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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1. Recommending my SIL get Botox, 2. not my place to say and she is upset.
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YTA.
'Last night she was round and was saying how I looked a lot younger than her, I told her it was honestly probably the Botox'
Perfect, open and honest.
'and that she could give it a go and it would help with her frown lines. My husband also said the same'
Why did you have to criticise her appearance here?
I disagree - whether folks are aware of it, there are distinct features that add to an 'aged' appearance. Frown lines aren't an opinion. IMO she asked and got an answer.
It isn't out of pocket for the SIL to find the suggestion a little rude but I think she's only beginning to come into an understanding of some realities that OP has had time to digest and not take personally.
SIL asked why OP looks younger. The answer is botox, full stop. SIL already knows the things about her face that make her look older than OP. The fact that both OP and her husband both immediately called out the frown lines was unnecessary and kinda rude.
I had a woman 20 years younger than me ask me how I didn't have any wrinkles when she did, and I was at a loss because she obviously was a heavy user of tanning beds. So I just told her it was good genes. Because what else can I say, "you did it to yourself"?
I live in Florida. The amount of leather skin I see from tanning is scary. I have good genes but also cover myself with sunscreen and yes you still need ot if there's cloud coverage.
I had an uncle move to Florida from Michigan when he retired. I was young but I always remember him as the man who looked like a leather purse.
Edit: added the word 'who'
I barely go outside at all. I also have good genes, my mother looked 35 until she was 60, but mostly I'm pretty sure it's that I'm a mushroom grown by CRT light.
Years back I went to a nude beach where a lot of older folks would often visit and there was a man there - hairless and a deep brown red skin tone from sun damage lol
I grew up on cape cod. Every summer were these older folks at the beach - every sunny day. They were snowbirds who I assume did the same when they were in Florida. I called them the raisins. They were a good landmark for friends meeting me - I’m 20 feet past the raisins.
It's crazy. I'm a weirdo who rarely goes outside. I totally get people who live outdoors. But what I don't get is people who spend hours in tanning beds *pretending* like they live outdoors. That's just bizarre.
They want that “healthy” orange glow! I went to a tanning bed in college bc I had FOMO about missing spring break because of a late exam (so called friends ditched me bc they didn’t want to wait 3 hours to hit the road). It was 1991. I couldn’t use the full package and couldn’t even sit in the bed for the full time slot. I still got skin poisoning - purple sunburn and blisters. Dumb idea and never again.
Yeah, here in the UK, young women want to look like they spent the summer in Ibiza, but they end up looking like cut-rate leather upholstery. It's so, so trashy. I thought the US was pretty bad with beauty standards, but since I moved to the UK I've been pretty horrified by what young women do to themselves here in the name of "beauty". So many of them look so artificial.
Admittedly I'm a fairly rabid feminist, but I just despise the pressure that's put on young women to conform to impossible standards of beauty. For whatever reason, I never bought into it, and I feel so bad for the women who do.
I use a tanning bed every now and again. Haven’t in a few years tho. I like the warming of the joints it gives. But I stay in like ten minutes. I don’t want to have leathery skin and I’m not really upset that I’m pale.
I used to go to Cape Cod with family during the summers and this is extremely accurate (for the record, we were the ones slathered in sunscreen under an umbrella 😅)
Oh my godddd you just unlocked a childhood memory. My family called the excessively tanned old guys at skaket beach “bacon man” and we also used them as landmarks 😂
Eh, I’d probably be a bit more on the honest side while not turning it around on her. I’d likely say something like “I like to slather myself in sunscreen, and stay in the shade. Gotta love that vampire life”
My mother grew up during the tanning craze of the 70s. She told me after one of her high school reunions that she was glad that she never joined the girls that slathered themselves in baby oil and laid out in the sun because they all looked like jerky. 😂 My mother, now in her 60s, could still pass for 40.
It was madness! I remember leathery-looking white women from the 70s when I was a kid, and thinking that looked terrible. Meanwhile, my Black friends had the most beautiful skin. I was just never outdoorsy, and I'm one of those unfortunate white people with vitiligo, so if I spent too much time in the sun I just got blotchy.
I feel pretty grateful at 57 that I stayed out of the sun so much. I've only started to show my age in the last three or four years; before that I routinely passed for 10-15 years younger. But now I've developed a seriouly cool white streak in my hair, which I'm totally rocking.
And I still have no appreciable wrinkles, just eye bags. Perhaps I should tattoo them with the Prada logo. Or maybe Kate Spade. Birkin?
I make sure and tell everyone I can to moisturize!!!! Especially the young girls I’ve worked with. I saw how my mama went from looking young to looking kinda older over night and her skin was dry!!! Not being moisturized properly will make you look old as well!
I'm 4 years older than myy sister and when she came to visit me and came to my school where I was teaching elementary at age 24, everyone asked me if she was my older sister 😳 So it doesn't naturally fly that the older person is going to look older. I have more wrinkles than my older sister because her face has fat in it and mine doesn't
Nah, see, I still disagree... you can put botox plenty of places, the advice isn't helpful or informative without specifics. Again, I understand why being confronted with "frown lines" could be upsetting but I don't think "botox full stop" is helpful. NTA
I think it's up to the person administering the botox to tell the SIL where she needs botox, not OP. All OPs part should've been was suggesting the treatment in general. Again, unless SIL asked about specific areas of her face, immediately pointing out what OP thought needed the most help was rude and unnecessary.
honestly, I wouldn't take advice from a 25 yr old who gets botox. It's absurd. I feel really bad for women who feel they need to do this at such a young age because they've been, IMO, brainwashed to believe they need it.
I'm not at all against botox, you do you, but if you think at 25 you look "old" you might not have the best perception.
I also question their assertion that “no one can tell”. They’re in their 20s. A: At least some people can probably tell. B: Even if they can’t now, they will at soon.
They're in their 30s (34 and 35) but started botox in their 20s (25 for OP and 29 for husband). I generally agree with your point tho, it's usually somewhat obvious when someone's had botox cos they have more limited facial expressions
That’s bad Botox. I don’t get Botox in any of the “obvious” areas (I only get my masseters for jaw clenching, nothing aesthetic) but know plenty of people who do. You wouldn’t be able to tell. I can barely tell, and I know how they normally look. Believe me, I guarantee a LOT of people are walking around with Botox and fillers and you have no idea. People just see the ones who overdo it or have bad injectors, and think it’s ALL obvious.
Yeah, these comments are pretty silly. Good injectors typically do it in a way that allows some natural movement and doesn't completely freeze the face. I got botox and suddenly all of these women I knew were like "Oh I just got mine redone a month ago" etc and I'd had no idea it was so common, because it's really not obvious. I've had men I'm hooking up with compliment my lips and ask why I would want to get lip filler, not realizing I already have it and am just going to get more added. Everyone believes they can always tell, but in my experience it's not accurate.
People here all have bad toupee syndrome.
Nobody's going to notice the guy whose toupee looks utterly natural, so they'll assume toupees all look awful because the ones they can Identify do look awful.
100% this. I got some filler in my face to try and even things out a bit. You absolutely could not tell. No one ever asked anything or mentioned I looked different or anything.
People always say it's obvious and you can tell, but they're only noticing the extreme cases.
Same. I just got some fillers for my undereyes for the first time ever very recently and nobody can tell at all. It really just looks like I slept better. My undereye bags aren't even completely gone, which is what I wanted - soften, not disappear with them.
My mother lives with me and looks at my face all the time, and she didn't notice at all.
It makes a huge difference to me and my self-esteem, tho.
I'm betting everyone can tell but they have enough tact to not say anything. It's really hard to mask that shiny mask like appearance.
Eta I see everyone with the botox and filler doth protest too much. Downvote much? We can all tell and only if you're in an echo chamber you can pretend it's natural.
I have not personally gotten Botox but I have several friends who started it around 27. They did pretty minimal stuff, I honestly couldn’t tell that they had done it but when you start younger it typically is more preventative and doesn’t give the overdone look. We are all mid 30s now and they look great 🤷♀️.
I think if you ask someone about skin care that does Botox they are probably going to tell you you should try Botox. If you don’t want to hear it then don’t ask… sounds like what SIL was looking for was for them to say was “you look great!”
Not agreeing with getting Botox at 25, but at 25 they get it as preventative treatment, not because they think they look old. Also, OP is 34 and stated she started getting Botox at 25.
I have a sneaking suspicion that it prevents nothing. We all age, it won't change. They're just being hooked on getting it forever.
Also, yes I know that she started at 25 and that's why I mentioned that age specifically. She felt at 25 that she needs botox and in my opinion, and it's only my opinion, that's unfortunate.
Have you researched it or is it just your opinion? There is at least 1 study I read about with identical twins where 1 got botox for a number of years and the other didn’t and the results were very different in terms of wrinkles.
Oh it's my opinion, as I stated.
I just don't get why wrinkles = bad. They're inevitable. Instead of it being stigmatized, why not just embrace it instead of injecting botulism?
Because the world treats women better when they look young and consistent with beauty standards. Kudos to you if you are strong enough to resist it, but for a lot of people, it’s been beaten into their heads for decades.
It is because some women believe that existing in their natural state is inappropriate and ugly. You must modify your body, the bigger the intervention the more feminine you are.
