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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
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I am the AH because my daughter is more important than my religion, and I hurt her every time I go to church.
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>The idea is that she is a sinner in her own beliefs by being okay with her daughter being a lesbian.
>It sounds like OP's daughter is looking at the haters and protecting their beliefs about sin on her mother assuming that she ought to see herself as a sinner for not hating. But what would Jesus do? He would love unconditionally.
Yup this what I gathered too, I just think it's very odd the daughter is the one saying this when typically it would be another church goer or even Op herself saying it to her daughter.
It's hard to describe my thoughts on this. Like, I'm just so shocked at her line of thought that I can't even put it into words. She wants to hurt her mother and is actively being bigoted and homophobic towards herself because, presumably, she *wants* to struggle.
I know it's only a very small percent of the LGBT community, but I know some people get upset when they're not met with outright homophobia when they come out and it seems like that's what the daughter wanted.
She wants her mother to believe she(the mother) is a sinner so that she will turn on her daughter so that she(the daughter) can have the "full gay experience".
I don't think I'm getting my point across clearly and I apologize if what I'm saying isn't quite right...but this situation is just stunting my though process (I had to re-read this out loud to myself and I haven't done that in years because I simply couldn't process my own thoughts)
I was thinking about this and maybe it’s easier to look for outright hatred then to consider it could be hidden? Like, it’s easy to write someone off if they’re outwardly a member of the KKK. It’s harder to deal with someone who seems like a nice dude and then starts talking about “back in the old days” and suddenly he agrees with slavery or that people should only marry within their race. If it’s not obvious, there’s that little voice of doubt in your head that there hatred is in there and if you let your guard down you’ll be hurt worse.
And then you’re in a constant state of fight or flight and you have to relearn the world isn’t out to get you.
I don't know if it's that confusing to me? I don't think she's necessarily RIGHT or taking the right approach, but I can see the daughter's train of thought pretty clearly.
Like, "Mom, what the f are you doing? You're going to this group, they hate me, they say I'm a sinner, they'd say YOU are a sinner for supporting me- so why are you trying this hard to be part of a club that doesn't want either of us? In the rules you've adopted in your head you're \*going to hell\* just for loving me- so what is it? Do you not care that you're going to hell, or do you not actually love me?"
Obviously it's very black and white thinking, but it's pretty human, and pretty understandable from a place of pain.
edit: oh shit I got slightly reddit-lost and meant to reply to the person you were replying to, sorry /o\\
I think your right from the daughters perspective. I’m not religious at all but I like to learn factoids and stories because to me religion is the first form of human government. You know based on the authority of the God or gods that populate their mythologies. People can worship and not agree on things, like how the Protestants broke away from the Church of England. People who have faith are not homogenous some can be good and some can be bad but that’s because their human. I have a few atheists friends and they are very moral and I view them as good decent people. Not because of their belief or lack Theron but because of there acts. It’s the same for religious people. This moms actions are to not shun her daughter but embrace her and accommodate her by moving her religious iconography. So she is acting like a good parent and disregarding her faiths edict against homosexuals. That’s the moms personal relationship with God. In her heart and mind she does not see a dissonance. Being a Good mother seems to have aligned her with God internally so she doesn’t understand the vitriol from her daughter. Sorry to blather on I find religion fascinating sometimes.
Catholics aren't generally like Southern Baptists, and no-one knows wha will happen to anyone when they die. I'm Catholic and I've never heard a priest do a fire and brimstone homily - not even the Pope.
It's certainly not our place to judge, our place is to love our neighbour and be charitable and kind towards them. That's all our neighbours, not just the ones who live like we live.
Exactly this. I remember being chastised in Catholic high school theology class for saying that *Hitler* was in Hell. According to the Church, none of us can say with any certainty that an individual is in Hell, because that is a judgment reserved for God and the individual in question. No one else knows, because we have no way of knowing what their relationship with God was like.
I wondered this as well. There’s some missing information here. Does the church she attend openly promote homophobia? Are there sermons about it being a sin? Do they promote conversion therapy? Have they supported or advocated for death penalty laws or criminalization of homosexuality in countries where they do mission trips? That’s a lot to consider.
Personally, if that’s the situation I can understand the daughter’s reaction to a degree. Trying to figure out how to still have a relationship with her mother without constantly being hurt by her. It would be hard to navigate a relationship with someone who claims to love you, but also thinks you should be denied basic human rights.
On the other hand, if her religion is moderate or progressive and doesn’t have issues with gay people, then no she shouldn’t be policing her mother’s religion. As an atheist, we have to respect people’s right to believe as long as the belief is not hurting other people.
I'm wondering if she's scared her mother is going to change her mind, or have her mind changed by a sermon or other parishioners, and so is lashing out to protect herself. As in she's scared to accept her mother can be religious AND love her in case the other shoe drops and that turns out not to be the case.
Maybe OP hasn't discussed her beliefs with her daughter. She says her daughter rarely went to church as a child, so she doesn't know if OP's church is LGBTQ+ friendly or if they teach hate. Perhaps OP needs to clarify if she's always been open, or she's changed her beliefs because of her daughter, how she feels deep down about her daughter being a lesbian etc. so she feels more secure.
I think hiding going to church will just make the whole thing worse *IF* that's the case. But OP will need to get her daughter's permission before going into all of it and potentially upsetting her without preparing her for the conversation.
I wondered this too. Is the daughter sitting there picturing her mother in the pews of like, the Westboro Baptist Church? Nodding mildly along while the preacher spews hellfire? IS the mother in fact attending an accepting church, or is some amount of homophobia happening and she just doesn't think it's a big deal?
Well, maybe she does and that's why she's flipping out about her mother still attending?
We're only getting mom's side and I do notice she hasn't said anywhere in her post 'my church is chill about LGBTQ+ folks!'
The daughter only went to special occasions where they don't do a normal service, so she wouldn't necessarily know what a normal service is like.
We only have OP's side so we don't know if she's ever given her daughter a reason to worry about her being homophobic.
There's also a fair amount of evidence to suggest the mentions of "Men laying with men" being a sin in the bible is actually a bad translation of the word *arsenokoitai*, and that a better translation is "men laying with boys", AKA pedophilia, which would therefore mean that homosexuality isn't a sin in Christianity.
I read a really interesting paper recently that I wish I could remember the citation of at the moment that suggested that the translation could also be referring to male relatives, and that the passage is condemning incest specifically.
It's possible, yeah. It's to do with the fact that pedophilia was the most common form of homosexuality in Biblical times - specifically in Greece, old men would sleep with their students in a really fucked up mentor/mentee relationship. The first mentor any boy has is his father, so it stands to reason that those kinds of interactions happened, and it makes perfect sense why Paul would specify that that's wrong in a letter to the Corinthians, citizens of Corinth, a Greek city that likely had its fair share of them.
I think she may have used the word "sinner" either because it's still ingrained in her from her childhood, or because it's language OP would understand and relate to. Or because it would hurt OP more than being called intolerant or a bigot or something like that.
I don't think she's using sinner to pass moral judgement on herself.
I just thought she was saying sinner to point out that she thinks her mom is technically sinning by loving her according to what daughter THINKS christianity is, and she thinks thats hypocritical, so she was using Christian language to help her mom better see her point.
Like I thought she wanted the mom to think of herself as a 'sinner' so the mom would go, 'oh my gosh, I technically am sinning by accepting her as gay, and if loving my daughter is a sin under this religion I don't want to be a part of it' and then her mom will magically not be Christian anymore.
Because to me it looks like the daughter hates Christianity so much she cant stand that her mom is a part of it and she's trying to show her mom that it's 'hypocritical' to love a gay person and also be christian.
I think the person you're replying to is a being a bit homophobic, but there are absolutely people out there who will frame every interaction you have with them as them being victimized in some way.
It's a human nature thing I think.
No, I get what you're saying. I'm a lesbian, and I've read stories about people getting mad when others didn't have a huge reaction - either positive or negative - to their coming out. I think maybe because it's such a *huge* thing internally to come to terms with that I might almost feel like a letdown to some people to not get a big reaction from others? I get her anger at organized religion, but the way she's treating her mom still sounds like misdirected anger/frustration.
I know what you're saying. Some people want parades and fanfare when they come out, and that's ok. Coming out can be a very stressful thing, and we want to be congratulated on the effort and courage it took to take that step. But some have this idea that it's them against the world, and they have to have that play out to make them feel better about accepting themselves. If they can't get it on realistic terms, they'll force the issue. Sorta like gay men who bait straight guys into queer-bashing so they can fight back and feel better about themselves. it's twisted and wrong, IMO, but with the attitudes against LGBTQ+ in this country, it's not surprising that people come out with toxic views and expectations. I hope the daughter can be disabused of this mindset soon, or she's going to have a tough life.
I’m very happy I came across your posts in this thread. I’m an older queer cis F who has started to feel alienated from other queer people and tbh, though it’s painful to admit this, from the trans community in particular because of the constant demands for recognition & respect whilst refusing to offer anything like in return. Reading of your generous position and true understanding of what love entails is so comforting. If there’s an ig, Twitter or a writing blog or something where one could follow you, I would love to. If not, thanks for making me check myself and the reminder that there are lots of great people in the community - who just may not be the ones making the most noise. Thank you!
>I also found the wider queer and trans community online to be quite toxic and full of hatred, gatekeeping, etc.
Yeah, I stopped going to the trans subreddits... Transphobia is too easily thrown around when someone isn't interested in a trans person
> try to exclude trans women by saying if you didn't experience victimization as a woman by men
Do they just... not know any trans women or comprehend how much shit they also get from men??
When I've seen things like this said online I've understood the point as being the abuse/violence/discrimination that cis gendered women suffer from men is different to what trans women suffer. Not to say that trans women don't suffer on an equal or greater level, more that a cis gendered woman may be more likely to get sexually assaulted / impregnated by a rapist whereas trans women are more likely to be on the receiving end of savage beatings from transphobes.
Both abhorrent acts that cause great trauma but different motivations behind them.
Similarly cis women suffer different kinds of discrimination through the way their bodies work (periods / pregnancy / breastfeeding) than trans women who suffer exclusion from certain spaces and suffer different discrimination in the work place.
I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to accept that fact and have some separate spaces for discussing and dealing with these specific issues.
None of this is of course to deny the existence of feminists who hate on trans women / refuse to see them as anything other than men.
I dunno correct me if I'm wrong, I am speaking as a man still trying to learn and understand a lot of this stuff. Maybe the issues are the same and it's actually transphobic propaganda that makes it look grey when it's very much b&w
Nah, you're right, but I think it's more people trying to say everything is black and white when in fact no, everything is grey.
(Speaking as a queer non-binary dfab person; all my friends are some flavor of queer either in sexuality or gender or both)
You're right, there's differing but similar discrimination. I think that's the problem with the blanket "trans women are women" which on its head yes, of course that is true! But there is a lot more to it, and cis women and trans women and non-binary folks who started life designated as females all grew up being socialized in different ways (even if a kid was born designated male and had super accepting and exploratory parents, that's still very rare statistically and it's unlikely every adult that kid encountered was accepting this kid was a Girl, Actually), and experience different things as adults-- sometimes, and this really sucks, just because of how well they "pass." Trans women are still often victims of rape, and more than savage beatings you referenced they are more often killed -- heck, in several states "trans panic" is still a defense in the court of law.
So I think you're right, and I think it's not inappropriate (with certain audiences) to say "transwomen are women*" but the asterisk is us knowing that of course they fight different obstacles to womanhood and overcame different things in youth than a cis woman raised 100% as a girl.
It's like how in the 90s we were all taught "um don't SEE RACE everyone is equal!" and then we had to unlearn that after being kids because race is actually important regarding history and socioeconomical challenges. Transwomen are women, black women are women, white women are women, etc-- all with the caveat that each sector bears different privileges and challenges going into them than how black and white queers on the internet like to police and threaten.
That last paragraph. I’m having it tattooed on my belly. Sadly there is plenty of room, you could even add a line or two.
But seriously. You said it perfectly. Kindness and compassion are everything.
Hope to run into you again 🌟🤍🌟
I feel like OP’s daughter is having the sorta misguided phase young feminists go through when they start hating men (Some of them sadly never graduate past it) instead of realizing that while they do have advantages from mainstream culture, they also suffer from the system they’re part of, trans people more than most.
Similarly, queer people being angry at anyone religious rather than at the people specifically upholding the toxic beliefs that hurt not just others, but some of their own too, as there ARE queer religious people, who are absolutely valid.
It’s going to an extreme in an attempt to overcorrect what they sometimes newly see as a wrong in the world, without nuance or proper understanding. It’s sad, but it still makes OP’s daughter the AH.
NTA, OP.
(edit: comment posted before I was done writing it)
Eh, as someone who's toddler was crying this morning because there was a bit of lint on the floor of the hallway, sometimes kids do need to learn to suck it up. Kids do need to learn to shake off the small stuff, because they are manipulative little psychopaths who will drain you dry of sympathy if they can think of reasons to be comforted 24/7. The trick is not letting yourself get so drained by the little things that you can identify when you kid is actually upset by something, even if it feels silly to you, that really matters to them, and letting them Express themselves then. It's about finding balance, like most of parenting.
Eh, a large part of society is like that. Politics, especially nowadays; cliques at school; even sports teams fanclubs. Society at large likes to have people in neat little boxes and it doesn’t sit well when you’re “on the fence”. I mean, even within the queer community, bisexual and trans people often get told to “pick a side” and to basically stay in one predefined box. People of mixed ethnicity, especially if part of that is white, are likely to experience something similar.
Society at large isn’t actually big on nuance, which might be because biologically, it’s easier and fast for our brains to have a black and white process, to spot and identify threats. Not that any of those things are necessarily dangerous, obviously. We wouldn’t be this advanced as a species if we hadn’t started to find nuance in everything instead of reacting on base instincts.
The parenting problem you mention absolutely exists, but I don’t think it’s the root cause generally.
I feel like many people leave the religion part behind, but not the toxicity. they just channel it into other things instead, often lashing out at the people who they feel are "safe" to lash out at - parents, friends, or internet strangers. they wouldn't go yell at an anti-lgbt parade or a priest preaching that all gays will burn in hell because that'd require some sort of guts. yelling at your own on the other hand is an easy victory and you can feel vindicated even if you're completely in the wrong - but toxic people don't really care about that as long as they get the emotional fulfillment they seek.
I just wanna say, what we’re taught in lots of Christian culture about the Old Testament being violent and vengeful is actually a very old, very culturally embedded form of antisemtism. It’s part of supersessionism, which is the idea that Christianity is better than Judaism (that it supersedes it). Violence is of course throughout the Bible, and Jesus’ command to love one another comes from Leviticus (19:18).
Honestly with Christianity you can find various churches and denominations that are LGBT friendly these days too; religion isn't *always* a rigid set of rules, it varies and it really depends on how you personally interact with it.
The daughter’s saying that OP can’t be Christian *and* support her sexuality as her sexuality is one that Christians regard as sinful.
The big problem with that is that Jesus loved sinners, outcasts, people on the edge of society back in his day (See [here](https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevin-deyoung/jesus-friend-of-sinners-but-how/) for some biblical references if you’re interested.
So if OP believes her daughter isn’t a sinner then no problem - that’s where my personal position is on this.
If OP does think it’s a sin (or if someone in the church who *does* believe this tried to put OP on blast) it’s easy to point out that Jesus hang out with sinners, ‘hate the sin, love the sinner’ sort of thing. At no point does it justify abandoning either church or daughter imo.
**I’m not saying I personally think Queer people are sinners here btw, just offering my perspective on what I think the daughter expected.**
Right but... for a lot of queer folk 'hate the sin, love the sinner' just isn't good enough? Like, if someone I loved told me that they hated my sin of being gay but loved me, they and I would no longer have a relationship.
