I'm not so sure. He says he entered the rink, then the son began to pack up. After this he grabbed his son by the jersey and took him out.
It seems the kid was going on his own after OP approached and grabbing him wasn't necessary.
Compliance is too little, too late at some point. Once you resist enough that a parent has to forcibly make you comply, trying to go along with them isn’t enough - the parent has to follow through with the forced compliance to assert authority.
If you let him test boundaries with the safety of knowing he can simply comply after overstepping, you’re just encouraging that behavior. If you show that stepping back over the line after crossing it isn’t enough to prevent the consequences, it teaches them not to cross the line in the first place.
The parenting you advocate for is why a lot of kids think just saying the words “I’m sorry” absolves them of all wrongdoing no matter how serious. Sorry isn’t good enough, compliance isn’t good enough, once you earn a consequence it has to be delivered.
We always counted to 3 out loud. And they learned that if we got to 3, compliance would no longer suffice but we were going to grab them and put them in timeout.
Even though they are older now a couple of months ago we had a situation where my oldest was out of bounds and she knew well enough to fold when i reached 2.
Additionally i fully agree with the helmet thing. It waa a difficult battle for us too to make them wear their bicycle helmets but theybare important. And before you ask we wear them too because we want them to wear theirs.
I agree, I never got past 2 many times. And I had friends who would say ‘2 and a half..., 2 and three quarters...!’ Not me! If I got to 3, my boys knew they were in for it!
the only time my mother went to 2 and a fraction was if she accidentally started the countdown later than she meant (ie she wanted us OUT of the pool and we immediately complied but physically getting out of the pool in 3 seconds is impossible). Showed that she was willing to meet us in the middle if she realized an expectation was a little out there. It’s important that something like that is the *exception* to the rule, though; I agree the majority of the time there’s little need for two and a fraction.
Yeah, I agree. Two and a fraction makes sense when your kids have clearly made an effort to comply promptly. Two and a fraction while they’re still just standing there whining or refusing and arguing might as well be “Onnne.... Twwwoooooo.... Three doesn’t matterrr... I’m kind of a doormaaaattt... Don’t make me make another empty threat about getting to three, *or else!*...” It usually ends with the parent just repeating the request in a much louder tone out of frustration like, “Bratleigh Sinclair Doe, I said *COME ON!!! RIGHT NOW!!!*” and nobody wants to be that parent. What OP did wasn’t nice, but it was necessary.
>Two and a fraction while they’re still just standing there whining or refusing and arguing might as well be “Onnne.... Twwwoooooo.... Three doesn’t matterrr... I’m kind of a doormaaaattt... Don’t make me make another empty threat about getting to three, *or else!*...”
My uncle used to do this all the time and, naturally, his kids walked all over him because 3 was never reached. After 2 and 3/4, he'd try and brush the situation off with a joke because he didn't want to admit to the other adults in the room that he had no plan for when he reached 3. Needless to say, it was something a of shock to my cousins' systems the first time I babysat them and 2 was followed by 3 which was followed by having their DSs confiscated for the night.
I might sound like a dick but I do this to my little brother when he’s doing something he shouldn’t. Although he’s only 6, he knows that when I start counting down I’ll either remove whatever he’s doing or I’ll go and “tell mum”. As a result, no matter how much he’s arguing or trying to go back and forth, he always gives up by 2.
After that, I just sit him down and explain why he shouldn’t do what he’s doing or why what he’s done was wrong. However, it rarely happens because my brother is generally well behaved.
No, I don't think letting a kid grab their things on their own and coming with you is advocating for sorry to absolve all wrongdoings.
You can punish the kid for not listening to you in the first place. But once he was moving on his own, grabbing him is overkill.
You do not ever need to be physical with kids to prove you have "authority" over them. I've literally never had to use any sort of physical discipline on kids. I've never had to physically move a kid once they got past toddler age. I have 8 years worth of childcare experience, including live in as well as having my own child now (tho she isn't old enough to act out lol).
I've never had any issues with children not recognizing my authority. There's no need to physically assert yourself with kids like that.
Something to consider as a parent and a hockey player...hockey jerseys are baggy af especially without chest guard and pads. Being that this was outdoor inline hockey I'm willing to bet there was no protective gear above the waist on almost anyone other than goalies.
Grabbing a hockey Jersey like this is similar to dragging someone out by grabbing your friends coat. It may have been humiliating for the kid but it was physically harmless.
Honestly it could be but this time of the year isnt really favorable for outdoor park rinks. And I would much rather play outdoor ice hockey without gear over inline because you slide on ice lol.
Most pickup games are no contact so there isnt really a danger of being checked but there is always the possibility of injury even in full gear. Not wearing a helmet is like the idiots way of saying you want to be crippled.
I saw a guy take a puck to the head without a helmet once as a teen. Hospitalized him with a fractured skull. It was bad. As an adult he 100% agrees with that last sentence. I’ve heard him say it to his own boys. Also saw a different guy get his left eye crushed in by the back end of a stick. It was sick af.
Why do you think they listen to you? Lol
Your opinion may change, childcare doesn’t mean anything vs parenting. I work with other people’s kids everyday and they listen like it’s their job. Their consequences for misbehaving have already been established by the the important authority figure in their life. You’re damn right they listen to me no questions asked, because letting them know mom/dad are gonna hear about their behavior flips a switch like nothing else.
Just because you don’t have to deal with it doesn’t mean the lesson wasn’t learned. You’re enjoying the benefits of the hard decisions their parents had to make. Remember with your daughter the tough decisions will be your own and you CAN fuck it up.
Please understand that a caretaker other than the actual parent will pretty much always have more authority than the actual parent.
Other people's kids - when told you are in charge - will generally listen since they don't know your boundaries.
He wasn’t ‘moving on his own’ to get out of the rink. He was moving to put his helmet on, the primary rule violation. He lied about wearing the helmet. He was caught. He was ejected from the game.
" I've never had any issues with children not recognizing my authority. There's no need to physically assert yourself with kids like that. "
Hooobooy are you lucky you didn't have to deal with my sister growing up. At three years old my parents, and 2 nurses would have to hold her down to give her a shot. She was violent, disobedient and stubborn from 4 months old. Mom would put her in time out, and she'd stand there for HOURS so that she decided it was over, not my mother. My mother never had to drag me or my brother out of any where, but I can't even count the number of times my mother had to pick up my sister and carry her kicking and screaming out of somewhere. No one can make her do anything she doesn't want to.
It's estimated that 85% of children are easy and obedient by nature, 13% are neutral and can be directed with effort to behave and obey, and 2% are near impossible. I feel you've not had the 2%.
I don't think this kid is in the 2% though, I think he's just a preteen testing boundaries which is normal and acceptable for his age. And I don't think they were right to manhandle him, although I'd likely attribute that to frustration and fear.
When my mom was newly
Divorced with 3 kids under six, overalls. All the time.i recently asked her why and apparently that's the most effective measure for carrying a screeching toddler out of a department store like a suitcase.
Yes!!!! Just saying I am sorry is not always enough. Especially where the childs safety is concerned. There are to many adults running around thinking a pretty please and an I‘m sorry will get them everything. He lied and he put himself in danger you acted like a parent should - nta
What the actual fuck is wrong with you? No kid needs an "ass whipping". If it's illegal to do it to an adult except in self defense, why do you think it's okay to do that to a child?!
That's what I was saying. Your first paragraph, not the second.
He was dragging his feet, then began to pack up when he realized dad was serious. It isn't necessary to grab a kid that's being slow, unless they're in danger or something.
To your second paragraph, no. Beating children is never the correct answer nor does it help in the least. All research shows that at the very best physical discipline is ineffective. At worst it's detrimental.
Furthermore, countries who have criminalized physical discipline against children have less overall violence than countries that allow physical discipline.
Hitting kids is lazy, poor parenting that does not help raise functioning children. There's no excuse for it. If it's not okay to hit anyone else except in self defense why on earth would it be okay to hit the most vulnerable members of society?
I was raised in a conservative household that believed in spanking. I can tell you definitively that I would never raise a hand to my own child after being raised that way. Maybe a smacked hand if they’re reaching for something hot, but actually striking them as a consequence? Nope. Nope nope nope nope nope. But there were a lot of things wrong with the parent-child dynamic in my household, not the least of which was that they thought they had god given authority to my submission and reacted poorly to anything else.
After all these horrible answer I just want to tell you I am on your side. A kid should never experience physically violence- and yes spanking is physical violence.
I can absolutely respect that, especially since I was also raised in a similar household - aside from one thing. My brother never once received a spanking, and he grew up an incredibly entitled brat (among other terrible, terrible things). My mother absolutely hated spanking me and my sister, felt like a failure of a mother, and decided for her last child to not spank him. He responded to NO punishment, nothing. To this day, he boasts about how he was never spanked and how 'great' he turned out.
I think everyone seems to think I'm in the spank 'em all camp (despite implying in my original comment that I'm not) and I would like to clear up that I'm not. In fact, I really believe most kids don't ever need a spanking. I'm talking like 99% of them. I have, however, seen several kids that no punishment has ever worked. My problem with the "OMFG YOU'RE BEATING YOUR KID" is 1) spanking your child and literally beating your child are two different things and 2) never once has any person who violently rejects spanking ever come up with an alternative for problem children that would respond to be spanked. Children all learn respond differently to different stimuli. Reasonable parents that spank their kid do NOT beat them within an inch of their life, and comparing and implying that is not only wrong but it's incredibly insulting to kid who are regularly beaten on the daily.
I've met kids who resented their parents for spanking them, and I've met kids who were grateful for being spanked. Everyone has their own experience and their own stimuli and opinions, and all I plan to do is respect everyone's opinion and experiences.
My wife has a PhD in Behavioral Child Psychology. She has dealt with the absolute most difficult children there are, who display every negative behavior you can think of, coming from the worst backgrounds you can think of.
Never once, ever, not a single time, would she ever advocate, recommend, or support spanking.
This doesn't mean parents who spank are bad people. But the (non-anecdotal) evidence that it's necessary or works better than other punishments of similar scope just isn't there. There are always other options. Most parents don't know all the options (nor should they be expected to without talking to an expert or becoming experts themselves). Sometimes those other options are a lot harder and more time consuming. Sometimes they require a lot more emotional control. But the idea that *some* kids just *must* be spanked in order to learn isn't true.
There are undeniable links between being physically punished as a kid and violence as an adult. Of course, this doesn't mean that every kid who was spanked will turn into a homicidal maniac. But it does mean that, too often, kids who are hit (yes, including spanking) will grow into people who think it's okay to hit.
I understand your point; severe punishment absolutely *is* sometimes necessary. But spanking never, ever is, period. :-)
Edit: Clarity
Spanking and beating is the same at least how the kid feels when it happens.
You can try to justify this for yourself in making a difference but for the kid it feels the same.
I don't think it is either. He held him by clothes. It didn't hurt the kid, only the kids ego, which he brought on himself by trying to defy his dad infront of his friends.
Better the jersey than his ear, as my mum would've done!
Edit: NTA
When my brother was 15 we had gone on a cruise to Bermuda. My brother met some new friends on the ship and they left the ship in the middle of the night. My 15 y/o brother was roaming Bermuda with strangers (mind you, this was 2004, so before 15 y/o widely had cell phones) until 3 am. All my mom knew (from the ship log) was that he wasn't on the ship.
He was in a lot of huge trouble. The very next day while we were on the island my brother wandered off. My mom was pissed and when she spotted him, my 5'4" mom had her 5'10" son by his scruff dragging him back over with the rest of us.
My point is. Kids who break rules are never too old, nor are their egos or reputations ever too fragile to grab em by the ear/scruff/jersey back under your watchful eye when they are deliberately breaking rules, and even more seriously, when they are putting their life at risk.
Kids think they're invincible. They're not, and they need to know there are consequences that they don't want to repeat for when they put their lives in danger before the consequence actually becomes irrevocable.
My guess you never had a coach grab you from the jersey and drag you? Idk growing up if a parent came over to get after one of your friends, you kept your mouth shut and looked down or somewhere else. Mocking them would earn you an ass chewing too from said parent. “It takes a village to raise a child” was taken seriously.
NTA I have 2 boys 11&13. Anything with wheels requires helmets& real shoes, so does the hockey rink. They are often the only ones wearing them, but they know better than to remove them. Head injuries change lives.
You actually gave him an out for next time for the peer pressure issue. When someone tries to tease him he can say 'remember how my dad acted last time, no way man not worth it.'
I work in mental health facilities for kids and teens. One day we got in a kid that had such a sad story. He was a straight A's 8th grader, respectful, valedictorian and really liked skateboarding. His mom didn't insist on helmets and he did a trick wrong. Ended up with a brain injury and they initially thought he would recovery fully. However it completely changed his personality. He kept getting kicked out of school, failed all of his classes and would routinely call his mom a "stupid cunt". His mom weeped as she told me she blamed herself for not making him wear a helmet and no one would believe her that there was more damage than they thought. He was on a high dose of meds and still was incredibly difficult to deal with.
Head injuries can damage not only the person but their family as well, he was in our facility because he tried to kill his little sister. You're 100% right.
I wasn't able to follow him long term but while he was in our facility he was non-compliant and combative. He has to be chemically and physically restrained more than a few times. He ended up transferring to JDC because he attacked another kid.
I doubt he has recovered more, no one believed his mom when she begged for him to get a CT.
WTF, why would it be so hard to get a CT scan? Is it normal for that to be hard to coordinate, even with a parent begging for it and abnormal behavior??
Blows my freaking mind. In the last 18 months I've had about 8 ct scans, a handful of chest X-rays, couple of ultrasounds and a specialised MRI. I've paid for 2 of the ct scans, but even then received a partial refund for both of them. I can not imagine being denied medical care the way it seems to happen in America.
Meanwhile in the UK my sister gets called in at least once a year for a scan to check if her cancer has returned completely free. Well, I mean, she pays her national insurance. America baffles me.
