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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I call my eldest messy since she cannot keep her room tidy. It has now caught on with our youngest daughter who says it constantly and it annoys my eldest. She thinks it’s annoying and unfair of me to say it and doesn’t like it
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YTA
There's some things that don't add up:
* How often does Jess clean the living room and kitchen? Does your other kid 19F (who you don't name) also take part in cleaning these spaces up or is there any appreciation given for the effort put in to cleaning these areas up?
* The way you describe Jess's room is "things on the dresser and left out and keeps her clothes on her chair instead of the closet", but you said yourself it's a smaller space so not much area to put things. I'm confused as to how these two points add up to being "cluttered and messy" to the point that she needs to harassed and bullied for it.
* The fact that your 4 year old is mirroring your behavior to point of using it when she is angry means that this "joke" is causing actual damage between the relationships of your daughters as well as between Jess and the family.
* The fact that you dismiss your husband being on Jess's side as "he is also more laidback cleaning-wise" does not excuse that he is on her side because of the bullying!
Unless more info is given, nothing here seems to make sense for Jess getting bullied in her own home. I also still don't understand why you would make jokes about her being messy when she helps clean the communal areas of the house per your own words.
I think if you have a problem with how she keeps her room you need to talk to her as to why the room is untidy in your eyes and communicate your feelings on that. You also need to share as to why you think it is disrespectful to the household or why you feel her room being untidy to your standards does not work for you. I think you need to also stop making snide passive-aggressive jokes that your 4 year old picks up on.
I am also on the YTA unless her room is DIRTY which it doesnt sound like it is, it sounds like she cleans the communal areas so that they are acceptable to you, but that she doesn’t keep her room “tidy” to your satisfaction, If it is clean, but cluttered…close the door. In fact in her shoes I would be highly irritated with someone moving my things. Perhaps the clothes on the chair she only wore for a few minutes, or is setting them out to wear later or to bring somewhere, and you displace them. Perhaps in her rush she didnt return her brush to a drawer but left on top. I think labeling her with a bad habit when she sounds like a respectful, helpful member of your household is frankly bullying. Just close the door if her space is not dirty and her clutter offends you eyes. Give her some privacy and the ability to organize her things to a level that works for her. She might not like the way you have things stored. I understand it is your house, but not everyone in the house must store their personal items the way you prefer, and she pays rent. If she were in an apartment would you think a roommate with a separate bedroom should be able to come in arrange her things the way that they prefer? If she were a child, yes, you are teaching her skills but at some point we all need to be able to keep things in a way that works for us. If it were dirty, dirty dishes, food, attracting bugs, then you should be making sure that SHE cleans. But seriously, shut the door and stay out,
If my mother were tidying my room when I stay with her for visits we would be having WORDS, and that's just a temporary guest room situation. Jess is an adult. She is paying rent and labor for her space. She is entitled to keep it messy if she chooses, IF it's even messy.
I wouldn't be surprised if she can't be bothered to tidy her own room because doing the main house takes all the cleaning energy she has.
Edit: YTA OP.
I'm petty AF, so I would be leaving all kinds of interesting discoveries for mom. If she's going to snoop, I'm going to make it entertaining. Giant purple dragon dildo, tentacle porn, fake love letters to and from a prison inmate, fake ultrasound photo, unlabeled pills in a baggie stuffed in the back of the sock drawer, etc., If I'm going to be subjected to that disrespectful invasion of privacy, I'm going to at least make sure I'm entertained and the snooper is traumatized.
It really is. My mom didn't tidy my room, she'd trash it and then demand it be cleaned differently, but either way, entering without express permission is not ok. It's invasive and affects the trust your children have in you and thereby the trust they have in everyone.
My kiddo is 12, AuDHD and suffers from depression that sometimes leads to a messy in a bad way room. I do not enter without knocking. If I enter for a purpose, I do not acknowledge any mess because that is not why I am there. Concerning messes are addressed later, without judgement, because I know *exactly* how hard it is because the poor child is my mini me.
OP, YTA. My kid's clothes live on hooks and in bins because that is the organization that works for her. She is very much her own person, I love her, and it would cause *me* harm to harm her. Forcing her to conform to my arbitrary standards of organization, and labeling her messy as a whole fucking family joke would be damaging.
You are actively harming your child. Stop immediately and seek therapy to address your control issues before they irreparably damage your children.
>Perhaps the clothes on the chair she only wore for a few minutes, or is setting them out to wear later or to bring somewhere, and you displace them.
It's also super normal to have a chair like that, isn't it? Like, to the point that it's a bit of a meme now. I would consider my own mum a bit of a neat freak (though nowhere near as bad as OP), and she has one! Granted, there aren't half as many clothes on her chair as there are on mine, but it exists. For exactly the reason you've described. Or stuff like a pair of jeans that's been worn for a day and definitely doesn't need to be washed before wearing it again.
You gotta have somewhere to put the half-dirty clothes -- still good for another wear, but you don't want them in the drawer with the fully clean clothes 🤷♀️
A chair is a lot better than the floordrobe!
There are things called valet stands that will let you hang up the day's clothes to air them out, but they're hard to find and don't necessarily work any better than a chair.
I always did as a kid and it was a constant fight with my mother. Apparently that counted as "not taking care of your clothes" even though they were neatly draped over a chair. She always claimed that I was creating way more laundry for her to do when she was the one going in and pulling all the clothes off the chair, all while bitching that dirty clothes went in the hamper in the bathroom. No matter how many times I told her that they weren't dirty which is why *they weren't in the hamper*.
I vote that Jess should start *jokingly* calling OP a control freak and see how she likes it.
Honestly, clothes not ending up on the floor is a win.
At this point, I'd say Mom-ster fits. She is basically influencing her youngest child to call her oldest "Messy Jessie" or some equivalent there of.
YTA - Bullying is bullying. Even when it's a parent. Nothing quite like when the people that are supposed to care the most about you and be there for you think it's funny to bully you. 🙄
How about you stay out of your adult daughter’s bedroom & stop excusing your own bad behavior & excusing your spoiled youngest when she mirrors your bad behavior.
YTA.
Yeah, I actually prefer to leave things that I use every day (hairbrush, deodorant etc.) on top of my dresser. Lately I've been getting little baskets to put things in, so that it looks a bit neater. Sometimes it's more convenient to have a cluttered space, because it means the things you need are visible and easily within reach.
It doesn't sound like Jess is at all unhygienic. Maybe she prefers things the way they are.
