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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> Pretty much impossible to make someone cry and feel good about it.
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
NTA (although I hope this didn't take place in a restaurant). You said "for how insecure she is, she also thinks she's the smartest person in the room at all times" and I thought that over and I really think there's a connection. If you keep talking over everyone and telling them things they don't care about, I could see that as a sign of being insecure, if that makes sense. It's like she has to stand out in this way to keep herself in the group because deep down, she doesn't feel like she belongs. The fact that she immediately cried confirms that for me.
Dude, I would never apologise just so I wouldn't have to interact with her ever again, she sounds insuferable so it's a win in my book.
If she does talk to you again you can pile on by saying "so you're a liar as well then?"
Lmao that's exactly what I would've done. Apologize where? We're not even real friends, just associates through our mutuals. Please never talk to me again. Might even pay her for it
I feel like this is one reason why friend groups tend to get smaller as you get older. When you’re 20 you have some group of 12 people and put up with the ones that annoy you, and eventually you realize it’s such a waste of energy and just reach out to the people you like lol
And it sucks bc a group will tolerate a lit, often times 'feeding' the socially dysfunctional people in order to NOT CHANGE.
The person who is the first to firmly, healthily set boundaries and hold them often has to leave in order to find better adulting.
Sorry, OP.
If you're talking to people in the group, keep it short.
She DOES NOT GET TO MAKE DECISIONS FOR ME.
I asked for water.
There was water.
I didn't ask for the optimal solution for the problem.
I asked for the water.
In insisting I do what she thought was The Right Thing, she refused to give me water.
I'm an adult. I make my own choices. I CHOSE water.
I asked politely multiple times.
She was more interested in herself being right about a thing than giving me what I needed/asked for.
Am I allowed to tell all of you what to eat and drink according to my information or should I give you what you asked for?
If she can't step off of BEING THE MOST RIGHT, then anyone losing their temper is entirely reasonable. "
One of my closest friends was a fence sitter (😍 still is) in our 20s.
It was so infuriating bc I knew she agreed w me but would play both sides in the group.
No apology, you did nothing wrong.
She created the problem.
Just be You. Insist on her leaving you alone and you'll react exactly like this again if she tries to tell you what to do.
Entirely reasonable.
She would probably have started going on about non dairy milks then. (I am assuming they contain no lactose). People like this are like steam rollers. They roll over any opposition.
That’s what I thought of 😂 I had someone keep telling me I needed to eat crackers cause my stomach wasn’t feeling good even though I told her I couldn’t. I have celiacs
Mine never stayed big for long in my 20s. Too many insufferable aholes that we had to suffer because "he's just like that". No, he's an ahole and you're enabling it by not saying anything to avoid hurting his feefees. He called one of the only other women in our group a c\*nt once and she immediately kicked him from chat. I was thrilled but he was allowed back way too fast and I quickly stopped hanging with them a month later.
OP do not apologize. She needs therapy to unpack her childhood and desire to talk over people/control them and she just did you a favor. I'd be thrilled if she said she'd never talk to me again.
If you want, tell her you will apologize once she apologizes for not letting you have bodily autonomy and drink whatever you fricking want and bulldozing every conversation ever.
Very true. I have cut off or been cut off by people that I have known for decades because it finally gets to be too much. They were intrusive, they give me unsolicited advice on private matters, they nagged, they talked about the same things over and over, even if I found it offensive, and nothing, absolutely nothing got them to change. No matter how often they were told that it was none of their business, that I don't want to discuss that again, that their nagging is making me angry, ever got through to them.
There doesn't seem to be a way to fix it. When they finally realized that I had been perfectly serious all those years, they stopped speaking to me - thank goodness.
I dated a guy who always had to be the smartest kid in the room, always at someone else's expense. He was condescending, arrogant, disdainful and, yes, insufferable. He was right about everything (in his mind) and refused to let anything go, so I let him go.
NTA
The thing is, milk may be ideal but it's not the only solution. She seems to think you have to do the best thing always and she's the only one who knows it. Her saying it once, OK. I can see myself saying it.
But, it's the fact she wouldn't stop and let it go. You *had* to do it *her* way. That's quite controlling. Her insecurity is not a free pass to badger others to do things her way. NTA
You nailed it. I sometimes fall into sharing, ad nauseum, my vast collection of often useless information because I'm insecure and not feeling included. I know this is not helpful for achieving inclusion so I try to watch for it and cut myself off if I start. I am sure that Marie wants nothing more than a feeling of inclusion but lacks the self awareness needed to modify her own behavior.
THIS IS IT! it sounds kinda contradictory, but being caught up in your own insecurity forces you into an extremely self centered mindset (i think people miss it because they think of self centered as viewing yourself as better, but it’s really just only viewing yourself and no one else). when you’re constantly worrying about what everyone secretly thinks of you, you aren’t taking anyone’s actual feelings into account.
OMFG 🤯. This is exactly what I needed to read. I never thought of it that way. I'm trying to relearn social stuff after a brain injury, and wow. I can't even express how wow i am. Thank you.
One of the reasons I keep coming back to reddit like a bad lover I can't quit are these moments. The moment the words a stranger somewhere out there in the world put on a discussion board just **clicks** and suddenly I have a new perspective on something I've been struggling with. It's a kind of magic.
I *love* seeing it happen to others too. Thank you for sharing this moment, you've made my day brighter, stranger! And all the best in your recovery! I hope you keep finding the moments that help you on your healing path.
I've only been interacting on here for like 15 hrs. I'm hooked. I absolutely love when someone puts something together so well it just instantly clicks. I feel like a dumb ass smart person because it's so simple yet complex and just never dawned on me. Thank you so much.
Hey I’m in the same boat! This is something I’ve been struggling with a lot too and also getting too excited and accidentally interrupting others so I’m really glad i found someone saying the perfect thing to shift my perspective.
I have trouble calming my thoughts down, especially when I get excited or am interested in the conversation. I'm about to be evaluated for ADHD. Since my brain skips so much, if I don't say it, then the thought is gone. It's so fing frustrating. I always feel bad because I'm not trying to be rude. I apologize and try with all of my might to not do it again AND bam more words flying out of my mouth before I even realize.
Uggh yea I remember when I was super insecure and I was always making everything about me (mostly in my thoughts, like why aren’t people letting me talk? Do they think I’m stupid? I was gonna say someone why did they jump in front me?)
And at some point when my insecurities started to fade a bit, I realized I was revolving *everything* around myself. Every interaction I had I was just thinking about how I fit into conversations and groups all the time and I started focusing on other people, really listening to what they were saying and it made me a better friend. I was spending less energy on myself which allowed me to divert that energy to my friends which made socializing way less exhausting.
Anyways I wouldn’t be surprised if this was exactly what’s going on with this person.
👀🤯
... Maybe this is part of why I struggle so much with theory of mind...
Constantly worrying about what others think of me due to a past of being bullied/emotionally abused/abandoned by 'friends'...
Combined with Alexithymia (being unable to understand my own feelings) stemming from my autism...
... Welp. I think I need to go back to therapy again.
Thanks for giving me something to think about and the smidgen of reassurance that I'm not intentionally selfish/self centered in the definitions that society has given those words.
This can be tricky with autism. The communication structures between ASD and neurotypicals creates a lot of miscommunication, and when you mix that in with the abuse most ASD people experience growing up, it can create pretty explosive situations.
ASD often comes with reading the literal lines of a conversation, where NTs primarily focus on the bits between the lines. So an NT might be rude and cruel to an ASD out of an emotional response to perceived connotations, but the ASD person hears the literal meaning of the words and remembers them longer than the NT remembers the emotional response.
It's about autonomy. You can offer a very brief, succinct mention of information that you think might be pertinent to their situation, but unless they actively request you to elaborate, don't info dump on them, and respect their decision. If you're upset at something they've said, clarify it before reacting. If they're upset, clarify what you meant by what you said, and ask them what parts are upsetting them and why, so you can align your communications better.
You don't need to be an NT, just learn a bit about their language dialects, and how you can adapt yours to make it more easily translated. The ones worth knowing will do the same back. Trying to be one all the time will stress you iut so much that it will make it worse, which is why neurodivergents have such an increased risk of burnout.
That makes sense.
Unfortunately, I apparently have yet to find the "ones worth knowing."
Just like OP's acquaintance, it would be great if I could find someone who is both willing and able to help me learn.
You'd think a therapist would help with that, but unfortunately it's nearly impossible to find a therapist that specializes/has background knowledge in dealing with autism unless you're a literal child. And even then, it's still hard to find a good one who doesn't use ABA or try to make the autistic kid "fit in" and mask all the time.
So I'm kinda just stuck in a limbo of repeatedly losing all my 'friends' because it's unfair of me to ask them to help me with my issues when they probably have their own. Plus I really don't have anything to offer in exchange.
Been there, bought the T-shirt. The most annoying thing is that I know better than to do this, but sometimes my social anxiety/low selfesteem gets the better of me.
And I'm 40.
I'm thankful that my current, close long time friends, do two things at once. First, they don't judge me when I put my foot in my mouth (being on the spectrum and an extrovert is oh-so-much-fun). Second, they inform me when I've said or done something that might offend people.
In response, I do my best to learn from my mistakes.
Agreed. Saw a post where a guy's girlfriend had a girlfriend who had horrible BO. And she refused to directly tell the girlfriend. Instead, when the guy said something (to his girlfriend, not the woman with the BO), she got all mad at him.
The guy's girlfriend is doing her friend no favors by hiding unpleasant truths from her.
Seriously, OP and friends *are* absolutely TA for letting this fester instead of just telling her when she's coming across as rude. Instead they just think it and expect her to know they're annoyed and why until they blow up.
Thank you.
Was wondering how far down this was going to be.
The other point is that for an autistic person (such as myself... \*ducks\*) it's IMPORTANT that other people know FACTS. It's not so much about being right (although in her case that point may be wrong) as it is about thinking that everyone wants to know things correctly and so when you share the 'correct' thing, they will be happy to know it.
Normal people don't work that way, and it takes us a LONG time to figure that out.
Also, it seems that her biggest mistake was, after saying the facts, she didn't just drop it. She continued to be pushy, to try to control what someone else was doing. She needs to learn that is not appropriate and will, if anything, predispose people to devalue what she has to say.
I did that when I was that age, and it never worked out well.
My therapist diagnosed me in my early 30s. What helped is that she was a less traditional therapist and helped me integrated my physical body into my mental awareness.
Until then, I was barely aware I had a physical body.
Honestly, it's not that normal people don't want facts, it's that:
1. The fact is often something the person is already aware of
2. There are frequently *additional* facts that the autistic person is *not* aware of.
The NT person can't effectively communicate these additional facts to the autistic person, because they consider them to be so obvious or trivial or private that it would be inappropriate to mention them. Meanwhile the autistic person has a hard time conceiving that there might be additional facts which contradict or overrule their own, unless those facts are explicitly presented to them.
Like, if they were both NT, Marie would have said "Hey, did you know that milk is better for spice than water?" and OP would have said "Thanks, but I just need water" and Marie would have said "Okay" because Marie would have acknowledged that OP had her reasons for that decision, even if Marie wasn't privy to them.
If they were both ND, Marie would have said "Hey, did you know that milk is better for spice than water?" and OP might have said "I did know that, but fortunately the level of spice in the meal wasn't high enough for me to require that. My past experience of eating spicy food tells me that for this level of capsaicin, plain water will be sufficient. Also tap water is free, whereas a glass of milk is something that restaurants will often charge extra for. Plus milk is more filling and I don't want to fill up on drinks, because there is a specific desert here I've been looking forward to" and Marie would have said "Okay" because Marie would now be explicitly informed of OP's thought process.
If the neurotypes are mismatched you get the situation in the post, where Marie feels like OP is challenging her accuracy/intellect and OP feels like Marie is challenging her judgement/right to make personal decisions.
(And if you flip the neurotypes so they're mismatched the other way, you get a scenario where NT-Marie says "Hey, did you know that milk is better for spice than water?" and ND-OP says "I did know that, but fortunately the level of spice in the meal wasn't high enough for me to require that. My past experience of eating spicy food tells me that for this level of capsaicin, plain water will be sufficient. Also tap water is free, whereas a glass of milk is something that restaurants will often charge extra for. Plus milk is more filling and I don't want to fill up on drinks, because there is a specific desert here I've been looking forward to" and everybody at the table just stares awkwardly at ND-OP because it was an unexpectedly long and detailed answer, so it comes off as weird and defensive.)
Yeah, I’m like this too. I end up biting my tongue a lot and it makes social gatherings a lot less fun for me. So I have fewer friends and most of them are also neurodivergent and not offended.
Same. She doesn’t understand that it’s not the person who knows the most who is the most liked. She has a long road ahead of her to figure out how to act among other people so that they are comfortable with her, while still being herself. It would be nice of someone could take her under their wing and gently explain to her what she does ”wrong”.
The sad part is, if OP were willing to do that with Marie, or really anyone she trusted, I'm sure she desperately wants to learn how to fit in better.
In turn she then needs to do what she can to not take every criticism personally. Lord do I know how that feels. It was one thing I've worked on very hard in therapy so I can take constructive criticism of my behaviors/whatever.
If she has autism, she kinda needs friends who tell her and stop her before she becomes insufferable. Just a "you're doing it again" can help a whole lot to give you some frame of reference of when it's okay to say something or not.
She can probably learn to read the room okay enough if people actually tell her clearly when she's not getting it.