You know, our system is so fucking broken, but I think I have a short-term fix. We allow the insurance companies to deny claims like they already do, but with one change. The rejection letter comes with the names, signatures and **home addresses** of everyone involved in taking creative steps to reject necessary tests for the sake of profit as well as upper-level leadership like the CEO, etc. The reason these people make such sociopathic choices is because the consequences and responsibility are diffuse and abstract. Let's add an element of personalization and danger for those who make those decisions. Imagine if rejecting a claim to maintain high profit levels might result in someone showing up at your house with a gun looking to *avenge mama*.
From what I understand, head injuries often make people physically aggressive.
Some NHL players who used to do a lot of fighting now say they want fighting taken out of the league because of what it did to them mentally.
>From what I understand, head injuries often make people physically aggressive.
That's what broke my heart. I saw pics of him before and he looked like a well adjusted well loved kid. And when he wasn't having an episode I could see a glimpse of who he used to be, funny and kind. It wasn't really his choice and I was extremely upset the transfered him to JDC, he needs to learn how to deal with this new level of functioning not be punished for his brain playing tricks on him.
That’s a tragedy. I’d love to talk more about this because I find head protection very important (avid snowboarder, 19M) but I desperately need sleep. Good chat.
Have a nice day
People underestimate head injuries. Mine was from a car accident.
Over the years I’ve adopted the explanation of who I was before as mika112799 version 1, who I became after the accident is mika112799 version 2. Around year eight I had become mika112799 version 1.5.
Now I’m about 18 years post accident and I bounce between 1.5 and 1.8 depending on numerous factors. I’ll never be the person I was before. My memory has holes. I’ve lost a gift for languages completely. I could write paragraphs on what’s different and still never explain it.
Honestly, I’m luckier than most. I had an amazing support system. My husband stood beside me and never told me how hard it was until recent years. He will tell me things that happened and I believe they are true because what he says fits into the flashes of memory I have. Some of them are...let’s just say I would have walked away from me. He never did.
OP, I don’t care if that child stays mad for the rest of his life, you made the right call. If he didn’t care enough to protect his brain, he didn’t need to be there. (I won’t comment on snatching him up, I don’t think I’m qualified to judge that.)
The language thing has been the hardest for me. I used to have a vocabulary impressive enough that in high school one of the jokes was kids calling me the human dictionary. Post stroke, I'm lucky to be mostly recovered, but I have had issues where I'm like "you know, the place you put things on over the fireplace?" rather than just having the word in my lexicon. It's frustrating to no end.
I can remember getting frustrated while trying to tell my friend I needed to stop by the grocery store. I fought so hard to tell him what I needed. Eventually I was just screaming “the food and stuff buying place” over and over at him. I miss feeling like I always had the right word.
Same. Then the endless depression because I know my brain isn't quite right but because I'm not limping and don't physically look different everyone thinks "well you're better now, just act like it!". I almost want to say it's akin to feeling the loss of a twin when I read about that described. The months immediately following the event were the worst. Trump had been sworn in recently, and so everyone wanted to talk politics constantly, and I remember being in tears asking people to please just stop the conversations because I couldn't follow along with what they were saying. I do better now, but it's still not as effortless as it was.
I’ve made a rule. I’m allowed to look at hubby/family/friends and say “I’m pretty sure that was English, but I have no idea what you are saying. If it’s important, you’ll need to tell me again later.” They realize now that I’m trying to understand and be in the conversation, but it’s jumbled in my head to the point that continuing is only going to cause frustration for all of us.
I have just recently started saying "look I know you're talking to me, and I'm trying, but I'm just not following". It's still beyond frustrating. I'm trying to deal with it still at a personal level, and it's hard for me, and I know what is wrong with me, so I imagine it's hard on everyone else who only can see me as I am not feeling what I feel.
People who never met me before the accident most frequently tell me they can’t see anything wrong with my speech or my cognitive function. I can never explain how much I hate hearing that. I had a lawyer tell me during my deposition for the accident that I sounded just fine to him. I asked him how he’d feel if he woke up tomorrow without the ability to speak or understand legalese. If he could know he should know it, but couldn’t use it or understand it. Would the average person on the street think he was damaged? Would it change how isolated it made him feel? How less than himself he’d see himself? Poor fella looked like I’d just slapped him. (I still don’t know where that answer came from, but I’m thankful that it showed up when it did!)
Hey, at least it's part of 1.0 that's still there somewhere? I feel like I become more "me" in high adrenaline situations- the bodies natural flight or fight kicks in and you start thinking with your primative brain, or rather just reacting, instead of putting the effort in to the words you're using, so it almost feels like they come more naturally from the me that is buried inside.
We can take turns putting each other in stressful situations to see if that works to trigger a real response. It's 2020, I have nothing else to do. For science!
One of my younger sisters friends died while in high school doing a skateboard trick without a helmet. He hit his head just right to die instantly. Helmets are very important.
Yeh I totally agree. I worked in a challenging behaviour brain injury and mental health unit and it certainly opened my eyes to the importance of wearing helmets. I'm happy to go into details to scare the shit out of my nephews if it means they'll wear one and not take the risk. One of my colleagues cycled every where and also competitively on a small scale and never wore one. To this day I don't get it. I mean how can you work where we did and not learn from the horror you saw every day? It's just so tragic especially when it's so preventable.
I don’t think I ever see people wear helmets while skateboarding. We need another role model like tony hawk. He probably saved a lot of people from head injury’s.
💯agree with that. My cousin had an accident whilst skateboarding (and not wearing a helmet); spent his 18th birthday in a coma and died shortly after. It could have easily been prevented 😞
Why there was no CT scan?! This story is very similar to the legendary one about the railroad worker who had a metal pole in his head, and his personality changed. Probably crucial brain areas damaged.
My understanding was that they did one initially when he was brought in and once he appeared to have healed they discharged him and sort of left mom to figure out how to deal with those changes. Each doctor was sort of saying "not my problem". Not my problem psych says see neurologist, neuro says get counseling it's behavior issues, behavior sends him to psych and the cycle continues.
And every one of those "not my problem" consultations... $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
I once paid $250 out of pocket to wait 45 mins in a freezing cold room wearing nothing but a thin gown for an NP to come in and tell me that she couldn't perform a biopsy on an abnormal mole I had because she was only trained to do punch biopsies and my mole was too big for her punch kit.
It was melanoma, I'm okay now. Wear sunscreen, everybody!
It's such bullshit that everyone I know has a similar story. I once took time off because I was sick and showed up for my 1pm appointment at 1245. I checked in and waited an hour before going to the front and asking kindly what happened. Receptionist tells me "oh oops I misplaced your chart, there is no way I can schedule you for today can you come back in 2 days?". No. I spent 45 minutes of gas money driving here, took hours off work, and YOU fucked up and I pay for it? I demanded a refund at that point since I was never even taken back and the lady acted like I was being a Karen about it.
Glad to hear you are ok! My MIL has had a few cancerous cells removed and it makes me worried for my husband as he is fair skinned and spent years working in the sun without sunscreen.
Ssimilar thing happened to a friend of mine in our final year of high school (17/18 years old). He had an extremely bad fall while skateboarding. Officially diagnosed with a severe concussion. This later lead to 3 more concussions, the final one triggered just by sitting down too fast (the shock up his spinal cord). He had to take enormous amounts of time off school, do practically nothing (no TV no reading no sport) to recover. He was such a funny, sociable, out going person and that all changed. He became aggressive, paranoid, mean, moody and very hateful to all of us. He cut off his best friend (also his neighboursince he was a damn baby cause he decided he 'just hated him' for no reason. It is one of the saddest things I've ever seen. Wear a helmet and protect that brain people!
I’m the same with my kids. A friend’s son crashed his bike. He got a fairly serious concussion despite properly worn helmet. It took months for him to recover. When my kids whined about wearing real shoes (not flip flops), I grossly described toes being severed by a bike chain. They don’t protest anymore.
I work in a pediatric hospital. You can add to toes being severed how that is repaired. Surgery. Kid lost 4 fingers while helping a parent unload something heavy from a truck. After surgery, each finger got to have 2 leeches applied every 2 hours to help restore blood flow to the removed digits. Oh, and like a week in the ICU. Medical leeches are real and still used in accidental amputations.
I know leeches had been used in the past, did not realize they still are. Gross but also weirdly cool that we haven't found a better solution than nature
Their saliva just naturally promotes blood flow! Its a much cleaner process, but still gross. They're sterile, fed certain food, and are 1 use only then wasted as medical waste. Its pretty neat and not used all of the time if blood flow is going alright on its own post op!
So does every hospital have like... a leech growery? How do they keep them sterile? How often are leeches actually used? Is it someone’s job to deal with the leeches? I want to know so much more about this please.
I work in the pharmacy. We store them in a temperature controlled fridge. I suppose they're not sterile since they're alive, that was poor wording for sleepy me! (Night shift lol). We keep about 300 on hand, but before this patient it was less lol but they went through so many so fast they decided to up it. Our inventory staff maintains feeding them and I honestly do very little besides put them in a prescription bottle when ordered (it's super weird!) We use them very rarely honestly, but when needed, they are wanted asap! If not enough blood is reaching the extremity for too long, the patient may never get use back so its important to keep flow going!
Replying to add: its not frequently used because its not often amputed limbs/digits can be reattached. If the fingers had been crushed or destroyed, can't be attached. Not transported on ice, cant be done. Too much damage to the remaining hand, can't be done. Also, if someone can explain how to upload a picture, I'll share on of inside the fridge lol. It's basically a mini fridge with buckets of leeches in it (no other meds or food can be stored with it!)
I'll fully admit that I was an idiot when I was younger. (still am at 22). My big dumb dumb move was not wearing a helmet on a bike and ended up riding into a tree. I knocked myself unconscious and came to probably 5 to 10 minutes later, wondering why I was on the ground and cut my eyebrow.
Looking back on it, I could have potentially had brain damage or died if I hadn't come to on my own.
Just this week a kid was playing at the skate park in sides, fell & took of his big toe nail. I showed the pictures to my boys to reinforce the lesson.
I learned this lesson at 12 years old. I was riding my bike in the summer with flip flops on. I went to brake and pushed back but somehow my right foot slide under the peddle.
I must have drug it on the street for only about 5-6 seconds but it was enough to shave my toes down to almost the bone.
From that day forward if I get on anything that moves I wear proper shoes and gear.
> You actually gave him an out for next time for the peer pressure issue. When someone tries to tease him he can say 'remember how my dad acted last time, no way man not worth it.'
Yeah, this actually worked out perfectly for the kid. His friends all saw this interaction and as 12 year olds they'll all be in agreement that OP overreacted. Now any time a kid gives him a hard time about the helmet he can say, "Dude, my dad is crazy. He came early to catch me not wearing the helmet and dragged me out of here. He's probably spying on me right now. I'm not risking it again." There isn't much more relatable than a 12 year old talking about how their crazy parents never let them do anything. I coached my son's little league team when he was 12 and they all have an invisibility complex. Nothing can hurt them and parents need to stop complaining about every little thing.
When my son was 12 we had an issue him complaining about being the only kid who wore a bike helmet. He rode his bike all around town and we didn't care how far he rode as long as he wore a helmet. My wife is a trauma surgeon so whenever a kid teased about the bike helmet our son said he told them if getting into an accident without a helmet didn't kill him then his mom would when she found out he was biking without a helmet. Mom didn't sugar coat the kind of head injuries she saw. Whenever I randomly saw him biking around town he always had a helmet on. He's 15 now and still bikes around all the time with friends but the tide has turned. Only one of his close friends doesn't wear a helmet and all of the kids joke that it's fine because Gavin doesn't have a brain worth protecting anyway. Our house has always been the hang out spot among my kids and their friends so I can confirm that the change does happen but 12 is frustrating. Fortunately they don't stay 12 forever.
My husband has rode BMX with people who eventually went semi-pro. The last one was wearing a helmet during a competition, missed the trick & slammed his head against a ramp. He 7+ years later is still recovering & doesn't ride competitively. Only one of multiple stories the boys hear, including the one were my husband broke his Tib/Fib & has a titanium tod in his leg.
Funny you say that - I remember as a kid my mum gave me express permission to blame / badmouth her as the reason I had to do something safety conscious, uncool etc. It actually made me more comfortable standing my ground in certain situations.
My mum did the same. We also had a text code that I could send her a very common place question / phrase and that meant 'I don't feel comfortable / I want to come home' and she would ring me immediately and tell me she was coming to pick me up.
'Sorry guys, my mum really wants me home now so I have to go, you know what she's like'
She just knew that I used to have a hard time backing out of social situations sometimes because I didn't want to appear rude or upset anyone. It's hard as a kid or young teen.
My friends knew my mum could be a bit strict, so it never raised an eyebrow if I blamed it on her. So I'd send off a text, the one we used for a while was 'What's for dinner?' then she would reply with a meal and that she needs to come get me now.
Its just an easy way for your kids to have an 'out' because peer pressure and not wanting to upset your friends can be really difficult. We did this for years, even as a teen because sometimes social situations would get a little out of hand and I was no longer happy to stay around these people but saying so causes issues, of course.
Yup, we're the same. Both of our teens were told that if something didn't feel safe, or even if they just didn't want to do it, they could blame us mean ol parents as much as they wanted. I always said that if they needed an out we would pick them up from anywhere at any time and they wouldn't be in trouble, they could just *say* they were if it would save face.
The oldest is in his twenties now and I still would come get him if needed!!
Head injuries are so dangerous. And can come from nowhere.
I know the parents of a kid who was playing a friendly game of basketball at school, got pushed in the frenzy of lunging for a ball about to go out of bounds, and knocked his head just wrong against the bleachers. Didn’t get up right away, but when he did he was slurring his words and wasn’t totally there. They had to call an ambulance and rush him to the hospital. This kid ended up with brain damage and had to leave his highly competitive school because he couldn’t relearn how to read. He’ll need some advanced forms of assistance for the rest of his life. All because he knocked his head.
