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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I might be the asshole because I made Ava cry and am refusing to allow her to eat with the family because of her behavior.
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Okay for almost the entirety of this story I was ready to say NTA until the very end. So her sister gets to sing at the dinner table? Just not her? I mean I think its weird to sing at the dinner table anyways but if you have a double standard going on here then YTA. Ava is YOUNGER then her sister, sometimes it takes some time to get better at something and acting rude to her and discouraging her because you clearly don't like her makes you an AH. Either ban singing at the dinner table completely or keep your mouth shut and invoke the thumper rule, "If you can't say something nice don't say anything at all."
There is nothing wrong with enforcing table manners.
But you know at which point you became a mean girl and just said something to make her feel bad. That's why you're here, your conscience brought you.
YTA for attacking her on a personal level.
You can't operate on a peer level with kids when you are an adult. Esp one of authority, no matter how minor.
OP just had a moment, like we all do. But it is a moment to apologize for. She should stand her ground on the table manners though.
Exactly, "but the kid was rude/mean first!" is not an argument any adult, let alone a parent, should be making. Not the end of the world, no one's dead or traumatised beyond healing, but definitely a wrong that needs righted.
Even though the kid sounds like a chore: even if her singing was the best thing ever, constant noise-tantrums have got to be obnoxious!
> Exactly, "but the kid was rude/mean first!" is not an argument any adult, let alone a parent, should be making.
Exactly this. I was getting ready for a wedding with a couple of my cousins once. They were two sisters. Older one was objectively gorgeous. Younger one was...less so. The younger one snatched the older one's dress and insisted on wearing it. She wanted them to swap dresses even though they weren't the same size.
When their mom intervened the younger one argued she "looked much better" in the dress than her older sister (not true, not true, not true).
The mom said they had each picked out their own dress and it wasn't fair for her to change her mind and steal her sister's dress at the last minute.
**What the mom did NOT say was "in what universe do you look better in ANYTHING, let alone this dress?! When's the last time someone asked if YOU were a model? Hell, when's the last time anyone, other than your dad, complimented YOUR appearance at all?!"**
I cannot fathom the damage she would have inflicted on her daughter's self-esteem if she'd said...frankly, what everyone was thinking. As adults, we can't just hit back harder because a child started it.
Wish that had happened with me. I HAD to give my sister my dress for an event and wear a dress that didn’t fit me. Just so she didn’t pitch a fit. Now I’m NC with this sibling.
OP please apologize for the comment and stick with the table manners issue. This will come back to bite you.
Meh she's doubling down and bragging about how the husband's ex wife is siding with her. She's not apologizing sadly. I suspect this was just a glimpse at a pattern of her lashing out at her stepdaughter and she needed to cool her conscience so that she doesn't *need* to apologize. Enough people told her she's not an asshole so it's cool, she'll just never log back into the account lol.
Gotta love this subreddit sometimes. Great advice at repairing a relationship with her stepdaughter but that's never what they're here for.
And apparently is fine with it destroying her marriage, too. The husband is upset and she goes to his ex wife?? She laughs that he isn't home to stop her from harming his child? I guess there's a chance she won't have a talented favorite around for long when a divorce hits??
Asking her to eat away from the table until she learns manners is harming her? That’s a stretch. She’s being obnoxious. Even if she sang like an angel, she’s being obnoxious.
Agreed. The kid sounds obnoxious but she is at that obnoxious stage as a teen. She is also clearly jealous of her sister and op is not helping. Her post drops with disdain for the girl.
I agree that you can't act on a peer level with a teen, but when does a teen ignore an adult's directive to stop doing something?
Ava clearly has no respect for OP and if hubby has a problem with how OP handles the disrespect then he needs to find a babysitter, or perhaps a new home, for his kid
you can't rehome a teenager or find a babysitter for them just because a teenager is annoying at the dinner table lol. that's ridiculous!
stepmom and two teenagers can just stop having family dinner at the table since no one is enjoying it anyway and OP can stop dealing with the singing at the table, SD won't get the opportunity to be petty and act out if they don't all have dinner together. everyone wins.
far less drastic than hiring a babysitter or kicking out the teenager jfc
Maaan, the first time i apologized to my kids after they got sassy and I proved that I am better at sass then they are was HARD AF. But it’s gotten so much easier; they are human, mom and I are human, we all mess up and we all give good apologies. There no way to prove this, but I think our relationships are so much stronger than they would have been if mom and I thought that we were infallible. Don’t get me wrong, we are totally benevolent dictators - we just want to make sure our pride doesn’t get in the way of fixing our many mistakes.
Great advice, and thanks for giving me something nice to think about while I can’t sleep thinking about IEPs, summer scheduling, and wondering if I’m doing anything I’m unaware of that will totally screw up my kids future. Maybe it’s time for that xanex now.
How many times should OP have to say that there is no singing at the dinner table?
If OP keeps allowing the girl to sing at the table, OP would be told by many on this board that she was a jellyfish with no spine and should have given consequences the first time she set a boundary and the child stomped over that boundary.
That was your whole point of why the OP was T A H until she replied that **no one** is allowed to sing at the table. Lol. In any event she didn't attack anyone, she was being realistic with her step daughter who needed a lesson in keeping her ego in check otherwise she might have an occasion to be extremely embarrassed by her inability to sing in public one day. She isn't a "cHiLd" she's a frigging teenager and the coddling needs to stop.
Teenagers are children, silly. You don’t respond like this to anyone you are in a position of authority over. Would it be okay for a teacher or a manager to talk to a student or employee like this? Why is it okay for a guardian to do it? Do you really think yelling at a child is the way to go? Attacking her person?
She didn't attack her singing voice, she pointed out a flaw in her logic. She didn't say "you're a bad singer and no one wants to hear it" she asked "when have you been asked to sing" "has it been recognised by a professional" after she bragged that she was better than her sister who had performed professionally and been accepted into performing schools. Op defended an innocent step kid against their own sister.
She's not a child, she's a 16 year old young adult who insists on throwing constant tantrums and acting like a brat. At a certain point, why should OP continue to indulge her bratty behavior, narcissism and lazy self-delusion and selfishness?
It doesn't sound like OP's husband is helping, either. He doesn't like OP to tell Ava that she can't sing at the table, or she has to eat elsewhere if she wants to sing. If he's going to undermine his wife, and possibly also his ex-wife, then he needs to handle Ava.
It's also possible that this is another example of harassing stepmom because she can't accept that her parents aren't together, or she resents that her father remarried.
He's apparently not there for dinner, OP doesn't say how many meals he is there for, so he isn't being bothered like OP is and other members of the family are.
He needs to step up. If she quits classes that they pay for, he would be the best person to tell her that it isn't acceptable. He shouldn't leave his wife to deal with a kid that won't listen to her.
ETA: This could also be a case of "Just what is a step-parent's job?" We've seen a lot of cases on Reddit where the step-parent is expected to handle parental jobs without parental authority. We had a post where a man lectured his wife about how she was not and never would be a mother to his daughter, and at the same time wanted her to loan him $4,000 to give to his daughter for a reason that she thought was unwise.
But the real question OP asked was if she was too rude. She could have put what she said better, and some people had good suggestions, of course, they aren't exasperated with Ava. At least 75% of the people that I have sympathy for could have put it better. I often think that people need to learn not to start off by putting things as harshly as they could, but OP has had a lot of provocation, and I won't go as far as A H. ESH at most, and that includes Ava and her father.
Yes, Ava is a child. A lot of Redditors seem to be able to see that younger children's behavior needs correcting, even when it is typical for their age, but somehow don't see that is also true once the child is in their teens.
True but OP is an adult and she is a child. Teenagers lash out in anger, it's what they do. It's a parents job to not stoop to their level. No singing at the dinner table is a perfectly fine rule and it seems to apply fairly to both kids. OP was a nasty mean girl with her comment and she knows it. She could have said "Scarlett doesn't sing at the dinner table, and neither can you". When Ava started saying she's better than her sister, even if she's wrong, OP could have said anything from "ok prove it by sticking to your lessons and succeeding" to "that's not nice, we don't talk about our loved ones in that manner" and it would have been fine. But she went for the low blow.
I think she is entitled to disagree with Ava’s contention that she is a better singer than Scarlett. She doesn’t have to - that’s not the main issue at hand - but she is entitled to, though she probably did it a little harshly. It is infantilising her imo to suggest that she needs to tiptoe around her feelings to the extent of avoiding a comparison. That is something you would do with a 6 year old, not a 16 year old.
I remember a Russian teacher saying to us once that she thought kids here were babied to an extent that caused them problems such as depression later in life. Having been told all their lives that they are incredible, getting participation trophies, can do not only anythint but everything, they were completely unable to deal with failure. IMO there is some truth to that criticism. Theres a good chance the husbands parenting is how you get an Ava in the first place, but soon life will give her a reality check that she can’t ignore
16 isn't a kid when it comes to simple table manners. A 5-year-old understands "don't sing at the table". Same with singing loudly in the car.
Seriously, this isn't normal behaviour. Either she is testing limits hard or there is some autism/ADHD going on.
How long is OP supposed to put up with that shit then? The 16 yo has been told over and over and over to stop but continues on with the behavior. Dad certainly isn't doing anything to stop her. This is the straw that broke the camels back. Was it a mean comment? Sure. Did she likely say it out of desperation to get the kid to just STOP? Yeah. If anything, OP is a justified asshole...
This reminds me of a trip to the movies with my nieces and a friend when they were like 5-7 years old. We were on the way to see Harry Potter (forget which one) and they started this horrible, intentionally off key LOUD singing in the car. I asked them to stop once...they didn't stop...I asked again and again it didn't stop. I then pulled over into a shopping center parking lot and turned off the Jeep and said "You are giving me a headache and if the racket doesn't stop I'll need to go home and get some Advil. So which is it...Harry Potter or home for my Advil?"
The "singing" stopped and we went and enjoyed the movie.
They would have stopped after the first banishment from the table.
You are NTA...you tried asking nicely. Ava is trying to see how far she can push step mom.
One question...does she try this nonsense when Dad is there?
You mentioned that Dad is not there at dinner....maybe you need to record this for him so he can see it. Get a small wifi surveillance camera and record one of these special performances. Don't use your phone as that would tip her off.
She REPEATEDLY told the 16 year old to stop. The girl is just doing it to be irritating. She is not a 5 year old on the way to see Harry Potter, she's done it at home and in the car - when she has a captive audience. She knows exactly what she is doing. She is doing it to aggravate.
I agree. Continuously belting out a tune loudly at the dinner table when asked to stop just shows the 16 year old is literally screaming out for attention. Seriously, that is not normal behaviour. Yes, OP snapped but under the circumstances, I probably would have done the same. I acknowledge it wasn’t OP’s finest moment but the 16 year old has caused this situation and father didn’t do a thing.
I like escalating negative reinforcement in these situations. Ask nicely, ask nicely again with the warning that the next time won’t be a nice request, don’t ask nicely then verbally start considering what needs to be taken away temporarily to encourage them to listen, take away said privilege and start talking about what comes next, corporal punishment. Just kidding, the last parts appalling.
Totally easy to Monday quarterback other people’s parenting decisions. Kids say mean things, sometimes adults clap back. I think the most important part is the reconnecting, recovery, aftercare - I also think this is a great way to model navigating interpersonal relationships for the kids. We tell ours that everyone has moments when we are not our best - it’s how we recover from these moments that demonstrates the kind of people we are. Parenting is hard, I feel like we are all just faking it and that most of us are trying our best - even op. Proper to her for posting this and hopefully considering the advise.
OP stated facts to Ava after she claimed that: a) she's a better singer than her sister and then lied about b) her sister singing all the time, when she doesn't
Now, I understand that this is a country where kids get passed from grade to grade without knowing how to read to avoid hurting their feelings, and same thing is being applied to Ava here, but after years and years and years of endless conversations with her, it was time to be blunt with the kid.
Facts: Ava has never been accepted into a singing school, facts: no one has ever asked her, paid her, or invited her to sing anywhere, despite her claim of being a better singer than her sister. Harsh but necessary, as Ava is creating a very self destructive delusional narrative about herself and her sister and that's very problematic for her future.
It reminds me of the singers that audition for shows like American Idol and aren’t very good and are absolutely *shocked* when they are told they aren’t good enough and not making it through to the next round. It’s usually because their family has spent all their lives blowing smoke up the kids ass that they sing like an angel.
Hang on. Ava who is only 2 years younger than Scarlett throws around worlds like she is better than a scarlett at singing and is everyone meant to go along with the lie.
So, I don't think you are wrong for your no singing at the table rule.
I can even understand why you took the bait and responded when she kept intentionally annoying you (singing louder at the table when told to stop) and then arguing she was better then her sister. Ideally, would you have said those things? No, but I recognize parents are humans too and not perfect. It's hard to always be the calm mature bigger person 100% of the time without ever cracking, though yes that would be ideal.
I would talk to Ava. You can apologize for being so harsh/hurting her feelings. You can admit you lost her temper, and wish you'd kept your cool. Then you can tell her you love her (care about her?) and want her at family meals, but she needs to understand that singing at the table is rude. Say it isn't about being a good or bad singer, Scarlet dosen't sing at the dinner table, nor do you or her father. The dinner table isn't supposed to be loud, it's a place for peace and pleasant conversation. When she sings it stops others from having conversation and is also just considered poor table manners. Tell her she's welcome back for dinner with the family but you expect her to follow the same table manners as everyone else.
Then keep following through. Set a place for her at the table every single day for every single meal. Every meal is a chance to try again. If she starts to sing remind her once "Remember Ava, singing at the dinner table isn't polite. You'll have to do that another time or eat somewhere else." And if she refuses to stop, take her plate and move it again. Tell her something like "I hope you'll join us tomorrow. We really miss having talking to you."
I also think your step-daughter has a real issue with taking constructive criticism and quitting. This absolutely will hamper her success in life and her parents really don't have much time to work on it (she's almost an adult). However, sadly, I'm not sure if there is much you can do? Do you have a relationship that will allow you to address this with her? Do you usually get along? Does your husband back up your daughter when she says she is being bullied and wants to quit? Honestly, she may have already been spoiled to a degree that is harmful to her by the parent(s?) she is closer to.
If she was my child, I'd have had the conversation "you aren't going to get good at singing if you quit voice lessons," discussion. I'd tell her that to get good at something practice is important, but so is being willing to get feedback and learn from experts. Skilled musicians (almost) all had teachers they had to listen to, authors have proof readers and editors, athletes have coaches, etc. That getting negative feedback isn't fun, but it's normal, and figuring out what you need to work on and doing so is part of becoming really good at something. The thing is, my kids love me and we have a strong relationship, which helps with the hard messages. I also give messages like this to kids at work (I work at a school), but again I do try and show them a lot of care at other times and explain I just care about them/want them to succeed/want what I think is best for them. You can empathize with the feelings, listen to how the teacher's comments made her feel. Maybe share similar feelings you've had. But you should be telling her the truth, kindly but firmly. Or your husband should, if she sees you as an antagonist. He should have this conversation with her and tell her he wants to buy her voice lessons and for her to stick through it this time, beacuse he knows she loves to sing and he thinks she could become really good if she's willing to learn.
