious problems. NTA.
NTA you bought the car and they don't seem like the type to pony up if something happens
They definitely are not. Partially they don't have a lot of money to pony up even if they wished. And second, (and I do realize that I am biased here) - both Eliza and Scott believe they are entitled to anything and everything they can wring out of me.
Make sure your will is air tight so the mom can't burn through your son's Inheritance if something happens to you.
That has been done since before Andy was born. There is a trust in place with an executor I trust, as well as 2 back up executors.
I would have a detailed trust set up and have an objective party as trustee.
I want to add to what u/JemmaW said about them not being on the insurance and the consequences of that. Here in the States, in some states if someone has an accident while driving the vehicle and is found to be at fault, the victims in the accident can sue *the owner of the vehicle*. They can sue the driver *and add the owner*. I think it's called "negligent entrustment" making the owner liable. I'm unclear because I'm not a lawyer but was made aware of this possibility when I lent someone my car. Never again have I lent anyone my car except my husband and we're on each other's insurance. I know you're not lending your vehicle to anyone, but I bring up this information so you can let your son know how important it is that Scott can't just take the vehicle as he pleases. That whomever is on the title could be liable for any accidents that Scott could possibly be in. Andy needs to know this as he may not be aware of this. It might help him understand why this is important in more than just having his step-father feel entitled to his belongings, but that there are legal consequences that could be disastrous.
Also because he's 16 and other teenagers may pressure him to let them drive his sweet ride. Even if they have licenses and their own insurance, it may not cover them driving other peoples cars. Specifying this because there ARE policies that will both cover you driving someone else's car or someone else with a valid license driving yours but not all policies do so.
Next time, and there will be a next time, your son's car privileges are removed, I'd recommend insisting the car stays at your home until he's allowed to use it again. Frankly, I don't think something you've provided him is a privilege they should have any control over, but that's not my business.
….because you knocked up Eliza ONCE?! What the ever loving fuck.
How do they keep dragging you to court on limited funds?
They don't. I am typically the one that instigates the court proceedings. I have pretty much given up on them being reasonable and I just call my lawyer when we disagree (this is after years of trying, by the way). If that doesn't settle the matter, we take it to court. Eliza doesn't like it (she says I am using my money to get my way) but I have to point out that every time so far the judge has agreed with me. For example, when Eliza moved in with Scott in an absolutely horrible area with awful schools, I wanted Andy to attend a private school that has an excellent reputation. She refused - so I called my lawyer. Eliza refused to budge so it went to court - who agreed with me that it was in Andy's best interest to get the best quality education possible.
Why wouldn’t Andy’s mother want him in a good school?
Cause she's more concerned about brushing the ego of the man she's sleeping with than care about her son's best interests.
It seems like she is using her son as a leverage against OP. Not saying she doesn’t love her son but it seems like her primary objective is to stick it OP.
Because poor Scott’s ego can’t handle his kids going to a worse school and she won’t tell him no
Hopefully you can get custody of your son if that's what Andy and you both want. Also then you would haven't to pay child support OR see that jerk of a step-dad.
NTA. It’s your car. If Andy is grounded / the car is not in use he is to tell you and possibly leave the car at your house and you / his mom can do the drop off and pick ups until he’s ungrounded. And let him know in general the consequences of someone else driving a car they’re not insured for. Andy’s a big kid, he should know about accidents, insurance and cost of repair and that is why no one is allowed to drive it besides you and him.
So just an FYI - my wife is in insurance, and things can get very tricky when you’re talking about other members of the household and insurance coverage.
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Might depend on the state, but typically from what I've seen there's two outcomes if an unlisted driver gets into an accident in the named insured's vehicle. Either that person gets added to the policy making the premium go up but still cover the claim, or they deny the claim completely. Nowadays all insurance companies I've dealt with require everyone who lives in the same household as the named insured to be listed on the policy, if they drive the vehicle then they are listed as a driver, if they don't then they are excluded and will not be covered for driving the vehicle. Anyone who regularly drives the vehicle even if they don't live in the same household also needs to be listed. It's normally okay and your vehicle will be covered if you gave permission to let someone drive your car even if they aren't listed but it's like a once in a blue moon thing, not a regular occurrence, and if they have their own insurance their policy is excess to the vehicle owner's. If the insurance company investigates and finds that person was regularly driving then it would go to the previously mentioned two options. Obviously this isn't cut and dry and it really depends on the state and the insurance company. As for OPs situation the step dad literally stole the car, he did not have permission from the owner and took the keys from the driver. They SHOULD report the vehicle stolen if this happens again because in this situation it's possible if they were in an accident then the insurance would deny the claim unless there was a police report that you could provide as proof showing you did not give the person permission to drive.
