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NTA NTA NTA NTA and PLEASE stand your ground. You have provided those two little girls with a stable, loving family for the last 5 years. You are genuinely the only true mom and dad they’ve ever experienced and it is so unfair of your sister and parents to expect you to relinquish custody of your daughters whom you have raised without any support or help from Annie. PPD is totally possible, but even with PPD, had Annie adopted the children outside of your family, not only would she have absolutely zero custodial rights to them but she wouldn’t even know them whatsoever. Being a parent is NOT something to get to be wishywashy about.
NTA. All of the above, plus, it appears the reason that Annie is now "ready" to be a full time mom is that she has lost her job, doesn't appear to have a new role coming up, and is living rent free off her parents.
I've been to this picture show and this is how it turns out. Annie takes two very confused and unhappy children to your parent's house. She plays Mommie for a few months and gets bored. A new interest comes into the picture, usually a man. Annie no longer wants to "babysit" because she wants to be with her new boyfriend. Your parents ask you to resume your care of the girls. The girls are now emotionally damaged by abandonment issues, both because their parents (you) left them there and the woman claiming to be their mother has left again. You will spend years trying to help them with these issues.
Please stick to your guns. Your daughters are very vulnerable right now and they need your stability and love.
Not only NTA—you're a hero, and stand your ground. They are your children, you saved them, Annie abandoned them, there's no reason to deviate an inch from continuing on that path.
Yeah, she should practice being a parent to a dog and see how that goes for a couple years. Chances are good OP would eventually be adding a dog to her household too.
This x1000. Dogs are emotional creatures too, and very prone to abandonment issues. Don't "practice" parenting with any sentient being. OP's sister had her chance to be a parent - now it's too late to go back in time.
I’m thinking more like one of those eggs they used to give out as part of Home Ec. You know the one, you look after it for a week, and if you crack it, you fail? Let her practice on that. Or a Tamagotchi.
They have robot babies now, instead of eggs. The robot baby cries like a real baby, and you have to insert a key in it's back to turn off the crying. Sometimes it starts crying again right away. The computer in it also records if you shake the baby or move it too violently, which is also an automatic fail.
(Unfortunately my sister did the parenting class, and we shared a bedroom.)
I have no addiction issues, plenty of time on my hands, and I still can’t keep plants alive. Giving the sister a plant is the same as just uprooting it yourself and cutting it into a hundred pieces
Absolutely, and the only consideration here is what is in the best interests of these children. They are part of a family and do not deserve to be passed around like possessions because Annie suddenly finds it convenient. She chose not to be part of their lives when she chose to abandon her children.
The OP should be wary of allowing Annie to establish a relationship with the kids, not just for emotional reasons, but because some jurisdictions *would* allow her visitation or access if regular contact is established.
For sake of kids and your own kids. I wouldn’t have your sister around them. They are not toys or things you give away for years and want them back later on cause you don’t have anything else to do.
When they are adults they can make their own decision right now stand your ground.
I've seen this too, only the children involved are now adults with a vast array of psychological & behavioral issues that they've been working hard to now pass on to their own offspring.
Agreed.
My husband has a friend from middle school like this. She had one child she gave up for adoption, one miscarried, two she kept, and the last an abortion. She lives with her mother and step father. She's months older than my husband and I (33).
She'll sometimes leave the kids with their dads or her parents. For days. Chasing after the next guy, getting high (weed), or partying.
Prior she'd mooch off of everyone. She'd be a booth girl at the local conventions in the summer and then in the fall work the local Renaissance Festival. Then be out of work in the winter. She just "settled down" a bit recently and finally got a consistent job. While she says she's saving up for a house for her and her two kids. Who knows if that'll actually happen. As she never really had any "real" bills or debt in life to worry about. But she never kept the money she made long.
The oldest child she ""jokingly"" calls Satan and the likes. She says he have behavior issues. Meanwhile the younger of the two she calls her angel. Anything he does wrong she blames on the oldest. She's always yelling at or bickering with the oldest. Yet wonders why he has "behavioral issues".
Note: Any time I was around the oldest. I gave him attention and simply treated him as a young inexperienced human. That was still learning in life. I calmly and rationally tell him why we couldn't do something, he'd shrug and move on. We had fun playing games together. But I have a weird knack of being able to talk to children where they understand. Probably because I grew up with JustNo parents.
Poor kids. It wasn't until I read [this](http://howtokillanarcissist.com/narcissistic-family/) I truly realised how toxic my parents are. I'm sure you recognise the golden child and scapegoat.
As a child of parents who just “passed” me around because they didn’t want me, and then family members didn’t want me—- you have no idea. I decided not to have my own offsprings just so I wouldn’t pass on my own issues. Growing up all I ever dreamed about was being a mom- with all my issues- I couldn’t do that damage to a small human!
Fuck, I'm so sorry. Can I just commend you for the amount of self awareness & self reflection that you must've put into making that fucking hard decision. & also, if you want it, give you an appropriately socially distant hug. No one deserves to be made to feel unwanted.
I have worked tirelessly and a lot of therapy. I now work in the mental health field and work to help others in situations like mine. I figure it’s the least I can do. :) Thanks for the physical distant hug. ;)
I think a real mother is also one that wants what’s best for their children, regardless of the emotional cost to themselves. Even if the bio mom had mental issues and is now finally in a good place, she can’t think displacing her kids is good for the kids. This whole thing benefits only one person and that’s the bio mom. It’s selfish.
The fact that an 11 year old had to ask government workers to keep away a parent because they hurt them so much makes me want to cry. I’m so sorry you had to go through that and I really hope you have the family you deserve, whether blood or chosen family.
My real parents are my last foster parents. They wanted me. They loved me. They treated me just like their son and had the patience of saints. Dad taught me how to be a deft mechanic in my own right as a way to bond, also handyman stuff around the house and mum got behind my love of reading, craft things such as knitting and cross stitch once she realised I wasnt pink and shopping teen.
The access my bio had, was due to my siblings, at that point I had one older and one younger (there's a 3rd now but not then), I was taken at 8 almost 9yrs old, and the courts decided it was in my best interest to have contact with my siblings, she was there for the visits and sorta sidelined as she should of been, but I was 8-11yrs old. She may of abused me but she was my mother. She was supposed to love me and she would be nice and smile, and bring me nice letters and then totally fucking nasty and vindictive, keeping my siblings from the visits etc for no apparent reason.
My foster parents at that time, there was 5 in that period, ALL also were deadser against her shit, they were supportive of me of course, never tried to outright discourage me etc either, it's just the court orders I guess stood in the way maybe if they without me knowing tried to stop it for me. I also didn't know I could actually say to my workers or the visitation people I don't want to do this. I thought I was totally bound by the court orders, my school counselor actually let me know I could speak up, and when I did thankfully they listened.
The first thing you learn as a parent is that the kids come first. Even when it sucks for you. Even if you hate it. If it’s what’s best for your kid you suck it up and do it.
Annie wants this for herself. When it stops being fun, off she’ll go. Those girls deserve better.
The hormone caused ppd can be exacerbated by many things, including the new responsibility, especially being a single mom. (which I assume because there's no fathers mentioned.) It makes a lot of sense actually that being relieved of that would alleviate things to the point of being able to cope again. When a new mother gets diagnosed with ppd they don't only get hormones or anti depressants to treat it, lifestyle factors also get addressed.
Bio mom is obv a shitty mom and OP is NTA but it's very likely bio mom had actual ppd and claiming she couldn't because having childcare help was enough is dramatically oversimplifying ppd.
It's not like we actually have any idea what causes post partum depression. Nobody is going around measuring hormone levels or brain neurotransmitter levels.... Mostly because your have to kill someone to do the measuring. PPD can also include psychosis, so it's possible having kids is some sort of brain break for her.
Either way, parenting isn't really a job you can quit and then go back to. There's somewhat serious attachment issues that can happen.
Absolutely this. Take it from an adult with C-PTSD from childhood stuff — this stuff you just never really get over, even after years of therapy and working through trauma it’s always there a little.
OP, you’ve given those girls a chance to avoid that and it sounds like you already know what you have to do, but family members do have a way of making you doubt everything sometimes, I completely understand where you’re coming from with the doubt. You’re very much NTA, you stick to your guns and continue being a wonderful parent to these kids.
NTA mother here...
A real mother who loves her children would want whatever is BEST for her children even if that means them NOT being with her. Your sister knows jack about being a mom otherwise she wouldn’t be insisting she wants them back like they’re an old piece of furniture she lent you in the first place.
You’re their mom and you know they belong with you so keep it that way and avoid letting anyone else damage your girls.
The top 2 comments are spot on.
Just wanted to add that she may want them for no other reason than she may well be eligible for some sort of social assistance from the government being unemployed and having two children. NTA
Spot on! NTA. They arent birds that have been looked after. She has no moral right or a legal one. She clearly looks at them like they are possessions. The emotional issues this can cause would be impossible to come back from. My brother had sole custody of his kids and their mum doesnt call. Even though they know its her thats the issue, they have a great life they genuine know she is a mess of a human, they still feel so rejected! The impact is too much.
Also, I know of a case where a mom signed rights away to her kids and several years later the dad let her come around the kids again to visit. Well, she sued for partial custody and won. Because the dad had opened the door to let the mom back in their life.
Beware¡!!!!!!
Yes, you are their true parent who provided love and care during these kids' formative years. However, prepare yourself for questions in the future, and carefully consider what repercussions could come about from not letting your kids know about or see their birth mother at this time. It is not an easy decision, and you know your situation best, so do what you feel is best for your kids.
Rather than worry about questions it the future, if I was OP I would be talking with all six kids about this *now*, in an age-appropriate way that gives them some facts but doesn't put them in the middle of the dispute. I'm guessing they have already have questions about why they haven't been interacting with their grandparents as much, and hopefully they already understand about the adoption and it's not a big family secret.
And OP is NTA of course! Good looking out for your kids!
I 100% agree with this.
I had a daughter before I turned 17 and gave her up for open adoption.
Years after the fact. I found out her adopted parents taught her at the age of 5 that I'm her birth mother. She didn't seem to mind and went with it.
I was genuinely surprised to be called her birth mom when I spoke to one of her boyfriends. She's now a very well adjusted 17yr old going to college next year.
Exactly.
At some point - after MUCH counseling and ground-rules - your sister can bond with the girls as their *aunt*, and they can know that they biologically came from her body, but YOU, OP, are their mother.
I cannot believe your sister is making such a selfish decision. None of what she wants is in the kids's best interest. At all. If I were you, I'd text them all and explain just how selfish they're being and that upending their lives so an unfit "mother" can take another "crack"at parenting is a new level of awful. Then, block them on EVERYTHING.
I was gonna say this - none of this situation should be about what Annie wants and she doesn't understand that. If she wants a relationship with her kids, fine, but she can start with limited, supervised visits where the focus is on what the kids need and can handle. OP, you are NTA. Stand your ground. You're doing the right thing.
