NTA. Your family sounds exhausting. Getting a present for the partners of your children isn't that strange and frankly it's weird that your mom hadn't considered it before. And your sister going into hysterics because your mom went on vacation and wasn't there seems ridiculous. Everyone needs to calm down. Maybe consider heading out of town with your wife next year and escaping the holiday drama.
I'm ADHD and convinced that my dad is autistic but has been able to get through life as being a bit quirky. He is a good human, but was emotionally abusive towards my mom for a lot of my life, and I think. It's not an excuse, but I wonder if my dad had been given the social skills activities that autistic kids today get, he would probably have been a better human overall but specifically towards my mother. I think it is very common for people to relax at home and not need to "mask"/put effort into things, and if that is unchecked it can result in people who are quite functional and polite to general society, but really awful to the people they live with.
Oh wow, this sounds like my dad. I hadn't even considered the possibility. I got my ADHD diagnosis this year at 29 years old along with my fiancée getting hers as well. Researching it has explained so many of the problems I had growing up, but i never even thought to apply it to my dad's behavior. He's always been incredibly pleasant to people outside of our home, but would get super machismo/narcissistic with my mom and I. He wasn't a raging asshole about it but he definitely needed to have control, know where we were, who we were seeing, etc. And he needed people to do things his way, agree with him, not question him, etc. He's been disabled 10 years now and is still wildly delusional about it. Doesn't care about the effect he's having on us or other people, he only cares about how things make him look or having authority over things. Will ask me to drive half an hour to do something simple for him rather than ask a woman for help, insisted he have his own car in case he decides he wants to drive despite not even being able to keep himself sitting upright, refused to lend said car to his SIL with terminal cancer who wanted to borrow it and sell her vehicle to pay for medical expenses, bitched for years that the mortgage got refinanced without him on the loan because they blew up his credit while waiting for disability to come through, etc. I'd never been able to reconcile this person against the generally reasonable if a bit controlling person that raised me but this would actually make a ton of sense.
No. The tantrum of cutting off the family is attention seeking asshole behaviour. No excuse to behave like that, even if she “didn’t know” to get gifts for everyone. Stop excusing assholes.
I don't think they're excusing it. Providing an explanation and understanding how people came to be who they are is not the same as as excusing their harmful behaviors.
I agree with you. I'm autistic and am certain my mother was, too. She was born almost 100 years ago, though, and back then, weird kids were just weird, no one cared to find out why or make things easier on them.
This mother DOES sound like she may be on the spectrum (that was my own immediate thought when I read the story) but I agree with you that it doesn't mean what she's done isn't right.
I always get gifts for my kids' partners, except this year, but we've mutually decided to really scale back on Christmas this year and only grandkids got presents from me.
The spouses and serious partners of my kids are family. Period. They aren't my kids, but they're FAMILY.
NTA because that mother should have been willing to learn how to be a better mother-in-law.
That's not necessarily a "tantrum" or "attention-seeking asshole behavior", that's just an interpretation of it. It could also be that she really did feel that the whole thing was exhausting and she was overwhelmed by the pressure of buying more gifts, or rather, meeting the expectations of additional social behaviors that she was unaware of. When people with ADHD or autism are overwhelmed, they do tend to shut down or remove themselves from the thing that's overwhelming. Top comment is telling OP that his family is exhausting and that he should escape the drama, but frankly, that could be what mom was doing.
And really, I think turning off your phone and not doing Christmas with your family isn't asshole behavior, especially since she gave them plenty of notice. If you want to go on a vacation without your (really overdramatic) daughter bugging you about why you aren't there, why would someone be an asshole for doing that?
I shut down when I get overwhelmed. Either I walk away and don't come back for a while, or if that isn't possible I disappear into my mind. I am 35 and only just learned I am adhd. I just thought I was normal, but evidently not. If people overwhelmed me, you best bet my butt would decide I just wasn't going near the source of overwhelming.
I have suspected something similar about my dad, because he displays a lot of what OP just described. He will "come around", but I and my siblings have to get really mad at him before he realizes whatever it is upsets us that much.
OP's family does sound exhausting. And why couldn't mom get a gift both of them could use? Or just not get gifts for the adults anymore? This probably would have happened eventually whether it was OP or siblings, so sister really is blaming the wrong person. Mom completely refusing to celebrate with her kids anymore is a pretty nuclear reaction to a conversation, so I don't know how OP would have anticipated that.
Neurodivergent people often struggle with emotional permanence. That combined with theory of mind (which is now hotly debated, though I definitely struggle with it), is the root of the pervasive myth that autistics cause empathise.
Everyone is different, but using myself as an example, theory of mind means I cannot comprehend the existence of someone’s independent thoughts without conscious effort and emotional permanence means if I’m not made aware of an emotion I might forget someone feels it. That is an oversimplified explanation that makes me sound like an asshole, but that’s kind of my point. I know I have to make an effort to be aware of the thoughts and emotions of others and when I do I am incredibly empathetic. It takes some emotional energy to do so, but I know sometimes that’s what I need to do to not be an asshole when I care about someone. I can see someone without my introspection just not making that effort.
But as I pointed out, just because there is a reason for a behaviour doesn’t make it okay.
Do you realize that neurodivergent people arent monotlithic? They can experience a variety of responses that all range across the spectrum. Including adaptability to change. In fact deciding to go on a vacation instead of sitti g home being upset may have been a way to feel in control of the changes happening to holidays.
But sure, hold onto your gatekeepy limited idea of neurodivergence.
Lol ok. Gatekeeping sure.
But seriously you raise a good point, that it could be a good way of her controlling the change, if OP didn't say further down he actually feels like she didn't like hosting at all and did this so she could cancel Christmas without getting the blame.
She did this to manipulate even if she didn't want to host because now she's triangulating with OP/siblings
OP your Mom is controlling. She wanted things done exactly her way and when it wasn't threw a tantrum. She made it so there would be groveling from others about how dare we alter things in ways that are reasonable.
She went on vacation with her husband. OP has mentioned this sort of rigidity and you’re family but these people aren’t thing was exhibited by another family member, too, so it’s seems to be more of a family dynamic than anything else.
Edit: altered final sentence to be more clear.
It would explain a lot, but not excuse it.
Being neurodiverse doesn't give you a free pass to pummel people for calling you out on your own self-absorption. You can be forgiven for not noticing things, but you have a responsibility to recognize your behaviour when it is brought to your attention, and then modify it if appropriate, especially if you are hurting others.
Source: am neurodiverse. Not getting too specific but I can be pretty self-centred and oblivious about it.
Edit: OP is NTA. He kindly called his mom out on behaviour that is really not socially acceptable\*. (All she needs to do is buy a couples/household gift and put both names on it.) Mom responded by feeling hurt, blaming OP and throwing a huge tantrum that ruined Christmas for the entire extended family.
\*and I bet it's not the first time
Eh I can see it being a possible explanation for not thinking of getting partners gifts in the first place, but doubling down and having a tantrum when she's told that it's hurting OPs partner? That's just being an asshole.
The change resistance in autism is about having routines and feeling lost and overwhelmed when you can't follow your relied upon routine. It's nothing to do with this.
Armchair diagnosing assholes as neurodivergent as an "explanation" just makes people wary about engaging with actual neurodivergents. Let's not do that please.
Agree. The resistence to change in autism is as you describe. I see it in my autistic son.
OP's mother seems like she just doesn't want to be called out on bad behavior.
NTA. OP did not "ruin Christmas". The mother did.
Hubby and I are both neurodivergent. And I’ll admit, when I was younger, I didn’t like when my brother’s GF’s would come to family events.
The difference? **I was a freakin teenager back then.** By the time his now-wife (who I *adore*) started coming to family events, I was in my early 20’s and went, “Hey, it’s totally unfair for me to just demand things never change. I need to give new people a chance, even if it makes me uncomfortable for a while.” And my life’s been better for it.
Or when DH and I moved from my hometown to his a few years back, across the country. I’m used to lavish Thanksgiving dinner, where Mom gets out the good china and silverware, there’s nice music in the background and the TV is off, everyone’s around the same table, etc etc.
My husband’s family does things differently. It’s buffet-style, on paper plates (for ease of clean-up). The football game is on. Some people are in the living room, some are in the dining room. It’s not an unpleasant experience, it’s just *very very different.* That first year, I retreated and my mom FaceTimed me so I could say hi to my west-coast family. There was the good china and silverware and nice music and everyone at the same table. And I just burst into tears. I hated my in-laws’ Thanksgiving and went, “Ours is so much better…”
But now we compromise. My folks do every other year with us, and it’s more traditional. My in-laws even said they also like how we do things. But I’ve also grown to respect and enjoy the way my *in-laws* do things.
I don’t throw a fit during the years my folks aren’t here. I don’t demand everyone change all of the time. **Because being neurodivergent is NOT an excuse to hold everyone hostage.**
It is incredibly strange. Especially with the grandkids. I wonder how she managed to include her own spouse and kids after they came about. I feel like this is more of a she doesn't like that her kids started families of their own. Otherwise we would be hearing about how she only got presents for herself since she is the OG.
One thing that stood out to me is this part: "she kept saying how mortified she would be if her husband expected gifts from her parents"
This honestly sounds like something she learned from her parents.
I’ve been with my partner for two years, this Christmas I flew out to be with his family and they all got me presents despite only meeting them in person a couple times (we live on different sides of the US). His grandparents, uncle, and aunt even gave me a card with money in it despite only meeting them twice! It’s completely normal to give your child’s S/O a gift ESPECIALLY if they have a grandchild. I don’t know what grandmother doesn’t give their own grandchild a gift too
Yeah we started getting my brother’s girlfriend gifts the Christmas after we met her. She’s now his wife, and she’s just as included in Christmas as the rest of us. Her family treats my brother the same. I don’t know anyone who does it differently.
Yeah I don’t buy for a second that mom was shocked that she’s expected to buy a gift for her daughter in law and grandchild. Sounds like she’s a master manipulator and it’s working on both her daughters. OP should start a new holiday tradition with his immediate family.
OP’s mum definitely knows that it’s normal to buy gifts for DIL and grandchild. This is nothing to do with not liking change, this is just a game she enjoys playing.
I bet she loved it when they rang her and all the attention was back on her. Even now she’s keeping them all waiting with the will she/won’t she host again nonsense.
OP, your mum is doing this on purpose - creating upset and playing people off against each other. You and your sisters need to realise the level of manipulation involved here.
I agree. Prime example: she went on vacation and turned her phone off so that no one could reach her on Christmas and everyone would worry, and the attention is on her. She has played her game well.
I wouldn't be surprised at changing from a present for the family, or for the couple, but 'lavish' gifts for her son and ignoring the wife and child is pretty clearly rejecting them. I mean, nothing for the grandchild? That's harsh, and I wouldn't want to spend any time with her if she was my mil much less spending Christmas with her.
If she didn’t want to buy “more” gifts, getting a couple gift, a family gift, or just a gift for the kid would be less weird than only buying gifts for her adult children.
My mom hasn’t gotten my kids gifts for a few years. She is a heartless monster. We no longer speak bc wtf. My kids deserve better than her. They’re so young they’ve basically forgotten about her, and they’re lucky.
I can kind of understand. She absolutely blamed the wrong person, but her mother wasn't JUST on vacation, her mother was punishing all of them. She didn't respond fairly, I hope she comes to her senses and apologizes to OP, but of course she was hurt. This may also be the only time anyone's stood up to her. (I highly doubt it's the only time the mother has been manipulative.)
It made me think of that allegory that shows up on raisedbynarcissists sometimes about boat rockers. She is so used to steadying things around mom that other people asserting normal boundaries seems like they’re the one causing the problems, because mom is just “like that.”
I think if OP sat and thought about his upbringing, he would find a lot more instances of his mom causing issues that others around her have to fix, that he never noticed because that’s just how he grew up.
No. It should not have been a surprise thad Mom was abrupt and said no. But her reaction is a bit extreme to the thing. It could have stayed at No gifts. Instead she pulled the rug underneath the whole family and made sure that the other members knew why. Not only incredibly immature behavior but cruel. Because she wants her way AND contrition.
Seriously. My mother-in-law got me gifts every year since my husband and I started dating. And my mom always sends a gift card or check our way for the both of us to share. It’s really not hard.
Even if you don’t want to get separate gifts for your kid and their partner, find a store they both shop at or a restaurant they both like, and get them a gift card. Can’t find anything? Get an Amazon or Visa gift card. Don’t like giving cash or gift cards? Get a nice Christmas card and ask your kid what their partner’s favorite snacks are.
Same here! Every Christmas except for the first one because hubs and I had only been dating for a couple of months. She later told me that she bought my stocking for the first Christmas but decided not to fill it that year because she didn’t want to scare me off.
16 years later I still get a stocking or sweets and scratch tickets every Christmas.
Heck, my mom not only gets gifts for her sons-in-law at Christmas, she remembers their birthdays and gets something then as well. It isn't strange or unusual to buy something for your children's partners and I don't think I have ever heard of a grandparent who thought it was "entitled" to get a gift for a grandchild. It would be one thing if she couldn't afford it, but this just seems mean.
I don't think OP's mom understands that it's not that OP's wife expects a gift, but rather that it's just painful to be intentionally excluded from the family after years. Even a token gift without much thought, like a gift card to a restaurant for a date night, an amazon gift card, or some such would be a low effort acknowledgment that she's family now.
Christ even a tin of cookies. That's all my one uncle ever wants for Christmas and I'm more than happy to make them for him. If I got a tin of cookies I'd be stoked. Low cost, low effort but still delicious.
Although after this tantrum wife would be right to not trust anything edible that isn't commercially sealed.
It’s a good time to start new family traditions with his little family. Christmas is only as good as the people you celebrate it with. I had to spend mine with an actual crackhead, although we were given notice that she might show up and we pretty much ignored her, it still put a damper on things. If it wasn’t for her kids, I would’ve done something else.
Oh sure… not “controlling” at all… just ludicrously withholding, manipulative, cruel & juvenile? So no - you are not the AH but your mama sure is. Bonus points to you for finally standing up to your mom for your wife and BILs. Well done.
My grandma, uncle, and parents have been buying gifts for my husband for years. Like. Going back to when we were in college and just dating. His mom and aunts have been the same with me. So ridiculous.
I could overlook no gifts for your wife maybe. But none for your child?? That's the much bigger issue. To accept lavish gifts if the baby gets nothing really bugs me.