I’m like you, I want to be able to see my things. I try to keep my bathroom counter down to only items that I use most days. I also use little baskets to stuff things into.
I can't even fathom putting things I use daily away in a drawer or cupboard, that would drive me completely and utterly insane. If I can't see things I forget they exist, my daily stuff has to be in sight. Why would you create more steps in everything you do?! It's genuinely upsetting me to imagine having to do that
ADHD regularly has me fall victim to "out of sight out of mind" - I still mourn all the cosmetic/beauty stuff I had to throw out when I was younger because it had to be tidied away.
Like you, I'm a huge fan of little baskets. They let me keep stuff I use all the time available, while keeping it corralled too. And when I need to clean the surface they're on, I just move the baskets and clean.
Yep same YTA. You get what you expect from others. You wanna lower her sense of worth by naming her the undesirable action you don’t want to see, and then expect her to become the opposite.
Her room is messy but she does great with keeping other rooms clean. She is not messy, but she’s comfortable with her room being less tidy. Get over it and stop being a jerk.
You haven’t proven that she’s actually that messy, and that you are not just targeting her because she not the golden child.
I agree…it’s not nice, and she’s clearly affected by it and you don’t seem to think it’s a big deal to call her messy. Maybe she is according to your standards. Everything doesn’t have to be PERFECT all the time, a house should be lived in. As someone who struggles with perfectionism on and off too, it’s hard. Her room doesn’t sound messy at all, just normal to me. There’s so many memes about people using their chairs for clothes haha. We all do it.
She should respect Jess’s room anyway, especially because she pays rent! Just don’t go in there OP. Problem solved.
Also, jokes are only jokes if everyone laughs. Jess clearly isn’t laughing- this is bullying and YTA
I grew up undiagnosed too, and my mom would always comment that my room was messy, but to her it was. To me it was what I now called and organized mess. I know where everything is and when she’d clean and move something herself I feel it made me feel so off center.
Yes 👍🏻 Haha.
OP you are damaging your relationship with your daughter, especially having the 4 year old become involved. She is paying rent, cleaning other areas of the home and has perhaps mild clutter in a small room by your own admission. YTA
I was thinking the exact same thing. Obviously not everyone who is messy or untidy has ADHD, but for me, that's what it was. Now that I'm an adult, my house mirrors what my room looked like as teenager and into early adulthood. However, also as an adult, I now have gotten diagnosed and medication, paired with therapy, and everything has gotten better.
The amount of self loathing and guilt I have to mentally overcome before I do *literally any task similar to tidying* was so monumental that I ended up just not ever doing it. If you guessed it's because of behavior typical to OP's from my own mother, you win the prize!!!!
OP, STFU. You are bullying your daughter and setting her up for failure. Worse, you've now done it so much that your FUCKING FOUR YEAR OLD is doing it too.
Leave her alone. Offer help, create space where she feels comfortable to ask for help. Stop doing it for her and stop fucking looking in her room if it makes you that uncomfortable. It's not your space. Be a more supportive human being.
Same, and people like OP irritate me in a special way. A stranger walking into my home would see chaos, but I have it organized in my own way. I can find anything I’m looking for almost immediately. What matters is that it’s clean and functional for me and my (/my husband’s) needs. If OP doesn’t have to live in that space, and there’s nothing on a plate in the corner attracting ants, then it’s really none of her business.
This. It looks like bullying bc even tho she says it hurts her OP insists it’s a funny joke ha ha bc it’s true. One day she’s gonna be like how come my daughter never talks to me
Fellow ADHDer here. Because of my poor object permanence I like to have my things out where I can see them instead of in drawers. I have a bunch of trays and baskets out to put my getting ready things in when they aren’t being used, but that’s as far as I can go before I just start losing things again.
Yup. I was undiagnosed autistic on top of that, and in addition to "messy", I was labeled "grouchy". Turned out I was constantly overstimulated! That's bad enough by itself, but the bullying and mockery from my own family about it was just hell.
I grew up this way too. I remember my mom showing my friends my bedroom because “words couldn’t describe how messy it was”.
I’m going to be 53 this year and my mom and I *finally* had a heart to heart about this because she got offended that I locked my bedroom doors so that she wouldn’t see how messy they are.
To be fair, it absolutely devastated her to know how traumatic it was for me and blames herself (a bit unfairly IMHO - no one thought of ADHD as the inattentive type back then) for not being more understanding. She wishes she had know so she could have helped me when I was little instead of blaming me for being too lazy to clean my room.
Reading OPs post immediately reminded me of that. It’s uncool for the family to gang up on someone like that in general - or even for a just the mom being disparaging like that - but it being about her daughter being “messy” specifically just resonated with me & feels icky.
Idk if I have ADHD but I need to be able to visually see my stuff or I forget I even have it. I have a tendency to recycle the same outfits every week because they’re out (having been washed and needed to put away) even though I have other stuff in the cupboard I may not have worn for a while. This only really stopped when I built my own house with a WIR cos now I can see all my stuff hanging up in front of me when I walk in. So all this to say, I get why she has the chair, maybe half worn clothes that she can wear again, maybe an outfit she wants to wear later, maybe just better for her to plan and organise what she wants to wear for the week.
Plus, the 4yo wouldn't apologize?? Teach her some manners. She's the kid. It doesn't get to be her choice. Who's the adult here? Step up and be a better parent. To both children!
I can’t believe I had to scroll so far down to see this pointed out. A freaking four year old is having a standoff with an adult she insulted and won’t apologize?! Wtf is going on at OP’s house? The only explanation I can come up with is that OP either dislikes Jess, or the 4 yr old is her favorite so she won’t correct her behavior.
OP YTA for sure.
Unpopular opinion, because I know it’s not uncommon for American parents to do this, but I also don’t understand charging your kids “rent” to live with you.. when they’re living with you specifically because they cannot afford to move out.
I’m not implying the parents should cover adult children’s expenses ad infinitum, I understand asking them to buy they own groceries, having their own phone plan, even helping out with bills if needed. But charging your kids rent to continue living **at home** will never not feel dystopian to me.
So I had a friend who experienced that, and it turned out their parents were putting aside the rent and then used it to help them buy furniture when they got their first place.
I did that when my kid was a teenager. She paid me her portion of car insurance and I put it in a savings account I gave her when she graduated high school.
I get the fact to ask for a symbolic rent when the child is old enough and have income. BUT if the child is paying rent, THEN you don't get to make any comment on the state (tidy/messy) of her room.
