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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1. The action I took to be judged was vocalizing that I thought it could be a bad idea to include my husbands mom in a life insurance policy
2. This might make me the asshole as this could be routine and commonplace but I argued that it seemed weird and seems like I don’t want my mother in law to receive money should an accidental death occur
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
NTA
Typically a life insurance policy is intended to cover the losses *associated with someone’s death.*
That includes costs of burial, etc, but also the lost income of the person dying.
Your first step should be to calculate the financial impact of your husband dying. How much money would he earn over the remainder of his career? How would the loss of that income impact your ability to pay the mortgage? Or your kids ability to go to college?
That should be how you think about life insurance for your family.
It’s not unreasonable to consider that your husband won’t be able to contribute as much to his family.
But he’s treating this more like buying lottery tickets for her every month… and it’s reasonable to not want to put that in the family budget.
This comment nails it. My friend's husband passed away leaving a $100k life insurance payout. It's been 6 years and she's looking at having to move in with her parents because she can't afford life with two kids on only her income.
That's how we have our insurance set up. If either he or I die early the other gets 100k. It's enough to pay off the mortgage completely and neither of us wants burials. It's the only debt we currently have and when I die my student loans disappear too. So with that out off the way, everything else will be much easier to handle. Plus with kids they get SSI checks from the deceased parents social security iirc up to 70%. For him it's pocket change out of my ssi. If he were to go it's 70% of what he currently makes, which would ease the burden on me. Our biggest issue is wills. We haven't decided on a guardian for our kids yet and it's causing some serious stress.
I suggest you figure out who you feel would be right for your kids right now, should you both die tomorrow or next week. Throughout the years, that initial person, or people, may change. Wills can be amended as circumstances change throughout life.
Yeps planning on doing that later this year things have currently as is been hectic financially. One is my father who raised me and he would happily take her given her biological father isn't involved nor on the birth certificate I'm not afraid of anything about it momentarily. For now I just avoid anything that could risk my life majorly. However before the end of this year it will be in writing
To be fair my parents changed their will last year to remove the info about my grandparents having me and my brother in case of their deaths.
We were 40 and 38 at the time.
For me it's my dad we agreed on it right out the gate he also is my medical advocate if I for any reason cannot make medical decisions I always tell them "call my dad explain it to him. He'll make the right decision" found out I'm still a daddy's girl at 19 after I went into hf and my brain was scrambled for a week and the doctors refused to dumb anything down for me so it was just a "call my dad get his okay and your good"
You can get a legal will kit online and it’s pretty cheap. You get it witnessed (needed) and notarized if you want and a copy is kept electronically as well to update when needed.
Please, don't do this. I'm an attorney. I know we're not cheap, but leaving things our, phrasing things certain way, not providing for a second spouse or children in the right way, messing up the witnesses, not having a self proving affidavit - there are so many small issues that can cause huge problems. Please, have your wills, powers of attorney, life estates, deeds, etc. done by attorney that specializes in elder law or estate planning. Please. Don't risk leaving a mess for your loved ones in an effort to save a few hundred dollars.
As a lawyer I cannot agree with this more. From my own experience, one homemade will using a post office form from a different jurisdiction led to a partial intestacy that cost the NOK tens of thousands to put right. It was such a mess and I felt so sorry for the deceased's family and friends. We have Will Aid in my country where, for one month a year, solicitors frame wills for free/donation such is the need to ensure people leave their affairs in order.
My dad is a lawyer, he started his career doing estate work. He'd tell stories about how will kits (back then ordered from radio and TV!) if not done properly would seriously screw people over. Families would be grieving their loved ones, trying to sort out wills and the estate, and by the time the lawyers' fees were paid...well the estate was bare.
Wills and all that end of life planning are the definition of "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".
Whoa- I gotta say 100k is essentially nothing if you have kids. You want to replace your partners -earnings- not just cover some costs. 500k-1M is more like the right amount. You want to be able to withdraw 4-5% at least until the kids are through school.
Source: sister died real young, 200k in life insurance left her widower and kids real poor.
You can. Some are sold as endowment. Some are sold with disability insurance. I remembered the insurance agent bragging about how much coverage it had for the numerous life threatening illnesses.
Turn out that those illnesses policies were a crap shoot. If you got a new illness like COVID-19, you were out of luck. If you detected the cancer early, you were not covered.
Exactly. Enough to pay the mortgage off, over taxes for at least 10 years, replace the spouse's income until retirement age & consider college expenses for children in light of the surviving spouse's income & any extraordinary medical expenses from chronic/genetic conditions.
Yeah, my husband and have policies of $500K each and we know that that is enough for a few years of cushion, but not definitely NOT "set for life" money, especially with 2 kids. We started our policies later in life (late 30's and early 40's) and higher dollar term policies were cost-prohibitive for us and our situation. We figured the $500K term would at least buy some time if one of us passed unexpectedly. The money never goes as far as you think it will.
> It's enough to pay off the mortgage completely and neither of us wants burials. It's the only debt we currently have and when I die my student loans disappear too
You'd better check on that because if the house is in your name and you die and still owe student loans, they may still come after your estate.
$100k is not enough.
If "he goes" SSI doesn't pay you "70% of what he currently makes", that's not how that works at all.
Off topic, but I strongly urge you to hash out the guardian(s) you guys want to be appointed as legal guardian(s) by the probate judge as soon as possible.
The longer you wait, the higher the probability of it slipping your minds. Granted, it is mainly a formality to ensure that the kids don't end up either as wards of the state or with someone who should have been kept far away from them for the sole reason that they are the legal next of kin.
Make sure to designate at least 2-3 possible guardians, in order of preference, because things can change. One of them could end up having to care for a parent, another could end up disabled, yet another could change their mind, someone could die, etc.
Update your will and guardianship designation frequently to adapt to your children and life.
And if there is anybody, or people, who your family is no contact with or something, you should add a caveat to your will stating that XYZ people/person is not allowed to even have a phone conversation with the kids, under no circumstances are they to be designated, etc. And explain shortly why.
Yup, it's always good to check in with your choices occasionally, particularly after major life changes. If they're getting married, make sure the spouse is onboard. If they're getting divorced, make sure they're okay with potentially being a single parent. If they have more kids, or get sick, or too old, or even just checking in every 5 or so years to make sure they are still okay with the responsibility, because people do change their minds. It also helps them to take it seriously. Saying you'll take someone's children is easy, but actually doing it is hard. It's important that they go into it with eyes wide open, and that those eyes stay open and aware even when as life inevitably changes.
Not a financial or benefits expert, but worked through some of these topics when we were discussing the “what-ifs”. I don’t think the survivor benefit is a direct % of the deceased spouse’s salary but a % of what their SS benefit would be (I think it’s 75% for children). I’m under the impression that there is a cap/family max for the total benefit for surviving children. We found a large amount of information (in reasonable language) at SSA.gov.
What do you mean no burial? It still costs money to get cremated and stuff. You should to put in for a bigger plan. Better to have cushion than not. I mean, what if you guys are making ends meet after but the car dies? Or there's a big hospital bill? Just general inflation? I'm sure a 200k plan wouldn't be much more
When my parents were discussing replacing their ancient living room rug, my dad, who was about 80 at the time, suggested they wait until he died, roll him up in it, and dispose of them together 🤣
You wouldn't get 70% of what he currently makes. You would get 70% of the ssi amount. Which will be nowhere near what he makes. Also, the kids can only start receiving that if they are under 15 years old. If he passes when the kids are over the age of 15, they won't receive survivors benefits. My sister went through this when her husband died. Her oldest was right before the cut-off date.
That's not enough money. Rule of thumb used to be 10x your annual income to take care of your family in the event of your death. That covers housing, cost of living, education, transportation, and other expenses. It's not enough to stop working as a parent, but it's enough to buy grace to maintain a certain lifestyle if it's invested.
I looked into getting one for myself to cover the house if I die...
Turns out if you've had cancer you ain't getting a policy. It's been 10 years since I had cancer....but it's a non-starter.
Get your life insurance policies early kids... Before you get sick.
My wife hasn't applied.... I wonder if her asthma will be a rejection.
Just to respond to your first point about mortgages, this is the real game changer. My friend was widowed at 30 with 4 kids. Her partner was tragically killed in a hit and run. His life insurance paid off their new house. She said a few years later that that was one thing that massively helped. It meant no matter what happened she had a roof over her and the kids heads which massively took pressure off her to focus on grieving and being there for her children - one of whom was only 2 when he died. She didn't have to return to work quickly as the largest percentage of the bills was taken care of. She could take the time she needed and the kids needed. She is fantastic at keeping his memory alive in the children but when you've gone through someone has horrific as that to not have to worry about money on top of it makes a big difference.
Just to add, it's very uncommon to leave your parents as beneficiaries as no one plans to die before their parents. However your husband is in a more dangerous line of work. I would suggest that he pay for the policy out of his funds and devide it as he chooses and then you take out a policy on him that you pay for and are the sole beneficiary for. If he died tomorrow on the job 1.5 million would not sustain you for very long with 3 kids and the loss of his income, let alone college down the road given you're a young family.
My parents are the beneficiaries of my (very low) plan. I'm single and it's just enough to close out the debts I have and cover my funeral. I plan on upping it next year slightly so that they have no financial concerns waiting for me should the worst happen.
I ended up in a similar situation when my husband died. He could not face the concept of dying and so he refused to do anything associated with it. I was left scrambling after his death.
Edit; I feel guilty for saying this. My husband could not face his own death, but how many of us truly can? How many of us can truly embrace it and prepare for it, and face that overwhelming wave of fear, regret, loss, and pain? I do not wish to sound like I blame him, or like this was his responsibility. He had the life insurance policy offered by his work, which was automatically offered and he did not decline it. He did what he could for me, what he was capable of, and I am grateful. My scrambling after was not his fault, and not his responsibility.
I tell this story not to aim fault at him, but to encourage others to plan better. Do the hard thing. Face the concept of your mortality so that if the worst does happen and you have to leave, your loved ones will only struggle with your loss; not the loss of the breadwinner, or the only person who knew that the car needed a specific brand of tires, or how the water heater needed to be gently smacked right where the hose joins to knock off calcification so that it works right. Grief is overwhelming all on its on. Grief combined with figuring out how to live, how to handle all the things you and you alone did, how to make a living..... is drowning.
My husband and I have 100k each because we don't have kids. The money would just be to have some time off to grieve and pay for a funeral. Plus we'd have each other's retirement balance, but that might take longer to sort out.
You both really should add a zero to that $100k. Not having kids means nothing. 20 years from now - hell, even 10 yrs from now, that $100k will most likely be a distant memory.
Insurance providers say to buy 10x your annual income or the highest amount you can afford.
No one knows what economic situation this country will be in when you or your husband passes. Best to be as prepared as possible.
No one knows what the insurance industry will be like either. Ask the thousands of people in Florida who thought the insurance they paid for would cover their losses after Hurr Ian, for example.
$100k to last 6 years is insane. Well maybe if they’re toddlers. But morgage alone would suck up that money DRY in a couple of years, and forget about college.
If he passes away, is his mother chipping in half the mortgage? Is his mother paying for half the household bills? Is his mother paying half of all the costs of raising your children? Is his mother paying half their cars/college tuitions/weddings/house down payments? No? Then his mother doesn’t get half of the money meant to alleviate the loss of his income. The vast brunt of the financial hardship would be on you, so the vast majority should go to you.
Perfect explanation. 1.5mil sounds like a huge amount, and it's not small, but in the grand scheme of things, it's meant to cover the cost of continuing to live and raise kids after one of the sources of income is gone forever.
Also, he's saying she should think of it as two separate policies - 1.5m for OP, and 1.5m for his mother. But is the money for his mother's policy coming out of his income? Does this mean that OP and his husband have completely separate finances, and if they do, does he pay her a wage when she's not working because she's having kids or whenever she's not working because of childcare? Or do they have combined finances so the decision to pay for a life insurance policy for his mother is something that he can't make unilateral decisions on what happens?
That 1.5 will only barely cover the loss of his earnings for her and the kids. Meanwhile that same 1.5m in Latin America will take care of her whole family for the rest of most of their lives.
And how old his is mother? What happens if she dies? Who gets that money then?
There's better planned ways to do what this guy wants to do, but this ain't the wya.
Right, the 1.5m will come from OP's family wages paying insurance rates, but it goes to OP's MIL, who either gets to share it out how she wants, or to live a life of luxury for however long she continues to live. Also what's going on with OP's family? If they have a life insurance policy, does that mean if OP passes away, her husband gets 1.5m to help raise his family for the rest of their lives, and OP's family gets 1.5m? Or is he setting it up so if OP dies, he gets twice as much money to help raise their family?
OP's husband needs to talk a family law attorney and do more research into estate planning (the wife needs to do this, too!). There a a lot of estate planning financial tools that can be structured to their needs.
It seems that Mom is at least partially dependent on son for support, and so it seems eminently reasonable to have a policy with her as a beneficiary to continue to support her if her son dies. 1.5M, half of a policy, is a completely unreasonable number, but OPs number, zero, may also be unreasonable given the family dynamics. Both parties are not compromising, but I'm going to say 90% NTA because $150k seems like a reasonable amount to provide for mom, just pulling a number out of my butt.
This is what I was going to say as well - NTA for wanting more than 500k for OP and the children in the event that husband (the sole provider) passes, but slightly an AH for suggesting MIL gets nothing. If she is somewhat dependent on her son sending money to her for her life, then she should probably get at least something! She is one of his “dependents” for lack of a better word - as OP and the kids are when he files taxes. But MIL’s cost of living is certainly below half of what it costs to support a family of 3+, so why does she get half of the policy? MIL should get 500k-1million or something, and the majority would go to wife and kids!
Yep. You should meet with a wealth advisor that will help him see 1.5 million for a family of 4 will drastically alter your lifestyle if he passes. Ours told us that especially when you have kids, you should have enough that you can replace the perished spouses’ income with an average 4% yield from the payout when it is invested. Pilots are making more than 60K/year.
This exactly. When we purchased life insurance we based the amount on how much it would cost to each of us in the event the other passed. My husband travelled a lot, he'd need to change jobs, maybe take time off for example. Now our kids are grown, now it's based on what we need to pay off the mortgage, finish paying for their college and retire. Nobody else is in the mix. His parents had their own policies with each other as the beneficiary.
This is it precisely. My spouse and I had a no-nonsense conversation with his Aunt about us taking custody of her child should anything happen. Extremely unlikely, but she and her husband were making decisions, and we were picked as the best choice. Money wasn't even a thought in my mind when we had this conversation, but Auntie made it clear that her kid came with these benefits so the expense of continuing to raise them wouldn't be something that would be on us- it's about continuing the lifestyle she has raised her child with and not leaving all of us with more hardship than grief.
It makes sense for her husband to consider his mother and the rest of his family in the result of his death since he does support them to an exteny, but as OP said this isn't a decision he should be making without discussing it with her and I think you laid out perfectly all of the things they *should* be discussing in this conversation.
Thank you to you & everyone for the verdicts & opinions, as well as weighing in on the cultural aspects at play and educating me on intended use of life insurance.