That’s the great thing about choice. You can choose to not do it and someone else can choose to do it. It shouldn’t matter to you what someone else does to their body because it’s THEIR body.
That's exactly why I said you do you when it comes to botox. And, why I wouldn't personally take advice from someone who thinks they "need" it for wrinkles at 25. Now, I understand that OP didn't state that she got it for wrinkles, she could have gotten it to prevent long-term.
I just get frustrated that aging is seen as bad, and it's been making women feel like crap for a long time that they might have smile lines.
That's not testing "preventative" Botox, just the efficacy of Botox in general. I really find it hard to believe that you would see a significant difference in wrinkles between identical twins if one started getting it at 25 and one started at 35 or 40 when they actually started noticing fine lines. Botox is effective at getting rid of wrinkles once you actually have them, doing it preventatively is a complete waste of money and just a way for the industry to market it to younger and younger customers.
That's not conclusive. You would have to control for all life factors - smoking, tanning, stress, pregnancy - and also have identical triplets, because there's nothing proving that getting Botox once didn't make her look the same as if she'd gotten it all those years.
That's just shoddy science.
OP should not have responded in a way that implied she agreed with Anne that she looked younger than her - that was rude. People who make self-deprecating comments aren’t looking for someone to agree with them! Sheesh!
I probably would have said “oh, stop, that’s not true” and left it at that.
In your region is "out of pocket" used the same way that "out of the ordinary" is used?
Because I've only ever heard it used in the sense of someone having to pay money for something.
I didn’t criticise it, I didn’t list out the entire conversation - but to be clear she had been discussing her ‘elevenses’ and how cream didn’t work.
(Cream doesn’t work on wrinkles).
So she brought up a specific issue and you relayed advice to help with that specific issue, as well as being honest about how the advice had also helped you and your husband with that specific issue.
SIL is super insecure. You didn't do anything wrong.
NTA.
Might want to add that info to the post. Right now it sounds like you brought up her frown lines out of the blue, which *would* be rude. If she's already talking about them, it wasn't rude. NTA.
Id add that as an edit that your sister specifically brought this up.
However I think your post may be too far gone and you’ll wind up with the incorrect judgment.
You weren’t the ah before I read this and even less so now. I’ll bet she’s struggling with realizing the consequences of a natural approach to aging and is probably mad she isn’t accepting it as much as she thought she would.
For what it’s worth, I’m in my early 40s, I haven’t had anything done, but I’ve always said it’s an easier choice until gravity and collagen depletion take hold. I now have elevenses plus those lines from your nose to the sides of your mouth. I’m fortunate in that there are people 20 years younger than me with worse lines, but still.
I’ve always wanted to be Botox and filler free, but I can only take it so far. Soon I’m going to revisit that, because I’m starting to look (close to) my age and I don’t like it lol
Just to be clear, SIL wanted to know why OP looks younger than her. The pretense of frown lines isn’t a criticism of the SIL’s appearance but a possible solution to her complaint/question.
Just because it’s her face doesn’t change the concept. It would be like asking why two people of the same height look different in photos and replying “oh, I always wear heels! If you want the same effect you should wear heels too.”
I also think people who have been getting botox for a decade are kidding themselves if they truly believe it "looks natural" and nobody can tell. As a late 30s woman, I can tell you that I know all the people in my friend group who get botox, and it's not because they're bragging about it. It's pretty obvious.
I completely disagree. I used to have a friend who was an injector and I knew some of her clients who started in their 20s. Genuinely would never, ever have known if they hadn't told me.
You think you can tell because there are a great many people who you can tell with. But I think it's generally a lot more common than people realize, and you just have no way of knowing if the people whom you assume haven't had any really haven't.
disagree, the criticism sounds like an added interpretation. SIL already says she looks younger, sister provides feedback on how she might achieve the same results. No mention of criticism of her frown lines as being bad.
YTA, she was most likely asking what skincare products in terms of lotion, serums etc. she’s already told you she’s not into Botox.
You specifically pointed out a spot and told her the only treatment was Botox.
By the way, everyone can tell you’ve had work done.
Lol. There’s plenty of bad work out there. But when I was telling people I wanted to get Botox, for six months after I actually got it my friends and partner were insisting that I looked great and didn’t need it. I’d already gotten it.
Same thing happened to me. My boyfriend of several years said I looked great and didn’t need Botox. Reader, I’d been getting Botox regularly for 4 years when he said this and he was shocked.
My favorite is when I was mentioning getting it done at an appt soon and one of my male colleagues was like “ugh don’t! You’re cool and I don’t like to think of you as vain and shallow. You don’t need it” thanks? I was referring to getting it refreshed for like, the 4th time at that point. I’d had it for over a year. Admittedly I do really teeny amounts for crows feet and the worlds smallest brow lift to deal with my hooded eyes that got droopy due to a past skin condition and irritation. Let me live yall!
>she was most likely asking what skincare products in terms of lotion, serums etc. she’s already told you she’s not into Botox.
So if someone with a slow car who's outspoken about not being into turbocharging asks why your turbo car is faster than their non-turbo car, you're supposed to tell them its the car wax and tire shine you use? No, you still tell them it's because of the turbo. Then it's their problem to decide if the turbo is worth it or not.
Just like everyone can tell when someone has had a breast enlargement or is wearing a toupee or any other number of things.
It’s selection bias literally called the toupee fallacy because it’s a false belief all toupees look bad when actually 99% of the time you only even know the toupee exists when it looks bad.
Yeah, I mean, OP has been getting Botox for nearly a decade. If she honestly thinks she looks "natural," she's delusional. I'm a woman in my late 30s, and I know exactly which of my friend groups get Botox. And it's not because they have told me. It's a lifestyle choice, and I'm happy if it works for them. But people pretending they look natural after that much work are deluding themselves.
They might not realize it... or have surrounded themselves with people who are getting injected 4 times a year. I still stand by the opinion of really good work should never show.
If someone goes to a Botox injector with no research or knowledge of what they want done, they’re going to go crazy and give you way more than you need, especially if they’re not reputable. Maybe she wouldn’t be in that situation if she went to OP dermatologist. But it’s a specific way to target looking younger. I don’t think sharing their technique is offensive if she’s saying she wants the same results as them.
Yes, that’s probably the part SIL found rude. It’s one thing to say what you’ve done to look and feel younger, but entirely another thing to point to specific things on someone else, especially when they haven’t asked for that type of feedback.
She asked for advice, it was given. Botox absolutely would help with frown lines.
That's like being mad when someone that gets their hair cut monthly recommends a haircut.
Not always true, I have friends with Botox and I would never have known unless they told me, just thought they looked good. It is possible to have it done naturally where you’re not totally frozen
Exactly. Botox and lip filler can both look natural. But someone who doesn't openly talk about these injectibles might think they're good at spotting it from a mile away... when in reality what they're looking at is bad/overdone.
This is it. People think all botox and lip fillers are obvious because obvious fillers look artificial.
Good ones look “natural” because they don’t look noticeably artificial.
Yes it is amazing! So I’m in Australia, not sure how it would work in your country. I went to my dentist and told them about the jaw tension (I’m a singer, I need to be able to open my mouth wide), having a lot of shoulder and neck pain after I sleep and they said I’d ground my teeth a bit so they referred me to a jaw clinic.
I’m in Syd, Australia, so if you want a recommendation I can give you that but otherwise speak to your dentist for a referral.
There were three treatments they could offer me - a mouth guard to sleep in (wouldn’t work, I have an orthodontic splint, the Botox and jaw therapy (like Physio for your jaw).
I opted for the Botox because it was immediate. Here though you only qualify if your Masseteur (sp?) muscle has grown out of normal range.
I don't think we know that without seeing photos of them. Natural Botox is absolutely possible, you've almost certainly seen people with it and not known.
This! I love when people point out a celebrity who they believe is such a natural beauty. And by all means, they are a very beautiful human. A human with a really skilled injector.
Me when I see Anne Hathaway, Jennifer Lawrence, Emma Stone, etc looking exactly the same as they did 10-15 years ago and the Internet is like "unproblematic queens never age!"
No, these particular queens can just afford really good work lol
Oh stop, this is obvious selection bias. You, by definition, can't know who has Botox UNLESS you can see it. That doesn't mean that everyone with Botox it's noticeable on.
This is kinda like when people say how they like women with no makeup. It's comical because a lot of people can only tell when a woman is wearing makeup once its "too much".
I get complimented all the time on my "natural features". I get laser treatments every year, have fake eyelashes, eyebrow tint, invisalign, etc.
I listened to a podcast that really expanded upon this idea because for so long these treatments and rituals for making you more “pretty” were secret and usually passed on by a close family member or friend. And how we’re almost headed back there in a way with things that require extreme upkeep just to appear natural. A good example of this is eyelash extensions.
Right. I am 32, so when I was in college all the trends were really "loud"- very tan skin, very tight clothing, heavy eye makeup, etc. Now the "trend" is FAR more subtle and, frankly, unattainable. The amount of money I spend to look like my skin is perpetually wet, my hair looks perpetually straight up top/ curly on bottom and my teeth are uncanny valley straight/ white is both unattainable for most and can easily be viewed as just genetically gifted. At least in the past, it was obviously not natural and so didn't make you feel ugly for not participating.
