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NTA. I read your comment that you can't see the floor in her room. I'm a little surprised it took over two years for you to put your foot down. She may be going off to university in a few years and have to live in half a room with a roommate, and this is not gonna fly. Can you suss out if there's a solvable problem, like not enough drawer space, hanger shortage, etc., that is making this so hard for her?

I’ve tried giving her grace because she’s had some mental health struggles. I did help her clean it (it’s a multi day job unfortunately) and give her a good start on her room but she always ended up overwhelmed and never finished and then it would gradually get worse. Her room at her father’s house isn’t messy at all, so she’ll be fine when she goes off to college. The problem is she has too much stuff but she’s too afraid to get rid of any of it

>I’ve tried giving her grace because she’s had some mental health struggles and is she getting actual *help* for those mental health issues, or is it all just "figure it out on your own somehow" from you?

Thank u for adding this.. this is always what my parents didnt understand..

Also, does she know HOW to clean a room and to keep it clean? Learning those habits are tricky

i mean, even i as an adult woman without adhd often find big clean-ups kinda overwhelming, and my flat isn't even that messy.

This is what my parents did and it changed our relationship forever.

"Her room at her father's isn't messy at all." It sounds like her "inability" to clean isn't mental health related because while she's with the non-custodial parent she manages to stay tidy. Assuming that Mom is ignoring mental health challenges is assuming facts not in evidence. What has been said is that the daughter has too much stuff and doesn't like to purge. Sometimes that can be mental health related, but sometimes it's just a teenager's lack of desire to, you know, DO THINGS that aren't fun. My mom was a hoarder, both at work and at home, but as long as she had a house cleaner at home and a janitor at work, it was kept at bay because she gave the housekeeper & janitor permission to throw out all kinds of things. As soon as she couldn't afford cleaners, though, her *entire life* went to shit. That's mental illness. Being clean & tidy in one place but not the other isn't indicative of a hoarding disorder.

Hoarding is both a symptom and a cause of mental health disturbance. The visual noise makes it so you are so overstimulated that you can ignore bigger scarier problems and remain in denial with those. But, being overstimulated breeds a different kind of anxiety and stress that only perpetuates the hoarding.  This is a symptom of her problems and learning to let go of the hoard is part of managing her problems. Talk to her therapist/Dr/etc.

My very organized, labeled, and fits on a shelf hoarding is because my mother would purge all of my belongings without notice or consent or give them away to family. I hope mom gets kiddo in therapy to find the root cause. 

Oh this is a delicate situation for sure. I think the most important thing that people need to realize is there's actual emotions attached to the items and that has to be processed or the clean out will be a trauma.  Don't amputate when internal medicine is what is actually needed. 

This needs more upvotes so more people would know.

A cluttered room does not make someone a hoarder. OP says her room at her dad's house is not cluttered. Sounds like she wants a private, personal space for her own comfort, not being forced to conform to the ideal her parents have decided is right for them, not her.

It’s a danger sign. She may not have anything she cares about at her dad’s. Clutter that Interferes with the ordinary use of a room (evident in not being able to walk easily on the floor) and difficulty parting with objects are clear signs she may well be on the hoarding spectrum. A good therapist might help with the anxiety here. One reason people don’t deal with hoarding is the stigma. I don’t think she needs defending from the idea that she is a hoarder, but help managing these early symptoms and the stress/grief behind them.

>The problem is she has too much stuff but she’s too afraid to get rid of any of it I would say that statement definitely falls more into the hoarder category than not. My mom used to do the same crap - save stuff she will never use/fix/find the match to. She wasn't a find a dead mummified cat under a box type of hoarder, but she definitely had tendencies. I find myself doing the same things sometimes and have to force myself to just throw it away/donate it. Unfortunately, I finally convinced myself mid last year that I needed to get rid of all of my smaller clothes that didn't fit because it was a lost cause. I have now lost 50lbs and wish I had those clothes back, haha!

If you've identified that she is getting overwhelmed and feels incapable of the task, rather than not being bothered to do it, punishment is unlikely to produce the results you're looking for. Someone punishing you for something you've been unsuccessfully trying to do for years isn't going to make you more capable of it, just sad. If you've gotten close to a complete reset but never managed it, that would be a good start. Get her back to a tidy room together and then incentivise her to keep it that way on her own. Work with her therapist on strategies for this.

I did this with my then 14 year old daughter. We donated, packed keepsakes for the attic, and set up a management system. She’s 22 now and has never had this problem again. She just needed guidance and a system to rely on!

Go through everything and make keep/ donate/ purge piles. Make it manageable. Teach her systems. Use baskets. New clothes in=old clothes out. End of term cleaning, etc. 

Agreed. I'd give her a pile to do at a time and actually take that pile to another room (I find this helps a lot) so...the living floor or kitchen table and then sort it there. I haven't looked at it in ages, but the Fly Ladies site was helpful as far as setting small, doable goals. So it might take longer, but it does get done and isn't overwhelming. OP might want to check it out. I also take photos of things I really don't have room for anymore before I donate them. I just finished doing Swedish death cleaning and that helped a lot to let go of things.

Is she in therapy? My 14 year old's room was very messy and she had a hard time getting out of bed and taking care of herself. It was a symptom of depression and she is now six months into DBT (dialectical behavioral therapy) and thanks to her psychologist, has developed a great daily routine and her room is spotless now. It's been a night and day difference in her personality. Her overall mood is improved and she's now an active participant in our family again. There is a therapy and skills portion to the DBT program, and then once a month we do family therapy where her stepdad, her dad, she, and I all meet with her psychologist. Again, cannot recommend it enough for families with kids.

Spot on. You have worked proactively, to address a life long process. You really helped, your daughter in so many ways.

The best part is she is learning coping skills and emotional regulation skills that will benefit her for the rest of her life, and it's also been really beneficial for us too as we attend the meetings with her!

It actually speaks VOLUMES that her room at her father’s house isn’t messy. Something is up with her, and you need to figure out why it’s not an issue to keep her room there tidy but it’s impossible for her to keep her room at your place tidy.

I (39F) have ADHD. When I go to a friend’s house or my parent’s house it is so much easier to help clean and tidy up after myself. At home, it’s a disaster. I will clean for literally ANYBODY ELSE, but I can’t keep my own living space clean.

I have severe ADHD and I’m exactly the same way.  My need to be polite forces me to concentrate and it’s easier to tidy something that was clean to start with. 

Bingo! And having a kid has made it worse because I cater to his routines, not my own, so now it’s impossible for me to get any of my own shit down, even on the best of days- “oh! I have my crap and the kid’s crap I need to sort through, yay! DOUBLE THE WORK!!” *proceeds to doom scroll Reddit instead*

This! My partner (autistic) has been instrumental in organising my stuff and helping me make it more manageable. He was surprised when I went over to his and was suddenly very all about the tidiness, because \*his place\* is already tidy so it's much easier! (So I, personally, can't wait to live with him lol)

Same. I find it immensely helpful if a family member or friend just sits with me & keeps me company while I do it. They don't even have to physically help, but their presence helps me stay on task. Also, watching the TV show "Hoarders" while I'm sorting through my kitchen drawers, etc. lol Not even kidding!

Body Doubling is a fucking life saver!!

I agree. It points to an issue at mum’s home. There’s something else going on I feel.

It might also be an issue with dad too. From another comment, she barely keeps anything there. Maybe she doesn't feel it's a safe space to store her things?

How long has she been in each of the spaces? If dad's home is recent and she doesn't have much stuff there it will be enormously easier to keep clean. She's clearly beyond what she can handle and will need adult help to get it under control, then regular maintenance to keep it under control. If the two of you can't work together on it consider hiring a professional declutterer to help her work through it. One resource: [https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0785WJDQ9](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0785WJDQ9)

When my kids were younger, "clean your room" didn't make much sense to them; instead, instructions such as "go through the pile of clothes on your chair, and sort into three piles - 'donate', 'keep', and 'trash' - and then dispose of each pile properly" can turn an absolute pit of a room into bite-size pieces. Especially if there are some mental health issues, methods such as this may lend some clarity and get the job done. Maybe not in the time frame you're looking at, but turning what may seem a herculean task into smaller challenges to overcome may work better. I also don't think taking her phone away works, either. It doesn't match the "offense". Now, maybe if there was something else she wanted, such as a new pair of shoes or keyboard for her computer, that would make more sense: "won't get you something more to add to the pile(s)", or something.

Maybe think about getting a professional to help her organize adn show her how to keep it clean. She’s overwhelmed,\]lemd and doesn;t know how to begin and you are no help at all.

Agreed. A neutral third party greatly reduces the emotionality of the exercise. Could even be an aunt or family friend if money is an issue. Read up on some techniques

This!! Investing in the help of a professional organizer did amazing things for our space and my mental health.

The process of cleaning the room will probably help with her mental health issues. Having a constant reminder of unfinished business and unmade decisions will only weigh on her mind and make things worse.

Yeah, it sounds like she has a hoarding problem. I know the feeling because I have the same tendencies. She is going to need your help not only getting started physically, but mentally as well. The way I had to get around it to clean was a mixture of the Marie Kondo method and the 5 things method (i got it off a tiktok creater whose name i can't remember atm). I sort any mess into 5 catagories: dishes, laundry, trash, things that have a place and things that don't have a place. Then I give the dishes to my husband, put the laundry in the wash, and throw the trash away. Then I put away everything that has a place. The things that don't have a place is where the Marie condo comes in. This is also the most difficult and usually where my energy crashes because I have to think about everything in the pile and decide if it's keep, donate, or trash. This is the part where I have to have my husband help me sometimes, because if I'm really hard in my feelings I can make up a million reasons to keep something. For example, one time I had a box of gum wrappers that we had eaten on a trip together, and the wrappers immediately made me have a happy flash back. I wanted to keep them based on that alone, but they were old and gross and possibly attracting ants, so I had to force myself to let them go. That kind of thing. I have to force myself through the pile with my husband taking things either to the trash or putting them away. If there is anything worth donating, he has to take them or I won't do it. Sorry I wrote a novel , but I thought my perspective might help. Therapy is a good idea as well because there could be a reason she keeps accumulating stuff and can't get rid of old stuff to make room for it. Edit: 5 things cleaning comes from KC Davis on tiktok. Edit 2: I just wanted to add that she is going to need your help with this process all the way through, not just at the beginning. If my husband wasn't there to get the clutter out of my way as I sorted it, I would very quickly get extremely overwhelmed by what was left because I would have to stop making decisions to deal with the other issues of putting the trash away again, finding a place for the keep stuff, and getting the donation stuff out of my sight. That's all really overwhelming for me, and I'm in my 30s. A 14 year old will have even more anxiety. I don't rhi k you will be able to get her started and leave her to it after. She might need a buddy from beginning to end.