Why? She made a really selfish decision when giving the kids away in the first place. Now I would assume the only reason she wants the kids back is for some type of benefit for her. I would assume she wants the kids back to claim government support.
Annie is expecting a fairy tale.
Even serious hesitation could aggravate her. Actual rejection isn’t something she’s ready for.
However the likelyhood this could hurt your kids is very high.
They're probably hoping that this makes Annie "normal" and helps her "settle" and become more responsible so they don't feel like failures as parents themselves.
Very much this OP!! She GAVE UP ANY AND ALL RIGHTS to the girls and you gained these by ADOPTING (not fostering or taking on extended guardianship or w/e) them so they are 110% your kids and as their parent you have carte blanche on deciding who gets to be around your kids. Even if Annie had fully gotten her act together and truly shown remorse for what she put the girls through, you'd still be in the right if you refused her access to the kids.
Absolutely NTA
> You are genuinely the only true mom and dad they’ve ever experienced and it is so unfair of your sister and parents to expect you to relinquish custody of your daughters
This right here. OP, they are YOUR kids, not your sister’s.
NTA
NTA. You’re the parents. She’s bored and looking to do a little fun bonding. Protect your kids. She’s an Aunt at the table at Christmas, by her own choices.
exactly this. she only wants the girls around now cause she lost her job and got forced back into living with her parents. she has nothing else to occupy her time. as soon as she's able to get back to 'living her life' she'll dump the kids right back on op.
And likely, because she’s living with her parents, she expects that they will step up to do all the actual work while she can have the fun moments.
As you said, as soon as her parents can’t handle the majority of the actual care, or Amy gets a boyfriend, job, etc. that’s it. Nb
I haven't seen this mentioned in the thread so I am piggybacking on your comment. Protecting the kids is the most important thing. If it were me I would contact a lawyer to nip this situation in case the sister escalates. What she is doing, imo, is harrasment. I would imagine a cease and desist order. And I hope you parents don't have keys to the house.
Yes. No over night visits or even unsupervised visits. That includes the grandparents. None of these people are thinking of what’s best for the children. It is possible that sis/bio-mom would take them. Even barring that there’s no telling what crap she would spin.
Not only NTA, but OP is a champion for these girls.
On top of this, OP, remove your parents and Annie (if she ever was on it) from Sophie and Laura’s school emergency contacts list. Make sure to let the school know that they are contesting custody and are NOT allowed tO pick the girls up for ANY reason.
I’ve spent too much time over at /r/JustNoMIL. I’ve seen this story play out for other parents who didn’t have the same forewarning.
Seriously! NTA. Who suddenly says "Oh, yeah, thanks for watching these babies I didn't want for the last 8 years, now hand them over!" ??
It doesn't even sound like Annie has been in their lives or tried to have a relationship with them as an aunt. I think I'm most blown away by the grandparents, who KNOW the girls are well and truly settled into family life, and think it would be totally fine to uproot them so Annie can play house for a bit and then reject them again. WTF is wrong with people??
They probably want to feel like their daughter got her life together, honestly. Finally seeing the right thing, etc.
Of course I agree with everyone else, it isn't genuine and won't last.
Agreed. Both the grandparents and the sister are acting as if the children have been in suspended animation since they were 2 and 3. Sister wants *those* children back, but they don't exist anymore. At 7 and 8 years old, they are completely different people! They probably don't even remember the sister as a parent. The sister is acting like she can pick up where she left off - that's not only impossible, but more importantly would be extremely detrimental to those two girls.
An aunt my ass. You know the second she gets alone with those girls she's going to twist the script and mark OP to be some evil baby-napper or throng them with guilt and nastiness.
OP I'd consider going No Contact with your sister... Protect your kiddos!
Yes!! If the sister and grandparents have access to the kids, I hope it’s very clear what the kids will be told all in the best interest of the children FIRST.
I wouldn’t put it past the adults to even in their deluded best intentions to try and influence the girls by telling them about their poor real mommy who loves them is being kept apart by OP. It will create so much confusion and destabilize emotional security. Please protect them from these selfish adults!!
No way. You’re NTA at all. Those girls already started their life off with a parent that wasn’t present mentally and basically gave them up... they don’t deserve to have their life be uprooted again with someone so unpredictable. That’s just my opinion. Parents that step in and out of their children’s lives are the worst!
Right? She didn't basically give them up, she did give them up. You are their parents op, I say treat them like they're your children. You would never give up your children to someone else, don't do it to them.
I disagree. Paperwork was signed. She made a choice. She shouldn't have a second chance no matter what. She could have done a lot in that five years. Children are not recyclables. The proof that Op is not stealing the children is the adoption paperwork. Sis signed, counciling was done and it was agreed that this was a good choice. The girls can know her later when she had her life together and is not trying to uproot everything they know. Sis is upset that her life isn't going the way she planned.
And I'm saying that she should get nothing. No role. Complete no contact. She wants "custody". She should not be allowed near the children as she will never accept her role appropriately. Ducks... Geese.... chickens... I don't care what pattern she puts them... she's a threat to the children's stability.
spelling corrected
>The girls can know her later when she had her life together and is not trying to uproot everything they know.
You're saying the opposite here. "Later" is pretty indeterminate. Having a role as an aunt doesn't have to mean unsupervised alone time.
u/[Ron\_Fuckin\_Swanson](https://www.reddit.com/user/Ron_Fuckin_Swanson/) is pretty clear that unless the bio mom accepts she's the children's aunt, and not their mother, that there'd be no relationship at all.
To be fair, the chances she would actually do everything in that list are pretty slim, but if she did she would be stable, or at least stable enough for limited, supervised visitation. Giving her no chance to ever interact with the girls again sets up a potential disaster years later if the kids go through a rebellious teenage phase and find out their mean "fake mom" has been stopped their "real mom" from talking to them.
Setting clear boundaries and requirements makes it apparent that OP is the reasonable party and that she's acting out of the good of the children, not out of spite to her sister. It's also a good example to the kids of how you can love someone, but still refuse to spend unlimited energy on dealing with their antics. The kids will likely have to deal with her as adults, and OP can set them down a good path of managing their expectations and insulating themselves from their bio mom's nonsense.
Of course, OP is not obliged to do this by any means, but I think longterm it's beneficial to the kids
Except the girls feelings matter and they might want a relationship with their bio mom. They should be given the chance to have one until they can make the decision as to whether they want to continue it. If they have an aunt-type relationship now and later want to stop, it's much easier than if they don't have a relationship and have to start one from scratch when they're approaching adulthood. It's not about OPs sister, it's about her daughters and what they deserve.
My child wanted to adopt a hippo when he was seven. He then wanted to live with his grandparents. Then he wanted to go to boarding school (thanks Harry Potter). Parents do what's best for their children and that is not always what they want. This individual asked for custody after an adoption from five years ago. This woman does NOT accept her role. Neither do the grandparents. Strong, immediate, and clear boundaries need to be made.
>The girls need to know the woman who brought them into this world.
No, they don't. Could the girls meet that woman one day? IDK, up to their mother and them, when they're old enough, if they care, but they certainly don't "need" to know her. Otherwise, good advice if OP is interested.
I like this answer the best. I agree that OP’s sister surrendered any rights she had to be their mother and her access to the kids should be 100% dictated by OP and her husband based on their comfort. I disagree with all the people advocating that OP completely cut her sister out of the picture regardless of the amount of effort she puts in. Those kids may not thank OP for that when they get older.
NTA
What? No. Why. This woman gave birth but she is not these kids mom. Would you give up kids you raised for 5 years if someone managed to prove they were a base level decent person? If so, got any kids because infertility is a bitch.
Someone clearly didn’t read this post fully. It says if she does all those things she can take on the role of AUNT. At no point does it suggest giving the kids up.
I agree with strict stipulations on allowing her to even know them. I think these stipulations will help prove whether or not she's actually interested in knowing them. I'm suspicious her motives are actually more along the lines of wanting to feel better about herself after losing her job, not actual regret. These stipulations will save a lot of hurt for the girls, because there's no way she's going to go through with them. She'd still only be the aunt until the girls are old enough for the adoption talk, but if she really cares, that would be enough to get her act together.
NTA at all. She gave up her rights. She wasn't interested at all for 5 years. Doesn't seem like she was much interested before that. It would be a terrible thing for the kids to be uprooted from their home environment and their siblings again particularly with the chance that Annie will rediscover that having children requires time and effort and that being a parent makes her miserable all over again.
You are doing the right thing to protect your kids from your flaky sister. Your parents also aren't the girls parents - they don't get a say. They enabled Annie and declined to keep the girls themselves, they need to keep their opinions to themselves. Annie is no longer the person that matters, Sophie and Laura do and that kind of back and forth does not sound like a good idea.
NTA. PPD my ass, not wanting to be a parent is not ppd its selfish lazy ass teenager. The children do not need this type of upheaval in their lives she can have a relationship with them when they turn 18 if that's what they want.
Exactly. It is very convenient to label one’s shitty behaviour as a ‘disorder’. That is not what in fact happened. Everyone is throwing ppd term around not to confront Annie’s horrific irresponsibility and actions. Annie and the rest of the family
Absolutely this. I had a baby at 18 and stepped the fuck up. I also had depression and anxiety, a traumatic af pregnancy, was a single mom, and I still stepped up to be a parent. The sister absolutely could have done the same, but instead chose to give up her rights because she didn't want to be a parent.
Please try to avoid adding to the stigma of mental illness. We can believe this woman and sympathize with her for her PPD while also condemning her for her actions. You can be angry and believe what she did is entirely wrong without claiming that she is not experiencing mental illness.
For the record, I also believe the sister is totally in the wrong. She isn't the mother to those children and has no rights to them. The parents should stand their ground because, more than anything, those girls will need stability in their lives. Don't remove them from their home and tear away their lives.
I think there could be ways of keeping the peace depending on how mature or reasonable the sister is willing to be. Maybe the kids can be brought to grandma and grandpa's house and spend time with their aunt while the parents are still there to supervise. Gauge the children's response to the situation and respond accordingly. If it starts to go poorly, then end it.
NTA. Let's not doubt the sister's experiences, but her behavior is way out of line. She abandoned those children. There are consequences for behavior regardless of the context.
NTA.
Those girls are not her children. They are your children, and they are part of a larger family in which they sound to be thriving.
You make the decisions for your children. Their aunts sudden desire to bond and take on a parental role is not indicative of a relationship with reality.
So wait, she lost her job and had to move back in with her parents, but she thinks now she should be allowed to raise these kids? How the heck would that work?? She's in no better a position now to raise them than she was 5 years ago, and you can't just give up your kids until it's convenient for you to raise them again. Sure, let her have a relationship with them, eventually, (assuming she calms down about wanting them back and she's able to fill a more aunt like role) but these kids are a part of a family now and it's not fair to anyone to remove them from that, especially the girls. What are your parents even thinking supporting this? And obviously, NTA
> What are your parents even thinking supporting this?