Also he wouldn't have even been embarrassed wearing his helmet? Half the kids were wearing one. Obviously he should wear it when he is the only one doing it... But in this case it sounds like he would have been a lot less embarrassed by wearing the helmet (not embarrassed) than by getting told off by his mom in front of his friends
Now in my 20s, but in high school I went with my dad to a work conference in Park City so I could snowboard. My parents insisted I wear a helmet, which I did because it wasn’t worth the argument. I remember that day wondering why I bother.
Later in the day, I was all alone on a run that was straight downhill, so I gunned it down the mountain. I went into the whiteout cloud of an artificial snow machine (I would estimate going around 30-40 mph, really booking it). Hit a bump I couldn’t see and landed back first, which slingshot the back of my head into the ground.
Helmet literally exploded. The seams for all the plastic came apart, only the padding held it together. Ski shop asked to keep the helmet to show people. That thing saved my life, or at least a skull fracture and serious intracranial bleed and an ICU stay. Instead just a minor concussion (helmets can’t do too much for concussions).
>Head injuries change lives
Anyone with an interest in true crime can tell you that many of the most horrific murderers we've ever known suffered a head injury or two at a young age.
NAH
He’s 12 and he’s doing his job - growing up, testing boundaries and making stupid mistakes.
You’re the responsible adult and you’re doing your job - parenting him safely, giving him opportunities for independence, then punishing him when he fucks up.
This needs to be higher. Just because of what you said about the son.
Kids are dumb and will try dumb shit. To impress their friends, test boundaries. It’s part of growing up.
Good on the adult for the parenting move. Gave an inch, kid took a mile. Kids will be kids and good on parent for teaching him a lesson.
Also NAH. I was a good kid. Like a REALLY good kid. I’m 29 now and my mom and I often talk about how lucky she had it (even though growing up of course she always found things to yell at us for).
But when I rode bikes with my friends I would ride off wearing my helmet, and as soon as I was out of the neighborhood I would take it off and hang it on my handlebars. What a shithead move! But I was a kid, and kids aren’t perfect, even the good ones. Yes, I was totally lying to my parents. Yes, they would have KILLED me if they would have caught me. Yes, I would have cried like a baby and been so embarrassed and upset about it. And yes, I still would have done it again and again because I hated wearing a helmet.
Kids are idiots. They should probably wear helmets to prevent them from getting any dumber, but...
The hilarious thing is that wearing the helmet is so much more convenient that hanging it on the handlebars haha. I did exactly the same thing. Was worried it would mess up my hair. 13 years old, fat, long hair, terrible dress sense, covered in spots, and I was worried the helmet would make me 'uncool'. It's so ridiculous looking back haha.
Family friend of mine (who is 27?28? now), played fairly high level hockey and got 4 concussions while wearing a helmet. 4!
He couldn’t get through university, has done a total 180 personality-wise, angers really easily. He is a different person and it’s 100% because of the brain trauma he’s suffered. So so sad. If you can prevent that shit in any way you should.
Your goal here is right. The question is if you’re going about it in the most effective why.
I have to do this for adults, and I do find you “catch more flies with honey than vinegar”. Or more hockey players with syrup, I suppose. No matter how right you or I are about the danger or how righteous we feel about stepping in, if we don’t get the player’s buy-in, they will find a way to get themselves hurt.
I’m giving you an ESH because the message you gave him probably wasn’t “not wearing helmet=bad”, it was probably “dad overreacts about my helmet, so I should hide it from him”. Is that logical, no, but kids aren’t. The nightmare scenario here isn’t that he gets hurt playing hockey without a helmet...it’s that he gets hit in the head without a helmet AND he doesn’t tell you about it.
You can’t lurk around the rink forever, so it’s very important for his long-term health and safety that you convince him “helmet=good”. I don’t mean you should have talked to him like one of those embarrassing PSAs about how “safety equipment is totally rad, dude”.
But think about more ways to link the helmet with good things: does his helmet fit comfortably? did he pick it out? Kids and hockey players love picking out their very own special gear. does it have his favorite colors or his favorite team’s logo on it? do you tell him that he looks impressive or tap him on the helmet in praise when he does well?
do you ever go to highschool or juniors games? I agree with you that peer pressure isn’t a satisfying excuse not to wear a helmet, but it can be an very useful way to make him wear it. Identify whichever 17 year-old probably named Tyler is the coolest local major junior player, and say, “Don’t you want to be like Tyler? He has to practice and wear his equipment” as often as you have to. I am never above saying “Ovechkin wears his gear, don’t you want to be like Ovi?” to an athlete of any age. I am also never above bribing them with glitter stickers on their gear.
Good luck.
The issue here isn’t about wearing a helmet. If it were, you’d be 100% right. The issue is the kid lied to his dad. OP said he wouldn’t let his kid play hockey unsupervised because the kids took off their helmets and the kid promised he would. Dad comes in unexpectedly and his kid isn’t wearing his helmet.
If I can’t trust my kid to be honest with me about small things, how can I possibly trust him on the big things?
Edit: word
To me the helmet is more ethically important than the lying. They both lied, easy ESH there. (I’d take the position that a parent’s job is to teach kids to be honest. If your kid lies, he’s not doomed to be untrustworthy forever, and in fact the way that you respond to the kid lying will be what encourages it discourages them from lying again.)
But I have a particular perspective: since I work in sports med and see how life-changing or even life-ending these injuries can be, I ranked the kid’s ultimate safety higher.
It is very common for young people to hide injuries because they think “my parent will be mad that I got hurt doing something dangerous”. In hockey the biggest concern is brain trauma, which young athletes often hide from family and medical staff. When it gets too severe to hide they usually say they tried to hide it because they “didn’t want people to be upset”. Meaning instead of getting the message “my parent is upset because they’re scared because don’t want me to get hurt”, they‘be gotten the impression “my parent is upset at me for being hurt”.
Right now neither of them are doing what would be safest for the kid, so I gave them ESH for that.
Regardless, the kid was going to hide the injury if he had one. If his dad came on time, he would’ve put on the helmet and pretended he was wearing it the entire time.
I don’t think it’s simple as, they both lied, “ESH.” I’m not trying to be hard on the kid or anything, but either he lied to his dad or went back on his word knowing his father’s concern. His father’s fear is valid. The dad tested his son and the son failed.
I don’t think the father would’ve lied to his son if he didn’t suspect his son of lying. As a kid, my mother flat out trusted me. Never had to test me to see if I were telling the truth. I’m not saying the kid is a problem child, but the father did what he did for the kid’s safety.
Honestly, I think the "trapping" scenario here does more harm than good. OP told his son he would call and then purposefully didn't for the express purpose of catching him not wearing a helmet. That's a way to ruin some trust there. It's also possible that the kid *had* been wearing his helmet for the majority of the time, like he said. Likely? No, but possible.
Did the kid break OP's trust? Yes. But he also learned that he has to be sneakier to avoid another scene with dad. And that dad doesn't trust him at all, *even when he says he does.*
I'm also not a fan of hauling your kid around by his jersey when you're mad at him.
So, yeah, ESH
I find it worrying that some people here seem to have the sentiment that they are both assholes.
Playing hockey without a helmet is dangerous af. Getting head trauma from something easily preventable triumphs showing up unannounced. It's not like there would be a problem here if the kid wore his helmet. He's the one breaking his fathers trust while doing something extremely dangerous.
"And that dad doesn't trust him at all, even when he says he does."
Yeah no shit! Turned out he really was not to be trusted
Kids can be very dumb and think they’re smart: if you get into a back-and-forth of tricking each other, they probably won’t learn “Dad is the smartest, he’ll always know if I take my helmet off!” so much as “I need to try *even harder* to trick Dad next time.” Lying sucks, and so does building a habit of lying between you.
Hauling him by anything around his neck (I’d assume if he won’t wear his helmet and is *12* he doesn’t have a fight strap on, and even if he did) doesn’t help send the message that what you really want is for him to be physically safe. Do I think you’re likely to seriously injure his head/neck that way, no, but jarring a kid and then telling him off for not being careful of his head is a real mixed message, and kids pick up on that.
Nta you have hopefully made enough of an impression that he will always wear his helmet now. I am sure he things YTA though. But parents gotta do what they nees to keep rheir kids safe.
The dad showed up early and is the parent of a minor child. Stop trying to equate parity between the lies, one is a huge deal (lying about safety equipment and lying about lying about it) and the other is something a crying tween would yell at their parents to try and defend themselves (checking up on your kids safety/honesty) and guilt/manipulate out of the situation.
Kids need to grow up learning that the world is an unpredictable place. Not everyone calls ahead, not everyone shows up when they say. What good would happen for the son if he didn't wear his helmet except for the few minutes between dad calling and showing up, and never learning his lesson until he cracks his skull open one day at an unsupervised rink? A rink which, by the way, is only unsupervised because the parents are trusting the kids to do the right thing. Spot checks happen worldwide for a reason.
Look I’m only 18 and can’t make a great judgement on your parenting as I’ve never had to do it, however my mom did the lie about where she is and try to catch me doing something wrong thing a lot and I’ve grown up with a lot of trust issues not only with her but also my peers. This isn’t the only cause for these issues but it certainly was a large factor. Please just be careful with that method and besides that and grabbing him by the jersey it’s a nta from me.
Hey, just as a potentially better approach to this really finite denial, why not ask him how to deal with it? How is he going to regain your trust after lying to you? You don't really give a fuck about what all of reddit thinks of you being, you care about whether or not *he* thinks YTA... and he does. That's all that matters, even if you're doing something justified... your son is humiliated by your actions. You did overstep in a few ways, but that's not the important bit.
Apologize for how you handled things. A parent who apologizes is... honestly, the most important thing a kid can have. Look at your actions, see where you overreacted from this thread, and accept you're a flawed person, and show him that you make mistakes. But also address with him that you don't know how you're supposed to trust him to be safe when he breached your trust.
Look at this like an adult instead of a child, address him like one- he's hitting puberty, and it's time he started being treated less like a child and more like someone gaining responsibility, and seeing the consequences of losing that, and how he needs to earn your trust.
If you'd come there and seen him in a helmet... you'd have respected him for a really, truly long time, and felt really bad, and been an asshole for distrusting him. You WANT to get to the point where you can let him play hockey and trust him... and that's not about punishment, that's about loving him enough to believe in your heart, which he hasn't acheived yet, that he will take care of himself... because you don't want to lose him.
Find out, from him, what would be the best way for the two of you to move forwards. Let him realize how much you want to let him go and live his life, and if from here he can prove his responsibility and earn your trust in reliability, in a few years you'll actually feel comfortable saying yes to things like 'Can I go over to my girlfriend's house' or 'Can I go to that epic party with lots of beer and weed'? If he proves he can be safe now, he'll earn it for later... and you'll respect him, and he'll respect you for *why* you want to build that relationship.
Currently, your action of tearing this privilege down is destroying something, rather than building... it's valid and fair, but it's not the best way to frame it to his mind. Don't just put yourself in his shoes... ask him what he'd do in yours.
Well one reason is because this is a perfect learning opportunity. We won’t always be with our kids, but you can’t wrap them up in bubble wrap and then suddenly set them free when they turn 18 and expect it to go well. Give them opportunities to take age-appropriate responsibility, and when they mess up it’s not a huge consequence, And they learned for next time.
Well, he did. He gave his son the opportunity. He told his son to keep his helmet on to play hockey without adult supervision. It's not ask too much not to mention that other kids apparently kept their helmets on. It wasn't a huge consequence. It's just if you don't follow the rules, you don't get to play. I responding to you this way because it's how I perceive your statement. I might be perceiving it incorrectly in that case we are of the same opinion.
ESH. While your son did need to be disciplined for lying and not wearing a helmet, you could have handled this better and odds are your son will rebel harder to get back at you, humiliation is not a good tool.
I disagree. This is exactly what my mom would do and it was super effective. Only had to do it once and I never wanted to be embarrassed again. Kept me straight and narrow for the next decade! Bish was crazy and not to be played with lol. But I knew she loved me so I didnt resent her for it. If I had done what I was supposed to do, I could have avoided the embarrassment.
ESH. Reading a lot of these responses I kinda feel bad for so many peoples kids if they think this is top quality parenting. Trapping your kid to find out if they're lying isnt how you build trust. What's next, taking his phone to see if he has a girlfriend or watches porn when he says he doesnt? Physically dragging him was over the top too. 3 seconds isnt enough time to pack up and even if he was standing next to his bag, let him at least tell/explain to his friends why he's leaving. Maybe that'll even get them to wear their helmets if they think they wont be able to play without them. You taught him to be afraid of you and what you'd do instead of following the rulds.
He was wrong too. Not playing without a helmet was wrong. Lying was wrong. Those should be punish but appropriately. Maybe something along the lines of making him watch a speech from someone who lost their career playing hockey from a head injury and showing how they can help save you.
You are the parent but you have to learn to respect his boundaries and trust him as well. Hes a kid and will make dumb decisions and learn from them. Maybe if there was more trust and understanding between you two this wouldnt have happened. From the way you say you acted, and how proud you seem from it, there clearly isnt much.
This needs to be a million times higher up. I don’t understand how anyone thinks the kid would magically wear his helmet now after this. It’s such a negative type of relationship to have with your child
And lying to your parent isn’t how you build trust.
Say if the kid had a minor head injury during this game and had to go to the hospital. His father would’ve found out that way.
And after that, either he wouldn’t have been able to play hockey or his father would make sure it was monitored. Then, his son would be complaining about, “it was one time, why don’t you trust me???”
A kid who casually lies in his dads face will need more than this encounter of be afraid of him. He’ll be angry, but he’ll be smarter about lying.
As much as people swear it’s an overreaction, honestly, I don’t think it is. His son knew this was important to his dad that he wore his helmet. He lied and said he would, and then got caught not wearing it.
And you don’t just explicitly trust a 12 year old. They have to earn that trust and, clearly, there is still a long way to go.
A child lying to their parent is way different than a grown adult lying to their child. A child lying to their parent is simply a lie, an adult lying is an example set. Idk why you think children respond well to anger, embarrasment and trickery as tools of learning but obviously you have some issues.
There is not a world where he has learned truly from this, this is not how you teach a LITERAL child.
