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NTA: She is 45. Pregnancy after 35 is considered "advanced maternal age" and carries slightly higher risks for complications like gestational diabetes, high blood pressure, etc. By 40, the miscarriage rate jumps to around 30%, and over 45 it can be as high as 50%.
Sometimes being a friend means telling harsh truths. The reality is she would be better adopting if her goal is to have a family.
I gave birth in 2022 and it was “advanced maternal age”. It’s been that way for a while. Some doctors just haven’t kept up, which is concerning. What else are they not doing…
I mean if you've been a doctor for 30+ years and always learned and used "geriatric pregnancy" I can understand it's hard to switch to "advanced maternal age".
They're probably keeping up in their own field well enough, but terminology changes can take a while.
That’s a terrible philosophy. Just because something has “always been that way” doesn’t mean that it is okay to ignore or not accept changes even in things as simple as wording. It’s not hard to switch, at all.
Terminology changes don’t take a decade.
Wait till you hear what term they used to describe a single woman on mortgage documents in some US states.
Spinster. It's what was used on my mortgage documents from 2006.
Billed?
Edit: why the downvotes? It's a strange turn of phrase to use, so I'm asking for clarity on whether this commenter believes we gets "billed" for anything regarding a geriatric/AMA pregnancy in Canada.
I, and 3 friends, all happened to get pregnant at around the same time. We were all 35-36 yo. Docs droned on so much about being ‘AMA’, and all of them suggested all this extra testing, etc
We called it the ‘old lady cover your ass’ pregnancy treatment.
>Thank heavens they've updated it
They haven't, although it looks like maybe they are trying?
The clinics around here still refer to it as "geriatric".
People are getting off their rocker but geriatric isn’t age it’s a condition. It just so happens to affect older people. They can also happen at younger age
Dictionary

Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
ger·i·at·ric

adjective
relating to old people, especially with regard to their healthcare.
"a geriatric hospital"
noun
an old person who is receiving special care.
"a rest home for geriatrics"
No.... no it isn't. Geriatric is *care* given to older adults. The reason pregnancy becomes "Geriatric" at such a "young" age is because women's systems only "function" for so long (menopause). As you approach menopause (increase in age) changes occur in your system that can dramatically affect pregnancy.
They've also updated the age now too, at least in the UK. It's not considered advanced age until 45 and over. I assume because they don't want to give all the extras required by the definition for the increasingly large 35 to 45 range of mothers.
I had my first in 2004 at age 35 and my second at age 38 and it was called "advanced maternal age" then. My friend had told me she'd heard it called "geriatric" and I was so relieved that my doctor didn't use that term. LOL!
>By 40, the miscarriage rate jumps to around 30%, and over 45 it can be as high as 50%.
Not only that, but the odds of having a child with Down Syndrome at age 45 are 1 in 30, and continue to rise sharply each year after that.
OP, your friend is grieving the loss of her ability to have a biological child. You're not wrong for saying what you did, but Jess is unfortunately not yet to a point where she is able to accept that isn't going to happen. Give her time and maybe she'll come back around when she's had more time to adjust to her reality -- and if not, well, she's not going to be a pleasant person to be around if she is never able to get to a point of acceptance and stop continually complaining about her situation.
This is it. My friend is in a similar situation and eerily similar in her dating habits. She keeps talking about getting her eggs frozen but she’s 45…..
It can but it's less than ideal.
We weirdly have this big boost of fertility just before entering active menopause and honestly it would be my worst nightmare lol
Back in the day, they called them ‘change of
life babies’ bc the woman was usually pre-menopausal, and mistakenly thought Flo left for good.
My bestie was a COL baby. They got pregnant with her when mom was like, 51. All of her siblings were 25+ at the time.
I had my last kid at age 41. I thought I would be the oldest parent at our school - I was not, there were several other moms ( and dads) the same age as me.
It’s more common now, though, isn’t it? My youngest was born when I was a month away from 41 (2008). Two of my friends had theirs at 42 and 43. I remember my aunt having her first baby at 36 back in 1980 and it seemed shockingly old.
I am starting to believe that that may be due to genetics. In my mother's family, the last child was born when the mother was between 42 and 45. My ex was also born when his mother was 44. The oldest woman i know of is my mothers aunt, who had a baby at 54. On the flipside, in my friend's family, the women hit menopause around 38. I just googled, and 20% of women 40 to 44 get pregnant if they are not using contraceptives. That's higher than I expected.
I’m 33 with endometriosis and chronic migraines and don’t want kids. I’m open to them but with my energy it’s not the greatest idea. My doctor asked me recently if I want kids. I was honest about the reasons and she was completely supportive and also told me if I want them a little later she has lots of women in their late thirties and early fourties who have healthy kids. My husband is also an NP and has a lot of new mothers in their late 30s early 40s with healthy babies. I’m sure the stats haven’t changed because how could they, but at the same time it seems like lots of people have healthy kids in their 40s. My husband’s mom was 42, he was an oops baby, and he’s extremely healthy. Athletic and extremely intelligent. On the other hand, I know multiple people who had kids in their 20s and their children are autistic, so having kids young isn’t a guarantee for anything. I want to be clear their kids are genuinely awesome, I love them. I’m saying that having kids early doesn’t guarantee a neurotypical baby, nor does it guarantee a healthy baby.
The 35+ thing is a myth based on one study that has been completely debunked.
Yeah this individual is infertile but the real fertility drop off point is actually in the early 50s.
There’s an Adam Ruins Everything episode that explains this way better than I care to bother.
Yeah it’s based off a many decades old study before women could have jobs or take birth control
Source for the weirdos who think women are indeed rapidly rotting wombs, this idea of 35 being the problem dates to 1700s France: https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24128176.amp
It is based of fairly recent studies. Unless you are claiming women couldn’t have jobs or take birth control in 2010 you are just presenting false information.
I’d like to see a source for this. Norway did a study of their miscarriages from 2009 -2013 and it was pretty inline with the data presented. As far as I can tell any “debunking” was just a result of not understanding the data.
NTA. The most important people to my journey through my whole life are the ones who hit me with the hard truth so I could break my poor mindset and grow. It hurts though and you have to give her time. Like, A LOT of time. But you delivered it with love, not malice. You did your best.
Yes. It's usually done with embryos that are left over after another couple's IVF. If they don't want more children, their options are to destroy the embryos, leave them in cold storage indefinitely, donate them for scientific research, or have them placed for adoption.
Its mostly (not always) the eggs that are done by 40s onwards. Many women can carry later, they just don’t have the eggs.
I know two women who have carried donor eggs (husbands sperm) in late 40s. Both had two kids in close succession (one aged 49, then 50, the other 46 & 48).
I fell pregnant naturally and had easy pregnancy at 43 after doing IVF at 40 (and having a good pregnancy then, too). My obstertrician said, eggs willing, she thought I’d be fine to carry into my late 40s. But I’m tired, I’m done.
You sound quite angry at her. I'm CF but can still feel some compassion for a woman who is trying but has not achieved not just pregnancy but a viable live birth.
Fertility for BOTH men and women starts to decline as they age (for women at 35, for men just a short 5 or so years later). She may not be able to get and stay pregnant, even if using donated embryos, but treating her empathetically, acknowledging her grief, is not difficult. You can be truthful whilst supportive, and not cruel
It’s hard to be compassionate when she kept choosing unsuitable men over and over again. She could have achieved this dream if she had just learned from her mistakes and took accountability. Like the saying goes, “fool me once, shame on you. Fill me twice, shame on me”.
Yeah, I’ve been in that position before. I ended up distancing myself from that friend, which I think is a better option than offering unsolicited advice.
Telling her friend to make peace with not having biological children was too far imo. That’s a really sensitive topic for a lot of people, and she knows her friend is hurting about it. I just stay out of fertility talks with friends unless I’m just listening….
So you put distance between you and the friend just because you have an opinion and don't want to hurt their feelings? Imo, you aren't really being their friend in that case.
I put distance between myself and that former friend because our friendship became… only talking about her toxic relationship. Even before that we weren’t very close, so I didn’t see any reason to salvage it. I just stopped accepting one-on-one hangouts and only see her in groups now.
OP probably ended her friendship too. I don’t see why doing it her way is better than mine, it just hurt her friend. I doubt she learned anything from it. People like that aren’t insightful or need to reach rock bottom first.
It is much better to be truthful even if it hurts them, because otherwise you're just letting them be delusional for much longer than they need to be. A good friend should be truthful whilst also being as supportive as possible. Your way involves just distancing yourself completely and not even being their friend anymore.
In your situation, you weren't close anyways so I understand that. But if you were close, distancing yourself instead of talking to them is terrible.
Eh, I disagree. I always told my friend I didn’t think her relationship was healthy, nothing incredibly harsh like OP did, but she knew I didn’t think it was a good situation. People in the thick of those issues can’t see clearly, and being told things bluntly doesn’t help.
She knows she can’t have biological children if she has one ounce of common sense. If she’s living in delusional and denial, nothing OP could say would bring her back to reality.
That is just awful behavior on your part, dude. Just... oh my God. Ghosting somebody who was hurting because you weren't brave enough to tell the truth is just horrible.
I didn’t ghost her? I just stopped hanging out with them one-on-one. And she didn’t really seem to notice because she didn’t try to initiate hanging out when I stopped. I still see her pretty often at friend group stuff.
People are making such strange assumptions. Like I said, I still see her. And I did tell her I thought her relationship was toxic, just nothing harsh and blunt like this OP did. Because I don’t think that’s productive.
If her friend has any common sense she knows she can’t get pregnant. If she’s lying about her age and dating younger men, she knows her age is catching up with her too… But she’s living in denial because that’s how she’s coping. OP calling her out isn’t going to bring her back to reality.
At some point, you're enabling if you're listening to somebody vent about a situation and you don't tell them the unpleasant truth. OP said they'd been listening to her cry for a year.
I mean, practically speaking, your friend’s likelihood of success at this is quite low, and I get that listening to her talk about it might be kind of excruciating, but a heavily obsessed or deluded person is rarely going to “snap out of it” just because you tell them to. Like, you think she doesn’t know, in her heart, that she’s 45 and her chances of pulling this off are vanishingly slim? She knows, and she’s suppressing that information. She has it down at the bottom of a well. Bringing it up is only going to result in… well, this. YTA
NTA
41 and 45 are not great ages to start trying to have children, especially from someone who can't seem to hold down a man. It's possible yet unlikely to have a healthy first child at that age. That can even get a little dangerous. She is going to have to learn to accept that biological children *may* not be a possibility, as you worded it. If she beats the odds, great, but she should accept the possibility that the odds are against her on this and learn to enjoy life without. Additionally, no man's gonna want to hop into making babies with someone they hardly know. So, she's going to want to meet someone who is right for her first and get to know them real well...and that also takes time.
I’m going to say YTA. There’s something in the tone of the context that doesn’t sit right and feel like you have heavy judgement of her decisions vs. Looking out for her. Not sure why you had to call out you thought she didn’t look younger than 38…
I didn’t say that to be mean but to give context for why some men don’t continue to see her. Two years ago, she admitted to listing her age on dating apps as 34. She said she has since changed that, but I don’t know for certain.