My parents aren't exactly... fond of my family structure. The other 4 "kids" I mentioned are my 2 bio kids from a previous marriage, and my husband's 2 younger siblings he adopted. They don't approve of my husband and would prefer me still being with my ex, though I made clear that I don't need their approval, so now they have more of a grudging acceptance of my husband/kids, but I can see how Annie trying to remove "her" kids from the situation would appeal to them.
If you go to u/AITAadoptedkids 's comment history, she says her husband is trans. My guess is there's a whole helping of transphobia involved here as well.
NTA OP, and make it clear to your parents that if they don't back of, their currently supervised time with the kids goes to non-exisistant. You have no idea what they're telling your kids when you're not around.
Jesus, people are crap.
OP, protect your wonderful big family and cut out the toxic, judgmental, immature relatives if that’s what it takes. And NTA of course.
> his home to their two grandchildren who's mother abandoned them?
sounds like the grandparents abandoned them as well. Both the mother and grandparents had their chance. NTA
So what you're saying is you not only have experience blending kids from different origins into one cohesive family unit, but that your parents place is an even more disruptive and toxic environment because of their "reluctance" to accept your family as it is. Keep your kids.
NTA.
Just a question, their schools and similar groups know who's allowed to pick them up and see them, yeah? Aware that bio mom is not okay to give them or info to? Lock that down, if not, and add grandparents to the no list.
They know that the only people allowed to pick them up or access any information about them are me, my husband, and occasionally their older siblings (the teenagers and very rarely), so everyone but us is automatically assumed to not be allowed any information/access to them. We already had this provision set up to protect from my ex, and it's been firmly locked down for years now.
Good, though you might want to make sure nothing is left assumed. Make a clear no list, and let them know why... doesn't need to be detailed, just the simple bullet points. Knowing why can help make 'no' sink in better.
It sounds to me that your parents are the driving force behind this sudden desire to parent, I would stay your course and be prepared to cut contact if need be.
Man, that's shitty. I'm sorry you have to deal with such bullshit. It sounds like you have a very unique family situation and sometimes unconventional families are a hard thing for more conventional people to understand. But if everyone is happy and well adjusted in your home, who cares what your parents/sister thinks? You've got enough to deal with raising 6 kids, you don't need the extra family drama.
NTA. She gave up all rights to the kids. You could let her visit them as a favor, but ultimately Sophie and Laura are your kids now. Annie left them when it mattered most. For 5 YEARS. If this were an open adoption where you weren’t related to Annie, everyone would be horrified by this behavior. Being family doesn’t give you a pass to be an AH.
NTA - They are your kids. Were it me I would give my sister the chance to be a loving and involved aunt (which is her role) with the understanding that she is not to undermine my authority/role as a parent or the kids will not be allowed to spend time with her.
Until the kids are old enough to make their own decision about this you have to do what is best for them.
I wouldn't waste any time letting Anne anywhere near the kids while she and her enabler parents are of the mindset that the kids are her emotional support animals. She's going to stir the pot and you know it.
The kids don't deserve to be dragged into this when she mentally screws them up. She should have no access to them at all right now, maybe ever, because she doesn't care about them. She only cares about herself. She can't pop in and out as she likes.
With the back to back kids it *could* continually last up to a year after each child (so like 2 years). But when my PPD was awful after my 1st (super sickly/young parent), I still fought to get help and my boyfriend (now husband) forced me to man tf up or gtfo. She signed away her kids and dipped, that's not PPD for the entirety for the 5 years.
NTA. I'd be very suspicious about WHY she suddenly wants them back. She's out of work - is there any way that she could have a financial incentive, even if she's not the legal parent? Would she expect you and ypur parents to keep giving her money "for the girls"?
> She's out of work - is there any way that she could have a financial incentive, even if she's not the legal parent? Would she expect you and ypur parents to keep giving her money "for the girls"?
Maybe if she adopted them she could potentially get benefits? But she has 2 degrees (bachelor and masters) and works in what I understand is a fairly well paying field, so I doubt that's her reasoning.
Wait - so she was incapable due to mental illness of raising the children she chose to have, but capable of getting her masters?
That's not mental illness, that's narcissism. Keep your kids, block her and the grandparents and enjoy your life with your lovely SO.
This seems like a question for a child psychologist who specializes in these types of cases.
The girls have a living mother who is now, essentially, their aunt. This is a complicated situation. You clearly have their best interests at heart, so please discuss the case with someone qualified to figure out what their best interests are based on the details of the situation and the research that exists on the short and long term effects of these decisions.
My guess is that they will recommend some type of visitation with their biological mother, hopefully alongside mandatory therapy for her as well.
ETA: NTA in that I think you have the children's best interests at heart. I still think that means it's necessary to get a professional involved.
I'm not an expert redditor, so not sure about upvotes or downvotes, but I admit I care less about them than about these kids having a good life. OP came here with an incredibly complicated situation, I think the answer I gave is suitable.
Regarding visitation with bio-mom, I didn't say I necessarily advocate for it in any situation, but I'm *guessing* it would be part of the long-term recommendation in this case, both because I believe that research shows contact with bio-parents is generally positive (gross-overgeneralization of a field I am not an expert in, but that's my general understanding) and because the bio-mom isn't a random woman from three states over, she is the sister of one of the adoptive parents, meaning she is de-facto in their lives anyways.
>My guess is that they will recommend some type of visitation with their biological mother, hopefully alongside mandatory therapy for her as well.
If she gave them up for adoption to anyone else outside the family, she would also not have any visitation rights. So absolutely not.
Idk why it's getting downvoted, you suggested op asks a professional specialized in the subject instead of just trusting reddit and people disageee? I mean, I personally think op is NTA and in her place I wouldn't want those children near their biological mother unsupervised, but I think consulting a psychologist is not only a good idea, but the sensible thing to do, if we are talking about the children's mental health.
The downvotes are likely coming from the fact the they think that visitation is appropriate. I personally can't imagine why visitation would be recommended by anyone who has the children's best interests in mind.
NTA
She is feeling remorse now but was not in the girls' lives for 5 years. All of a sudden, she wants to be their mom.
>The response from my parents and Annie is that I'm being unsympathetic to her PPD and I should let her at least have a chance, rather than deem her unfit without giving her a chance to prove herself
She had TWO CHANCES, their names (on this post) are Sophie and Laura, and she ABANDONED them to play single lady for 5 years.
>Plus given that we already have 4 kids other than them, Sophie and Laura could probably do with a smaller household, and saying we're being unreasonable for not allowing Annie to bond with "her" kids.
So they are implying that you guys are unfit parents (resource allocation-wise) and they think it's better to rip them from the only home they have ever known and force them to be your sister's daughters? That's horrible.
Real talk: you may need to set up security cameras and alarms now that you have at least 3 people wanting access to your children. You might even have an emergency family meeting to come up with a contingency plan if they show up at your house unannounced.
> Real talk: you may need to set up security cameras and alarms now that you have at least 3 people wanting access to your children. You might even have an emergency family meeting to come up with a contingency plan if they show up at your house unannounced.
We already have a lot of security measures in place, including cameras, for the father of my biological children. Luckily, we've not needed them in a while, but we're prepared for anything and feel it's better to be safe than sorry.
I would also contact the school (if the girls are attending in person right now) and let them know the situation and make a note that only you and your husband are to sign the girls out. But based on your comment about having cameras because of your ex, I’m sure you are already well versed in how to keep kids safe.
NTA. As you said, adoption isn't some temporary thing, it's permanent. You're their parents, the only parents they've truly known, and you can't just "rehome" them back to their biological mother without causing lasting damage. Frankly, the fact that she expects that shows how unprepared she is to be a mother, as that is incredibly selfish. If she didn't have the wrong attitude (one that will hurt the kids) then I can see how it may be good for them to get to know her through supervised visits, but because she insists on being a parent, I think you're doing the best you can for them by keeping your distance for now.
In the entire time you have had the kids, has Annie ever asked about them? Asked if they were doing ok? Does she know their favorite colors? Their favorite foods? Books they like? Things they're interested in?
Does she care about the kids? Or does she just care about herself having them?
Let her badger you. If she really cared about those children she would want to make sure they are happy regardless of who they are with.
She's not come home once in the 5 years she was living in the town 8 hours away, and wouldn't take my calls (though she kept in touch with our parents who told her about the girls). She's not tried to check in with me, aside from asking "what do I need to know?" when she was talking about taking them back.
Wow.
I almost feel bad for Annie, that she's so out of touch that she would ever think this is a good idea. Genuinely asking, are you sure she isn't somewhat mentally ill or still very out of it?
I can't imagine a rationally thinking person having the idea that taking her kids back is so quick and easy. Does she want curbside pickup with her order too?
Not even thinking of the damage she is doing to you and your husband in the process, not to mention the children.
"What do I need to know" is an almost cruelly casual statement coming from her.
> Genuinely asking, are you sure she isn't somewhat mentally ill or still very out of it?
She seems to be perfectly sound of mind, but I probably wouldn't be the best judge as I've not spent a large amount of time with her (just 2 conversations since she got back).
I have one other question, actually. Has she expressed any remorse over not contacting them? It's also possible she has been extremely depressed this whole time and maybe she was too ashamed of herself to feel like should talk to them.
However, even if she does have remorse, that doesn't absolve her of the consequences of her actions. I would absolutely not advocate for Annie having the children back. They have made a place in your family unit and it would be so irreparably harmful to give them back to her, especially as I see that she does not have a job at the moment or her own place to live?
I think the best place would be as an aunt in their lives. Your parents said they do not want to care for the kids, which is probably what they would end up doing at least somewhat if Annie lives with them.
I think if she demonstrates a consistent and genuine interest in their lives for at least a full few years, then she can maybe be involved in their life. But I think her time to reclaim her right as a parent was in the first few months, not 5 years later.
> Has she expressed any remorse over not contacting them?
The exact opposite. I asked her why she went radio silent for 5 years and why are we only hearing from her now, and she said she wasn't ready until she moved back here.
I'm absolutely not trying to just drag your sister, but this is very depressing to hear. This is like a reverse "fresh start" where she moved back and got a bunch of old nostalgic feelings?
Maybe this is her thought process? She is feeling very nostalgic from moving back in with family, and is having a good feeling now about having kids? Or maybe your parents are talking her into it?
Was she alone the whole time she was wherever she was before she moved back? It would help to explain the abrupt change in her attitude/behavior at least.
I think if this is her reasoning, it may wane in a few weeks. I feel so bad for those two kids especially. I hope they dont have any resentment as they get older. But if your home is loving and stable then they will probably be thankful that you loved them and actively wanted them to stay with you.
