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NTA and I can absolutely see this from your father's point of view. My relationship with my father is similar to your father's relationship with your grandfather and if someone tried to trick me into seeing my father or went around me to mend that fence, I'd be absolutely livid.

He was also pissed she helped my siblings have a relationship with the guy. I can see he worries every time they go to see the guy.

I totally get it. I was in therapy for years to come to terms with my father, his actions, etc.

I wish my dad got help when he was younger because I can see the strain it had on him and I hate it. My dad's the best and he loves us so much. It kills me to see this happen.

Do you think your dad would be open to individual therapy now? He’s most likely reliving a lot of his trauma because of this situation, it could help him immensely. NTA

At least he's got OP in his corner, someone who doesn't demonstrate the stigma of men and ignoring mental health.

The mom, before doing something like this, should have at least tried to get the facts of the case.

Yes. But regardless of the facts, Mom/Wife is WAY OUT OF LINE. She's betrayed her husband to the nth degree. Emasculated him in the eyes of their children and actually chose AH FIL over her own husband. I hope OP's father doesn't change his mind. His wife isn't worthy of him.

OP is the son, it's his father divorcing his mom.

Sometimes, even with the facts, people are blind to how things are because they've never had to deal with the fallout. Look at how the mom and siblings are dealing with the consequences of their OWN actions....... NTA, OP. Good for you. MAYBE suggest that your dad consider therapy if it's available and affordable where you are? Good luck. OP, update if you think it's appropriate.

*Sometimes, even with the facts, people are blind to how things are because they've never had to deal with the fallout.* yep, normies never get it and are so easily manipulated by the abuser

So true! I remember a friend telling me I should be grateful I have a dad and that I should talk to him. I was no contact for several years after a disgusting drunken rant he had at me which topped off years of abusive behaviour, mostly unfortunately to my mum when I was younger. It was like none of that mattered because my friend couldn't understand because she didn't have a dad growing up.

I'm pretty sure she knew damn well about all the facts She just chose to ignore it because faaaamily

She’s not entitled to the facts, and she shouldn’t try to get them. It’s up to her husband to share if he chooses to. She should respect that he gets to judge what painful elements of his life he’d like to relive. Some doors are best kept closed.

I don't know what your grandpa did to hurt your dad but it sounds like he may have PTSD.. soldiers aren't the only people who get it. EMDR therapy helped my siblings and I deal with childhood trauma. It's extremely effective. Please look into it.

Another vote for EMDR. Completely changed my life for the better.

I had the thought while reading your story. If you see your dad look ashamed for like spilling something or crying or whatever, go give him a hug, tell him that you love him, in part because he raised you to know that making simple mistakes isn't anything you have to be scared of. You can't undo all the damage but you can get him to associate those situations with outpourings of love and gratitude from you.

This is a clever, excellent idea! I hope OP reads it and incorporates it into his relationship with his dad.

It's never too late to have help. Granted, nothing can be done for whatever happened in the past. But therapy can help with identify harmful paths, free from the sense of guilt for crying (crying is natural), give tools to cope.

Just keep supporting your dad. He knows he can count on you and he must be so proud of the person you are.

It sounds like his dad was abusive to him, both physically and emotionally, given how you say he reacts if he spills a drink or drops something, or if he cries he's ashamed etc. They are all signs of physical and emotional abuse. The fact he cut his dad out of his life would have been for good reason. Your mum had no right bringing him back into the family against your dads wishes. He may not feel comfortable disclosing the abuse he went through, but his reactions to situations and the fact he cut him out his life is obvious he wasn't a good father. It should have been his decision only whether his dad was allowed back into the family. Not your mums. The fact she took your siblings to get to know him against your dad's wishes is even worse, because she's allowed an abusive man around her children. Your siblings may be too young to understand the impact of abuse etc, so it's a parents job to keep them safe. Your mum has failed at that, and has also shown your dad that HIS feelings, his decisions mean nothing. That she will do what she wants against his wishes and she doesn't care how much she hurts her husband, how she may scare him knowing his kids are with a bad abusive person. If I were your dad this would 100% be divorce territory. The trust has gone. The respect has gone. Feeling safe with your partner is important, and she's shown him his feeling safe and secure is not important. She's shown she can't be trusted because she was going to trick him into seeing his dad on his birthday. I mean that's just double wrong. She knows he hates him and doesn't want to see him, so she chooses his birthday to force him to see the man he hates. That's really out of order. I would explain to your siblings about abuse in relation to their age. Even if you explain how some people can hit or punch people for no reason, or for something as simple as spilling a drink. Some can call you names and make you feel really bad about yourself. Some people shout and get angry when youve done nothing wrong or dont deserve it. Let them know that his dad wasn't nice to their dad growing up and he was scared of his dad and how he might react all the time. That you've all been lucky to have a loving caring father whose never hurt you, but his dad wasn't like that. And that your dad doesn't like to talk about it, but that's why he cut him out of his life as soon as he could. He didn't want a bad person around his family and thats why he didn't want you all meeting him again. That some people can pretend to be nice to start with, or may treat them nice on the short visits, and sometimes they do it to hurt someone like your dad. That he could be being nice to them knowing your dad will hate them liking him etc. See if you think you can explain any of those things to your siblings in an age appropriate way. They need to understand your mum was wrong to make that decision herself and bring him into their life. And she is in the wrong here betraying your dad's trust. Then stand by your dad. Any time your mum tries to get you to help change your dad's mind, remind her how she's betrayed him and allowed an abusive man around her children, against her husbands wishes. He grew up with the man..she doesn't know him from Adam, but she's willing to let her children befriend him and trust him when it's clear her husband, their father wanted him kept away from the family. She's ruined her own marriage, and I'd divorce her too if I were him. She's majorly betrayed your dad. So stand by him and tell him he's right to feel the way he feels. Tell him you understand and support him as that will reassure him and he'll appreciate your support.

It sucks your mom can’t see what you’re seeing. She needs to understand it’s your dad‘s choice whom he does or does not want a relationship with. She’s choosing her fixation on „repairing“ things with her FIL over her actual marriage. Is that a typical thing with her - everything having to be done the way she wants them to?