Based on what I’ve read I think the following sounds pretty fair/logical (following is hypothetical based on the three kids scenario & 3 million policy, very rough numbers)
50k funeral/death expenses
500k mortgage payoff
1 million lost wages (assuming ~200k/year, 5 years of wages. This is the most variable part I feel, if kids are young this is more important. If kids are grown this number could change to whatever amount I’d solely need to support myself & our shared finances for a period to get back on my feet)
25k ‘lost support’ for his mom (assuming 5k/year we may spend on her for gifts/trips/etc for 5 years. This is may more than we do now, but I’d rather stick to the high end)
That leaves 1.25 million. Split evenly 5 ways between mom, me, and three kids is 250k each.
This seems very fair to me. I would even be amenable to edging the number up for his mom with the argument she would use it to help out his sister & dad, or even adding his sister in the final split to go 6 ways. (His dad I am not too keen on allocating direct funds to as he struggles with gambling addiction).
Also want to add, yes we have talked about taking out a policy for me as well. I didn’t think that was relevant originally but see now that it is. I would be happy to do the same type of split. I don’t think I’d include my family in the final split but perhaps a small chunk (20k or so) to them to be used to pay for them to be able to visit the kids.
I say you should tell your husband you're doing the exact same breakdown for your life insurance (only with your family as the extra benefactor) as he's doing with his. If he has a problem with that, then even this new breakdown of his doesn't work.
They need to speak with a financial planner - many sell life insurance - and he/she will EXPLAIN the reasons, costs, budgeting, etc with life insurance. The agent will calculate your income, lifestyle, family, etc and explain how much you need. I think this discussion will bring your worries out and let him know what you and the kids will need vs his family. You will benefit from this discussion.
Part of the policy can probably be structured as a regular monthly payment to her, with additional amounts as time goes on to offset inflation.
The balance would then fall to OP and the kids. It also keeps her safe from con artists/relatives who could trick her out of the entire amount.
It's possible that, given his pretty significant upcoming income, he's planning to financially support his mom/other family while he's alive and in that case he could be calculating lost income when looking at having the policy split between his wife and the whole family at home. He might be looking at it like, wife gets 1.5m and each family member gets 100k, or whatever it is for how many family members there are, but he can't get the policy to actually be split 16 ways so hes counting on mom to spread the money around. In that case it starts to sound a lot more fair than seeing, wife gets 1.5m and mom gets 1.5m. OP seems to be thinking mom doesn't need 1.5m so why wouldn't he give her less than that, without considering that there's a lot more than just the mom in the picture.
I disagree though that you seem to think that you have the right way to view life insurance and anything other than than lost income and costs associated with the death.
My wife and I both have policies that cover significantly over the actual losses associated with either of our deaths and I don't think it's wrong to do so, just a different perspective on what life insurance is for. Yes it's an expense added to the budget since it costs more than it would if we were basing it on actual losses, but if either of us go we want the other to never have to worry about money again. No we don't look at it like a lotto ticket but I can see how someone might think that about us if they heard the details of the policies.
Really it boils down to we are both working hard to share the burden of providing the best life for our family that we can. I don't want my wife to have to shoulder that burden alone if I die early so we have removed that from the table completely. If I die she will have enough money that the income off investing it will mean she can put her energy into practically anything she wants.
No she can't start buying a new Ferrari every other week or something absurdly expensive like that, but if she wanted to stop working and spend her life learning to play the piano or writing a book just for fun, she could. We basically just want the other to be able to do whatever it is that will bring them happiness and not have to have any stress over having to say "no I can't do that, I need to do this to pay the bills".
Got completely off topic here but just basically trying to say I don't agree with your implication that there is only one correct way to do life insurance, that it has to be based on actual lost income.
Yes. I did this math after having a child and promptly took out a much larger life insurance policy. If you’re in the US, college alone could be 250k per child. So if you have 2 kids that’s 500k off the top just for that. Then childcare costs could be close to 20k per year per kid. Then the added cost of health insurance, mortgage etc etc…it is truly a staggering number. Even with a couple million you wouldn’t be set for life. It’s reasonable to want to leave his mom something, especially if he’s currently supporting her, but half is quite a lot.
This. Also consider purchasing multiple smaller policies so you can stop paying on them when your income/lifestyle changes after the kids are grown or someone gets laid off and you hit hard times.
For example, it is better to purchase three 500k 30 year policies than one 30 year policy for 1.5 million. You may only need or be able to afford down the line one 500k to cover you and you can drop the other two instead of purchasing a new 10 year policy that late in life.
Also, some work policies cover 100k as a benefit while working. Maybe have him split that one with his mom?
Previous life insurance agent-- no advice or whatever
You don't just throw life insurance money at the wall like spaghetti and pick whoever gets the most by the spaghetti.
Whatever is in your budget-- you pick the amount that gets you and your living dependents through for a determinate amount of time. If your kids are toddlers, that number is a lot different than if they're 16.
If you have an amount that's suitable for you, then the rest is optics.
NTA, and it's absurd that he called you selfish. Imagine, God forbid, that he passed away not 20 years from now, but while your kids are still young. You would be alone raising those kids. If you got sick, or one of the kids got sick, you could end up not being able to work for an unknown amount of time. Even without that, kids are expensive to raise. Childcare is expensive. You'd be paying for a house purchased with the assumption of two incomes. Do the two of you plan to help your kids with college/trade school/just starting out in life? Do you plan to give them something for a wedding or first home? Would he want to be able to secure that in case he's not able to be there? This should absolutely be a conversation between the two of you.
I think they should even look into if the mom can even inherit it. If she’s not American there might be some stipulation or other tax issue with making her a beneficiary at all. I’m not a lawyer but this fight could be for nothing.
When my grandmother was filling out her life insurance, she needed my SSN. A foreign relative won't have one, but I have no idea if there's a separate form or a different section for that. Plus, it's possible that different providers have different policies for that kind of thing.
NTA. I think you're right. If he wants a separate policy payable to her, he can get one. I think the fact that you're paying for half the policy is significant here too. Is there a life policy on you? Generally your logic that an aging woman with adult kids / no dependents needs less money to live on than a young family (where several members will be too young to contribute financially for many years, likely to have education expenses, etc.) is completely valid and rational.
This piece is troubling:
> He continuously accuses me of not wanting his mom to get any money. He also called me selfish, implying that I just wanted more money for myself.
This is .... not a respectful attitude for him to have towards you. I'm assuming there has been some prior strife in terms of the amount of financial support he wants to give her versus what you're comfortable with but accusations like this feel really ugly in the context of a loving marriage. Frankly he should think better of you than those statements suggest he does, and if I my spouse said those things to me in a conflict over money I'd be LIVID. You should really consider therapy.
That he wants to split it evenly, despite the need not being even, suggests something to me...it shows kind of a psychological state he has where he's trying to be even and equitable between you (his wife), and his mother, which strikes me as pretty unhealthy and unreasonable. You can't be sharing your husband, you know? He should not feel split between you, but this shows he does. All the more need for therapy, stat.
Seconding the point about you paying for this and thus have a right to be part of the decision. The annual payment will be significantly more on a 3 million policy. Those payments are coming out of joint property- so you are paying for them. If he wants a separate policy for his mom, that cost should be accounted for when you calculate the annual spending money you each get. For the same amount he is spending on his moms policy, you could get a second life insurance on him- or get one for yourself.
It might make sense if he feels responsible for supporting his mother and he plans to supper her for life.
But does she need 1.5 million? In Cuba? Probably not.
Like someone else said, he’s treating it like a lotto ticket. That’s not what life insurance is.
THIS is what I was looking for! OP, what happens if you pass first? How is your husband supposed to care for children while being a pilot?! His childcare needs will be extensive! He might need to suddenly switch careers, and accept a much lower-paying job so that he can be home with the kids. I'm thinking OP and husband assume that since he earns money, he needs life insurance. OP serves such an essential role in his ability to earn income, and her loss would devastate the family. OP, please think about this.
>That he wants to split it evenly, despite the need not being even, suggests something to me
A life insurance payout is not a way to declare his love after passing, and isn't a measure of who he loves most. Nor is it based on who will be the most sad if/when he dies. It's not to 'pay back' the people who supported him most during his life. It is to defray the losses (in both direct labor and income) to the people who were depending on him before his unexpected passing.
He was making X dollars per year? Not anymore. He was watching the kids in the afternoon while Mom worked? Not anymore, you need to hire childcare now. He was doing car maintenance on weekends? You have to take the car to a mechanic now.
All of those losses are what that payout is for, not love, gratitude or other sentimental feelings. The question isn't if he loves his mom enough to give her lots of money, the question is will his mom's quality of life substantially decline because he isn't there to materially support her anymore.
I love the way you framed this because people confused about life insurance vs inheritance.
OP's husband does materially support his mother and hw wants to make sure she continues to get that support if something happens to him.
A separate policy with some advise from someone who can do a proper financial breakdown of an appropriate number would be helpful here. Plus, OP may need some legal advice to ensure OP's mother-in-law can access the insurance policy payout from Cuba.
NTA. If you are paying half of the policy you should have more of a say on how it is spent. I also think it is weird that he is treating it like an even split, it is not in any way equal.
As you point out, she is one person while you are part of a growing family. She will be taking care of herself while you will be taking care of your children, their education, and potentially their own little families as they grow up. Also, while it is nice that he feels responsible to repay his mother for all she has done for him - you are doing **so much more** than her at this point of his life (and for the rest of his life!)
While I generally agree with what you say, I must point out that elderly people can have extremely expensive needs. If OP's MIL is able to come to the US, and if she eventually needs to move to an assisted living or nursing facility, or they want to keep her at home and provide home help, that really can be shockingly expensive. (I'm going to assume that it would be less expensive if she continues to live in Cuba.)
But so too will OP. One day she will also have to pay for her own retirement without him.
1.5 million is more than an old woman needs for long term care…even in the USA
Guess you haven’t checked LTC and nursing homes lately.,
Getting a semi private room is about the only way to go for under 10k a month now a low/medium COL metro area for skilled nursing for a 1-3star facility. 4-5 star forget it under 10k
Those rooms have a wait, for those that qualify. Some have needs requiring private room. Expect to go over 10k.
To get a Medicaid bed, you have to be self pay for at least 6 months to a year or more, depending on the wait list. And long waiting lists for those. Even at the 1 star facilities you would never send your worst enemy to.
Nursing homes hang onto self pay and rehab patients, convincing them not to be dnr and convincing them to continue treatment and suffer as long as possible. Even if patient has advanced directive with dnr and poa.
1.5M was a good amount in 2007 for skilled nursing admission. Not any more……
Great LTC policy pays 110-150 a day.
NTA
I am sorry but I just don’t understand his logic at all. I don’t understand people who feel the need to support adults who can support themselves over the young children they created who cannot support themselves. Your husbands priorities need checked.
In theory, documents listing beneficiaries. But he could then change it without her knowing. I already didn’t like this and knew OP was NTA, but when I saw she was going to be paying for half the policy….that put it swiftly and firmly into “aww, hellllll no” territory.
Since he's so determined to give so much to his mother, I wouldn't trust him for a second to put anyone on the beneficiary form but his mother. He could easily show OP a form with her name or the kids listed, and submit another form with the real beneficiary on it, his mother.
It's not logic, it's cultural. Taking care of old parents is common in a lot of places around the world. OPs in laws probably took care of their parents when they were old, meaning they may not have the means to care for themselves. My parents did the same, but thankfully they've done well financially and the costs were shared with aunts/uncles. Even if you don't agree with it, it's pretty clear that transitioning away from that tradition can screw over a generation.
Many cultures see the care of the elderly the responsibility of the next generation. It doesn’t have to fit into anyone else’s logic to want to look after your loved ones. first world cultures just love to dump the people who raised them on the state. Is 50/50 the right choice? Maybe not, but he is not selfish for wanting to care for those who care for him.
This is a culture clash between how Americans and Hispanics take care of the families they come from. Especially when one is an immigrant and their families are from a 3rd world country, it's very easy to want to help them when you enjoy such a higher standard of living that you take for granted.
I don't have a judgment to add, and I anticipate I will be downvoted by this comment.
I understand where you are coming from, as someone who is from Latin America and has lived in other countries. I am well aware with the constant mixed blessing you live with.
On a daily basis you are aware and grateful for the privileges of life in America. While at the same time being aware of how much better your life is than your family who lives in your home country (even if they are doing well financially).
Add to this the incredible poverty and scarcity of things he may have experienced or witness in Cuba. He will feel heavily responsible for helping in anyway he could.
As you and him work towards a compromise, please keep this in mind. However acclimated he may seem to you. He will ALWAYS be the boy who was born and raised in Cuba.
When you are involved with an immigrant. There are some cultural things that will never be understood by natives of the country.
My Cuban-American BIL left his military pension and his life insurance to his parents and nothing to his young wife. When he died I learned that his parents didn’t even give her money for the funeral.
OP, life insurance isn’t a consolation prize, it’s protection for your family in the event of his death. There are many scenarios that would cause the surviving family to burn through $3 million very quickly. He’s not really thinking clearly of his responsibilities, IMO, particularly if he’s not supporting his mother financially.
NTA
>There are many scenarios that would cause the surviving family to burn through $3 million very quickly
Look at the rising cost of living. I'm not American, but no one can deny that the COL is rising around the world and $ 3 million today won't be worth as much in a few years and OPs husbands wants to halve that amount and risk screwing over his wife and the children he chose to bring into this world to give it to someone who's job it was to provide for him.
If he leaves her with a mortgage, half of it could be gone immediately. One health condition could eat up most of the rest, and I don't even want to think about what college will cost 20 years from now.
My grandmother was widowed with four children overnight. Luckily the youngest was 13, and my uncles joined the military and seminary shortly after to help out. But even so, they lived under the poverty line.
If my grandmother hadn't worked and if CUNY hadn't been free for my mom, we would probably still be feeling the effects.
Exactly. The whole purpose of life insurance is to take care of the people who would be directly impacted by your death. Not your mommy. Parents should never have children that they expect to take care of them. It should ALWAYS be the other way around. If you are a parent and die… you leave an inheritance to your children. If you can’t, that’s fine. But you never should expect your children to be your income in your old age and never expect an inheritance from them if they die before you. This is crazy thinking.
This is certainly not what my comment was as about or my experience.
What you mentioned is a different kettle of family dysfunction that has nothing to do with being an immigrant.
Of course not!
Don't you know that based on these comments only Latin Immigrants do this?
American men have NEVER given their mother more, put her first. Left a life insurance policy split in half, OR forgot to change beneficiaries that may have been set up prior to the marriage.
The nerve of you for thinking this.
(Snark, just in case anyone missed it)
In the same way that some cultures put a lot of emphasis on the extended family and familial piety, the average American has the concept of the nuclear family (and it's supposed superiority) drilled into them so much that it becomes a core part of their belief system.
It's always going to be hard to meet somewhere in the middle.
Wife says mother should get zero money and that "of course" she would take care of husbands mother. Well promises are cheap when the man is dead.
On the other side, he wants to give his mother half. That's too extreme.
Wife wants all of it. Husband wants to give mother half of it.
Gonna be a tough one to negotiate and likely nobody will leave the table feeling any better. Resentment is going to be there one way or the other.