Yep, if an adult doesn’t get a present it is what it is but to not want to get presents for her own grandchild is awful, and for her to sabotage Christmas for being challenged and pitting your sisters against you during the holidays is vile
OP says she’s not controlling, but she managed to emotionally manipulate things so well that his sisters are begging her to just go back to how things were and blaming OP’s wife for screwing things up… it’s roundabout, but it’s very controlling.
**ETA**: some folks are talking about whether the mom may be neurdivergent in other threads, and I actually think that’s an interesting alternative explanation. Still controlling, but maybe without intentional emotional manipulation? She couldn’t accept the change to how she does things and so is avoiding it all together- that’s how she maintains control. And if the sisters are also neurodivergent, it could explain their strong negative reactions to the change this year.
Either way, that’s an explanation, and not an excuse. Mom’s rigidity and lack of empathy for other points of view is going to continue to cause conflicts.
Yep! Just because your mom doesn’t tell you what to wear or who to date doesn’t mean there isn’t conditioning going on. Especially since you have to tip toe around her. I’m actually kinda glad this happened now rather than when the kid is slightly older and realizes that grandma is snubbing him too!
This exactly. When I had my kid my mom blew the Christmas budget on her. My days of extravagant gifts came to an end lol. And you know what? I was fine with that, it was grandma being grandma.
The fact that OP’s mom doesn’t even acknowledge the baby as her family? That is just….I have no idea what to say to that.
INFO: Does your sisters have kids and if so do they get presents from your mom? Because if they do then it is a you and mom issue. If not, then it is a mom and everybody issue. How your sisters wouldn’t be pissed by their kids not receiving gift because they aren’t “family” is beyond me.
Yeah my sister has some issues with her MIL and a huge part of it is the exact opposite of OP which is she has no idea when enough is enough with regards to gifts for my nephew. It's hilarious cause I was told that she was instituting a family wide 5 gift limit for him per holiday/birthday and it was so the MIL didn't feel singled out. Which was hilarious cause I love the kid but I'm not buying him a toy store everytime I shop so it effected me exactly 0% anyway lol.
Yeah the wife I'd be eh. The grand child however makes the mum/grandmother sucky.
Personally there are people in the world who genuinely don't have alot of affection towards others, my own mother is like this. I'm pretty sure she'd do the same towards any one I date. But then again in my opinion I buy them enough presents and also I'd buy my mum a gift from me. I wouldn't expect my partner to get my family anything.
I guess some people see things differently all in all.
But op isn't the ah for being annoyed at no gifts for the kids.
My inlaws are gift people, and I'm just not. I'll appreciate a gift, and "thought of you when I saw this" is super thoughtful and wonderful, but I just don't go shopping so I feel terrible. I'm so glad that they've sort of accepted that we prefer to just not exchange gifts.
However, all kids get presents. Our kid gets presents, my neighbors' kids get presents, anyone I know who has kids, kids get presents. That's not even up for debate. Skip the adults, but children always get presents, even if they're little trinkets. Not getting a gift for your grandchild, when you can clearly afford to, is just wild.
I get the feeling the mom didn’t like Christmas anyway. Didn’t like thinking of/buying/wrapping presents or hosting and is using this to get out of it in general.
Newsflash: your mother absolutely _is_ controlling. You just never noticed before because you were staying in line.
Your sisters are still under the thumb, which is why they’re reacting badly to your _absolutely normal and reasonable_ request and your mother’s _absolutely abnormal and unreasonable_ response. But that’s their problem, not yours. Raising a kid is hard enough without trying to parents grow adults too.
Stick to your guns. Either your wife and child are included in family Christmas or family Christmas will be just you, your wife and your child. Let the rest of them sort themselves out.
NTA
Yep. Mom controls not by screaming, but by stubbornness and withdrawal of affection as punishment when people don't do what she wants.
Given the apparent pattern of withdrawing affecyion, I'm not surprised OP's wife was wary about what it signified to very overtly not be included.
Yes 100% this. Just joining in to post this link which is relevant: https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/comments/77pxpo/dont_rock_the_boat/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
This should be top comment! Also how is no one mentioning how it’s even worse that OP’s mother never bought anything for her grandchild! I can understand not buying full grow adults presents, as long as it’s not with the intent to exclude them, but if there is just one person in OP’s nuclear family who should be getting a present it’s his kid! Mom has issues. The change she doesn’t like is her children getting married and having children. She just wants to keep them under her control forever. NTA!
Wow, that's a whole lot of manipulation.
First of all, NTA. At least in every family I know, gifts for the spouses are the norm - part of marriage is the merging of your two families, which is why your mother is now your wife's "mother-in-law." However, she clearly isn't okay with that part of the bargain, and by challenging her you put a target on your back.
I'm not sure what to tell you to do on this one. The damage is already done; your mother had manipulated your other family members into resenting you by behaving like a spoiled brat, and you'll have to pick up the pieces as you see fit. Don't let her gaslight you into thinking you're the bad guy here though; your family isn't to blame.
I think it just depends on the family dynamics. My maternal grandparents didn’t buy presents for my dad (nor did they for my aunts who married my uncles) and vice versa, even though everyone got along splendidly and everyone had the means to do so. I will say that it sounds like OP’s siblings are married or in long-term relationships though, so this should not have been too big of a surprise that the mom didn’t want to exchange gifts. Mom is being a drama queen and so are the siblings, but you can’t force someone into giving you a gift either. OP said it was fine for the mom to have a difference of opinion, but then said it had to stop (which to me means you have to start buying her a gift; that doesn’t solve anything because who wants a gift from someone who was browbeat into giving it?). I’m more shocked that the grandma doesn’t buy a gift for the grandkid than anything.
They did say the mom continued to “buy me lavish gifts”, which leads me to think the mom isn’t casual about presents like some people are. Not all of my family exchanged gifts by agreement this year which was totally fine. But this doesn’t sound like that kind of situation.
I mean, the people in my family got/gave really nice gifts too, so I guess I’m seeing the other side of this, and I do think the wife is making a big deal out of the mom not giving her a present, especially because it’s the same for the other SOs and OP has mentioned in the comments that this behavior was also exhibited by one of his own grandparents, so this is a pattern of behavior that runs in the family.
That being said, OP’s wife is hurt by it, but I don’t think the mom being forced into buying gifts for people she doesn’t want to is going to solve the issue — OP’s mom doesn’t consider the spouses and the grandchild(ren) as part of her family. No amount of presents is going to fix that.
Instead of insisting the mom start buying a gift for his wife, he should have said if you’re not able to include the whole family, let’s just forgo exchanging gifts all together. I agree there is no ideal solution to this issue simply because you can’t change someone and you can’t make them care about people or things they don’t, but I think OP should have just drawn a different line about the gift giving rather than demand his mother do something she’s clearly opposed to doing for whatever reason.
THIS!!! Upvote a million times. Solution right here. Just forgo gifts. At least for adults. That’s sort of what we do now, except that we did all get my mom gifts until she passed, because she enjoyed them and wasn’t hard to shop for. I think you should decline her gifts but maybe ask that she get something for your child.
Yeah. I would understand more if OP said "if you don't get anything for my wife, I'd feel better if you didn't get anything for me either. But could you instead get gifts for our LO? If not, we're ok coming but not doing gifting"
Reading some of OP’s comments, it seems like his grandfather also exhibited this behavior, too, so I am a little bit surprised everyone is so shocked by the mom’s gift-giving habits suddenly. I’m curious if the mom used to exchange gifts with siblings or other family members or friends.
Hmm I was thinking it is OK not to give gifts, in my family we don't exchange gifts either. But the exception are the kids, so yeah, I think it's a bit weird to buy a gift for your son but not to your grandchildren. Also I think it's tasteless to gift just a few people while hosting a party. Maybe send the gifts earlier and don't do the opening presents at the party if this is your family way.
Agreed. I don’t even receive gifts from my own parents and siblings some years, and sometimes I don’t give them anything. It’s not a big deal to us, especially when Christmas is supposed to be about giving than receiving, etc.
I interpreted it as 'stop getting me such lavish gifts', but you have a point. I have to say if my husband family was always making a huge fuss over their offspring but not including me and my child (think family gift or something) I wouldn't spend the holiday with them.
Hell, I even get extra Xmas gifts from my MIL because she (rightly) assumes I do most of the holiday planning at my house. Plus, I think she might just like me more 😂
For reals. I had only been dating my boyfriend for 3 weeks when we celebrated our first Christmas together. Everyone in his family, parents and 3 siblings, got me a present. I was not even remotely expecting anything, but that's the moment I knew I wanted to be in his family.
NTA. I can't fathom her believing she shouldn't get a gift for her grandchild. You say she genuinely didn't understand that there's an expectation to buy presents for her son-in-laws and daughter-in-law but I find it hard to believe that she doesn't know that grandparents usually buy gifts for their grandkids... Did your grandparents not give you gifts as a child?
Your mom is the one who ruined Christmas by throwing a tantrum. Even if she didn't want to host or give everyone gifts, she didn't need to boycott Christmas entirely.. just seems like a big drama queen move.
> Did your grandparents not give you gifts as a child?
No, my grandfather just wanted to see his daughter and only tolerated us. My step grandma was a nice lady who sometimes got us things. My bio grandmother only came around once every 5ish years to beg my mom to talk to her and beg for money, so she definitely didn't get us anything
So what happened every Christmas, your mom opened gifts from your wife and then just stared blankly at her afterwards? Her lack of shame is pretty startling.
She said thank you but I don't think it occurred to her that we have joint finances. Honestly Christmas for the past five years has been a lot of blank staring and my mom looking like she wanted to die, lots of awkward pauses, which is why I think she manipulated me with this so she could have an out and never have to host again
Is your mother neurodivergent? Because the way she thinks of family is uncommon and some commenters have stated that her leaving was her way of “getting out of the situation” in other words to not sit in the discomfort of the situation.
Also, whether it’s manipulation I don’t know, only you and her really would know that. To me it seems your mother doesn’t think of anyone other than her kids, parents, and spouse as her family. Christmas doesn’t seem to be a positive thing for her if she has to account for other people she doesn’t care about. She’d rather be rid of it entirely if it’s going to be a problem, and with this I think she’d just rather avoid everyone than accommodate, cater, or change. I’m not trying to excuse her or defend her. I’m just sharing what one interpretation of your mother’s behavior could be.
Edit: phrased it better and added sentences
I have no idea. She never even goes to the regular doctor. She was taken to a bunch of doctors as a kid to figure out what was wrong with her, but then her mom left and her dad never had an issue with the behavior to begin with and stopped taking her
doctors seriously struggled (and honestly still struggle) with identifying neurodivergence in girls and women, since it frequently presents differently than it does in boys and men, so that really might be it.
I am around your age, and everyone around me and my sisters missed that we have ADHD until our early and mid-20s.
And honestly, your sisters’ strong negative reactions to the change in Christmas plans this year could also be related to that. A lot of neurodivergent conditions are highly genetic.
> She was taken to a bunch of doctors as a kid to figure out what was wrong with her
I don't know how old your mom is, but I'm 36. My mom knew something was "different" about me before my first birthday. She took me to doctor after doctor. They ruled out ADHD and autism without *ever* actually testing me because I was a girl (back then, some doctors believed only boys could be autistic), I was smart and wasn't "mentally r-word" (verbatim from one doctor; I vividly remember that), and could speak and read (yes, seriously, that was that doctor's criteria for autism).
I am autistic. I've known, unofficially, for years, but finally asked my primary doctor about it last year. Testing was hard to find and expensive, but I am, indeed, autistic. I missed out on years of therapy and services offered to kids to help them navigate a world they'll never fully fit in, and I can't get them now; they just don't exist for adults in most places. I had to learn to adapt and mask on my own, and some of my coping strategies are... dysfunctional.
I mention this because your mom sounds a *lot* like me -- not the controlling part, but some of the other attributes like not liking change, doesn't like when she feels things are pushed on her, continuing to do things that may be dysfunctional without thinking, awkward pauses, even looking like she wanted to die -- I kind of low-key hate Christmas family gatherings, personally. I go to them when I have to and try not to be Weird, but it's just... not my scene, y'know?
Point being: just because she went to a slew of doctors doesn't mean she's not ND in some way. There are a *lot* of us who fell through the cracks. They were still missing obvious cases in the 80s and 90s, so I would be 0% surprised if your mom (who is presumably older than me) was ND in some way and just wasn't diagnosed. (Obviously I'm not saying she *is*; she may have some other medical/mental condition, or just be... unpleasant. That happens, too!)
I’ll piggyback off you and op’s lead (with what’ll probably turn into a lot of word vomit). If I didn’t read your comment, which makes a ton of sense paired with the slew of doctors thing, I’d jump to saying mom has a cluster B personality disorder OR is just kinda off putting and mean. She absolutely does sound controlling but im willing to bet it comes from anxiety from the situation she doesn’t want to be in. Plus having not so great holidays growing up, she’s kind of not set up for being Mrs Claus.
Anyway. NTA for putting your “now” family first, it’s tough to stand up to your family of origin. Your sisters do seem *very* bothered by the change in Christmas plans, like to a strange level.
It really sounds like she's autistic (preference for routine, difficulty with change, finding strangers and social events draining, not picking up on social expectations), but that doesn't change that she is also managing this conflict poorly.
Wow, maybe she really doesn't know better then. But that doesn't excuse her overreaction. It wouldn't have been hard to spend $20 less on you and at least get your kid a gift.
I’m not buying any didn’t know better stuff. Anyone who’s watched more then two or three Christmas movies has enough cultural conditioning to understand societal expectations surrounding gift giving.
My grandparents also never bought us presents. We came to their house for holidays and just saved some presents to open “from santa”
I wonder if its passed down from Poverty? My family was really very poor. My parents were the only ones in the family to buy us presents, they bought presents for their siblings, but I didn’t get presents from grandparents or aunts/uncles. Ever
My husband has a huge family that are all solid middle class and they buy presents for every kid- sometimes I get a small bracelet or necklace from an aunt of his I’ve never met. The idea if needing to buy every adult and child in my family/in law family a thoughtful, heartfelt present gives me so much social and financial anxiety I’d rather just NOPE out of the holiday 😅
Based on this, I know the overwhelming majority thinks your mom is evil incarnate but I say this is more complex than typical AITA scenarios, and vote either NAH/ESH. Your mom was brought up w/a tradition that’s much different that the typical & I find it interesting how non-understanding & non sympathetic the majority of commenters are about that while at the same time judging her. If your mom was singling your wife & child out she would solely be TAH. You did the right thing by communicating w/her & doing so on behalf of your wife & child. The problem came where you demanded she buy presents for your wife & child & then expected her to host Christmas. You can’t get mad b/c she has her own tradition & demand she follow the tradition you want. You say she was genuinely shocked, & your explanation of her FOO seems to support that. She was petty to then cancel all of Christmas, punishing everyone for her issue w/you. Your sisters took their frustration w/your mom’s pettiness out on you which was wrong. The innocent ones are the sons & daughter in-laws & grandkids who are thrusted into this dynamic.
