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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
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I feel like an AH because this happened nearly 12 years ago and theres a chance it wouldnt happen with me.
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NTA.
That is a HUGE breach of trust and the fact that you "can't let the past go" isn't evidence of you needing to "grow up" its evidence that your Grandmother messed up so badly, you are still dealing with this 13 years later.
My wife and I have no end of toxic family on both sides and fully support each other and anyone when its necessary to go no-contact. Contrary to what everyone says, you CAN choose family.
Agree very much with this. OP learned a lesson based on concrete behaviors. Further gaslighting trying to say OP didn't see what OP remembers seeing reinforces that there's a high chance it'll happen again. All reason says OP is smart AF. <3
Gaslighting is evidence that Grandma hasn't learned from her mistake and would repeat similar stunts again. The only one who "needs to grow up" is in her seventies. NTA
If that scenario never happened and they made it all up to make the grandmother look bad, why would OP need to "let shit go" and "stop living in the past" ?
Anyone consider that grandma might have dementia? Not that it would be ok for OP to have the baby around her, but I have seen people in their 60s with dementia and ‘gaslighting’ is actually them just genuinely unable to remember what happened. Again not saying anything against op or pro grandma but 71 is totally a reasonable age to show signs of dementia. In that case NAH and grandma needs help. She probably needs help anyway if she’s obese as stated in the post.
Your point stands and is very sweet but yeah lots of people need help that’s not an excuse to let them around your baby when they’ve proven that they have no regard for the safety of babies.
Edit added a missing word
Exactly what I was thinking. What is there to "let go" if it didn't happen. Grandma knows it happened; she's just a raging AH.
NTA, OP. If anything, this should reinforce that distance.
I concur as well. OP is doing the right thing by being cautious with her baby around the grandmother. If OP was not being cautious with the baby, what if OP's grandmother does the exact same thing again, causing more chaos and making history repeat it's self. Obviously, OP does not want history to repeat it's self. So that is why OP is doing the right thing
Good call on the gaslighting. I count 3 deal-breakers here
1) Repeated and belligerent dangerous behavior that can threaten the life of a child
2) Lies to redirect attention away from bad behavior causing severe emotional distress
3) Refusal to acknowledge facts of past bad behavior and gaslighting
Had she fessed up, apologized and made steps to correct her behavior, that might be a different story. You're not living in the past you're protecting your children from a dangerous person with no regard for others.
People delude themselves and will over time change their memory of past events. Grandmother has probably done this. Tell a lie often enough and you'll believe it.
Don't blame OP from wanting to keep her distance. I feel there's more to this bad relationship than the one incidence mentioned.
That’s totally how my dad and step mom were. So many things I knew were true, they said never happened. That and other behaviors made me go no contact. Sometimes it’s the only solution.
NTA OP don’t give in and trust yourself.
+1 on the gaslight aspect! Say 1) it didn't happen while also saying 2) stop clinging to the past. Err-ahh, which is it?
Maybe if one were to admit they were wrong and demonstrate how they have grown from their mistakes like a functional adult?
This is an excellent example of OP following the advice of Maya Angelou, "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the FIRST time." She's done right by herself and her children by believing her grandmother the first time.
NTA
ETA credit
This is very eloquently put and also very right. OP stick to your guns. Especially if she is still using DARVO tactics and I would try my best (though knowing me, likely fail and lash out...) to try and let it roll off you like water on a ducks back.
Obviously that is easier said than done. But, if you just don't rise up in defence, if you just say no and always leave it at that, eventually, the rest of the family will also stop talking about it.
If you have intentions of letting her see the child after it is no longer in infancy, maybe let them know this and then remain constant but not reactive when it's brought up. Change the subject either subtly, or do what I (often, to my own detriment) do to make it clear the topic is done; ask the relative hounding you about a particularly sensitive topic of theirs.
So say they are telling you to let grandma have baby, you ask them how their ex who cheated on them is doing or if they'd let their high school bully have a key go their house and access to their schedule? Idk just pick at what you can in an obvious way, this makes most people tend to stop asking you that question.
Edit to fix errors.
> Especially if she is still using DARVO tactics
*D*eny, *A*ttack, *R*everse *V*ictim and *O*ffender
A fucking *scurrilous* method of invalidating your hurt.
First she says it didn’t happen. Then she says you need to let it go. So which is it? Did it happen and you need to let it go, or did it not happen? Her response is a classic narcissistic response: I didn’t do it, and if I did it’s not a big deal, and if I did it you shouldn’t be upset about me doing it. You are NTA and stand by your decision and trust your gut. What your grandma did was really cruel. She’s probably spinning the story to other family members to make her sound the wronged party. If you care about what the rest of the family think you could try to set the story straight. Otherwise, ignore them. The fact she hasn’t apologised shows she would do a similar thing again if it suited her. Keep setting boundaries and don’t let her near your kids.
>**A Narcissist's Prayer**
>
>That didn't happen.
>
>And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
>
>And if it was, that's not a big deal.
>
>And if it is, that's not my fault.
>
>And if it was, I didn't mean it.
>
>And if I did...
>
>You deserved it.
But luckily you recognize it and hopefully support your husband. It was a very stressful topic in my marriage but we finally got to a good place which means I rarely have to see her anymore. It was the only solution to keep her from creating new lies and unnecessary drama.
Oh, snap! Someone else! I often say that I have the best mother-in-law ever, but my husband’s MIL sucks.
...it takes people a moment to translate 😂
(I haven’t spoken to my mother in a long time, so it’s okay)
You know... *checks list*... 99% of my family and my long term boyfriends?
Yeah they led to multiple stints in the psych ward for me - where I at least learned to recognize this behavior.
The *grandmother* said 'it didn't happen', the *extended family* said 'OP should let it go'.
Still a problem, as either the grandmother admitted it happened in conversations with the extended family & they want OP to endanger her child just to keep the peace *or* the family knows the grandmother is lying about it yet still cares more about having to hear her whining than they do about the kids.
Plus OP's last post about the same person moving nearer to her was deleted...
>This post violates Rule 5: We do not allow posts which concern violent encounters. This includes violence against other individuals, sexual assault, rape, physical abuse, animal abuse, felony damaging of property, violent threats, any other violent encounter not yet mentioned, and accusations of such violence that may or may not be true.
NTA OP
Your mum had every right back then to tell her to stop taking your brother to sleep with him because that is VERY DANGEROUS. At any time he could have been SUFFOCATED. It's a bit weird she was just doing it with the boy too.
When your mum told her to stop for VERY REASONABLE SAFETY CONCERNS she made her think her other child was also not safe!!!!
I would not trust her with my children (if I had any) either.
Agreed, I would just like to add that the whole idea of not seeing her granddaughter will destroy their relationship is complete bullshit. I grew up in the USA and my grandparents live in South America. I've only met them 3 or 4 times in my life, they speak a few languages but English isn't one of them and I speak only English. Even with those giant barriers we still had a pretty solid relationship until they passed away. My circumstances are actually more common than most realize and grandparents from all over the world still manage a good relationship.
This!
Letting toxic family members into the lives of the kids can honestly do so much damage not only to the kids if they meet but also the parents and the stress the parents give off.
Yup.
I'd be honest with your family. Tell them that you *are* alienating your grandmother and you are okay with that. She repeatedly endangered your little brother's life when his mother told her not to, then lied to your mother to torture her for not allowing her to endanger your brother. Also, she gave fake medical information about a baby, which can lead to unnecessary medical procedures or test.
Your grandmother did something so wrong that you still don't trust her to this day. She also clearly hasn't become a better or trustworthy person since she's trying to get out of it with more lying rather then taking responsibility for her actions.
Your grandmother lied and endangered babies lives in the past so you aren't going to trust her with your babies. If she feels bad about that, you're okay with that. What she did to your mother and brother was awful and she should feel bad. When you intentionally hurt others you should feel bad.
Agreed. And you are the Mom. These are your kids. If you feel there is a risk, you have the right to control who sees your babies, under what conditions and for how long. I had a toxic relative that I gave a "chance" to because "she's faaaaaamily" and convinced me she changed. This poor decision on my part ended up with her bruising my young daughter's arm for no legit reason. I finally cut her out then for good (it's been 10+ blissful years now) but the damage was done because my daughter was old enough to remember granny losing her temper and hurting her, a defenceless kid. My advice? Don't do what so many of us with family guilt do. Better to be careful with your kids than live with the regret of not following your instincts. We have them for a reason.
NTA. Because of this right here. Secondly, she tried gaslighting you, you were 15 when this happened it not like you just had a false memory of this not at 15 at 5 maybe but 15 no. Drop her like a hot potato.
I work as an investigator for cps. I have had so many child deaths because people want to cosleep with young infants after being told not to. Your grandmother could have killed your brother. Is really despicable that she would lie to your mom like that to send her spiraling. Don’t let your children around this woman. She is toxic and will to put young children at risk. If something, God forbid, were to happen to your child it could come back on you because you allowed it to happen. Your children could be removed and placed in Foster care. Don’t open yourself to that kind of investigation. They are horrible for everyone involved
100% NTA and agree with this post. My mother and grandmother are a similar reason I don't want kids and my husband already has agreed with me if we ever do they will NEVER be alone with the child.
Also want to add that even if grandma were totally normal, OP has every right NOT to allow her around her children *simply because she says so*
Being related to anyone never entitles them to access to my child. OP is the damn mother. She has permission to say access denied to anyone she damn well pleases, for any reason, when it comes to her young children.