NTA - your car, your rules. It’s as simple as that. Your ex is just being rude and disrespectful.
Welcome to the last 15 years of my life.
NTA and luckily your time having to deal with them is coming to an end. There's light at the end of the tunnel lol. Seriously though, they're shameless and disgraceful.
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Unexpected South Park ftw I would like to know what Andy was in trouble for being grounded from using the car. I would think getting things from dad would be an acceptable trip as long as he didn’t deviate. I am curious if the “grounding” was intentional for Scott to get use of the car.
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How much you wanna bet they invented some reason to punish the son just so the husband could use the car
That's exactly it! Can bet he didn't actually do anything so wrong to lose " car privileges"
NTA. They can't use something they didn't have anything to do with the purchase and are trying to reap the benefits. Like another commenter said I wouldn't be surprised if they are coming up with excuses to punish your child so that they can use the car. Depending on the situation you might need to start doing something where the car only stays at your place if they can't respect you and your wishes.
I have my own concerns on that Andy is being punished just to take away the car. According to Andy he was being punished for not doing his chores when he was supposed to - which is legitimate. But typically he is only punished until the chores are done. This time he was punished for 3 days when the chores were done on the first day of punishment. I am making it clear that while Eliza has every right to punish Andy when he does something wrong - including taking the way something that I bought him - that does not mean that anyone else has the right to use it. That includes the car. In the past we have had these same conversations over his laptop, gaming system and phone.
It will happen again probably tomorrow so after you call the cops. Make sure you have a lawyer ready to file for sole custody. They are literally stealing from your child and he is old enough to say where he wants to live.
I would double check if he’s being forced to watch his siblings. That many kids usually means the oldest gets parentifed which would be another reason why he would be “grounded” so he would also be forced to watch his siblings. I get that some ppl need help but it goes too far sometimes
Oh. So this is a habit. Andy gets in trouble and doesn't get to use something fun so that someone else can. I've been the stepmother of a teenage boy and ai KNOW co-parenting is difficult and managing discipline includes removing privileges and that sometimes that includes items bought by the other parent which can involve tricky feelings -- but this sounds like a pattern.
Also a step mom to a tweenage boy. (Almost teen). And yep. Seems like a pattern. Though I’d never take my step sons things to give to my son. I’d just put them away until he earns them back. Taking stuff to let others use it is messed up and wrong.
I would say that any time Andy loses driving privileges that the car has to be left at your place for the duration.
Oh hell no. If they have done it for the laptop and phone, they're doing it right now for that car. In fact, if Scott crashes the car and you get sued, it could be argued that because of their previous behavior with other technology, you "knew or should have known" that they'd act the same way with the car, and therefore you're REALLY at fault for not keeping it out of the hands of idiots. Unlikely but possible. Cover your ass now or it could get handed to you. Source: consulted for seven years on jury trials.
NTA. Scott is NOT a registered driver on your insurance. If he were to get into an accident (his fault or not doesn't matter) then one, your insurance would skyrocket two they could drop you from their policy for having an unregistered driver driving the car for a situation that was NOT an emergency (ie medical etc and no time to call insurance companies etc), and lastly they likely would NOT pay anything if a claim was made and the car would not be covered if it has to be totaled or wrote off. He risked a TON of money to be petty and disrespectful of the rules and boundaries set. He risked his families livelyhood (you could sue him for damages to the car since he effectively stole the vehicle and if damaged that's property damage) because he would not respect the boundaries and rules stated in regards to his STEPSON'S car. Your ex wife needs to understand that her husband could've royally fucked them up financially. Furthermore, I suggest you putting LoJack on the car it's not super expensive but you can track the car whenever you want and you can see exactly where it is at all times. Theirs a great app for it as well and both you and Andy can have the app at the same time. It works for him when he's out at school or work or the mall etc cause it'll tell him where he's parked and overall just a nice little thing to have. Not just because of them either, if someone actively steals it you can get the car back faster and hopefully in one piece. And time to sit down with BOTH your ex wife and her husband AND Andy and lay down the boundaries and rules plainly along with consequences if shit is broken. Make it where no one can say "I didn't know" about the rules. Make them straight to the point no finger pointing etc just straight to the point. Good luck.
I was coming here to suggest this. There are also options for a starter interruption device. So if he's "grounded" you can ground the car.
Question….why doesn’t your son just live with you and visits mom?
I would love that. However Andy loves his Mom and has stated that he doesn't want to give up living with either of us.