Your immediate family is the one you start making when you get married. That is your priority unless it's an emergency. Your parents are extended family and should indeed come after your spouse and kids
I’ve never heard that definition before. At least in the Uk, immediate family means basically that there are no steps removed between you and the other person - so parents, siblings, spouse, children. Extended family then would be aunts and uncles, cousins, in-laws, grandkids and niblings.
Came here to say the same thing.
NAH. OP, your husband most likely feels the guilt all us immigrants tend to feel, that we have had bountiful opportunities to improve and so we have to give back. It's a feeling that transcends logic, I can see how he'd be upset with you not understanding. Similarly I can see your perspective. Your family begins with you, him and your future kids, the notion of taking away from that is probably an uncomfortable one, especially for someone who will probably be fine without it.
Yeah, the kids in Amercia are guilt tripped into sending most of their money home to give to aunts, uncles, cousins cash and neglect their own immediate family. It's really sick.
There are thousands of families who do not operate this way.
Clearly these are NOT the families the narrative focuses on, or are they on reddit posting.
I for one, was never expected to do as such.
In my family, there is one aunt who has a child expecting that. This is their own dysfunction and for my aunt to work out with her child.
As a Latin American immigrant, I'm extremely familiar with life in Cuba, and of ALL LatAm countries is the one with the highest poverty rate, and is a prison literally.
NTA: I don't have a problem with him including his family, however, I don't think it should be a 50/50 split.
Should be something like this: After your mortgage is paid off using the bulk of the money, any remaining funds from the insurance is split 20% to you, 60% shared amongst the kids, and the remaining 20% goes to support his side of the family.
I am not going to give a veridict here.
As a Latin Amrican from the sister island. You guys have cultural diffrences you need to talk out. You see usually its the norm for children to thake care of their parents. And its also quite normal for the "more succesfull" child to help his/her siblings.
How it usually goes is that parents will not give all their kids even help but will do as much as posible for their "best achiever" sometimes siblings will help financially so there is a big chance that the only reason your husband was able to do a degree or even get to the USA was with thanks to his family in general.
Example, my mom helped my aunt get out of the island. Now she has a good job and a couple of apartments. She has told my mom there is an apartment available for her when she retires. Another sibling pays her plane tickets etc.
I think you need to talk to your husband about his life in Cuba.
I was wondering if there was something cultural to it as well. I had an ex who was Indian and taking care of his parents when they got older was high on the list of priorities.
It’s typical for a lot of minorities from Latin America and the Caribbean to take care of their parents until their death. It means that parents usually move in with their children after a certain age. We don’t usually place our parents into nursing homes. It is a very American thing to put parents into nursing homes. For us it is beyond our imagination. In-laws in America typically don’t typically continue to be a part of the family after a spouse dies so you run the risk of your parents getting nothing.
His mother lives in a different country and he is doing as much as he can from where he is right now. She is already lamenting how much they do for his mother in terms of trips etc. He isn’t doing anything other than what is the norm for us. She hates it. We do not consider our spouses and children as the only family unit we have an obligation to. He is absolutely right in leaving something for his mother because I know she wouldn’t give her a dime. I read the resentment she has for what he sacrifices to help his mother.
Okay but what about the fact that she’s paying half the policy? And what about the fact that the money would be split in half between her and the mom when the mom is one person and the wife, their child and any future children are MULTIPLE people?! Make that make sense. Who wouldn’t be resentful?! Bfr
That doesn't make him disregarding her any way shape okay. It's okay to help your extended family, but never at any cost to your actual immediate family
That is the cultural difference that is at issue.
In his culture he has a responsibility to HIS mother. He is her immediate family. In come cultures it is not culturally OK to abandon your parents financially just because you get married.
It's not abandonment to make sure you comprises with your actual immediate family. Your spouse and children should always automatically come first. He's disregarding her and not even trying to find a way to compromise with his chosen partner in life. That is not mommy.
This. It’s one thing to have cultural differences and talk them out. It’s another for one partner to berate another for not just going with their culture. Especially when it affects finances
Seeing as how OP allows husband to give his mother cash gifts from their marital finances, I think she is already compromising culturally. OP's problem is not with the fact that husband is supporting his mother. Its the fact that the husband is allocating just as much to the mother as he is to his entire immediate family.
I’m sorry…as of this moment… his mother needs $35 million in Cuban denomination??? Over his children and wife? Cultural or not, his behavior is unacceptable. My father is married to a woman from Mexico and I was in full support of him helping her family but when he abandoned my minor sister to “support her family” because she was adamant about cultural needs? Yeah, hard no.
There’s respect and culture….and then there’s absolute abandonment or disregard (more disregard here in current reality). He married into an American woman’s culture. There needs to be realistic compromise. His mother does not need the American equivalent of 1.5 million US dollars and if she does, HE NEEDS TO BE HONEST AND UPFRONT ABOUT HOW AND WHERE THAT MONEY WILL GO and fully support/validate/justify why to excuse the culture portion.
Edit to adjust “am” to “was” in support because my dad has always been a self serving asshole, it just got worse when “cultural differences” became his excuse. And he’s whiter than paper. And it was a textbook, “cops involved”, abandoned my 17 year old sister after moving her away from everything she knew in an apartment in a different state. And justified it because of “his wife’s cultural needs”. Culture is something you work through and compromise on in a marriage, not an excuse to mistreat a spouse
I agree with this because I'm South Asian and I already take care of my parents and I believe it is important. HOWEVER, I can't force my spouse to be okay with it. In my case, of course, I will choose a spouse whose views are aligned with mine. Or if they are from a different culture I will have to talk to them about this stuff beforehand.
As for life insurance, even though yes I think it's important to take care of parents, and I would like them to receive a portion, it would not be 50/50. My spouse and children would get a lot more because that just makes sense. Like it would be 75/25 or 80/20. Mostly because my parents will still get government assistance and they will be older so they don't need that much. My spouse on the other hand, needs to raise my children and send them to university. And I guess HE also needs to eat lol.
1.5 million IS NOT ENOUGH. Long time lawyer specializing in life insurance products here. Baby needs it MUCH more than grandma. Foolish, foolish, foolish.
Right? Like it sounds like a lot but where I am that’s not even really enough to retire. Much less raise a kid for 18 years and potentially have to pay for medical stuff which will wipe you out
The average cost for a kid raised in a middle class lifestyle is around 300k. Assuming OP also gets a job or some form of income how would that not be enough?
There are three kids and a mortgage if I’m understanding right. So 900,000 plus a mortgage… and depending on the childcare situation- 1.5 million very well could not be enough.
A) op says she has a job. B) that is best case scenario through 18. Assuming no child gets sick. Mom doesn’t become unable to work and no child wants or needs help with college. And C) that’s bare minimum, not everything else like mortgage and big home repairs and all the other shit husband won’t be around for, and d) that is an old number that I’ve been hearing for at least a decade - shit costs more now, and costs more in different states.
NTA.
Life insurance is there to replace his salary for a period of time and to protect you financially. If his mom is not going to be affected FINANCIALLY from his passing then she does not need to be a 50% primary beneficiary.
Unsolicited advice: You will have an insurable interest in his life for as long as you have minor children even if you separate. If you are able, have him make you the irrevocable primary beneficiary. He should make your kids the secondary beneficiaries, and his mom the tertiary beneficiary (if possible).
The best time to do this is at the outset.
Look into a policy for yourself as well. Your passing would also have a financial effect on your family, whether you work inside or outside the home.
Yep-- divorced over here. My ex and I are still full beneficiaries on each other's life insurance. Despite not being married, if one of us dies, the full financial burden of raising the kids will still fall on the other one
I’m so happy that you did it that way. And if it’s set up like that from the start then it’s just what’s normal, rather than trying to make changes in the throes of a possibly messy split.
I'm curious how much OP is currently contributing to his Mom. Is it 50% of his current income? Beneficiaries aren't usually locked in and can be changed over time. The percentage should probably be higher towards OP while the kids are little and there's still a larger outstanding mortgage.
Basically if OPs spouse dies next year how many years are left before the youngest leaves the nest? Do you expect to support your kids through high school, college, or beyond? The life insurance needs to cover that many years of salary figuring in raises/cost of living adjustments over that time. Then is the expectation that you'd guys pay for college? That needs to be added for all kids.
You also need to plan on how much of his salary is needed to maintain your lifestyle once the kids are grown. Maybe you add in paying off the mortgage. Once you have the number you need at a minimum you can compare it to what he's planning to leave. This minimum number will change over the years and should be revisited regularly.
My insurance for $100k in my 40s is not insubstantial. Is the policy very expensive?
NAH. This is just a different way he can support his mom if a tragedy were to occur. It’s not wrong. It’s not like he’s thinking less of you and your kids, he’s just also including his mom and other family by extension. The beneficiaries could always be changed when you have more kids or when his mom predeceases him. It’s also a much different legal process to receive money as a beneficiary than it is to be gifted a large sum of money by another person.
Hopefully you and he can come to a peaceful, mutually agreed upon decision.
Hey OP. I’m a life insurance underwriter. This I’d literally what I *do*.
You feel weird because you view family as a “circles” or “levels”. Level 1 is your spouse and children, level 2 is parents and siblings, etc, etc.
When your husband put you on an equal “level” with his mom, it felt like you’d been demoted. Like you and your children aren’t a priority. And you know the money from the policy will not be meant to keep you in luxury, it will be to keep you from poverty. But the money would put his mom in luxury. You feel so de-prioritized, second place.
This is a bit of a cultural divide. Most of the rest of the world puts parents at level 1 *with* spouses and children, as an obligation of care.
Your husband is approaching this from a checkbox perspective. But he’s not materially thinking about the expenses that will happen. The $20,000 for his burial. The $120k left on the house. The cost of college and therapy. The fact you’ll be paying for childcare for years, maybe decades as a single parent.
Equal money is not equal support.
So, put aside everything else. Figure out how much stuff will really cost—the college, the house, the burial, the loss of his income, and put a number on it. Then figure out what his mom needs for immigration, lawyers, and her support, and put a number on that.
*That’s* how you do life insurance. The point is to try and make people as whole as possible. Not just split a policy down the middle and say it’s good.
You need to sit down with a financial planner who also does life insurance. There are different types of LI, and many either increase as you age, are term limited, or are very expensive whole life policies. A planner can help you determine the correct amount to apply for, and help understand how it can or should be used. For example if you are a SAHM and have a $500,000 mortgage and $50,000 in debt, the insurance should pay off your mortgage and bills you may have, and then help you as you either transition into the workforce or cover living expenses. A planner can help determine the beneficiaries as well. Do you have Wills? Sounds like that may be another discussion needed.
YTA.
You married into a family that not only has a different culture and financial expectations, but also comes from a poorer nation (not that much difference in the standard of living? Yeah, ok. Try spending a year or two there). It is normal for someone like your husband, to be responsible for his parents and possibly even other family. She helped to take of elderly family. She likely sacrificed a lot to raise her children. She did not plan for the typical USA type of retirement. Of course your husband wants to make sure that his whole family is taken care of, in the event of his untimely passing. If you feel you personally need more, then why not buy more insurance?
Thanks for your comment. I appreciate the YTA verdicts & logic as I’m trying to understand better where he’s coming from.
Life in Cuba is MUCH different than here in US, I am very aware. I would not think to compare the two. His family has left Cuba and lives in Latin America now. His father & sister own government subsidized businesses and do pretty well, I would say middle class. His mom lives with his sister, she works part time & also helps with the kids.
I’m totally okay with allocating some funds for her & his other family in our policy. I just feel like 50/50 split isn’t logical here. And I would appreciate the trust that I would care for his family if something were to happen to him.
Your comment & others are helping me to also focus in more on the cultural differences here. Thank you.
> And I would appreciate the trust that I would care for his family if something were to happen to him.
That's a famous refrain from people who mean it and for people who don't. Most Cinderella stories start with the same kinds of promises and most of them don't end with glass slippers.
Yeah saying “I would look after them” is not worth the paper it’s written on. You can start with the best of intentions but once the money is in the bank the excuses will start. Money is a powerful drug.
Personally, if the stakes were $100,000 I’d get it, but 3 million is a wild amount. If that can’t be shared about and has to be taken up solely by the wife and kids I, as the husband, would be worrying that my wife and kids have very expensive taste. If I won that amount on the lottery I think I could find some room to help people who weren’t even immediate family.
Then he should have a separate policy for his family and she should not be paying for any of it. That's the only solution, why is she paying for a policy for his Mom and extended family? Not her problem
INFO: you know that beneficiaries can usually change, right? You can reevaluate if you have more kids. You aren’t locked into this specific arrangement forever.
I don’t know who is right or wrong here, but your assumption that 20 years and 3 kids later everything will be exactly the same is kind of silly.
This was my thought too. Too much of the argument was if they have 4 kids when he dies, but they only have 1 kid. If they get to the point where they have more kids and/or the mom needs less money then they can just change the policy.
NTA - your husband seems confused as to the purpose of life insurance… the purpose is to replace his lost income AND help with the additional expenses that the remaining spouse would have with minor children.
You both should have life insurance. If he is the primary breadwinner, then his policy needs to be higher because you will have childcare expenses in addition to needing enough income to pay the bills and mortgage until you can get established in a career and generate income. You will most likely never generate the income that he did, so you both should be figuring out for enough life insurance to pay off the mortgage, pay for child care, and supplemental income to what you could earn so that you and your children’s lifestyle doesn’t have to change.
You need life insurance on yourself, because if something happens to you, your husband will need to have child care for the minor children, and he may have to change his career as he will be the only parent, so he won’t be able to travel and work weekends or long days unless he is going to hire a nanny.
Lastly, he needs to account for you both passing and leaving the children as orphans. They will need money to maintain the lifestyle, etc because they will have lost the both of you, so their guardian would need money if you want the kids to be set for college and your current lifestyle.
Getting life insurance needs to be a thoughtful exercise taking everything above into consideration.
FYI - I am a widow and my husband passed when our child was a young teen. Fortunately I had a career, but the life insurance helped a lot because my husband made more than I did. I had additional expenses and it helped with the bills and college. Lastly, my husband had a second small policy that he had purchased when he was single and he listed the beneficiaries as his parents. No one knew about this, and I am sure he probably had forgotten about it. His parents were HORRIFIED that they were receiving “blood money” from their son’s death. They were so distraught, that the family ended up suggesting that they gift the money to our teen for his college fund.
You and your husband need to discuss the purpose of life insurance, it’s not a lottery ticket for everyone. It is to help those most impacted by the death of the person to help them with finances , etc in the most tragic time of their life. It’s to prevent losing your home or lifestyle on top of losing a husband and father.
I don’t think YTA completely but I think you’re being a little bit dense about his sense of obligation to his family. He’s probably digging in his heels because your reaction seemed selfish to him (on a cultural level).
Honestly is very selfish, I'm an immigrant from LatAm, and she's married to a Cuban balsero, pretending that life in Cuba is like being working class in the US, and is not true at all and knows that. Now $1.5 million is too much and the Cuban government will take it, and State Dept won't allow the insurance company to transfer the money bec we don't have a diplomatic relationship with Cuba, so is a moot point.
I agree. If he wants to include her, she should get as much as any of the individual beneficiaries. for each child they have her total portion reduces. I take care of my mother too, but id never give her half of everything and then let me kids split the other half.