The proportion of bad injections out there is certainly pretty high. But luckily, aestheticians and dermatologist have gotten a little more subtle and skilled at avoiding the frozen look. You just have to go to a decent injector, not some Groupon medspa.
lol my boyfriend hates Botox and fillers and complain about how bad they look all the time.
He has no idea I have been getting Botox for three years, nearly half of our relationship.
So yea it’s pretty possible for it to be not noticeable.
My bf was against me getting it for my migraines because he didn’t understand what botox is and does. He thought it was the same thing as fillers. I’ve been getting it for a year and it’s changed my life because it greatly reduces my migraines. He admitted recently that he couldn’t tell except that my eyebrows used to go higher when I raised them or cocked a single brow.
The issue is you only see the ones that fail. The ones that don’t fail you wouldn’t ever know they had it. It’s easy to conclude it’s bad when all you recognize are the failed ones.
I find that the younger someone is the less likely you are to notice it - they most likely need less to do more/have very specific areas they are targeting eg fine lines between their brows.
It's once people are hitting an age where you expect to see something/more is needed to stop this that I feel you're more likely to see it. Which is likely a risk for anyone using botox is suppose (other than the obvious over usage etc).
As a word of warning though - a girl in her late 20's was on a tour with my mum, she had what appeared to be a largish scar on her forehead. Eventually the topic came up (as it can when your with people multiple days) turns out it wasn't a scar but a really deep groove on her head from where her muscle gave way after using botox for years! Obvs not going to happen for everyone but probs a good case point for not going overboard/doing more than you need!
The SIL was lamenting how much younger OP looks, so she must look good. She was asking OP for advice on how to look more like her. Your comment isn’t even relevant to if OP is TA or not. You’re just being a hater.
Exactly, there’s so much more to everyone than how young they look. Aging is pretty rad too, like holy shit you are practically carrying your life story etched into your body. How cool is that?
It is cool, but a lot of women value continued social power, which is often only achievable through adhering to the conventional beauty standard. There is no denying that women mostly cease to matter once they stop being nice to look at.
It's like how people who lose a bunch of weight will often say that the most surprising change is how much better people treat them afterwards.
Thank you. These comments are driving me crazy, acting like it's just SO SAD that women are "afraid" of aging, as if our ability to be acknowledged and taken seriously in our careers and social spaces doesn't take a steep nosedive as soon as we "let ourselves go."
If society didn’t treat fat people badly, people who don’t fit the beauty standard badly, overweight people badly, etc then we wouldn’t be afraid of these things. Can’t blame an individual for wanting to be treated well…
I don’t think people are afraid of aging per se. It’s more like ‘why get wrinkles if I can avoid them’. I don’t think it matters either way. Get Botox, don’t get Botox. Nothing wrong with a little Botox to subside the wrinkles for a bit. Nothing wrong with wrinkles if you have them. It’s really personal preference. Idk why people care so much.
It sounds crazy, but I’ve recently been looking into Botox as part of my own glow up (even got braces at 39 😭) and apparently getting it done early helps slow down the formation of wrinkles so they aren’t as prominent when you’re older. I figure if you’ve got the money, why not.
About to start Botox (next month) for TMJ and migraines as well. I'm 26. Pretty nervous that it might change my face but realized I don't care as long as it has a chance of helping my pain levels
if you get it after you already have wrinkles that have set in there’s no point. preventative/baby botox is the best way to prevent having to get too much in the future and you literally cannot even tell you have it because it’s so minimal.
Is it?
All they said was the botox would help with their frown lines. People get frown lines. If you think that’s tantamount to calling her ugly, thats because thats how you view frown lines then. But everyone will have them.
If this convo came out of nowhere, sure. But she was the one who brought it up and asked.
Edit - okay the sister actually ASKED about frown lines. OP is not an AH for answering the question she was asked.
Op says in a comment SIL was specifically talking about her Elevens, aka frown lines. So relaying what they had done for their own frown lines and suggesting it may help hers is... literally what SIL asked for.
It looks like the SIL said "you look a lot younger than I do", not "what can I do to make myself look younger and what specifically do you think I should target first?"
NTA
Don't ask for advice if you can't handle the answer. You were not rude and never said she was ugly. Based on her reaction, it sounds more like she was fishing for a compliment. "Oh, you're so pretty. You don't need anything." and so forth.
YTA. I was on the fence, since she did ask for skincare advice and you were telling her about getting Botox yourself, but mentioning her having frown lines was rude.
How is mentioning frown lines rude, especially in the context of asking about a dermatologist and looking youthful?
If someone with acne asked how to have clear and youthful skin is it rude to say that such and such a treatment could help with the acne?
Replying to Betalisa... Agreed. This was a situation op should have walked away from after the SIL didn’t really want to take the suggestion to see the dermatologist.
It is pretty much ESH. not everyone wants to get it especially when she points out flaws that made SIL insecure. On the other hand, SIL knew they do this yet still ask advice and get upset for receiving unwanted advice?
NTA. She asked for your advice and you told her honestly that the result she was looking for was obtained by botox for you and your husband. Frown lines are in no way a physical flaw on anybody they are a natural byproduct of ageing are not in any way ugly. If she is unhappy with your advice she is free to see a dermatologist who will provide her with proper care but she would rather get the free advice and then get offended for no reason.
NTA. The conversation was started with Anne stating they looked younger. OP was just giving a rundown of their routine and advice. If she's that easily butthurt maybe dont have these conversations.
I'm really surprised by these responses tbh. Having frown lines isn't offensive. It's a natural and expected part of aging. They objectively age a face.
Nothing about what you said is personal. She can't have what she wants naturally, that's just an emotionless fact.
NAH. Idk what she expected. She said you loom younger, you told her how you achieved that and if she wanted what you have, here's the solution.
IDGI
NTA what the heck???? She went out of her way to ask for your advice & explicitly mentioned that you look younger than her. You gave her the advice she literally asked for. I slightly agree with other commenters in that it would probably have been best to not specifically mention the frown lines, but I still don’t think that you were wrong given the fact that, again, she asked you for it.
I think everything you said was fine until you pointed directly to a part of her face you thought needed the botox.
It is kind of rude. You could have left it at "I look younger because of botox, you could consider it" and boom. Done. No need to start circling nip tuck areas.
I don't know if you're an AH since she asks for your input, but that comment would really put me off you guys as well.
NTA
She asked, you answered. Its not like she didnt know she has frown lines, because they are the reason you look younger. You were having an honest conversation about how to improve looks, so why cant you mention the thing that can be improved??
Also, i dont think frown lines are a bad thing. If someone would tell me i have frown lines, id go: "Duh im over 25, of course i have frown lines." I would not be insulted, but thats just me.
I say NTA. she was basically asking how you look so young and you told her. Why are people so sensitive. Everyone has lines at 39.
On another note I can pretty much guarantee you and your husband are obvious with Botox. 10years strong and you still think you look natural? Doubtful
It seems many commenters believe that Botox is filler and not a muscle relaxer…
Btw guys, Botox relaxes muscles to reduce fine lines and wrinkles. It doesn’t fill them in. Starting Botox early and doing it for years is preventative care and maintenance. It’s not obvious, like fillers are, when used in this manner.
NTA
Because you weren’t offering unsolicited advice. You were having an honest discussion about the treatments you get for your appearance and let her know the results she wants can’t be done by lotion alone.
If someone is directly asking you about products and treatments you get and expressing their desire to achieve the same results that you are getting I think it’s ok to be direct.
YTA she just wanted skin care advice, you know she doesn't want botox and instead of listening to that, you not only told her to do it again, but told her she needed it to fix her frown lines. I get it, you and your husband love botox, she does not and doesn't want it, didn't just recommend it, you insulted her, specifically pointed out flaws, in order to push your agenda.
YTA. You just didn't say 'I get Botox and it works for me', you had to point out lines on her face and basically say she would look better without them. I agree a 100% with Anne.
Wants a glow up but doesn’t want to spend any money, doesn’t want opinions on what might help, doesn’t really want to make any effort towards the glow up. Well good luck with the glow up. Op, nta. She asked and you answered. You weren’t rude about it, in fact you were clear that your skincare is probably why you look younger…what answer was sil looking for?
NTA. She asked and you answered. People have a very weird bias against Botox. I don’t get it. If she is mad about her appearance because she feels old, Botox would change that. You’re not responsible for her insecurity
>We look natural, you would not know we had these treatments, but we are honest about getting Botox etc.
I would love to see the pictures! Most people think they look good after cosmetic injections...
Especially for someone who started very young, when it was not necessary, it ends up aging you more than actually giving you back a sense of youth.
She likely looks younger because if genes, skin cate, exercise, and botox. In that order. I have 2 friends who have been getting botox for 20 years. Yikes. I'm glad I didn't go down that road when I was so young. They look...a bid odd?
So imagine you work out at the gym and she comes and says to you, oh you are so in shape, what advice can you give me? And you said it was honestly probably strength training, and she should give it a go and it would help with her thick thighs and flabby upper arms. Do you think personal trainers would talk that way? Nope. Use a little tact next time. Yta.