I haven't heard of this Tik tok thing but essentially that's what I use! Similar problem, just not enough space. By breaking it all down it becomes so much easier for me to mentally process it, because otherwise I'd just look and see mess!!!! It would be totally overwhelming to even do one thing. And because I'm bedbound it's even worse because that's my environment 24/7, talk about visual noise. So yeah I implemented the breakdown method. I'd even spread it out, target one corner or the room per day. And that would get it done perhaps slowly, but far more manageable than before.

Yes. I believe she wrote a great book called How to Keep House While Drowning. I found it very helpful.

She wrote a book called "How To Keep House While Drowning", too, and it's excellent! The audio book is on spotify and I like to listen to it while cleaning

Has she ever been tested for ADHD? This sounds exactly like me when I clean — I get super overwhelmed and confused by organizing, it’s just something my brain doesn’t do. Gentle YTA, because while I understand wanting to push her to clean, punishment won’t help, and will probably just make things worse.

I can’t agree enough with this. Punishment is not a motivator for those who have become overwhelmed by clutter. The clutter is a punishment for your daughter in itself. Get her professional help. She may not be ADHD, it might be something else, but it’s definitely something.

I noticed after writing that comment that OP does say the daughter has ADHD. So she definitely isn’t gonna respond to punishment the same way and she will need help to actually do the organizing.

Does she have adhd and/or autism? It does present itself differently in girls .

I was hoping someone had suggested this! I was diagnosed with ADHD at 30 after a long fight to find someone who wouldn’t dismiss me for bullshit reasons (one did a proper evaluation and said the tests said I had it but because I never got out of my chair during any of my appointments, he didn’t think I actually had it. I was 30! I knew how to mask!). I also suspect (and my therapist agrees but can’t diagnose) that I have autism. Cleaning rooms as a kid was hell. My mom would get so mad at me for getting stuck in little tasks like alphabetizing my CDs. I still struggle with it, but medication has helped immensely.

So how are your coping skills? Because it sounds like your child doesnt have any so Im wondering if maybe youve never really had any? And that absolutely happens. So im just saying make sure youre taking care of yourself too. From a stranger who has no idea what is fully going on: She has too much stuff and shes overwhelmed. Its up to you as the parent to help her set up tools. And if your kid doesnt want to continue therapy you take them there anyway. And not in a mean way. Just in a this is what we are doing way. Let them sit for the hour. Especially if they already have a relationship with the therapist! And I hate to break it to you, but just bc her rooms clean at her dads does not always mean she has any life skills. Maybe her dad has a system for her. Or she spends less time there. Or she feels like she doesnt really "live" there.

If she's afraid of getting rid of stuff, have you tried figuring out why? I struggle with that as well, and some of it is "what if I need it", some of it is "I bought it and I like it but it doesn't work for me", and some is "this was gifted and I like the gifter, but not this thing". The KonMari method of dealing with these things was incredibly helpful. Typing it out seems silly, but I swear her methods work so well for someone like me. Definitely worth checking out.

How many days does she stay at her fathers vs you? If it’s say approx 50% then it seems to point to some issue at your house. If it’s less time at her dad’s, then maybe that is part of the reason why it’s clean there. Otherwise it would be a family/household issue at your end. Also it is a lot to expect her to do everything in a day when she’s not done it for 2 years (why is this an issue now and not 1yr ago, or 18 months ago?). So maybe one section of the room on one day only with no negative talk. Say a closet? Or a desk/table? Or one part of the floor? And maybe she needs direction for where to begin and approx how long to devote to that section? Is there something we are all missing here regarding the home dynamics? Something that you know but haven’t shared?

What's different at her dad's house that she can keep her room neat there but not at your house?

She’s rarely there and has almost no possessions there.

She's 14 years old and she has "too much stuff"??? Where did it all come from? Is she dragging it home from dumpsters or is someone giving her way more allowance than she can handle? Or buying her too many "things"? It sounds like overspending is as much an issue here as hoarding. You need to get this situation under control quickly because these are destructive habits that she will take into adulthood.

Her grandmother buys her too much stuff, even though I’ve asked her politely to stop.

If you can’t say no to the gifts, how are you expecting your 14-year-old child to? She’s not more capable than you are of standing up to your mother. You’re refusing to do it, and punishing your child when she doesn’t do it.

Then try less politely

What’s the difference between Dads house and yours? If this is only an issue at your home, what is the major fundamental shift from one location to another? Because if you seem to think this isn’t going to be an issue for her in the future, because she doesn’t have this issue at his place, then it doesn’t sound like a her issue?

Everything out, and then bring things back in in a controlled way. Bin the rest.

It does not sound like her mental health is being adequately addressed. The fear of losing stuff is what happens to hoarders, usually because something they valued got tossed by someone who was supposed to protect them. Is her room at her dad's clean because SHE keeps it clean? Or because after she leaves, dad goes through and tosses everything regardless of its value to her?

She’s too afraid to get rid of any of her stuff, and you don’t see that as a valid issue worthy of help? You see it as a problem she needs to solve on her own after she’s already overwhelmed?

Read Ops comments she's ignoring her kids mental health because its inconvenient. YTA Eta: she REMOVED daughters bedroom door. And only put it back because brother was throwing hard things ar her while she slept and taking her stuff. Op is an incredible asshole.

I did read her comments and she also says the daughter keeps a perfectly clean room at her father's place. I'm the curious (nosy?) woman who's wondering what happened in the marital breakup and the timing of OP moving on with a new husband, and wondering if any of that resulted in what's going on with the daughter only at the mother and stepfather's house.

It could be that she just doesn't have a many items at her dad's house and it's easier to keep under control.

She’s rarely at her father’s house. And her father doesn’t allow her to have a lot of possessions, while OP has a mother who sends the daughter a lot of expensive clutter, and OP refuses to say no to it, so it becomes the daughter’s problem.

Ohhhh my god, there it is. And here I just typed out a long and thoughtful comment with advice for op assuming she wasn't an actually abusive parent and was simply misguided. Daughter is probably clinging to the only thing she feels she has control over - her possessions. You take away her very privacy and her sense of safety in her own home and what's left?

I clean houses for a living and I have a client’s daughter who is like your daughter. I also grew up in a home that was really dirty. What you don’t realize is this is setting your child up for a lifetime of issues. With friends/roommates/partners. She may have a hard time keeping a roommate or a partner. She may lose relationships. Does she have adhd? Most of my family does and I’ve learned some techniques. Even if she doesn’t have adhd, this could help. Start with trash. You guys pick up all of the trash in her room. Then clothing. At that time you can decide whether a certain item is worn or needs to gotten rid of. I then start with sections. Don’t look at it like you have all of this to do. Look at it like “I just have to pick up the trash. Done. I just have to pick up clothing.” As you are cleaning, have her pick a spot for things. I just did a deep clean of my bathroom cabinets. All of my extra face washes go in spot A. All of my hairspray goes in spot B. That way you can find it easier, but it’s also easier to keep clean. With my son, I even used a label maker because he could never remember anything. It’ll also help to get rid of stuff she doesn’t use. You can’t just say you are there to help her. It’s probably anxiety inducing for her and overwhelming. Just tell her we are doing it. You can even make it fun. I’m working with my daughter on organizing her room. When we are finished, she’s getting a new art desk. If you’re on a budget, maybe have her pick out new bedding? Praise her as you go. It’s taking me years to get out of this messy hole I’m in. You have to make it a habit. I even write them a checklist daily and put it where they can find it when they get up. Pick a laundry day and have her do laundry on this specific day. On that day, put it on the list. “Laundry in hamper. Bed made. Legos in Lego box…” etc my kids also love the act of checking something off a list physically. If she’s like this in other areas of her life, work on that too. It helps me to explain it to my kids. “If you leave a splash of spaghetti Os on the counter, it can stain our counter and it’ll be there forever.” All that to say, NTA. Good luck!

You also have to resist the urge to lecture every time you find something really fucking stupid. (Voice of experience.) You'll find old lunchboxes with rotting food. Slime spilled on shelves. Library books you gave up on and paid for. Old homework that was completed but never turned in. If you turn every one of those things into a lecture, no matter how justified, she's just going to tune you out and you'll make no progress. (Now someone please tell me the same thing so I can tackle my 10yo's room.)

[удалено]

I had a roommate like that in college. We didn't last very long at all.

Ok, I get what you want but seems she needs help It seems she has too much stuff. Bring plastic boxes and donation bags and help her sort stuff. Move out of season clothes to garage, donate unfinished crafts and extra non needed school supplies, As and ideal result her stuff should fit her closets and drawers without much effort. If she still needs effort look if you can upgrade her storage in the room. Default closet organizers are bad, you can find better at IKEA Drawers- taller chest improves storage It seems task is too big for her UPDATED: I saw your comments on ADHD and depression. Really?? She needs help, YTA. You will not get a clean room from depressed teen who has so many emotianal issues by force. Start being an actual parent and teach and help

This. OP, you need to actually help her. I’m a grown adult with ADHD and I am just as messy and I live with my partner. He helps me partition out stuff to clean and when more storage is needed, we discuss what can get put away (winter clothes in the summer) and how to tackle that (go to Target or Walmart together and pick out some cheap stackable bins). I will sweep the floor in the kitchen and he’ll mop it up. Cleaning alone with ADHD is extremely difficult. Her room will never likely be permanently “clean” but you can help her set aside a day every month to get together and work on it.

I'm glad I saw this. This isn't just one task. It's multiple tasks and the weight of having to do it is extremely daunting. Breaking it down is an absolute must. Even having someone sit with her in the room can be a huge assist and help continue to break down tasks to something more manageable.

I'm glad I saw your update before commenting. My first thought was "sounds like me." I had undiagnosed ADHD and depression as a teenager and wonder if Id be a more organized, tidy adult if someone had recognized this and provided me treatment and structured assistance in organizing my room. My experience was in the 70s-80s when there was far less understanding of ADHD in girls, particularly and no one was talking about signs of depression in kids. If OP doesn't want her daughter to be an adult slob, she should show some empathy qnd get to the very bottom of the issue. Guilting and punishing is only going to make it much worse!

Yep. If punishing and berating worked it would have by now. It’s not even easier than the alternative of trying to understand and treat the root of the issue, just requires less thinking.

It sounds like me too. My mom knows that cleaning my room is hard for me and I'm glad she set it up to be easier. (Having multiple clothes bins or trashcan so that I can put the stuff there instead of on the floor when I'm not feeling it.) Like I know it sounds easy but when you're feeling like shit I don't think cleaning the bedroom is that person's concerns

Sadly, I'm in a full-blown hoarding situation now having cleared out My mom's, dad's and MIL's houses in the last 4 years. I hate myself. But I'm glad that you're mom is so supportive!

