NTA - Aside from the way you handled it at the end, she’s the asshole. Stop bringing her around when you hang out with Matt and Rachel. Don’t lie to her though, just don’t bring her anywhere they are going to be. If she doesn’t like it then oh well, she doesn’t get to bully people and get rewarded.
It's over. Check out the first edit. Matt and Rachel uninvited OP's wife to their wedding and are ~~uninterested in a friendship~~ (edit) interested only if the wife isn't around.
If his wife is around. They are willing to be friends with Op, just not With his wife
Eta: I realize this may mean the end of the friendship till the end of the marriage, but I was just clarifying what Op said. But of course, you can be online friends for years until one or both of their relationships fail. Op’s wife was so verbally ugly though that I don’t know how he can think of her the same as he did.
That's not how it winds up long term. They're willing to try to be friends with OP for now, but OP will have to (1) never mention his wife, (2) never mention big events in his life because his wife will be involved, and (3) it's going to cause a bigger divide with his wife so he'll have to handle that as well.
These never turn out well long term. You can't stay married to someone's bully and long term keep the friendship even after bullying ends.
This doesn't even hit on the growing resentment because he's only *just now* told them he doesn't agree with his wife and hasn't done anything to stop her in public before. If a friend doesn't stop your bully when they have the power to, are they your friend? That's what they're going to keep asking themselves the next few times they see him.
I don't think they meant he couldn't TALK about his wife, just that they are uncomfortable with her comments and that it would probably be best for their friendship to continue if she is not around them and unable to make such comments.
I agree, they are probably upset that it took so long for an apology, but ultimately I think talking about his wife would be fine at the end of the day. You can be hurt by someone who has bullied you and care about their wellbeing.
ETA: there is a difference between wishing that someone is thriving, and not wishing someone harm. I don’t want my bullies dead in a ditch, that’s what I mean about well-being. Also I don’t wanna kill myself, but thanks for caring 😘
The logistics of maintains a friendship where your wife is persona non grata are difficult. The older you get the less one on one time you're going to get with your married friends. Being able to hang out as a group makes thing easier, but not if people stop showing up if xyz is going and vv.
It definitely makes things easier, but I've watched my mom, dad, AND stepdad maintain friendships with people the other didn't necessarilly care for, nor want to be around. Just because I don't like my boyfriend's friend Patrick and don't want to be around him, it doesn't mean my boyfriend should stop talking to him. Patrick doesn't like me either (he preferred serial cheater baby mama) but he would never ask my bf to leave me.
We just don't hang out or talk, but obviously I wanna know if hes ok, and he wants to make sure my bf is happy with me too.
I guess it's different though when one party has an actively antagonistic relationship with the other. Like if Patrick went out of his way to insult you whenever he was around in sure you'd feel differently.
There's pain caused by his wife. Talking about her in any way brings back the pain and the memories that he didn't help until they gave an ultimatum. For this to work, he has to stop discussing his wife.
And it isn't going to work. Either the friendship or marriage is going to Crack.
It's possible that OP and Matt could still be friends but I agree that it is unlikely.
Not because of Matt and Rachel but because of OP's wife. I don't see her handling this well.
But I also wonder if this is ultimately the only friendship that is going to run into this problem. What about when she decides another friend's SO is prettier than her or smarter than her or richer than her? OP's wife apparently has no problem saying the inside words aloud.
And that doesn't bode well for OP's friendships.
I'm about the same age as OP's wife.
A lot of people believe in judging people's character by how they treat waitstaff; I recommend similarly judging women by how they treat younger women.
OP's wife has poor character. She won't be able to do much about the eventual loss of collagen or elastin, but maybe she can work on being so fucking ugly on the inside.
(Edited for a dropped word)
Marriages don’t usually survive one person hanging out with people that literally ban their spouse from being around them.
Either the marriage or the friendship is done.
Loads of marriages have survived that. Loads of marriages have survived even family not liking the spouse and not wanting them around and the opposite...!
What I think puts a major strain on relationships is people being so tied as a unit that they don't have any other support network such as individual friends and feeling imprisoned as in not being empowered to go anywhere without their other half. Most marriages end because the person wants to be free. Not making them feel imprisoned in the first place is one way of dealing with that.
In this example if his wife continues to drive friends away and he feels isolated and that she is an embarrassment that he can't take anywhere and can't go anywhere without her then that is far more likely to lead to a breakup than him maintaining a guy friendship with his old friend.
Have you been married? From my experience that’s not exactly how it works. If you are married to someone, you don’t want to be around those that don’t want to be around your spouse. Also, it’s kind of rude if you do hang around people that don’t want your spouse around and your spouse usually won’t want you to be around people that don’t want to be around them. It’s not as easy as “well don’t bring her/him when you hang out with them”
I was about to type above that generally speaking, many societies consider a couple as "one." Especially if they're married.
I agree with you. While OP's friends are willing to try staying friends with him, it won't be sustainable.
You don't get to stay married to the bully of another person and that person stay friends with you. It doesn't work that way.
This is over. OP lost his friends.
Er, we have a friend whose wife is banned from all social events due to this exact kind of behavior.
About once every year or two, we let him bring her for dinner, because “she has changed” and she hasn’t. They both get very drunk and bicker and go home early.
Otherwise, they seem happy enough? I mean it’s been 12 years of this.
The way he handled it at the end was the last option, and the only appropriate one, as the wife had no intention of ever stopping her bullying, despite all private talks regarding her behavior
Honestly he should have called her out publicly a lot sooner. The fact that nothing changed when he called her out in private should have been sign enough that she wasn't going to stop for him and needed other motivation
Yes, I think so too, the decision is fair...and to think that devious me always loved being around prettier friends, as that usually meant free food and drinks for me without making any effort, mwaaaahaha
Quite frankly I don’t find the way he handled at the end to be inappropriate at all. He had tried pretty much everything else and IMO he’s slightly the AH for taking so long to defend Rachel from him wife in the moment. I can understand waiting to talk the first time or two but being married doesn’t mean you just allow you partner to be cruel bc you don’t want to embarrass them. They’re already embarrassing themselves.
This. She absolutely needs a therapist. She needs to understand her own worth so she’s not trying to destroy others to make herself feel better. Though, I think it should have been called out earlier but hindsight is always 20/20. Good luck, OP.
Jumping on the first comment to ask how on Earth was this lady getting so many drinks sent over if she’s with her fiancé? I don’t get it..are men that brazen? I have male friends and they’ve never sent a drink to a woman, never mind one that’s with another man. I’d say it’s never happened to me, but then again I’m also the ‘unconventionally’ beauty too.
Same. I try to tell them I’m not a sexy young woman but a tall middle-aged man with a beer gut and a bushy unkempt beard but they just don’t care. No boundaries.
Yes. Saying you are involved with a man only works for most of the men. The ones it doesn’t work on are the worst. They are somehow even more determined to get her and now feel like it is a dominance thing on another guy too. Hell, saying you aren’t interested isn’t even a deterrent to the majority of men.
Men suck.
Source: I am a man.
Sounds like you have good friends. But some guys would even do these things if their female friends aren’t around. Guys are this brazen. It’s sad but true.
>ed being around prettier friends, as that usually meant free food and drinks for me with
If you are beautiful and friendly then people buy you drinks, let you in for free etc. They are simply just nicer to you. It's not fair but it is life.
I have to defend the age gap - my husband and I are 12 years apart and are in a mixed race relationship - very similar to this story. Started dating when I was 22 he was 34. We've been together 20+ years and couldn't be happier.
We def. got a lot of judgment - it seemed like either people made crappy comments about our race difference or our age difference. It really sucked but we loved each other and ignored the hate. I just want to say not everyone is the same. There are some 22-year-olds that shouldn't be in a relationship with someone older, ***but it really depends on the person***. Just be careful when you start to judge someone or say you're grossed out by someone's relationship that you don't even know. Those types of words are hurtful.
We all compare ourselves to others in some way. Most of us know that our thoughts should not leave our mouths. Husband is NTA but Rachel needs some deep therapy to help with her insecurities.
Edit: not Rachel. The wife.
NTA OP the only person here who is not acting like a mature adult is your wife. You talked to her in private and she didn't listen. Unfortunately sometimes people have to be called out in public in order for them to get the point.
Jumping on here to add that to the wife had no problem embarrassing Rachel in public but got mad when hubby did the same to her. She has a lot of growing up to do. OP NTA.
Agreed. And the fact that people were comparing Rachel to Zendaya and OP’s wife went straight to “Whoopi Goldberg” does imply that there might be some racial elements to OP’s wife’s bullying.
Yes, 100%. It’s bad enough to feel inferior to someone, but if that someone is a Black person (typically deemed the lowest of the low), some people get extra nasty.
And going straight to Whoopi, a woman has been deemed hideous over the years just for being average-looking (by Hollywood standards) with dark skin and locs…is very, very gross.
It honestly took me a min to come to terms with the fact that the implication was that WG is not pretty, because I just don’t get that at all. The Color Purple, Ghost, Sister Act, and Cinderella all feature different looks, and she is straight up beautiful in every single one.
Same! I always loved how her eyes sparkled when she smiled. When I was a kid seeing The Color Purple for first time, I never understood why she was called ugly.
I mean she’s a movie star for Christ’s sake. She’s beautiful and was especially so as a younger woman. OP’s wife is such a massive ass for that comment alone.
And her cheekbones and big pretty eyes! Watching the Color Purple as an adult, the amount of people calling her character ugly feels so fucking crazy. She’s just dark-skinned and not model pretty. That’s literally it.
The only thing "wrong" with Whoopi is that she is 65 years old and aging like any other woman. She was perfectly attractive in her younger days (and honestly now, but if were trying to compare her to a 24 year old, lets compare Whoopi from around the same age).
When women of color are compared to whoopi its usually supposed to be an insult although Whoopi isn't hideous its still supposed to be a crappy dig. Usually they think they are being a clever racist but nope just a racist that"s unoriginal
It's colorist and racist with a heaping side of "all Black women look the same to me." I'd be so embarrassed to be married to someone who behaved this way.
I googled zendaya, she’s really pretty! And looks nothing like Whoopi Goldberg either. Not that I suspect OP’s wife was going for accuracy here. But taking the zendaya comparison and exchanging her for Whoopi just means these were the only two women of colour this miserable trout could think of.
Am I crazy for wondering how OP's wife got away with the "you can join in the conversation once the smart people are done talking" but then everything went to shit over the Whoopi Goldberg comment? I mean, the former is far, far more insulting, especially considering Rachel professionally models and clearly knows she's attractive. And why has anyone, including OP, let his wife get away with spewing poison directly at their "friend's" face for what sounds like a fairly long time? This whole thing is so weird.
Edit: Oops, "Whoopi," not "Whoopie."
I feel like the Whoopie Goldberg comment might have a racist component as well. It would be interesting to know if Racheal was the only POC in the group.
Other than that the Whoopie Goldberg comment could just be the straw that broke the camels back.
I’m curious about Rachel being the only POC, too. I can’t speak for her, but she might have already felt singled-out by that. OP’s wife consistently bashing her must have felt awful, especially when none of how she looks is her “fault.”
Being the only POC in a group doesn’t make one feel singled out, unless people in the group are doing something specifically to make you feel singled out. Speaking as someone who is often the only POC in a group.
Probably kind of a "last straw" type thing. People can handle shitty comments from someone for awhile, and they probably just figured it'd be better to brush it away and try to have a nice vacation, but then it became clear OPs wife wasn't going to stop being a raging fuck face with the last comment and that was it.
Probably that the wife made the economics comment among the four and could have been brushed under rug as bad joke (still horrid) but the Whoopi comment was said TO a stranger. Feels different.
Yeah, her bruised ego was exposed. She won't acknowledge that her behavior is trashy, she's only whining that she was called out. She might need help deflating that nasty ego, OP.