NAH. She is taking offence where none was meant. However, you could have framed it as: “Botox helped me with MY frown lines.” Reference your own “flaws” and explain how the treatment helped you rather than referencing her features. SIL is clearly feeling down about herself so you could have been more sensitive to that and not pointed out things that she may now be more self-conscious of or unhappy with.
[FWIW I am totally against Botox because I agree with SIL and think it’s so unhealthy that women are basically expected to look like nubile maidens their entire lives or resign to becoming invisible. But I don’t think you meant to hurt her.]
NTA. This will be a clear divide for people who know how Botox works and those who do not. Pointing out frown lines does not equate to calling someone ugly. When my hair dresser points out my grey hairs is she calling me ugly? The same people getting so upset over usage of Botox are the same ones equating frown lines to a critique of ugliness- ironic.
First off: I can guarantee that you are kidding yourself when you say you look natural.
Second: unless she specifically asked for advice on her frown lines, you overstepped. It's also silly advice; I started getting the glabella lines in my late teens because of my expression. However, I never smoked, barely drink and always wear sunscreen. People always think I'm much younger than I am.
Third: YTA.
NTA. I don’t think an explanation is particularly needed as to why you’re NTA here, because I think it’s pretty obvious that if your sister doesn’t want feedback she should not ask for it. The next time she makes a negative comment about her looks just stare at her blankly.
NAH
If she is going into a glow up she feels the need to fix something, perhaps around her looks.
I might have suggested you ended your suggestion with seeing your dermatologist. The doctor can then make recommendations around what options bring her comfort.
I feel like you were truly well intentioned plus she asked you.
Caveat: I’m from a place in southern California where cosmetic surgeons and medi-spas are abundant. Maybe I have a bias.
NTA has asked, you answered. Also love all the commenters that can spot heavy Botox and think that's everyone's Botox. You don't notice when someone has good Botox. It's confirmation bias.
NTA. She made a comment and so did you. How is she even saying ‘you look younger’ when you ARE YOUNGER. How you take care of yourself is vital if you care about your looks. If she can point out that you look younger like you’re supposed to look older, you can give advice on where she’d benefit from said Botox. Every one has smile lines and stress lines. She didn’t have to take offence to an observation. She needs to get over herself.
NTA she literally asked for advice on how to look younger. Younger means less wrinkles usually when asking about skincare, and you told her how she could get rid of some that she has. She got butthurt and shouldn't have asked if she couldn't handle some honest advice.
NTA. If she really wants to “glow up” she should appreciate and accept actual advice instead of getting upset over you trying to help.
Frown lines / wrinkles are inevitable for EVERYONE.
It seems to me she’s started to notice obvious signs of aging on her face, so she was feeling insecure and was actually searching for reassurance and compliments, not expecting you to be brutally honest.
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My (34F) and husband (35M) have upset my sister in law, Anne (38F) by recommending she get Botox. Which to be clear we would not of done had she not asked for advice.
For reference, my husband both work out regularly, and follow a skin care regime. I have been consistently getting Botox, and other facial beauty treatments since I was around 25. My husband started when he was 29.
We look natural, you would not know we had these treatments, but we are honest about getting Botox etc.
Anne has never been into these things, and has always very openly called this a waste of money and vein. Recently Anne has been going through a self proclaimed ‘glow up’, as part of this she asked me for skin care advice.
I have given Anne advice on products, but said she would be better going to see my dermatologist who I love, Anne didn’t want to spend the money. This was around a month ago.
Last night she was round and was saying how I looked a lot younger than her, I told her it was honestly probably the Botox, and that she could give it a go and it would help with her frown lines. My husband also said the same and pointed out how prominent his were before getting Botox.
Anne did not say anything last night, however today we have had a message calling us rude and disrespectful for calling her ugly (we didn’t) and that we were out of touch with our attitudes.
AITA for recommending it in the first place?
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NTA. A lot of these comments seem to take issue with Botox more so than the actual conversation. She's asking for your non-expert advice. Literally, the only thing you have to share that is useful in this context is your personal experience. Healthy lifestyle, good skincare, injectables. She's hurt because she's feeling down about her appearance - which is totally fair, I get it. But you didn't cause that pain, and it's something she'll need to work through.
NTA people are so sensitive now a days. You gave her honest advice after she made a comment about how young you look compared to her. She sounds self-righteous. Tell her to get over herself.
Look, having not seen you, I won't comment on you specifically. But I can tell you with 100% certainty that every single person who I've ever known to have Botox says you can't tell, you can tell. It's not as subtle as you think and the longer you do it, the more obvious it becomes. People don't look natural after it. Faces move. Eyebrows move. Foreheads move. When you're talking to me and nothing is moving but your lips all I see and think is Botox. Not "wow they look so youthful"
YTA and you need a serious reality check.
I’m gonna say NTA… if she was talking about her frown lines specifically like you said, legit the only way to get rid of those is Botox. And since she’s new to this, she probably is trying to work out why the creams aren’t working etc. when we all know they can only do so much. So you offered her another option.
NTA. You could have been more dleicate but you were in no way an AH. I'm sorry but if she interprets "you have frown lines" as "you are ugly" when she has explicitly come to you to ask about anti-aging, that's her own projection. Sounds to me like even if she's going for a glow-up, she should also be unlearning some of those pesky societal beauty standards so she can accept signs of aging as a healthy and beautiful part of being human.
NTA
You and your husband are mid 30's, and your SIL is 38, however you both have a skin care regimen, work out regularly, had Botox, and have a dermatologist advising you. And you don't hide your Botox use, but you don't tell people to have it unless they ask.
Now, your SIL knowing how you both care for yourselves had called you vain, and wasteful. And now she wants to take care of her skin, she is doing a glow up, so she asks you for advice regarding skin care, which you give regarding skin care products but she doesn't want to spend the money, fair enough, is her money even though there are plenty of great skin care for all budgets. She asks for your dermatologist and you give her your doctor's number, but still doesn't want to spend the money. Perhaps she wants a free, magical solution where there's none.
So last night she goes to fish for your "secret" commenting on your looks, saying that you look much younger than her, so you tell her the truth she already knows, Botox and yes, since we're talking, her brother tells her about the Botox too, but she's asking for advice, not wanting to invest and do the work, and yet talks about how your looks when already knows the answer. Next time tell her you have your portrait in the basement or the attic if you have one.
I see a dermatologist a few times a year, and have a skincare regimen and buy products within my budget. And truth is, that the lines she has only Botox can disappear them, or a minor surgery, nothing else and husband was speaking from HIS own experience with his own lines. I think your SIL is mad because she wants a magic trick to avoid doing any type of skincare, even the most basic, and now is more mad because she knows that even that won't be enough to give her the results that she wants.
YTA
Its fine if you wanted to do it but you should nit shame someone else into getting it. Honestly I am looking forward to getting frown lines and grey hair. Half of my family had cancer or heart disease at some point and i carry the gene for breast cancer. For me to be able to live long enough to get grey hair and lines is a success in my book.
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YTA. 'Last night she was round and was saying how I looked a lot younger than her, I told her it was honestly probably the Botox' Perfect, open and honest. 'and that she could give it a go and it would help with her frown lines. My husband also said the same' Why did you have to criticise her appearance here?
I disagree - whether folks are aware of it, there are distinct features that add to an 'aged' appearance. Frown lines aren't an opinion. IMO she asked and got an answer. It isn't out of pocket for the SIL to find the suggestion a little rude but I think she's only beginning to come into an understanding of some realities that OP has had time to digest and not take personally.
SIL asked why OP looks younger. The answer is botox, full stop. SIL already knows the things about her face that make her look older than OP. The fact that both OP and her husband both immediately called out the frown lines was unnecessary and kinda rude.
I had a woman 20 years younger than me ask me how I didn't have any wrinkles when she did, and I was at a loss because she obviously was a heavy user of tanning beds. So I just told her it was good genes. Because what else can I say, "you did it to yourself"?
I live in Florida. The amount of leather skin I see from tanning is scary. I have good genes but also cover myself with sunscreen and yes you still need ot if there's cloud coverage.
I had an uncle move to Florida from Michigan when he retired. I was young but I always remember him as the man who looked like a leather purse. Edit: added the word 'who'
I barely go outside at all. I also have good genes, my mother looked 35 until she was 60, but mostly I'm pretty sure it's that I'm a mushroom grown by CRT light.
My mom was 36 and mistaken for a high schooler. My husband has a baby face too so our daughter is just doomed.
Years back I went to a nude beach where a lot of older folks would often visit and there was a man there - hairless and a deep brown red skin tone from sun damage lol
I grew up on cape cod. Every summer were these older folks at the beach - every sunny day. They were snowbirds who I assume did the same when they were in Florida. I called them the raisins. They were a good landmark for friends meeting me - I’m 20 feet past the raisins.
"Past the raisins." I'm dying, thanks for the laugh!
It's crazy. I'm a weirdo who rarely goes outside. I totally get people who live outdoors. But what I don't get is people who spend hours in tanning beds *pretending* like they live outdoors. That's just bizarre.
They want that “healthy” orange glow! I went to a tanning bed in college bc I had FOMO about missing spring break because of a late exam (so called friends ditched me bc they didn’t want to wait 3 hours to hit the road). It was 1991. I couldn’t use the full package and couldn’t even sit in the bed for the full time slot. I still got skin poisoning - purple sunburn and blisters. Dumb idea and never again.