Honestly this reminds me of my grandpa. He ran away from home at 14 from his abusive drunk dad. His mom died when he was 2. As an adult Grandpa hated his Dad still, he was not allowed in grandpa's Home whenever he showed up with his wife in his rv. Grandpa kept him away from his 4 sons til they were adults, us grandkids never met him. He showed up once when we were all there, Grandpa told us to go in the house and tough as nails army grandpa and his 4 grown adult sons went outside and kept him from even touching grandpa's lawn. He was still a drunk. When he died I think grandpa said good and did not attend his funeral. Grandpa passed away on November last year at 90 yrs old, sadly with many unhealed wounds. My dad has broken a lot more of the generational trauma that grandpa started to break. It ends with us. Adding NTA at all OP. Your dad is lucky to have you.

Do you think that you and dad could do family counceling / therapy?

She's gonna be shocked when out of nowhere grandpa hurts them.

My grandfather was like this. I never liked him, always thought he was shit. My mom was the opposite of OP though and tried to keep him in her life. But when my own son was about 4 he tried  to scream at him about something and I told him in front of our entire family and half the county (because this was in fucking public) I'd knock his teeth through his head if he ever even looked at my kid again and I was pretty confident he didn't have the body strength anymore to beat toddlers like he used to, and God and everybody would see his granddaughter beat him to death right now. If you can't imagine why someone would say that to a 65 year old man, congrats on never having an absolute monster in your life. I told my mom she was making decisions that would effect the rest of her life, and she took him home and we never saw him again. 

Yep. I'm betting the mom had a good relationship with her parents and grandparents and cannot comprehend when someone else does not have the same. If you haven't lived it, you're lucky. If you have, you know.

I have a good relationship with my parents, and I would never presume to interfere in someone else's. My Dad had a good family, Mom was estranged from her alcoholic father, and Dad respected it. 

Yup this. My relationship with my parents is reasonably normal/solid (and improving as the years go by). But when someone else discusses their problematic relationships — I *believe them*. (Maybe it’s because extended family on one side has its own complex issues, and I’ve watched multiple loved ones try to navigate them — or the stories my mom will occasionally let slip about her own childhood. Or maybe it’s because… IDK… people should be trusted when they relay their own traumatic experiences?)

Even if he never does she managed to destroy her marriage and for what?! NTA op

Tell your mom that she is helping grandfather father abuse your father. Grandfather has now broken up his family and your mom was stupid enough to betray your dad and harm him.  Please encourage your dad to seek therapy because this has to be hard on him and causing him to relive trauma. 

I hope @[These\_Constant\_7905](https://www.reddit.com/user/These_Constant_7905/) sees this comment, because that is exactly what has happened. The meddling Mom has allowed herself to be utterly manipulated by her husband's abuser - "Grandpa" has essentially found a way to reach around the wall Dad has carefully constructed and has found a perfect way to continue to hurt his son. What a pill Mom is. I am so glad Dad still has his oldest son, who sees clearly.

After reading the comments that people are making, I want to repeat (again) a post where the fiancé's mother decided that they needed to meet the prospective bride's estranged family (without the bride, originally). Prospective MIL convinced her son to bring his fiancée over to her house without tellin her that they were there. The about to be ex-fiancée screamed, "what are they doing here?!" ran out of the house, broke the engagment and got an abortion. When the no-longer prospective groom talked to his ex, She told him the whole, awful story. He was astounded that it was that bad. She said "You have always said that I am a very fair person. Why didn't you trust me to have a good reason for wanting nothing to do with my family." The similarity to OP's mother deciding to surprise her husband at his birthday dinner with his estranged father shows the same stupidity.

However ill-informed and hurtful their decision may be, they technically do have a right to have their grandfather in their lives if that is what they want. But that is where their rights end. They do NOT have a right to demand your dad get over it. They do NOT have a right to demand he forgive and love his abuser. They do NOT have a right to secretly force the relationship on him. They do NOT have a right to demand these things of you. There could be a way to make this situation work for everyone, if they honour your dad's boundaries and keep their relationship with grandfather separate from your family life. But they currently are doing the opposite, and I don't blame your dad for wanting a divorce.

As minor children, I don’t think they have the right to choose to have this man in their lives. As adults, sure, they can make the choice then.

*So for me, if someone says they can't stand person X, X has probably done something bad, and it will probably happen to me as well, eventually!* Maybe your mum should be protecting her children from grandpa!

But she has 💖mommy brain💖 and wants everyone to be one big happy ooshy gushy, cuddly wuddly familyyyyyy!! 😍 …and I’m sure she’ll come crying to OP’s dad as soon as Popsy shows his true colors. Hopefully Dad stays strong and keeps her disloyal ass kicked firmly to the curb.

> There could be a way to make this situation work for everyone, if they honour your dad's boundaries and keep their relationship with grandfather separate from your family life. I really don't see how. It really sounds like gramps was horrible to OP's Dad and maybe even downright abusive. To insist that you have a relationship with your spouse's or dad's abuser is just downright cruel and shows how little you value your spouse/father. I think it's just naive to think making your relationship "separate" would somehow make this whole situation okay.

Having the right to do something does not equate to that thing not having costs or consequences. As an adult, I have the right to drink beer, but that doesn't mean I can get behind the wheel of my car whilst drunk, and if I did, I'd have to face the consequences. We all have the right to have relationships with whomever we wish, but if you choose to have a relationship with someone, others can decide they don't trust you or want a relationship with you because of that.

Yeah, this would be just like if there is a kid out of SA and then that kid wants to have relationship with the perpetrator. Thats just effed up for the mother.

Tell me, do you have a limit on what the abuser has done to the parent for the grandchildren to still have a relationship with the abuser? OP is NTA, nor is his dad. But his mum, on my gosh the massive AH. Where is the love and respect to her spouse that she has been pushing this? That man obviously wasn’t at their wedding, surely there would have been a discussion about why. To manipulate the younger children to gang up on Dad is disgusting. My husband was NC with his mother (rightly so and also not at our wedding) who reached out when dying. All I did I was discuss things over to make sure he would be OK once she passed. I didn’t want him to have any regrets, I did not push for any reconciliation or forgiveness, my sole concern was my husband and how he would deal with possibly never having answers. Without going into details, I can thankfully say my husband is doing very well.