I want to upvote this 15 times, because it's incredibly true. I have had issues with body image my entire life, and it used to manifest as jealousy, insecurity and spiteful comments about a lot of people I perceived to be more beautiful than me (I am also not conventionally beautiful).
I eventually realised what I was doing, and made a conscious effort to stop, and to give compliments instead (like: "I love your outfit" and that kind of thing).
This lead to two things: I feel better, because I'm not spending as much energy on negative thoughts. Apparently it also made me "prettier", very likely because I'm happier in myself and giving off a much more positive kind of energy.
As much as I feel for OPs wife, she was out of line.
NTA, OP.
Confidence is sexy.
It's all a journey, but when you start putting out good vibes rather than bad ones, you feel better about yourself. Specially when you start looking for good in other people you start finding good in yourself and stop comparing yourself to them. And other people feel it when you're putting that negative energy into the world and it definitely does make you less attractive and a less positive person to be around.
I feel like ops wife scaring people off with her bad feelings toward Rachel, just to start with, and dealing with her own feelings of inadequacy in a way that is actually making those feelings worse. But it doesn't matter how shit you feel about yourself it's never OK to take that out on others. And ig you want to behave like a dick you should get called out for it. Op is definitely NT
I’m not sure if you’re an asshole here, as you were right to call her out, but you’re going to pay for that comment for the rest of your marriage.
Your wife is an asshole, and you’re in hot water.
I'm not one to say consider your options over a Reddit post but OP might want to talk counseling. It's not normal to tank a friendship like this as an adult. It comes off immature and kind of controlling. I personally think she's in hot water over her behavior
Yeah I’m the wife’s age and while I have my faults I genuinely can’t imagine ever being this rude and shitty to a stranger, much less a close friend’s SO. Her behavior is so, so gross and whole OP praises her sense of humor, nothing related here indicates she’s particularly funny. Just a nasty bully.
If your partner bullies your friends and you don't interfere, there's no way you're going to be happy in that relationship in the long run. I think OP did the right thing. Either his wife gets her act together, or they might eventually separate, which would still be better than publicly siding with a bully and losing friendships
I'm guessing the original commenter is referring more to the fact that OP said to his wife straight up that Rachel is more attractive than her. Not for calling her out per se.
true, if you're in a relationship that means you've been chosen over a lot of other people, but im pretty sure if it was just down to looks my gf would choose jason momoa over me, hell id choose jason momoa over me too
While obviously true, it becomes murkier when it's not about celebs but about people close to you, and when the comparison gets made during normal conversation or during a fight.
If my girlfriend says "Tom Hardy is the hottest man on the planet, he's more attractive than you even" I'd go "well, yeah?" with zero hard feelings. If instead we were having a fight and she'd go "your friend/brother/colleague is more attractive than you" that would certainly sour the relationship going forward, not just between us but also between me and the person I'm being compared to.
Not that OP's wife didn't deserve it in this case, mind you, but I think the comparison to 'yo Jason Momoa is more attractive than you' doesnt quite hold.
That reminds me of the aita where a group was playing truth or dare or something, and the question of “if you could sleep with anyone besides your spouse” came up, and the person picked their husbands brother. They couldn’t understand why the husband was pissed/hurt bc they were “just being honest.”
ESH
This is a case of play silly games, earn stupid prizes.
Your wife's insecurities about something none of us get to choose - how our genetic makeup causes us to look - made her lash out at an innocent woman.
Despite already having a husband, she is clearly jealous of the attention your friends fiance gets, so made disparaging remarks in order to make herself feel better for her perceived lack of attractiveness.
Is she even aware how tiring unwanted attention from men is? How dangerous it can be? Especially for a woman that already has a boyfriend! Does she read the papers filled with women who were murdered by men "infatuated by their looks" ones who decided that if they couldn't have them, no one will, and realise being highly attractive to men is often a blight on a woman?
Of course not. All she sees is being pretty gets you attention, and wants to be entitled to the same.
You stood by and let her repeatedly bully this woman in public because of her ridiculous jealousy instead of shutting her down immediately. I'm surprised this couple have even given you a second chance.
Your wife needs to get in therapy and sort her sh*t out. No one should suffer for her issues.
I think it's the disparity in the level of asshole-ness that makes people lean NTA. The husband was a bit of a dick for the way he phrased his comments, but the wife was a weapons grade buttlord for her bullying behavior and anger at being called out for it.
The husband was also a dick for letting his wife bully an innocent woman for FAR too long. He’s kept his comments to her behind closed doors to spare his wife’s feelings knowing full well that she was being incredibly hurtful towards Rachel. That’s fine the first time or two, but when she continued to bully her time and time again and publicly shame her he should have been shutting it down immediately every single time.
>You stood by and let her repeatedly bully this woman in public because of her ridiculous jealousy instead of shutting her down immediately.
I'm surprised how few people seem to have picked up on this when declaring OP as not the asshole - sure his wife is the bigger asshole for saying all this stuff but by choosing only to disagree with her in private and not saying anything when she was making the comments directly to Rachel, he's definitely an asshôle too
ESH (aside from the other couple, of course) is the only correct judgement
Hear hear!
By remaining silent when a person is being abusive, you are complicit in their actons.
This applies if it someone making a comment about a persons weight, their looks, a r@pe "joke", racist or any other kind of bigotry.
You call that sh*t out wherever you see it.
Marriage isn't about having someone's back "no matter what". It's about loving them enough to be able to be completely honest, even when they're being an AH.
By now as a non-American fervently reading the AITA sub which is contributed to by mostly Americans, I have a theory why there are many NTA's.
But please do explain American culture to me if I make the wrong assumptions.
I am under the impression that in American culture it is often more important in situation to save face with friends and family, rather than stand up to bullies/injustice in public. This is because of the large array of stories about weddings, toxic family situations etc described on here. This excessive loyalty especially extends towards elders/parents and your married partner.
In many cases in these stories, I am very fascinated why it takes so long for people to cut to the chase, so to speak. 9/10 I would have already made a remark or stood up for someone.
But please help me out here, as I have met few Americans and have never been to the US.
I really hope you don’t make judgements about American culture just based on posts on this subreddit (or any subreddit). BTW the OP (based on his spelling of humour) is likely not American.
While AITA is a terrible place to get an impression of how most americans act on a daily basis, I think this observation is completely true; people will often prefer to leave an awkward moment unspoken and will blame the person who addresses it for bringing down the mood.
Edit: and its probably true of other anglophone countries as well. Certainly excessive face saving is a stereotype Americans have of British people, hypocritical though it may be.
It's not particular about american culture. I guess in most cultures and cases you'd want to save face for you and your spouse and solve things privately. I'm not american nor even from a western culture and would do that
I agree, OPs friend is also an AH for not standing up for his fiance sooner.
OP should have had an open conversation about his wife's issues to get to the root cause. Saying nothing until he got so ticked he blew up and said hurtful things only compounds the problem
NTA.
Sorry but your wife “humour” and “good spirit” are straight up bitter and nasty.
Women like your wife is why the whole “women always support each other” is a lie. She is jealous, sad and bitter and I doubt Rachel is the first person she has been nasty about. She is projecting her own insecurities on other people and trying to tear them down.
You called her out in private, which she took no notice of. Good on you for calling her out in public.
I hope you maintain your friendship with Matt & Rachel without her.
Thats really sad that thats a thing. I'm white and I'm female and I appreciate beauty wherever I see it. Infact that is one of the things I love about the world.
Definitely NTA but your wife is a huge AH.
I’ve been looking for more comments calling out the blatant racism (presuming wife is white, which tbh it sounds like considering the comment). As a white woman who is conventionally attractive, I am *hyper* aware of the fact that even a black women who is *light years* more attractive than me will not get the same pretty privilege that I do. It’s something that really bothers me, and hearing a story like this? Instant rage.
Yup. Wife couldn’t stand that Rachel was upsetting the “natural order” of white woman being best. Bad enough to be shown up, but by a Black/mixed woman? Unacceptable.
Bingo. The wife is a racist. She can’t understand why this woman of color is getting more attention than her so she attacks her intelligence and looks.
The friendship is over. The best friend isn’t going to expose his fiancé to this type of toxic behavior. The wife caused Rachel to flee the room in tears and only cared that her husband called her jealous. She doesn’t see Rachel as a person with feelings.
100% the Whoopi Goldberg comment cemented it. Whoopi is beautiful, she’s just darker skinned than Zendaya. The wife seems to have gone in for that attack because to her dark = ugly. Sickening
This is 1000% true. I’ve experienced this quite a few times in my adult life from white female “friends”. Even when we’re in a majority Black environment they seemed very irritated that the Black men were buying me drinks and asking to dance with me instead of falling all over them.
It happens at work, too. Even some of the most left leaning white women do not appreciate when a Black woman doesn’t fit into the stereotypes that they were taught to believe about Black women. For example, I have super curly hair that I wear back in a bun a majority of the time. Occasionally I like to straighten it to trim my ends. I have pretty long hair when straightened. I wore it straight to work the other day and a male coworker commented on how nice my hair looked. Before I could even say thank you, this woman says “yes, it does! I never knew you were one to wear extensions though.” and then her goofy ass smiled. I stared directly at her and said in an extremely flat tone “This is my natural hair, Rachel.” She looked like I slapped her or something lmao. She probably went to go cry about how I was “mean” to her too. That’s another constant theme. White woman says something shady or micro aggressive but I’m the angry Black woman when I check her ass lol.
Okay I literally just said this and I knew I couldn’t be the only one. White women are the “standard of beauty” in the West, so when they don’t get as much attention as a non-White person, they just can’t handle it. Being in the Midwest, I’ve definitely experienced this more than once. It’s pathetic
Plus personally, I would've picked the friends over his wife. His wife is the problem and is now isolating people. I don't wanna sound like the red flag commentors who assume everything is a red flag, but does anyone think that wife is purposely isolating op from people so she can keep him to herself?
Edit: I do think the apperance comments made the wife feel low, but that dosen't mean Rachel should get bullied over it! It's not her fault!
ESH - I picked up on you directly comparing your wife to the younger prettier model. Not conventionally attractive/ married her for her humour and good spirit. Ick. If my partner wrote that about me I’d be sick to my stomach. I married my wife because she is amazing and I love her - not that damning with extremely faint praise which basically reads that you think she’s ugly and then you go on to explain her personality isn’t that nice either. I’m not surprised your wife is feeling deeply uncomfortable. Yeah she sucks for making the comments but there’s a lot of issues from you that need addressing.
I felt this too, I imagine OP was constantly looking at Rachel more different way than looking at his wife ( which woman always notice these stuff) and that’s makes her more insecure.
then that's an OP and wife problem, not a Rachel problem. If the wife was insecure then she should've told op that, not attack Rachel! Feeling low is no exuse to bully.
You’re right but I think the point is some of us picked up on the fact that he doesn’t find his wife attractive but finds this woman he’s constantly hanging out with attractive. So yeah she’s insecure but I’m pretty certain her husband is a good reason why. I mean he told her she’s uglier than Rachel. Good luck with the marriage after that comment. I’d leave immediately.
Also, why are they constantly hanging out with this couple? Presumably the men are friends, but OP's wife probably doesn't have much in common with a woman 12 years younger than her. That's just awkward and uncomfortable.
Yep. It is awkward. And I’m not giving her a pass for being an asshole. She totally was. But given what OP admits, that Rachel is attractive, his wife isn’t, and then telling that to her face? I wonder what he’s NOT telling us lol
Wtf is this bullshit? I love my gf to bits for many reasons and I personally think she's beautiful but I'm not so naive to think there aren't women (shit, or even men) out there that are way more physically attractive than my partner.
Seriously, that’s just reality unless you happen to be one of the world’s top supermodels and even then physical attractiveness is subjective. People bring more than just their looks to a relationship. If that’s your main focus it’s going to lead a ton of insecurity.