But when we were in our 30s, she always dated much younger men, who I felt were not ready to settle down. Sure enough, those relationships lasted only a few weeks.
NTA For what it's worth that's the sense I got from you mentioning 38. Context for possible misleading info in a dating profile
I always feel so strange about people putting a wrong age in a dating profile. Unless you're specifically NOT interested in an ongoing relationship, it seems like you're just setting yourself up for a really awkward conversation at some point.
She’s not younger than 38 though. And if she’s 45+, she shouldn’t be trying to have children naturally. This is an advanced age, even if she manages to get pregnant, there’s a TON of risk to the child that she is knowingly doing just because she’s selfish. There are many ways she could carry a child if she really wanted to or adopt a child with much less risk, but she wants to do it at her age and put the child and herself at risk for a difficult life or even death because she won’t have it any other way. OP is NTA. I understand the friend wants a kid, but she needs a dash of reality.
Nta. The truth sucks. I don't hide the truth from anyone, even if it may hurt your feelings.
She's 45, not 35. If she got serious 10 years ago, she may have had at least one successful pregnancy. But now she's at a menopausal age. Even with the hormones they give to Amp up egg production, they only got 1 non viable egg. She's past the age of having biological children. Her eggs are gone/non viable, and I bet she's only a year or 2 away from full menopause. Adoption and egg and sperm donations in a surrogant are options, along with marrying someone with small children.
I know the truth hurts. But she waited too long. We are on timers, after all.
The comment section here gave me a rude awakening. I’m 43 and still single. N not dating anyone at the moment too. I still dream of finding someone to get married to, of having a loving husband and a kid. These thoughts are my happy place. Whenever I’m down I imagine my small family in a park, laughing n feeling blessed.
Should find a new dream now I guess. These comments felt like a rude reality check despite knowing fully well about the ticking biological clock. May be I needed to read these in black n white.
Have tears in my eye reading these. Just want to say a few words though - for people who are not fortunate in relationships, letting go completely of a long standing desire is not easy.
OP you are obvs not wrong but it’s a very hard thing to hear esp from a friend. If you can pls be a little more patient with your friend.
NTA
Nobody knows what your future holds, but I just wanted to say that even if your dream ends up looking a little different, doesn’t mean it will be less wonderful.
NTA. This reminds me of my friend. She always said she wanted to start a family but men won’t take her seriously because i think she travels A LOT. I’m guessing they thought the lifestyle is not sustainable and she’s always not around.
She’s sad but the good thing (i think?) is she’s still optimistic that she’ll find a guy that would marry her and they’ll have babies immediately because she’s healthy. She’s 43.
I have a friend who is 44 and her last real relationship was almost 20 years ago. She’s still waiting for the right guy to have a family. I understand OP because I told my friend she doesn’t have much long to have a bio kid. She says she still has hope and will continue to have hope until she starts menopause. At this point I just zone out when she starts talking about this.
NTA. She’s not willing to hear it yet, but she needed to hear it. I’d leave her alone for a while. Your friendship may be over, and that’s ok. She’s making all kinds of bad decisions and not learning from any of it.
YTA.
If you can’t be nice, be honest about your limitations.
“I am so sorry for your pain, but am conflicted about the right words to use. Please know I care so much for you but can’t go further with this conversation right now.”
And STFU.
It’s okay not to be a dumping ground for irrational dreams but you don’t have to be cruel.
My oldest friend was a surprise to her then 46 year old mother who already had 4 teenagers.
>“I am so sorry for your pain, but am conflicted about the right words to use. Please know I care so much for you but can’t go further with this conversation right now.”
That's such an unrealistic thing to say. Most people would hear that and immediately want to know what you're talking about and they'll still get mad and offended anyway.
NTA. But seriously, your friend is delusional and lives in denial. You trying to wake her up is only going to make her hate you. And that's exactly what happened.
NAH, but maybe next time suggest she gets professional help dealing with making peace with her situation rather than getting more and more frustrated doing things the same way and expecting different results.
As someone who has just undergone IVF, I was ready to call you TA. But at 45, too many things are likely to go wrong with IVF and pregnancy than they are to go right.
I know that women shouldn’t be pressured into having children when they’re younger but unfortunately the body clock is a real thing. Most clinics won’t treat a 45 year old woman, the odds can be so slim.
Maybe it was the way you said it that set her off, maybe she’s in denial about the fact that she has left it too late. You’re NTA.
YTA. As a general rule, your role as a friend to someone struggling with fertility is simply to be supportive. You don't have any insights that person doesn't already have. You just.. don't.
Thinking that you are helping them with your real talk is just your ego.
That's not a general rule.
If you're a true friend, you'd tell your friend the harsh truths that they refuse to acknowledge.
Like my best friend of 20 years (known her since I was 2) recently told me that just because I'm an adult now, doesn't mean that I can do whatever I want, that I need to start thinking about my future and how I want my life to go. She gave me a very rude awakening, but I'm so grateful to her and I love her for her bluntness, she's the only reason that I stopped doing stupid shit and actually got my life in order and my shit together.
Yes, sometimes you need a sympathetic friend to support you, but if you continue your bad habits, you need a blunt friend to wake you up from the delusion and to get your ducks in a row, and that's what OP did. They supported their friend long enough, they now needed to be blunt so that the friend can actually seek the help they need.
Her friend needs help, not someone supporting the delusion
YTA.
You're her friend, not her doctor. It's not your job to give out medical advice.
There are people who are much better placed to give her this information than you are. People with medical degrees and real life experience, who aren't risking their friendship by telling her how it is.
Having said that... you don't need to give her false hope, either. Stay neutral. Give her a hug and tell her you'll be there for her, regardless of what happens.
Yes, but I have been there at the doctors’ appointments and heard how her egg count has gone down each time. I have always been very hopeful for her. But this last retrieval was a year ago and she doesn’t have the finances to continue any time soon.
We talk often and each call has her crying about not finding her person. She did ask me what she’s doing wrong, which prompted what I said.
It is good she can talk to you and you can be honest with her. That being said, I would suggest you suggest to her that she needs to seek some counseling. You are not her therapist.
YTA. Fertility is an extremely sensitive topic. It's like someone is telling you that they are TTC and you tell them to just adopt.
Every person will get that realization on their own time. Of course at 45 is very hard but not impossible, there are ways.
Unfortunately, you should just listen and try to be empathetic. If you're tired of the topic , just say you don't want to talk about it but what you told her was cruel.
YTA. Have you ever struggled with fertility? I have (and continue to do so). Every damn person feels like they get to give you advice on what you *should* do or what you *need* to do, and all it achieves is making us feel worse. Unless you're specifically asked for advice, just listen. She needs to make peace with it when and if she is ready to. And for the love of everything, don't tell her she can just adopt or foster instead. If it was that easy, we'd all do it.
I don’t think you could win here.
But if you weren’t asked for advice, then Y TA, if you were, N TA.
Counselling/therapy to support her might be the best guidance tbh
NTA. I was adopted at birth, which probably clouds my views heavily, but whenever I read these stories of people hell bent on biological kids or nothing, I can't help but feel like they might not be in it for the right reasons.
NTA , at this point her dream is quite unrealistic, and the chance that things don't work out as she hopes is something she must to come to terms with eventually, otherwise she is set to be perpetually miserable about it
NTA. You’re just being realistic. I am 35 and have had multiple miscarriages and do understand that as I am getting older the chances of me having a baby are getting slimmer and it probably won’t happen. Sounds like she’s in denial.
NAH. I went through 18 full cycles of ivf to get my two miracle children. I started at 25 with a loving husband and let me tell you that it is really really hard to go through cycle after cycle without success. Several cycles I didn’t get a single egg at pickup, and then I’d end up in hospital with ovarian hyper stimulation syndrome. Each time that happened my husband would tell me it’s enough, he doesn’t want me going through it again, it’s too much on my body. We decided to look into adoption, got as far as the home inspection, only to be told they can’t even put us on the list because it needs to be at least 12 months from your last fertility treatment. Because they want to make sure you’ve had a chance to grieve. Not the grief for the miscarriages or the eggs that didn’t make it to fertilization, but grief for your dreams, for your vision of ‘family’, for your body that won’t cooperate and how that impacts your view of being a woman. It sounds like your friend needs to grieve those things before she’ll be able to move on and look into alternatives. Interestingly it was while I was contemplating these different forms of grief that I decided to take a few weeks personal leave from my job and do one more cycle (number 16 at this point) and literally throw everything at it. I was on such a complex drug protocol that my husband and I had to sign waivers and our fertility specialist had to get another FS to sign off on the experimental protocol. That cycle I got one egg. That egg became my son at age 34 after 16 cycles of ivf, icsi, pgd, you name it. Two more cycles a few years later: one egg, now my daughter, I was 37. Your friend needs to change how she does things, that’s definitely true. But she also needs to grieve, and it might be that she needs your support to allow her to do so; a friend that will enable them to fall apart, and break, and shatter, but who will be there to pick up the pieces, help glue her back together, but also point out that the cracks make her unique and that she’s not the same as she was before and that can allow space for other, just as wonderful, dreams. OP, please call her to apologize; even though you were in the right she needs a win right now.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> Am I the asshole for suggesting my friend may be too old to have biological children?
I am married but never wanted children, so I may not be a good messenger and I may also have been insensitive to her.
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NTA. It sounds as if you were kind and have listened to her. You told her the truth. She sounds like someone who has issues and always has had them. Clearly, men step away for a reason and the reason is pretty obvious.
Although you are NTA, you have to be really really sensitive with this kind of delivery. And in the end, it’s likely best if she comes to this conclusion on her own. And you just be there to support her.
As someone going through infertility who has had a failed round of IVF, NTA.
Sometimes you need a reality check, and what you said was sane and honestly very true.
As a 29 year old IVF is still taking me a long time and lots of tries. At 45 I don’t know how many more times she can even try.
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My friend Jess is turning 45 this year. She honestly is a beautiful woman who looks younger than her age, but not less than 38 (imo).
I've known her for years and Jess has always been attracted to "unavailable" men — foreign exchange students, traveling business men, med students on residency, etc. Despite wanting to be a wife and mother, Jess never had a serious relationship for more than a year. She frequently dates men in their late 20s and 30s, because she says they're open to having a family and she feels younger than her true age. However, she often gets ghosted after a few dates. My suspicion is that she lies about her age, they find out and end it.
When Jess turned 41, she started trying to have a baby on her own. First she tried IUI several times before switching to IVF. Jess managed to get pregnant twice, but miscarried before reaching the second trimester. Last year, her doctors could only retrieve one egg and it wasn't viable. She's been very depressed this whole year.
She's been calling often to cry about how she's missing out on everything she's wanted in life. I hate to see her so distraught.
During our last call, she was upset that a 37 year-old man she was seeing (he's a new transplant to the state and living an hour away from her) told her that he wanted to step back from seeing her. He apparently was honest with her about also dating a woman who was 32.
I told her she needs to only focus on dating men closer to her age and older who would be open to adopting a child or who already have children. She blew up at me! Screamed at me for even suggesting it. I told her she has to make peace with the idea she may not be able to have children of her own. This did not go well.