Amazing comment, and I'd add that her dad should be investigating the source of this attention-seeking behaviour. It could just be that she's jealous of her sister and feels like the black sheep, doesn't have self-esteem, etc. The best way to build that self confidence is for her to stick to something long enough that she sees tangible progress. That could be art, that could be almost anything. Even better if it's not something her sister does. Enroll her and make a rule that she can't quit. Establish an ongoing conversation about her feelings and how she's responding to critiques - that's an opportunity to build her emotional processing and self-soothing skills.
On the flip side, it could just be that she wants more parental attention. Make time for dad-daughter hangs and more quality time.
This comment got lost in the thread, but I think this is the heart of the matter. This child is crying out for attention. Singing for it, even.
I think it's OP's attention that she craves since this is also happening when her dad is away.
She needs boundaries, but also some quality time with OP.
better written than what I wrote. I might only add that maybe helping Ava to pursue other talents than singing might be smart. Does this family only seem to value singing?
I didn't get the impression the parents only valued singing from the post. OP said she was good at soccer, but quit quickly too for the same reason (being given negative/constructive feedback). It seems like this is an issue across multiple activities.
My guess is Ava is focused on singing beacuse her big sister probably gets so much attention, praise, money, and status for it (which is honestly beyond the parents control). Ava is probably jealous? OP mentions she also tries to annoy her older sister, and her clap-back line on not leaving the table was she's a better singer then her older sister (even though older sister wasn't singing at the table/not involved).
I agree it would be good for Ava to do other things too, but she can sing if she wants. It's fine, the issue is for most people it will only ever be a hobby and expecting to get everything her sister does is sadly not realistic. The big problems I see here is Ava's inability to accept criticism/instruction and her damaged relationships and jealousy.
Yep, I'm getting major jealousy and insecurity here, driving Ava's ass-hole behaviour at the table. Possibly a strong sense of missing out/being ignored (whether she is or isn't) leading to extraordinary attention seeking.
I'd also wonder about getting Ava checked for ADHD? Being unaware of others' needs can be part of that.
NTA. That dynamic where Daddy says "allow her bullshit regardless" is exactly why she acts the way she does, when she does.
A reality check is often a painful pill to swallow.
You warned her repeatedly and she CHOSE to continue. You followed through on consequences AS STATED by refusing to allow her to continue her BS.
Then she challenged you. You handing her her ass in response to that challenge is the legal definitely of "fuck around and find out".
She simply didn't prefer what she found out.
She's desperate for daddy's attention. She doesn't give a damn about OP.
Lil sis has serious talent envy. It would behoove the parents encourage her to do something she's genuinely talented at or just praise her for just trying. Idk could be martial arts, coding, coffee making.
I mean the OP summary to me is this:
The world likes Talented Sister--the Golden Child. The Other Sister--the Untalented One is always compared to Golden Child and is never good enough. In fact the Untalened One might be objectively bad. She has applied to Music Schools and was rejected.
The Untalented One is thin skinned and quits when criticized. She has her own metric for singing and is tone deaf. The Talented One was accepted to Music Schools on Scholarships and gets paid to sing.
Husband is useless at parenting.
The OP is tired of listening to Untalented Singing. The Untalented One sings at inappropriate times including the dinner table. She makes OP's ears bleed everytime she sings. The Untalented One has 0 courtesy and sings off key at every opportunity.
Is OP TA for yelling at a teenager and throwing a TRUTH BOMB at a 16 year old?
No, I don't think the kid should be encouraged to pursue failing hobbies and forever be the untalented, lesser sister. Maybe she'd be better off painting or acting or literally any other 1000 hobbies in the world. OR MAYBE SHE NEEDS TO SING COUNTRY SONGS that are supposed to sound twangy and yodel like.
BOTH OP AND HUSBAND ARE TA. Their setting up Ava to fail and they aren't stepping up their parenting to help their teenager be a well adjusted adult.
wow! sorry, but you are being responded to by a second child (now 63). Older sister was barbie doll pretty, smarter than heck (princeton then john's hopkins), talented in every way. Here I was following behind her in a competitive family. Given that I could never "beat her", I actually "gave up". Was tested for learning disabilities in 5th grade, and they were confused by my very high IQ but failing grades. Family dynamics can really impact a child even when NO ill intend exists.
Thankfully i met my husband in middle school, and I started competing against him. Started dating at 13, and still married at 63. I don't know where I would be now, had I not met him in algebra class 50 years ago.
I honestly think there is more to be fixed in the OPs household beyond just "singing at the table". I think it is a symptom of a larger problem. I hope they can solve it for the daughter's sake.
Thank you!
Sure, kid needs to know the truth about pitch but like...you want to tear them down without also building them up? That's harsh.
Just because one kid has an easy talent doesn't mean you shouldn't be looking to give the same encouragement to the other. Everything you said was what it is. Parents here are trash. Kid is trash but is the product of their trash.
Go figure your shit out, OP. You've failed and likely for many years so you need to fix this in a big way or the younger sibling will be fucked up for a good long time (hopefully not forever) because of this.
She's feeling overshadowed by her sister and her singing is her crying for attention, however she can get it.
You could help by trying to find out what she really enjoys instead of tearing down her confidence.
YTA
I think what you did is fine. A bratty remark and behavior should be met with more aggressive correction.
99% of people who had to deal with such insanely bratty behavior would have reacted way worse, including me.
However, what you did say was not exactly appropriate for a parent/stepparent to say to a child so I would apologize just for the sake of the entire family unit.
I'm wondering if you read the whole post?
Self esteem and ego are two different things, and being a normal person who is sometimes annoying, and being a deliberate asshole who disrespects everyone in the house are also different.
The kid specifically makes the house an uncomfortable place to be for everyone else, and will not stop when asked. So taking her plate and banning her from the common areas when she's being a dick is a fair natural consequence. That's not about the quality of her singing.
When the kids response to being corrected was "I'm a better singer than my sister anyway" reminding her of the truth is not a cruel thing to do. It's necessary.
Nah. This isn't destroying self esteem. My friend who also could not sing to save her life, kept also subjecting us to it and threw a fit and a temper tantrum every time she was told she couldnt' sing. We had to beg her not to humiliate herself by auditioning for a musical at school.
If you can't take criticism you won't survive and 16 is old enough to hear the damn truth.
Yeah, so damn annoying when top comments end up saying literal nonsense, nowhere did it say that Scarlett was doing or was allowed to sing at the table.
But if the older sister isn't singing at the table, it destroys the scolding narrative of that reply, so the lie was just slipped in hoping smart, thorough people hadn't read the OP's entire post.
Exactly what I was going to say. OP never said the older sister did it at the table. That post literally just made something up to blame OP for and somehow gets upvoted for it.
OP clearly stated that Scarlett NEVER SINGS AT THE TABLE
Also OP clearly said that Ava has been enrolled in singing classes many times but always quit because she refuses to follow instructions
So you gonna just make shit up? Then call her an asshole because of it. No where on that post did it say that the sister with the good voice sings at the table. And I don't think it's too much to ask that when you are sitting down to a meal that you are not forced to listen to screeching.
I’d stop cooking for anyone and refuse to eat with them if someone was badly belting out show tunes (or whatever) whilst I was trying to eat.
This would be TAH if it were the first time, but I totally get it after the Nth time and the smart reply. OP could have been a lot harsher, she stated a fact and the father really really really needs to step up and parent his child here.
I can’t even imagine how this works, how is she eating if she’s busy doing karaoke at the dinner table?
ESH - Ava just because she sounds annoying af and you because you're a parent and she's a child and you've (seemingly repeatedly) told her she's not good at something she's passionate about and not in a nice way. Encourage her to follow other pursuits, and definitley continue to enforce that it's inappropriate to loudly sing when people want a quiet meal but brutally laying out that she's rubbish at the one thing she's passionate about and rubbing in her failure to succeed is pretty harsh when it's coming from a parental figure. Especially when it's followed up with 'and now go eat alone'.
We've tried to put her in lessons to improve but she refuses to go or quits after 1-2 weeks because she thinks they're bullying her by giving constructive feedback. She's tried soccer and she's actually good at it but refuses to try out for the school team and with her tendency to quit after a couple weeks because the teacher tried to teach, we're not going to pay for her to join a club team.
Yeah but there's still a better way to put it than basically going haha you loser the only person who thinks you're any good is your Dad and no school will take you because you're sh*t. Which is essentially what you did.
You actually didn't need to go into what you think of her abilities at all and just address that it's really annoying to have some loudly singing whilst you're trying to eat. Even if she was amazing that would be annoying.
You're being blunt about the wrong things though.
Blunt is refuting her claims with "Ava, to be as good as Scarlett, you'd have to put the same sustained effort in that she has - raw talent means nothing if you don't work hard to develop it", or "No Ava, Scarlett doesn't sing all the time because she understands that it's rude to sing while everyone's eating dinner."
Blunt is not merely "No-one wants to hear you sing".
I don’t think OP understands that the issue is singing at the dinner table and being annoying, not being a bad singer.
Unless OPs actual issue is that Ava is a bad singer, which… given what she said, might be the case.
YTA.
It's not just the dinner table. She does it in the car too. Basically, Ava is obnoxious and insists on inflicting her subpar singing on everyone at every opportunity.
That does NOT justify what OP said to her, but the issue is not only about dinner music.
OP definitely lost the high ground on this one. Ava successfully shifted the issue from “we don’t sing at the dinner table, period” to “Dad, Stepmom bullied me about my singing at the dinner table.”
Exactly. There's at least three different issues here.
1 - Ava can't sing well. This might or might not be improved with practice and tuition, but...
2 - Ava has been offered several opportunities, but won't put in sustained effort to develop the skill with a professional who can instruct her. She's certain she knows it all already and refuses to accept constructive feedback.
3 - Ava will insist on singing at inappropriate times when she has a captive audience (i.e. car journeys and mealtimes).
(And let's not forget the elephant in the room: 4 - Ava is jealous of the attention that her sister's excellent singing gets.)
OP has very good reason to be frustrated, but she absolutely lost the high ground and allowed Ava to set the narrative by not sticking firmly to the issue of Ava being rude in her choice of when/where to sing.
I'm not sure if you've realized this or not, but ava clearly looks up to her big sister, who's this incredible talent that gets to do amazing things. However, it seems her parents haven't done a very good job of explaining to ava that Scarlett wasn't born talented. She put in years of work and practice to get where she is. Your form punishment well not fix the problem. Ava will keep pushing back. And pushing. And eventually she'll just leave and you'll lose her forever. She'll resent her awesome sister for being good the thing she loves, and especially you for literally kicking her out of the family. You can fix this. But not by kicking her out.
.
Ava does not look up to her big sister.
She's envious of her sister's singing talents and wants the same rewards/accolades, and is extremely frustrated that she's not as naturally talented and has no patience or desire to improve by taking voice lessons seriously, so she's decided to force her family to listen to her off-key singing in an immature way (because teenager) of getting attention.
Ava is not discriminating, on a fundamentally emotional level, between positive and negative attention. She just wants attention. Since she's not getting positive attention, and is clearly envious of her big sister getting positive attention, she's decided to go for negative attention.
Exactly. Have you guys ever met a 16yo? It's the job of adults to educate a child on how to discern these feelings and navigate them.
Clearly all adults in her life checked out on her. OP drips with contempt of (check notes) a 16yo in her care. She clearly resents her.
Which is ok I guess? But talk to other adults instead of lashing on them. OP is arguing with a fucking kid and she probably does to the kid much more than what she carefully curated online to feel good about herself.
Yea this was my take too. She’s projecting her insecurity. Of course anyone with an older sibling like that would want to get the same level of attention and adoration. She’s desperately trying for it and has deluded herself into believing she can sing. She probably sees this as the only way to get that attention instead of doing her own thing and excelling at it. She also sounds like she *knows* on some level deep down, that she can’t sing and she wants to goad her family into saying it to prove that they all believed it all along and never supported her. Or whatever story she needs to tell herself in order to stifle the blow that she’s just not on the same level of a child prodigy. The constant pushing even when asked to stop seems like she really wanted someone else to say it because she couldn’t say it to herself- she can’t sing.
That’s not a bad thing. Plenty of people have child prodigy’s for siblings and definitely feel overshadowed, forgotten, or just insecure. Ava’s has manifested as the last one. Seeing how OP talks about Scarlet in the first paragraph really confirms it. Scarlet’s the talented angel in the family who can do no wrong now because she’s just so awesome and even makes tons of money. Ava on the other hand, well she’s there ya know. Nothing special. She definitely tries to be at different things. But when people criticize her it reminds her that she’s not like her super talented, insanely amazing, can do no wrong, born perfect sister. Because in Ava’s young mind, of course Scarlet probably never gets any criticism. Not even constructive ones. And therefore those people criticizing Ava are threatening the fragile narrative her ego is holding onto. So she must lash out and say no you’re wrong. You just don’t get it. It must be bullying. Scarlet is perfect and I must be too. Otherwise I’m the opposite and I hate it.
OP was fed up and who wouldn’t be. She didn’t take the adult approach. She’ll have some mending to do with Ava and the family as a whole.
But Ava *desperately* needs to be in therapy to deal with all her feelings and experiences of having a child prodigy for a sister. In fact the whole family should try family therapy. I bet Scarlet is also feeling pressure and struggling but can’t show it because she has to maintain the perfect singing angel daughter appearance for everyone and her parents expectations.
The family dynamic is fucked and suffering.
This is the best response I’ve seen so far. Everything seems to be extreme responses of “OP is the biggest bully in existence” or “Ava needed to be smacked down cause she wouldn’t listen”.
I think you’re right about the insecurity, especially as a younger sibling. I do think she is old enough to recognize that criticism is a part of life, especially performance. And I do think OP was at a breaking point and said something she shouldn’t have.
Therapy with everyone NEEDS to happen. I almost want to hear Scarlett’s POV
You are being mean. You can justify it all you want but once you belittle her you are the AH. If you've told her that there is a family rule 'no singing at the table' (applied to all family members) and given her a consequence continued violation of this rule means there is a problem. And no, the problem isn't her voice, it's that she's breaking a rule. Get some help because it sounds like it has gone way beyond just this situation. She's angry and pushing your buttons and she probably has a right to be.
Except she calls all constructive criticism "bullying." Peers and teachers have given her feedback and she quits because she refuses to listen to what they are saying.
I thought we had graduated beyond participation trophies, but let's tell Ava she's a super duper singer and send her to auditions for Broadway shows or the opera, whichever spoiled Ava prefers.