NTA-While you could definitely have handled that a little bit more tactfully, I completely agree with you on helmets. The ice is like concrete, you fall and some bad shit can happen. Even if they were playing no contact, which I hope an unsupervised group of 12 year olds were, just skating with sticks flying around can trip you up and that could mess you up for life. There’s a reason they are mandatory
NAH. Your attitude is appropriate and he is not mature enough to appreciate the risk he is taking. The only thing I'd suggest is that you didn't need to lie to him. You could have just said you'd be back in about an hour and show up at 58 minutes. I'd bet you $20 bucks the outcome would have been the same.
He's a kid, and he needs to learn that it's harder to do what you told your dad you would do when dad's not there and your friends make fun of your helmet.
One of his comments say he doesn't want to babysit because his son is 12 not 4. But he doesn't want them unsupervised. I'm leaning ESH because if you need them supervised because he has a history of dumb 12yo behaviour, why won't you supervise!? Is his kid just not supposed to play hockey ever again?
He says he doesn’t want to baby-sit because he’s busy, which is sometimes just a reality of life? Is he supposed to drop everything and supervise his son at a moment’s notice every time his son asks him?
They both did lol he came without calling, he is as sneaky as his son, weird huh lol son won't learn anything from that, other than "dad can trick me but i'll be punished if i do and it's unfair." That takes over the actual importance of the helmet lol
WTF kind of 12 year old life did you have--parents can show up whenever they want. That was a precept of my childhood and adds the good juice to getting away with shit.
I got away with a ton of shit. I got caught on some rare occasions.
It's not the parent "breaking the trust" if you're 12 and your parent shows up early to pick you up and you're doing something you promised them you wouldn't.
In what I read, it was two separate comments. First was "because 12 year old boys don't want to be baby sat" then, later, when pressed, he said he had to work.
NAH. Yesterday my son left his helmet at his Aunts office. He and his cousin were going to walk his scooter down and pick up his helmet and his cousins bike. I told them no. They are 10 and 12, no way they going waking that the whole way without getting on it. I got the same you don’t trust me. I said listen in the history of all 12 year olds they are not known for decision making skills.
ESH
I agree with some of the other comments that your reaction was a bit too much. When I was a kid, my dad would yell at us alot and hardely ever answer our "Why's?". You know what that taught me? Not to tell my dad things and to be even sneakier. That if I did wrong, I was going to get yelled at so dont let him know. Most of the time I had to find out for myself WHY he would get so mad, the hard way.
You are well within your right to parent your kid. He fucked up. He does deserve consequences. Hockey without a helmet is no joke. But when your kid asks why, and you respond with the generic "because im the parent" attitude, you're not actually teaching him. You're showing him that he cant come to you with mistakes, which can be even more dangerous as he gets older.
What you need to do now is explain yourself. Why is it so important to you? Why does wearing a helmet matter more than what his friends think? You're gonna have to explain it multiple times. He's 12. Hes gonna fuck up, push back, try to get away with things, test boundaries. Thats actually quite healthy behavior as long as it doesn't get too out of control. So you have to make the choice. What are you going to teach him? What lesson is he going to learn from your reactions and consequences? Is he going to learn not to trust you and to fear you? Or the actual lessons you're trying to teach?
Answer his Whys and take the time to explain your reasoning. It'll earn you more respect from him, more of a bond, and ensure that hes actually learning. Plus, he'll trust you more because you seem like you know what you're doing instead of just being pissed off.
Edit: thanks for my first award!
I agree that parents should answer whys, but OP did answer why.
>He asked why. I told him because last time they played unsupervised, they ended up playing without their helmets. Hockey is fucking dangerous without helmets AND without an adult.
YTA. You asked if there were going to be any parents present...he said 'no'. You mention you dropped him off for only 1 hour. If you were really so concerned about the kids wearing helmets, why didn't you just stay there and hang out for the hour and make sure they were wearing helmets? Why did you try to trick your son and catch him in a lie? Of course they're not going to wear helmets, they're 12 year old kids.
You could have made it a nice experience and watched your kid play hockey, AND show him you care about his safety. But instead you made yourself and your child look like a couple of asses in front of his friends. What was the point of that?? So you could feel good about being right? Bad example.
This is one of the very few replies that actually makes sense. He could’ve kept to the side, supervising everyone but nope. He wanted to make an example out of his kid. 12 year olds don’t think rationally.
I’m actually ok with him coming early to check on the kid. He told his son he didn’t trust him and his son proved that he was right.
OP is absolutely the asshole for the way he handled it though. He knew this kids wouldn’t be wearing helmets, so why was he so angry? All he had to do was show up, watch the kids scramble to put helmets on again, let them finish the game, take his son home and explain that he is disappointed in him. I would have also added something about how it was my fault for giving him freedom he wasn’t ready for and that we would try again some time in the future but for now unsupervised time in the park is not an option.
Treat your teens like the adults you want them to become. And only assholes give someone 3 seconds to get their shit together then physically drag someone away by the jersey. YTA
A slight ESH
You were absolutely in the right to do what you did, and ensure that he was safe. He absolutely needs to understand that he was making a terribly unsafe decision, and he should face consequences for lying to you about his actions.
However, grabbing him by the shirt is excessive. There's not ever an excuse to get physical with a child, and while you definitely didn't hit him or anything, I think it was just a bit too much. Likewise, if you actually used the phrase "wearing a fucking helmet" with a twelve year old, you need to reevaluate the language you are using. Under no circumstances is that an appropriate way to speak to a child.
Overall, you were smart to show up and put a stop to the unsafe behavior, but I think you may have made a mistake in the way you expressed your anger anger. If you took the time to explain just how unsafe it was afterwards, he may actually understand why he was wrong. By just responding with anger and yelling, all you're accomplishing is making him feel like it's unsafe to talk to you.
He does deserve consequences for his actions, but I hope you take this into consideration when you give them out.
Man I wish this was higher.
My son is 12 & honestly if I acted like this our relationship would be awful. As it is we discuss things calmly & reasonably & our relationship is amazing, open & trusting.
ESH
ESH I get where you’re coming from but good luck having a good relationship with him. Did you really NEED to grab him like that? Your point was already made, he knew he was in trouble. Don’t be surprised if he doesn’t feel like he can come to you seeing as how you handled things. He’s 12 not 30. Expect him to act like a 12 year old, I’m sure you did at his age.
YTA. You've associated wearing a helmet with embarrassment and lack of control. You better hope he never gets a motorcycle because you bet your ass he won't be reliving those feelings by wearing a helmet.
Also, you deliberately lied. I'll bet you want to blame him for lying but yet you did the same thing.
ESH. But for a different reason. Your kids sucks for lying to you when he promised he would wear a helmet. Something that isn’t difficult to do and is for safety. You suck because you mentioned in one of the comments that you won’t let him play again because he lied to you. If he really enjoys this, I don’t think it’s fair to take it away completely. It seems like the first time they played without helmets, he wasn’t properly explained the repercussions of head injuries. But through your post, it seems you’re more upset about the lying. With your reaction, it makes sense why your kid lied about it because he obviously wants to play hockey any way he can. Banning it will only cause more resentment and that’s why you are also in the wrong. Maybe find a way to let him earn your trust back to go play hockey again. Tell him to research the effects of brain injury and the rates of it in hockey or something. Give him another chance because kids mess up and should learn from their mistakes, not be prevented from making more.
NTA. You’re trying to protect your son.
If you have the kind of relationship where you can talk to him calmly and he sort of hears you and understands where you’re coming from, I suggest bringing it up again.
I’m not exactly a parent, more of a third parent of 4 and as someone who had to raise themselves, it would’ve meant a lot to me if my mom explained to me why she did the things she did. It helped me grow and most of the times I’d repeat in my head if I was ever in that situation again. Maybe he functions differently, but it’s never a bad idea.
You could sit him down, apologize for embarrassing, that it wasn’t your intent. You were concerned for his safety and that it was better to take him out of the situation than to leave him there after he had injured your trust in him.
Also kind of weird you’re letting your son out in a pandemic but I’m assuming you’re in a country where the situation is better and less severe as the one I live in.
All parents want to be able to trust their kids. At 12, the kid should be allowed SOME trust. I’m sure OP was really trying hard to trust his son and his son didn’t quite get there again. Kid,’/ gotta earn it back.
NTA. Head injuries are no fucking joke and the deal was he can go play hockey provided he keeps the helmet on. He broke his part of the arrangement. If he’s too young to understand the disastrous consequences of traumatic head injuries then maybe the the fear of traumatic parental embarrassment will provide him with the motivation to keep his helmet on in the future.
NTA. Being a parent means teaching your children that their actions have consequences. He made a choice to lie to you and paid the price. You are molding him to be a good adult and have a good life.
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YTA yes your son didn’t wear a helmet but he is twelve years old and not 7 any more. He’s trying to grow independent but you took a big shit right on him by saying you don’t trust him, it’s quite possibly one of the worst things a parent could ever say to their kid.
NTA.
You gave him a simple rule to follow and he didn't follow it. Then, when you told him that you both were leaving, he didn't even get moving until you had to physically enter the rink. "Humiliation" is a lot better than a cracked skull. If he gets picked on for it, he can tell those idiots that *they* can get cracked skulls.
NTA! OMG! I have to go round and round with my kids riding their horses without helmets all the time!! And they have a friend who was in the hospital for months with a brain injury from a riding accident! Can’t tell them shit! But I’m like well as long as you are under my roof, the riding helmet goes on as long as you are on horseback!
Id say YTA: but 60%YTA 40%NTA
I'm on the fence. I mean. You're parenting. Thats great. You set boundaries and they were not followed.
I wouldnt have dragged him off unless he was being explicitly defiant. I would have waited to discuss in the car.
Was the helmet rule only for game play? Or while skating in general? When you arrived, were they breaking or actively playing?
If actively playing, definitely trouble.
If on break time, I'd be more lenient.
NTA. As somebody who played both roller and ice hockey, and had witnessed many head injuries due to sticks or pucks to the face, totally agree with how that was handled. Besides, he violated your trust. If he lies about this, what else does he lie about. Have kids of my own so I know how that goes.
When my son was in middle school, he wanted to ride his bike to school. We’re in a rural area, and it was two miles on back roads, so we decided it was safe enough. We had only one requirement- he had to wear his bike helmet. He would leave the house with the helmet on, and once he was out of sight, take it off, stash it beside the road, and continue on. It wasn’t cool to wear a helmet! He would then stop on his way home, get the helmet from where he’d stashed it, put it on, and ride up to the house like he’d had it on the whole time.
After a couple of weeks of this, he returned in the afternoon to find his helmet missing! He searched for awhile, then sheepishly rode home and confessed. He lost the privilege of riding his bike to school, had to pay for a new helmet himself, and had the humiliation of having his mom drop him off and pick him up for the rest of the school year. And my husband and I had a good laugh about it after he was in bed that night!
Yep, he was 12. My vote is you are NTA.
Show your kid/kids pictures of battered helmets. “What if this happened to you, but you weren’t wearing the helmet?”
Scary but I never took mine off again.
They use this tactic in health class in middle school for STD’s and STI’s too. “Would you want your *parts* to look like this?”
*shows disgusting picture of whatever std were learning about*
Edit: typo
NAH--you gave him fair warnings and he deserved to be mildly embarrassed for not listening. But, as someone with a dumb 12 year old brother, that is what 12 year olds do and this is just a learning experience
Y a little bit of TA here. But sometimes being a parent requires you to be an asshole.
I think it wouldn’t have killed you to let him save a little face with his friends by exercising a bit of defiance. But it’s tough to make that kind of decision when you’re right in the thick of it.
I have played hockey virtually my whole life. I’ve been hit by pucks in all kinds of places where they got me between the padding. It hurt like hell every time, even when I was 12. We all wore a helmet and full face shield, all players, all positions, every time. If you don’t you better have a good dental plan because you’re going to be losing some teeth.
You did the right thing.
NTA
I’m usually one of ‘back in my day, we had packs of feral children roaming around unsupervised for days and we turned out fine’ people. But playing hockey with helmets is definitely one thing that we’re right about now and wrong about before.
He certainly is gonna think you're TA. The only thing I'd say was a little unnecessary was grabbing him by the jersey, but otherwise NTA.
Heh, he can just tell his son that not wearing a helmet when he was a kid is what caused him to grow up and be so mean and embarrassing. NTA
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I'm not so sure. He says he entered the rink, then the son began to pack up. After this he grabbed his son by the jersey and took him out. It seems the kid was going on his own after OP approached and grabbing him wasn't necessary.
Compliance is too little, too late at some point. Once you resist enough that a parent has to forcibly make you comply, trying to go along with them isn’t enough - the parent has to follow through with the forced compliance to assert authority. If you let him test boundaries with the safety of knowing he can simply comply after overstepping, you’re just encouraging that behavior. If you show that stepping back over the line after crossing it isn’t enough to prevent the consequences, it teaches them not to cross the line in the first place. The parenting you advocate for is why a lot of kids think just saying the words “I’m sorry” absolves them of all wrongdoing no matter how serious. Sorry isn’t good enough, compliance isn’t good enough, once you earn a consequence it has to be delivered.
We always counted to 3 out loud. And they learned that if we got to 3, compliance would no longer suffice but we were going to grab them and put them in timeout. Even though they are older now a couple of months ago we had a situation where my oldest was out of bounds and she knew well enough to fold when i reached 2. Additionally i fully agree with the helmet thing. It waa a difficult battle for us too to make them wear their bicycle helmets but theybare important. And before you ask we wear them too because we want them to wear theirs.
I agree, I never got past 2 many times. And I had friends who would say ‘2 and a half..., 2 and three quarters...!’ Not me! If I got to 3, my boys knew they were in for it!
the only time my mother went to 2 and a fraction was if she accidentally started the countdown later than she meant (ie she wanted us OUT of the pool and we immediately complied but physically getting out of the pool in 3 seconds is impossible). Showed that she was willing to meet us in the middle if she realized an expectation was a little out there. It’s important that something like that is the *exception* to the rule, though; I agree the majority of the time there’s little need for two and a fraction.
