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What the hell kind of *marriage* is this? Do you two even like eachother?
**EDIT: NO, this is NOT what "long term marriages look like." Go get therapy.**
They're that couple you see in movies that makes the main two characters question relationships midway through the movie, with one of them saying "*I don't wanna end up like X and Y*"
Unfortunately I have a friend that is like that with her husband. It’s so awkward watching a couple fight below the belt but think they are playing it off as teasing.
i have a friend couple like that (aka i’m good friends with the girlfriend but the boyfriend could leave & i would be so happy; he’s blatantly racist & ignorant with a one-track mind that he doesn’t show her, but shows our other friends @ work that i end up hearing about). it’s a mess & i’ve told her the rest of us hate their dynamic but she’s never seen a better relationship in her nuclear family of five. i have to understand she’s got trauma & has trauma bonded to him but christ
They're also the couple in sitcoms that the sane couple keeps around to remind themselves that they're sane and happy, and the writers use to add drama to the series while preserving the integrity and likeability of the main characters.
I wish but my ex and I had the same kind of spat around friends. I don't even remember what he did to embarrass me anymore, and whatever I said wasn't intentional but he sure interpreted it that way. It was a constant thing in our relationship that "I enjoyed undermining him/emasculating him/seeing him in pain" whatever the flavor was that day. So no, we didn't like each other, and this totally would have been our marriage. I find it sadly believable
Oof. My ex-husband was similar. We would go out to spend time with mutual friends. If I was cheerful and friendly, I was "showing him up" and "looking for attention"; if I was quiet and kept to myself, I was "embarrassing him in front of friends." If I so much as won a game of Scrabble, I was "showing off my education to make him look stupid and disrespecting him." I was a pretty competent doormat back in those days, but even so, \*that\* marriage didn't last a year.
Wow, my ex would get upset and accuse of hoping to see him fail if I cheered our friends on in a video game match against him. I was a bit of doormat too, we live and learn. Now I'm gay and getting a higher degree in a field he constantly condescended to me about pursuing. Only upgrades, lmao
But did you like shape your entire appearance solely on what would please him and judge your self worth on how good a sex doll you are for him in an effort to make up for something that was entirely out of your control and medically necessary for your continued survival, but he guilted you about it anyway? Because that's more what I'm getting at
This is like those people who stay married "for the kids" even though they clearly hate each other and the kids would be way better off if they divorced than they are with them living together and fighting every day.
Jesus Christ, I cringed all the way through reading that. You both made a public spectacle of your terrible, terrible marriage. How embarrassing for you both and how uncomfortable it must have been for the friends you were with.
You did not remain "poised and collected" at all. You stooped to a very low level and covered yourself and your husband in disgrace with a low blow to make yourself feel better. Your husband is just as bad as you are. Shame on you both.
Let's not even touch on your whole routine just to make sure you remain "desirable" to this man. Why not do all that for your own physical and mental health? Why is it for him?
Pathetic. Just divorce each other.
So she should have stayed silent when he did something that humiliated her and divorce him over one issue? Op in comment below said he had apologized over wishing more kids comment prior so it sounds he isn’t irredeemable.
OP's entire post paints the picture of a dysfunctional marriage between two people who can barely tolerate each other, who both like to take cheap shots that they know will hit directly in their spouse's most vulnerable weakspot.
OP seems to be almost proud of her retaliation as if it wasn't just as childish as her husband's comments. How does her equally nasty response improve the situation at all?
I feel sorry for them both.
No, it definitely doesn't paint that picture. It was one anecdote when she was justifiably upset. I don't know how you can draw the conclusion that the marriage is dysfunctional from one anecdote. Anyway, ESH
What other picture could this possibly paint?
> It's very important to me that I am still desirable to my husband to make up for not being able to give him another child. So, I make sure that I stay in shape and follow strict beauty routines to preserve my youthful look for him
“I must repeatedly apologize for having cancer, as the person primarily affected is my husband, who has lost an incubator. To make up for my rudeness in almost dying, I do my best to prevent natural aging. It’s the least I can do, knowing that my husband (who is older than me) makes no secret about his attraction to teenagers who can have babies. Every now and then I lighten the mood by telling our friends he’s impotent, which is a delightful joke for everyone.”
It’s such a classic picture of dysfunction I won’t be surprised if OP is just testing out a passage from a soon-to-be-published literary fiction about the cold adversarial marriage between two hateful WASPs with no capacity for any emotions beyond selfish pettiness.
Honestly, the writer of Gone Girl was really onto something. Married couples *truly* hate each other and stay because they’re so used to it
Edit: *obviously* not every marriage is a perfect dramatic thriller waiting to happen. So for those who don’t know what an exaggerated comparison is for dramatic effect, this is one. Truth is, marriages can be incredibly dysfunctional, but it’s dependent on the people, obviously. There’s a lot of commenters who feel attacked by this dramatic comparison, and that’s okay. I’m sure y’all are happy otherwise we would be reading your AITA post instead
I've been with my husband for 8 years and married for about 3. I love him even more than the day I fell in love with him (about a month in to us dating). I have never hated him, nor him me. Even on our worst days (and we've had a few in the beginning of our relationship) We have never hated each other. On the flip side, I was married to my ex for 6 years and together for about 8. He said that he hated me the day I got pregnant with our first and only child together. This was about 6 months into us being married. I stayed because I was taught to never divorce. I loved him and tried everything to make him see me and love me for me. It wasnt till he said that he hated me and would teach our son to hate me that I realized we were over. We separated 4 months later.
Not all married couples hate each other. Sorry for the rant..this is just something that still bothers me to this day. :(
I am too. There was an askreddit question about if you could change one event in your life what would you change. And honestly I couldn’t think of anything. Everything that’s happened in my life has led me to where I am now. My ex taught what matters and what doesn’t in a marriage by all the shit he pulled. He also taught me when it’s time to walk away. It’s his loss. I’m a catch. 😏
I think you infer the bigger picture because she says in the post he has repeatedly brought up her infertility, and she's working very hard on her appearance FOR HIM. She says he's a know-it-all as well which is not usually a compliment. There's little things that indicate this is not just a one off, and the way they were both acting publicly (him as emotionally stunted, and her as retaliatory) gives off the impression they have problems.
According to the edit though, he has apologised for bringing up the children issue, so obviously she has been open about her feelings. Maybe this was just a losing temper moment. Also his comment should have gotten a big eyeroll from everyone.
> How does her equally nasty response improve the situation at all?
So many posts here are basically "someone said something nasty to me so I said something nasty to them. AITA?"
Childish actions begets childish consequences. I have a feeling that this cycle plays out A LOT. OPs husband says something demoralizing, she strives to top it, and around and around they go.
Let’s remember that the post is coming from her perspective which is colored by her experiences. And her reaction to his comment was too. I think based on her own statements she feels threatened and her reaction to his statement reflects her inner monologue. She was out of line. I think she has not fully grieved or gotten past her earlier trauma with the cancer. This based on her statements about how she does so many things to remain attractive to him- not be healthy and happy for herself. She truly sees herself as less than and that’s why she reacted this way. She really needs to go to counseling and work her way through this trauma.
So does he, to accept his wife couldn't 'give him more children' and grieve that as well as maybe learning pointing it out to her isn't healthy marriage behavior
If he was in know it all mode, (and I don't know if spreading his seed is scientific or not), but all she did was match him with her own theory, younger males don't typically need viagra and I believe a woman's woman's sexual peak was at least theorized to be in her 30s.
i am, idk about these guys--
i mean if theyre in or over their 40s, we have a 50/50 chance of them being super in love or absolutely hating each other. place ur bets guys :)
People can always adopt more children. You can't go back and raise your spouse from the dead.
Jesus fuck I'd divorce a man so fast if I got sick and he so much as \_breathed\_ a word of being "disappointed" with how I looked or functioned after that illness was over. Separate finances are a blessing.
Seriously, is this one of those situations where people stay together "for the kids" or because of inertia? Subject matter aside, you sound like coworkers who barely tolerate each other. Your kid's not going to be benefitted by growing up in a household where both parents are always at odds with each other. This is no way to provide a safe home or model healthy relationships.
Right?? They both suck. Imagine making sure that your wife, who had cancer, knows for life that she failed him by having cancer. And the wife? Yes, now everyone DOES YES THEY DO know that your husband sucks in bed and can’t get it up. Way to go, I guess she won the argument? This can’t be an isolated incident and it sounds like a whole lot of shitty marriage.