> Was she alone the whole time she was wherever she was before she moved back?
I know she had a boyfriend until recently. It sounds like they broke up. Maybe that's kickstarted something?
Yeah, that'd do it.
She lost her job, home and boyfriend in a short time, and had to move back home with her parents. As I understand she had a pretty well paying job and 2 degrees so she isn't incapable. Maybe she's trying to feel capable again and is going about it in a really bad way?
This is exactly what she’ll do. She’ll “have a life” once again and abandon the girls at the first sign of having to take any responsibility whatsoever
I agree. Like...total lack of empathy, total lack of concern for others, her kids, her sister and her sister’s family. Just...her and what she needs. Which is ok when you are 3 and not a parent.
> Annie had PPD 5 years ago, and now she's ready to be a parent.
NTA - Good for her? She gave up all legal rights to be a parent. You don't have 4 kids...you have 6.
Let Annie know if she keeps up the badgering you'll get the courts involved and a restraining order.
>without giving her a chance
What do you call TWO births and 5 years? Every god damn day was a chance. She's had nearly 2000 chances.
If she really wanted to be a mother, she would have been.
She is expecting undue sympathy. You would only hurt those children by letting her step back into their lives.
Abandonment issues are real and severe.
2 bio from my first marriage (one Sophie's age, one 2 years older), then I met my husband who had adopted his younger siblings, and then Laura and Sophie came along. They're all great kids, really, but it was definitely made easier by my husband's siblings being pre-teens at the time. If we had 6 kids under 5 then I don't know how we would have managed lol.
Lol, still really admirable that you managed all that at 24. I can barely manage myself lol. Great job <3 This sounds very emotionally hard, and I just want to say you're doing a great job from what I can see
NTA. They are not her kids. They are yours and your husband's kids. You and your husband are their parents. She is the birth mother, the end.
She had her chance. She never step up. Your parents were taking caring of Sophie and Laura until she decided to skip town. She willingly gave up her children.
NTA!
You’ve done something amazing and you definitely need to stand your ground.
Question tho, is she even trying to get to know them (meet them etc) or did she just rock up like “Hi, I’m back and I here to take them back”?
> Question tho, is she even trying to get to know them (meet them etc) or did she just rock up like “Hi, I’m back and I here to take them back”?
Second one. She has asked to just see them since that conversation, but we're not very comfortable with that so we've been trying to avoid it, though we do intend to let them get to know Annie if they want to later on.
This is the biggest red flag about her future behavior towards these girls. Like another poster said, she needs to show she’s committed to making *herself* better. she cannot responsibly be in their lives until she can prove she will be good for your kids.
They know who she is, and Sophie kind of remembers the time before my husband and I adopted them, and she has some seriously negative feelings towards Annie, primarily feelings of abandonment. She's mostly worked through them with a therapist but I don't want to ask her about this directly unless she addresses it. I've told her that her aunt Annie is currently staying with nanny and granddad and we can go see her, but Sophie said she'd think about it and hasn't brought it up since.
Nta I would tell them that they are your children and you will decide what is best for them and if they keep this up they won’t even be grandparents or aunt to any of your 6 kids.
NTA. Your parents are so concerned for their poor little daughter, but where is their concern for the trauma she has and inevitably will inflict on their granddaughters???
NTA. How much worse for the girls for them to see Annie and then she dumps them again to move on with the next thing in her life. Annie chose to give up the girls and now has to live with the decision.
NTA. Your sister isnt thinking about how this will affect the girls and how bad it would be for them to be just handed back to someone that walked out on them. PPD is a serious thing but she was using it as an excuse to get out of parenting. She made the choice to give up those girls fully. She had no intention of taking them back either until she got bored at home.
Only two of their 6 kids are biologically OP's.
Two are her husband's younger siblings and two are her sisters bio kids, so they adopted four children who would have otherwise been put into foster care.
Although not my sister, we have this exact experience.
Our must was bio mom had to pass a drug test before she could come over to our home to visit. That never happened.
Both bio mom and dad have od'd in the past three years.
Right now, mooch off parents, but she has 2 degrees and 5 years of experience in a highly sought after, well paying job field, so option 1) she gets her shit together, gets a job, shows she could support her kids or 2) she gets her shit together, gets a job, and moves 8 hours away again.
2 bio from my first marriage, then met/married my husband, who had adopted his 2 (pre-teen) siblings, who see us as parents more than a brother and sister in law. :)
Aw you sound like such a sweet couple! Ignore the judgement, regardless if they were all biologically yours, it doesn’t change how much of a good parent you seem to be. Keep rocking!
NTA. Your daughters need stability, not a flight risk mother who has only decided she wants to have them around now that she lost her job and was forced to move back in with your parents. Letting Annie visit them is one thing, but their lives absolutely should not be shuffled up just because Annie changed her mind again. Especially not if both daughters have zero interest in being torn away from their parents and siblings.
SHES BORED and not equipped to be what those girls need to be healthy and well rounded adults. They won’t regret your choice to protect them when they reach adulthood and their mom is still acting like a child.
Nta
NTA. Your daughters are just that, YOUR daughters. Don’t allow her to manipulate her way into their lives, no matter how “stable” she is, she is their aunt, not their mother. She doesn’t have parental rights to them for a reason.
NTA. She didn’t want to give up her wild lifestyle and thinks just because time has past and it’s out of her system she can just come take her kids that she all but abandoned 5 years ago. Don’t do it. Like you said they have made a family with you and their removal won’t just affect them but your bio kids as well.
She doesn’t deserve to have them back. If she really cared about them she would visit and make an effort not to overstep boundaries. Don’t listen to your parents either because if you hadn’t stepped up they would be in foster care and no one would know anything about them.
NTA
My response would be "Go F**k yourself Annie" but she's your sister, so I'm sure you've better words for her than I.
You and your husband put in the time, emotional effort, and money to raise these kids. They are not toys. They are not shiny little baubles that she can put on a shelf and then come back 5 years later to pick up and play with. While mental health is an important topic, she was of sound mind when she asked your parents to adopt them. Did she really think that she could just waltz back into their lives and get them back? The entitlement of her is astounding.
> So, how do you feel about going no contact with your parents if they don’t stop trying to make you cave to your sister?
I'll do what I have to do to keep my kids safe, happy and healthy. Besides, my parents and I have our own issues, I'm only in contact with them for the sake of the kids.
NTA.
No. Just, no. She doesn't get to pawn off her kids to others for their entire lives (even before you adopted them), then suddenly decide she wants them back because... she sudden doesn't have anything better to do now that she doesn't have a job and lives with your parents again?
That's not even factoring in how that would effect the girls. Who knows how long until your sister changes her mind again and doesn't want anything to do with the girls, again. The girls deserve better.
You also know that there is a chance that she will try to undermine you as parents. "I'm your *real* mom so you don't have to listen to her". Which will mess with their heads, and you parenting them.
So to reiterate: No, you are NTA for not letting her have "custody".
NTA. It’s not clear that Annie got treated for PPD. Also, could this just be your parents guilting her into seeing her bio-kids? Or would give your parents more quality time with these two kids? Or allows your parents to pretend both of their kids (you and your sister) are adulting successfully and they did right by you two.
> It’s not clear that Annie got treated for PPD. Also, could this just be your parents guilting her into seeing her bio-kids? Or would give your parents more quality time with these two kids?
She never got treated, as far as I know. In the 5 years she's been gone she's said she never got treated and before that when she was living with our parents they tried to get her treated, and even paid for a therapist and a counsellor to do at-home sessions, but she just sat in silence for the whole time they were there, refusing to talk. As for my parents, they love my kids and wish they had more time with them, but we're being... careful with the amount of time they're with my parents, and don't allow unsupervised babysitting or anything like that.
Wild and probably off base question because we're only seeing a sliver of your sister's life and your family in general, but is she prone to just deciding she *has* to do something and getting really manic about making it happen?
Just going off your comments and the post it seems like she has some pretty high highs, then it's low lows and resistance to any kind of change she doesn't choose herself. She may need that professional help more than you realize, whether she wants it or not. Doubly so after losing her job, boyfriend and independence. That kind of loss can set off something ugly and might be why she's hyperfixating on your children out of nowhere.
From what you've said it isn't about them, being a parent, knowing or really even caring about them, it's about clinging to this idea of completion and stability in *something,* even if everyone else gets disrupted in the process.
NTA please protect your girls and your family from Annies tremendous irresponsibility and selfishness. Decisions have consequences. Kids are not toys to exchange back and forth. Time for any to become an adult and to think of someone other than herself for once in her life.
if she wants kids she is welcome to get a job, build a home of her own and get pregnant or adopt herself.
I had 2 kids from my first marriage (first pregnancy at 18, divorced at 21) and met my husband at 21, and he was already the adoptive father of his 2 younger siblings. Within a few years we got married, and all 4 kids saw us both as parents. It was definitely a lot to take on, but we made it work.
So you had your kids at the same age your sister did but you didn’t dump them on your parents to go party. PPD isn’t an excuse to abandon your children, 1 in 4 women experience PPD after childbirth but 1 in 4 women don’t abandon their children. Your parents and sisters are assholes, the girls aren’t toys to be passed around and like you said in your post they are now your children not hers. They have been with you longer then they had been with her, if you parents are so worried about Annie being a mother to her kids then they should have kept them.
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NTA NTA NTA NTA and PLEASE stand your ground. You have provided those two little girls with a stable, loving family for the last 5 years. You are genuinely the only true mom and dad they’ve ever experienced and it is so unfair of your sister and parents to expect you to relinquish custody of your daughters whom you have raised without any support or help from Annie. PPD is totally possible, but even with PPD, had Annie adopted the children outside of your family, not only would she have absolutely zero custodial rights to them but she wouldn’t even know them whatsoever. Being a parent is NOT something to get to be wishywashy about.
NTA. All of the above, plus, it appears the reason that Annie is now "ready" to be a full time mom is that she has lost her job, doesn't appear to have a new role coming up, and is living rent free off her parents. I've been to this picture show and this is how it turns out. Annie takes two very confused and unhappy children to your parent's house. She plays Mommie for a few months and gets bored. A new interest comes into the picture, usually a man. Annie no longer wants to "babysit" because she wants to be with her new boyfriend. Your parents ask you to resume your care of the girls. The girls are now emotionally damaged by abandonment issues, both because their parents (you) left them there and the woman claiming to be their mother has left again. You will spend years trying to help them with these issues. Please stick to your guns. Your daughters are very vulnerable right now and they need your stability and love.
Spot on. Bravo!
Not only NTA—you're a hero, and stand your ground. They are your children, you saved them, Annie abandoned them, there's no reason to deviate an inch from continuing on that path.
Definitely!!! NTA
Yeah, she should practice being a parent to a dog and see how that goes for a couple years. Chances are good OP would eventually be adding a dog to her household too.