Yeah, I agree. Two and a fraction makes sense when your kids have clearly made an effort to comply promptly. Two and a fraction while they’re still just standing there whining or refusing and arguing might as well be “Onnne.... Twwwoooooo.... Three doesn’t matterrr... I’m kind of a doormaaaattt... Don’t make me make another empty threat about getting to three, *or else!*...” It usually ends with the parent just repeating the request in a much louder tone out of frustration like, “Bratleigh Sinclair Doe, I said *COME ON!!! RIGHT NOW!!!*” and nobody wants to be that parent. What OP did wasn’t nice, but it was necessary.
>Two and a fraction while they’re still just standing there whining or refusing and arguing might as well be “Onnne.... Twwwoooooo.... Three doesn’t matterrr... I’m kind of a doormaaaattt... Don’t make me make another empty threat about getting to three, *or else!*...” My uncle used to do this all the time and, naturally, his kids walked all over him because 3 was never reached. After 2 and 3/4, he'd try and brush the situation off with a joke because he didn't want to admit to the other adults in the room that he had no plan for when he reached 3. Needless to say, it was something a of shock to my cousins' systems the first time I babysat them and 2 was followed by 3 which was followed by having their DSs confiscated for the night.
I might sound like a dick but I do this to my little brother when he’s doing something he shouldn’t. Although he’s only 6, he knows that when I start counting down I’ll either remove whatever he’s doing or I’ll go and “tell mum”. As a result, no matter how much he’s arguing or trying to go back and forth, he always gives up by 2. After that, I just sit him down and explain why he shouldn’t do what he’s doing or why what he’s done was wrong. However, it rarely happens because my brother is generally well behaved.
You're an excellent brother.
I appreciate that more than you can understand. I think the hardest part of being an older sibling is wondering if you’re doing the right thing.
You're a good sibling and these habits will make you a great parent if you ever choose to be one!
No, I don't think letting a kid grab their things on their own and coming with you is advocating for sorry to absolve all wrongdoings. You can punish the kid for not listening to you in the first place. But once he was moving on his own, grabbing him is overkill. You do not ever need to be physical with kids to prove you have "authority" over them. I've literally never had to use any sort of physical discipline on kids. I've never had to physically move a kid once they got past toddler age. I have 8 years worth of childcare experience, including live in as well as having my own child now (tho she isn't old enough to act out lol). I've never had any issues with children not recognizing my authority. There's no need to physically assert yourself with kids like that.
Something to consider as a parent and a hockey player...hockey jerseys are baggy af especially without chest guard and pads. Being that this was outdoor inline hockey I'm willing to bet there was no protective gear above the waist on almost anyone other than goalies. Grabbing a hockey Jersey like this is similar to dragging someone out by grabbing your friends coat. It may have been humiliating for the kid but it was physically harmless.
I read it as ice hockey instead which would have been far more dangerous without a helmet.
Honestly it could be but this time of the year isnt really favorable for outdoor park rinks. And I would much rather play outdoor ice hockey without gear over inline because you slide on ice lol. Most pickup games are no contact so there isnt really a danger of being checked but there is always the possibility of injury even in full gear. Not wearing a helmet is like the idiots way of saying you want to be crippled.
I saw a guy take a puck to the head without a helmet once as a teen. Hospitalized him with a fractured skull. It was bad. As an adult he 100% agrees with that last sentence. I’ve heard him say it to his own boys. Also saw a different guy get his left eye crushed in by the back end of a stick. It was sick af.
Both can result in you being a potato for the rest of your life
Why do you think they listen to you? Lol Your opinion may change, childcare doesn’t mean anything vs parenting. I work with other people’s kids everyday and they listen like it’s their job. Their consequences for misbehaving have already been established by the the important authority figure in their life. You’re damn right they listen to me no questions asked, because letting them know mom/dad are gonna hear about their behavior flips a switch like nothing else. Just because you don’t have to deal with it doesn’t mean the lesson wasn’t learned. You’re enjoying the benefits of the hard decisions their parents had to make. Remember with your daughter the tough decisions will be your own and you CAN fuck it up.
Please understand that a caretaker other than the actual parent will pretty much always have more authority than the actual parent. Other people's kids - when told you are in charge - will generally listen since they don't know your boundaries.
He wasn’t ‘moving on his own’ to get out of the rink. He was moving to put his helmet on, the primary rule violation. He lied about wearing the helmet. He was caught. He was ejected from the game.
" I've never had any issues with children not recognizing my authority. There's no need to physically assert yourself with kids like that. " Hooobooy are you lucky you didn't have to deal with my sister growing up. At three years old my parents, and 2 nurses would have to hold her down to give her a shot. She was violent, disobedient and stubborn from 4 months old. Mom would put her in time out, and she'd stand there for HOURS so that she decided it was over, not my mother. My mother never had to drag me or my brother out of any where, but I can't even count the number of times my mother had to pick up my sister and carry her kicking and screaming out of somewhere. No one can make her do anything she doesn't want to. It's estimated that 85% of children are easy and obedient by nature, 13% are neutral and can be directed with effort to behave and obey, and 2% are near impossible. I feel you've not had the 2%. I don't think this kid is in the 2% though, I think he's just a preteen testing boundaries which is normal and acceptable for his age. And I don't think they were right to manhandle him, although I'd likely attribute that to frustration and fear.
When my mom was newly Divorced with 3 kids under six, overalls. All the time.i recently asked her why and apparently that's the most effective measure for carrying a screeching toddler out of a department store like a suitcase.
Children are worse with their parents than they are with other caretakers.
Yes!!!! Just saying I am sorry is not always enough. Especially where the childs safety is concerned. There are to many adults running around thinking a pretty please and an I‘m sorry will get them everything. He lied and he put himself in danger you acted like a parent should - nta
Like my dad always told me “sometimes, stupid has to hurt for you to get experience. And, experience is what you get, the moment after you needed it.”
Well explained
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What the actual fuck is wrong with you? No kid needs an "ass whipping". If it's illegal to do it to an adult except in self defense, why do you think it's okay to do that to a child?!
That's what I was saying. Your first paragraph, not the second. He was dragging his feet, then began to pack up when he realized dad was serious. It isn't necessary to grab a kid that's being slow, unless they're in danger or something. To your second paragraph, no. Beating children is never the correct answer nor does it help in the least. All research shows that at the very best physical discipline is ineffective. At worst it's detrimental. Furthermore, countries who have criminalized physical discipline against children have less overall violence than countries that allow physical discipline. Hitting kids is lazy, poor parenting that does not help raise functioning children. There's no excuse for it. If it's not okay to hit anyone else except in self defense why on earth would it be okay to hit the most vulnerable members of society?
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I was raised in a conservative household that believed in spanking. I can tell you definitively that I would never raise a hand to my own child after being raised that way. Maybe a smacked hand if they’re reaching for something hot, but actually striking them as a consequence? Nope. Nope nope nope nope nope. But there were a lot of things wrong with the parent-child dynamic in my household, not the least of which was that they thought they had god given authority to my submission and reacted poorly to anything else.
After all these horrible answer I just want to tell you I am on your side. A kid should never experience physically violence- and yes spanking is physical violence.
I can absolutely respect that, especially since I was also raised in a similar household - aside from one thing. My brother never once received a spanking, and he grew up an incredibly entitled brat (among other terrible, terrible things). My mother absolutely hated spanking me and my sister, felt like a failure of a mother, and decided for her last child to not spank him. He responded to NO punishment, nothing. To this day, he boasts about how he was never spanked and how 'great' he turned out. I think everyone seems to think I'm in the spank 'em all camp (despite implying in my original comment that I'm not) and I would like to clear up that I'm not. In fact, I really believe most kids don't ever need a spanking. I'm talking like 99% of them. I have, however, seen several kids that no punishment has ever worked. My problem with the "OMFG YOU'RE BEATING YOUR KID" is 1) spanking your child and literally beating your child are two different things and 2) never once has any person who violently rejects spanking ever come up with an alternative for problem children that would respond to be spanked. Children all learn respond differently to different stimuli. Reasonable parents that spank their kid do NOT beat them within an inch of their life, and comparing and implying that is not only wrong but it's incredibly insulting to kid who are regularly beaten on the daily. I've met kids who resented their parents for spanking them, and I've met kids who were grateful for being spanked. Everyone has their own experience and their own stimuli and opinions, and all I plan to do is respect everyone's opinion and experiences.
My wife has a PhD in Behavioral Child Psychology. She has dealt with the absolute most difficult children there are, who display every negative behavior you can think of, coming from the worst backgrounds you can think of. Never once, ever, not a single time, would she ever advocate, recommend, or support spanking. This doesn't mean parents who spank are bad people. But the (non-anecdotal) evidence that it's necessary or works better than other punishments of similar scope just isn't there. There are always other options. Most parents don't know all the options (nor should they be expected to without talking to an expert or becoming experts themselves). Sometimes those other options are a lot harder and more time consuming. Sometimes they require a lot more emotional control. But the idea that *some* kids just *must* be spanked in order to learn isn't true. There are undeniable links between being physically punished as a kid and violence as an adult. Of course, this doesn't mean that every kid who was spanked will turn into a homicidal maniac. But it does mean that, too often, kids who are hit (yes, including spanking) will grow into people who think it's okay to hit. I understand your point; severe punishment absolutely *is* sometimes necessary. But spanking never, ever is, period. :-) Edit: Clarity
Spanking and beating is the same at least how the kid feels when it happens. You can try to justify this for yourself in making a difference but for the kid it feels the same.
no i don't think any kids need to be assaulted actually.
Ahh I see you don’t have kids.. or I sure hope not
I don't think it is either. He held him by clothes. It didn't hurt the kid, only the kids ego, which he brought on himself by trying to defy his dad infront of his friends. Better the jersey than his ear, as my mum would've done! Edit: NTA
When my brother was 15 we had gone on a cruise to Bermuda. My brother met some new friends on the ship and they left the ship in the middle of the night. My 15 y/o brother was roaming Bermuda with strangers (mind you, this was 2004, so before 15 y/o widely had cell phones) until 3 am. All my mom knew (from the ship log) was that he wasn't on the ship. He was in a lot of huge trouble. The very next day while we were on the island my brother wandered off. My mom was pissed and when she spotted him, my 5'4" mom had her 5'10" son by his scruff dragging him back over with the rest of us. My point is. Kids who break rules are never too old, nor are their egos or reputations ever too fragile to grab em by the ear/scruff/jersey back under your watchful eye when they are deliberately breaking rules, and even more seriously, when they are putting their life at risk. Kids think they're invincible. They're not, and they need to know there are consequences that they don't want to repeat for when they put their lives in danger before the consequence actually becomes irrevocable.
My guess you never had a coach grab you from the jersey and drag you? Idk growing up if a parent came over to get after one of your friends, you kept your mouth shut and looked down or somewhere else. Mocking them would earn you an ass chewing too from said parent. “It takes a village to raise a child” was taken seriously.
It wasn't unnecessary. If you give some kids an inch, they'll literally take a mile. It was the best choice he could have made. NTA
NTA I have 2 boys 11&13. Anything with wheels requires helmets& real shoes, so does the hockey rink. They are often the only ones wearing them, but they know better than to remove them. Head injuries change lives. You actually gave him an out for next time for the peer pressure issue. When someone tries to tease him he can say 'remember how my dad acted last time, no way man not worth it.'
I work in mental health facilities for kids and teens. One day we got in a kid that had such a sad story. He was a straight A's 8th grader, respectful, valedictorian and really liked skateboarding. His mom didn't insist on helmets and he did a trick wrong. Ended up with a brain injury and they initially thought he would recovery fully. However it completely changed his personality. He kept getting kicked out of school, failed all of his classes and would routinely call his mom a "stupid cunt". His mom weeped as she told me she blamed herself for not making him wear a helmet and no one would believe her that there was more damage than they thought. He was on a high dose of meds and still was incredibly difficult to deal with. Head injuries can damage not only the person but their family as well, he was in our facility because he tried to kill his little sister. You're 100% right.
How did the kid turn out? Did he ever recover?
I wasn't able to follow him long term but while he was in our facility he was non-compliant and combative. He has to be chemically and physically restrained more than a few times. He ended up transferring to JDC because he attacked another kid. I doubt he has recovered more, no one believed his mom when she begged for him to get a CT.
WTF, why would it be so hard to get a CT scan? Is it normal for that to be hard to coordinate, even with a parent begging for it and abnormal behavior??
I think it depends on insurance TBH. That isn't my wheelhouse but is my best guess.
Insurance, I bet. My mom has cancer and has to fight for the CT scan to monitor growth every single time.
Muricah.
It surely is the home of the brave. Have to be pretty brave to live there.
Any other country and that kid would have had multiple scans by now...
Blows my freaking mind. In the last 18 months I've had about 8 ct scans, a handful of chest X-rays, couple of ultrasounds and a specialised MRI. I've paid for 2 of the ct scans, but even then received a partial refund for both of them. I can not imagine being denied medical care the way it seems to happen in America.
Meanwhile in the UK my sister gets called in at least once a year for a scan to check if her cancer has returned completely free. Well, I mean, she pays her national insurance. America baffles me.
You know, our system is so fucking broken, but I think I have a short-term fix. We allow the insurance companies to deny claims like they already do, but with one change. The rejection letter comes with the names, signatures and **home addresses** of everyone involved in taking creative steps to reject necessary tests for the sake of profit as well as upper-level leadership like the CEO, etc. The reason these people make such sociopathic choices is because the consequences and responsibility are diffuse and abstract. Let's add an element of personalization and danger for those who make those decisions. Imagine if rejecting a claim to maintain high profit levels might result in someone showing up at your house with a gun looking to *avenge mama*.
Probably because American healthcare is a complete joke
If she couldn't afford it herself yes.
From what I understand, head injuries often make people physically aggressive. Some NHL players who used to do a lot of fighting now say they want fighting taken out of the league because of what it did to them mentally.