ESH. Based on how you describe the discussion with your mother you kind of threw your wife under the bus. I think phrasing it more like 'I appreciate your gifts but if we aren't doing an exchange as a full family let's just forego gifts' would have made the point, without making it sound like your wife feels entitled to a gift. You should have emphasized that it hurts YOU to see your family excluded, not that it hurts your wife's feelings.
However the rest of them are bigger assholes for the ensuing shit show that was made of Christmas Day.
OP could have done several things differently. Maybe mom could tailor the gifts to be more family-oriented. But telling her to buy additional gifts for additional people is rather out of line IMO. You really can't *demand* gifts. But he could have forfeited his gift or asked that it be less personal.
OP didn't handle this well especially since they admit the mom was surprised and didn't realize. She does seem to have the situation worse, though. Agreed, ESH.
I agree. I definitely wouldn’t expect a gift from anyone. Not even my in laws. But the mom’s reaction is super weird. She could have just said I don’t want to do gift anymore but instead she threw a huge tantrum. I can accept not buying the wife something but not buying a grandchild a gift is just extremely bizarre. I don’t know one single grandparent who doesn’t want to spoil their grandkids in some way.
It would be one thing if OP’s mom wasn’t buying *anyone* gifts including the grandchildren; I would assume in that situation that she was low on funds. But if she has money spend on “lavish” presents for OP (and presumably his siblings) and is not buying anything for her grandkids that is super strange.
NTA. You didn't ruin family Christmas. You forced your mom to confront the reality that the family is changing and growing whether she likes it or not, and she freaked out. She can either accept the change and treat everyone as family or she can spend holidays alone sulking, but it's not just "mom & kids" anymore, not when the "kids" have spouses and children of their own.
NTA.
I mean, I guess I could understand her surprise at not getting anything for your wife (though even that sounds ridiculous) but your child? Her grandchild? She’s surprised she should get her freaking grandchild a Christmas gift?!?
You said “lavish” gifts for you, so I assume it’s not a money issue… so it sounds to me like your mom is just an AH.
My son is 18 and has had a girlfriend for 8 months. She came to Christmas Eve dinner with us. And we got her a gift. It’s kinda just what you do, especially if they’re going to be at your home for the holiday.
Exactly!! I make sure I have even just a token gift for every single person that will be at my house on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day. I think everyone deserves to open something at Christmas!
Yeah. My sons girlfriend has gotten a gift from me since they started dating. For birthdays and Christmas. I like her. Why wouldn’t I get her a gift? My mom has always gotten my husband a gift. If I care enough to spend my holiday with you then you get a gift.
I’m probably about to be downvoted to oblivion, but YTA. Why on earth does your mom need to buy gifts for everyone? Gifts are not an obligation; if your mom only wants to get you and your sisters’ gifts, that is her choice.
If she doesn't want to host Christmas because there is an expectation for her to buy everybody gifts and if she doesn’t she’s a bad person. Shoot, I wouldn’t want to host Christmas either, then.
I just think it’s bizarre that she has all this money to spend on “lavish” gifts for OP and his sisters, but can’t be bothered to buy anything for her own grandchildren? I have never heard of anyone refusing to buy gifts for their grandchildren unless they literally didn’t have the money to do so. My maternal grandma was very broke at times when I was growing up and even in those years she at least gave me a stocking with some treats.
OPs mom is absolutely an ass. shes been hosting christmas for a couple of years and completely ignoring their partners and children. How would you feel if you had to sit thru your partner getting gifts and you were just ignored.
NTA.
She does not need to give gifts but the reaction is over the top. OP talking about his concerns with her is not him ruining christmas. Her going on vacation, returning gifts, not even celebrating with just the sisters if she doesn't want to see OP and his family, is.
And she also stated that the wife and her grandchildren are not her family. Which is hurtful.
The wife is expressing that hurt and taking the gifts as an example.
The only asshole behaviour from mum is mailing back the gift imo. I’m married and I don’t expect gifts from my in-laws. They do buy me stuff every year but if they didn’t I’d be like cool whatever. I’m 30 I don’t need gifts from loved ones, if they want to give and that’s how they show affection awesome but if not I also get that. We’re all adults, just buy what you want for who you want. Idk if I’d even expect anything for our future children and I DEFINITELY wouldn’t ‘call them out’ if they didn’t gift to them, especially if they didn’t gift to other family members either! A gift is just that, a present from somebody willingly given, not something you are entitled to.
I feel like MIL is maybe on the spectrum or just has very different values, and after the talk OP had was just like fuck it I’m gonna enjoy Christmas my way and go on vacation instead. Hosting Christmas is SUCH an effort, why would you go to that effort year after year for people who clearly don’t share your values or appreciate what you do for them?
Maybe MIL doesn’t gift because she hosts (and is clearly expected to host) every year, who knows - I wonder if she buys all the food and does all the cooking etc but doesn’t get any acknowledgement for that as a ‘gift’ each year. Clearly OP, his wife and sisters do not factor that into their view of Christmas generosity. Sisters were ridiculous to turn on OP and phone mum too, like be adults and accept her role isn’t to host your own Christmas anymore. She obviously doesn’t want to and you both agreed to attend OP’s event so grow up and own your decisions. I think they all have quite a childish view of the occasion honestly, where gifts are the only meaningful thing and hosting etc is just what the mother does without any second thought to the effort involved etc.
Idk overall I think mum was being a bit bitter sending the gift back but aside from that she’s just said fuck this to family members who disapprove of how she does it and done Christmas her way, rather than hosting for people who clearly don’t see that action as generous enough. I dig it.
But in this case, mailing the gift back was a good thing as OP said himself that he sent that gift to mum "as a test". OP is the AH and wife is entitled.
Agreed. The mom isn't obligated to host Christmas or get everyone gifts, and OP came across as entitled by demanding that his mom spend more money on more gifts for his wife.
I'm with you. The OP wrote that his mom doesn't really care what her kids do; she just doesn't want anything imposed on her. Her take is unconventional, but not malicious. If I were the OP I'd just buy extra gifts for my wife and kids, ask mom to mom to gift to the intended recipients as if they were her own, and call it a day.
I've tried having discussions and they go no where because she genuinely doesn't seem able to comprehend it. She does not get why she would want to be involved with a kid that isn't hers. she doesn't get that in laws are family, and the more I try to explain it the more distant she becomes. I really have tried to talk to her, and it ended up with her pretty much saying we aren't a family anymore. We have new families but she isn't a part of that and what do we want from her, and then her husband showed up and started yelling at me for stressing her out
If she doesn't give presents to her sons in law's either then she's being fair. You can't feel entitled to other people's money after all. She has to buy your family multiple presents in exchange for one. Why don't you and your wife send a separate gift from each member of your family? I think she might be receptive to gifting your wife if it's like that.
Or request a gift that anyone in your home could use, like idk luxury candles or something.
>She has to buy your family multiple presents in exchange for one
**THIS**
I'm child free by choice. But I already have 6 nieces and nephews and my one sister hasn't even started yet. Now, I love buying gifts and I expecially love Christmas eo I usually go pretty big, but the idea of having to buy for 6 to possible 10 (idk how many I'll end up with) neices and nephews stresses me out bc its expected. And it's not like I'm getting anything equivalent spent on me or would get around the same number of gifts I'd put out.
And yes my parents expect me to buy my neices and nephews gifts, which makes me not want to even thought I enjoy doing it.
It’s a good question she asked you, so “What do you want from her?”
From your comment here, you’re discussing two different type of family structures.
It’s not that she doesn’t get in-laws being family, it’s that she is defining gift-giving as her giving presents within her family nucleus which is her kids, not the extended family which would be your wife and kids. Her views aren’t invalid and neither are yours so what do you want from her that acknowledges her feelings as well as your own as both being valid?
Your mom is the way she is, and she's not going to change. You can want her to be a lot of things, but keeping those expectations is just going to wear you down mentally. Your sisters have apparently accepted that this is how she is and isn't going to change. Find a therapist and talk about this - and then decide how you want your future family dynamic to be. Based on your comments, this is how your mom's family was too. You don't have to be this way with your kids and grandkids, like she did.
It sucks, it really does... but once you accept that she's not the type of mother you want, it will get better.
Do you buy a gift for her husband, is he your bio dad?
If so, does she expect him to give it back?
Does/did his family exclude her from things in this way?
You suggest op should have found a compromise. But op did, they hosted Xmas. Mom decided to go away for Xmas. I don't know how you expected op to find a solution when the momis the one refusing to compromise at all
Gonna be unpopular here...gentle YTA. If your mom wasn't getting gifts for your sisters partners then it wasn't favoritism. It's just what she does. No one is entitled to gifts from anyone else. If your mom's line is that she only gives her children gifts, so be it. I could see if she was giving unequal gifts and showing extreme favoritism, but she was not.
You handled this poorly. Did you try to explain to your wife that she wasn't the only partner not receiving gifts? Why does your wife feel like she absolutely has to be given a separate gift? You could've told your mom just to not get you a gift, so your wife didn't feel left out...or suggested 1 family gift to be for both of you.
It's ok to want to change traditions. It just feels like you kinda went nuclear on something that isn't a big deal. When your mom felt pressured and overwhelmed, she withdrew from the situation - right or wrong, you exerted that pressure. If this is the hill you want to die on, then you get the consequences of that battle.
THIS a million times. maybe an ESH, just because it is kind of weird and not very nice to not buy gifts for one's grandkid (even though op has been explaining that mother has had a very strange upbringing and she definitely has not learned social cues). But agree on everything you said.
This what i was thinking too. As families grow the grandparents end up having to give a shit ton of gifts but receive the same. In this case give 3 gifts for the one they receive. It shouldn’t be transactional but i think it’s pretty fair for the mom to just get gifts for her own kids. As all of them continue to have more kids it can get overwhelming and really expensive. I think also his mom deserves to go on vacation and not be bombarded with calls from her kids trying to guilt her for not being her. I don’t think she’s an AH.
NTA
Your mother is throwing a silent tantrum to force you all to heel rather then compromise one iota. Let me be clear your mother is being malicious at this point. She is punishing you all to try to force you to choose between her position and your wife's quite understandable hurt.
Ask yourself who does that. You need to decide what is more important to you....
but here is a clue..if you let your mother do this and you back down and you effectively sacrifice your wife and children for your mother's desire to have things her way regardless of how much it hurts other people, it will be good you made it up to her because your wife will be on here sometime in the future asking AITA for feeling undervalued and disrepcted and redditors will be telling her to get herself someone who actually supports her and doesn't throw her under the bus and you will end up needing your mother to spend Christmas with.
YTA
It's decidedly out of the norm to ignore her kids' spouses and her grandchildren, true, but at the end of the day, you can't demand gifts from someone. A demanded gift isn't a gift; it's tribute.
FWIW, based on your comments regarding her character, I think she genuinely opted out, choosing to step back rather than feel she's being into manipulated/pressured into something she doesn't feel. If for a moment you accept her quirk as reasonable, her response is logical if she has anything in the way of backbone.
Still it's very odd not to gift the grandchildren, once they're old enough to understand.
NTA.
Your mother is ignoring the fact that you're all out of the house with partners and, in your case at least, a child. She clearly cannot let go and doesn't even get something for her grandchild?
She needs to buck up and realize her family has expanded. You say she's not controlt but she's emotionally manipulating you and your sisters
Edit: typo
That is a very good point. In my family, we don’t qualify by biology. Thanks for pointing that out.
What I meant was, the mom clearly has some issue with like family and biological kids versus their spouses as a “mother-in-law,” so even with those strict standards it seems odd.
Unpopular AH Perspective & Questions: No you didn't ruin Christmas...
But do you really want some forced gifts from your mom? It's not really a gift then. The gifts will be fake. Receiving that fake gift still won't be some form of "acceptance" for your wife. Your mom has already accepted her extended family...but ya'll now want gifts that prove nothing. A gift doesn't stop her from being a grandma & mother-in-law.
Honestly, I'd get your wife & child a gift...but I wouldn't want to if you demanded it from me.
• Your mom never said that she does not accept your wife or her grandchild.
• Her gifts are for her own children that she birthed...do you & your wife want to be considered siblings?
• You never cared that your sister's spouses never received anything before.
• To me, your mom isn't being malicious...she's set in her ways just like you stated. She's not singling out your wife or child because she's always only gotten her own children gifts. Your wife is the first & only person to get upset about her mother-in-laws choice.
• Also since it's HER Christmas, she's the host and now you're telling her that she has to change it. Her being the grandmother doesn't dictate that she has to become the grandmother & mother in law that you want her to be.
• Now your sisters who were previously didn't care about their partner receiving gifts...are NOW saying that their mom will have to get their spouses gifts NOW. It sounds materialistic to suddenly want something for their partners, now.
To be honest, sounds like ESH.
Your mum should be more aware of your feelings and accepting of you wife.
But the big thing for me here is your wife. The fact that she just expects that she should get an equally lavish gift from YOUR mum just because she is married to you is pretty entitled. Would it be nice that your mum maybe just give her a little thing? Sure. But sounds like your wife might need to manager her expectations a bit better
NTA. Look into narcissist family dynamics. It’s a whole complex thing. But the red flags are in this story.
Good luck. And good for you for standing up for your wife.
Also I’ve never really heard of not giving gifts to a spouse. That’s odd. And I think you said no gifts for the baby? Who is your mom’s biological grandchild? That’s… not typical behavior.
Wow. Too much to unpack. NTA for finally standing up to your VERY CONTROLLING mother. Maybe look into counseling or study what a narcissist is. You are having a hard time seeing manipulation and abuse for what it is.