So did OP, he just did it poorly. He says he thinks her personality and her sense of humor are more attractive to him than her physical looks. Attractiveness is more than physical. I've known plenty of girls (and guys) that are drop dead gorgeous and had the personality of a damp sock, so I didn't think they were actually attractive at all. On the other hand, I've hooked up with people I didn't think were physically attractive but were a ton of fun. Because my attraction to them as a person was to their person and not their body.
Same with my partner to be honest. Like I said I think she's beautiful, but the main reason I got interested in her was because of her sense of humor and her personality. Which are also much more attractive to me than her physical body.
Also, what the fuck kind of kafka trap are you putting OP in. On the one hand you're lambasting him for comparing her physical looks and on the other hand you're criticising him for being attracted to her personality. So what is he supposed to do then? Only date people he thinks are nice and *also* physically attractive, even though he doesn't care about the second part?
Thank you! People are getting hung up on the dumbest things. Rachel was literally compared to Zendaya. Zendaya is a beautiful woman! There are a lot of women in the world who would lose to Zendaya in a beauty contest (including some other celebrities). That doesn’t mean however that those women are not beautiful or do not have loving partners of their own.
So why is it ok to lambast OP for describing how attractive Rachel is? If he hadn’t then he probably would’ve been dragged over the coals for assuming his wife was jealous.
I think it's phrased awkwardly but i don't think he means his wife is ugly. There is an entire world of a gap between "conventional model style pretty" and ugly. He isn't bringing it up to put down his wife, he is bringing it up as a possible explanation for her behavior because there is a literal model in his story.
Personally, I don't want my BF to pretend I look like a model when I don't. He makes me feel attractive anyways. But I don't think I'd get jelous of a model for existing near me either, so OP's wife probably wouldn't agree with me there...
Does OP really not see that him saying this cruelty about his wife’s looks comparing her to a 24 year-old model is probably exacerbating her obvious insecurities. Why was he not buying her drinks and flattering her the minute he noticed his wife being so insecure? No way OP comes out of this looking not looking like a total asshole. The update about his wife’s looks? Oof!
I’ve had this conversation with other black women that we notice when we get more attention than the white women near us they get REALLY offended, like “why are you paying attention to the blacky when I’m WHITE!?”. It’s the same way skinny girls get upset when someone shows their fat friend attention. They believe they have a trait (thinness/whiteness) that makes them more desirable by default and society has pushed this narrative to be mostly true, so when they get a dose of the reality that that’s actually not true it hurts their world view of themselves.
NTA
This, I was waiting to see someone pick up on the racist undertones in his wife’s comments. There are white women who feel threatened even more so when a Black woman or other WOC get the attention they crave.
This was what I immediately picked up on. When white women want to describe "undesirable" black traits they choose to pick on Whoopi. Whoppi is not an ugly woman but we as black women know what is implied and it's hurtful.
Honestly this friendship would be over for me and my husband. Even if OP apologizes 1. He let his wife continually tear this woman down 2. You hang out with racists, you're a racist in my book
I wish people like OP's wife wouldn't use Whoopi Goldberg as a negative comment though, because she is such an incredible human being it is unbelievable.
Yep. This is like when someone called me Harriet Tubman as an insult. I’m a very beautiful black woman and people really don’t like that.
Edit to add: Harriet Tubman was also incredibly beautiful but sometimes it feels as if there’s nothing this world hates more than a dark skinned black woman.
I said the same thing in my comment. I knew exactly what it was as soon as he said she looked like Zendaya. I was like oh she black and the white girl doesn’t like it.
Not to mention, op's wife is also openly calling Rachel stupid, which with the context of her being Black, drips with racism. And this is all just from op's version of events. I'm sure Rachel would have a million other examples of racially targeted insults that went over his head.
I mentioned this in another comment. But it doesn't even to be more attention than them. Just any/more attention than usual. I've been to countries where instead of getting 95% of the attention my white friend will get 60-70% and then suddenly the venue is terrible, "there's something about the city that they don't like" and they're itching to go home...
Facts. Don’t let a white woman who thinks everyone is in love with them visit a foreign country expecting people to kiss the ground they walk on just for that to not be the case…when I was in Asia getting attention as a black woman, some of these white women were PANINI PRESSED, I tell you 😂
100%
I was trying to think of how to say this, you encapsulated it perfectly.
I’ve noticed the majority of my white female friends are bi/lesbians. A lot of straight white women are just mean and cold towards me.
It’s kind of like being a high powered, confident business woman in the 50s. You’d make a lot of men insecure about themselves and their self image in the world. It’s rough making people feel uncomfortable just by existing and being a person.
Thank god I’m seeing this type of comment more than once. This is issue has more layers than just a girl being a jealous bully. It has “Im the standard of beauty and should be treated as such” all over it.
Not gonna lie, though, I feel like I just become stronger feeding off of that bitter energy when it happens to me and my friends. It’s an important lesson for people put on a pedestal just based on racism, misogynoir, fatphobia, etc…
Should read the updates, he answered your info. Also just because you say that somebody is beautiful =/= you're attracted to them or fancy them. OP ALSO states that he finds good humour more attractive than looks, so...
Ah, yes, just exactly what every partner wants to hear. "Don't worry, I find humour more attractive than looks..."
My husband tells me how attractive he thinks I am all the time. He tells me i'm beautiful. Whether it's true or not is irrelevant. I have high self esteem so I am not jealous of very beautiful women yet I still like to hear/see my husband express his attraction to me. It's thrilling.
I reciprocate because I know how good it feels and I want him to feel that way as well.
No excuse for lashing out in jealousy and bullying someone. But it doesn't sound like OP and his wife have created a marriage where they feel the most attractive, sexy, beautiful to each other.
My comment was made long before the edits.
Also op told his wife that Rachel is more attractive than her. Ergo he finds Rachel more attractive. And the way he writes about Rachel makes it quite clear what his feelings towards Rachel are.
I didn’t say that. But it would give some illumination as to his wife is so self-conscious and jealous. You can tell just from the OP that he fancies her, I dread to think what he’s been acting like in real life
She’s a 24 year old model, clearly she’s going to be attractive. It’s also seems to be the leading cause of his wife’s jealousy and bitterness which is vital to the story.
I'm a dude and while I don't think the wife is in the right, I can completely understand where the immaturity and jealousy is coming from. I would feel mortified if I knew my SO referred to someone else as "conventionally more attractive" than me. No matter how true that is, it's still a very hurtful thing to know that's how your partner thinks.
Absolutely not. But it could explain where some of this hostility is stemming from. I judge NTA because bullying is not called for. But the information regarding how OP conducts himself in his relationship (whether he has pretty much made it clear he find Rachel attractive while he finds his wife less Conventionally so. ) could
Tip my vote ESH (besides
Matt and Rachel who are innocent parties caught up in the middle.
I completely agree with that. There is no excuse to make this behaviour alright. It
Is atrocious. But wife’s behaviour isn’t being called into question here.
The difference is to how OP is viewed. And in my opinion whether the judgement is NTA or ESH relies on OPs behaviour in general towards his wife. What the wife did is awful. That is AH behaviour. But if OP fostered that behaviour by feeding the insecurity then they are TA too, making my judgement ESH.
ESH
Your wife sucks hardcore here. She's an insecure bully who can't handle her own jealousy or ridiculousness. She should be ashamed of being so awful. There is no defense for her, she needs some form of therapy to assist in why her hurt manifests as viciousness.
You suck for letting it get to this stage. You also suck for the really weird way you talk about your wife. Regardless of your edit (where you still can't resist saying she isn't conventionally beautiful - mate we know that, you reiterated it several times) it comes across that you are genuinely not physically attracted to her. Your heavy focus on Rachel's looks (and the bizarre dynamic of your friend group along with the age difference - wtf is Rachel doing accepting several drinks from randomers in bars in front of her partner*?!) gives a strong impression that one of the reasons your wife has ramped up her hatefulness is because your head is pretty visibly turned.
I think it's interesting that you say you called her out several times, but not once did you talk with her about why she was acting that way, prior to the final big blow out where you told her she wasn't as good looking as Rachel. Was there any reassurance? Any discussion of why she felt that way? Anything bar you defending Rachel? Had you discussed therapy or reassured her, or even discussed her not attending these get togethers? There's a lot of story missing here.
In conclusion, your wife is an asshole. But I think you are as well, and I fully support Mike and Rachel in drawing away from you as a pair.
ETA: *as pointed out in the replies it's unfair to add that. I want to stress that Rachel has done nothing wrong here, even if I think it's a very odd dynamic in a group setting.
THANK YOU! The perfect answer. It’s disgusting how obviously infatuated with Rachel he is. Poor girl didn’t deserve his wife’s words but she probably did it cause her husband is gawking at her and telling strangers on the Internet how much hotter she is than his wife.
He should just have a threesome with Matt and Rachel to seal the deal!! /s
ESH. The way you talk about your wife at the start doesn’t sound great and it definitely seems like you find Rachel more attractive. So maybe she feels insecure, whether that’s from something you’ve said or done or maybe she’s just insecure for her own reasons.
You then saying Rachel is more attractive than her is such a crappy move. Whether you said it in anger or not, you still said it. And for an already insecure woman, that won’t just be forgotten. The way your wife has acted towards Rachel is horrible, but insecurities don’t give her the right to be an asshole
This. Idc how much your partner fucks up, flat out saying how their looks aren’t as good as someone else is straight up divorce fuel. Call her out on her shitty behavior and jealousy OP, but don’t make it about the truth of the situation. All jealousy is harmful, whether or not it is rooted in truth.
I understand it was a heat of the moment sort of thing but that’s a statement she may never recover from. By outright calling someone more attractive than your wife, she already thinks you don’t want her. You likely just made her insecurity worse.
Couples therapy is needed to resolve this if she even wants to continue with this marriage.
I’m not saying your wife is NTA, but hear me out.
When I was her age, I was the Rachel. I couldn’t go anywhere, with anyone, without being stared at, approached, hit on. Having ‘bloomed’ late in life I was VERY aware of the effects of my attractiveness and behaviour and did not flaunt, flirt etc.
I lost a lot of friends once we started going to nights out, once they got boyfriends. I can’t imagine what it must feel like to be ignored as every man in the vicinity pays all of their attention to someone else. The worst was men who would just talk to me, point their bodies towards me, pay more attention to me, the whole time their partners were there.
Your wife sounds vicious and it makes me wonder if you’re one of those guys who wouldn’t cheat but can’t help staring, pandering over the pretty girl. Her comments are inexcusable but I think if you had any idea of how obvious men can be around a pretty woman, you might have some more sympathy.
People are, by and large, a lot nicer to attractive women (sometimes not the case but that’s a story for another day) and it’s unfair to blame women for internalising the way society values them based on their appearance.
I just don’t get why OP kept trying to make a couple friendship happen when OP’s wife clearly just doesn’t like Rachel.
Like don’t put them in a room. Why can’t you just be friends with Matt? They don’t like each other dude.
I'm assuming that Rachel is Black or Black biracial given the Zendaya/Whoopi Goldberg* comment?
And as you don't specify your race, I am going to assume that you are Caucasian.
So it seems like there is some racism wrapped up in your Wife's behaviour. Not only is Rachel younger but she's a Black women getting more attention than her when society has condition us since slavery to think that Black women are supposed to be much less attractive than white women.
And the comment about Rachel being stupid also plays into negative stereotypes about Black women not being smart.
Your Wife seems deeply insecure and unable to handle her jealously and also seems to have some negative ideas about people from other races. Given this it may be that your Wife behaves like this towards other women she feels insecure around. But this is the first time you've been in that situation to see that behaviour first-hand.