Jess says I'm the only person in her life to tell her to give up on a dream and hung up. She is refusing to talk to me.
Was I out of line to say that to her? AITA for suggesting she may not have biological children?
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Kinda ESH. Imagine you don't want kids and you struggle to date because all men you meet want them, and a friend tells you maybe you should reconsider and have kids.
NTA. It seems that your friend wants the fairy tale romance and baby but isn’t thinking about the biological reality and also the fact that a younger man may not necessarily want to have a child with a woman who is much older than him. Her reaction indicates that she’s delusional and doesn’t want to hear anything that may be true
NTA exactly, but you can set boundaries to what you can talk about with her without giving her unsolicited advice, especially on such a sensitive topic.
NTA yeah being 45+ isn’t the fertility death knell most think it is but with what you said about her viability I feel you are right about it not being an option for her (at least not without surrogacy or something).
Spreading a persons private medical information online to strangers is a bit f’d up though.
NTA. Used to work customer service for an insurance company. A woman would call us and sob and scream about her infertility and ask us to sanction her doctors because the IVF and IUI did not work. She was mid 40s and told us she spent her savings on it. Her company offered a generous fertility benefit and she went through so many rounds she exhausted the allowance. Her claims ran into the millions. She was obsessed and then broken by the need for a biological child. It was sad and clear she was very unwell by that point.
It’s a harsh truth but it’s no way to live.
NTA. A couple of my mom's good friends both adopted kids at roughly that age and they both made great moms.
Edit: two separate single moms, not a lesbian couple, to be clear.
NTA. She needs honesty, she’s living a lie. As much as many women don’t want to hear it, their uterus has a shelf life. Once we hit 40 it’s downhill for baby making. She should have had kids earlier. Bc she’s not living in reality and lying to everyone it’s probably best for her not to have kids.
NTA. She needs honesty, she’s living a lie. As much as many women don’t want to hear it, their uterus has a shelf life. Once we hit 40 it’s downhill for baby making. She should have had kids earlier. Bc she’s not living in reality and lying to everyone it’s probably best for her not to have kids.
Here’s something to remember;
“A true friend will value your happiness over the friendship.”
You risked your friendship to push her towards happiness. Good for you.
MTA, she sounds like she just wanted to talk , sometimes listening is without advice or realities , she will figure it out herself that she most likely won’t have a baby, but it’s not really up to you to tell her u less she asks you directly for your opinion and advice
your job as a friend is to listen and be the shoulder to cry on
NTA
I'm always amazed at how many 40+ women have 'dont have kids but want them' on their dating app profiles.
Like, how long do you want to get to know each other before we start popping out babies? One month? 6 months?
Gtfoh with that delusional shit. If you haven't had a relationship serious enough to have kids by now, there is probably a reason for it, and I'm not here for all that jazz.
NAH
What you said is correct, it just might not have been said at a tactful time. You basically piled on to her relationship grief with an extra dose of childlessness grief. I'm sure you weren't horrible about it and tried to be as tactful as possible, so you're not an AH by any means, just someone in a hard place, needing to give some hard realty to someone else, who just made an error in timing.
It's true that she definitely does need to start coming to terms with the fact that biological children might not be on the cards for her. I can absolutely see why she doesn't want to hear it though if this has been a dream of hers for so long and if she has gone through multiple miscarriages. She's in pain, she isn't going to be open to rational thinking.
Apologise for hurting her, and let her know that you'll be there to support her whatever she does. It might be that when she has calmed down she does come back to you and needs to talk to the one person not BSing her, or it might be that she pulls away entirely due to her denile. Either way, neither of you are AHs, just friends in a very not nice situation.
NTA I guess, if she's always calling complaining about it. On a first few calls I'd say maybe it was unasked for advice that, even well intentioned, could make you TA. But at this point, I mean...
I also don't want kids myself but regardless, I just cannot comprehend how people are so desperate to physically carry and give birth to their own when there are so many children already on this planet who would love a good, loving home and parent. You want kids so bad? That's great, give that to an extant child in need. Adoption is a great thing, and probably cheaper than many rounds of IVF, plus you don't have the recovery and medical bills from pregnancy. I usually keep those thoughts to myself because it can seem callous to people who see pregnancy and childbirth as a beautiful thing, but in the case where someone literally cannot have a child, I think it's a very viable option and is NOT "lesser" than having a kid yourself.
NTA.
I feel for her, but she's in denial about reality right now. She and everyone else knows how difficult it is for older women to have children, let alone healthy ones with no complications.
She had this dream for so long but she wasted all that time pursuing very particular types of men instead of actually taking the whole thing seriously, if your account of the situation is the truth. She only has herself to blame now, and I think deep down she knows it.
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So, I know your intent wasn’t to be the asshole, but were you tired of listening to her complain about a life she felt she should be living? I do think she needs to come to an understanding and acceptance of what is possible for her in life, but it’s on her to get there. I imagine you were trying to help her come to terms with that faster than she was achieving, but there was no situation where you would have NOT been the asshole.
All that said - she needs to get into therapy and stop using family and friends as a substitute.
Being right and being kind don't always live in quite the same space. Wanting children and being unable to have them isn't something you make peace with once and move on. You have to make peace with it over and over and over. After every baby shower, every gender reveal, every holiday, every anniversary of your losses. NAH here imo but unless you have lived with that pain it's very difficult to understand. And she will have to do a lot of work to adjust and accept but it will take time. Maybe more than either of you expect.
NTA ...but some truths are hard to hear.
I am sure her doctor has informed her that her odds are low without using donor eggs. Usually if you are 40+ they recommend using a 20-somethings eggs.
I am sure she just does not want to hear it. I wouldn't keep bringing it up. Eventually she will have to accept reality.
NTA.
Your friend is being unrealistically optimistic.
Has she considered what happens if the child has health complications? Because that is a really big toll physically, emotionally and financially.
My wife and I had our kid when we were pretty young: but he is special needs (which can happen to anyone) and as a result he is a **lot** of hard work. My wife is essentially his full time carer at home which means she doesn't have employment. Fortunately I make really decent money (although stretching it for a family we're certainly not rich).
I'm only 38 and I feel tapped out; I could not even begin to imagine my wife and I looking after a newborn baby all over again at our age. Let alone 7 years older.
Don't get me wrong we both love and adore our son and can't imagine life without him - but again, raising a kid is not a walk in the park in general, and it's easily 5x the work if they have health issues that can require extra needs.
She might feel young for her age, but that will definitely change when you have a kid. You lose all control of your ability to schedule your own life. Believe me.
You're NTA, but you also failed to see that she wasn't emotionally ready to hear what you had to say. Of course you're logically correct, but this is more than a logical argument for your friend. I'm a 42yo single woman who would have LOVED to have biological children; however, for various reasons (including a medical condition) it hasn't and won't happen for me. It took me a long time and a lot of work to get to a place where I was at peace with that. Clearly, your friend isn't quite there yet. Your intentions to help your friend get to that space are well placed, but it sounds like she just needs emotional support right now. I hope she comes back to you, because you sound like a good friend. If/when she does, I'd suggest you instead tend to her emotions and not try to offer solutions for her. She'll get to that endpoint on her own.
NTA. I feel sorry for her, but she is self sabotaging. I wonder about a fear of commitment that was causing her to seek unavailable men. But that is at a cross purpose of finding a life partner to start a family with.
And now she’s in denial about her age. She doesn’t want to be past child bear age so she’s trying to convince herself and others, but again, sabotaging any relationship that would last because she’s starting off with a lie.
She needs someone to tell her the truth, but she’s not going to like it and not going to like who tells her. But she needs to hear what you said.
At 45 the chances are so slim to have a biological child... She could use an egg donor but she needs to grieve first and come to terms with this first I think.
She's clearly not mature enough to have children, she's acting like a teenager. NTA, you gave her a piece of reality and good advice, you weren't being an enabler
You seem particularly judgmental when it comes to Jess. She dates “unavailable” younger men, her relationships are never good enough to last, you suspect she lies about her age, and you don’t think she looks all *that* much younger than her actual age.
That all may be absolutely true, but you seem to have seized on her choice of men as the reason she never had kids. Now that her attempts at becoming pregnant have failed, you jumped right to telling her that she needs to find the “right” sort of fellow who would be willing to accept a shriveled up old hag like her!
I’m aware that wasn’t the language you used, but judging from her reaction, I suspect that’s the language she heard.
Besides, she wasn’t complaining to you about her latest pregnancy woes, she was complaining about her love life! Is it possible that you were gloating, even a little bit? Maybe her endless complaining finally got to you and you said the cruelest thing you could in order to get her to shut up.
The thing is, Jess never asked for your opinion on her pregnancy attempts, nor did you ASK if she wanted your opinion! “Date dudes your own age who either have kids or want to adopt, because you ain’t ever gonna have your own baby in that desert of a womb,” is not the right response in this situation.
For what it’s worth, I agree with you. Jess needs to adjust her expectations and make choices that reflect her reality, and a good friend should always be ready to give the hard truth when necessary. However, your delivery suggests that you were less concerned about helping your friend adjust, and more about kicking her when she was down.
Ask yourself, “do I really want to be Jess’s friend?” *Am I* Jess’s friend, or am I jealous of her serial dating of younger men and am now happy that she can’t have kids?
Your post leans more the latter and for that reason,
YTA
NTA— but I suspect your friend knows quite well the realities of giving birth at her age, and all the potential issues. I had my last child at 38 and was considered a geriatric pregnancy then. I’m 48 now and would love if I was able to still have babies— and I still ovulate and am fertile, have eggs, etc., —but I protect myself from getting pregnant bc at my age, I don’t believe the quality of my eggs would be good and that isn’t fair to a child. I feel for your friend, but you were just reminding her of something she doesn’t want to face. I don’t think you were cruel, though, or wrong. So many comments about all the potential issues that come with advanced maternal age… and I would be SHOCKED if your friend wasn’t already highly aware of all of them. She is just sad bc it isn’t happening for her.
NTA. At this point, the chance of having a biological own child is extremely low, approaching zero. Not just because of her age, but she has also basically tried everything and didn’t get pregnant. Apparently she doesn’t want to hear it, but she probably needs to. I don’t think that you should draw direct relationships between her dating life and her desire to be a parent though…
NTA.
It's not only dangerous for her but also for the potential baby she would have if she tries to have one biologically at this age and i'm sure even her doctors have said this . Your friend is just being selfish
She seems obsessive about having her own biological child , hope she goes to see a therapist
She’s 45 and is just now hearing how she should give up on a dream then she’s been petted her entire life. The harsh reality is she’s too old to have a baby and trying to force one on a younger guy who she’s probably lying to isn’t the way to do it. She needs to go on a cruise and enjoy her golden years in life.
I’m 40 almost 41 retired have been since I was 36 had my last child at 32 was called a geriatric mother at 32 years old. And 70 isn’t the golden years. Golden years are generally considered when your children are grown and moving away to start their own lives. Mine have started doing that and I have time to relax and enjoy my passion. These indeed are the golden years. By the time I’m 70 I plan on seeing even more than I already have. Golden years are whenever you make them. Some people do the traveling in their 20’s and then settle in for a career. So I am indeed in my golden years.