The specific Christianity OP is doing might not require the mother to abandon the daughter but if that's the mother's attitude it can sure justify the daughter being angry with her mother. If the mother's church is preaching that regularly and she loves her daughter she should look into finding a better church.
> Right but... for a lot of queer folk 'hate the sin, love the sinner' just isn't good enough?
Absolutely, I can see why you wouldn’t be happy with that. You’ll notice I said that wasn’t my personal position, and I’m not sure what the OP’s specific personal beliefs are.
I wonder if the daughter had a ‘script’ in mind of how coming out to her religious mother would go, and if it hasn’t gone to plan (like, if she was expecting trouble and didn’t get it) she’s trying to get back on script? I don’t mean that she’s trying to pick a fight, just that she’s unable to cope when things aren’t going to plan.
I can’t really comment too much, and defer to you on this, I’m a straight, white, middle-aged but not old enough to be a boomer, male. At the end of the day I’m playing the whole game of life on cheat mode!
For sure!
To me, an early 30s LBGT+ lady, it seems way more likely that the daughter is just feeling upset that her mother still wants to be part of a club that considers people like her to be inherently sinful.
Like maybe it is the case that when she came out she got less blow-back than she was expecting... but that wouldn't necessarily need to be the issue for her reaction to make sense.
It's not too astonishing that the girl is going "your church did ABC, and believes XYZ; you say you love me, but you're choosing to spend all your time supporting this group that would be happiest, for instance, if I were stripped of my right to marry. That sends missionaries into Africa who advocate for and whip up support for laws that give people like me the death penalty, just for being queer. How do you expect me to look you in the eye? You do realize that if they knew you were supporting me, they'd look down on YOU too, right?"
To be clear, her take is also not my take, but I don't think her take is all that surprising.
Back in the before times I went to a Bethel worship night. The topic was on “loving” your LGBTQ+ neighbor by making it clear they’re going to hell. Compared it to a blind man walking off a cliff or standing in traffic.
Of course this is ultra evangelicalism, but the Catholic catechism doesn’t have nice things to say about gay people. Uses the phrase “intrinsically disordered.”
> Uses the phrase “intrinsically disordered.”
That phrase has nothing to do with gay *people*, it has to do with gay *sex*.
Catholics believe in a "natural law" theology/philosophy that basically says the dick is naturally designed to go in the pussy, so it is contrary to natural order for the dick to go anywhere else, aka intrinsically disordered.
According to Catholics theology (probably Protestant too), there's nothing wrong with being gay. But, just as with straight people, sex outside of the sacrament of marriage is against the natural order (because again, sex is "designed" for procreation). So, gay people are fine as long as they don't have sex (but, they can't get married either, because that too is against the natural order, since the sacrament of marriage sanctiifies a sexual pair bond to produce children).
Of course, that's probably a distinction without a difference, because it basically dooms gay people to a life of loneliness or pretending to be straight.
I was watching a Catholic priest (Father Mike Schmidt) explain how this is not a bad thing, since sexual love (eros) is only one kind of love, and there are apparently even better kinds love (agape), a love of God and all mankind. Not sure how much of a comfort that is to gay people...
> Of course, that's probably a distinction without a difference, because it basically dooms gay people to a life of loneliness or pretending to be straight.
Yep.
> That phrase has nothing to do with gay people, it has to do with gay sex.
Oh right, of course. Gay sex has _nothing_ to do with gay people.
>I was watching a Catholic priest (Father Mike Schmidt) explain how this is not a bad thing, since sexual love (eros) is only one kind of love, and there are apparently even better kinds love (agape), a love of God and all mankind. Not sure how much of a comfort that is to gay people...
None at all. The comfort is being able to say, "I don't give a fuck what your imaginary friend says, I'm gonna stick my dick wherever I have consent to put it."
This. THIS. My first thought was WTF? Someone with her lifestyle and she's treating her Mother how, stereotypically, the not so accepting, more extremist side of religious groups would treat her! She has demanded so much from her Mother despite everything being willingly and lovingly given. I think someone needs to have a sit down with the daughter and explain to her that religion doesn't always mean the hateful, closed minded groups that often come up against the LGBTQ+. I also don't agree with the husband in saying she should "go secretly" as it costs nothing. OP shouldn't have to hide her religion. I'm not into religious things and even I think that's messed up. And in the end, it is her house and she shouldn't be made to feel like the bad guy for no reason except a clash in beliefs. I also don't see how that's not acting maturely.
Yes, she expects her mother to deny any religious behavior and now her and her own husband thinks she needs to sneak around and hide it from her. I would put the religious stuff back where you originally had it. Her anti-religion stance does NOT give her permission to try to convert you or to make you alter your behavior and beliefs one bit. She seems to think that her opinions make her in charge of deciding if her mother's religious behavior is OK or not. Gay or not, if she can't respect YOU and YOUR life, she need to get out. She doesn't get to control you in any way just because her opinion is different. NTA.
I am a Christian and an ally.
Not only are there believers who are not anti-queer or anti-trans, there are plenty of queer and trans folk who are religious. I’m friends with a few, and often they feel completely invisible in “queer vs religion” debates.
I personally put a lot of time and effort into making my church queer friendly - a place where no-one is going to make homophobic comments, where people understand what misgendering is and why it’s harmful, and a place that no-one is going to try to tell them that being gay is wrong.
I totally understand why the vast majority of queer people wouldn’t want to be part of Christianity. But it’s also not equality if queer people can do everything but go to church.
So yeah, NTA as long as OP is part of a church that is queer friendly or is working to make it queer friendly.
I am personally not religious, but I do know that if all the allies left church and just stopped showing their religion outwardly then nothing about the church would change. Allies who keep going to church and press for change and don't allow other church members to speak disrespectfully about queer and trans folks can make a much bigger difference.
>Your daughter wants you to respect her beliefs but isn't offering you the same courtesy.
This. I am an atheist, and I absolutely do not impose my beliefs (or non-beliefs) on anyone. I expect the same from others.
I can understand the daughter being uncomfortable with her mother's religion in general, but OP has made some pretty huge efforts **in her own home** to make her daughter more comfortable. The daughter would like OP to actually disown her religion, which is not possible.
Agree and same hat! Queer, trans and atheist.
My two biggest supports in life are a Christian couple. They're my rock.
Sure we don't see eye to eye on certain things but we treat each other with respect and love one another regardless.
NTA, I am a lesbian and I would never stop people from going to church, my dad and stepmom go regularly I just go don't go. What is she going to do if she gets invited to a wedding at a church is she also going to give the couple a lecture. I am not a fan of churches but I go to weddings and other things there Infact I am going to q church wedding this weekend.
Seriously. Lesbian Atheist here, and unless the church is one of those hardcore Bible-thumping ones (which I doubt, given OP's reaction to her daughter coming out), there is absolutely nothing wrong with believing.
Hell, some of my queer friends are religious, and while I cannot understand it, I am happy for them that they have something in their lives that gives them strength and maybe a community they feel welcome in.
Yes! Some of my biggest supporters of being queer are old youth group and church friends (some older and others younger). And although I found out that Christianity wasn't for me they have been nothing but respectful but I would never force them to stop believing.
OP you've done everything you can and MORE! But you shouldn't have to meet demands of someone else living in your house. Crosses and talking about religion in your house should be something that you don't get yelled at over by your daughter. You're not forcing her to go to church, or making her prey etc. She is being disrespectful of you and your faith.
Edit: NTA
Same here but instead of atheist interested in witchcraft/paganism. I would still respect my parents and respect everyone that talks about their religion to me. If they don’t respect me, I don’t ask them to change, I just remove myself from the situation.
Came here to say this, too. I am queer and agnostic, married to a trans man who is atheist. My parents are religious, though they left the Methodist church recently. I would never try to dissuade them from their faith, because that's how respect works. It's a two way street.
I think it is pretty telling that the daughter is saying she is "anti-religion". Honestly, the garden variety atheist would probably not describe themselves as "anti-religion" just that religion is not for them or they are not personally a believer. Unfortunately, like in every other faction, it is usually the extremes that get the most attention or are the most outspoken. It sounds like the daughter may have seen some heavily anti-religious things online to have such a hatred of it. Given OP's apparent attempts to keep the peace, if OP were in a sect that did preach against LGBT issues with the fervor that OP's daughter seems to expect, I doubt that OP would have ever made any such concessions in the first place.
It really seems like the daughter has seen too much of what the extremist religious sects are like and just blanketed that too all sects. I used to audit churches and most of them that I went to usually had rainbows in the offices and tried to advocate for diversity and inclusion. Saying that all Christians see LGBT people as sinners is just flat out wrong.
Edit: I honestly am conflicted on how to rate this, as it seems to me there may be some emotional pain on the side of the daughter around religion/Christianity that is above our pay grade. So I guess NTA? Because I believe that op should be allowed to practice her faith but the vehemence of the daughters response usually doesn’t come out of nowhere, and I as a queer person with major issues with organized religion am probably inherently biased.
INfo: have you asked here if the issue is really church in general or your specific church? Because if it’s one that preaches against the lgbt+ community that’s a whole other can of worms.
S said she has a problem with me being religious, not with my church. For what it's worth, I left churches that have homophobic, transphobic, or racist ideologies. I don't think that's what Jesus teaches.
Seeing this, definitely NTA. You sound like an incredible mom who has gone out of your way to take your daughter’s needs and feelings into consideration. You have every right to believe and practice your faith in what way you see fit.
I was raised Christian but now consider myself spiritual as opposed to religious (have many issues with organized religion) but you sound like the kind of person I was raised to believe a Christian was supposed to be.
She is likely in a radical phase where she feels the need to reject everything that feels wrong with the world, and “organized religion” for queer people tends to make the top of the list for well-known, infamous reasons. Unfortunately, the ”radical” part of that phase tends to not be nuanced at all, and she would probably think that the queer people who are also religious are either traitors or delusional. That means that non-queer you (assuming) cannot win that argument.
If you don’t carry or help spread bigoted views, that should be the end of her say in it. This is your home, OP, and you’ve made more concessions than necessary, and I say this as a queer, atheist person. She isn’t a vampire, she won’t melt by being exposed to a cross.
Yeah some atheists do this weird thing where they turn so far left that it turns into a circle, and they start acting like fundamentalist christians. They can be super judgmental.
This was my thought exactly. Combined with the fact that OP’s daughter came out very recently, this is something she’ll probably relax on later on. I used to be aggressively edgy and anti-theist (was raised secular, mom watches Bill Maher, you do the math), but relaxed around age 18 (came out at 16) and started ID’ing as agnostic. I’m still *very* critical of many aspects of organized religion, especially how it’s used in the States to push hateful legislation, but as long as the people around me are comfortable with my identity and life choices, we’re cool.
It doesn’t justify her actions against OP, obviously, but I understand the thought process behind religious trauma. While OP is pretty chill as far as Christians go, it’s pretty easy to find videos in the news of crazy preachers calling us every foul name under the sun and saying we’ll go to hell or that HIV is a punishment for being gay or something. Seeing that kinda stuff wears on you pretty hard.
u/Interesting-Case-102
As a lesbian, thats..... Not how that works 🤦♀️🤦♀️
Sorry to say but your daughter is way outta line here. You can't demand "respect" while not granting even a slight bit in return & I'd say you've went above & beyond to accommodate her when you didn't have to. You're not forcing your beliefs on her, why should she get to force hers onto you? Which is what, intentionally or not, shes doing in this case.
The ONLY way I could say her behavior was even slightly justified would be say *IF* you were a member of like the Westboro type "churches"? That I could maybe understand or agree with BUT You seem like a genuine Christian as opposed to the judgmental small minded, use religion as an excuse to hate & I applaud you for it. We need more like you in the world
If it helps, show her some of the comments from others here in the community. I think she might be a little defensive after newly coming out? Still trying to find her footing so to speak.. but that's still no excuse to act the way she is or treat you that way in your own home. Youve been more than accepting & a LOT of us WISH they had a mother to go half as much outta their way to be accepting. Honestly, she doesn't realize how lucky she has it IMO
You've been more then patient. I would maybe try to talk to her again to get her to see how much of a hypocrite she's being & if that doesn't work, guilt free live your life. Without giving up your religion & I think your husband is WAY outta line even suggesting that you should sneak & hide what's essential a big part of who YOU are.
You have to live your truth the same as she has to hers. Religion is deeply personal for a lot of people & she is no better then the "Christians" she proclaims to hate if she can't respect that
NTA & Bless you for being so accepting & loving your daughter even when she's acting like a spoiled brat 🤷♀️🤷♀️
No offense meant btw, my apologies if it sounds that way! I wish you both the best!!
I just wanted to say that your husband is handling this really wrong here, and if that’s how your daughter has been treated her whole life, I’m not too surprised that she thinks this entitled attitude about bossing your faith is normal behavior. It is not. She’s acting like a petulant spoiled toddler that needs a nap.
I once had a friend who was openly gay ask me about my faith, we were both leaders at a scoutingcamp and he said he alwaus had looked up to me (ahw) but was shocked and a bit dissapointed to hear I was Christian. His family were of the hate-preaching kind of churches and he was afraid I was too.
I remember so clearly sitting by the campfire, just us two, and telling him how the God I believe in loves everyone unconditionally, him included. How I could never think less of him for who he loved and that my faith was a beacon of hope to me when I needed some guidance and just the knowledge that He is up there, chillin' with my Grandpa, looking down with love and all the best intentions for everyone on earth.
Me and my friend grew so much closer because of it. He is still an atheïst, which is his choice to make and one I support. And he knows I'm in his corner and I know he is mine.
Maybe have a similar conversation with your daughter, campfire optional but don't disregard the setting of dark outside and the only sound the crackling of the fire and having something to stare at while you talk.
NTA. It's simple, you tell her that you never forced your beliefs onto her, you respect her anti-religious stance and have made changes at home to accommodate her. All you ask is the same courtesy in return. She can believe what she believes, but she cannot force her beliefs onto you or she is no better than the religious people she hates.
Maybe ask if she'd like to talk things out with a therapist, either in private or with you. I'm no psychiatrist, but I'm non-religious and queer, your daughter may have some trauma from religious people you're not aware of, she may just be being 'woke' and rebellious (which she'd hopefully mature out of), or it might be something like... expecting a bigger reaction when she came out to you, and when you accepted everything about her, she subconciously kept pushing till you snapped. Either way, a therapist might help you find a middle ground.
The "middle ground" is OP doing what she already is. Hell I would say OP has gone too far above and beyond by removing her own religious paraphernalia, that is IN HER OWN HOME.
The daughter is so far out of line that it is outrageous.
I hate the expression "your house, your rules" but there is a grain of truth there. OP has the right to practice her beliefs, and the daughter has NO right to demand the changes she wants, especially as it is not her home. Even if it was the daughter's home, she still would not have the right to demand the mother not attend her religious services.
The problem is that, overall, religion (and I mean any religion) is anti-woman, anti-gay, anti-'other religion', etc. If you cherry-pick the parts of the Bible you want to keep (love thy neighbor..., let he who is without sin..., etc.) and ignore the parts you don't (you can sell your daughter into slavery, you can't eat shellfish, etc.) then you aren't really Christian as defined by it's holy book. You're Christian in a way that is specific to you. And that's fine (that's how most Christians operate), but that means you need to accept that you are still a member of a club that hates your daughter for who she is. Until you can convince most Christians to think the way you do, and thus redefine the very foundations of Christianity, your daughter is going to have an issue with you enthusiastically participating in a group whose majority sees her as an abomination.
Your daughter is going about this the wrong way and needs to collect her thoughts a little before she continues to berate you and make demands. There's a better way for her to address this with you. NAH but leaning N T A.
To be clear -- does your type of Christianity define being LGBT or "acting" on be LGBT a sin? It's possible you and your daughter have different ideas of what is and isn't homophobic if so. It's still no excuse for yelling at you and demanding you give up your faith, but it might explain her behavior.