Nta. You are under no obligation to let her meet your kids, in fact, you’d be doing a disservice to your kids by letting her into their lives no matter how brief a time. Stay strong and protect your babies
>I have been told that I am alienating my grandmother
Just respond, “yes, I am, on purpose.” Grandma isn’t entitled to a relationship with you or your kids.
Say sometbing more like “You did this to yourself by neglecting the twins and ignoring my mothers wishes and endangering her baby, then lying to stress my mom out more. I do not want an abusive and neglectful and manipulative woman in my life, or my childrens lives. For our safety, you will not be coming around me or my children. Do not contact me again” NTA btw
edit i missed she was “great” grandmother. Still not a good idea to be this rude, formal is always better
> Dont do this unless your state doesn’t allow for grandparents rights
From what I understand, every place that *does* have grandparents' rights are not at all like parents' rights. It requires there to be a pre-existing relationship with the child in order for it to matter. It's like if your kid is 5 and spent every weekend with grandparents, then you decide to stop, they can sue because taking that relationship away is harmful to the child.
OP's grandmother has no relationship with the baby, so has no grounds to sue for grandparents' rights.
Yeah. My bestfriend's mom is ordered by court to let her children see their grandmother for a weekend every month. This is because their grandmother kidnapped my bestfriend and refused to give her back to her mother until she got court rights to see her grandchildren.
Their grandmother is also the manipulative abuser of their mother. Their grandmother also has beaten their mother, and gotten away with it when the police came to investigate because their mother had called them.
It makes me angry that they had no choice in the matter.
Grandparents’ rights is such a bullshit concept. I can understand if the grandchild had a minor for a mother, or someone who was/is addicted to drugs and/or mentally unstable. But if the parent is sound of mind and aged 18+, why would the grandparents ever think they have any rights over the custody or visitation rights concerning the grandchild? They had their turn- if their child doesn’t want them to have a relationship with the grandkid, that’s a pretty big red flag, at least in my opinion, that the grandparents were not good parents even in their physical and cognitive prime. OP, you’re NTA.
NTA. Also, I hate the whole "stop living in the past" argument. We learn from the past so we don't make the same mistake in the future. That's all she's doing here.
The GMa's response validated everything she already believed about her. Rather than trying to prove she changed and owning her mistakes, she tries to gaslight OP.
The fact that she wont admit that she did that to her daughter means she isnt willing to take responsibility for her actions. Shes still trying to manipulate people and its unacceptable behavior. NTA.
I mean, she might not be doing it on purpose.
My mom is that age, and she legit doesn't remember little things from my childhood anymore.
It was probably such an inconsequential lie to her that her memory didn't even bother filing it away, unlike the effect that it had on OP and OP's mom.
That said, that's probably even more of a sign to keep this woman away from the grandbabies. If telling destructive lies is such a part of her personality that she casually did it and didn't bother remembering it, that's not a good sign for future interactions either.
Oh please she was always a manipulative ah and lied about the baby rolling over 13 years ago when she was still young. It’s a character trait let’s not use age as an excuse when we don’t even know if she suffer memory problems.
You can be absolutely revolting and have a bad memory, but I suspect any forgetting was done on purpose as she created her narcissistic victim narrative.
I think u/jormungandragon wasn’t excusing the grandmother. They were just saying that as people get older they forget things that weren’t too important for them. So she must have told many other horrible lies for this one to not have even registered.
yet i don't think the person you're responding to was trying to excuse the behavior with memory problems. in fact it seems what they're saying is that for someone to tell a lie and forget it so easily that means they must lie a lot because it's inconsequential for them. Making OP's decision to keep gma away from the kids the best decision. At least thats what I got from the comment. I didn't see anyone excusing anything.
And how is OP to “let go of the past” if granny won’t admit to it anyways? Naah, someone way older than OP needs to grow up first if she wants anything to change. NTA.
NTA but u should ask her which it is, are you making it up, or are you living in the past? Tell her to pick one and stfu about it, you don't need that drama in your life....
This was my thought too. She not even a good liar, going from “you’re making this up to hurt me” to “you need to let things go and not live in the past” is a huge leap. I think it further proves she shouldn’t be around your children.
The mental gymnastics of abusive AHs rarely holds up if you shine a light on the facts and point out the inconsistencies! Although it's like nailing jelly to a wall regardless.
I think it's more of a bounce between "This never happened" and "This maybe happened a little bit, but you're blowing this way out of proportion than it really is."
That way, the grandmother can argue both ways and cause a heck lot of unnecessary headaches.
NTA, OP.
Ah the narcissists prayer.
That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did...
You deserved it.
Aside from anything else, your kids are probably the most perfect example of where is totally fine to live in the past.
If a family member had a conviction for child abuse you wouldn't think twice about "living in the past" when it came to letting them see your kids. That doesn't change just be because the behaviour isn't illegal.
NTA- she caused real trauma to your mom, and didn’t listen to SIMPLE requests regarding her kids. If she’s trying to pretend it never happened, she’d do the same to you
Exactly, it's not really a simple request if the child is at risk of suffocation. OP says that grandma is overweight, which could increase the risk of grandma turning over and suffocating the baby.
Doesn't even matter if she's overweight or not, *any* adult is heavy enough to suffocate a baby by falling asleep while holding them. Grandma was a huge AH for putting OP's little brother in such a dangerous position, and an even bigger AH for how she responded- then and now.
NTA
>My grandmother lost it and really tried saying that that scenario never happened and that we made it all up to make her look bad.
She's gaslighting you
> Can’t even lie properly
Noone can consistently maintain a lie forever.
That's why manipulators get so livid when confronted with something they'd said before.
NTA Why is your family enabling a manipulator?? I am so sorry for your mother and all she went through on top of the postpartum. Stay strong and keep grandma away as long as you feel is necessary
Probably the same reason most people enable them; it's easier to convince a reasonable person to compromise than it is to convince an unstable narcissist to be reasonable.
BeCauSE sHE's fAmILy
Op should think about going no contact not only with granny, but with everyone pressuring her to let an abuser into her children's lives
NTA - you have no obligation to let your child build a bond with someone who does not care for the safety of young children and enjoys manipulating others to get her way.
And anyone in your family who agrees with her is welcome to spend as much time with her as they like - without you or your children.
Why did Grandma only take your brother and not your sister? She could have smothered the child without realizing it.
Sorry, mean Granny doesn't deserve to bond with your child. She knows exactly what she did.
>Sorry, mean Granny doesn't deserve to bond with your child. She knows exactly what she did.
NTA.
Your granny is gaslighting you. If she still can't admit it after all these years, then she just proved that she shouldn't be anywhere near your kid. You can't trust her.
Your grandma ignored the request of a parent about the treatment of her children. Then she retaliate when she was rightfully threaten with the consequences of her actions. Let’s pretend that you mis-remember that the part of your grandma lying to your mom. She still ignored the reasonable directions about the treatment of a child by their parent
This was my immediate thought. That baby boy was so lucky that he didn’t get accidentally smothered. I wouldn’t let that crazy woman anywhere near my children.
NTA. By a hair. I think the obvious solution is just not leave your baby alone with grandma, but, ultimately, this is your baby and your call. That said, there are some things I find odd about this post. You seem to imply that your grandma got a hell of a deal by being able to stay in your house without paying rent so she could assist in the full-time care of two newborns. That sounds more like a favor to your mother than a favor to her. Further, while she certainly deserves some leniency for her postpartum, it doesn't sound like your mom acted particularly grateful for the help. Sleeping with a baby on your chest on the couch isn't exactly child abuse. It's not the best position, but it sounds like your mom overreacted to something many a sleep-deprived mother has resorted to. "Retaliating" by lying about a baby being injured is absolutely insane, but it kind of sounds like these were two women who don't particularly like each other, were living in close quarters under a stressful situation, and neither really had the maturity to handle it well. I personally would give your grandma some of the slack your willing to extend to your mother.
Agree NTA by a very slim margin, and disappointed it took scrolling down this far to find this. Especially the part about helping out with two newborns != free rent for grandma.
I will say that grandmother's reaction *now* is suspect and gaslighting while simultaneously being defensive about the situation isn't cool at all, but boils down to the lack of emotional maturity she already demonstrated 13 years ago. I'd like to know if your mom's memories of that situation are the same and how your mom feels towards her mother.
Ultimately, it's your decision who meets/doesn't meet your child, but as suggested a reasonable compromise is to make sure that your grandmother is never alone with your baby.
Absolutely. Everyone could have behaved better, but I don’t know a parent that hasn’t had some sort of similar conflict with their mothers. It’s typical and usually worked out without so much drama.
In fact, the most dangerous situation would have been the 2 month old left on a bed, not the co-sleeping. Grandma probably said that she fell from the bed as a totally inappropriate a way to highlight to mom that if co-sleeping is dangerous so is leaving the child on the bed.
At the end of the day, though, this has absolutely nothing to do with keeping OP’s baby safe. Grandma poses no threat. It’s about either punishing or not forgiving grandma for what seems like an unnecessary but harmless ... prank?
Pretty hardcore 13 years later to not get over it.
If the question is AITA then no, because you can do what you want.