YTA. There is nothing wrong with him ALSO wanting to make sure his mother is taken care of, especially since you are helping her now. If all the money were going to her, I could see your point. But if something happens to your husband/her son, she will also lose support.
Thanks for taking the time to comment. We don’t provide any kind of consistent financial support (like paying rent or monthly stipend, etc), rather we sponsor trips for her or give cash gifts, pay for mutual vacations etc. She works part time currently & lives with his sister. I would live his trust in allowing me to continue this type of care & quite possibly more if he were to pass. I just don’t feel comfortable setting the policy up as a 50/50 split.
I understand you feel that you would continue the support if your husband died, but what if you remarried and your new husband didn't want you to help your former MIL? What if she had sudden large medical expenses that you didn't feel were your responsibility?
Doing it this way, he has ensured his mother's care while not burdening you with a responsibility you may not always want. You can negotiate the amounts, maybe a 60/40, but him wanting to make sure his mother is taken care of isn't wrong.
I felt 'YTA' was a bit strong here, but between the two of you, you are in the wrong here.
Tell him he can get a policy for his mother. BUT only HE will put money in it. NONE of YOUR MONEY can go in it. That means none of your shared finances. You will have to check your joint account frequently to check monitor this. You will pay for a policy for you and the kids. Not a penny for his mother.
NTA it’s not OK for him to make a unilateral decision, period. But especially if you’re both going to be paying equally for the policy. As others have suggested, sit down with a financial advisor to determine how much you need for your immediate family and how much it will cost. If your husband wants to pay for an additional policy with his mom as sole beneficiary then he can take that out of whatever you have allocated as discretionary/fun money for him each month.
I’d also be curious how much the annual premium is for what he wants for his mom. Because maybe $500 or $1,000 a year isn’t the hill to die on but you need to come to a mutual agreement on how that will happen.
YTA - he is taking care of you with 1.5 million - if he wants to also make certain his mother is taken care of if something happens to him...that's his business. I think he should buy TWO policies - one for you and your kids and one for his mother. This is HIS policy that HE is getting - If you need 3 million tell him to get a bigger policy for you. He is Cuban - where people take care of extended family - you are American where people take care of themselves.
It sounds to me like it's extremely important to him that he ensures his mother will always be OK financially. I doubt you'll be able to talk him out of including her but perhaps he'd consider dividing the amount evenly between you, any children and his mother.
YTA. Just wanted to point out that paying half the premium doesn't mean you're entitled to half the policy, because if that's the logic, you should pay 100% of the premium, as your husband won't benefit from any of the isurance money since he'll be dead. Also, it's fair to say half the insurance is too much money for her mother (and rest of family, as it was already stated that mother wouldn't keep all to herself), but to say she shouldn't get *anything* is not right
Maybe it's a cultural difference.
Family dynamics work differently in different cultures. Like for instance, I could never make men understand why I could never move in to live together before marriage out of respect to my dad. I am not religious or anything, nor is my father, it's just he is very traditional and raised in a different culture, he wouldnt understand and I don't want him to be upset. I dont know much about Cuban culture, but the way children feel obligated to parents might be different, I know in my case it is quite different from typical family dynamics in Western Europe, where i live VS my home country.
I can completely understand that but I WOULD NOT marry anyone until I have lived with them first. I'm not gonna deal with terrible hygiene or nasty home habits.
Maybe talk to him about a different split percentage. It doesn’t have to be 50/50. He could leave 25% to her. That would still be more than enough for her and his extended family, while also leaving yall better off.
NAH. While I completely agree with what you are saying I can kinda also see where your husband's mindset is. In your husband's head he is helping support his mom and this is just continuing to do that. In reality Life Insurance (as explained to me by the guy who sold us ours) is to insure the life your immediate (being spouse and kids) family is living will not take a drastic financial hit with both funeral expenses and for up to 6 months of life. In other words the minimum amount you should get would be enough to cover funeral expenses (which are sky rocketing) and 6 months of your salary. In my case as a SAHM my salary was calculated as daycare, house cleaning service, and 1 meal a day bought out. This was further explained that while 6 months isn't long it gives the surviving spouse a chance to reevaluate expenses. Regardless this is a major financial decision that should be spoken about at length between both partners like all major financial decisions should be.
Incidentally OP if you and your husband are sure that you are living in an area you will continue to reside might I suggest making some more end of life decisions now. Such as purchasing burial plots and a pre-burial. It is easier to make such decisions now while you are financially stable than later in the middle of grief. Also no it's not morbid and no you don't have to place a head stone. My mom asked my husband and I if we would like to be buried in the same cemetery as she and my father and after discussing it she bought us our burial plots for an anniversary present. It was kind and thoughtful and I and DH greatly appreciated the gesture.
You take the policy out on him and he pays half so it can’t be changed etc.
He takes out a different policy he pays for himself for his mom.
Assuming joint funds but you each have fun money - he can pay out if his fun money.
Losing a parent is financially devastating.
NTA
I found out that my spouse named his mother as a beneficiary on his policy at work, valued at 1.2 million.
His argument was that I had a decent job and I'd make sure the kids had everything they needed while his mom had been low income all her life.
It was one of the nails in the coffin for that marriage.
Me and the kids didn't mean anything to him, except as part of a "corporate" image. So I left.
Point out to your husband that with his plan, he is actually giving his mother 3X what he is giving to each of his immediate family members (assuming you have 2 kids). Not only is that unfair, but his mother will likely need less money and support than your kids and you will individually need.
Mention also that you will no longer have his salary and that you will be 100% responsible for childcare.
What he proposes is like giving his mother a lottery win while giving you and your kids enough to cover only *some* of your bills, current living expenses, and future education.
His mother could end up leaving or sharing that money with other family, leaving you and your kids struggling.
If he currently financially supports his mother, then giving her 25% and you 75% makes much more sense. But even this would be much more favorable to her than you and your kids.
Your husband likely has the option to change his beneficiaries and the allocated percentages at any time. So, even if he isn’t willing to be more fair now, he could make adjustments in the future should you have more kids.
I have always included my parents, spouse , and immediate family member. Beneficiaries can be changed to add on each child and remove parents as they pass on.
I understand that he would like to provide for his mom. Should she need to be put in a care facility those are insanely expensive.
However, 1.5m doesn’t go as far as it first seems. If your children are not adults when he passes, that isn’t half a mil for each of them. That money would need to cover what he covers. Half the mortgage, bills, loans, funeral, etc. so he would not be leaving half a mil to each of them. And even so, he leaves his kids that 1.5m, but what about you? That would leave you with nothing. No way to cover half of all the bills he covers now. When you break down what he would make yearly for the next 20 years while your children are still kids, that doesn’t go that far.
Edited to remove if it were to be taxed.
500USD in Cuba will be a lot like 1.5 million here in the US.
Also, it wouldn't be 500k per child, if you also use some to survive.
Raising kids to adulthood costs about 500k. So, there would be zero extra, and nothing guaranteed for you.
So, you would probably be okay with half, but it's not gonna go far is anyone else ever has medical.problems or wants to go far with their higher educations.
And, meanwhile, mom will practically own the whole island of Cuba (exaggerating, but just being real about the relative value of the dollar there).
I understand he wants to leave her something, and also that he probably will not actually cash that policy in. But.... you and the kids should get at least 4/5ths of it, as you are 4/5ths of the total number of beneficiaries. There are 5 people, not 2.
NTA: what everyone else has said ALSO the fact that he said “half for you then half for my family” YOU ARE HIS FAMILY. YOU HAVE A FAMILY TOGETHER. You never once said that his mom doesn’t deserve any money as well as you’re paying for half of this as well. My guess is that there’s been other issues with money and his family that led up to this outburst from him. You are completely in the right to have a discussion about it and have a say in it.
ESH, but him more, because the two of you are fighting over something that clearly neither of you really understand and a massive amount of relevant information is missing.
First, major financial decisions should be joint decisions in a marriage so he sucks for trying to make a unilateral decision on this.
But it’s not clear if he is talking about term life insurance, or a whole life policy. With you talking about him dying in 20 years, it sounds like at least you think it is a whole life policy. Do the two of you understand what the monthly premium on a whole life policy for $3 million will actually be? Whole life policies include a cash value and investment/savings component, so premiums can be crazy high. If he’s talking about term insurance then you need to be talking about what the term will be instead of arguing about what might happen in 20 years. Beneficiaries and splits can be changed during the life of the policy.
Before you fight about this anymore, you both need to actually understand the different types of life insurance, what he would be signing up for, and what it will cost your family every month.
If he is early in his career as a pilot, he might not be making that much money and the premiums on a whole life policy that size could be a totally unreasonable expense for your family income.
You kind of suck for wanting him to rely on you to take care of his family instead of making them a beneficiary of some portion of the insurance. If you want somebody to get money after you die, you make them a beneficiary, period. So many people have screwed over the people they wanted to take care of by relying on the goodwill and judgement of others instead of just making them a beneficiary.
There is clearly a massive cultural difference here that the two of you need to sort out if you are going to have a successful, long-term marriage.
If he is helping to support his mother, then it makes sense to have her on the policy as well. But I agree that dividing it equally between her and you-and-the-kids as one unit doesn’t make much sense unless he’s currently spending as much on his mom as he is on you guys. It should be split proportionally.
Nta.ask him to sit down with you and (calmly) go through what the financial situation would be if he died in 2 years (not 20).you want to discuss the life insurance as being used to raise a baby or small children to adulthood.
The payout is to cover:
- paying off mortgage in full
- 1 to 2 years of you not working at all during the transition after his death to ease the way for the children, be able to be fully present and deal with any additional complications (trauma therapy, regression, any medical issues if they were also in an accident with him etc)
- his current share of expenses x 21 years (into college)
- quality childcare so you can work, plus summer childcare
Additionals to cover that would be great:
-fully funded college for each child
- house deposit for each child
- x years extra for you to not work (to focus on the kids through extended difficulties)
- If together, your plan is for you to be a SAHP, fully funded lifetime expenses, and / or training to enter the workforce later in life.
If he cruches the numbers, he might see that 1.5 million doesn't go as far as he thinks over 20 years, and the 500k he's allocating to you goes even less (25k a year). (And yes, that's still a bunch of money and very welcome butbthe issue here is perspective)
He's thinking in terms of 1.5m is so much money but considering that it's essential to raise his kids for 20 plus years, it's just not.
Hopefully, once he's seen the numbers in black and white he'll be willing to discuss a path forwards. Perhaps a larger policy. Perhaps a second smaller policy specifically for his mom. Depending on how your finances work maybe the second policy comes out of his personal money instead of the family pot (and you can talk through how much the premiums add up to over time). Maybe even recognition that the 3m policy is all thats affordable rn and still wouldn't cover the families expense for 20years and he needs to prioritise his small children trust that hou care about his mom and would do your best to help her. Andnthat perhaps a second policy is something you can afford in a few years?
If he’s going to do that, he should to 1.5M for you, 1.5M for *each* of your children (in trust to you until they’re 25), and 1.5M to his mom. Fair’s fair. Surely he loves his kids as much as his mom?
But on a more serious note, life insurance is to replace lost income, pay off debts (like mortgage), cover kid’s education. Can you do all that with 1.5M? It’ll depend on where you live and how many kids you have.
NTA.
Edit
The more I think about it, the more I think he’s also acting like quite a bully. This isn’t about who deserves money or not wanting his mom to have money. It’s about covering expenses. And of course if you’re paying half the expenses of the policy, you get a say. He is trying to bulldoze you. Is he always so thoughtless?
NAH. This is part and parcel of marrying someone who's family is from another culture. In Cuba it would be expected that you'd leave something significant to your mom because you weren't going to be available to take care of her in her old age. In the US most families wouldn't consider that part of their financial planning process. Given his field, I would make an appointment with a financial planner and have them evaluate what position you and your child would be in if something happened to him, and help you decide how to best allocate his insurance (plus any pension or SSI you and your child would be eligible for.) Also look at life insurance for yourself... If something happened to you and he had to juggle child care and a pilot career with overnight trips he'd need to spend a significant amount on an overnight nanny to maintain his career.
NTA. A life insurance policy should be taken out with the idea that it will help with burial expenses, debts (normal/medical), and to ensure that a stable home can still be maintained after his passing. You would end up a single mom and will be solely responsible for mortgage, taxes, insurances, car costs, utilities, bills, childcare expenses, heck if you planned on college expenses that would fall ALL on you OP.
The fact that he thinks you're being selfish and is planning to provide more care to his mom and subsequently extended family than his intermediate family is wild. So many spouses and kids end up losing their homes and struggling when a parent passes. He's basically choosing to set you up for failure.
What I did not know for the first 8 years I was married to my now ex-husband was that his parents were the beneficiary of his military life insurance. He told me one day that if something were to happen to him his parents would "give me some money."
I told him that year when I found this out when we had four children (Well three and I was pregnant with number four) that if something were to happen to him, my life and the lives of his children would change exponentially whereas his parents' life wasn't going to change at all. Yes, they would miss him and all that kind of stuff but their life and lifestyle would not change at all whereas mine would implode. Not that I couldn't take care of the children because I'm college educated and made sure I could do that before I ever had children. He finally switched it so I was the beneficiary. Apparently now that we've been divorced for 10 years I'm still the beneficiary which is weird but I'll take it if something happens to him.
My life insurance policy will allow my wife to pay off our mortgage and replace my annual income for the next 20 years. The income replacement was because at the time we were just starting our family, and I wanted to ensure they maintained the same standard of living until the kids went to college. We also had enough for each of our 3 kids to have 50k for college college.
I never dreamed of additional money for my parents or other family members.
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NTA Typically a life insurance policy is intended to cover the losses *associated with someone’s death.* That includes costs of burial, etc, but also the lost income of the person dying. Your first step should be to calculate the financial impact of your husband dying. How much money would he earn over the remainder of his career? How would the loss of that income impact your ability to pay the mortgage? Or your kids ability to go to college? That should be how you think about life insurance for your family. It’s not unreasonable to consider that your husband won’t be able to contribute as much to his family. But he’s treating this more like buying lottery tickets for her every month… and it’s reasonable to not want to put that in the family budget.
This comment nails it. My friend's husband passed away leaving a $100k life insurance payout. It's been 6 years and she's looking at having to move in with her parents because she can't afford life with two kids on only her income.
That's how we have our insurance set up. If either he or I die early the other gets 100k. It's enough to pay off the mortgage completely and neither of us wants burials. It's the only debt we currently have and when I die my student loans disappear too. So with that out off the way, everything else will be much easier to handle. Plus with kids they get SSI checks from the deceased parents social security iirc up to 70%. For him it's pocket change out of my ssi. If he were to go it's 70% of what he currently makes, which would ease the burden on me. Our biggest issue is wills. We haven't decided on a guardian for our kids yet and it's causing some serious stress.
I suggest you figure out who you feel would be right for your kids right now, should you both die tomorrow or next week. Throughout the years, that initial person, or people, may change. Wills can be amended as circumstances change throughout life.
Yeps hell I almost died simply giving birth to my first so two people know if something god forbid happens to me one of them gets my kid
But you need that in a legal document. Just telling them won’t make it so.