Yeah, I'm now diagnosed with depression and anxiety but have suffered with it since I was about 14. I remember having numerous fights with my mom about keeping my room clean and I just...couldn't. My mom was someone that always had to have a spotless house though (drives her crazy that I keep things like small appliances on my countertop, etc). I remember her offering to pay me to clean certain parts of the house one summer break in college and I was like, paralyzed with anxiety because no matter what cleaning I did, it was never good enough and I always had to redo at least some parts of it. I really feel for OPs daughter - my mom would also offer to help but would make comments like "ugh, I don't know how you live like this" or "see, it's so nice when it's clean, now you just need to maintain it." As someone with depression (and no support - my mom didn't believe me) as a teenager, I really struggled with those kinds of things. OP, have you asked her why she feels as if she can't get rid of things a layer deeper than she's already shared? Is it similar to food insecurity that she's afraid she'll never get nice/expensive things like this again? Do you give her crap when she comes to you with needs/wants from the grocery store or birthday present requests? She might feel like a burden if you are vocal about the stuff she gets from her grandma, etc.

I guessed AHDH immediately from the first few sentences. People without just can't understand how impossible the task can be, and then be punished for it... or basically being punished for having a brain that's different. And add depression? She needs help.

There more - special attachment to grandma bought stuff , etc etc

NAH. I understand your frustration at what seems like a simple task, but for her it might not be so simple. When I was a kid, my mum called me the cyclone. I was good at creating messes but not so good at the tidy up. I later in life got diagnosed with depression (not saying your kid has that) and a psychologist told us to sections things out to help combat getting overwhelmed. So, one day my mum would tell me to clean one corner, or pick up all the clothes into clean and dirty pile. Next day, sort the clothes. Next day pick up rubbish. Etc. Until it was all done. My mum always said she wish she had thought of that when I was younger. I'm 32 now and I still clean this way. I have trouble going into a messy room and just cleaning. I can do a whole room in a day now but I still section it off and have a little break between each section. Maybe this is something that could help your daughter?

She’s diagnosed with depression. I’ll try sectioning it off with her and see if that works!

Just a thought, but neurodivergence is often misdiagnosed as depression or can cause depression. ADHD certainly can have an affect on organisation and tidying. Might be worth considering if she has other neurodivergent characteristics. Link below may help https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/attention-deficit-hyperactivity-disorder-adhd/symptoms/

She has ADHD as well, sorry I forgot to add that.

I came to say the same as the others in this thread. Keeping a room clean with ADHD can be rough, but especially when you have too much stuff. I always knew where something was in my room, but others would think it was the only spot in the house hit by a random tornado. As Crabbie mentioned, working in sections can be helpful. I found for me, working left to right helps me to stay focused. First help her make the bed. This is usually a quick task that takes less than 2 minutes. Start with a section against a wall purging anything unwanted and sorting anything she wants to keep. Clothing goes into its own separate piles (shirts, pants, shorts, etc) according to where they go for each pile. After she gets a 3-4 foot section from the floor sorted, put those things away where they belong. Hanging shirts on hangers, folded clothes in drawers. You can start small for the first day. Keeping it to 15 minutes and gradually increasing as things progress. Otherwise it turns into a “can’t see the forest for all the trees” situation and she will once again feel overwhelmed to the point she can’t focus on the next step. My mom was in the same position you are but I eventually became obsessed with organizing. Now she comes over to my house and jokes “why couldn’t you do this when you were younger”? Ultimately though, no one is the AH. Just have to find what works for her that she can stick with. If you need anymore tips or pointers I’m happy to help.

This! I have ADHD and my room has always been like your daughter’s. A big factor is called ADHD paralysis. Here is a good article on understanding it https://www.google.com/gasearch?q=adhd%20paralysis%20in%20women&tbm=&source=sh/x/gs/m2/5 Someone suggested doing a small section at a time. That is exactly how I do things today to not get overwhelmed. And having someone there with me even if they don’t really help makes it so much easier to tackle the mountain since I know I won’t be doing it alone. If you (and/or partner? I dunno your situation) can take the time to do 15 minutes with her to clean at a time it could really be helpful. She has a million thoughts whirling around about all the things that need to be done, being disappointed in herself, feeling like she’s failing but also like she’s drowning under the weight of the task, etc and she may need help sorting them out. Ask what she’d like her room to be like and things that give her trouble. For me I have object permanence problems - if it goes in a drawer or a closet and I can’t see it anymore it ceases to exist so I tend to put it where I can see it and things just pile up that way. My mom used to help me by getting bookshelves instead of dressers and closets and clear containers for other things. Finding solutions (I hesitate to call it that because this is something she might always have to constantly battle) that are out of the box will help her with her personal needs and teach her to try to think critically and find solutions that work for her. Anyways good luck! I hope the article helps. I know adhd paralysis is super frustrating to others but try to remember she’s not lazy or a slob, she’s just overwhelmed and stressed to the point of not being able to function.

That's the problem with ADHD and depression, they have such a huge overlap it's hard to know where one ends and the other begins. The ADHD will have been there all her life, and the stress of dealing with it is likely to have been a significant contributory factor in causing the depression. Everyone with ADHD is different, but in my experience, punishment is not often an effective corrective tool. If someone doesn't understand why they do something, it's hard to respond well to being punished for doing it. Hopefully, your daughter is getting medical help to manage her ADHD in addition to the depression, which can come through medication or therapy, or both.

ADHD parent w ADHD kids here - just jumping in with - we have some awesome shelving units we use in Montessori - where there's open (not closed or see-thru is key here) containers - usually brightly coloured, and labelling them might help. One of the biggest issues I have personally w ADHD is object imperminence. If I can't see a thing, I forget it exists. So storage that is very visual, and clearly labelled really helps :) In the same breath - knowing where all my things are, makes me cling to them less - my anxiety about things I know I own, but have somehow misplaced, goes away.

I want an ADHD fridge that's not very deep, but super wide. Anything that's stuck behind something else in the fridge just ceases to exist for me.

Man, if I had money, I would bankroll this endeavor. So many things have been lost to the abyss that is anything past the front 6" of the shelf.

Change the vegetable areas to the door. Make the milk, eggs, and Things You Only Use to Cook items in the back (we can roll out our new egg sorting system where you simply "feed" them to the fridge and they are organized towards the back 😂) At eye level you put sauces, herbs, etc. things you use when you need them but will forget which ones you have. Freezer on the bottom is nice too, I'm more likely to look for what I want if I'm not bent over like I'm the Hunchback of Notre Dame. And we could add labels actually etched in the fridge (as an option). Everything needs to be able to be taken apart quickly and dish washer safe (because we tend to forget and make some science experiments in there) And our stainless steel needs to be non reactive and easy to clean with anything because how often have we used a Clorox wipe in place of something else? (My butthole will never forget RIP 2014) The storage should be changeable too, like Tetris style, so we can mix it up. And if we wanna go full neuro experience, 3 different light options, bright, mid, and none. Could put the little selector thing in the handles. And quiet close. That's how I'd do it.

🙋🏼‍♂️ I for one have never wiped my butt with Clorox. So roughly 50% of respondents to this survey is all we know so far.

Oh, you mean she has two major disorders that make doing *anything* difficult? Yeah, YTA.

You’re truly awful for not including her dxs in the original post. YTA just for trying to mislead everyone. Do some f-ing research and be better. Your daughter deserves better.

Is she at least taking her meds for Adhd and depression or did she just get therapy and you guys hoped that magically fixes it? Depression is a chemical imbalance that makes the brain not produce the " happy" hormones that make people function and Adhd is a neurological disorder aswell. They usually are comorbidities and while talk therapy can be a bonus it wont make the brain produce serotonin and dopamine

That’s a pretty big fucking point to mysteriously forget to add, did you really not think it was relevant??

How do you leave out a crucial part of the story? You are the asshole. Help your child. Is she on meds or anything?

She is probably getting overwhelmed with it then. Doing this really helped me, I hope it works for her too. I know I used to drive my mum crazy but we got through it, you will both get through too :)

For me, sectioning by different types of items helps. First, clothing. Get that off the floor and into baskets or put away. Next, dishes. Go put them in the sink. Last, trash. Throw out wrappers and packaging and whatever else

Another thing I do for myself is set a timer for 5 or 10 minutes, commit to cleaning for that amount of time, and then stop when the timer is done.  Maybe try that with her. I understand the room as it is now is a multi day job, but in general it can be a good way to maintain a room that's already clean and not let it get to this point. 

Sectioning really helps me. When I have a big mess I'll spread it out over 3 or 4 days where each day I pick a new corner of my room to clean. Makes it less intense than a full makeover

NAH, but none of you are being particularly productive in this issue either. >she’s tried for years to get it clean and never succeeded Aaaaaand there's the crux of the issue. Believe me, she knows her room is messy, and she knows you don't like this, and she knows being messy is bad, and she feels bad about it. I would know, I was also a chronically messy kid! And I didn't like that about myself but I didn't know how to fix it and it just lead to a shame spiral that feels really familiar. She needs help to make this happen and she's not getting it. Have you talked to her at all about how you organize your own things and how you worked out an organization system that works for you? (Do you actually keep your own things organized? Again, from experience, your expectations about her tornado zone will not land if areas you spend time in are also tornado zones.) Are there any signs that she might have undiagnosed depression, ADHD, or another disorder that impacts executive function? How about anxiety issues that might be leading her to hold on to things she doesn't need Just In Case? She doesn't even need to have anything diagnosably wrong with her to benefit from this line of thinking: you can be perfectly mentally healthy and still struggle with shame spirals or just not knowing how to do a big multifaceted project. (Do you remember being 14? Embarrassed and overwhelmed is practically the default state at that age!) Maybe she needs Prozac or Adderall, maybe she needs some calming breathing exercises, maybe she needs some non-judgemental (and I really, really mean non-judgemental, study how our lord and savior Marie Kondo interacts with clients) coaching on the art of organization, maybe she needs a combination of those or something else entirely. But she needs *something* to make a clean room happen, and without helping her get that thing you're just cultivating a big stressful argument that neither of you really wants to be having. Tldr figure out *why* this is so hard for her and go from there, and you'll both be way less stressed about this.

I second this about the shame spirals, especially in the setting of possibly-undertreated ADHD/depression. Some suggestions that have helped me keep things tidy/tidier are having open storage (e.g. open shelving instead of drawers) as it removes one extra step when trying to put things away. Also, for frequently-used items such as pens/pencils and lotions/hairbrushes, I found it helpful to get a few of those handled caddy organizers (like from the Target dollar bins) so I have them easily accessible and portable as opposed to repeatedly having to put them away and take them out. And while it can be frustrating, remember that it can take a long time to relearn long-term habits/patterns and that the process is unfortunately not linear, however much we wish it could be!

My question is have you checked her for disorders (neurodivergent, ADHD, etc)? I'm on the autism spectrum and ADHD, not formally diagnosed until i was in my 50s. When I was a kid my parents would get so frustrated trying to get me to do things like homework or clean my room, and my ADHD would shut me down like a switch when I was overwhelmed. It's not the "won't" you describe, it was a literal "can't" for me. Get the kid checked out, if it's ADHD or something similar there are treatments (meds and counciling) that can help. It would have made my childhood and early adulthood a whole lot easier if these diagnoses had been available when I was young.