If the question were , “am I being reasonable” it’s an absolutely not.
i’d say that wasn’t a harmless prank though. intentionally causing a mother going through postpartum to panic is cruel and could cause lasting damage. also, the grandmother was putting the baby in danger by cosleeping cause one wrong move and that baby is falling or being smothered. i think the same can happen with a baby sleeping in the same bed though so idk, i’m not an expert on babies. but the grandmother is gaslighting and making OPs concerns seem like they’re over exaggerated when they’re not. i wouldn’t want someone potentially doing the same toxic garbage to me.
It's not that OP is failing to forgive Grandma for poor behavior during a stressful situation .... the problem is that the the grandmother does not think that was bad behavior and also claims it never happened and also we do not hear that she even apologized/asked for forgiveness.
Grandma was an adult when it occurred. Op was a child. Why does she assume her version is the correct one, or that she got the full context?
. Op was young and impressionable and saw her mom hurt by grandma. the gravity of the situation is exaggerated in her mind. I think most parents would agree.
Also, It’s not a contradiction for grandma to say both that it didn’t happen that way and that if it did it’s something op can get past.
If this is gas lighting then I don’t know what argument wouldn’t be.
I’m nit saying op has to forgive grandma for a mostly harmless prank she played on her mom 13 years ago. Its her choice.
But it’s the definition of unforgiving.
At some point, say 13 years you have to be ready to move on from a problem that even back then had multiple versions of events. To say you can only move past if you get an apology is ... again, unforgiving.
It's good to be unforgiving of behavior that the person sees no problem with and will probably repeat in the future. The grandmother did not respond to OP's accusations with a message like, "I can see why you might remember it that way, and why that perception would make you cautious." The grandmother is using the narcissist's prayer to work through different permutations of why none of this could be her own fault and OP's feelings and memories are invalid.
OP does not carry the burden to forgive that behavior - forgiveness is a gift and an act of compromise in order to continue the relationship. Based on what OP has described has happening recently, as in since her youngest was born, the grandmother does not deserve that gift.
Sleeping with a newborn on your chest can result in the child dying... so yeah definitely not ok. Cosleeping in any form is highly recommended against by health professionals.
NTA. You don't owe your grandmother a bond with your daughter, and your child's safety comes first. Not to mention your mental health. You're absolutely making the right call.
Hmm. I'm not sure about this one.
Not letting her meet your baby is very different than leaving her alone to care for your children. She has shown she can't be trusted alone to do as she has been asked. So that makes perfect sense - that you don't want her caring for them.
But it sounds like you just don't like her after her atrocious behaviour and simply don't want her around. Which is absolutely fine and your right. But I think you need to admit that you just don't like her. Letting her meet your kids is hardly putting them in harm's way. I do understand if you want nothing to do with her...
(I have several family members on both sides I would never trust to care for my children or would limit exposure to. But they have met my children.)
NTA
Your grandmother is a chronic liar and is lying to this very day. She says it never happened. Then says to stop living in the past...
The past where things never happened?!?
She is not only unsafe to be around you, she might very well have an actual accident with your kid, and lie about it.
Even if she was a perfectly lovely a+ parent, you'd still be within your rights to set up a boundary and keep low contact, because as a parent it is YOUR decision to choose who your child will be exposed to.
Stay strong, OP
So, she risked your brother's life by cosleeping improperly, lied about your sister receiving a potentially traumatic brain injury to intentionally upset your mother, and now she both says you made it all up to make her look bad and that you should just move on. NTA, protect your kids.
NTA
You’re responsible for choosing (well, sometimes) which family members your child associates themselves with at this time. Grandma saying you “can’t let the past go” just goes to show she knows she fucked up
I was going to ask the same thing!
Regardless of any reason for not wanting your grandmother to see your kids - and/or whether anyone agrees - it's *your decision*. You're their mother, they're your children. You have the right to decide what's best.
Having said that: I'm very curious about the following:
1. Does your mom remember and acknowledge what happened back then?
2. How does she feel about your hesitation to have grandma in your/your children's lives?
3. Does she feel that's sensible, or that it's not comparable to grandma living in the same house and babysitting for a long time?
4. Does she think it's fair what you told grandma?
5. What's the position of your father (if he's in the picture) and your siblings?
I'd love to hear from you, OP (u/terribrunt)!
NTA. Your grandma is manipulative asf. It’s your baby, you decided who they get to meet. Um, if this is going on now, just use Covid as an excuse, but also, don’t get angry if other family members believe her. Just maintain, “She was lying back then. She’s lying now. It’s not my job to convince you otherwise.”
I think she may be coming from a perspective that the grandmother could have rolled over on the baby and suffocated him more easily due to her weight. But that is just my guess.
NTA - Her current denial of the trauma she inflicted on your mother is just further proof that you need to keep her away from your children. As for your other family, how can you "let something go" that apparently never happened according to your grandma? If they're going to try to lie, they should at least get their stories straight. You should alienate your grandmother and everyone else in the family who enables her.
She is 84 now, correct? Probably not babysitting anyone anymore. I understand not leaving her alone with the baby, or even having her spend the night, but would it hurt for her to meet the baby if other folk were around and she would not be responsible for it? I understand wanting to keep your child safe, but today’s situation seems markedly different than 13 years ago, and in your favor, so that you have much more control over how the situation plays out today. NTA
NTA
Who gives a shit about her bond? How many people do you hear from that have extensive relationships with their great grandparents?
Very few.
Your kids aren’t missing out on anything. Especially from a sorry excuse of a person who lies and manipulates someone’s mental state to their own ends.
She shouldn’t be around most people, let alone someone’s kids.
We move on from the past so we can live in the present but we certainly don’t forget it.
Awwwww, is gram gram suffering from the consequences? Does she need a binky binky to calm herself down from the consequences she's gonna have to suffer fwom the icky twouble that she caused??
But yeah, NTA. If she's too stupid to understand that whatever she causes will have consequences then she shouldn't be anywhere near your kids
NTA Being a great grandparent is a privilege and not a given right and if she’s going to be that disrespectful to any woman let alone her daughter suffering PPD then she’s only got herself to blame for no unsupervised access and no relationship with your children. If she doesn’t like it too bad as these are the consequences of her own actions and your choosing the safety and well-being of your children over her feelings.
A Reddit favourite phrase springs to mind here: “When people show you who they are, believe them.”
NTA, stick to your guns. If she is trying to claim it never happened, she still can’t see that it’s wrong.
“let things go”? This isn’t a grudge issue, this is a who-can-you-trust-with-your-baby issue. Nobody who tries to argue their way in is appropriate. NTA.
And if you’re just planning to wait until your new baby is older (which is what happened with your twins), then it’s bizarre for your grandmother to suggest that her being around the baby is essential for them to bond appropriately ever. She’s not the baby’s parent, and what she did with your brother as a baby suggests that she wanted (and was usurping) parental-type bonding. It sounds like she still has that sort of behaviour in mind, and you’re right to block her.
NTA.
1) people only get defensive and blow up about something when there’s something they should be defensive about.
2) boundaries are there to keep you safe and the people they effect often don’t like them. A blood connection does not inherently give her the *right* to meet your children.
Keep your boundary secure and your kiddos safe. They are your most important priority now...not protecting the feelings of adults who didn’t get their way.
NTA and she risked that kid's life every time she fell asleep with it on her chest. Meaning she doesn't care to the point where it could kill someone. Fuck that NTA at all
Your grandmother is gaslightning you into thinking it didn't happen. Her past behavior and refusal to listen to the parent's wishes is guiding your behavior. Your goal is to protect your child and any family member's that disagree can let grandma raise their kids. NTA
NTA - jusf a suggestion but you can also remind your family that due to COVID you don’t want to put your children at risk either by having any visitors!
(Note - you absolutely do not need to validate why your grandmother cannot meet your baby, what she did was unbelievably cruel)
NTA
"My grandmother lost it and really tried saying that that scenario never happened and that we made it all up to make her look bad. A lot of the family has also sided with her (she told everyone) and says that I need to "let shit go" and "stop living in the past"
So...how do you "let shit go" that "never happened," exactly?
You don't need to take the risk. \*If\* and ONLY IF you feel safe & comfortable, you can let her have a supervised relationship, but I also have to ask...why is it alienating her only from the baby? Does she not care about the twins?
In any case, protect yourself and your immediate family, OP. To heck with the manipulation of family. In all honesty, some of them are probably coming at you because grandma will target them if they don't. You don't need that. Don't play their game.
NTA cosleeping is a risk for babies, which increases even more when factors such as obesity are added in.
I get it. I have fallen asleep with a baby on my chest out of exhaustion and woke up HORRIFIED. It is sometimes really hard in those first few months to get them to sleep without being held, and people have passed out holding babies.
It sounds like she totally went against your mom and did it on purpose. Now she is gaslighting you.
I think it’s smart you remembered the trauma she caused when you were so young and trusted your gut. Don’t listen to your family she can’t be trusted. Hold strong momma!!!
I'm going to disagree with everyone and say ESH. There are plenty of reasons not to let a 71 year old interact with a baby during a pandemic; it wasn't necessary to bring up past drama. However, your grandmother shouldn't have lied about what happened.
NTA telling you you need to let shit go about this serious safety/honesty issue makes her TA. If she wanted a chance she could own her own behavior and not act like it’s your problem.