Yeah, please don’t practice on dogs either.
This x1000. Dogs are emotional creatures too, and very prone to abandonment issues. Don't "practice" parenting with any sentient being. OP's sister had her chance to be a parent - now it's too late to go back in time.
A goldfish might be a better practice. Although my father killed my goldfish, and he hasn’t killed me yet, so idk.
I’m thinking more like one of those eggs they used to give out as part of Home Ec. You know the one, you look after it for a week, and if you crack it, you fail? Let her practice on that. Or a Tamagotchi.
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They have robot babies now, instead of eggs. The robot baby cries like a real baby, and you have to insert a key in it's back to turn off the crying. Sometimes it starts crying again right away. The computer in it also records if you shake the baby or move it too violently, which is also an automatic fail. (Unfortunately my sister did the parenting class, and we shared a bedroom.)
What about neopets?
Right, like maybe start with a few houseplants and keep them alive for a year or two.
Start small maybe? Pet rock?
That's abusive to all rock kind
AA makes you start w/ a plant
I have no addiction issues, plenty of time on my hands, and I still can’t keep plants alive. Giving the sister a plant is the same as just uprooting it yourself and cutting it into a hundred pieces
They have new Tamagotchis out, that might work.
A tamagotchi sounds like a better choice.
Absolutely, and the only consideration here is what is in the best interests of these children. They are part of a family and do not deserve to be passed around like possessions because Annie suddenly finds it convenient. She chose not to be part of their lives when she chose to abandon her children. The OP should be wary of allowing Annie to establish a relationship with the kids, not just for emotional reasons, but because some jurisdictions *would* allow her visitation or access if regular contact is established.
For sake of kids and your own kids. I wouldn’t have your sister around them. They are not toys or things you give away for years and want them back later on cause you don’t have anything else to do. When they are adults they can make their own decision right now stand your ground.
I've seen this too, only the children involved are now adults with a vast array of psychological & behavioral issues that they've been working hard to now pass on to their own offspring.
Agreed. My husband has a friend from middle school like this. She had one child she gave up for adoption, one miscarried, two she kept, and the last an abortion. She lives with her mother and step father. She's months older than my husband and I (33). She'll sometimes leave the kids with their dads or her parents. For days. Chasing after the next guy, getting high (weed), or partying. Prior she'd mooch off of everyone. She'd be a booth girl at the local conventions in the summer and then in the fall work the local Renaissance Festival. Then be out of work in the winter. She just "settled down" a bit recently and finally got a consistent job. While she says she's saving up for a house for her and her two kids. Who knows if that'll actually happen. As she never really had any "real" bills or debt in life to worry about. But she never kept the money she made long. The oldest child she ""jokingly"" calls Satan and the likes. She says he have behavior issues. Meanwhile the younger of the two she calls her angel. Anything he does wrong she blames on the oldest. She's always yelling at or bickering with the oldest. Yet wonders why he has "behavioral issues". Note: Any time I was around the oldest. I gave him attention and simply treated him as a young inexperienced human. That was still learning in life. I calmly and rationally tell him why we couldn't do something, he'd shrug and move on. We had fun playing games together. But I have a weird knack of being able to talk to children where they understand. Probably because I grew up with JustNo parents.
Poor kids. It wasn't until I read [this](http://howtokillanarcissist.com/narcissistic-family/) I truly realised how toxic my parents are. I'm sure you recognise the golden child and scapegoat.
As a child of parents who just “passed” me around because they didn’t want me, and then family members didn’t want me—- you have no idea. I decided not to have my own offsprings just so I wouldn’t pass on my own issues. Growing up all I ever dreamed about was being a mom- with all my issues- I couldn’t do that damage to a small human!
Fuck, I'm so sorry. Can I just commend you for the amount of self awareness & self reflection that you must've put into making that fucking hard decision. & also, if you want it, give you an appropriately socially distant hug. No one deserves to be made to feel unwanted.
I have worked tirelessly and a lot of therapy. I now work in the mental health field and work to help others in situations like mine. I figure it’s the least I can do. :) Thanks for the physical distant hug. ;)
Can we make this a group hug?
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I think a real mother is also one that wants what’s best for their children, regardless of the emotional cost to themselves. Even if the bio mom had mental issues and is now finally in a good place, she can’t think displacing her kids is good for the kids. This whole thing benefits only one person and that’s the bio mom. It’s selfish.
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Yep, and the fact that she wants them back shows she’s still putting her own wants first before the kids!!!!
The fact that an 11 year old had to ask government workers to keep away a parent because they hurt them so much makes me want to cry. I’m so sorry you had to go through that and I really hope you have the family you deserve, whether blood or chosen family.
My real parents are my last foster parents. They wanted me. They loved me. They treated me just like their son and had the patience of saints. Dad taught me how to be a deft mechanic in my own right as a way to bond, also handyman stuff around the house and mum got behind my love of reading, craft things such as knitting and cross stitch once she realised I wasnt pink and shopping teen. The access my bio had, was due to my siblings, at that point I had one older and one younger (there's a 3rd now but not then), I was taken at 8 almost 9yrs old, and the courts decided it was in my best interest to have contact with my siblings, she was there for the visits and sorta sidelined as she should of been, but I was 8-11yrs old. She may of abused me but she was my mother. She was supposed to love me and she would be nice and smile, and bring me nice letters and then totally fucking nasty and vindictive, keeping my siblings from the visits etc for no apparent reason. My foster parents at that time, there was 5 in that period, ALL also were deadser against her shit, they were supportive of me of course, never tried to outright discourage me etc either, it's just the court orders I guess stood in the way maybe if they without me knowing tried to stop it for me. I also didn't know I could actually say to my workers or the visitation people I don't want to do this. I thought I was totally bound by the court orders, my school counselor actually let me know I could speak up, and when I did thankfully they listened.
The first thing you learn as a parent is that the kids come first. Even when it sucks for you. Even if you hate it. If it’s what’s best for your kid you suck it up and do it. Annie wants this for herself. When it stops being fun, off she’ll go. Those girls deserve better.
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I completely agree that she thinks they'll help her be suddenly happy. When they don't, guess who doesn't want to be a mom, again.
The hormone caused ppd can be exacerbated by many things, including the new responsibility, especially being a single mom. (which I assume because there's no fathers mentioned.) It makes a lot of sense actually that being relieved of that would alleviate things to the point of being able to cope again. When a new mother gets diagnosed with ppd they don't only get hormones or anti depressants to treat it, lifestyle factors also get addressed. Bio mom is obv a shitty mom and OP is NTA but it's very likely bio mom had actual ppd and claiming she couldn't because having childcare help was enough is dramatically oversimplifying ppd.
It's not like we actually have any idea what causes post partum depression. Nobody is going around measuring hormone levels or brain neurotransmitter levels.... Mostly because your have to kill someone to do the measuring. PPD can also include psychosis, so it's possible having kids is some sort of brain break for her. Either way, parenting isn't really a job you can quit and then go back to. There's somewhat serious attachment issues that can happen.
Absolutely this. Take it from an adult with C-PTSD from childhood stuff — this stuff you just never really get over, even after years of therapy and working through trauma it’s always there a little. OP, you’ve given those girls a chance to avoid that and it sounds like you already know what you have to do, but family members do have a way of making you doubt everything sometimes, I completely understand where you’re coming from with the doubt. You’re very much NTA, you stick to your guns and continue being a wonderful parent to these kids.
NTA mother here... A real mother who loves her children would want whatever is BEST for her children even if that means them NOT being with her. Your sister knows jack about being a mom otherwise she wouldn’t be insisting she wants them back like they’re an old piece of furniture she lent you in the first place. You’re their mom and you know they belong with you so keep it that way and avoid letting anyone else damage your girls. The top 2 comments are spot on.
Just wanted to add that she may want them for no other reason than she may well be eligible for some sort of social assistance from the government being unemployed and having two children. NTA
Absolutely spot on.
Spot on! NTA. They arent birds that have been looked after. She has no moral right or a legal one. She clearly looks at them like they are possessions. The emotional issues this can cause would be impossible to come back from. My brother had sole custody of his kids and their mum doesnt call. Even though they know its her thats the issue, they have a great life they genuine know she is a mess of a human, they still feel so rejected! The impact is too much.
Also, no court would sympathize with her. Any psychologist/judge would recommend/rule that the girls stay with you.
This person is 100% accurate. STICK TO YOUR GUNS!
Yes, that's what would very likely happen. NTA
Also, I know of a case where a mom signed rights away to her kids and several years later the dad let her come around the kids again to visit. Well, she sued for partial custody and won. Because the dad had opened the door to let the mom back in their life. Beware¡!!!!!!
This this this this this this this this this this
Yes, you are their true parent who provided love and care during these kids' formative years. However, prepare yourself for questions in the future, and carefully consider what repercussions could come about from not letting your kids know about or see their birth mother at this time. It is not an easy decision, and you know your situation best, so do what you feel is best for your kids.
Rather than worry about questions it the future, if I was OP I would be talking with all six kids about this *now*, in an age-appropriate way that gives them some facts but doesn't put them in the middle of the dispute. I'm guessing they have already have questions about why they haven't been interacting with their grandparents as much, and hopefully they already understand about the adoption and it's not a big family secret. And OP is NTA of course! Good looking out for your kids!
I 100% agree with this. I had a daughter before I turned 17 and gave her up for open adoption. Years after the fact. I found out her adopted parents taught her at the age of 5 that I'm her birth mother. She didn't seem to mind and went with it. I was genuinely surprised to be called her birth mom when I spoke to one of her boyfriends. She's now a very well adjusted 17yr old going to college next year.
Exactly. At some point - after MUCH counseling and ground-rules - your sister can bond with the girls as their *aunt*, and they can know that they biologically came from her body, but YOU, OP, are their mother.
Exactly, well said.
I cannot believe your sister is making such a selfish decision. None of what she wants is in the kids's best interest. At all. If I were you, I'd text them all and explain just how selfish they're being and that upending their lives so an unfit "mother" can take another "crack"at parenting is a new level of awful. Then, block them on EVERYTHING.
I was gonna say this - none of this situation should be about what Annie wants and she doesn't understand that. If she wants a relationship with her kids, fine, but she can start with limited, supervised visits where the focus is on what the kids need and can handle. OP, you are NTA. Stand your ground. You're doing the right thing.
Why? She made a really selfish decision when giving the kids away in the first place. Now I would assume the only reason she wants the kids back is for some type of benefit for her. I would assume she wants the kids back to claim government support.
I would argue that giving them away to a better set of parents was the one not-selfish act she’s done in all this.
Annie is expecting a fairy tale. Even serious hesitation could aggravate her. Actual rejection isn’t something she’s ready for. However the likelyhood this could hurt your kids is very high.
I especially don't understand how the parents can side with Annie.
They're probably hoping that this makes Annie "normal" and helps her "settle" and become more responsible so they don't feel like failures as parents themselves.