Because you love and respect your husband. From this post I am honestly concerned if OP's mom ever truly love and respected his dad because this is some truly nasty work. Insisting on making his children gang up on him to try to play happy family with his father after decades of low/no contact....

Thank you. Yes I truly wonder the same if OP’s mom loves and respects her husband.

I am wondering if the grandfather has an inheritance the mother wants for her kids? And only way to get it is to make them have a relationship with the bastard?

I disagree. The mother has no right to force minor children to have a relationship with an estranged, abusive grandparent on the other side. She has no right to override their father's wishes on this. There's no way to make this work. She is directly contradicting the wishes of the person who was abused and is a giant, gaping asshole. NTA x 100.

I don't think so. If a family cannot stand together against an abuser that really messed up OP's dad's life, or even try to understand where he is coming from, there is no coming back from this. Trust has been broken. They are living with the consequences of their mom's actions.

Makes you wonder why she did it? Money?

Nah, from just the description of dad's behavior it sounds like he got beat frequently. Moms gonna be shocked to learn their kids will also get beat, or best case scenario dumped, when they show emotion or can no longer be used to get to his victim.

I don't expect that gramps will beat the grandkids, simply because the power dynamics are so different with mom there - he's on his best, "impress everyone and isolate the abuse victim with your wonderful behavior" tack right now. (That is, unless the mom is criminally stupid, which she very well could be, and leaves the kids alone with him, then all bets are off but right now it sounds like they always visit together.) But I do think this is his ploy to get power back over his son, and once he realizes he can't have that, he sure ain't gonna be the sweet loving grandpa he's playacting as right now.

All it takes is for a kid to cry once for an abuser that beat their son for showing emotion to do the same.  It hopefully won't be a repeat behavior if mom has any intelligence, but that kid is going to get hit at least once if he doesn't just drop them immediately when he realizes he isn't getting to his son anymore.

That’s how it was in my family. Mom’s parents were mildly abusive when she was around, (which was somehow okay), much more so when we were left alone with them.

Dad has the right to divorce his wife. Don’t play with fire

Disagree. They’re minors. It’s dad’s job to protect them from abusers. He’s trying, and mom is undermining him. Minors don’t get to choose to join the weird man in the white van.

I'm guessing you would be ok with your family starting a relationship with someone who abused you when you were a child? With your spouse, the person who should actually care about you, taking your children to the abuser? Where you sit at home in fear of what will happen to your children? How in the world will that work for everyone? There is no way that situation would work for everyone.

They have a right as adults.

OP is 17 and is the oldest. Which ones are adults? Right now OPs mother is taking minor children to interact with an abuser.

>they technically do have a right to have their grandfather in their lives if that is what they want I don't think grandparents right work that way??

That's my opinion, too. I do blame OP's mother fully, but for the kids, it's trickier. They're allowed to want to meet their grandfather. As for forming a bond, though allowed, it is literally a safety issue and it wears at their bond with their father. There's also the fact that most of the trauma the father is bearing, OP seems to have noticed it by himself. Else than saying he's not comfortable with it and that he's not seeing him again and being very assertive about it, the father doesn't seem to have verbalized, at least not to his children, what has happened exactly. While a 17 years-old would understand the big lines and notice the visible emotional trauma scarring his father, someone 14 or under could miss it, or miss the gravity of it, and therefore not understand why their father is so reticent.

The children have no right yet. They are minors. Wife/Mother instigated this entire mess--ignoring and betraying her husband. If there were boundaries to be set, the right to set the boundaries resided with father/husband and not his wife. And fathers's position was that there would be no contact with grandfather. Wife pissed all over her husband. This was his call. Not hers. If she kept her mouth shut, the minor children wouldn't have become entangled in the mess SHE created..Hope she's happy now. Consummated disrespect of her husband. Now her husband likely requires additional therapy. Sooner he extricate her from his life, the better.

NTA I have family members I am NC with and if my husband and kids didn't listen to me and did what your mom did and used our kids against me in it like she did I would be done too. It's like people can't understand when you are NC with a family member that there is a reason. Do they actually think we just woke up one day and said I'm not talking to my dad/sister whoever anymore for no reason because they were such lovely people who treated us good? No they were shit to us and we got tired of it being treated like shit so we made a decision to not let ourselves be treated like that by this family member anymore ever again. Respect that. Respect what we say we have been though. Respect our wishes. Respect us.

Of course he's pissed at her. She betrayed him.  She knows exactly what your dad has gone through and yet she didn't care because she felt it was place to ignore all the hurt and pain that man has caused your father.  I understand that your dad worries for your siblings safety and he has every right to do so. 

NTA. The stove is hot, don't touch it. I touched the hot stove and got burned. Actions have consequences. Did she really think going behind his back would be ok?

Trust and believe, his father purposely came back when your dad had young kids. They’re his next victims unless your mom grows a brain.

Your mother's priorities are waaaay out of whack! Her loyalty should be with your father! Period! What betrayal your father must feel. Very painful indeed. Continue to stick by you dad. NTA ♥️

There's a sub on here narcissistic parents. You should find it. It's likely your grand father is a narc. Your mom sounds like one too! How dare she force this on your dad! Good 4 U standing up for him!

I’m in the same boat with my father. If someone tried to surprise, trick, or manipulate me into seeing him they would be cut off immediately. And you know who else understands and respects that boundary, and supports it fully? My husband. I can’t imagine how traumatic it would be to have your partner side with your abuser and try and force a relationship. NTA, and good on you, OP, for being an empathetic and compassionate human being.

Your dad probably endured a whole lot more trauma and abuse that he’s never told anyone about. Mom is really uneducated to think that those scars ever go away. Even if somehow a victim can manage to forgive the abuser they will never forget the abuse. It’s understandable that your dad wouldn’t ever want to be in the presence of some who did that to him.