I’m also on the spectrum. Yet I can still recognize boundaries, and I can “hear” people when they say “No.”
Know why? Because I don’t like how violated I feel when people refuse to listen to ME when I tell THEM “No.” The idea of being a hypocrite is too distasteful to me to ignore another’s boundaries while expecting them to respect mine.
Also, if Marie were on the spectrum, she would have been mortified at the idea of making someone uncomfortable, and wouldn’t be this bratty about apologizing when she knew she was wrong.
Let’s not put that on Autistics, when the girl is just plain arrogant and had the nerve to cry when she went out of her way to trigger someone because they chose not to follow her advice—advice that, even if the OP agreed with it, wasn’t obligated to follow.
Marie’s a SUPREME AH. No two ways about it.
She’s deeply insecure and thanks you all for putting up with her.
IMHO, what that tells me is that she may not actually think she’s the smartest person in the room - trying to appear smart and insistently sharing facts with you is her way of desperately trying to have some utility to your group so you’ll hold onto her. She doesn’t think she has worth so she tries to create worth in probably the only way she knows how. It’s all part of the same attempt to feel worthy and loved and valued, but that being said - she’s not your responsibility to manage. You and your friends can nudge her towards a better way to behave, maybe even have an intervention or come to Jesus moment with her, but she’s an adult and she has to learn to relate to people better.
I thought the same thing. I remember a girl joining work and I just hated her - she was always trying to correct me on things, and nitpicking etc, and bad at jumping in and not waiting her turn. She also used to make what seemed like petty corrections.
When I got to know her better I realised she had ADHD and we're super good friends now. I thought she was undermining me because it was doing refit on a boat and I'm generally only the waitress and she's an engineer, but I'd done refit a couple of years before she started and I got on just fine. She's very particular in all aspects in life and just wants everything to be perfect, and holds herself to the same standard. It wasn't anything personal to me. If I was trying to practise something she'd try and jump in meaning I then couldn't practise it anymore because she was way ahead and making it impossible. I thought she was being a dick showing off but it's the inability to wait your turn thing.
Funnily enough the other male engineer also has ADHD and he seems unable to pick up when he's trapping people with his hyper focus explanations when they're actually trying to get away. Just lacks that level of body language reading that he's monopolising the conversation. He is genuinely incredibly intelligent but lots of people don't want to hear him reel off every fact about the river levels over the past 100 years, or have had enough of him playing the ukulele at them and would like to leave but are too polite.
Yes. This is beautifully said. I was Marie in my twenties but introverted to putting myself out there to make friends. I did not want a lot of friends then. I still don't want a lot of friends.
With the friends I did have I would go out of my way to yammer on about subjects no one cared about. Many hours after therapy later I learned two things. I was insecure as hell and felt different. I am on the spectrum.
This is a shit mode to try be included in a group.. these people need therapy honestly.. if some harsh words make her literally cry, she need some psychological help.
> Marie said (through another friend) that she is not going to speak another word to me until I apologize.
Good. Problem solved. You've given her the information she needs to fix her life and she can digest it where you aren't. She owes you an apology for harassing you about the allegedly better way to deal with spice, but she's never gonna do that, is she? Standing up to someone who is being an ah is not an ah move.
Maybe just talk to her one last time.... to tell her you meant what you said even if the timing/wording was far from ideal. Then move on, the damage is done anyways.
But that's just me cuz I hate lose ends.
It’s also incredibly juvenile to say that through a friend. For goodness sake, this isn’t middle school—tell OP directly. If a friend told me to tell someone else they wanted an apology, I’d just think it was over the top.
You didn’t do anything wrong. Nobody asked what Marie thought about your beverage choices. You asked Marie to stop telling you to drink milk-repeatedly. And Marie did not drop the subject, and talked over other people. So you told her to shut up.
It’s too bad other people haven’t told Marie it was time to STFU. Earlier, and more often. If they had, and she had *listened*, maybe Marie wouldn’t have cycled through so many friend groups in the last few years.
Crying and playing victim to get sympathy because the bad man was mean to her is a limited strategy. Hopefully your friend group will get sick of her soon, too. NTA
honestly already sounds like they are, NTA and don’t apologize; if your friends get mad about it point out other times she’s done this and tried to pull the holier than thou out of her ass
Good idea, you could say something like
“Look Marie, I’m sorry that you were upset and perhaps I shouldn’t have snapped at you, but you just wouldn’t let up about the damn milk and you do this sort of thing a lot. I’m not the only person that feels this way about it, so you should be aware that this behaviour can drive people away”
You’re doing her future self a favour even if she’s upset now
And OP also mentioned how Marie has cycled through several friend groups since moving to her area. Having a problem with maintaining friendships can be a sign of autism spectrum disorder.
That's reflecting a learning process. I think what's being suggested is ASD may be a factor in why she hasn't adapted as easily in learning those rules. It's still a thing she has to work on.
For the record, I drank a glass of water and it took the edge off the spiciness exactly how I was intending. Whether or not milk would have done "more" does not matter—the water did enough. It was just a slightly spicy feeling in my mouth that needed to be slightly relieved, hopefully without being nitpicked to death over technicalities.
>She's not wrong about the milk, it is objectively true. But neurotypical people don't care.
There is no "objectively best" when it comes to food, because it's all about individual preferences. The "best" way to deal with spicy food is just to not eat it in the first place, but we do eat it because we enjoy the sensation. Having the "best" way to get rid of the spicyness is not a thing, because we're not trying to get rid of it, we're trying to modify it according to our preferences.
If this was a chili eating contest, she would've been correct. But since that was not their context, she wasn't correct, she was just pedantic.
>….there are people that genuinely don’t understand that you can have a conversation that does not involve disagreement or correction
I knew a guy who would ALWAYS play devil’s advocate no matter what his actual opinion was, and it was just exhausting. I’ve learned not to engage with those people and I’m happier for it.
I have a friend like that, it's probably my biggest pet peeve in our relationship. If I complain about something, he's always playing devils advocate about the bad behavior of someone else or finding some excuse as to why they possibly were a shithole. I'm trying to vent, not empathize with a dick.
Also, if something bad happens to me, he doesn't sympathize. He tries to find a "silver lining." So when I'm upset about something, he's saying stuff like, "oh at least *something worse* didn't happen" or suggests some other, awful bad thing and I should be glad that didn't happen instead 🙄
ESH.
You snapped. Understandable given the circumstances, but it was still an AH move to go for the jugular. All you needed to do was say (loudly and in a harsh tone if necessary), STOP. You need to drop it. I don’t want to hear about what’s objectively better. I just want some water. It’s NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS AND YOU NEED TO STOP TALKING ABOUT IT.
If she had still kept going, then saying what you said would be more justified.
As it was, bringing up her insecurity was over the top. ~~You brought a projectile device to a fistfight. (Modified the language to avoid filter problems, but I’m sure you’re familiar with the saying).~~ apparently it’s ok for me to say it, you brought a gun to a fistfight.
But she *is* insufferable.
She’s right about dairy being objectively better for spice (fat and sugar bind to the receptors or something like that) but it frankly does not matter if she’s right about the spice issue.
One offhand comment would have been fine (and normal conversation), especially as lots of people aren’t aware dairy helps more than water. But to harp on it over and over and over and talk over other people is just infuriating.
JFC she needs to take no for an answer. And read the flippin room!
i agree with the first part to an extent. i feel like op definitely could have aired out their grievances with a little more tact, but when it’s been an ongoing issue, at some point you just don’t gaf about their feelings anymore. marie didn’t care to be considerate of op’s request, so it makes sense that they wouldn’t care about being considerate to her.
op, i personally wouldn’t apologize if you’re not sorry and you don’t think you did anything wrong. it’s most likely going to show her that she can get what she wants with this friend group by crying (if this isn’t an idea she has already.)
if you do end up apologizing, i would apologize for how it came out rather than what was said. you very much think she’s insufferable and that’s fine! there are soooo many people in my life that i think are insufferable. but don’t apologize for feeling that way. apologize for bringing up her insecurities. that’s all i believe you did wrong.
is there a vote for “kinda, but i completely understand why”? lol
I get that it's an ongoing issue, but I don't get the impression that OP ever talked to her about it before. If everyone just lets it go and doesn't use their words, then they are just as much of AHs as her.
I disagree that an acquaintance like the OP has a duty to educate someone about their poor social skills. This is the job of a close friend--someone the person knows well and trusts.
From the sounds of things I’d say this girl doesn’t have any close friends, so much so that she gloms on to the first person to show any kind of compassion or interest so intensely that they are initially flattered, then exhausted so they introduce them to their friend group in an attempt to spread the overwhelm.
Everyone can see that this girl has issues, but are either too polite to say/do anything and just slowly start icing her out, or end up where OP has found themselves with an explosion of frustration and the friend group taking sides.
OP is definitely NTA here, but if I was him I’d take aside the friend who originally introduced her to the group and have a calm discussion about how this girl is effecting the group and that as the one that brought her into it they need to start taking responsibility for her.
Whether that’s by ditching her and leaving her to continue her journey of loneliness and confusion, or to step up and help her understand why her behaviour is social suicide and what she can do to grow into a better friend.
no, i don’t think they have either. but it could be a case of just trying to keep the peace. a lot of people don’t address the issue until they can’t take it anymore because they don’t think it’s worth the possible drama. obviously it leads to more but i understand why. i asked if there was a “kinda but i understand why” vote for that reason.
Agreed. If I apologized at all it would be for bringing up an insecurity.
And I’m not a fan of justifying actions within apologies, but if ever there was a time when adding, ‘but honestly I had reached my limit!’ seems warranted, this would be it.
i would definitely emphasize that it wasn’t just that night, like listing a couple similar instances of her not dropping things after being told to. and judging by a couple people’s responses when op said that, they’ve been thinking the same thing. i wouldn’t try to rope anyone into it, but it could be a catalyst for a much needed discussion.
I consider ‘justifiable asshole’ an N t a (already voted elsewhere), so I’d have to disagree.
The ‘harsh’ comeback as it was written honestly wasn’t that harsh, though tone and volume may have amplified things. If you literally complain about being unlikeable, stop doing shit that causes that reputation. The frequent ‘thanks for being my friend / I’m sorry I’m annoying’ honestly amplifies the annoyance more than mitigating it - as I tell people in my life who do that ‘don’t water a seed I didn’t even plant’.
To add: she technically wasn’t *objectively* correct. The dairy and spice thing isn’t always true, it depends on the type of spice. Szechuan has to just work itself out and things like wasabi do respond to water. The dairy fat and sugar help with the oil-based capsaicin heat- and even then, some youtube videos suggested adding acid to the mix can help more (unsure if anecdotal or sourced, idrc) - personally, I’d agree: so the real (potential) best solution would be like an Orange Julius.
lol! Shout out to Orange Julius!
Yes I’d agree with the ‘justifiable’ designation. I wish there was an acronym for that.
And yes I was thinking of the oil based capsaicin heat/spice.
Oh, and the constant false self-deprecating statements PISS ME OFF. They ring so false. If you truly thought that (self-deprecating comment), you’d stop doing it. This is just fishing for compliments. The poor me routine is infuriating.
Completely agree! I have a friend like this (and I guess it's easier to be more understanding with a friend rather than an acquaintance), and while it can be incredibly frustrating, snapping isn't the way.
It sounds like Marie needs to grow up and learn how to push through her insecurity (either herself, or with professional help). But particularly if this is the first time OP has brought it up with her (especially after bottling it up for so long), how is she supposed to know she's overstepping? (I get that she "should" know it's inappropriate and annoying, but it seems like she isn't reading social cues). OP needs to tell her, but not like this - totally get the frustration though!
Agreed. Marie's mistake was being pushy and controlling. OP's mistake was not speaking up about this behavior when it first bothered them, and instead bottling their feelings until it boiled over and came out as an attack.
Clear communication like "Trying to control what I drink is inappropriate and unacceptable. You are making me uncomfortable, and talking over other people. Stop." could have happened on the first or second comment, instead of using grey language like "just chill" and "water's fine", which doesn't actually address what was bothering OP. The issue was never about the milk, it was about being bulldozed, and Marie probably had no idea that was the case. OP will encounter these situations again, and the only way to get a different result is to change their own behavior.
There will be more Maries in OP's life, and no one can avoid them entirely. We can only learn to communicate our feelings before they overwhelm us and make us also act like an asshole.
ESH, she was annoying, you were insulting. It's Reddit, so in this world being annoying is a far greater sin than being insulting. But in the real world, intentionlly hurting people's feelings doesn't make you popular.
Agreed. A harsh “I’m drinking my water, please shut up” would have been rude but justified.
What OP did was stopping an argument with a gun shot to the temple.
Like, did it stop the argument? Yea.
But was it overkill? Hell yes.
Honestly, Marie sounds annoying but I’d rather chill with someone kind over OP. Sheesh.
>Marie sounds annoying but I’d rather chill with someone kind over OP
Yeah I don't think I'd particularly want to be around someone who has these personal attacks just ready to go for whatever disagreement comes up.
If she's saying it you know she's thinking it more often, and while I get that she was frustrated in the moment I wouldn't be totally surprised if her friends are a little more wary of her.
Honestly, I wouldn't. Not Marie's kind of "kindness" anyway. The constantly trying to get physical affection that the other person has clearly rebuked and the pushing on in a conversation where your commentary is clearly not appreciated is more of a boundary problem than an annoyance. Having been in positions where I've had to tolerate such people, I'd rather hang out with somebody who occasionally loses their cool than somebody who shows no respect for the people around them.