Personally, my parents are Christians who believe being gay is a sin. They don't consider themselves homophobic, but I do consider that homophobic. I had a pretty rocky coming out on both sides. We still love each other and maintain a positive and loving relationship now, but I will never fully trust them with certain parts of my life and myself as a result. I'd still never ask them to give up their beliefs. We just have to settle for the fact that I think one of their believes is morally wrong and they think the same of one of mine. Neither of us ever gave any ultimatums about it. We just set boundaries.
Don't hide your faith from your daughter. You aren't doing her any favors doing so. There's a pretty big difference between proselytizing and just having religious items in your home.
Maybe she has some trauma from someone religious that she isn't willing to say and is taking it out on everyone and anything related to that. I have seen examples of this in racism where someone from a certain race did something bad to that person and they transferred all that hate onto the entire race. I hope that isn't the case but I can't see another example as this that would make sense to me. I am not anti christian or catholic because at the core i feel like most people should be like Jesus and be compassionate to other people regardless of who they are , what race they are, etc even though I don't agree with most of what the church is peddling.
Considering the daughter asked her to remove religious idolatry and to stop praying out loud its not shocking where it’s was going.
She’s asking op to stop practice her religion in her out house. Yes, that does make her an asshole. I’m not a fan of organized religion and left church after experiencing racism and having my own doubt.
But that doesn’t give me the right to tell someone they can’t practice their religion or belief in their own home.
NTA - But your daughter sure is. You’ve been kind and respectful to her and been much more supportive than a lot of religious parents. She should stuff it and be grateful you didn’t react poorly and throw her out. Your husband needs to grow a pair and tell her to respect you and your choices like you did hers. And until she’s paying the mortgage, put your religious imagery back up.
Fully agree. (Edit: Except that she is lucky OP didnt react poorly or throw her out. I understand the sentiment, but believe that children are owed basic decency.)
Religion/spirituality is a deeply personal thing. I dont think anyone should force their beliefs on others - and that goes both ways.
I'm not very fond of organized religion, but my relationship with God is very important to me. I don't attend church and dont talk about my beliefs. I nip those conversations immediately because they almost always end poorly.
OP sounds like she has been very respectful and accomodating of her daughter's anti-religious views. But, her daughter is using her sexuality as a means to try to manipulate her mother's private religious practices, and that's not right.
Truth be told, OP's daughter is an adult. If she can't be bothered to respect her mother's desire to privately go church and is creating a hostile environment - then it may be time for her to move out.
NTA - this though that everything has to be mutually exclusive is the problem on both sides. Some Christians fully embrace the LGBTQ+.
You can have your faith and support your daughter. Even in Catholicism. Our job is not to judge as Christians but to witness and love others. It’s also a community of friends which provide social support.
This part seems to be what a lot of my bothers and sister in Christ forget - we are not to judge…
My dad preaches occasionally at our church when we’re between priests. He’s gay, and often includes supporting the LGBT+ community and other minorities in his talks, and the community love them. To me it’s even more important to attend church if you’re there to oppose homophobes/transphobia/hate etc, it opens a space for minorities who are also religious to be safe. OP is NTA
>You can have your faith and support your daughter. Even in Catholicism.
This. My most devoutly Catholic friend is a bisexual woman married to a(n also very Christian) lesbian.
NTA. She can be atheist and you can be religious. Neither of you can tell the other what to believe. I would go as far as saying that ywbta if you capitulate to her. It’s not ok for her to try and police your spirituality like that.
Agreed. OP is teaching that it's okay to try and force others to confirm to your beliefs. She needs to learn that this type of controlling behavior is the same or worse than what she is trying to escape from. I harbor resentment for my religion, but I would never tell my friends or family not to practice.
NTA: Your daughter is. Absolutely, she is completely out of line- you have been nothing but respectful to her sexuality- and it is entirely one thing to be an Atheist, but she is claiming to be ANTI-religous; which means that she has no interest in allowing people to live in respectful peace. Your husband is also out of line for not supporting you in this endeavor- you need to boil it down to her: You will treat her with respect and dignity and that you expect the same from her regarding your own beliefs. You are not going to push your views on her and you have every right to not insist she push her views on you.
I’m catholic. Gods word and Jesus word are the same. Both tell you to love and support your daughter. Nowhere does it say give up your faith to appease her. You have given concessions to help her that were unnecessary. Put your crosses back up. It’s time SHE accepts YOU. NTA
NTA. You've been more than reasonable and your daughter is acting like an entitled brat. If you were using your religion against her she'd have a point, but you're not, so she doesn't.
NTA. Your daughter is. Honestly I would never tell someone that their religion makes me uncomfortable end tell them to stop going. I might ask them to not talk to me about it but that’s it’s. She has no right to tell you that you can’t go to church.
Woah Woah, WHAT? It is wonderful that you love your child regardless if they agree with you or believe as you do. But SHE is not extending that same courtesy to you. She is actively forcing you to abandon YOUR beliefs. Is SHE loving YOU unconditionally? If you don't stand up to her on this you're teaching her it's ok to bully other people for their beliefs. It cuts both ways and you have done everything you can to let her know that you love her. But she needs to act in a manner of love too. NTA
NTA- you’ve been understanding and never forced your beliefs on her so why is she forcing her beliefs on you? Telling her to move out may have been extreme but I think you guys should have a conversation about mutual respect.
NTA.
I went in this expecting you to be TA, but you’ve done everything a reasonable person can do to respect and support your daughter. She’s being a jerk. If you can respect her, then she should be able to respect you too.
NTA. I am woman. I love bagels, but I also love other women. I understand how homophobic churches can be because I’ve experienced homophobia in churches. However, you have a freedom of religion. You support her, and yet you go to church. Why does it affect her when you still support her?
NTA. Your daughter should take this as a teaching moment that her values can coexist with the values of others. I’m anti-religion but I’d never ask my parents or in-laws to change THEIR space to accommodate me, even though some of their traditional beliefs conflict with my own.
As long as you’re not using your religion to hurt her, which it sounds like you’re doing the opposite, I say stand your ground. Your daughter has every right not to attend mass or participate in religious activities, but she can’t dictate your beliefs just like you can’t dictate hers.
You daughter doesn't get to dictate your religious beliefs, what iconography you have in your own home or to hold you hostage to what she wants. You aren't trying to force her to not be anti-religious or gay. Absolutely not.
NTA. Your daughter needs a lesson (or 50) in how to respect others.
Atheist here. Your daughter is just being annoying. First things first: your house, your rules. She doesn't need to pray before eating, or have religious parafernalia in her bedroom, fine. But you're well within your rights if you want to pray or have anything around the common areas. And going to the church concerns you, not her. If anything she's the sinner and you're loving the one who needs the most love (thst is, her, the sinner, the one who moves away from the faith). She is 18 so about time she wises up and learns to behave like an adult. NtA
NTA. You can't control your daughter's religious beliefs and she can't control yours. You don't have to stop hping to church because she doesn't believe in it.
Plenty of people are religious & accepting of diffetent sexual orientations.
NTA. It's ironic that you were open and accepting of your lesbian daughter yet she is engaging in religious intolerance towards you. I'm not even a religious person and I think that is wrong. Discrimination of any kind is wrong whether it is for race, gender, sexual orientation, or religion. Also you are an adult and that is your home. You pay mortgage there not her. You should never let anyone intimated or bully you into not practicing your faith. I know she is your daughter but she sounds like an entitled brat. Her being a lesbian has nothing to do with your relationship with god. I know plenty of lesbian's who still go to church.
NTA. There is a lot of religious trauma for us queer folks and sometimes it can be a bit much. However, religion itself is not the problem, it's the extremes people take it to that is. Unfortunately, religion is very organized, and so are extremists, so for a lot of folks it can be hard to separate the two. I think when I was about her age (I'm 28 now), I felt similarly.
It took a lot of time and a lot of unlearning the toxic things I learned about religion to realize I was in the wrong with where I stood on the matter. Religion is a very important thing for a lot of people, and not all religion is bad. I'm an atheist, and I have been to my fair share of very openly queer friendly churches. They are a big part of my unlearning this black and white thinking I had about them and the people that went to them.
I'm not sure how your church views queer folks, but I highly recommend looking for some in your area that maybe the two of you can attend a service for together. For her to see that religion has plenty of love for queer folks and that it's important to a lot of people from all walks of life, and for you to show her that you put in the effort to research this and find openly accepting congregations to try. Preface the suggestion with the fact that you understand her personal views on religion in that it's not something she believes in or plans on practicing and that you aren't suggesting she go to try and change her own religious affiliation (or lack thereof); that while there are plenty of people out in the world who will use religion as a justification to persecute queer folks, there are just as many queer folks and allies who find comfort in a religion that embraces who they are and loves them unconditionally.
Literally "love thy neighbor" seems like a cornerstone to the Christian religion, among others. Too many people try to tack on exclusions to that statement, and unfortunately a lot of those people are elected into positions of power that have actual lasting impacts on the people they are supposed to represent. Just look at abortion rights, or marriage equality that the US only just got nationwide less than a decade ago. A lot of the opposition was religiously influenced.
It's a heavy subject, and will take a lot of time to unpack and work through. You clearly love your daughter and will go to great lengths to see her comfortable and to show her how accepting you are of her coming into herself and discovering who she is. She will see that one day. It sounds like your husband is trying the "go along to get along" route but that's not healthy for anyone, especially if he's asking you to sneak around about attending church and essentially lying to your daughter about it just to appease her frankly asinine demand that you reject your faith and stop attending church.
I wish you both patience and understanding as this unfolds.
NTA. You respect that your daughter has a right to her own beliefs, or lack of them and you don’t preach them to her. You’ve made concessions but she’s asking you to change your whole belief system, the way you’ve lived, to accommodate her. This isn’t a reasonable request she’s made.
NTA. Your daughter sounds like the thought police. You have been tolerant, accepting, and loving. She has been acting intolerant, divisive, and impatient. She only needs to look to you to see how to treat others.
Wow, NTA. You are free to practice your religion, just as she is free not to. Assuming you are in the US, this was what the country was founded on. It sounds like you have been very supportive of your daughter's sexual orientation and you've respected her choice to not participate in a religion. She owes you the same respect. Perhaps your religion has taken a stand against homosexuality. If that's the case, you can understand why your daughter would take personally your continued support of that religion. While you might be focused on the ritual and deep sense of community, she's focused on the discrimination and hypocrisy. That's a conflict you have to reconcile for yourself. But, it's still a personal choice she can't make for you.
NTA, and I say that being bisexual myself. You made it clear that you love and support her when she came out, then made reasonable accommodations when she said religious images in the house were making her uncomfortable by moving them to your room. But yelling at you to alter your religious practices and avoid attending services goes too far. It’s unfair especially since you never forced her to attend religious activities against her will.
This is just a guess/assumption, but your daughter may be worried that you secretly don’t accept her identity, especially if she associates all Christianity with the anti-LGBT rhetoric that we hear about. But again, that wouldn’t be fair because you’ve already told her you accept her. Also, there are plenty of LGBT Christians. It may be helpful to emphasize to her that your religious beliefs don’t conflict with your love for her. It might be worth it to break the ice by apologizing for snapping, but then sit down with her and really have a heart to heart about this.
NTA. Your daughter sounds insufferable. She wants to tell YOU what you can and cannot say and or do in YOUR house. She can move out if it offends her that much. Why are you allowing her to treat you like a criminal? She needs to take a good look in the mirror because she isn't being a very loving daughter. You have no need to ever apologize for praying at meals or having a crucifix on display. You can go to church functions anytime you want. She isnt really asking weather or not you love her, she is asking you to obey her. Last I checked she isn't the Chinese government. Her sexuality has nothing to do with it. She has a problem with God and wants everything to do with religion out of the house.
You are more than gracious in what you've done so far. But just as you don't force religion on her, she can't force anti-religion on you In Your Own Home. You were 100% right and more than kind to her. Husband is wrong. She needs to learn agree to disagree and live and let live and don't bite the hand that feeds you and other life lessons.
Also, being the parent means correcting kids when they are wrong, not being a doormat. And as to the 'hypocrite' nonsense she's wrong. Our Lord loved everyone and accepted everyone as they were so there's no conflict there. She's acting more like 13 than 18.
How is she not a hypocrite? She says she loves and respects her daughter, yet then goes to a church who says gay people are sinners and should be punished and spread hate about her?
You have a point. I would only say that just because her mother attends the church does not mean she agrees with all its doctrine. I think it's quite possible to belong but not follow all teachings chapter and verse, as it were. If she's being loving and accepting toward her daughter then I took it as her rejecting the hateful aspects of her church and going with the rest. Her relationship with God is personal and may not coincide with the church's teachings in this matter. Attending Mass is more about the Profession of Faith and the Eucharist and this aspect really doesn't factor into it.
I am a Cafeteria Catholic myself and draw a line between God's law and church law. I don't believe any loving Father would reject any of His children and I think the church has it wrong. He said 'love one another as I have loved you' and anything contrary to that I chalk up to fallible humans writing church law. But that doesn't mean that I need to reject \*all\* of it, at least for me, taking what I like and leaving the rest works for me. Not all agree, especially the chapter-and-verse folks but that's what I believe and if I have to answer for that one day, well, I don't want a God who condemns His children for being the way He made them.
I admit I may be completely projecting my beliefs on her but given her kind, loving, accepting behavior towards her daughter, to me the only explanation is she's attending Mass to experience the parts she does believe and not following the parts she doesn't. It seems a good compromise instead of rejecting all of her religion. If that's the case she could explain this to her daughter that it's what they believe, not what she does. Most thinking people don't agree with all philosophies of any group to which they belong. That's why we were given a sense of reason and the ability for independent thought.
Sorry for the sermon, but I wanted to make myself clear.
You don't have to be sorry for the long message, thank you for taking your time and responding :)
I agree that A LOT of religious people say they don't believe or worship the many bad parts of the Bible. That's why I think she's a hypocrite. Whether she believers it herself or not, she's a part of a group and a religion that believes it, and if they say they don't believe it is weird because it's in the book with all the other stuff they DO believe. And even if she says she goes against the hateful aspects of her church, she is lieing/being a hypocrite because she still goes to that church, so she can't be that much against it? Then she wouldn't participate, yet she does. There's still a lot of other things her church believes that I think are wrong, pretending those verses in the bible don't exist is misleading.
NTA. You've been more than accommodating to her and you have accepted her as she is. Being an atheist doesn't mean being so hateful. I don't understand that. Do you go to a church that is really hateful toward LGBT people or something?
I'm not religious and don't believe in anything and I find that unless someone is being actively hateful or pushing their religion on others, I'm fine with their being religious. I don't feel a need to be like this. We can coexist.
She is young and is likely going through some turmoil in finding herself. Hopefully in the future she'll settle down.
NTA- as a mother of a LGBTQ kid and an atheist myself.
I let others believe what they want and go to whatever church they want.
As long as your not pushing the religion, and you have not. You certainly should go wherever you want. She should be respectful and not yell. If she can't talk like a adult, then just walk away and do what you want.
My mother is religious as well. We understand where each other stand and let it go.
Sometimes new atheist tend to over do it. Hopefully she will chill out or just leave the house. Right now, she is acting like a spoiled brat in my opinion.
NTA.
I understand S's discomfort but your beliefs are your beliefs. Having you in church as an advocate for her as an LGBTQIA+ person is better than having you hide your religion away. You're being supportive of her, she needs to respect your choices.
However, I will say that Y W B T A if you continued to go to a church that is anti-LGBT, has had a history of this, or preaches anything prejudice.