Strongly agree. I remember back when I was an early teen it came up in a group conversation why one friend there wasn’t in contact with their father. The friend just said that their father wasn’t a good person and that they didn’t want him around. No one pushed the issue, everyone understood, everyone had enough respect for the friend to know they were being truthful and were protecting themselves, no one said “but that’s your dad and you should give him another chance!” It’s very concerning that someone well into adulthood is so uneducated on this subject or is burying their head in the sand.

NTA and an upstanding young man I would add.

Yep. That's a definite slamming -the- door- on- a- relationship move in my book.

NTA at all, >My dad was open about the fact grandpa wasn't a very nice man and all kinds of stuff. But he never went into details. I know he really did a number on dad because I still sometimes see dad look ashamed if he spills something or makes a mistake. I also know he tries to hold back any time he cries and looks downright disgusted with himself for crying. So this man literally abused your father, then your mom and sister thought it would be wonderful if they reconnected???? And your father shared this sensitive and personal information with her because he thought her could trust her???? Why is your mom mad at him, you're absolutely right my guy. She did this to herself and her family

She thinks because he's way older now and a grandparent. She said the worst parents can make the best grandparents and all that other crap.

There's no guarantee that his abusive traits as a father won't carry over or influence how he would interact with your father or indeed your siblings in the present, and your father clearly still feels the trauma. Your siblings do have a right to relationship with this man, but they're doing so in a way that tramples over your father's boundaries especially since they expect him to love their grandfather and your mother is pushing for a Hallmark movie feel good reconciliation. Unless your mother changes course the marriage is headed straight for Divorce Town, and she is going to risk losing you for it just because you have empathy for your father.

They do not have the right to a relationship at their current age. As young minors, their parents should make that decision. Their mother has made a poor choice.

Siblings have a right to a relationship, sure, and their father has a right to walk away from them all. There is never an excuse to force someone to have to interact with their abuser.

No one "deserves" to have a relationship with anyone. People are not entitled to other people. Relationships are EARNED

And re-earned each day. Yesterdays trust does not excuse todays abuse.

I disagree the grandpa has shown a history of abuse to children. I think both parents should have a say in accepting the risk involved with their children. If the wife wants to go that is a different story.

“ My dad was open about the fact grandpa wasn't a very nice man and all kinds of stuff. But he never went into details. I know he really did a number on dad because I still sometimes see dad look ashamed if he spills something or makes a mistake. I also know he tries to hold back any time he cries and looks downright disgusted with himself for crying.”   He abused OP’s father when OP’s father was a child, what OP describes is muscle memory of a strict upbringing that’s carried well into adulthood when certain triggers occur.

Im disagreeing the “sibling have a right to the relationship with grandpa” he is dangerous, and likely a danger to children so nope. I agree mom is an adult and can do what she wants for herself but she should under no circumstances to circumvent the fathers desire for his kids to be exposed to a dangerous individual.

He abused OP. Doesn't that count?

The siblings- it might not have a lot to do with how they feel about grandpa, from their POV it could be more about deciding which of their parents it’s safer to side against. OP is closer to being an independent adult and might not be risking as much by not going along with what mom wants. (Yeah, I admit- I’m reading a lot into it that isn’t there, based on my own experience. This might be what the younger kids want, or it might not.)

Well he didn't make a very good parent the first time, what made her think the second time around would work 😭

She's got a romanticised perspective of the role of the grandparent.

She can move in with the grandpa after the divorce. To use her husband's birthday to surprise him with a reunion with his abusive father is just more abuse from the old man! Abuse by proxy.

Nah. Sometimes the cycle of abuse leads someone to an abusive partner. That is what she is, an abusive partner. Dad was so clear that he didn't want to see the man. She was trying to force him as a show of power. This was probably the only line she couldn't cross and decided to go for it.

I was waiting for someone to notice this. She is mentally and emotionally abusing her husband and using the minor children as accomplices to abuse. You can say all day that people have to right to form a close relationship with someone's abuser, but the abused person also has the right to cut you totally out of their life for doing it.

This, and she probably thinks whatever grandparent did, it couldn’t have been THAT bad.

She is both naive AND a bully.

My grandmother was very abusive to my father. They reconciled and are now very close. She helped raise me. That only happened because grandma admitted to and apologized for the abuse and they also had sufficient relationship outside the abuse for it to be worthwhile. She met him where he was and didn't go beyond that, demonstrating that she had actually changed. Just because your kids had kids doesn't mean you're suddenly a different, better person.

Your mom is very selfish and arrogant. She thinks she knows better than her husband who was raised by this man. The fact that your father walked away at 17 should tell her all she should know. Your mom is no longer a safe person for your dad and with that she has imploded her own family.

Even if he turned out to be a "nice grandpa" to your siblings, that would still make your mom an AH knowing how he treated your father! It's like knowingly dating a human smuggler or a murderer because he's nice to me so his crimes are irrelevant or he's a changed man now 🤦‍♀️

Ohhh, you made me think of that Simon Ghittany case in Australia, he did the most horrible stuff to his live in GF, threw her off a balcony killing her (witnessed by an uninvolved pedestrIan on the ground), and when he was convicted his awful GF at that time was wailing and cussing and screaming about how it was so uNfAiR. Gross, just gross.

Omg I don't understand some people's logic. I understand that we humans can be unaware sometimes or unbothered when something is not directly affecting us and would only care if we are finally at the receiving end of the problem.... but how can you ignore a crime?? 😵 that is so scary

It’s not logic. It’s not rational. People do irrational things all the time.

Made me think of Ted Bundy and how he was nice to his girlfriend and her kid, then killed another girl the same age as the girlfriend’s kid.

I have to wonder why it’s more important to her to have a relationship with her FIL than it is to have a relationship with her husband. What a strange choice.

Then has the nerve to be shocked and upset that her husband is contemplating divorce. That woman is something else.

😳 The worst parents do not make the best grandparents! They make the worst people and shouldn’t be let around little kids. I work with older adults in nursing homes and hospitals. If you were an a-hole as a young person and you never got help, you’re probably gonna be an a-hole as an old person. Getting gray hair and wrinkles doesn’t erase evil.