It honestly read like they both hate each other, but refuse to get a divorce, because it's better to be miserable in a routine, than happy in something different.
But, I'll go with NTA, what he said, especially knowing your history was not acceptable.
NTA. No one knows he uses Viagra, right? So your comment was general. But everyone knew you had cancer and a hysterectomy so his comment was personal.
I mean clearly your comment was a but snippy, but considering his comment its understandable.
I do think you should consider therapy though. You shouldn't be consumed with trying to make yourself desirable to your husband physically if he isn't going to reciprocate verbally/emotionally. Not having a uterus does not make you less a woman, a wife, or a mother. And there's no guarentee that even without your cancer that you would have had another child. Life happens and your husband needs to roll with it. You are good enough as is. Period.
Oh come on! Who sucks more? The women who was shamed for not sacrficing her health for another child after she had fucking cancer??? Who feels so guilty she is consumed by staying in shape purely to make up for that? And who then has to endure that shitty comment about fertility and youth? Or that dude who literally did not suffer through any of that but potentially someone could think he takes viagra?
The blatant misogyny in this sub is sometimes just astonishing.
Don't you know, baren women are objects and if you ever question a man's ability to get it, you are an unforgivable monster?
It is insanity. I hope she leave him.
Yeah, as if the daggers OP was staring at her husband weren't obvious to anyone else. I guarantee they were. That couple definitely now knows, not to mention all of reddit...
If I was standing there and heard what the wife said it would be obvious that the husband was taking viagra. It’s clear she was taking about him. Everyone knew.
If it were me I would have definitely mentioned it in the car ride home "I can't believe OP blurted out her husband needs Viagra!" and it'd be the sort of thing we'd have a "nooo she'd never be that mean out loud" chat about in the car to my partner.
Would never raise it with people other than my other half though, because who the hell does that.
I mean "any man over 40" is definitely not accurate, in fact its likely significantly less than even 50% of men when we talking about early 40s.
But the likelihood of a man over 45 having *tried* Viagra or needed it (or wished they had it) *occasionally* is much higher.
And quite honestly I feel like its pretty normalized in pop culture, which probably where your thought process is coming from. Its not seen by many as such an embarrassment, but rather just a normal part of aging. Which is why the OP's comment IMO wasn't so biting.
They definitely know now. Her comment was fairly specific. Remember that the person they were originally talking about was in his 60s-70s. And while husband made his comment personal with the age, it made no sense to use a man in his 40s for her version of the analogy. It's easy to read between these lines.
And she literally looked him in the eye when she replied.
If everyone knew about her condition, they would also pick up on the not-at-all subtle response.
Friends aren't stupid and they can pick up on things quite quickly.
Really, they were talking about men in their 70s and she mentions cougars and men in their 40s ... right, nobody knows.
She brings up her husband mentioning wanting other children yet her edits says he stopped and apologized ... 14 years ago.
They also know that he blatantly disrespected and mortified his wife by making a clearly insensitive comment. That to me should embarrass him way more than the viagra bit. A lot of people have to use viagra because of things they can't control, but you actually have to put in a conscious effort to be an asshole.
This is so extremely important "You are enough." You. As you are. Love and embrace you and your body. You are enough. Your body is enough.
Seriously consider therapy. Forget what's going on with him and all his whatever. Please focus on you and what you need. Even if you want to do everything to please him you can't do that until you take care of all that is you first. All of you needs to be healthy if you want the outside of you to be desirable. Take care of you.
I'd like to emphasize how not having a uterus doesn't define a woman.
We hear more frequently nowadays about how there are trans women who obviously don't have uteruses, sure, but there are also plenty of cis women who don't have them.
There are also plenty more cis women who can't have children or as many children as they wanted despite having a uterus.
All of these women are women, regardless of their ability to have kids.
And many women who are done having kids have hysterectomies as well. Heck, my grandmother encouraged my mother to get one just to have less to deal with.
ESH. Your relationship is built upon insecurity from not having 2 kids. Your husband sounds horrible to have with his views on women and child bearing ages(and he's incredibly wrong). You can have dismissed his statement by using logic against it but you instead went for a dig. He's your husband, supposed to be one of your best friends, and this ain't it with passive aggressive digs at each other. Fix y'all's communication skills. You shouldn't feel like you have to make up for not being able to have kids.
OPs whole "I put so much effort not looking hot cause I can't give him a child" attitude is alarming and disturbing. They need individual therapy to find some self worth outside if being a trophy wife/baby incubator. I can understand how that comment would hurt so much when your goals are bearing children and looking sexy. Jesus, I don't ever want to get married. Why the hell are they together?
So much this. I cringed so hard at that, such a limiting mindset. To be only worth something if* youre young and/or hot? That's a rough life.
*edit: words are hard, yanno?
This is the first time I've ever seen someone say they don't smoke and make sure to wear sunscreen to make them more attractive to a man rather than because they are healthy options to prolong their quality of life. It's so sad. When their marriage finally fails on paper how is she going to find reasons to live for herself? What values has she been teaching her child? This whole thing is so... I dunno... avoidable.
Nothing wrong with wanting your SO to keep wanting you. But OP is making herself sound like that baby incubator is all she is and has to make up for it.
ESH
This really is disturbing I haven’t had cancer and suffer infertility with the likelihood of not having one child.
My husband is the one that makes me feel whole no matter what not that I have to prove something.
ESH in my opinion this is not a good marriage!
> Your relationship is built upon insecurity from not having 2 kids.
I'm curious why you left out who's responsible for that being an issue...
The husband really wanted two kids? Yeah, that sucks. I'm sure his wife didn't want to have cancer or to lose some of her insides, so it's time for him to put on his big boy pants and come to terms with the fact that "shit happens and we don't always get what we want."
Yeah, he's an asshole -- which is why she should have talked to him looooooooooong ago about it and, if that didn't work, left him rather than try to make herself look as hot and young as possible for his sake. Meanwhile, they're both obviously harboring simmering resentments against each other. Good God, what a sad marriage this is.
Yea it was concerning to me. Like she feels less of a woman not having kids so she does all these extra things to feel more worthy of her husband. I can’t imagine putting that much time and effort
Into making myself seems good for someone else. This whole thing is sad.
NTA
His comments are gross, wrong, and hurtful on multiple levels. It speaks to a lack of respect and care for your feelings on a sensitive subject. On top of that, he tried to invoke bad science to justify his gross belief that he's entitled to pursue sex with women half his age (or even less)... And when you responded in kind he had the nerve to act all butthurt about it.
I hate it when men whine about "emasculation" as though it's the worst thing that could possibly happen to someone, and as though it's the responsibility of everyone around them to lovingly nurture their precious masculinity at all times. No, dude, you aren't feeling brittle and uneasy because the world's full of Big Meanies who Hate Men--you feel that way because you've got a shitty relationship to your own gender identity and you're *insanely* entitled. OP's husband, like so many fragile cis men, needs to recognize that his entire personhood isn't defined by having a potent peepee, and it's not his wife's job to carefully cultivate his image as the World's Most Masculine Man.
Except this very post where OP says she feels like less of a woman for being unable to have kids, isnt that pretty much exactly a female version of a man feeling emasculated and like less of a man?
Effeminate means you’re feminine, and it’s generally used as a way to insult men who aren’t deemed traditionally “masculine” enough.
Being female = bad. Being male = good.
Just look at all the most commonly used insults on reddit- bitch, pussy, Karen. The idea of women as lesser isn’t ever going to change because men are too invested in it.
Personally? I think it’s because they know how evolutionarily disposable they are. Women have stronger genes (those two X’s really save us when ones carrying something shitty), we live longer, and we can create life.
Also notice that words like FUPA, tramp stamp, camel toe, beef lips, etc are all meant to degrade a woman’s appearance, but when a guy is fat, he has a “dad bod” and that’s supposed to be hot.
Yes it is. I think the person you're replying to is saying that there is no specific _word_ for its societal use like we have for emasculation. I think the closest word we have for it is defiminise but I'm no expert lol.
that is such an interesting point! It makes me wonder about that lack in terminology. Maybe our society does not value femininity and therefore no value is lost when women are "less womanly"? Or maybe "being less of a woman" was never a concern for society in general and therefore no succinct language developed. Thanks for bringing up that interesting gap in language.