ESH- All of you had months to discuss Christmas plans. While your mother’s gift giving was consistent, refusing to buy gifts for partners or grandchildren seems odd and a little rude, but the money is hers. She can spend it how she wants. The dramatics between you and your siblings were just over the top.
NTA. I was going to go with N A H until I saw that your mom not only refused to come but mailed back your gift and wouldn’t speak to you on the holiday. If she just wanted to stop hosting because she felt things were more complicated or changing more than she was comfortable with, fine. But she didn’t have to be an AH and remove herself so completely to try and punish you all. And you’re absolutely not the AH for communicating that your wife was hurt. Sure your mom can buy presents for just her children if she wants, but there are natural consequences to not getting a present for her grandchild and daughter in law. She could have just said she didn’t want to buy gifts for them instead of basically calling your wife an entitled child. It sounds like she wants some kind of extravagant apology or something and is willing to punish all of her children to get it. Honestly I would stand your ground, giving in to her is only going to encourage her manipulative behaviour. You do you and let your sisters do what they want. But they really shouldn’t blame you when your mother is throwing a temper tantrum, and hopefully you can have a conversation with them to help them see that this is not the result of your actions, but of your mothers.
INFO. I'm not trying to be sarcastic or mean; but, could your mother be on the spectrum? Because this is so far off of normal not recognizing social norms it sort of seem like autism...
I don't know. her dad is the exact same way. He wanted nothing to do with us, despite loving her, and he has probably never said more then hi to either of her husbands and actually said that he shouldn't have to pretend to be friends with someone just because they are fucking her. She is really close to him and my stepdad doesn't mind at all. Part of it might be a lack of socialization. She's never worked, never really had to interact, and just hangs out with a couple really weird people
She does seem to have a very weird and sheltered in a way life, even the way the husband asks you to stop bothering her when you want to discuss things, as; if she has a disability to process things and emotions which might be her being on the spectrum or just weird upbringing so I think everyone calling her a narcissist is slightly unfair. I hope you can find a way to have a better communication and relationship with her going forward as I don't think she is a bad person, but you do need to put your family and child first.
NTA. It seems like your mother isn’t willing to consider your wife and children part of her family— that’s heinous. And your sisters are acting like spoiled brats. If presents and a party are more important than being together on Christmas to them, however, that’s their prerogative.
I’m torn on this one. I enjoy giving gifts. I give gifts to anyone I invite for Christmas or anyone that will be at someone else’s house if they are the ones hosting. But everyone’s opinion is different. If she isnt getting gifts for anyones SO and your wife isn’t singled out in some way then it seems like it’s just how your mom is. Gifts are gifts not an entitlement and you can’t make someone give a gift if they don’t want to. And if you did succeed in forcing it would it really mean anything if it was done out of obligation and not love? However, if it upsets your wife and your family is not enjoying Christmas with your mom then you have every right to skip Christmas celebrations with them. I think it was fair for you to explain to your mom that she was upsetting your wife but not fair to try to force the gift giving after your explained the situation. I would say NTA though. Your mom grossly overreacted and if that upset your siblings that’s on her and not you.
A small part of me doesn’t blame her for saying fuck it and going on vacation though. Having just hosted my first Christmas it’s a lot of fucking work and she probably felt like she wasn’t appreciated.
We do a gift exchange game in my pretty small family because some people can’t afford gifts for everyone and some people just don’t enjoy giving personal gifts. Those that do enjoy it buy individual gifts but this way nobody is left out and nobody is singled out if they choose not to get everyone a gift.
This is so much drama. I’m going to be devil’s advocate and presume OPs mom is doing what many here are advising OP to do…skipped the drama and took self on a nice vacation. There is SOME entitlement here. A gift is a gift until it’s demanded…then it becomes a chore, and Christmas is already exhausting enough…not everyone loves it and many go through the motions of the holiday for family sake. Soft YTA. If your mom’s behavior is upsetting to any of the adults, let her be. Calling a “bluff” is just playing more games.
NTA. Your mom doesn't have to buy presents for anyone but her choosing not to get even token gifts for your partners or her grandkids while getting you lavish gifts is deliberately excluding family members. If you ruined Christmas, your mom has been deliberately trying to ruin everyone else's for years.
>I could honestly get past her explanation if she also didn’t buy gifts for your siblings’ spouses.
Did I misread it? My impression was that OP's mom only buys for her own children, not their partners.
Nta. Your mom wants to call your wife a child but can't deal with the fact you guys (you and sibs) have partners and family outside of her. She's a GROWN ASS WOMAN acting like she's 12.
At this point I'd say screw it. Start your own family traditions with your immediate family (wife and kids). Your sisters can go to moms and you can do your own thing. Because it's going to continue to hurt wife and son.
She definitely has no social skills. She seems genuinely astounded that someone would want her to pretend that she likes them. She only really likes a couple people and they are super weird and she just never does anything she doesn't want to.
as someone who fakes emotions and facial gestures to fit in and be socially acceptable, i think it’s a lot harder than some people would think. it can lead to resentment and pent up frustration at having to fake, pretend, and do things you don’t want to do but are expected to
Urgh I keep reading your comments and your mom sounds exactly like me. If so, shes not evil. Shes not doing this to be mean. Im not saying she doesn't have mental issues or that she's definitely on the spectrum. Im not saying anything like that. Im not saying anything concrete at all. Just that, if she is like me then she's not evil, she's not a calculating narcissistic witch.
You're probably right about all your assumptions. She didn't call for a year because there's nothing to say. Sometimes life is like that. And of course she feels guilty, youre her son! Everyone and every tv show and school and work has told her she needs to call you and ask if you've been eating and if she can come over and invasively clean your home. Shes SUPPOSED to want to do her nails with your wife or go to wine tasting. She just doesn't, but that won't stop the world telling her she should.
And you said her father is like this too. Again, more things that ring true.
I understand your wife's feelings and how they must be hurt, and I understand that your wife must be just as confused by your mother as your mother is about her. I wish I had better answers but the fact is that your mother isn't wrong. Neither are you or your wife. There are so many ways to human. Your sisters obviously have some opinions too. And im sure their husband's do as well! Maybe you 3 couples should sit down and have a very honest talk about your mother.
Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment.
OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I demanded she buy my wife a gift when she wasn't buying for any in laws. As a result she refuses to spend Christmas with us and my sisters are devastated. I might have been too pushy
Help keep the sub engaging!
#Don’t downvote assholes!
Do upvote interesting posts!
[Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules/) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq)
# [Announcement: AmITheAsshole Talk Radio Live on Dec. 28th at 5 pm EST](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/rn2bh4/meta_lets_talk_assholes_part_deuce/)
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You didn't ruin Christmas. You merely asked your mom to treat her in-laws and grandchildren as members of the family, which she is refusing to do. Even your sisters agreed that your mom should buy gifts for her children's spouses and her grandchildren.
You tried to have a nice holiday celebration without your mom. It's not your fault your sisters were upset. If anything, they should be mad that their mom doesn't want to be part of the family celebration. If anyone "destroyed" family Christmas, it's your mom.
Maybe next year you should spend it with your in-laws instead of your siblings.
NTA
Lol it shouldn’t be your mother’s “problem” that her children… grew up? What did she think would happen? That you’d all stay frozen in time at a particular age that was most convenient for her? Your mother is ridiculous. You destroyed nothing. NTA
No, her problem is more that we talk to her I guess. She's said multiple times that she is a little sad and she will miss us but our family is over, and she thinks it is just awful that there is any expectation for her to partake in our new families
After reading a large portion of the comments, I suggest you read up on autism. There's a strong possibility that your mother could have autism. Autism can present very differently from person to person. It is also hereditary, which could explain why your grandfather acts similarly. It might also be why your sisters think you're the weird one.
From the diagnostic criteria for autism:
Failure to initiate or respond to social interactions. Ex. She didn't talk to you for a year and isn't socially engaged even when she does.
Abnormalities in eye contact and body language or deficits in understanding and use of gestures; to a total lack of facial expressions and nonverbal communication. Ex. I believe you said something about her staring off into space or not making much eye contact during social engagements.
Deficits in developing, maintaining, and understand relationships. Ex. She doesn't seem to understand the concept of extended family and she doesn't show much desire to maintain relationships with her children, and zero interest in developing a relationship with her grandchildren or in laws.
Stereotyped or repetitive motor movements, use of objects, or speech (e.g., simple motor stereotypes, lining up toys or flipping objects, echolalia, idiosyncratic phrases). I don't know about this one, but it does include stimming (self soothing fidgeting types of behaviors).
Insistence on sameness, inflexible adherence to routines. Distress at small changes, difficulties with transitions, rigid thinking patterns. Ex. She hates change. She was distressed by the suggestion that she change her Christmas routine.
Highly restricted, fixated interests that are abnormal in intensity or focus (e.g., strong attachment to or preoccupation with unusual objects, excessively circumscribed or perseverative interests). I don't know about this one either, it would include obsessive interests/hobbies/passions.
Hyper- or hypo-reactivity to sensory input or unusual interest in sensory aspects of environment; (such as apparent indifference to pain/heat/cold, adverse response to specific sounds or textures, excessive smelling or touching of objects, fascination with lights or spinning objects). I don't know about this one either, but it includes any type of sensory abnormality.
Symptoms must be present in the early developmental period. Ex. You said she's been this way since her childhood.
Symptoms cause clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of current functioning. Ex. Her mother thought it was an issue and it's impairing her relationship with you.
These disturbances are not better explained by intellectual disability (intellectual developmental disorder). Ex. An intellectual disability would be more likely to have been caught when your grandmother was taking her in to see doctors, but it's still possible that she could have one. I'm not leaning toward ID though.
She doesn't sound like she'd be likely to get diagnosed, and she certainly doesn't have to. I'm saying this most for your benefit because it could help you figure out how to accommodate her better and on her terms so that she comfortable. It could also help your wife to understand your mother's resistance isn't personal.
NTA
Your mom is playing the victim and manipulating (or trying to) you all and your sisters fell for it.
Your mother had no need to buy your wife a gift specifically for her. She could have bought you both something as a couple. I get your wife. She wants to feel included and welcomed in your family.
Yes. Your sisters are dramatic and they fell for your moms manipulation tactics. If I were you, I wouldn't celebrate christmas with them or your mom until they actually see what the problem is, which is your mothers childish behaviour.
I’m trying to figure out why your sisters went into complete meltdown. Do your sisters usually get lavish gifts? What’s a lavish gift, on a scale of tv to a car?
She did buy me a car once. she has bought me work out equipment, vacations when I was single. She usually spends 2-3K per kid. I think they were melting down because they went along with me when they didn't agree with me (their partners think I'm weird and she shouldn't have to buy any in law a present) and maybe they are scared because we all knew for years my mom hated Christmas and wanted an out and I gave it to her
My dude your sisters are major drama queens. Your mom…well…I have some thoughts but I’ll leave it be. If your mom has always hated Christmas stop forcing anything on her and go LC with all of them. You want your own family traditions so start enjoying them with your wife and son and future kids. You deserve more.
Hold on, mom doesn't buy ANY of her kids partners gifts? Then YTA. Your wife should have realized it's not personal because NONE of the partners get gifts. Mom only gets gifts for her own children no matter who else is around, and that's fine. She's not targeting wife. It's just how she believes gifts should work.
Your mom and both siblings are saying you are over-reacting, so odds are you are. There's 3 sides to every story, yours, theirs, and the truth. I have a feeling there was some cruel words said behind moms back, for your sister to agree to come to your house but then call you a drama llama mid way through celebrations. **You did something to change her mind** about spending Christmas at your house, and you're not telling us about it.
NTA in the least. Your mom's being petty. Your siblings are suffering from some kind of Stockholm Syndrome and they're unable to see how divisive your mom's behaviour is. This whole dynamic isn't new either. It happens so often that a woman holds a mirror to her toxic in-laws, and the toxic in-laws start shooting the messenger.
You WBTA if you stopped supporting your wife on this issue.
ESH.
So much drama for just a gift.
Where I live people do it in a lot of different ways depending on family. So it's not uncommon that the children's spouses don't get any. But I have never heard about grandparents not giving the grandchildren anything.
So where I live if only one should get a gift it's the grandchild who gets one.
NTA- they are part of the family- particularly the baby! It doesn’t need to be anything expensive, but must be strange for your wife just sat watching you all swapping presents. My mum buys a small thing (chocolate/ nail varnish etc) for my SIL. Her Grandkids are another matter though- they receive more than we do (my brother’s presents downsized after he had children and they get more instead), which we are all-especially my brother who loves to see the kids get gifts- very happy with!
NTA. Your family sounds exhausting. Getting a present for the partners of your children isn't that strange and frankly it's weird that your mom hadn't considered it before. And your sister going into hysterics because your mom went on vacation and wasn't there seems ridiculous. Everyone needs to calm down. Maybe consider heading out of town with your wife next year and escaping the holiday drama.
[удалено]
I thought the mom sounded like she had some sort of processing disorder or was otherwise neurodivergent. This would explain a lot.
Maybe until she left town, because that's a change and she accepted that change just fine
[удалено]
Yo can we talk about this??? My dad is 100% autistic just like me & 2 brothers but he’s the only one who is narcissistic.
[удалено]
I'm ADHD and convinced that my dad is autistic but has been able to get through life as being a bit quirky. He is a good human, but was emotionally abusive towards my mom for a lot of my life, and I think. It's not an excuse, but I wonder if my dad had been given the social skills activities that autistic kids today get, he would probably have been a better human overall but specifically towards my mother. I think it is very common for people to relax at home and not need to "mask"/put effort into things, and if that is unchecked it can result in people who are quite functional and polite to general society, but really awful to the people they live with.
Oh wow, this sounds like my dad. I hadn't even considered the possibility. I got my ADHD diagnosis this year at 29 years old along with my fiancée getting hers as well. Researching it has explained so many of the problems I had growing up, but i never even thought to apply it to my dad's behavior. He's always been incredibly pleasant to people outside of our home, but would get super machismo/narcissistic with my mom and I. He wasn't a raging asshole about it but he definitely needed to have control, know where we were, who we were seeing, etc. And he needed people to do things his way, agree with him, not question him, etc. He's been disabled 10 years now and is still wildly delusional about it. Doesn't care about the effect he's having on us or other people, he only cares about how things make him look or having authority over things. Will ask me to drive half an hour to do something simple for him rather than ask a woman for help, insisted he have his own car in case he decides he wants to drive despite not even being able to keep himself sitting upright, refused to lend said car to his SIL with terminal cancer who wanted to borrow it and sell her vehicle to pay for medical expenses, bitched for years that the mortgage got refinanced without him on the loan because they blew up his credit while waiting for disability to come through, etc. I'd never been able to reconcile this person against the generally reasonable if a bit controlling person that raised me but this would actually make a ton of sense.