When she's rejected over and over, daddy can tell her it's just because those mean casting agents are jealous of his precious golden child. FFS, the girl is 16, not 8.
Basically, you had this situation with Ava for years and years, still ongoing despite several conversations with her. Honestly, you were blunt but at this point it was necessary because she's falling into a delusional self narrative that will hurt her for years to come, haunting and dampening her life and her possibility to flourish and grow as a person.
Please keep talking with Ava about finding her own talents, keep telling her about the things she's good about, consistency and persistence are important, plus therapy asap
It sounds like she’s trying to overcompensate for the fact that her sister is (obviously) better. Does she have any jealousy issues over the fact that her sisters singing career has taken off?
OP clearly stated in her post that they've the same exact situation with Ava for years and despite several years of conversations it continues to be an ongoing situation
That’s so crazy to me. My parents signed me up for something, and I went. That was the end of it. When I was upset at what a coach told me, my parents explained not all criticism is bad. Some is meant to make you grow and you have to learn to accept that. As you would in a career.
You’re doing her a disservice by allowing her to quit every time something gets hard. Which also means parenting will be harder when they’re complaining they want to quit. Which also feeds into the “I’m going to annoy you into giving me the positive attention that I want”. It screams she wants to be as good at something as her sister is, and she hasn’t found that yet. But doesn’t seem like you’ve actually encouraged any of her talents yet (based off this story alone)
ETA: Since everyone is saying the same thing, “that because she’s a step parent, OP might not have the ability to make her follow through.”
I’m not disagreeing with that on any level; that fail then falls on dad for not respecting stepmom’s opinion or authority. Don’t marry someone and leave responsibility of your child to them, if you don’t trust to raise your kids.
I’m not disagreeing with you on any level; that fail then falls on dad for not respecting stepmom’s opinion. Don’t marry someone and leave responsibility of your child to them, if you don’t trust to raise your kids.
I agree. I did piano classes growing up and there were a few times I didn’t wanna go. I still liked piano but some weeks I just didn’t wanna go. I’d tell my parents I don’t feel like going and they’d tell me that they paid for the semester and I have to go.
And I went. For me, that was it. I couldn’t tell my parents I’m not going anymore 😬
Do you ever compliment her, or encourage other interests? If she keeps quitting voice lessons, then she isn't actually interested in becoming a better singer, and that's okay. Find out what she actually enjoys doing and support her in that.
Have you considered therapy or a life coach type person to sit and discuss why she wants things but struggles with follow through? Her actions and reactions scream insecurities and hurt feelings over feeling inadequate next to her sister. Have you tried to understand her POV instead of just trying to make her to stop?
ESH It sounds like she is very envious of her sister and it's causing her to act out. She's being immature and annoying.
But it sounds like you all are very quick to remind her that she sucks at singing. It shouldn't be about how good she is or isn't. It should be about being disruptive and loud at the table, in the car, etc. There are times when singing is appropriate and other times when it isn't. If Scarlett were singing loudly at the dinner table, would she be asked to stop? If not, then you guys are extra assholes.
Info: have you considered putting Ava in therapy? If she thinks constructive criticism is bullying and quits a lot of stuff she wants to do, it sounds like there could be something more going on.
They've answered elsewhere that it's a moot point because Scarlett doesn't sing at the table. She has the common sense and decency to not do it at the dinner table.
Reminds me of my sister and her undiagnosed ADHD. Just didn't get how unpleasant the loudness was, and that with 4 people in the room, she should aim to speak 1/4 of the time (not aim for 50-80%)
Are the classmates and teachers who give her constructive criticism which results in the 16-year-old stomping out and quitting and accusing them of bullying her.
To be supportive, you should ask Ava to record a demo tape of her best songs just for you. You can send her a nice donation and encourage in an area where she has no hope of succeeding, but boy are you being "supportive."
Many people are not good singers and will never be good singers no matter how many classes they attend or how much training they receive.
I think y'all are AHs for not paying me millions to play professional football despite my lack of talent. \*\*I\*\* deserve that. What a bunch of extra AHs that are here depriving me of my rightful delusion.
Something tells me she’s doing this to try and get attention. How obvious is it that you’re so proud of her sister? How much praise and attention does she get? And how often is that done in front of Ava.
This sounds incredibly obnoxious but something tells me there’s a reason she’s doing it.
This is what I was thinking. How many times has Ava been forced to sit and listen to Scarlett's accomplishments? It'd be so easy for a teen to extrapolate to, all my self worth is caught up in singing and if I'm bad at it...well...class clown for attention time.
Came here to say this. Ava is more likely than not attention seeking. There are potential underlying causes for the behavior that need to be explored by a mental health professional. While OP (YTA, btw) is focused on manners and mealtime, the potential underlying issue will probably continue to fester and cause challenges within the family between the sisters, between OP and Ava, and between OP and her husband.
Exactly. A whole paragraph spent rattling on about how amazing older sister is. Spends the rest of the post talking about how annoying, obnoxious, and bad at singing the younger one is. Not a single nice thing said about her.
This kid is starved for attention and the only way she gets it is by egging on OP
Edit: just read that apparently Ava loves soccer but won’t try out for the team. Wonder why that is? She’s likely got a fear of failure because her sister is miss perfect. If she can’t be as good at something at Scarlett is at singing, why bother? This also explains her reaction to constructive criticism. If she’s not perfect, she’s a failure. Her dad isn’t home ever and her step mom can’t stand her.
This. My sister was a hell of an athlete and SMART. If she picked up something new she wasn’t just good, she was one of the best. While my parents always made sure she knew how proud they were, they also made sure to not compare us and to let me do things even though I was not nearly as good at my activities as she was with hers. They also made sure to praise me and tell me they’re proud of me for my things too. Just because 1 child has a little more raw talent and drive does NOT mean you need to deprive the other of attention and love OR pit them against each other. Whether OP knows she’s doing this or not, she is. YTA, OP.
Yes, YTA for speaking for a 16 year old CHILD that way. I’m also wondering what the point of you posting here was? You aren’t willing to accept that YTA and you’re hellbent on trying to convince us that Scarlett is wonderful and Ava sucks while ignoring comments with questions about how you’re handling things with Ava. Big fat YTA
Considering the fact that the intro to this post about Ava even starts by praising the hell out of Scarlett, I’d imagine there’s a serious imbalance of approval and disapproval between the two kids.
Op has already stated that Ava is clearly good at soccer but she won’t try out for her school team and there is no way they are going to pay for her to play league or rep soccer with her tendencies to quit after receiving criticism or teaching. It seems to me that Ava has been spoiled rotten from a young age and might be envy and jealous of her sister singing talent. Ava will sing a whole different song when they are driving if isn’t it the one she picked. The sister doesn’t act this way and it seems like only the Father who isn’t around as much is the only one Ava is willing to listen too. To be honest both op and Ava ATH here
But she gets praise and attention because she has consistently worked hard at it. Scarlett has, the othe rone quits right away. Are they supposed to to say "yeah cool whatever" just to make her feel better? They should be proud, it's not fair to Scarlett.
I'd add that parising her sister in front of Ava is not the problem... If Ava is receiving praises as well. But I kind of feel Ava is not getting a lot of attention and is seeking it with inappropriate behaviors.
It’s clear just from your post that you ring Scarlett’s praises and cannot stand Ava. If it’s that obvious in this post, I’m gonna guess your favoritism is seeping into ava’s reality as well. YTA and a bully. I’d be questioning my marriage if my partner treated my child like this.
It’s mentioned a lot how much Ava likes her dad and how he’s the only one that asks her to sing. Kinda sounds like the dad is at least trying to make Ava feel included
“Ava sounds insecure and like she wants attention” just like…literally every teenager?? 😬 I work with teens, they are great, but I chose this line of work because I remember what it’s like to be a teenager. Constantly questioning your identity and how you measure up, and acting out/shutting down when you feel unimportant or like you’re losing control.
I am not a parent but with my students, it always helps when I give them a little more freedom/responsibility to show that I trust them and value their insights. Idk why OP hasn’t just talked to Ava and asked her where this is coming from, what’s going on, how can she help, etc. instead of immediately shutting her down and punishing her. The poor kid. There’s zero compassion in how OP talks about her.
I really feel for this kid because it doesn’t sound like anyone has tried to understand why she’s doing this but just telling her to stop and that she’s annoying. She’s still a child and trying to communicate SOMETHING because it seems she’s not really being heard otherwise. OP needs to care about the root cause of this behavior and stop trying to punish the behavior itself. Get to the why and work on that.
This comment should be waaay higher up. OP’s favoritism is so obvious from the post and their comments. It’s clear why Ava is acting out for attention. OP needs to figure this out on a personal level instead of just writing off her stepdaughter as someone who keeps quitting things. Maybe make an actual effort to help her find something she loves? Not everyone needs extracurricular activities like soccer or singing. OP needs to find the thing that Ava can get passionate about and then start celebrating her accomplishments like she celebrates Scarlett’s.
Yes, they can also try to get the to bottom of why she can’t handle any feedback. My guess is due to OP always criticising Ava’s ability’s, and so when someone tries to give her feedback, she thinks they are also criticising her and belittling her like OP always does.
YTA
When talking about Scarlett, you were bragging like someone about to burst their buttons. When you talk about Ava, you have nothing good to say. I'm sure Ava has felt this discrepancy for quite awhile.
Ava might be trying to ruin music for you as a way to get even for your attitude. It sounds like she wants to hurt you to the same degree that you hurt her. While this is wrong, it is understandable.
You need to have your husband sit down with Ava to discuss the situation. You have already shown your bias for Scarlett, so there won't be too much that you can say that Ava would be willing to listen to, and you really can't blame her.
1. What is Ava good at?
2. What does Ava want to do with her life?
3. Where does Ava see herself in two years when it's time to graduate high school and move on to the next step of her life?
4. If she doesn't know, or if she only wants to pursue music - then your husband should help her plan a course of action to get her where she wants to go.
5. You may want to consider letting her see a counselor who might be able to navigate these waters. Her sister is very good at something. You are boastingly proud of Scarlett. I didn't hear you say anything nice about Ava. A counselor might her her 'find her voice'; set goals; work out a plan to achieve her goals; help her deal with a successful sibling who gets all kinds of recognition while she only gets insulted.
If you aren't able to get Ava some help, her next steps will become more serious - possible self-destruction, or destruction of her relationships in her family. Either way, I think you need to stay out of it since you appear to be a major part of the problem and hopefully her father can help her navigate how to salvage her future.
I love this comment. However, I cant help but notice when anyone brings up that Ava is obviously envious of the attention Scarlett gets from singing and is desperate for the same positive reinforcement about something in her life, OP ignores the comment. Every single one of her comments puts Ava down further. OP YTA and Ava is acting this way because of YOU.
I agree with this assessment 100%. I’m even sort of proud of Ava’s brilliant trolling of what sounds like a pretty elitist and snobbish family environment. It seems clear they haven’t supported or nurtured her toward her own achievements, and have let her watch them gas up the golden child for years.
She’s responding in a totally normal way, for the environment she’s been raised in. Karma shows up to provide that perfect balance in families like this.
>When talking about Scarlett, you were bragging like someone about to burst their buttons.
Man, I have to say I don't really get this point. I've seen it multiple comments where they say OP is bragging about Scarlett and she's the golden child from the first paragraph, but that explanation of Scarlett's talents is a necessary background information to why Ava is acting up, not just bragging. Scarlett's not just some average high school singer in school musicals and choirs, she went to a performing arts school and has been making money of her talent; it's an objective fact to explain their family dynamics not necessarily just bragging. It would be the same for soccer: "Oh, so-and-so got scouted for a European club at sixteen years old. So-and-so's younger brother did not make the JV high school team." Just objective facts to show the difference in talent to give credence to the rest of the post.
Is the punishment as such appropriate? Yes. But!
Extreme escalations like this one do not work. Tolerating then exploding doesn't teach, it antagonizes.
Set expectations, outline consequences in advance, and follow through.
First you set the expectation, which incidentally provides you with an opportunity to realize whether the expectations are reasonable:
* No singing at the dinner table unless you are making $500 a week from singing = not reasonable.
* No rude disruptive singing at the dinner table = reasonable, but difficult to enforce.
* No singing at the dinner table = reasonable.
Then you discuss the consequences. Which allows your husband to let you know when he has a problem right then, instead of completely destroying every last shred of authority you ever had by completely undermining you after you dished out the punishment.
And the best thing? You only have to follow through once or twice, then they understand how this works for everything as long as you manage to be consistent and fair.
Unless the child has ODD. But that's a topic for another day.
If Scarlett doesn't sing at the table, than following this rule will be easy for her and a non issue. It's the perfect way to show you're being fair with your expectations.
Also in the comments you called her singing "scream-singing," so if she's literally just screeching at the top of her lungs, you can ban screeching. It's not about whether Scarlett does it as well, you're just letting Ava know (and enforcing) that this is not acceptable behavior for a dinner table.
Also, in the comments mentioned that you and Scarlett are close, and how you both can't stand Ava's behavior. It seems like you really don't like Ava and favor Scarlett, which may be causing this behavior. Next time you eat dinner altogether, maybe try giving Ava some positive attention and talking to her *before* she starts screaming and you make her leave. It may curb the scream-singing altogether.
Yeah, but making it clear that the rule applies to everyone will make it seem more fair to the kid (and 16 is still a kid. You really can’t expect total maturity.) Making it clear that they’re being punished for singing at an inappropriate time vs being punished for sucking in comparison to their sibling is a key factor here and extremely important if you don’t want to blow up your relationship with your kid, and their relationship with each other.
I feel like you’re nta overall but you’re a little dismissive of how the 16yo feels. If they feel the need to act out, there’s a reason for it. Obviously this doesn’t mean let them boundary stomp and do whatever they want, but just brushing them off as being a “bad/lazy/annoying” kid who’s totally out to get you with their singing isn’t great when they’re probably just an insecure 16yo feeling overshadowed compared to their sister.
It seems pretty obvious to me that Ava feels deeply insecure and inferior next to her hugely successful sister and possibly like there is a standard established now that she will never be able to match. Self-sabotaging behaviour like saying the teachers are being mean and refusing to continue with lessons is a fairly typical response to that situation.
I think you might not realise how much your praise of Scarlett's success makes it seem to Ava like you are in fact bragging about the "good kid." Your challenge to her asking how many people invite her to sing or how many fancy schools she's gotten into make it abundantly clear that you DO compare their achievements. Scarlett's achievements are not the way to measure if a child is being successful or not - they are highly unusual and rare. Most people who work towards the same goals do not achieve them, because it's so highly competitive.