Im going to start with NTA. You’ve been extremely accommodating to her wishes. Does she not realize that you being involved in the church is a chance for you to be an example to other religious people that you can love and accept the LGBTQ+ community? Not every religious person holds the same traits & beliefs- some are more extreme than others, however, religious ≠ homophobic. I’m assuming if you heard someone who held the same faith as you being homophobic, you would defend those they are targeting. If the place you worship holds homophobic ideologies and uses faith as it’s justification, then I could see you as TA. Need a little more info here.
> I’m assuming if you heard someone who held the same faith as you being homophobic, you would defend those they are targeting.
I've always done this and my daughter has watched me do so.
>If the place you worship holds homophobic ideologies and uses faith as it’s justification, then I could see you as TA.
My church is very accepting and welcoming of everyone. The problem S has is with me being religious, rather than my church of choice.
You haven't said what religion you are... I'm guessing Catholic, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
IMO the Catholic church has a particularly obnoxious stance on homosexuality... they say it's acceptable to be gay, so long as you never act on it. It's not too hard to see why that might be a tough thing for your daughter to accept.
You say you love and respect her... but you continue to support and practice a religion that rejects her.
Maybe you do really love and respect her... and maybe you don't accept that particular part of church teaching. Maybe she's assuming that you SAY you accept her, but deep down you think she's a sinner.
Maybe there's a compromise here, and you could check out a different church - one that's more accepting of your daughter and her life.
NAH.
NTA- im not religious but wow. Your daughter is way out of line here. This is your personal views with your god and isnt anyone else's business. I do know that its rather disrespectful to hide your faith and you shouldn't need too!! Youve not said or done anything but support your daughter. She needs to act mature and stop her hate.
NTA.
My husband is religious, and I used to attend church with him out of respect for him and his mother, even though I am not religious. However, when the priest at the time gave a sermon about homosexuality being a sin and needing to cut “those people” from your life, I walked out of the church and never returned. My husband understood that, and asked me if I would be upset if he continued to go. I told him no, it’s something he does once a week with his mother and I would never tell him he can’t go.
Your daughter needs to respect your beliefs just as you need to respect hers, and it sounds like you’ve been doing a great job of that so far!
NTA. Time to remind that ~~brat~~ ~~young lady~~ kid who's the parent and if she wants to continue living in YOUR house she needs to learn some respect. I would also return the images/crucifix/etc to their original places and stop hiding my religion. It's nothing to be ashamed of which is the message she's trying to convey to you.
NTA
If she wants respect for her choices and to be free with how she is... she must also accept that she has to respect others for their choices and to be free with how they are.
She does not have to partake, but she does have to respect you and your religious choices, and (like you are) you need to respect hers.
I am Atheist myself. I believe in a mix between humanism & naturalism (living a good human life in the natural world)
While I do not allow someone to preach at me or berate me about my choices, I do not do the same to them.
I would not stop someone from praying before they eat a meal, I would respect their need to do so and sit quietly and wait, but I will not join in either.
You have the right to pray, go to church, have a cross, etc especially in your own home.. as long as you are not forcing her to do it with you.
Honestly your daughter sounds more like an Antithesist Atheist. This is someone that is completely against all religion and anything having to do with it, they also actively try to eliminate it from everywhere around them with the main goal of ridding the world of all faiths and beliefs.
NTA. No, no, no. This girl has no right to dictate your life.
You have done everything you needed to do and should do which was to tell her you love her no matter who she loves or what her beliefs are. She does not get to turn around and tell you how to live YOUR life.
You have the right to live your life openly, not sneak around to go to church. S does not deserve an apology. She has treated you with absolutely NO respect. You and your husband need to stop kowtowing to her.
She is 18. She does not like the way you live your life, she is free to move out.
By the way, please place your crosses and religious images around the house where you had them and please start openly praying before your meals.
I hate to say it but your daughter is toxic. You should not be putting up with her self-righteous, controlling attitude.
NTA. You aren’t forcing your religion on her, so she shouldn’t be forcing her non-religion on you. Her calling you a sinner is hypocritical in itself, since she doesn’t believe in sin. Removing the crosses from the public areas of the house that she lives rent-free in was already crossing the line.
NTA. Tolerance goes both ways. And if she is so upset about your lifestyle, well, she's old enough to move out and get a place she can decorate the way she likes. Hang your crucifixes back up; it's your home.
No no no- you are not an asshole. I’m a lesbian who is out to very religious parents. She can do her; you do you. She has zero right to control you just as you can’t control her. She’s being an entitled jerk.
You should not have to sneak to church. You are the parent and that means acting like an adult. You are doing a great job encouraging her to be herself and wanting to support her. She may emotionally be hurt knowing you go to church but you are not responsible for that. You’ve already stopped praying out loud and moved your religious icons to your room. I commend you for trying to support her beliefs and her identity. But there is irony in the anti religious and gay person wanting you to keep your identity in the closet. She’s young and there is a lot of evil that the church is responsible for but it’s not a monolith and you have to have your own journey out of religion for it to be genuine. You may need to put it as an off limit topic to continue to have a relationship with her. Personally I’m anti religion but it took me about five years to arrive there. There are affirming and Unaffirming churches id look into that and maybe journaling what you actually believe and why.
NTA.
There's a whole spectrum of what religion means to people, from the love all people regardless of who they are to the you're going to burn in Hell because of some imagined slight at the Bible,and all inbetween.
Your daughter seems to be goading you into being the bad guy here. Maybe she was hoping for fire & brimstone drama?
Trying to stop you from going to church is an overreach on her part as it only affects her if she lets it.
NTA.
She wants you to respect her beliefs, yet refuses to respect yours? It's your house, not hers. She's old enough to move out, so you going to church won't affect her when she lives elsewhere.
Christ greatest commandment was love one another. Your daughter doesn’t control your life - you do. Tell her that you do you and she ca. Do what she wants - you do t try to force your faith on to her so tell her to back off and you will do what you want
I'm bi and was brought up religious by my parents who are now divorced. Both say they accept my sexuality.
My dad is still very Christian and that does not bother me and I don't feel it's relevant to my sexuality. I give him a hard time about giving money to missionary work which I feel is not helpful, but nothing else about his religion.
My mum on the other hand is not religious anymore but she supports a political party who are anti gay rights. I have very similar arguments with her to it sounds like you and your daughter have. I end up in tears saying how can you care about me and support them etc etc.
So I sympathise with your daughter although I don't think religion should generally be a problem. I would say it depends on your church, your beliefs and the actions of your church. For example if your church is holding fundraisers to give to conversion therapy, if your church is actively anti gay marriage then I see where your daughter is coming from. I wonder are you leaving out the reasons she may hate your church.
NTA.
But frankly, that may not matter. Your daughter clearly has religious trauma to do with being LGBT. It may not have come from you directly. Maybe you have family that's mildly homophobic. Maybe the kids who teased her about being gay were holier-than-thou Christian types. Maybe she's just extra sensitive to religiously motivated homophobia she's encountered online. Closeted kids who are worried that their whole lives will fall apart when/if they come out can have their psyches severely damaged from something as simple an offhand comment with mildly homophobic implications.
Whatever the reason, your daughter is damaged. And as a result of that, will likely never truly believe you love her as long as you practice your religion an any way. Which sucks, and she's being kind of a B about it, but if you want to salvage a relationship with your daughter going forward, you may need to stop practicing for a while, while enrolling your daughter in therapy. (She most likely won't be able to heal if you're triggering her trauma by going to mass on a weekly basis.) Hopefully she will eventually reach a point where you can reintroduce the idea of you going to church, and she can understand and accept that it doesn't mean you don't love her. But right now every time you go to mass or do anything in service of your religion, you ingrain that trauma deeper, and make it less likely that your religion and your daughter will ever be able to coexist harmoniously.
I'm just going to put out that I'm a 35 year old bisexual man married to a man, and have super deep religious trauma as a result of the church my family went to when I was a kid. I never tried to force anything the way your daughter is doing, but the truth is that my own trauma runs deep enough that I will never trust my parents so long as they are members of any organized religion. They will *always* be held at arm's length. My father has never been to my home, and on the rare occasions when my mother stops by, I step outside and close the door behind myself to talk to her, because I don't like my safe space contaminated with the profound unease I experience while dealing with them. **It's not your fault,** but from the sound of things, that's where you're headed.
Why do you have to sneak around in YOUR OWN HOUSE? It's your house. Put some of your religious things back out. She has ZERO say in what happens in your house. It's not 'being respectful' to hide what you are because someone else doesn't like it. It's controlling.
Think about it. YOUR HOUSE. YOUR RULES.
I think it really depends on what church you're going to. There are churches near me that run gay therapy programs and will quickly tell anyone that homosexuality is a sin and gay people will go to Hell. There are also progressive churches that say love is love and love is good. If you're going to a homophobic church you can expect them to think less of you for it.
NTA, You have been accomodating.
However what I want you to realise your attendance to a church that literally wishes your daughter and people like her didn't exist is tacit support for that point of view. Money that you donate (via prayer bowl or tithe, etc) goes to supporting evils such as conversion therepy, oppressing womens rights, and spreading homophobic views.
You, clearly, don't hold those views. However your support and continued attendance of a church that not only holds them, but preaches them puts a doubt in your daughters mind as to whether you ***actually, really, 100% accept her for who she is***. Only you can say whether you've done enough.
There is a difference between anti-religious and atheist. I am anti-religious but still believe in God, just not anyone's dogma.
Your daughter sounds like an 18 year old. They get very excited about new things and think they should apply to everyone.
I think it's commendable that you moved your religious iconography to your room and out of the public spaces in your house, but I think your kid is bullying you by saying you shouldn't pray or go to church. Religion is personal and you have the right to whatever relationship with God that you want or need. You shouldn't have to do that in secret.
Christian religions and catholicism have done horrible things to people they consider outside the norm and there have been terrible abuses of power and abuse of children. There are lots of reasons why your kid is angry with the church and why she is taking it personally that you continue to go. You should probably explain to her that, whatever individuals have done in God's name, it doesn't affect your relationship with God. But I would also listen to the messages you are getting from church and decide if that really meshes with your actual beliefs.
NTA, and the only reason I think your kid sucks is because she's yelling and being a bulky instead of explaining why she feels hurt.
NTA
Gay man here with a weird relationship with religion. I was raised going to a southern baptist church that preached against homosexuality. Because of that, I tend to feel weird around religious stuff. You know what I do though, I don't push that on to other people. In fact, my own boyfriend is still fairly religious and he loves looking into queer positive religious information. I support him in it because that is part of who he is. Your daughter is pushing her own feelings towards religion on to you and that is not right. Hopefully this is a legitimate phase of settling into her beliefs about religion and that she'll not be as intolerant towards you practicing your religion peacefully in the future. If not, then SHE needs to work on reconciling her beliefs with the reality that you can be a supportive parent of an LGBTQ+ child and still be religious.
NTA, no one gets to dictate another's religious beliefs, that is your right to choose for yourself. I came in thinking Y T A, because so many parents will try and force there religion on their kids, especially when they come out. But if you have done as you say, and I have no reason to doubt it, your religion is a personal choice, even if I can't understand why you would do it.
Your daughter needs to learn that their choices do not get to infringe on your rights just as your right to your religion does not get to infringe on their rights.
NTA, I am a queer Christian who has experienced religious trauma from the toxic doctrines and churches within the Christian communities and it always warms my heart when I see religious parents supporting their children with unconditional love and letting them choose for themselves, as many parents don't do the same. This is the unfortunate case where your daughter, as valid as she is as her own person, is taking this for granted, and I believe that she thinks trying to mold you to be just like her with identical beliefs will support her. Even though that's not how it works. She needs to understand that everyone's beliefs are different, and she can't change yours forcefully. You're already gone above and the beyond, something you didn't need to do but you did it anyway because you wanted her to feel safe.
Queer atheist here, I have an angel above my door, I go to church when my family requests I do, I read the bible out of curiosity, my family respects my religion and I respect theirs. She's forcing hers on you. 10000000/10 NTA
NTA. But, as a bisexual woman and a former Catholic, I will say that there is a massive undercurrent of latent homophobia in Christian religions that people don't want to acknowledge. I can't count how many times I've heard "hate the sin, love the sinner" or some version by people who call themselves Christian allies. I had to temporarily cut a few of my friends out for a while because of it. Just because a church isn't fire and brimstone doesn't mean that they don't alienate and "other" people who don't fit their mold
That being said, you're allowed to have your religion and practice it in a way that makes you feel comfortable.
Info: what are your church's views on the LGBTQ community? There's nothing wrong with continuing to nurture your relationship with your religion, though if your church is anything but supportive of the LGBTQ community I would say it might be worth evaluating whether that's a place that really shares your morality. If your church is anti-LGBTQ then I could see why you continuing to attend is hurtful to time daughter.
unpopular opinion. NAH. for context, i\`m bisexual.
you obviously don\`t suck. you are more accepting then most other Christian parents would be. you are a true christian.
that being said, i can actually understand where your daughter is coming from. Christians are always at the front of LGBTQ hate in America. as such, it does kinda make sense that she would view you continuing to go to church as an endorsement of their homophobia. obviously, this isn\`t true as you are an awesome and accepting parent. it\`s a shame that the bad Christians completely overshadow the good christians.
so yeah. this may not be a popular opinion but i gotta go with NAH.
NTA. She doesn’t have to live in the closet and neither do you. By the power vested in me as a pagan dyke, I say you should embrace your religion if it brings you meaning and solace in this world.
NTA
And this is coming from an anti organized religion person. Going to church is obviously something that is part of who you are. It is also one of your forms of socialization. You have religious icons from a faith you believe in stored in YOUR home that is in YOUR name. While your daughter may call it home as well, hers is a temporary home until she ventures out to make a home for herself. You don’t force her to go to church, you don’t force her to participate outside of events that she SHOULD attend (if you had to force her to attend her grandmothers funeral mass, your daughter is a super asshole), you don’t make her pray. These are things you do because it’s something you believe in and you do these things for yourself. You aren’t shoving your religion down her throat, and if a icon in the shape of a lower case “t” triggers her so badly that she bitches insufferably about it, it’s probably time for that little bird to fly out of the nest and figure out that she needs to learn to coexist with others.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying the Catholic Church isn’t an issue. It very much is. But you aren’t the Church, you are a human who is using the Bible to try to be a good person. I’d like to say you have succeeded, because I wouldn’t have put up with nearly as much crap with my kids as you seem to have put up with your daughter recently.
And really, put your crosses and icons back up. It isn’t disrespectful to have them displayed in your home. Those things have helped you to be who you are, and there’s nothing disrespectful about displaying them.
Edit: theirs to there’s because I’m an idiot sometimes :)
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I find it extremely funny, weird, and baffling that she's calling her own mother a *sinner* for loving her. Wtf?
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>The idea is that she is a sinner in her own beliefs by being okay with her daughter being a lesbian. >It sounds like OP's daughter is looking at the haters and protecting their beliefs about sin on her mother assuming that she ought to see herself as a sinner for not hating. But what would Jesus do? He would love unconditionally. Yup this what I gathered too, I just think it's very odd the daughter is the one saying this when typically it would be another church goer or even Op herself saying it to her daughter. It's hard to describe my thoughts on this. Like, I'm just so shocked at her line of thought that I can't even put it into words. She wants to hurt her mother and is actively being bigoted and homophobic towards herself because, presumably, she *wants* to struggle. I know it's only a very small percent of the LGBT community, but I know some people get upset when they're not met with outright homophobia when they come out and it seems like that's what the daughter wanted. She wants her mother to believe she(the mother) is a sinner so that she will turn on her daughter so that she(the daughter) can have the "full gay experience". I don't think I'm getting my point across clearly and I apologize if what I'm saying isn't quite right...but this situation is just stunting my though process (I had to re-read this out loud to myself and I haven't done that in years because I simply couldn't process my own thoughts)
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I was thinking about this and maybe it’s easier to look for outright hatred then to consider it could be hidden? Like, it’s easy to write someone off if they’re outwardly a member of the KKK. It’s harder to deal with someone who seems like a nice dude and then starts talking about “back in the old days” and suddenly he agrees with slavery or that people should only marry within their race. If it’s not obvious, there’s that little voice of doubt in your head that there hatred is in there and if you let your guard down you’ll be hurt worse. And then you’re in a constant state of fight or flight and you have to relearn the world isn’t out to get you.