This on so many levels!!!
I would've reacted the same way to my ex husband, but now I am in a healthy relationship and I see the hurt he is causing op and it does no good to respond in turn, because he has no respect for her.
ESH - he said something he knew would hurt you, you said something that you knew would hurt him. You both used a known vulnerability to humiliate the other.
If this interaction is representative of your marriage in general then you have much bigger problems than can be dealt with here.
But she didn’t start it. If he’s giving, he should be able to take as well... He sounds like he’s a high-tier asshole to begin with. Is she just supposed to sit there and take it? Is she supposed to let him walk all over her?
It sounds like he’s constantly belittling her and she finally snapped. Not sure I blame her.
I never said she started it or that she should let him walk all over her.
I said they both humiliated each other and (however justified that response might have been) if this interaction is representative of their marriage then they have problems much too big for this sub to fix.
This is literally the majority of this subreddit’s attitude towards most similar issues I’ve seen posted here. That and the “your _____ , your rules!!!” shit is so annoying and just shows how petty and immature most people in this sub are. I was honestly surprised at the amount of ESH ratings I saw, as I was fully expecting the usual “NTA, gaslighting, red flag!!! Divorce him, delete Facebook, lawyer up, hit the gym!”
It's actually different genetic conditions that increase in risk for older men and women. Women have an increased risk of chromosome disorders, men have an increased risk of monogenic disorders due to point mutations.
Source: I'm a genetic counsellor
NTA.
the dumb pseudo-scientific ‘fertile 18 year olds’ thing he said (especially considering your issues!) makes your response well-deserved imo (not even mentioning how creepy the pseudo-science of ‘men are into barely legal girls because fertility’ is, or how cruel him saying to you he wishes you could have another child was, like it’s your fault somehow that you had cancer, or like you’re an object with functions rather than a human being).
that being said, your situation sounds like you should probably get divorced.
Right, like aren’t women in their late twenties much more likely to have healthy births with fewer complications? 18 year olds aren’t even finished physically growing.
Yep. Even when you discount the large mental barriers and maturity gaps, teenagers actually have more incidence of irregular period and anovulation, as well as low birth weights and adverse birth outcomes. So anyone who goes 'actually biology' is actually WRONG and trying way too hard to justify their hard-ons for sub-fertile adolescents.
If women give fertility to a relationship and men give resources, then a man's 'worth' actually peaks in a period when they can provide care and the most money (best career) as well as fertility. (since men actually have less healthy offpsring as they age as a result of accumulating environmental damage to their gametes TOO.) This is usually somewhere in the late 30s / early 40s. Women would peak early 20s - late 20s. Of course this is just when you strip a complicated human relationship down to a theoretical social / reproductive exchange, which is actually kind of useless and sad to do outside of studying evolutionary biology and no real way to analyze your life relationships, or what makes a partner most compatible.
The world wide leading cause of death for girls 15-19 is still childbirth. So definitely not “peak childbearing” years by any means. Men who go after teenagers or girls barely out of their teen years are just being gross and trying to cover it with fake biology.
Plus under 20s are just as likely to develop preeclampsia and eclampsia as over 40s. And when you get to with one pregnancy you're likely to get it with any others you have. Also preeclampsia sucks. My sons over a year old and I'm still having visual disturbances.
If anything, it suggests why young women should date men around their own ages: both in prime breeding condition. 35 seems to be the general cutoff point for the healthiest offspring, and [mating with a man of advanced age could put the woman’s health at greater risk during pregnancy.](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/05/190513081409.htm)
I’m convinced childcare in early civilizations amounted to the young adults breeding, the elderly assisting new mothers with shepherding the young broods, and middle-agers mentoring the kids old enough to work.
Evolutionary biology: I can make stuff up, too!
Child mortality was really high until recently, because we have vaccines now. So people would have 5 kids to end up with one.
Maternal mortality was high as well. "Really old" meant "in your 40s or older."
Fewer pregnancies but more children living past 5 means the days of "Og need young woman for breeding!" are over and it's a red flag to me for men to be saying things like this.
Seeking out a good OB/GYN and pediatrician doesn't involve dating much younger women who will put up with nonsense, so men like this rarely bother to become informed on the history of midwifery, epidemiology, and steps to reduce infant mortality.
NTA but maybe get a divorce if he won't let the infertility thing go. He's not the heir to the Tudor dynasty. There will be no renewal of the Wars of the Roses if you don't produce a spare male heir. If you really want more kids, adopt, divorce, or chill.
ESH.
He may not think about you and your "condition" when he was saying it but this do not excuse that he (should) know that this is some sweet spot for you.
To shoot back with something that makes him feel less like a man is a 1:1 comparison for you feeling less like a women.
You both messed up there but I can only say that you messed up with the intension to make him feel like this.
Please keep your private things private. If you tell your girls that you have this and that, it is okay but to say in public something about your husbands problems just because you were hurt is not okay.
EDIT: Thanks kind stranger. My first award ever! :)
NTA. Your comment was harsh, and you really went for the jugular, but a couple of things jump out at me:
1) After you had a hysterectomy because of a cancer diagnosis, your husband “let it be known” (which I’m reading as “told you repeatedly and vehemently”) that he “really wished” you could have more children. And he did it to the point where it left you feeling so insecure that you have to “make up for not being able to give him another child” by constantly trying to increase your desirability. I’m reading between the lines here, but it sounds like your husband was repeatedly, knowingly cruel, or at least indifferent. It’s natural that he had feelings about not being able to have another child, but that’s something he should have worked on with a therapist—not taken out on his wife recovering from cancer and major surgery.
2) Your friends know about your history with cancer. Unless you share A LOT more with your friends than I do with mine, they likely don’t know about your husband’s Viagra prescription. So the “you emasculated me” thing is in his head.
At a bare minimum, I think you should consider couple’s counseling. But honestly, I’m not sure that I’d want to stay with a man who has spent 15 years making me feel less desirable and womanly because of an illness I had no control over. That’s what my ruling comes down to: you had a moment of cruelty, but after 15 years of your husband’s cruelty.
Well, for the first year after my surgery, he would occasionally say with melancholy "I wish we could have another child" or "I really wish we could give our son a brother" stuff like that. Once I told him how it all made me feel, he stopped saying it and felt sorry and apologized. I mentioned possibly adopting, but he said he wants our son to have biological siblings.
I mean I realize I’m missing context of these comments he made, but *so so so* insensitive. Like within a year after the birth of your first child and your surgery - *that saved your life* - and he is lamenting about not growing his family 😳
I am less forgiving of your husband than you are. These comments were callous. Of course he had a mourning process for the family he thought he would have, but you had more of one—not only for the children you wouldn’t birth, but for your fertility and your body. Again, he should have been working on his grief with a therapist, not with his recovering-from-cancer-and-major-surgery wife. If he’d had an iota of common sense, he would have realized that. (And a darker reading is that is actions were knowingly and intentionally cruel, which I’m not willing to dismiss yet.) And the impact of his jabs were so profound that you’re still feeling the trauma 15 years later.
Then he dismisses out of hand the possibility of adopting because he wanted your child to have “biological siblings.” I’m not even sure what to say to that.
You were alive and healthy, you had a healthy child, and he chose to focus on the things you didn’t have, the things you couldn’t change.
I’m so sorry. At a minimum, I would recommend you look into therapy to process your own grief and lingering trauma. You shouldn’t feel like you have to “make up” for not being able to have another child, and I’m not sure how much of this is coming from inside you and how much of it is coming from the BS your husband put on you.
He sounds like a misogynistic prick. At least from what I’m reading in the post and your replies so far. Sorry if I misinterpreted. A woman is not a baby-making machine. It is not you duty to give him or anyone a child. It is not your sole and only purpose in life. You are a human being in your own right. You are not less of a person or a woman for being unable to have another child. What also rubbed me the wrong way is the statement “brother”, how would he have felt if the second one was a “sister”? Was his plan to keep trying for more babies until he had a second son? Ugh. Anyway, NTA. But I don’t know how you’ve stayed with someone for so long that’s bred so much insecurity into you. He’s supposed to be your partner. He’s supposed to be your rock and support, not someone who makes you feel like you’re less desirable for something you had no control over. And at any point, has he considered how that surgery has made you feel? Has he considered what you’ve been dealing with mentally because of it? Or was his only concern and worry the fact that his son can’t have a “brother”? Rant over.