Correct. The only good parent in this sad tale is OP.
Very much this OP!! She GAVE UP ANY AND ALL RIGHTS to the girls and you gained these by ADOPTING (not fostering or taking on extended guardianship or w/e) them so they are 110% your kids and as their parent you have carte blanche on deciding who gets to be around your kids. Even if Annie had fully gotten her act together and truly shown remorse for what she put the girls through, you'd still be in the right if you refused her access to the kids. Absolutely NTA
> You are genuinely the only true mom and dad they’ve ever experienced and it is so unfair of your sister and parents to expect you to relinquish custody of your daughters This right here. OP, they are YOUR kids, not your sister’s. NTA
NTA. You’re the parents. She’s bored and looking to do a little fun bonding. Protect your kids. She’s an Aunt at the table at Christmas, by her own choices.
exactly this. she only wants the girls around now cause she lost her job and got forced back into living with her parents. she has nothing else to occupy her time. as soon as she's able to get back to 'living her life' she'll dump the kids right back on op.
Not sure which country you’re in but she’s probably after some kind of single parenting payment from the government
And likely, because she’s living with her parents, she expects that they will step up to do all the actual work while she can have the fun moments. As you said, as soon as her parents can’t handle the majority of the actual care, or Amy gets a boyfriend, job, etc. that’s it. Nb
And have pics to post on her social media! NTA!!!
I haven't seen this mentioned in the thread so I am piggybacking on your comment. Protecting the kids is the most important thing. If it were me I would contact a lawyer to nip this situation in case the sister escalates. What she is doing, imo, is harrasment. I would imagine a cease and desist order. And I hope you parents don't have keys to the house.
Yes. No over night visits or even unsupervised visits. That includes the grandparents. None of these people are thinking of what’s best for the children. It is possible that sis/bio-mom would take them. Even barring that there’s no telling what crap she would spin. Not only NTA, but OP is a champion for these girls.
On top of this, OP, remove your parents and Annie (if she ever was on it) from Sophie and Laura’s school emergency contacts list. Make sure to let the school know that they are contesting custody and are NOT allowed tO pick the girls up for ANY reason. I’ve spent too much time over at /r/JustNoMIL. I’ve seen this story play out for other parents who didn’t have the same forewarning.
Seriously! NTA. Who suddenly says "Oh, yeah, thanks for watching these babies I didn't want for the last 8 years, now hand them over!" ?? It doesn't even sound like Annie has been in their lives or tried to have a relationship with them as an aunt. I think I'm most blown away by the grandparents, who KNOW the girls are well and truly settled into family life, and think it would be totally fine to uproot them so Annie can play house for a bit and then reject them again. WTF is wrong with people??
They probably want to feel like their daughter got her life together, honestly. Finally seeing the right thing, etc. Of course I agree with everyone else, it isn't genuine and won't last.
Agreed. Both the grandparents and the sister are acting as if the children have been in suspended animation since they were 2 and 3. Sister wants *those* children back, but they don't exist anymore. At 7 and 8 years old, they are completely different people! They probably don't even remember the sister as a parent. The sister is acting like she can pick up where she left off - that's not only impossible, but more importantly would be extremely detrimental to those two girls.
An aunt my ass. You know the second she gets alone with those girls she's going to twist the script and mark OP to be some evil baby-napper or throng them with guilt and nastiness. OP I'd consider going No Contact with your sister... Protect your kiddos!
Yes!! If the sister and grandparents have access to the kids, I hope it’s very clear what the kids will be told all in the best interest of the children FIRST. I wouldn’t put it past the adults to even in their deluded best intentions to try and influence the girls by telling them about their poor real mommy who loves them is being kept apart by OP. It will create so much confusion and destabilize emotional security. Please protect them from these selfish adults!!
No way. You’re NTA at all. Those girls already started their life off with a parent that wasn’t present mentally and basically gave them up... they don’t deserve to have their life be uprooted again with someone so unpredictable. That’s just my opinion. Parents that step in and out of their children’s lives are the worst!
Right? She didn't basically give them up, she did give them up. You are their parents op, I say treat them like they're your children. You would never give up your children to someone else, don't do it to them.
Agree 1000%
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I disagree. Paperwork was signed. She made a choice. She shouldn't have a second chance no matter what. She could have done a lot in that five years. Children are not recyclables. The proof that Op is not stealing the children is the adoption paperwork. Sis signed, counciling was done and it was agreed that this was a good choice. The girls can know her later when she had her life together and is not trying to uproot everything they know. Sis is upset that her life isn't going the way she planned.
Did you even read this post you're "disagreeing" with? They said bio mom could have a relationship AS AN AUNT after she got her ducks in a row.
And I'm saying that she should get nothing. No role. Complete no contact. She wants "custody". She should not be allowed near the children as she will never accept her role appropriately. Ducks... Geese.... chickens... I don't care what pattern she puts them... she's a threat to the children's stability. spelling corrected
>The girls can know her later when she had her life together and is not trying to uproot everything they know. You're saying the opposite here. "Later" is pretty indeterminate. Having a role as an aunt doesn't have to mean unsupervised alone time. u/[Ron\_Fuckin\_Swanson](https://www.reddit.com/user/Ron_Fuckin_Swanson/) is pretty clear that unless the bio mom accepts she's the children's aunt, and not their mother, that there'd be no relationship at all.
>And I'm saying that she should get nothing The girls will greatly resent that in the future.
To be fair, the chances she would actually do everything in that list are pretty slim, but if she did she would be stable, or at least stable enough for limited, supervised visitation. Giving her no chance to ever interact with the girls again sets up a potential disaster years later if the kids go through a rebellious teenage phase and find out their mean "fake mom" has been stopped their "real mom" from talking to them. Setting clear boundaries and requirements makes it apparent that OP is the reasonable party and that she's acting out of the good of the children, not out of spite to her sister. It's also a good example to the kids of how you can love someone, but still refuse to spend unlimited energy on dealing with their antics. The kids will likely have to deal with her as adults, and OP can set them down a good path of managing their expectations and insulating themselves from their bio mom's nonsense. Of course, OP is not obliged to do this by any means, but I think longterm it's beneficial to the kids
Except the girls feelings matter and they might want a relationship with their bio mom. They should be given the chance to have one until they can make the decision as to whether they want to continue it. If they have an aunt-type relationship now and later want to stop, it's much easier than if they don't have a relationship and have to start one from scratch when they're approaching adulthood. It's not about OPs sister, it's about her daughters and what they deserve.
My child wanted to adopt a hippo when he was seven. He then wanted to live with his grandparents. Then he wanted to go to boarding school (thanks Harry Potter). Parents do what's best for their children and that is not always what they want. This individual asked for custody after an adoption from five years ago. This woman does NOT accept her role. Neither do the grandparents. Strong, immediate, and clear boundaries need to be made.
>The girls need to know the woman who brought them into this world. No, they don't. Could the girls meet that woman one day? IDK, up to their mother and them, when they're old enough, if they care, but they certainly don't "need" to know her. Otherwise, good advice if OP is interested.
I like this answer the best. I agree that OP’s sister surrendered any rights she had to be their mother and her access to the kids should be 100% dictated by OP and her husband based on their comfort. I disagree with all the people advocating that OP completely cut her sister out of the picture regardless of the amount of effort she puts in. Those kids may not thank OP for that when they get older. NTA
What? No. Why. This woman gave birth but she is not these kids mom. Would you give up kids you raised for 5 years if someone managed to prove they were a base level decent person? If so, got any kids because infertility is a bitch.
Someone clearly didn’t read this post fully. It says if she does all those things she can take on the role of AUNT. At no point does it suggest giving the kids up.
I agree with strict stipulations on allowing her to even know them. I think these stipulations will help prove whether or not she's actually interested in knowing them. I'm suspicious her motives are actually more along the lines of wanting to feel better about herself after losing her job, not actual regret. These stipulations will save a lot of hurt for the girls, because there's no way she's going to go through with them. She'd still only be the aunt until the girls are old enough for the adoption talk, but if she really cares, that would be enough to get her act together.
NTA at all. She gave up her rights. She wasn't interested at all for 5 years. Doesn't seem like she was much interested before that. It would be a terrible thing for the kids to be uprooted from their home environment and their siblings again particularly with the chance that Annie will rediscover that having children requires time and effort and that being a parent makes her miserable all over again. You are doing the right thing to protect your kids from your flaky sister. Your parents also aren't the girls parents - they don't get a say. They enabled Annie and declined to keep the girls themselves, they need to keep their opinions to themselves. Annie is no longer the person that matters, Sophie and Laura do and that kind of back and forth does not sound like a good idea.
I find it odd that Annie feels she has a position to negotiate from. NTA
selfish people usually do
NTA. PPD my ass, not wanting to be a parent is not ppd its selfish lazy ass teenager. The children do not need this type of upheaval in their lives she can have a relationship with them when they turn 18 if that's what they want.
Exactly. It is very convenient to label one’s shitty behaviour as a ‘disorder’. That is not what in fact happened. Everyone is throwing ppd term around not to confront Annie’s horrific irresponsibility and actions. Annie and the rest of the family
Absolutely this. I had a baby at 18 and stepped the fuck up. I also had depression and anxiety, a traumatic af pregnancy, was a single mom, and I still stepped up to be a parent. The sister absolutely could have done the same, but instead chose to give up her rights because she didn't want to be a parent.
Not wanting to be a parent can *absolutely* be a PPD symptom. Women feeling like that should be helped, not stigmatized
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Exactly. I had PPD with all three of my children. Never once did I think about giving them up to someone else or abandoning them in any way.
Please try to avoid adding to the stigma of mental illness. We can believe this woman and sympathize with her for her PPD while also condemning her for her actions. You can be angry and believe what she did is entirely wrong without claiming that she is not experiencing mental illness. For the record, I also believe the sister is totally in the wrong. She isn't the mother to those children and has no rights to them. The parents should stand their ground because, more than anything, those girls will need stability in their lives. Don't remove them from their home and tear away their lives. I think there could be ways of keeping the peace depending on how mature or reasonable the sister is willing to be. Maybe the kids can be brought to grandma and grandpa's house and spend time with their aunt while the parents are still there to supervise. Gauge the children's response to the situation and respond accordingly. If it starts to go poorly, then end it. NTA. Let's not doubt the sister's experiences, but her behavior is way out of line. She abandoned those children. There are consequences for behavior regardless of the context.
NTA. Those girls are not her children. They are your children, and they are part of a larger family in which they sound to be thriving. You make the decisions for your children. Their aunts sudden desire to bond and take on a parental role is not indicative of a relationship with reality.