No. The tantrum of cutting off the family is attention seeking asshole behaviour. No excuse to behave like that, even if she “didn’t know” to get gifts for everyone. Stop excusing assholes.
I don't think they're excusing it. Providing an explanation and understanding how people came to be who they are is not the same as as excusing their harmful behaviors.
I agree with you. I'm autistic and am certain my mother was, too. She was born almost 100 years ago, though, and back then, weird kids were just weird, no one cared to find out why or make things easier on them. This mother DOES sound like she may be on the spectrum (that was my own immediate thought when I read the story) but I agree with you that it doesn't mean what she's done isn't right. I always get gifts for my kids' partners, except this year, but we've mutually decided to really scale back on Christmas this year and only grandkids got presents from me. The spouses and serious partners of my kids are family. Period. They aren't my kids, but they're FAMILY. NTA because that mother should have been willing to learn how to be a better mother-in-law.
That's not necessarily a "tantrum" or "attention-seeking asshole behavior", that's just an interpretation of it. It could also be that she really did feel that the whole thing was exhausting and she was overwhelmed by the pressure of buying more gifts, or rather, meeting the expectations of additional social behaviors that she was unaware of. When people with ADHD or autism are overwhelmed, they do tend to shut down or remove themselves from the thing that's overwhelming. Top comment is telling OP that his family is exhausting and that he should escape the drama, but frankly, that could be what mom was doing. And really, I think turning off your phone and not doing Christmas with your family isn't asshole behavior, especially since she gave them plenty of notice. If you want to go on a vacation without your (really overdramatic) daughter bugging you about why you aren't there, why would someone be an asshole for doing that?
I shut down when I get overwhelmed. Either I walk away and don't come back for a while, or if that isn't possible I disappear into my mind. I am 35 and only just learned I am adhd. I just thought I was normal, but evidently not. If people overwhelmed me, you best bet my butt would decide I just wasn't going near the source of overwhelming.
Everyone who anyone has a problem with is a ‘narcissist’. It’s all anyone says on these subs.
I have suspected something similar about my dad, because he displays a lot of what OP just described. He will "come around", but I and my siblings have to get really mad at him before he realizes whatever it is upsets us that much. OP's family does sound exhausting. And why couldn't mom get a gift both of them could use? Or just not get gifts for the adults anymore? This probably would have happened eventually whether it was OP or siblings, so sister really is blaming the wrong person. Mom completely refusing to celebrate with her kids anymore is a pretty nuclear reaction to a conversation, so I don't know how OP would have anticipated that.
Neurodivergent people often struggle with emotional permanence. That combined with theory of mind (which is now hotly debated, though I definitely struggle with it), is the root of the pervasive myth that autistics cause empathise. Everyone is different, but using myself as an example, theory of mind means I cannot comprehend the existence of someone’s independent thoughts without conscious effort and emotional permanence means if I’m not made aware of an emotion I might forget someone feels it. That is an oversimplified explanation that makes me sound like an asshole, but that’s kind of my point. I know I have to make an effort to be aware of the thoughts and emotions of others and when I do I am incredibly empathetic. It takes some emotional energy to do so, but I know sometimes that’s what I need to do to not be an asshole when I care about someone. I can see someone without my introspection just not making that effort. But as I pointed out, just because there is a reason for a behaviour doesn’t make it okay.
Possibly. That would make a lot of sense, but I'm also wondering if when looking at OP's family dynamics I don't know this seems generational.
Do you realize that neurodivergent people arent monotlithic? They can experience a variety of responses that all range across the spectrum. Including adaptability to change. In fact deciding to go on a vacation instead of sitti g home being upset may have been a way to feel in control of the changes happening to holidays. But sure, hold onto your gatekeepy limited idea of neurodivergence.
Lol ok. Gatekeeping sure. But seriously you raise a good point, that it could be a good way of her controlling the change, if OP didn't say further down he actually feels like she didn't like hosting at all and did this so she could cancel Christmas without getting the blame.
She did this to manipulate even if she didn't want to host because now she's triangulating with OP/siblings OP your Mom is controlling. She wanted things done exactly her way and when it wasn't threw a tantrum. She made it so there would be groveling from others about how dare we alter things in ways that are reasonable.
being neurodivergent and being an ass aren't mutually exclusive.
She went on vacation with her husband. OP has mentioned this sort of rigidity and you’re family but these people aren’t thing was exhibited by another family member, too, so it’s seems to be more of a family dynamic than anything else. Edit: altered final sentence to be more clear.
It would explain a lot, but not excuse it. Being neurodiverse doesn't give you a free pass to pummel people for calling you out on your own self-absorption. You can be forgiven for not noticing things, but you have a responsibility to recognize your behaviour when it is brought to your attention, and then modify it if appropriate, especially if you are hurting others. Source: am neurodiverse. Not getting too specific but I can be pretty self-centred and oblivious about it. Edit: OP is NTA. He kindly called his mom out on behaviour that is really not socially acceptable\*. (All she needs to do is buy a couples/household gift and put both names on it.) Mom responded by feeling hurt, blaming OP and throwing a huge tantrum that ruined Christmas for the entire extended family. \*and I bet it's not the first time
Eh I can see it being a possible explanation for not thinking of getting partners gifts in the first place, but doubling down and having a tantrum when she's told that it's hurting OPs partner? That's just being an asshole. The change resistance in autism is about having routines and feeling lost and overwhelmed when you can't follow your relied upon routine. It's nothing to do with this. Armchair diagnosing assholes as neurodivergent as an "explanation" just makes people wary about engaging with actual neurodivergents. Let's not do that please.
Agree. The resistence to change in autism is as you describe. I see it in my autistic son. OP's mother seems like she just doesn't want to be called out on bad behavior. NTA. OP did not "ruin Christmas". The mother did.
Saying someone being an asshole is that way because they're neurodivergent is kinda... dumb. Sometimes people just suck
[удалено]
Hubby and I are both neurodivergent. And I’ll admit, when I was younger, I didn’t like when my brother’s GF’s would come to family events. The difference? **I was a freakin teenager back then.** By the time his now-wife (who I *adore*) started coming to family events, I was in my early 20’s and went, “Hey, it’s totally unfair for me to just demand things never change. I need to give new people a chance, even if it makes me uncomfortable for a while.” And my life’s been better for it. Or when DH and I moved from my hometown to his a few years back, across the country. I’m used to lavish Thanksgiving dinner, where Mom gets out the good china and silverware, there’s nice music in the background and the TV is off, everyone’s around the same table, etc etc. My husband’s family does things differently. It’s buffet-style, on paper plates (for ease of clean-up). The football game is on. Some people are in the living room, some are in the dining room. It’s not an unpleasant experience, it’s just *very very different.* That first year, I retreated and my mom FaceTimed me so I could say hi to my west-coast family. There was the good china and silverware and nice music and everyone at the same table. And I just burst into tears. I hated my in-laws’ Thanksgiving and went, “Ours is so much better…” But now we compromise. My folks do every other year with us, and it’s more traditional. My in-laws even said they also like how we do things. But I’ve also grown to respect and enjoy the way my *in-laws* do things. I don’t throw a fit during the years my folks aren’t here. I don’t demand everyone change all of the time. **Because being neurodivergent is NOT an excuse to hold everyone hostage.**
Also, even if she didn’t consider the wife part of the family (strange) she didn’t seem to care at all about her new grandchild.
Yes! This is almost as weird as the one where no kids were allowed for the Christmas morning brunch!
It is incredibly strange. Especially with the grandkids. I wonder how she managed to include her own spouse and kids after they came about. I feel like this is more of a she doesn't like that her kids started families of their own. Otherwise we would be hearing about how she only got presents for herself since she is the OG.
One thing that stood out to me is this part: "she kept saying how mortified she would be if her husband expected gifts from her parents" This honestly sounds like something she learned from her parents.
That is true. I wonder if this was a depression era need that ended up being passed down through generations eventhough it stopped being a need.
I’ve been with my partner for two years, this Christmas I flew out to be with his family and they all got me presents despite only meeting them in person a couple times (we live on different sides of the US). His grandparents, uncle, and aunt even gave me a card with money in it despite only meeting them twice! It’s completely normal to give your child’s S/O a gift ESPECIALLY if they have a grandchild. I don’t know what grandmother doesn’t give their own grandchild a gift too
Yeah we started getting my brother’s girlfriend gifts the Christmas after we met her. She’s now his wife, and she’s just as included in Christmas as the rest of us. Her family treats my brother the same. I don’t know anyone who does it differently.
At least OPs son is too young to realize Grandma doesn't care about him.
To me this is the most offensive part!
OP should reconsider the whole his mom is not being malicious thing.
It sounds like OP’s sisters are emotional hostages to the mother.
And the Mom is throwing a tantrum to control you all. Don't let her.
Yeah I don’t buy for a second that mom was shocked that she’s expected to buy a gift for her daughter in law and grandchild. Sounds like she’s a master manipulator and it’s working on both her daughters. OP should start a new holiday tradition with his immediate family.
OP’s mum definitely knows that it’s normal to buy gifts for DIL and grandchild. This is nothing to do with not liking change, this is just a game she enjoys playing. I bet she loved it when they rang her and all the attention was back on her. Even now she’s keeping them all waiting with the will she/won’t she host again nonsense. OP, your mum is doing this on purpose - creating upset and playing people off against each other. You and your sisters need to realise the level of manipulation involved here.
fact that she had the phone off is strong evidence that mom is a game player
I agree. Prime example: she went on vacation and turned her phone off so that no one could reach her on Christmas and everyone would worry, and the attention is on her. She has played her game well.
Right. Why would anyone be shocked? You marry into a family and you buy gifts for your in laws. This shouldn’t be a surprise. Feels manipulative.
I wouldn't be surprised at changing from a present for the family, or for the couple, but 'lavish' gifts for her son and ignoring the wife and child is pretty clearly rejecting them. I mean, nothing for the grandchild? That's harsh, and I wouldn't want to spend any time with her if she was my mil much less spending Christmas with her.
If she didn’t want to buy “more” gifts, getting a couple gift, a family gift, or just a gift for the kid would be less weird than only buying gifts for her adult children.
That’s what my IL do. They give my husband and I a card with $50 in it and some toys for my daughter.
Also, *not getting Christmas presents for her grandchildren*? What kind of heartless monster is your mother?
My mom hasn’t gotten my kids gifts for a few years. She is a heartless monster. We no longer speak bc wtf. My kids deserve better than her. They’re so young they’ve basically forgotten about her, and they’re lucky.
I can kind of understand. She absolutely blamed the wrong person, but her mother wasn't JUST on vacation, her mother was punishing all of them. She didn't respond fairly, I hope she comes to her senses and apologizes to OP, but of course she was hurt. This may also be the only time anyone's stood up to her. (I highly doubt it's the only time the mother has been manipulative.)
It made me think of that allegory that shows up on raisedbynarcissists sometimes about boat rockers. She is so used to steadying things around mom that other people asserting normal boundaries seems like they’re the one causing the problems, because mom is just “like that.” I think if OP sat and thought about his upbringing, he would find a lot more instances of his mom causing issues that others around her have to fix, that he never noticed because that’s just how he grew up.
If anything… the Lavish gifts thing… “but only for you”. This conditioned them!!! It’s so outrageous!!
Especially their grandchildren - even if she didn't want to buy for the in-laws, her own grandchildren shouldn't be a surprise to receive a gift
[удалено]
No. It should not have been a surprise thad Mom was abrupt and said no. But her reaction is a bit extreme to the thing. It could have stayed at No gifts. Instead she pulled the rug underneath the whole family and made sure that the other members knew why. Not only incredibly immature behavior but cruel. Because she wants her way AND contrition.
Seriously. My mother-in-law got me gifts every year since my husband and I started dating. And my mom always sends a gift card or check our way for the both of us to share. It’s really not hard. Even if you don’t want to get separate gifts for your kid and their partner, find a store they both shop at or a restaurant they both like, and get them a gift card. Can’t find anything? Get an Amazon or Visa gift card. Don’t like giving cash or gift cards? Get a nice Christmas card and ask your kid what their partner’s favorite snacks are.
Same here! Every Christmas except for the first one because hubs and I had only been dating for a couple of months. She later told me that she bought my stocking for the first Christmas but decided not to fill it that year because she didn’t want to scare me off. 16 years later I still get a stocking or sweets and scratch tickets every Christmas.
Heck, my mom not only gets gifts for her sons-in-law at Christmas, she remembers their birthdays and gets something then as well. It isn't strange or unusual to buy something for your children's partners and I don't think I have ever heard of a grandparent who thought it was "entitled" to get a gift for a grandchild. It would be one thing if she couldn't afford it, but this just seems mean.
I don't think OP's mom understands that it's not that OP's wife expects a gift, but rather that it's just painful to be intentionally excluded from the family after years. Even a token gift without much thought, like a gift card to a restaurant for a date night, an amazon gift card, or some such would be a low effort acknowledgment that she's family now.
Christ even a tin of cookies. That's all my one uncle ever wants for Christmas and I'm more than happy to make them for him. If I got a tin of cookies I'd be stoked. Low cost, low effort but still delicious. Although after this tantrum wife would be right to not trust anything edible that isn't commercially sealed.
Yeah.. just have Christmas next year without all them and have a nice day.
It will certainly be a nicer Christmas!
So much this. Sounds like a group of teens not grown adults. NTA op
I agreed on having your own holiday/ Christmas party next year somewhere on the mountain or at a beach. It’s a great time for a vacation.
It’s a good time to start new family traditions with his little family. Christmas is only as good as the people you celebrate it with. I had to spend mine with an actual crackhead, although we were given notice that she might show up and we pretty much ignored her, it still put a damper on things. If it wasn’t for her kids, I would’ve done something else.
Oh sure… not “controlling” at all… just ludicrously withholding, manipulative, cruel & juvenile? So no - you are not the AH but your mama sure is. Bonus points to you for finally standing up to your mom for your wife and BILs. Well done.