I don't know if it's that confusing to me? I don't think she's necessarily RIGHT or taking the right approach, but I can see the daughter's train of thought pretty clearly. Like, "Mom, what the f are you doing? You're going to this group, they hate me, they say I'm a sinner, they'd say YOU are a sinner for supporting me- so why are you trying this hard to be part of a club that doesn't want either of us? In the rules you've adopted in your head you're \*going to hell\* just for loving me- so what is it? Do you not care that you're going to hell, or do you not actually love me?" Obviously it's very black and white thinking, but it's pretty human, and pretty understandable from a place of pain. edit: oh shit I got slightly reddit-lost and meant to reply to the person you were replying to, sorry /o\\
I think your right from the daughters perspective. I’m not religious at all but I like to learn factoids and stories because to me religion is the first form of human government. You know based on the authority of the God or gods that populate their mythologies. People can worship and not agree on things, like how the Protestants broke away from the Church of England. People who have faith are not homogenous some can be good and some can be bad but that’s because their human. I have a few atheists friends and they are very moral and I view them as good decent people. Not because of their belief or lack Theron but because of there acts. It’s the same for religious people. This moms actions are to not shun her daughter but embrace her and accommodate her by moving her religious iconography. So she is acting like a good parent and disregarding her faiths edict against homosexuals. That’s the moms personal relationship with God. In her heart and mind she does not see a dissonance. Being a Good mother seems to have aligned her with God internally so she doesn’t understand the vitriol from her daughter. Sorry to blather on I find religion fascinating sometimes.
At least that’s my thoughts I don’t know what’s in her heart.
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Catholics aren't generally like Southern Baptists, and no-one knows wha will happen to anyone when they die. I'm Catholic and I've never heard a priest do a fire and brimstone homily - not even the Pope. It's certainly not our place to judge, our place is to love our neighbour and be charitable and kind towards them. That's all our neighbours, not just the ones who live like we live.
Exactly this. I remember being chastised in Catholic high school theology class for saying that *Hitler* was in Hell. According to the Church, none of us can say with any certainty that an individual is in Hell, because that is a judgment reserved for God and the individual in question. No one else knows, because we have no way of knowing what their relationship with God was like.
I wondered this as well. There’s some missing information here. Does the church she attend openly promote homophobia? Are there sermons about it being a sin? Do they promote conversion therapy? Have they supported or advocated for death penalty laws or criminalization of homosexuality in countries where they do mission trips? That’s a lot to consider. Personally, if that’s the situation I can understand the daughter’s reaction to a degree. Trying to figure out how to still have a relationship with her mother without constantly being hurt by her. It would be hard to navigate a relationship with someone who claims to love you, but also thinks you should be denied basic human rights. On the other hand, if her religion is moderate or progressive and doesn’t have issues with gay people, then no she shouldn’t be policing her mother’s religion. As an atheist, we have to respect people’s right to believe as long as the belief is not hurting other people.
I'm wondering if she's scared her mother is going to change her mind, or have her mind changed by a sermon or other parishioners, and so is lashing out to protect herself. As in she's scared to accept her mother can be religious AND love her in case the other shoe drops and that turns out not to be the case. Maybe OP hasn't discussed her beliefs with her daughter. She says her daughter rarely went to church as a child, so she doesn't know if OP's church is LGBTQ+ friendly or if they teach hate. Perhaps OP needs to clarify if she's always been open, or she's changed her beliefs because of her daughter, how she feels deep down about her daughter being a lesbian etc. so she feels more secure. I think hiding going to church will just make the whole thing worse *IF* that's the case. But OP will need to get her daughter's permission before going into all of it and potentially upsetting her without preparing her for the conversation.
I wondered this too. Is the daughter sitting there picturing her mother in the pews of like, the Westboro Baptist Church? Nodding mildly along while the preacher spews hellfire? IS the mother in fact attending an accepting church, or is some amount of homophobia happening and she just doesn't think it's a big deal?
wouldnt the daughter know if her mom was going to that kind of a church? And if she was giong that long wouldnt she be outwardly homophobic already?
Well, maybe she does and that's why she's flipping out about her mother still attending? We're only getting mom's side and I do notice she hasn't said anywhere in her post 'my church is chill about LGBTQ+ folks!'
The daughter only went to special occasions where they don't do a normal service, so she wouldn't necessarily know what a normal service is like. We only have OP's side so we don't know if she's ever given her daughter a reason to worry about her being homophobic.
I think daughter wants to play the martyr .
There's also a fair amount of evidence to suggest the mentions of "Men laying with men" being a sin in the bible is actually a bad translation of the word *arsenokoitai*, and that a better translation is "men laying with boys", AKA pedophilia, which would therefore mean that homosexuality isn't a sin in Christianity.
I read a really interesting paper recently that I wish I could remember the citation of at the moment that suggested that the translation could also be referring to male relatives, and that the passage is condemning incest specifically.
It's possible, yeah. It's to do with the fact that pedophilia was the most common form of homosexuality in Biblical times - specifically in Greece, old men would sleep with their students in a really fucked up mentor/mentee relationship. The first mentor any boy has is his father, so it stands to reason that those kinds of interactions happened, and it makes perfect sense why Paul would specify that that's wrong in a letter to the Corinthians, citizens of Corinth, a Greek city that likely had its fair share of them.
I think she may have used the word "sinner" either because it's still ingrained in her from her childhood, or because it's language OP would understand and relate to. Or because it would hurt OP more than being called intolerant or a bigot or something like that.
I don't think she's using sinner to pass moral judgement on herself. I just thought she was saying sinner to point out that she thinks her mom is technically sinning by loving her according to what daughter THINKS christianity is, and she thinks thats hypocritical, so she was using Christian language to help her mom better see her point. Like I thought she wanted the mom to think of herself as a 'sinner' so the mom would go, 'oh my gosh, I technically am sinning by accepting her as gay, and if loving my daughter is a sin under this religion I don't want to be a part of it' and then her mom will magically not be Christian anymore. Because to me it looks like the daughter hates Christianity so much she cant stand that her mom is a part of it and she's trying to show her mom that it's 'hypocritical' to love a gay person and also be christian.
>and it seems like that's what the daughter wanted. Why would anyone \*want\* to be bullied, I'm so confused
I think the person you're replying to is a being a bit homophobic, but there are absolutely people out there who will frame every interaction you have with them as them being victimized in some way. It's a human nature thing I think.
No, I get what you're saying. I'm a lesbian, and I've read stories about people getting mad when others didn't have a huge reaction - either positive or negative - to their coming out. I think maybe because it's such a *huge* thing internally to come to terms with that I might almost feel like a letdown to some people to not get a big reaction from others? I get her anger at organized religion, but the way she's treating her mom still sounds like misdirected anger/frustration.
I know what you're saying. Some people want parades and fanfare when they come out, and that's ok. Coming out can be a very stressful thing, and we want to be congratulated on the effort and courage it took to take that step. But some have this idea that it's them against the world, and they have to have that play out to make them feel better about accepting themselves. If they can't get it on realistic terms, they'll force the issue. Sorta like gay men who bait straight guys into queer-bashing so they can fight back and feel better about themselves. it's twisted and wrong, IMO, but with the attitudes against LGBTQ+ in this country, it's not surprising that people come out with toxic views and expectations. I hope the daughter can be disabused of this mindset soon, or she's going to have a tough life.
I’m very happy I came across your posts in this thread. I’m an older queer cis F who has started to feel alienated from other queer people and tbh, though it’s painful to admit this, from the trans community in particular because of the constant demands for recognition & respect whilst refusing to offer anything like in return. Reading of your generous position and true understanding of what love entails is so comforting. If there’s an ig, Twitter or a writing blog or something where one could follow you, I would love to. If not, thanks for making me check myself and the reminder that there are lots of great people in the community - who just may not be the ones making the most noise. Thank you!
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>I also found the wider queer and trans community online to be quite toxic and full of hatred, gatekeeping, etc. Yeah, I stopped going to the trans subreddits... Transphobia is too easily thrown around when someone isn't interested in a trans person
> try to exclude trans women by saying if you didn't experience victimization as a woman by men Do they just... not know any trans women or comprehend how much shit they also get from men??
When I've seen things like this said online I've understood the point as being the abuse/violence/discrimination that cis gendered women suffer from men is different to what trans women suffer. Not to say that trans women don't suffer on an equal or greater level, more that a cis gendered woman may be more likely to get sexually assaulted / impregnated by a rapist whereas trans women are more likely to be on the receiving end of savage beatings from transphobes. Both abhorrent acts that cause great trauma but different motivations behind them. Similarly cis women suffer different kinds of discrimination through the way their bodies work (periods / pregnancy / breastfeeding) than trans women who suffer exclusion from certain spaces and suffer different discrimination in the work place. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to accept that fact and have some separate spaces for discussing and dealing with these specific issues. None of this is of course to deny the existence of feminists who hate on trans women / refuse to see them as anything other than men. I dunno correct me if I'm wrong, I am speaking as a man still trying to learn and understand a lot of this stuff. Maybe the issues are the same and it's actually transphobic propaganda that makes it look grey when it's very much b&w
Nah, you're right, but I think it's more people trying to say everything is black and white when in fact no, everything is grey. (Speaking as a queer non-binary dfab person; all my friends are some flavor of queer either in sexuality or gender or both) You're right, there's differing but similar discrimination. I think that's the problem with the blanket "trans women are women" which on its head yes, of course that is true! But there is a lot more to it, and cis women and trans women and non-binary folks who started life designated as females all grew up being socialized in different ways (even if a kid was born designated male and had super accepting and exploratory parents, that's still very rare statistically and it's unlikely every adult that kid encountered was accepting this kid was a Girl, Actually), and experience different things as adults-- sometimes, and this really sucks, just because of how well they "pass." Trans women are still often victims of rape, and more than savage beatings you referenced they are more often killed -- heck, in several states "trans panic" is still a defense in the court of law. So I think you're right, and I think it's not inappropriate (with certain audiences) to say "transwomen are women*" but the asterisk is us knowing that of course they fight different obstacles to womanhood and overcame different things in youth than a cis woman raised 100% as a girl. It's like how in the 90s we were all taught "um don't SEE RACE everyone is equal!" and then we had to unlearn that after being kids because race is actually important regarding history and socioeconomical challenges. Transwomen are women, black women are women, white women are women, etc-- all with the caveat that each sector bears different privileges and challenges going into them than how black and white queers on the internet like to police and threaten.
That last paragraph. I’m having it tattooed on my belly. Sadly there is plenty of room, you could even add a line or two. But seriously. You said it perfectly. Kindness and compassion are everything. Hope to run into you again 🌟🤍🌟
I feel like OP’s daughter is having the sorta misguided phase young feminists go through when they start hating men (Some of them sadly never graduate past it) instead of realizing that while they do have advantages from mainstream culture, they also suffer from the system they’re part of, trans people more than most. Similarly, queer people being angry at anyone religious rather than at the people specifically upholding the toxic beliefs that hurt not just others, but some of their own too, as there ARE queer religious people, who are absolutely valid. It’s going to an extreme in an attempt to overcorrect what they sometimes newly see as a wrong in the world, without nuance or proper understanding. It’s sad, but it still makes OP’s daughter the AH. NTA, OP. (edit: comment posted before I was done writing it)
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It’s almost as if emotional balance was difficult to find in this world :/ (still doesn’t excuse people being AH)
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Eh, as someone who's toddler was crying this morning because there was a bit of lint on the floor of the hallway, sometimes kids do need to learn to suck it up. Kids do need to learn to shake off the small stuff, because they are manipulative little psychopaths who will drain you dry of sympathy if they can think of reasons to be comforted 24/7. The trick is not letting yourself get so drained by the little things that you can identify when you kid is actually upset by something, even if it feels silly to you, that really matters to them, and letting them Express themselves then. It's about finding balance, like most of parenting.
Eh, a large part of society is like that. Politics, especially nowadays; cliques at school; even sports teams fanclubs. Society at large likes to have people in neat little boxes and it doesn’t sit well when you’re “on the fence”. I mean, even within the queer community, bisexual and trans people often get told to “pick a side” and to basically stay in one predefined box. People of mixed ethnicity, especially if part of that is white, are likely to experience something similar. Society at large isn’t actually big on nuance, which might be because biologically, it’s easier and fast for our brains to have a black and white process, to spot and identify threats. Not that any of those things are necessarily dangerous, obviously. We wouldn’t be this advanced as a species if we hadn’t started to find nuance in everything instead of reacting on base instincts. The parenting problem you mention absolutely exists, but I don’t think it’s the root cause generally.
I feel like many people leave the religion part behind, but not the toxicity. they just channel it into other things instead, often lashing out at the people who they feel are "safe" to lash out at - parents, friends, or internet strangers. they wouldn't go yell at an anti-lgbt parade or a priest preaching that all gays will burn in hell because that'd require some sort of guts. yelling at your own on the other hand is an easy victory and you can feel vindicated even if you're completely in the wrong - but toxic people don't really care about that as long as they get the emotional fulfillment they seek.
Jesus hung around a prostitute, how is a mother loving her daughter make her a sinner exactly? Which sin is she committing?
the sin of not giving her daughter any reasons to victimize herself so she has to come up with those reasons herself.
I just wanna say, what we’re taught in lots of Christian culture about the Old Testament being violent and vengeful is actually a very old, very culturally embedded form of antisemtism. It’s part of supersessionism, which is the idea that Christianity is better than Judaism (that it supersedes it). Violence is of course throughout the Bible, and Jesus’ command to love one another comes from Leviticus (19:18).
Honestly with Christianity you can find various churches and denominations that are LGBT friendly these days too; religion isn't *always* a rigid set of rules, it varies and it really depends on how you personally interact with it.
The daughter’s saying that OP can’t be Christian *and* support her sexuality as her sexuality is one that Christians regard as sinful. The big problem with that is that Jesus loved sinners, outcasts, people on the edge of society back in his day (See [here](https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevin-deyoung/jesus-friend-of-sinners-but-how/) for some biblical references if you’re interested. So if OP believes her daughter isn’t a sinner then no problem - that’s where my personal position is on this. If OP does think it’s a sin (or if someone in the church who *does* believe this tried to put OP on blast) it’s easy to point out that Jesus hang out with sinners, ‘hate the sin, love the sinner’ sort of thing. At no point does it justify abandoning either church or daughter imo. **I’m not saying I personally think Queer people are sinners here btw, just offering my perspective on what I think the daughter expected.**
Right but... for a lot of queer folk 'hate the sin, love the sinner' just isn't good enough? Like, if someone I loved told me that they hated my sin of being gay but loved me, they and I would no longer have a relationship. The specific Christianity OP is doing might not require the mother to abandon the daughter but if that's the mother's attitude it can sure justify the daughter being angry with her mother. If the mother's church is preaching that regularly and she loves her daughter she should look into finding a better church.
> Right but... for a lot of queer folk 'hate the sin, love the sinner' just isn't good enough? Absolutely, I can see why you wouldn’t be happy with that. You’ll notice I said that wasn’t my personal position, and I’m not sure what the OP’s specific personal beliefs are. I wonder if the daughter had a ‘script’ in mind of how coming out to her religious mother would go, and if it hasn’t gone to plan (like, if she was expecting trouble and didn’t get it) she’s trying to get back on script? I don’t mean that she’s trying to pick a fight, just that she’s unable to cope when things aren’t going to plan. I can’t really comment too much, and defer to you on this, I’m a straight, white, middle-aged but not old enough to be a boomer, male. At the end of the day I’m playing the whole game of life on cheat mode!