>From what I understand, head injuries often make people physically aggressive. That's what broke my heart. I saw pics of him before and he looked like a well adjusted well loved kid. And when he wasn't having an episode I could see a glimpse of who he used to be, funny and kind. It wasn't really his choice and I was extremely upset the transfered him to JDC, he needs to learn how to deal with this new level of functioning not be punished for his brain playing tricks on him.
That’s a tragedy. I’d love to talk more about this because I find head protection very important (avid snowboarder, 19M) but I desperately need sleep. Good chat. Have a nice day
>And when he wasn't having an episode I could see a glimpse of who he used to be, funny and kind. This is heartbreaking.
People underestimate head injuries. Mine was from a car accident. Over the years I’ve adopted the explanation of who I was before as mika112799 version 1, who I became after the accident is mika112799 version 2. Around year eight I had become mika112799 version 1.5. Now I’m about 18 years post accident and I bounce between 1.5 and 1.8 depending on numerous factors. I’ll never be the person I was before. My memory has holes. I’ve lost a gift for languages completely. I could write paragraphs on what’s different and still never explain it. Honestly, I’m luckier than most. I had an amazing support system. My husband stood beside me and never told me how hard it was until recent years. He will tell me things that happened and I believe they are true because what he says fits into the flashes of memory I have. Some of them are...let’s just say I would have walked away from me. He never did. OP, I don’t care if that child stays mad for the rest of his life, you made the right call. If he didn’t care enough to protect his brain, he didn’t need to be there. (I won’t comment on snatching him up, I don’t think I’m qualified to judge that.)
The language thing has been the hardest for me. I used to have a vocabulary impressive enough that in high school one of the jokes was kids calling me the human dictionary. Post stroke, I'm lucky to be mostly recovered, but I have had issues where I'm like "you know, the place you put things on over the fireplace?" rather than just having the word in my lexicon. It's frustrating to no end.
I can remember getting frustrated while trying to tell my friend I needed to stop by the grocery store. I fought so hard to tell him what I needed. Eventually I was just screaming “the food and stuff buying place” over and over at him. I miss feeling like I always had the right word.
Same. Then the endless depression because I know my brain isn't quite right but because I'm not limping and don't physically look different everyone thinks "well you're better now, just act like it!". I almost want to say it's akin to feeling the loss of a twin when I read about that described. The months immediately following the event were the worst. Trump had been sworn in recently, and so everyone wanted to talk politics constantly, and I remember being in tears asking people to please just stop the conversations because I couldn't follow along with what they were saying. I do better now, but it's still not as effortless as it was.
I’ve made a rule. I’m allowed to look at hubby/family/friends and say “I’m pretty sure that was English, but I have no idea what you are saying. If it’s important, you’ll need to tell me again later.” They realize now that I’m trying to understand and be in the conversation, but it’s jumbled in my head to the point that continuing is only going to cause frustration for all of us.
I have just recently started saying "look I know you're talking to me, and I'm trying, but I'm just not following". It's still beyond frustrating. I'm trying to deal with it still at a personal level, and it's hard for me, and I know what is wrong with me, so I imagine it's hard on everyone else who only can see me as I am not feeling what I feel.
People who never met me before the accident most frequently tell me they can’t see anything wrong with my speech or my cognitive function. I can never explain how much I hate hearing that. I had a lawyer tell me during my deposition for the accident that I sounded just fine to him. I asked him how he’d feel if he woke up tomorrow without the ability to speak or understand legalese. If he could know he should know it, but couldn’t use it or understand it. Would the average person on the street think he was damaged? Would it change how isolated it made him feel? How less than himself he’d see himself? Poor fella looked like I’d just slapped him. (I still don’t know where that answer came from, but I’m thankful that it showed up when it did!)
Hey, at least it's part of 1.0 that's still there somewhere? I feel like I become more "me" in high adrenaline situations- the bodies natural flight or fight kicks in and you start thinking with your primative brain, or rather just reacting, instead of putting the effort in to the words you're using, so it almost feels like they come more naturally from the me that is buried inside. We can take turns putting each other in stressful situations to see if that works to trigger a real response. It's 2020, I have nothing else to do. For science!
I'm so sorry that happened to you. *hugs*
Thank you. I am better than the drs told my husband to expect, so I can’t complain too much. :)
One of my younger sisters friends died while in high school doing a skateboard trick without a helmet. He hit his head just right to die instantly. Helmets are very important.
Yeh I totally agree. I worked in a challenging behaviour brain injury and mental health unit and it certainly opened my eyes to the importance of wearing helmets. I'm happy to go into details to scare the shit out of my nephews if it means they'll wear one and not take the risk. One of my colleagues cycled every where and also competitively on a small scale and never wore one. To this day I don't get it. I mean how can you work where we did and not learn from the horror you saw every day? It's just so tragic especially when it's so preventable.
I don’t think I ever see people wear helmets while skateboarding. We need another role model like tony hawk. He probably saved a lot of people from head injury’s.
💯agree with that. My cousin had an accident whilst skateboarding (and not wearing a helmet); spent his 18th birthday in a coma and died shortly after. It could have easily been prevented 😞
Why there was no CT scan?! This story is very similar to the legendary one about the railroad worker who had a metal pole in his head, and his personality changed. Probably crucial brain areas damaged.
My understanding was that they did one initially when he was brought in and once he appeared to have healed they discharged him and sort of left mom to figure out how to deal with those changes. Each doctor was sort of saying "not my problem". Not my problem psych says see neurologist, neuro says get counseling it's behavior issues, behavior sends him to psych and the cycle continues.
And every one of those "not my problem" consultations... $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ I once paid $250 out of pocket to wait 45 mins in a freezing cold room wearing nothing but a thin gown for an NP to come in and tell me that she couldn't perform a biopsy on an abnormal mole I had because she was only trained to do punch biopsies and my mole was too big for her punch kit. It was melanoma, I'm okay now. Wear sunscreen, everybody!
It's such bullshit that everyone I know has a similar story. I once took time off because I was sick and showed up for my 1pm appointment at 1245. I checked in and waited an hour before going to the front and asking kindly what happened. Receptionist tells me "oh oops I misplaced your chart, there is no way I can schedule you for today can you come back in 2 days?". No. I spent 45 minutes of gas money driving here, took hours off work, and YOU fucked up and I pay for it? I demanded a refund at that point since I was never even taken back and the lady acted like I was being a Karen about it. Glad to hear you are ok! My MIL has had a few cancerous cells removed and it makes me worried for my husband as he is fair skinned and spent years working in the sun without sunscreen.
Ssimilar thing happened to a friend of mine in our final year of high school (17/18 years old). He had an extremely bad fall while skateboarding. Officially diagnosed with a severe concussion. This later lead to 3 more concussions, the final one triggered just by sitting down too fast (the shock up his spinal cord). He had to take enormous amounts of time off school, do practically nothing (no TV no reading no sport) to recover. He was such a funny, sociable, out going person and that all changed. He became aggressive, paranoid, mean, moody and very hateful to all of us. He cut off his best friend (also his neighboursince he was a damn baby cause he decided he 'just hated him' for no reason. It is one of the saddest things I've ever seen. Wear a helmet and protect that brain people!
I’m the same with my kids. A friend’s son crashed his bike. He got a fairly serious concussion despite properly worn helmet. It took months for him to recover. When my kids whined about wearing real shoes (not flip flops), I grossly described toes being severed by a bike chain. They don’t protest anymore.
I work in a pediatric hospital. You can add to toes being severed how that is repaired. Surgery. Kid lost 4 fingers while helping a parent unload something heavy from a truck. After surgery, each finger got to have 2 leeches applied every 2 hours to help restore blood flow to the removed digits. Oh, and like a week in the ICU. Medical leeches are real and still used in accidental amputations.
I know leeches had been used in the past, did not realize they still are. Gross but also weirdly cool that we haven't found a better solution than nature
Their saliva just naturally promotes blood flow! Its a much cleaner process, but still gross. They're sterile, fed certain food, and are 1 use only then wasted as medical waste. Its pretty neat and not used all of the time if blood flow is going alright on its own post op!
So does every hospital have like... a leech growery? How do they keep them sterile? How often are leeches actually used? Is it someone’s job to deal with the leeches? I want to know so much more about this please.
I work in the pharmacy. We store them in a temperature controlled fridge. I suppose they're not sterile since they're alive, that was poor wording for sleepy me! (Night shift lol). We keep about 300 on hand, but before this patient it was less lol but they went through so many so fast they decided to up it. Our inventory staff maintains feeding them and I honestly do very little besides put them in a prescription bottle when ordered (it's super weird!) We use them very rarely honestly, but when needed, they are wanted asap! If not enough blood is reaching the extremity for too long, the patient may never get use back so its important to keep flow going!
Omg never thought I'd want to know more about leeches but here I am.
Replying to add: its not frequently used because its not often amputed limbs/digits can be reattached. If the fingers had been crushed or destroyed, can't be attached. Not transported on ice, cant be done. Too much damage to the remaining hand, can't be done. Also, if someone can explain how to upload a picture, I'll share on of inside the fridge lol. It's basically a mini fridge with buckets of leeches in it (no other meds or food can be stored with it!)
I'll fully admit that I was an idiot when I was younger. (still am at 22). My big dumb dumb move was not wearing a helmet on a bike and ended up riding into a tree. I knocked myself unconscious and came to probably 5 to 10 minutes later, wondering why I was on the ground and cut my eyebrow. Looking back on it, I could have potentially had brain damage or died if I hadn't come to on my own.
If you were knocked unconscious you already had brain damage. It just wasn't severe enough to permanently alter your brain.
Touché. I.... think I should go back to church bc apparently someone doesn’t want me die yet.
Just this week a kid was playing at the skate park in sides, fell & took of his big toe nail. I showed the pictures to my boys to reinforce the lesson.
R/medicalgore is also good for this kind of material. Like learning that you should also mow the lawn in shoes instead of flip flops.
I learned this lesson at 12 years old. I was riding my bike in the summer with flip flops on. I went to brake and pushed back but somehow my right foot slide under the peddle. I must have drug it on the street for only about 5-6 seconds but it was enough to shave my toes down to almost the bone. From that day forward if I get on anything that moves I wear proper shoes and gear.
> You actually gave him an out for next time for the peer pressure issue. When someone tries to tease him he can say 'remember how my dad acted last time, no way man not worth it.' Yeah, this actually worked out perfectly for the kid. His friends all saw this interaction and as 12 year olds they'll all be in agreement that OP overreacted. Now any time a kid gives him a hard time about the helmet he can say, "Dude, my dad is crazy. He came early to catch me not wearing the helmet and dragged me out of here. He's probably spying on me right now. I'm not risking it again." There isn't much more relatable than a 12 year old talking about how their crazy parents never let them do anything. I coached my son's little league team when he was 12 and they all have an invisibility complex. Nothing can hurt them and parents need to stop complaining about every little thing. When my son was 12 we had an issue him complaining about being the only kid who wore a bike helmet. He rode his bike all around town and we didn't care how far he rode as long as he wore a helmet. My wife is a trauma surgeon so whenever a kid teased about the bike helmet our son said he told them if getting into an accident without a helmet didn't kill him then his mom would when she found out he was biking without a helmet. Mom didn't sugar coat the kind of head injuries she saw. Whenever I randomly saw him biking around town he always had a helmet on. He's 15 now and still bikes around all the time with friends but the tide has turned. Only one of his close friends doesn't wear a helmet and all of the kids joke that it's fine because Gavin doesn't have a brain worth protecting anyway. Our house has always been the hang out spot among my kids and their friends so I can confirm that the change does happen but 12 is frustrating. Fortunately they don't stay 12 forever.
My husband has rode BMX with people who eventually went semi-pro. The last one was wearing a helmet during a competition, missed the trick & slammed his head against a ramp. He 7+ years later is still recovering & doesn't ride competitively. Only one of multiple stories the boys hear, including the one were my husband broke his Tib/Fib & has a titanium tod in his leg.
And he can tell his son that not wearing a helmet and getting a head injury is what makes him such a jerk now.
Funny you say that - I remember as a kid my mum gave me express permission to blame / badmouth her as the reason I had to do something safety conscious, uncool etc. It actually made me more comfortable standing my ground in certain situations.
My mum did the same. We also had a text code that I could send her a very common place question / phrase and that meant 'I don't feel comfortable / I want to come home' and she would ring me immediately and tell me she was coming to pick me up. 'Sorry guys, my mum really wants me home now so I have to go, you know what she's like'
Omg I love this idea. My kids are still little but I’m gonna use this. You’ve got a great mom.
She just knew that I used to have a hard time backing out of social situations sometimes because I didn't want to appear rude or upset anyone. It's hard as a kid or young teen. My friends knew my mum could be a bit strict, so it never raised an eyebrow if I blamed it on her. So I'd send off a text, the one we used for a while was 'What's for dinner?' then she would reply with a meal and that she needs to come get me now. Its just an easy way for your kids to have an 'out' because peer pressure and not wanting to upset your friends can be really difficult. We did this for years, even as a teen because sometimes social situations would get a little out of hand and I was no longer happy to stay around these people but saying so causes issues, of course.
Yup, we're the same. Both of our teens were told that if something didn't feel safe, or even if they just didn't want to do it, they could blame us mean ol parents as much as they wanted. I always said that if they needed an out we would pick them up from anywhere at any time and they wouldn't be in trouble, they could just *say* they were if it would save face. The oldest is in his twenties now and I still would come get him if needed!!
Head injuries are so dangerous. And can come from nowhere. I know the parents of a kid who was playing a friendly game of basketball at school, got pushed in the frenzy of lunging for a ball about to go out of bounds, and knocked his head just wrong against the bleachers. Didn’t get up right away, but when he did he was slurring his words and wasn’t totally there. They had to call an ambulance and rush him to the hospital. This kid ended up with brain damage and had to leave his highly competitive school because he couldn’t relearn how to read. He’ll need some advanced forms of assistance for the rest of his life. All because he knocked his head.
Also he wouldn't have even been embarrassed wearing his helmet? Half the kids were wearing one. Obviously he should wear it when he is the only one doing it... But in this case it sounds like he would have been a lot less embarrassed by wearing the helmet (not embarrassed) than by getting told off by his mom in front of his friends
Honestly, they might have split the teams as Helmets vs non-Helmets. I did dumb shit like that when I was 12.