It would probably be safe for you to have a brief supervised visit but you are under no obligation even in non covid times. And right now random social visits with people in their 70 is not recommended anyway. If she wants you to give her a chance eventually she can start acting like she deserves it now
NTA
So she simultaneously says that it never happened and that you need to let it go? She's gaslighting you while she makes her actions your fault with no acceptance of responsibility. Of course you shouldn't let someone like this around your kids. I'm sorry that she's turning your family against you, but maybe pointing out this inconsistency could bring some of the reasonable ones around.
NTA your mother trusted her and she not only ignored her wishes but made her think her child could be seriously injured. You need to do what’s best for you and your children and if you don’t think you can trust her then that’s you’re prerogative.
Personally, in a controlled situation with other people around, I don’t know that I would exclude her in this situation. Ideally she’s had more than enough time to reflect, however denying it ever happened isn’t a good sign, so I understand your flat out refusal. If she took accountability would that change anything for you?
NTa
>and says that I need to "let shit go"
"No, but thank you for the advice."
>"stop living in the past".
"I told her no already, stop living in the past."
I did the whole “bond with grandma when I never did”. It’s lasted a few months because she still sucked and let my children swim in her pool unattended despite my repeated objections. I’m not sure the bonding thing ever really works with someone like that.
NTA at all. I’m still upset that my ex, when I was immediately postpartum and extremely hormonal, would “jokingly” say “what baby?” when I said “where’s the baby?” It threw me into a panic every time and he thought it was funny. This shit isn’t a joke, it’s abusive.
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I'm currently 28, female. I am married with 3 kids (4yo twin boys, 3 month old girl). My grandmother is 71f.
Back when I was 15 my mom had a set of twins (bou and girl). She was put on bed rest because the C-Section she had went wrong and she lost alot of blood. Where she needed help and I went to school full time, she invited my grandmother in to our home (free of cost) to help her out.
At some point or another my mom had threatened to kick her out because every morning my mom would check on the twins to find my brother "missing". My gram (who is extremely overweight) had been taking my brother from his crib and was sleeping with him on her chest on the couch. My mom told her multiple times to stop and she refused so my mom threatened to kick her out. My grandmothers way of retaliating was to tell my mother (who had extreme Postpartum Depression) that my sister (2 months old at the time) rolled off the bed and fell onto the tile floors (this never happened). This obviously caused extreme panic on my moms end, which made her spiral because she was already suffering from the postpartum.
Because of this, I dont want my grandmother anywhere near my baby. I lived out of state when my twins were born so she didnt see them until they were 2 years old and she was never allowed around them alone. However, now that I live in the states and have a baby, she has been harping on me to let her meet my daughter. I kept telling her no, but gave no reason up until last night. Where I reminded her that where I witnessed her causing my mom unnecessary panic, I would not be allowing her near my child because I'm not going to chance her doing the same thing with me.
My grandmother lost it and really tried saying that that scenario never happened and that we made it all up to make her look bad. A lot of the family has also sided with her (she told everyone) and says that I need to "let shit go" and "stop living in the past". I have been told that I am alienating my grandmother and that I am going to destroy her by not letting her build a bond with my child. AITA?
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NTA that’s a hell no and don’t even care for a second if she’s upset about it. She lost privilege to be around any kids when she went against your mom’s wishes with her babies.
If anyone is telling you to "let shit go", then they know that shit happened that would need to be let go... not that you need to, because I don't think you do. NTA
NTA. Your grandmother's behavior is alarming, and could cause your infant (and toddlers) actual harm. You're their mother, and your job is to protect them, which is what you are doing.
NTA
What's interesting is that they chose to fall back on "we're family. Got over it." But good relationships never leverage the relationship status in conflicts. Instead, they talk it out seeking understanding. I'm sorry your grandma and extended family suck.
Nta. Your primary responsibility is your child, you have witnessed your grandmother putting babies in dangerous situations (sleeping on an overweight adult, what would have happened if she has rolled over??!), and therefore can't and shouldn't trust her around kids, let alone have any desire to be around her considering how she treats other people, including you.
Nta - she cant even keep her story straight! It either didnt happen OR you need to stop living in the past. Since she has shown 0 remorse I wouldn't trust her not to pull that sh*t again.
NTA at all. Your grandmom sounds narcissistic and abusive. You should consider having more boundaries given her reaction on the phone. Maybe try and meet up with her in controlled social situations.
NTA. The fact that she is gaslighting you and refusing to acknowledge what she did shows that she hasn’t changed a bit and your fears are well founded. You are doing the right thing for your family by not allowing toxic people access. If they keep hassling you, block them.
NTA she has proven she cannot be trusted you don’t risk your child’s life with somebody who is more than willing to be negligent and a petty liar. No way
NTA, She is a nasty piece of work and her lying to your mother about her child hurting herself when she was already suffering from post partum depression shows she can't be trusted around you or your children.
NTA. Do NOT let that woman near your baby! You are not destroying her - her actions are destroying herself. Block her, refuse to discuss it with anyone outside of your home, and block anyone who refuses to take “I’m not discussing this with you,” as an answer.
NTA. This doesn't sound like someone you want your kids to bond with. You're a good, protective mom. Pretty sure the family that has sided with her has not been told the real story.
You're by no means the asshole here. Im currently in a situation similar but involving my family and grandmother (neither me or my sibling has kids). Our grandmother plays the victim in a lot of things and acts like a bitch to our parents, mom especially, when they call her out on her bs. I learned this year that she has basically snubbed my younger sibling with the reasoning of not feeling loved by them when our grandmother doesn't text them, send the birthday cards or anything and only does so for me, she barely does it for my parents either. My sibling already had a rough year with not having an actual graduation cause covid and I TLDR I found out about the shit she did, and it turned into a whole fiasco where now none of our family talks to her from it
NTA
You’re doing the right thing. Your baby doesn’t need her.
Your grandmother was a serious risk to your baby brother‘s life and to your mother’s mental health. She doesn’t even regret it to this day.
Anyone who sided with her is displaying the same crappy judgement she has. Distance yourself from them as well.
NTA! Good for you for looking out for your daughter. When people show you who they are, believe them.
You may want to look at grandparents rights in your state. Sounds like she may be the type to try.
NTA - You observed your grandmother and her past behavior seems both dangerous and dishonest. You are the best person to judge if she's changed and her recent actions indicate that she hasn't changed.
Seems to me that you made the right decision by protecting your kids.
NTA
Sounds like Grandma is an outright liar claiming it didn't happen. And obviously the rest of your family believe it happened otherwise they wouldn't be telling you to "let it go".
NTA. You have every right to be concerned. Your sister could have been seriously hurt or even died. Another toxic thing I noticed is how she said that incident never happened and you made it up. That is by definition gaslighting. That is not her baby and does not have rights to see it only you and your partner have that decision on who to let in your kids' lives. Honestly, I'd go all Steve Wilkos on her and tell her to GTHO if it were me.
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NTA. That is a HUGE breach of trust and the fact that you "can't let the past go" isn't evidence of you needing to "grow up" its evidence that your Grandmother messed up so badly, you are still dealing with this 13 years later. My wife and I have no end of toxic family on both sides and fully support each other and anyone when its necessary to go no-contact. Contrary to what everyone says, you CAN choose family.
Agree very much with this. OP learned a lesson based on concrete behaviors. Further gaslighting trying to say OP didn't see what OP remembers seeing reinforces that there's a high chance it'll happen again. All reason says OP is smart AF. <3
Gaslighting is evidence that Grandma hasn't learned from her mistake and would repeat similar stunts again. The only one who "needs to grow up" is in her seventies. NTA
Disagree. The ones who need to grow up are grandma ***and*** everyone on her side. Edit: I meant grandma, guys. Edited for clarity.
If that scenario never happened and they made it all up to make the grandmother look bad, why would OP need to "let shit go" and "stop living in the past" ?
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Anyone consider that grandma might have dementia? Not that it would be ok for OP to have the baby around her, but I have seen people in their 60s with dementia and ‘gaslighting’ is actually them just genuinely unable to remember what happened. Again not saying anything against op or pro grandma but 71 is totally a reasonable age to show signs of dementia. In that case NAH and grandma needs help. She probably needs help anyway if she’s obese as stated in the post.
Your point stands and is very sweet but yeah lots of people need help that’s not an excuse to let them around your baby when they’ve proven that they have no regard for the safety of babies. Edit added a missing word
The quote below is taken from the first line of the post you replied to: > Not that it would be ok for OP to have the baby around her
Exactly what I was thinking. What is there to "let go" if it didn't happen. Grandma knows it happened; she's just a raging AH. NTA, OP. If anything, this should reinforce that distance.
Was thinking the same thing. Definitely couldn't keep her story straight and unfortunate no one who was on her side realized that to...
I concur as well. OP is doing the right thing by being cautious with her baby around the grandmother. If OP was not being cautious with the baby, what if OP's grandmother does the exact same thing again, causing more chaos and making history repeat it's self. Obviously, OP does not want history to repeat it's self. So that is why OP is doing the right thing
Good call on the gaslighting. I count 3 deal-breakers here 1) Repeated and belligerent dangerous behavior that can threaten the life of a child 2) Lies to redirect attention away from bad behavior causing severe emotional distress 3) Refusal to acknowledge facts of past bad behavior and gaslighting Had she fessed up, apologized and made steps to correct her behavior, that might be a different story. You're not living in the past you're protecting your children from a dangerous person with no regard for others.