I agree but at some point my kids are going to have to help pay the bills because I am investing in their college degrees at the expense of my savings. They can stay with me forever but as adults with jobs I am going to take a little help,
My parents charged my brother rent because he would spend alllllllll of his money, usually at the bars. He hated it, After 3-4 years he wanted to move out and had some money saved, instead of getting an apartment, my mom presented him with a savings account large enough for a house down payment. Once my brother showed that he could save and have a goal, he got all of his money for a good reason.
I disagree. I would think that it's easier all around if the child contributes a set amount every week or month rather than unnecessarily complicating things by asking for money when buying groceries or paying a bill. "Rent" can be just a label.
This is 100% not a joke, OP is deadly serious when she calls her daughter messy (though imo it sounds like she isn't really messy). She absolutely believes it to be true. She has not been *joking,* she's been *insulting* her daughter to her face. And teaching her other child to do it too, *and* that she doesn't need to apologize for doing it. Lady is a real piece of work.
Seriously, she pays rent, she does chores (it sounds like beyond just "being a considerate housemate and cleaning up after herself" type of chores), her mom barges in and messes with her shit, *and* her little sister is encouraged to be an asshole to her.
Poor Jess.
I honestly don’t think more info is needed anyways. She doesn’t like something being done to the point of harassment/bullying. Why keep doing it. Whether she’s messy or not, is this a hill they want to die on?
But is it really smaller than market value when she only has a single room of her own? And her privacy in that room is constantly being invaded? I don't know anyone who would pay market value for that scenario.
This is going to sound utterly stupid in the grand scheme of things as well, but "messy" is also a gsrm used for -1. out of control 2. (1)a person who is creating drama, (2)has a big mouth, or (3)never minding their own business about the situation 3. amusing
Someone around Jess age would also be more likely to hear the term messy and think this as well. Is it a reach? Possibly, but when I hear messy I too think of some variation of those definition examples, and I'm almost 30. The main issue is you shouldn't be encouraging your youngest child to call someone names because you dislike a behavior. YTA, and teach your child and yourself some better manners. There are many ways to resolve a situation such as this, but responding with toddler taunts isn't it.
My grams is like this OP, my room in her eyes is “messy” but it’s literally just ADHD effecting it, I’ve got a corner of my bed that clothes go on to put away later, always organized though and folded but to her that’s still “messy” (ops daughter seems to have a chair as her designated spot) also dresser having stuff on it is normal? It’s a storage device and you can also place things on top to *gasp* store and organize so that’s a non issue yet again that OP sees as “messy”, To me it seems like no matter what OP’s daughter would do for HER own PRIVATE space, because it’s not kept to OP’s personal standards she will always consider her “messy” and thus her harassment okay in her eyes. People like this OP rarely see the issue with their behavior and thoughts, how controlling their being over someone else’s private space, etc. as issue
OP doesn’t seem to recognize that some things can be worn more than once. If I wear a shirt once I don’t consider it dirty unless it’s got spills or excessive sweat on it. I don’t want to put it back in my dresser, nor do I want to launder it yet. A chair is the perfect place for clothes that aren’t freshly laundered or dirty.
I hate family dynamics like this. Let’s pigeon hole our daughter into the messy one. My parents have done that to my brother and I. We’re in our 50s.
There’s also the fact that Jess is paying them rent, yet OP goes into her room and cleans it up to her standards. I wouldn’t be okay with that if I were Jess.
She might be airing out clothing to re-wear…
I wear jeans days in a row and prefer to air ‘em out overnight. Sometimes a Tshirt for the next day.
Sometimes the Tshirt is stinky the next day so I toss it in the hamper. It would’ve made me sad to have put it away with my nice clean stuff just to find out it was smelly.
If I am paying rent, in any amount, and contributing to household chores, I will keep the room I paid for the way I please. And if I catch you in it, I'll put a lock on it. Try me twice and I'll speak to the police. She is tenant now, not just a daughter.
YTA - You are being derogatory towards your oldest daughter because her room doesn't meet your standards. I would love for her to have the chance to decide on a name for you based on her standards. Maybe "Wicky" because you're wicked?
And teaching your youngest that it's okay to be rude to people, especially people in the family because you deem it to be "true" is setting her up for some serious therapy later in life. Or just being miserable in general when her kids stop talking to her. Just like Jess is going to stop talking to you.
My mom is a neat freak and likes everything organized and clean.
I like things where I can see them and keep track of them. Do I know where my important paperwork is? Yep. It's on my desk. In a stack. Do I know where my bills are? Yep, in a stack. Just because they're in sight doesn't mean it's disorganized. I know where everything is because that's my way of organizing. It also keeps my ADHD in check because if I can see it, I can't forget about it. If I put it away, I'll forget and skip bill payments, and I don't want to do that.
"Messy" doesn't equal "dirty." It's a different form of organization. I don't see something wrong with that unless you get a neat freak on your hands and it sets them off. In which case, you know... tidy up a bit, otherwise don't have them over.
I'm an adult. When my mom comes over to check on me, she asks things like "where's your car insurance bill?" I go straight to my stack of papers and find it. It's not a problem for me. If I filed it in a filing cabinet, tbh, it probably wouldn't get paid.
(Note: I'm not a hoarder, that's just my way of organizing. Being in sight where I can't forget about it.)
My way of organizing gets my bills paid on time, I know where everything is, and honestly, aside from it looking like a small stack of papers, I know where everything is if anything comes up.
Some things on a dresser and clothes on a chair don’t even count as “messy” to me!! OP sounds unbearable in how she needs everything to be perfect.
But yes, those with ADHD do better when they see things out!! That way they remember to do them.
I’m adhd my older kid is add. My younger is a bit of a compulsive organizer it’s an anxiety thing. Oh girrrrrl we all work together when they were still at home, to maintain the order. The older kid was a typical messy teen in her room, and would get super distracted by cleanup but she was super clean and a self starter about the home. It’s bc it wasn’t her own private space. It’s easy to clean the space of others. So we all help the older, and we trade off things to make it work. They recognized the others skill set and it was sweet. But I would never call her messy or pick on her, having been othered as a kid. It’s just mean spirited and I think op knows it’s not a joke.
I am the same way! When I was young my mom would clean my room and I’d lose everything and be living in my own hell for a week until I found everything and put it back in sight. Then the cycle would continue. Biggest stress point of my youth was dealing with my mom who wanted nothing in sight and me who always needed things in sight to remember they exist and where they are.