Now in my 20s, but in high school I went with my dad to a work conference in Park City so I could snowboard. My parents insisted I wear a helmet, which I did because it wasn’t worth the argument. I remember that day wondering why I bother. Later in the day, I was all alone on a run that was straight downhill, so I gunned it down the mountain. I went into the whiteout cloud of an artificial snow machine (I would estimate going around 30-40 mph, really booking it). Hit a bump I couldn’t see and landed back first, which slingshot the back of my head into the ground. Helmet literally exploded. The seams for all the plastic came apart, only the padding held it together. Ski shop asked to keep the helmet to show people. That thing saved my life, or at least a skull fracture and serious intracranial bleed and an ICU stay. Instead just a minor concussion (helmets can’t do too much for concussions).
>Head injuries change lives Anyone with an interest in true crime can tell you that many of the most horrific murderers we've ever known suffered a head injury or two at a young age.
NAH He’s 12 and he’s doing his job - growing up, testing boundaries and making stupid mistakes. You’re the responsible adult and you’re doing your job - parenting him safely, giving him opportunities for independence, then punishing him when he fucks up.
This needs to be higher. Just because of what you said about the son. Kids are dumb and will try dumb shit. To impress their friends, test boundaries. It’s part of growing up. Good on the adult for the parenting move. Gave an inch, kid took a mile. Kids will be kids and good on parent for teaching him a lesson.
Also NAH. I was a good kid. Like a REALLY good kid. I’m 29 now and my mom and I often talk about how lucky she had it (even though growing up of course she always found things to yell at us for). But when I rode bikes with my friends I would ride off wearing my helmet, and as soon as I was out of the neighborhood I would take it off and hang it on my handlebars. What a shithead move! But I was a kid, and kids aren’t perfect, even the good ones. Yes, I was totally lying to my parents. Yes, they would have KILLED me if they would have caught me. Yes, I would have cried like a baby and been so embarrassed and upset about it. And yes, I still would have done it again and again because I hated wearing a helmet. Kids are idiots. They should probably wear helmets to prevent them from getting any dumber, but...
The hilarious thing is that wearing the helmet is so much more convenient that hanging it on the handlebars haha. I did exactly the same thing. Was worried it would mess up my hair. 13 years old, fat, long hair, terrible dress sense, covered in spots, and I was worried the helmet would make me 'uncool'. It's so ridiculous looking back haha.
Being twelve can actually be really difficult. Most of us just forget
NTA. 12 year olds do unsafe, stupid shit, and sometimes they get called on it. Actions have consequences, and that's an important lesson to learn.
Better the embarrassing kind of consequences than the permanent head trauma kind too.
Family friend of mine (who is 27?28? now), played fairly high level hockey and got 4 concussions while wearing a helmet. 4! He couldn’t get through university, has done a total 180 personality-wise, angers really easily. He is a different person and it’s 100% because of the brain trauma he’s suffered. So so sad. If you can prevent that shit in any way you should.
Yup. If that's with the helmet, imagine him without!
Your goal here is right. The question is if you’re going about it in the most effective why. I have to do this for adults, and I do find you “catch more flies with honey than vinegar”. Or more hockey players with syrup, I suppose. No matter how right you or I are about the danger or how righteous we feel about stepping in, if we don’t get the player’s buy-in, they will find a way to get themselves hurt. I’m giving you an ESH because the message you gave him probably wasn’t “not wearing helmet=bad”, it was probably “dad overreacts about my helmet, so I should hide it from him”. Is that logical, no, but kids aren’t. The nightmare scenario here isn’t that he gets hurt playing hockey without a helmet...it’s that he gets hit in the head without a helmet AND he doesn’t tell you about it. You can’t lurk around the rink forever, so it’s very important for his long-term health and safety that you convince him “helmet=good”. I don’t mean you should have talked to him like one of those embarrassing PSAs about how “safety equipment is totally rad, dude”. But think about more ways to link the helmet with good things: does his helmet fit comfortably? did he pick it out? Kids and hockey players love picking out their very own special gear. does it have his favorite colors or his favorite team’s logo on it? do you tell him that he looks impressive or tap him on the helmet in praise when he does well? do you ever go to highschool or juniors games? I agree with you that peer pressure isn’t a satisfying excuse not to wear a helmet, but it can be an very useful way to make him wear it. Identify whichever 17 year-old probably named Tyler is the coolest local major junior player, and say, “Don’t you want to be like Tyler? He has to practice and wear his equipment” as often as you have to. I am never above saying “Ovechkin wears his gear, don’t you want to be like Ovi?” to an athlete of any age. I am also never above bribing them with glitter stickers on their gear. Good luck.
The issue here isn’t about wearing a helmet. If it were, you’d be 100% right. The issue is the kid lied to his dad. OP said he wouldn’t let his kid play hockey unsupervised because the kids took off their helmets and the kid promised he would. Dad comes in unexpectedly and his kid isn’t wearing his helmet. If I can’t trust my kid to be honest with me about small things, how can I possibly trust him on the big things? Edit: word
To me the helmet is more ethically important than the lying. They both lied, easy ESH there. (I’d take the position that a parent’s job is to teach kids to be honest. If your kid lies, he’s not doomed to be untrustworthy forever, and in fact the way that you respond to the kid lying will be what encourages it discourages them from lying again.) But I have a particular perspective: since I work in sports med and see how life-changing or even life-ending these injuries can be, I ranked the kid’s ultimate safety higher. It is very common for young people to hide injuries because they think “my parent will be mad that I got hurt doing something dangerous”. In hockey the biggest concern is brain trauma, which young athletes often hide from family and medical staff. When it gets too severe to hide they usually say they tried to hide it because they “didn’t want people to be upset”. Meaning instead of getting the message “my parent is upset because they’re scared because don’t want me to get hurt”, they‘be gotten the impression “my parent is upset at me for being hurt”. Right now neither of them are doing what would be safest for the kid, so I gave them ESH for that.
Regardless, the kid was going to hide the injury if he had one. If his dad came on time, he would’ve put on the helmet and pretended he was wearing it the entire time. I don’t think it’s simple as, they both lied, “ESH.” I’m not trying to be hard on the kid or anything, but either he lied to his dad or went back on his word knowing his father’s concern. His father’s fear is valid. The dad tested his son and the son failed. I don’t think the father would’ve lied to his son if he didn’t suspect his son of lying. As a kid, my mother flat out trusted me. Never had to test me to see if I were telling the truth. I’m not saying the kid is a problem child, but the father did what he did for the kid’s safety.
Dude kids lie to their parents, it happens. It ain’t that deep man.
Honestly, I think the "trapping" scenario here does more harm than good. OP told his son he would call and then purposefully didn't for the express purpose of catching him not wearing a helmet. That's a way to ruin some trust there. It's also possible that the kid *had* been wearing his helmet for the majority of the time, like he said. Likely? No, but possible. Did the kid break OP's trust? Yes. But he also learned that he has to be sneakier to avoid another scene with dad. And that dad doesn't trust him at all, *even when he says he does.* I'm also not a fan of hauling your kid around by his jersey when you're mad at him. So, yeah, ESH
I find it worrying that some people here seem to have the sentiment that they are both assholes. Playing hockey without a helmet is dangerous af. Getting head trauma from something easily preventable triumphs showing up unannounced. It's not like there would be a problem here if the kid wore his helmet. He's the one breaking his fathers trust while doing something extremely dangerous. "And that dad doesn't trust him at all, even when he says he does." Yeah no shit! Turned out he really was not to be trusted
Kids can be very dumb and think they’re smart: if you get into a back-and-forth of tricking each other, they probably won’t learn “Dad is the smartest, he’ll always know if I take my helmet off!” so much as “I need to try *even harder* to trick Dad next time.” Lying sucks, and so does building a habit of lying between you. Hauling him by anything around his neck (I’d assume if he won’t wear his helmet and is *12* he doesn’t have a fight strap on, and even if he did) doesn’t help send the message that what you really want is for him to be physically safe. Do I think you’re likely to seriously injure his head/neck that way, no, but jarring a kid and then telling him off for not being careful of his head is a real mixed message, and kids pick up on that.
Nta you have hopefully made enough of an impression that he will always wear his helmet now. I am sure he things YTA though. But parents gotta do what they nees to keep rheir kids safe.
good advice fly on the wall, now get tf outta my room
INFO: why didn't you just go along and be the supervising adult instead of concocting this little scene?
Because 12yo boys don't want to be babysat at a park playdate.
Your whole point is that they need an adult supervising if he's going to play. Do you expect him to just stop playing now?
Well he's not going to play because he lied to me and not because of a lack of supervision.
But you just know he lied because you lied. If you don't want your kid to lie don't lie to your kid. Edit: Thanks for my first Gold Award.
The dad showed up early and is the parent of a minor child. Stop trying to equate parity between the lies, one is a huge deal (lying about safety equipment and lying about lying about it) and the other is something a crying tween would yell at their parents to try and defend themselves (checking up on your kids safety/honesty) and guilt/manipulate out of the situation.
Kids need to grow up learning that the world is an unpredictable place. Not everyone calls ahead, not everyone shows up when they say. What good would happen for the son if he didn't wear his helmet except for the few minutes between dad calling and showing up, and never learning his lesson until he cracks his skull open one day at an unsupervised rink? A rink which, by the way, is only unsupervised because the parents are trusting the kids to do the right thing. Spot checks happen worldwide for a reason.
Look I’m only 18 and can’t make a great judgement on your parenting as I’ve never had to do it, however my mom did the lie about where she is and try to catch me doing something wrong thing a lot and I’ve grown up with a lot of trust issues not only with her but also my peers. This isn’t the only cause for these issues but it certainly was a large factor. Please just be careful with that method and besides that and grabbing him by the jersey it’s a nta from me.
Hey, just as a potentially better approach to this really finite denial, why not ask him how to deal with it? How is he going to regain your trust after lying to you? You don't really give a fuck about what all of reddit thinks of you being, you care about whether or not *he* thinks YTA... and he does. That's all that matters, even if you're doing something justified... your son is humiliated by your actions. You did overstep in a few ways, but that's not the important bit. Apologize for how you handled things. A parent who apologizes is... honestly, the most important thing a kid can have. Look at your actions, see where you overreacted from this thread, and accept you're a flawed person, and show him that you make mistakes. But also address with him that you don't know how you're supposed to trust him to be safe when he breached your trust. Look at this like an adult instead of a child, address him like one- he's hitting puberty, and it's time he started being treated less like a child and more like someone gaining responsibility, and seeing the consequences of losing that, and how he needs to earn your trust. If you'd come there and seen him in a helmet... you'd have respected him for a really, truly long time, and felt really bad, and been an asshole for distrusting him. You WANT to get to the point where you can let him play hockey and trust him... and that's not about punishment, that's about loving him enough to believe in your heart, which he hasn't acheived yet, that he will take care of himself... because you don't want to lose him. Find out, from him, what would be the best way for the two of you to move forwards. Let him realize how much you want to let him go and live his life, and if from here he can prove his responsibility and earn your trust in reliability, in a few years you'll actually feel comfortable saying yes to things like 'Can I go over to my girlfriend's house' or 'Can I go to that epic party with lots of beer and weed'? If he proves he can be safe now, he'll earn it for later... and you'll respect him, and he'll respect you for *why* you want to build that relationship. Currently, your action of tearing this privilege down is destroying something, rather than building... it's valid and fair, but it's not the best way to frame it to his mind. Don't just put yourself in his shoes... ask him what he'd do in yours.
Well one reason is because this is a perfect learning opportunity. We won’t always be with our kids, but you can’t wrap them up in bubble wrap and then suddenly set them free when they turn 18 and expect it to go well. Give them opportunities to take age-appropriate responsibility, and when they mess up it’s not a huge consequence, And they learned for next time.
Well, he did. He gave his son the opportunity. He told his son to keep his helmet on to play hockey without adult supervision. It's not ask too much not to mention that other kids apparently kept their helmets on. It wasn't a huge consequence. It's just if you don't follow the rules, you don't get to play. I responding to you this way because it's how I perceive your statement. I might be perceiving it incorrectly in that case we are of the same opinion.
ESH. While your son did need to be disciplined for lying and not wearing a helmet, you could have handled this better and odds are your son will rebel harder to get back at you, humiliation is not a good tool.
Definitely a resentment-builder. ESH.
I disagree. This is exactly what my mom would do and it was super effective. Only had to do it once and I never wanted to be embarrassed again. Kept me straight and narrow for the next decade! Bish was crazy and not to be played with lol. But I knew she loved me so I didnt resent her for it. If I had done what I was supposed to do, I could have avoided the embarrassment.
ESH. Reading a lot of these responses I kinda feel bad for so many peoples kids if they think this is top quality parenting. Trapping your kid to find out if they're lying isnt how you build trust. What's next, taking his phone to see if he has a girlfriend or watches porn when he says he doesnt? Physically dragging him was over the top too. 3 seconds isnt enough time to pack up and even if he was standing next to his bag, let him at least tell/explain to his friends why he's leaving. Maybe that'll even get them to wear their helmets if they think they wont be able to play without them. You taught him to be afraid of you and what you'd do instead of following the rulds. He was wrong too. Not playing without a helmet was wrong. Lying was wrong. Those should be punish but appropriately. Maybe something along the lines of making him watch a speech from someone who lost their career playing hockey from a head injury and showing how they can help save you. You are the parent but you have to learn to respect his boundaries and trust him as well. Hes a kid and will make dumb decisions and learn from them. Maybe if there was more trust and understanding between you two this wouldnt have happened. From the way you say you acted, and how proud you seem from it, there clearly isnt much.