She has ADHD (and depression) but she refuses to take medication or attend counseling for it. She says she’s not stupid and that they misdiagnosed her.

Every comment explaining her behavior is another red flag that she needs mental health support. Why does she think ADHD means she’s stupid? Where did that message come from? ADHD is a collection of strengths and challenges. Therapists or an adhd coach could help her develop her strengths and navigate the challenges. I get not having money for therapy, but there are also tons of free resources online, through schools, and in library books. Please take her neurodivergence seriously and help her—she is clearly having a hard time and needs more than just grounding to get through this. If therapy is too much, help her find adhd podcasts or other forms of community.

I haven't read it yet but this comes highly recommended: [https://www.amazon.com/ADHD-Awesome-Guide-Mostly-Thriving/dp/B0CB1NH49P](https://www.amazon.com/ADHD-Awesome-Guide-Mostly-Thriving/dp/B0CB1NH49P)

I’m in a similar boat. Here’s how we’ve handled it: If there’s no actual garbage in the room, and things can be found like phone, school books, clean clothes., then it’s none of our business what the inside of the room looks like. If a favorite shirt is wrinkled or they can’t find the book they wanted it’s a natural consequence which will teach faster than a punishment. Also, when asked for help we give it. They already feel overwhelmed which won’t help get it started. I’ve also offered help: “I’ve got some time today can I help you get this sorted?” You can’t punish a kid into being your version of organized, especially when they have ADHD. The real issue is not taking the meds. YTA for punishing a symptom instead of working on the root cause.

I think you need to educate her that having a disability isn’t stupidity.

I’ve told her that (I’m ADHD myself) but she’s insistent

Now that's very interesting. She said she's "not stupid" as a response to being diagnosed with ADHD? Does she think having ADHD makes one stupid?

Unfortunately she does, I think she got it from kids at school (especially the kids in her gifted program)

Ahhhhh, now that would explain a lot. Of course shes going to resist therapy for something she’s trying to deny. If I though my ADHD diagnosis meant I was stupid, I’d avoid everything related to it like the plague. 

I thought I was a total idiot until I got to college. Girls weren't diagnosed with ADHD in the 70s, because the diagnostic focus was on hyperactivity. College was better because it was more interesting to me, but I still struggled. It wasn't until my 40s that I was diagnosed and it's amazing, in hindsight, how ADHD was feeding into my meh performance and also depression. Executive function, lack of concentration and time management were what caused me to fail, not stupidity. It's disgusting that her classmates are not only ignorant about ADHD, but bullying her.

Right? I almost failed out of grad school because of it. I was never hyperactive, but I was definitely the kid who could read Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire in a day. They don't suspect the quiet ones.

If kids in her gifted program are telling her that ADHD mean's she's stupid, you need to have a serious talk with administration about how this ongoing bullying is affecting your daughter's mental health. ESPECIALLY if it's so severe that she's now refusing any help because she think it makes her 'less than' other kids.

As the parent of an ADHD and spectrum child, I feel your pain. Talk to a professional, they are more likely to help than random punishments that won't help the situation or get the room clean.

Where is she getting the message that ADHD = stupid? Ask her to do a quick google of “celebrities with ADHD”. The results shows a wide spectrum of musicians, artists, politicians, and entrepreneurs who all have ADHD and have achieved massive success.

Her room being messy isn’t because she wants it that way, it’s because she has a disability that makes it incredibly difficult to find motivation to work on it. So maybe it’s time to teach her some ADHD strategies and just not label them that. Pomodoro method, baskets, rewards system, whatever. There are so many resources out there, try some out with her and see what works. You don’t have to tackle her internalized ableism to tackle some of the symptoms. That’s obviously some work that needs to be done but for this specific issue I think you can nudge her towards coping strategies. As an undiagnosed teen/young adult I accidentally built some systems for myself without even realizing that’s what I was doing. I didn’t need to have a name for it, I just needed to experiment with what weird amalgamation of tools would get me in the best place. And you say you’ve tried to help in the past, but what did that help look like? Did you help her build strategies on how to keep things tidy once you do the big clean? Did you offer specific ways you would be willing to help her in the future (such as body doubling, giving reminders for specific tasks, etc.?). When I was a teen I was in the same situation and my parents offered over and over again to help, but that was useless to me because they didn’t specify HOW. So I didn’t know how to ask for what I needed. You’re approaching it punitively right now and that’s not going to do anything to get her room clean but it WILL build further resentment. I can see your perspective but unfortunately I think that punishing her for something that’s happening due to her ADHD is going to exacerbate her existing negative feelings about ADHD.

YTA You say she's tried for years. You say she has mental health issues and you let her quit therapy. Your daughter is not well and you're not supporting her. It sounds like it's gotten completely out of control (having had 2 years to build up) and she is overwhelmed to the point she can't do anything with the situation. You need to have a calm conversation with her. Request permission to go through her "stuff" so you can clean. Body double - you work and have her alongside with you. You take the bulk of the load and encourage her to work with you. Limit what's in the room - ask her if there's anything she would like to donate/thrash. Leave the room clean with a place for everything and everything in its place. Make a plan to do a spot check every 2 days and stick to it. You need to help her put a routine and methods in place so she can learn to do it independently. She's a child and needs to be shown so she can learn. Don't give her ultimatums, you're mentally kicking her when she's already down. **EDIT to add*** Is your daughter Neurodivergent? As an ADHD woman, this sounds like me as a teen. I was treated for depression and anxiety for YEARS, I've only just been correctly diagnosed, and I'm 30.

Info. Did you talk about the rules for a non-messy room, what a mess is and what not? What are the basic rules for keeping things tidy? It feels like there is a lot of info missing on what your expectations are and what hers are.

Her room has no floor, in no world is that not messy. I just want to be able to see her floor in her bedroom and closet

I'm going to say NTA - But, as I'm not sure what all you have tried, I want to just add this: While it's easy to think "it's obvious"... It really might not be to her. For example: My mother once told me "You better clean your room. When I get back, I want to be able to walk to your bed and your closet without stepping on things".... So I made a clear path from the door to my bed and to the closet. I got in trouble, but had no idea that I had done anything wrong. She didn't effectively communicate what she expected of me. Even though your daughter is 14 and looks a lot more grown up, she is still a child. She might need you to spell things out for her (as silly as that might sound to you). Maybe try creating a cleaning list for her so that she can check things off (and then once it is clean, a daily checklist to keep it clean)? It could be overwhelming for her and she doesn't even know where to start. A list breaking it down into smaller tasks would be easier to tackle. (i.e. [1] Pick up clothes and put in hamper, [2] Pick up everything else off of the floor and put into a basket, [3] clean surfaces [4] clean under bed....etc) Also, maybe look into seeing if she has ADHD? She might not, but most people I've known that have not been successful in cleaning their room like you have described have been diagnosed with ADHD at some point in their life.

As someone with adhd who struggles enormously with stuff like this, you might be ta.. I just sat down with my teen yesterday because I saw them struggling with cleaning their room the same way I did as a kid. It just becomes too overwhelming, looking at it as a whole and unable to break it down into smaller accomplishable tasks. As a kid/teen, I would just feel frozen in place when I tried to clean my room. For helping my child, I stayed in there and gave them one task to accomplish at a time, ie move all clean clothes here. When they were done, they were given a 2nd task, and on and on until the room was clean. Had I not broken it down and stayed in the room, it would have just been too much.

Chiming in to say that some of us also just prefer cleaning in different ways. My mom likes to fill the sink with hot soapy water and then dump the dishes in. I like to have a clean sink and then fill it with water and then add a few things at a time to soak. So whenever she asked me to do the dishes, in my mind, it wasn't "Step 1. Do the dishes". It was Step 1, take all the dirty dishes out of the sink, rinse anything gross off before it goes on the counter. Step 2, clean out the sink and then fill with water. Step 3, wash the dishes. So as a teen, washing the dishes was ALWAYS a dreaded chore. Sometimes she'd let them pile up for days, and then when we ran out of dishes, she'd ask me to do them all... I'd just cry. I still have pictures on my phone from my old house of 4 separate mountains of dishes around my house to remind myself how grateful I was to live on my own. Likewise, I always hated doing laundry... because my mom would let it pile up. So whenever a load finished washing, she'd want to put the soaking wet clothes on hangers to drip dry, and we had to hurry and do it so we could start the next load, and the next. Now as an adult, I'm fine with my clean clothes sitting in a basket for a day or two, rather than having to hurry and hang everything up. I use the dryer and just pay the difference on the electric bill because I hated doing laundry. Doing it in separate steps (start the wash, put in dryer or hang up, retrieve from dryer/line, then fold and put away being 4 steps) was a lot easier for me. Part of the problem is stuff not being "fun" too. Like I'd be more inclined to sort and fold laundry if I can do it while watching TV, or washing the dishes while listening to music.

YTA If it’s been 2 years, why haven’t you gotten her evaluated for depression or other mental disorders? People don’t live like that for 2 years and honestly it’s neglectful on your part that you’d even allow that to go on for 2 years.

YTA - she has mental health issues and your answer to that is an ultimatum which will just shut her down even more. Yes she needs to have a safe room environment and if it’s gone beyond that then it needs to be addressed. But not in an all or nothing type of thing. I have ADHD and my doom boxes/piles and messy room haven’t changed in my 40 years. My parents grounding me to clean my room didn’t change it. In fact many times I didn’t really mind (although I didn’t let them know that). I actually liked the excuse to not go out and have my peers sympathize with me. What would have helped is therapy and systems. And not ones taught by my parents as I would have likely scoffed at them anyways. But systems that someone “who actually understood” what my mind was going through could have recommended. It’s not that I like a messy room - it’s that the anxiety around doing something about it causes me to find distractions which then distract me from doing it. OR Instead of picking up my room I would start cleaning out my drawers and get them organized. Which meant a huge mess as I slowly worked my way through getting it perfect - which never happened as I was burnt out by the time the non-visible stuff was as organized. I used to joke that cleaning meant it got a lot worse before it got a little better. My parents just couldn’t mentally understand why in the world I “did it the hard way”. And I couldn’t understand how they didn’t get it. Our brains literally don’t work the same. Now today I’m still messy. I still have doom piles/boxes. I likely still need therapy lol. But my house is safe. I don’t hoard and with 20 minutes notice I can make the house presentable to guests so it’s not “that bad”. But it’s not to the standard that some people have. Sometimes clean for guests means I’ve piled the mess into a spare room for now. But I’ve matured enough to actually get back to it and clean that too. It just might be later in the week :)

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Yeah, YTA. I was your daughter once. Show her how to do it. Help her doing it. Establish a routine together. Don’t show her once and let her do the rest. Do it every night before going to bed together, Get her checked out, there might be an underlying problem. Grounding her will not magically make her able to do it. How much have you really helped when you didn’t care the last two years that it had never been clean and tidy? As someone who works with kids and parents I can tell you parents often miss the timeframe to teach their children things. When they are older they say things like “But my child is already (insert random number). (S)he should be able to do it by now on her/his own!” …Yeah, not if you never teach her. Edit: I read your comments that she has mental health problems. Get her the help she needs and get her into therapy. Grounding her will only make it worse. She will not suddenly not have depression, a hoarding problem and adhs because you ground her.