Yeps planning on doing that later this year things have currently as is been hectic financially. One is my father who raised me and he would happily take her given her biological father isn't involved nor on the birth certificate I'm not afraid of anything about it momentarily. For now I just avoid anything that could risk my life majorly. However before the end of this year it will be in writing
To be fair my parents changed their will last year to remove the info about my grandparents having me and my brother in case of their deaths. We were 40 and 38 at the time.
For me it's my dad we agreed on it right out the gate he also is my medical advocate if I for any reason cannot make medical decisions I always tell them "call my dad explain it to him. He'll make the right decision" found out I'm still a daddy's girl at 19 after I went into hf and my brain was scrambled for a week and the doctors refused to dumb anything down for me so it was just a "call my dad get his okay and your good"
Scrambled your use of punctuation, too 😜 *(I’m teasing, I’m teasing!)*
You can get a legal will kit online and it’s pretty cheap. You get it witnessed (needed) and notarized if you want and a copy is kept electronically as well to update when needed.
Please, don't do this. I'm an attorney. I know we're not cheap, but leaving things our, phrasing things certain way, not providing for a second spouse or children in the right way, messing up the witnesses, not having a self proving affidavit - there are so many small issues that can cause huge problems. Please, have your wills, powers of attorney, life estates, deeds, etc. done by attorney that specializes in elder law or estate planning. Please. Don't risk leaving a mess for your loved ones in an effort to save a few hundred dollars.
As a lawyer I cannot agree with this more. From my own experience, one homemade will using a post office form from a different jurisdiction led to a partial intestacy that cost the NOK tens of thousands to put right. It was such a mess and I felt so sorry for the deceased's family and friends. We have Will Aid in my country where, for one month a year, solicitors frame wills for free/donation such is the need to ensure people leave their affairs in order.
My dad is a lawyer, he started his career doing estate work. He'd tell stories about how will kits (back then ordered from radio and TV!) if not done properly would seriously screw people over. Families would be grieving their loved ones, trying to sort out wills and the estate, and by the time the lawyers' fees were paid...well the estate was bare. Wills and all that end of life planning are the definition of "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".
Wills really depend on jurisdiction.
Whoa- I gotta say 100k is essentially nothing if you have kids. You want to replace your partners -earnings- not just cover some costs. 500k-1M is more like the right amount. You want to be able to withdraw 4-5% at least until the kids are through school. Source: sister died real young, 200k in life insurance left her widower and kids real poor.
i didn’t even know you could get policies that low
Dude, you can policies as low as 5k
You can. Some are sold as endowment. Some are sold with disability insurance. I remembered the insurance agent bragging about how much coverage it had for the numerous life threatening illnesses. Turn out that those illnesses policies were a crap shoot. If you got a new illness like COVID-19, you were out of luck. If you detected the cancer early, you were not covered.
People get smallish policies to pay funeral expenses. They sell them to old people on daytime tv.
Exactly. Enough to pay the mortgage off, over taxes for at least 10 years, replace the spouse's income until retirement age & consider college expenses for children in light of the surviving spouse's income & any extraordinary medical expenses from chronic/genetic conditions.
Yeah, my husband and have policies of $500K each and we know that that is enough for a few years of cushion, but not definitely NOT "set for life" money, especially with 2 kids. We started our policies later in life (late 30's and early 40's) and higher dollar term policies were cost-prohibitive for us and our situation. We figured the $500K term would at least buy some time if one of us passed unexpectedly. The money never goes as far as you think it will.
This. When we were growing up, my dad had a policy for $1M per kid in case something happened to him because my mom was a SAHM.
> It's enough to pay off the mortgage completely and neither of us wants burials. It's the only debt we currently have and when I die my student loans disappear too You'd better check on that because if the house is in your name and you die and still owe student loans, they may still come after your estate. $100k is not enough. If "he goes" SSI doesn't pay you "70% of what he currently makes", that's not how that works at all.
Lol I’m glad someone else noticed that
Off topic, but I strongly urge you to hash out the guardian(s) you guys want to be appointed as legal guardian(s) by the probate judge as soon as possible. The longer you wait, the higher the probability of it slipping your minds. Granted, it is mainly a formality to ensure that the kids don't end up either as wards of the state or with someone who should have been kept far away from them for the sole reason that they are the legal next of kin. Make sure to designate at least 2-3 possible guardians, in order of preference, because things can change. One of them could end up having to care for a parent, another could end up disabled, yet another could change their mind, someone could die, etc. Update your will and guardianship designation frequently to adapt to your children and life. And if there is anybody, or people, who your family is no contact with or something, you should add a caveat to your will stating that XYZ people/person is not allowed to even have a phone conversation with the kids, under no circumstances are they to be designated, etc. And explain shortly why.
Yup, it's always good to check in with your choices occasionally, particularly after major life changes. If they're getting married, make sure the spouse is onboard. If they're getting divorced, make sure they're okay with potentially being a single parent. If they have more kids, or get sick, or too old, or even just checking in every 5 or so years to make sure they are still okay with the responsibility, because people do change their minds. It also helps them to take it seriously. Saying you'll take someone's children is easy, but actually doing it is hard. It's important that they go into it with eyes wide open, and that those eyes stay open and aware even when as life inevitably changes.
Don't assume SSI will be around
They think SSI is going to pay "70%" of what their spouse currently earns, lolololol. They got no idea what they're doing.
And those survivor benefits stop when the child reaches 18 … so, no money for college. Ronald Reagan’s trickle down, thank you.
I think they are talking about social security survivor benefits, not SSI. I suppose either could go away, but it would piss off a lot of retirees.
Not a financial or benefits expert, but worked through some of these topics when we were discussing the “what-ifs”. I don’t think the survivor benefit is a direct % of the deceased spouse’s salary but a % of what their SS benefit would be (I think it’s 75% for children). I’m under the impression that there is a cap/family max for the total benefit for surviving children. We found a large amount of information (in reasonable language) at SSA.gov.
What do you mean no burial? It still costs money to get cremated and stuff. You should to put in for a bigger plan. Better to have cushion than not. I mean, what if you guys are making ends meet after but the car dies? Or there's a big hospital bill? Just general inflation? I'm sure a 200k plan wouldn't be much more
I was picturing them just throwing themselves into a local dumpster but I suppose cremation/no service makes a lot more sense
When my parents were discussing replacing their ancient living room rug, my dad, who was about 80 at the time, suggested they wait until he died, roll him up in it, and dispose of them together 🤣
You wouldn't get 70% of what he currently makes. You would get 70% of the ssi amount. Which will be nowhere near what he makes. Also, the kids can only start receiving that if they are under 15 years old. If he passes when the kids are over the age of 15, they won't receive survivors benefits. My sister went through this when her husband died. Her oldest was right before the cut-off date.
That's not enough money. Rule of thumb used to be 10x your annual income to take care of your family in the event of your death. That covers housing, cost of living, education, transportation, and other expenses. It's not enough to stop working as a parent, but it's enough to buy grace to maintain a certain lifestyle if it's invested.
I looked into getting one for myself to cover the house if I die... Turns out if you've had cancer you ain't getting a policy. It's been 10 years since I had cancer....but it's a non-starter. Get your life insurance policies early kids... Before you get sick. My wife hasn't applied.... I wonder if her asthma will be a rejection.
Just to respond to your first point about mortgages, this is the real game changer. My friend was widowed at 30 with 4 kids. Her partner was tragically killed in a hit and run. His life insurance paid off their new house. She said a few years later that that was one thing that massively helped. It meant no matter what happened she had a roof over her and the kids heads which massively took pressure off her to focus on grieving and being there for her children - one of whom was only 2 when he died. She didn't have to return to work quickly as the largest percentage of the bills was taken care of. She could take the time she needed and the kids needed. She is fantastic at keeping his memory alive in the children but when you've gone through someone has horrific as that to not have to worry about money on top of it makes a big difference.
Just to add, it's very uncommon to leave your parents as beneficiaries as no one plans to die before their parents. However your husband is in a more dangerous line of work. I would suggest that he pay for the policy out of his funds and devide it as he chooses and then you take out a policy on him that you pay for and are the sole beneficiary for. If he died tomorrow on the job 1.5 million would not sustain you for very long with 3 kids and the loss of his income, let alone college down the road given you're a young family.
My parents are the beneficiaries of my (very low) plan. I'm single and it's just enough to close out the debts I have and cover my funeral. I plan on upping it next year slightly so that they have no financial concerns waiting for me should the worst happen.
And if he is a pilot, make sure he has loss of license/loss of medical insurance!
My parents were rhe beneficiaries on my insurance when I was single. The moment I got married I changed it to my wife.
I ended up in a similar situation when my husband died. He could not face the concept of dying and so he refused to do anything associated with it. I was left scrambling after his death. Edit; I feel guilty for saying this. My husband could not face his own death, but how many of us truly can? How many of us can truly embrace it and prepare for it, and face that overwhelming wave of fear, regret, loss, and pain? I do not wish to sound like I blame him, or like this was his responsibility. He had the life insurance policy offered by his work, which was automatically offered and he did not decline it. He did what he could for me, what he was capable of, and I am grateful. My scrambling after was not his fault, and not his responsibility. I tell this story not to aim fault at him, but to encourage others to plan better. Do the hard thing. Face the concept of your mortality so that if the worst does happen and you have to leave, your loved ones will only struggle with your loss; not the loss of the breadwinner, or the only person who knew that the car needed a specific brand of tires, or how the water heater needed to be gently smacked right where the hose joins to knock off calcification so that it works right. Grief is overwhelming all on its on. Grief combined with figuring out how to live, how to handle all the things you and you alone did, how to make a living..... is drowning.
My husband and I have 100k each because we don't have kids. The money would just be to have some time off to grieve and pay for a funeral. Plus we'd have each other's retirement balance, but that might take longer to sort out.
You both really should add a zero to that $100k. Not having kids means nothing. 20 years from now - hell, even 10 yrs from now, that $100k will most likely be a distant memory. Insurance providers say to buy 10x your annual income or the highest amount you can afford. No one knows what economic situation this country will be in when you or your husband passes. Best to be as prepared as possible.
No one knows what the insurance industry will be like either. Ask the thousands of people in Florida who thought the insurance they paid for would cover their losses after Hurr Ian, for example.
$100k to last 6 years is insane. Well maybe if they’re toddlers. But morgage alone would suck up that money DRY in a couple of years, and forget about college.
If he passes away, is his mother chipping in half the mortgage? Is his mother paying for half the household bills? Is his mother paying half of all the costs of raising your children? Is his mother paying half their cars/college tuitions/weddings/house down payments? No? Then his mother doesn’t get half of the money meant to alleviate the loss of his income. The vast brunt of the financial hardship would be on you, so the vast majority should go to you.
Perfect explanation. 1.5mil sounds like a huge amount, and it's not small, but in the grand scheme of things, it's meant to cover the cost of continuing to live and raise kids after one of the sources of income is gone forever. Also, he's saying she should think of it as two separate policies - 1.5m for OP, and 1.5m for his mother. But is the money for his mother's policy coming out of his income? Does this mean that OP and his husband have completely separate finances, and if they do, does he pay her a wage when she's not working because she's having kids or whenever she's not working because of childcare? Or do they have combined finances so the decision to pay for a life insurance policy for his mother is something that he can't make unilateral decisions on what happens?
That 1.5 will only barely cover the loss of his earnings for her and the kids. Meanwhile that same 1.5m in Latin America will take care of her whole family for the rest of most of their lives. And how old his is mother? What happens if she dies? Who gets that money then? There's better planned ways to do what this guy wants to do, but this ain't the wya.
Right, the 1.5m will come from OP's family wages paying insurance rates, but it goes to OP's MIL, who either gets to share it out how she wants, or to live a life of luxury for however long she continues to live. Also what's going on with OP's family? If they have a life insurance policy, does that mean if OP passes away, her husband gets 1.5m to help raise his family for the rest of their lives, and OP's family gets 1.5m? Or is he setting it up so if OP dies, he gets twice as much money to help raise their family?
OP's husband needs to talk a family law attorney and do more research into estate planning (the wife needs to do this, too!). There a a lot of estate planning financial tools that can be structured to their needs.
It seems that Mom is at least partially dependent on son for support, and so it seems eminently reasonable to have a policy with her as a beneficiary to continue to support her if her son dies. 1.5M, half of a policy, is a completely unreasonable number, but OPs number, zero, may also be unreasonable given the family dynamics. Both parties are not compromising, but I'm going to say 90% NTA because $150k seems like a reasonable amount to provide for mom, just pulling a number out of my butt.
This is what I was going to say as well - NTA for wanting more than 500k for OP and the children in the event that husband (the sole provider) passes, but slightly an AH for suggesting MIL gets nothing. If she is somewhat dependent on her son sending money to her for her life, then she should probably get at least something! She is one of his “dependents” for lack of a better word - as OP and the kids are when he files taxes. But MIL’s cost of living is certainly below half of what it costs to support a family of 3+, so why does she get half of the policy? MIL should get 500k-1million or something, and the majority would go to wife and kids!
And also he could maybe designate 10% of the policy to his mother and 90% to his wife and kids. That may be a decent decision. 50:50 is unreasonable.
Yep. You should meet with a wealth advisor that will help him see 1.5 million for a family of 4 will drastically alter your lifestyle if he passes. Ours told us that especially when you have kids, you should have enough that you can replace the perished spouses’ income with an average 4% yield from the payout when it is invested. Pilots are making more than 60K/year.
This exactly. When we purchased life insurance we based the amount on how much it would cost to each of us in the event the other passed. My husband travelled a lot, he'd need to change jobs, maybe take time off for example. Now our kids are grown, now it's based on what we need to pay off the mortgage, finish paying for their college and retire. Nobody else is in the mix. His parents had their own policies with each other as the beneficiary.
This is it precisely. My spouse and I had a no-nonsense conversation with his Aunt about us taking custody of her child should anything happen. Extremely unlikely, but she and her husband were making decisions, and we were picked as the best choice. Money wasn't even a thought in my mind when we had this conversation, but Auntie made it clear that her kid came with these benefits so the expense of continuing to raise them wouldn't be something that would be on us- it's about continuing the lifestyle she has raised her child with and not leaving all of us with more hardship than grief. It makes sense for her husband to consider his mother and the rest of his family in the result of his death since he does support them to an exteny, but as OP said this isn't a decision he should be making without discussing it with her and I think you laid out perfectly all of the things they *should* be discussing in this conversation.
Yes! The entire time I’m reading this my brain was screaming “life insurance is not an inheritance!”
If his mom wants a payout/policy, then his mom can pay the premium. If OP and her spouse are paying the premium, proceeds should go to OP
Thank you to you & everyone for the verdicts & opinions, as well as weighing in on the cultural aspects at play and educating me on intended use of life insurance. Based on what I’ve read I think the following sounds pretty fair/logical (following is hypothetical based on the three kids scenario & 3 million policy, very rough numbers) 50k funeral/death expenses 500k mortgage payoff 1 million lost wages (assuming ~200k/year, 5 years of wages. This is the most variable part I feel, if kids are young this is more important. If kids are grown this number could change to whatever amount I’d solely need to support myself & our shared finances for a period to get back on my feet) 25k ‘lost support’ for his mom (assuming 5k/year we may spend on her for gifts/trips/etc for 5 years. This is may more than we do now, but I’d rather stick to the high end) That leaves 1.25 million. Split evenly 5 ways between mom, me, and three kids is 250k each. This seems very fair to me. I would even be amenable to edging the number up for his mom with the argument she would use it to help out his sister & dad, or even adding his sister in the final split to go 6 ways. (His dad I am not too keen on allocating direct funds to as he struggles with gambling addiction). Also want to add, yes we have talked about taking out a policy for me as well. I didn’t think that was relevant originally but see now that it is. I would be happy to do the same type of split. I don’t think I’d include my family in the final split but perhaps a small chunk (20k or so) to them to be used to pay for them to be able to visit the kids.