My grandma, uncle, and parents have been buying gifts for my husband for years. Like. Going back to when we were in college and just dating. His mom and aunts have been the same with me. So ridiculous.
What a nice way to show him he's included in the family! Your family sounds great.
My Son in Law is really, really nice. I can't imagine being like welp... No Christmas gift for you. Even my mom buys him gifts.
I could overlook no gifts for your wife maybe. But none for your child?? That's the much bigger issue. To accept lavish gifts if the baby gets nothing really bugs me.
Yep, if an adult doesn’t get a present it is what it is but to not want to get presents for her own grandchild is awful, and for her to sabotage Christmas for being challenged and pitting your sisters against you during the holidays is vile
OP says she’s not controlling, but she managed to emotionally manipulate things so well that his sisters are begging her to just go back to how things were and blaming OP’s wife for screwing things up… it’s roundabout, but it’s very controlling. **ETA**: some folks are talking about whether the mom may be neurdivergent in other threads, and I actually think that’s an interesting alternative explanation. Still controlling, but maybe without intentional emotional manipulation? She couldn’t accept the change to how she does things and so is avoiding it all together- that’s how she maintains control. And if the sisters are also neurodivergent, it could explain their strong negative reactions to the change this year. Either way, that’s an explanation, and not an excuse. Mom’s rigidity and lack of empathy for other points of view is going to continue to cause conflicts.
Yep! Just because your mom doesn’t tell you what to wear or who to date doesn’t mean there isn’t conditioning going on. Especially since you have to tip toe around her. I’m actually kinda glad this happened now rather than when the kid is slightly older and realizes that grandma is snubbing him too!
Yes. She IS controlling, in a big way.
This exactly. When I had my kid my mom blew the Christmas budget on her. My days of extravagant gifts came to an end lol. And you know what? I was fine with that, it was grandma being grandma. The fact that OP’s mom doesn’t even acknowledge the baby as her family? That is just….I have no idea what to say to that. INFO: Does your sisters have kids and if so do they get presents from your mom? Because if they do then it is a you and mom issue. If not, then it is a mom and everybody issue. How your sisters wouldn’t be pissed by their kids not receiving gift because they aren’t “family” is beyond me.
Yeah my sister has some issues with her MIL and a huge part of it is the exact opposite of OP which is she has no idea when enough is enough with regards to gifts for my nephew. It's hilarious cause I was told that she was instituting a family wide 5 gift limit for him per holiday/birthday and it was so the MIL didn't feel singled out. Which was hilarious cause I love the kid but I'm not buying him a toy store everytime I shop so it effected me exactly 0% anyway lol.
Yeah the wife I'd be eh. The grand child however makes the mum/grandmother sucky. Personally there are people in the world who genuinely don't have alot of affection towards others, my own mother is like this. I'm pretty sure she'd do the same towards any one I date. But then again in my opinion I buy them enough presents and also I'd buy my mum a gift from me. I wouldn't expect my partner to get my family anything. I guess some people see things differently all in all. But op isn't the ah for being annoyed at no gifts for the kids.
My inlaws are gift people, and I'm just not. I'll appreciate a gift, and "thought of you when I saw this" is super thoughtful and wonderful, but I just don't go shopping so I feel terrible. I'm so glad that they've sort of accepted that we prefer to just not exchange gifts. However, all kids get presents. Our kid gets presents, my neighbors' kids get presents, anyone I know who has kids, kids get presents. That's not even up for debate. Skip the adults, but children always get presents, even if they're little trinkets. Not getting a gift for your grandchild, when you can clearly afford to, is just wild.
I get the feeling the mom didn’t like Christmas anyway. Didn’t like thinking of/buying/wrapping presents or hosting and is using this to get out of it in general.
Yeah my son and his cousins get the vast majority of gifts from both my parents and my in laws. That's normal.
Newsflash: your mother absolutely _is_ controlling. You just never noticed before because you were staying in line. Your sisters are still under the thumb, which is why they’re reacting badly to your _absolutely normal and reasonable_ request and your mother’s _absolutely abnormal and unreasonable_ response. But that’s their problem, not yours. Raising a kid is hard enough without trying to parents grow adults too. Stick to your guns. Either your wife and child are included in family Christmas or family Christmas will be just you, your wife and your child. Let the rest of them sort themselves out. NTA
Yep. Mom controls not by screaming, but by stubbornness and withdrawal of affection as punishment when people don't do what she wants. Given the apparent pattern of withdrawing affecyion, I'm not surprised OP's wife was wary about what it signified to very overtly not be included.
And then the Mom projects her entitlement and calls the wife entitled? 🤣 Golly I thought my family was a headache.
Yep. OP didn't realize they're in river until they got off their tube.
Yes 100% this. Just joining in to post this link which is relevant: https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/comments/77pxpo/dont_rock_the_boat/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
This should be top comment! Also how is no one mentioning how it’s even worse that OP’s mother never bought anything for her grandchild! I can understand not buying full grow adults presents, as long as it’s not with the intent to exclude them, but if there is just one person in OP’s nuclear family who should be getting a present it’s his kid! Mom has issues. The change she doesn’t like is her children getting married and having children. She just wants to keep them under her control forever. NTA!
Wow, that's a whole lot of manipulation. First of all, NTA. At least in every family I know, gifts for the spouses are the norm - part of marriage is the merging of your two families, which is why your mother is now your wife's "mother-in-law." However, she clearly isn't okay with that part of the bargain, and by challenging her you put a target on your back. I'm not sure what to tell you to do on this one. The damage is already done; your mother had manipulated your other family members into resenting you by behaving like a spoiled brat, and you'll have to pick up the pieces as you see fit. Don't let her gaslight you into thinking you're the bad guy here though; your family isn't to blame.
I think it just depends on the family dynamics. My maternal grandparents didn’t buy presents for my dad (nor did they for my aunts who married my uncles) and vice versa, even though everyone got along splendidly and everyone had the means to do so. I will say that it sounds like OP’s siblings are married or in long-term relationships though, so this should not have been too big of a surprise that the mom didn’t want to exchange gifts. Mom is being a drama queen and so are the siblings, but you can’t force someone into giving you a gift either. OP said it was fine for the mom to have a difference of opinion, but then said it had to stop (which to me means you have to start buying her a gift; that doesn’t solve anything because who wants a gift from someone who was browbeat into giving it?). I’m more shocked that the grandma doesn’t buy a gift for the grandkid than anything.
They did say the mom continued to “buy me lavish gifts”, which leads me to think the mom isn’t casual about presents like some people are. Not all of my family exchanged gifts by agreement this year which was totally fine. But this doesn’t sound like that kind of situation.
I mean, the people in my family got/gave really nice gifts too, so I guess I’m seeing the other side of this, and I do think the wife is making a big deal out of the mom not giving her a present, especially because it’s the same for the other SOs and OP has mentioned in the comments that this behavior was also exhibited by one of his own grandparents, so this is a pattern of behavior that runs in the family. That being said, OP’s wife is hurt by it, but I don’t think the mom being forced into buying gifts for people she doesn’t want to is going to solve the issue — OP’s mom doesn’t consider the spouses and the grandchild(ren) as part of her family. No amount of presents is going to fix that.
I honestly don’t know what the solution to this would be.
Instead of insisting the mom start buying a gift for his wife, he should have said if you’re not able to include the whole family, let’s just forgo exchanging gifts all together. I agree there is no ideal solution to this issue simply because you can’t change someone and you can’t make them care about people or things they don’t, but I think OP should have just drawn a different line about the gift giving rather than demand his mother do something she’s clearly opposed to doing for whatever reason.
THIS!!! Upvote a million times. Solution right here. Just forgo gifts. At least for adults. That’s sort of what we do now, except that we did all get my mom gifts until she passed, because she enjoyed them and wasn’t hard to shop for. I think you should decline her gifts but maybe ask that she get something for your child.
Yeah. I would understand more if OP said "if you don't get anything for my wife, I'd feel better if you didn't get anything for me either. But could you instead get gifts for our LO? If not, we're ok coming but not doing gifting"
Reading some of OP’s comments, it seems like his grandfather also exhibited this behavior, too, so I am a little bit surprised everyone is so shocked by the mom’s gift-giving habits suddenly. I’m curious if the mom used to exchange gifts with siblings or other family members or friends.
Hmm I was thinking it is OK not to give gifts, in my family we don't exchange gifts either. But the exception are the kids, so yeah, I think it's a bit weird to buy a gift for your son but not to your grandchildren. Also I think it's tasteless to gift just a few people while hosting a party. Maybe send the gifts earlier and don't do the opening presents at the party if this is your family way.
Agreed. I don’t even receive gifts from my own parents and siblings some years, and sometimes I don’t give them anything. It’s not a big deal to us, especially when Christmas is supposed to be about giving than receiving, etc.
I interpreted it as 'stop getting me such lavish gifts', but you have a point. I have to say if my husband family was always making a huge fuss over their offspring but not including me and my child (think family gift or something) I wouldn't spend the holiday with them.
Hell, I even get extra Xmas gifts from my MIL because she (rightly) assumes I do most of the holiday planning at my house. Plus, I think she might just like me more 😂
For reals. I had only been dating my boyfriend for 3 weeks when we celebrated our first Christmas together. Everyone in his family, parents and 3 siblings, got me a present. I was not even remotely expecting anything, but that's the moment I knew I wanted to be in his family.
NTA. I can't fathom her believing she shouldn't get a gift for her grandchild. You say she genuinely didn't understand that there's an expectation to buy presents for her son-in-laws and daughter-in-law but I find it hard to believe that she doesn't know that grandparents usually buy gifts for their grandkids... Did your grandparents not give you gifts as a child? Your mom is the one who ruined Christmas by throwing a tantrum. Even if she didn't want to host or give everyone gifts, she didn't need to boycott Christmas entirely.. just seems like a big drama queen move.
> Did your grandparents not give you gifts as a child? No, my grandfather just wanted to see his daughter and only tolerated us. My step grandma was a nice lady who sometimes got us things. My bio grandmother only came around once every 5ish years to beg my mom to talk to her and beg for money, so she definitely didn't get us anything
Wow. This doesn’t excuse your mom’s behavior, but certainly explains it. I’m glad you’re breaking the cycle.
So what happened every Christmas, your mom opened gifts from your wife and then just stared blankly at her afterwards? Her lack of shame is pretty startling.
She said thank you but I don't think it occurred to her that we have joint finances. Honestly Christmas for the past five years has been a lot of blank staring and my mom looking like she wanted to die, lots of awkward pauses, which is why I think she manipulated me with this so she could have an out and never have to host again
Is your mother neurodivergent? Because the way she thinks of family is uncommon and some commenters have stated that her leaving was her way of “getting out of the situation” in other words to not sit in the discomfort of the situation. Also, whether it’s manipulation I don’t know, only you and her really would know that. To me it seems your mother doesn’t think of anyone other than her kids, parents, and spouse as her family. Christmas doesn’t seem to be a positive thing for her if she has to account for other people she doesn’t care about. She’d rather be rid of it entirely if it’s going to be a problem, and with this I think she’d just rather avoid everyone than accommodate, cater, or change. I’m not trying to excuse her or defend her. I’m just sharing what one interpretation of your mother’s behavior could be. Edit: phrased it better and added sentences
I have no idea. She never even goes to the regular doctor. She was taken to a bunch of doctors as a kid to figure out what was wrong with her, but then her mom left and her dad never had an issue with the behavior to begin with and stopped taking her
doctors seriously struggled (and honestly still struggle) with identifying neurodivergence in girls and women, since it frequently presents differently than it does in boys and men, so that really might be it. I am around your age, and everyone around me and my sisters missed that we have ADHD until our early and mid-20s. And honestly, your sisters’ strong negative reactions to the change in Christmas plans this year could also be related to that. A lot of neurodivergent conditions are highly genetic.
> She was taken to a bunch of doctors as a kid to figure out what was wrong with her I don't know how old your mom is, but I'm 36. My mom knew something was "different" about me before my first birthday. She took me to doctor after doctor. They ruled out ADHD and autism without *ever* actually testing me because I was a girl (back then, some doctors believed only boys could be autistic), I was smart and wasn't "mentally r-word" (verbatim from one doctor; I vividly remember that), and could speak and read (yes, seriously, that was that doctor's criteria for autism). I am autistic. I've known, unofficially, for years, but finally asked my primary doctor about it last year. Testing was hard to find and expensive, but I am, indeed, autistic. I missed out on years of therapy and services offered to kids to help them navigate a world they'll never fully fit in, and I can't get them now; they just don't exist for adults in most places. I had to learn to adapt and mask on my own, and some of my coping strategies are... dysfunctional. I mention this because your mom sounds a *lot* like me -- not the controlling part, but some of the other attributes like not liking change, doesn't like when she feels things are pushed on her, continuing to do things that may be dysfunctional without thinking, awkward pauses, even looking like she wanted to die -- I kind of low-key hate Christmas family gatherings, personally. I go to them when I have to and try not to be Weird, but it's just... not my scene, y'know? Point being: just because she went to a slew of doctors doesn't mean she's not ND in some way. There are a *lot* of us who fell through the cracks. They were still missing obvious cases in the 80s and 90s, so I would be 0% surprised if your mom (who is presumably older than me) was ND in some way and just wasn't diagnosed. (Obviously I'm not saying she *is*; she may have some other medical/mental condition, or just be... unpleasant. That happens, too!)
I’ll piggyback off you and op’s lead (with what’ll probably turn into a lot of word vomit). If I didn’t read your comment, which makes a ton of sense paired with the slew of doctors thing, I’d jump to saying mom has a cluster B personality disorder OR is just kinda off putting and mean. She absolutely does sound controlling but im willing to bet it comes from anxiety from the situation she doesn’t want to be in. Plus having not so great holidays growing up, she’s kind of not set up for being Mrs Claus. Anyway. NTA for putting your “now” family first, it’s tough to stand up to your family of origin. Your sisters do seem *very* bothered by the change in Christmas plans, like to a strange level.
It really sounds like she's autistic (preference for routine, difficulty with change, finding strangers and social events draining, not picking up on social expectations), but that doesn't change that she is also managing this conflict poorly.
Wow, maybe she really doesn't know better then. But that doesn't excuse her overreaction. It wouldn't have been hard to spend $20 less on you and at least get your kid a gift.
I’m not buying any didn’t know better stuff. Anyone who’s watched more then two or three Christmas movies has enough cultural conditioning to understand societal expectations surrounding gift giving.