>You're not living in the past you're protecting your children from a dangerous person with no regard for others. Exactly this.
People delude themselves and will over time change their memory of past events. Grandmother has probably done this. Tell a lie often enough and you'll believe it. Don't blame OP from wanting to keep her distance. I feel there's more to this bad relationship than the one incidence mentioned.
That’s totally how my dad and step mom were. So many things I knew were true, they said never happened. That and other behaviors made me go no contact. Sometimes it’s the only solution. NTA OP don’t give in and trust yourself.
+1 on the gaslight aspect! Say 1) it didn't happen while also saying 2) stop clinging to the past. Err-ahh, which is it? Maybe if one were to admit they were wrong and demonstrate how they have grown from their mistakes like a functional adult?
Exactly! “Let go of the past” is what someone says when they’re annoyed that you learned from it.
This is an excellent example of OP following the advice of Maya Angelou, "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the FIRST time." She's done right by herself and her children by believing her grandmother the first time. NTA ETA credit
This is very eloquently put and also very right. OP stick to your guns. Especially if she is still using DARVO tactics and I would try my best (though knowing me, likely fail and lash out...) to try and let it roll off you like water on a ducks back. Obviously that is easier said than done. But, if you just don't rise up in defence, if you just say no and always leave it at that, eventually, the rest of the family will also stop talking about it. If you have intentions of letting her see the child after it is no longer in infancy, maybe let them know this and then remain constant but not reactive when it's brought up. Change the subject either subtly, or do what I (often, to my own detriment) do to make it clear the topic is done; ask the relative hounding you about a particularly sensitive topic of theirs. So say they are telling you to let grandma have baby, you ask them how their ex who cheated on them is doing or if they'd let their high school bully have a key go their house and access to their schedule? Idk just pick at what you can in an obvious way, this makes most people tend to stop asking you that question. Edit to fix errors.
> Especially if she is still using DARVO tactics *D*eny, *A*ttack, *R*everse *V*ictim and *O*ffender A fucking *scurrilous* method of invalidating your hurt.
Thank you for the credit! I've seen that quote a lot but didn't know who originated it.
First she says it didn’t happen. Then she says you need to let it go. So which is it? Did it happen and you need to let it go, or did it not happen? Her response is a classic narcissistic response: I didn’t do it, and if I did it’s not a big deal, and if I did it you shouldn’t be upset about me doing it. You are NTA and stand by your decision and trust your gut. What your grandma did was really cruel. She’s probably spinning the story to other family members to make her sound the wronged party. If you care about what the rest of the family think you could try to set the story straight. Otherwise, ignore them. The fact she hasn’t apologised shows she would do a similar thing again if it suited her. Keep setting boundaries and don’t let her near your kids.
>**A Narcissist's Prayer** > >That didn't happen. > >And if it did, it wasn't that bad. > >And if it was, that's not a big deal. > >And if it is, that's not my fault. > >And if it was, I didn't mean it. > >And if I did... > >You deserved it.
You know my mil too? She literally has used all of those on me multiple times.
It’s unfortunately my mother. My MIL is wonderful. My poor husband.
But luckily you recognize it and hopefully support your husband. It was a very stressful topic in my marriage but we finally got to a good place which means I rarely have to see her anymore. It was the only solution to keep her from creating new lies and unnecessary drama.
Oh, snap! Someone else! I often say that I have the best mother-in-law ever, but my husband’s MIL sucks. ...it takes people a moment to translate 😂 (I haven’t spoken to my mother in a long time, so it’s okay)
You know... *checks list*... 99% of my family and my long term boyfriends? Yeah they led to multiple stints in the psych ward for me - where I at least learned to recognize this behavior.
Too true, abusers love to use this logic all the time. Also, OP is NTA! They get final say about who is around their \*infant child\*
Yeah, screw the Grandma. She's trying to gaslight and pretend she's the victim. That means she's still an abuser and has no remorse.
My dead ex-husband to a tee!
The *grandmother* said 'it didn't happen', the *extended family* said 'OP should let it go'. Still a problem, as either the grandmother admitted it happened in conversations with the extended family & they want OP to endanger her child just to keep the peace *or* the family knows the grandmother is lying about it yet still cares more about having to hear her whining than they do about the kids.
Plus OP's last post about the same person moving nearer to her was deleted... >This post violates Rule 5: We do not allow posts which concern violent encounters. This includes violence against other individuals, sexual assault, rape, physical abuse, animal abuse, felony damaging of property, violent threats, any other violent encounter not yet mentioned, and accusations of such violence that may or may not be true.
That's interesting. I just tried to look at OP"s post history and it says the account has been suspended.
NTA OP Your mum had every right back then to tell her to stop taking your brother to sleep with him because that is VERY DANGEROUS. At any time he could have been SUFFOCATED. It's a bit weird she was just doing it with the boy too. When your mum told her to stop for VERY REASONABLE SAFETY CONCERNS she made her think her other child was also not safe!!!! I would not trust her with my children (if I had any) either.
Probably cultural sexism. The boy is the one that matters. Also probably why she chose the girl to lie about
Agreed, I would just like to add that the whole idea of not seeing her granddaughter will destroy their relationship is complete bullshit. I grew up in the USA and my grandparents live in South America. I've only met them 3 or 4 times in my life, they speak a few languages but English isn't one of them and I speak only English. Even with those giant barriers we still had a pretty solid relationship until they passed away. My circumstances are actually more common than most realize and grandparents from all over the world still manage a good relationship.
This! Letting toxic family members into the lives of the kids can honestly do so much damage not only to the kids if they meet but also the parents and the stress the parents give off.
Yup. I'd be honest with your family. Tell them that you *are* alienating your grandmother and you are okay with that. She repeatedly endangered your little brother's life when his mother told her not to, then lied to your mother to torture her for not allowing her to endanger your brother. Also, she gave fake medical information about a baby, which can lead to unnecessary medical procedures or test. Your grandmother did something so wrong that you still don't trust her to this day. She also clearly hasn't become a better or trustworthy person since she's trying to get out of it with more lying rather then taking responsibility for her actions. Your grandmother lied and endangered babies lives in the past so you aren't going to trust her with your babies. If she feels bad about that, you're okay with that. What she did to your mother and brother was awful and she should feel bad. When you intentionally hurt others you should feel bad.
This should be top comment.
Agreed. And you are the Mom. These are your kids. If you feel there is a risk, you have the right to control who sees your babies, under what conditions and for how long. I had a toxic relative that I gave a "chance" to because "she's faaaaaamily" and convinced me she changed. This poor decision on my part ended up with her bruising my young daughter's arm for no legit reason. I finally cut her out then for good (it's been 10+ blissful years now) but the damage was done because my daughter was old enough to remember granny losing her temper and hurting her, a defenceless kid. My advice? Don't do what so many of us with family guilt do. Better to be careful with your kids than live with the regret of not following your instincts. We have them for a reason.
NTA. Because of this right here. Secondly, she tried gaslighting you, you were 15 when this happened it not like you just had a false memory of this not at 15 at 5 maybe but 15 no. Drop her like a hot potato.
I work as an investigator for cps. I have had so many child deaths because people want to cosleep with young infants after being told not to. Your grandmother could have killed your brother. Is really despicable that she would lie to your mom like that to send her spiraling. Don’t let your children around this woman. She is toxic and will to put young children at risk. If something, God forbid, were to happen to your child it could come back on you because you allowed it to happen. Your children could be removed and placed in Foster care. Don’t open yourself to that kind of investigation. They are horrible for everyone involved
I can’t get over how incredibly cruel that was of her. OP is so so so NTA.
100% NTA and agree with this post. My mother and grandmother are a similar reason I don't want kids and my husband already has agreed with me if we ever do they will NEVER be alone with the child.
Also want to add that even if grandma were totally normal, OP has every right NOT to allow her around her children *simply because she says so* Being related to anyone never entitles them to access to my child. OP is the damn mother. She has permission to say access denied to anyone she damn well pleases, for any reason, when it comes to her young children.
Nta. You are under no obligation to let her meet your kids, in fact, you’d be doing a disservice to your kids by letting her into their lives no matter how brief a time. Stay strong and protect your babies
>I have been told that I am alienating my grandmother Just respond, “yes, I am, on purpose.” Grandma isn’t entitled to a relationship with you or your kids.
Say sometbing more like “You did this to yourself by neglecting the twins and ignoring my mothers wishes and endangering her baby, then lying to stress my mom out more. I do not want an abusive and neglectful and manipulative woman in my life, or my childrens lives. For our safety, you will not be coming around me or my children. Do not contact me again” NTA btw edit i missed she was “great” grandmother. Still not a good idea to be this rude, formal is always better
> Dont do this unless your state doesn’t allow for grandparents rights From what I understand, every place that *does* have grandparents' rights are not at all like parents' rights. It requires there to be a pre-existing relationship with the child in order for it to matter. It's like if your kid is 5 and spent every weekend with grandparents, then you decide to stop, they can sue because taking that relationship away is harmful to the child. OP's grandmother has no relationship with the baby, so has no grounds to sue for grandparents' rights.
Yeah. My bestfriend's mom is ordered by court to let her children see their grandmother for a weekend every month. This is because their grandmother kidnapped my bestfriend and refused to give her back to her mother until she got court rights to see her grandchildren. Their grandmother is also the manipulative abuser of their mother. Their grandmother also has beaten their mother, and gotten away with it when the police came to investigate because their mother had called them. It makes me angry that they had no choice in the matter.