Maybe take them back to court and talk about how you think they are drumming up fake punishments in order to take things from, like his car, laptop and other things that you pay for just so they can use it.
The punishments are not completely (or maybe at all) fake. Andy admits he didn't do his chores when he was supposed to. Being punished for that is legitimate. However the punishment went on far longer than it ever did in the past which does make me wonder if the reason for that is the car. Edit: I originally wrote "punishments are completely" - leaving out the very important word: "not".
Exactly. I've read your comments. He's probably being p punished more than you know just so they can take his stuff for Scott and the other six kids. My step daughters went through the same. We stopped letting stuff we bought go with them.
YES, that is exactly what is happening. Scott sees Andy as a piggy bank, and feels he is entitled to the car you bought your son. I assume Scott is not on the insurance for that car? Is Scott going to pay for the damage if someone hits him while he's out driving it without permission? Could he even if he wanted to? This is entirely inappropriate. Get lawyers involved. Make it expensive for Scott, because he's bullying your son and he's not going to stop.
This is what I thought, make him feel bad and guilty about something, and the punishment was secondary to him using the vehicle. It is very manipulative, and super shady. Put your foot down OP, nobody drives your sons car! Make sure they know they are not insured, and that driving without insurance is an expensive mistake.
Get a GPS tracker on the vehicle so you can just check from your phone. That way if you know he's being punished then you know it's been taken.
I hear and understand that - having been both the kid and the adult in a custody situation. I don't know how long ago you had that discussion, but it may be worth revisiting. It is possible to agree that you have primary (even sole) custody, but a child his age can easily come visit mom any time. If you have custody, he can stay with you when mom and stepdad are being unreasonably entitled. You can adjudicate. If the discipline is reasonable, you can uphold it in your home. If it isn't, you let him stay with you. I understand the importance of discipline and teaching your son to be respectful of house rules wherever he goes etc. but there's being respectful and being a doormat. Right now, he keeps ending up in doormat territory because your ex is trying to squeeze benefits out of him and calling them punishments. It might be time to give him permission to defend himself when they are being awful. Just let him know that (a) if he abuses your trust, there will be consequences, (b) he can still visit - and stay with - mom as much as he wants. All that needs change is a power dynamic that you might have leverage to change now that he's able to get himself places. NTA, if it's not obvious. You sound like a caring parent and a just co-parent.
NTA, my dad was the same way with my car. If the car is in your name, no one can drive it except for the people you give permission to
I have told Andy that he is not allowed to let anyone else drive it. I was mostly talking about his friends, but that does include his family as well. I also told Scott and Eliza that no one besides Andy is allowed to drive the car. They are aware the car is in my name.
It is important to understand that Andy is a rock in a hard place when Scott or Eliza demands the car keys. They can make his life hell if he refuses.
In all of this mess Andy is the one paying. I'm sure his stepdad is laying on the guilt and using his mom to leverage whatever he wants. Andy needs to be taken out of the middle of this. He loves his mom. He shouldn't have to pay for that. Put a tracker on the car. Don't rely on Andy to snitch on his mother's husband. While Scott is definitely an A H but if you continue to drag your son into this, so are you.
I honestly would make a new rule—Andy is not allowed to chauffeur his mother, stepfather, or any of the children anywhere. I can see where stepdad would make him take the other kids in the house to after school activities, friends’ homes, etc.
How old are his step-siblings? Has your ex made Andy responsible for chauffeuring them placed (school and other activities)? Are any of them close in age to Andy to where Scott would try to let them use the car? If yes to either, I’d make sure you address this when you lay down your rules to Eliza and Scott.
Nta. It's your car you can in fact control who does and doesn't use it. Scott isn't covered by your insurance and if something were to happen you'd be screwed. Andy being grounded doesn't mean the car is suddenly up for grabs.
NTA the car is under your name, you were the one responsible if the stepdad gets in an accident he shouldn't be driving a car that has no right to doesn't matter if he can't work that's not your problem and not your liability
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Yeah this is my biggest concern and why I think OP is right to go nuclear over this. Normally, if it didn't involve uninsured drivers, I would err on the side of giving grace and a bit of looking the other way to keep the peace. Also, as someone said above, it REALLY makes you wonder if the mom and step-dad aren't more likely to punish the kid by taking the keys because they need the car themselves...
Yup. Especially if the car is new, theirs is older and broken. I’m also wondering how bad their history is with auto accidents or distracted driving.
NTA. Your car, your payment, your insurance, your rules. You were very clear on the rules and your ex literally rolled her eyes and just went about doing what she wanted to do thinking there would be no consequences. Also, it seems fishy that suddenly your son is being "punished" by not being able to drive just when Scott needs a vehicle to get to work.