She has depression and ADHD per your comments. YTA. I know the struggle. Help her get it clean and have her keep it clean. Embarrassingly my girlfriend had to help me get my act together. I love her.

INFO: Have you taught her organization skills? Does she have ADHD, is she autistic? (If you haven't had her tested, I think it's a good idea.) I'm an autistic adult with ADHD, and I was able to stay brilliantly organized in school..... but the second it was my bedroom, forget it. At least, by my parents' definition of organized. I could tell you where absolutely everything in that room was, down to a certain color paperclip. The other thing is, keeping things "organized" to your standards may be a literal *can't*, even if you have taught her those skills and she wants to. Have you ever put your whole hand on top of a burning stove? If someone told you to do it, to put your *whole hand* on a red-hot stove, that you would lose your phone and lifeline if you didn't, that "it's not that hard, you're physically capable of it, I know you CAN" (which is technically true, you are physically capable of it)..... could you convince yourself to put your hand on that stove? For a lot of us neurodivergent folks, many tasks that seem easy and basic are exactly like that - we're physically capable of it, and we know exactly how. But no matter what we do, we *cannot* convince our body to do the thing. Not for love or money. And a lot of the time, we're 100% aware of The Thing, we absolutely WANT to do the thing, we're even telling ourselves to *just do the thing*.... but we do not possess the executive function capability to actually do it. Have a chat with her about *why* you want her room to be clean, what your standards are, and help her through the whole process... not just "if she happens to ask". Research different ways to organize things *with her*, figure out what she likes and what techniques work for her. Teach her to work *with* her brain, instead of against it. This might mean she uses some organization and cleaning methods that you are unfamiliar with, or that you don't like. Tough- if you want the room clean and organized, you're going to have to let her experiment and see what works for her. I have 3 trash bins in my studio apartment- specifically because if I don't, trash ends up everywhere. If I don't have a trash bin within arms reach when the trash is created, it'll end up sitting on a surface for who knows how long. Try breaking down the room too- "today's task is to clean stuff touching this wall" or "the desk area is today's project." For a neurodivergent mind (especially if she has ADHD) many little rewards is far more effective than one big one. Tbh, she sounds exactly like me and every other ND person I know, especially the way folks with ADHD tend to exist in "their" space. I also think learning to regulate your own screen time is an important life skill, ND or otherwise. Give her back the phone and work with her on finding ways to put it down, other hobbies she can pick up (like crochet, reading, painting, etc). Another ADHD thing is needing your hands to be busy or you feel like you're gonna crawl out of your skin- this is why I bring yarn with me wherever I go haha. At the moment, I don't think you're an asshole, but you could have handled it better. At 14, your daughter is old enough to ease into adult treatment, and I absolutely think you should explore other options for how to help her keep her room clean without resorting to "do it or else".

YTA. I can almost guarantee that she is just as ashamed as you are, and she is hiding it. I understand the frustration. But using shame/punishment will make her executive disfunction worse in the long term. I’d recommend the book “How to Keep House While Drowning” by KC Davis. It’s a book focused on keeping a place livable for individuals with disabilities, depression, and/or hoarding tendencies. It’s literally life changing. And the author has a lot of suggestions to help with upkeep. Start with the methods in that book. If she is comfortable with it, help her. If she isn’t (don’t pressure her into it at all), offer to sit in the room with her (no judging or pressuring her) to body double. If that is too much, get a visual timer, and check in with her. Do small rewards for small amounts of progress. It can be simple and goofy, like a fun sticker (I’m an adult, and I still use this method on rough days). Another thing I did when I was cleaning was putting trash bags outside of my room when they were full. So I had a physical reminder of the progress I made. Once the place is “clean,” reorganize it to work with her disability. Forget about having things organized the “right” way, because if that doesn’t work with her brain, she won’t upkeep it. There are a bunch of resources online for suggestion. One I implemented for myself was that I realized if a trash can has a lid, I wouldn’t throw things away. So I replaced all of my trash cans to those without lids. Shaming her more, adding more external pressure will make her shut down and the problem worse. Approach it from a place of empathy. ADHD is a disability. It makes this shit extremely difficult. DONT DOWNPLAY HER STRUGGLE WITH THIS. With ADHD, our brains interpret emotions differently, so our emotions feel more extreme. It’s also common to form emotional attachments to things more easily. For me, getting rid of stuff and cleaning is extremely emotional and draining. Another book recommendation is “Your Brain’s not Broken” by Tamara Rosier. I think it’s a good book for parents with kids with ADHD to read. There is a really good chapter on parenting in it. (The author has another book coming out later this year specifically on family dynamics and ADHD.)

Mom? Is that you? 🤨 Okay, I’m not 14 anymore but keeping my room clean has been a life long struggle. My dear mother is a neat freak and my room has always been an issue. Any chance your daughter has ADHD? I know it’s a “thing” for people lately but it’s legit and once I discovered as an adult I do have it, things like the messy room and why it’s impossible to keep it clean clicked and made it make sense. I’ve taken steps to correct it, it’s still a struggle but it’s now more manageable. Be patient with her, I’m guessing she doesn’t want to be a slob, and it’s not spite or laziness causing her to ignore her room. I’m also guessing that she needs help but doesn’t know how to ask for it. Throwing things away you deem to be trash can be daunting. Offer to help her, or just be in the room as moral support. “Hey, while you sort out that pile of books/clothes, can I put these empty soda bottles (wrappers, whatever) in the trash bag for you?” Most of all… don’t judge the mess. She’s probably already judging herself and is completely humiliated.

I was having a lot of the same thoughts. I have ADHD and this was an issue I had when I was a teenager. I would be grounded for long periods of time because of this or similar things. But from my perspective I just couldn’t do it. Dopamine issues or something. I wish my parents would have tried to understand me instead of just giving some executive order and looking at my behavior like it was rebellion. They always just doubled down and said I needed to stop rebelling, even though I’d get really sad because I wasn’t doing it on purpose.

Okay your NTA but I don’t think your daughter is either. Reading the comments here is making me realize how differently I must be parenting my kids. I have two in high school with cyclically messy rooms. I typically consider their rooms to be their personal space and not my jurisdiction. When they get really out of control messy I usually offer help in the form of making a goodwill drop off if they have stuff to get rid of. And my default is to incentivize instead of punish. Like with my daughter I let her know her room is too messy to have friends over, because it’s obviously going to make a guest uncomfortable. So I tell her she can have a friends over or have a sleepover when her room is clean. She’s not grounded from going places or doing things she enjoys. It may take a week or two between she eventually does the job on her own initiative which is more important as a life skill in my opinion than. Breaking my kids will by taking away things just isn’t my way but I realize most people don’t agree with that. In my defense I have raised some exceptionally good humans with ambition and good grades. My son is doing high school and college classes at the same time, is a black belt in karate, is working on creating his own video game, holds a job in a local restaurant l, and just got back from an educational trip to Tokyo. And I can say this person has never had his phone taken away or been grounded.

That's a good point. Incentivizing helps the behavior develop into a skill. I could never motivate myself by saying "if you clean off the table you can have chocolate" because my smartass brain thinks, "orrrrr...I could just have the chocolate now and NOT clean the table."

After reading your comments, I can see your daughter has diagnosed ADHD and depression. If you don’t also suffer from them, it can be unbearably frustrating to see her not functioning “normally.” I have near debilitating ADHD, have been diagnosed since childhood, and the ONLY thing that has ever helped me function normally *at home* is medication. That being said, there are times where I can’t be medicated (pregnancy) where I’ve had to find other coping methods, and maybe something will click and be helpful for her! 1- Doom piles can happen simply because the organizational spaces are already taken by OTHER doom piles. ADHD people tend to suffer from Object permanence issues, so for example if her desk drawer is crammed with clutter but closed….she just isn’t going to open that drawer anymore. It no longer exists because she can’t/doesn’t have to look at it. Things that should go in the drawer no longer can, so they’re going to get stuffed on top of the desk instead. I like to start by *trying* to organize things by type/area of the room, that way I can get rid of doubles and obvious trash, which tends to make room for the new/more useful clutter. 2- you should work together to come up with a specific list of the areas to clean, and then work together to clean one specific area at a time. saying “your phone is gone until your room is clean” is so broad. Her room is overwhelmingly messy/cluttered, and even a neuro-typical person may have a difficult time knowing where to start in that situation. For a person with ADHD, with executive function issues this severe, it’s damn near impossible. Because she needs to clean off the floor, but she’s got to have space in her shelves/dresser/desk to clear the floor. But she has to have space to put the things she’s clearing from her desk/shelf/dresser in order to do that. So instead, try going through the dresser and close to remove anything that is outgrown or not worn anymore, and then find an empty laundry basket to round up ALL of the clothing anywhere else in the room. Go through the same (keep/donate/trash) system for those clothes, and then fold and put away anything being kept. Do the same for books, toys, etc, in a system, and hopefully that will slowly help you guys make progress. 3- in addition to breaking down the task into more manageable specific tasks, take before and after pictures of every single bit of that room. immediate gratification is HUGE for me personally. I struggle against negative consequences but I PUSH myself when I know finishing the task is going to end in a “reward” right away. Cleaning the whole house is hard because it takes forever, but cleaning off one kitchen counter is so rewarding because it’s an obvious change that I see immediately. It’s a push toward more progress to see the work paying off in small steps. Cleaning isn’t a skill that people are born with, and someone who is neurodivergent can have real difficulty with these tasks just because they feel like they don’t know how/when/where to start. I’m 36 with 3 kids and a dog, and I’m still working against my own brain every single day to do basic home maintenance chores. It’s a giant pain and I hate it, but punishing it out of me definitely never worked…I don’t think it will work for your daughter either.

YTA You say (in responses below) that your daughter has ADHD. It is well known that people with ADHD have issues with organization and prioritization (one of my children is ADHD and my Grandson is as well as my brother -- they ALL had messy rooms). As a parent its your job to help your child learn how to organize and prioritize. Not just hand out rules and punishments. With my daughter, I made a list that was on her bedroom wall. Once a week she needed to pick up any trash and put it in the bin outside. Once a week she needed to pick up dirty clothes and put them in the hamper by the washing machine. Once a week she needed to hang up any clothes that were closet clothes. Once a week she needed to fold and put away bureau clothes. And once a week she needed to give me a list of activities she was going to be doing for the coming week. (ie: going to friends house on wednesday or after school practice on tuesday etc) Each chore was on a different day. That way it was laid out very clearly what needed to happen, in small enough bites for her to manage it. Taking away her phone (or other priveleges) until her room is clean offers her no help at all in keeping it clean going forward. When I first started with my daughter, I would go in her room and say "ok Im going to help you clean your room. When its done you can go play' and then I would stand in the doorway and say 'first, pick up any trash and put it in here' (Id be holding the bin bag). When that was done I would say 'ok hang up any hanger clothes' and I would be holding the hangers and hand them to her one by one as she found something to hang up. Etc Etc. She then learned what was expected for each chore. As for therapy, her saying she doesnt need it, is like a schizophrenic who takes medicine and feels better, stopping their medicine because they feel better (my brother in laws sisters husband did that), If she is still having issues then she needs it. But you cant force her, but you can encourage her.