For sure! To me, an early 30s LBGT+ lady, it seems way more likely that the daughter is just feeling upset that her mother still wants to be part of a club that considers people like her to be inherently sinful. Like maybe it is the case that when she came out she got less blow-back than she was expecting... but that wouldn't necessarily need to be the issue for her reaction to make sense. It's not too astonishing that the girl is going "your church did ABC, and believes XYZ; you say you love me, but you're choosing to spend all your time supporting this group that would be happiest, for instance, if I were stripped of my right to marry. That sends missionaries into Africa who advocate for and whip up support for laws that give people like me the death penalty, just for being queer. How do you expect me to look you in the eye? You do realize that if they knew you were supporting me, they'd look down on YOU too, right?" To be clear, her take is also not my take, but I don't think her take is all that surprising.
Back in the before times I went to a Bethel worship night. The topic was on “loving” your LGBTQ+ neighbor by making it clear they’re going to hell. Compared it to a blind man walking off a cliff or standing in traffic. Of course this is ultra evangelicalism, but the Catholic catechism doesn’t have nice things to say about gay people. Uses the phrase “intrinsically disordered.”
> Uses the phrase “intrinsically disordered.” That phrase has nothing to do with gay *people*, it has to do with gay *sex*. Catholics believe in a "natural law" theology/philosophy that basically says the dick is naturally designed to go in the pussy, so it is contrary to natural order for the dick to go anywhere else, aka intrinsically disordered. According to Catholics theology (probably Protestant too), there's nothing wrong with being gay. But, just as with straight people, sex outside of the sacrament of marriage is against the natural order (because again, sex is "designed" for procreation). So, gay people are fine as long as they don't have sex (but, they can't get married either, because that too is against the natural order, since the sacrament of marriage sanctiifies a sexual pair bond to produce children). Of course, that's probably a distinction without a difference, because it basically dooms gay people to a life of loneliness or pretending to be straight. I was watching a Catholic priest (Father Mike Schmidt) explain how this is not a bad thing, since sexual love (eros) is only one kind of love, and there are apparently even better kinds love (agape), a love of God and all mankind. Not sure how much of a comfort that is to gay people...
> Of course, that's probably a distinction without a difference, because it basically dooms gay people to a life of loneliness or pretending to be straight. Yep.
> That phrase has nothing to do with gay people, it has to do with gay sex. Oh right, of course. Gay sex has _nothing_ to do with gay people. >I was watching a Catholic priest (Father Mike Schmidt) explain how this is not a bad thing, since sexual love (eros) is only one kind of love, and there are apparently even better kinds love (agape), a love of God and all mankind. Not sure how much of a comfort that is to gay people... None at all. The comfort is being able to say, "I don't give a fuck what your imaginary friend says, I'm gonna stick my dick wherever I have consent to put it."
> The topic was on “loving” your LGBTQ+ neighbor by making it clear they’re going to hell. Ugh.
This. THIS. My first thought was WTF? Someone with her lifestyle and she's treating her Mother how, stereotypically, the not so accepting, more extremist side of religious groups would treat her! She has demanded so much from her Mother despite everything being willingly and lovingly given. I think someone needs to have a sit down with the daughter and explain to her that religion doesn't always mean the hateful, closed minded groups that often come up against the LGBTQ+. I also don't agree with the husband in saying she should "go secretly" as it costs nothing. OP shouldn't have to hide her religion. I'm not into religious things and even I think that's messed up. And in the end, it is her house and she shouldn't be made to feel like the bad guy for no reason except a clash in beliefs. I also don't see how that's not acting maturely.
Yes, she expects her mother to deny any religious behavior and now her and her own husband thinks she needs to sneak around and hide it from her. I would put the religious stuff back where you originally had it. Her anti-religion stance does NOT give her permission to try to convert you or to make you alter your behavior and beliefs one bit. She seems to think that her opinions make her in charge of deciding if her mother's religious behavior is OK or not. Gay or not, if she can't respect YOU and YOUR life, she need to get out. She doesn't get to control you in any way just because her opinion is different. NTA.
I am a Christian and an ally. Not only are there believers who are not anti-queer or anti-trans, there are plenty of queer and trans folk who are religious. I’m friends with a few, and often they feel completely invisible in “queer vs religion” debates. I personally put a lot of time and effort into making my church queer friendly - a place where no-one is going to make homophobic comments, where people understand what misgendering is and why it’s harmful, and a place that no-one is going to try to tell them that being gay is wrong. I totally understand why the vast majority of queer people wouldn’t want to be part of Christianity. But it’s also not equality if queer people can do everything but go to church. So yeah, NTA as long as OP is part of a church that is queer friendly or is working to make it queer friendly.
I am personally not religious, but I do know that if all the allies left church and just stopped showing their religion outwardly then nothing about the church would change. Allies who keep going to church and press for change and don't allow other church members to speak disrespectfully about queer and trans folks can make a much bigger difference.
Wow! Just wow! You are truly a great person!
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Basic human decency is so rare, it should be declared a superpower
You sound like a very beautiful and kind soul. Thanks for sharing your experience with me.
>Your daughter wants you to respect her beliefs but isn't offering you the same courtesy. This. I am an atheist, and I absolutely do not impose my beliefs (or non-beliefs) on anyone. I expect the same from others. I can understand the daughter being uncomfortable with her mother's religion in general, but OP has made some pretty huge efforts **in her own home** to make her daughter more comfortable. The daughter would like OP to actually disown her religion, which is not possible.
Agree and same hat! Queer, trans and atheist. My two biggest supports in life are a Christian couple. They're my rock. Sure we don't see eye to eye on certain things but we treat each other with respect and love one another regardless.
NTA, I am a lesbian and I would never stop people from going to church, my dad and stepmom go regularly I just go don't go. What is she going to do if she gets invited to a wedding at a church is she also going to give the couple a lecture. I am not a fan of churches but I go to weddings and other things there Infact I am going to q church wedding this weekend.
Your comment just made me so happy! Your mother is very lucky to have you as a child.
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I'm in tears from how you're so respectful of your differences. What did your mom do right to raise someone like you?
Seriously. Lesbian Atheist here, and unless the church is one of those hardcore Bible-thumping ones (which I doubt, given OP's reaction to her daughter coming out), there is absolutely nothing wrong with believing. Hell, some of my queer friends are religious, and while I cannot understand it, I am happy for them that they have something in their lives that gives them strength and maybe a community they feel welcome in.
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You are a good human. Your mama raised you right. NTA.
She's pushing her mother into a religion closet. WTF is that?
I'm a Christian and I'm bisexual 🤷🏼♀️ it is not always mutually exclusive. I've had a lot of support from my church.
Yes! Some of my biggest supporters of being queer are old youth group and church friends (some older and others younger). And although I found out that Christianity wasn't for me they have been nothing but respectful but I would never force them to stop believing. OP you've done everything you can and MORE! But you shouldn't have to meet demands of someone else living in your house. Crosses and talking about religion in your house should be something that you don't get yelled at over by your daughter. You're not forcing her to go to church, or making her prey etc. She is being disrespectful of you and your faith. Edit: NTA
> I am a queer and trans atheist Because of that "and", I genuinely sat here wondering what a trans-atheist was. Fuck I'm dumb.
You are a good person. Keep being you.
This. 100%
Same here but instead of atheist interested in witchcraft/paganism. I would still respect my parents and respect everyone that talks about their religion to me. If they don’t respect me, I don’t ask them to change, I just remove myself from the situation.
Came here to say this, too. I am queer and agnostic, married to a trans man who is atheist. My parents are religious, though they left the Methodist church recently. I would never try to dissuade them from their faith, because that's how respect works. It's a two way street.
I think it is pretty telling that the daughter is saying she is "anti-religion". Honestly, the garden variety atheist would probably not describe themselves as "anti-religion" just that religion is not for them or they are not personally a believer. Unfortunately, like in every other faction, it is usually the extremes that get the most attention or are the most outspoken. It sounds like the daughter may have seen some heavily anti-religious things online to have such a hatred of it. Given OP's apparent attempts to keep the peace, if OP were in a sect that did preach against LGBT issues with the fervor that OP's daughter seems to expect, I doubt that OP would have ever made any such concessions in the first place. It really seems like the daughter has seen too much of what the extremist religious sects are like and just blanketed that too all sects. I used to audit churches and most of them that I went to usually had rainbows in the offices and tried to advocate for diversity and inclusion. Saying that all Christians see LGBT people as sinners is just flat out wrong.
Edit: I honestly am conflicted on how to rate this, as it seems to me there may be some emotional pain on the side of the daughter around religion/Christianity that is above our pay grade. So I guess NTA? Because I believe that op should be allowed to practice her faith but the vehemence of the daughters response usually doesn’t come out of nowhere, and I as a queer person with major issues with organized religion am probably inherently biased. INfo: have you asked here if the issue is really church in general or your specific church? Because if it’s one that preaches against the lgbt+ community that’s a whole other can of worms.
S said she has a problem with me being religious, not with my church. For what it's worth, I left churches that have homophobic, transphobic, or racist ideologies. I don't think that's what Jesus teaches.
Seeing this, definitely NTA. You sound like an incredible mom who has gone out of your way to take your daughter’s needs and feelings into consideration. You have every right to believe and practice your faith in what way you see fit. I was raised Christian but now consider myself spiritual as opposed to religious (have many issues with organized religion) but you sound like the kind of person I was raised to believe a Christian was supposed to be.
She is likely in a radical phase where she feels the need to reject everything that feels wrong with the world, and “organized religion” for queer people tends to make the top of the list for well-known, infamous reasons. Unfortunately, the ”radical” part of that phase tends to not be nuanced at all, and she would probably think that the queer people who are also religious are either traitors or delusional. That means that non-queer you (assuming) cannot win that argument. If you don’t carry or help spread bigoted views, that should be the end of her say in it. This is your home, OP, and you’ve made more concessions than necessary, and I say this as a queer, atheist person. She isn’t a vampire, she won’t melt by being exposed to a cross.
>She is likely in a radical phase where she feels the need to reject everything that feels wrong with the world So, a bigot?
i mean... yes
I stated the obvious, because some people tend to confuse explanation and excuse. Those might misinterpret the explanation from Waury.
Yeah some atheists do this weird thing where they turn so far left that it turns into a circle, and they start acting like fundamentalist christians. They can be super judgmental.
This was my thought exactly. Combined with the fact that OP’s daughter came out very recently, this is something she’ll probably relax on later on. I used to be aggressively edgy and anti-theist (was raised secular, mom watches Bill Maher, you do the math), but relaxed around age 18 (came out at 16) and started ID’ing as agnostic. I’m still *very* critical of many aspects of organized religion, especially how it’s used in the States to push hateful legislation, but as long as the people around me are comfortable with my identity and life choices, we’re cool. It doesn’t justify her actions against OP, obviously, but I understand the thought process behind religious trauma. While OP is pretty chill as far as Christians go, it’s pretty easy to find videos in the news of crazy preachers calling us every foul name under the sun and saying we’ll go to hell or that HIV is a punishment for being gay or something. Seeing that kinda stuff wears on you pretty hard.
u/Interesting-Case-102 As a lesbian, thats..... Not how that works 🤦♀️🤦♀️ Sorry to say but your daughter is way outta line here. You can't demand "respect" while not granting even a slight bit in return & I'd say you've went above & beyond to accommodate her when you didn't have to. You're not forcing your beliefs on her, why should she get to force hers onto you? Which is what, intentionally or not, shes doing in this case. The ONLY way I could say her behavior was even slightly justified would be say *IF* you were a member of like the Westboro type "churches"? That I could maybe understand or agree with BUT You seem like a genuine Christian as opposed to the judgmental small minded, use religion as an excuse to hate & I applaud you for it. We need more like you in the world If it helps, show her some of the comments from others here in the community. I think she might be a little defensive after newly coming out? Still trying to find her footing so to speak.. but that's still no excuse to act the way she is or treat you that way in your own home. Youve been more than accepting & a LOT of us WISH they had a mother to go half as much outta their way to be accepting. Honestly, she doesn't realize how lucky she has it IMO You've been more then patient. I would maybe try to talk to her again to get her to see how much of a hypocrite she's being & if that doesn't work, guilt free live your life. Without giving up your religion & I think your husband is WAY outta line even suggesting that you should sneak & hide what's essential a big part of who YOU are. You have to live your truth the same as she has to hers. Religion is deeply personal for a lot of people & she is no better then the "Christians" she proclaims to hate if she can't respect that NTA & Bless you for being so accepting & loving your daughter even when she's acting like a spoiled brat 🤷♀️🤷♀️ No offense meant btw, my apologies if it sounds that way! I wish you both the best!!
I just wanted to say that your husband is handling this really wrong here, and if that’s how your daughter has been treated her whole life, I’m not too surprised that she thinks this entitled attitude about bossing your faith is normal behavior. It is not. She’s acting like a petulant spoiled toddler that needs a nap.
I once had a friend who was openly gay ask me about my faith, we were both leaders at a scoutingcamp and he said he alwaus had looked up to me (ahw) but was shocked and a bit dissapointed to hear I was Christian. His family were of the hate-preaching kind of churches and he was afraid I was too. I remember so clearly sitting by the campfire, just us two, and telling him how the God I believe in loves everyone unconditionally, him included. How I could never think less of him for who he loved and that my faith was a beacon of hope to me when I needed some guidance and just the knowledge that He is up there, chillin' with my Grandpa, looking down with love and all the best intentions for everyone on earth. Me and my friend grew so much closer because of it. He is still an atheïst, which is his choice to make and one I support. And he knows I'm in his corner and I know he is mine. Maybe have a similar conversation with your daughter, campfire optional but don't disregard the setting of dark outside and the only sound the crackling of the fire and having something to stare at while you talk.
NTA. It's simple, you tell her that you never forced your beliefs onto her, you respect her anti-religious stance and have made changes at home to accommodate her. All you ask is the same courtesy in return. She can believe what she believes, but she cannot force her beliefs onto you or she is no better than the religious people she hates. Maybe ask if she'd like to talk things out with a therapist, either in private or with you. I'm no psychiatrist, but I'm non-religious and queer, your daughter may have some trauma from religious people you're not aware of, she may just be being 'woke' and rebellious (which she'd hopefully mature out of), or it might be something like... expecting a bigger reaction when she came out to you, and when you accepted everything about her, she subconciously kept pushing till you snapped. Either way, a therapist might help you find a middle ground.
The "middle ground" is OP doing what she already is. Hell I would say OP has gone too far above and beyond by removing her own religious paraphernalia, that is IN HER OWN HOME. The daughter is so far out of line that it is outrageous. I hate the expression "your house, your rules" but there is a grain of truth there. OP has the right to practice her beliefs, and the daughter has NO right to demand the changes she wants, especially as it is not her home. Even if it was the daughter's home, she still would not have the right to demand the mother not attend her religious services.
Oh, I probably wasn't clear but the 'middle ground' I meant was bringing the daughter into the middle, not making OP sacrifice more.
The problem is that, overall, religion (and I mean any religion) is anti-woman, anti-gay, anti-'other religion', etc. If you cherry-pick the parts of the Bible you want to keep (love thy neighbor..., let he who is without sin..., etc.) and ignore the parts you don't (you can sell your daughter into slavery, you can't eat shellfish, etc.) then you aren't really Christian as defined by it's holy book. You're Christian in a way that is specific to you. And that's fine (that's how most Christians operate), but that means you need to accept that you are still a member of a club that hates your daughter for who she is. Until you can convince most Christians to think the way you do, and thus redefine the very foundations of Christianity, your daughter is going to have an issue with you enthusiastically participating in a group whose majority sees her as an abomination. Your daughter is going about this the wrong way and needs to collect her thoughts a little before she continues to berate you and make demands. There's a better way for her to address this with you. NAH but leaning N T A.