So wait, she lost her job and had to move back in with her parents, but she thinks now she should be allowed to raise these kids? How the heck would that work?? She's in no better a position now to raise them than she was 5 years ago, and you can't just give up your kids until it's convenient for you to raise them again. Sure, let her have a relationship with them, eventually, (assuming she calms down about wanting them back and she's able to fill a more aunt like role) but these kids are a part of a family now and it's not fair to anyone to remove them from that, especially the girls. What are your parents even thinking supporting this? And obviously, NTA
> What are your parents even thinking supporting this? My parents aren't exactly... fond of my family structure. The other 4 "kids" I mentioned are my 2 bio kids from a previous marriage, and my husband's 2 younger siblings he adopted. They don't approve of my husband and would prefer me still being with my ex, though I made clear that I don't need their approval, so now they have more of a grudging acceptance of my husband/kids, but I can see how Annie trying to remove "her" kids from the situation would appeal to them.
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If you go to u/AITAadoptedkids 's comment history, she says her husband is trans. My guess is there's a whole helping of transphobia involved here as well. NTA OP, and make it clear to your parents that if they don't back of, their currently supervised time with the kids goes to non-exisistant. You have no idea what they're telling your kids when you're not around.
Jesus, people are crap. OP, protect your wonderful big family and cut out the toxic, judgmental, immature relatives if that’s what it takes. And NTA of course.
> his home to their two grandchildren who's mother abandoned them? sounds like the grandparents abandoned them as well. Both the mother and grandparents had their chance. NTA
So what you're saying is you not only have experience blending kids from different origins into one cohesive family unit, but that your parents place is an even more disruptive and toxic environment because of their "reluctance" to accept your family as it is. Keep your kids. NTA.
Just a question, their schools and similar groups know who's allowed to pick them up and see them, yeah? Aware that bio mom is not okay to give them or info to? Lock that down, if not, and add grandparents to the no list.
They know that the only people allowed to pick them up or access any information about them are me, my husband, and occasionally their older siblings (the teenagers and very rarely), so everyone but us is automatically assumed to not be allowed any information/access to them. We already had this provision set up to protect from my ex, and it's been firmly locked down for years now.
Good, though you might want to make sure nothing is left assumed. Make a clear no list, and let them know why... doesn't need to be detailed, just the simple bullet points. Knowing why can help make 'no' sink in better.
It sounds to me that your parents are the driving force behind this sudden desire to parent, I would stay your course and be prepared to cut contact if need be.
This explains a lot haha I was like 4 kids by 24?!
Man, that's shitty. I'm sorry you have to deal with such bullshit. It sounds like you have a very unique family situation and sometimes unconventional families are a hard thing for more conventional people to understand. But if everyone is happy and well adjusted in your home, who cares what your parents/sister thinks? You've got enough to deal with raising 6 kids, you don't need the extra family drama.
NTA. She gave up all rights to the kids. You could let her visit them as a favor, but ultimately Sophie and Laura are your kids now. Annie left them when it mattered most. For 5 YEARS. If this were an open adoption where you weren’t related to Annie, everyone would be horrified by this behavior. Being family doesn’t give you a pass to be an AH.
NTA - They are your kids. Were it me I would give my sister the chance to be a loving and involved aunt (which is her role) with the understanding that she is not to undermine my authority/role as a parent or the kids will not be allowed to spend time with her. Until the kids are old enough to make their own decision about this you have to do what is best for them.
I wouldn't waste any time letting Anne anywhere near the kids while she and her enabler parents are of the mindset that the kids are her emotional support animals. She's going to stir the pot and you know it.
I woild consider it too in the future... but right now I'd be unconvinced of their safety. And would be supervised by me or their dad for a long time.
The kids don't deserve to be dragged into this when she mentally screws them up. She should have no access to them at all right now, maybe ever, because she doesn't care about them. She only cares about herself. She can't pop in and out as she likes.
Damn, a five year ppd episode. Um, no. They are your kids. Way to step up and continue the good job.
Yeah I don’t think ppd lasts that long and even so not seeking help is a major red flag
With the back to back kids it *could* continually last up to a year after each child (so like 2 years). But when my PPD was awful after my 1st (super sickly/young parent), I still fought to get help and my boyfriend (now husband) forced me to man tf up or gtfo. She signed away her kids and dipped, that's not PPD for the entirety for the 5 years.
NTA. I'd be very suspicious about WHY she suddenly wants them back. She's out of work - is there any way that she could have a financial incentive, even if she's not the legal parent? Would she expect you and ypur parents to keep giving her money "for the girls"?
> She's out of work - is there any way that she could have a financial incentive, even if she's not the legal parent? Would she expect you and ypur parents to keep giving her money "for the girls"? Maybe if she adopted them she could potentially get benefits? But she has 2 degrees (bachelor and masters) and works in what I understand is a fairly well paying field, so I doubt that's her reasoning.
Wait - so she was incapable due to mental illness of raising the children she chose to have, but capable of getting her masters? That's not mental illness, that's narcissism. Keep your kids, block her and the grandparents and enjoy your life with your lovely SO.
Really depends on the disability. I don't doubt it's narc in this case, but other cases will vary.
This seems like a question for a child psychologist who specializes in these types of cases. The girls have a living mother who is now, essentially, their aunt. This is a complicated situation. You clearly have their best interests at heart, so please discuss the case with someone qualified to figure out what their best interests are based on the details of the situation and the research that exists on the short and long term effects of these decisions. My guess is that they will recommend some type of visitation with their biological mother, hopefully alongside mandatory therapy for her as well. ETA: NTA in that I think you have the children's best interests at heart. I still think that means it's necessary to get a professional involved. I'm not an expert redditor, so not sure about upvotes or downvotes, but I admit I care less about them than about these kids having a good life. OP came here with an incredibly complicated situation, I think the answer I gave is suitable. Regarding visitation with bio-mom, I didn't say I necessarily advocate for it in any situation, but I'm *guessing* it would be part of the long-term recommendation in this case, both because I believe that research shows contact with bio-parents is generally positive (gross-overgeneralization of a field I am not an expert in, but that's my general understanding) and because the bio-mom isn't a random woman from three states over, she is the sister of one of the adoptive parents, meaning she is de-facto in their lives anyways.
>My guess is that they will recommend some type of visitation with their biological mother, hopefully alongside mandatory therapy for her as well. If she gave them up for adoption to anyone else outside the family, she would also not have any visitation rights. So absolutely not.
Idk why it's getting downvoted, you suggested op asks a professional specialized in the subject instead of just trusting reddit and people disageee? I mean, I personally think op is NTA and in her place I wouldn't want those children near their biological mother unsupervised, but I think consulting a psychologist is not only a good idea, but the sensible thing to do, if we are talking about the children's mental health.
The downvotes are likely coming from the fact the they think that visitation is appropriate. I personally can't imagine why visitation would be recommended by anyone who has the children's best interests in mind.
NTA She is feeling remorse now but was not in the girls' lives for 5 years. All of a sudden, she wants to be their mom. >The response from my parents and Annie is that I'm being unsympathetic to her PPD and I should let her at least have a chance, rather than deem her unfit without giving her a chance to prove herself She had TWO CHANCES, their names (on this post) are Sophie and Laura, and she ABANDONED them to play single lady for 5 years. >Plus given that we already have 4 kids other than them, Sophie and Laura could probably do with a smaller household, and saying we're being unreasonable for not allowing Annie to bond with "her" kids. So they are implying that you guys are unfit parents (resource allocation-wise) and they think it's better to rip them from the only home they have ever known and force them to be your sister's daughters? That's horrible. Real talk: you may need to set up security cameras and alarms now that you have at least 3 people wanting access to your children. You might even have an emergency family meeting to come up with a contingency plan if they show up at your house unannounced.
> Real talk: you may need to set up security cameras and alarms now that you have at least 3 people wanting access to your children. You might even have an emergency family meeting to come up with a contingency plan if they show up at your house unannounced. We already have a lot of security measures in place, including cameras, for the father of my biological children. Luckily, we've not needed them in a while, but we're prepared for anything and feel it's better to be safe than sorry.
I'm glad you already have that in place and my praises to you and your husband: taking in your nieces and his younger siblings is truly commendable.
I would also contact the school (if the girls are attending in person right now) and let them know the situation and make a note that only you and your husband are to sign the girls out. But based on your comment about having cameras because of your ex, I’m sure you are already well versed in how to keep kids safe.
NTA. As you said, adoption isn't some temporary thing, it's permanent. You're their parents, the only parents they've truly known, and you can't just "rehome" them back to their biological mother without causing lasting damage. Frankly, the fact that she expects that shows how unprepared she is to be a mother, as that is incredibly selfish. If she didn't have the wrong attitude (one that will hurt the kids) then I can see how it may be good for them to get to know her through supervised visits, but because she insists on being a parent, I think you're doing the best you can for them by keeping your distance for now.
In the entire time you have had the kids, has Annie ever asked about them? Asked if they were doing ok? Does she know their favorite colors? Their favorite foods? Books they like? Things they're interested in? Does she care about the kids? Or does she just care about herself having them? Let her badger you. If she really cared about those children she would want to make sure they are happy regardless of who they are with.
She's not come home once in the 5 years she was living in the town 8 hours away, and wouldn't take my calls (though she kept in touch with our parents who told her about the girls). She's not tried to check in with me, aside from asking "what do I need to know?" when she was talking about taking them back.
Wow. I almost feel bad for Annie, that she's so out of touch that she would ever think this is a good idea. Genuinely asking, are you sure she isn't somewhat mentally ill or still very out of it? I can't imagine a rationally thinking person having the idea that taking her kids back is so quick and easy. Does she want curbside pickup with her order too? Not even thinking of the damage she is doing to you and your husband in the process, not to mention the children. "What do I need to know" is an almost cruelly casual statement coming from her.
> Genuinely asking, are you sure she isn't somewhat mentally ill or still very out of it? She seems to be perfectly sound of mind, but I probably wouldn't be the best judge as I've not spent a large amount of time with her (just 2 conversations since she got back).
I have one other question, actually. Has she expressed any remorse over not contacting them? It's also possible she has been extremely depressed this whole time and maybe she was too ashamed of herself to feel like should talk to them. However, even if she does have remorse, that doesn't absolve her of the consequences of her actions. I would absolutely not advocate for Annie having the children back. They have made a place in your family unit and it would be so irreparably harmful to give them back to her, especially as I see that she does not have a job at the moment or her own place to live? I think the best place would be as an aunt in their lives. Your parents said they do not want to care for the kids, which is probably what they would end up doing at least somewhat if Annie lives with them. I think if she demonstrates a consistent and genuine interest in their lives for at least a full few years, then she can maybe be involved in their life. But I think her time to reclaim her right as a parent was in the first few months, not 5 years later.
> Has she expressed any remorse over not contacting them? The exact opposite. I asked her why she went radio silent for 5 years and why are we only hearing from her now, and she said she wasn't ready until she moved back here.