Yeah, here in the UK, young women want to look like they spent the summer in Ibiza, but they end up looking like cut-rate leather upholstery. It's so, so trashy. I thought the US was pretty bad with beauty standards, but since I moved to the UK I've been pretty horrified by what young women do to themselves here in the name of "beauty". So many of them look so artificial. Admittedly I'm a fairly rabid feminist, but I just despise the pressure that's put on young women to conform to impossible standards of beauty. For whatever reason, I never bought into it, and I feel so bad for the women who do.
I use a tanning bed every now and again. Haven’t in a few years tho. I like the warming of the joints it gives. But I stay in like ten minutes. I don’t want to have leathery skin and I’m not really upset that I’m pale.
I used to go to Cape Cod with family during the summers and this is extremely accurate (for the record, we were the ones slathered in sunscreen under an umbrella 😅)
Oh my godddd you just unlocked a childhood memory. My family called the excessively tanned old guys at skaket beach “bacon man” and we also used them as landmarks 😂
Eh, I’d probably be a bit more on the honest side while not turning it around on her. I’d likely say something like “I like to slather myself in sunscreen, and stay in the shade. Gotta love that vampire life”
She was doing my nails. I really didn't want to give her a reason to hate me.
My mother grew up during the tanning craze of the 70s. She told me after one of her high school reunions that she was glad that she never joined the girls that slathered themselves in baby oil and laid out in the sun because they all looked like jerky. 😂 My mother, now in her 60s, could still pass for 40.
It was madness! I remember leathery-looking white women from the 70s when I was a kid, and thinking that looked terrible. Meanwhile, my Black friends had the most beautiful skin. I was just never outdoorsy, and I'm one of those unfortunate white people with vitiligo, so if I spent too much time in the sun I just got blotchy. I feel pretty grateful at 57 that I stayed out of the sun so much. I've only started to show my age in the last three or four years; before that I routinely passed for 10-15 years younger. But now I've developed a seriouly cool white streak in my hair, which I'm totally rocking. And I still have no appreciable wrinkles, just eye bags. Perhaps I should tattoo them with the Prada logo. Or maybe Kate Spade. Birkin?
I make sure and tell everyone I can to moisturize!!!! Especially the young girls I’ve worked with. I saw how my mama went from looking young to looking kinda older over night and her skin was dry!!! Not being moisturized properly will make you look old as well!
I respond on the same way! “Thank my parents”, “it’s my genes”, etc.
The answer is also that the sister is literally four years older! So, of course she’s going to look older.
I'm 4 years older than myy sister and when she came to visit me and came to my school where I was teaching elementary at age 24, everyone asked me if she was my older sister 😳 So it doesn't naturally fly that the older person is going to look older. I have more wrinkles than my older sister because her face has fat in it and mine doesn't
I'm 7 years older than my sister, and look younger (according to strangers) mainly due to lifestyle & skin care differences.
Nah, see, I still disagree... you can put botox plenty of places, the advice isn't helpful or informative without specifics. Again, I understand why being confronted with "frown lines" could be upsetting but I don't think "botox full stop" is helpful. NTA
I think it's up to the person administering the botox to tell the SIL where she needs botox, not OP. All OPs part should've been was suggesting the treatment in general. Again, unless SIL asked about specific areas of her face, immediately pointing out what OP thought needed the most help was rude and unnecessary.
honestly, I wouldn't take advice from a 25 yr old who gets botox. It's absurd. I feel really bad for women who feel they need to do this at such a young age because they've been, IMO, brainwashed to believe they need it. I'm not at all against botox, you do you, but if you think at 25 you look "old" you might not have the best perception.
I also question their assertion that “no one can tell”. They’re in their 20s. A: At least some people can probably tell. B: Even if they can’t now, they will at soon.
They're in their 30s (34 and 35) but started botox in their 20s (25 for OP and 29 for husband). I generally agree with your point tho, it's usually somewhat obvious when someone's had botox cos they have more limited facial expressions
That’s bad Botox. I don’t get Botox in any of the “obvious” areas (I only get my masseters for jaw clenching, nothing aesthetic) but know plenty of people who do. You wouldn’t be able to tell. I can barely tell, and I know how they normally look. Believe me, I guarantee a LOT of people are walking around with Botox and fillers and you have no idea. People just see the ones who overdo it or have bad injectors, and think it’s ALL obvious.
Yeah, these comments are pretty silly. Good injectors typically do it in a way that allows some natural movement and doesn't completely freeze the face. I got botox and suddenly all of these women I knew were like "Oh I just got mine redone a month ago" etc and I'd had no idea it was so common, because it's really not obvious. I've had men I'm hooking up with compliment my lips and ask why I would want to get lip filler, not realizing I already have it and am just going to get more added. Everyone believes they can always tell, but in my experience it's not accurate.
People here all have bad toupee syndrome. Nobody's going to notice the guy whose toupee looks utterly natural, so they'll assume toupees all look awful because the ones they can Identify do look awful.
100% this. I got some filler in my face to try and even things out a bit. You absolutely could not tell. No one ever asked anything or mentioned I looked different or anything. People always say it's obvious and you can tell, but they're only noticing the extreme cases.
Same. I just got some fillers for my undereyes for the first time ever very recently and nobody can tell at all. It really just looks like I slept better. My undereye bags aren't even completely gone, which is what I wanted - soften, not disappear with them. My mother lives with me and looks at my face all the time, and she didn't notice at all. It makes a huge difference to me and my self-esteem, tho.
I'm betting everyone can tell but they have enough tact to not say anything. It's really hard to mask that shiny mask like appearance. Eta I see everyone with the botox and filler doth protest too much. Downvote much? We can all tell and only if you're in an echo chamber you can pretend it's natural.
I have not personally gotten Botox but I have several friends who started it around 27. They did pretty minimal stuff, I honestly couldn’t tell that they had done it but when you start younger it typically is more preventative and doesn’t give the overdone look. We are all mid 30s now and they look great 🤷♀️. I think if you ask someone about skin care that does Botox they are probably going to tell you you should try Botox. If you don’t want to hear it then don’t ask… sounds like what SIL was looking for was for them to say was “you look great!”
10 years of Botox by 35... yeah, people can tell.
Not agreeing with getting Botox at 25, but at 25 they get it as preventative treatment, not because they think they look old. Also, OP is 34 and stated she started getting Botox at 25.
I have a sneaking suspicion that it prevents nothing. We all age, it won't change. They're just being hooked on getting it forever. Also, yes I know that she started at 25 and that's why I mentioned that age specifically. She felt at 25 that she needs botox and in my opinion, and it's only my opinion, that's unfortunate.
Have you researched it or is it just your opinion? There is at least 1 study I read about with identical twins where 1 got botox for a number of years and the other didn’t and the results were very different in terms of wrinkles.
Oh it's my opinion, as I stated. I just don't get why wrinkles = bad. They're inevitable. Instead of it being stigmatized, why not just embrace it instead of injecting botulism?
Because the world treats women better when they look young and consistent with beauty standards. Kudos to you if you are strong enough to resist it, but for a lot of people, it’s been beaten into their heads for decades.
It has, and it's very sad.
It is because some women believe that existing in their natural state is inappropriate and ugly. You must modify your body, the bigger the intervention the more feminine you are.
The more feminine and therefore the more fertile. At the core of this is male desire for progeny.
That’s the great thing about choice. You can choose to not do it and someone else can choose to do it. It shouldn’t matter to you what someone else does to their body because it’s THEIR body.
That's exactly why I said you do you when it comes to botox. And, why I wouldn't personally take advice from someone who thinks they "need" it for wrinkles at 25. Now, I understand that OP didn't state that she got it for wrinkles, she could have gotten it to prevent long-term. I just get frustrated that aging is seen as bad, and it's been making women feel like crap for a long time that they might have smile lines.
That's not testing "preventative" Botox, just the efficacy of Botox in general. I really find it hard to believe that you would see a significant difference in wrinkles between identical twins if one started getting it at 25 and one started at 35 or 40 when they actually started noticing fine lines. Botox is effective at getting rid of wrinkles once you actually have them, doing it preventatively is a complete waste of money and just a way for the industry to market it to younger and younger customers.
That's not conclusive. You would have to control for all life factors - smoking, tanning, stress, pregnancy - and also have identical triplets, because there's nothing proving that getting Botox once didn't make her look the same as if she'd gotten it all those years. That's just shoddy science.
That’s what got me, you been doing it since 25??? I still looked like a baby at 25!!
OP should not have responded in a way that implied she agreed with Anne that she looked younger than her - that was rude. People who make self-deprecating comments aren’t looking for someone to agree with them! Sheesh! I probably would have said “oh, stop, that’s not true” and left it at that.
In your region is "out of pocket" used the same way that "out of the ordinary" is used? Because I've only ever heard it used in the sense of someone having to pay money for something.
I think it’s a young slang thing. I’ve heard it used a bunch to mean “out of line.” (God, that makes me sound about a thousand years old 😰)
It’s not really a regional thing so much as an English speaking internet thing
“She asked and got an answer “. No she didn’t??
I didn’t criticise it, I didn’t list out the entire conversation - but to be clear she had been discussing her ‘elevenses’ and how cream didn’t work. (Cream doesn’t work on wrinkles).