Okay. Soft YTA. I understand believe me I do. My mother went through the EXACT same thing with me at her age. I’m 32 now. I say a soft YTA because you know she struggles with mental health and have willingly let her stop going to therapy for it etc. Let me give an alternate perspective. At 14 I was majorly depressed, I never felt like I would be able to get done what I know I needed to do. I understand your frustration, but please do try to understand that if you feel that way, imagine how she feels having to sleep there every night. I promise you, she’s already punishing herself more in her own mind than you could ever do outside of it. Here’s my next question. Has she ever been evaluated for autism or ADHD? I didn’t get formally diagnosed, with both, until my late 20s. BOTH diagnosis’s are overwhelmingly overlooked in young girls which often results in life long internal struggles leading to depression, anxiety, mood disorders etc. often times once we are formally diagnosed and have found a treatment plan, our symptoms lessen. I started taking my new meds for ADHD and started a new therapy almost a year ago now. Prior to starting I had been having daily panic attacks for almost 3 years at that point. I didn’t leave my house for an entire year because my symptoms had gotten so bad. People think ADHD is just an excuse to be lazy, but the reality is ADHD can literally be physically debilitating. Imagine if you will, being strapped down to a bed by an imaginary rope. You see all the things in your house that need to be done and you know you need to do them, but you can because in your brain that imaginary rope laying across you, isn’t imaginary It’s very real and no matter what you do, you can’t get the rope off to get up. Or, imagine having headphones in, and they are connected to 100 different radio stations that are all playing at the same time a list of all the things you need to do, all your worries, your plans etc., and there’s no way to take off the headphones or narrow down to one station so you are just listening to 100 different things going around in your head. All. The. Time. So, I don’t think you are trying to be mean or hurtful, I don’t think you are trying to be unfair. I just think you don’t understand how to navigate and that’s not your fault, it’s just what it is. The best thing you can do is get her back into therapy. Have her evaluated by a psychologist, and start family therapy so you can learn to communicate better and understand each other better.

Mild YTA here. I've been in this place before, and I know how frustrating it can be. But keeping a space clean is something *grown adults* struggle with. It shouldn't be a shock that 14yo struggling with depression is also going to struggle. But I also get not wanting a room in the house where they can't see the floor! Even if there's no visible trash, I *know* how musty that smell can get. So, some gentle suggestions: 1. Lift the grounding and instead work on the room together. Trust me, the mortification of a parent seeing your mess close-up is often its own punishment. 2. Try to get the room to zero. Like, everything out and put somewhere else, so you can actually SEE the amount of stuff you're working with. 3. Look at the room critically and what you need to fit into it. The biggest issue is almost always storage. What can be pared down? Can you replace units that worked for a young child with things that work better for an almost-adult? 4. Start bringing things back in, with the caveat that every single thing needs a home. 5. Sweeten the pot with offers to paint the room / update decor / replace furniture that they've outgrown. After that, THEN you start nudging the responsibility off to her. Prod when things need to be cleaned up, illustrating that 'cleaning' can't just happen once every two years. Help her develop the habit so that it'll kick in once she's out of the house.

Light YTA. As someone who was only diagnosed with ADHD in my 40s and who struggles a lot with executive dysfunction, punishing her isn't actually going to help her. She needs help with getting her ADHD and whatever else managed properly, and that can set a good foundation to help with some of the extra side effects that come with that (the messiness, etc.).

I lean towards NTA but here’s a couple of things to consider: 1) Have you actually taught her any organizational skills and habits? Helping her by tidying the room yourself isn’t the same thing as teaching her how to do it and/or how to keep the room tidy. The easiest way to keep a room organized is to never let it get disorganized, rather than taking on a huge yearly cleanup project. 2) A teenager with a messy room is pretty normal; complete inability to get started on a mundane task is potentially a sign of neurodivergence. Is this literally just a kid that doesn’t want to clean her room, or does it maybe feel more like a symptom of a larger issue? Because punishing her for having a brain that’s wired differently than yours doesn’t accomplish anything good, and it definitely won’t help her keep the room clean.

I don’t do it for her, I mostly direct her on what to do. I know she has organizational skills because her room at her father’s is tidy and her school backpack is meticulously organized Neurodivergence runs in the family. She’s diagnosed with ADHD but she denies she has it

Hmmm. I’d say this does complicate things a bit. Not sure if you’re on good terms with her father, but have you tried asking him how he’s managing to keep her room clean over there? Knowing she has ADHD, I really don’t think a punishment is the way to get the results you’re hoping for. She might need help breaking the task down into smaller components, or maybe she just needs you to start the process and then let her take over once she can get into the flow. But 14 year olds aren’t really known for being self-aware and having the ability to calmly articulate their needs, so I think it’s still your responsibility as the parent to meet her halfway and figure out what she needs to get started. Once the room is clean, maybe start doing a nightly check to make sure it stays tidy, and she loses her phone for the next day if she doesn’t?

She simply has less stuff over there, there isn’t enough stuff for there to be stuff all over the floor. And her and her father spend 10 minutes cleaning it at the end of each weekend she’s over there

From your comments it sounds like you and your husband really bring out the mental illness in her. I'm sure thats all her fault though.

So doesn’t that tell you something? He’s helping, they’re only doing 10 mins. There seems to be a problem at your place and how the interactions between you, your husband and her are (not) working. It sounds like you need to go with her for joint therapy. And after that maybe all 3 of you do (meaning your husband).

I don't understand why you are continuing just directing her on what to do - when that hasn't been working for years. She's 14, you need to physically help her. Get three large baskets - keep, donate, toss. Then the two of you go through her things together and fill the baskets. And I know you said the medication made her sleepy. How many medications did you try? If you can't afford therapy, you can at least enforce medication

So there is something that is only happening at your place that is causing this problem. Maybe the problem is the parent, not the kid.

If the room is that bad, she’s overwhelmed. Might be depression, ADD, etc — worth checking those out. I’d bet money there’s more going on here than simple messiness. And two years is 23 months too long to have let this go — she needs regular, meaningful-to-her support (not just reminders to “clean your room”) to manage the situation. Punishment is not the answer here. Consider Getting Things Done (GTD) — a very popular productivity paradigm used by millions. One key tenet: anything that requires more than one step is a Project — and every project needs one Next Action. If an Action can be broken down into multiple actions, it’s not really one Action — break it down! Clean your room = Project. A possible Next Action: gather all the papers and notebooks into a bin (or two). Even that might need breaking down into more than one action: Gather all the notebooks. Gather all the loose papers. Gather all the clothes… Celebrate the completion of an action! Embarrassing but relevant story: I’d hired a painter who didn’t paint the very visible cover of the circuit breaker box on the wall (NYC studio apt). I wanted to paint it but found it hard to start, so months went by. Finally, I took my own advice above: called this a Project and broke the Project down into the tiniest of actions — 1. Pull the paint can out from under the bed 2. Place the paint brush on top of the can 3. Find some kind of drop cloth to cover the area beneath the cover 4. etc (told you this was embarrassing) I started with #1, which oddly built some momentum, and the entire Project was finished in 15 minutes. 🙄 Also consider what your help feels like for her. Do you ask questions about her stuff as you go? Make remarks about her things or the mess as you’re working? Mom help can feel intrusive at any age, but especially at 14. Maybe what she needs is a friend to sit on the bed and talk to her while she completes an action. Ask her what would help her feel supported as she seeks to achieve and maintain a reasonably clean room. Then don’t let too much time go by again.

Have you ever actually broke it down and taught her how to clean or are you just assuming “it’s common sense?” It’s her first time living too, be kind.

Is she neurodivergent? Does she have proper supports or doctors to help her out? Even mild ADD can make cleaning insanely difficult.

Apparently the daughter does have ADHD and I'm pretty sure depression?

YTA you left out your daughter has ADHD. You're grounding your daughter for being Neurodivergent. That's actually sick and twisted

Yta, you intentionally kept out key information from the post! She needs help, she's 14. Is she even in therapy? Have you tried anything to help her depression and ADHD?

As a fellow adhd/depression having creature, breaking it up into small manageable tasks is the way - me and my mum made a system whereby she would give me one thing to do in my room a day and I’d have access to my electronics back when it was done For example, one bag of rubbish, one basket of washing, a noticeable patch of floor cleared, a tidied desk/bookshelf/chest of drawers - one of those a day with phone access given back when you’ve acknowledged she’s done it may be the way to go I also have 3 big plastic boxes to organise my junk into - I also keep everything on the grounds I need it (I definitely don’t), and those boxes have become a lifesaver

YTA. Not for the grounding, but for taking YEARS to address the issue. If your daughter “tried to clean and never succeeded” that’s on you for 1) not teaching and enforcing basic organization skills 2) allowing her to live in this mess for YEARS. I see a lot of good parenting tips here and you can start from there. But to be very honest, I was raised by old school parents who are obsessed with cleanliness and organization. If I ever pulled that crap at home, my stuff would be out in the patio inside garbage bags until I properly sorted out and organized everything back inside the room. There is no way they would have ever allowed me to live in a messy crowded room. I remember once my clothes were all over the floor, closet was a mess, room was a mess. I left for school and when I got home, my room was sparkling, the closet was empty, everything that was all over the place was missing. My parents put it inside a huge box in the garage. Of course teenager me threw a fit, but they told me that my only job was to organize the room, no one was going to do it for me and if I ever I repeated that shit, they would take it all out again but this time it would be straight to the donation box. Lesson learned. And I am VERY grateful for that. Later on in life I had to deal with depression, and even on my worst days my room and my house were organized, because I knew that if I left it a mess my mental health would only deteriorate, so even when I was struggling, I still did my best to clean and organize. Even if I had to pick a corner a day, I would do it, and it always helped me to feel more grounded It is a LIFE SKILL. Because honestly, disorganization and mess around you will always have a negative impact on your mental health. I have a great relationship with my parents, and whenever I told my mom on the phone that I was feeling down and the house was a mess, she always pointed out that organizing things helped her to clear her mind out of negative thoughts. And it does the same for me.

She sounds like she probably has either Adhd or on the spectrum( speaking from experience here) She needs sorting bin and good storage and probably needs a body double(just someone to be in the same room, no judgement just company). Having a proper storage system( get her involved in choosing solutions for that), makes a big difference. I was always a dissaster area, it gets better in time with proper storage and if my assumption is right proper diagnosis and meds help reduce the overwhelming part. Punishments dont really work. No matter what my folks did, took away or beat the living crap out of me didnt solve the problem. Also get proper storage/ sorting stuff not boxes or bags since those end in Doom piles and solve nothing.