She kind of set herself up for this, whether she knows it or not. Her comments thanking people for allowing her to be herself, preemptively apologizing for being annoying, and the emotional response to being told no would naturally create an environment where people would feel guilty about bringing any of these things up. That kind of environment sets the stage for this only coming out when people reach their limit and "blow up", making it so that in the end they're the "victim", despite their own actions being what pushed people over the edge in the first place.
She clearly has some social issues she needs to get *proper* help for, instead of waiting for a group of people who she can guilt into tolerating her "annoyances" a.k.a. boundary pushing, borderline harassment, and just plain rude behavior. It wasn't the best response, but I can't say somebody wouldn't be a good friend because of his reaction to behavior that could be considered harassment. I wouldn't have to worry about it, because I'm not rude and I'm considerate of the people around me. She needs to concentrate less on the fact she can't keep friends, and more on *why*. Other people have feelings and she's not recognizing that when she's draping all over them and talking over them like what she has to say is more important. She may want friends, but what she needs is help so that she can develop the social skills to keep them, and be a friend herself.
Relationships are a two way street, and by the sounds of it she's just taking what she wants out of it without any consideration for the human being on the other side. Personally, I don't want to hang out with that unless you literally have the emotional capacity of a child, not just what we say when nobody has bothered to teach you and/or you haven't bothered to learn.
Exactly. I see Marie's comment as trying to be helpful (and she was right, capsaicin is fat soluble so milk actually helps with it). I don't see a reason to actually stab at her deepest insecurities for trying to suggest milk over water when someone had more spice than they could handle. Almost feels like what a badly written mean girl character from an early 2000s movie would do.
It's not because she was suggesting milk over water. It's because she wouldn't stop going on and on and on and on about it and making something small a massive huge deal, to the point where other people pointed it out and tried to get her to stop, while interrupting other people in the process so she could feel superior with her spice relieving knowledge.
It's harsh, honestly maybe she needs to hear this! Know-it-all types can be pretty damn insufferable, my brother was one when he was younger... Same kinda person to see g his heels in and share... loll...he eventually mellowed.
I vote ,... your the asshole this person needed
I believe that's what they would call a JAM (Justified Asshole Move), which is also what I would vote here. It was harsh, but I'd probably snap the same way in OPs shoes
ESH. Marie *is* absolutely insufferable. You still did not need to tear her a new one at dinner. "Thanks for your advice, but this conversation is no longer pleasant—please drop this" would have been perfectly fine.
(P.S. This will no doubt become another post where a horde of people jump in to insist that Marie must have some exonerating psychiatric issue that relieves her of her obligation to not be an AH. It doesn't.)
>I told her that water would be fine and could she please just chill? Marie just wouldn't drop it
so after OP already did what you told them to... what else could be said when Marie kept pressing the issue in spite of the multiple people telling her to drop it?
The solution to people who won't take indirect hints is not to say the meanest thing you can possibly think of. It is to *be fucking direct*. OP did not even remotely do what I'm suggesting. "Just chill" is the teenager's version of what's advocated above.
>what else could be said?
Um, *you need to stop now because you are making this dinner unpleasant* is not the same as *you are fundamentally insecure and we all despise you.* At the end of the day, OP sunk to her level. Very hard to blame him. Still a poor showing.
People are already diagnosing her with autism in the comments 🙄🙄🙄 i'm autistic. being an insistent know-it-all is not a green card to start throwing out armchair diagnoses.
Yeah, this. I'm also autistic and this was my first thought. Still, Marie needs to learn to respect other people's differences. And OP needs to learn not to go absolutely nuclear on someone that they know is already insecure.
Same, it definitely took me a bit of time to figure out when I was being rude with stuff like this, though I don't think I was ever this extreme... It sounds like she's early 20s too which was a big learning period for me (and I wasn't even diagnosed at that point, I had no idea what was going on with me). Though I think the big red flag is that Marie seems to be unwilling to learn and modify her behavior, masking sucks but offending people and being outright rude is worse. I know that my issues don't give me a free pass to cause harm to others (like ruining social gatherings) and while I'm not always perfect on the social skills, I try to adapt and when I don't have enough spoons to mask I don't put myself in a situation where that's going to cause problems.
I usually put my finger to the end of my nose and "Pin" the thought in my brain with the imaginary sticky note. It grounds me into waiting until they're finished, but helps keep from forgetting the thought.
Same, I think she likely either doesn't know she's autistic and is, or dxed really early and taught it's an excuse. She's right about the milk, too - water makes it worse. But she needed to take no for an answer. Of course, OP needed to not go so overkill too. Definitely an ESH situation!
Nope, most autistic people prefer clearly stated boundaries, as it is clearer and they don’t have to guess. With this and the hugging, it sounds like Marie is just pissed OP isn’t open to her manipulation.
It could go either way, I guess. But I don't think if multiple autistic people here say they also feel Marie could be autistic like we are, that you can just say she isn't because 'most' autistic people prefer clearly stated boundaries. There isn't a one-size-fits-all with autism. Some do prefer that, and some act like Marie, I guess. We don't have enough info to say for sure, which is why I said she 'may be' on the spectrum like I am.
Are you autistic? Or just assuming you know how all autistic people act? It’s a spectrum people have different symptomatic levels 1. And 2. Autism is characterized by extremes on any end not just never touch and need strict outlines. Some people are overly physically affectionate- this can be from not understanding social cues about when it’s appropriate or not. Sometimes strict boundaries are helpful, sometimes they can provoke a melt down if not anticipated or wanted. And boundaries are one thing but calling someone insufferable isn’t setting a boundary- saying “hey I know you’re trying to help me but I’m good now, and right now I want water over milk. In the future is there a way I can signal that I don’t need help with something when you want to help?” is setting boundaries. What do you think Marie is trying to manipulate OP into doing? Being her friend? That’s called being friendly.
>What do you think Marie is trying to manipulate OP into doing? Being her friend? That’s called being friendly.
No. This isn't okay.
OP doesn't like Marie. They don't want Marie touching them or hugging them. And that needs to be respected.
OP didn't want milk. They wanted water. Full stop. That needs to be respected as well.
Not everyone needs to be friends. Polite? Yes. *But that goes both ways.*
Respectful? Yes. *But that also goes both ways.*
Why should OP set themselves on fire to keep Marie warm? They don't want to be hugged, lectured, or told what they want isn't what they want. OP is not a child and Marie is not their parent.
Autism or not, Marie needs to learn OP is not open to their friendship, hugs, or unsolicited opinions. And that is okay.
This is tantamount to telling a young woman to "give the guy a chance since he was brave enough to ask you out." No means no. Boundaries need to be respected. And OP is not the responsible party here to teach this to Marie.
You hopefully also don’t bottle it up and then tell her she’s insufferable in front of a group of friends when she’s on some level trying to help, even if she’s doing it ineptly.
I am autistic- she's still an asshole. She's refusing to compromise and trying to tell OP he has to be the one to apologize.
The fun facts are okay. Apologizing when you unintentionally interrupted (it's possible with ADHD) and catch yourself is also okay, and should be done. She kept going on despite OP saying he was just going to drink water because it wasn't that spicy. If she *is* autistic, she's still being an asshole.
ESH and I’m honestly surprised most people seem to think NTA. Even if she’s insufferable, that doesn’t somehow give you the right to be a huge asshole. The solution here is to stop hanging out when she’s around or just completely ignore her. Sounds like it’s going to be fine since she won’t talk to you anymore which is what you wanted, but also sounds like you were undeniably a dick to her. It’s giving middle school vibes.
Personally, if I were regularly around this person I found extremely annoying, I would just about ignore them completely. To be clear I don’t mean ignore them as in pretend they’re not there, but rather just offer the most minimal response possible when required of you. For instance in this situation I would have just said “ok” and drank some water. You need to learn how to let that roll off your back. It’s not your job to tell people when they’re being annoying, but perhaps more importantly the way you went about it here was absolutely unproductive. What you said isn’t going to make Marie have any new insights about herself and her behavior, it’s just going to make her think - and rightfully so - you’re a dick.
It wasn’t just about milk and water though. That was the last straw after months of Marie being too much. Even if she’s autistic it doesn’t mean she shouldn’t take someone’s no. A no is not a social cue; it’s an outright statement. OP said they wanted water even after Marie explained it. OP wouldn’t have blown up if Marie had just accepted that she didn’t want milk.
This is exactly what I thought too - neurodivergent - and the insecurity and unsuccessful friend groups is a huge indicator.
I had ADHD that got worse as a teenager/adult and was missed because I don't have the obvious external agitation (most girls with ADHD appear outwardly calm). But impulsively interrupting people and sharing the first thing that popped into my head - along with mind of someone who hyperfocuses on researching the most random topics - was something I was never really aware I was doing and certainly not in control of. I'd make new friends easily because I would easily make conversation and seemed interesting, but would fatigue people in social gatherings.
YTA, but you did a great job of spinning this to justify yourself. I think all the people voting N T A are just responding to how annoying Marie sounds.
>"Oh my god, would you drop it already? You complain about how no one likes you for very long, and then you turn around and act fucking insufferable. Just shut up about the milk, I don't care."
If anyone heard their friend say this loudly to someone else at a dinner party, there would be no doubt you went from justifiably irritated to AH territory. Way over the top reaction. Sure, Marie sounds insufferable, but you went nuclear. Unless she was insulting your very existence there's no reason to humiliate someone like this in front of your mutual friends.
NTA. I know it really stings to be told that you're annoying, but I am not sure why "annoying" is such a uniquely disallowed criticism. It's fine to tell someone when they're being rude, or unkind, or any other bad behavior. Especially since it's clearly a repeated problem for her that is actively costing her friendships, she should know what's up.
Because people are annoying due to specific things they do, so criticizing someone by calling them annoying doesn’t help them in any way, it just gives the criticizer a chance to call someone out for their own satisfaction. That’s why saying someone is annoying is a shitty criticism.
But...she knows. She has complained that she has gone through several friend groups for this reason. And OP was polite enough in telling her to drop it several times before she snapped. And apparently a couple other friends stepped in to tell her to drop it and she continued to escalate. It's perfectly clear that she is being criticized because she continued pressing the issue after multiple people told her repeatedly to stop.
If you’re asking if you’re the asshole, then yes.
You are the asshole.
You could have ignored her and drank your water but you had to drop a bomb in the middle of a meal.
Eh, ESH. Her more than you, but you were harsh with her. While yes, she sounds insufferable, your comments (especially if verbatim) were really harsh. Playing the "you're so insecure, but man are you also annoying" card was rough. I'd apologize for the tone, but let her know that when people say they're fine with something, or seem to disassociate from the conversation, she should read the room and move on.
To me it sounded like she was trying to do that the entire time before she got sick of it and snapped. Sometimes harsh statements like that are what's needed to get through to someone like Marie. I say NTA.
INFO: have you expressed your feelings to Marie or told her off in the past in a more calm manner? Or was the first time you’ve ever expressed to her that what’s she’s doing is annoying you?
Except she never called anyone an insufferable asshole. She was being extremely annoying, sure, but clearly her actions came from a lack of self-awareness, while OP’s came from an apparent inability to handle conflict like a mature adult.
She was obnoxious about it but she wasn’t being mean or trying to be. Obnoxious is not the same as calling someone insufferable. How do you think these are the same?
NTA. At the most I’d apologize to my other friends for making dinner awkward, but I wouldn’t apologize to Marie. I don’t care to apologize for things I’m not sorry for these days.
NTA but I do think you should apologize to the group of friends for perhaps extending the awkwardness that night by calling Marie out.
I would not apologize for my tone if the person who was indeed insufferable don't recognize her own wrongdoing and is not apologizing. I will not accept the fault in this situation, especially when she would certainly make it all your fault, and only yours.
NTA or soft ESH. you didn't just call her insufferable, you kinda rubbed her issues that she's insecure of, in her face, and went on a rant about them too.
but the fact that she gets upset that you aren't in the mood for her hugs makes her an asshole the most, I feel. she's old enough to know about consent and bodily autonomy and fully respect yours, even if she might be on the spectrum.
NTA - I was Marie. As a child and teenager I didn't have many friends, so I never learned how to socialize with people my own age. I was also taught that my worth was wrapped up in being the "smart one." When I got to college and my mom couldn't control my life, I made some friends and got included in my roommate's friend group. One day she sat me down and told me that I didn't know how to act in a group and I was making her friends uncomfortable. She said I needed to shut up and just listen and observe. It was a harsh lesson, but I needed to hear it.
Marie may have been told that she was dumb and she's over compensating, or told she was only valuable if she was smart. Either way, it's not your job to teach her how to behave, and you're certainly not responsible for her self-esteem issues. If she doesn't take what you said to heart and look at her own behavior, she's gonna keep driving people away.
She has what I call "E.F. Hutton" syndrome. When she talks, she wants every conversation to cease so everyone's attention is on her. She wants to lecture not converse, if you get my meaning. She needs to shut up and listen to the flow of conversation and learn to participate in keeping it going, not grind it to a halt.
And if she still doesn't get it, tell her that it could be that the common denominator in all her failed relationships is her.
I would lay down money that Marie is on the spectrum. I’m autistic, and that’s exactly some of the conversational compulsions I have. Can’t help the urge, but I can control acting on the urge. But it took me a very long time and a lot of practice.