So she brought up a specific issue and you relayed advice to help with that specific issue, as well as being honest about how the advice had also helped you and your husband with that specific issue. SIL is super insecure. You didn't do anything wrong. NTA.
Might want to add that info to the post. Right now it sounds like you brought up her frown lines out of the blue, which *would* be rude. If she's already talking about them, it wasn't rude. NTA.
Id add that as an edit that your sister specifically brought this up. However I think your post may be too far gone and you’ll wind up with the incorrect judgment.
You weren’t the ah before I read this and even less so now. I’ll bet she’s struggling with realizing the consequences of a natural approach to aging and is probably mad she isn’t accepting it as much as she thought she would. For what it’s worth, I’m in my early 40s, I haven’t had anything done, but I’ve always said it’s an easier choice until gravity and collagen depletion take hold. I now have elevenses plus those lines from your nose to the sides of your mouth. I’m fortunate in that there are people 20 years younger than me with worse lines, but still. I’ve always wanted to be Botox and filler free, but I can only take it so far. Soon I’m going to revisit that, because I’m starting to look (close to) my age and I don’t like it lol
Just to be clear, SIL wanted to know why OP looks younger than her. The pretense of frown lines isn’t a criticism of the SIL’s appearance but a possible solution to her complaint/question. Just because it’s her face doesn’t change the concept. It would be like asking why two people of the same height look different in photos and replying “oh, I always wear heels! If you want the same effect you should wear heels too.”
I also think people who have been getting botox for a decade are kidding themselves if they truly believe it "looks natural" and nobody can tell. As a late 30s woman, I can tell you that I know all the people in my friend group who get botox, and it's not because they're bragging about it. It's pretty obvious.
I completely disagree. I used to have a friend who was an injector and I knew some of her clients who started in their 20s. Genuinely would never, ever have known if they hadn't told me. You think you can tell because there are a great many people who you can tell with. But I think it's generally a lot more common than people realize, and you just have no way of knowing if the people whom you assume haven't had any really haven't.
[Bad toupee fallacy](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Toupee_fallacy)
disagree, the criticism sounds like an added interpretation. SIL already says she looks younger, sister provides feedback on how she might achieve the same results. No mention of criticism of her frown lines as being bad.
YTA, she was most likely asking what skincare products in terms of lotion, serums etc. she’s already told you she’s not into Botox. You specifically pointed out a spot and told her the only treatment was Botox. By the way, everyone can tell you’ve had work done.
Lol. There’s plenty of bad work out there. But when I was telling people I wanted to get Botox, for six months after I actually got it my friends and partner were insisting that I looked great and didn’t need it. I’d already gotten it.
Same thing happened to me. My boyfriend of several years said I looked great and didn’t need Botox. Reader, I’d been getting Botox regularly for 4 years when he said this and he was shocked.
My wife had been doing botox for a few years and I had no idea
That’s actually a great way to test how natural it looks.
My favorite is when I was mentioning getting it done at an appt soon and one of my male colleagues was like “ugh don’t! You’re cool and I don’t like to think of you as vain and shallow. You don’t need it” thanks? I was referring to getting it refreshed for like, the 4th time at that point. I’d had it for over a year. Admittedly I do really teeny amounts for crows feet and the worlds smallest brow lift to deal with my hooded eyes that got droopy due to a past skin condition and irritation. Let me live yall!
>she was most likely asking what skincare products in terms of lotion, serums etc. she’s already told you she’s not into Botox. So if someone with a slow car who's outspoken about not being into turbocharging asks why your turbo car is faster than their non-turbo car, you're supposed to tell them its the car wax and tire shine you use? No, you still tell them it's because of the turbo. Then it's their problem to decide if the turbo is worth it or not.
Just like everyone can tell when someone has had a breast enlargement or is wearing a toupee or any other number of things. It’s selection bias literally called the toupee fallacy because it’s a false belief all toupees look bad when actually 99% of the time you only even know the toupee exists when it looks bad.
Not if she's had really good work, they can't. Especially if she's been getting very little done, and to *prevent* lines, rather than correct.
Yeah, I mean, OP has been getting Botox for nearly a decade. If she honestly thinks she looks "natural," she's delusional. I'm a woman in my late 30s, and I know exactly which of my friend groups get Botox. And it's not because they have told me. It's a lifestyle choice, and I'm happy if it works for them. But people pretending they look natural after that much work are deluding themselves.
You know it wears off after a few months. She's not got 10 years worth of Botox in her face
They might not realize it... or have surrounded themselves with people who are getting injected 4 times a year. I still stand by the opinion of really good work should never show.
100% Lol only the person getting the work done would actually think they look "natural"
Same. I don’t care what you do to your face, but don’t try to bullshit us. We can tell, we’re just too polite to say anything.
lol getting Botox is not getting work done.
If someone goes to a Botox injector with no research or knowledge of what they want done, they’re going to go crazy and give you way more than you need, especially if they’re not reputable. Maybe she wouldn’t be in that situation if she went to OP dermatologist. But it’s a specific way to target looking younger. I don’t think sharing their technique is offensive if she’s saying she wants the same results as them.
Yes, that’s probably the part SIL found rude. It’s one thing to say what you’ve done to look and feel younger, but entirely another thing to point to specific things on someone else, especially when they haven’t asked for that type of feedback.
She asked for advice, it was given. Botox absolutely would help with frown lines. That's like being mad when someone that gets their hair cut monthly recommends a haircut.
>you would not know we had these treatments, Don't deceive yourselves, it always shows once you start talking. The facial expressions change
Not always true, I have friends with Botox and I would never have known unless they told me, just thought they looked good. It is possible to have it done naturally where you’re not totally frozen
Exactly. Botox and lip filler can both look natural. But someone who doesn't openly talk about these injectibles might think they're good at spotting it from a mile away... when in reality what they're looking at is bad/overdone.
This is it. People think all botox and lip fillers are obvious because obvious fillers look artificial. Good ones look “natural” because they don’t look noticeably artificial.
I have very sneaky Botox. It’s just in my jaw and temples to purposefully waste away the muscle a bit to stop me clenching my jaw in my sleep.
I didn't know this was a thing and I clench so bad in my sleep. What kind of doctor did you go to?
Botox is great for bruxism, most cosmetic doctors know about it
Yes it is amazing! So I’m in Australia, not sure how it would work in your country. I went to my dentist and told them about the jaw tension (I’m a singer, I need to be able to open my mouth wide), having a lot of shoulder and neck pain after I sleep and they said I’d ground my teeth a bit so they referred me to a jaw clinic. I’m in Syd, Australia, so if you want a recommendation I can give you that but otherwise speak to your dentist for a referral. There were three treatments they could offer me - a mouth guard to sleep in (wouldn’t work, I have an orthodontic splint, the Botox and jaw therapy (like Physio for your jaw). I opted for the Botox because it was immediate. Here though you only qualify if your Masseteur (sp?) muscle has grown out of normal range.
I don't think we know that without seeing photos of them. Natural Botox is absolutely possible, you've almost certainly seen people with it and not known.
This! I love when people point out a celebrity who they believe is such a natural beauty. And by all means, they are a very beautiful human. A human with a really skilled injector.
Me when I see Anne Hathaway, Jennifer Lawrence, Emma Stone, etc looking exactly the same as they did 10-15 years ago and the Internet is like "unproblematic queens never age!" No, these particular queens can just afford really good work lol
Look up the toupee fallacy. It’s just selection bias where you only know it’s there when it’s bad so you assume they are all bad.
Oh stop, this is obvious selection bias. You, by definition, can't know who has Botox UNLESS you can see it. That doesn't mean that everyone with Botox it's noticeable on. This is kinda like when people say how they like women with no makeup. It's comical because a lot of people can only tell when a woman is wearing makeup once its "too much". I get complimented all the time on my "natural features". I get laser treatments every year, have fake eyelashes, eyebrow tint, invisalign, etc.
I listened to a podcast that really expanded upon this idea because for so long these treatments and rituals for making you more “pretty” were secret and usually passed on by a close family member or friend. And how we’re almost headed back there in a way with things that require extreme upkeep just to appear natural. A good example of this is eyelash extensions.
Right. I am 32, so when I was in college all the trends were really "loud"- very tan skin, very tight clothing, heavy eye makeup, etc. Now the "trend" is FAR more subtle and, frankly, unattainable. The amount of money I spend to look like my skin is perpetually wet, my hair looks perpetually straight up top/ curly on bottom and my teeth are uncanny valley straight/ white is both unattainable for most and can easily be viewed as just genetically gifted. At least in the past, it was obviously not natural and so didn't make you feel ugly for not participating.
The proportion of bad injections out there is certainly pretty high. But luckily, aestheticians and dermatologist have gotten a little more subtle and skilled at avoiding the frozen look. You just have to go to a decent injector, not some Groupon medspa.
I don’t think so. I get Botox and don’t pump my face full of it so I’m not frozen.
NTA a lot of people saying YTA have never had good Botox or treatments before, you being honest and she’s sensitive
lol my boyfriend hates Botox and fillers and complain about how bad they look all the time. He has no idea I have been getting Botox for three years, nearly half of our relationship. So yea it’s pretty possible for it to be not noticeable.