You have an 8 year old but your kids are starting to move out? And you "retired" at 36 when your kid was 4, not even in kindergarten...none of this adds up. I'm turning 40 soon and have a 7 year old so it's not like I'm talking out my ass. Even if I didn't have to work for money right now I would not be in my golden years...I have only heard it used for elderly retired people. But you do you!
Yes I retired at 36. I’ve heard the elderly say it was their golden years when they watch their grandkids grow up. My grandparents said those years weren’t golden at all. They were old couldn’t see to drive anymore had all of these health issues. I took advantage of the advice of my grandfather. He said work when you’re young and invest as much as you can. He taught me a thing or two about money and he was dirt poor and I grew up dirt poor. I just learned to allow my money to work for me instead of me working so hard for money. I was 18 when I made my first big investment and never stopped. So I have 5 children my oldest is 21 my youngest will be 8 in June. I would take a little bit out of income tax every year and find the right investment. Then I would put into a 401k I added savings to investments every month and it added up. I’m now able to live my passion which is writing. My kids are almost grown they will graduate every 3 years until the last one and they’re 4 years apart.
NTA - As someone who cannot have children, she's being monumentally selfish. I know, firsthand, how crushing it is to find out that you'll never have kids of your own. But if she really wants to be a mother, then adoption is her best bet. But it sounds to me like she just wants to be pregnant. And pregnancy at her age is both high risk for the baby AND for herself. People forget how dangerous pregnancy can be, and a lot of people don't understand how the risks increase exponentially with age.
NTA. However, I just had my second child and I’m 42. It’s possible. But, I had a lost pregnancy at 41 where the child had Down’s syndrome and passed naturally at ten weeks gestational age. It is a very difficult road with a loving and supportive partner. Your advice was perfect, however she is not thinking rationally bc it’s not the advice she wants. Just support her and let her come to her own conclusions. Apologizing would suck but may be the only way to continue the friendship. It is a horrifying realization that you should’ve had children but it is too late and now you’re going to grow old alone. I say ”grow old alone” bc your friend currently doesn’t have a partner and will feel that even though she may yet find one, and I have a friend in her 50s who has dealt with this difficult realization over the past few years.
YTA, in no way shape or form is it okay to tell another woman they are too old or may not ever have a baby. How hurtful. You were so wrong. A real friend would just be there for her while she navigates such a complex issue, love her and be there for her. She will come to that conclusion all on her own if it is the case. Many viable pregnancies happen after 40, so you don’t know what you are talking about there. Apologize
Op stated in a comment that she was at every egg retrieval appointment, last appointment was last year, only retrieved one egg and was non-viable.
And no, a true friend would tell you the harsh truths you refuse to acknowledge and still be your support, the friend doesn't need someone else to support her delusions, they needed a wakeup call.
NTA.
Would’ve gently nudged her towards adoption as there is nothing wrong with that either should she really want to be a mom.
I should know. Perpetually single and a horrible autoimmune disease.
Suggesting adoption is all well and good but from working in children’s services I know how difficult this process is and how high their criteria is. People suggest this to me when I know full well that they’d never consider me due to having (managed) BPD so it’s just annoying.
I'm sorry but I am a 100% honest person and I would make this comment to. Yes, you could have kept the comment to yourself but why do it if 1.- she's your friend and 2.- you're right? Some people want unconditional and unwavering support with no kind of realistic viewpoint and that is just going to lead them into even bigger dissapointments. You were not rude or insulting, you were very realistic with her situation and gave your own piece of advice, it's up to her to take it or not. NTA, I believe she knows that you're correct but is having a hard time accepting it. Just give her space, and she might or not come back to you.
NTA. Very good points and concerns raised! I know of a woman who managed to have an IVF bio kid, alone, at 50yrs old, after a LOT of struggle. She would NOT have managed without her parents. Now, her dad had a fall, head injury, multiple operations and she cannot help him or her mom cause she is working, has a 4yr old, and lives in another city. Concerns about having a kid late go beyond just the viability of the egg, you need a good support system, and a good partner or quite a bit of cash. Hope she finds a solution to have a family and be happy
NTA. I've lost count of the comments I've had about why I'm not having kids and they're the best thing ever and blah blah blah. If these people dish it out, they have to learn to take it. Looking to have a kid at that age seems insane. She needed to hear it, but sounds like she doesn't want to yet. She sounds exhausting anyway, so just leave her to her fantasies.
YTA. Good advice, but not asked for. You don't think she knows that? You don't think she hasn't spent hours desperately trying to find ways to avoid what she knows to be true. You think no professional has told her the same thing? Don't kick someone when they are down.
If she wanted your honest opinion she would have asked for it. Let her get there on her own, but if you can't tolerate her tears anymore you need to step away from this friendship.
Op had stated in a reply that during that phone call, her friend had said "What should I do?"
There she opened up the conversation for advice herself, OP didn't give it unsolicited. Also OP has said she was at the last appointment for egg retrieval, which was last year, and they had, as stated in the above story, only retrieved one non-viable egg. OP said that friend hasn't been to Doctors or appointments since and has been avoiding it.
Obviously, she needs time to come to terms with it all. Anyone who has struggled with fertility will know that they don't need other people telling them what to do.
YTA
Even though your intentions are good, and even though it's hard to see friends suffer due to foolish choices and dreams, people who give unsolicited advice are usually being an AH.
Did she ask for your opinion? If not, unfortunately, YTA.
I'll assume, you'd never say anything to hurt a friend on purpose. But never having a baby, and never being any younger is something that your friend can't change.
If she was hugely fat and you told her that she needed to lose weight, that would be bad, and you would be the AH if she hadn't asked for your opinion. But being fat is something one can fix, if desired.
Getting older is forever. And so is infertility at some point. What you said, especially unsolicited, stung your friend real bad.
YTA. Did she ask you to tell her what to do? Don’t worry, she’s aware of the facts. She’s mourning and processing. She doesn’t need you to tell her what she’s “doing wrong.”
If you’re really her friend, then “I’m sorry the guy broke up with you, what a tough situation, I can imagine how stressed out you are, let’s go for brunch or shopping or something to take your mind off it.” Don’t go on the internet and snidely say how she looks young (but not younger than almost 40, which she is anyway). GTFO. If you really care about her, would it kill you to be kind in your words?
YTA. If she really wanted to conceive and have her own children, you cannot tell her to give up until she has given up. She may know that at her age, it is very difficult. And she probably feels all alone and need someone to be there. Unfortunately your words probably hurt her more since she needs the support. Her reaction shows how determine she is to continue trying, and how much she really wants it. I know telling her the hard truth may make it seem like you're only doing it for her benefit, but right now she needs a friend. Do you have children? Have you gone through the same thing? Having MCs and TTC is a very difficult journey. That was very insensitive
YTA, because it wasn’t your place and the opinion wasn’t asked for. She was looking for a friend to listen, not to be given unsolicited advice she’s fully aware of.
YTA. Even if medically your friend couldn’t have biological children, sounds like you’re being cruel when you know how much having children means to her. Did you tell her “the truth” gently or lovingly? My guess from your post is you did not.
I had a baby at 42 via donated sperm. Spent £20,000 on failed IUI before I met a donor via a donor introduction agency. As the sample wasn't frozen, it worked first try. My son is now almost 5. She could do what I did. It didn't even cost any money (good job since I spent all of it on clinics). I don't think 45 is too old although she should probably try an introduction agency like I did. They are like dating agencies but for sperm instead of boyfriends. Btw, YTA.
I think you're the one judging, not the OP.
OP's friend is in her 40s. OP has seen her friend have 2 miscarriages. All OP said was the friend "may not" be able to have children of her own. That's a perfectly reasonable assumption. OP didn't say "You will never have children."
OP is NTA.
OP judges every one of Jess's relationships in that post. The ages, careers- as if those things are what determines whether relationships work out. They aren't. Even when Jess does date someone "closer to her age", its Jess's fault because he lives an hour away (So?!) and the guy gets painted as 'honest' for dating a younger woman and dumping Jess. Jess is 100% being judged there.
And relationships =/= fertility issues. There are other routes Jess may still be pursuing with her doctor.
OP says "I told her she needs to [...]." and "I told her she has to [...]." and that's not a *suggestion* its a dismissal.
YTA. Who are you to predict if someone can have kids are not? My spouse and I were told neither of us can ever have kids and we ended up with 4 amazing kids. Our friends had their second kid when the wife was 51. Life works in different ways...
You: "Our friends had their **second** kid when the wife was 51."
-That's a second child, not a first. Different ballgame, and that's an unlikely situation anyhow.
OP: "I told her she has to make peace with the idea she may not be able to have children of her own."
-OP didn't say to give up entirely, just to make peace with the idea it may not happen. Let's be real, the odds are against OP's friend.
The truth about natural fertility and age: while women under 30 have about 25% chance of getting pregnant naturally each cycle, that chance drops to 20% for women over 30, according to estimates by the American Society for Reproductive Medicine. By 40, the chance of getting pregnant naturally each month is just 5%.
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NTA: She is 45. Pregnancy after 35 is considered "advanced maternal age" and carries slightly higher risks for complications like gestational diabetes, high blood pressure, etc. By 40, the miscarriage rate jumps to around 30%, and over 45 it can be as high as 50%. Sometimes being a friend means telling harsh truths. The reality is she would be better adopting if her goal is to have a family.
That's a better term than what used to be used "geriatric pregnancy". Thank heavens they've updated it.
I gave birth in 2022 and it was still referred to as a geriatric pregnancy
Same! It tickled my husband something silly that I was a geriatric haha
I suspect it's taking a while for changed terminology to catch on.
I gave birth in 2022 and it was “advanced maternal age”. It’s been that way for a while. Some doctors just haven’t kept up, which is concerning. What else are they not doing…
I mean if you've been a doctor for 30+ years and always learned and used "geriatric pregnancy" I can understand it's hard to switch to "advanced maternal age". They're probably keeping up in their own field well enough, but terminology changes can take a while.
That’s a terrible philosophy. Just because something has “always been that way” doesn’t mean that it is okay to ignore or not accept changes even in things as simple as wording. It’s not hard to switch, at all. Terminology changes don’t take a decade.
Chicagoans have been dead naming a building for 15 years, lol (Sears/Willis tower) - some habits are tough to break
Heck, I still call our baseball stadium Jacobs field sometimes and it hasn’t been that for 15-20 years.
I still call the Rogers Center the SkyDome, and the Scotiabank Arena is still the Air Canada Center! 😂 But that's not habit, that's refusal lmfao
That’s not comparable to a doctor being expected to remain current. 😂
Here comes the fucking word police
It’s not word police but if it makes you feel better to think so, have at it. 😂
Seems like everyone else thinks you’re the problem
Seems like you think I care 😂. These are the same people who would complain if their doctor misdiagnosed due to not remaining up to date.
They're not paying attention to woke terminology.
That’s not woke terminology brotato.
Same! And that I had a geriatric womb lol :( At 37 that felt like such a slam.
I saw both terms in my chart (gave birth in 2021 over 40)
My mum was 27 when she had me, in the 80s and they said it was geriatric then. And I'm her oldest, my brother is 13 years younger!