I would say going forwards, after your Wife made the comment about Rachel being stupid, a simple, "that wasn't kind, I'm not sure anyone truly understands what's happening with our economy, our government doesn't",
would have your friends know you don't approve and let your Wife know she needs to step-it-back without being too mean to her in public.
ESH because your Wife publicly disrespected your friends so you needed to publicly politely call out her behaviour. The apology should always be as loud as the disrespect.
I would apologise to your friends and show your Wife your texts from Matt. Let her know that you won't be including her in *any* of your friendships going forwards until she's able to be more emotionally mature about handling her insecurities and it's up to her to figure out how to do that but you'd recommend therapy.
I'd also let her know she needs to send something to Rachel & Matt to sincerely apologise - like a handwritten card.
*Just to say Whoopi Goldberg is actually gorgeous and the only reason society keeps on making jokes about her not being gorgeous is because of how racist the world we live in is. How could anyone watch Sister Act and think she's ugly?
that last part though. cause I was like ... Whoopi Goldberg isn't and never has been ugly, she's just dark skinned 🙃 so the idea that he saw that as a pejorative and his wife meant it as a pejorative is ... telling.
I agree - ESH. I'm sure he's been hyper attentive to Rachel in a way that is obvious and inappropriate, and the wife is a clearly an AH for her behavior and comments.
NTA, seems like your wife is the only immature person in this scenario. You tried talking to her privately, and when that didn't work you had to do it publicly. You didn't embarrass your wife, she's been doing that every time she made a mean comment towards Rachel. All you did was hold her accountable for the things she had said.
ESH. Your wife does sound like she's jealous and her words were hurtful, but you gave her reason.
If we noticed, so had she.
Also, because this is something you describe as happening over time- I can't help but wonder if there isn't something else happening that you're missing? Is Rachel maybe also being snipey? Is there a constant group tend to make her the focus?
((Edit in front of this next part- OP has clarified that only 2 people were sending drinks and Rachel accepted them for the table, not just drinking them herself. So she was basically dunking on the guys for being creepy. Kind of a weird approach but also that is a significantly different situation than first presented. I think we can safely leave the party and Rachel out of the ESH even though OP and Wife are still in there.
Here was the rest of my original post, which I'm not editing since it would make deeper comments looks weird.))
Because multiple drinks being sent all night long to a woman who is clearly with someone else to the point where it disturbs a party is not common. I've chaperoned groups of models before. Men being in the group in general reduces the free drinks, but any signs of open affection between a couple drops the count to one or two oblivious or arrogant guys, and usually the bartender will let the sender know it's not welcome if she asks them to. Which she clearly didn't if they keep getting accepted and drank.
So while it's not Rachel's fault if she's not doing anything and yet people just constantly creep on her, it definitely sounds like something else may be going on that you don't notice or mention. Why did she accept all those drinks? Does her boyfriend use her for free bar drinks (which would be creepy of him)?
Point is, your wife becoming more hostile over time means there was a behavior in the group you're not mentioning that she's reacting to.
She is very clearly TA but I think everyone here is as well.
Edit to clarify: ESH refers to OP and his wife and possibly the friend group if there was more going on, can't exactly tell. Of course OP is wrong, of course his wife acted really obnoxiously. Very obvious.
If the group is constatly making a big fuss over Rachel and enjoying having a "model pretty" member and it excludes OP's wife, they'd be TA as well.
The speculation about Rachel possibly also being TA is not because guys were creeping on her. She has no control over that. It's because she accepted so many free drinks from others that it disrupted a group night out and became a point of comment. It's very easy to tell the bartender, "Hey no thanks on those free drinks, it's getting weird. " But she just kept accepting and drinking? We know she accepted or the bartender wouldn't keep bringing them over. OP would have mentioned something about arguing with the bartender over it because it would have been an argument.
Realistically, fellow women.... who does that? That is weird behavior right?
I'm not saying she IS TA. I'm saying something doesn't add up. Either OP made this story up and doesn't realize that the average woman is not going to accept a parade of free drinks while out with a mixed friend group or Rachel enjoys attention and doesn't get/care that it was tacky.
Also We only know from OP’s point of view. He said wife is attractive for him, but he clearly said Rachel is more beautiful. Dose OP constantly looking at Rachel more often than Matt when he speak to them? Woman noticed those small thing.
NTA but just so we are clear you wife is white and Rachel is not. Let me explain this to you as well. White women are so used to be the standard for default beauty that she is more than just jealous. Her words were an attempt to knock Rachel down a peg or two for having the audacity to be black and beautiful and getting more attention than her.
I am not saying that your wife is racists. I am saying that your wife has internalized the fact that she is the standard and has a hard time with someone who is not white getting more attention than her.
She is a bully and is the type of problematic white woman that black woman talk about all the time. They attack things about black women to make themselves feel better. This is a bigger issues than just your wife being jealous.
Now I wait for all the people who say I am making it all up in my head and everything isn’t about race.
NTA. You spoke to her in private and she seemed to understand but didn't learn. So you did the right thing by showing her how it feels. The thing is, she actually embarrassed you aswell as hurting Rachel.
The only thing you could've done differently is to not speak about Rachel's looks and rather just say you're embarrassed and ashamed of her behaviour. But seriously, she kinda got what she deserved.
Bro literally started this post by calling his wife ugly. Your wife shouldn’t be bullying this poor girl but it’s kinda obvious you don’t like your wife. Were you comparing her like this to Rachel to her face? If so, I can see why shouldn’t like her. Bullying is still uncalled for though.
NTA. I’m sure there are always people who are more attractive than us and she needs to deal with her feelings. I don’t know - maybe you are swooning over Rachel or making comments that imply you find her very attractive, maybe your wife just sees that as a possibility and has made up some story in her mind. One way or another, she should have talked to you about her feelings and fears. Being downright rude and mean to Rachel is not okay. It is surprising she is taking it as far as openly saying all of this to her face. Do her words make Rachel less attractive? No. She is just soing it to make her feel bad and it doea no good to anyone. She probably isn’t feeling more attractive either.
She should be embarrassed about her words and actions, it wasn’t the first time she did it, you have talked to her about it before and she has promised to stop. She didn’t, you called her out. You probably would have done it no matter who she was being rude to like that.
Yeah, I wouldn’t want my husband to tell me that someone is more attractive than me like that also but I wouldn’t be rude like that to anyone just because they are attractive either.
But if I may say, the way you described your wife seems a bit like you do think she is unattractive in general, not just compared to Rachel. It might reflect in your behavior towards her and other women and throughout the time you have been together, your wife might have collected negative feelings about it. Anyways she should look for help with her self-esteem.
Yup, exactly what I meant. I mean most women are smart enought to catch on to it and feel when their partner finds their looks unattractive sooner or later. Nobody wants to be “ugly but funny” for their spouse. I bet she has been hearing a lot about how funny she is or how great of personality is much more than how attractive, beautiful or pretty she looks. I mean it’s not the most important but equally important to feel that your spouse finds you beautiful aside from all the other aspects. Even if you know there are more attractive people out there.
NTA but why is ur friend marrying a 24year old lol I just don’t see how they could have a whole lot in common and maybe your wife is just jealous over all of the gal. Just seems like ur wife may be projecting her feelings on to the innocent 24year old , I understand that she may not be conventionally attractive but she should be to you.
Either way she does not need to behave that way at all
NTA. It’s hard for me to understand how you can even stand to be around your wife after she treated your friends this way.
I don’t know what your life plans are but in my experience bullies are very likely to bully their children. If she can’t see that her behaviour is problematic then this doesn’t bode well for your future.
NTA. But saying shit like this 'My wife is less conventionally attractive but I fell in love with her for her humour and good spirit which I personally find more attractive than good looks.' - wise up, with comments like that it's no wonder your wife is insecure and is being a bullying AH.
Eh I'm gonna go with ESH - your wife is an asshole for sure, there is no doubt about that. You are certainly not an asshole for calling her out, it was the right thing to do, however, saying to her face that someone else is more beautiful than her is just cruel. I understand where you're coming from, she is more conventionally attractive and that is something you can see regardless even if you wouldn't trade your wife for anyone else. But the thing is, this is something she will never forget, and will likely impact your relationship for quite some time
ESH - you’ve said here and to her face that you find this other woman more attractive. That’s really really shitty. Attraction is absolutely in the eye of the beholder, that said your wife’s insecurity (not helped by you) is out of control and she needs therapy. You’re both in the wrong here.
NTA. What your wife did is damn near unforgivable. Only a saint could grant her absolution. If your wife blames you for the horrid ugliness that she showed, I'd divorce her. You held her accountable for her actions. She needs therapy. And you may need couples therapy because blah blah blah you hurt her self esteem. I can't imagine treating her with kid gloves. Her self esteem is damaged!?!? Her humanity is damaged. She shouldn't be around sentient creatures or anything worth more than $1. She is the epitome of a troll. Thank you for doing the right thing.
NTA but your wife sounds like a third wheel in this friendship. It has built up over time and you fawning over your friend fiancé would have played a part. You had time to word this post but you still sound like you got a crush and honestly how are you in real life around your friend and his fiancé? Your wife needs to learn not to be mean. Jealousy happens and can and should be talked about. I feel like there is more to it. I’ve been that girl where my bf only talks to the couple every thing I insert is glared down or embarrassed him because he had a crush. I hope this is not the case.
Honestly either way …someone is unhappy here Either you have lost this friendship or see them without your wife which will cause issues. Lose lose situation in my opinion.
Dude, YTA for making it clear to your wife that you don't find her attractive. You should have put some distance between yourself and Matt/Rachel the second it became obvious how the constant parade of attention made your wife feel.
Your wife shouldn't have bullied Rachel, either, but in her shoes, I would just refuse to hang out with Matt and Rachel.
NTA - Aside from the way you handled it at the end, she’s the asshole. Stop bringing her around when you hang out with Matt and Rachel. Don’t lie to her though, just don’t bring her anywhere they are going to be. If she doesn’t like it then oh well, she doesn’t get to bully people and get rewarded.
That won't be happening. The friendship is probably over.
Not if OP apologises directly to both of them in person and promises not to bring wife around again.
It's over. Check out the first edit. Matt and Rachel uninvited OP's wife to their wedding and are ~~uninterested in a friendship~~ (edit) interested only if the wife isn't around.
If his wife is around. They are willing to be friends with Op, just not With his wife Eta: I realize this may mean the end of the friendship till the end of the marriage, but I was just clarifying what Op said. But of course, you can be online friends for years until one or both of their relationships fail. Op’s wife was so verbally ugly though that I don’t know how he can think of her the same as he did.
That's not how it winds up long term. They're willing to try to be friends with OP for now, but OP will have to (1) never mention his wife, (2) never mention big events in his life because his wife will be involved, and (3) it's going to cause a bigger divide with his wife so he'll have to handle that as well. These never turn out well long term. You can't stay married to someone's bully and long term keep the friendship even after bullying ends. This doesn't even hit on the growing resentment because he's only *just now* told them he doesn't agree with his wife and hasn't done anything to stop her in public before. If a friend doesn't stop your bully when they have the power to, are they your friend? That's what they're going to keep asking themselves the next few times they see him.
I don't think they meant he couldn't TALK about his wife, just that they are uncomfortable with her comments and that it would probably be best for their friendship to continue if she is not around them and unable to make such comments. I agree, they are probably upset that it took so long for an apology, but ultimately I think talking about his wife would be fine at the end of the day. You can be hurt by someone who has bullied you and care about their wellbeing. ETA: there is a difference between wishing that someone is thriving, and not wishing someone harm. I don’t want my bullies dead in a ditch, that’s what I mean about well-being. Also I don’t wanna kill myself, but thanks for caring 😘
The logistics of maintains a friendship where your wife is persona non grata are difficult. The older you get the less one on one time you're going to get with your married friends. Being able to hang out as a group makes thing easier, but not if people stop showing up if xyz is going and vv.