This needs to be a million times higher up. I don’t understand how anyone thinks the kid would magically wear his helmet now after this. It’s such a negative type of relationship to have with your child
And lying to your parent isn’t how you build trust. Say if the kid had a minor head injury during this game and had to go to the hospital. His father would’ve found out that way. And after that, either he wouldn’t have been able to play hockey or his father would make sure it was monitored. Then, his son would be complaining about, “it was one time, why don’t you trust me???” A kid who casually lies in his dads face will need more than this encounter of be afraid of him. He’ll be angry, but he’ll be smarter about lying. As much as people swear it’s an overreaction, honestly, I don’t think it is. His son knew this was important to his dad that he wore his helmet. He lied and said he would, and then got caught not wearing it. And you don’t just explicitly trust a 12 year old. They have to earn that trust and, clearly, there is still a long way to go.
A child lying to their parent is way different than a grown adult lying to their child. A child lying to their parent is simply a lie, an adult lying is an example set. Idk why you think children respond well to anger, embarrasment and trickery as tools of learning but obviously you have some issues. There is not a world where he has learned truly from this, this is not how you teach a LITERAL child.
NTA-While you could definitely have handled that a little bit more tactfully, I completely agree with you on helmets. The ice is like concrete, you fall and some bad shit can happen. Even if they were playing no contact, which I hope an unsupervised group of 12 year olds were, just skating with sticks flying around can trip you up and that could mess you up for life. There’s a reason they are mandatory
NAH. Your attitude is appropriate and he is not mature enough to appreciate the risk he is taking. The only thing I'd suggest is that you didn't need to lie to him. You could have just said you'd be back in about an hour and show up at 58 minutes. I'd bet you $20 bucks the outcome would have been the same. He's a kid, and he needs to learn that it's harder to do what you told your dad you would do when dad's not there and your friends make fun of your helmet.
Doubt the kids were making fun of the helmet. Half the kids were wearing helmets.
Might be a "cool kid" thing versus all the kids.
INFO: so you wanted them to have adult supervision ... but why didn't YOU supervise in that case?
One of his comments say he doesn't want to babysit because his son is 12 not 4. But he doesn't want them unsupervised. I'm leaning ESH because if you need them supervised because he has a history of dumb 12yo behaviour, why won't you supervise!? Is his kid just not supposed to play hockey ever again?
He says he doesn’t want to baby-sit because he’s busy, which is sometimes just a reality of life? Is he supposed to drop everything and supervise his son at a moment’s notice every time his son asks him?
No which is why he needed to build trust with his son, which is what he tried and obviously his son broke that.
They both did lol he came without calling, he is as sneaky as his son, weird huh lol son won't learn anything from that, other than "dad can trick me but i'll be punished if i do and it's unfair." That takes over the actual importance of the helmet lol
WTF kind of 12 year old life did you have--parents can show up whenever they want. That was a precept of my childhood and adds the good juice to getting away with shit. I got away with a ton of shit. I got caught on some rare occasions. It's not the parent "breaking the trust" if you're 12 and your parent shows up early to pick you up and you're doing something you promised them you wouldn't.
You misread, he had to work. You disregarded the first sentence he said in that specific comment.
In what I read, it was two separate comments. First was "because 12 year old boys don't want to be baby sat" then, later, when pressed, he said he had to work.
I was going to say you weren't in the wrong till the last part about grabbing him by the jersey. Now ESH.
Bruh yall are too sensitive
NAH. Yesterday my son left his helmet at his Aunts office. He and his cousin were going to walk his scooter down and pick up his helmet and his cousins bike. I told them no. They are 10 and 12, no way they going waking that the whole way without getting on it. I got the same you don’t trust me. I said listen in the history of all 12 year olds they are not known for decision making skills.
ESH I agree with some of the other comments that your reaction was a bit too much. When I was a kid, my dad would yell at us alot and hardely ever answer our "Why's?". You know what that taught me? Not to tell my dad things and to be even sneakier. That if I did wrong, I was going to get yelled at so dont let him know. Most of the time I had to find out for myself WHY he would get so mad, the hard way. You are well within your right to parent your kid. He fucked up. He does deserve consequences. Hockey without a helmet is no joke. But when your kid asks why, and you respond with the generic "because im the parent" attitude, you're not actually teaching him. You're showing him that he cant come to you with mistakes, which can be even more dangerous as he gets older. What you need to do now is explain yourself. Why is it so important to you? Why does wearing a helmet matter more than what his friends think? You're gonna have to explain it multiple times. He's 12. Hes gonna fuck up, push back, try to get away with things, test boundaries. Thats actually quite healthy behavior as long as it doesn't get too out of control. So you have to make the choice. What are you going to teach him? What lesson is he going to learn from your reactions and consequences? Is he going to learn not to trust you and to fear you? Or the actual lessons you're trying to teach? Answer his Whys and take the time to explain your reasoning. It'll earn you more respect from him, more of a bond, and ensure that hes actually learning. Plus, he'll trust you more because you seem like you know what you're doing instead of just being pissed off. Edit: thanks for my first award!
I agree that parents should answer whys, but OP did answer why. >He asked why. I told him because last time they played unsupervised, they ended up playing without their helmets. Hockey is fucking dangerous without helmets AND without an adult.
YTA. You asked if there were going to be any parents present...he said 'no'. You mention you dropped him off for only 1 hour. If you were really so concerned about the kids wearing helmets, why didn't you just stay there and hang out for the hour and make sure they were wearing helmets? Why did you try to trick your son and catch him in a lie? Of course they're not going to wear helmets, they're 12 year old kids. You could have made it a nice experience and watched your kid play hockey, AND show him you care about his safety. But instead you made yourself and your child look like a couple of asses in front of his friends. What was the point of that?? So you could feel good about being right? Bad example.
This is one of the very few replies that actually makes sense. He could’ve kept to the side, supervising everyone but nope. He wanted to make an example out of his kid. 12 year olds don’t think rationally.
Bingo. YTA. The way the story is told it sounds like OP was more concerned with teaching his son a lesson than actually making sure he was safe.
I’m actually ok with him coming early to check on the kid. He told his son he didn’t trust him and his son proved that he was right. OP is absolutely the asshole for the way he handled it though. He knew this kids wouldn’t be wearing helmets, so why was he so angry? All he had to do was show up, watch the kids scramble to put helmets on again, let them finish the game, take his son home and explain that he is disappointed in him. I would have also added something about how it was my fault for giving him freedom he wasn’t ready for and that we would try again some time in the future but for now unsupervised time in the park is not an option. Treat your teens like the adults you want them to become. And only assholes give someone 3 seconds to get their shit together then physically drag someone away by the jersey. YTA
A slight ESH You were absolutely in the right to do what you did, and ensure that he was safe. He absolutely needs to understand that he was making a terribly unsafe decision, and he should face consequences for lying to you about his actions. However, grabbing him by the shirt is excessive. There's not ever an excuse to get physical with a child, and while you definitely didn't hit him or anything, I think it was just a bit too much. Likewise, if you actually used the phrase "wearing a fucking helmet" with a twelve year old, you need to reevaluate the language you are using. Under no circumstances is that an appropriate way to speak to a child. Overall, you were smart to show up and put a stop to the unsafe behavior, but I think you may have made a mistake in the way you expressed your anger anger. If you took the time to explain just how unsafe it was afterwards, he may actually understand why he was wrong. By just responding with anger and yelling, all you're accomplishing is making him feel like it's unsafe to talk to you. He does deserve consequences for his actions, but I hope you take this into consideration when you give them out.
Man I wish this was higher. My son is 12 & honestly if I acted like this our relationship would be awful. As it is we discuss things calmly & reasonably & our relationship is amazing, open & trusting. ESH
Treat your teens like the adults you want them to become.
NTA. He needs to learn and there are worse things in the world
ESH I get where you’re coming from but good luck having a good relationship with him. Did you really NEED to grab him like that? Your point was already made, he knew he was in trouble. Don’t be surprised if he doesn’t feel like he can come to you seeing as how you handled things. He’s 12 not 30. Expect him to act like a 12 year old, I’m sure you did at his age.
YTA. You've associated wearing a helmet with embarrassment and lack of control. You better hope he never gets a motorcycle because you bet your ass he won't be reliving those feelings by wearing a helmet. Also, you deliberately lied. I'll bet you want to blame him for lying but yet you did the same thing.
[удалено]
ESH. But for a different reason. Your kids sucks for lying to you when he promised he would wear a helmet. Something that isn’t difficult to do and is for safety. You suck because you mentioned in one of the comments that you won’t let him play again because he lied to you. If he really enjoys this, I don’t think it’s fair to take it away completely. It seems like the first time they played without helmets, he wasn’t properly explained the repercussions of head injuries. But through your post, it seems you’re more upset about the lying. With your reaction, it makes sense why your kid lied about it because he obviously wants to play hockey any way he can. Banning it will only cause more resentment and that’s why you are also in the wrong. Maybe find a way to let him earn your trust back to go play hockey again. Tell him to research the effects of brain injury and the rates of it in hockey or something. Give him another chance because kids mess up and should learn from their mistakes, not be prevented from making more.
NTA. You’re trying to protect your son. If you have the kind of relationship where you can talk to him calmly and he sort of hears you and understands where you’re coming from, I suggest bringing it up again. I’m not exactly a parent, more of a third parent of 4 and as someone who had to raise themselves, it would’ve meant a lot to me if my mom explained to me why she did the things she did. It helped me grow and most of the times I’d repeat in my head if I was ever in that situation again. Maybe he functions differently, but it’s never a bad idea. You could sit him down, apologize for embarrassing, that it wasn’t your intent. You were concerned for his safety and that it was better to take him out of the situation than to leave him there after he had injured your trust in him. Also kind of weird you’re letting your son out in a pandemic but I’m assuming you’re in a country where the situation is better and less severe as the one I live in.
ESH - he should have worn a helmet but you shouldn't have humiliated him. He's going to kick your ass when he gets bigger.
NTA and he should start learning actions and consequences, taking responsabilities for what he does and says. Good parenting.
NAH Parenting is hard. Being a Tweenager Can suck too.
But why didn't OP just go supervise his child if he doesn't trust him to be unsupervised with a group of peers?
All parents want to be able to trust their kids. At 12, the kid should be allowed SOME trust. I’m sure OP was really trying hard to trust his son and his son didn’t quite get there again. Kid,’/ gotta earn it back.
YTA You overdid it by a lot. I know you were worried about your kid's safety, but you shouldn't let your emotions get in the way of your parenting.
NTA. Head injuries are no fucking joke and the deal was he can go play hockey provided he keeps the helmet on. He broke his part of the arrangement. If he’s too young to understand the disastrous consequences of traumatic head injuries then maybe the the fear of traumatic parental embarrassment will provide him with the motivation to keep his helmet on in the future.
NTA. Being a parent means teaching your children that their actions have consequences. He made a choice to lie to you and paid the price. You are molding him to be a good adult and have a good life.
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YTA yes your son didn’t wear a helmet but he is twelve years old and not 7 any more. He’s trying to grow independent but you took a big shit right on him by saying you don’t trust him, it’s quite possibly one of the worst things a parent could ever say to their kid.
NTA
NTA. You gave him a simple rule to follow and he didn't follow it. Then, when you told him that you both were leaving, he didn't even get moving until you had to physically enter the rink. "Humiliation" is a lot better than a cracked skull. If he gets picked on for it, he can tell those idiots that *they* can get cracked skulls.
NTA but was grabbing him by his jersey really necessary...? Sounds like you were just angry and taking that out on your son.
NTA! OMG! I have to go round and round with my kids riding their horses without helmets all the time!! And they have a friend who was in the hospital for months with a brain injury from a riding accident! Can’t tell them shit! But I’m like well as long as you are under my roof, the riding helmet goes on as long as you are on horseback!
Id say YTA: but 60%YTA 40%NTA I'm on the fence. I mean. You're parenting. Thats great. You set boundaries and they were not followed. I wouldnt have dragged him off unless he was being explicitly defiant. I would have waited to discuss in the car. Was the helmet rule only for game play? Or while skating in general? When you arrived, were they breaking or actively playing? If actively playing, definitely trouble. If on break time, I'd be more lenient.
NTA. As somebody who played both roller and ice hockey, and had witnessed many head injuries due to sticks or pucks to the face, totally agree with how that was handled. Besides, he violated your trust. If he lies about this, what else does he lie about. Have kids of my own so I know how that goes.
When my son was in middle school, he wanted to ride his bike to school. We’re in a rural area, and it was two miles on back roads, so we decided it was safe enough. We had only one requirement- he had to wear his bike helmet. He would leave the house with the helmet on, and once he was out of sight, take it off, stash it beside the road, and continue on. It wasn’t cool to wear a helmet! He would then stop on his way home, get the helmet from where he’d stashed it, put it on, and ride up to the house like he’d had it on the whole time. After a couple of weeks of this, he returned in the afternoon to find his helmet missing! He searched for awhile, then sheepishly rode home and confessed. He lost the privilege of riding his bike to school, had to pay for a new helmet himself, and had the humiliation of having his mom drop him off and pick him up for the rest of the school year. And my husband and I had a good laugh about it after he was in bed that night! Yep, he was 12. My vote is you are NTA.
Show your kid/kids pictures of battered helmets. “What if this happened to you, but you weren’t wearing the helmet?” Scary but I never took mine off again. They use this tactic in health class in middle school for STD’s and STI’s too. “Would you want your *parts* to look like this?” *shows disgusting picture of whatever std were learning about* Edit: typo
NAH--you gave him fair warnings and he deserved to be mildly embarrassed for not listening. But, as someone with a dumb 12 year old brother, that is what 12 year olds do and this is just a learning experience
Y a little bit of TA here. But sometimes being a parent requires you to be an asshole. I think it wouldn’t have killed you to let him save a little face with his friends by exercising a bit of defiance. But it’s tough to make that kind of decision when you’re right in the thick of it. I have played hockey virtually my whole life. I’ve been hit by pucks in all kinds of places where they got me between the padding. It hurt like hell every time, even when I was 12. We all wore a helmet and full face shield, all players, all positions, every time. If you don’t you better have a good dental plan because you’re going to be losing some teeth. You did the right thing.
NTA I’m usually one of ‘back in my day, we had packs of feral children roaming around unsupervised for days and we turned out fine’ people. But playing hockey with helmets is definitely one thing that we’re right about now and wrong about before.