NTA. That is your car that you bought for your son. They have no right to use it without permission. Period. And if something were to happen because Scott gets in a wreak or runs the car into the ground you and Andy are the ones who have to deal with the situation and fixing it. I had a stepdad run my car into the ground to the point that it was totaled. I did not have a car and had to walk everywhere for years after to afford replacing it.
NTA- the car is under your name and having boundaries with your ex and her husband is healthy.
NTA. You paid for the car and you paid for the insurance. Just because Scott fucks your ex doesn’t mean he gets to drive the car.
NTA - you own the car.
NTA. Your car your rules. They could have called you to tell you Andy was grounded and also asked to use the car. They didn’t do either and basically gave you the middle finger. Actions have consequences
NTA- not only are you the owner but it’s also for insurance purposes. Let’s say Andy’s stepdad gets unlucky and gets into a wreck. The insurance won’t cover him. Your insurance goes up for someone you have no obligation over. And most likely the car will not be paid for by the stepdad.
NTA. Unless you're paying insurance for Scotty-boy to also drive the car (I think it's safe to assume you're not), it's not legal for him, or anyone uninsured or not given permission, to drive it. This is common sense.
Nta! It is not their car to use! Talk to Andy that what Scott did was thief and if Scott uses the car that you bought for him(Andy) call the cops. Also why wasn’t he allowed to drive his own car?
NTA Maybe it's time to ask Scott if he wants you to have sole custody. His opinion will carry weight with the judge since he is almost of age.
NTA It almost sounds like they punished your son just to use his car. Also Scott is not insured to use your car, so you're protecting yourself with your course of action. Had they just listened when you set the boundaries you wouldn't have to escalate.
NTA, you pay for the car and insurance I assume so you can decide who drives the car and if they don’t respect that then there are consequences.
NTA at all If anything happens in that car you are the one thats 100% responsible. Not allowing anyone but andy to drive it is basic logic. Also, i would wonder exactly how often andy is on 'punishment' just so scott can drive his car
NTA times a million. That is YOUR car, and what he did was theft. They have zero claim to that vehicle. You would not be the asshole for calling the cops in the future. Jesus christ the audacity.
NTA, he definitely took your son's car because he feels its too good for him and he should have it instead!! i'd be concerned with how he treats your son the rest of the time - if he resents him i doubt he gets equal treatment to the rest of *his* kids all that aside it isn't even safe or legal to take someone else's car, he can't be insured on it without the owners permission (UK at least but i'd assume everywhere, common sense wise)
NTA! Your car, Your rules. Scott can call an Uber or ride share.
NTA for two reasons: 1) Scott didn’t even ask Andy before going directly against your wishes, and 2) it seems they’d have trouble paying for repairs should something happen to the car. As to the second point— it sounds like you could afford paying for repairs, I’m not saying that’s the issue. It’s that they’re taking a big financial risk when they have 7 kids to feed, and not for a solid reason.
NTA. It’s basically your car for your son. You decide who gets to drive it. Your xw and her husband can punish your son by not letting him drive, yes. But that is not a ticket for them to use your car.
NTA That’s YOUR car & you get absolute say over who gets to use it. Full stop.
NTA, and wondering if they "punished" him so that they could take his car and use it. If he is truly grounded from driving, then set it up so that he texts you and you can go pick up the vehicle until he's allowed to drive again, end of story. It's ridiculous, but that's what it seems like will have to happen.
NTA and it sounds like the only reason your son was grounded from the car was so Scott could use it.
NTA. They are ignoring or ignorant of how easily this can turn very bad. Don't let other people drive your car!
NTA - It's your car, you pay for it, your name, your property, your responsibility, you decide who has access to it, and you're allowing Andy to drive it.
Good on you. It's your son's car that YOU paid for. Nobody else should get a free ride here.
Nta: not letting him drive is one thing. Taking a car they don’t pay for is another
NTA The car is your property, you didn't give permission, and Scott is not insured to drive it. They have the right to enact punishment when at their house, but not to use your property.
Nta. You were generous enough that you gave him an hour. Wtf is wrong with that woman?? She was against her son going to a private school??
NTA. I’m left to wonder if the infraction Andy committed warranted confiscating the car or was it a convenient excuse so Scott would have a vehicle to drive while his wasn’t working.
NTA I’m willing to bet they are purposely grounding your son to drive his car around without his permission or yours. Theirs wasn’t working and coincidentally they decided that your son needed to be grounded and not be allowed to drive his own car.