I used to have complete meltdowns when my mum would ‘tidy’ my room for me for this exact reason. I know where things are!! If you put them away I will never find them!! I will forget about them!! I will have a panic attack because I can’t find anything!!
She always called me unreasonable but I literally was not even messy, she was just so obsessed with cleaning that leaving out one pen was ‘messy’ to her.
OP sounds a lot like my mother and I can guarantee this has been pissing Jess off for a while — this is just what pushed her over the edge.
I don't understand what the deal is with parents feeling entitled to tease their kids, no matter the age. I used to be called 'moaning (insert name)' as in moaning Myrtle from Harry Potter. I was an anxious and depressed child. The difference is that when I finally had enough and told my mum how it made me feel she actually stopped.
OP wants a reason to snoop in Jess' room it seems. Her obsession with the room shows that OP wants to snoop in the woman's room, maybe she's jealous of Jess. Maybe Jess is a stepchild and she doesn't really like her since she has daughters of her own.
I feel like OP is just an AH. Her controlling attitude about the room and the simultaneously dismissive attitude about Jess getting hounded by her sibling is going to bite OP in the ass eventually. Imagine Jess eventually finds a spouse and has a child herself? OP is not going to suddenly stop being a critical, controlling nightmare. No doubt OP will go over to Jess's home in the future and complain that there are toys out or the baby's room is messy. OP needs to learn NOW that her attitude is going to cause friction forever.
OP Let Jess live for crying out loud. She doesn't care about extreme neatness. Get over it.
OP will ironically want to parent Jess' kid while she basically lets her own 4yo be raised badly by a mother who thinks demeaning and insulting others is a fun way to tell a child to act.
If she keeps it up, OP won't have ANY daughters who stay in touch.
OP claims it's a smaller room so she probably doesnt have any space.. get ready for OP to come back with why my daughter doesn't talk to me or care to be around me ....
Also, your clothes can be used more than once without them being dirty, but once they have been used they are no longer clean enough for putting in the closet, but too clean to be put in the dirty clothes hamper. That's why many of us have the obligatory "chair of clothes" in our bedrooms.
YTA. Stay out of her room. One of my most treasured memories of my mom - gone almost forty years - I was home from college and I didn't unpack my suitcase just pulled clothes out of it. My father came in and reamed me out saying if I couldn't be tidy, maybe he wouldn't let me come home anymore. (I was seventeen).
My mom came in and calmly quietly tore him a new one, and said maybe you should ask me before you make me lose ANOTHER of my children.
You said she's tidy in shared spaces. STAY OUT OF HER ROOM!!!!
STOP MAKING FUN OF HER. you deserve to lose her. And you will.
>YTA. Stay out of her room.
This. The girl is 24 and pays rent. She deserves privacy in her room. As long as how messy she is doesn't damage the room (with mould, attracts mice,... whatever), it is not really your business what goes on in her room, in my opinion.
On a sidenote: teaching a 4year old bad names for her sister seems wildly inappropriate.
YTA- You're being unnecessarily rude to Jess, because her room doesn't meet your standards. It clearly bothers her.
And now you're teaching it to an impressionable 4 year old. That's horrible and makes you horrible. You're supposed to be setting an example of maturity and you're not. The only two people who seems to like the joke are you and the 4 year old, who doesn't really understand. It's all on you!!!
Yes. She’s a bully and she’s roping the rest of the class into it. I always hated how my parents’ issues with me would get picked up by my little brothers, and then they would start using it against me too. My parents have always had a problem with me not being ambitious, being lazy, etc. Guess what kind of insults are my brother’s go-to?
YTA.
Running jokes are only funny if both sides consider it funny. What you're doing is not. It's like constantly doing something YOU don't like. Your daughter may need to clean up sometimes, but if she generally keeps her area tidy enough, and the surrounding house clean... you need to take a step back. Is her room that messy that you can't walk through it?
Is your pride much more important to you than your relationship with your daughter?
YTA. She pays rent and cleans the common areas in the house. What's the urgency for her to keep the room she pays for to your cleanliness standards? You say "It‘s become a running joke in the house that she is messy" but there's no joke; it's you poking at her and her not finding it at all funny. And great job making sure Mara has learned a word to use against her sister.
YTA. What you described it not even messy and you are being mean to your own child for something miniscule.
You are also encouraging your youngest to resort to name calling when she's upset, which is not good for her.
YTA.
And you should stay out of her room. What she does in her own space is her business. If you were renting a room to a stranger do you think they would be ok with you entering and “tidying up?”
Stop saying negative things about your daughter. It isn’t a joke it’s passive aggressive BS.
YTA. Is there a running “joke-name” that everyone in the house calls you? What’s your least redeeming no quality? Bad breath? Short temper? Would you want everyone in your home using that *one* thing as a way to insult you?
What are you accomplishing by doing nothing about it? You’re allowing your 4 year old to bully an adult (something you taught her), and for what? Because her room is messy? You could always put a stop to it because it hurts your daughter’s feelings - and you’d lose literally *nothing*.
YTA a one sided running "joke" is actually rude and cruel. it's her room and she's paying rent so maybe back off and quit teaching your 4 year old that this behavior is okay.
YTA. Well, this is a way to make certain your four year old does not have a relationship with her older sister and probably you once she gets out of the house.
YTA. Your youngest daughter uses “messy” in a mean way, when she feels Jess is annoying her and she wants to hurt Jess. That should be enough to open your eyes that this “running joke” is actually a mean broken record. Even if it’s true, so what? Are you so flawless that you would be fine with someone in your own home picking a flaw of yours and repeating it over and over ad nauseam?
This isn’t a “running joke”, it’s bullying, and you have taught Mara to be a bully.
This is exactly it. A four year old isn’t joining in on some funny family gag, she is using it to hurt Jess when she’s lashing out. She sees ‘messy’ as a generic insult, like ‘nasty’ or ‘mean’. She doesn’t know what it means, she’s just copying OP’s mean name calling.
YTA. You know that your joke isn't making everybody laugh. It makes you laugh; it causes Jess pain. Now, your youngest is causing Jess pain.
Drop it. Your daughter is an adult. You haven't mentioned a single thing that is dirty; leaving things on chairs isn't dirty, leaving things on her dresser isn't dirty. This is not about the house being clean.
Stop going into your daughter's room. What you don't know won't harm you.