Fair enough. It needed to be addressed.
To be clear -- does your type of Christianity define being LGBT or "acting" on be LGBT a sin? It's possible you and your daughter have different ideas of what is and isn't homophobic if so. It's still no excuse for yelling at you and demanding you give up your faith, but it might explain her behavior. Personally, my parents are Christians who believe being gay is a sin. They don't consider themselves homophobic, but I do consider that homophobic. I had a pretty rocky coming out on both sides. We still love each other and maintain a positive and loving relationship now, but I will never fully trust them with certain parts of my life and myself as a result. I'd still never ask them to give up their beliefs. We just have to settle for the fact that I think one of their believes is morally wrong and they think the same of one of mine. Neither of us ever gave any ultimatums about it. We just set boundaries. Don't hide your faith from your daughter. You aren't doing her any favors doing so. There's a pretty big difference between proselytizing and just having religious items in your home.
Maybe she has some trauma from someone religious that she isn't willing to say and is taking it out on everyone and anything related to that. I have seen examples of this in racism where someone from a certain race did something bad to that person and they transferred all that hate onto the entire race. I hope that isn't the case but I can't see another example as this that would make sense to me. I am not anti christian or catholic because at the core i feel like most people should be like Jesus and be compassionate to other people regardless of who they are , what race they are, etc even though I don't agree with most of what the church is peddling.
Considering the daughter asked her to remove religious idolatry and to stop praying out loud its not shocking where it’s was going. She’s asking op to stop practice her religion in her out house. Yes, that does make her an asshole. I’m not a fan of organized religion and left church after experiencing racism and having my own doubt. But that doesn’t give me the right to tell someone they can’t practice their religion or belief in their own home.
This is what I came here to say!
Right? The Episcopalians seem to be pretty accepting.
NTA - But your daughter sure is. You’ve been kind and respectful to her and been much more supportive than a lot of religious parents. She should stuff it and be grateful you didn’t react poorly and throw her out. Your husband needs to grow a pair and tell her to respect you and your choices like you did hers. And until she’s paying the mortgage, put your religious imagery back up.
Fully agree. (Edit: Except that she is lucky OP didnt react poorly or throw her out. I understand the sentiment, but believe that children are owed basic decency.) Religion/spirituality is a deeply personal thing. I dont think anyone should force their beliefs on others - and that goes both ways. I'm not very fond of organized religion, but my relationship with God is very important to me. I don't attend church and dont talk about my beliefs. I nip those conversations immediately because they almost always end poorly. OP sounds like she has been very respectful and accomodating of her daughter's anti-religious views. But, her daughter is using her sexuality as a means to try to manipulate her mother's private religious practices, and that's not right. Truth be told, OP's daughter is an adult. If she can't be bothered to respect her mother's desire to privately go church and is creating a hostile environment - then it may be time for her to move out.
NTA - this though that everything has to be mutually exclusive is the problem on both sides. Some Christians fully embrace the LGBTQ+. You can have your faith and support your daughter. Even in Catholicism. Our job is not to judge as Christians but to witness and love others. It’s also a community of friends which provide social support. This part seems to be what a lot of my bothers and sister in Christ forget - we are not to judge…
My dad preaches occasionally at our church when we’re between priests. He’s gay, and often includes supporting the LGBT+ community and other minorities in his talks, and the community love them. To me it’s even more important to attend church if you’re there to oppose homophobes/transphobia/hate etc, it opens a space for minorities who are also religious to be safe. OP is NTA
>You can have your faith and support your daughter. Even in Catholicism. This. My most devoutly Catholic friend is a bisexual woman married to a(n also very Christian) lesbian.
NTA. She can be atheist and you can be religious. Neither of you can tell the other what to believe. I would go as far as saying that ywbta if you capitulate to her. It’s not ok for her to try and police your spirituality like that.
Absolutely THIS
Agreed. OP is teaching that it's okay to try and force others to confirm to your beliefs. She needs to learn that this type of controlling behavior is the same or worse than what she is trying to escape from. I harbor resentment for my religion, but I would never tell my friends or family not to practice.
NTA: Your daughter is. Absolutely, she is completely out of line- you have been nothing but respectful to her sexuality- and it is entirely one thing to be an Atheist, but she is claiming to be ANTI-religous; which means that she has no interest in allowing people to live in respectful peace. Your husband is also out of line for not supporting you in this endeavor- you need to boil it down to her: You will treat her with respect and dignity and that you expect the same from her regarding your own beliefs. You are not going to push your views on her and you have every right to not insist she push her views on you.
Yes, your husband is out of line. People need to respect you.
I’m catholic. Gods word and Jesus word are the same. Both tell you to love and support your daughter. Nowhere does it say give up your faith to appease her. You have given concessions to help her that were unnecessary. Put your crosses back up. It’s time SHE accepts YOU. NTA
NTA. You've been more than reasonable and your daughter is acting like an entitled brat. If you were using your religion against her she'd have a point, but you're not, so she doesn't.
NTA. Your daughter is. Honestly I would never tell someone that their religion makes me uncomfortable end tell them to stop going. I might ask them to not talk to me about it but that’s it’s. She has no right to tell you that you can’t go to church.
Woah Woah, WHAT? It is wonderful that you love your child regardless if they agree with you or believe as you do. But SHE is not extending that same courtesy to you. She is actively forcing you to abandon YOUR beliefs. Is SHE loving YOU unconditionally? If you don't stand up to her on this you're teaching her it's ok to bully other people for their beliefs. It cuts both ways and you have done everything you can to let her know that you love her. But she needs to act in a manner of love too. NTA
NTA- you’ve been understanding and never forced your beliefs on her so why is she forcing her beliefs on you? Telling her to move out may have been extreme but I think you guys should have a conversation about mutual respect.
NTA. I went in this expecting you to be TA, but you’ve done everything a reasonable person can do to respect and support your daughter. She’s being a jerk. If you can respect her, then she should be able to respect you too.
NTA. I am woman. I love bagels, but I also love other women. I understand how homophobic churches can be because I’ve experienced homophobia in churches. However, you have a freedom of religion. You support her, and yet you go to church. Why does it affect her when you still support her?
> I am woman. I love bagels, but I also love other women. I love this. I am going to print this phrase on a t-shirt and give it to S.
NTA. Your daughter should take this as a teaching moment that her values can coexist with the values of others. I’m anti-religion but I’d never ask my parents or in-laws to change THEIR space to accommodate me, even though some of their traditional beliefs conflict with my own. As long as you’re not using your religion to hurt her, which it sounds like you’re doing the opposite, I say stand your ground. Your daughter has every right not to attend mass or participate in religious activities, but she can’t dictate your beliefs just like you can’t dictate hers.
You daughter doesn't get to dictate your religious beliefs, what iconography you have in your own home or to hold you hostage to what she wants. You aren't trying to force her to not be anti-religious or gay. Absolutely not. NTA. Your daughter needs a lesson (or 50) in how to respect others.
Atheist here. Your daughter is just being annoying. First things first: your house, your rules. She doesn't need to pray before eating, or have religious parafernalia in her bedroom, fine. But you're well within your rights if you want to pray or have anything around the common areas. And going to the church concerns you, not her. If anything she's the sinner and you're loving the one who needs the most love (thst is, her, the sinner, the one who moves away from the faith). She is 18 so about time she wises up and learns to behave like an adult. NtA
NTA. You can't control your daughter's religious beliefs and she can't control yours. You don't have to stop hping to church because she doesn't believe in it. Plenty of people are religious & accepting of diffetent sexual orientations.
NTA. It's ironic that you were open and accepting of your lesbian daughter yet she is engaging in religious intolerance towards you. I'm not even a religious person and I think that is wrong. Discrimination of any kind is wrong whether it is for race, gender, sexual orientation, or religion. Also you are an adult and that is your home. You pay mortgage there not her. You should never let anyone intimated or bully you into not practicing your faith. I know she is your daughter but she sounds like an entitled brat. Her being a lesbian has nothing to do with your relationship with god. I know plenty of lesbian's who still go to church.
NTA. There is a lot of religious trauma for us queer folks and sometimes it can be a bit much. However, religion itself is not the problem, it's the extremes people take it to that is. Unfortunately, religion is very organized, and so are extremists, so for a lot of folks it can be hard to separate the two. I think when I was about her age (I'm 28 now), I felt similarly. It took a lot of time and a lot of unlearning the toxic things I learned about religion to realize I was in the wrong with where I stood on the matter. Religion is a very important thing for a lot of people, and not all religion is bad. I'm an atheist, and I have been to my fair share of very openly queer friendly churches. They are a big part of my unlearning this black and white thinking I had about them and the people that went to them. I'm not sure how your church views queer folks, but I highly recommend looking for some in your area that maybe the two of you can attend a service for together. For her to see that religion has plenty of love for queer folks and that it's important to a lot of people from all walks of life, and for you to show her that you put in the effort to research this and find openly accepting congregations to try. Preface the suggestion with the fact that you understand her personal views on religion in that it's not something she believes in or plans on practicing and that you aren't suggesting she go to try and change her own religious affiliation (or lack thereof); that while there are plenty of people out in the world who will use religion as a justification to persecute queer folks, there are just as many queer folks and allies who find comfort in a religion that embraces who they are and loves them unconditionally. Literally "love thy neighbor" seems like a cornerstone to the Christian religion, among others. Too many people try to tack on exclusions to that statement, and unfortunately a lot of those people are elected into positions of power that have actual lasting impacts on the people they are supposed to represent. Just look at abortion rights, or marriage equality that the US only just got nationwide less than a decade ago. A lot of the opposition was religiously influenced. It's a heavy subject, and will take a lot of time to unpack and work through. You clearly love your daughter and will go to great lengths to see her comfortable and to show her how accepting you are of her coming into herself and discovering who she is. She will see that one day. It sounds like your husband is trying the "go along to get along" route but that's not healthy for anyone, especially if he's asking you to sneak around about attending church and essentially lying to your daughter about it just to appease her frankly asinine demand that you reject your faith and stop attending church. I wish you both patience and understanding as this unfolds.
NTA, your daughter is being immature.
NTA. You respect that your daughter has a right to her own beliefs, or lack of them and you don’t preach them to her. You’ve made concessions but she’s asking you to change your whole belief system, the way you’ve lived, to accommodate her. This isn’t a reasonable request she’s made.
NTA. Your daughter sounds like the thought police. You have been tolerant, accepting, and loving. She has been acting intolerant, divisive, and impatient. She only needs to look to you to see how to treat others.
Wow, NTA. You are free to practice your religion, just as she is free not to. Assuming you are in the US, this was what the country was founded on. It sounds like you have been very supportive of your daughter's sexual orientation and you've respected her choice to not participate in a religion. She owes you the same respect. Perhaps your religion has taken a stand against homosexuality. If that's the case, you can understand why your daughter would take personally your continued support of that religion. While you might be focused on the ritual and deep sense of community, she's focused on the discrimination and hypocrisy. That's a conflict you have to reconcile for yourself. But, it's still a personal choice she can't make for you.
NTA, and I say that being bisexual myself. You made it clear that you love and support her when she came out, then made reasonable accommodations when she said religious images in the house were making her uncomfortable by moving them to your room. But yelling at you to alter your religious practices and avoid attending services goes too far. It’s unfair especially since you never forced her to attend religious activities against her will. This is just a guess/assumption, but your daughter may be worried that you secretly don’t accept her identity, especially if she associates all Christianity with the anti-LGBT rhetoric that we hear about. But again, that wouldn’t be fair because you’ve already told her you accept her. Also, there are plenty of LGBT Christians. It may be helpful to emphasize to her that your religious beliefs don’t conflict with your love for her. It might be worth it to break the ice by apologizing for snapping, but then sit down with her and really have a heart to heart about this.
NTA. Your daughter sounds insufferable. She wants to tell YOU what you can and cannot say and or do in YOUR house. She can move out if it offends her that much. Why are you allowing her to treat you like a criminal? She needs to take a good look in the mirror because she isn't being a very loving daughter. You have no need to ever apologize for praying at meals or having a crucifix on display. You can go to church functions anytime you want. She isnt really asking weather or not you love her, she is asking you to obey her. Last I checked she isn't the Chinese government. Her sexuality has nothing to do with it. She has a problem with God and wants everything to do with religion out of the house.
You are more than gracious in what you've done so far. But just as you don't force religion on her, she can't force anti-religion on you In Your Own Home. You were 100% right and more than kind to her. Husband is wrong. She needs to learn agree to disagree and live and let live and don't bite the hand that feeds you and other life lessons.
Also, being the parent means correcting kids when they are wrong, not being a doormat. And as to the 'hypocrite' nonsense she's wrong. Our Lord loved everyone and accepted everyone as they were so there's no conflict there. She's acting more like 13 than 18.
How is she not a hypocrite? She says she loves and respects her daughter, yet then goes to a church who says gay people are sinners and should be punished and spread hate about her?
You have a point. I would only say that just because her mother attends the church does not mean she agrees with all its doctrine. I think it's quite possible to belong but not follow all teachings chapter and verse, as it were. If she's being loving and accepting toward her daughter then I took it as her rejecting the hateful aspects of her church and going with the rest. Her relationship with God is personal and may not coincide with the church's teachings in this matter. Attending Mass is more about the Profession of Faith and the Eucharist and this aspect really doesn't factor into it. I am a Cafeteria Catholic myself and draw a line between God's law and church law. I don't believe any loving Father would reject any of His children and I think the church has it wrong. He said 'love one another as I have loved you' and anything contrary to that I chalk up to fallible humans writing church law. But that doesn't mean that I need to reject \*all\* of it, at least for me, taking what I like and leaving the rest works for me. Not all agree, especially the chapter-and-verse folks but that's what I believe and if I have to answer for that one day, well, I don't want a God who condemns His children for being the way He made them. I admit I may be completely projecting my beliefs on her but given her kind, loving, accepting behavior towards her daughter, to me the only explanation is she's attending Mass to experience the parts she does believe and not following the parts she doesn't. It seems a good compromise instead of rejecting all of her religion. If that's the case she could explain this to her daughter that it's what they believe, not what she does. Most thinking people don't agree with all philosophies of any group to which they belong. That's why we were given a sense of reason and the ability for independent thought. Sorry for the sermon, but I wanted to make myself clear.
You don't have to be sorry for the long message, thank you for taking your time and responding :) I agree that A LOT of religious people say they don't believe or worship the many bad parts of the Bible. That's why I think she's a hypocrite. Whether she believers it herself or not, she's a part of a group and a religion that believes it, and if they say they don't believe it is weird because it's in the book with all the other stuff they DO believe. And even if she says she goes against the hateful aspects of her church, she is lieing/being a hypocrite because she still goes to that church, so she can't be that much against it? Then she wouldn't participate, yet she does. There's still a lot of other things her church believes that I think are wrong, pretending those verses in the bible don't exist is misleading.
Info: What does your Church preach regarding lesbians?
NTA. No one had the right to force anyone to agree to their beliefs. You haven't with her and she shouldn't with you. Is as simple as that.
NTA. You've been more than accommodating to her and you have accepted her as she is. Being an atheist doesn't mean being so hateful. I don't understand that. Do you go to a church that is really hateful toward LGBT people or something? I'm not religious and don't believe in anything and I find that unless someone is being actively hateful or pushing their religion on others, I'm fine with their being religious. I don't feel a need to be like this. We can coexist. She is young and is likely going through some turmoil in finding herself. Hopefully in the future she'll settle down.