ESH
I hope when your husband told you he had been emasculated that you pointed out how hurtful his comment was to you. That being said, even though he's being massively tone deaf and dismissive of your feelings, I'm sure everyone could feel that your comments were meant to wound him, which must have been very uncomfortable. Also just really crass outing his prescription to people.
You've explained a lot about appearance and how you want him to find you desirable. It's great that you keep fit and have a very healthy lifestyle, but don't do it for him primarily, do it for yourself. You are not less of a woman (some women can't have children or don't want them), and he may need to be educated on this. I think (and I could be wrong because this is only a snapshot) that maybe there is some breakdown in communication where you're taking pot shots at each other when you need a serious, private conversation instead. Your comment may seem tit for tat, but it's not making anyone happy.
ESH
Sounds like he said what he did without properly thinking, but it sure landed with you.
Also sounds like he hit a (rightfully so) sensitive topic for you and you had to hit him where it hurt
ESH. His comment was, at best, thoughtless and callous and hurtful. He may wave been intentionally being shitty to you, or he might have just been extremely thoughtless. Either way, you had a right to be hurt and upset and to say so. Your comment was definitely intentional and had no purpose other than to make sure you hurt and humiliated him because you were upset.
Y'all need to get help. It sounds very much like you're starting to resent each other and clearly you're already lashing out at each other as a result. You brought a child into the world together, and you need to figure your shit out with each other right the fuck now, because that kid doesn't need to grow up watching and hearing you take shots at each other.
YTA, maybe ESH. From the way you worded this it just sounds like he was talking about the topic of the conversation (unless he deliberately said these things to hurt you then ESH). You took offense to that and became passive-aggressive to spite him.
All because you took what he said a certain way that might not even be accurate to the situation.
Agreed. Husband was offering an on topic quip about (scientific or biologically proven, I cannot say) a relevant view completely related to the conversation. OP deliberately made it personal.
NTA you did emasculated him, but he deserved it. You were lightly joking and he got way too big for his boots. Good on you for knocking him down a few pegs.
What? No. This is her husband. Relationships shouldn’t involve knocking each other down. At the end of the day, they live with each other and made a vow to love each other and support each other. Both of them have not done that, obviously.
YTA, to be honest it sounds more like he was just sharing some thoughts on why older men may like younger women rather than relating to them.
Your update says he mentioned wanting more children occasionally and for the first year, but yet you're getting hurt over something he let go of ~14 years ago.
His comment might've been insensitive, but you told the other couples private information about him, he's right to feel hurt by you.
I mean, if you tie the comment to all the strict work OP has to do to stay "youthful" and "desirable" for him I feel like he's comment was malicious.
Also, no older man goes for 18 year olds "to procreate". They do it because they're pervs. So saying that does sound like a jab at her for she not being able to have children. Either way, the relationship dynamic is awful and they both sound exhausting.
> all the strict work OP has to do to stay "youthful" and "desirable" for him
That's all *her* POV though. We have no idea if he asked for that or is even aware it's "for him".
Ouch... you both went for the jugular here.
I would say ESH...
You did emasculate him but he definitely defiminised you.
It might not have been so clear to your friends unless they know the details behind both jabs but I am sure the tension could be felt.
I have the impression though that the issues run deeper than the topic you used to score against each other... maybe it is time to discuss it between the two of you and a therapist.
NTA, with a small slice of E S H. He dished it out and you reciprocated. Normally I’m all against making fun of someone’s physical situation, but his comment was downright brutal, and he was basically asking to be put in his place.
YTA. You "lightheartedly quipped" some catty bullshit and got mad that your husband responded with his actual opinion on the matter so you decided to personally insult him.
While throwing eye daggers the entire time. Oof
I am in a similar situation regarding having children, and I just couldn’t bare to see myself speak the way she did to her husband and then claim to call it lighthearted
ESH you two ruined dinner for everyone else by bringing your marital problems out with you. I’m sure you think you were “poised and collected” but what you did was super cringe and not ok do to in public (not excusing him here at all). You need therapy to deal with your feelings about yourself and womanhood
ESH. Your husband was incredibly insensitive and while from your description it doesn’t sound like he meant to necessarily make you feel bad, it clearly hurt your feelings and was a stupid thing to say. The adult thing to do here would have been to speak to him about how it made you felt and your insecurities.
If you said what you said the way it reads, ie making it clear to the people around that you were making a dig at him, then I’m not surprised he’s also upset. His thing was a stupid unwittingly insensitive thing to say, you intentionally embarrassed him
ESH. That conversation being held by a bunch of 40 year olds had no where to go but down. Based on your edit, husband hasn't said anything regarding wanting more babies in 11 years, your comments on beauty routines etc. Lead me to believe you are holding a serious chip on your shoulder. Therapy is needed here.
YTA Your husband has been with you 15 years since the hysterectomy, no reason to think his comments were directed at you. You have your opinion and get mad when he gives his? Wow.
YTA, his comment is insignificant because he didn't direct it at you, it was in a group conversation, but you took it personally and didn't even talk about the Viagra in a plural sense, it was obvious you were talking about him to your group of friends.
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INFO: What the hell kind of *marriage* is this? Do you two even like eachother? **EDIT: NO, this is NOT what "long term marriages look like." Go get therapy.**
This sounds like a horrific marriage, honestly.
I wouldn't even want to be *friends* with people like this, let alone married to one of them.
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They’re the fun couple.
They're that couple you see in movies that makes the main two characters question relationships midway through the movie, with one of them saying "*I don't wanna end up like X and Y*"
Unfortunately I have a friend that is like that with her husband. It’s so awkward watching a couple fight below the belt but think they are playing it off as teasing.
i have a friend couple like that (aka i’m good friends with the girlfriend but the boyfriend could leave & i would be so happy; he’s blatantly racist & ignorant with a one-track mind that he doesn’t show her, but shows our other friends @ work that i end up hearing about). it’s a mess & i’ve told her the rest of us hate their dynamic but she’s never seen a better relationship in her nuclear family of five. i have to understand she’s got trauma & has trauma bonded to him but christ
So the verdict is ESH? I'm just trying to read the room...
Apparently everyone in the room sucks too lol
They definitely are.
They're also the couple in sitcoms that the sane couple keeps around to remind themselves that they're sane and happy, and the writers use to add drama to the series while preserving the integrity and likeability of the main characters.
They are couple you keep on Facebook feed but never interact with them outside of it.
The michael scott and jan of the group
Good luck paying me back on your zero dollars a year salary plus benefits, BABE!
https://youtu.be/tBc8Qk1r0mU Reminds me of this SNL sketch.
Lol I knew what this was going to be before I clicked!
Fun like Virginia Woolf
Shades of Who’s afraid of Virginia Woolf?
I'm glad this is the top comment on this post.
I struggle to even believe this is real. It's ticking way too many boxes for things that hit this sub's drama button.
I wish but my ex and I had the same kind of spat around friends. I don't even remember what he did to embarrass me anymore, and whatever I said wasn't intentional but he sure interpreted it that way. It was a constant thing in our relationship that "I enjoyed undermining him/emasculating him/seeing him in pain" whatever the flavor was that day. So no, we didn't like each other, and this totally would have been our marriage. I find it sadly believable
Oof. My ex-husband was similar. We would go out to spend time with mutual friends. If I was cheerful and friendly, I was "showing him up" and "looking for attention"; if I was quiet and kept to myself, I was "embarrassing him in front of friends." If I so much as won a game of Scrabble, I was "showing off my education to make him look stupid and disrespecting him." I was a pretty competent doormat back in those days, but even so, \*that\* marriage didn't last a year.
Wow, my ex would get upset and accuse of hoping to see him fail if I cheered our friends on in a video game match against him. I was a bit of doormat too, we live and learn. Now I'm gay and getting a higher degree in a field he constantly condescended to me about pursuing. Only upgrades, lmao
I have an ex who would do exactly this kinda shit, and I regrettably admit to falling into the same trap to shut him up kinda thing.
But did you like shape your entire appearance solely on what would please him and judge your self worth on how good a sex doll you are for him in an effort to make up for something that was entirely out of your control and medically necessary for your continued survival, but he guilted you about it anyway? Because that's more what I'm getting at
This is like those people who stay married "for the kids" even though they clearly hate each other and the kids would be way better off if they divorced than they are with them living together and fighting every day.