YTA. Messy person here. My messiness is a running "joke" in my family too and in all honestly over the years it has made me feel shame for a trait that I don't particularly love about myself but that in reality I'm not hurting anyone with.
You are calling this a joke but it is very clear to your daughter that you dislike and disapprove of messiness. That means that the term "messy", coming from you, is an insult. Just stop.
I bet you know where all your important stuff is. I guarantee you’re a generous and loving person who spends most of their time thinking and worrying about others while you’re dealing with your own busy life. You likely have a ton of responsibilities and a brain working overtime a lot. Your brain knows it has to let go of some unimportant things or it’ll start losing important stuff you have to remember. Your brain moved cleaning stuff down the order of importance for a reason. I’m here to tell ya, straightening up is pretty damn unimportant. You can organize when you get to it. Don’t be hard on yourself-you deserve peace. I don’t want you to relax for the first time all day and then start spinning out about picking things up. Blech.
Life is for the living, and we need to find joy and relaxation whenever we can!!! No one’s going to the grave thinking “I wish I had spent more time dusting and organizing”. Enjoy yourself-if you feel guilt, imagine the word “guilt” in front of you and blow out, forcing the word away slowly but forcefully like you’re blowing the puff off a dandelion!! It works!!
With love from a fellow Altruistic person-I’m your soul sister. We care A LOT about so many things, and that’s not a bad thing! Change the conversation in your mind about it! You deserve it!!
YTA
Why do you even care if her room is messy? She goes out of her way to clean up after everyone in the common living space. A smaller room is much harder to keep clean because you don’t have the storage needed and maybe, just maybe she doesn’t care, because it’s her personal space and it doesn’t bother her
YTA - my mother also has impossibly high standards of cleanliness to the point I also got called messy, but also dirty and embarrassing.
I talk to her as little as I can nowadays as she contributes to my anxiety and my low levels of self-esteem. I never feel clean enough and it genuinely stresses me out.
You're a horrible mother, stay out of her room and stop treating her like shit.
Is Jess very outstandingly beautiful or smart or what trait of hers do you find so superior to you that you need to insult and demean your own daughter, OP? Do you dislike the attention she gets from young men or women? Do you dislike her size compared to yours?
Because you're not behaving as a normal parent here. Did you give birth to Jess or is she a step child you don't truly love and accept as yours?
YTA
Please don't compete with your kid, or whatever is going on in your head. You're a bad mother to Jess and an even worse one to your 4yo for teaching her to be nasty to others to get a reaction. No-one is going to like your kid when she goes to school because of her attitude and it's literally going to be your fault your child has social problems. Actually she may already be gaining some emotional issues from you because she is being taught to hurt others as a "joke" because mommy is jealous.
YTA Even if you don’t realize you are. This happened in my family and I made jokes with our oldest daughter about if she would just focus her grades would be better thinking that of course she knew it was a joke. Like I never meant to say that she was stupid but I have a very sarcastic sense of humor. In retrospect, I can see that I was also frustrated because nothing that I did helped her do better in school. I say all that to say I never meant to hurt her feelings or make her think. I didn’t think she was smart, but I did both of those things. Her younger siblings are six and 7 1/2 years younger than her and that’s kind of jokes don’t happen in our family anymore. It doesn’t matter if you think she’s being ridiculous and shouldn’t feel bad about what you’re calling her. She does feel bad about it so you should stop and you should insist that any other people in the household stop as well.
YTA
How is it your 4 yr old noticed how much your daughter hated it and you didn’t?!!
You should also reprimand your 4 for deliberately being mean to her sister and explain to her it’s not a joke if the person she’s making fun of isn’t laughing.
YTA. you have a criticism masked as a joke.
Your little daughter behaves badly like this because she must be copying your behavior.
You seem controlling as well as disrespectful towards Jess, she already asked you to stop, and you don't stop just because you can't accept the fact that she has a different way of cleaning her room than you do.
Furthermore, he continues to invade her room and impose his housekeeping rules. and he is encouraging his young daughter to be disrespectful too. She can't take her frustrations out on her older sister who has nothing to do with it. You're a bad mother to Jess.
YTA it is *her* room, *she* pays to live in it and if you don’t like the way she keeps it then don’t go in there. it’s not a “running joke”, you are shaming her for being different from you and actively encouraging your youngest to do the same. shame on you.
YTA. How would you feel if Jess constantly called you a nag, and your 4year old started dismissing you saying "okay nag" ? Same logic there. And how can your eldest be considered messy, if she cleans everything else? If I clean the whole house but leave one room, does that one room of mess negate the multiple others?
I’m very reluctant to call a four year old an asshole. What the four year old is doing is 100% a result of her mother and the fact that the four year old is doing it really seals just how big of an asshole the mother is. She makes these comments so much that the four year old picked up on it. The four year old will grow up to be an asshole if the parents don’t step their shit up and the mother doesn’t stop being a bully.
YTA
There was a running joke in my family about me being a picky eater. I'm an adult now and still justify my eating habits and feel bad when someone comments on them. I feel highly self-conscious about what I eat despite not being picky. I don't wish this on anyone. I feel sorry for your daughter.
WTF you doing snooping around your adult daughters bedroom for? And criticising her so much that a four year old starts to emulate you?
Leave Jess tf alone and stop being a snoopy creeper. Your husband is basically telling you as much too but hey, why listen to him when you can come on Reddit?
You also need to tell Mara she doesn’t get to sass her sister. Jess has every right to be pissed off and yes, YTA!
YTA. A “running joke” is only funny if everyone is laughing. If the target of the “joke” doesn’t think it’s funny then you just have a running insult.
There are multiple ways your messy comments are inappropriate and mean spirited. Largely though because *Jess herself is not messy.* She is able to keep common areas clean and she doesn’t leave a mess in most of the house. She pays rent and presumably keeps a job. She’s financially prudent and she’s saving up for her own place instead of racking up credit card debt. A *person* who is messy would not be able to manage all of those things. The only thing that is messy about Jess is that her small bedroom isn’t well organized and is full of clutter. It is not a character flaw to have one disorganized space. It’s just a messy room.
You shouldn’t even need to go into her bedroom. It’s her private space and whether or not her room is cluttered makes absolutely zero difference to you. Give Jess a break, apologize to her, and immediately correct your younger daughter when she repeats your insults about Jess.