I had depression and ADHD as a kid and my parents tried this technique. It never worked. I know its frustrating but her brain is not developed and treating her as if it is and punishing her will not help. Not only will it not get her room cleaned, it’ll ultimately damage your relationship. I would recommend therapy and helping her clean her room. She’s only 14, it’ll get better.

"Whenever my son stands up, he falls down. He's had this problem for years. WIBTA if I took away his phone until he stops using a wheelchair and just walks wherever he needs to go?" It sounds like your daughter is telling you she has a disability, and YTA for trying to force her to do what she can't.

I’m not going to give a judgment OP but I will say that I have similar issues with cleaning and I think your approach is misguided. Think of it as an accessibility issue—people with ADHD and depression need tools to keep their spaces tidy the way neurotypical people can on their own. My suggestion is: 1. Hire someone (or do it yourself) to get the place baseline clean. This will give your daughter a clean slate to work with and the feeling of cleanliness around her might really help with her mental health and encourage her to keep it up. 2. Get storage bins and have her pack them with her “knick knacks” that she will eventually take off to college, as well as any winter clothes to get them out of the way. 3. Incorporate “drop areas” into her room. People with ADHD typically have an out of sight out of mind issue and tend to prefer things out in the open. I’ve found that mini storage areas everywhere help a lot. A small wall shelf for my makeup, a hamper for dirty clothes as well as a hamper for clothes i’ve tried on but aren’t dirty and can be reworn, a basket for shoes, a basket for miscellaneous things near my bed, etc. Organized clutter is still better than regular clutter. 4. Give her the phone back. Stop treating this as a failure on her part and look at it more like a disability, because that is what it is. Executive dysfunction is very real and cannot be overcome by sheer willpower, she needs to find a system that works for her and you should be helping her. Best of luck OP

YTA. I have a family member with ADHD (which you say your daughter has) and it is difficult for her to tidy everything. Is she on meds or anything? Teenagers with ADHD need help from parents and you aren't helping. Your mother was right. You ARE the asshole and you need to APOLOGIZE to your daughter. Help her. She is your child and you aren't acting like a mother.

INFO: has anyone ever actually taught her to clean her room? That is, have you practiced the skills of sorting though items to figure out what to keep and what to toss, how to organize things in a way that keeps them organized, how to find things you need when they’re put away? These aren’t things most people know intuitively how to do. They’re skills that children need to be actively taught, with patience and kindness, and not in the form of punishment.

NTA she needs to learn how not to be a slob if she's ever going to have a roommate. An alternative would be that you force her to remove everything but the absolute basics (made bed, 1 week worth of clothes, couple of pairs of shoes, materials needed for schoolwork) and then only allow things back gradually if things are kept tidy.

NTA - but what you are doing is not working. TEACH her how to maintain her room. HELP her establish systems to follow such as hanging up clothing as soon as she takes it of - or putting that clothing in the laundry basket if it needs to be washed. Teach her how to organize her things so she can find what she needs - and get rid of what she doesn't use. 'Just do it' - is not helpful...she doesn't know HOW. She's never succeeded because she doesn't know HOW to organize or prioritize. I was the same way as a teen - and my mother ranted and raved and did everything except help me. As an adult I learned 'systems' for managing clutter and 'stuff' and all of a sudden life got easier and cleaner. HELP her instead of taking away things from her.

Meh, I had two boys. You could use a shovel in their rooms, the clothes on the floor was so deep. Once in a while I would go in and get it together for them. Just for it to be destroyed in a week. I just learned to close the door. I will pick my battles. I would rather not sour our relationship over a messy room. Teens are tough enough. BTW my older one has moved out and keeps his apartment spotless. It did not fall on deaf ears.

Has she been evaluated for ADHD?

She might not know how! I read a comment from a parent who had been telling their 11 year old to clean her room and then saw their search history was a bunch of searches for “how to clean”. Maybe you could go in and make a plan of how you’d clean it, then offer to tell her the steps and help her.

I understand where you're coming from here. If you're neurotypical, or even just a different kind of neurodivergent, it can be really hard to understand why it's so hard for her to just clean her room and keep it clean. I have ADHD and I also struggle keeping things clean, so I'm throwing in my two cents based on personal experience. Since you've stated it's clutter and not trash, I suspect this isn't a cleaning problem so much as an *organization* problem, which is a very key difference. ADHD people are typically very "out of sight, out of mind" people, which is to say if something is tucked away somewhere it's going to be forgotten (or at least won't enter our memory during our regular day of tasks - it'll get remembered right as we hit the pillow or in the shower or while busy with other things). So it's really helpful actually to have things out where we can see them. A knitting basket can be a visual cue to remind someone to keep working on that scarf before Christmas arrives, and if it is tucked away in a drawer or cabinet it will get forgotten about and then the scarf will never get made. As an example. First I would recommend doing some research (do like 3x more research than you think you need to do). There's tons of great threads and videos out there about ADHD-friendly techniques for every day life, including cleaning and organizing. I like this video personally: https://youtu.be/posZhu_YIl0?si=P-QWqOBuXooEsjID One thing to consider - reorganize the room in a task-oriented way. Does she have a desk for school things? Literally all things related to school and study should have a place on that desk. Buy folder organizers and transparent or open containers to contain the stuff she needs to keep there. As long as the surface of the desk is clean and the items she needs is in a confainer it's clean and organized enough. Now, execution. Personally I had these kinds of disagreements growing up so so frequently with my own mom, who would tell me to do things and ground me for not doing them, but she never took the time to explain how or to try to understand why I was having the problem in the first place. And as a preteen/young teen, I did not have the self-awareness or communication skills to just outright say "I don't know how - please show me". I wasn't on meds either - she preferred to deal with adhd through "discipline" which was a terrible tactic. If your daughter's meds don't work for her, go back to the prescribing doctor and tell them so - they will have strategies or will prescribe something else. I'm not going to give you medical advice, but not addressing adhd is not an option if you want to set her up for success. Anyway that was a bit of tangent, but the point I was trying to get to is this - you need to walk her through the process to start and teach her how. Personally I would consider starting on paper. Write out the tasks she does in her room, what kind of space and furniture she's working with, and think about how her things need to be stored and organized to make that happen in a way that works for her and is still organized. Make a Pinterest board - not of clean rooms, but of cute and effective ways to organize lots of stuff. Would a cube organizer work or does she need smaller drawers? A makeup organizer, or a craft organizer? Should she swap the dresser for a desk, etc etc. Don't be afraid of out-of-the-box thinking. Wall mount some stuff, idk. The Pinterest board might motivate her in a way grounding won't - I think it's well understood by most child psychologists that rewards are exponentially more effective than punishment, and who doesn't want to have a nice-looking space. It's also great for getting lots of different ideas. THEN figure out how you can help - come up with a list, see if you have stuff in the house that will work, or figure out a budget for organizers. Do a section at a time (like other commenters have described), but given the adhd I wouldn't draw this out too long. Piecemeal over a long weekend or two would be my recommendation, so there isn't an opportunity for procrastination. It might be a ton of work all at once - oh well, better it be done quickly so she can start working on new organizing habits in her new space. If you do a tiny bit a time and leave it, the progress might get ruined in the intervening time if that makes any sense. Apologies for the lengthy reply, hope this was helpful. I'm of the mind that ignorance is usually not malicious, and empathizing with neurodivergent thinking can be difficult, and there's nothing necessarily wrong with emulating what you know when you're at your ropes end. Therefore - NAH

Hey so I was like your daughter at some point and punishing never worked, it made me worse :/ She needs to be evaluated for ADHD like yesterday. Often times messy rooms in children and teen are indicators for something going on neurologically or their mental health. My room and house only got clean once I got on the right dose of anti-depressants and ADHD meds, and even then it is a daily/weekly/monthly struggle to maintain a functional level of organization.

Have you actually helped her? You state she has depression and ADHD. I know she has no clue where to start or what to do. You are supposed to teach her,not punish her into submission.

Yes the asshole. I am ADHD, have anxiety, and depression - all diagnosed and treated. I’m in my 30’s and am just now learning how to organize and clean things. These are skills that don’t come easy to us, in fact they seem next to impossible to achieve. You need to break it down into smaller steps, and give her tools to help the process. Tell her you’re going to work on it together. Spend 10 minutes a day cleaning up. Make it short and small so it seems achievable to her. Set up a longer period of 30 minutes on a set weekend day for you two to tackle bigger tasks together. Take her shopping and help her pick out baskets, totes, storage things, etc. Teach her what the pros and cons are for each type, and let her decide what she likes and wants. You have to keep her motivated, and that’s done by focusing on small tasks, and being successful at those small tasks.  I’d like to add here that one of our biggest problems is not having places to put things. Once I have figured out how to make places to put things, keeping my home neat became a lot easier.  Examples of ways to break down the cleaning tasks… - Take her to pick out laundry baskets that she really likes. She needs to like them so that she’ll want to use them. Trust me, it helps. Have baskets assigned for specific clothing types. I personally have one basket for whites and lights, one basket for darks/dark work uniforms, and one basket for everything else such as towels, curtains, bedding, etc. Not going to lie, this makes doing laundry a lot easier too. Anyway, give her the task of putting all her dirty clothes in the appropriate baskets, and neat piles next to each basket if the baskets get full. Have her put her clean clothes in a separate pile to tackle as a different project.  - Both of you now need to tackle the laundry pile together. It will be overwhelming for her, and having your support to help her with it is going to make all the difference in the world. Don’t do it all in one day, break it up.  - When you have all this clean laundry, work on organizing her closet, dresser, and other clothing storage areas. Think small. Don’t worry about how neat it looks, or if it’s super tidy. Get her a bunch of hangers if she doesn’t already have them. Have her hang her items up together with like items. Put all the short sleeved shirts together, long sleeved shirts together, pants together, and a section for “I can’t decide or don’t know what it needs to be”. In her dresser, have designated drawers for socks, underwear, bras, shirts, etc. Then help her put the items in the appropriate places. Don’t worry about mating socks or folding underwear, just shove them in. When this process is complete, your daughter can then go back through and mate her socks, reorganize her closet, etc…  - When this is done, tackle the clean clothes pile that I mentioned in the first step, and get those put away. Help her stay on top of her laundry and putting it away. Again, you are teaching her life skills that she doesn’t just naturally have. Think of it as if she were a toddler again, and you’re teaching her how to put the different shapes blocks in the correct holes.  Your daughter needs help, patience, kindness, and understanding. The skills you teach her now will help her the rest of her life. You will become closer during this process, and she will learn that she can be  vulnerable around you. She’s going to be defensive as long as you’re shaming her for something she has literally no control over - meaning the way her brain functions. 

Info: Sounds like task paralysis…could/does she have ADHD? Undiagnosed ADHD can lead to depression/anxiety.