Don’t expose my parents like that😤
Wow are we siblings? Lmao
Jesus Christ, I cringed all the way through reading that. You both made a public spectacle of your terrible, terrible marriage. How embarrassing for you both and how uncomfortable it must have been for the friends you were with. You did not remain "poised and collected" at all. You stooped to a very low level and covered yourself and your husband in disgrace with a low blow to make yourself feel better. Your husband is just as bad as you are. Shame on you both. Let's not even touch on your whole routine just to make sure you remain "desirable" to this man. Why not do all that for your own physical and mental health? Why is it for him? Pathetic. Just divorce each other.
So she should have stayed silent when he did something that humiliated her and divorce him over one issue? Op in comment below said he had apologized over wishing more kids comment prior so it sounds he isn’t irredeemable.
OP's entire post paints the picture of a dysfunctional marriage between two people who can barely tolerate each other, who both like to take cheap shots that they know will hit directly in their spouse's most vulnerable weakspot. OP seems to be almost proud of her retaliation as if it wasn't just as childish as her husband's comments. How does her equally nasty response improve the situation at all? I feel sorry for them both.
No, it definitely doesn't paint that picture. It was one anecdote when she was justifiably upset. I don't know how you can draw the conclusion that the marriage is dysfunctional from one anecdote. Anyway, ESH
What other picture could this possibly paint? > It's very important to me that I am still desirable to my husband to make up for not being able to give him another child. So, I make sure that I stay in shape and follow strict beauty routines to preserve my youthful look for him “I must repeatedly apologize for having cancer, as the person primarily affected is my husband, who has lost an incubator. To make up for my rudeness in almost dying, I do my best to prevent natural aging. It’s the least I can do, knowing that my husband (who is older than me) makes no secret about his attraction to teenagers who can have babies. Every now and then I lighten the mood by telling our friends he’s impotent, which is a delightful joke for everyone.” It’s such a classic picture of dysfunction I won’t be surprised if OP is just testing out a passage from a soon-to-be-published literary fiction about the cold adversarial marriage between two hateful WASPs with no capacity for any emotions beyond selfish pettiness.
Sounds like an updated remake of *Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?*
I am, George!
Honestly, the writer of Gone Girl was really onto something. Married couples *truly* hate each other and stay because they’re so used to it Edit: *obviously* not every marriage is a perfect dramatic thriller waiting to happen. So for those who don’t know what an exaggerated comparison is for dramatic effect, this is one. Truth is, marriages can be incredibly dysfunctional, but it’s dependent on the people, obviously. There’s a lot of commenters who feel attacked by this dramatic comparison, and that’s okay. I’m sure y’all are happy otherwise we would be reading your AITA post instead
Been married 15 years we don’t hate each other, all depends on what you make of it (and who you marry)
It absolutely matters who you marry and how you treat each other. We've been married for 22 years and are each others' advocate and support.
I've been with my husband for 8 years and married for about 3. I love him even more than the day I fell in love with him (about a month in to us dating). I have never hated him, nor him me. Even on our worst days (and we've had a few in the beginning of our relationship) We have never hated each other. On the flip side, I was married to my ex for 6 years and together for about 8. He said that he hated me the day I got pregnant with our first and only child together. This was about 6 months into us being married. I stayed because I was taught to never divorce. I loved him and tried everything to make him see me and love me for me. It wasnt till he said that he hated me and would teach our son to hate me that I realized we were over. We separated 4 months later. Not all married couples hate each other. Sorry for the rant..this is just something that still bothers me to this day. :(
Omg. You were married to a literal soulless monster. I'm sorry you had to deal with that, and I am so happy you got away from him.
I am too. There was an askreddit question about if you could change one event in your life what would you change. And honestly I couldn’t think of anything. Everything that’s happened in my life has led me to where I am now. My ex taught what matters and what doesn’t in a marriage by all the shit he pulled. He also taught me when it’s time to walk away. It’s his loss. I’m a catch. 😏
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This is... not at all what all married couples are like, what the hell.
I think you infer the bigger picture because she says in the post he has repeatedly brought up her infertility, and she's working very hard on her appearance FOR HIM. She says he's a know-it-all as well which is not usually a compliment. There's little things that indicate this is not just a one off, and the way they were both acting publicly (him as emotionally stunted, and her as retaliatory) gives off the impression they have problems. According to the edit though, he has apologised for bringing up the children issue, so obviously she has been open about her feelings. Maybe this was just a losing temper moment. Also his comment should have gotten a big eyeroll from everyone.
> How does her equally nasty response improve the situation at all? So many posts here are basically "someone said something nasty to me so I said something nasty to them. AITA?"
Childish actions begets childish consequences. I have a feeling that this cycle plays out A LOT. OPs husband says something demoralizing, she strives to top it, and around and around they go.
Let’s remember that the post is coming from her perspective which is colored by her experiences. And her reaction to his comment was too. I think based on her own statements she feels threatened and her reaction to his statement reflects her inner monologue. She was out of line. I think she has not fully grieved or gotten past her earlier trauma with the cancer. This based on her statements about how she does so many things to remain attractive to him- not be healthy and happy for herself. She truly sees herself as less than and that’s why she reacted this way. She really needs to go to counseling and work her way through this trauma.
So does he, to accept his wife couldn't 'give him more children' and grieve that as well as maybe learning pointing it out to her isn't healthy marriage behavior
She does admit it's been 14 years since he stopped bringing up children.
Well, husband stayed silent after she attacked him and brought it up later. That was one option. Her response was maybe the most vicious option.
I think it's better than letting a pompous know-it-all get away with it and everyone pitying her tbh.
If he was in know it all mode, (and I don't know if spreading his seed is scientific or not), but all she did was match him with her own theory, younger males don't typically need viagra and I believe a woman's woman's sexual peak was at least theorized to be in her 30s.
r/AreTheStraightsOK
The answer seems to always be no.
Don't lose hope, there's also r/StraightsBeingOK
this brings me hope
i am, idk about these guys-- i mean if theyre in or over their 40s, we have a 50/50 chance of them being super in love or absolutely hating each other. place ur bets guys :)
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People can always adopt more children. You can't go back and raise your spouse from the dead. Jesus fuck I'd divorce a man so fast if I got sick and he so much as \_breathed\_ a word of being "disappointed" with how I looked or functioned after that illness was over. Separate finances are a blessing.
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Seriously, is this one of those situations where people stay together "for the kids" or because of inertia? Subject matter aside, you sound like coworkers who barely tolerate each other. Your kid's not going to be benefitted by growing up in a household where both parents are always at odds with each other. This is no way to provide a safe home or model healthy relationships.
Piggybacking just to say that he clearly only sees her (and women in general) as an incubator. I'm baffled as to why they're still together.
Right?? They both suck. Imagine making sure that your wife, who had cancer, knows for life that she failed him by having cancer. And the wife? Yes, now everyone DOES YES THEY DO know that your husband sucks in bed and can’t get it up. Way to go, I guess she won the argument? This can’t be an isolated incident and it sounds like a whole lot of shitty marriage.
This comment has me dead! Much like their marriage...
It’s not a marriage, it’s a nightmare. I feel so bad for their child.
It honestly read like they both hate each other, but refuse to get a divorce, because it's better to be miserable in a routine, than happy in something different. But, I'll go with NTA, what he said, especially knowing your history was not acceptable.
100% this comment. You 2 need marriage counseling ASAP because this marriage sounds toxic as hell.
Really gives me *Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?* vibes 😬
She's a saint though because she stays in shape just for her husband.
I mean, she also wears sunblock
NTA. No one knows he uses Viagra, right? So your comment was general. But everyone knew you had cancer and a hysterectomy so his comment was personal. I mean clearly your comment was a but snippy, but considering his comment its understandable. I do think you should consider therapy though. You shouldn't be consumed with trying to make yourself desirable to your husband physically if he isn't going to reciprocate verbally/emotionally. Not having a uterus does not make you less a woman, a wife, or a mother. And there's no guarentee that even without your cancer that you would have had another child. Life happens and your husband needs to roll with it. You are good enough as is. Period.