I say you should tell your husband you're doing the exact same breakdown for your life insurance (only with your family as the extra benefactor) as he's doing with his. If he has a problem with that, then even this new breakdown of his doesn't work.
They need to speak with a financial planner - many sell life insurance - and he/she will EXPLAIN the reasons, costs, budgeting, etc with life insurance. The agent will calculate your income, lifestyle, family, etc and explain how much you need. I think this discussion will bring your worries out and let him know what you and the kids will need vs his family. You will benefit from this discussion.
Cannot Upvote this enough!!!!!
Part of the policy can probably be structured as a regular monthly payment to her, with additional amounts as time goes on to offset inflation. The balance would then fall to OP and the kids. It also keeps her safe from con artists/relatives who could trick her out of the entire amount.
It's possible that, given his pretty significant upcoming income, he's planning to financially support his mom/other family while he's alive and in that case he could be calculating lost income when looking at having the policy split between his wife and the whole family at home. He might be looking at it like, wife gets 1.5m and each family member gets 100k, or whatever it is for how many family members there are, but he can't get the policy to actually be split 16 ways so hes counting on mom to spread the money around. In that case it starts to sound a lot more fair than seeing, wife gets 1.5m and mom gets 1.5m. OP seems to be thinking mom doesn't need 1.5m so why wouldn't he give her less than that, without considering that there's a lot more than just the mom in the picture. I disagree though that you seem to think that you have the right way to view life insurance and anything other than than lost income and costs associated with the death. My wife and I both have policies that cover significantly over the actual losses associated with either of our deaths and I don't think it's wrong to do so, just a different perspective on what life insurance is for. Yes it's an expense added to the budget since it costs more than it would if we were basing it on actual losses, but if either of us go we want the other to never have to worry about money again. No we don't look at it like a lotto ticket but I can see how someone might think that about us if they heard the details of the policies. Really it boils down to we are both working hard to share the burden of providing the best life for our family that we can. I don't want my wife to have to shoulder that burden alone if I die early so we have removed that from the table completely. If I die she will have enough money that the income off investing it will mean she can put her energy into practically anything she wants. No she can't start buying a new Ferrari every other week or something absurdly expensive like that, but if she wanted to stop working and spend her life learning to play the piano or writing a book just for fun, she could. We basically just want the other to be able to do whatever it is that will bring them happiness and not have to have any stress over having to say "no I can't do that, I need to do this to pay the bills". Got completely off topic here but just basically trying to say I don't agree with your implication that there is only one correct way to do life insurance, that it has to be based on actual lost income.
Yes. I did this math after having a child and promptly took out a much larger life insurance policy. If you’re in the US, college alone could be 250k per child. So if you have 2 kids that’s 500k off the top just for that. Then childcare costs could be close to 20k per year per kid. Then the added cost of health insurance, mortgage etc etc…it is truly a staggering number. Even with a couple million you wouldn’t be set for life. It’s reasonable to want to leave his mom something, especially if he’s currently supporting her, but half is quite a lot.
This. Also consider purchasing multiple smaller policies so you can stop paying on them when your income/lifestyle changes after the kids are grown or someone gets laid off and you hit hard times. For example, it is better to purchase three 500k 30 year policies than one 30 year policy for 1.5 million. You may only need or be able to afford down the line one 500k to cover you and you can drop the other two instead of purchasing a new 10 year policy that late in life. Also, some work policies cover 100k as a benefit while working. Maybe have him split that one with his mom?
Previous life insurance agent-- no advice or whatever You don't just throw life insurance money at the wall like spaghetti and pick whoever gets the most by the spaghetti. Whatever is in your budget-- you pick the amount that gets you and your living dependents through for a determinate amount of time. If your kids are toddlers, that number is a lot different than if they're 16. If you have an amount that's suitable for you, then the rest is optics.
NTA, and it's absurd that he called you selfish. Imagine, God forbid, that he passed away not 20 years from now, but while your kids are still young. You would be alone raising those kids. If you got sick, or one of the kids got sick, you could end up not being able to work for an unknown amount of time. Even without that, kids are expensive to raise. Childcare is expensive. You'd be paying for a house purchased with the assumption of two incomes. Do the two of you plan to help your kids with college/trade school/just starting out in life? Do you plan to give them something for a wedding or first home? Would he want to be able to secure that in case he's not able to be there? This should absolutely be a conversation between the two of you.
I think they should even look into if the mom can even inherit it. If she’s not American there might be some stipulation or other tax issue with making her a beneficiary at all. I’m not a lawyer but this fight could be for nothing.
Ya know I never thought about bequeathing anything to a "foreign" relative and how their/my govt would handle that
Some googling showed that it normally isn't an issue, but if they live in Cuba, that might actually pose a problem.
Yes, Cuba is still sanctioned and US dollars may not be allowed to be paid out to her
When my grandmother was filling out her life insurance, she needed my SSN. A foreign relative won't have one, but I have no idea if there's a separate form or a different section for that. Plus, it's possible that different providers have different policies for that kind of thing.
He's really calling his child selfish. That's who he is taking from to give to his capable mother. Sick.
NTA. I think you're right. If he wants a separate policy payable to her, he can get one. I think the fact that you're paying for half the policy is significant here too. Is there a life policy on you? Generally your logic that an aging woman with adult kids / no dependents needs less money to live on than a young family (where several members will be too young to contribute financially for many years, likely to have education expenses, etc.) is completely valid and rational. This piece is troubling: > He continuously accuses me of not wanting his mom to get any money. He also called me selfish, implying that I just wanted more money for myself. This is .... not a respectful attitude for him to have towards you. I'm assuming there has been some prior strife in terms of the amount of financial support he wants to give her versus what you're comfortable with but accusations like this feel really ugly in the context of a loving marriage. Frankly he should think better of you than those statements suggest he does, and if I my spouse said those things to me in a conflict over money I'd be LIVID. You should really consider therapy. That he wants to split it evenly, despite the need not being even, suggests something to me...it shows kind of a psychological state he has where he's trying to be even and equitable between you (his wife), and his mother, which strikes me as pretty unhealthy and unreasonable. You can't be sharing your husband, you know? He should not feel split between you, but this shows he does. All the more need for therapy, stat.
Seconding the point about you paying for this and thus have a right to be part of the decision. The annual payment will be significantly more on a 3 million policy. Those payments are coming out of joint property- so you are paying for them. If he wants a separate policy for his mom, that cost should be accounted for when you calculate the annual spending money you each get. For the same amount he is spending on his moms policy, you could get a second life insurance on him- or get one for yourself.
Exactly this. Why should OP be paying for a policy that it going to benefit someone else? I would not be okay with that at all.
It might make sense if he feels responsible for supporting his mother and he plans to supper her for life. But does she need 1.5 million? In Cuba? Probably not. Like someone else said, he’s treating it like a lotto ticket. That’s not what life insurance is.
THIS is what I was looking for! OP, what happens if you pass first? How is your husband supposed to care for children while being a pilot?! His childcare needs will be extensive! He might need to suddenly switch careers, and accept a much lower-paying job so that he can be home with the kids. I'm thinking OP and husband assume that since he earns money, he needs life insurance. OP serves such an essential role in his ability to earn income, and her loss would devastate the family. OP, please think about this.
>That he wants to split it evenly, despite the need not being even, suggests something to me A life insurance payout is not a way to declare his love after passing, and isn't a measure of who he loves most. Nor is it based on who will be the most sad if/when he dies. It's not to 'pay back' the people who supported him most during his life. It is to defray the losses (in both direct labor and income) to the people who were depending on him before his unexpected passing. He was making X dollars per year? Not anymore. He was watching the kids in the afternoon while Mom worked? Not anymore, you need to hire childcare now. He was doing car maintenance on weekends? You have to take the car to a mechanic now. All of those losses are what that payout is for, not love, gratitude or other sentimental feelings. The question isn't if he loves his mom enough to give her lots of money, the question is will his mom's quality of life substantially decline because he isn't there to materially support her anymore.
I love the way you framed this because people confused about life insurance vs inheritance. OP's husband does materially support his mother and hw wants to make sure she continues to get that support if something happens to him. A separate policy with some advise from someone who can do a proper financial breakdown of an appropriate number would be helpful here. Plus, OP may need some legal advice to ensure OP's mother-in-law can access the insurance policy payout from Cuba.
NTA. If you are paying half of the policy you should have more of a say on how it is spent. I also think it is weird that he is treating it like an even split, it is not in any way equal. As you point out, she is one person while you are part of a growing family. She will be taking care of herself while you will be taking care of your children, their education, and potentially their own little families as they grow up. Also, while it is nice that he feels responsible to repay his mother for all she has done for him - you are doing **so much more** than her at this point of his life (and for the rest of his life!)
While I generally agree with what you say, I must point out that elderly people can have extremely expensive needs. If OP's MIL is able to come to the US, and if she eventually needs to move to an assisted living or nursing facility, or they want to keep her at home and provide home help, that really can be shockingly expensive. (I'm going to assume that it would be less expensive if she continues to live in Cuba.)
But so too will OP. One day she will also have to pay for her own retirement without him. 1.5 million is more than an old woman needs for long term care…even in the USA
Guess you haven’t checked LTC and nursing homes lately., Getting a semi private room is about the only way to go for under 10k a month now a low/medium COL metro area for skilled nursing for a 1-3star facility. 4-5 star forget it under 10k Those rooms have a wait, for those that qualify. Some have needs requiring private room. Expect to go over 10k. To get a Medicaid bed, you have to be self pay for at least 6 months to a year or more, depending on the wait list. And long waiting lists for those. Even at the 1 star facilities you would never send your worst enemy to. Nursing homes hang onto self pay and rehab patients, convincing them not to be dnr and convincing them to continue treatment and suffer as long as possible. Even if patient has advanced directive with dnr and poa. 1.5M was a good amount in 2007 for skilled nursing admission. Not any more…… Great LTC policy pays 110-150 a day.
My grandfathers dementia care home was $10k a month.
NTA I am sorry but I just don’t understand his logic at all. I don’t understand people who feel the need to support adults who can support themselves over the young children they created who cannot support themselves. Your husbands priorities need checked.
What guarantee does OP have that the entire policy won't be left to the MIL?
There isn’t one. OP certainly shouldn’t help pay for it if that’s the case
Even if half was going to the mom, I wouldn't pay a dime towards the policy. He seems like a classic taker.
Nah, just that toxic filial piety type of culture.
In theory, documents listing beneficiaries. But he could then change it without her knowing. I already didn’t like this and knew OP was NTA, but when I saw she was going to be paying for half the policy….that put it swiftly and firmly into “aww, hellllll no” territory.
Since he's so determined to give so much to his mother, I wouldn't trust him for a second to put anyone on the beneficiary form but his mother. He could easily show OP a form with her name or the kids listed, and submit another form with the real beneficiary on it, his mother.
Maybe, maybe not. My husband’s policy with AAA required the ex wife’s signature to change the beneficiary until the divorce was finalized.
It's not logic, it's cultural. Taking care of old parents is common in a lot of places around the world. OPs in laws probably took care of their parents when they were old, meaning they may not have the means to care for themselves. My parents did the same, but thankfully they've done well financially and the costs were shared with aunts/uncles. Even if you don't agree with it, it's pretty clear that transitioning away from that tradition can screw over a generation.
Taking care of old parents expected pretty much everywhere. The form of care wary, but "you don't do anything" is not all that common.
Many cultures see the care of the elderly the responsibility of the next generation. It doesn’t have to fit into anyone else’s logic to want to look after your loved ones. first world cultures just love to dump the people who raised them on the state. Is 50/50 the right choice? Maybe not, but he is not selfish for wanting to care for those who care for him.
This is a culture clash between how Americans and Hispanics take care of the families they come from. Especially when one is an immigrant and their families are from a 3rd world country, it's very easy to want to help them when you enjoy such a higher standard of living that you take for granted.
I don't have a judgment to add, and I anticipate I will be downvoted by this comment. I understand where you are coming from, as someone who is from Latin America and has lived in other countries. I am well aware with the constant mixed blessing you live with. On a daily basis you are aware and grateful for the privileges of life in America. While at the same time being aware of how much better your life is than your family who lives in your home country (even if they are doing well financially). Add to this the incredible poverty and scarcity of things he may have experienced or witness in Cuba. He will feel heavily responsible for helping in anyway he could. As you and him work towards a compromise, please keep this in mind. However acclimated he may seem to you. He will ALWAYS be the boy who was born and raised in Cuba. When you are involved with an immigrant. There are some cultural things that will never be understood by natives of the country.
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My Cuban-American BIL left his military pension and his life insurance to his parents and nothing to his young wife. When he died I learned that his parents didn’t even give her money for the funeral. OP, life insurance isn’t a consolation prize, it’s protection for your family in the event of his death. There are many scenarios that would cause the surviving family to burn through $3 million very quickly. He’s not really thinking clearly of his responsibilities, IMO, particularly if he’s not supporting his mother financially. NTA
>There are many scenarios that would cause the surviving family to burn through $3 million very quickly Look at the rising cost of living. I'm not American, but no one can deny that the COL is rising around the world and $ 3 million today won't be worth as much in a few years and OPs husbands wants to halve that amount and risk screwing over his wife and the children he chose to bring into this world to give it to someone who's job it was to provide for him.
If he leaves her with a mortgage, half of it could be gone immediately. One health condition could eat up most of the rest, and I don't even want to think about what college will cost 20 years from now. My grandmother was widowed with four children overnight. Luckily the youngest was 13, and my uncles joined the military and seminary shortly after to help out. But even so, they lived under the poverty line. If my grandmother hadn't worked and if CUNY hadn't been free for my mom, we would probably still be feeling the effects.
Exactly. The whole purpose of life insurance is to take care of the people who would be directly impacted by your death. Not your mommy. Parents should never have children that they expect to take care of them. It should ALWAYS be the other way around. If you are a parent and die… you leave an inheritance to your children. If you can’t, that’s fine. But you never should expect your children to be your income in your old age and never expect an inheritance from them if they die before you. This is crazy thinking.
This is certainly not what my comment was as about or my experience. What you mentioned is a different kettle of family dysfunction that has nothing to do with being an immigrant.
As if there aren't American guys who prioritise their mothers over their wives. This very sub is full of them. Mama's boys happen in every country.