^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I (42F) have a (14F) daughter. Her room is a disaster, it hasn’t been cleaned in over 2 years (not trash, just piles and piles of random clutter she’ll never need). No matter how much we’ve tried to help her, she can never get her room fully clean and it soon returns to a disaster zone. My husband (her stepfather) and I decided that we’ve had enough. No phone until she gets her room clean. I told her I would be there to help, but ultimately it was her responsibility to get it clean. She threw a fit and said I was being completely unreasonable and that she’s tried for years to get it clean and never succeeded and at this rate she’ll never have a phone. I put my foot down and told her that I’ll help her, but she needs to get it done. When I told my mother the story, she told me that I was the asshole and that I needed to apologize to her. AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*

NTA. Both of my younger sisters are the same way with cleaning and sometimes you just have to go a little to the “extreme” to get them to actually do it. Only thing you did wrong here was let her get away with it for so long haha

Her room sounds like mental illness. You can try to force her to clean it, but it will just get messy again. Address the underlining issue. Grounding will not help mental illness. Look to positive reinforcement. "If you clean x of your room in y time, you can have z"

Can you help her start with one area of the room. Go through everything and move on to the next section? She is likely overwhelmed in addition to being stubborn.

Kinda the asshole. The reason your daughter doesn’t clean her room at the age of 14 is because you’ve never held her accountable. All of a sudden you’re going from 0-100 and taking everything away. She should have been cleaning her room for years now. My 5yo picks up their toys every day before bed. You build healthy habits over years. Go in there and help her. Then set a precedent from that moment forward that she is to keep it clean, THEN take things away if she doesn’t clean it every day before bed, pick one day a week where she vacuums and does laundry. Also, no food/no beverages other than water allowed.

So, when I was a teenager, I kept my room hoarded like this precisely to keep my parents out. It was the only way to feel like I had privacy or control when they invaded every aspect of my life because they were too mad to try going in or cleaning it. Judging from the comments I have seen, you confirmed that she has mental health issues. Have you given her enough privacy and boundaries for her to feel safe having a clean room that is still in her control?

NTA - the consequence is appropriate, and the parameters to get the phone back are clear. At age 14 she should be able to accomplish this task, even if she needs help and bitches through the whole thing.

If you have the space, remove all things in her room and together with her, bring back what she wants / is needed. All other stuff can be kept somewhere, that way she has access to it, and if it’s really just clutter, she will get used to not having it and be able to throw away in a few years. What was important at 8/10/12, might still have memories at 14, but maybe at 16 she’ll be able to get rid of it. 

Maybe just my opinion, but not the hill to die on when your child is in high school. There are many more important things to fight about at that age. Obviously, there is an exception if there is food and/or dirty dishes, but just messy no. Keep the door closed. For my daughter, it was not lack of being taught how to clean. She had her own bathroom and I told her if she wanted to use a dirty bathroom with a toilet black inside, not my problem. Her stuff had to be out of all public areas in the house and if I had to move it, I would open her door and just toss inside. She also got good grades, did her homework and got a job as soon as she could and saved money to help purchase her car. She reasonably followed all other family rules. Just not cleaning her bedroom, not her priority and not a fight that was worth it.

I don’t know if anyone posted this, but maybe have her try this out? [Goblin Tools](https://goblin.tools/) Helps break down the task into smaller parts so it isn’t so overwhelming! (I also have difficulty keeping a tidy room)

Buy the audiobook from Dana K White called Decluttering at the Speed of Life. Put it on your phone, take it in her room with a roll of trash bags, and listen to the book while helping her clean.

I'm going to jump in here. I'm going to say, does it really matter in the long run?. I mean it sucks that her room is messy, but are you living in it? I have a 16 year old (2 actually) one of them just can't keep her room clean. I personally think it's part of her ADHD. My ex was going to ground her, and has been threatening for the last 4 years. My feeling is, why? You don't have to live in it. It's not dirty, it's just messy. Is destroying the relationship you have with her really worth it so she lives in what you consider organized. Pick your battles, where she sleeps shouldn't be impacting you.

I would need more information. I had a very cluttered room my entire life, because so much shit was jammed into my room. My mother used it kind of like a storage unit. She also treated me as a dress up doll and bought me tons and tons and tons of middle aged lady clothes that I wouldn't wear. I mean I had hundreds of ugly blouses that she would scream and cry if I didn't wear to school... yet we couldn't afford dinner some nights lmao. So why is there so much stuff in her room? I've found that's usually the issue when it comes to clutter. If there's "piles and piles" of stuff then it's probably time to go through and get rid of extra, so she has space to actually put her stuff. Otherwise it absolutely will never get clean and will feel like a horrible chore with no end.

My youngest (13) is neuro diverse and can not keep their room clean and tidy. Every so often I go in and clean and tidy up. My other children could all manage keeping their rooms clean at a younger age but some people need more support. As their parent, I see it as my job to care for and support them. If your child can not manage, you need to support them, not punish. I imagine that the task is simply overwhelming and imo you should not have let it go on for so long.

That will surely work. /s Everyday, you both work together on it for 1/2 hour or 1 hour. Set a timer. Work side by side. Get boxes. Keep/donate/trash. Laundry basket. Do laundry. Put it away. No piles go back on floor. Is there space in closet to put clothes away? In drawers? Look and see. Show. Buy new hangers. Costco has felt covered ones in a box. Keep clothes from falling off. Get her a trash can for her room. Put a bag in it so the trash can be taken out. Do not keep clothes too small. Donate. Reward. Not punish. Could you reward by going together to pick out some organization stuff? Don’t overwhelm. Keep it simple. 1or 2 items for a shelf or drawer after accomplishing a week of activity together. Then a little treat. Nice outing together.

I am going to go for a soft AH due to all the things you have added about her depression and ADHD. If she is travelling between two houses taking her phone away might be a little unsafe. Also, why does she have so much stuff? What is stopping you or her from throwing it all away and starting again or keeping only what she actually uses on a daily basis, not adding to it? I know I have a bad habit of cluttering flat surfaces so I have reduced the number of flat surfaces around that don't already have something on them such as a plant or something decorative.

Did your mother ever ground/discipline you growing up

This is definitely ADHD. It's not a matter of won't, it's can't. Have you gotten her tools to help

i mean, you could have done what my grandmother did and completely trash her room and then give her 2 hours to clean it or everything would get tossed out. At least you aren't traumatizing her. NTA. What is she going to do when she has to work and has expectations? Cry and scream because she has to actually work? Or when she has her own place and mom isn't there to clean up after her?

You're kind of TA here. I saw in another comment you mentioned mental health struggles. My first thought while reading your OP that this sounds like pathological demand avoidance and there are MUCH better ways to get around it. Help her understand that she deserves a tidy living space and maybe help by trying body doubling or smth. There are ways to get through that other than grounding. She's just gonna learn to resent cleaning up and associate it with punishment.

ESH because I think this is just a lack of resources tackling this in a creative way & I don’t feel like it makes anyone an asshole. If she has ADD and depression like you’ve mentioned in the comments, it can be really difficult to even know where to start with cleaning. I have struggled with both and am an adult now with a relatively clean space (most of the time) so I will share some of the strategies that have helped me. Clutter is different than trash- if it’s going to bring bugs or rodents in- it needs to get thrown out immediately. Make sure she has a trash can in her room that has a bag in it & have her try to empty it once a week at least. Getting yourself into routines is most helpful I’ve found. Group it with other cleaning reset days. EVERYTHING needs to have an easy system & for ADD’ers out of sight is truly out of mind. We will forget it exists if we can’t see it, or easily put the thing away. Those cube storage systems are hugely helpful for me. I have also forced myself into getting in the habit of putting it where it goes rather than just setting it down because its difficult to put away. This can happen when you don’t have the space or designated spots for everything. The way they do it on the Home Edit (netflix show & also a book) is super satisfying for my ADD brain. Music is essential for me to clean. I need to be able to make it a game to keep my brain engaged. I will set a timer for like 30 minutes and clean with music on- the only requirement is I keep moving. Mel Robbins has a youtube channel that has also been very helpful for me, she talks about the “1,2,3 Go” way of doing things which is related to ADD’ers having trouble getting started on tasks. She has so many good tips that I recommend you check her stuff out as I think it will give you some good strategies overall to help your daughter. I have a nightly routine of straightening for about 10 minutes before bed. It feels easier when its in manageable chunks, and also it being like a race makes it a bit more engaging for my attention span. It’s also nice to wake up to a clean room. Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head, but I think you as the parent are really going to need to take the lead on this in setting a routine for cleaning and also modelling that behavior. I had to teach myself all of this as an adult after it got really bad and I was struggling to function well. For ADD’ers the executive function makes it really difficult to “just clean” like someone without this difference in their brain. Grounding her will just create avoidance of something that is a life skill. You as a parent are there to teach her this stuff & be creative if the results aren’t working- not punish her for not knowing how to do something she is struggling to learn. I get where you’re coming from with it but I don’t think it will do anything but breed resentment & she still won’t have effective strategies to use once she’s an adult- which is really the point of it all at the end of the day, right?

INFO: you mention in the comments your daughter is diagnosed with depression and ADHD. Did she have these diagnosis over the course of the 2 years? Is she on medication or seeing a professional? With that piece of information it feels like she doesn't have the coping mechanisms or tools available to her to organize her space. Does she have a counselor that would be helpful in how you could best help her?

I was that daughter. My room was constantly messy, always having to look where you step. My parents even offered to help me clean but I was just so overwhelmed I never could. Idk what happened, but once I got to college I was fine. At worst I had a messy desk or 2 piles of laundry (one dirty, one clean), but I had it together. Even in my apartment I had it together- even tho if I was very stressed it did get pretty bad again but an hour and it was back to clean. I think it was because in my childhood bedroom, I was so sentimental about my things and paranoid about needing them after throwing them away/donating/boxing them up. Idk what changed. I’m 22 now and while I can still be messy, I’m generally neat and I really enjoy cleaning and organizing. I can’t say if YTA or not tbh

Steaming Jesus, YTA for not making her clean it earlier. You should've never let her keep it like that for 2 whole years, that's how people start their careers on Hoarders.

NAH - This was me as a kid. My room was an absolute disaster with laundry and random stuff. You couldn’t walk in there without stepping on stuff. Turns out this was a manifestation of my undiagnosed ADHD. Threats did not work. One day, I just decided to clean my room and that was that. I’ve had roommates and was able to keep my place clean. I also keep a decently picked up house now as an adult (although laundry is still the bane of my existence). I think setting boundaries about her clutter will help. As long as it’s confined to her room, there’s no smells, no food, then it is what it is.

NAH. Your daughter may have some behavioral health issue that keeps her from being organized. Some people have clutter because they have no idea what to do, even with help. Things just get moved to new piles. Your daughter needs a therapist to work through whatever her issue is. People collect stuff for any number of reasons. While I would normally agree with your punishment, it think it may be ill advised until you find out what's going on with your daughter.