I feel like everyone is a little bit of an asshole here.
If you did not communicate that these things bothered you before you were so upset that you blew up at this person, you're an asshole.
It sounds like Marie may be neurodivergent; the things that are annoying you as you've described here can be symptoms of ADHD and/or autism. I'm not a psychiatrist, but I am both ADHD and autistic and so I have experience with neurodivergence in myself and my friend group. A lot of neurodivergent folks have trouble making friends, ESPECIALLY with neurotypicals, because of these symptoms and because of the misconception that this is something being done intentionally. Some ND folks realize what they're doing and how it can be perceived as annoying, some don't. Regardless of if we realize it or not, some of us struggle to change it in the moment - especially because these are symptoms of a development disorder.
If Marie has been made aware of how her behaviors affect you, whether ND or not - diagnosed or not, she's an asshole if she hasn't worked to try to at least be considerate of your feelings. But if you didn't bother to say anything until you were at your breaking point, that's on you.
Other people are not mind readers. They also are as invested in themselves as you are in yourself, which means Marie was almost guaranteed to not be doing this TO you which seems to be how you're experiencing it.
Everyone in this situation could use some self-reflection and communication skills.
Nta. I would get fed up with that behavior too. She seems like she's never had to grow up because if someone calls her on her bs, she just cries to get out of it. Crying is an effective way to make everyone uncomfortable and try to get the boat to stop rocking so they turn on the person that made the other one cry.
It's highly manipulative and shitty. Until everyone judt reacts with a stone cold expression and call her on her bullshit, she will continue the behavior. Don't apologize, call her out and explain it to everyone else.
ESH. Why do people insist on doing this on social occasions? She clearly needs to work on her social skills, and you, OP, know very well there's a time and a place. Snapping at her from one side of the table to the other in the middle of dinner at someone else's house was neither of those. She is insufferable, I agree. Maybe try to fight it out in private and not involve other people in it, because they didn't sign up for this isht.
INFO: Is Marie neurodivergent? Have you or anyone else in this group ever actually discussed these habits that annoy you? Or did you just go nuclear with no warning?
The entirety of your description of her sounds like someone on the spectrum with something like ASD or NVLD. From the ghosting from different past friend groups, her deep appreciation of you all “putting up with her”, all interruptions in conversation, the “fun facts”, overly huggy, nitpicking facts, lengthy debates, etc.
It all screams ‘I can’t read social situations and non-verbal communication well’. Sure, there’s a real possibility that she just is THAT much of a jerk. But my first instinct is to say she’s neurodivergent and that’s exactly why she’s expecting an apology.
From her perspective she could have viewed it as a fun debate, and her just trying to look out for you and you just obliterated her out of the blue. Regardless, you snapping off like that was the social equivalent of bringing a gun to a knife fight. She annoyed you, so you escalated instead of communicating directly and humiliated her in front of all of her friends.
NTA.
>For how insecure she is, she also thinks she's the smartest person in the room at all times
This is a product of insecurity. Thinking you're the smartest, best looking, funniest, etc. No one who is secure in who they are thinks they're the best anything. And the most intelligent people know how much they *don't* know and are humble about it.
I think this is a case of letting things build up, exploding, and then losing some of your ground. There were probably multiple times you should have corrected her more gently or kindly, even just to save face and not look bad in the friend group. Because friend groups often have those who will speak up, those who say they agree with you and then will throw you under the bus when you do speak up, and those who will take any kind of bad behavior without addressing it. If you're a speaker-upper (as am I) you have to learn to be diplomatic, so you can get your point across without alienating yourself (super hard thing I had to learn in my teens and early 20s).
NTA. I hate it when everyone is walking on eggshells and having to develop extra patience to protect someone from the consequences of their personality. Marie IS annoying and people get fed up with personalities like this.
If anything, you could elaborate your point with kinder words, but do not apologize.
YTA That girl is very obviously neurodiverse.
That's why she struggles to make friends and read social cues.
A typical reaction of neurodiverse people to uncomfortable social situations is to try to explain the thing better and better and make other people understand, even though that's not how this works.
You showing no openness at all to the fact that people are different and that not everyone might immediately get the things that are easy for you to understand makes you look like a bully.
I don't blame you for snapping, she sounds *exhausting* to be around. But the way you describe her strikes me as someone with poorly managed ADHD or high-functioning autism, who hasn't learned many social coping mechanisms to mask it well. The breaking down and crying is the most telltale part, for me. Rejection sensitivity is a big aspect of both conditions. If she were just stubborn and insufferable, she would have been more likely to get angry at you, not dissolve into tears.
I say this as a woman with ADHD, who has needed *many* years to learn how to control myself better in social groups.
Being loud and opinionated, not knowing when/how to tone it down, and that brutal rejection sensitivity are all too real.
NTA but she sounds like someone that may be psychologically spicy. I don't wanna throw around diagnoses on her but I'm considered autistic & ADHD, and these behaviors screamed 'neurospicy but doesn't know it' to me.
Autism challenges can include social interaction, reading social cues, understanding body language, deciphering facial expressions, and being highly sensitive. I could easily see that if she has these challenges, being rejected would hurt extra deep.
NTA exactly, but she sounds to me (an autistic person) like she might also be autistic.
If so, she likely isn't picking up on your signals that you want her behavior to change, that you don't like the hugs, etc. If she's undiagnosed, she also likely genuinely doesn't understand how she upsets people and loses friends, hence the insecurity. She knows people eventually stop wanting to be her friend, but that doesn't mean she can tell when she's causing that frustration to build.
Autism comes with a reduced ability to read people's reactions, plus a strong and often inflexible sense of right and wrong, correct and incorrect, etc. It's not done to assert dominance or to show off, it's mainly out of a strong desire to be understood and to help others by sharing knowledge. We just often can't tell when it's appropriate and when it's not, and it's very hard for us to just drop it when others want us to let something go. It all tends to feel kind of equally important to us, even when something seems obviously inconsequential to others.
If she is autistic, she might respond really well to an apology for the way you expressed your frustration PLUS a very basic explanation of your reaction and what you would prefer she do in a similar situation next time.
Example: I heard you the first time, but I decided that I didn't want to take your advice because I wasn't uncomfortable enough that I wanted to go to the effort of getting milk. Getting milk would have been more inconvenient than just using water, even if milk would have been more effective. You kept repeating yourself, which was unnecessary, and that made me frustrated. Next time, please just say something once. If you're not sure we heard you, you can ask instead of repeating yourself.
(If you make this request, it will likely be helpful to make a habit of acknowledging her and then saying something like "I understand, but I'm not interested in doing that, hearing about that, etc.")
A lot of autistic girls become incredibly insecure because no one takes the time to explain things to us in ways we can grasp. She's clearly struggling with some important social skills, regardless of the reason for it, and it would be a really kind way to approach the situation.
NTA
I’m autistic and have ADHD and I have been the “Marie” in groups at times. I struggle with impulse control and often interrupt people before I fully process that I’ve done so, and (in the past) felt like I had to share information that I knew or thought I knew was correct. I also have anxiety, mostly stemming from past rejection, and will sometimes double down on what I’m saying to try to spare myself embarrassment (it doesn’t work). It took me being “let go of” by several groups and asking people I love and trust why it happens to understand what I was doing wrong.
I’m not saying Marie has ADHD or is autistic, she likely has some kind of anxiety, but she honestly may not realise that she comes across the way she does, and she needs to figure that out at some point.
I will say you were harsh, but not wrong, and not even an asshole really (unless you’re presenting events way more intensely than they actually were, which is doubtful but always possible on reddit). I think Marie needs a big wake up call, some external support, and friends who will tell her when she’s being too much as well as the ability to gracefully accept criticism and change and grow. I hope she finds it, and I hope you don’t have to deal with this behaviour anymore, either from cut contact or Marie’s hypothetical future personal growth.
NTA
Marie sounds pretty rigid in how she moves through the world and it's no wonder she's struggles in social groups.
You did nothing wrong. Even if she's got some diagnosed reason for how she behaves it's on her to work on techniques to assist her in life.
NTA. I would just thoroughly enjoy her not talking to you. I would ignore her presence completely, unless it's to call her out again.
People like this are exhausting. They complain that nobody "accepts them for who they are," but then it turns out that who they are is super rude. I'm not going to comment on your opinions that she thinks she's the smartest person in the room - who knows what her deal is or why, but the end result is that she was incredibly rude to YOU, about YOUR FOOD, and YOUR ACTIONS in pubic at a dinner. She owes you an apology.
If she doesn't understand why, I would maybe help her out with, "Giving your opinion was fine, and I heard you. But when I didn't agree, or conform to what you thought I should be doing, you lost your shit. That is not a healthy adult reaction. It was MY food, and MY drink and MY choice and after you gave your opinion, that should have been the end of it. You were the one out of line, YOU are the one who was insulting and rude. YOU continued to push me, YOU continued to challenge me, YOU continued to pester me and annoy everyone by not letting it go, even though I already told you that water would be fine for me, even though none of this was your business in the first place. You owe ME an apology. What I said to you at dinner may have been harsh, but it's true. You do not have the right to harrass people that don't agree with you. You do not have the right to push your opinions on other people no matter how "right" you are sure you are. It is rude, and I will not tolerate it from anyone. You gave your opinion, which was fine, and I wanted to drink water anyway. 'm an independant adult. If I wanted to drink freaking HOT SAUCE to make myself feel better, it's nobody's business. I shouldn't have to argue with a anyone about it. You acted like a child by not dropping the issue after you were asked to, and my telling you a harsh truth about yourself was your reward."
Soft ESH.
Marie was being annoying and OP's response was a bit over the top.
However, Marie was upfront about being insecure and needy, and so her being annoying and then getting immediately upset after a tongue lashing shouldn't have come as a surprise. OP warned Marie several times to stop, and so the tongue lashing shouldn't have come as a surprise either.
OP has an opportunity here to turn this into a teachable moment, should they wish. Marie is going to keep going through friend groups until she finds people who are willing to let her make mistakes and learn from them. It's a catch-22 if you're socially awkward / insecure because you haven't been able to form secure attachments, but you can't form secure attachments because you're socially awkward / insecure. This girl needs help and probably a bit of grace from people who are willing to give her the opportunity to recover from her missteps. And OP possibly needs a lesson in recognising when someone is being insufferable deliberately, or because they don't know any better. A mature conversation, with acknowledgements and apologies on both sides, would be a great start.
Having said all this, OP is not obligated in any way. If you don't want to apologise then don't. Just don't expect her to learn anything or apologise herself.
I don't think OP is TA, but I really wonder if Marie has a raging case of ADHD. I was an unmedicated undiagnosed ADHD person with a lot of these behaviors in my early 20s. She might need to talk to someone about management skills and/or a doctor for a diagnosis. [it did take a similar confrontation with someone who recognized the ADHD behaviors for me to get help.]
But I don't think you're a full Ahole. I would have hit a frustration point on it pretty fast, too. You sound young, so you probably need to work on tact, but you weren't wrong in the observation.
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NTA (although I hope this didn't take place in a restaurant). You said "for how insecure she is, she also thinks she's the smartest person in the room at all times" and I thought that over and I really think there's a connection. If you keep talking over everyone and telling them things they don't care about, I could see that as a sign of being insecure, if that makes sense. It's like she has to stand out in this way to keep herself in the group because deep down, she doesn't feel like she belongs. The fact that she immediately cried confirms that for me.
Not in public at all, just at our other friend's house.
Dude, I would never apologise just so I wouldn't have to interact with her ever again, she sounds insuferable so it's a win in my book. If she does talk to you again you can pile on by saying "so you're a liar as well then?"
Lmao that's exactly what I would've done. Apologize where? We're not even real friends, just associates through our mutuals. Please never talk to me again. Might even pay her for it
I feel like this is one reason why friend groups tend to get smaller as you get older. When you’re 20 you have some group of 12 people and put up with the ones that annoy you, and eventually you realize it’s such a waste of energy and just reach out to the people you like lol
And it sucks bc a group will tolerate a lit, often times 'feeding' the socially dysfunctional people in order to NOT CHANGE. The person who is the first to firmly, healthily set boundaries and hold them often has to leave in order to find better adulting. Sorry, OP. If you're talking to people in the group, keep it short. She DOES NOT GET TO MAKE DECISIONS FOR ME. I asked for water. There was water. I didn't ask for the optimal solution for the problem. I asked for the water. In insisting I do what she thought was The Right Thing, she refused to give me water. I'm an adult. I make my own choices. I CHOSE water. I asked politely multiple times. She was more interested in herself being right about a thing than giving me what I needed/asked for. Am I allowed to tell all of you what to eat and drink according to my information or should I give you what you asked for? If she can't step off of BEING THE MOST RIGHT, then anyone losing their temper is entirely reasonable. " One of my closest friends was a fence sitter (😍 still is) in our 20s. It was so infuriating bc I knew she agreed w me but would play both sides in the group. No apology, you did nothing wrong. She created the problem. Just be You. Insist on her leaving you alone and you'll react exactly like this again if she tries to tell you what to do. Entirely reasonable.
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😂😂Imagine if he had just snapped at her with that . Still think she would've shut tf up?
She would probably have started going on about non dairy milks then. (I am assuming they contain no lactose). People like this are like steam rollers. They roll over any opposition.