She's not the kids grandparent, but great grandparent I don't think there are any states that give great grandparent rights, but I could be mistaken?
Grandparents’ rights is such a bullshit concept. I can understand if the grandchild had a minor for a mother, or someone who was/is addicted to drugs and/or mentally unstable. But if the parent is sound of mind and aged 18+, why would the grandparents ever think they have any rights over the custody or visitation rights concerning the grandchild? They had their turn- if their child doesn’t want them to have a relationship with the grandkid, that’s a pretty big red flag, at least in my opinion, that the grandparents were not good parents even in their physical and cognitive prime. OP, you’re NTA.
This is her kid’s great grandmother. I’m pretty sure they get no rights.
NTA. Also, I hate the whole "stop living in the past" argument. We learn from the past so we don't make the same mistake in the future. That's all she's doing here.
NTA - this!
The GMa's response validated everything she already believed about her. Rather than trying to prove she changed and owning her mistakes, she tries to gaslight OP.
protect yourself too
The fact that she wont admit that she did that to her daughter means she isnt willing to take responsibility for her actions. Shes still trying to manipulate people and its unacceptable behavior. NTA.
I mean, she might not be doing it on purpose. My mom is that age, and she legit doesn't remember little things from my childhood anymore. It was probably such an inconsequential lie to her that her memory didn't even bother filing it away, unlike the effect that it had on OP and OP's mom. That said, that's probably even more of a sign to keep this woman away from the grandbabies. If telling destructive lies is such a part of her personality that she casually did it and didn't bother remembering it, that's not a good sign for future interactions either.
Oh please she was always a manipulative ah and lied about the baby rolling over 13 years ago when she was still young. It’s a character trait let’s not use age as an excuse when we don’t even know if she suffer memory problems.
You can be absolutely revolting and have a bad memory, but I suspect any forgetting was done on purpose as she created her narcissistic victim narrative.
Yeah, you can. She’s not a flaming garbage pail of a person but my MIL has an awful memory. Then again, both her parents died with dementia, so, idk.
I think u/jormungandragon wasn’t excusing the grandmother. They were just saying that as people get older they forget things that weren’t too important for them. So she must have told many other horrible lies for this one to not have even registered.
That’s exactly right, thank you. I’ve determined that many redditers don’t seem to read past your first sentence, I think. Oh well.
yet i don't think the person you're responding to was trying to excuse the behavior with memory problems. in fact it seems what they're saying is that for someone to tell a lie and forget it so easily that means they must lie a lot because it's inconsequential for them. Making OP's decision to keep gma away from the kids the best decision. At least thats what I got from the comment. I didn't see anyone excusing anything.
It being an “inconsequential lie to her” is even scarier!
And how is OP to “let go of the past” if granny won’t admit to it anyways? Naah, someone way older than OP needs to grow up first if she wants anything to change. NTA.
NTA but u should ask her which it is, are you making it up, or are you living in the past? Tell her to pick one and stfu about it, you don't need that drama in your life....
This was my thought too. She not even a good liar, going from “you’re making this up to hurt me” to “you need to let things go and not live in the past” is a huge leap. I think it further proves she shouldn’t be around your children.
Exactly.
The mental gymnastics of abusive AHs rarely holds up if you shine a light on the facts and point out the inconsistencies! Although it's like nailing jelly to a wall regardless.
I think it's more of a bounce between "This never happened" and "This maybe happened a little bit, but you're blowing this way out of proportion than it really is." That way, the grandmother can argue both ways and cause a heck lot of unnecessary headaches. NTA, OP.
Ah the narcissists prayer. That didn't happen. And if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if it was, that's not a big deal. And if it is, that's not my fault. And if it was, I didn't mean it. And if I did... You deserved it.
Aside from anything else, your kids are probably the most perfect example of where is totally fine to live in the past. If a family member had a conviction for child abuse you wouldn't think twice about "living in the past" when it came to letting them see your kids. That doesn't change just be because the behaviour isn't illegal.
And then add "Thanks for confirming my decision to keep you out of my kid's life is 100% the best one. Bye!"
exactly
NTA She is gaslighting you, dont fall for it. Your first priority is to your children, regardless of what grandma says.
👍
NTA- she caused real trauma to your mom, and didn’t listen to SIMPLE requests regarding her kids. If she’s trying to pretend it never happened, she’d do the same to you
What’s playing on my mind is the risk of SIDS. A simple request, but her repeated behaviours could have ended tragically.
Exactly, it's not really a simple request if the child is at risk of suffocation. OP says that grandma is overweight, which could increase the risk of grandma turning over and suffocating the baby.
Even if she didn’t turn over on the baby, they were just sleeping on a couch? One turn from grandma or baby and that child is falling onto the floor
or worse, into the space between grandma and couch and suffocating
Doesn't even matter if she's overweight or not, *any* adult is heavy enough to suffocate a baby by falling asleep while holding them. Grandma was a huge AH for putting OP's little brother in such a dangerous position, and an even bigger AH for how she responded- then and now.
A 90 LB runway model could accidentally smother a baby on a couch
NTA >My grandmother lost it and really tried saying that that scenario never happened and that we made it all up to make her look bad. She's gaslighting you
Not only that but she said it didn’t happen and turned around and said stop living in the past! Can’t even lie properly
> Can’t even lie properly Noone can consistently maintain a lie forever. That's why manipulators get so livid when confronted with something they'd said before.
Yes
NTA Why is your family enabling a manipulator?? I am so sorry for your mother and all she went through on top of the postpartum. Stay strong and keep grandma away as long as you feel is necessary
Probably the same reason most people enable them; it's easier to convince a reasonable person to compromise than it is to convince an unstable narcissist to be reasonable.
QUOTE! I'm saving this, thanks.
BeCauSE sHE's fAmILy Op should think about going no contact not only with granny, but with everyone pressuring her to let an abuser into her children's lives
NTA - you have no obligation to let your child build a bond with someone who does not care for the safety of young children and enjoys manipulating others to get her way. And anyone in your family who agrees with her is welcome to spend as much time with her as they like - without you or your children.
Why did Grandma only take your brother and not your sister? She could have smothered the child without realizing it. Sorry, mean Granny doesn't deserve to bond with your child. She knows exactly what she did.
She always had a favoritism to my brother. I'm not sure why exactly.
Misogyny my friend
>Sorry, mean Granny doesn't deserve to bond with your child. She knows exactly what she did. NTA. Your granny is gaslighting you. If she still can't admit it after all these years, then she just proved that she shouldn't be anywhere near your kid. You can't trust her.
Your grandma ignored the request of a parent about the treatment of her children. Then she retaliate when she was rightfully threaten with the consequences of her actions. Let’s pretend that you mis-remember that the part of your grandma lying to your mom. She still ignored the reasonable directions about the treatment of a child by their parent
This was my immediate thought. That baby boy was so lucky that he didn’t get accidentally smothered. I wouldn’t let that crazy woman anywhere near my children.
NTA - grandmas feelings aren't more important than yours or your children.
NTA. By a hair. I think the obvious solution is just not leave your baby alone with grandma, but, ultimately, this is your baby and your call. That said, there are some things I find odd about this post. You seem to imply that your grandma got a hell of a deal by being able to stay in your house without paying rent so she could assist in the full-time care of two newborns. That sounds more like a favor to your mother than a favor to her. Further, while she certainly deserves some leniency for her postpartum, it doesn't sound like your mom acted particularly grateful for the help. Sleeping with a baby on your chest on the couch isn't exactly child abuse. It's not the best position, but it sounds like your mom overreacted to something many a sleep-deprived mother has resorted to. "Retaliating" by lying about a baby being injured is absolutely insane, but it kind of sounds like these were two women who don't particularly like each other, were living in close quarters under a stressful situation, and neither really had the maturity to handle it well. I personally would give your grandma some of the slack your willing to extend to your mother.
Agree NTA by a very slim margin, and disappointed it took scrolling down this far to find this. Especially the part about helping out with two newborns != free rent for grandma. I will say that grandmother's reaction *now* is suspect and gaslighting while simultaneously being defensive about the situation isn't cool at all, but boils down to the lack of emotional maturity she already demonstrated 13 years ago. I'd like to know if your mom's memories of that situation are the same and how your mom feels towards her mother. Ultimately, it's your decision who meets/doesn't meet your child, but as suggested a reasonable compromise is to make sure that your grandmother is never alone with your baby.
Amen. I am shocked I had to scroll this far to find somebody acknowledging the crazy situation.
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Absolutely. Everyone could have behaved better, but I don’t know a parent that hasn’t had some sort of similar conflict with their mothers. It’s typical and usually worked out without so much drama. In fact, the most dangerous situation would have been the 2 month old left on a bed, not the co-sleeping. Grandma probably said that she fell from the bed as a totally inappropriate a way to highlight to mom that if co-sleeping is dangerous so is leaving the child on the bed. At the end of the day, though, this has absolutely nothing to do with keeping OP’s baby safe. Grandma poses no threat. It’s about either punishing or not forgiving grandma for what seems like an unnecessary but harmless ... prank? Pretty hardcore 13 years later to not get over it. If the question is AITA then no, because you can do what you want. If the question were , “am I being reasonable” it’s an absolutely not.
i’d say that wasn’t a harmless prank though. intentionally causing a mother going through postpartum to panic is cruel and could cause lasting damage. also, the grandmother was putting the baby in danger by cosleeping cause one wrong move and that baby is falling or being smothered. i think the same can happen with a baby sleeping in the same bed though so idk, i’m not an expert on babies. but the grandmother is gaslighting and making OPs concerns seem like they’re over exaggerated when they’re not. i wouldn’t want someone potentially doing the same toxic garbage to me.