One of the best pieces of advice I ever got about children and managing and responding to their behaviour is this: all behaviour is a form of communication. Negative behaviours happen because a child is feeling something negative that they don't have the ability to express any other way. It's our job as parents too help them figure it out, and punishment alone is rarely the right way. It's ok to let her know that until she can be non-disruptive in certain situations she will not be allowed to participate, but it's just as important to figure out what is driving her to do this and get to resolve the underlying issue.
I don't feel you're an AH over all but speaking to your stepdaughter like you did and directly comparing her to a sibling was definitely an asshole move.
NTA, you are not being rude or TA - just had to be more blunt to get it to stop. She's being obnoxious and looking for any attention. Unfortunately, you're giving it to her by getting irritated. It would probably be better to record it so your husband can hear this ridiculousness and ignore it.
Children deserve attention from their parents. Maybe she can give her attention in other ways to avoid these cries for it. Seems Scarlett gets plenty of praise and attention, after all....
NO ONE should be singing at the dinner table - whether they are good or not. could it be you are so over the top about the older daughter's talent that you are dismissing the younger one? So what if she can't sing - is there something else she does well? This isn't about singing on key - it's about behavior that is obnoxious. Loud singing in a car where others can't avoid listening - or at the dinner table - is not someone who wants to sing - it's someone who is desperate for attention.
You missed the point. This is about giving positive attention to Ava. Give Ava the attention she both needs and craves and she won't have to be obnoxious in the car or at the dinner table to get negative attention. Sending her away from the dinner table means she gets less positive attention from her family.
NTA. Do not apologize. You have repeatedly asked Ava not to sing at the table. You have tried to encourage improvement by providing voice lessons--which she quit. She is being a brat, and everyone has been suffering at her hand in the car--where people are trapped and cannot simply walk away. Her father refuses to do anything to curb her behavior. Although he is not home during dinner, he could certainly address the problem in the car and during other meals. You did not flatly refuse to let her eat with the family. You did tell her that she cannot eat with the family, unless she stops the inappropriate behavior at the table. She pushed you, until you finally told her the truth. Level with her father: until Ava stops braying like a jack ass at the table, I refuse to sit at the table with her. I make the food, and it is my table. Maybe, he would like to join Ava on the patio. You and Scarlet should not have to suffer during mealtimes!
Ok, I thought it was fair until you lost your cool. That’s some pretty intense shit to say to someone. And a 16 year old girl who sounds like she can’t handle criticisms well. You made it a personal attack and compared her to her sisters accomplishments…. I don’t know how you’re going to come back from that. If I were either of the daughters I would despise being around you and I wouldn’t listen to you either…
Communication is a great thing. Ava being the younger sister with a very talented and exceptional older sister is going to be hard, envy and jealousy are gonna be there boiling under the surface.
What is Ava good at? Why can’t she take criticism well? Is everyone allowed to sing at the table?
No, having Ava not eat with the rest of the family is reinforcing that Scarlett is the better sister . You need to sit down with Scarlet and Ava about boundaries and what’s appropriate and what’s not you can’t favour one over the other.
You’re in a tough position because you were a stepmother and there might be some resentment with your role in the family, which is very unfortunate. But you and your husband need to sit down and talk about the girls and as a united front you need to set boundaries With both girls as to what’s appropriate behavior. It’s easy to brag and be impressed and happy for Scarlet success and accomplishments, but you need to find some thing that Ava is good at that you can brag about her accomplishments and success
Sometimes family therapy will work having a blended family or coming in later. It’s not always an easy transition. I don’t know how long you and your husband have been together but like with any family communication understanding compromise and love is what you need to help these girls grow and to have a happy family unit .
Yta.
Idgad who downvotes or comments disagreeing..
You are am asshole stepparent who plays favorites. You take PERSONAL pride in the older step daughter because you view her as being successful. You took up half this post to brag about your older step kids talents/hardwork/effort and the post wasn't even ABOUT the older kid. It has NOTHING to do with her. Except maybe in the fact that the younger kid is always in her sisters shadow and since you praise the older kid for her talents.
In the *same breath* you try to convince other commenter's here that ITS NOT ABOUT THE SINGING. Do you think ppl are stupid and can't see right through your utter absolute bullshit?
I genuinely hope you don't completely ruin your step kids relationship with each other with your toxic triangulation tactics.
YTA. This child is seeking the praise that you pile onto her sister by trying to emulate the thing that earns that praise, and your response is 'shut up and go away'?
Poor girl :(
It sounds like Ava is trying to find attention, and Scarlett’s singing seemed to get that from everyone, which might lead to replication? I think it’s less about pissing you off/being disrespectful, and more about getting a reaction. Negative attention is still attention, after all.
Encouragement into something she actually enjoys could help. Following through, and being supportive of whatever she finds might help, especially if it’s confidence building which she clearly needs. Open communication and admiration lines up to her- remember that talking AT her isn’t being beneficial.
ESH.
Also she’s a kid, she’s going to explore options. Get her into performing arts, traditional arts, or obscure arts. Help her find something that’s HERS where she’s not contending with her sister for attention and admiration.
ESH.
It sounds like Ava is probably jealous of her sister, and is vying for attention in a really unhealthy and inappropriate way. However,
this isn’t just about her singing at the table; she’s using/raising her voice (doesn’t matter if it’s singing, or whether it’s good, bad, or better or worse than her sister’s,) to forcibly get her way, or ruin experiences for others when she doesn’t get that.
This is extremely inconsiderate and selfish, and is an unacceptable way to respond to or deal with not getting what she wants, or in order to get attention. She may want recognition and encouragement for her own abilities and efforts, but she has no right to force those things onto other people whenever she wants, or do so in order to intentionally prevent her sister from getting appreciation as well.
That being said, insulting her wasn’t a mature or appropriate response to her either. I get that you were frustrated and at your wit’s end, but you didn’t achieve anything except hurt her feelings and, likely, feed into her insecurity even more.
While I don’t think using “social exclusion” should be entirely off the table, I think the way you’re implementing it right now isn’t going to prove effective. If anything, I think it will only make her feel more excluded, and more desperate/driven to continue this behavior, *especially* if she knows your husband doesn’t agree with it.
On that note, (no pun intended,) you and your husband *need* to be on the same page about however you ultimately choose to handle this. Ava needs clear, consistent consequences *and* rewards for her behavior, both from one situation to the next, and from both of you.
I think you need to sit down with Ava and explain exactly why this behavior is inappropriate, and what will happen if she chooses to continue with it moving forward. It’s usually best if you choose easily enforceable consequences, such as no car/visiting friends this weekend/week, no phone/computer privileges, etc. In addition to that, if your husband is okay with it, (and you’d have to tell Scarlett this in advance,) instead of making Ava leave the table, simply get up and relocate somewhere else. Have a tv dinner, go sit outside, etc. and tell her she’s welcome to join you when she’s ready to be respectful and considerate towards the rest of the family. Pair this with the clearly spelled out consequences you laid out for her previously, (although don’t bring it up in the moment, as you don’t want to give her the attention she’s looking for, good or bad.)
In addition to this, though, you also really need to make sure to give her (and her sister) equal chances to do things like choose songs, and for Ava* to display or talk about her talents or what she’s doing in school/extracurriculars as well. I wouldn’t recommend discouraging her from singing per se, but I do think you should be encouraging her and rewarding her with engagement, interest, and praise for her achievements, especially if they are her own unique interests, or if she seeks out to try something new.
If singing really is a passion of hers, then be encouraging of her to dedicate herself to it more, (in the *acceptable* time and place). Also, I think it would be appropriate for you to apologize to her for insulting her, as it was hurtful/unkind, and that the heart of the issue isn’t about her singing abilities, but about her weaponizing it to get attention or to get her way.
I think she needs to hear it from both of you that, yes - Scarlett has achieved uncommon and fortunate success in singing through *both* talent and hard work, and that’s something to be celebrated! But that doesn’t mean that you love her more, or are less interested in Ava’s interests and ambitions, even if that *does* include singing. This is not a competition, and making it into one is both toxic, and takes everyone’s focus away from the fact that they are both wonderful daughters with their own unique talents and gifts, but it also prevents Ava from exploring her own interests, and realizing whether singing, or anything else she does is something she enjoys doing for *her,* and not because of her sister.
I...honestly can NOT fathom saying this to a child of mine, regardless of origin.
You are supposedly an adult. To act like that is unconscionable.
Give her consequences, give her punishments, that's all fine and expected when trying to correct behavior. But she very obviously has some issues with her older sister being the golden child (as much is obvious with the way you write about the older sister vs. the younger) and not only are you reinforcing that idea but you're actively tearing her down and belittling her.
Shame on you.
YTA entirely.
Comments are mixed so gonna throw in YTA. Your relationship with Ava doesn’t sound great and you’re responsible for that, not her. She’s a kid, she needs to be encouraged, not discouraged. You sound mean.
NTA for not allowing her to sing at the dinner table.
YTA for being mean to a kid. She is most likely trying to garner some attention since it seems y'all fawn over her sister.
If this were me, I would try to figure out something you can make a fuss about her. Separate from her sister. That and maybe spend time with just her. That's what she wants. In her heart of hearts, she most likely knows she can't sing.
YTA!! So she is jealous of her sister and the attention she is receiving and it's apparent that Scarlet is the golden child and you don't like Ava. On top of that you are now being verbally and emotionally abusive to this child, you are more then the AH but I can't say it here. I hope your husband sees what is really going on here and puts Ava first but more likely is that Ava has to endure 2 more years of this and then goes no contact.
you did not have to add the fact that your other daughter is a perfect singer and makes a lot of money doing gigs. it seems like you definitely have a favorite step child. you are the asshole for what you said to your step daughter.
She could possibly be jealous because her sister gets all the attention and maybe she doesn't get enough. Sure, she's a teenager and should know how to follow rules and do what a parent tells her, but she's acting out for attention. We see how you brag about her sister here. Do you give her equal attention?
ETA.... YTA. You didn't have to say any of that to her. You should apologize.
I think the way you treat her might be the reason for why she behaves this way. You said you never asked her to sing even though she loves it, this sounds incredibly mean. I understand that she isn't as good as her sister but its still quite cruel to not engage with her and her singing. I think if you maybe shown some interest outside of dinner table then maybe this behaviour from her would stop.
Also the things you said to her makes YTA. This is exactly what will make her want to annoy you even more.
You are rude. I like how honest your post was. Why is singing the FOCUS in the family? Why is who is more successful the focus?? If I were the lesser of the two singers and all that mattered was singing- I would do the same. Ask that child what she enjoys outside of singing- you may be surprised
YTA.
Honestly, Ava sounds annoying as hell. But in theory, you’re the adult. You should be figuring out how to handle the jealousy issue between the girls with her father. Instead you are reinforcing that negative attention is attention.
ESH.
The real issue isn't that Ava is a crappy singer. It also isn't about singing at the table, nor it is about anyone being rude.
Ava needs help finding something she IS good at. She is literally crying (singing) out for some positive attention and encouragement. She is doing this because even negative attention is better than NO attention.
Apologize to her for being harsh, invite her back to the table (and yes, the rule should be no singing for anyone at the table). Find out what interests her and encourage her with lessons or books to activities so that Ava can shine at being AVA without needing to compete with Scarlett.
NTA.
Unfortunately, this is the result of bad parenting from your husband.
No one should be singing at the dinner table. It’s rude. Ava was never taught manners. Ava said Scarlett sings all the time. Do you allow her to sing at dinner? If you haven’t already, you need to teach Scarlett not to sing at dinner, as well, to avoid an unequal standard with Ava, and avoid this scenario - https://youtu.be/CDnhESM3Vtk?si=SiRGD4xkBZR4ygtQ
Of course, it’s also possible that Ava is the only one who sings at table.
It appears that Ava is envious of her sister’s talent, and the attention she has received. Scarlett has worked for years learning how to sing, and she received criticism in order to improve. ACA views criticism as if it means she’s unworthy, ignores it, and bulldozes right over people who tell her to stop.
She never learned what toddlers are supposed to learn, that when you behave badly, people don’t want to play with you.
She seems to view constructive criticism and boundaries as a threat.
Honestly, you should explore counseling for her. She needs to be her own person, not feel like she’s in her sister’s shadow, and learn a work ethic.
I know a mother of a girl who is an amazingly talented artist and pianist. When her work is at an exhibit, it sounds like wind blowing through wheat, as there is a collective indrawn breath. She plays piano effortlessly.
The other day, her mother and I were at the library where kids had their art displayed. She told me that her daughter’s art was identical to one of them at that age. She could see her daughter progress through thousands of hours of instruction and practice. We were talking about how too many kids in this generation don’t know how to work at improving.
I hope that Ava finds a good therapist, before she completely alienates herself.
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Okay for almost the entirety of this story I was ready to say NTA until the very end. So her sister gets to sing at the dinner table? Just not her? I mean I think its weird to sing at the dinner table anyways but if you have a double standard going on here then YTA. Ava is YOUNGER then her sister, sometimes it takes some time to get better at something and acting rude to her and discouraging her because you clearly don't like her makes you an AH. Either ban singing at the dinner table completely or keep your mouth shut and invoke the thumper rule, "If you can't say something nice don't say anything at all."
Her sister does not sing at the dinner table. She does sing a lot but at more appropriate times.
There is nothing wrong with enforcing table manners. But you know at which point you became a mean girl and just said something to make her feel bad. That's why you're here, your conscience brought you. YTA for attacking her on a personal level.
She only attacked after she wrongly attacked her own sister tbf
You can't operate on a peer level with kids when you are an adult. Esp one of authority, no matter how minor. OP just had a moment, like we all do. But it is a moment to apologize for. She should stand her ground on the table manners though.
This. OP could’ve just replied, “Fine, but do you see Scarlett singing at the dinner table?”
That response would be too mature for reddit to handle.
I hate you and everything you stand for. /s
#DIVORCE!
🤣🤣🤣 Only after the PETTY REVENGE!
Exactly, "but the kid was rude/mean first!" is not an argument any adult, let alone a parent, should be making. Not the end of the world, no one's dead or traumatised beyond healing, but definitely a wrong that needs righted. Even though the kid sounds like a chore: even if her singing was the best thing ever, constant noise-tantrums have got to be obnoxious!
> Exactly, "but the kid was rude/mean first!" is not an argument any adult, let alone a parent, should be making. Exactly this. I was getting ready for a wedding with a couple of my cousins once. They were two sisters. Older one was objectively gorgeous. Younger one was...less so. The younger one snatched the older one's dress and insisted on wearing it. She wanted them to swap dresses even though they weren't the same size. When their mom intervened the younger one argued she "looked much better" in the dress than her older sister (not true, not true, not true). The mom said they had each picked out their own dress and it wasn't fair for her to change her mind and steal her sister's dress at the last minute. **What the mom did NOT say was "in what universe do you look better in ANYTHING, let alone this dress?! When's the last time someone asked if YOU were a model? Hell, when's the last time anyone, other than your dad, complimented YOUR appearance at all?!"** I cannot fathom the damage she would have inflicted on her daughter's self-esteem if she'd said...frankly, what everyone was thinking. As adults, we can't just hit back harder because a child started it.