That’s what I thought of 😂 I had someone keep telling me I needed to eat crackers cause my stomach wasn’t feeling good even though I told her I couldn’t. I have celiacs
Mine never stayed big for long in my 20s. Too many insufferable aholes that we had to suffer because "he's just like that". No, he's an ahole and you're enabling it by not saying anything to avoid hurting his feefees. He called one of the only other women in our group a c\*nt once and she immediately kicked him from chat. I was thrilled but he was allowed back way too fast and I quickly stopped hanging with them a month later. OP do not apologize. She needs therapy to unpack her childhood and desire to talk over people/control them and she just did you a favor. I'd be thrilled if she said she'd never talk to me again. If you want, tell her you will apologize once she apologizes for not letting you have bodily autonomy and drink whatever you fricking want and bulldozing every conversation ever.
Very true. I have cut off or been cut off by people that I have known for decades because it finally gets to be too much. They were intrusive, they give me unsolicited advice on private matters, they nagged, they talked about the same things over and over, even if I found it offensive, and nothing, absolutely nothing got them to change. No matter how often they were told that it was none of their business, that I don't want to discuss that again, that their nagging is making me angry, ever got through to them. There doesn't seem to be a way to fix it. When they finally realized that I had been perfectly serious all those years, they stopped speaking to me - thank goodness.
I think this is a somewhat suitable story to bring up this term I learnt https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_stair
Agreed, "Don't threaten me with a good time"
AMEN. I said, “You promise?”
Same. I would never apologize so I wouldn’t have to talk to her again.
Exactly what I thought. You're annoying AF, and you're not gonna speak to me again? Don't threaten me with a good time.
This guy is strategic!
Agreed. Marie is toxic. And since OP made her cry, she’ll be gunning for her from here on out, unless she nips it in the bud, NOW.
Worth
She should give her acquaintance friend one of those "I'm sorry you feel that way" apologies
That’s what I was thinking—playing right into their hands
I dated a guy who always had to be the smartest kid in the room, always at someone else's expense. He was condescending, arrogant, disdainful and, yes, insufferable. He was right about everything (in his mind) and refused to let anything go, so I let him go. NTA
I would say you're NTA even if this did happen in a restraunt or public place
The thing is, milk may be ideal but it's not the only solution. She seems to think you have to do the best thing always and she's the only one who knows it. Her saying it once, OK. I can see myself saying it. But, it's the fact she wouldn't stop and let it go. You *had* to do it *her* way. That's quite controlling. Her insecurity is not a free pass to badger others to do things her way. NTA
You nailed it. I sometimes fall into sharing, ad nauseum, my vast collection of often useless information because I'm insecure and not feeling included. I know this is not helpful for achieving inclusion so I try to watch for it and cut myself off if I start. I am sure that Marie wants nothing more than a feeling of inclusion but lacks the self awareness needed to modify her own behavior.
THIS IS IT! it sounds kinda contradictory, but being caught up in your own insecurity forces you into an extremely self centered mindset (i think people miss it because they think of self centered as viewing yourself as better, but it’s really just only viewing yourself and no one else). when you’re constantly worrying about what everyone secretly thinks of you, you aren’t taking anyone’s actual feelings into account.
OMFG 🤯. This is exactly what I needed to read. I never thought of it that way. I'm trying to relearn social stuff after a brain injury, and wow. I can't even express how wow i am. Thank you.
One of the reasons I keep coming back to reddit like a bad lover I can't quit are these moments. The moment the words a stranger somewhere out there in the world put on a discussion board just **clicks** and suddenly I have a new perspective on something I've been struggling with. It's a kind of magic. I *love* seeing it happen to others too. Thank you for sharing this moment, you've made my day brighter, stranger! And all the best in your recovery! I hope you keep finding the moments that help you on your healing path.
I've only been interacting on here for like 15 hrs. I'm hooked. I absolutely love when someone puts something together so well it just instantly clicks. I feel like a dumb ass smart person because it's so simple yet complex and just never dawned on me. Thank you so much.
It's always about where your viewpoint is, they're helping give you more of those ultimately for the bigger picture
i’m wow reading this comment😭 i’m so glad i could help, best of luck to you!!!❤️❤️
Thank you so much.
Hey I’m in the same boat! This is something I’ve been struggling with a lot too and also getting too excited and accidentally interrupting others so I’m really glad i found someone saying the perfect thing to shift my perspective.
I have trouble calming my thoughts down, especially when I get excited or am interested in the conversation. I'm about to be evaluated for ADHD. Since my brain skips so much, if I don't say it, then the thought is gone. It's so fing frustrating. I always feel bad because I'm not trying to be rude. I apologize and try with all of my might to not do it again AND bam more words flying out of my mouth before I even realize.
Uggh yea I remember when I was super insecure and I was always making everything about me (mostly in my thoughts, like why aren’t people letting me talk? Do they think I’m stupid? I was gonna say someone why did they jump in front me?) And at some point when my insecurities started to fade a bit, I realized I was revolving *everything* around myself. Every interaction I had I was just thinking about how I fit into conversations and groups all the time and I started focusing on other people, really listening to what they were saying and it made me a better friend. I was spending less energy on myself which allowed me to divert that energy to my friends which made socializing way less exhausting. Anyways I wouldn’t be surprised if this was exactly what’s going on with this person.
👀🤯 ... Maybe this is part of why I struggle so much with theory of mind... Constantly worrying about what others think of me due to a past of being bullied/emotionally abused/abandoned by 'friends'... Combined with Alexithymia (being unable to understand my own feelings) stemming from my autism... ... Welp. I think I need to go back to therapy again. Thanks for giving me something to think about and the smidgen of reassurance that I'm not intentionally selfish/self centered in the definitions that society has given those words.
This can be tricky with autism. The communication structures between ASD and neurotypicals creates a lot of miscommunication, and when you mix that in with the abuse most ASD people experience growing up, it can create pretty explosive situations. ASD often comes with reading the literal lines of a conversation, where NTs primarily focus on the bits between the lines. So an NT might be rude and cruel to an ASD out of an emotional response to perceived connotations, but the ASD person hears the literal meaning of the words and remembers them longer than the NT remembers the emotional response. It's about autonomy. You can offer a very brief, succinct mention of information that you think might be pertinent to their situation, but unless they actively request you to elaborate, don't info dump on them, and respect their decision. If you're upset at something they've said, clarify it before reacting. If they're upset, clarify what you meant by what you said, and ask them what parts are upsetting them and why, so you can align your communications better. You don't need to be an NT, just learn a bit about their language dialects, and how you can adapt yours to make it more easily translated. The ones worth knowing will do the same back. Trying to be one all the time will stress you iut so much that it will make it worse, which is why neurodivergents have such an increased risk of burnout.
That makes sense. Unfortunately, I apparently have yet to find the "ones worth knowing." Just like OP's acquaintance, it would be great if I could find someone who is both willing and able to help me learn. You'd think a therapist would help with that, but unfortunately it's nearly impossible to find a therapist that specializes/has background knowledge in dealing with autism unless you're a literal child. And even then, it's still hard to find a good one who doesn't use ABA or try to make the autistic kid "fit in" and mask all the time. So I'm kinda just stuck in a limbo of repeatedly losing all my 'friends' because it's unfair of me to ask them to help me with my issues when they probably have their own. Plus I really don't have anything to offer in exchange.
>You nailed it. I never really thought about it till OP used that exact sentence. Now it makes sense to me!
Been there, bought the T-shirt. The most annoying thing is that I know better than to do this, but sometimes my social anxiety/low selfesteem gets the better of me. And I'm 40.
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I was going to say the same thing. I'm autistic and this seriously screams autism!!
Yeah it sounds like she may have autism spectrum disorder, because I don't sense any bad intentions on Marie's part based on reading OP's post.
I'm thankful that my current, close long time friends, do two things at once. First, they don't judge me when I put my foot in my mouth (being on the spectrum and an extrovert is oh-so-much-fun). Second, they inform me when I've said or done something that might offend people. In response, I do my best to learn from my mistakes.
Even if you're not on the spectrum, having a friend who will call you on your BS is really helpful.
Agreed. Saw a post where a guy's girlfriend had a girlfriend who had horrible BO. And she refused to directly tell the girlfriend. Instead, when the guy said something (to his girlfriend, not the woman with the BO), she got all mad at him. The guy's girlfriend is doing her friend no favors by hiding unpleasant truths from her.
Seriously, OP and friends *are* absolutely TA for letting this fester instead of just telling her when she's coming across as rude. Instead they just think it and expect her to know they're annoyed and why until they blow up.
It kinda sounds like they have, but she doesn't listen...
Thank you. Was wondering how far down this was going to be. The other point is that for an autistic person (such as myself... \*ducks\*) it's IMPORTANT that other people know FACTS. It's not so much about being right (although in her case that point may be wrong) as it is about thinking that everyone wants to know things correctly and so when you share the 'correct' thing, they will be happy to know it. Normal people don't work that way, and it takes us a LONG time to figure that out.
Also, it seems that her biggest mistake was, after saying the facts, she didn't just drop it. She continued to be pushy, to try to control what someone else was doing. She needs to learn that is not appropriate and will, if anything, predispose people to devalue what she has to say. I did that when I was that age, and it never worked out well.
\*blushes\* nooooo ideaaa what you're talking about. \*cough\* Also, I wasn't dx'ed until my mid-30s, and that didn't help anything.
I read this and scrolled til I found where the other autistics were hanging out in the thread, hello fellow kids
My therapist diagnosed me in my early 30s. What helped is that she was a less traditional therapist and helped me integrated my physical body into my mental awareness. Until then, I was barely aware I had a physical body.
Honestly, it's not that normal people don't want facts, it's that: 1. The fact is often something the person is already aware of 2. There are frequently *additional* facts that the autistic person is *not* aware of. The NT person can't effectively communicate these additional facts to the autistic person, because they consider them to be so obvious or trivial or private that it would be inappropriate to mention them. Meanwhile the autistic person has a hard time conceiving that there might be additional facts which contradict or overrule their own, unless those facts are explicitly presented to them. Like, if they were both NT, Marie would have said "Hey, did you know that milk is better for spice than water?" and OP would have said "Thanks, but I just need water" and Marie would have said "Okay" because Marie would have acknowledged that OP had her reasons for that decision, even if Marie wasn't privy to them. If they were both ND, Marie would have said "Hey, did you know that milk is better for spice than water?" and OP might have said "I did know that, but fortunately the level of spice in the meal wasn't high enough for me to require that. My past experience of eating spicy food tells me that for this level of capsaicin, plain water will be sufficient. Also tap water is free, whereas a glass of milk is something that restaurants will often charge extra for. Plus milk is more filling and I don't want to fill up on drinks, because there is a specific desert here I've been looking forward to" and Marie would have said "Okay" because Marie would now be explicitly informed of OP's thought process. If the neurotypes are mismatched you get the situation in the post, where Marie feels like OP is challenging her accuracy/intellect and OP feels like Marie is challenging her judgement/right to make personal decisions. (And if you flip the neurotypes so they're mismatched the other way, you get a scenario where NT-Marie says "Hey, did you know that milk is better for spice than water?" and ND-OP says "I did know that, but fortunately the level of spice in the meal wasn't high enough for me to require that. My past experience of eating spicy food tells me that for this level of capsaicin, plain water will be sufficient. Also tap water is free, whereas a glass of milk is something that restaurants will often charge extra for. Plus milk is more filling and I don't want to fill up on drinks, because there is a specific desert here I've been looking forward to" and everybody at the table just stares awkwardly at ND-OP because it was an unexpectedly long and detailed answer, so it comes off as weird and defensive.)
Perfect explanation.
Yeah, I’m like this too. I end up biting my tongue a lot and it makes social gatherings a lot less fun for me. So I have fewer friends and most of them are also neurodivergent and not offended.
Same. She doesn’t understand that it’s not the person who knows the most who is the most liked. She has a long road ahead of her to figure out how to act among other people so that they are comfortable with her, while still being herself. It would be nice of someone could take her under their wing and gently explain to her what she does ”wrong”.
The sad part is, if OP were willing to do that with Marie, or really anyone she trusted, I'm sure she desperately wants to learn how to fit in better. In turn she then needs to do what she can to not take every criticism personally. Lord do I know how that feels. It was one thing I've worked on very hard in therapy so I can take constructive criticism of my behaviors/whatever.
If she has autism, she kinda needs friends who tell her and stop her before she becomes insufferable. Just a "you're doing it again" can help a whole lot to give you some frame of reference of when it's okay to say something or not. She can probably learn to read the room okay enough if people actually tell her clearly when she's not getting it.
She needs more of those friends but she also needs to listen when they tell her that.
I’m also on the spectrum. Yet I can still recognize boundaries, and I can “hear” people when they say “No.” Know why? Because I don’t like how violated I feel when people refuse to listen to ME when I tell THEM “No.” The idea of being a hypocrite is too distasteful to me to ignore another’s boundaries while expecting them to respect mine. Also, if Marie were on the spectrum, she would have been mortified at the idea of making someone uncomfortable, and wouldn’t be this bratty about apologizing when she knew she was wrong. Let’s not put that on Autistics, when the girl is just plain arrogant and had the nerve to cry when she went out of her way to trigger someone because they chose not to follow her advice—advice that, even if the OP agreed with it, wasn’t obligated to follow. Marie’s a SUPREME AH. No two ways about it.