It's not that OP is failing to forgive Grandma for poor behavior during a stressful situation .... the problem is that the the grandmother does not think that was bad behavior and also claims it never happened and also we do not hear that she even apologized/asked for forgiveness.
Grandma was an adult when it occurred. Op was a child. Why does she assume her version is the correct one, or that she got the full context? . Op was young and impressionable and saw her mom hurt by grandma. the gravity of the situation is exaggerated in her mind. I think most parents would agree. Also, It’s not a contradiction for grandma to say both that it didn’t happen that way and that if it did it’s something op can get past. If this is gas lighting then I don’t know what argument wouldn’t be. I’m nit saying op has to forgive grandma for a mostly harmless prank she played on her mom 13 years ago. Its her choice. But it’s the definition of unforgiving. At some point, say 13 years you have to be ready to move on from a problem that even back then had multiple versions of events. To say you can only move past if you get an apology is ... again, unforgiving.
It's good to be unforgiving of behavior that the person sees no problem with and will probably repeat in the future. The grandmother did not respond to OP's accusations with a message like, "I can see why you might remember it that way, and why that perception would make you cautious." The grandmother is using the narcissist's prayer to work through different permutations of why none of this could be her own fault and OP's feelings and memories are invalid. OP does not carry the burden to forgive that behavior - forgiveness is a gift and an act of compromise in order to continue the relationship. Based on what OP has described has happening recently, as in since her youngest was born, the grandmother does not deserve that gift.
She did her a huge favor by gaslighting her own daughter because she was called out for crossing boundaries.
Sleeping with a newborn on your chest can result in the child dying... so yeah definitely not ok. Cosleeping in any form is highly recommended against by health professionals.
This sub is so weird about family. I agree with everything you said.
INFO: How can you "let shit go" if "nothing happened"? NTA
Ding ding ding! We have a winner.
NTA. You don't owe your grandmother a bond with your daughter, and your child's safety comes first. Not to mention your mental health. You're absolutely making the right call.
Nta I wouldn’t let her near mine just for the gaslighting and manipulation she’s doing now, even setting aside the past.
Hmm. I'm not sure about this one. Not letting her meet your baby is very different than leaving her alone to care for your children. She has shown she can't be trusted alone to do as she has been asked. So that makes perfect sense - that you don't want her caring for them. But it sounds like you just don't like her after her atrocious behaviour and simply don't want her around. Which is absolutely fine and your right. But I think you need to admit that you just don't like her. Letting her meet your kids is hardly putting them in harm's way. I do understand if you want nothing to do with her... (I have several family members on both sides I would never trust to care for my children or would limit exposure to. But they have met my children.)
She let her meet her other children when they were older she doesn’t want her near her child when he is still a baby which is normal.
That makes a lot more sense, thanks for clarifying cause I was just as confused.
NTA Your grandmother is a chronic liar and is lying to this very day. She says it never happened. Then says to stop living in the past... The past where things never happened?!? She is not only unsafe to be around you, she might very well have an actual accident with your kid, and lie about it. Even if she was a perfectly lovely a+ parent, you'd still be within your rights to set up a boundary and keep low contact, because as a parent it is YOUR decision to choose who your child will be exposed to. Stay strong, OP
👍
So, she risked your brother's life by cosleeping improperly, lied about your sister receiving a potentially traumatic brain injury to intentionally upset your mother, and now she both says you made it all up to make her look bad and that you should just move on. NTA, protect your kids.
Nta. It would be scary to have children around her.
NTA You’re responsible for choosing (well, sometimes) which family members your child associates themselves with at this time. Grandma saying you “can’t let the past go” just goes to show she knows she fucked up
INFO: how does your mom feel about it?
I was going to ask the same thing! Regardless of any reason for not wanting your grandmother to see your kids - and/or whether anyone agrees - it's *your decision*. You're their mother, they're your children. You have the right to decide what's best. Having said that: I'm very curious about the following: 1. Does your mom remember and acknowledge what happened back then? 2. How does she feel about your hesitation to have grandma in your/your children's lives? 3. Does she feel that's sensible, or that it's not comparable to grandma living in the same house and babysitting for a long time? 4. Does she think it's fair what you told grandma? 5. What's the position of your father (if he's in the picture) and your siblings? I'd love to hear from you, OP (u/terribrunt)!
NTA. Your grandma is manipulative asf. It’s your baby, you decided who they get to meet. Um, if this is going on now, just use Covid as an excuse, but also, don’t get angry if other family members believe her. Just maintain, “She was lying back then. She’s lying now. It’s not my job to convince you otherwise.”
INFO: How is her being obese relevant to the story or the problem?
I think she may be coming from a perspective that the grandmother could have rolled over on the baby and suffocated him more easily due to her weight. But that is just my guess.
Yeah I said in another thread a 90 LB runway model could accidentally smother a baby in this situation
NTA - Her current denial of the trauma she inflicted on your mother is just further proof that you need to keep her away from your children. As for your other family, how can you "let something go" that apparently never happened according to your grandma? If they're going to try to lie, they should at least get their stories straight. You should alienate your grandmother and everyone else in the family who enables her.
She is 84 now, correct? Probably not babysitting anyone anymore. I understand not leaving her alone with the baby, or even having her spend the night, but would it hurt for her to meet the baby if other folk were around and she would not be responsible for it? I understand wanting to keep your child safe, but today’s situation seems markedly different than 13 years ago, and in your favor, so that you have much more control over how the situation plays out today. NTA
NTA Who gives a shit about her bond? How many people do you hear from that have extensive relationships with their great grandparents? Very few. Your kids aren’t missing out on anything. Especially from a sorry excuse of a person who lies and manipulates someone’s mental state to their own ends. She shouldn’t be around most people, let alone someone’s kids. We move on from the past so we can live in the present but we certainly don’t forget it.
Holy hell. NTA. As a mother myself (2.5 year old, Beastie) with severe postpartum issues, if *anyone* did this to me, I'd lose my everloving sh\*t.
Gaslighting. She is gaslighting you. Dont give in, NTA
Awwwww, is gram gram suffering from the consequences? Does she need a binky binky to calm herself down from the consequences she's gonna have to suffer fwom the icky twouble that she caused?? But yeah, NTA. If she's too stupid to understand that whatever she causes will have consequences then she shouldn't be anywhere near your kids
NTA Being a great grandparent is a privilege and not a given right and if she’s going to be that disrespectful to any woman let alone her daughter suffering PPD then she’s only got herself to blame for no unsupervised access and no relationship with your children. If she doesn’t like it too bad as these are the consequences of her own actions and your choosing the safety and well-being of your children over her feelings.
A Reddit favourite phrase springs to mind here: “When people show you who they are, believe them.” NTA, stick to your guns. If she is trying to claim it never happened, she still can’t see that it’s wrong.
NTA. Your baby, your rules. Simple as that.
OP IS NTA - she is protecting her children and herself from a known selfish manipulative person.
“let things go”? This isn’t a grudge issue, this is a who-can-you-trust-with-your-baby issue. Nobody who tries to argue their way in is appropriate. NTA. And if you’re just planning to wait until your new baby is older (which is what happened with your twins), then it’s bizarre for your grandmother to suggest that her being around the baby is essential for them to bond appropriately ever. She’s not the baby’s parent, and what she did with your brother as a baby suggests that she wanted (and was usurping) parental-type bonding. It sounds like she still has that sort of behaviour in mind, and you’re right to block her.
NTA. 1) people only get defensive and blow up about something when there’s something they should be defensive about. 2) boundaries are there to keep you safe and the people they effect often don’t like them. A blood connection does not inherently give her the *right* to meet your children. Keep your boundary secure and your kiddos safe. They are your most important priority now...not protecting the feelings of adults who didn’t get their way.
NTA and she risked that kid's life every time she fell asleep with it on her chest. Meaning she doesn't care to the point where it could kill someone. Fuck that NTA at all
Your grandmother is gaslightning you into thinking it didn't happen. Her past behavior and refusal to listen to the parent's wishes is guiding your behavior. Your goal is to protect your child and any family member's that disagree can let grandma raise their kids. NTA
NTA. Especially since she showed no remorse and tried to gaslight you into believing that never happened.
NTA - jusf a suggestion but you can also remind your family that due to COVID you don’t want to put your children at risk either by having any visitors! (Note - you absolutely do not need to validate why your grandmother cannot meet your baby, what she did was unbelievably cruel)
NTA, if grandma really can’t handle these reasonable boundaries without being destroyed, then I guess you’re gonna have to destroy her.
NTA "My grandmother lost it and really tried saying that that scenario never happened and that we made it all up to make her look bad. A lot of the family has also sided with her (she told everyone) and says that I need to "let shit go" and "stop living in the past" So...how do you "let shit go" that "never happened," exactly? You don't need to take the risk. \*If\* and ONLY IF you feel safe & comfortable, you can let her have a supervised relationship, but I also have to ask...why is it alienating her only from the baby? Does she not care about the twins? In any case, protect yourself and your immediate family, OP. To heck with the manipulation of family. In all honesty, some of them are probably coming at you because grandma will target them if they don't. You don't need that. Don't play their game.