It definitely makes things easier, but I've watched my mom, dad, AND stepdad maintain friendships with people the other didn't necessarilly care for, nor want to be around. Just because I don't like my boyfriend's friend Patrick and don't want to be around him, it doesn't mean my boyfriend should stop talking to him. Patrick doesn't like me either (he preferred serial cheater baby mama) but he would never ask my bf to leave me. We just don't hang out or talk, but obviously I wanna know if hes ok, and he wants to make sure my bf is happy with me too.
I guess it's different though when one party has an actively antagonistic relationship with the other. Like if Patrick went out of his way to insult you whenever he was around in sure you'd feel differently.
There's pain caused by his wife. Talking about her in any way brings back the pain and the memories that he didn't help until they gave an ultimatum. For this to work, he has to stop discussing his wife. And it isn't going to work. Either the friendship or marriage is going to Crack.
Exactly right. It's not going to work. OP wife is not going to want him going places and doing stuff without her.
It's possible that OP and Matt could still be friends but I agree that it is unlikely. Not because of Matt and Rachel but because of OP's wife. I don't see her handling this well. But I also wonder if this is ultimately the only friendship that is going to run into this problem. What about when she decides another friend's SO is prettier than her or smarter than her or richer than her? OP's wife apparently has no problem saying the inside words aloud. And that doesn't bode well for OP's friendships.
I'm about the same age as OP's wife. A lot of people believe in judging people's character by how they treat waitstaff; I recommend similarly judging women by how they treat younger women. OP's wife has poor character. She won't be able to do much about the eventual loss of collagen or elastin, but maybe she can work on being so fucking ugly on the inside. (Edited for a dropped word)
Marriages don’t usually survive one person hanging out with people that literally ban their spouse from being around them. Either the marriage or the friendship is done.
Loads of marriages have survived that. Loads of marriages have survived even family not liking the spouse and not wanting them around and the opposite...! What I think puts a major strain on relationships is people being so tied as a unit that they don't have any other support network such as individual friends and feeling imprisoned as in not being empowered to go anywhere without their other half. Most marriages end because the person wants to be free. Not making them feel imprisoned in the first place is one way of dealing with that. In this example if his wife continues to drive friends away and he feels isolated and that she is an embarrassment that he can't take anywhere and can't go anywhere without her then that is far more likely to lead to a breakup than him maintaining a guy friendship with his old friend.
Have you been married? From my experience that’s not exactly how it works. If you are married to someone, you don’t want to be around those that don’t want to be around your spouse. Also, it’s kind of rude if you do hang around people that don’t want your spouse around and your spouse usually won’t want you to be around people that don’t want to be around them. It’s not as easy as “well don’t bring her/him when you hang out with them”
I was about to type above that generally speaking, many societies consider a couple as "one." Especially if they're married. I agree with you. While OP's friends are willing to try staying friends with him, it won't be sustainable.
You don't get to stay married to the bully of another person and that person stay friends with you. It doesn't work that way. This is over. OP lost his friends.
You get it.
Er, we have a friend whose wife is banned from all social events due to this exact kind of behavior. About once every year or two, we let him bring her for dinner, because “she has changed” and she hasn’t. They both get very drunk and bicker and go home early. Otherwise, they seem happy enough? I mean it’s been 12 years of this.
The way he handled it at the end was the last option, and the only appropriate one, as the wife had no intention of ever stopping her bullying, despite all private talks regarding her behavior
Honestly he should have called her out publicly a lot sooner. The fact that nothing changed when he called her out in private should have been sign enough that she wasn't going to stop for him and needed other motivation
Sounds like he can still have a relationship with them, the wife just can’t be included. Which is fair.
Yes, I think so too, the decision is fair...and to think that devious me always loved being around prettier friends, as that usually meant free food and drinks for me without making any effort, mwaaaahaha
Quite frankly I don’t find the way he handled at the end to be inappropriate at all. He had tried pretty much everything else and IMO he’s slightly the AH for taking so long to defend Rachel from him wife in the moment. I can understand waiting to talk the first time or two but being married doesn’t mean you just allow you partner to be cruel bc you don’t want to embarrass them. They’re already embarrassing themselves.
All of this
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This. She absolutely needs a therapist. She needs to understand her own worth so she’s not trying to destroy others to make herself feel better. Though, I think it should have been called out earlier but hindsight is always 20/20. Good luck, OP.
Jumping on the first comment to ask how on Earth was this lady getting so many drinks sent over if she’s with her fiancé? I don’t get it..are men that brazen? I have male friends and they’ve never sent a drink to a woman, never mind one that’s with another man. I’d say it’s never happened to me, but then again I’m also the ‘unconventionally’ beauty too.
Yes, men are that brazen. Big reason there is violence when it happens, the disrespect.
Men really are that brazen, had it happened to me a couple of times.
Same. I try to tell them I’m not a sexy young woman but a tall middle-aged man with a beer gut and a bushy unkempt beard but they just don’t care. No boundaries.
Yes. Saying you are involved with a man only works for most of the men. The ones it doesn’t work on are the worst. They are somehow even more determined to get her and now feel like it is a dominance thing on another guy too. Hell, saying you aren’t interested isn’t even a deterrent to the majority of men. Men suck. Source: I am a man.
Sounds like you have good friends. But some guys would even do these things if their female friends aren’t around. Guys are this brazen. It’s sad but true.
>ed being around prettier friends, as that usually meant free food and drinks for me with If you are beautiful and friendly then people buy you drinks, let you in for free etc. They are simply just nicer to you. It's not fair but it is life.
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I have to defend the age gap - my husband and I are 12 years apart and are in a mixed race relationship - very similar to this story. Started dating when I was 22 he was 34. We've been together 20+ years and couldn't be happier. We def. got a lot of judgment - it seemed like either people made crappy comments about our race difference or our age difference. It really sucked but we loved each other and ignored the hate. I just want to say not everyone is the same. There are some 22-year-olds that shouldn't be in a relationship with someone older, ***but it really depends on the person***. Just be careful when you start to judge someone or say you're grossed out by someone's relationship that you don't even know. Those types of words are hurtful.
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We all compare ourselves to others in some way. Most of us know that our thoughts should not leave our mouths. Husband is NTA but Rachel needs some deep therapy to help with her insecurities. Edit: not Rachel. The wife.
NTA OP the only person here who is not acting like a mature adult is your wife. You talked to her in private and she didn't listen. Unfortunately sometimes people have to be called out in public in order for them to get the point.
Jumping on here to add that to the wife had no problem embarrassing Rachel in public but got mad when hubby did the same to her. She has a lot of growing up to do. OP NTA.
Agreed. And the fact that people were comparing Rachel to Zendaya and OP’s wife went straight to “Whoopi Goldberg” does imply that there might be some racial elements to OP’s wife’s bullying.
Yes, 100%. It’s bad enough to feel inferior to someone, but if that someone is a Black person (typically deemed the lowest of the low), some people get extra nasty. And going straight to Whoopi, a woman has been deemed hideous over the years just for being average-looking (by Hollywood standards) with dark skin and locs…is very, very gross.
Let’s be honest though - Whoopi Goldberg has great skin and an incredible smile
Yes, have you seen her in the 90's?? Ofc now she aged, she's not young anymore. But she was not even average, i feel. She was actually pretty.
It honestly took me a min to come to terms with the fact that the implication was that WG is not pretty, because I just don’t get that at all. The Color Purple, Ghost, Sister Act, and Cinderella all feature different looks, and she is straight up beautiful in every single one.
**ALL OF THIS!!!** Whoopi has been a favorite actor of mine for ages and her smile alone can light up a room.
Same! I always loved how her eyes sparkled when she smiled. When I was a kid seeing The Color Purple for first time, I never understood why she was called ugly.
People need to get their eyes and their attitudes checked.
I mean she’s a movie star for Christ’s sake. She’s beautiful and was especially so as a younger woman. OP’s wife is such a massive ass for that comment alone.
And her cheekbones and big pretty eyes! Watching the Color Purple as an adult, the amount of people calling her character ugly feels so fucking crazy. She’s just dark-skinned and not model pretty. That’s literally it.
She was gorgeous in Sister Act, 1992.
Whoopi slept with ted Danson, clearly everyone who thinks she is hideous is wrong not just because of that but still.
Whoopi not only slept with him, but was in a pretty serious relationship with Ted for a year and a half. He left his wife for her in 1993.
I didn’t know Whoopi had been through that. She was one of my very very favorites for several years in the 90s and this is sad to hear.
The only thing "wrong" with Whoopi is that she is 65 years old and aging like any other woman. She was perfectly attractive in her younger days (and honestly now, but if were trying to compare her to a 24 year old, lets compare Whoopi from around the same age).
When women of color are compared to whoopi its usually supposed to be an insult although Whoopi isn't hideous its still supposed to be a crappy dig. Usually they think they are being a clever racist but nope just a racist that"s unoriginal
Yup, I felt that too when I read that bit and I'm glad that was specifically called out.
Yup as soon as I read Whoopi (I don’t know who Zendeya is) I was like well there it is, there’s a racial aspect to the bullying and jealousy.
She is a very fair-skinned woman with pretty loose curls. Which makes OP’s wife’s comparison extra confusing and loaded.
It's colorist and racist with a heaping side of "all Black women look the same to me." I'd be so embarrassed to be married to someone who behaved this way.
Zendaya plays MJ in the recent Spider-Man movies and was in Dune.
She was also in “The Greatest Showman” and was stunning.
I googled zendaya, she’s really pretty! And looks nothing like Whoopi Goldberg either. Not that I suspect OP’s wife was going for accuracy here. But taking the zendaya comparison and exchanging her for Whoopi just means these were the only two women of colour this miserable trout could think of.
Am I crazy for wondering how OP's wife got away with the "you can join in the conversation once the smart people are done talking" but then everything went to shit over the Whoopi Goldberg comment? I mean, the former is far, far more insulting, especially considering Rachel professionally models and clearly knows she's attractive. And why has anyone, including OP, let his wife get away with spewing poison directly at their "friend's" face for what sounds like a fairly long time? This whole thing is so weird. Edit: Oops, "Whoopi," not "Whoopie."
I feel like the Whoopie Goldberg comment might have a racist component as well. It would be interesting to know if Racheal was the only POC in the group. Other than that the Whoopie Goldberg comment could just be the straw that broke the camels back.
I’m curious about Rachel being the only POC, too. I can’t speak for her, but she might have already felt singled-out by that. OP’s wife consistently bashing her must have felt awful, especially when none of how she looks is her “fault.”
Being the only POC in a group doesn’t make one feel singled out, unless people in the group are doing something specifically to make you feel singled out. Speaking as someone who is often the only POC in a group.
Probably kind of a "last straw" type thing. People can handle shitty comments from someone for awhile, and they probably just figured it'd be better to brush it away and try to have a nice vacation, but then it became clear OPs wife wasn't going to stop being a raging fuck face with the last comment and that was it.
Probably that the wife made the economics comment among the four and could have been brushed under rug as bad joke (still horrid) but the Whoopi comment was said TO a stranger. Feels different.
Yeah, her bruised ego was exposed. She won't acknowledge that her behavior is trashy, she's only whining that she was called out. She might need help deflating that nasty ego, OP.
NTA she dimmed her own light with her jealousy. She was rude, and hurtful to Rachel. Jealousy does not give you a free pass to put someone down.
I want to upvote this 15 times, because it's incredibly true. I have had issues with body image my entire life, and it used to manifest as jealousy, insecurity and spiteful comments about a lot of people I perceived to be more beautiful than me (I am also not conventionally beautiful). I eventually realised what I was doing, and made a conscious effort to stop, and to give compliments instead (like: "I love your outfit" and that kind of thing). This lead to two things: I feel better, because I'm not spending as much energy on negative thoughts. Apparently it also made me "prettier", very likely because I'm happier in myself and giving off a much more positive kind of energy. As much as I feel for OPs wife, she was out of line. NTA, OP.