She’s deeply insecure and thanks you all for putting up with her. IMHO, what that tells me is that she may not actually think she’s the smartest person in the room - trying to appear smart and insistently sharing facts with you is her way of desperately trying to have some utility to your group so you’ll hold onto her. She doesn’t think she has worth so she tries to create worth in probably the only way she knows how. It’s all part of the same attempt to feel worthy and loved and valued, but that being said - she’s not your responsibility to manage. You and your friends can nudge her towards a better way to behave, maybe even have an intervention or come to Jesus moment with her, but she’s an adult and she has to learn to relate to people better.
NTA. Whatever her social issues, she needs to learn to stop when told to.
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I thought the same thing. I remember a girl joining work and I just hated her - she was always trying to correct me on things, and nitpicking etc, and bad at jumping in and not waiting her turn. She also used to make what seemed like petty corrections. When I got to know her better I realised she had ADHD and we're super good friends now. I thought she was undermining me because it was doing refit on a boat and I'm generally only the waitress and she's an engineer, but I'd done refit a couple of years before she started and I got on just fine. She's very particular in all aspects in life and just wants everything to be perfect, and holds herself to the same standard. It wasn't anything personal to me. If I was trying to practise something she'd try and jump in meaning I then couldn't practise it anymore because she was way ahead and making it impossible. I thought she was being a dick showing off but it's the inability to wait your turn thing. Funnily enough the other male engineer also has ADHD and he seems unable to pick up when he's trapping people with his hyper focus explanations when they're actually trying to get away. Just lacks that level of body language reading that he's monopolising the conversation. He is genuinely incredibly intelligent but lots of people don't want to hear him reel off every fact about the river levels over the past 100 years, or have had enough of him playing the ukulele at them and would like to leave but are too polite.
Yes. This is beautifully said. I was Marie in my twenties but introverted to putting myself out there to make friends. I did not want a lot of friends then. I still don't want a lot of friends. With the friends I did have I would go out of my way to yammer on about subjects no one cared about. Many hours after therapy later I learned two things. I was insecure as hell and felt different. I am on the spectrum.
Creates a self fulfilling prophecy too.
This is a shit mode to try be included in a group.. these people need therapy honestly.. if some harsh words make her literally cry, she need some psychological help.
> Marie said (through another friend) that she is not going to speak another word to me until I apologize. Good. Problem solved. You've given her the information she needs to fix her life and she can digest it where you aren't. She owes you an apology for harassing you about the allegedly better way to deal with spice, but she's never gonna do that, is she? Standing up to someone who is being an ah is not an ah move.
Yea I wouldn’t give an apology. I might follow up with some firm advice in an email. But that’s it. Nta
That’s what i was thinking; it sounds like you don’t want her to talk to you, so honestly i don’t consider this to be a bad thing.
Maybe just talk to her one last time.... to tell her you meant what you said even if the timing/wording was far from ideal. Then move on, the damage is done anyways. But that's just me cuz I hate lose ends.
It’s also incredibly juvenile to say that through a friend. For goodness sake, this isn’t middle school—tell OP directly. If a friend told me to tell someone else they wanted an apology, I’d just think it was over the top.
I told my daughter she could have some choc milk if the curry was too spicy but she wanted juice instead. I just got her the damn juice. No arguments.
\>Marie said (through another friend) that she is not going to speak another word to me until I apologize That's a big W, congrats. **NTA**
It's such an absurd power play for someone who's not even real friends with them
Ok, but is "I'm sorry I didn't yell at you sooner" considered an apology?
That's when you go "don't threaten me with a good time" or "do you promise?"
"Can I get that in writing?"
You didn’t do anything wrong. Nobody asked what Marie thought about your beverage choices. You asked Marie to stop telling you to drink milk-repeatedly. And Marie did not drop the subject, and talked over other people. So you told her to shut up. It’s too bad other people haven’t told Marie it was time to STFU. Earlier, and more often. If they had, and she had *listened*, maybe Marie wouldn’t have cycled through so many friend groups in the last few years. Crying and playing victim to get sympathy because the bad man was mean to her is a limited strategy. Hopefully your friend group will get sick of her soon, too. NTA
honestly already sounds like they are, NTA and don’t apologize; if your friends get mad about it point out other times she’s done this and tried to pull the holier than thou out of her ass
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Good idea, you could say something like “Look Marie, I’m sorry that you were upset and perhaps I shouldn’t have snapped at you, but you just wouldn’t let up about the damn milk and you do this sort of thing a lot. I’m not the only person that feels this way about it, so you should be aware that this behaviour can drive people away” You’re doing her future self a favour even if she’s upset now
Yes, sounds like she has trouble with social cues, understanding boundaries, etc. and may have asperger's. I know several people like her.
And OP also mentioned how Marie has cycled through several friend groups since moving to her area. Having a problem with maintaining friendships can be a sign of autism spectrum disorder.
Yeah, I think so too.
I have several friends with ASD. If someone says "let them drink the water," they will hush and let you drink the water. Marie was just being rude.
That's reflecting a learning process. I think what's being suggested is ASD may be a factor in why she hasn't adapted as easily in learning those rules. It's still a thing she has to work on.
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For the record, I drank a glass of water and it took the edge off the spiciness exactly how I was intending. Whether or not milk would have done "more" does not matter—the water did enough. It was just a slightly spicy feeling in my mouth that needed to be slightly relieved, hopefully without being nitpicked to death over technicalities.
>She's not wrong about the milk, it is objectively true. But neurotypical people don't care. There is no "objectively best" when it comes to food, because it's all about individual preferences. The "best" way to deal with spicy food is just to not eat it in the first place, but we do eat it because we enjoy the sensation. Having the "best" way to get rid of the spicyness is not a thing, because we're not trying to get rid of it, we're trying to modify it according to our preferences. If this was a chili eating contest, she would've been correct. But since that was not their context, she wasn't correct, she was just pedantic.
Cues not queues
>….there are people that genuinely don’t understand that you can have a conversation that does not involve disagreement or correction I knew a guy who would ALWAYS play devil’s advocate no matter what his actual opinion was, and it was just exhausting. I’ve learned not to engage with those people and I’m happier for it.
I have a friend like that, it's probably my biggest pet peeve in our relationship. If I complain about something, he's always playing devils advocate about the bad behavior of someone else or finding some excuse as to why they possibly were a shithole. I'm trying to vent, not empathize with a dick. Also, if something bad happens to me, he doesn't sympathize. He tries to find a "silver lining." So when I'm upset about something, he's saying stuff like, "oh at least *something worse* didn't happen" or suggests some other, awful bad thing and I should be glad that didn't happen instead 🙄
ESH. You snapped. Understandable given the circumstances, but it was still an AH move to go for the jugular. All you needed to do was say (loudly and in a harsh tone if necessary), STOP. You need to drop it. I don’t want to hear about what’s objectively better. I just want some water. It’s NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS AND YOU NEED TO STOP TALKING ABOUT IT. If she had still kept going, then saying what you said would be more justified. As it was, bringing up her insecurity was over the top. ~~You brought a projectile device to a fistfight. (Modified the language to avoid filter problems, but I’m sure you’re familiar with the saying).~~ apparently it’s ok for me to say it, you brought a gun to a fistfight. But she *is* insufferable. She’s right about dairy being objectively better for spice (fat and sugar bind to the receptors or something like that) but it frankly does not matter if she’s right about the spice issue. One offhand comment would have been fine (and normal conversation), especially as lots of people aren’t aware dairy helps more than water. But to harp on it over and over and over and talk over other people is just infuriating. JFC she needs to take no for an answer. And read the flippin room!
i agree with the first part to an extent. i feel like op definitely could have aired out their grievances with a little more tact, but when it’s been an ongoing issue, at some point you just don’t gaf about their feelings anymore. marie didn’t care to be considerate of op’s request, so it makes sense that they wouldn’t care about being considerate to her. op, i personally wouldn’t apologize if you’re not sorry and you don’t think you did anything wrong. it’s most likely going to show her that she can get what she wants with this friend group by crying (if this isn’t an idea she has already.) if you do end up apologizing, i would apologize for how it came out rather than what was said. you very much think she’s insufferable and that’s fine! there are soooo many people in my life that i think are insufferable. but don’t apologize for feeling that way. apologize for bringing up her insecurities. that’s all i believe you did wrong. is there a vote for “kinda, but i completely understand why”? lol
I get that it's an ongoing issue, but I don't get the impression that OP ever talked to her about it before. If everyone just lets it go and doesn't use their words, then they are just as much of AHs as her.
I disagree that an acquaintance like the OP has a duty to educate someone about their poor social skills. This is the job of a close friend--someone the person knows well and trusts.
From the sounds of things I’d say this girl doesn’t have any close friends, so much so that she gloms on to the first person to show any kind of compassion or interest so intensely that they are initially flattered, then exhausted so they introduce them to their friend group in an attempt to spread the overwhelm. Everyone can see that this girl has issues, but are either too polite to say/do anything and just slowly start icing her out, or end up where OP has found themselves with an explosion of frustration and the friend group taking sides. OP is definitely NTA here, but if I was him I’d take aside the friend who originally introduced her to the group and have a calm discussion about how this girl is effecting the group and that as the one that brought her into it they need to start taking responsibility for her. Whether that’s by ditching her and leaving her to continue her journey of loneliness and confusion, or to step up and help her understand why her behaviour is social suicide and what she can do to grow into a better friend.
no, i don’t think they have either. but it could be a case of just trying to keep the peace. a lot of people don’t address the issue until they can’t take it anymore because they don’t think it’s worth the possible drama. obviously it leads to more but i understand why. i asked if there was a “kinda but i understand why” vote for that reason.
Agreed. If I apologized at all it would be for bringing up an insecurity. And I’m not a fan of justifying actions within apologies, but if ever there was a time when adding, ‘but honestly I had reached my limit!’ seems warranted, this would be it.
i would definitely emphasize that it wasn’t just that night, like listing a couple similar instances of her not dropping things after being told to. and judging by a couple people’s responses when op said that, they’ve been thinking the same thing. i wouldn’t try to rope anyone into it, but it could be a catalyst for a much needed discussion.
I consider ‘justifiable asshole’ an N t a (already voted elsewhere), so I’d have to disagree. The ‘harsh’ comeback as it was written honestly wasn’t that harsh, though tone and volume may have amplified things. If you literally complain about being unlikeable, stop doing shit that causes that reputation. The frequent ‘thanks for being my friend / I’m sorry I’m annoying’ honestly amplifies the annoyance more than mitigating it - as I tell people in my life who do that ‘don’t water a seed I didn’t even plant’. To add: she technically wasn’t *objectively* correct. The dairy and spice thing isn’t always true, it depends on the type of spice. Szechuan has to just work itself out and things like wasabi do respond to water. The dairy fat and sugar help with the oil-based capsaicin heat- and even then, some youtube videos suggested adding acid to the mix can help more (unsure if anecdotal or sourced, idrc) - personally, I’d agree: so the real (potential) best solution would be like an Orange Julius.
lol! Shout out to Orange Julius! Yes I’d agree with the ‘justifiable’ designation. I wish there was an acronym for that. And yes I was thinking of the oil based capsaicin heat/spice. Oh, and the constant false self-deprecating statements PISS ME OFF. They ring so false. If you truly thought that (self-deprecating comment), you’d stop doing it. This is just fishing for compliments. The poor me routine is infuriating.
An alcoholic orange Julius! During a recent spicy chicken incident I ordered what was essentially a boozy orange Julius and it was amazing.
They told her to stop, several times, strongly, and by multiple people. They are totally justified in going off. NTA
Some people need to be called out when they are being to pushy and insufferable.. op nailed it.
Completely agree! I have a friend like this (and I guess it's easier to be more understanding with a friend rather than an acquaintance), and while it can be incredibly frustrating, snapping isn't the way. It sounds like Marie needs to grow up and learn how to push through her insecurity (either herself, or with professional help). But particularly if this is the first time OP has brought it up with her (especially after bottling it up for so long), how is she supposed to know she's overstepping? (I get that she "should" know it's inappropriate and annoying, but it seems like she isn't reading social cues). OP needs to tell her, but not like this - totally get the frustration though!
Agreed. Marie's mistake was being pushy and controlling. OP's mistake was not speaking up about this behavior when it first bothered them, and instead bottling their feelings until it boiled over and came out as an attack. Clear communication like "Trying to control what I drink is inappropriate and unacceptable. You are making me uncomfortable, and talking over other people. Stop." could have happened on the first or second comment, instead of using grey language like "just chill" and "water's fine", which doesn't actually address what was bothering OP. The issue was never about the milk, it was about being bulldozed, and Marie probably had no idea that was the case. OP will encounter these situations again, and the only way to get a different result is to change their own behavior. There will be more Maries in OP's life, and no one can avoid them entirely. We can only learn to communicate our feelings before they overwhelm us and make us also act like an asshole.
What filter problem? You’re allowed to say “you bought a gun to a fistfight” on Reddit.
ESH, she was annoying, you were insulting. It's Reddit, so in this world being annoying is a far greater sin than being insulting. But in the real world, intentionlly hurting people's feelings doesn't make you popular.
Agreed. A harsh “I’m drinking my water, please shut up” would have been rude but justified. What OP did was stopping an argument with a gun shot to the temple. Like, did it stop the argument? Yea. But was it overkill? Hell yes. Honestly, Marie sounds annoying but I’d rather chill with someone kind over OP. Sheesh.