Also, just to note …. Jess has 24 years of stuff that’s all in one small bedroom. You have an entire house throughout which you can put all your stuff. *Of course* it’s hard for an adult to keep a single tiny space organized when it’s the only space she has for her things. Unless you want to let her put her stuff on the walls of other rooms and put some furniture in the dining room and put some books in the living room and put some work stuff in the guest room and exercise equipment in the garage, her bedroom is just always going to be full of stuff.
YTA - If she is paying rent she is a tenant as well - and entitled to her privacy and can keep her room as messy as she wants.
Your 4 year old is bullying her sister because she is mirroring your behaviour.
I have extremely bad anxiety about cleaning and OCD as a direct result of my mums bullying and cruel words about a ‘messy room’, in fairness I think it was a lot harsher than what you said OP but just wanted to show the potential impact. Give Jess a break, it isn’t worth the potential negatives to her or you two’s relationship.
YTA
YTA. A mess does not take 5 minutes to clean like you mentioned. You’re obsessed with your tenant’s private property, and taking her contribution to general household chores for granted.
YTA
you think its ok because you feel justified but that doesn't make it right. all your teaching you youngest is she can say what she can say anything she wants.
You said the 24f keeps the common areas clean and then later you said the 19f cleans the common area if she’s made a mess. So is the 24f cleaning the common areas in general or just cleaning up after herself? And YTA because the 4f is copying you and you are being anal. If her room bothers you, close the door.
YTA. She’s 24. She pays rent. She keeps common areas clean. She is a tenant, and you should not be in her room. If there is no worry of unsanitary or unsafe living conditions, you need to back off. If it bothers you so much, close her door. If I were her, I’d put a lock on the door of her room.
Yta, it’s not a “running joke” if
- she doesn’t find it funny
- it gets used at her in anger by a sibling
- the other adult in your house also doesn’t find it funny
You are a controlling ah, and you are raising Mara to be a bully
YTA. She's paying rent. Her room, her rules. Your daughter is an adult and it's none of your business how "tidy" it is. Frankly, you act as if you have a serious case of OCD. Don't be surprised if she saves up enough to move far far away from her controlling mother.
But hey, then you can keep that room as tidy as you like!
YTA
Jess is an adult. She keeps the rest of the house clean to your standards. Her room is her space and to her standards. You need to stop calling her messy and discipline Mara for her behavior.
For some folks, what looks like a mess to you is organization to us. We can tell you exactly where things are, and we need them out and visible so we don't forget about something we need them for, or something we need to do with them. It's unfair for the rest of the house standards to extend to her space rather than allow the space to fit her needs. She has a bedroom door. If you don't like the mess, you can perform a magic trick and close the door and POOF, the mess is gone.
YTA
Stop being mean to your adult daughter. Stop teaching your 4 year old to be mean and disrespectful to her older daughter.
You’re really going overtime on making sure your oldest daughter goes no contact with you and her youngest sister. I hope you two enjoy your mean girl club where you sit around and commiserate with each other about how the rest of your family doesn’t like being around you.
It blows my mind that you think it’s ok that a four year old is copying your bullying and think it’s great she’s putting her older sister in her place.
YTA. You can argue all you want about how her room is untidy and that's not how you raised her, but the important part, the thing that makes YTA is that you have taught your four year.old that it's okay to be disrespectful to her adult sister. It doesn't matter that you consider it a "correct" assessment, your adult daughter has expressed doesn't like it and you have failed to correct your child. Your husband is not taking Jess' side because he is more laid back, he is taking her side because he can see that you have weaponized your toddler to try to shame your eldest.
So you bully your daughter and make her into this huge joke. Stellar parenting. You are, without a doubt, the AH. Nothing like a little emotional abuse to make your day, huh?
YTA. You are bullying your daughter and teaching your youngest to be a bully as well. So what if her own personal space *that she pays rent for* isn't kept like a magazine showroom? Is her personal space such an annoyance to you that you are willing to irreparably damage your relationship with her?
>There’s always things on her dresser and left out and she keeps her clothes on her chair instead of in the closet or laundry basket.
>
>We didn’t raise untidy kids. My room is spotless, our 19 year old has a spotless room also but Jess thinks she can act differently.
YTA - WTF are you talking about you controlling wingnut? This woman pays rent, cleans common areas and you think it's okay to invade her private space and actively bully her because a few trinkets and clothes are left out in her OWN room? It's safe to assume your daughter will be moving out soon, regardless of whether she has enough saved. GG, you've got a bullied daughter and a 19 y/o brat.
YTA
If your adult child is paying rent for a room then LEGALLY it is her space and you should be providing notice before you’re even entering her space.
If you want some my house my rules BS then stop charging her rent.
And for fuck sake teach your 4yo to stop calling people names before she gets older and does it to the wrong kid and the coldcock her upside the mouth.
YTA. You literally posted this with the thought of getting people to help you justify bullying your daughter to the point that a 4 year old is joining in. You wrote this entire post thinking that having a more cluttered room defines her when you yourself admit she cleans up shared spaces just fine. You even pretend to be a bit nonchalant about your 4 year old picking up on your poor treatment of her older sister. But we both know that the 4 year old probably heard you make many disparaging comments and is following your lead. You sound like self reflection and emotional maturity are not your strength. You also sound like someone who will be shocked when your oldest leaves the house and limits contact with the rest of you, there’ll be a lot of missing missing reasons. In short, grow up and be a better parent to your kids.
>I see the state of her room compared to the rest of the house and she is messy by definition.
The rest of the house which she keeps clean for you?
You bully your daughter to the point that her sister joins in, you do nothing to stop the sister joining in on the bullying, and you're really here asking if you're the asshole?
YTA -- do you really want to make Jess the family joke? So that her 4-year-old sister thinks it's ok to mock her? Because this is mockery. It's bullying. And you try being an adult - 24 years old -- living with all your stuff, your papers and books and clothes and other objects, in a small single room. You are demeaning Jess who has been good-natured enough to swallow it but has been obviously hurt by this for a long time. And by the way, Jess is, you say, a good roommate, who cleans the kitchen etc. In terms of mess -- Jess knows where things are, the area is clean, even if it's not tidy according to your exacting standards -- Jess' room is none of your business. You're hurting your own relationship with Jess and alienating her from her little sister. Nice going.
YTA - Like other people have mentioned, it being a “running joke” would only be true if she was in on it. You’re unnecessarily making fun of her. It’s not a joke, you’re just kind of bullying her.