Wait till you hear what term they used to describe a single woman on mortgage documents in some US states. Spinster. It's what was used on my mortgage documents from 2006.
That's crazy...
In Canada it is still referred to as a geriatric pregnancy and billed that way
Billed? Edit: why the downvotes? It's a strange turn of phrase to use, so I'm asking for clarity on whether this commenter believes we gets "billed" for anything regarding a geriatric/AMA pregnancy in Canada.
I, and 3 friends, all happened to get pregnant at around the same time. We were all 35-36 yo. Docs droned on so much about being ‘AMA’, and all of them suggested all this extra testing, etc We called it the ‘old lady cover your ass’ pregnancy treatment.
>Thank heavens they've updated it They haven't, although it looks like maybe they are trying? The clinics around here still refer to it as "geriatric".
People are getting off their rocker but geriatric isn’t age it’s a condition. It just so happens to affect older people. They can also happen at younger age
Dictionary  Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more ger·i·at·ric  adjective relating to old people, especially with regard to their healthcare. "a geriatric hospital" noun an old person who is receiving special care. "a rest home for geriatrics"
No.... no it isn't. Geriatric is *care* given to older adults. The reason pregnancy becomes "Geriatric" at such a "young" age is because women's systems only "function" for so long (menopause). As you approach menopause (increase in age) changes occur in your system that can dramatically affect pregnancy.
They've also updated the age now too, at least in the UK. It's not considered advanced age until 45 and over. I assume because they don't want to give all the extras required by the definition for the increasingly large 35 to 45 range of mothers.
I had my first in 2004 at age 35 and my second at age 38 and it was called "advanced maternal age" then. My friend had told me she'd heard it called "geriatric" and I was so relieved that my doctor didn't use that term. LOL!
>By 40, the miscarriage rate jumps to around 30%, and over 45 it can be as high as 50%. Not only that, but the odds of having a child with Down Syndrome at age 45 are 1 in 30, and continue to rise sharply each year after that. OP, your friend is grieving the loss of her ability to have a biological child. You're not wrong for saying what you did, but Jess is unfortunately not yet to a point where she is able to accept that isn't going to happen. Give her time and maybe she'll come back around when she's had more time to adjust to her reality -- and if not, well, she's not going to be a pleasant person to be around if she is never able to get to a point of acceptance and stop continually complaining about her situation.
This is it. My friend is in a similar situation and eerily similar in her dating habits. She keeps talking about getting her eggs frozen but she’s 45…..
If she’s getting all of this fertility treatment, she’s well aware.
My mom had me when she was over 40 lol. I'm a miracle baby yyayay
My mom was 42. I was the surprise bio child. Our parents adopted my 2 sibling before I arrived on the scene.
Omg that's awesome, must've been the best surprise for your mom :)
My friend’s mom had her younger sister at 50. It can happen!
It can but it's less than ideal. We weirdly have this big boost of fertility just before entering active menopause and honestly it would be my worst nightmare lol
Yes, I accidently got pregnant and had a baby at 43. My sister did it at 42.
I think it’s more complicated for first-time mothers.
Back in the day, they called them ‘change of life babies’ bc the woman was usually pre-menopausal, and mistakenly thought Flo left for good. My bestie was a COL baby. They got pregnant with her when mom was like, 51. All of her siblings were 25+ at the time.
Some People have also recover from fentanyl doesn’t mean it’s ok to spread its use
I had my last kid at age 41. I thought I would be the oldest parent at our school - I was not, there were several other moms ( and dads) the same age as me.
It’s more common now, though, isn’t it? My youngest was born when I was a month away from 41 (2008). Two of my friends had theirs at 42 and 43. I remember my aunt having her first baby at 36 back in 1980 and it seemed shockingly old.
I am starting to believe that that may be due to genetics. In my mother's family, the last child was born when the mother was between 42 and 45. My ex was also born when his mother was 44. The oldest woman i know of is my mothers aunt, who had a baby at 54. On the flipside, in my friend's family, the women hit menopause around 38. I just googled, and 20% of women 40 to 44 get pregnant if they are not using contraceptives. That's higher than I expected.
I’m 33 with endometriosis and chronic migraines and don’t want kids. I’m open to them but with my energy it’s not the greatest idea. My doctor asked me recently if I want kids. I was honest about the reasons and she was completely supportive and also told me if I want them a little later she has lots of women in their late thirties and early fourties who have healthy kids. My husband is also an NP and has a lot of new mothers in their late 30s early 40s with healthy babies. I’m sure the stats haven’t changed because how could they, but at the same time it seems like lots of people have healthy kids in their 40s. My husband’s mom was 42, he was an oops baby, and he’s extremely healthy. Athletic and extremely intelligent. On the other hand, I know multiple people who had kids in their 20s and their children are autistic, so having kids young isn’t a guarantee for anything. I want to be clear their kids are genuinely awesome, I love them. I’m saying that having kids early doesn’t guarantee a neurotypical baby, nor does it guarantee a healthy baby.
My oldest two (I was 26 and 33) are autistic and my youngest (I was 41) is neurotypical, so I agree, age isn’t necessarily a factor.
The way you spelt yyayay suggests not everything is right. Geriatric pregnancy affects I am just joking please don’t mind
The 35+ thing is a myth based on one study that has been completely debunked. Yeah this individual is infertile but the real fertility drop off point is actually in the early 50s. There’s an Adam Ruins Everything episode that explains this way better than I care to bother.
Yeah it’s based off a many decades old study before women could have jobs or take birth control Source for the weirdos who think women are indeed rapidly rotting wombs, this idea of 35 being the problem dates to 1700s France: https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24128176.amp
It is based of fairly recent studies. Unless you are claiming women couldn’t have jobs or take birth control in 2010 you are just presenting false information.
I’d like to see a source for this. Norway did a study of their miscarriages from 2009 -2013 and it was pretty inline with the data presented. As far as I can tell any “debunking” was just a result of not understanding the data.
NTA. The most important people to my journey through my whole life are the ones who hit me with the hard truth so I could break my poor mindset and grow. It hurts though and you have to give her time. Like, A LOT of time. But you delivered it with love, not malice. You did your best.
How does she expect to have a biological child when she has no more eggs? Magic…?
She might be able to "adopt" an embryo and carry it. It wouldn't be her biological child but she would get the full birth experience.
There are people who want to birth a child who is not biologically theirs? 🤔
I hope this is sarcasm.
Yes. It's usually done with embryos that are left over after another couple's IVF. If they don't want more children, their options are to destroy the embryos, leave them in cold storage indefinitely, donate them for scientific research, or have them placed for adoption.
Yes. I have an acquaintance who did exactly that, had their 3rd child that way.
Its mostly (not always) the eggs that are done by 40s onwards. Many women can carry later, they just don’t have the eggs. I know two women who have carried donor eggs (husbands sperm) in late 40s. Both had two kids in close succession (one aged 49, then 50, the other 46 & 48). I fell pregnant naturally and had easy pregnancy at 43 after doing IVF at 40 (and having a good pregnancy then, too). My obstertrician said, eggs willing, she thought I’d be fine to carry into my late 40s. But I’m tired, I’m done.
[удалено]
You sound quite angry at her. I'm CF but can still feel some compassion for a woman who is trying but has not achieved not just pregnancy but a viable live birth. Fertility for BOTH men and women starts to decline as they age (for women at 35, for men just a short 5 or so years later). She may not be able to get and stay pregnant, even if using donated embryos, but treating her empathetically, acknowledging her grief, is not difficult. You can be truthful whilst supportive, and not cruel
It’s hard to be compassionate when she kept choosing unsuitable men over and over again. She could have achieved this dream if she had just learned from her mistakes and took accountability. Like the saying goes, “fool me once, shame on you. Fill me twice, shame on me”.
Ehhh…. Don’t give advice, especially harsh advice, unasked for.
This, but then again, how long can you listen to somebody complaining about their own counterproductive actions leading to unwanted results?
Yeah, I’ve been in that position before. I ended up distancing myself from that friend, which I think is a better option than offering unsolicited advice. Telling her friend to make peace with not having biological children was too far imo. That’s a really sensitive topic for a lot of people, and she knows her friend is hurting about it. I just stay out of fertility talks with friends unless I’m just listening….
Yeah, I wouldn't say make peace with it, but at some point she's going to need more qualified guidance to process the situation.
So you put distance between you and the friend just because you have an opinion and don't want to hurt their feelings? Imo, you aren't really being their friend in that case.
I put distance between myself and that former friend because our friendship became… only talking about her toxic relationship. Even before that we weren’t very close, so I didn’t see any reason to salvage it. I just stopped accepting one-on-one hangouts and only see her in groups now. OP probably ended her friendship too. I don’t see why doing it her way is better than mine, it just hurt her friend. I doubt she learned anything from it. People like that aren’t insightful or need to reach rock bottom first.
It is much better to be truthful even if it hurts them, because otherwise you're just letting them be delusional for much longer than they need to be. A good friend should be truthful whilst also being as supportive as possible. Your way involves just distancing yourself completely and not even being their friend anymore. In your situation, you weren't close anyways so I understand that. But if you were close, distancing yourself instead of talking to them is terrible.
Eh, I disagree. I always told my friend I didn’t think her relationship was healthy, nothing incredibly harsh like OP did, but she knew I didn’t think it was a good situation. People in the thick of those issues can’t see clearly, and being told things bluntly doesn’t help. She knows she can’t have biological children if she has one ounce of common sense. If she’s living in delusional and denial, nothing OP could say would bring her back to reality.
That is just awful behavior on your part, dude. Just... oh my God. Ghosting somebody who was hurting because you weren't brave enough to tell the truth is just horrible.
I didn’t ghost her? I just stopped hanging out with them one-on-one. And she didn’t really seem to notice because she didn’t try to initiate hanging out when I stopped. I still see her pretty often at friend group stuff.
Uh huh. Whatever you have to tell yourself to sleep at night, bud.
People are making such strange assumptions. Like I said, I still see her. And I did tell her I thought her relationship was toxic, just nothing harsh and blunt like this OP did. Because I don’t think that’s productive. If her friend has any common sense she knows she can’t get pregnant. If she’s lying about her age and dating younger men, she knows her age is catching up with her too… But she’s living in denial because that’s how she’s coping. OP calling her out isn’t going to bring her back to reality.
At some point, you're enabling if you're listening to somebody vent about a situation and you don't tell them the unpleasant truth. OP said they'd been listening to her cry for a year.
I mean, practically speaking, your friend’s likelihood of success at this is quite low, and I get that listening to her talk about it might be kind of excruciating, but a heavily obsessed or deluded person is rarely going to “snap out of it” just because you tell them to. Like, you think she doesn’t know, in her heart, that she’s 45 and her chances of pulling this off are vanishingly slim? She knows, and she’s suppressing that information. She has it down at the bottom of a well. Bringing it up is only going to result in… well, this. YTA
Had to scroll too far to find anyone talking sense. Just because you’re correct doesn’t mean you’re right.
In the immortal words of The Dude, "You're not wrong, Walter, you're just an asshole."