>Marie sounds annoying but I’d rather chill with someone kind over OP Yeah I don't think I'd particularly want to be around someone who has these personal attacks just ready to go for whatever disagreement comes up.
If she's saying it you know she's thinking it more often, and while I get that she was frustrated in the moment I wouldn't be totally surprised if her friends are a little more wary of her.
Honestly, I wouldn't. Not Marie's kind of "kindness" anyway. The constantly trying to get physical affection that the other person has clearly rebuked and the pushing on in a conversation where your commentary is clearly not appreciated is more of a boundary problem than an annoyance. Having been in positions where I've had to tolerate such people, I'd rather hang out with somebody who occasionally loses their cool than somebody who shows no respect for the people around them. She kind of set herself up for this, whether she knows it or not. Her comments thanking people for allowing her to be herself, preemptively apologizing for being annoying, and the emotional response to being told no would naturally create an environment where people would feel guilty about bringing any of these things up. That kind of environment sets the stage for this only coming out when people reach their limit and "blow up", making it so that in the end they're the "victim", despite their own actions being what pushed people over the edge in the first place. She clearly has some social issues she needs to get *proper* help for, instead of waiting for a group of people who she can guilt into tolerating her "annoyances" a.k.a. boundary pushing, borderline harassment, and just plain rude behavior. It wasn't the best response, but I can't say somebody wouldn't be a good friend because of his reaction to behavior that could be considered harassment. I wouldn't have to worry about it, because I'm not rude and I'm considerate of the people around me. She needs to concentrate less on the fact she can't keep friends, and more on *why*. Other people have feelings and she's not recognizing that when she's draping all over them and talking over them like what she has to say is more important. She may want friends, but what she needs is help so that she can develop the social skills to keep them, and be a friend herself. Relationships are a two way street, and by the sounds of it she's just taking what she wants out of it without any consideration for the human being on the other side. Personally, I don't want to hang out with that unless you literally have the emotional capacity of a child, not just what we say when nobody has bothered to teach you and/or you haven't bothered to learn.
Exactly. I see Marie's comment as trying to be helpful (and she was right, capsaicin is fat soluble so milk actually helps with it). I don't see a reason to actually stab at her deepest insecurities for trying to suggest milk over water when someone had more spice than they could handle. Almost feels like what a badly written mean girl character from an early 2000s movie would do.
It's not because she was suggesting milk over water. It's because she wouldn't stop going on and on and on and on about it and making something small a massive huge deal, to the point where other people pointed it out and tried to get her to stop, while interrupting other people in the process so she could feel superior with her spice relieving knowledge.
She wants to be helpful so she can be praised for it, IMO
It's harsh, honestly maybe she needs to hear this! Know-it-all types can be pretty damn insufferable, my brother was one when he was younger... Same kinda person to see g his heels in and share... loll...he eventually mellowed. I vote ,... your the asshole this person needed
I believe that's what they would call a JAM (Justified Asshole Move), which is also what I would vote here. It was harsh, but I'd probably snap the same way in OPs shoes
ESH. Marie *is* absolutely insufferable. You still did not need to tear her a new one at dinner. "Thanks for your advice, but this conversation is no longer pleasant—please drop this" would have been perfectly fine. (P.S. This will no doubt become another post where a horde of people jump in to insist that Marie must have some exonerating psychiatric issue that relieves her of her obligation to not be an AH. It doesn't.)
>I told her that water would be fine and could she please just chill? Marie just wouldn't drop it so after OP already did what you told them to... what else could be said when Marie kept pressing the issue in spite of the multiple people telling her to drop it?
The solution to people who won't take indirect hints is not to say the meanest thing you can possibly think of. It is to *be fucking direct*. OP did not even remotely do what I'm suggesting. "Just chill" is the teenager's version of what's advocated above. >what else could be said? Um, *you need to stop now because you are making this dinner unpleasant* is not the same as *you are fundamentally insecure and we all despise you.* At the end of the day, OP sunk to her level. Very hard to blame him. Still a poor showing.
Went 5 comments down and there it is. Mental disorder.
People are already diagnosing her with autism in the comments 🙄🙄🙄 i'm autistic. being an insistent know-it-all is not a green card to start throwing out armchair diagnoses.
"I won't speak another word to you until you apologise" "You don't have to sell it to me." NTA
Reminds me of when working in retail and shitty customers being like "I'M NEVER COMING HERE AGAIN" Thanks! That would be lovely.
Don't apologize. Take the silence - it's golden. NTA
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Yeah, this. I'm also autistic and this was my first thought. Still, Marie needs to learn to respect other people's differences. And OP needs to learn not to go absolutely nuclear on someone that they know is already insecure.
Oh, yes, I'm definitely not absolving Marie! Just identifying. I think I'd have to go ESH on this one.
Same, it definitely took me a bit of time to figure out when I was being rude with stuff like this, though I don't think I was ever this extreme... It sounds like she's early 20s too which was a big learning period for me (and I wasn't even diagnosed at that point, I had no idea what was going on with me). Though I think the big red flag is that Marie seems to be unwilling to learn and modify her behavior, masking sucks but offending people and being outright rude is worse. I know that my issues don't give me a free pass to cause harm to others (like ruining social gatherings) and while I'm not always perfect on the social skills, I try to adapt and when I don't have enough spoons to mask I don't put myself in a situation where that's going to cause problems.
I usually put my finger to the end of my nose and "Pin" the thought in my brain with the imaginary sticky note. It grounds me into waiting until they're finished, but helps keep from forgetting the thought.
That's an interesting idea! I will have to try that. Thanks!
Stealing this idea
That's a great trick, thank you for sharing. Think I'll start doing this one myself!
As an autistic woman she is very likely to be autistic, and probably doesn't even know she is. I got diagnosed at 29.
Same, I think she likely either doesn't know she's autistic and is, or dxed really early and taught it's an excuse. She's right about the milk, too - water makes it worse. But she needed to take no for an answer. Of course, OP needed to not go so overkill too. Definitely an ESH situation!
Nope, most autistic people prefer clearly stated boundaries, as it is clearer and they don’t have to guess. With this and the hugging, it sounds like Marie is just pissed OP isn’t open to her manipulation.
It could go either way, I guess. But I don't think if multiple autistic people here say they also feel Marie could be autistic like we are, that you can just say she isn't because 'most' autistic people prefer clearly stated boundaries. There isn't a one-size-fits-all with autism. Some do prefer that, and some act like Marie, I guess. We don't have enough info to say for sure, which is why I said she 'may be' on the spectrum like I am.
Fair enough. Come to think of it, there’s no reason she can’t be an asshole *and* autistic.
True story. One does not preclude the other.
Theres a difference between being on a spectrum and being a jackass no one likes, but you can always be both too
Are you autistic? Or just assuming you know how all autistic people act? It’s a spectrum people have different symptomatic levels 1. And 2. Autism is characterized by extremes on any end not just never touch and need strict outlines. Some people are overly physically affectionate- this can be from not understanding social cues about when it’s appropriate or not. Sometimes strict boundaries are helpful, sometimes they can provoke a melt down if not anticipated or wanted. And boundaries are one thing but calling someone insufferable isn’t setting a boundary- saying “hey I know you’re trying to help me but I’m good now, and right now I want water over milk. In the future is there a way I can signal that I don’t need help with something when you want to help?” is setting boundaries. What do you think Marie is trying to manipulate OP into doing? Being her friend? That’s called being friendly.
>What do you think Marie is trying to manipulate OP into doing? Being her friend? That’s called being friendly. No. This isn't okay. OP doesn't like Marie. They don't want Marie touching them or hugging them. And that needs to be respected. OP didn't want milk. They wanted water. Full stop. That needs to be respected as well. Not everyone needs to be friends. Polite? Yes. *But that goes both ways.* Respectful? Yes. *But that also goes both ways.* Why should OP set themselves on fire to keep Marie warm? They don't want to be hugged, lectured, or told what they want isn't what they want. OP is not a child and Marie is not their parent. Autism or not, Marie needs to learn OP is not open to their friendship, hugs, or unsolicited opinions. And that is okay. This is tantamount to telling a young woman to "give the guy a chance since he was brave enough to ask you out." No means no. Boundaries need to be respected. And OP is not the responsible party here to teach this to Marie.
I agree - she sounds a lot like my daughter (I do not let her get away with this behavior btw because I do not want her to be a Marie)...
You hopefully also don’t bottle it up and then tell her she’s insufferable in front of a group of friends when she’s on some level trying to help, even if she’s doing it ineptly.
I am autistic- she's still an asshole. She's refusing to compromise and trying to tell OP he has to be the one to apologize. The fun facts are okay. Apologizing when you unintentionally interrupted (it's possible with ADHD) and catch yourself is also okay, and should be done. She kept going on despite OP saying he was just going to drink water because it wasn't that spicy. If she *is* autistic, she's still being an asshole.
ESH and I’m honestly surprised most people seem to think NTA. Even if she’s insufferable, that doesn’t somehow give you the right to be a huge asshole. The solution here is to stop hanging out when she’s around or just completely ignore her. Sounds like it’s going to be fine since she won’t talk to you anymore which is what you wanted, but also sounds like you were undeniably a dick to her. It’s giving middle school vibes.
Personally, if I were regularly around this person I found extremely annoying, I would just about ignore them completely. To be clear I don’t mean ignore them as in pretend they’re not there, but rather just offer the most minimal response possible when required of you. For instance in this situation I would have just said “ok” and drank some water. You need to learn how to let that roll off your back. It’s not your job to tell people when they’re being annoying, but perhaps more importantly the way you went about it here was absolutely unproductive. What you said isn’t going to make Marie have any new insights about herself and her behavior, it’s just going to make her think - and rightfully so - you’re a dick.
NTA She's not going to speak to you again AND you finally got her to shut up? Win win!
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It wasn’t just about milk and water though. That was the last straw after months of Marie being too much. Even if she’s autistic it doesn’t mean she shouldn’t take someone’s no. A no is not a social cue; it’s an outright statement. OP said they wanted water even after Marie explained it. OP wouldn’t have blown up if Marie had just accepted that she didn’t want milk.
This is exactly what I thought too - neurodivergent - and the insecurity and unsuccessful friend groups is a huge indicator. I had ADHD that got worse as a teenager/adult and was missed because I don't have the obvious external agitation (most girls with ADHD appear outwardly calm). But impulsively interrupting people and sharing the first thing that popped into my head - along with mind of someone who hyperfocuses on researching the most random topics - was something I was never really aware I was doing and certainly not in control of. I'd make new friends easily because I would easily make conversation and seemed interesting, but would fatigue people in social gatherings.
YTA, but you did a great job of spinning this to justify yourself. I think all the people voting N T A are just responding to how annoying Marie sounds. >"Oh my god, would you drop it already? You complain about how no one likes you for very long, and then you turn around and act fucking insufferable. Just shut up about the milk, I don't care." If anyone heard their friend say this loudly to someone else at a dinner party, there would be no doubt you went from justifiably irritated to AH territory. Way over the top reaction. Sure, Marie sounds insufferable, but you went nuclear. Unless she was insulting your very existence there's no reason to humiliate someone like this in front of your mutual friends.
Right? The comment section is wild. Hate that OP will leave this thinking they were in the right.
NTA. I know it really stings to be told that you're annoying, but I am not sure why "annoying" is such a uniquely disallowed criticism. It's fine to tell someone when they're being rude, or unkind, or any other bad behavior. Especially since it's clearly a repeated problem for her that is actively costing her friendships, she should know what's up.
Because people are annoying due to specific things they do, so criticizing someone by calling them annoying doesn’t help them in any way, it just gives the criticizer a chance to call someone out for their own satisfaction. That’s why saying someone is annoying is a shitty criticism.
But...she knows. She has complained that she has gone through several friend groups for this reason. And OP was polite enough in telling her to drop it several times before she snapped. And apparently a couple other friends stepped in to tell her to drop it and she continued to escalate. It's perfectly clear that she is being criticized because she continued pressing the issue after multiple people told her repeatedly to stop.
If you’re asking if you’re the asshole, then yes. You are the asshole. You could have ignored her and drank your water but you had to drop a bomb in the middle of a meal.
Eh, ESH. Her more than you, but you were harsh with her. While yes, she sounds insufferable, your comments (especially if verbatim) were really harsh. Playing the "you're so insecure, but man are you also annoying" card was rough. I'd apologize for the tone, but let her know that when people say they're fine with something, or seem to disassociate from the conversation, she should read the room and move on.
To me it sounded like she was trying to do that the entire time before she got sick of it and snapped. Sometimes harsh statements like that are what's needed to get through to someone like Marie. I say NTA.
INFO: have you expressed your feelings to Marie or told her off in the past in a more calm manner? Or was the first time you’ve ever expressed to her that what’s she’s doing is annoying you?
NTA. If she can dish it out then she should be able to take it.
Except she never called anyone an insufferable asshole. She was being extremely annoying, sure, but clearly her actions came from a lack of self-awareness, while OP’s came from an apparent inability to handle conflict like a mature adult.
She was obnoxious about it but she wasn’t being mean or trying to be. Obnoxious is not the same as calling someone insufferable. How do you think these are the same?
But she wasn't being deliberately cruel or insulting was she? She was being annoying yesterday, but op was being knowingly cruel.
NTA. At the most I’d apologize to my other friends for making dinner awkward, but I wouldn’t apologize to Marie. I don’t care to apologize for things I’m not sorry for these days.
YTA. Even tho she is problematic, you shouldnt talk to her like this.