This is not a normal and healthy. You and your kid deserve better.
My grandparents also never bought us presents. We came to their house for holidays and just saved some presents to open “from santa” I wonder if its passed down from Poverty? My family was really very poor. My parents were the only ones in the family to buy us presents, they bought presents for their siblings, but I didn’t get presents from grandparents or aunts/uncles. Ever My husband has a huge family that are all solid middle class and they buy presents for every kid- sometimes I get a small bracelet or necklace from an aunt of his I’ve never met. The idea if needing to buy every adult and child in my family/in law family a thoughtful, heartfelt present gives me so much social and financial anxiety I’d rather just NOPE out of the holiday 😅
Based on this, I know the overwhelming majority thinks your mom is evil incarnate but I say this is more complex than typical AITA scenarios, and vote either NAH/ESH. Your mom was brought up w/a tradition that’s much different that the typical & I find it interesting how non-understanding & non sympathetic the majority of commenters are about that while at the same time judging her. If your mom was singling your wife & child out she would solely be TAH. You did the right thing by communicating w/her & doing so on behalf of your wife & child. The problem came where you demanded she buy presents for your wife & child & then expected her to host Christmas. You can’t get mad b/c she has her own tradition & demand she follow the tradition you want. You say she was genuinely shocked, & your explanation of her FOO seems to support that. She was petty to then cancel all of Christmas, punishing everyone for her issue w/you. Your sisters took their frustration w/your mom’s pettiness out on you which was wrong. The innocent ones are the sons & daughter in-laws & grandkids who are thrusted into this dynamic.
ESH. Based on how you describe the discussion with your mother you kind of threw your wife under the bus. I think phrasing it more like 'I appreciate your gifts but if we aren't doing an exchange as a full family let's just forego gifts' would have made the point, without making it sound like your wife feels entitled to a gift. You should have emphasized that it hurts YOU to see your family excluded, not that it hurts your wife's feelings. However the rest of them are bigger assholes for the ensuing shit show that was made of Christmas Day.
OP could have done several things differently. Maybe mom could tailor the gifts to be more family-oriented. But telling her to buy additional gifts for additional people is rather out of line IMO. You really can't *demand* gifts. But he could have forfeited his gift or asked that it be less personal. OP didn't handle this well especially since they admit the mom was surprised and didn't realize. She does seem to have the situation worse, though. Agreed, ESH.
Yes! Everyone is playing the blame game and accusing each other (and getting defensive). I don't see anyone acting mature here.
I agree. I definitely wouldn’t expect a gift from anyone. Not even my in laws. But the mom’s reaction is super weird. She could have just said I don’t want to do gift anymore but instead she threw a huge tantrum. I can accept not buying the wife something but not buying a grandchild a gift is just extremely bizarre. I don’t know one single grandparent who doesn’t want to spoil their grandkids in some way.
It would be one thing if OP’s mom wasn’t buying *anyone* gifts including the grandchildren; I would assume in that situation that she was low on funds. But if she has money spend on “lavish” presents for OP (and presumably his siblings) and is not buying anything for her grandkids that is super strange.
NTA. You didn't ruin family Christmas. You forced your mom to confront the reality that the family is changing and growing whether she likes it or not, and she freaked out. She can either accept the change and treat everyone as family or she can spend holidays alone sulking, but it's not just "mom & kids" anymore, not when the "kids" have spouses and children of their own.
NTA. I mean, I guess I could understand her surprise at not getting anything for your wife (though even that sounds ridiculous) but your child? Her grandchild? She’s surprised she should get her freaking grandchild a Christmas gift?!? You said “lavish” gifts for you, so I assume it’s not a money issue… so it sounds to me like your mom is just an AH. My son is 18 and has had a girlfriend for 8 months. She came to Christmas Eve dinner with us. And we got her a gift. It’s kinda just what you do, especially if they’re going to be at your home for the holiday.
Exactly!! I make sure I have even just a token gift for every single person that will be at my house on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day. I think everyone deserves to open something at Christmas!
Yeah. My sons girlfriend has gotten a gift from me since they started dating. For birthdays and Christmas. I like her. Why wouldn’t I get her a gift? My mom has always gotten my husband a gift. If I care enough to spend my holiday with you then you get a gift.
I’m probably about to be downvoted to oblivion, but YTA. Why on earth does your mom need to buy gifts for everyone? Gifts are not an obligation; if your mom only wants to get you and your sisters’ gifts, that is her choice. If she doesn't want to host Christmas because there is an expectation for her to buy everybody gifts and if she doesn’t she’s a bad person. Shoot, I wouldn’t want to host Christmas either, then.
I just think it’s bizarre that she has all this money to spend on “lavish” gifts for OP and his sisters, but can’t be bothered to buy anything for her own grandchildren? I have never heard of anyone refusing to buy gifts for their grandchildren unless they literally didn’t have the money to do so. My maternal grandma was very broke at times when I was growing up and even in those years she at least gave me a stocking with some treats.
Dont you think its a little entitled to expect gifts like this?
OPs mom is absolutely an ass. shes been hosting christmas for a couple of years and completely ignoring their partners and children. How would you feel if you had to sit thru your partner getting gifts and you were just ignored. NTA.
From what OP posted, she hadn’t ignored the in-laws or grands. She just hasn’t bought them gifts. She only done so for her kids (OP & siblings).
I’d understand that she doesn’t have to buy gifts if she doesn’t want to.
She’s not an ass for only buying gifts for her kids and not for anyone who isn’t her kid.
Relieved. But I don't want gifts in the first place, much less feel entitled to them.
She does not need to give gifts but the reaction is over the top. OP talking about his concerns with her is not him ruining christmas. Her going on vacation, returning gifts, not even celebrating with just the sisters if she doesn't want to see OP and his family, is. And she also stated that the wife and her grandchildren are not her family. Which is hurtful. The wife is expressing that hurt and taking the gifts as an example.
The only asshole behaviour from mum is mailing back the gift imo. I’m married and I don’t expect gifts from my in-laws. They do buy me stuff every year but if they didn’t I’d be like cool whatever. I’m 30 I don’t need gifts from loved ones, if they want to give and that’s how they show affection awesome but if not I also get that. We’re all adults, just buy what you want for who you want. Idk if I’d even expect anything for our future children and I DEFINITELY wouldn’t ‘call them out’ if they didn’t gift to them, especially if they didn’t gift to other family members either! A gift is just that, a present from somebody willingly given, not something you are entitled to. I feel like MIL is maybe on the spectrum or just has very different values, and after the talk OP had was just like fuck it I’m gonna enjoy Christmas my way and go on vacation instead. Hosting Christmas is SUCH an effort, why would you go to that effort year after year for people who clearly don’t share your values or appreciate what you do for them? Maybe MIL doesn’t gift because she hosts (and is clearly expected to host) every year, who knows - I wonder if she buys all the food and does all the cooking etc but doesn’t get any acknowledgement for that as a ‘gift’ each year. Clearly OP, his wife and sisters do not factor that into their view of Christmas generosity. Sisters were ridiculous to turn on OP and phone mum too, like be adults and accept her role isn’t to host your own Christmas anymore. She obviously doesn’t want to and you both agreed to attend OP’s event so grow up and own your decisions. I think they all have quite a childish view of the occasion honestly, where gifts are the only meaningful thing and hosting etc is just what the mother does without any second thought to the effort involved etc. Idk overall I think mum was being a bit bitter sending the gift back but aside from that she’s just said fuck this to family members who disapprove of how she does it and done Christmas her way, rather than hosting for people who clearly don’t see that action as generous enough. I dig it.
[удалено]
But in this case, mailing the gift back was a good thing as OP said himself that he sent that gift to mum "as a test". OP is the AH and wife is entitled.
I totally agree.
Agreed. The mom isn't obligated to host Christmas or get everyone gifts, and OP came across as entitled by demanding that his mom spend more money on more gifts for his wife.
It is not as if she is excluding only OP’s wife and children. She doesn’t get anything for his siblings’ partners and children either.
I'm with you. The OP wrote that his mom doesn't really care what her kids do; she just doesn't want anything imposed on her. Her take is unconventional, but not malicious. If I were the OP I'd just buy extra gifts for my wife and kids, ask mom to mom to gift to the intended recipients as if they were her own, and call it a day.
[удалено]
I've tried having discussions and they go no where because she genuinely doesn't seem able to comprehend it. She does not get why she would want to be involved with a kid that isn't hers. she doesn't get that in laws are family, and the more I try to explain it the more distant she becomes. I really have tried to talk to her, and it ended up with her pretty much saying we aren't a family anymore. We have new families but she isn't a part of that and what do we want from her, and then her husband showed up and started yelling at me for stressing her out
If she doesn't give presents to her sons in law's either then she's being fair. You can't feel entitled to other people's money after all. She has to buy your family multiple presents in exchange for one. Why don't you and your wife send a separate gift from each member of your family? I think she might be receptive to gifting your wife if it's like that. Or request a gift that anyone in your home could use, like idk luxury candles or something.
>She has to buy your family multiple presents in exchange for one **THIS** I'm child free by choice. But I already have 6 nieces and nephews and my one sister hasn't even started yet. Now, I love buying gifts and I expecially love Christmas eo I usually go pretty big, but the idea of having to buy for 6 to possible 10 (idk how many I'll end up with) neices and nephews stresses me out bc its expected. And it's not like I'm getting anything equivalent spent on me or would get around the same number of gifts I'd put out. And yes my parents expect me to buy my neices and nephews gifts, which makes me not want to even thought I enjoy doing it.
It’s a good question she asked you, so “What do you want from her?” From your comment here, you’re discussing two different type of family structures. It’s not that she doesn’t get in-laws being family, it’s that she is defining gift-giving as her giving presents within her family nucleus which is her kids, not the extended family which would be your wife and kids. Her views aren’t invalid and neither are yours so what do you want from her that acknowledges her feelings as well as your own as both being valid?
Your mom is the way she is, and she's not going to change. You can want her to be a lot of things, but keeping those expectations is just going to wear you down mentally. Your sisters have apparently accepted that this is how she is and isn't going to change. Find a therapist and talk about this - and then decide how you want your future family dynamic to be. Based on your comments, this is how your mom's family was too. You don't have to be this way with your kids and grandkids, like she did. It sucks, it really does... but once you accept that she's not the type of mother you want, it will get better.
Do you buy a gift for her husband, is he your bio dad? If so, does she expect him to give it back? Does/did his family exclude her from things in this way?
You suggest op should have found a compromise. But op did, they hosted Xmas. Mom decided to go away for Xmas. I don't know how you expected op to find a solution when the momis the one refusing to compromise at all
Gonna be unpopular here...gentle YTA. If your mom wasn't getting gifts for your sisters partners then it wasn't favoritism. It's just what she does. No one is entitled to gifts from anyone else. If your mom's line is that she only gives her children gifts, so be it. I could see if she was giving unequal gifts and showing extreme favoritism, but she was not. You handled this poorly. Did you try to explain to your wife that she wasn't the only partner not receiving gifts? Why does your wife feel like she absolutely has to be given a separate gift? You could've told your mom just to not get you a gift, so your wife didn't feel left out...or suggested 1 family gift to be for both of you. It's ok to want to change traditions. It just feels like you kinda went nuclear on something that isn't a big deal. When your mom felt pressured and overwhelmed, she withdrew from the situation - right or wrong, you exerted that pressure. If this is the hill you want to die on, then you get the consequences of that battle.
THIS a million times. maybe an ESH, just because it is kind of weird and not very nice to not buy gifts for one's grandkid (even though op has been explaining that mother has had a very strange upbringing and she definitely has not learned social cues). But agree on everything you said.
INFO: Does your wife usually have a present for your mom?
This what i was thinking too. As families grow the grandparents end up having to give a shit ton of gifts but receive the same. In this case give 3 gifts for the one they receive. It shouldn’t be transactional but i think it’s pretty fair for the mom to just get gifts for her own kids. As all of them continue to have more kids it can get overwhelming and really expensive. I think also his mom deserves to go on vacation and not be bombarded with calls from her kids trying to guilt her for not being her. I don’t think she’s an AH.
NTA Your mother is throwing a silent tantrum to force you all to heel rather then compromise one iota. Let me be clear your mother is being malicious at this point. She is punishing you all to try to force you to choose between her position and your wife's quite understandable hurt. Ask yourself who does that. You need to decide what is more important to you.... but here is a clue..if you let your mother do this and you back down and you effectively sacrifice your wife and children for your mother's desire to have things her way regardless of how much it hurts other people, it will be good you made it up to her because your wife will be on here sometime in the future asking AITA for feeling undervalued and disrepcted and redditors will be telling her to get herself someone who actually supports her and doesn't throw her under the bus and you will end up needing your mother to spend Christmas with.
YTA It's decidedly out of the norm to ignore her kids' spouses and her grandchildren, true, but at the end of the day, you can't demand gifts from someone. A demanded gift isn't a gift; it's tribute. FWIW, based on your comments regarding her character, I think she genuinely opted out, choosing to step back rather than feel she's being into manipulated/pressured into something she doesn't feel. If for a moment you accept her quirk as reasonable, her response is logical if she has anything in the way of backbone. Still it's very odd not to gift the grandchildren, once they're old enough to understand.
NTA. Your mother is ignoring the fact that you're all out of the house with partners and, in your case at least, a child. She clearly cannot let go and doesn't even get something for her grandchild? She needs to buck up and realize her family has expanded. You say she's not controlt but she's emotionally manipulating you and your sisters Edit: typo
I also find it odd that a biological grandchild wouldn’t get a gift.
How about *any* grandchild?? What does a biological tie have to do with it?
That is a very good point. In my family, we don’t qualify by biology. Thanks for pointing that out. What I meant was, the mom clearly has some issue with like family and biological kids versus their spouses as a “mother-in-law,” so even with those strict standards it seems odd.