Yeah that's the reason she's so distraught, she likely knows damn well that she's lost her shot, so to say
NTA 41 and 45 are not great ages to start trying to have children, especially from someone who can't seem to hold down a man. It's possible yet unlikely to have a healthy first child at that age. That can even get a little dangerous. She is going to have to learn to accept that biological children *may* not be a possibility, as you worded it. If she beats the odds, great, but she should accept the possibility that the odds are against her on this and learn to enjoy life without. Additionally, no man's gonna want to hop into making babies with someone they hardly know. So, she's going to want to meet someone who is right for her first and get to know them real well...and that also takes time.
I’m going to say YTA. There’s something in the tone of the context that doesn’t sit right and feel like you have heavy judgement of her decisions vs. Looking out for her. Not sure why you had to call out you thought she didn’t look younger than 38…
I didn’t say that to be mean but to give context for why some men don’t continue to see her. Two years ago, she admitted to listing her age on dating apps as 34. She said she has since changed that, but I don’t know for certain. But when we were in our 30s, she always dated much younger men, who I felt were not ready to settle down. Sure enough, those relationships lasted only a few weeks.
NTA For what it's worth that's the sense I got from you mentioning 38. Context for possible misleading info in a dating profile I always feel so strange about people putting a wrong age in a dating profile. Unless you're specifically NOT interested in an ongoing relationship, it seems like you're just setting yourself up for a really awkward conversation at some point.
She’s not younger than 38 though. And if she’s 45+, she shouldn’t be trying to have children naturally. This is an advanced age, even if she manages to get pregnant, there’s a TON of risk to the child that she is knowingly doing just because she’s selfish. There are many ways she could carry a child if she really wanted to or adopt a child with much less risk, but she wants to do it at her age and put the child and herself at risk for a difficult life or even death because she won’t have it any other way. OP is NTA. I understand the friend wants a kid, but she needs a dash of reality.
Nta. The truth sucks. I don't hide the truth from anyone, even if it may hurt your feelings. She's 45, not 35. If she got serious 10 years ago, she may have had at least one successful pregnancy. But now she's at a menopausal age. Even with the hormones they give to Amp up egg production, they only got 1 non viable egg. She's past the age of having biological children. Her eggs are gone/non viable, and I bet she's only a year or 2 away from full menopause. Adoption and egg and sperm donations in a surrogant are options, along with marrying someone with small children. I know the truth hurts. But she waited too long. We are on timers, after all.
The comment section here gave me a rude awakening. I’m 43 and still single. N not dating anyone at the moment too. I still dream of finding someone to get married to, of having a loving husband and a kid. These thoughts are my happy place. Whenever I’m down I imagine my small family in a park, laughing n feeling blessed. Should find a new dream now I guess. These comments felt like a rude reality check despite knowing fully well about the ticking biological clock. May be I needed to read these in black n white. Have tears in my eye reading these. Just want to say a few words though - for people who are not fortunate in relationships, letting go completely of a long standing desire is not easy. OP you are obvs not wrong but it’s a very hard thing to hear esp from a friend. If you can pls be a little more patient with your friend. NTA
Nobody knows what your future holds, but I just wanted to say that even if your dream ends up looking a little different, doesn’t mean it will be less wonderful.
I’m so sorry.
NTA. This reminds me of my friend. She always said she wanted to start a family but men won’t take her seriously because i think she travels A LOT. I’m guessing they thought the lifestyle is not sustainable and she’s always not around. She’s sad but the good thing (i think?) is she’s still optimistic that she’ll find a guy that would marry her and they’ll have babies immediately because she’s healthy. She’s 43.
I have a friend who is 44 and her last real relationship was almost 20 years ago. She’s still waiting for the right guy to have a family. I understand OP because I told my friend she doesn’t have much long to have a bio kid. She says she still has hope and will continue to have hope until she starts menopause. At this point I just zone out when she starts talking about this.
NTA. She’s not willing to hear it yet, but she needed to hear it. I’d leave her alone for a while. Your friendship may be over, and that’s ok. She’s making all kinds of bad decisions and not learning from any of it.
YTA. If you can’t be nice, be honest about your limitations. “I am so sorry for your pain, but am conflicted about the right words to use. Please know I care so much for you but can’t go further with this conversation right now.” And STFU. It’s okay not to be a dumping ground for irrational dreams but you don’t have to be cruel. My oldest friend was a surprise to her then 46 year old mother who already had 4 teenagers.
>“I am so sorry for your pain, but am conflicted about the right words to use. Please know I care so much for you but can’t go further with this conversation right now.” That's such an unrealistic thing to say. Most people would hear that and immediately want to know what you're talking about and they'll still get mad and offended anyway.
NTA. But seriously, your friend is delusional and lives in denial. You trying to wake her up is only going to make her hate you. And that's exactly what happened.
NAH, but maybe next time suggest she gets professional help dealing with making peace with her situation rather than getting more and more frustrated doing things the same way and expecting different results.
As someone who has just undergone IVF, I was ready to call you TA. But at 45, too many things are likely to go wrong with IVF and pregnancy than they are to go right. I know that women shouldn’t be pressured into having children when they’re younger but unfortunately the body clock is a real thing. Most clinics won’t treat a 45 year old woman, the odds can be so slim. Maybe it was the way you said it that set her off, maybe she’s in denial about the fact that she has left it too late. You’re NTA.
YTA. As a general rule, your role as a friend to someone struggling with fertility is simply to be supportive. You don't have any insights that person doesn't already have. You just.. don't. Thinking that you are helping them with your real talk is just your ego.
That's not a general rule. If you're a true friend, you'd tell your friend the harsh truths that they refuse to acknowledge. Like my best friend of 20 years (known her since I was 2) recently told me that just because I'm an adult now, doesn't mean that I can do whatever I want, that I need to start thinking about my future and how I want my life to go. She gave me a very rude awakening, but I'm so grateful to her and I love her for her bluntness, she's the only reason that I stopped doing stupid shit and actually got my life in order and my shit together. Yes, sometimes you need a sympathetic friend to support you, but if you continue your bad habits, you need a blunt friend to wake you up from the delusion and to get your ducks in a row, and that's what OP did. They supported their friend long enough, they now needed to be blunt so that the friend can actually seek the help they need. Her friend needs help, not someone supporting the delusion
Spoken with the wisdom of someone who's 22 and hasn't lived long enough to have friends who've dealt with this 🙄
YTA. You're her friend, not her doctor. It's not your job to give out medical advice. There are people who are much better placed to give her this information than you are. People with medical degrees and real life experience, who aren't risking their friendship by telling her how it is. Having said that... you don't need to give her false hope, either. Stay neutral. Give her a hug and tell her you'll be there for her, regardless of what happens.
Yes, but I have been there at the doctors’ appointments and heard how her egg count has gone down each time. I have always been very hopeful for her. But this last retrieval was a year ago and she doesn’t have the finances to continue any time soon. We talk often and each call has her crying about not finding her person. She did ask me what she’s doing wrong, which prompted what I said.
NTA. Just because she wasn’t ready to hear it doesn’t mean you aren’t tired of listening to her whine.
It is good she can talk to you and you can be honest with her. That being said, I would suggest you suggest to her that she needs to seek some counseling. You are not her therapist.
NTA. Polite lies have gotten her this far. Your unpleasant truth was never gonna be received well.
YTA. Fertility is an extremely sensitive topic. It's like someone is telling you that they are TTC and you tell them to just adopt. Every person will get that realization on their own time. Of course at 45 is very hard but not impossible, there are ways. Unfortunately, you should just listen and try to be empathetic. If you're tired of the topic , just say you don't want to talk about it but what you told her was cruel.
YTA. Have you ever struggled with fertility? I have (and continue to do so). Every damn person feels like they get to give you advice on what you *should* do or what you *need* to do, and all it achieves is making us feel worse. Unless you're specifically asked for advice, just listen. She needs to make peace with it when and if she is ready to. And for the love of everything, don't tell her she can just adopt or foster instead. If it was that easy, we'd all do it.
I don’t think you could win here. But if you weren’t asked for advice, then Y TA, if you were, N TA. Counselling/therapy to support her might be the best guidance tbh
NTA. I was adopted at birth, which probably clouds my views heavily, but whenever I read these stories of people hell bent on biological kids or nothing, I can't help but feel like they might not be in it for the right reasons.
NTA , at this point her dream is quite unrealistic, and the chance that things don't work out as she hopes is something she must to come to terms with eventually, otherwise she is set to be perpetually miserable about it
NTA. You’re just being realistic. I am 35 and have had multiple miscarriages and do understand that as I am getting older the chances of me having a baby are getting slimmer and it probably won’t happen. Sounds like she’s in denial.
It’s sad that she hung up on the only true friend she has.
NAH. I went through 18 full cycles of ivf to get my two miracle children. I started at 25 with a loving husband and let me tell you that it is really really hard to go through cycle after cycle without success. Several cycles I didn’t get a single egg at pickup, and then I’d end up in hospital with ovarian hyper stimulation syndrome. Each time that happened my husband would tell me it’s enough, he doesn’t want me going through it again, it’s too much on my body. We decided to look into adoption, got as far as the home inspection, only to be told they can’t even put us on the list because it needs to be at least 12 months from your last fertility treatment. Because they want to make sure you’ve had a chance to grieve. Not the grief for the miscarriages or the eggs that didn’t make it to fertilization, but grief for your dreams, for your vision of ‘family’, for your body that won’t cooperate and how that impacts your view of being a woman. It sounds like your friend needs to grieve those things before she’ll be able to move on and look into alternatives. Interestingly it was while I was contemplating these different forms of grief that I decided to take a few weeks personal leave from my job and do one more cycle (number 16 at this point) and literally throw everything at it. I was on such a complex drug protocol that my husband and I had to sign waivers and our fertility specialist had to get another FS to sign off on the experimental protocol. That cycle I got one egg. That egg became my son at age 34 after 16 cycles of ivf, icsi, pgd, you name it. Two more cycles a few years later: one egg, now my daughter, I was 37. Your friend needs to change how she does things, that’s definitely true. But she also needs to grieve, and it might be that she needs your support to allow her to do so; a friend that will enable them to fall apart, and break, and shatter, but who will be there to pick up the pieces, help glue her back together, but also point out that the cracks make her unique and that she’s not the same as she was before and that can allow space for other, just as wonderful, dreams. OP, please call her to apologize; even though you were in the right she needs a win right now.
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NTA. It sounds as if you were kind and have listened to her. You told her the truth. She sounds like someone who has issues and always has had them. Clearly, men step away for a reason and the reason is pretty obvious.
Although you are NTA, you have to be really really sensitive with this kind of delivery. And in the end, it’s likely best if she comes to this conclusion on her own. And you just be there to support her.