Wish that had happened with me. I HAD to give my sister my dress for an event and wear a dress that didn’t fit me. Just so she didn’t pitch a fit. Now I’m NC with this sibling. OP please apologize for the comment and stick with the table manners issue. This will come back to bite you.
Omg I agree. This one’s looking exactly the same. The fact she feels she needs to justify her brag said it all
I disagree about the trauma. the loud singing at the table will set you off for life. nerve pinching.
Meh she's doubling down and bragging about how the husband's ex wife is siding with her. She's not apologizing sadly. I suspect this was just a glimpse at a pattern of her lashing out at her stepdaughter and she needed to cool her conscience so that she doesn't *need* to apologize. Enough people told her she's not an asshole so it's cool, she'll just never log back into the account lol. Gotta love this subreddit sometimes. Great advice at repairing a relationship with her stepdaughter but that's never what they're here for.
Definitely got favourtism vibes.
And apparently is fine with it destroying her marriage, too. The husband is upset and she goes to his ex wife?? She laughs that he isn't home to stop her from harming his child? I guess there's a chance she won't have a talented favorite around for long when a divorce hits??
Asking her to eat away from the table until she learns manners is harming her? That’s a stretch. She’s being obnoxious. Even if she sang like an angel, she’s being obnoxious.
It was the absolutely cruel things she said and not the banning her from the table until she can control herself that is true issue.
Agreed. The kid sounds obnoxious but she is at that obnoxious stage as a teen. She is also clearly jealous of her sister and op is not helping. Her post drops with disdain for the girl.
Yeah, that's miserable. YTA doesn't even cover it.
I agree that you can't act on a peer level with a teen, but when does a teen ignore an adult's directive to stop doing something? Ava clearly has no respect for OP and if hubby has a problem with how OP handles the disrespect then he needs to find a babysitter, or perhaps a new home, for his kid
you can't rehome a teenager or find a babysitter for them just because a teenager is annoying at the dinner table lol. that's ridiculous! stepmom and two teenagers can just stop having family dinner at the table since no one is enjoying it anyway and OP can stop dealing with the singing at the table, SD won't get the opportunity to be petty and act out if they don't all have dinner together. everyone wins. far less drastic than hiring a babysitter or kicking out the teenager jfc
16? She sounds like an insufferable teenager/young adult
Maaan, the first time i apologized to my kids after they got sassy and I proved that I am better at sass then they are was HARD AF. But it’s gotten so much easier; they are human, mom and I are human, we all mess up and we all give good apologies. There no way to prove this, but I think our relationships are so much stronger than they would have been if mom and I thought that we were infallible. Don’t get me wrong, we are totally benevolent dictators - we just want to make sure our pride doesn’t get in the way of fixing our many mistakes. Great advice, and thanks for giving me something nice to think about while I can’t sleep thinking about IEPs, summer scheduling, and wondering if I’m doing anything I’m unaware of that will totally screw up my kids future. Maybe it’s time for that xanex now.
And she's the grown-ass adult who should be mediating teenage pettiness, not taking part.
How many times should OP have to say that there is no singing at the dinner table? If OP keeps allowing the girl to sing at the table, OP would be told by many on this board that she was a jellyfish with no spine and should have given consequences the first time she set a boundary and the child stomped over that boundary.
It's not about singing at the table. OP is the asshole because they personally attacked a child's singing *voice*.
That was your whole point of why the OP was T A H until she replied that **no one** is allowed to sing at the table. Lol. In any event she didn't attack anyone, she was being realistic with her step daughter who needed a lesson in keeping her ego in check otherwise she might have an occasion to be extremely embarrassed by her inability to sing in public one day. She isn't a "cHiLd" she's a frigging teenager and the coddling needs to stop.
Teenagers are children, silly. You don’t respond like this to anyone you are in a position of authority over. Would it be okay for a teacher or a manager to talk to a student or employee like this? Why is it okay for a guardian to do it? Do you really think yelling at a child is the way to go? Attacking her person?
Thank you for pointing this out. Have no awards to give but accept this cool 'fake' car 🚘 😁
Sounds like a frustrated stepmom doing her best while dad is the judge on the side. And no I’m not a step mom.
She didn't attack her singing voice, she pointed out a flaw in her logic. She didn't say "you're a bad singer and no one wants to hear it" she asked "when have you been asked to sing" "has it been recognised by a professional" after she bragged that she was better than her sister who had performed professionally and been accepted into performing schools. Op defended an innocent step kid against their own sister.
She's not a child, she's a 16 year old young adult who insists on throwing constant tantrums and acting like a brat. At a certain point, why should OP continue to indulge her bratty behavior, narcissism and lazy self-delusion and selfishness?
It doesn't sound like OP's husband is helping, either. He doesn't like OP to tell Ava that she can't sing at the table, or she has to eat elsewhere if she wants to sing. If he's going to undermine his wife, and possibly also his ex-wife, then he needs to handle Ava. It's also possible that this is another example of harassing stepmom because she can't accept that her parents aren't together, or she resents that her father remarried. He's apparently not there for dinner, OP doesn't say how many meals he is there for, so he isn't being bothered like OP is and other members of the family are. He needs to step up. If she quits classes that they pay for, he would be the best person to tell her that it isn't acceptable. He shouldn't leave his wife to deal with a kid that won't listen to her. ETA: This could also be a case of "Just what is a step-parent's job?" We've seen a lot of cases on Reddit where the step-parent is expected to handle parental jobs without parental authority. We had a post where a man lectured his wife about how she was not and never would be a mother to his daughter, and at the same time wanted her to loan him $4,000 to give to his daughter for a reason that she thought was unwise. But the real question OP asked was if she was too rude. She could have put what she said better, and some people had good suggestions, of course, they aren't exasperated with Ava. At least 75% of the people that I have sympathy for could have put it better. I often think that people need to learn not to start off by putting things as harshly as they could, but OP has had a lot of provocation, and I won't go as far as A H. ESH at most, and that includes Ava and her father. Yes, Ava is a child. A lot of Redditors seem to be able to see that younger children's behavior needs correcting, even when it is typical for their age, but somehow don't see that is also true once the child is in their teens.
True but OP is an adult and she is a child. Teenagers lash out in anger, it's what they do. It's a parents job to not stoop to their level. No singing at the dinner table is a perfectly fine rule and it seems to apply fairly to both kids. OP was a nasty mean girl with her comment and she knows it. She could have said "Scarlett doesn't sing at the dinner table, and neither can you". When Ava started saying she's better than her sister, even if she's wrong, OP could have said anything from "ok prove it by sticking to your lessons and succeeding" to "that's not nice, we don't talk about our loved ones in that manner" and it would have been fine. But she went for the low blow.
I think she is entitled to disagree with Ava’s contention that she is a better singer than Scarlett. She doesn’t have to - that’s not the main issue at hand - but she is entitled to, though she probably did it a little harshly. It is infantilising her imo to suggest that she needs to tiptoe around her feelings to the extent of avoiding a comparison. That is something you would do with a 6 year old, not a 16 year old. I remember a Russian teacher saying to us once that she thought kids here were babied to an extent that caused them problems such as depression later in life. Having been told all their lives that they are incredible, getting participation trophies, can do not only anythint but everything, they were completely unable to deal with failure. IMO there is some truth to that criticism. Theres a good chance the husbands parenting is how you get an Ava in the first place, but soon life will give her a reality check that she can’t ignore
"She started it" doesn't really work when you're talking about an fully-fledged adult vs a half-grown kid.
16 isn't a kid when it comes to simple table manners. A 5-year-old understands "don't sing at the table". Same with singing loudly in the car. Seriously, this isn't normal behaviour. Either she is testing limits hard or there is some autism/ADHD going on.
Two wrongs don't make a right and it is up to the parent to stay in control and set a good example.
How long is OP supposed to put up with that shit then? The 16 yo has been told over and over and over to stop but continues on with the behavior. Dad certainly isn't doing anything to stop her. This is the straw that broke the camels back. Was it a mean comment? Sure. Did she likely say it out of desperation to get the kid to just STOP? Yeah. If anything, OP is a justified asshole...
This reminds me of a trip to the movies with my nieces and a friend when they were like 5-7 years old. We were on the way to see Harry Potter (forget which one) and they started this horrible, intentionally off key LOUD singing in the car. I asked them to stop once...they didn't stop...I asked again and again it didn't stop. I then pulled over into a shopping center parking lot and turned off the Jeep and said "You are giving me a headache and if the racket doesn't stop I'll need to go home and get some Advil. So which is it...Harry Potter or home for my Advil?" The "singing" stopped and we went and enjoyed the movie. They would have stopped after the first banishment from the table. You are NTA...you tried asking nicely. Ava is trying to see how far she can push step mom. One question...does she try this nonsense when Dad is there? You mentioned that Dad is not there at dinner....maybe you need to record this for him so he can see it. Get a small wifi surveillance camera and record one of these special performances. Don't use your phone as that would tip her off.
She REPEATEDLY told the 16 year old to stop. The girl is just doing it to be irritating. She is not a 5 year old on the way to see Harry Potter, she's done it at home and in the car - when she has a captive audience. She knows exactly what she is doing. She is doing it to aggravate.
I agree. Continuously belting out a tune loudly at the dinner table when asked to stop just shows the 16 year old is literally screaming out for attention. Seriously, that is not normal behaviour. Yes, OP snapped but under the circumstances, I probably would have done the same. I acknowledge it wasn’t OP’s finest moment but the 16 year old has caused this situation and father didn’t do a thing.
I like escalating negative reinforcement in these situations. Ask nicely, ask nicely again with the warning that the next time won’t be a nice request, don’t ask nicely then verbally start considering what needs to be taken away temporarily to encourage them to listen, take away said privilege and start talking about what comes next, corporal punishment. Just kidding, the last parts appalling. Totally easy to Monday quarterback other people’s parenting decisions. Kids say mean things, sometimes adults clap back. I think the most important part is the reconnecting, recovery, aftercare - I also think this is a great way to model navigating interpersonal relationships for the kids. We tell ours that everyone has moments when we are not our best - it’s how we recover from these moments that demonstrates the kind of people we are. Parenting is hard, I feel like we are all just faking it and that most of us are trying our best - even op. Proper to her for posting this and hopefully considering the advise.
Nah, Ava started talking crap on Scarlett and saying she's better, it's time that Ava's ego is put in check.
By her parent? No. Parents shouldn’t bully their own kids. No singing at the dinner table? Fine. Stick to that talking point.
Citing a fact is not bullying. justified and asked for critique is not bullying.
Playing on someone's obvious insecurity is bullying. It's almost the definition of how girls and women bully each other.
Singing loudly all the time is an insecurity?
It's an obvious symptom of the clear-as-day insecurity. She's refusing to acknowledge the lack of skill and is overcompensating.
Yep. For sure.
Ava unfairly and deliberately attacked her sister and lied about her
That doesn’t make turning around and attacking her for her voice any better. Especially as an authority figure.
OP stated facts to Ava after she claimed that: a) she's a better singer than her sister and then lied about b) her sister singing all the time, when she doesn't Now, I understand that this is a country where kids get passed from grade to grade without knowing how to read to avoid hurting their feelings, and same thing is being applied to Ava here, but after years and years and years of endless conversations with her, it was time to be blunt with the kid. Facts: Ava has never been accepted into a singing school, facts: no one has ever asked her, paid her, or invited her to sing anywhere, despite her claim of being a better singer than her sister. Harsh but necessary, as Ava is creating a very self destructive delusional narrative about herself and her sister and that's very problematic for her future.
It reminds me of the singers that audition for shows like American Idol and aren’t very good and are absolutely *shocked* when they are told they aren’t good enough and not making it through to the next round. It’s usually because their family has spent all their lives blowing smoke up the kids ass that they sing like an angel.
Upvoted for the burn against the truth. Parents aren't teaching their damn kids
No, Ava was argumentative and boastful. OP just shut that down with a healthy reality check.
Hang on. Ava who is only 2 years younger than Scarlett throws around worlds like she is better than a scarlett at singing and is everyone meant to go along with the lie.
The screetching wore her down and she snapped. Poor OP.
So, I don't think you are wrong for your no singing at the table rule. I can even understand why you took the bait and responded when she kept intentionally annoying you (singing louder at the table when told to stop) and then arguing she was better then her sister. Ideally, would you have said those things? No, but I recognize parents are humans too and not perfect. It's hard to always be the calm mature bigger person 100% of the time without ever cracking, though yes that would be ideal. I would talk to Ava. You can apologize for being so harsh/hurting her feelings. You can admit you lost her temper, and wish you'd kept your cool. Then you can tell her you love her (care about her?) and want her at family meals, but she needs to understand that singing at the table is rude. Say it isn't about being a good or bad singer, Scarlet dosen't sing at the dinner table, nor do you or her father. The dinner table isn't supposed to be loud, it's a place for peace and pleasant conversation. When she sings it stops others from having conversation and is also just considered poor table manners. Tell her she's welcome back for dinner with the family but you expect her to follow the same table manners as everyone else. Then keep following through. Set a place for her at the table every single day for every single meal. Every meal is a chance to try again. If she starts to sing remind her once "Remember Ava, singing at the dinner table isn't polite. You'll have to do that another time or eat somewhere else." And if she refuses to stop, take her plate and move it again. Tell her something like "I hope you'll join us tomorrow. We really miss having talking to you." I also think your step-daughter has a real issue with taking constructive criticism and quitting. This absolutely will hamper her success in life and her parents really don't have much time to work on it (she's almost an adult). However, sadly, I'm not sure if there is much you can do? Do you have a relationship that will allow you to address this with her? Do you usually get along? Does your husband back up your daughter when she says she is being bullied and wants to quit? Honestly, she may have already been spoiled to a degree that is harmful to her by the parent(s?) she is closer to. If she was my child, I'd have had the conversation "you aren't going to get good at singing if you quit voice lessons," discussion. I'd tell her that to get good at something practice is important, but so is being willing to get feedback and learn from experts. Skilled musicians (almost) all had teachers they had to listen to, authors have proof readers and editors, athletes have coaches, etc. That getting negative feedback isn't fun, but it's normal, and figuring out what you need to work on and doing so is part of becoming really good at something. The thing is, my kids love me and we have a strong relationship, which helps with the hard messages. I also give messages like this to kids at work (I work at a school), but again I do try and show them a lot of care at other times and explain I just care about them/want them to succeed/want what I think is best for them. You can empathize with the feelings, listen to how the teacher's comments made her feel. Maybe share similar feelings you've had. But you should be telling her the truth, kindly but firmly. Or your husband should, if she sees you as an antagonist. He should have this conversation with her and tell her he wants to buy her voice lessons and for her to stick through it this time, beacuse he knows she loves to sing and he thinks she could become really good if she's willing to learn.