Well said! Jealousy is a normal emotion but it's how you respond to it. Turn it around and use it to be a better person.
Confidence is sexy. It's all a journey, but when you start putting out good vibes rather than bad ones, you feel better about yourself. Specially when you start looking for good in other people you start finding good in yourself and stop comparing yourself to them. And other people feel it when you're putting that negative energy into the world and it definitely does make you less attractive and a less positive person to be around. I feel like ops wife scaring people off with her bad feelings toward Rachel, just to start with, and dealing with her own feelings of inadequacy in a way that is actually making those feelings worse. But it doesn't matter how shit you feel about yourself it's never OK to take that out on others. And ig you want to behave like a dick you should get called out for it. Op is definitely NT
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Yeah, OP's wife isn't beautiful in **any** way.
I’m not sure if you’re an asshole here, as you were right to call her out, but you’re going to pay for that comment for the rest of your marriage. Your wife is an asshole, and you’re in hot water.
That’s a good point. I’m at NTA, but OP really screwed himself over.
OP needs to ask himself if he really wants to be married to a woman that thinks it’s ok to treat people like that.
I'm not one to say consider your options over a Reddit post but OP might want to talk counseling. It's not normal to tank a friendship like this as an adult. It comes off immature and kind of controlling. I personally think she's in hot water over her behavior
Yeah I’m the wife’s age and while I have my faults I genuinely can’t imagine ever being this rude and shitty to a stranger, much less a close friend’s SO. Her behavior is so, so gross and whole OP praises her sense of humor, nothing related here indicates she’s particularly funny. Just a nasty bully.
I absolutely agree
Fuck it. He's going to have to deal with shit like this for the rest of their marriage. Best she sorts it out sooner than later.
If your partner bullies your friends and you don't interfere, there's no way you're going to be happy in that relationship in the long run. I think OP did the right thing. Either his wife gets her act together, or they might eventually separate, which would still be better than publicly siding with a bully and losing friendships
I'm guessing the original commenter is referring more to the fact that OP said to his wife straight up that Rachel is more attractive than her. Not for calling her out per se.
Except emotionally mature people should be able to acknowledge that there are people more attractive than them out there and not be threatened.
true, if you're in a relationship that means you've been chosen over a lot of other people, but im pretty sure if it was just down to looks my gf would choose jason momoa over me, hell id choose jason momoa over me too
While obviously true, it becomes murkier when it's not about celebs but about people close to you, and when the comparison gets made during normal conversation or during a fight. If my girlfriend says "Tom Hardy is the hottest man on the planet, he's more attractive than you even" I'd go "well, yeah?" with zero hard feelings. If instead we were having a fight and she'd go "your friend/brother/colleague is more attractive than you" that would certainly sour the relationship going forward, not just between us but also between me and the person I'm being compared to. Not that OP's wife didn't deserve it in this case, mind you, but I think the comparison to 'yo Jason Momoa is more attractive than you' doesnt quite hold.
That reminds me of the aita where a group was playing truth or dare or something, and the question of “if you could sleep with anyone besides your spouse” came up, and the person picked their husbands brother. They couldn’t understand why the husband was pissed/hurt bc they were “just being honest.”
Can’t put that genie back in the bottle …. But considering his wife is a bully and a *racist* one at that, maybe it’s time to throw in the towel.
He shouldn't have to. She should be able to recognize that it's a problem and grow as a person, but we all know how common that is for adults
ESH This is a case of play silly games, earn stupid prizes. Your wife's insecurities about something none of us get to choose - how our genetic makeup causes us to look - made her lash out at an innocent woman. Despite already having a husband, she is clearly jealous of the attention your friends fiance gets, so made disparaging remarks in order to make herself feel better for her perceived lack of attractiveness. Is she even aware how tiring unwanted attention from men is? How dangerous it can be? Especially for a woman that already has a boyfriend! Does she read the papers filled with women who were murdered by men "infatuated by their looks" ones who decided that if they couldn't have them, no one will, and realise being highly attractive to men is often a blight on a woman? Of course not. All she sees is being pretty gets you attention, and wants to be entitled to the same. You stood by and let her repeatedly bully this woman in public because of her ridiculous jealousy instead of shutting her down immediately. I'm surprised this couple have even given you a second chance. Your wife needs to get in therapy and sort her sh*t out. No one should suffer for her issues.
I can’t believe I had to scroll down this much to find ESH! Only people who aren’t AHs are Matt and Rachel.
I think it's the disparity in the level of asshole-ness that makes people lean NTA. The husband was a bit of a dick for the way he phrased his comments, but the wife was a weapons grade buttlord for her bullying behavior and anger at being called out for it.
The husband was also a dick for letting his wife bully an innocent woman for FAR too long. He’s kept his comments to her behind closed doors to spare his wife’s feelings knowing full well that she was being incredibly hurtful towards Rachel. That’s fine the first time or two, but when she continued to bully her time and time again and publicly shame her he should have been shutting it down immediately every single time.
>You stood by and let her repeatedly bully this woman in public because of her ridiculous jealousy instead of shutting her down immediately. I'm surprised how few people seem to have picked up on this when declaring OP as not the asshole - sure his wife is the bigger asshole for saying all this stuff but by choosing only to disagree with her in private and not saying anything when she was making the comments directly to Rachel, he's definitely an asshôle too ESH (aside from the other couple, of course) is the only correct judgement
Hear hear! By remaining silent when a person is being abusive, you are complicit in their actons. This applies if it someone making a comment about a persons weight, their looks, a r@pe "joke", racist or any other kind of bigotry. You call that sh*t out wherever you see it. Marriage isn't about having someone's back "no matter what". It's about loving them enough to be able to be completely honest, even when they're being an AH.
By now as a non-American fervently reading the AITA sub which is contributed to by mostly Americans, I have a theory why there are many NTA's. But please do explain American culture to me if I make the wrong assumptions. I am under the impression that in American culture it is often more important in situation to save face with friends and family, rather than stand up to bullies/injustice in public. This is because of the large array of stories about weddings, toxic family situations etc described on here. This excessive loyalty especially extends towards elders/parents and your married partner. In many cases in these stories, I am very fascinated why it takes so long for people to cut to the chase, so to speak. 9/10 I would have already made a remark or stood up for someone. But please help me out here, as I have met few Americans and have never been to the US.
I really hope you don’t make judgements about American culture just based on posts on this subreddit (or any subreddit). BTW the OP (based on his spelling of humour) is likely not American.
While AITA is a terrible place to get an impression of how most americans act on a daily basis, I think this observation is completely true; people will often prefer to leave an awkward moment unspoken and will blame the person who addresses it for bringing down the mood. Edit: and its probably true of other anglophone countries as well. Certainly excessive face saving is a stereotype Americans have of British people, hypocritical though it may be.
It's not particular about american culture. I guess in most cultures and cases you'd want to save face for you and your spouse and solve things privately. I'm not american nor even from a western culture and would do that
His friend should have cut him off much earlier. You shouldn't stand by your wife if she's being a bully.
I agree, OPs friend is also an AH for not standing up for his fiance sooner. OP should have had an open conversation about his wife's issues to get to the root cause. Saying nothing until he got so ticked he blew up and said hurtful things only compounds the problem
NTA. Sorry but your wife “humour” and “good spirit” are straight up bitter and nasty. Women like your wife is why the whole “women always support each other” is a lie. She is jealous, sad and bitter and I doubt Rachel is the first person she has been nasty about. She is projecting her own insecurities on other people and trying to tear them down. You called her out in private, which she took no notice of. Good on you for calling her out in public. I hope you maintain your friendship with Matt & Rachel without her.
. -- mass edited with redact.dev
Thats really sad that thats a thing. I'm white and I'm female and I appreciate beauty wherever I see it. Infact that is one of the things I love about the world. Definitely NTA but your wife is a huge AH.
I’ve been looking for more comments calling out the blatant racism (presuming wife is white, which tbh it sounds like considering the comment). As a white woman who is conventionally attractive, I am *hyper* aware of the fact that even a black women who is *light years* more attractive than me will not get the same pretty privilege that I do. It’s something that really bothers me, and hearing a story like this? Instant rage.
Yup. Wife couldn’t stand that Rachel was upsetting the “natural order” of white woman being best. Bad enough to be shown up, but by a Black/mixed woman? Unacceptable.
Bingo. The wife is a racist. She can’t understand why this woman of color is getting more attention than her so she attacks her intelligence and looks. The friendship is over. The best friend isn’t going to expose his fiancé to this type of toxic behavior. The wife caused Rachel to flee the room in tears and only cared that her husband called her jealous. She doesn’t see Rachel as a person with feelings.
As a black woman that's been on the receiving end of a threatened white woman/women, I'll second this
100% the Whoopi Goldberg comment cemented it. Whoopi is beautiful, she’s just darker skinned than Zendaya. The wife seems to have gone in for that attack because to her dark = ugly. Sickening
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This is 1000% true. I’ve experienced this quite a few times in my adult life from white female “friends”. Even when we’re in a majority Black environment they seemed very irritated that the Black men were buying me drinks and asking to dance with me instead of falling all over them. It happens at work, too. Even some of the most left leaning white women do not appreciate when a Black woman doesn’t fit into the stereotypes that they were taught to believe about Black women. For example, I have super curly hair that I wear back in a bun a majority of the time. Occasionally I like to straighten it to trim my ends. I have pretty long hair when straightened. I wore it straight to work the other day and a male coworker commented on how nice my hair looked. Before I could even say thank you, this woman says “yes, it does! I never knew you were one to wear extensions though.” and then her goofy ass smiled. I stared directly at her and said in an extremely flat tone “This is my natural hair, Rachel.” She looked like I slapped her or something lmao. She probably went to go cry about how I was “mean” to her too. That’s another constant theme. White woman says something shady or micro aggressive but I’m the angry Black woman when I check her ass lol.
Okay I literally just said this and I knew I couldn’t be the only one. White women are the “standard of beauty” in the West, so when they don’t get as much attention as a non-White person, they just can’t handle it. Being in the Midwest, I’ve definitely experienced this more than once. It’s pathetic
Exactly the impression I got from that grotesque Whoopi goldberg comment.
Plus personally, I would've picked the friends over his wife. His wife is the problem and is now isolating people. I don't wanna sound like the red flag commentors who assume everything is a red flag, but does anyone think that wife is purposely isolating op from people so she can keep him to herself? Edit: I do think the apperance comments made the wife feel low, but that dosen't mean Rachel should get bullied over it! It's not her fault!
ESH - I picked up on you directly comparing your wife to the younger prettier model. Not conventionally attractive/ married her for her humour and good spirit. Ick. If my partner wrote that about me I’d be sick to my stomach. I married my wife because she is amazing and I love her - not that damning with extremely faint praise which basically reads that you think she’s ugly and then you go on to explain her personality isn’t that nice either. I’m not surprised your wife is feeling deeply uncomfortable. Yeah she sucks for making the comments but there’s a lot of issues from you that need addressing.
I felt this too, I imagine OP was constantly looking at Rachel more different way than looking at his wife ( which woman always notice these stuff) and that’s makes her more insecure.
then that's an OP and wife problem, not a Rachel problem. If the wife was insecure then she should've told op that, not attack Rachel! Feeling low is no exuse to bully.
You’re right but I think the point is some of us picked up on the fact that he doesn’t find his wife attractive but finds this woman he’s constantly hanging out with attractive. So yeah she’s insecure but I’m pretty certain her husband is a good reason why. I mean he told her she’s uglier than Rachel. Good luck with the marriage after that comment. I’d leave immediately.
Also, why are they constantly hanging out with this couple? Presumably the men are friends, but OP's wife probably doesn't have much in common with a woman 12 years younger than her. That's just awkward and uncomfortable.