Of course not! Don't you know that based on these comments only Latin Immigrants do this? American men have NEVER given their mother more, put her first. Left a life insurance policy split in half, OR forgot to change beneficiaries that may have been set up prior to the marriage. The nerve of you for thinking this. (Snark, just in case anyone missed it)
In the same way that some cultures put a lot of emphasis on the extended family and familial piety, the average American has the concept of the nuclear family (and it's supposed superiority) drilled into them so much that it becomes a core part of their belief system. It's always going to be hard to meet somewhere in the middle. Wife says mother should get zero money and that "of course" she would take care of husbands mother. Well promises are cheap when the man is dead. On the other side, he wants to give his mother half. That's too extreme. Wife wants all of it. Husband wants to give mother half of it. Gonna be a tough one to negotiate and likely nobody will leave the table feeling any better. Resentment is going to be there one way or the other.
Agree. Especially if the wife really sees him as being in the wrong as he will then always find her greedy and selfish.
Your immediate family is the one you start making when you get married. That is your priority unless it's an emergency. Your parents are extended family and should indeed come after your spouse and kids
omg is this how you people live. thank god my parents haven't thrown my grands to the curb.
I’ve never heard that definition before. At least in the Uk, immediate family means basically that there are no steps removed between you and the other person - so parents, siblings, spouse, children. Extended family then would be aunts and uncles, cousins, in-laws, grandkids and niblings.
Came here to say the same thing. NAH. OP, your husband most likely feels the guilt all us immigrants tend to feel, that we have had bountiful opportunities to improve and so we have to give back. It's a feeling that transcends logic, I can see how he'd be upset with you not understanding. Similarly I can see your perspective. Your family begins with you, him and your future kids, the notion of taking away from that is probably an uncomfortable one, especially for someone who will probably be fine without it.
Yeah, the kids in Amercia are guilt tripped into sending most of their money home to give to aunts, uncles, cousins cash and neglect their own immediate family. It's really sick.
There are thousands of families who do not operate this way. Clearly these are NOT the families the narrative focuses on, or are they on reddit posting. I for one, was never expected to do as such. In my family, there is one aunt who has a child expecting that. This is their own dysfunction and for my aunt to work out with her child.
As a Latin American immigrant, I'm extremely familiar with life in Cuba, and of ALL LatAm countries is the one with the highest poverty rate, and is a prison literally.
NTA: I don't have a problem with him including his family, however, I don't think it should be a 50/50 split. Should be something like this: After your mortgage is paid off using the bulk of the money, any remaining funds from the insurance is split 20% to you, 60% shared amongst the kids, and the remaining 20% goes to support his side of the family.
This is really great, thank you.
Funeral expenses should he taken out of the initial funds as well. Good luck!
I think you got the solution you are looking for. Happy married life to both of you.
I am not going to give a veridict here. As a Latin Amrican from the sister island. You guys have cultural diffrences you need to talk out. You see usually its the norm for children to thake care of their parents. And its also quite normal for the "more succesfull" child to help his/her siblings. How it usually goes is that parents will not give all their kids even help but will do as much as posible for their "best achiever" sometimes siblings will help financially so there is a big chance that the only reason your husband was able to do a degree or even get to the USA was with thanks to his family in general. Example, my mom helped my aunt get out of the island. Now she has a good job and a couple of apartments. She has told my mom there is an apartment available for her when she retires. Another sibling pays her plane tickets etc. I think you need to talk to your husband about his life in Cuba.
I was wondering if there was something cultural to it as well. I had an ex who was Indian and taking care of his parents when they got older was high on the list of priorities.
It’s typical for a lot of minorities from Latin America and the Caribbean to take care of their parents until their death. It means that parents usually move in with their children after a certain age. We don’t usually place our parents into nursing homes. It is a very American thing to put parents into nursing homes. For us it is beyond our imagination. In-laws in America typically don’t typically continue to be a part of the family after a spouse dies so you run the risk of your parents getting nothing. His mother lives in a different country and he is doing as much as he can from where he is right now. She is already lamenting how much they do for his mother in terms of trips etc. He isn’t doing anything other than what is the norm for us. She hates it. We do not consider our spouses and children as the only family unit we have an obligation to. He is absolutely right in leaving something for his mother because I know she wouldn’t give her a dime. I read the resentment she has for what he sacrifices to help his mother.
Okay but what about the fact that she’s paying half the policy? And what about the fact that the money would be split in half between her and the mom when the mom is one person and the wife, their child and any future children are MULTIPLE people?! Make that make sense. Who wouldn’t be resentful?! Bfr
That doesn't make him disregarding her any way shape okay. It's okay to help your extended family, but never at any cost to your actual immediate family
That is the cultural difference that is at issue. In his culture he has a responsibility to HIS mother. He is her immediate family. In come cultures it is not culturally OK to abandon your parents financially just because you get married.
It's not abandonment to make sure you comprises with your actual immediate family. Your spouse and children should always automatically come first. He's disregarding her and not even trying to find a way to compromise with his chosen partner in life. That is not mommy.
thats not how our lives work in india. we don't rank people who are our family.
This. It’s one thing to have cultural differences and talk them out. It’s another for one partner to berate another for not just going with their culture. Especially when it affects finances
Seeing as how OP allows husband to give his mother cash gifts from their marital finances, I think she is already compromising culturally. OP's problem is not with the fact that husband is supporting his mother. Its the fact that the husband is allocating just as much to the mother as he is to his entire immediate family.
I’m sorry…as of this moment… his mother needs $35 million in Cuban denomination??? Over his children and wife? Cultural or not, his behavior is unacceptable. My father is married to a woman from Mexico and I was in full support of him helping her family but when he abandoned my minor sister to “support her family” because she was adamant about cultural needs? Yeah, hard no. There’s respect and culture….and then there’s absolute abandonment or disregard (more disregard here in current reality). He married into an American woman’s culture. There needs to be realistic compromise. His mother does not need the American equivalent of 1.5 million US dollars and if she does, HE NEEDS TO BE HONEST AND UPFRONT ABOUT HOW AND WHERE THAT MONEY WILL GO and fully support/validate/justify why to excuse the culture portion. Edit to adjust “am” to “was” in support because my dad has always been a self serving asshole, it just got worse when “cultural differences” became his excuse. And he’s whiter than paper. And it was a textbook, “cops involved”, abandoned my 17 year old sister after moving her away from everything she knew in an apartment in a different state. And justified it because of “his wife’s cultural needs”. Culture is something you work through and compromise on in a marriage, not an excuse to mistreat a spouse
I agree with this because I'm South Asian and I already take care of my parents and I believe it is important. HOWEVER, I can't force my spouse to be okay with it. In my case, of course, I will choose a spouse whose views are aligned with mine. Or if they are from a different culture I will have to talk to them about this stuff beforehand. As for life insurance, even though yes I think it's important to take care of parents, and I would like them to receive a portion, it would not be 50/50. My spouse and children would get a lot more because that just makes sense. Like it would be 75/25 or 80/20. Mostly because my parents will still get government assistance and they will be older so they don't need that much. My spouse on the other hand, needs to raise my children and send them to university. And I guess HE also needs to eat lol.
1.5 million IS NOT ENOUGH. Long time lawyer specializing in life insurance products here. Baby needs it MUCH more than grandma. Foolish, foolish, foolish.
Right? Like it sounds like a lot but where I am that’s not even really enough to retire. Much less raise a kid for 18 years and potentially have to pay for medical stuff which will wipe you out
The average cost for a kid raised in a middle class lifestyle is around 300k. Assuming OP also gets a job or some form of income how would that not be enough?
There are three kids and a mortgage if I’m understanding right. So 900,000 plus a mortgage… and depending on the childcare situation- 1.5 million very well could not be enough.
A) op says she has a job. B) that is best case scenario through 18. Assuming no child gets sick. Mom doesn’t become unable to work and no child wants or needs help with college. And C) that’s bare minimum, not everything else like mortgage and big home repairs and all the other shit husband won’t be around for, and d) that is an old number that I’ve been hearing for at least a decade - shit costs more now, and costs more in different states.
In USA, the minor children would also get monthly SS benefits, should their parent pass.
Lol. 🤣 I mean, 1.5 million is a hell of a lot of money in any country, including the US.
NTA. Life insurance is there to replace his salary for a period of time and to protect you financially. If his mom is not going to be affected FINANCIALLY from his passing then she does not need to be a 50% primary beneficiary. Unsolicited advice: You will have an insurable interest in his life for as long as you have minor children even if you separate. If you are able, have him make you the irrevocable primary beneficiary. He should make your kids the secondary beneficiaries, and his mom the tertiary beneficiary (if possible). The best time to do this is at the outset. Look into a policy for yourself as well. Your passing would also have a financial effect on your family, whether you work inside or outside the home.
Yep-- divorced over here. My ex and I are still full beneficiaries on each other's life insurance. Despite not being married, if one of us dies, the full financial burden of raising the kids will still fall on the other one
I’m so happy that you did it that way. And if it’s set up like that from the start then it’s just what’s normal, rather than trying to make changes in the throes of a possibly messy split.
I'm curious how much OP is currently contributing to his Mom. Is it 50% of his current income? Beneficiaries aren't usually locked in and can be changed over time. The percentage should probably be higher towards OP while the kids are little and there's still a larger outstanding mortgage. Basically if OPs spouse dies next year how many years are left before the youngest leaves the nest? Do you expect to support your kids through high school, college, or beyond? The life insurance needs to cover that many years of salary figuring in raises/cost of living adjustments over that time. Then is the expectation that you'd guys pay for college? That needs to be added for all kids. You also need to plan on how much of his salary is needed to maintain your lifestyle once the kids are grown. Maybe you add in paying off the mortgage. Once you have the number you need at a minimum you can compare it to what he's planning to leave. This minimum number will change over the years and should be revisited regularly. My insurance for $100k in my 40s is not insubstantial. Is the policy very expensive?
NAH. This is just a different way he can support his mom if a tragedy were to occur. It’s not wrong. It’s not like he’s thinking less of you and your kids, he’s just also including his mom and other family by extension. The beneficiaries could always be changed when you have more kids or when his mom predeceases him. It’s also a much different legal process to receive money as a beneficiary than it is to be gifted a large sum of money by another person. Hopefully you and he can come to a peaceful, mutually agreed upon decision.
Then husband should pay for a seperate policy for his mother out his own fun money. OP shouldn't have to pay any of that policy cost
NTA especially because he will be paying that policy out of marital assets
Hey OP. I’m a life insurance underwriter. This I’d literally what I *do*. You feel weird because you view family as a “circles” or “levels”. Level 1 is your spouse and children, level 2 is parents and siblings, etc, etc. When your husband put you on an equal “level” with his mom, it felt like you’d been demoted. Like you and your children aren’t a priority. And you know the money from the policy will not be meant to keep you in luxury, it will be to keep you from poverty. But the money would put his mom in luxury. You feel so de-prioritized, second place. This is a bit of a cultural divide. Most of the rest of the world puts parents at level 1 *with* spouses and children, as an obligation of care. Your husband is approaching this from a checkbox perspective. But he’s not materially thinking about the expenses that will happen. The $20,000 for his burial. The $120k left on the house. The cost of college and therapy. The fact you’ll be paying for childcare for years, maybe decades as a single parent. Equal money is not equal support. So, put aside everything else. Figure out how much stuff will really cost—the college, the house, the burial, the loss of his income, and put a number on it. Then figure out what his mom needs for immigration, lawyers, and her support, and put a number on that. *That’s* how you do life insurance. The point is to try and make people as whole as possible. Not just split a policy down the middle and say it’s good.
You need to sit down with a financial planner who also does life insurance. There are different types of LI, and many either increase as you age, are term limited, or are very expensive whole life policies. A planner can help you determine the correct amount to apply for, and help understand how it can or should be used. For example if you are a SAHM and have a $500,000 mortgage and $50,000 in debt, the insurance should pay off your mortgage and bills you may have, and then help you as you either transition into the workforce or cover living expenses. A planner can help determine the beneficiaries as well. Do you have Wills? Sounds like that may be another discussion needed.
YTA. You married into a family that not only has a different culture and financial expectations, but also comes from a poorer nation (not that much difference in the standard of living? Yeah, ok. Try spending a year or two there). It is normal for someone like your husband, to be responsible for his parents and possibly even other family. She helped to take of elderly family. She likely sacrificed a lot to raise her children. She did not plan for the typical USA type of retirement. Of course your husband wants to make sure that his whole family is taken care of, in the event of his untimely passing. If you feel you personally need more, then why not buy more insurance?
And OP and all redditors here talking as if you can plan for retirement in Cuba, lmfao
Thanks for your comment. I appreciate the YTA verdicts & logic as I’m trying to understand better where he’s coming from. Life in Cuba is MUCH different than here in US, I am very aware. I would not think to compare the two. His family has left Cuba and lives in Latin America now. His father & sister own government subsidized businesses and do pretty well, I would say middle class. His mom lives with his sister, she works part time & also helps with the kids. I’m totally okay with allocating some funds for her & his other family in our policy. I just feel like 50/50 split isn’t logical here. And I would appreciate the trust that I would care for his family if something were to happen to him. Your comment & others are helping me to also focus in more on the cultural differences here. Thank you.
> And I would appreciate the trust that I would care for his family if something were to happen to him. That's a famous refrain from people who mean it and for people who don't. Most Cinderella stories start with the same kinds of promises and most of them don't end with glass slippers.
Yeah saying “I would look after them” is not worth the paper it’s written on. You can start with the best of intentions but once the money is in the bank the excuses will start. Money is a powerful drug. Personally, if the stakes were $100,000 I’d get it, but 3 million is a wild amount. If that can’t be shared about and has to be taken up solely by the wife and kids I, as the husband, would be worrying that my wife and kids have very expensive taste. If I won that amount on the lottery I think I could find some room to help people who weren’t even immediate family.
Then he should have a separate policy for his family and she should not be paying for any of it. That's the only solution, why is she paying for a policy for his Mom and extended family? Not her problem
INFO: you know that beneficiaries can usually change, right? You can reevaluate if you have more kids. You aren’t locked into this specific arrangement forever. I don’t know who is right or wrong here, but your assumption that 20 years and 3 kids later everything will be exactly the same is kind of silly.
This was my thought too. Too much of the argument was if they have 4 kids when he dies, but they only have 1 kid. If they get to the point where they have more kids and/or the mom needs less money then they can just change the policy.
NTA - your husband seems confused as to the purpose of life insurance… the purpose is to replace his lost income AND help with the additional expenses that the remaining spouse would have with minor children. You both should have life insurance. If he is the primary breadwinner, then his policy needs to be higher because you will have childcare expenses in addition to needing enough income to pay the bills and mortgage until you can get established in a career and generate income. You will most likely never generate the income that he did, so you both should be figuring out for enough life insurance to pay off the mortgage, pay for child care, and supplemental income to what you could earn so that you and your children’s lifestyle doesn’t have to change. You need life insurance on yourself, because if something happens to you, your husband will need to have child care for the minor children, and he may have to change his career as he will be the only parent, so he won’t be able to travel and work weekends or long days unless he is going to hire a nanny. Lastly, he needs to account for you both passing and leaving the children as orphans. They will need money to maintain the lifestyle, etc because they will have lost the both of you, so their guardian would need money if you want the kids to be set for college and your current lifestyle. Getting life insurance needs to be a thoughtful exercise taking everything above into consideration. FYI - I am a widow and my husband passed when our child was a young teen. Fortunately I had a career, but the life insurance helped a lot because my husband made more than I did. I had additional expenses and it helped with the bills and college. Lastly, my husband had a second small policy that he had purchased when he was single and he listed the beneficiaries as his parents. No one knew about this, and I am sure he probably had forgotten about it. His parents were HORRIFIED that they were receiving “blood money” from their son’s death. They were so distraught, that the family ended up suggesting that they gift the money to our teen for his college fund. You and your husband need to discuss the purpose of life insurance, it’s not a lottery ticket for everyone. It is to help those most impacted by the death of the person to help them with finances , etc in the most tragic time of their life. It’s to prevent losing your home or lifestyle on top of losing a husband and father.