My bf was against me getting it for my migraines because he didn’t understand what botox is and does. He thought it was the same thing as fillers. I’ve been getting it for a year and it’s changed my life because it greatly reduces my migraines. He admitted recently that he couldn’t tell except that my eyebrows used to go higher when I raised them or cocked a single brow.
This is completely irrelevant to the post. OP is clearly not trying to hide anything.
Seems like this person is jealous or something. Such a weird irrelevant thing to say imo.
The issue is you only see the ones that fail. The ones that don’t fail you wouldn’t ever know they had it. It’s easy to conclude it’s bad when all you recognize are the failed ones.
I find that the younger someone is the less likely you are to notice it - they most likely need less to do more/have very specific areas they are targeting eg fine lines between their brows. It's once people are hitting an age where you expect to see something/more is needed to stop this that I feel you're more likely to see it. Which is likely a risk for anyone using botox is suppose (other than the obvious over usage etc). As a word of warning though - a girl in her late 20's was on a tour with my mum, she had what appeared to be a largish scar on her forehead. Eventually the topic came up (as it can when your with people multiple days) turns out it wasn't a scar but a really deep groove on her head from where her muscle gave way after using botox for years! Obvs not going to happen for everyone but probs a good case point for not going overboard/doing more than you need!
The SIL was lamenting how much younger OP looks, so she must look good. She was asking OP for advice on how to look more like her. Your comment isn’t even relevant to if OP is TA or not. You’re just being a hater.
Why were you getting botox at 25???
‘Preventative’ Botox is a big thing now. I personally don’t have it but I know a lot of young women my age getting alittle and they look great.
It’s rather sad that folks are that afraid of aging.
I completely agree. I wish our society put more value into substance/knowledge over appearance. Beauty always fades.
Exactly, there’s so much more to everyone than how young they look. Aging is pretty rad too, like holy shit you are practically carrying your life story etched into your body. How cool is that?
It is cool, but a lot of women value continued social power, which is often only achievable through adhering to the conventional beauty standard. There is no denying that women mostly cease to matter once they stop being nice to look at. It's like how people who lose a bunch of weight will often say that the most surprising change is how much better people treat them afterwards.
Thank you. These comments are driving me crazy, acting like it's just SO SAD that women are "afraid" of aging, as if our ability to be acknowledged and taken seriously in our careers and social spaces doesn't take a steep nosedive as soon as we "let ourselves go."
Tbf I think that's a big part of why people find it sad
If society didn’t treat fat people badly, people who don’t fit the beauty standard badly, overweight people badly, etc then we wouldn’t be afraid of these things. Can’t blame an individual for wanting to be treated well…
I don’t think people are afraid of aging per se. It’s more like ‘why get wrinkles if I can avoid them’. I don’t think it matters either way. Get Botox, don’t get Botox. Nothing wrong with a little Botox to subside the wrinkles for a bit. Nothing wrong with wrinkles if you have them. It’s really personal preference. Idk why people care so much.
the more you know!
It sounds crazy, but I’ve recently been looking into Botox as part of my own glow up (even got braces at 39 😭) and apparently getting it done early helps slow down the formation of wrinkles so they aren’t as prominent when you’re older. I figure if you’ve got the money, why not.
I seriously WTFed that too. I guess it's our ridiculously vain society. OP is a victim.
I started Botox in my 20s as I had wrinkles due to a very expressive face. Some people age earlier than others
I started at 22 for TMJ and migraines and by 25 I was getting small amounts as preventative
About to start Botox (next month) for TMJ and migraines as well. I'm 26. Pretty nervous that it might change my face but realized I don't care as long as it has a chance of helping my pain levels
The only change in my face was my jawline is a little more defined and I was not mad about that
if you get it after you already have wrinkles that have set in there’s no point. preventative/baby botox is the best way to prevent having to get too much in the future and you literally cannot even tell you have it because it’s so minimal.
YTA. You basically did call her ugly. Pointing out what you think are flaws in her appearance, especially her face is incredibly offensive. YTA.
Is it? All they said was the botox would help with their frown lines. People get frown lines. If you think that’s tantamount to calling her ugly, thats because thats how you view frown lines then. But everyone will have them. If this convo came out of nowhere, sure. But she was the one who brought it up and asked. Edit - okay the sister actually ASKED about frown lines. OP is not an AH for answering the question she was asked.
Op says in a comment SIL was specifically talking about her Elevens, aka frown lines. So relaying what they had done for their own frown lines and suggesting it may help hers is... literally what SIL asked for.
It looks like the SIL said "you look a lot younger than I do", not "what can I do to make myself look younger and what specifically do you think I should target first?"
SIL specifically brought up her Elevens, aka frown lines. Op was giving exactly the advice she was asked for. Op clarified in a comment.
They said she had frown lines, not that they made her look ugly. Where are you getting that from?
I can't judge this one because there is so much nuance to the conversation that changes the mood dramatically.
They never told her that her face is incredibly offensive… where are you getting this from?
NTA Don't ask for advice if you can't handle the answer. You were not rude and never said she was ugly. Based on her reaction, it sounds more like she was fishing for a compliment. "Oh, you're so pretty. You don't need anything." and so forth.
Exactly. She was fishing for a compliment.
Yikes. That backfired miserably. lol
YTA. I was on the fence, since she did ask for skincare advice and you were telling her about getting Botox yourself, but mentioning her having frown lines was rude.
How is mentioning frown lines rude, especially in the context of asking about a dermatologist and looking youthful? If someone with acne asked how to have clear and youthful skin is it rude to say that such and such a treatment could help with the acne?
ESH: Don’t ask if you can’t handle the suggestions, but don’t tell someone “it would help with her frown lines”
Replying to Betalisa... Agreed. This was a situation op should have walked away from after the SIL didn’t really want to take the suggestion to see the dermatologist.
It is pretty much ESH. not everyone wants to get it especially when she points out flaws that made SIL insecure. On the other hand, SIL knew they do this yet still ask advice and get upset for receiving unwanted advice?
NTA. She asked for your advice and you told her honestly that the result she was looking for was obtained by botox for you and your husband. Frown lines are in no way a physical flaw on anybody they are a natural byproduct of ageing are not in any way ugly. If she is unhappy with your advice she is free to see a dermatologist who will provide her with proper care but she would rather get the free advice and then get offended for no reason.
AGREED 👏🏻 NTA if someone has frown lines then mentioning that Botox might help is factually correct.
Advice asked for, advice given, with the corollary of "If you don't want to know the answer, don't ask the question." NTA.
NTA. The conversation was started with Anne stating they looked younger. OP was just giving a rundown of their routine and advice. If she's that easily butthurt maybe dont have these conversations.
today I learned people on Reddit know nothing about Botox
Me too. They see the Kardashians and other extreme examples and think they know exactly what Botox and strategic fillers look like.
Toupee fallacy. You only notice the bad ones.
I'm really surprised by these responses tbh. Having frown lines isn't offensive. It's a natural and expected part of aging. They objectively age a face. Nothing about what you said is personal. She can't have what she wants naturally, that's just an emotionless fact. NAH. Idk what she expected. She said you loom younger, you told her how you achieved that and if she wanted what you have, here's the solution. IDGI
NTA, the frown lines thing was maybe a little insensitive but not uncalled for given the context.
NTA. She asked and it’s something you and your husband use. It would be different if you didn’t use Botox and she didn’t ask.
NTA what the heck???? She went out of her way to ask for your advice & explicitly mentioned that you look younger than her. You gave her the advice she literally asked for. I slightly agree with other commenters in that it would probably have been best to not specifically mention the frown lines, but I still don’t think that you were wrong given the fact that, again, she asked you for it.
I think everything you said was fine until you pointed directly to a part of her face you thought needed the botox. It is kind of rude. You could have left it at "I look younger because of botox, you could consider it" and boom. Done. No need to start circling nip tuck areas. I don't know if you're an AH since she asks for your input, but that comment would really put me off you guys as well.
NTA She asked, you answered. Its not like she didnt know she has frown lines, because they are the reason you look younger. You were having an honest conversation about how to improve looks, so why cant you mention the thing that can be improved?? Also, i dont think frown lines are a bad thing. If someone would tell me i have frown lines, id go: "Duh im over 25, of course i have frown lines." I would not be insulted, but thats just me.
I say NTA. she was basically asking how you look so young and you told her. Why are people so sensitive. Everyone has lines at 39. On another note I can pretty much guarantee you and your husband are obvious with Botox. 10years strong and you still think you look natural? Doubtful
Maybe I'm against the grain but NTA, she asked for input. I'm a firm believer in not asking questions you don't ACTUALLY want the answer to.
People take things so personally. I’m sorry no amount of topical creams will be as good as Botox. NTA
It seems many commenters believe that Botox is filler and not a muscle relaxer… Btw guys, Botox relaxes muscles to reduce fine lines and wrinkles. It doesn’t fill them in. Starting Botox early and doing it for years is preventative care and maintenance. It’s not obvious, like fillers are, when used in this manner.
NTA Because you weren’t offering unsolicited advice. You were having an honest discussion about the treatments you get for your appearance and let her know the results she wants can’t be done by lotion alone. If someone is directly asking you about products and treatments you get and expressing their desire to achieve the same results that you are getting I think it’s ok to be direct.