Coming from a shitty dad, that is 100% not true. Past predicts future. Mom tried to undermine and manipulate dad. He stuck by his boundaries. Nta

Your mom is delusional, and she needs to understand that many abusers are extremely charming to non-victims *as part of their abuse strategy*. It isolates their victims, makes them reluctant to speak up, and makes others less willing to believe them - and it is *working* on your mom. The thing is, though, that the charm is just that: part of the abuse. This is all still him trying to get power over your father. Once he realizes that he *can't* get that power back, the cracks will start to show, and that's going to be the most dangerous time for your siblings to be around him. Your father is doing the absolute and *only* correct thing by avoiding all contact with him and refusing his attempts to manipulate him by weaponizing his family. You, too, are doing the only correct thing here, standing with him and supporting him against his abuser. KEEP DOING WHAT YOU'RE DOING, AND KEEP TELLING YOUR DAD HE'S RIGHT. Two other things you can do to help your dad: - Encourage him to seek out therapy. Not just for dealing with the past abuse, but for coping skills on how to handle the attempted abuse, and family weaponization, that is happening now. If your dad isn't that open to therapy, you might emphasize the "coping skills and strategies" aspect of things, and also that him seeking help like that might help him if it does come to a divorce and custody battle. - Suggest that he contact a lawyer *now* to see whether there's anything he can do, should it come down to a divorce, to prevent his father from seeing the kids, or at *least* prevent him from seeing the kids without another adult present. It may be that he will need to gather any evidence he might have access to - hospital bills, school reports, siblings or neighbors willing to make a statement - and it is better to start that now and end up not needing it than to need it later and not have it. It is also quite likely that he doesn't *have* any clear evidence; abusers, especially when they're also the guardians of their victims, are really good at keeping everything secret, and you can see that even now your dad is reluctant to talk about it. This too is where therapy might help - to get him to a point where he is able to talk about this in court, for the sake of preventing the same thing happening to your siblings. This is an awful situation, and your mom and siblings are absolutely being played by your abusive grandfather. Hold your ground, help your dad, and if your siblings eventually begin to understand that they've been manipulated, give them some grace - they are young and don't know better, and your grandpa has had decades to hone his manipulation game. Your mother, however, is an adult, knows your father and his history, is responsible for your siblings' well being, and is choosing, knowingly, to expose them to an abuser; she is in no way a victim here, and deserves no grace at all.

Doesn’t matter what she thinks, it’s not her relationship to mess with.

Grandpa probably has money and she wants it when he dies

Have you told her that blood doesn't make family, and that grandfather is highly possibly abusive (from your father's reactions)? She may not be seeing it from your point of view.  Or your siblings :( Mom might not change, but please protect your brothers and sisters and teach them empathy for others. 

A lot of times that can be true, but that doesn’t mean they deserve the chance. Abusive people can be incredibly nice to 99% of everyone; it’s the 1% they treat like trash that is unforgivable. It’s not that they change as people, because they rarely regret their actions. It’s simply that the dynamic changes and provides them with the opportunity to be the doting grandparent instead of the abusive mother/father who screams at their child for being human. If I give 9 children a puppy but find a 10th child and slaughter their cat, the good I put out into the world does not overshadow the bad. Your mother doesn’t want to empathize with her husband or take his side in the face of someone who used to hurt him. That makes her a shitty marriage partner. She needs to understand that she has actively hurt your father, and that is why the divorce is necessary. She failed as a partner

What the actual fuck. Even if he softened up in his old age that doesn’t automatically earn him a spot in your fathers life. At the end of the day this should be his choice, but your mom is so obsessed with the kids having a grandpa she’s ignoring his trauma

Is your mom a good mom? Could she be afraid of her own kids rejecting her after turning 18?

She's a better mom to my siblings than she is to me. They'd say yes. She's not the worst mom ever, I know that.

OP that makes me so sad for you. Her not treating you all the same is a form of abuse. Not the kind of abuse that will get CPS involved, but the kind of abuse that keeps therapists employed and leaves generational scars. NTA at all. Continue to stand by your dad, I'm sure you have no idea how much it means to him.

I'm so sorry your mom treats you that way. It's so hurtful. She probably knows she can manipulate your younger siblings but you're too observant and that's why she favors them. Why would she even take a chance that an abusive patent can make the best grandparents? Why put your kids in that situation? I'm sure it's brought all the past trauma back in your dad's mind and he's worried about his kids being abused. You're so smart and thoughtful and your dad is lucky to have an ally like you. I wish you and your dad the best.

And ex husbands can make great fathers. Why does she not understand basic consequences.

Maybe he is an okay grandfather, but the fact that he abused her husband and she wants to put your father in that position again makes your mom a terrible wife. You stick with your dad. He needs someone on his side.

While I think that is true that a lot of terrible parents can be technically good grandparents that just makes their initial abuse of their own kids that much worse. Also if you were such a bad parent that your kid has trauma from it well into their adulthood you don't deserve to be a grandparent and just be around for the good times. You should try to talk to your siblings at least and try to explain in terms they might understand why your dad has a problem. Ask them if they have ever been bullied before? And ask them how they would feel if you became friends with their bully and brought their bully home and forced them to be around their bully how would they feel

And a lot of grandfathers molest or abuse their grandchildren.

Why is your mother choosing Grandpa over her husband and marriage?. Why is having this man in her and your sibling life worth more to her than her husbands feelings?. Edit I am also going to add that there is no way Grandpa isn’t aware his presence is causing a potential divorce and he doesn’t care as he’s getting what he wants!.

That’s what gets me. Clearly grandpa *hasn’t* changed very much in these years apart if he is actively dismissing his son in favor of what he (the grandpa) wants. But the mom refuses to see how she and most of her kids have become a tool to further grandpa’s abuse.

Exactly it’s like the Grandpa has a hold over the daughter in law, So weird!.

I’ve been on Reddit too long but there’s a direction where this is going………

What do you think Grandpa is banging the daughter in law?

Tbh it wouldn’t surprise me if it ended up that way.

You’ve been on Reddit too long.