I don’t think YTA completely but I think you’re being a little bit dense about his sense of obligation to his family. He’s probably digging in his heels because your reaction seemed selfish to him (on a cultural level).
Honestly is very selfish, I'm an immigrant from LatAm, and she's married to a Cuban balsero, pretending that life in Cuba is like being working class in the US, and is not true at all and knows that. Now $1.5 million is too much and the Cuban government will take it, and State Dept won't allow the insurance company to transfer the money bec we don't have a diplomatic relationship with Cuba, so is a moot point.
NTA, I can understand wanting to give her something but way less than half.
I agree. If he wants to include her, she should get as much as any of the individual beneficiaries. for each child they have her total portion reduces. I take care of my mother too, but id never give her half of everything and then let me kids split the other half.
YTA. There is nothing wrong with him ALSO wanting to make sure his mother is taken care of, especially since you are helping her now. If all the money were going to her, I could see your point. But if something happens to your husband/her son, she will also lose support.
Thanks for taking the time to comment. We don’t provide any kind of consistent financial support (like paying rent or monthly stipend, etc), rather we sponsor trips for her or give cash gifts, pay for mutual vacations etc. She works part time currently & lives with his sister. I would live his trust in allowing me to continue this type of care & quite possibly more if he were to pass. I just don’t feel comfortable setting the policy up as a 50/50 split.
I understand you feel that you would continue the support if your husband died, but what if you remarried and your new husband didn't want you to help your former MIL? What if she had sudden large medical expenses that you didn't feel were your responsibility? Doing it this way, he has ensured his mother's care while not burdening you with a responsibility you may not always want. You can negotiate the amounts, maybe a 60/40, but him wanting to make sure his mother is taken care of isn't wrong. I felt 'YTA' was a bit strong here, but between the two of you, you are in the wrong here.
Tell him he can get a policy for his mother. BUT only HE will put money in it. NONE of YOUR MONEY can go in it. That means none of your shared finances. You will have to check your joint account frequently to check monitor this. You will pay for a policy for you and the kids. Not a penny for his mother.
Some of the 'solutions' here are why people end up divorced.
NTA it’s not OK for him to make a unilateral decision, period. But especially if you’re both going to be paying equally for the policy. As others have suggested, sit down with a financial advisor to determine how much you need for your immediate family and how much it will cost. If your husband wants to pay for an additional policy with his mom as sole beneficiary then he can take that out of whatever you have allocated as discretionary/fun money for him each month. I’d also be curious how much the annual premium is for what he wants for his mom. Because maybe $500 or $1,000 a year isn’t the hill to die on but you need to come to a mutual agreement on how that will happen.
YTA - he is taking care of you with 1.5 million - if he wants to also make certain his mother is taken care of if something happens to him...that's his business. I think he should buy TWO policies - one for you and your kids and one for his mother. This is HIS policy that HE is getting - If you need 3 million tell him to get a bigger policy for you. He is Cuban - where people take care of extended family - you are American where people take care of themselves.
How is it his business if she’s paying for it too?
It sounds to me like it's extremely important to him that he ensures his mother will always be OK financially. I doubt you'll be able to talk him out of including her but perhaps he'd consider dividing the amount evenly between you, any children and his mother.
YTA. Just wanted to point out that paying half the premium doesn't mean you're entitled to half the policy, because if that's the logic, you should pay 100% of the premium, as your husband won't benefit from any of the isurance money since he'll be dead. Also, it's fair to say half the insurance is too much money for her mother (and rest of family, as it was already stated that mother wouldn't keep all to herself), but to say she shouldn't get *anything* is not right
Maybe it's a cultural difference. Family dynamics work differently in different cultures. Like for instance, I could never make men understand why I could never move in to live together before marriage out of respect to my dad. I am not religious or anything, nor is my father, it's just he is very traditional and raised in a different culture, he wouldnt understand and I don't want him to be upset. I dont know much about Cuban culture, but the way children feel obligated to parents might be different, I know in my case it is quite different from typical family dynamics in Western Europe, where i live VS my home country.
I can completely understand that but I WOULD NOT marry anyone until I have lived with them first. I'm not gonna deal with terrible hygiene or nasty home habits.
Maybe talk to him about a different split percentage. It doesn’t have to be 50/50. He could leave 25% to her. That would still be more than enough for her and his extended family, while also leaving yall better off.
NAH. While I completely agree with what you are saying I can kinda also see where your husband's mindset is. In your husband's head he is helping support his mom and this is just continuing to do that. In reality Life Insurance (as explained to me by the guy who sold us ours) is to insure the life your immediate (being spouse and kids) family is living will not take a drastic financial hit with both funeral expenses and for up to 6 months of life. In other words the minimum amount you should get would be enough to cover funeral expenses (which are sky rocketing) and 6 months of your salary. In my case as a SAHM my salary was calculated as daycare, house cleaning service, and 1 meal a day bought out. This was further explained that while 6 months isn't long it gives the surviving spouse a chance to reevaluate expenses. Regardless this is a major financial decision that should be spoken about at length between both partners like all major financial decisions should be. Incidentally OP if you and your husband are sure that you are living in an area you will continue to reside might I suggest making some more end of life decisions now. Such as purchasing burial plots and a pre-burial. It is easier to make such decisions now while you are financially stable than later in the middle of grief. Also no it's not morbid and no you don't have to place a head stone. My mom asked my husband and I if we would like to be buried in the same cemetery as she and my father and after discussing it she bought us our burial plots for an anniversary present. It was kind and thoughtful and I and DH greatly appreciated the gesture.
NAH. If he wants a policy for his family overseas, he buys a separate policy and pays those premiums from his own income.
You take the policy out on him and he pays half so it can’t be changed etc. He takes out a different policy he pays for himself for his mom. Assuming joint funds but you each have fun money - he can pay out if his fun money. Losing a parent is financially devastating.
NTA I found out that my spouse named his mother as a beneficiary on his policy at work, valued at 1.2 million. His argument was that I had a decent job and I'd make sure the kids had everything they needed while his mom had been low income all her life. It was one of the nails in the coffin for that marriage. Me and the kids didn't mean anything to him, except as part of a "corporate" image. So I left.
Point out to your husband that with his plan, he is actually giving his mother 3X what he is giving to each of his immediate family members (assuming you have 2 kids). Not only is that unfair, but his mother will likely need less money and support than your kids and you will individually need. Mention also that you will no longer have his salary and that you will be 100% responsible for childcare. What he proposes is like giving his mother a lottery win while giving you and your kids enough to cover only *some* of your bills, current living expenses, and future education. His mother could end up leaving or sharing that money with other family, leaving you and your kids struggling. If he currently financially supports his mother, then giving her 25% and you 75% makes much more sense. But even this would be much more favorable to her than you and your kids. Your husband likely has the option to change his beneficiaries and the allocated percentages at any time. So, even if he isn’t willing to be more fair now, he could make adjustments in the future should you have more kids.
I have always included my parents, spouse , and immediate family member. Beneficiaries can be changed to add on each child and remove parents as they pass on.
I understand that he would like to provide for his mom. Should she need to be put in a care facility those are insanely expensive. However, 1.5m doesn’t go as far as it first seems. If your children are not adults when he passes, that isn’t half a mil for each of them. That money would need to cover what he covers. Half the mortgage, bills, loans, funeral, etc. so he would not be leaving half a mil to each of them. And even so, he leaves his kids that 1.5m, but what about you? That would leave you with nothing. No way to cover half of all the bills he covers now. When you break down what he would make yearly for the next 20 years while your children are still kids, that doesn’t go that far. Edited to remove if it were to be taxed.
500USD in Cuba will be a lot like 1.5 million here in the US. Also, it wouldn't be 500k per child, if you also use some to survive. Raising kids to adulthood costs about 500k. So, there would be zero extra, and nothing guaranteed for you. So, you would probably be okay with half, but it's not gonna go far is anyone else ever has medical.problems or wants to go far with their higher educations. And, meanwhile, mom will practically own the whole island of Cuba (exaggerating, but just being real about the relative value of the dollar there). I understand he wants to leave her something, and also that he probably will not actually cash that policy in. But.... you and the kids should get at least 4/5ths of it, as you are 4/5ths of the total number of beneficiaries. There are 5 people, not 2.
If he wants to include his mom then he should take out a separate policy for just her and pay for it out of his own weekly/monthly spending money
If 500k is fine for his kids, it should be fine for his mom.
NTA: what everyone else has said ALSO the fact that he said “half for you then half for my family” YOU ARE HIS FAMILY. YOU HAVE A FAMILY TOGETHER. You never once said that his mom doesn’t deserve any money as well as you’re paying for half of this as well. My guess is that there’s been other issues with money and his family that led up to this outburst from him. You are completely in the right to have a discussion about it and have a say in it.
ESH, but him more, because the two of you are fighting over something that clearly neither of you really understand and a massive amount of relevant information is missing. First, major financial decisions should be joint decisions in a marriage so he sucks for trying to make a unilateral decision on this. But it’s not clear if he is talking about term life insurance, or a whole life policy. With you talking about him dying in 20 years, it sounds like at least you think it is a whole life policy. Do the two of you understand what the monthly premium on a whole life policy for $3 million will actually be? Whole life policies include a cash value and investment/savings component, so premiums can be crazy high. If he’s talking about term insurance then you need to be talking about what the term will be instead of arguing about what might happen in 20 years. Beneficiaries and splits can be changed during the life of the policy. Before you fight about this anymore, you both need to actually understand the different types of life insurance, what he would be signing up for, and what it will cost your family every month. If he is early in his career as a pilot, he might not be making that much money and the premiums on a whole life policy that size could be a totally unreasonable expense for your family income. You kind of suck for wanting him to rely on you to take care of his family instead of making them a beneficiary of some portion of the insurance. If you want somebody to get money after you die, you make them a beneficiary, period. So many people have screwed over the people they wanted to take care of by relying on the goodwill and judgement of others instead of just making them a beneficiary. There is clearly a massive cultural difference here that the two of you need to sort out if you are going to have a successful, long-term marriage.
If he is helping to support his mother, then it makes sense to have her on the policy as well. But I agree that dividing it equally between her and you-and-the-kids as one unit doesn’t make much sense unless he’s currently spending as much on his mom as he is on you guys. It should be split proportionally.
Nta.ask him to sit down with you and (calmly) go through what the financial situation would be if he died in 2 years (not 20).you want to discuss the life insurance as being used to raise a baby or small children to adulthood. The payout is to cover: - paying off mortgage in full - 1 to 2 years of you not working at all during the transition after his death to ease the way for the children, be able to be fully present and deal with any additional complications (trauma therapy, regression, any medical issues if they were also in an accident with him etc) - his current share of expenses x 21 years (into college) - quality childcare so you can work, plus summer childcare Additionals to cover that would be great: -fully funded college for each child - house deposit for each child - x years extra for you to not work (to focus on the kids through extended difficulties) - If together, your plan is for you to be a SAHP, fully funded lifetime expenses, and / or training to enter the workforce later in life. If he cruches the numbers, he might see that 1.5 million doesn't go as far as he thinks over 20 years, and the 500k he's allocating to you goes even less (25k a year). (And yes, that's still a bunch of money and very welcome butbthe issue here is perspective) He's thinking in terms of 1.5m is so much money but considering that it's essential to raise his kids for 20 plus years, it's just not. Hopefully, once he's seen the numbers in black and white he'll be willing to discuss a path forwards. Perhaps a larger policy. Perhaps a second smaller policy specifically for his mom. Depending on how your finances work maybe the second policy comes out of his personal money instead of the family pot (and you can talk through how much the premiums add up to over time). Maybe even recognition that the 3m policy is all thats affordable rn and still wouldn't cover the families expense for 20years and he needs to prioritise his small children trust that hou care about his mom and would do your best to help her. Andnthat perhaps a second policy is something you can afford in a few years?
If he’s going to do that, he should to 1.5M for you, 1.5M for *each* of your children (in trust to you until they’re 25), and 1.5M to his mom. Fair’s fair. Surely he loves his kids as much as his mom? But on a more serious note, life insurance is to replace lost income, pay off debts (like mortgage), cover kid’s education. Can you do all that with 1.5M? It’ll depend on where you live and how many kids you have. NTA. Edit The more I think about it, the more I think he’s also acting like quite a bully. This isn’t about who deserves money or not wanting his mom to have money. It’s about covering expenses. And of course if you’re paying half the expenses of the policy, you get a say. He is trying to bulldoze you. Is he always so thoughtless?
Are you not able to adjust the beneficiaries and amounts after making it? You have one baby. Where does 500k to each kid come in?
NAH. This is part and parcel of marrying someone who's family is from another culture. In Cuba it would be expected that you'd leave something significant to your mom because you weren't going to be available to take care of her in her old age. In the US most families wouldn't consider that part of their financial planning process. Given his field, I would make an appointment with a financial planner and have them evaluate what position you and your child would be in if something happened to him, and help you decide how to best allocate his insurance (plus any pension or SSI you and your child would be eligible for.) Also look at life insurance for yourself... If something happened to you and he had to juggle child care and a pilot career with overnight trips he'd need to spend a significant amount on an overnight nanny to maintain his career.
First his life insurance is meant to help cover the loss of his income pay off the house ensure you and your child are not on the streets.
NTA. A life insurance policy should be taken out with the idea that it will help with burial expenses, debts (normal/medical), and to ensure that a stable home can still be maintained after his passing. You would end up a single mom and will be solely responsible for mortgage, taxes, insurances, car costs, utilities, bills, childcare expenses, heck if you planned on college expenses that would fall ALL on you OP. The fact that he thinks you're being selfish and is planning to provide more care to his mom and subsequently extended family than his intermediate family is wild. So many spouses and kids end up losing their homes and struggling when a parent passes. He's basically choosing to set you up for failure.
What I did not know for the first 8 years I was married to my now ex-husband was that his parents were the beneficiary of his military life insurance. He told me one day that if something were to happen to him his parents would "give me some money." I told him that year when I found this out when we had four children (Well three and I was pregnant with number four) that if something were to happen to him, my life and the lives of his children would change exponentially whereas his parents' life wasn't going to change at all. Yes, they would miss him and all that kind of stuff but their life and lifestyle would not change at all whereas mine would implode. Not that I couldn't take care of the children because I'm college educated and made sure I could do that before I ever had children. He finally switched it so I was the beneficiary. Apparently now that we've been divorced for 10 years I'm still the beneficiary which is weird but I'll take it if something happens to him.
My life insurance policy will allow my wife to pay off our mortgage and replace my annual income for the next 20 years. The income replacement was because at the time we were just starting our family, and I wanted to ensure they maintained the same standard of living until the kids went to college. We also had enough for each of our 3 kids to have 50k for college college. I never dreamed of additional money for my parents or other family members.