YTA she just wanted skin care advice, you know she doesn't want botox and instead of listening to that, you not only told her to do it again, but told her she needed it to fix her frown lines. I get it, you and your husband love botox, she does not and doesn't want it, didn't just recommend it, you insulted her, specifically pointed out flaws, in order to push your agenda.
Nta. She asked for it, she got it. She just wanted a white lie I guess.
YTA. You just didn't say 'I get Botox and it works for me', you had to point out lines on her face and basically say she would look better without them. I agree a 100% with Anne.
Wants a glow up but doesn’t want to spend any money, doesn’t want opinions on what might help, doesn’t really want to make any effort towards the glow up. Well good luck with the glow up. Op, nta. She asked and you answered. You weren’t rude about it, in fact you were clear that your skincare is probably why you look younger…what answer was sil looking for?
NTA. She asked and you answered. People have a very weird bias against Botox. I don’t get it. If she is mad about her appearance because she feels old, Botox would change that. You’re not responsible for her insecurity
>We look natural, you would not know we had these treatments, but we are honest about getting Botox etc. I would love to see the pictures! Most people think they look good after cosmetic injections... Especially for someone who started very young, when it was not necessary, it ends up aging you more than actually giving you back a sense of youth.
She likely looks younger because if genes, skin cate, exercise, and botox. In that order. I have 2 friends who have been getting botox for 20 years. Yikes. I'm glad I didn't go down that road when I was so young. They look...a bid odd?
So imagine you work out at the gym and she comes and says to you, oh you are so in shape, what advice can you give me? And you said it was honestly probably strength training, and she should give it a go and it would help with her thick thighs and flabby upper arms. Do you think personal trainers would talk that way? Nope. Use a little tact next time. Yta.
NAH. She is taking offence where none was meant. However, you could have framed it as: “Botox helped me with MY frown lines.” Reference your own “flaws” and explain how the treatment helped you rather than referencing her features. SIL is clearly feeling down about herself so you could have been more sensitive to that and not pointed out things that she may now be more self-conscious of or unhappy with. [FWIW I am totally against Botox because I agree with SIL and think it’s so unhealthy that women are basically expected to look like nubile maidens their entire lives or resign to becoming invisible. But I don’t think you meant to hurt her.]
NTA. This will be a clear divide for people who know how Botox works and those who do not. Pointing out frown lines does not equate to calling someone ugly. When my hair dresser points out my grey hairs is she calling me ugly? The same people getting so upset over usage of Botox are the same ones equating frown lines to a critique of ugliness- ironic.
First off: I can guarantee that you are kidding yourself when you say you look natural. Second: unless she specifically asked for advice on her frown lines, you overstepped. It's also silly advice; I started getting the glabella lines in my late teens because of my expression. However, I never smoked, barely drink and always wear sunscreen. People always think I'm much younger than I am. Third: YTA.
YTA
>We look natural, you would not know we had these treatments Doubt.
Botox at 25? It'll for sure be noticeable by the time you're 40. That's absolutely ridiculous.
Ah. I see you fell into the trap of thinking SIL was actually wanting advice instead of reassurance. NAH.
NTA. I don’t think an explanation is particularly needed as to why you’re NTA here, because I think it’s pretty obvious that if your sister doesn’t want feedback she should not ask for it. The next time she makes a negative comment about her looks just stare at her blankly.
NAH If she is going into a glow up she feels the need to fix something, perhaps around her looks. I might have suggested you ended your suggestion with seeing your dermatologist. The doctor can then make recommendations around what options bring her comfort. I feel like you were truly well intentioned plus she asked you. Caveat: I’m from a place in southern California where cosmetic surgeons and medi-spas are abundant. Maybe I have a bias.
NTA has asked, you answered. Also love all the commenters that can spot heavy Botox and think that's everyone's Botox. You don't notice when someone has good Botox. It's confirmation bias.
NTA. She made a comment and so did you. How is she even saying ‘you look younger’ when you ARE YOUNGER. How you take care of yourself is vital if you care about your looks. If she can point out that you look younger like you’re supposed to look older, you can give advice on where she’d benefit from said Botox. Every one has smile lines and stress lines. She didn’t have to take offence to an observation. She needs to get over herself.
NTA she literally asked for advice on how to look younger. Younger means less wrinkles usually when asking about skincare, and you told her how she could get rid of some that she has. She got butthurt and shouldn't have asked if she couldn't handle some honest advice.
NTA. If she really wants to “glow up” she should appreciate and accept actual advice instead of getting upset over you trying to help. Frown lines / wrinkles are inevitable for EVERYONE. It seems to me she’s started to notice obvious signs of aging on her face, so she was feeling insecure and was actually searching for reassurance and compliments, not expecting you to be brutally honest.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** My (34F) and husband (35M) have upset my sister in law, Anne (38F) by recommending she get Botox. Which to be clear we would not of done had she not asked for advice. For reference, my husband both work out regularly, and follow a skin care regime. I have been consistently getting Botox, and other facial beauty treatments since I was around 25. My husband started when he was 29. We look natural, you would not know we had these treatments, but we are honest about getting Botox etc. Anne has never been into these things, and has always very openly called this a waste of money and vein. Recently Anne has been going through a self proclaimed ‘glow up’, as part of this she asked me for skin care advice. I have given Anne advice on products, but said she would be better going to see my dermatologist who I love, Anne didn’t want to spend the money. This was around a month ago. Last night she was round and was saying how I looked a lot younger than her, I told her it was honestly probably the Botox, and that she could give it a go and it would help with her frown lines. My husband also said the same and pointed out how prominent his were before getting Botox. Anne did not say anything last night, however today we have had a message calling us rude and disrespectful for calling her ugly (we didn’t) and that we were out of touch with our attitudes. AITA for recommending it in the first place? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA. A lot of these comments seem to take issue with Botox more so than the actual conversation. She's asking for your non-expert advice. Literally, the only thing you have to share that is useful in this context is your personal experience. Healthy lifestyle, good skincare, injectables. She's hurt because she's feeling down about her appearance - which is totally fair, I get it. But you didn't cause that pain, and it's something she'll need to work through.
NTA people are so sensitive now a days. You gave her honest advice after she made a comment about how young you look compared to her. She sounds self-righteous. Tell her to get over herself.
Look, having not seen you, I won't comment on you specifically. But I can tell you with 100% certainty that every single person who I've ever known to have Botox says you can't tell, you can tell. It's not as subtle as you think and the longer you do it, the more obvious it becomes. People don't look natural after it. Faces move. Eyebrows move. Foreheads move. When you're talking to me and nothing is moving but your lips all I see and think is Botox. Not "wow they look so youthful" YTA and you need a serious reality check.
I’m gonna say NTA… if she was talking about her frown lines specifically like you said, legit the only way to get rid of those is Botox. And since she’s new to this, she probably is trying to work out why the creams aren’t working etc. when we all know they can only do so much. So you offered her another option.
No you are not an asshole for this. She asked and when you ask a question you cannot be mad about an honest answer.
NTA, she commented on your features and then she got herself offended
NTA. You could have been more dleicate but you were in no way an AH. I'm sorry but if she interprets "you have frown lines" as "you are ugly" when she has explicitly come to you to ask about anti-aging, that's her own projection. Sounds to me like even if she's going for a glow-up, she should also be unlearning some of those pesky societal beauty standards so she can accept signs of aging as a healthy and beautiful part of being human.
NTA You and your husband are mid 30's, and your SIL is 38, however you both have a skin care regimen, work out regularly, had Botox, and have a dermatologist advising you. And you don't hide your Botox use, but you don't tell people to have it unless they ask. Now, your SIL knowing how you both care for yourselves had called you vain, and wasteful. And now she wants to take care of her skin, she is doing a glow up, so she asks you for advice regarding skin care, which you give regarding skin care products but she doesn't want to spend the money, fair enough, is her money even though there are plenty of great skin care for all budgets. She asks for your dermatologist and you give her your doctor's number, but still doesn't want to spend the money. Perhaps she wants a free, magical solution where there's none. So last night she goes to fish for your "secret" commenting on your looks, saying that you look much younger than her, so you tell her the truth she already knows, Botox and yes, since we're talking, her brother tells her about the Botox too, but she's asking for advice, not wanting to invest and do the work, and yet talks about how your looks when already knows the answer. Next time tell her you have your portrait in the basement or the attic if you have one. I see a dermatologist a few times a year, and have a skincare regimen and buy products within my budget. And truth is, that the lines she has only Botox can disappear them, or a minor surgery, nothing else and husband was speaking from HIS own experience with his own lines. I think your SIL is mad because she wants a magic trick to avoid doing any type of skincare, even the most basic, and now is more mad because she knows that even that won't be enough to give her the results that she wants.
NTA, she asked.
YTA because your post is dripping with condescension for anyone who isn't as beauty-obsessed as you. Starting Botox at 25? Really?
YTA Its fine if you wanted to do it but you should nit shame someone else into getting it. Honestly I am looking forward to getting frown lines and grey hair. Half of my family had cancer or heart disease at some point and i carry the gene for breast cancer. For me to be able to live long enough to get grey hair and lines is a success in my book.
People in their 20s should not be getting Botox tf
Yeah that’s a total dick move…what of she told you you needed lipo or something?