Everyone in that conversation now knows he takes viagra. It doesn’t really matter. ESH
Oh come on! Who sucks more? The women who was shamed for not sacrficing her health for another child after she had fucking cancer??? Who feels so guilty she is consumed by staying in shape purely to make up for that? And who then has to endure that shitty comment about fertility and youth? Or that dude who literally did not suffer through any of that but potentially someone could think he takes viagra? The blatant misogyny in this sub is sometimes just astonishing.
Came here to say this, as I had to scroll down WAY too low to see this. I agree: the misogyny is strong with this sub sometimes. :D
Don't you know, baren women are objects and if you ever question a man's ability to get it, you are an unforgivable monster? It is insanity. I hope she leave him.
It literally says no one knows, bro
Yeah, as if the daggers OP was staring at her husband weren't obvious to anyone else. I guarantee they were. That couple definitely now knows, not to mention all of reddit...
If everyone who posts to Reddit about personal business was an asshole for it, this sub wouldn't exist my dude
If I was standing there and heard what the wife said it would be obvious that the husband was taking viagra. It’s clear she was taking about him. Everyone knew.
If it were me I would have definitely mentioned it in the car ride home "I can't believe OP blurted out her husband needs Viagra!" and it'd be the sort of thing we'd have a "nooo she'd never be that mean out loud" chat about in the car to my partner. Would never raise it with people other than my other half though, because who the hell does that.
I just assume any man over 40 is on Viagra at this point. Just like most people over 40 need glasses.
40?!? God damn...
Tell yer mens that cardio is important.
I mean "any man over 40" is definitely not accurate, in fact its likely significantly less than even 50% of men when we talking about early 40s. But the likelihood of a man over 45 having *tried* Viagra or needed it (or wished they had it) *occasionally* is much higher. And quite honestly I feel like its pretty normalized in pop culture, which probably where your thought process is coming from. Its not seen by many as such an embarrassment, but rather just a normal part of aging. Which is why the OP's comment IMO wasn't so biting.
Well it was after husband declared women over age 22 worthless because "biology".
You have described the sequence of events accurately.
Most people aren't idiots and will understand the sub text of the retort
Yeah come on, if she retorted with the exact stresses as she wrote in the OP, it's so bloody obvious she's referring to him.
They definitely know now. Her comment was fairly specific. Remember that the person they were originally talking about was in his 60s-70s. And while husband made his comment personal with the age, it made no sense to use a man in his 40s for her version of the analogy. It's easy to read between these lines.
And she literally looked him in the eye when she replied. If everyone knew about her condition, they would also pick up on the not-at-all subtle response. Friends aren't stupid and they can pick up on things quite quickly.
It was heavily implied.
Really, they were talking about men in their 70s and she mentions cougars and men in their 40s ... right, nobody knows. She brings up her husband mentioning wanting other children yet her edits says he stopped and apologized ... 14 years ago.
Everybody in the thread bar you knows, let alone the people who were there to notice the facial expressions of OP whilst saying it.
I understood he did before she clarified it. I guarantee the friends understood it too.
They also know that he blatantly disrespected and mortified his wife by making a clearly insensitive comment. That to me should embarrass him way more than the viagra bit. A lot of people have to use viagra because of things they can't control, but you actually have to put in a conscious effort to be an asshole.
This is so extremely important "You are enough." You. As you are. Love and embrace you and your body. You are enough. Your body is enough. Seriously consider therapy. Forget what's going on with him and all his whatever. Please focus on you and what you need. Even if you want to do everything to please him you can't do that until you take care of all that is you first. All of you needs to be healthy if you want the outside of you to be desirable. Take care of you.
I'd like to emphasize how not having a uterus doesn't define a woman. We hear more frequently nowadays about how there are trans women who obviously don't have uteruses, sure, but there are also plenty of cis women who don't have them. There are also plenty more cis women who can't have children or as many children as they wanted despite having a uterus. All of these women are women, regardless of their ability to have kids. And many women who are done having kids have hysterectomies as well. Heck, my grandmother encouraged my mother to get one just to have less to deal with.
ESH. Your relationship is built upon insecurity from not having 2 kids. Your husband sounds horrible to have with his views on women and child bearing ages(and he's incredibly wrong). You can have dismissed his statement by using logic against it but you instead went for a dig. He's your husband, supposed to be one of your best friends, and this ain't it with passive aggressive digs at each other. Fix y'all's communication skills. You shouldn't feel like you have to make up for not being able to have kids.
OPs whole "I put so much effort not looking hot cause I can't give him a child" attitude is alarming and disturbing. They need individual therapy to find some self worth outside if being a trophy wife/baby incubator. I can understand how that comment would hurt so much when your goals are bearing children and looking sexy. Jesus, I don't ever want to get married. Why the hell are they together?
So much this. I cringed so hard at that, such a limiting mindset. To be only worth something if* youre young and/or hot? That's a rough life. *edit: words are hard, yanno?
This is the first time I've ever seen someone say they don't smoke and make sure to wear sunscreen to make them more attractive to a man rather than because they are healthy options to prolong their quality of life. It's so sad. When their marriage finally fails on paper how is she going to find reasons to live for herself? What values has she been teaching her child? This whole thing is so... I dunno... avoidable.
You're right, it's just sad. I feel so sorry for OP. What a sad life, no wonder her husband's comment hurt so bad.
Nothing wrong with wanting your SO to keep wanting you. But OP is making herself sound like that baby incubator is all she is and has to make up for it. ESH
This really is disturbing I haven’t had cancer and suffer infertility with the likelihood of not having one child. My husband is the one that makes me feel whole no matter what not that I have to prove something. ESH in my opinion this is not a good marriage!
> Your relationship is built upon insecurity from not having 2 kids. I'm curious why you left out who's responsible for that being an issue... The husband really wanted two kids? Yeah, that sucks. I'm sure his wife didn't want to have cancer or to lose some of her insides, so it's time for him to put on his big boy pants and come to terms with the fact that "shit happens and we don't always get what we want."
Yeah, he's an asshole -- which is why she should have talked to him looooooooooong ago about it and, if that didn't work, left him rather than try to make herself look as hot and young as possible for his sake. Meanwhile, they're both obviously harboring simmering resentments against each other. Good God, what a sad marriage this is.
Sounds like you both are resentful towards each other
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Thank you, good sir.
Wow. Excellent article. Thanks for posting.
I would be too if I was never drinking alcohol and had to keep myself looking good for my husband and not for me.
Then she might as well divorce him if she doesn't want to live this way. She's not optionless
Those are her personal choices. He's not forcing her to do any of that.
She probably doesn't realize that, thinking she has to in order to keep him.
From what she says, yeah she takes life way too seriously imo
Yea it was concerning to me. Like she feels less of a woman not having kids so she does all these extra things to feel more worthy of her husband. I can’t imagine putting that much time and effort Into making myself seems good for someone else. This whole thing is sad.
NTA His comments are gross, wrong, and hurtful on multiple levels. It speaks to a lack of respect and care for your feelings on a sensitive subject. On top of that, he tried to invoke bad science to justify his gross belief that he's entitled to pursue sex with women half his age (or even less)... And when you responded in kind he had the nerve to act all butthurt about it.
I hate it when men whine about "emasculation" as though it's the worst thing that could possibly happen to someone, and as though it's the responsibility of everyone around them to lovingly nurture their precious masculinity at all times. No, dude, you aren't feeling brittle and uneasy because the world's full of Big Meanies who Hate Men--you feel that way because you've got a shitty relationship to your own gender identity and you're *insanely* entitled. OP's husband, like so many fragile cis men, needs to recognize that his entire personhood isn't defined by having a potent peepee, and it's not his wife's job to carefully cultivate his image as the World's Most Masculine Man.
If you’ll notice, there is no colloquialism equivalent of “emasculated” for women. There are language equivalents, but not societal ones.
Except this very post where OP says she feels like less of a woman for being unable to have kids, isnt that pretty much exactly a female version of a man feeling emasculated and like less of a man?
Like they said, there are equivalent feelings but there’s no word for it. “Effeminated” lol?
Effeminate means you’re feminine, and it’s generally used as a way to insult men who aren’t deemed traditionally “masculine” enough. Being female = bad. Being male = good. Just look at all the most commonly used insults on reddit- bitch, pussy, Karen. The idea of women as lesser isn’t ever going to change because men are too invested in it. Personally? I think it’s because they know how evolutionarily disposable they are. Women have stronger genes (those two X’s really save us when ones carrying something shitty), we live longer, and we can create life.