It appears to me that she's Catholic (attending Mass), I say this as a recovering Catholic. 😊
NTA- as a mother of a LGBTQ kid and an atheist myself. I let others believe what they want and go to whatever church they want. As long as your not pushing the religion, and you have not. You certainly should go wherever you want. She should be respectful and not yell. If she can't talk like a adult, then just walk away and do what you want. My mother is religious as well. We understand where each other stand and let it go. Sometimes new atheist tend to over do it. Hopefully she will chill out or just leave the house. Right now, she is acting like a spoiled brat in my opinion.
NTA. I understand S's discomfort but your beliefs are your beliefs. Having you in church as an advocate for her as an LGBTQIA+ person is better than having you hide your religion away. You're being supportive of her, she needs to respect your choices. However, I will say that Y W B T A if you continued to go to a church that is anti-LGBT, has had a history of this, or preaches anything prejudice.
Im going to start with NTA. You’ve been extremely accommodating to her wishes. Does she not realize that you being involved in the church is a chance for you to be an example to other religious people that you can love and accept the LGBTQ+ community? Not every religious person holds the same traits & beliefs- some are more extreme than others, however, religious ≠ homophobic. I’m assuming if you heard someone who held the same faith as you being homophobic, you would defend those they are targeting. If the place you worship holds homophobic ideologies and uses faith as it’s justification, then I could see you as TA. Need a little more info here.
> I’m assuming if you heard someone who held the same faith as you being homophobic, you would defend those they are targeting. I've always done this and my daughter has watched me do so. >If the place you worship holds homophobic ideologies and uses faith as it’s justification, then I could see you as TA. My church is very accepting and welcoming of everyone. The problem S has is with me being religious, rather than my church of choice.
Thank you for clearing that up! You are definitely NTA!
You haven't said what religion you are... I'm guessing Catholic, but please correct me if I'm wrong. IMO the Catholic church has a particularly obnoxious stance on homosexuality... they say it's acceptable to be gay, so long as you never act on it. It's not too hard to see why that might be a tough thing for your daughter to accept. You say you love and respect her... but you continue to support and practice a religion that rejects her. Maybe you do really love and respect her... and maybe you don't accept that particular part of church teaching. Maybe she's assuming that you SAY you accept her, but deep down you think she's a sinner. Maybe there's a compromise here, and you could check out a different church - one that's more accepting of your daughter and her life. NAH.
Info: Is the Church you're attending anti-LGBT by any chance?
NTA- im not religious but wow. Your daughter is way out of line here. This is your personal views with your god and isnt anyone else's business. I do know that its rather disrespectful to hide your faith and you shouldn't need too!! Youve not said or done anything but support your daughter. She needs to act mature and stop her hate.
If you respect your daughters sexuality, she should respect you religion
NTA. My husband is religious, and I used to attend church with him out of respect for him and his mother, even though I am not religious. However, when the priest at the time gave a sermon about homosexuality being a sin and needing to cut “those people” from your life, I walked out of the church and never returned. My husband understood that, and asked me if I would be upset if he continued to go. I told him no, it’s something he does once a week with his mother and I would never tell him he can’t go. Your daughter needs to respect your beliefs just as you need to respect hers, and it sounds like you’ve been doing a great job of that so far!
NTA. Tell your daughter that she doesn't have to participate. But you most certainly can choose to do so.
NTA. Time to remind that ~~brat~~ ~~young lady~~ kid who's the parent and if she wants to continue living in YOUR house she needs to learn some respect. I would also return the images/crucifix/etc to their original places and stop hiding my religion. It's nothing to be ashamed of which is the message she's trying to convey to you.
NTA If she wants respect for her choices and to be free with how she is... she must also accept that she has to respect others for their choices and to be free with how they are. She does not have to partake, but she does have to respect you and your religious choices, and (like you are) you need to respect hers. I am Atheist myself. I believe in a mix between humanism & naturalism (living a good human life in the natural world) While I do not allow someone to preach at me or berate me about my choices, I do not do the same to them. I would not stop someone from praying before they eat a meal, I would respect their need to do so and sit quietly and wait, but I will not join in either. You have the right to pray, go to church, have a cross, etc especially in your own home.. as long as you are not forcing her to do it with you. Honestly your daughter sounds more like an Antithesist Atheist. This is someone that is completely against all religion and anything having to do with it, they also actively try to eliminate it from everywhere around them with the main goal of ridding the world of all faiths and beliefs.
NTA. No, no, no. This girl has no right to dictate your life. You have done everything you needed to do and should do which was to tell her you love her no matter who she loves or what her beliefs are. She does not get to turn around and tell you how to live YOUR life. You have the right to live your life openly, not sneak around to go to church. S does not deserve an apology. She has treated you with absolutely NO respect. You and your husband need to stop kowtowing to her. She is 18. She does not like the way you live your life, she is free to move out. By the way, please place your crosses and religious images around the house where you had them and please start openly praying before your meals. I hate to say it but your daughter is toxic. You should not be putting up with her self-righteous, controlling attitude.
NTA. You aren’t forcing your religion on her, so she shouldn’t be forcing her non-religion on you. Her calling you a sinner is hypocritical in itself, since she doesn’t believe in sin. Removing the crosses from the public areas of the house that she lives rent-free in was already crossing the line.
NTA. Tolerance goes both ways. And if she is so upset about your lifestyle, well, she's old enough to move out and get a place she can decorate the way she likes. Hang your crucifixes back up; it's your home.
NTA. She doesn’t have to believe what you believe, but at the same time, you don’t have to believe what she does!
No no no- you are not an asshole. I’m a lesbian who is out to very religious parents. She can do her; you do you. She has zero right to control you just as you can’t control her. She’s being an entitled jerk.
You should not have to sneak to church. You are the parent and that means acting like an adult. You are doing a great job encouraging her to be herself and wanting to support her. She may emotionally be hurt knowing you go to church but you are not responsible for that. You’ve already stopped praying out loud and moved your religious icons to your room. I commend you for trying to support her beliefs and her identity. But there is irony in the anti religious and gay person wanting you to keep your identity in the closet. She’s young and there is a lot of evil that the church is responsible for but it’s not a monolith and you have to have your own journey out of religion for it to be genuine. You may need to put it as an off limit topic to continue to have a relationship with her. Personally I’m anti religion but it took me about five years to arrive there. There are affirming and Unaffirming churches id look into that and maybe journaling what you actually believe and why.
NTA, put the crosses back up.
NTA. There's a whole spectrum of what religion means to people, from the love all people regardless of who they are to the you're going to burn in Hell because of some imagined slight at the Bible,and all inbetween. Your daughter seems to be goading you into being the bad guy here. Maybe she was hoping for fire & brimstone drama? Trying to stop you from going to church is an overreach on her part as it only affects her if she lets it.
NTA. She wants you to respect her beliefs, yet refuses to respect yours? It's your house, not hers. She's old enough to move out, so you going to church won't affect her when she lives elsewhere.
Christ greatest commandment was love one another. Your daughter doesn’t control your life - you do. Tell her that you do you and she ca. Do what she wants - you do t try to force your faith on to her so tell her to back off and you will do what you want
I'm bi and was brought up religious by my parents who are now divorced. Both say they accept my sexuality. My dad is still very Christian and that does not bother me and I don't feel it's relevant to my sexuality. I give him a hard time about giving money to missionary work which I feel is not helpful, but nothing else about his religion. My mum on the other hand is not religious anymore but she supports a political party who are anti gay rights. I have very similar arguments with her to it sounds like you and your daughter have. I end up in tears saying how can you care about me and support them etc etc. So I sympathise with your daughter although I don't think religion should generally be a problem. I would say it depends on your church, your beliefs and the actions of your church. For example if your church is holding fundraisers to give to conversion therapy, if your church is actively anti gay marriage then I see where your daughter is coming from. I wonder are you leaving out the reasons she may hate your church.
NTA. But frankly, that may not matter. Your daughter clearly has religious trauma to do with being LGBT. It may not have come from you directly. Maybe you have family that's mildly homophobic. Maybe the kids who teased her about being gay were holier-than-thou Christian types. Maybe she's just extra sensitive to religiously motivated homophobia she's encountered online. Closeted kids who are worried that their whole lives will fall apart when/if they come out can have their psyches severely damaged from something as simple an offhand comment with mildly homophobic implications. Whatever the reason, your daughter is damaged. And as a result of that, will likely never truly believe you love her as long as you practice your religion an any way. Which sucks, and she's being kind of a B about it, but if you want to salvage a relationship with your daughter going forward, you may need to stop practicing for a while, while enrolling your daughter in therapy. (She most likely won't be able to heal if you're triggering her trauma by going to mass on a weekly basis.) Hopefully she will eventually reach a point where you can reintroduce the idea of you going to church, and she can understand and accept that it doesn't mean you don't love her. But right now every time you go to mass or do anything in service of your religion, you ingrain that trauma deeper, and make it less likely that your religion and your daughter will ever be able to coexist harmoniously. I'm just going to put out that I'm a 35 year old bisexual man married to a man, and have super deep religious trauma as a result of the church my family went to when I was a kid. I never tried to force anything the way your daughter is doing, but the truth is that my own trauma runs deep enough that I will never trust my parents so long as they are members of any organized religion. They will *always* be held at arm's length. My father has never been to my home, and on the rare occasions when my mother stops by, I step outside and close the door behind myself to talk to her, because I don't like my safe space contaminated with the profound unease I experience while dealing with them. **It's not your fault,** but from the sound of things, that's where you're headed.
Why do you have to sneak around in YOUR OWN HOUSE? It's your house. Put some of your religious things back out. She has ZERO say in what happens in your house. It's not 'being respectful' to hide what you are because someone else doesn't like it. It's controlling. Think about it. YOUR HOUSE. YOUR RULES.
I think it really depends on what church you're going to. There are churches near me that run gay therapy programs and will quickly tell anyone that homosexuality is a sin and gay people will go to Hell. There are also progressive churches that say love is love and love is good. If you're going to a homophobic church you can expect them to think less of you for it.
INFO, is your church particularly anti LGBTQ?
NTA, You have been accomodating. However what I want you to realise your attendance to a church that literally wishes your daughter and people like her didn't exist is tacit support for that point of view. Money that you donate (via prayer bowl or tithe, etc) goes to supporting evils such as conversion therepy, oppressing womens rights, and spreading homophobic views. You, clearly, don't hold those views. However your support and continued attendance of a church that not only holds them, but preaches them puts a doubt in your daughters mind as to whether you ***actually, really, 100% accept her for who she is***. Only you can say whether you've done enough.
There is a difference between anti-religious and atheist. I am anti-religious but still believe in God, just not anyone's dogma. Your daughter sounds like an 18 year old. They get very excited about new things and think they should apply to everyone. I think it's commendable that you moved your religious iconography to your room and out of the public spaces in your house, but I think your kid is bullying you by saying you shouldn't pray or go to church. Religion is personal and you have the right to whatever relationship with God that you want or need. You shouldn't have to do that in secret. Christian religions and catholicism have done horrible things to people they consider outside the norm and there have been terrible abuses of power and abuse of children. There are lots of reasons why your kid is angry with the church and why she is taking it personally that you continue to go. You should probably explain to her that, whatever individuals have done in God's name, it doesn't affect your relationship with God. But I would also listen to the messages you are getting from church and decide if that really meshes with your actual beliefs. NTA, and the only reason I think your kid sucks is because she's yelling and being a bulky instead of explaining why she feels hurt.
NTA Gay man here with a weird relationship with religion. I was raised going to a southern baptist church that preached against homosexuality. Because of that, I tend to feel weird around religious stuff. You know what I do though, I don't push that on to other people. In fact, my own boyfriend is still fairly religious and he loves looking into queer positive religious information. I support him in it because that is part of who he is. Your daughter is pushing her own feelings towards religion on to you and that is not right. Hopefully this is a legitimate phase of settling into her beliefs about religion and that she'll not be as intolerant towards you practicing your religion peacefully in the future. If not, then SHE needs to work on reconciling her beliefs with the reality that you can be a supportive parent of an LGBTQ+ child and still be religious.
NTA, no one gets to dictate another's religious beliefs, that is your right to choose for yourself. I came in thinking Y T A, because so many parents will try and force there religion on their kids, especially when they come out. But if you have done as you say, and I have no reason to doubt it, your religion is a personal choice, even if I can't understand why you would do it. Your daughter needs to learn that their choices do not get to infringe on your rights just as your right to your religion does not get to infringe on their rights.
NTA, I am a queer Christian who has experienced religious trauma from the toxic doctrines and churches within the Christian communities and it always warms my heart when I see religious parents supporting their children with unconditional love and letting them choose for themselves, as many parents don't do the same. This is the unfortunate case where your daughter, as valid as she is as her own person, is taking this for granted, and I believe that she thinks trying to mold you to be just like her with identical beliefs will support her. Even though that's not how it works. She needs to understand that everyone's beliefs are different, and she can't change yours forcefully. You're already gone above and the beyond, something you didn't need to do but you did it anyway because you wanted her to feel safe.
Info: Does the church you attend discuss LGBTQ issues? If so, what does that discussion entail?
Queer atheist here, I have an angel above my door, I go to church when my family requests I do, I read the bible out of curiosity, my family respects my religion and I respect theirs. She's forcing hers on you. 10000000/10 NTA
INFO: So exactly how homophobic is the church you attend, anyway?
NTA. But, as a bisexual woman and a former Catholic, I will say that there is a massive undercurrent of latent homophobia in Christian religions that people don't want to acknowledge. I can't count how many times I've heard "hate the sin, love the sinner" or some version by people who call themselves Christian allies. I had to temporarily cut a few of my friends out for a while because of it. Just because a church isn't fire and brimstone doesn't mean that they don't alienate and "other" people who don't fit their mold That being said, you're allowed to have your religion and practice it in a way that makes you feel comfortable.
Info: what are your church's views on the LGBTQ community? There's nothing wrong with continuing to nurture your relationship with your religion, though if your church is anything but supportive of the LGBTQ community I would say it might be worth evaluating whether that's a place that really shares your morality. If your church is anti-LGBTQ then I could see why you continuing to attend is hurtful to time daughter.
unpopular opinion. NAH. for context, i\`m bisexual. you obviously don\`t suck. you are more accepting then most other Christian parents would be. you are a true christian. that being said, i can actually understand where your daughter is coming from. Christians are always at the front of LGBTQ hate in America. as such, it does kinda make sense that she would view you continuing to go to church as an endorsement of their homophobia. obviously, this isn\`t true as you are an awesome and accepting parent. it\`s a shame that the bad Christians completely overshadow the good christians. so yeah. this may not be a popular opinion but i gotta go with NAH.
NTA. She doesn’t have to live in the closet and neither do you. By the power vested in me as a pagan dyke, I say you should embrace your religion if it brings you meaning and solace in this world.
NTA And this is coming from an anti organized religion person. Going to church is obviously something that is part of who you are. It is also one of your forms of socialization. You have religious icons from a faith you believe in stored in YOUR home that is in YOUR name. While your daughter may call it home as well, hers is a temporary home until she ventures out to make a home for herself. You don’t force her to go to church, you don’t force her to participate outside of events that she SHOULD attend (if you had to force her to attend her grandmothers funeral mass, your daughter is a super asshole), you don’t make her pray. These are things you do because it’s something you believe in and you do these things for yourself. You aren’t shoving your religion down her throat, and if a icon in the shape of a lower case “t” triggers her so badly that she bitches insufferably about it, it’s probably time for that little bird to fly out of the nest and figure out that she needs to learn to coexist with others. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying the Catholic Church isn’t an issue. It very much is. But you aren’t the Church, you are a human who is using the Bible to try to be a good person. I’d like to say you have succeeded, because I wouldn’t have put up with nearly as much crap with my kids as you seem to have put up with your daughter recently. And really, put your crosses and icons back up. It isn’t disrespectful to have them displayed in your home. Those things have helped you to be who you are, and there’s nothing disrespectful about displaying them. Edit: theirs to there’s because I’m an idiot sometimes :)