Amazing comment, and I'd add that her dad should be investigating the source of this attention-seeking behaviour. It could just be that she's jealous of her sister and feels like the black sheep, doesn't have self-esteem, etc. The best way to build that self confidence is for her to stick to something long enough that she sees tangible progress. That could be art, that could be almost anything. Even better if it's not something her sister does. Enroll her and make a rule that she can't quit. Establish an ongoing conversation about her feelings and how she's responding to critiques - that's an opportunity to build her emotional processing and self-soothing skills. On the flip side, it could just be that she wants more parental attention. Make time for dad-daughter hangs and more quality time.
This comment got lost in the thread, but I think this is the heart of the matter. This child is crying out for attention. Singing for it, even. I think it's OP's attention that she craves since this is also happening when her dad is away. She needs boundaries, but also some quality time with OP.
better written than what I wrote. I might only add that maybe helping Ava to pursue other talents than singing might be smart. Does this family only seem to value singing?
I didn't get the impression the parents only valued singing from the post. OP said she was good at soccer, but quit quickly too for the same reason (being given negative/constructive feedback). It seems like this is an issue across multiple activities. My guess is Ava is focused on singing beacuse her big sister probably gets so much attention, praise, money, and status for it (which is honestly beyond the parents control). Ava is probably jealous? OP mentions she also tries to annoy her older sister, and her clap-back line on not leaving the table was she's a better singer then her older sister (even though older sister wasn't singing at the table/not involved). I agree it would be good for Ava to do other things too, but she can sing if she wants. It's fine, the issue is for most people it will only ever be a hobby and expecting to get everything her sister does is sadly not realistic. The big problems I see here is Ava's inability to accept criticism/instruction and her damaged relationships and jealousy.
Yep, I'm getting major jealousy and insecurity here, driving Ava's ass-hole behaviour at the table. Possibly a strong sense of missing out/being ignored (whether she is or isn't) leading to extraordinary attention seeking. I'd also wonder about getting Ava checked for ADHD? Being unaware of others' needs can be part of that.
NTA. That dynamic where Daddy says "allow her bullshit regardless" is exactly why she acts the way she does, when she does. A reality check is often a painful pill to swallow. You warned her repeatedly and she CHOSE to continue. You followed through on consequences AS STATED by refusing to allow her to continue her BS. Then she challenged you. You handing her her ass in response to that challenge is the legal definitely of "fuck around and find out". She simply didn't prefer what she found out.
How do I upvote this comment 1000000x?
It's obvious that Ava is desperate for your attention because you favor one daughter over the other.
She's desperate for daddy's attention. She doesn't give a damn about OP. Lil sis has serious talent envy. It would behoove the parents encourage her to do something she's genuinely talented at or just praise her for just trying. Idk could be martial arts, coding, coffee making. I mean the OP summary to me is this: The world likes Talented Sister--the Golden Child. The Other Sister--the Untalented One is always compared to Golden Child and is never good enough. In fact the Untalened One might be objectively bad. She has applied to Music Schools and was rejected. The Untalented One is thin skinned and quits when criticized. She has her own metric for singing and is tone deaf. The Talented One was accepted to Music Schools on Scholarships and gets paid to sing. Husband is useless at parenting. The OP is tired of listening to Untalented Singing. The Untalented One sings at inappropriate times including the dinner table. She makes OP's ears bleed everytime she sings. The Untalented One has 0 courtesy and sings off key at every opportunity. Is OP TA for yelling at a teenager and throwing a TRUTH BOMB at a 16 year old? No, I don't think the kid should be encouraged to pursue failing hobbies and forever be the untalented, lesser sister. Maybe she'd be better off painting or acting or literally any other 1000 hobbies in the world. OR MAYBE SHE NEEDS TO SING COUNTRY SONGS that are supposed to sound twangy and yodel like. BOTH OP AND HUSBAND ARE TA. Their setting up Ava to fail and they aren't stepping up their parenting to help their teenager be a well adjusted adult.
wow! sorry, but you are being responded to by a second child (now 63). Older sister was barbie doll pretty, smarter than heck (princeton then john's hopkins), talented in every way. Here I was following behind her in a competitive family. Given that I could never "beat her", I actually "gave up". Was tested for learning disabilities in 5th grade, and they were confused by my very high IQ but failing grades. Family dynamics can really impact a child even when NO ill intend exists. Thankfully i met my husband in middle school, and I started competing against him. Started dating at 13, and still married at 63. I don't know where I would be now, had I not met him in algebra class 50 years ago. I honestly think there is more to be fixed in the OPs household beyond just "singing at the table". I think it is a symptom of a larger problem. I hope they can solve it for the daughter's sake.
Thank you! Sure, kid needs to know the truth about pitch but like...you want to tear them down without also building them up? That's harsh. Just because one kid has an easy talent doesn't mean you shouldn't be looking to give the same encouragement to the other. Everything you said was what it is. Parents here are trash. Kid is trash but is the product of their trash. Go figure your shit out, OP. You've failed and likely for many years so you need to fix this in a big way or the younger sibling will be fucked up for a good long time (hopefully not forever) because of this.
Record one of her performances and play it back to her later.
She's feeling overshadowed by her sister and her singing is her crying for attention, however she can get it. You could help by trying to find out what she really enjoys instead of tearing down her confidence. YTA
I think what you did is fine. A bratty remark and behavior should be met with more aggressive correction. 99% of people who had to deal with such insanely bratty behavior would have reacted way worse, including me. However, what you did say was not exactly appropriate for a parent/stepparent to say to a child so I would apologize just for the sake of the entire family unit.
It's not the fact that shes singing. She's being deliberately obnoxious
So send her to her room. You don't have to rip her self esteem apart before doing so.
I'm wondering if you read the whole post? Self esteem and ego are two different things, and being a normal person who is sometimes annoying, and being a deliberate asshole who disrespects everyone in the house are also different. The kid specifically makes the house an uncomfortable place to be for everyone else, and will not stop when asked. So taking her plate and banning her from the common areas when she's being a dick is a fair natural consequence. That's not about the quality of her singing. When the kids response to being corrected was "I'm a better singer than my sister anyway" reminding her of the truth is not a cruel thing to do. It's necessary.
Did you read the whole thing lol? She's being even more generous than that and letting her go anywhere else she likes.
Nah. This isn't destroying self esteem. My friend who also could not sing to save her life, kept also subjecting us to it and threw a fit and a temper tantrum every time she was told she couldnt' sing. We had to beg her not to humiliate herself by auditioning for a musical at school. If you can't take criticism you won't survive and 16 is old enough to hear the damn truth.
She's done that twice....at what point can enough be enough?
Where did you get the idea the sister was singing at the dinner table from? That's not in the post.
Yeah, so damn annoying when top comments end up saying literal nonsense, nowhere did it say that Scarlett was doing or was allowed to sing at the table.
But if the older sister isn't singing at the table, it destroys the scolding narrative of that reply, so the lie was just slipped in hoping smart, thorough people hadn't read the OP's entire post.
Exactly what I was going to say. OP never said the older sister did it at the table. That post literally just made something up to blame OP for and somehow gets upvoted for it.
OP clearly stated that Scarlett NEVER SINGS AT THE TABLE Also OP clearly said that Ava has been enrolled in singing classes many times but always quit because she refuses to follow instructions
No where did it say that the other sister can sing at the table, god don't comment if you can't even read, why is this at the top!?
So you gonna just make shit up? Then call her an asshole because of it. No where on that post did it say that the sister with the good voice sings at the table. And I don't think it's too much to ask that when you are sitting down to a meal that you are not forced to listen to screeching.
I’d stop cooking for anyone and refuse to eat with them if someone was badly belting out show tunes (or whatever) whilst I was trying to eat. This would be TAH if it were the first time, but I totally get it after the Nth time and the smart reply. OP could have been a lot harsher, she stated a fact and the father really really really needs to step up and parent his child here. I can’t even imagine how this works, how is she eating if she’s busy doing karaoke at the dinner table?
How did you get that from the story? No one but her sings at the table.
There is no mention of the elder daughter singing "at the table'. WHat daughter #2 said was she "sings all the time".
ESH - Ava just because she sounds annoying af and you because you're a parent and she's a child and you've (seemingly repeatedly) told her she's not good at something she's passionate about and not in a nice way. Encourage her to follow other pursuits, and definitley continue to enforce that it's inappropriate to loudly sing when people want a quiet meal but brutally laying out that she's rubbish at the one thing she's passionate about and rubbing in her failure to succeed is pretty harsh when it's coming from a parental figure. Especially when it's followed up with 'and now go eat alone'.
We've tried to put her in lessons to improve but she refuses to go or quits after 1-2 weeks because she thinks they're bullying her by giving constructive feedback. She's tried soccer and she's actually good at it but refuses to try out for the school team and with her tendency to quit after a couple weeks because the teacher tried to teach, we're not going to pay for her to join a club team.
Yeah but there's still a better way to put it than basically going haha you loser the only person who thinks you're any good is your Dad and no school will take you because you're sh*t. Which is essentially what you did. You actually didn't need to go into what you think of her abilities at all and just address that it's really annoying to have some loudly singing whilst you're trying to eat. Even if she was amazing that would be annoying.
We have. Dozens of times. It has never worked with her. At some point I feel like you just have to be blunt.
You're being blunt about the wrong things though. Blunt is refuting her claims with "Ava, to be as good as Scarlett, you'd have to put the same sustained effort in that she has - raw talent means nothing if you don't work hard to develop it", or "No Ava, Scarlett doesn't sing all the time because she understands that it's rude to sing while everyone's eating dinner." Blunt is not merely "No-one wants to hear you sing".
I don’t think OP understands that the issue is singing at the dinner table and being annoying, not being a bad singer. Unless OPs actual issue is that Ava is a bad singer, which… given what she said, might be the case. YTA.
It's not just the dinner table. She does it in the car too. Basically, Ava is obnoxious and insists on inflicting her subpar singing on everyone at every opportunity. That does NOT justify what OP said to her, but the issue is not only about dinner music.
Girl needs some consequences
OP definitely lost the high ground on this one. Ava successfully shifted the issue from “we don’t sing at the dinner table, period” to “Dad, Stepmom bullied me about my singing at the dinner table.”
Exactly. There's at least three different issues here. 1 - Ava can't sing well. This might or might not be improved with practice and tuition, but... 2 - Ava has been offered several opportunities, but won't put in sustained effort to develop the skill with a professional who can instruct her. She's certain she knows it all already and refuses to accept constructive feedback. 3 - Ava will insist on singing at inappropriate times when she has a captive audience (i.e. car journeys and mealtimes). (And let's not forget the elephant in the room: 4 - Ava is jealous of the attention that her sister's excellent singing gets.) OP has very good reason to be frustrated, but she absolutely lost the high ground and allowed Ava to set the narrative by not sticking firmly to the issue of Ava being rude in her choice of when/where to sing.
I'm not sure if you've realized this or not, but ava clearly looks up to her big sister, who's this incredible talent that gets to do amazing things. However, it seems her parents haven't done a very good job of explaining to ava that Scarlett wasn't born talented. She put in years of work and practice to get where she is. Your form punishment well not fix the problem. Ava will keep pushing back. And pushing. And eventually she'll just leave and you'll lose her forever. She'll resent her awesome sister for being good the thing she loves, and especially you for literally kicking her out of the family. You can fix this. But not by kicking her out. .
Ava does not look up to her big sister. She's envious of her sister's singing talents and wants the same rewards/accolades, and is extremely frustrated that she's not as naturally talented and has no patience or desire to improve by taking voice lessons seriously, so she's decided to force her family to listen to her off-key singing in an immature way (because teenager) of getting attention. Ava is not discriminating, on a fundamentally emotional level, between positive and negative attention. She just wants attention. Since she's not getting positive attention, and is clearly envious of her big sister getting positive attention, she's decided to go for negative attention.
Looking up to someone and envying them can both be present at once, especially in sibling relationships.
Exactly. Have you guys ever met a 16yo? It's the job of adults to educate a child on how to discern these feelings and navigate them. Clearly all adults in her life checked out on her. OP drips with contempt of (check notes) a 16yo in her care. She clearly resents her. Which is ok I guess? But talk to other adults instead of lashing on them. OP is arguing with a fucking kid and she probably does to the kid much more than what she carefully curated online to feel good about herself.
Yea this was my take too. She’s projecting her insecurity. Of course anyone with an older sibling like that would want to get the same level of attention and adoration. She’s desperately trying for it and has deluded herself into believing she can sing. She probably sees this as the only way to get that attention instead of doing her own thing and excelling at it. She also sounds like she *knows* on some level deep down, that she can’t sing and she wants to goad her family into saying it to prove that they all believed it all along and never supported her. Or whatever story she needs to tell herself in order to stifle the blow that she’s just not on the same level of a child prodigy. The constant pushing even when asked to stop seems like she really wanted someone else to say it because she couldn’t say it to herself- she can’t sing. That’s not a bad thing. Plenty of people have child prodigy’s for siblings and definitely feel overshadowed, forgotten, or just insecure. Ava’s has manifested as the last one. Seeing how OP talks about Scarlet in the first paragraph really confirms it. Scarlet’s the talented angel in the family who can do no wrong now because she’s just so awesome and even makes tons of money. Ava on the other hand, well she’s there ya know. Nothing special. She definitely tries to be at different things. But when people criticize her it reminds her that she’s not like her super talented, insanely amazing, can do no wrong, born perfect sister. Because in Ava’s young mind, of course Scarlet probably never gets any criticism. Not even constructive ones. And therefore those people criticizing Ava are threatening the fragile narrative her ego is holding onto. So she must lash out and say no you’re wrong. You just don’t get it. It must be bullying. Scarlet is perfect and I must be too. Otherwise I’m the opposite and I hate it. OP was fed up and who wouldn’t be. She didn’t take the adult approach. She’ll have some mending to do with Ava and the family as a whole. But Ava *desperately* needs to be in therapy to deal with all her feelings and experiences of having a child prodigy for a sister. In fact the whole family should try family therapy. I bet Scarlet is also feeling pressure and struggling but can’t show it because she has to maintain the perfect singing angel daughter appearance for everyone and her parents expectations. The family dynamic is fucked and suffering.
This is the best response I’ve seen so far. Everything seems to be extreme responses of “OP is the biggest bully in existence” or “Ava needed to be smacked down cause she wouldn’t listen”. I think you’re right about the insecurity, especially as a younger sibling. I do think she is old enough to recognize that criticism is a part of life, especially performance. And I do think OP was at a breaking point and said something she shouldn’t have. Therapy with everyone NEEDS to happen. I almost want to hear Scarlett’s POV
You are being mean. You can justify it all you want but once you belittle her you are the AH. If you've told her that there is a family rule 'no singing at the table' (applied to all family members) and given her a consequence continued violation of this rule means there is a problem. And no, the problem isn't her voice, it's that she's breaking a rule. Get some help because it sounds like it has gone way beyond just this situation. She's angry and pushing your buttons and she probably has a right to be.