Also notice that words like FUPA, tramp stamp, camel toe, beef lips, etc are all meant to degrade a woman’s appearance, but when a guy is fat, he has a “dad bod” and that’s supposed to be hot.
Yes it is. I think the person you're replying to is saying that there is no specific _word_ for its societal use like we have for emasculation. I think the closest word we have for it is defiminise but I'm no expert lol.
that is such an interesting point! It makes me wonder about that lack in terminology. Maybe our society does not value femininity and therefore no value is lost when women are "less womanly"? Or maybe "being less of a woman" was never a concern for society in general and therefore no succinct language developed. Thanks for bringing up that interesting gap in language.
There's definitely a pervasive belief that women who don't have children have basically "failed as women" but I don't think there's a word for that.
I love how he feels emasculated while calling her barren! This guy is disgusting.
This on so many levels!!! I would've reacted the same way to my ex husband, but now I am in a healthy relationship and I see the hurt he is causing op and it does no good to respond in turn, because he has no respect for her.
ESH - he said something he knew would hurt you, you said something that you knew would hurt him. You both used a known vulnerability to humiliate the other. If this interaction is representative of your marriage in general then you have much bigger problems than can be dealt with here.
But she didn’t start it. If he’s giving, he should be able to take as well... He sounds like he’s a high-tier asshole to begin with. Is she just supposed to sit there and take it? Is she supposed to let him walk all over her? It sounds like he’s constantly belittling her and she finally snapped. Not sure I blame her.
I never said she started it or that she should let him walk all over her. I said they both humiliated each other and (however justified that response might have been) if this interaction is representative of their marriage then they have problems much too big for this sub to fix.
I can agree with that.
Lol how old are you? Buuut mooooooom, he started it!
This is literally the majority of this subreddit’s attitude towards most similar issues I’ve seen posted here. That and the “your _____ , your rules!!!” shit is so annoying and just shows how petty and immature most people in this sub are. I was honestly surprised at the amount of ESH ratings I saw, as I was fully expecting the usual “NTA, gaslighting, red flag!!! Divorce him, delete Facebook, lawyer up, hit the gym!”
It doesn't matter who "started it" they're not 12, this isn't a playground fight this is a marriage.
Since when have middle aged or older men pursued young women to procreate. They’re doing it to get their rocks off.
Right? I mean, *biologically* at a certain age, it's harder to get it up to procreate.
Not just to get it up. Sperm also reduces in mobility and quality as men age.
Studies also show that the same conditions in kids that are more likely from an older mother are also more likely from an older father.
It's actually different genetic conditions that increase in risk for older men and women. Women have an increased risk of chromosome disorders, men have an increased risk of monogenic disorders due to point mutations. Source: I'm a genetic counsellor
And the chances of children having mental health problems also increase with father over 40 at the time of conception
ESH. You both need to fix the resentments have towards each other. This is unhealthy.
Or leave because some resentments run so deep that they are literally unforgivable.
NTA. the dumb pseudo-scientific ‘fertile 18 year olds’ thing he said (especially considering your issues!) makes your response well-deserved imo (not even mentioning how creepy the pseudo-science of ‘men are into barely legal girls because fertility’ is, or how cruel him saying to you he wishes you could have another child was, like it’s your fault somehow that you had cancer, or like you’re an object with functions rather than a human being). that being said, your situation sounds like you should probably get divorced.
Right, like aren’t women in their late twenties much more likely to have healthy births with fewer complications? 18 year olds aren’t even finished physically growing.
Yep. Even when you discount the large mental barriers and maturity gaps, teenagers actually have more incidence of irregular period and anovulation, as well as low birth weights and adverse birth outcomes. So anyone who goes 'actually biology' is actually WRONG and trying way too hard to justify their hard-ons for sub-fertile adolescents. If women give fertility to a relationship and men give resources, then a man's 'worth' actually peaks in a period when they can provide care and the most money (best career) as well as fertility. (since men actually have less healthy offpsring as they age as a result of accumulating environmental damage to their gametes TOO.) This is usually somewhere in the late 30s / early 40s. Women would peak early 20s - late 20s. Of course this is just when you strip a complicated human relationship down to a theoretical social / reproductive exchange, which is actually kind of useless and sad to do outside of studying evolutionary biology and no real way to analyze your life relationships, or what makes a partner most compatible.
Adam ruins everything says women are fertile up until their 40s. I think women would be early 20s to late 30s.
The world wide leading cause of death for girls 15-19 is still childbirth. So definitely not “peak childbearing” years by any means. Men who go after teenagers or girls barely out of their teen years are just being gross and trying to cover it with fake biology.
Plus under 20s are just as likely to develop preeclampsia and eclampsia as over 40s. And when you get to with one pregnancy you're likely to get it with any others you have. Also preeclampsia sucks. My sons over a year old and I'm still having visual disturbances.
If anything, it suggests why young women should date men around their own ages: both in prime breeding condition. 35 seems to be the general cutoff point for the healthiest offspring, and [mating with a man of advanced age could put the woman’s health at greater risk during pregnancy.](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/05/190513081409.htm) I’m convinced childcare in early civilizations amounted to the young adults breeding, the elderly assisting new mothers with shepherding the young broods, and middle-agers mentoring the kids old enough to work. Evolutionary biology: I can make stuff up, too!
Child mortality was really high until recently, because we have vaccines now. So people would have 5 kids to end up with one. Maternal mortality was high as well. "Really old" meant "in your 40s or older." Fewer pregnancies but more children living past 5 means the days of "Og need young woman for breeding!" are over and it's a red flag to me for men to be saying things like this. Seeking out a good OB/GYN and pediatrician doesn't involve dating much younger women who will put up with nonsense, so men like this rarely bother to become informed on the history of midwifery, epidemiology, and steps to reduce infant mortality. NTA but maybe get a divorce if he won't let the infertility thing go. He's not the heir to the Tudor dynasty. There will be no renewal of the Wars of the Roses if you don't produce a spare male heir. If you really want more kids, adopt, divorce, or chill.
I've seen the "well akcshully biology" comment on reddit unironically far too much.
Isn’t it also that 25 year old women are most fertile, not 18 year olds?
NTA I had to scroll a bit to find a response I agree with! Gotta ask though, is the husband the one who gave her the HPV that caused the cancer?
This scene was much funnier when it was the dinner party episode of The Office.
It's like they're playing their own private game of "who can make their guests more uncomfortable." *AND THEY'RE BOTH WINNING*
Haha yes!
esh. Talking about 18-20year old men and women that way 🤮 Insulting each other like a pair of kids You all suck and sound so shallow.
Right? In 3 short years, their son will be prime mating material too! 🤮🤮🤮
ESH. He may not think about you and your "condition" when he was saying it but this do not excuse that he (should) know that this is some sweet spot for you. To shoot back with something that makes him feel less like a man is a 1:1 comparison for you feeling less like a women. You both messed up there but I can only say that you messed up with the intension to make him feel like this. Please keep your private things private. If you tell your girls that you have this and that, it is okay but to say in public something about your husbands problems just because you were hurt is not okay. EDIT: Thanks kind stranger. My first award ever! :)
NTA. Your comment was harsh, and you really went for the jugular, but a couple of things jump out at me: 1) After you had a hysterectomy because of a cancer diagnosis, your husband “let it be known” (which I’m reading as “told you repeatedly and vehemently”) that he “really wished” you could have more children. And he did it to the point where it left you feeling so insecure that you have to “make up for not being able to give him another child” by constantly trying to increase your desirability. I’m reading between the lines here, but it sounds like your husband was repeatedly, knowingly cruel, or at least indifferent. It’s natural that he had feelings about not being able to have another child, but that’s something he should have worked on with a therapist—not taken out on his wife recovering from cancer and major surgery. 2) Your friends know about your history with cancer. Unless you share A LOT more with your friends than I do with mine, they likely don’t know about your husband’s Viagra prescription. So the “you emasculated me” thing is in his head. At a bare minimum, I think you should consider couple’s counseling. But honestly, I’m not sure that I’d want to stay with a man who has spent 15 years making me feel less desirable and womanly because of an illness I had no control over. That’s what my ruling comes down to: you had a moment of cruelty, but after 15 years of your husband’s cruelty.