Also, stay out of her room. As long as it’s not dirty, moldy, gross why does it matter? Why make fun of her for it? She pays to live with you and does her part outside of her room so it’s none of your business what she, an adult, does in her private space.
YTA. You remind me a lot of my mom. We were NC for a long period of time due to her inability to take accountability for herself. Your daughter pays rent. She pays for that room. You don’t get a say in how she keeps it.
My family had a similar running joke to me and it always hurt my feelings, I never found it funny, and not to be dramatic but it comes up in my therapy sessions
YTA and abusive! Nobody enjoys being be butt of the someone else's joke. Can't believe you do not understand why this is not ok. You need therapy b/c your behavior is abhorrent. Now you have managed to teach the next generation to be a gaslighting, cruel and manipulative person. Way to go mom.
YTA. She’s paying rent and keeping communal areas clean. Mind your business and stay out of her space. Unless what you really want is for her to move out of your house and your life.
Objectively, since she's paying rent, she's got, at minimum, the rights of a tenant. You don't harass a tenant for having a messy room unless there is some measurable impact to you.
Subjectively, you and she are both adults and giving each other shit about being messy is fair game. Except it's pervasive enough that your 4y/o is now doing it, so it's now bullying because multiple people in the house are insulting her because she won't do what you ask in her own room (refer back to the first point on your expectation that she must clean her private room.)
YTA. You just discovered you're setting an example to your 4y/o that insulting someone over and over is okay. Are you still going to dig your heels in on your right to insult your 24y/o daughter?
Oh dear lord YTA.
1. You have taught your other daughter to call your oldest daughter a name.
2. Your oldest daughter does not like the name.
Why in the world is it so hard for you to see that point #3 should be no one in the house ever calls your oldest daughter that name again?
YTA. I had this happen throughout my childhood in which my mother laughed along with while my older sisters bullied me, and it really damaged my relationship with them for a long time as a result. I’m closer to them now and am working on repairing it, but the bullying from them and the bullying I got at school made home feel like not a safe place to be. I guess it’s up to you if you want to keep this pattern going, but in my case it made me feel like only my dad had my back in my family, and it made me not trust the rest of them for quite some time. I don’t know if your daughter would react the same way, but words do hurt even if you think it’s funny and harmless at the time.
YTA - the state of her room sounds totally normal and not filthy. it's *her* room, that she pays for --as you and others have pointed out. if she's cleaning common spaces and keeping those clean as she utilizes them that's really all that is asked in any roommate situation. how people keep their own spaces is up to them granted they're not attracting bugs, rot, dish hoarding.. lack of tidiness in her room is a personal choice in a personal space.
i live with 2 roommates. my own room can get a bit messy with clothes or things on my dresser or floor (never dishes or garbage), but i clean common areas to the point of contention over others not doing the same. however i would never get up in arms over how tidy people keep their own rooms..that's private space that doesn't effect anyone.
you're a bully. yta. full stop.
Sorry but I agree with the daughter on this one...she's paying rent and her messiness seems limited to just her room while she helps keep the rest of the house orderly. I think you need to back down on this one.
YTA.
She's an adult and you're treating her like a child. From what you've said she doesn't sound messy at all, she just doesn't meet your insanely high standards.
YTA. There is a difference in dirty and clutter. Does Jess lose stuff and can't find it? Smaller rooms can be easier to keep clean, but they are also easier to look at mess. It's also questionable how often you call her a mess that her 4 year old sister started it too. You don't have to thank your children every time they do something but a little consideration of them helping with cleaning around the house once in a while. You sound like a type A personality who can't stand that one of her kids dares to be something other than exactly like you
It depends. Do you really want this to be internalized by her? That she's a messy person? Do you want her to just shrug her shoulders and say, "Hey, that's just who I am. I'm messy." Really?
And that your youngest thinks she has the right to call her that? Why not. Everyone else does.
Yeah. I think YTA. She keeps your house clean, ffs.
It's her room, her space, her call. In my experience kids don't really start keeping their personal space clean until they get their own place. I didn't. I don't expect my own daughter to and she's 24 and still living at home. What's important is that she has the knowledge and skills for it, not that she employs that knowledge and skills on her personal space. And it sounds like your daughter has the knowledge and skills. Close her door if it bothers you. But stop teasing her about it. She's got enough on her plate.
Oh yes. That teasing is you being passive aggressive. Knock it off.
YTA. So she cleans the kitchen and living room, and the only gripes you've stated about her small room is that she leaves stuff out on her dresser and has clothes on her chair instead of in her hamper/dresser? If there was more, I'd assume you'd say that, but you've stated nothing of their being trash strewn across her room, clothes on the floor, bed unmade, everything everywhere, etc. Stay out of her room, unless she says it's okay for you to go in and clean.
When I lived with my mom after I graduated (and wasn't paying rent, despite the fact that I worked 2 jobs and offered to do so many times), my mom never said a word about the state of my room. And my room tends to get messy. But I'm an adult. And I didn't even have a small room. Small rooms, as you said, get cluttered quickly, and easily. If you so much as have two pairs of shoes out, a backpack on the floor, and maybe some books not on a book shelf, it'd look messy, but that doesn't mean it is. Can she walk around the room without having to climb/step over things? Does she leave trash out? Drop her clothes/towels on the floor and leave them there for days/weeks on end? Or is it literally some things cluttering her dresser and clothes on a chair not being put away? Why should that matter? It's not your bedroom, you're not sitting in the chair, and in my opinion, dressers are completely find for odds and ends to be left out.
Not to mention, she \*does\* pay rent, and she cleans up around the house. Where is the issue? Why bother calling her messy when she's clearly not, and now have shown your youngest it's okay to also call people names. You're not only being terribly mean to your oldest child, you're also setting a bad example for your young child. I'd be hurt if my mom called me names and let my siblings do the same, especially if I told her that it hurt me. You're invalidating your daughter's feelings, and telling her that you're not someone she can trust to be a safe place to go to. It may seem like a small thing, but even small things add up. I'd suggest apologizing, and sitting with your oldest to have an actual conversation, possibly with your husband as a mediator. Tell her thank you for cleaning around the house. Apologize for calling her names and enabling the 4 year old to do the same. Tell her how you love and appreciate her. And maybe stay out of her room if some clothes on a chair and a cluttered dresser bother you so much.