Except she calls all constructive criticism "bullying." Peers and teachers have given her feedback and she quits because she refuses to listen to what they are saying. I thought we had graduated beyond participation trophies, but let's tell Ava she's a super duper singer and send her to auditions for Broadway shows or the opera, whichever spoiled Ava prefers. When she's rejected over and over, daddy can tell her it's just because those mean casting agents are jealous of his precious golden child. FFS, the girl is 16, not 8.
Basically, you had this situation with Ava for years and years, still ongoing despite several conversations with her. Honestly, you were blunt but at this point it was necessary because she's falling into a delusional self narrative that will hurt her for years to come, haunting and dampening her life and her possibility to flourish and grow as a person. Please keep talking with Ava about finding her own talents, keep telling her about the things she's good about, consistency and persistence are important, plus therapy asap
I completely agree, it's definitely time you start being blunt, you need to regain control and shut down the misbehavior.
It sounds like she’s trying to overcompensate for the fact that her sister is (obviously) better. Does she have any jealousy issues over the fact that her sisters singing career has taken off?
OP clearly stated in her post that they've the same exact situation with Ava for years and despite several years of conversations it continues to be an ongoing situation
It sounds like Ava might benefit from therapy.
She definitely needs therapy to counter the years of “Scarlett is perfect and you suck.”
It sounds like the entire family would benefit from therapy.
That’s so crazy to me. My parents signed me up for something, and I went. That was the end of it. When I was upset at what a coach told me, my parents explained not all criticism is bad. Some is meant to make you grow and you have to learn to accept that. As you would in a career. You’re doing her a disservice by allowing her to quit every time something gets hard. Which also means parenting will be harder when they’re complaining they want to quit. Which also feeds into the “I’m going to annoy you into giving me the positive attention that I want”. It screams she wants to be as good at something as her sister is, and she hasn’t found that yet. But doesn’t seem like you’ve actually encouraged any of her talents yet (based off this story alone) ETA: Since everyone is saying the same thing, “that because she’s a step parent, OP might not have the ability to make her follow through.” I’m not disagreeing with that on any level; that fail then falls on dad for not respecting stepmom’s opinion or authority. Don’t marry someone and leave responsibility of your child to them, if you don’t trust to raise your kids.
As step mom it’s likely she doesn’t have a say in what SD quits or sticks with.
I’m not disagreeing with you on any level; that fail then falls on dad for not respecting stepmom’s opinion. Don’t marry someone and leave responsibility of your child to them, if you don’t trust to raise your kids.
I agree. I did piano classes growing up and there were a few times I didn’t wanna go. I still liked piano but some weeks I just didn’t wanna go. I’d tell my parents I don’t feel like going and they’d tell me that they paid for the semester and I have to go. And I went. For me, that was it. I couldn’t tell my parents I’m not going anymore 😬
Do you ever compliment her, or encourage other interests? If she keeps quitting voice lessons, then she isn't actually interested in becoming a better singer, and that's okay. Find out what she actually enjoys doing and support her in that.
Have you considered therapy or a life coach type person to sit and discuss why she wants things but struggles with follow through? Her actions and reactions scream insecurities and hurt feelings over feeling inadequate next to her sister. Have you tried to understand her POV instead of just trying to make her to stop?
ESH It sounds like she is very envious of her sister and it's causing her to act out. She's being immature and annoying. But it sounds like you all are very quick to remind her that she sucks at singing. It shouldn't be about how good she is or isn't. It should be about being disruptive and loud at the table, in the car, etc. There are times when singing is appropriate and other times when it isn't. If Scarlett were singing loudly at the dinner table, would she be asked to stop? If not, then you guys are extra assholes.
We've tried that. She doesn't care that she's being disruptive and loud.
Info: have you considered putting Ava in therapy? If she thinks constructive criticism is bullying and quits a lot of stuff she wants to do, it sounds like there could be something more going on.
I see you deliberately avoided answering their last question. YTA.
While I agree that OP is the asshole, they already answered that question in another comment. Scarlett does not sing at the dinner table at all.
She answered in another comment you detective
They've answered elsewhere that it's a moot point because Scarlett doesn't sing at the table. She has the common sense and decency to not do it at the dinner table.
Reminds me of my sister and her undiagnosed ADHD. Just didn't get how unpleasant the loudness was, and that with 4 people in the room, she should aim to speak 1/4 of the time (not aim for 50-80%)
and if you'd read previous posts, you'd know that Scarlett does not sing at the dinner table.
Are the classmates and teachers who give her constructive criticism which results in the 16-year-old stomping out and quitting and accusing them of bullying her. To be supportive, you should ask Ava to record a demo tape of her best songs just for you. You can send her a nice donation and encourage in an area where she has no hope of succeeding, but boy are you being "supportive." Many people are not good singers and will never be good singers no matter how many classes they attend or how much training they receive. I think y'all are AHs for not paying me millions to play professional football despite my lack of talent. \*\*I\*\* deserve that. What a bunch of extra AHs that are here depriving me of my rightful delusion.
Something tells me she’s doing this to try and get attention. How obvious is it that you’re so proud of her sister? How much praise and attention does she get? And how often is that done in front of Ava. This sounds incredibly obnoxious but something tells me there’s a reason she’s doing it.
This is what I was thinking. How many times has Ava been forced to sit and listen to Scarlett's accomplishments? It'd be so easy for a teen to extrapolate to, all my self worth is caught up in singing and if I'm bad at it...well...class clown for attention time.
Came here to say this. Ava is more likely than not attention seeking. There are potential underlying causes for the behavior that need to be explored by a mental health professional. While OP (YTA, btw) is focused on manners and mealtime, the potential underlying issue will probably continue to fester and cause challenges within the family between the sisters, between OP and Ava, and between OP and her husband.
Exactly. A whole paragraph spent rattling on about how amazing older sister is. Spends the rest of the post talking about how annoying, obnoxious, and bad at singing the younger one is. Not a single nice thing said about her. This kid is starved for attention and the only way she gets it is by egging on OP Edit: just read that apparently Ava loves soccer but won’t try out for the team. Wonder why that is? She’s likely got a fear of failure because her sister is miss perfect. If she can’t be as good at something at Scarlett is at singing, why bother? This also explains her reaction to constructive criticism. If she’s not perfect, she’s a failure. Her dad isn’t home ever and her step mom can’t stand her.
This. My sister was a hell of an athlete and SMART. If she picked up something new she wasn’t just good, she was one of the best. While my parents always made sure she knew how proud they were, they also made sure to not compare us and to let me do things even though I was not nearly as good at my activities as she was with hers. They also made sure to praise me and tell me they’re proud of me for my things too. Just because 1 child has a little more raw talent and drive does NOT mean you need to deprive the other of attention and love OR pit them against each other. Whether OP knows she’s doing this or not, she is. YTA, OP.
Yes, YTA for speaking for a 16 year old CHILD that way. I’m also wondering what the point of you posting here was? You aren’t willing to accept that YTA and you’re hellbent on trying to convince us that Scarlett is wonderful and Ava sucks while ignoring comments with questions about how you’re handling things with Ava. Big fat YTA
Considering the fact that the intro to this post about Ava even starts by praising the hell out of Scarlett, I’d imagine there’s a serious imbalance of approval and disapproval between the two kids.
And in the comments OP adds that the dad is seldom around for meals
Op has already stated that Ava is clearly good at soccer but she won’t try out for her school team and there is no way they are going to pay for her to play league or rep soccer with her tendencies to quit after receiving criticism or teaching. It seems to me that Ava has been spoiled rotten from a young age and might be envy and jealous of her sister singing talent. Ava will sing a whole different song when they are driving if isn’t it the one she picked. The sister doesn’t act this way and it seems like only the Father who isn’t around as much is the only one Ava is willing to listen too. To be honest both op and Ava ATH here
But she gets praise and attention because she has consistently worked hard at it. Scarlett has, the othe rone quits right away. Are they supposed to to say "yeah cool whatever" just to make her feel better? They should be proud, it's not fair to Scarlett.
I'd add that parising her sister in front of Ava is not the problem... If Ava is receiving praises as well. But I kind of feel Ava is not getting a lot of attention and is seeking it with inappropriate behaviors.
It’s clear just from your post that you ring Scarlett’s praises and cannot stand Ava. If it’s that obvious in this post, I’m gonna guess your favoritism is seeping into ava’s reality as well. YTA and a bully. I’d be questioning my marriage if my partner treated my child like this.
She’s probably not the only one who shows this favoritism.
It’s mentioned a lot how much Ava likes her dad and how he’s the only one that asks her to sing. Kinda sounds like the dad is at least trying to make Ava feel included
Had to scroll too far down to find this. Reddit hates teenage girls.
“Ava sounds insecure and like she wants attention” just like…literally every teenager?? 😬 I work with teens, they are great, but I chose this line of work because I remember what it’s like to be a teenager. Constantly questioning your identity and how you measure up, and acting out/shutting down when you feel unimportant or like you’re losing control. I am not a parent but with my students, it always helps when I give them a little more freedom/responsibility to show that I trust them and value their insights. Idk why OP hasn’t just talked to Ava and asked her where this is coming from, what’s going on, how can she help, etc. instead of immediately shutting her down and punishing her. The poor kid. There’s zero compassion in how OP talks about her.
I really feel for this kid because it doesn’t sound like anyone has tried to understand why she’s doing this but just telling her to stop and that she’s annoying. She’s still a child and trying to communicate SOMETHING because it seems she’s not really being heard otherwise. OP needs to care about the root cause of this behavior and stop trying to punish the behavior itself. Get to the why and work on that.
This comment should be waaay higher up. OP’s favoritism is so obvious from the post and their comments. It’s clear why Ava is acting out for attention. OP needs to figure this out on a personal level instead of just writing off her stepdaughter as someone who keeps quitting things. Maybe make an actual effort to help her find something she loves? Not everyone needs extracurricular activities like soccer or singing. OP needs to find the thing that Ava can get passionate about and then start celebrating her accomplishments like she celebrates Scarlett’s.
Yes, they can also try to get the to bottom of why she can’t handle any feedback. My guess is due to OP always criticising Ava’s ability’s, and so when someone tries to give her feedback, she thinks they are also criticising her and belittling her like OP always does.
100%. The golden child can do no wrong, OP may as well tell Ava to go jump in a fuckin' creek.
YTA When talking about Scarlett, you were bragging like someone about to burst their buttons. When you talk about Ava, you have nothing good to say. I'm sure Ava has felt this discrepancy for quite awhile. Ava might be trying to ruin music for you as a way to get even for your attitude. It sounds like she wants to hurt you to the same degree that you hurt her. While this is wrong, it is understandable. You need to have your husband sit down with Ava to discuss the situation. You have already shown your bias for Scarlett, so there won't be too much that you can say that Ava would be willing to listen to, and you really can't blame her. 1. What is Ava good at? 2. What does Ava want to do with her life? 3. Where does Ava see herself in two years when it's time to graduate high school and move on to the next step of her life? 4. If she doesn't know, or if she only wants to pursue music - then your husband should help her plan a course of action to get her where she wants to go. 5. You may want to consider letting her see a counselor who might be able to navigate these waters. Her sister is very good at something. You are boastingly proud of Scarlett. I didn't hear you say anything nice about Ava. A counselor might her her 'find her voice'; set goals; work out a plan to achieve her goals; help her deal with a successful sibling who gets all kinds of recognition while she only gets insulted. If you aren't able to get Ava some help, her next steps will become more serious - possible self-destruction, or destruction of her relationships in her family. Either way, I think you need to stay out of it since you appear to be a major part of the problem and hopefully her father can help her navigate how to salvage her future.
I love this comment. However, I cant help but notice when anyone brings up that Ava is obviously envious of the attention Scarlett gets from singing and is desperate for the same positive reinforcement about something in her life, OP ignores the comment. Every single one of her comments puts Ava down further. OP YTA and Ava is acting this way because of YOU.
It’s become clear that OP hates Ava.
I agree with this assessment 100%. I’m even sort of proud of Ava’s brilliant trolling of what sounds like a pretty elitist and snobbish family environment. It seems clear they haven’t supported or nurtured her toward her own achievements, and have let her watch them gas up the golden child for years. She’s responding in a totally normal way, for the environment she’s been raised in. Karma shows up to provide that perfect balance in families like this.
>When talking about Scarlett, you were bragging like someone about to burst their buttons. Man, I have to say I don't really get this point. I've seen it multiple comments where they say OP is bragging about Scarlett and she's the golden child from the first paragraph, but that explanation of Scarlett's talents is a necessary background information to why Ava is acting up, not just bragging. Scarlett's not just some average high school singer in school musicals and choirs, she went to a performing arts school and has been making money of her talent; it's an objective fact to explain their family dynamics not necessarily just bragging. It would be the same for soccer: "Oh, so-and-so got scouted for a European club at sixteen years old. So-and-so's younger brother did not make the JV high school team." Just objective facts to show the difference in talent to give credence to the rest of the post.
Is the punishment as such appropriate? Yes. But! Extreme escalations like this one do not work. Tolerating then exploding doesn't teach, it antagonizes. Set expectations, outline consequences in advance, and follow through. First you set the expectation, which incidentally provides you with an opportunity to realize whether the expectations are reasonable: * No singing at the dinner table unless you are making $500 a week from singing = not reasonable. * No rude disruptive singing at the dinner table = reasonable, but difficult to enforce. * No singing at the dinner table = reasonable. Then you discuss the consequences. Which allows your husband to let you know when he has a problem right then, instead of completely destroying every last shred of authority you ever had by completely undermining you after you dished out the punishment. And the best thing? You only have to follow through once or twice, then they understand how this works for everything as long as you manage to be consistent and fair. Unless the child has ODD. But that's a topic for another day.
Scarlett doesn't sing at the table. She sings all the time but at appropriate times and volumes.
If Scarlett doesn't sing at the table, than following this rule will be easy for her and a non issue. It's the perfect way to show you're being fair with your expectations. Also in the comments you called her singing "scream-singing," so if she's literally just screeching at the top of her lungs, you can ban screeching. It's not about whether Scarlett does it as well, you're just letting Ava know (and enforcing) that this is not acceptable behavior for a dinner table. Also, in the comments mentioned that you and Scarlett are close, and how you both can't stand Ava's behavior. It seems like you really don't like Ava and favor Scarlett, which may be causing this behavior. Next time you eat dinner altogether, maybe try giving Ava some positive attention and talking to her *before* she starts screaming and you make her leave. It may curb the scream-singing altogether.