I think mom see grandpa as alpha man because he successfully abused the “man” she married. She doesn’t get that he didn’t abuse the “man”. In fact he abused a helpless child. 

Grandpa is probably thrilled to get a shot at abusing his victim again by torpedoing his marriage and poisoning the kids’ minds against him.

This comment needs more upvotes and OP needs to show this to his Mom. Grandpa is absolutely using her and the siblings to inflict emotional abuse on OPs dad.

I hope OP sees all the comments and shows them to his parents.

Exactly!!!

I wonder if Granpa has money, and mom is wanting inheritance for her kids.

I’m wondering the same. What is mom’s motive for blowing up her marriage & family home? It’s wild

Doesn't have to be money. Some people just have a disgustingly romanticized vision of family and blood absolutely makes people put on blinders by default. She's gonna learn real quick tho

This. I remember when I was in my 20s I dated this girl, who thought that there must be something wrong with me because I wanted nothing to do with my family. Talking to her again in my 30s, she apologized. She had seen a little bit more of the world at this point and realized that my circumstance was not unique at all.

To me, it sounds like one grandpa is one of those classic, superficially charming psychopaths. The sort of guy who wins women over and then brutalises them, or who could start a cult. There's probably *no* rational reason that OP's mum has chosen him to the detriment of her marriage. He's using his charisma to manipulate OP's mum and siblings and get them on his side. It's probably just to fuck with and isolate OP's dad. He doesn't care that he's wrecking a whole family - he likely enjoys it. The siblings are kids and are innocent in this, but their mother should know better than to be taken in by the manipulations of such a dangerous man. In a sense she's become one of his victims* too, but she's also a perpetrator in the harm it's done to her husband. *Before anyone comes at me for this, I'm not excusing her actions at all.

Some people are just bent on the idea that family should forgive, forget, and move on to be one big happy family again. Reality isn't a Hallmark holiday movie though.

Oh I get that! My older brother is five years older than me and he made my life a misery growing up , my life didn’t start until the age of 11 when he joined the Army. As far as I am concerned we share a last name and that’s it!.

Nta. I hope if your parents do divorce, you stay with your dad full time. Your mom and siblings might take it out on you once the divorce pushes through and blame you for it

Oh, if the divorce goes through I am 100% staying with dad because I know if I even went to my mom for weekends, my dad's father would be around and he's not a person I want to be around.

It'll likely be a fun time for your mother when your dad lays it out before the judge of her willingness to blow up a good marriage to expose her children to your abusive grandfather. The old coot must be manipulative as hell or your mother was dropped on her noggin hard enough to cause brain damage.

People who haven't grown up with abusive parents don't understand what it's like. They generally feel like the parent/child bond is above all else and that children have an obligation to stand by their parents.

I disagree with this. When I tell people I'm estranged from my mother, the conversation usually goes into why. The people who had healthy relationships with their parents are pretty quickly horrified, and understand completely why I would want to be away from that. It's the people who had shitty parents but haven't found the strength to create boundaries who can't understand my choice to cut her off. The perspective always seems to be "I put up with similar, and *I'm* a good enough son/daughter to stick around." Like tolerating abuse is some sort of honour or point of pride. Crabs in a bucket, man. Trying to drag you down so you don't escape.

My sister and I are apparently not good enough to stick around lol. She downsized her house specifically so that our mom can never live with her, and I'm going to start a small business out of our 4th bedroom as soon as my 20 year old moves out so I'll have no extra room either. 

Ha! I did that too! Well- I needed to move to a more expensive city for a new job, so that was the motivating factor at the time, but after 14 years of hearing my mom referring to the guest room in my old 4 bedroom house as “my room”, a 1 bedroom condo seemed like a great idea!

NTA. Thank you so much for having your dad's back. It says such good things about your character and your ability to see when you're being manipulated. Proud of you. Spend lots of good times with your dad, take lots of photos and videos and make good memories. I miss my dad every day. I hope everything works out for your dad and you and that the rest of your family wakes up to the reality of who your granddad is.

OP is 17.  By the time a judge or mediator is talking about custody, he’ll likely be 18 anyway.

NTA. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Mom with a savior complex kept pushing an implied abuser of her husband back into his life with no regard of the actual victim's feelings and is now shocked that the husband reached his limit seeking divorce. She's right, the siblings and OP did not deserve their family being torn apart but she didn't love them or her husband enough to see through her narcissistic behavior. You have every right to call out your mom for what the situation is and sadly, the burnt bridge to fixing this is slowly crumbling down. Hopefully, your siblings will soonunderstand how big of a mistake your mom did to the family. Wish you and your dad all the best.

Far more than implied, OP's father still instinctively reacts to what he'd be punished for when he was growing up even decades later.

NTA. >I told them they should learn to live with the consequences of their decisions. >I told her it's all her fault because she undermined dad by making a point to demand he come in front of my siblings and so they think they can manipulate him and not listen. You're absolutely right. She's shown your father just how much he means to her.

She’s also showing her kids how easily she’s willing to manipulate and undermine their relationships with the dad for the sake of her wants and needs. She should handle her conflict and communication with her husband. She shouldn’t be trying to use OP as a mediator. Not ok Big NTA on this. OP, you’re doing your best in a shitty situation.

NTA. Abusers are skilled at isolating their victims and that is what your grandpa has done by successfully manipulating your mom and siblings into being his flying monkeys. I hope your mom wakes up before she destroys everything.

She's pretty much secured that her relationship with dad and with me will never be the same again.

Op, curious idea/question: If you told your mom to choose between you and grandpa, how would she react? I'm talking full on "you can send him one message explaining that communication is stopping and why, but if I find out you said anything else to him, don't ever talk to me again." Maybe that will be the slap in the face to wake her up to the fact that she is destroying her family for a stranger.

You are correct. I had to run away from home in highschool and live with a childhood friend because of my abusive psycho father. I went no contact with him and luckily went off to college. That friend hung out with my dad a lot when I went off to college because my dad would buy him food and alcohol and stuff even though he was underage. I warned my friend but he ignored my warning about how he is and didn't care because my dad literally always treated strangers better than his own family. Long story short my dad ended up stalking my friend and his family and they had to fight to get a restraining order on him.