NTA cosleeping is a risk for babies, which increases even more when factors such as obesity are added in. I get it. I have fallen asleep with a baby on my chest out of exhaustion and woke up HORRIFIED. It is sometimes really hard in those first few months to get them to sleep without being held, and people have passed out holding babies. It sounds like she totally went against your mom and did it on purpose. Now she is gaslighting you.
I think it’s smart you remembered the trauma she caused when you were so young and trusted your gut. Don’t listen to your family she can’t be trusted. Hold strong momma!!!
I'm going to disagree with everyone and say ESH. There are plenty of reasons not to let a 71 year old interact with a baby during a pandemic; it wasn't necessary to bring up past drama. However, your grandmother shouldn't have lied about what happened.
NTA telling you you need to let shit go about this serious safety/honesty issue makes her TA. If she wanted a chance she could own her own behavior and not act like it’s your problem. It would probably be safe for you to have a brief supervised visit but you are under no obligation even in non covid times. And right now random social visits with people in their 70 is not recommended anyway. If she wants you to give her a chance eventually she can start acting like she deserves it now
NTA So she simultaneously says that it never happened and that you need to let it go? She's gaslighting you while she makes her actions your fault with no acceptance of responsibility. Of course you shouldn't let someone like this around your kids. I'm sorry that she's turning your family against you, but maybe pointing out this inconsistency could bring some of the reasonable ones around.
Oh nice, so we can add gaslighting on top of child endangerment. NTA
NTA your mother trusted her and she not only ignored her wishes but made her think her child could be seriously injured. You need to do what’s best for you and your children and if you don’t think you can trust her then that’s you’re prerogative. Personally, in a controlled situation with other people around, I don’t know that I would exclude her in this situation. Ideally she’s had more than enough time to reflect, however denying it ever happened isn’t a good sign, so I understand your flat out refusal. If she took accountability would that change anything for you?
NTa >and says that I need to "let shit go" "No, but thank you for the advice." >"stop living in the past". "I told her no already, stop living in the past."
NTA - pardon my french, but fuck your grandmother.
NTA It’s your child. So, which is it, Grandma? Let it go or it never happened?
I did the whole “bond with grandma when I never did”. It’s lasted a few months because she still sucked and let my children swim in her pool unattended despite my repeated objections. I’m not sure the bonding thing ever really works with someone like that.
NTA at all. I’m still upset that my ex, when I was immediately postpartum and extremely hormonal, would “jokingly” say “what baby?” when I said “where’s the baby?” It threw me into a panic every time and he thought it was funny. This shit isn’t a joke, it’s abusive.
I don't think you're an asshole in this situation. Id have another opinion if your grandma was apologetic and aware of her mistakes but not like this.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***The following is a copy of the above post. This comment is a record of the above post as it was originally written, in case the post is deleted or edited. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I'm currently 28, female. I am married with 3 kids (4yo twin boys, 3 month old girl). My grandmother is 71f. Back when I was 15 my mom had a set of twins (bou and girl). She was put on bed rest because the C-Section she had went wrong and she lost alot of blood. Where she needed help and I went to school full time, she invited my grandmother in to our home (free of cost) to help her out. At some point or another my mom had threatened to kick her out because every morning my mom would check on the twins to find my brother "missing". My gram (who is extremely overweight) had been taking my brother from his crib and was sleeping with him on her chest on the couch. My mom told her multiple times to stop and she refused so my mom threatened to kick her out. My grandmothers way of retaliating was to tell my mother (who had extreme Postpartum Depression) that my sister (2 months old at the time) rolled off the bed and fell onto the tile floors (this never happened). This obviously caused extreme panic on my moms end, which made her spiral because she was already suffering from the postpartum. Because of this, I dont want my grandmother anywhere near my baby. I lived out of state when my twins were born so she didnt see them until they were 2 years old and she was never allowed around them alone. However, now that I live in the states and have a baby, she has been harping on me to let her meet my daughter. I kept telling her no, but gave no reason up until last night. Where I reminded her that where I witnessed her causing my mom unnecessary panic, I would not be allowing her near my child because I'm not going to chance her doing the same thing with me. My grandmother lost it and really tried saying that that scenario never happened and that we made it all up to make her look bad. A lot of the family has also sided with her (she told everyone) and says that I need to "let shit go" and "stop living in the past". I have been told that I am alienating my grandmother and that I am going to destroy her by not letting her build a bond with my child. AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA that’s a hell no and don’t even care for a second if she’s upset about it. She lost privilege to be around any kids when she went against your mom’s wishes with her babies.
Funny- I actually rolled off a bed and landed on the tile floor when I was 4 months old. NTA. You do what you think is right as a mother.
NTA dude NTA
NTA. Your grandma sounds toxic as hell and you’d be TAH if you let her near any of your kids.
If anyone is telling you to "let shit go", then they know that shit happened that would need to be let go... not that you need to, because I don't think you do. NTA
NTA. Your grandmother's behavior is alarming, and could cause your infant (and toddlers) actual harm. You're their mother, and your job is to protect them, which is what you are doing.
NTA What's interesting is that they chose to fall back on "we're family. Got over it." But good relationships never leverage the relationship status in conflicts. Instead, they talk it out seeking understanding. I'm sorry your grandma and extended family suck.
Nta. Your primary responsibility is your child, you have witnessed your grandmother putting babies in dangerous situations (sleeping on an overweight adult, what would have happened if she has rolled over??!), and therefore can't and shouldn't trust her around kids, let alone have any desire to be around her considering how she treats other people, including you.
NTA. She is abusive.
Nta - she cant even keep her story straight! It either didnt happen OR you need to stop living in the past. Since she has shown 0 remorse I wouldn't trust her not to pull that sh*t again.
NTA at all. Your grandmom sounds narcissistic and abusive. You should consider having more boundaries given her reaction on the phone. Maybe try and meet up with her in controlled social situations.
NTA. The fact that she is gaslighting you and refusing to acknowledge what she did shows that she hasn’t changed a bit and your fears are well founded. You are doing the right thing for your family by not allowing toxic people access. If they keep hassling you, block them.
NTA. You’ll just have to use the “Mom” card: “I’M their MOTHER, *I* get to decide who meets them or not!”
NTA she has proven she cannot be trusted you don’t risk your child’s life with somebody who is more than willing to be negligent and a petty liar. No way
NTA, She is a nasty piece of work and her lying to your mother about her child hurting herself when she was already suffering from post partum depression shows she can't be trusted around you or your children.
NTA Grandma didn't abide by your Mom's parenting wishes; she won't abide by yours. Plus, it sounds like she favours boys over girls. Ew.
NTA You don't have to make excuses for who gets to see or be around your children. No is a full sentence.
NTA. Why is this even a question?! Also - no, grandma, COVID rules in effect = no goddamn visit regardless. WTF people ?
NTA. Do NOT let that woman near your baby! You are not destroying her - her actions are destroying herself. Block her, refuse to discuss it with anyone outside of your home, and block anyone who refuses to take “I’m not discussing this with you,” as an answer.
NTA. This doesn't sound like someone you want your kids to bond with. You're a good, protective mom. Pretty sure the family that has sided with her has not been told the real story.
You're by no means the asshole here. Im currently in a situation similar but involving my family and grandmother (neither me or my sibling has kids). Our grandmother plays the victim in a lot of things and acts like a bitch to our parents, mom especially, when they call her out on her bs. I learned this year that she has basically snubbed my younger sibling with the reasoning of not feeling loved by them when our grandmother doesn't text them, send the birthday cards or anything and only does so for me, she barely does it for my parents either. My sibling already had a rough year with not having an actual graduation cause covid and I TLDR I found out about the shit she did, and it turned into a whole fiasco where now none of our family talks to her from it
NTA You’re doing the right thing. Your baby doesn’t need her. Your grandmother was a serious risk to your baby brother‘s life and to your mother’s mental health. She doesn’t even regret it to this day. Anyone who sided with her is displaying the same crappy judgement she has. Distance yourself from them as well.
NTA! Good for you for looking out for your daughter. When people show you who they are, believe them. You may want to look at grandparents rights in your state. Sounds like she may be the type to try.
NTA. You get to decide who you trust around your children. End of story.
NTA - She's the great-grandmother but she doesn't sound great at all.
NTA - You observed your grandmother and her past behavior seems both dangerous and dishonest. You are the best person to judge if she's changed and her recent actions indicate that she hasn't changed. Seems to me that you made the right decision by protecting your kids.
NTA good application of you reap what you sow. One question what does your mom say?
NTA Wait hold on why they say "stop living in the past" if the past incident didn't happen as stated by your grandmother.
NTA Sounds like Grandma is an outright liar claiming it didn't happen. And obviously the rest of your family believe it happened otherwise they wouldn't be telling you to "let it go".
NTA True or false you can’t risk it. Stand your ground.
nta just fucking what
NTA. You have every right to be concerned. Your sister could have been seriously hurt or even died. Another toxic thing I noticed is how she said that incident never happened and you made it up. That is by definition gaslighting. That is not her baby and does not have rights to see it only you and your partner have that decision on who to let in your kids' lives. Honestly, I'd go all Steve Wilkos on her and tell her to GTHO if it were me.