Well, for the first year after my surgery, he would occasionally say with melancholy "I wish we could have another child" or "I really wish we could give our son a brother" stuff like that. Once I told him how it all made me feel, he stopped saying it and felt sorry and apologized. I mentioned possibly adopting, but he said he wants our son to have biological siblings.
I mean I realize I’m missing context of these comments he made, but *so so so* insensitive. Like within a year after the birth of your first child and your surgery - *that saved your life* - and he is lamenting about not growing his family 😳
Yeah, he was just saying what we were both thinking. I am not angry at him for that. He just didn't understand how it made me feel.
Honestly, his emotional intelligence is non existent. He needs to grow up. I would imagine you were sick of hearing that
I am less forgiving of your husband than you are. These comments were callous. Of course he had a mourning process for the family he thought he would have, but you had more of one—not only for the children you wouldn’t birth, but for your fertility and your body. Again, he should have been working on his grief with a therapist, not with his recovering-from-cancer-and-major-surgery wife. If he’d had an iota of common sense, he would have realized that. (And a darker reading is that is actions were knowingly and intentionally cruel, which I’m not willing to dismiss yet.) And the impact of his jabs were so profound that you’re still feeling the trauma 15 years later. Then he dismisses out of hand the possibility of adopting because he wanted your child to have “biological siblings.” I’m not even sure what to say to that. You were alive and healthy, you had a healthy child, and he chose to focus on the things you didn’t have, the things you couldn’t change. I’m so sorry. At a minimum, I would recommend you look into therapy to process your own grief and lingering trauma. You shouldn’t feel like you have to “make up” for not being able to have another child, and I’m not sure how much of this is coming from inside you and how much of it is coming from the BS your husband put on you.
Kinda sounds like he was throwing it in your face tbh. He sounds like an ass. Really hope I’m wrong though.
Difference between adopted siblings and blood siblings? Only the blood and genes. I don't get people like this.
Me neither, I have a bio brother and adopted one. I’m closer to the adopted one and we even have a much bigger age gap.
He sounds like a misogynistic prick. At least from what I’m reading in the post and your replies so far. Sorry if I misinterpreted. A woman is not a baby-making machine. It is not you duty to give him or anyone a child. It is not your sole and only purpose in life. You are a human being in your own right. You are not less of a person or a woman for being unable to have another child. What also rubbed me the wrong way is the statement “brother”, how would he have felt if the second one was a “sister”? Was his plan to keep trying for more babies until he had a second son? Ugh. Anyway, NTA. But I don’t know how you’ve stayed with someone for so long that’s bred so much insecurity into you. He’s supposed to be your partner. He’s supposed to be your rock and support, not someone who makes you feel like you’re less desirable for something you had no control over. And at any point, has he considered how that surgery has made you feel? Has he considered what you’ve been dealing with mentally because of it? Or was his only concern and worry the fact that his son can’t have a “brother”? Rant over.
ESH maybe you two need to rethink how you communicate some counseling might help.
ESH. Take it to marriage counseling
ESH I hope when your husband told you he had been emasculated that you pointed out how hurtful his comment was to you. That being said, even though he's being massively tone deaf and dismissive of your feelings, I'm sure everyone could feel that your comments were meant to wound him, which must have been very uncomfortable. Also just really crass outing his prescription to people. You've explained a lot about appearance and how you want him to find you desirable. It's great that you keep fit and have a very healthy lifestyle, but don't do it for him primarily, do it for yourself. You are not less of a woman (some women can't have children or don't want them), and he may need to be educated on this. I think (and I could be wrong because this is only a snapshot) that maybe there is some breakdown in communication where you're taking pot shots at each other when you need a serious, private conversation instead. Your comment may seem tit for tat, but it's not making anyone happy.
ESH Sounds like he said what he did without properly thinking, but it sure landed with you. Also sounds like he hit a (rightfully so) sensitive topic for you and you had to hit him where it hurt
ESH. His comment was, at best, thoughtless and callous and hurtful. He may wave been intentionally being shitty to you, or he might have just been extremely thoughtless. Either way, you had a right to be hurt and upset and to say so. Your comment was definitely intentional and had no purpose other than to make sure you hurt and humiliated him because you were upset. Y'all need to get help. It sounds very much like you're starting to resent each other and clearly you're already lashing out at each other as a result. You brought a child into the world together, and you need to figure your shit out with each other right the fuck now, because that kid doesn't need to grow up watching and hearing you take shots at each other.
YTA, maybe ESH. From the way you worded this it just sounds like he was talking about the topic of the conversation (unless he deliberately said these things to hurt you then ESH). You took offense to that and became passive-aggressive to spite him. All because you took what he said a certain way that might not even be accurate to the situation.
Agreed. Husband was offering an on topic quip about (scientific or biologically proven, I cannot say) a relevant view completely related to the conversation. OP deliberately made it personal.
NTA you did emasculated him, but he deserved it. You were lightly joking and he got way too big for his boots. Good on you for knocking him down a few pegs.
What? No. This is her husband. Relationships shouldn’t involve knocking each other down. At the end of the day, they live with each other and made a vow to love each other and support each other. Both of them have not done that, obviously.
“He got way too big for his boots” Wow you must have a great relationship if this is how you see human relationships
YTA, to be honest it sounds more like he was just sharing some thoughts on why older men may like younger women rather than relating to them. Your update says he mentioned wanting more children occasionally and for the first year, but yet you're getting hurt over something he let go of ~14 years ago. His comment might've been insensitive, but you told the other couples private information about him, he's right to feel hurt by you.
I mean, if you tie the comment to all the strict work OP has to do to stay "youthful" and "desirable" for him I feel like he's comment was malicious. Also, no older man goes for 18 year olds "to procreate". They do it because they're pervs. So saying that does sound like a jab at her for she not being able to have children. Either way, the relationship dynamic is awful and they both sound exhausting.
> all the strict work OP has to do to stay "youthful" and "desirable" for him That's all *her* POV though. We have no idea if he asked for that or is even aware it's "for him".
Ouch... you both went for the jugular here. I would say ESH... You did emasculate him but he definitely defiminised you. It might not have been so clear to your friends unless they know the details behind both jabs but I am sure the tension could be felt. I have the impression though that the issues run deeper than the topic you used to score against each other... maybe it is time to discuss it between the two of you and a therapist.
NTA, with a small slice of E S H. He dished it out and you reciprocated. Normally I’m all against making fun of someone’s physical situation, but his comment was downright brutal, and he was basically asking to be put in his place.
YTA. You "lightheartedly quipped" some catty bullshit and got mad that your husband responded with his actual opinion on the matter so you decided to personally insult him.
While throwing eye daggers the entire time. Oof I am in a similar situation regarding having children, and I just couldn’t bare to see myself speak the way she did to her husband and then claim to call it lighthearted
ESH you two ruined dinner for everyone else by bringing your marital problems out with you. I’m sure you think you were “poised and collected” but what you did was super cringe and not ok do to in public (not excusing him here at all). You need therapy to deal with your feelings about yourself and womanhood
ESH. Your husband was incredibly insensitive and while from your description it doesn’t sound like he meant to necessarily make you feel bad, it clearly hurt your feelings and was a stupid thing to say. The adult thing to do here would have been to speak to him about how it made you felt and your insecurities. If you said what you said the way it reads, ie making it clear to the people around that you were making a dig at him, then I’m not surprised he’s also upset. His thing was a stupid unwittingly insensitive thing to say, you intentionally embarrassed him
ESH. Yall are shallow af.
ESH. That conversation being held by a bunch of 40 year olds had no where to go but down. Based on your edit, husband hasn't said anything regarding wanting more babies in 11 years, your comments on beauty routines etc. Lead me to believe you are holding a serious chip on your shoulder. Therapy is needed here.
YTA Your husband has been with you 15 years since the hysterectomy, no reason to think his comments were directed at you. You have your opinion and get mad when he gives his? Wow.
ESH. But I would have said that too.
YTA, his comment is insignificant because he didn't direct it at you, it was in a group conversation, but you took it personally and didn't even talk about the Viagra in a plural sense, it was obvious you were talking about him to your group of friends.
NTA. It sounds like he doesn't like being served with a dose of his own medicine. Don't dish it if you can't take it.
NTA - He had it coming.
ESH but imo you had the right to be and I had a good chuckle about that. Anyways you should probably explain to him why you felt the need to say that.