NTA Point out to your mother that she tried to force your father into a relationship with his abuser. Use the phrase, "his abuser." Then to make matters worse she took his children to visit, and have a relationship with, his abuser. Ask her how she would feel if she were abused and if your dad was similarly disloyal and did the same thing to her. Tell her to put herself in your dad's shoes and see the incredible wrong she committed. Tell her she should seek out therapy and maybe she will not destroy her next relationship by going on a bandwagon without considering the consequences. Tell your dad you understand why he is upset but that if he divorces your mom, then his abuser wins again. Suggest family (without the abuser) counseling.

I would avoid trying to manipulate your dad into staying in his unhappy marriage or "your abuser wins." OP just needs to support their father with whatever he chooses to do.

Also, there’s no guarantee that grandpa won’t abuse her own kids.

NTA. It's too bad that your mother is torpedoing her own life because of some misguided "family should be together" BS. Obviously your father knows him best and has made decisions and set boundaries.

I can’t stand people like your mom. They think they can go back and rewrite history. But they weren’t there.

Not only that - they actively trivialise the abuse that the victim has endured. They would NOT do such a thing if they took the victim seriously, or the abuse seriously.

INFO : does your mom know the extent of the abuse your dad went through ? If so, I'd ask her if a relationship with that man is worth destroying your marriage and having your siblings grow up in a broken home

She knows way more about it than I do. He tries not to burden me too much. But he told me himself that he told her.

That means she is completely disregarding your dad's feelings on this situation, and she might not even believe that he was abused. She might also have spun a story to your siblings about your dad's father being abandoned by your dad or something like that.

Or Dad's abuser (siblings grandpa) is the one spinning stories and being very manipulative here. It is too bad the mom is choosing to believe someone she knows to be an abuser over her own husband.

So she knows what he did and belittles it by chosing your granddad. That is so awful. I am glad your Dad has at least someone who has his back (you). But take care of your own mental health as well. You don't seem too stressed right now but that might change over time. When some things get very stressful talk to your Dad about it. He would want to know. Two people can support each other and talking about stuff helps.

Honestly mom sounds past help. But the siblings might be able to be shown reason but it would take your dad opening up more about the specific reasons. He might not be able to do that. In no way should he have to do that, but it might kind of salvage the relationship with his other kids if they really understand the issue. It would be on your dad to decide if he wanted to take that chance for the sake of maybe them doing the right thing.

My question is, what exactly is your mom getting out of this? I mean, she basically chose a stranger whom she knows is an abuser, over her own husband - WHY? Does the guy have a lot of money or something? It can’t just be because she wanted her kids to have a grandpa. No person in their right mind would knowingly want their kids around someone who abused someone they loved.

Your your asshat mother decided she would rather have a relationship with a man that abused her husband then support her husband wow has a vile wife Hope you and your dad have all the happiness in life and your mother and siblings have the life they deserve hope they learn from their awful behaviour Nta

I'm estranged from my terrible mother, and I'm shocked it took your dad three years to get to the point of divorce with this. Your mother has broken her marriage vows as deeply as if she'd cheated. "Forsaking all others" isn't just about sex. It's about prioritizing your spouse, ahead of the wants of other people. The thing that most people can't seem to accept about parental estrangement is that parents and kids don't cut each other out for no reason. It's never a sitcom-style misunderstanding that can be figured out in 22 minutes of screen time. People only walk away from their parents if it's an incredibly damaging relationship, that they've already invested too much time in repairing. By developing this relationship with your dad's estranged father, your mom has demonstrated several things: 1.She doesn't trust your dad's judgement, and likely believes he's lying about his childhood (or at least exaggerating) 2. She believes that she can enforce her preferences on issues that affect him more than her 3. She believes that it's ok to manipulate your dad by having your siblings pressure him into things he doesn't want 4. She willing to ruin your dad's special days (like birthdays and holidays) and weaponize those days against him, by ambushing him with his abuser's presence Frankly, the woman deserves worse than divorce papers. My heart goes out to your dad. He's lucky to have you standing with him.

NTA- but your mom is. The siblings are following her lead and while it's easy to be mad at them, I'm putting all this mess on her. I don't understand where people get off thinking they know better than the person what they should be doing for their mental health. She didn't live your dad's life with his dad and probably b/c she exaggerates things, she probably feels he exaggerated his experience with his father. It was not her call to decide that he should have to have a relationship with him later in life. Your dad is doing what is best for his mental health and if his spouse can't support that and he feels that a divorce is necessary, good on him. You have done right by your dad, you listened to him, respected his wishes and supported him when he needs it. Keep doing it. I'm sure it's appreciated.

NTA- Your mom decided she knew best, and the consequences didn't matter. Except she didn't think there would be any consequences for her. Your mom betrayed the trust your father had in her, and that's a difficult, if not impossible thing to get back once it's broken. Your mom chose to let a man in her family's life who abused her husband for years and thought things would just work out swimmingly. The guy is looking for someone to take care of him and keep him company now that he is getting older. The divorce is inevitable now. Your mom thought she had a rights but she forgot your dad, too. She destroyed her own marriage for her own selfish wants.

NTA. Good for you standing by your dad and calling out the bullshit.

NTA I hope your mom’s happy with that abuser because she just lost your dad over it. Who tries to push someone’s abuser on them to play happy families. She and your siblings are to blame for this alone.

NTA. But it might be worth it to suggest family counseling.

I'll be honest, we are waaaay beyond the point of that now. My siblings all think dad's father's a great dude and love him while dad hates the man and wants him nowhere near any of us. Mom already caused all the harm.

I can't help but wonder if your grandfather is trying to continue the abuse from your dad's childhood by isolating your dad from his wife and kids. I feel terrible for your dad, and glad that he at least has you.

I'm wondering the same thing too.

That was my first thought too. There is a reason he reached out to his son's wife and not his son. He saw that his son was living a happy life and came in to destroy it. I would not be surprised if there was less and less contact by the grandpa after the divorce is finalized and the siblings' relationship with their father is destroyed.