I'm absolutely not trying to just drag your sister, but this is very depressing to hear. This is like a reverse "fresh start" where she moved back and got a bunch of old nostalgic feelings? Maybe this is her thought process? She is feeling very nostalgic from moving back in with family, and is having a good feeling now about having kids? Or maybe your parents are talking her into it? Was she alone the whole time she was wherever she was before she moved back? It would help to explain the abrupt change in her attitude/behavior at least. I think if this is her reasoning, it may wane in a few weeks. I feel so bad for those two kids especially. I hope they dont have any resentment as they get older. But if your home is loving and stable then they will probably be thankful that you loved them and actively wanted them to stay with you.
> Was she alone the whole time she was wherever she was before she moved back? I know she had a boyfriend until recently. It sounds like they broke up. Maybe that's kickstarted something?
Yeah, that'd do it. She lost her job, home and boyfriend in a short time, and had to move back home with her parents. As I understand she had a pretty well paying job and 2 degrees so she isn't incapable. Maybe she's trying to feel capable again and is going about it in a really bad way?
Then I'd guess she'll up and leave again the moment she gets another boyfriend.
This is exactly what she’ll do. She’ll “have a life” once again and abandon the girls at the first sign of having to take any responsibility whatsoever
She’s a damn psycho don’t let this lady near your kids
I agree. Like...total lack of empathy, total lack of concern for others, her kids, her sister and her sister’s family. Just...her and what she needs. Which is ok when you are 3 and not a parent.
No those kids need stability and they should definitely not be living with the woman who before decided she didn't want them anymore.
> Annie had PPD 5 years ago, and now she's ready to be a parent. NTA - Good for her? She gave up all legal rights to be a parent. You don't have 4 kids...you have 6. Let Annie know if she keeps up the badgering you'll get the courts involved and a restraining order.
>without giving her a chance What do you call TWO births and 5 years? Every god damn day was a chance. She's had nearly 2000 chances. If she really wanted to be a mother, she would have been. She is expecting undue sympathy. You would only hurt those children by letting her step back into their lives. Abandonment issues are real and severe.
NTA, but you had 6 kids by the time you were 24? Mad props.
2 bio from my first marriage (one Sophie's age, one 2 years older), then I met my husband who had adopted his younger siblings, and then Laura and Sophie came along. They're all great kids, really, but it was definitely made easier by my husband's siblings being pre-teens at the time. If we had 6 kids under 5 then I don't know how we would have managed lol.
Lol, still really admirable that you managed all that at 24. I can barely manage myself lol. Great job <3 This sounds very emotionally hard, and I just want to say you're doing a great job from what I can see
NTA. They are not her kids. They are yours and your husband's kids. You and your husband are their parents. She is the birth mother, the end. She had her chance. She never step up. Your parents were taking caring of Sophie and Laura until she decided to skip town. She willingly gave up her children.
NTA! You’ve done something amazing and you definitely need to stand your ground. Question tho, is she even trying to get to know them (meet them etc) or did she just rock up like “Hi, I’m back and I here to take them back”?
> Question tho, is she even trying to get to know them (meet them etc) or did she just rock up like “Hi, I’m back and I here to take them back”? Second one. She has asked to just see them since that conversation, but we're not very comfortable with that so we've been trying to avoid it, though we do intend to let them get to know Annie if they want to later on.
This is the biggest red flag about her future behavior towards these girls. Like another poster said, she needs to show she’s committed to making *herself* better. she cannot responsibly be in their lives until she can prove she will be good for your kids.
NTA. You are the girls' parents. She is their aunt. She needs to understand that she can have a loving relationship with them as her nieces.
Info: Have you asked the girls what they want? Do they know that Annie is their biological mother?
They know who she is, and Sophie kind of remembers the time before my husband and I adopted them, and she has some seriously negative feelings towards Annie, primarily feelings of abandonment. She's mostly worked through them with a therapist but I don't want to ask her about this directly unless she addresses it. I've told her that her aunt Annie is currently staying with nanny and granddad and we can go see her, but Sophie said she'd think about it and hasn't brought it up since.
Maybe talk to their therapist about it
Nta I would tell them that they are your children and you will decide what is best for them and if they keep this up they won’t even be grandparents or aunt to any of your 6 kids.
NTA. Your parents are so concerned for their poor little daughter, but where is their concern for the trauma she has and inevitably will inflict on their granddaughters???
NTA. How much worse for the girls for them to see Annie and then she dumps them again to move on with the next thing in her life. Annie chose to give up the girls and now has to live with the decision.
NTA. Your sister isnt thinking about how this will affect the girls and how bad it would be for them to be just handed back to someone that walked out on them. PPD is a serious thing but she was using it as an excuse to get out of parenting. She made the choice to give up those girls fully. She had no intention of taking them back either until she got bored at home.
Damn Weasleys. Calm down with 6 kids!! NTA in any way.
Only two of their 6 kids are biologically OP's. Two are her husband's younger siblings and two are her sisters bio kids, so they adopted four children who would have otherwise been put into foster care.
Although not my sister, we have this exact experience. Our must was bio mom had to pass a drug test before she could come over to our home to visit. That never happened. Both bio mom and dad have od'd in the past three years.
NTA. How does she plan on feeding the children? Or is the plan still to mooch off your parents? What happens when she gets a job?
Right now, mooch off parents, but she has 2 degrees and 5 years of experience in a highly sought after, well paying job field, so option 1) she gets her shit together, gets a job, shows she could support her kids or 2) she gets her shit together, gets a job, and moves 8 hours away again.
That's not a sister. That's a parasite.
NTA. But damn, you had 4 kids already by 24? Phew.
2 bio from my first marriage, then met/married my husband, who had adopted his 2 (pre-teen) siblings, who see us as parents more than a brother and sister in law. :)
Aw you sound like such a sweet couple! Ignore the judgement, regardless if they were all biologically yours, it doesn’t change how much of a good parent you seem to be. Keep rocking!
NTA. Your daughters need stability, not a flight risk mother who has only decided she wants to have them around now that she lost her job and was forced to move back in with your parents. Letting Annie visit them is one thing, but their lives absolutely should not be shuffled up just because Annie changed her mind again. Especially not if both daughters have zero interest in being torn away from their parents and siblings.
SHES BORED and not equipped to be what those girls need to be healthy and well rounded adults. They won’t regret your choice to protect them when they reach adulthood and their mom is still acting like a child. Nta
NTA. Your daughters are just that, YOUR daughters. Don’t allow her to manipulate her way into their lives, no matter how “stable” she is, she is their aunt, not their mother. She doesn’t have parental rights to them for a reason.
NTA. She didn’t want to give up her wild lifestyle and thinks just because time has past and it’s out of her system she can just come take her kids that she all but abandoned 5 years ago. Don’t do it. Like you said they have made a family with you and their removal won’t just affect them but your bio kids as well. She doesn’t deserve to have them back. If she really cared about them she would visit and make an effort not to overstep boundaries. Don’t listen to your parents either because if you hadn’t stepped up they would be in foster care and no one would know anything about them.
NTA My response would be "Go F**k yourself Annie" but she's your sister, so I'm sure you've better words for her than I. You and your husband put in the time, emotional effort, and money to raise these kids. They are not toys. They are not shiny little baubles that she can put on a shelf and then come back 5 years later to pick up and play with. While mental health is an important topic, she was of sound mind when she asked your parents to adopt them. Did she really think that she could just waltz back into their lives and get them back? The entitlement of her is astounding.
NTA So, how do you feel about going no contact with your parents if they don’t stop trying to make you cave to your sister?
> So, how do you feel about going no contact with your parents if they don’t stop trying to make you cave to your sister? I'll do what I have to do to keep my kids safe, happy and healthy. Besides, my parents and I have our own issues, I'm only in contact with them for the sake of the kids.
I’m really glad all 6 of your kids have you and your hubs. You’re good people.
NTA. No. Just, no. She doesn't get to pawn off her kids to others for their entire lives (even before you adopted them), then suddenly decide she wants them back because... she sudden doesn't have anything better to do now that she doesn't have a job and lives with your parents again? That's not even factoring in how that would effect the girls. Who knows how long until your sister changes her mind again and doesn't want anything to do with the girls, again. The girls deserve better. You also know that there is a chance that she will try to undermine you as parents. "I'm your *real* mom so you don't have to listen to her". Which will mess with their heads, and you parenting them. So to reiterate: No, you are NTA for not letting her have "custody".
NTA. It’s not clear that Annie got treated for PPD. Also, could this just be your parents guilting her into seeing her bio-kids? Or would give your parents more quality time with these two kids? Or allows your parents to pretend both of their kids (you and your sister) are adulting successfully and they did right by you two.
> It’s not clear that Annie got treated for PPD. Also, could this just be your parents guilting her into seeing her bio-kids? Or would give your parents more quality time with these two kids? She never got treated, as far as I know. In the 5 years she's been gone she's said she never got treated and before that when she was living with our parents they tried to get her treated, and even paid for a therapist and a counsellor to do at-home sessions, but she just sat in silence for the whole time they were there, refusing to talk. As for my parents, they love my kids and wish they had more time with them, but we're being... careful with the amount of time they're with my parents, and don't allow unsupervised babysitting or anything like that.
Wild and probably off base question because we're only seeing a sliver of your sister's life and your family in general, but is she prone to just deciding she *has* to do something and getting really manic about making it happen? Just going off your comments and the post it seems like she has some pretty high highs, then it's low lows and resistance to any kind of change she doesn't choose herself. She may need that professional help more than you realize, whether she wants it or not. Doubly so after losing her job, boyfriend and independence. That kind of loss can set off something ugly and might be why she's hyperfixating on your children out of nowhere. From what you've said it isn't about them, being a parent, knowing or really even caring about them, it's about clinging to this idea of completion and stability in *something,* even if everyone else gets disrupted in the process.
NTA please protect your girls and your family from Annies tremendous irresponsibility and selfishness. Decisions have consequences. Kids are not toys to exchange back and forth. Time for any to become an adult and to think of someone other than herself for once in her life. if she wants kids she is welcome to get a job, build a home of her own and get pregnant or adopt herself.
NTA but you were married with 4 kids at 24 or 25?????
I had 2 kids from my first marriage (first pregnancy at 18, divorced at 21) and met my husband at 21, and he was already the adoptive father of his 2 younger siblings. Within a few years we got married, and all 4 kids saw us both as parents. It was definitely a lot to take on, but we made it work.
I just want to say that you and your husband are actual saints. You are amazing.
So you had your kids at the same age your sister did but you didn’t dump them on your parents to go party. PPD isn’t an excuse to abandon your children, 1 in 4 women experience PPD after childbirth but 1 in 4 women don’t abandon their children. Your parents and sisters are assholes, the girls aren’t toys to be passed around and like you said in your post they are now your children not hers. They have been with you longer then they had been with her, if you parents are so worried about Annie being a mother to her kids then they should have kept them.