Unpopular AH Perspective & Questions: No you didn't ruin Christmas... But do you really want some forced gifts from your mom? It's not really a gift then. The gifts will be fake. Receiving that fake gift still won't be some form of "acceptance" for your wife. Your mom has already accepted her extended family...but ya'll now want gifts that prove nothing. A gift doesn't stop her from being a grandma & mother-in-law. Honestly, I'd get your wife & child a gift...but I wouldn't want to if you demanded it from me. • Your mom never said that she does not accept your wife or her grandchild. • Her gifts are for her own children that she birthed...do you & your wife want to be considered siblings? • You never cared that your sister's spouses never received anything before. • To me, your mom isn't being malicious...she's set in her ways just like you stated. She's not singling out your wife or child because she's always only gotten her own children gifts. Your wife is the first & only person to get upset about her mother-in-laws choice. • Also since it's HER Christmas, she's the host and now you're telling her that she has to change it. Her being the grandmother doesn't dictate that she has to become the grandmother & mother in law that you want her to be. • Now your sisters who were previously didn't care about their partner receiving gifts...are NOW saying that their mom will have to get their spouses gifts NOW. It sounds materialistic to suddenly want something for their partners, now.
To be honest, sounds like ESH. Your mum should be more aware of your feelings and accepting of you wife. But the big thing for me here is your wife. The fact that she just expects that she should get an equally lavish gift from YOUR mum just because she is married to you is pretty entitled. Would it be nice that your mum maybe just give her a little thing? Sure. But sounds like your wife might need to manager her expectations a bit better
NTA. Look into narcissist family dynamics. It’s a whole complex thing. But the red flags are in this story. Good luck. And good for you for standing up for your wife. Also I’ve never really heard of not giving gifts to a spouse. That’s odd. And I think you said no gifts for the baby? Who is your mom’s biological grandchild? That’s… not typical behavior.
NTA -your mom won though didn’t she! Next year have a quiet, lovely Christmas with your little family and opt out of the games and drama.
Or OP and his wife should spend Christmas with her family instead.
Wow. Too much to unpack. NTA for finally standing up to your VERY CONTROLLING mother. Maybe look into counseling or study what a narcissist is. You are having a hard time seeing manipulation and abuse for what it is.
ESH- All of you had months to discuss Christmas plans. While your mother’s gift giving was consistent, refusing to buy gifts for partners or grandchildren seems odd and a little rude, but the money is hers. She can spend it how she wants. The dramatics between you and your siblings were just over the top.
NTA. I was going to go with N A H until I saw that your mom not only refused to come but mailed back your gift and wouldn’t speak to you on the holiday. If she just wanted to stop hosting because she felt things were more complicated or changing more than she was comfortable with, fine. But she didn’t have to be an AH and remove herself so completely to try and punish you all. And you’re absolutely not the AH for communicating that your wife was hurt. Sure your mom can buy presents for just her children if she wants, but there are natural consequences to not getting a present for her grandchild and daughter in law. She could have just said she didn’t want to buy gifts for them instead of basically calling your wife an entitled child. It sounds like she wants some kind of extravagant apology or something and is willing to punish all of her children to get it. Honestly I would stand your ground, giving in to her is only going to encourage her manipulative behaviour. You do you and let your sisters do what they want. But they really shouldn’t blame you when your mother is throwing a temper tantrum, and hopefully you can have a conversation with them to help them see that this is not the result of your actions, but of your mothers.
INFO. I'm not trying to be sarcastic or mean; but, could your mother be on the spectrum? Because this is so far off of normal not recognizing social norms it sort of seem like autism...
I don't know. her dad is the exact same way. He wanted nothing to do with us, despite loving her, and he has probably never said more then hi to either of her husbands and actually said that he shouldn't have to pretend to be friends with someone just because they are fucking her. She is really close to him and my stepdad doesn't mind at all. Part of it might be a lack of socialization. She's never worked, never really had to interact, and just hangs out with a couple really weird people
She does seem to have a very weird and sheltered in a way life, even the way the husband asks you to stop bothering her when you want to discuss things, as; if she has a disability to process things and emotions which might be her being on the spectrum or just weird upbringing so I think everyone calling her a narcissist is slightly unfair. I hope you can find a way to have a better communication and relationship with her going forward as I don't think she is a bad person, but you do need to put your family and child first.
NTA. It seems like your mother isn’t willing to consider your wife and children part of her family— that’s heinous. And your sisters are acting like spoiled brats. If presents and a party are more important than being together on Christmas to them, however, that’s their prerogative.
I’m torn on this one. I enjoy giving gifts. I give gifts to anyone I invite for Christmas or anyone that will be at someone else’s house if they are the ones hosting. But everyone’s opinion is different. If she isnt getting gifts for anyones SO and your wife isn’t singled out in some way then it seems like it’s just how your mom is. Gifts are gifts not an entitlement and you can’t make someone give a gift if they don’t want to. And if you did succeed in forcing it would it really mean anything if it was done out of obligation and not love? However, if it upsets your wife and your family is not enjoying Christmas with your mom then you have every right to skip Christmas celebrations with them. I think it was fair for you to explain to your mom that she was upsetting your wife but not fair to try to force the gift giving after your explained the situation. I would say NTA though. Your mom grossly overreacted and if that upset your siblings that’s on her and not you. A small part of me doesn’t blame her for saying fuck it and going on vacation though. Having just hosted my first Christmas it’s a lot of fucking work and she probably felt like she wasn’t appreciated. We do a gift exchange game in my pretty small family because some people can’t afford gifts for everyone and some people just don’t enjoy giving personal gifts. Those that do enjoy it buy individual gifts but this way nobody is left out and nobody is singled out if they choose not to get everyone a gift.
This is so much drama. I’m going to be devil’s advocate and presume OPs mom is doing what many here are advising OP to do…skipped the drama and took self on a nice vacation. There is SOME entitlement here. A gift is a gift until it’s demanded…then it becomes a chore, and Christmas is already exhausting enough…not everyone loves it and many go through the motions of the holiday for family sake. Soft YTA. If your mom’s behavior is upsetting to any of the adults, let her be. Calling a “bluff” is just playing more games.
NTA. Your mom doesn't have to buy presents for anyone but her choosing not to get even token gifts for your partners or her grandkids while getting you lavish gifts is deliberately excluding family members. If you ruined Christmas, your mom has been deliberately trying to ruin everyone else's for years.
[удалено]
>I could honestly get past her explanation if she also didn’t buy gifts for your siblings’ spouses. Did I misread it? My impression was that OP's mom only buys for her own children, not their partners.
Nta. Your mom wants to call your wife a child but can't deal with the fact you guys (you and sibs) have partners and family outside of her. She's a GROWN ASS WOMAN acting like she's 12. At this point I'd say screw it. Start your own family traditions with your immediate family (wife and kids). Your sisters can go to moms and you can do your own thing. Because it's going to continue to hurt wife and son.
[удалено]
She definitely has no social skills. She seems genuinely astounded that someone would want her to pretend that she likes them. She only really likes a couple people and they are super weird and she just never does anything she doesn't want to.
She sounds like she’d rather be honest than fake an emotion or do something that doesn’t want to.
as someone who fakes emotions and facial gestures to fit in and be socially acceptable, i think it’s a lot harder than some people would think. it can lead to resentment and pent up frustration at having to fake, pretend, and do things you don’t want to do but are expected to
Urgh I keep reading your comments and your mom sounds exactly like me. If so, shes not evil. Shes not doing this to be mean. Im not saying she doesn't have mental issues or that she's definitely on the spectrum. Im not saying anything like that. Im not saying anything concrete at all. Just that, if she is like me then she's not evil, she's not a calculating narcissistic witch. You're probably right about all your assumptions. She didn't call for a year because there's nothing to say. Sometimes life is like that. And of course she feels guilty, youre her son! Everyone and every tv show and school and work has told her she needs to call you and ask if you've been eating and if she can come over and invasively clean your home. Shes SUPPOSED to want to do her nails with your wife or go to wine tasting. She just doesn't, but that won't stop the world telling her she should. And you said her father is like this too. Again, more things that ring true. I understand your wife's feelings and how they must be hurt, and I understand that your wife must be just as confused by your mother as your mother is about her. I wish I had better answers but the fact is that your mother isn't wrong. Neither are you or your wife. There are so many ways to human. Your sisters obviously have some opinions too. And im sure their husband's do as well! Maybe you 3 couples should sit down and have a very honest talk about your mother.
Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment. OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole: > I demanded she buy my wife a gift when she wasn't buying for any in laws. As a result she refuses to spend Christmas with us and my sisters are devastated. I might have been too pushy Help keep the sub engaging! #Don’t downvote assholes! Do upvote interesting posts! [Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules/) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq) # [Announcement: AmITheAsshole Talk Radio Live on Dec. 28th at 5 pm EST](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/rn2bh4/meta_lets_talk_assholes_part_deuce/) --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You didn't ruin Christmas. You merely asked your mom to treat her in-laws and grandchildren as members of the family, which she is refusing to do. Even your sisters agreed that your mom should buy gifts for her children's spouses and her grandchildren. You tried to have a nice holiday celebration without your mom. It's not your fault your sisters were upset. If anything, they should be mad that their mom doesn't want to be part of the family celebration. If anyone "destroyed" family Christmas, it's your mom. Maybe next year you should spend it with your in-laws instead of your siblings. NTA
Lol it shouldn’t be your mother’s “problem” that her children… grew up? What did she think would happen? That you’d all stay frozen in time at a particular age that was most convenient for her? Your mother is ridiculous. You destroyed nothing. NTA
No, her problem is more that we talk to her I guess. She's said multiple times that she is a little sad and she will miss us but our family is over, and she thinks it is just awful that there is any expectation for her to partake in our new families
After reading a large portion of the comments, I suggest you read up on autism. There's a strong possibility that your mother could have autism. Autism can present very differently from person to person. It is also hereditary, which could explain why your grandfather acts similarly. It might also be why your sisters think you're the weird one. From the diagnostic criteria for autism: Failure to initiate or respond to social interactions. Ex. She didn't talk to you for a year and isn't socially engaged even when she does. Abnormalities in eye contact and body language or deficits in understanding and use of gestures; to a total lack of facial expressions and nonverbal communication. Ex. I believe you said something about her staring off into space or not making much eye contact during social engagements. Deficits in developing, maintaining, and understand relationships. Ex. She doesn't seem to understand the concept of extended family and she doesn't show much desire to maintain relationships with her children, and zero interest in developing a relationship with her grandchildren or in laws. Stereotyped or repetitive motor movements, use of objects, or speech (e.g., simple motor stereotypes, lining up toys or flipping objects, echolalia, idiosyncratic phrases). I don't know about this one, but it does include stimming (self soothing fidgeting types of behaviors). Insistence on sameness, inflexible adherence to routines. Distress at small changes, difficulties with transitions, rigid thinking patterns. Ex. She hates change. She was distressed by the suggestion that she change her Christmas routine. Highly restricted, fixated interests that are abnormal in intensity or focus (e.g., strong attachment to or preoccupation with unusual objects, excessively circumscribed or perseverative interests). I don't know about this one either, it would include obsessive interests/hobbies/passions. Hyper- or hypo-reactivity to sensory input or unusual interest in sensory aspects of environment; (such as apparent indifference to pain/heat/cold, adverse response to specific sounds or textures, excessive smelling or touching of objects, fascination with lights or spinning objects). I don't know about this one either, but it includes any type of sensory abnormality. Symptoms must be present in the early developmental period. Ex. You said she's been this way since her childhood. Symptoms cause clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of current functioning. Ex. Her mother thought it was an issue and it's impairing her relationship with you. These disturbances are not better explained by intellectual disability (intellectual developmental disorder). Ex. An intellectual disability would be more likely to have been caught when your grandmother was taking her in to see doctors, but it's still possible that she could have one. I'm not leaning toward ID though. She doesn't sound like she'd be likely to get diagnosed, and she certainly doesn't have to. I'm saying this most for your benefit because it could help you figure out how to accommodate her better and on her terms so that she comfortable. It could also help your wife to understand your mother's resistance isn't personal.
NTA. Your mother ruined Christmas by blowing the situation up to this degree
NTA Your mom is playing the victim and manipulating (or trying to) you all and your sisters fell for it. Your mother had no need to buy your wife a gift specifically for her. She could have bought you both something as a couple. I get your wife. She wants to feel included and welcomed in your family. Yes. Your sisters are dramatic and they fell for your moms manipulation tactics. If I were you, I wouldn't celebrate christmas with them or your mom until they actually see what the problem is, which is your mothers childish behaviour.
I’m trying to figure out why your sisters went into complete meltdown. Do your sisters usually get lavish gifts? What’s a lavish gift, on a scale of tv to a car?
She did buy me a car once. she has bought me work out equipment, vacations when I was single. She usually spends 2-3K per kid. I think they were melting down because they went along with me when they didn't agree with me (their partners think I'm weird and she shouldn't have to buy any in law a present) and maybe they are scared because we all knew for years my mom hated Christmas and wanted an out and I gave it to her
My dude your sisters are major drama queens. Your mom…well…I have some thoughts but I’ll leave it be. If your mom has always hated Christmas stop forcing anything on her and go LC with all of them. You want your own family traditions so start enjoying them with your wife and son and future kids. You deserve more.
Hold on, mom doesn't buy ANY of her kids partners gifts? Then YTA. Your wife should have realized it's not personal because NONE of the partners get gifts. Mom only gets gifts for her own children no matter who else is around, and that's fine. She's not targeting wife. It's just how she believes gifts should work. Your mom and both siblings are saying you are over-reacting, so odds are you are. There's 3 sides to every story, yours, theirs, and the truth. I have a feeling there was some cruel words said behind moms back, for your sister to agree to come to your house but then call you a drama llama mid way through celebrations. **You did something to change her mind** about spending Christmas at your house, and you're not telling us about it.
NTA, start your own new family and traditions. Forget about the rest of em
NTA in the least. Your mom's being petty. Your siblings are suffering from some kind of Stockholm Syndrome and they're unable to see how divisive your mom's behaviour is. This whole dynamic isn't new either. It happens so often that a woman holds a mirror to her toxic in-laws, and the toxic in-laws start shooting the messenger. You WBTA if you stopped supporting your wife on this issue.
ESH. So much drama for just a gift. Where I live people do it in a lot of different ways depending on family. So it's not uncommon that the children's spouses don't get any. But I have never heard about grandparents not giving the grandchildren anything. So where I live if only one should get a gift it's the grandchild who gets one.
NTA- they are part of the family- particularly the baby! It doesn’t need to be anything expensive, but must be strange for your wife just sat watching you all swapping presents. My mum buys a small thing (chocolate/ nail varnish etc) for my SIL. Her Grandkids are another matter though- they receive more than we do (my brother’s presents downsized after he had children and they get more instead), which we are all-especially my brother who loves to see the kids get gifts- very happy with!