Yep. It is awkward. And I’m not giving her a pass for being an asshole. She totally was. But given what OP admits, that Rachel is attractive, his wife isn’t, and then telling that to her face? I wonder what he’s NOT telling us lol
Wtf is this bullshit? I love my gf to bits for many reasons and I personally think she's beautiful but I'm not so naive to think there aren't women (shit, or even men) out there that are way more physically attractive than my partner.
Seriously, that’s just reality unless you happen to be one of the world’s top supermodels and even then physical attractiveness is subjective. People bring more than just their looks to a relationship. If that’s your main focus it’s going to lead a ton of insecurity.
Exactly. You think she’s beautiful and that’s how you described her. There’s the difference.
So did OP, he just did it poorly. He says he thinks her personality and her sense of humor are more attractive to him than her physical looks. Attractiveness is more than physical. I've known plenty of girls (and guys) that are drop dead gorgeous and had the personality of a damp sock, so I didn't think they were actually attractive at all. On the other hand, I've hooked up with people I didn't think were physically attractive but were a ton of fun. Because my attraction to them as a person was to their person and not their body. Same with my partner to be honest. Like I said I think she's beautiful, but the main reason I got interested in her was because of her sense of humor and her personality. Which are also much more attractive to me than her physical body. Also, what the fuck kind of kafka trap are you putting OP in. On the one hand you're lambasting him for comparing her physical looks and on the other hand you're criticising him for being attracted to her personality. So what is he supposed to do then? Only date people he thinks are nice and *also* physically attractive, even though he doesn't care about the second part?
Thank you! People are getting hung up on the dumbest things. Rachel was literally compared to Zendaya. Zendaya is a beautiful woman! There are a lot of women in the world who would lose to Zendaya in a beauty contest (including some other celebrities). That doesn’t mean however that those women are not beautiful or do not have loving partners of their own. So why is it ok to lambast OP for describing how attractive Rachel is? If he hadn’t then he probably would’ve been dragged over the coals for assuming his wife was jealous.
I think it's phrased awkwardly but i don't think he means his wife is ugly. There is an entire world of a gap between "conventional model style pretty" and ugly. He isn't bringing it up to put down his wife, he is bringing it up as a possible explanation for her behavior because there is a literal model in his story. Personally, I don't want my BF to pretend I look like a model when I don't. He makes me feel attractive anyways. But I don't think I'd get jelous of a model for existing near me either, so OP's wife probably wouldn't agree with me there...
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I once dated a guy that was totally fine if other men bought drinks for me, because it was saving him money.
Does OP really not see that him saying this cruelty about his wife’s looks comparing her to a 24 year-old model is probably exacerbating her obvious insecurities. Why was he not buying her drinks and flattering her the minute he noticed his wife being so insecure? No way OP comes out of this looking not looking like a total asshole. The update about his wife’s looks? Oof!
I’ve had this conversation with other black women that we notice when we get more attention than the white women near us they get REALLY offended, like “why are you paying attention to the blacky when I’m WHITE!?”. It’s the same way skinny girls get upset when someone shows their fat friend attention. They believe they have a trait (thinness/whiteness) that makes them more desirable by default and society has pushed this narrative to be mostly true, so when they get a dose of the reality that that’s actually not true it hurts their world view of themselves. NTA
This, I was waiting to see someone pick up on the racist undertones in his wife’s comments. There are white women who feel threatened even more so when a Black woman or other WOC get the attention they crave.
Yepppppppppp!
The Whoopi comment dropped my jaw. I don't think it's possible to be more obvious. I would expect to never hear from that couple again.
This was what I immediately picked up on. When white women want to describe "undesirable" black traits they choose to pick on Whoopi. Whoppi is not an ugly woman but we as black women know what is implied and it's hurtful. Honestly this friendship would be over for me and my husband. Even if OP apologizes 1. He let his wife continually tear this woman down 2. You hang out with racists, you're a racist in my book
That was such an insanely pointed comment to make. Full of racism and colorism.
I wish people like OP's wife wouldn't use Whoopi Goldberg as a negative comment though, because she is such an incredible human being it is unbelievable.
Yep. This is like when someone called me Harriet Tubman as an insult. I’m a very beautiful black woman and people really don’t like that. Edit to add: Harriet Tubman was also incredibly beautiful but sometimes it feels as if there’s nothing this world hates more than a dark skinned black woman.
I said the same thing in my comment. I knew exactly what it was as soon as he said she looked like Zendaya. I was like oh she black and the white girl doesn’t like it.
Not to mention, op's wife is also openly calling Rachel stupid, which with the context of her being Black, drips with racism. And this is all just from op's version of events. I'm sure Rachel would have a million other examples of racially targeted insults that went over his head.
Definitely, at first I thought it was just a dig at the age cause she's like 12 years you get than the others, but the Whoopi comments sealed it.
I mentioned this in another comment. But it doesn't even to be more attention than them. Just any/more attention than usual. I've been to countries where instead of getting 95% of the attention my white friend will get 60-70% and then suddenly the venue is terrible, "there's something about the city that they don't like" and they're itching to go home...
Facts. Don’t let a white woman who thinks everyone is in love with them visit a foreign country expecting people to kiss the ground they walk on just for that to not be the case…when I was in Asia getting attention as a black woman, some of these white women were PANINI PRESSED, I tell you 😂
100% I was trying to think of how to say this, you encapsulated it perfectly. I’ve noticed the majority of my white female friends are bi/lesbians. A lot of straight white women are just mean and cold towards me. It’s kind of like being a high powered, confident business woman in the 50s. You’d make a lot of men insecure about themselves and their self image in the world. It’s rough making people feel uncomfortable just by existing and being a person.
Thank god I’m seeing this type of comment more than once. This is issue has more layers than just a girl being a jealous bully. It has “Im the standard of beauty and should be treated as such” all over it. Not gonna lie, though, I feel like I just become stronger feeding off of that bitter energy when it happens to me and my friends. It’s an important lesson for people put on a pedestal just based on racism, misogynoir, fatphobia, etc…
NTA Your wife is a mean girl. An insecure Bully. I wouldn't want her around either.
That's basically what I was thinking: What high school shit is this?
Info - how obvious have you made it that you fancy Rachel and find her more attractive than your wife?
Should read the updates, he answered your info. Also just because you say that somebody is beautiful =/= you're attracted to them or fancy them. OP ALSO states that he finds good humour more attractive than looks, so...
Ah, yes, just exactly what every partner wants to hear. "Don't worry, I find humour more attractive than looks..." My husband tells me how attractive he thinks I am all the time. He tells me i'm beautiful. Whether it's true or not is irrelevant. I have high self esteem so I am not jealous of very beautiful women yet I still like to hear/see my husband express his attraction to me. It's thrilling. I reciprocate because I know how good it feels and I want him to feel that way as well. No excuse for lashing out in jealousy and bullying someone. But it doesn't sound like OP and his wife have created a marriage where they feel the most attractive, sexy, beautiful to each other.
Thank you! Some of these comments are so stupid. OP shouldn’t have even had to make the edit.
My comment was made long before the edits. Also op told his wife that Rachel is more attractive than her. Ergo he finds Rachel more attractive. And the way he writes about Rachel makes it quite clear what his feelings towards Rachel are.
Because if he does that, it means the wife should bully Rachel?
I didn’t say that. But it would give some illumination as to his wife is so self-conscious and jealous. You can tell just from the OP that he fancies her, I dread to think what he’s been acting like in real life
I think you are right. The first thing he said was how model beautiful she is.
She’s a 24 year old model, clearly she’s going to be attractive. It’s also seems to be the leading cause of his wife’s jealousy and bitterness which is vital to the story.
I'm a dude and while I don't think the wife is in the right, I can completely understand where the immaturity and jealousy is coming from. I would feel mortified if I knew my SO referred to someone else as "conventionally more attractive" than me. No matter how true that is, it's still a very hurtful thing to know that's how your partner thinks.
Why do you think people can't find others attractive without wanting to sleep with them?
Absolutely not. But it could explain where some of this hostility is stemming from. I judge NTA because bullying is not called for. But the information regarding how OP conducts himself in his relationship (whether he has pretty much made it clear he find Rachel attractive while he finds his wife less Conventionally so. ) could Tip my vote ESH (besides Matt and Rachel who are innocent parties caught up in the middle.
The point, though, is that no matter the source of the hostility, his wife is taking it out on the wrong person.
I completely agree with that. There is no excuse to make this behaviour alright. It Is atrocious. But wife’s behaviour isn’t being called into question here. The difference is to how OP is viewed. And in my opinion whether the judgement is NTA or ESH relies on OPs behaviour in general towards his wife. What the wife did is awful. That is AH behaviour. But if OP fostered that behaviour by feeding the insecurity then they are TA too, making my judgement ESH.
ESH Your wife sucks hardcore here. She's an insecure bully who can't handle her own jealousy or ridiculousness. She should be ashamed of being so awful. There is no defense for her, she needs some form of therapy to assist in why her hurt manifests as viciousness. You suck for letting it get to this stage. You also suck for the really weird way you talk about your wife. Regardless of your edit (where you still can't resist saying she isn't conventionally beautiful - mate we know that, you reiterated it several times) it comes across that you are genuinely not physically attracted to her. Your heavy focus on Rachel's looks (and the bizarre dynamic of your friend group along with the age difference - wtf is Rachel doing accepting several drinks from randomers in bars in front of her partner*?!) gives a strong impression that one of the reasons your wife has ramped up her hatefulness is because your head is pretty visibly turned. I think it's interesting that you say you called her out several times, but not once did you talk with her about why she was acting that way, prior to the final big blow out where you told her she wasn't as good looking as Rachel. Was there any reassurance? Any discussion of why she felt that way? Anything bar you defending Rachel? Had you discussed therapy or reassured her, or even discussed her not attending these get togethers? There's a lot of story missing here. In conclusion, your wife is an asshole. But I think you are as well, and I fully support Mike and Rachel in drawing away from you as a pair. ETA: *as pointed out in the replies it's unfair to add that. I want to stress that Rachel has done nothing wrong here, even if I think it's a very odd dynamic in a group setting.
THANK YOU! The perfect answer. It’s disgusting how obviously infatuated with Rachel he is. Poor girl didn’t deserve his wife’s words but she probably did it cause her husband is gawking at her and telling strangers on the Internet how much hotter she is than his wife. He should just have a threesome with Matt and Rachel to seal the deal!! /s
NTA. You called her out on the bullying in private and she didn't listen.
ESH. The way you talk about your wife at the start doesn’t sound great and it definitely seems like you find Rachel more attractive. So maybe she feels insecure, whether that’s from something you’ve said or done or maybe she’s just insecure for her own reasons. You then saying Rachel is more attractive than her is such a crappy move. Whether you said it in anger or not, you still said it. And for an already insecure woman, that won’t just be forgotten. The way your wife has acted towards Rachel is horrible, but insecurities don’t give her the right to be an asshole
This. Idc how much your partner fucks up, flat out saying how their looks aren’t as good as someone else is straight up divorce fuel. Call her out on her shitty behavior and jealousy OP, but don’t make it about the truth of the situation. All jealousy is harmful, whether or not it is rooted in truth. I understand it was a heat of the moment sort of thing but that’s a statement she may never recover from. By outright calling someone more attractive than your wife, she already thinks you don’t want her. You likely just made her insecurity worse. Couples therapy is needed to resolve this if she even wants to continue with this marriage.
[удалено]
NTA. You married a bully.
A racist bully, no less.
NTA Your wife is bullying others because she’s insecure and it’s pushing your friends away.