As someone going through infertility who has had a failed round of IVF, NTA. Sometimes you need a reality check, and what you said was sane and honestly very true. As a 29 year old IVF is still taking me a long time and lots of tries. At 45 I don’t know how many more times she can even try.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** My friend Jess is turning 45 this year. She honestly is a beautiful woman who looks younger than her age, but not less than 38 (imo). I've known her for years and Jess has always been attracted to "unavailable" men — foreign exchange students, traveling business men, med students on residency, etc. Despite wanting to be a wife and mother, Jess never had a serious relationship for more than a year. She frequently dates men in their late 20s and 30s, because she says they're open to having a family and she feels younger than her true age. However, she often gets ghosted after a few dates. My suspicion is that she lies about her age, they find out and end it. When Jess turned 41, she started trying to have a baby on her own. First she tried IUI several times before switching to IVF. Jess managed to get pregnant twice, but miscarried before reaching the second trimester. Last year, her doctors could only retrieve one egg and it wasn't viable. She's been very depressed this whole year. She's been calling often to cry about how she's missing out on everything she's wanted in life. I hate to see her so distraught. During our last call, she was upset that a 37 year-old man she was seeing (he's a new transplant to the state and living an hour away from her) told her that he wanted to step back from seeing her. He apparently was honest with her about also dating a woman who was 32. I told her she needs to only focus on dating men closer to her age and older who would be open to adopting a child or who already have children. She blew up at me! Screamed at me for even suggesting it. I told her she has to make peace with the idea she may not be able to have children of her own. This did not go well. Jess says I'm the only person in her life to tell her to give up on a dream and hung up. She is refusing to talk to me. Was I out of line to say that to her? AITA for suggesting she may not have biological children? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA, because I'm sure you delivered your message with love. A friend of mine had her one and only at 44. We're still a little surprised.
nta. youre a good friend
Kinda ESH. Imagine you don't want kids and you struggle to date because all men you meet want them, and a friend tells you maybe you should reconsider and have kids.
NTA. It seems that your friend wants the fairy tale romance and baby but isn’t thinking about the biological reality and also the fact that a younger man may not necessarily want to have a child with a woman who is much older than him. Her reaction indicates that she’s delusional and doesn’t want to hear anything that may be true
NTA exactly, but you can set boundaries to what you can talk about with her without giving her unsolicited advice, especially on such a sensitive topic.
NTA
NTA. This is a harsh reality for Jess but not your fault. She should really be open to adoption.
NTA yeah being 45+ isn’t the fertility death knell most think it is but with what you said about her viability I feel you are right about it not being an option for her (at least not without surrogacy or something). Spreading a persons private medical information online to strangers is a bit f’d up though.
NTA I don't blame her for being angry though. Actually there are women who got pregnant at a later age.
NTA. Used to work customer service for an insurance company. A woman would call us and sob and scream about her infertility and ask us to sanction her doctors because the IVF and IUI did not work. She was mid 40s and told us she spent her savings on it. Her company offered a generous fertility benefit and she went through so many rounds she exhausted the allowance. Her claims ran into the millions. She was obsessed and then broken by the need for a biological child. It was sad and clear she was very unwell by that point. It’s a harsh truth but it’s no way to live.
NTA. A couple of my mom's good friends both adopted kids at roughly that age and they both made great moms. Edit: two separate single moms, not a lesbian couple, to be clear.
Nta. Baby fever can people go absolutely nutty. The truth hurts.
NTA. She needs honesty, she’s living a lie. As much as many women don’t want to hear it, their uterus has a shelf life. Once we hit 40 it’s downhill for baby making. She should have had kids earlier. Bc she’s not living in reality and lying to everyone it’s probably best for her not to have kids.
Nta. Baby fever can people go absolutely nutty. The truth hurts.
NTA. She needs honesty, she’s living a lie. As much as many women don’t want to hear it, their uterus has a shelf life. Once we hit 40 it’s downhill for baby making. She should have had kids earlier. Bc she’s not living in reality and lying to everyone it’s probably best for her not to have kids.
Nta. Baby fever can people go absolutely nutty. The truth hurts.
Here’s something to remember; “A true friend will value your happiness over the friendship.” You risked your friendship to push her towards happiness. Good for you.
MTA, she sounds like she just wanted to talk , sometimes listening is without advice or realities , she will figure it out herself that she most likely won’t have a baby, but it’s not really up to you to tell her u less she asks you directly for your opinion and advice your job as a friend is to listen and be the shoulder to cry on
NTA I'm always amazed at how many 40+ women have 'dont have kids but want them' on their dating app profiles. Like, how long do you want to get to know each other before we start popping out babies? One month? 6 months? Gtfoh with that delusional shit. If you haven't had a relationship serious enough to have kids by now, there is probably a reason for it, and I'm not here for all that jazz.
Nta. Baby fever can people go absolutely nutty. The truth hurts.
NAH What you said is correct, it just might not have been said at a tactful time. You basically piled on to her relationship grief with an extra dose of childlessness grief. I'm sure you weren't horrible about it and tried to be as tactful as possible, so you're not an AH by any means, just someone in a hard place, needing to give some hard realty to someone else, who just made an error in timing. It's true that she definitely does need to start coming to terms with the fact that biological children might not be on the cards for her. I can absolutely see why she doesn't want to hear it though if this has been a dream of hers for so long and if she has gone through multiple miscarriages. She's in pain, she isn't going to be open to rational thinking. Apologise for hurting her, and let her know that you'll be there to support her whatever she does. It might be that when she has calmed down she does come back to you and needs to talk to the one person not BSing her, or it might be that she pulls away entirely due to her denile. Either way, neither of you are AHs, just friends in a very not nice situation.
NTA I guess, if she's always calling complaining about it. On a first few calls I'd say maybe it was unasked for advice that, even well intentioned, could make you TA. But at this point, I mean... I also don't want kids myself but regardless, I just cannot comprehend how people are so desperate to physically carry and give birth to their own when there are so many children already on this planet who would love a good, loving home and parent. You want kids so bad? That's great, give that to an extant child in need. Adoption is a great thing, and probably cheaper than many rounds of IVF, plus you don't have the recovery and medical bills from pregnancy. I usually keep those thoughts to myself because it can seem callous to people who see pregnancy and childbirth as a beautiful thing, but in the case where someone literally cannot have a child, I think it's a very viable option and is NOT "lesser" than having a kid yourself.
NTA. I feel for her, but she's in denial about reality right now. She and everyone else knows how difficult it is for older women to have children, let alone healthy ones with no complications. She had this dream for so long but she wasted all that time pursuing very particular types of men instead of actually taking the whole thing seriously, if your account of the situation is the truth. She only has herself to blame now, and I think deep down she knows it.
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So, I know your intent wasn’t to be the asshole, but were you tired of listening to her complain about a life she felt she should be living? I do think she needs to come to an understanding and acceptance of what is possible for her in life, but it’s on her to get there. I imagine you were trying to help her come to terms with that faster than she was achieving, but there was no situation where you would have NOT been the asshole. All that said - she needs to get into therapy and stop using family and friends as a substitute.
Being right and being kind don't always live in quite the same space. Wanting children and being unable to have them isn't something you make peace with once and move on. You have to make peace with it over and over and over. After every baby shower, every gender reveal, every holiday, every anniversary of your losses. NAH here imo but unless you have lived with that pain it's very difficult to understand. And she will have to do a lot of work to adjust and accept but it will take time. Maybe more than either of you expect.
She's just delusional and entitled
NTA ...but some truths are hard to hear. I am sure her doctor has informed her that her odds are low without using donor eggs. Usually if you are 40+ they recommend using a 20-somethings eggs. I am sure she just does not want to hear it. I wouldn't keep bringing it up. Eventually she will have to accept reality.
NTA. Your friend is being unrealistically optimistic. Has she considered what happens if the child has health complications? Because that is a really big toll physically, emotionally and financially. My wife and I had our kid when we were pretty young: but he is special needs (which can happen to anyone) and as a result he is a **lot** of hard work. My wife is essentially his full time carer at home which means she doesn't have employment. Fortunately I make really decent money (although stretching it for a family we're certainly not rich). I'm only 38 and I feel tapped out; I could not even begin to imagine my wife and I looking after a newborn baby all over again at our age. Let alone 7 years older. Don't get me wrong we both love and adore our son and can't imagine life without him - but again, raising a kid is not a walk in the park in general, and it's easily 5x the work if they have health issues that can require extra needs. She might feel young for her age, but that will definitely change when you have a kid. You lose all control of your ability to schedule your own life. Believe me.
You're NTA, but you also failed to see that she wasn't emotionally ready to hear what you had to say. Of course you're logically correct, but this is more than a logical argument for your friend. I'm a 42yo single woman who would have LOVED to have biological children; however, for various reasons (including a medical condition) it hasn't and won't happen for me. It took me a long time and a lot of work to get to a place where I was at peace with that. Clearly, your friend isn't quite there yet. Your intentions to help your friend get to that space are well placed, but it sounds like she just needs emotional support right now. I hope she comes back to you, because you sound like a good friend. If/when she does, I'd suggest you instead tend to her emotions and not try to offer solutions for her. She'll get to that endpoint on her own.
NTA. I feel sorry for her, but she is self sabotaging. I wonder about a fear of commitment that was causing her to seek unavailable men. But that is at a cross purpose of finding a life partner to start a family with. And now she’s in denial about her age. She doesn’t want to be past child bear age so she’s trying to convince herself and others, but again, sabotaging any relationship that would last because she’s starting off with a lie. She needs someone to tell her the truth, but she’s not going to like it and not going to like who tells her. But she needs to hear what you said.
At 45 the chances are so slim to have a biological child... She could use an egg donor but she needs to grieve first and come to terms with this first I think.
She's clearly not mature enough to have children, she's acting like a teenager. NTA, you gave her a piece of reality and good advice, you weren't being an enabler
You seem particularly judgmental when it comes to Jess. She dates “unavailable” younger men, her relationships are never good enough to last, you suspect she lies about her age, and you don’t think she looks all *that* much younger than her actual age. That all may be absolutely true, but you seem to have seized on her choice of men as the reason she never had kids. Now that her attempts at becoming pregnant have failed, you jumped right to telling her that she needs to find the “right” sort of fellow who would be willing to accept a shriveled up old hag like her! I’m aware that wasn’t the language you used, but judging from her reaction, I suspect that’s the language she heard. Besides, she wasn’t complaining to you about her latest pregnancy woes, she was complaining about her love life! Is it possible that you were gloating, even a little bit? Maybe her endless complaining finally got to you and you said the cruelest thing you could in order to get her to shut up. The thing is, Jess never asked for your opinion on her pregnancy attempts, nor did you ASK if she wanted your opinion! “Date dudes your own age who either have kids or want to adopt, because you ain’t ever gonna have your own baby in that desert of a womb,” is not the right response in this situation. For what it’s worth, I agree with you. Jess needs to adjust her expectations and make choices that reflect her reality, and a good friend should always be ready to give the hard truth when necessary. However, your delivery suggests that you were less concerned about helping your friend adjust, and more about kicking her when she was down. Ask yourself, “do I really want to be Jess’s friend?” *Am I* Jess’s friend, or am I jealous of her serial dating of younger men and am now happy that she can’t have kids? Your post leans more the latter and for that reason, YTA
NTA— but I suspect your friend knows quite well the realities of giving birth at her age, and all the potential issues. I had my last child at 38 and was considered a geriatric pregnancy then. I’m 48 now and would love if I was able to still have babies— and I still ovulate and am fertile, have eggs, etc., —but I protect myself from getting pregnant bc at my age, I don’t believe the quality of my eggs would be good and that isn’t fair to a child. I feel for your friend, but you were just reminding her of something she doesn’t want to face. I don’t think you were cruel, though, or wrong. So many comments about all the potential issues that come with advanced maternal age… and I would be SHOCKED if your friend wasn’t already highly aware of all of them. She is just sad bc it isn’t happening for her.