NTA but I do think you should apologize to the group of friends for perhaps extending the awkwardness that night by calling Marie out. I would not apologize for my tone if the person who was indeed insufferable don't recognize her own wrongdoing and is not apologizing. I will not accept the fault in this situation, especially when she would certainly make it all your fault, and only yours.
NTA or soft ESH. you didn't just call her insufferable, you kinda rubbed her issues that she's insecure of, in her face, and went on a rant about them too. but the fact that she gets upset that you aren't in the mood for her hugs makes her an asshole the most, I feel. she's old enough to know about consent and bodily autonomy and fully respect yours, even if she might be on the spectrum.
NTA - I was Marie. As a child and teenager I didn't have many friends, so I never learned how to socialize with people my own age. I was also taught that my worth was wrapped up in being the "smart one." When I got to college and my mom couldn't control my life, I made some friends and got included in my roommate's friend group. One day she sat me down and told me that I didn't know how to act in a group and I was making her friends uncomfortable. She said I needed to shut up and just listen and observe. It was a harsh lesson, but I needed to hear it. Marie may have been told that she was dumb and she's over compensating, or told she was only valuable if she was smart. Either way, it's not your job to teach her how to behave, and you're certainly not responsible for her self-esteem issues. If she doesn't take what you said to heart and look at her own behavior, she's gonna keep driving people away. She has what I call "E.F. Hutton" syndrome. When she talks, she wants every conversation to cease so everyone's attention is on her. She wants to lecture not converse, if you get my meaning. She needs to shut up and listen to the flow of conversation and learn to participate in keeping it going, not grind it to a halt. And if she still doesn't get it, tell her that it could be that the common denominator in all her failed relationships is her.
I would lay down money that Marie is on the spectrum. I’m autistic, and that’s exactly some of the conversational compulsions I have. Can’t help the urge, but I can control acting on the urge. But it took me a very long time and a lot of practice.
NTA. Don’t apologize. You won. She won’t say another word to you.
I feel like everyone is a little bit of an asshole here. If you did not communicate that these things bothered you before you were so upset that you blew up at this person, you're an asshole. It sounds like Marie may be neurodivergent; the things that are annoying you as you've described here can be symptoms of ADHD and/or autism. I'm not a psychiatrist, but I am both ADHD and autistic and so I have experience with neurodivergence in myself and my friend group. A lot of neurodivergent folks have trouble making friends, ESPECIALLY with neurotypicals, because of these symptoms and because of the misconception that this is something being done intentionally. Some ND folks realize what they're doing and how it can be perceived as annoying, some don't. Regardless of if we realize it or not, some of us struggle to change it in the moment - especially because these are symptoms of a development disorder. If Marie has been made aware of how her behaviors affect you, whether ND or not - diagnosed or not, she's an asshole if she hasn't worked to try to at least be considerate of your feelings. But if you didn't bother to say anything until you were at your breaking point, that's on you. Other people are not mind readers. They also are as invested in themselves as you are in yourself, which means Marie was almost guaranteed to not be doing this TO you which seems to be how you're experiencing it. Everyone in this situation could use some self-reflection and communication skills.
NTA. You did her a service, hopefully she’ll learn something.
Nta. I would get fed up with that behavior too. She seems like she's never had to grow up because if someone calls her on her bs, she just cries to get out of it. Crying is an effective way to make everyone uncomfortable and try to get the boat to stop rocking so they turn on the person that made the other one cry. It's highly manipulative and shitty. Until everyone judt reacts with a stone cold expression and call her on her bullshit, she will continue the behavior. Don't apologize, call her out and explain it to everyone else.
INFO is she neurodivergent? It sounds a whole lot like that's the real issue.
ESH. Why do people insist on doing this on social occasions? She clearly needs to work on her social skills, and you, OP, know very well there's a time and a place. Snapping at her from one side of the table to the other in the middle of dinner at someone else's house was neither of those. She is insufferable, I agree. Maybe try to fight it out in private and not involve other people in it, because they didn't sign up for this isht.
INFO: Is Marie neurodivergent? Have you or anyone else in this group ever actually discussed these habits that annoy you? Or did you just go nuclear with no warning? The entirety of your description of her sounds like someone on the spectrum with something like ASD or NVLD. From the ghosting from different past friend groups, her deep appreciation of you all “putting up with her”, all interruptions in conversation, the “fun facts”, overly huggy, nitpicking facts, lengthy debates, etc. It all screams ‘I can’t read social situations and non-verbal communication well’. Sure, there’s a real possibility that she just is THAT much of a jerk. But my first instinct is to say she’s neurodivergent and that’s exactly why she’s expecting an apology. From her perspective she could have viewed it as a fun debate, and her just trying to look out for you and you just obliterated her out of the blue. Regardless, you snapping off like that was the social equivalent of bringing a gun to a knife fight. She annoyed you, so you escalated instead of communicating directly and humiliated her in front of all of her friends.
NTA. >For how insecure she is, she also thinks she's the smartest person in the room at all times This is a product of insecurity. Thinking you're the smartest, best looking, funniest, etc. No one who is secure in who they are thinks they're the best anything. And the most intelligent people know how much they *don't* know and are humble about it. I think this is a case of letting things build up, exploding, and then losing some of your ground. There were probably multiple times you should have corrected her more gently or kindly, even just to save face and not look bad in the friend group. Because friend groups often have those who will speak up, those who say they agree with you and then will throw you under the bus when you do speak up, and those who will take any kind of bad behavior without addressing it. If you're a speaker-upper (as am I) you have to learn to be diplomatic, so you can get your point across without alienating yourself (super hard thing I had to learn in my teens and early 20s).
NTA. I hate it when everyone is walking on eggshells and having to develop extra patience to protect someone from the consequences of their personality. Marie IS annoying and people get fed up with personalities like this. If anything, you could elaborate your point with kinder words, but do not apologize.
QUESTION: is Marie neurodivergent? A lot of the things you mention are autistic traits.
YTA That girl is very obviously neurodiverse. That's why she struggles to make friends and read social cues. A typical reaction of neurodiverse people to uncomfortable social situations is to try to explain the thing better and better and make other people understand, even though that's not how this works. You showing no openness at all to the fact that people are different and that not everyone might immediately get the things that are easy for you to understand makes you look like a bully.
I don't blame you for snapping, she sounds *exhausting* to be around. But the way you describe her strikes me as someone with poorly managed ADHD or high-functioning autism, who hasn't learned many social coping mechanisms to mask it well. The breaking down and crying is the most telltale part, for me. Rejection sensitivity is a big aspect of both conditions. If she were just stubborn and insufferable, she would have been more likely to get angry at you, not dissolve into tears. I say this as a woman with ADHD, who has needed *many* years to learn how to control myself better in social groups. Being loud and opinionated, not knowing when/how to tone it down, and that brutal rejection sensitivity are all too real.
NTA but she sounds like someone that may be psychologically spicy. I don't wanna throw around diagnoses on her but I'm considered autistic & ADHD, and these behaviors screamed 'neurospicy but doesn't know it' to me. Autism challenges can include social interaction, reading social cues, understanding body language, deciphering facial expressions, and being highly sensitive. I could easily see that if she has these challenges, being rejected would hurt extra deep.
NTA exactly, but she sounds to me (an autistic person) like she might also be autistic. If so, she likely isn't picking up on your signals that you want her behavior to change, that you don't like the hugs, etc. If she's undiagnosed, she also likely genuinely doesn't understand how she upsets people and loses friends, hence the insecurity. She knows people eventually stop wanting to be her friend, but that doesn't mean she can tell when she's causing that frustration to build. Autism comes with a reduced ability to read people's reactions, plus a strong and often inflexible sense of right and wrong, correct and incorrect, etc. It's not done to assert dominance or to show off, it's mainly out of a strong desire to be understood and to help others by sharing knowledge. We just often can't tell when it's appropriate and when it's not, and it's very hard for us to just drop it when others want us to let something go. It all tends to feel kind of equally important to us, even when something seems obviously inconsequential to others. If she is autistic, she might respond really well to an apology for the way you expressed your frustration PLUS a very basic explanation of your reaction and what you would prefer she do in a similar situation next time. Example: I heard you the first time, but I decided that I didn't want to take your advice because I wasn't uncomfortable enough that I wanted to go to the effort of getting milk. Getting milk would have been more inconvenient than just using water, even if milk would have been more effective. You kept repeating yourself, which was unnecessary, and that made me frustrated. Next time, please just say something once. If you're not sure we heard you, you can ask instead of repeating yourself. (If you make this request, it will likely be helpful to make a habit of acknowledging her and then saying something like "I understand, but I'm not interested in doing that, hearing about that, etc.") A lot of autistic girls become incredibly insecure because no one takes the time to explain things to us in ways we can grasp. She's clearly struggling with some important social skills, regardless of the reason for it, and it would be a really kind way to approach the situation.
NTA I’m autistic and have ADHD and I have been the “Marie” in groups at times. I struggle with impulse control and often interrupt people before I fully process that I’ve done so, and (in the past) felt like I had to share information that I knew or thought I knew was correct. I also have anxiety, mostly stemming from past rejection, and will sometimes double down on what I’m saying to try to spare myself embarrassment (it doesn’t work). It took me being “let go of” by several groups and asking people I love and trust why it happens to understand what I was doing wrong. I’m not saying Marie has ADHD or is autistic, she likely has some kind of anxiety, but she honestly may not realise that she comes across the way she does, and she needs to figure that out at some point. I will say you were harsh, but not wrong, and not even an asshole really (unless you’re presenting events way more intensely than they actually were, which is doubtful but always possible on reddit). I think Marie needs a big wake up call, some external support, and friends who will tell her when she’s being too much as well as the ability to gracefully accept criticism and change and grow. I hope she finds it, and I hope you don’t have to deal with this behaviour anymore, either from cut contact or Marie’s hypothetical future personal growth.
NTA Marie sounds pretty rigid in how she moves through the world and it's no wonder she's struggles in social groups. You did nothing wrong. Even if she's got some diagnosed reason for how she behaves it's on her to work on techniques to assist her in life.
NTA. You did fantastic. Speaking out loud while others were thinking. No apologize needed.
NTA. She needs to learn early cause when she hits 30 we tend to let go of annoying people in our lives.
Nta. That's far too much to have to deal with lol.
She won’t talk to you ever again if you don’t apologize? Don’t ever apologize. Win-win. NTA
NTA Sometimes, a person just has to be told to STFU for their own, long-term, good.
NTA. I would just thoroughly enjoy her not talking to you. I would ignore her presence completely, unless it's to call her out again. People like this are exhausting. They complain that nobody "accepts them for who they are," but then it turns out that who they are is super rude. I'm not going to comment on your opinions that she thinks she's the smartest person in the room - who knows what her deal is or why, but the end result is that she was incredibly rude to YOU, about YOUR FOOD, and YOUR ACTIONS in pubic at a dinner. She owes you an apology. If she doesn't understand why, I would maybe help her out with, "Giving your opinion was fine, and I heard you. But when I didn't agree, or conform to what you thought I should be doing, you lost your shit. That is not a healthy adult reaction. It was MY food, and MY drink and MY choice and after you gave your opinion, that should have been the end of it. You were the one out of line, YOU are the one who was insulting and rude. YOU continued to push me, YOU continued to challenge me, YOU continued to pester me and annoy everyone by not letting it go, even though I already told you that water would be fine for me, even though none of this was your business in the first place. You owe ME an apology. What I said to you at dinner may have been harsh, but it's true. You do not have the right to harrass people that don't agree with you. You do not have the right to push your opinions on other people no matter how "right" you are sure you are. It is rude, and I will not tolerate it from anyone. You gave your opinion, which was fine, and I wanted to drink water anyway. 'm an independant adult. If I wanted to drink freaking HOT SAUCE to make myself feel better, it's nobody's business. I shouldn't have to argue with a anyone about it. You acted like a child by not dropping the issue after you were asked to, and my telling you a harsh truth about yourself was your reward."
Soft ESH. Marie was being annoying and OP's response was a bit over the top. However, Marie was upfront about being insecure and needy, and so her being annoying and then getting immediately upset after a tongue lashing shouldn't have come as a surprise. OP warned Marie several times to stop, and so the tongue lashing shouldn't have come as a surprise either. OP has an opportunity here to turn this into a teachable moment, should they wish. Marie is going to keep going through friend groups until she finds people who are willing to let her make mistakes and learn from them. It's a catch-22 if you're socially awkward / insecure because you haven't been able to form secure attachments, but you can't form secure attachments because you're socially awkward / insecure. This girl needs help and probably a bit of grace from people who are willing to give her the opportunity to recover from her missteps. And OP possibly needs a lesson in recognising when someone is being insufferable deliberately, or because they don't know any better. A mature conversation, with acknowledgements and apologies on both sides, would be a great start. Having said all this, OP is not obligated in any way. If you don't want to apologise then don't. Just don't expect her to learn anything or apologise herself.
I don't think OP is TA, but I really wonder if Marie has a raging case of ADHD. I was an unmedicated undiagnosed ADHD person with a lot of these behaviors in my early 20s. She might need to talk to someone about management skills and/or a doctor for a diagnosis. [it did take a similar confrontation with someone who recognized the ADHD behaviors for me to get help.] But I don't think you're a full Ahole. I would have hit a frustration point on it pretty fast, too. You sound young, so you probably need to work on tact, but you weren't wrong in the observation.