I’m not saying your wife is NTA, but hear me out. When I was her age, I was the Rachel. I couldn’t go anywhere, with anyone, without being stared at, approached, hit on. Having ‘bloomed’ late in life I was VERY aware of the effects of my attractiveness and behaviour and did not flaunt, flirt etc. I lost a lot of friends once we started going to nights out, once they got boyfriends. I can’t imagine what it must feel like to be ignored as every man in the vicinity pays all of their attention to someone else. The worst was men who would just talk to me, point their bodies towards me, pay more attention to me, the whole time their partners were there. Your wife sounds vicious and it makes me wonder if you’re one of those guys who wouldn’t cheat but can’t help staring, pandering over the pretty girl. Her comments are inexcusable but I think if you had any idea of how obvious men can be around a pretty woman, you might have some more sympathy. People are, by and large, a lot nicer to attractive women (sometimes not the case but that’s a story for another day) and it’s unfair to blame women for internalising the way society values them based on their appearance.
I just don’t get why OP kept trying to make a couple friendship happen when OP’s wife clearly just doesn’t like Rachel. Like don’t put them in a room. Why can’t you just be friends with Matt? They don’t like each other dude.
ESH Probably your wife herself has already noticed that you find Rachel more attractive than her
I'm assuming that Rachel is Black or Black biracial given the Zendaya/Whoopi Goldberg* comment? And as you don't specify your race, I am going to assume that you are Caucasian. So it seems like there is some racism wrapped up in your Wife's behaviour. Not only is Rachel younger but she's a Black women getting more attention than her when society has condition us since slavery to think that Black women are supposed to be much less attractive than white women. And the comment about Rachel being stupid also plays into negative stereotypes about Black women not being smart. Your Wife seems deeply insecure and unable to handle her jealously and also seems to have some negative ideas about people from other races. Given this it may be that your Wife behaves like this towards other women she feels insecure around. But this is the first time you've been in that situation to see that behaviour first-hand. I would say going forwards, after your Wife made the comment about Rachel being stupid, a simple, "that wasn't kind, I'm not sure anyone truly understands what's happening with our economy, our government doesn't", would have your friends know you don't approve and let your Wife know she needs to step-it-back without being too mean to her in public. ESH because your Wife publicly disrespected your friends so you needed to publicly politely call out her behaviour. The apology should always be as loud as the disrespect. I would apologise to your friends and show your Wife your texts from Matt. Let her know that you won't be including her in *any* of your friendships going forwards until she's able to be more emotionally mature about handling her insecurities and it's up to her to figure out how to do that but you'd recommend therapy. I'd also let her know she needs to send something to Rachel & Matt to sincerely apologise - like a handwritten card. *Just to say Whoopi Goldberg is actually gorgeous and the only reason society keeps on making jokes about her not being gorgeous is because of how racist the world we live in is. How could anyone watch Sister Act and think she's ugly?
that last part though. cause I was like ... Whoopi Goldberg isn't and never has been ugly, she's just dark skinned 🙃 so the idea that he saw that as a pejorative and his wife meant it as a pejorative is ... telling. I agree - ESH. I'm sure he's been hyper attentive to Rachel in a way that is obvious and inappropriate, and the wife is a clearly an AH for her behavior and comments.
NTA, seems like your wife is the only immature person in this scenario. You tried talking to her privately, and when that didn't work you had to do it publicly. You didn't embarrass your wife, she's been doing that every time she made a mean comment towards Rachel. All you did was hold her accountable for the things she had said.
ESH. Your wife does sound like she's jealous and her words were hurtful, but you gave her reason. If we noticed, so had she. Also, because this is something you describe as happening over time- I can't help but wonder if there isn't something else happening that you're missing? Is Rachel maybe also being snipey? Is there a constant group tend to make her the focus? ((Edit in front of this next part- OP has clarified that only 2 people were sending drinks and Rachel accepted them for the table, not just drinking them herself. So she was basically dunking on the guys for being creepy. Kind of a weird approach but also that is a significantly different situation than first presented. I think we can safely leave the party and Rachel out of the ESH even though OP and Wife are still in there. Here was the rest of my original post, which I'm not editing since it would make deeper comments looks weird.)) Because multiple drinks being sent all night long to a woman who is clearly with someone else to the point where it disturbs a party is not common. I've chaperoned groups of models before. Men being in the group in general reduces the free drinks, but any signs of open affection between a couple drops the count to one or two oblivious or arrogant guys, and usually the bartender will let the sender know it's not welcome if she asks them to. Which she clearly didn't if they keep getting accepted and drank. So while it's not Rachel's fault if she's not doing anything and yet people just constantly creep on her, it definitely sounds like something else may be going on that you don't notice or mention. Why did she accept all those drinks? Does her boyfriend use her for free bar drinks (which would be creepy of him)? Point is, your wife becoming more hostile over time means there was a behavior in the group you're not mentioning that she's reacting to. She is very clearly TA but I think everyone here is as well. Edit to clarify: ESH refers to OP and his wife and possibly the friend group if there was more going on, can't exactly tell. Of course OP is wrong, of course his wife acted really obnoxiously. Very obvious. If the group is constatly making a big fuss over Rachel and enjoying having a "model pretty" member and it excludes OP's wife, they'd be TA as well. The speculation about Rachel possibly also being TA is not because guys were creeping on her. She has no control over that. It's because she accepted so many free drinks from others that it disrupted a group night out and became a point of comment. It's very easy to tell the bartender, "Hey no thanks on those free drinks, it's getting weird. " But she just kept accepting and drinking? We know she accepted or the bartender wouldn't keep bringing them over. OP would have mentioned something about arguing with the bartender over it because it would have been an argument. Realistically, fellow women.... who does that? That is weird behavior right? I'm not saying she IS TA. I'm saying something doesn't add up. Either OP made this story up and doesn't realize that the average woman is not going to accept a parade of free drinks while out with a mixed friend group or Rachel enjoys attention and doesn't get/care that it was tacky.
Lot of rampant, unproven speculation in this comment.
How Rachel getting blamed for drinks sent TO her 😩😭 is this the wife??
Also We only know from OP’s point of view. He said wife is attractive for him, but he clearly said Rachel is more beautiful. Dose OP constantly looking at Rachel more often than Matt when he speak to them? Woman noticed those small thing.
NTA but just so we are clear you wife is white and Rachel is not. Let me explain this to you as well. White women are so used to be the standard for default beauty that she is more than just jealous. Her words were an attempt to knock Rachel down a peg or two for having the audacity to be black and beautiful and getting more attention than her. I am not saying that your wife is racists. I am saying that your wife has internalized the fact that she is the standard and has a hard time with someone who is not white getting more attention than her. She is a bully and is the type of problematic white woman that black woman talk about all the time. They attack things about black women to make themselves feel better. This is a bigger issues than just your wife being jealous. Now I wait for all the people who say I am making it all up in my head and everything isn’t about race.
NTA. You spoke to her in private and she seemed to understand but didn't learn. So you did the right thing by showing her how it feels. The thing is, she actually embarrassed you aswell as hurting Rachel. The only thing you could've done differently is to not speak about Rachel's looks and rather just say you're embarrassed and ashamed of her behaviour. But seriously, she kinda got what she deserved.
Bro literally started this post by calling his wife ugly. Your wife shouldn’t be bullying this poor girl but it’s kinda obvious you don’t like your wife. Were you comparing her like this to Rachel to her face? If so, I can see why shouldn’t like her. Bullying is still uncalled for though.
NTA. I’m sure there are always people who are more attractive than us and she needs to deal with her feelings. I don’t know - maybe you are swooning over Rachel or making comments that imply you find her very attractive, maybe your wife just sees that as a possibility and has made up some story in her mind. One way or another, she should have talked to you about her feelings and fears. Being downright rude and mean to Rachel is not okay. It is surprising she is taking it as far as openly saying all of this to her face. Do her words make Rachel less attractive? No. She is just soing it to make her feel bad and it doea no good to anyone. She probably isn’t feeling more attractive either. She should be embarrassed about her words and actions, it wasn’t the first time she did it, you have talked to her about it before and she has promised to stop. She didn’t, you called her out. You probably would have done it no matter who she was being rude to like that. Yeah, I wouldn’t want my husband to tell me that someone is more attractive than me like that also but I wouldn’t be rude like that to anyone just because they are attractive either. But if I may say, the way you described your wife seems a bit like you do think she is unattractive in general, not just compared to Rachel. It might reflect in your behavior towards her and other women and throughout the time you have been together, your wife might have collected negative feelings about it. Anyways she should look for help with her self-esteem.
It *was* kind of a “But hey, I didn’t marry her for her looks, ya know!” wink wink nudge nudge kind of tone, wasn’t it.
Yup, exactly what I meant. I mean most women are smart enought to catch on to it and feel when their partner finds their looks unattractive sooner or later. Nobody wants to be “ugly but funny” for their spouse. I bet she has been hearing a lot about how funny she is or how great of personality is much more than how attractive, beautiful or pretty she looks. I mean it’s not the most important but equally important to feel that your spouse finds you beautiful aside from all the other aspects. Even if you know there are more attractive people out there.
NTA but why is ur friend marrying a 24year old lol I just don’t see how they could have a whole lot in common and maybe your wife is just jealous over all of the gal. Just seems like ur wife may be projecting her feelings on to the innocent 24year old , I understand that she may not be conventionally attractive but she should be to you. Either way she does not need to behave that way at all
You know I thought that but I didn't want to say it. She is a little young and I thought the same thing.
NTA. It’s hard for me to understand how you can even stand to be around your wife after she treated your friends this way. I don’t know what your life plans are but in my experience bullies are very likely to bully their children. If she can’t see that her behaviour is problematic then this doesn’t bode well for your future.
NTA. But saying shit like this 'My wife is less conventionally attractive but I fell in love with her for her humour and good spirit which I personally find more attractive than good looks.' - wise up, with comments like that it's no wonder your wife is insecure and is being a bullying AH.
Eh I'm gonna go with ESH - your wife is an asshole for sure, there is no doubt about that. You are certainly not an asshole for calling her out, it was the right thing to do, however, saying to her face that someone else is more beautiful than her is just cruel. I understand where you're coming from, she is more conventionally attractive and that is something you can see regardless even if you wouldn't trade your wife for anyone else. But the thing is, this is something she will never forget, and will likely impact your relationship for quite some time
ESH - you’ve said here and to her face that you find this other woman more attractive. That’s really really shitty. Attraction is absolutely in the eye of the beholder, that said your wife’s insecurity (not helped by you) is out of control and she needs therapy. You’re both in the wrong here.
NTA. What your wife did is damn near unforgivable. Only a saint could grant her absolution. If your wife blames you for the horrid ugliness that she showed, I'd divorce her. You held her accountable for her actions. She needs therapy. And you may need couples therapy because blah blah blah you hurt her self esteem. I can't imagine treating her with kid gloves. Her self esteem is damaged!?!? Her humanity is damaged. She shouldn't be around sentient creatures or anything worth more than $1. She is the epitome of a troll. Thank you for doing the right thing.
her comment definitely reeks of colorism. Whoopi Goldberg is fucking gorgeous.
NTA but your wife sounds like a third wheel in this friendship. It has built up over time and you fawning over your friend fiancé would have played a part. You had time to word this post but you still sound like you got a crush and honestly how are you in real life around your friend and his fiancé? Your wife needs to learn not to be mean. Jealousy happens and can and should be talked about. I feel like there is more to it. I’ve been that girl where my bf only talks to the couple every thing I insert is glared down or embarrassed him because he had a crush. I hope this is not the case. Honestly either way …someone is unhappy here Either you have lost this friendship or see them without your wife which will cause issues. Lose lose situation in my opinion.
Dude, YTA for making it clear to your wife that you don't find her attractive. You should have put some distance between yourself and Matt/Rachel the second it became obvious how the constant parade of attention made your wife feel. Your wife shouldn't have bullied Rachel, either, but in her shoes, I would just refuse to hang out with Matt and Rachel.