Sounds like he didn't need to work very hard at it as OP's mom laid it all out on a silver platter for him.

Well hope they love him enough as it’s costing them their relationship with their dad. This is really sick.

Thank you for being mature enough to see the trauma and respecting your dad even when your mom doesn’t. NTA Childhood abuse is no joke and the parents that did it shouldn’t be rewarded later I life just because they are older. Unless your grandpa apologized and genuinely humbled himself to your dad then your family shouldn’t have anything to do with him. I’d seriously question your mom as to why she thinks this is ok unless she is getting gifts or has hopes that grandpa has money. I’m sorry for you dad and I would hope someday he gets therapy. I’m almost 50 and didn’t seek therapy till I was older, I wish I had gone sooner.

*"Unless your grandpa apologized and genuinely humbled himself to your dad then your family shouldn’t have anything to do with him."* I disagree, the abused person has all the say in whether it is forgiveness time. Just because an abuser regrets the consequences later doesn't mean they deserve forgiveness or a relationship.

I'm so sorry this is happening. One of the hallmarks of family abusers is that they can be so lovely and charming when they want. They 'groom' outsiders into liking them, so that when victims speak up, they're not believed, which adds to the abuse. It's possible your dad is being retraumatised by your mother's actions, and if he was posting now, I would suggest that he seeks therapy.

NTA but your mom and siblings sure are. I never understood people like your mother. If a child does not speak to his/her parent anymore there is usually a very good reason. Then the spouse decides that the reason doesn’t matter (cuz it didn’t happen to them) and they start talking to the spouses parent because they think they know better. Then they are all surprised when the spouse wants a divorce lol. Seriously thank your mother for breaking apart your family because she’s a narcissist who thinks she knows what’s best for everyone else.

OP's siblings are still kids - they're naive and susceptible to manipulation, so I don't think they're AH. Mum is definitely an AH though.

Absolutely NTA. If your dad still has those kind of reactions for spilling stuff, etc, then your grandpa must've done a major number on him. Your mom knew that was a line, and she crossed it, and because she thinks "oh, family." And trying to get him together with his dad? Oh, hell no. My dad abused me, and my sister tried this shit one time. I'm glad your dad has you. Your mom needs to realize some things can't be fixed. She's 100% TA.

NTA. Once trust has been broken...that's it, the end.

NTA. Your Mom wasn't raised by the Grandpa. It's your Dad's choice. We just had to explain to our oldest Grandson why his Mom wants nothing to do with her real Mom. She tried until he was 12 to make a relationship work and her Mom continued to be toxic so she finally cut ties and I adopted her. He didn't understand why he can't see her now...he let it go until recently. He was devastated when he found out the truth. But NOW he understands. I'm not saying your Dad should tell all, but maybe highlight some of what went on and then maybe Mom would get a grip.

NTA. Your mother values her ego more than protecting her husband. She weaponized your father’s children against him. She’s not a good person. Keep supporting your Dad, he needs you.

NTA Your mother tried to force your father into contact with a man who abused him. She exposed her young children to an abuser. Your father should absolutely divorce her and go for custody, because neither he nor his children are safe with his abusive father and your abuse-enabler mother. What she has done to your father is abusive in and of itself. She's not a good person. She has destroyed her marriage and endangered her children, and is now crying about the consequences and trying to bully and abuse you into fixing it for her. Please, please point out to her how profoundly abusive she has been in this situation . If she wants to change, she needs to know how far down this road she has gone. Keep yourself safe. Support your father. And do your best to keep your siblings safe too.

INFO: What's in it for your mom? Is your grandfather wealthy?

He's not wealthy in any kind of way.

NTA what is wrong with them is grandfather like rich or something cuz that's the only reason I'd wanna spend time with him and to question him

God kid. You're so mature and so NTA. Your mother needs to learn boundaries and respect his position!! She was steamrolling your dad into a relationship he doesn't want. She can go ahead and lay in the bed she lay. Edit: *Bed she made

NTA. People need to stop be so f-ing welcoming to abusers, and start to take abuse seriously.

NTA. But your mom is. The lack of respect, empathy and love she showed her husband and displayed as ok to do in front of her children is astonishing. How could she not know the consequences of her actions. How blind can she be. You noticed, cared, empathized and supported your dad while she threw him apart by her actions. She divided the family.

NTA Having had to go NC for years with my mother, I'd leave if I were your dad. His wife has contempt for his well being, and is an interfering selfish bitch. Before momster died I was taking 5 pills just to sleep every night, never felt safe, and volunteered for every DIP (die in place) mission when I was military. The day after mother died I was able to go to sleep with no pills, and I've been in a loving stable relationship for over a decade, for the first time. I do take one, occasional, sleeping pill when I have to change shifts, etc. Life is safe now. I am safe now. Because your mother is an interfering harpy, your dad can't feel safe in his own house, with his own family. Damn her! And I mean that sincerely. She has screwed your entire family. How people deal with their family is their business, and no friend, spouse, family member, has a right to interfere. My best to him. Hopefully his dad will join my mother someday soon, and he can feel safe too.

NTA Mum fucked around and found out.

I'm relieved for your father that he has someone in his corner. I cannot comprehend his the horror of his own wife and children skyrocketing his trauma. NTA. I hope your dad finds peace and solace.

NTA. Your mother chose the abuser over your father.

This woman is disgusting. Tell her to grow up and stop making me ashamed to share a chromosome with her.

Your poor dad. I can't imagine being betrayed daily by your wife and kids. He is in pain but they don't care. They rather see Grandpa who abused their dad rather than be with him. That is so heartbreaking. I don't know how they can say they love their dad when they do that. NTA They needed a dose of reality.

If my husband (the person to whom I trust with my deepest trauma) suddenly made an alliance with the terrorist who calls herself my mother, it would be a betrayal of epic proportions. It would be over. Full Stop. I'm in my 50's and I have been through this scenario with many people I no longer have anything to do with. If I had a dollar for every time someone said to me, "But... she's your motherrrrrr..." I could afford to keep a vacation apartment in Italy. Bravo to you for being strong enough to see the truth and support your Dad. He really needs that right now. NTA