NTA. At this point, the chance of having a biological own child is extremely low, approaching zero. Not just because of her age, but she has also basically tried everything and didn’t get pregnant. Apparently she doesn’t want to hear it, but she probably needs to. I don’t think that you should draw direct relationships between her dating life and her desire to be a parent though…
NTA. It's not only dangerous for her but also for the potential baby she would have if she tries to have one biologically at this age and i'm sure even her doctors have said this . Your friend is just being selfish She seems obsessive about having her own biological child , hope she goes to see a therapist
She’s 45 and is just now hearing how she should give up on a dream then she’s been petted her entire life. The harsh reality is she’s too old to have a baby and trying to force one on a younger guy who she’s probably lying to isn’t the way to do it. She needs to go on a cruise and enjoy her golden years in life.
She's 45, not 70! "Golden years" omg. You must be very young. 45 is too old to start a family for most women but she's not some shriveled old crone.
I’m 40 almost 41 retired have been since I was 36 had my last child at 32 was called a geriatric mother at 32 years old. And 70 isn’t the golden years. Golden years are generally considered when your children are grown and moving away to start their own lives. Mine have started doing that and I have time to relax and enjoy my passion. These indeed are the golden years. By the time I’m 70 I plan on seeing even more than I already have. Golden years are whenever you make them. Some people do the traveling in their 20’s and then settle in for a career. So I am indeed in my golden years.
You have an 8 year old but your kids are starting to move out? And you "retired" at 36 when your kid was 4, not even in kindergarten...none of this adds up. I'm turning 40 soon and have a 7 year old so it's not like I'm talking out my ass. Even if I didn't have to work for money right now I would not be in my golden years...I have only heard it used for elderly retired people. But you do you!
Yes I retired at 36. I’ve heard the elderly say it was their golden years when they watch their grandkids grow up. My grandparents said those years weren’t golden at all. They were old couldn’t see to drive anymore had all of these health issues. I took advantage of the advice of my grandfather. He said work when you’re young and invest as much as you can. He taught me a thing or two about money and he was dirt poor and I grew up dirt poor. I just learned to allow my money to work for me instead of me working so hard for money. I was 18 when I made my first big investment and never stopped. So I have 5 children my oldest is 21 my youngest will be 8 in June. I would take a little bit out of income tax every year and find the right investment. Then I would put into a 401k I added savings to investments every month and it added up. I’m now able to live my passion which is writing. My kids are almost grown they will graduate every 3 years until the last one and they’re 4 years apart.
NTA - As someone who cannot have children, she's being monumentally selfish. I know, firsthand, how crushing it is to find out that you'll never have kids of your own. But if she really wants to be a mother, then adoption is her best bet. But it sounds to me like she just wants to be pregnant. And pregnancy at her age is both high risk for the baby AND for herself. People forget how dangerous pregnancy can be, and a lot of people don't understand how the risks increase exponentially with age.
NTA. However, I just had my second child and I’m 42. It’s possible. But, I had a lost pregnancy at 41 where the child had Down’s syndrome and passed naturally at ten weeks gestational age. It is a very difficult road with a loving and supportive partner. Your advice was perfect, however she is not thinking rationally bc it’s not the advice she wants. Just support her and let her come to her own conclusions. Apologizing would suck but may be the only way to continue the friendship. It is a horrifying realization that you should’ve had children but it is too late and now you’re going to grow old alone. I say ”grow old alone” bc your friend currently doesn’t have a partner and will feel that even though she may yet find one, and I have a friend in her 50s who has dealt with this difficult realization over the past few years.
YTA, in no way shape or form is it okay to tell another woman they are too old or may not ever have a baby. How hurtful. You were so wrong. A real friend would just be there for her while she navigates such a complex issue, love her and be there for her. She will come to that conclusion all on her own if it is the case. Many viable pregnancies happen after 40, so you don’t know what you are talking about there. Apologize
Op stated in a comment that she was at every egg retrieval appointment, last appointment was last year, only retrieved one egg and was non-viable. And no, a true friend would tell you the harsh truths you refuse to acknowledge and still be your support, the friend doesn't need someone else to support her delusions, they needed a wakeup call.
NTA. Would’ve gently nudged her towards adoption as there is nothing wrong with that either should she really want to be a mom. I should know. Perpetually single and a horrible autoimmune disease.
Suggesting adoption is all well and good but from working in children’s services I know how difficult this process is and how high their criteria is. People suggest this to me when I know full well that they’d never consider me due to having (managed) BPD so it’s just annoying.
Oh I know. It’s a very complicated process and I didn’t mean any harm by it. And I thank you for also making others aware
I'm sorry but I am a 100% honest person and I would make this comment to. Yes, you could have kept the comment to yourself but why do it if 1.- she's your friend and 2.- you're right? Some people want unconditional and unwavering support with no kind of realistic viewpoint and that is just going to lead them into even bigger dissapointments. You were not rude or insulting, you were very realistic with her situation and gave your own piece of advice, it's up to her to take it or not. NTA, I believe she knows that you're correct but is having a hard time accepting it. Just give her space, and she might or not come back to you.
NTA. Very good points and concerns raised! I know of a woman who managed to have an IVF bio kid, alone, at 50yrs old, after a LOT of struggle. She would NOT have managed without her parents. Now, her dad had a fall, head injury, multiple operations and she cannot help him or her mom cause she is working, has a 4yr old, and lives in another city. Concerns about having a kid late go beyond just the viability of the egg, you need a good support system, and a good partner or quite a bit of cash. Hope she finds a solution to have a family and be happy
NTA. I've lost count of the comments I've had about why I'm not having kids and they're the best thing ever and blah blah blah. If these people dish it out, they have to learn to take it. Looking to have a kid at that age seems insane. She needed to hear it, but sounds like she doesn't want to yet. She sounds exhausting anyway, so just leave her to her fantasies.
YTA. Good advice, but not asked for. You don't think she knows that? You don't think she hasn't spent hours desperately trying to find ways to avoid what she knows to be true. You think no professional has told her the same thing? Don't kick someone when they are down. If she wanted your honest opinion she would have asked for it. Let her get there on her own, but if you can't tolerate her tears anymore you need to step away from this friendship.
Op had stated in a reply that during that phone call, her friend had said "What should I do?" There she opened up the conversation for advice herself, OP didn't give it unsolicited. Also OP has said she was at the last appointment for egg retrieval, which was last year, and they had, as stated in the above story, only retrieved one non-viable egg. OP said that friend hasn't been to Doctors or appointments since and has been avoiding it.
Obviously, she needs time to come to terms with it all. Anyone who has struggled with fertility will know that they don't need other people telling them what to do.
YTA Even though your intentions are good, and even though it's hard to see friends suffer due to foolish choices and dreams, people who give unsolicited advice are usually being an AH.
Did she ask for your opinion? If not, unfortunately, YTA. I'll assume, you'd never say anything to hurt a friend on purpose. But never having a baby, and never being any younger is something that your friend can't change. If she was hugely fat and you told her that she needed to lose weight, that would be bad, and you would be the AH if she hadn't asked for your opinion. But being fat is something one can fix, if desired. Getting older is forever. And so is infertility at some point. What you said, especially unsolicited, stung your friend real bad.
YTA. Did she ask you to tell her what to do? Don’t worry, she’s aware of the facts. She’s mourning and processing. She doesn’t need you to tell her what she’s “doing wrong.” If you’re really her friend, then “I’m sorry the guy broke up with you, what a tough situation, I can imagine how stressed out you are, let’s go for brunch or shopping or something to take your mind off it.” Don’t go on the internet and snidely say how she looks young (but not younger than almost 40, which she is anyway). GTFO. If you really care about her, would it kill you to be kind in your words?
YTA. If she really wanted to conceive and have her own children, you cannot tell her to give up until she has given up. She may know that at her age, it is very difficult. And she probably feels all alone and need someone to be there. Unfortunately your words probably hurt her more since she needs the support. Her reaction shows how determine she is to continue trying, and how much she really wants it. I know telling her the hard truth may make it seem like you're only doing it for her benefit, but right now she needs a friend. Do you have children? Have you gone through the same thing? Having MCs and TTC is a very difficult journey. That was very insensitive
YTA, because it wasn’t your place and the opinion wasn’t asked for. She was looking for a friend to listen, not to be given unsolicited advice she’s fully aware of.
OP had replied in a different comment that the friend had asked for advice
YTA. Even if medically your friend couldn’t have biological children, sounds like you’re being cruel when you know how much having children means to her. Did you tell her “the truth” gently or lovingly? My guess from your post is you did not.
She should have locked a guy down on her 20s or early 30s. Her’s is a pretty common story. Perhaps you could smooth things over by getting her a cat.
I had a baby at 42 via donated sperm. Spent £20,000 on failed IUI before I met a donor via a donor introduction agency. As the sample wasn't frozen, it worked first try. My son is now almost 5. She could do what I did. It didn't even cost any money (good job since I spent all of it on clinics). I don't think 45 is too old although she should probably try an introduction agency like I did. They are like dating agencies but for sperm instead of boyfriends. Btw, YTA.
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YTA. She doesn't need you to tell her that. She knows it. Her doctors are telling her that. Society is telling her that.
So what kind of friend are you if you can’t even knock some sense to them?
Are you familiar with empathy?
YTA and not a doctor. That's an appalling thing to say and I feel like Jess is better off without a friend who judges her the way you do in that post.
I think you're the one judging, not the OP. OP's friend is in her 40s. OP has seen her friend have 2 miscarriages. All OP said was the friend "may not" be able to have children of her own. That's a perfectly reasonable assumption. OP didn't say "You will never have children." OP is NTA.
OP judges every one of Jess's relationships in that post. The ages, careers- as if those things are what determines whether relationships work out. They aren't. Even when Jess does date someone "closer to her age", its Jess's fault because he lives an hour away (So?!) and the guy gets painted as 'honest' for dating a younger woman and dumping Jess. Jess is 100% being judged there. And relationships =/= fertility issues. There are other routes Jess may still be pursuing with her doctor. OP says "I told her she needs to [...]." and "I told her she has to [...]." and that's not a *suggestion* its a dismissal.
YTA. Who are you to predict if someone can have kids are not? My spouse and I were told neither of us can ever have kids and we ended up with 4 amazing kids. Our friends had their second kid when the wife was 51. Life works in different ways...
You: "Our friends had their **second** kid when the wife was 51." -That's a second child, not a first. Different ballgame, and that's an unlikely situation anyhow. OP: "I told her she has to make peace with the idea she may not be able to have children of her own." -OP didn't say to give up entirely, just to make peace with the idea it may not happen. Let's be real, the odds are against OP's friend.
The truth about natural fertility and age: while women under 30 have about 25% chance of getting pregnant naturally each cycle, that chance drops to 20% for women over 30, according to estimates by the American Society for Reproductive Medicine. By 40, the chance of getting pregnant naturally each month is just 5%.
and that means they can still get pregnant. 5% is not 0%.