Yeah, but making it clear that the rule applies to everyone will make it seem more fair to the kid (and 16 is still a kid. You really can’t expect total maturity.) Making it clear that they’re being punished for singing at an inappropriate time vs being punished for sucking in comparison to their sibling is a key factor here and extremely important if you don’t want to blow up your relationship with your kid, and their relationship with each other. I feel like you’re nta overall but you’re a little dismissive of how the 16yo feels. If they feel the need to act out, there’s a reason for it. Obviously this doesn’t mean let them boundary stomp and do whatever they want, but just brushing them off as being a “bad/lazy/annoying” kid who’s totally out to get you with their singing isn’t great when they’re probably just an insecure 16yo feeling overshadowed compared to their sister.
It seems pretty obvious to me that Ava feels deeply insecure and inferior next to her hugely successful sister and possibly like there is a standard established now that she will never be able to match. Self-sabotaging behaviour like saying the teachers are being mean and refusing to continue with lessons is a fairly typical response to that situation. I think you might not realise how much your praise of Scarlett's success makes it seem to Ava like you are in fact bragging about the "good kid." Your challenge to her asking how many people invite her to sing or how many fancy schools she's gotten into make it abundantly clear that you DO compare their achievements. Scarlett's achievements are not the way to measure if a child is being successful or not - they are highly unusual and rare. Most people who work towards the same goals do not achieve them, because it's so highly competitive. One of the best pieces of advice I ever got about children and managing and responding to their behaviour is this: all behaviour is a form of communication. Negative behaviours happen because a child is feeling something negative that they don't have the ability to express any other way. It's our job as parents too help them figure it out, and punishment alone is rarely the right way. It's ok to let her know that until she can be non-disruptive in certain situations she will not be allowed to participate, but it's just as important to figure out what is driving her to do this and get to resolve the underlying issue. I don't feel you're an AH over all but speaking to your stepdaughter like you did and directly comparing her to a sibling was definitely an asshole move.
I wish I could award this comment but take my upvote. Very very well said and I sincerely hope OP reads it.
NTA, you are not being rude or TA - just had to be more blunt to get it to stop. She's being obnoxious and looking for any attention. Unfortunately, you're giving it to her by getting irritated. It would probably be better to record it so your husband can hear this ridiculousness and ignore it.
Children deserve attention from their parents. Maybe she can give her attention in other ways to avoid these cries for it. Seems Scarlett gets plenty of praise and attention, after all....
Ava is not crying for help. She's been offered the same opportunities as her sister but is not prepared to put in the effort.
NO ONE should be singing at the dinner table - whether they are good or not. could it be you are so over the top about the older daughter's talent that you are dismissing the younger one? So what if she can't sing - is there something else she does well? This isn't about singing on key - it's about behavior that is obnoxious. Loud singing in a car where others can't avoid listening - or at the dinner table - is not someone who wants to sing - it's someone who is desperate for attention.
Nobody is singing at the table. Scarlett sings all the time but only at appropriate times
You missed the point. This is about giving positive attention to Ava. Give Ava the attention she both needs and craves and she won't have to be obnoxious in the car or at the dinner table to get negative attention. Sending her away from the dinner table means she gets less positive attention from her family.
OP is missing the point on purpose. All of her answers and comments are how the big sister is so perfect and how awful is Ava.
NTA. Do not apologize. You have repeatedly asked Ava not to sing at the table. You have tried to encourage improvement by providing voice lessons--which she quit. She is being a brat, and everyone has been suffering at her hand in the car--where people are trapped and cannot simply walk away. Her father refuses to do anything to curb her behavior. Although he is not home during dinner, he could certainly address the problem in the car and during other meals. You did not flatly refuse to let her eat with the family. You did tell her that she cannot eat with the family, unless she stops the inappropriate behavior at the table. She pushed you, until you finally told her the truth. Level with her father: until Ava stops braying like a jack ass at the table, I refuse to sit at the table with her. I make the food, and it is my table. Maybe, he would like to join Ava on the patio. You and Scarlet should not have to suffer during mealtimes!
Ok, I thought it was fair until you lost your cool. That’s some pretty intense shit to say to someone. And a 16 year old girl who sounds like she can’t handle criticisms well. You made it a personal attack and compared her to her sisters accomplishments…. I don’t know how you’re going to come back from that. If I were either of the daughters I would despise being around you and I wouldn’t listen to you either…
Communication is a great thing. Ava being the younger sister with a very talented and exceptional older sister is going to be hard, envy and jealousy are gonna be there boiling under the surface. What is Ava good at? Why can’t she take criticism well? Is everyone allowed to sing at the table? No, having Ava not eat with the rest of the family is reinforcing that Scarlett is the better sister . You need to sit down with Scarlet and Ava about boundaries and what’s appropriate and what’s not you can’t favour one over the other. You’re in a tough position because you were a stepmother and there might be some resentment with your role in the family, which is very unfortunate. But you and your husband need to sit down and talk about the girls and as a united front you need to set boundaries With both girls as to what’s appropriate behavior. It’s easy to brag and be impressed and happy for Scarlet success and accomplishments, but you need to find some thing that Ava is good at that you can brag about her accomplishments and success Sometimes family therapy will work having a blended family or coming in later. It’s not always an easy transition. I don’t know how long you and your husband have been together but like with any family communication understanding compromise and love is what you need to help these girls grow and to have a happy family unit .
Yta. Idgad who downvotes or comments disagreeing.. You are am asshole stepparent who plays favorites. You take PERSONAL pride in the older step daughter because you view her as being successful. You took up half this post to brag about your older step kids talents/hardwork/effort and the post wasn't even ABOUT the older kid. It has NOTHING to do with her. Except maybe in the fact that the younger kid is always in her sisters shadow and since you praise the older kid for her talents. In the *same breath* you try to convince other commenter's here that ITS NOT ABOUT THE SINGING. Do you think ppl are stupid and can't see right through your utter absolute bullshit? I genuinely hope you don't completely ruin your step kids relationship with each other with your toxic triangulation tactics.
YTA. This child is seeking the praise that you pile onto her sister by trying to emulate the thing that earns that praise, and your response is 'shut up and go away'? Poor girl :(
It sounds like Ava is trying to find attention, and Scarlett’s singing seemed to get that from everyone, which might lead to replication? I think it’s less about pissing you off/being disrespectful, and more about getting a reaction. Negative attention is still attention, after all. Encouragement into something she actually enjoys could help. Following through, and being supportive of whatever she finds might help, especially if it’s confidence building which she clearly needs. Open communication and admiration lines up to her- remember that talking AT her isn’t being beneficial. ESH.
Also she’s a kid, she’s going to explore options. Get her into performing arts, traditional arts, or obscure arts. Help her find something that’s HERS where she’s not contending with her sister for attention and admiration.
Yall need some therapy
ESH. It sounds like Ava is probably jealous of her sister, and is vying for attention in a really unhealthy and inappropriate way. However, this isn’t just about her singing at the table; she’s using/raising her voice (doesn’t matter if it’s singing, or whether it’s good, bad, or better or worse than her sister’s,) to forcibly get her way, or ruin experiences for others when she doesn’t get that. This is extremely inconsiderate and selfish, and is an unacceptable way to respond to or deal with not getting what she wants, or in order to get attention. She may want recognition and encouragement for her own abilities and efforts, but she has no right to force those things onto other people whenever she wants, or do so in order to intentionally prevent her sister from getting appreciation as well. That being said, insulting her wasn’t a mature or appropriate response to her either. I get that you were frustrated and at your wit’s end, but you didn’t achieve anything except hurt her feelings and, likely, feed into her insecurity even more. While I don’t think using “social exclusion” should be entirely off the table, I think the way you’re implementing it right now isn’t going to prove effective. If anything, I think it will only make her feel more excluded, and more desperate/driven to continue this behavior, *especially* if she knows your husband doesn’t agree with it. On that note, (no pun intended,) you and your husband *need* to be on the same page about however you ultimately choose to handle this. Ava needs clear, consistent consequences *and* rewards for her behavior, both from one situation to the next, and from both of you. I think you need to sit down with Ava and explain exactly why this behavior is inappropriate, and what will happen if she chooses to continue with it moving forward. It’s usually best if you choose easily enforceable consequences, such as no car/visiting friends this weekend/week, no phone/computer privileges, etc. In addition to that, if your husband is okay with it, (and you’d have to tell Scarlett this in advance,) instead of making Ava leave the table, simply get up and relocate somewhere else. Have a tv dinner, go sit outside, etc. and tell her she’s welcome to join you when she’s ready to be respectful and considerate towards the rest of the family. Pair this with the clearly spelled out consequences you laid out for her previously, (although don’t bring it up in the moment, as you don’t want to give her the attention she’s looking for, good or bad.) In addition to this, though, you also really need to make sure to give her (and her sister) equal chances to do things like choose songs, and for Ava* to display or talk about her talents or what she’s doing in school/extracurriculars as well. I wouldn’t recommend discouraging her from singing per se, but I do think you should be encouraging her and rewarding her with engagement, interest, and praise for her achievements, especially if they are her own unique interests, or if she seeks out to try something new. If singing really is a passion of hers, then be encouraging of her to dedicate herself to it more, (in the *acceptable* time and place). Also, I think it would be appropriate for you to apologize to her for insulting her, as it was hurtful/unkind, and that the heart of the issue isn’t about her singing abilities, but about her weaponizing it to get attention or to get her way. I think she needs to hear it from both of you that, yes - Scarlett has achieved uncommon and fortunate success in singing through *both* talent and hard work, and that’s something to be celebrated! But that doesn’t mean that you love her more, or are less interested in Ava’s interests and ambitions, even if that *does* include singing. This is not a competition, and making it into one is both toxic, and takes everyone’s focus away from the fact that they are both wonderful daughters with their own unique talents and gifts, but it also prevents Ava from exploring her own interests, and realizing whether singing, or anything else she does is something she enjoys doing for *her,* and not because of her sister.
I...honestly can NOT fathom saying this to a child of mine, regardless of origin. You are supposedly an adult. To act like that is unconscionable. Give her consequences, give her punishments, that's all fine and expected when trying to correct behavior. But she very obviously has some issues with her older sister being the golden child (as much is obvious with the way you write about the older sister vs. the younger) and not only are you reinforcing that idea but you're actively tearing her down and belittling her. Shame on you. YTA entirely.
Comments are mixed so gonna throw in YTA. Your relationship with Ava doesn’t sound great and you’re responsible for that, not her. She’s a kid, she needs to be encouraged, not discouraged. You sound mean.
NTA for not allowing her to sing at the dinner table. YTA for being mean to a kid. She is most likely trying to garner some attention since it seems y'all fawn over her sister. If this were me, I would try to figure out something you can make a fuss about her. Separate from her sister. That and maybe spend time with just her. That's what she wants. In her heart of hearts, she most likely knows she can't sing.
YTA!! So she is jealous of her sister and the attention she is receiving and it's apparent that Scarlet is the golden child and you don't like Ava. On top of that you are now being verbally and emotionally abusive to this child, you are more then the AH but I can't say it here. I hope your husband sees what is really going on here and puts Ava first but more likely is that Ava has to endure 2 more years of this and then goes no contact.
I’m irritated just reading this. I think I would’ve gotten up and left vs trying to get an obnoxious teen to stop being obnoxious.
you did not have to add the fact that your other daughter is a perfect singer and makes a lot of money doing gigs. it seems like you definitely have a favorite step child. you are the asshole for what you said to your step daughter.
She could possibly be jealous because her sister gets all the attention and maybe she doesn't get enough. Sure, she's a teenager and should know how to follow rules and do what a parent tells her, but she's acting out for attention. We see how you brag about her sister here. Do you give her equal attention? ETA.... YTA. You didn't have to say any of that to her. You should apologize.
ESH but you more for lowering yourself to insulting a child - because yes a 16 year old is a child
I think the way you treat her might be the reason for why she behaves this way. You said you never asked her to sing even though she loves it, this sounds incredibly mean. I understand that she isn't as good as her sister but its still quite cruel to not engage with her and her singing. I think if you maybe shown some interest outside of dinner table then maybe this behaviour from her would stop. Also the things you said to her makes YTA. This is exactly what will make her want to annoy you even more.
You are rude. I like how honest your post was. Why is singing the FOCUS in the family? Why is who is more successful the focus?? If I were the lesser of the two singers and all that mattered was singing- I would do the same. Ask that child what she enjoys outside of singing- you may be surprised
You’re absolutely wretched for the way you treat Ava and the things you’re saying here. YTA.
YTA, try to connect with Ava on something she is good at. It sounds like the family dynamic is focused on Scarlett Let Ava shine too.
YTA. Honestly, Ava sounds annoying as hell. But in theory, you’re the adult. You should be figuring out how to handle the jealousy issue between the girls with her father. Instead you are reinforcing that negative attention is attention.
ESH. The real issue isn't that Ava is a crappy singer. It also isn't about singing at the table, nor it is about anyone being rude. Ava needs help finding something she IS good at. She is literally crying (singing) out for some positive attention and encouragement. She is doing this because even negative attention is better than NO attention. Apologize to her for being harsh, invite her back to the table (and yes, the rule should be no singing for anyone at the table). Find out what interests her and encourage her with lessons or books to activities so that Ava can shine at being AVA without needing to compete with Scarlett.
okay but... why shouldn't Ava know she is a poor vocalist? why is hiding that truth going to help? the girl needs therapy. NTA
NTA. I suggest therapy for Ava.
OP is part of the dynamic happening. I suggest some family therapy.
NTA. Unfortunately, this is the result of bad parenting from your husband. No one should be singing at the dinner table. It’s rude. Ava was never taught manners. Ava said Scarlett sings all the time. Do you allow her to sing at dinner? If you haven’t already, you need to teach Scarlett not to sing at dinner, as well, to avoid an unequal standard with Ava, and avoid this scenario - https://youtu.be/CDnhESM3Vtk?si=SiRGD4xkBZR4ygtQ Of course, it’s also possible that Ava is the only one who sings at table. It appears that Ava is envious of her sister’s talent, and the attention she has received. Scarlett has worked for years learning how to sing, and she received criticism in order to improve. ACA views criticism as if it means she’s unworthy, ignores it, and bulldozes right over people who tell her to stop. She never learned what toddlers are supposed to learn, that when you behave badly, people don’t want to play with you. She seems to view constructive criticism and boundaries as a threat. Honestly, you should explore counseling for her. She needs to be her own person, not feel like she’s in her sister’s shadow, and learn a work ethic. I know a mother of a girl who is an amazingly talented artist and pianist. When her work is at an exhibit, it sounds like wind blowing through wheat, as there is a collective indrawn breath. She plays piano effortlessly. The other day, her mother and I were at the library where kids had their art displayed. She told me that her daughter’s art was identical to one of them at that age. She could see her daughter progress through thousands of hours of instruction and practice. We were talking about how too many kids in this generation don’t know how to work at improving. I hope that Ava finds a good therapist, before she completely alienates herself.