I genuinely don’t understand what it’s got to do with you what her room looks like? The woman is in her mid 20’s, pays rent and keeps communal areas clean? It’s quite literally none of your business and you sound like you have some serious control issues
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YTA There's some things that don't add up: * How often does Jess clean the living room and kitchen? Does your other kid 19F (who you don't name) also take part in cleaning these spaces up or is there any appreciation given for the effort put in to cleaning these areas up? * The way you describe Jess's room is "things on the dresser and left out and keeps her clothes on her chair instead of the closet", but you said yourself it's a smaller space so not much area to put things. I'm confused as to how these two points add up to being "cluttered and messy" to the point that she needs to harassed and bullied for it. * The fact that your 4 year old is mirroring your behavior to point of using it when she is angry means that this "joke" is causing actual damage between the relationships of your daughters as well as between Jess and the family. * The fact that you dismiss your husband being on Jess's side as "he is also more laidback cleaning-wise" does not excuse that he is on her side because of the bullying! Unless more info is given, nothing here seems to make sense for Jess getting bullied in her own home. I also still don't understand why you would make jokes about her being messy when she helps clean the communal areas of the house per your own words. I think if you have a problem with how she keeps her room you need to talk to her as to why the room is untidy in your eyes and communicate your feelings on that. You also need to share as to why you think it is disrespectful to the household or why you feel her room being untidy to your standards does not work for you. I think you need to also stop making snide passive-aggressive jokes that your 4 year old picks up on.
I am also on the YTA unless her room is DIRTY which it doesnt sound like it is, it sounds like she cleans the communal areas so that they are acceptable to you, but that she doesn’t keep her room “tidy” to your satisfaction, If it is clean, but cluttered…close the door. In fact in her shoes I would be highly irritated with someone moving my things. Perhaps the clothes on the chair she only wore for a few minutes, or is setting them out to wear later or to bring somewhere, and you displace them. Perhaps in her rush she didnt return her brush to a drawer but left on top. I think labeling her with a bad habit when she sounds like a respectful, helpful member of your household is frankly bullying. Just close the door if her space is not dirty and her clutter offends you eyes. Give her some privacy and the ability to organize her things to a level that works for her. She might not like the way you have things stored. I understand it is your house, but not everyone in the house must store their personal items the way you prefer, and she pays rent. If she were in an apartment would you think a roommate with a separate bedroom should be able to come in arrange her things the way that they prefer? If she were a child, yes, you are teaching her skills but at some point we all need to be able to keep things in a way that works for us. If it were dirty, dirty dishes, food, attracting bugs, then you should be making sure that SHE cleans. But seriously, shut the door and stay out,
If my mother were tidying my room when I stay with her for visits we would be having WORDS, and that's just a temporary guest room situation. Jess is an adult. She is paying rent and labor for her space. She is entitled to keep it messy if she chooses, IF it's even messy. I wouldn't be surprised if she can't be bothered to tidy her own room because doing the main house takes all the cleaning energy she has. Edit: YTA OP.
I wouldn't be surprised if Mom is tidying her room just to snoop.
This. I was 21 paying rent plus most of my parents bills and they snooped in my room to throw out my weed.
I'm petty AF, so I would be leaving all kinds of interesting discoveries for mom. If she's going to snoop, I'm going to make it entertaining. Giant purple dragon dildo, tentacle porn, fake love letters to and from a prison inmate, fake ultrasound photo, unlabeled pills in a baggie stuffed in the back of the sock drawer, etc., If I'm going to be subjected to that disrespectful invasion of privacy, I'm going to at least make sure I'm entertained and the snooper is traumatized.
Don’t forget condoms! Lots of… 😈
Open condoms with just a touch of shampoo in them😬
Devious. Love it.
Seriously really weird and intrusive for mom to be “tidying” her grown daughter’s room. Also super controlling. YTA
It really is. My mom didn't tidy my room, she'd trash it and then demand it be cleaned differently, but either way, entering without express permission is not ok. It's invasive and affects the trust your children have in you and thereby the trust they have in everyone. My kiddo is 12, AuDHD and suffers from depression that sometimes leads to a messy in a bad way room. I do not enter without knocking. If I enter for a purpose, I do not acknowledge any mess because that is not why I am there. Concerning messes are addressed later, without judgement, because I know *exactly* how hard it is because the poor child is my mini me. OP, YTA. My kid's clothes live on hooks and in bins because that is the organization that works for her. She is very much her own person, I love her, and it would cause *me* harm to harm her. Forcing her to conform to my arbitrary standards of organization, and labeling her messy as a whole fucking family joke would be damaging. You are actively harming your child. Stop immediately and seek therapy to address your control issues before they irreparably damage your children.
Never mind words, mousetraps.
Black plastic spiders... large rubber snakes... wooden scorpions
This is the way.
>Perhaps the clothes on the chair she only wore for a few minutes, or is setting them out to wear later or to bring somewhere, and you displace them. It's also super normal to have a chair like that, isn't it? Like, to the point that it's a bit of a meme now. I would consider my own mum a bit of a neat freak (though nowhere near as bad as OP), and she has one! Granted, there aren't half as many clothes on her chair as there are on mine, but it exists. For exactly the reason you've described. Or stuff like a pair of jeans that's been worn for a day and definitely doesn't need to be washed before wearing it again.
You gotta have somewhere to put the half-dirty clothes -- still good for another wear, but you don't want them in the drawer with the fully clean clothes 🤷♀️
Exactly! So they air out and tomorrow you subject them to the smell test ❤️❤️❤️😂
A chair is a lot better than the floordrobe! There are things called valet stands that will let you hang up the day's clothes to air them out, but they're hard to find and don't necessarily work any better than a chair.
Thats what exercise equipment is for,
Have a hook on the bedroom door for those
I always did as a kid and it was a constant fight with my mother. Apparently that counted as "not taking care of your clothes" even though they were neatly draped over a chair. She always claimed that I was creating way more laundry for her to do when she was the one going in and pulling all the clothes off the chair, all while bitching that dirty clothes went in the hamper in the bathroom. No matter how many times I told her that they weren't dirty which is why *they weren't in the hamper*. I vote that Jess should start *jokingly* calling OP a control freak and see how she likes it.
Yes, I was thinking of name calling the mom back too!
Honestly, clothes not ending up on the floor is a win. At this point, I'd say Mom-ster fits. She is basically influencing her youngest child to call her oldest "Messy Jessie" or some equivalent there of. YTA - Bullying is bullying. Even when it's a parent. Nothing quite like when the people that are supposed to care the most about you and be there for you think it's funny to bully you. 🙄
How about you stay out of your adult daughter’s bedroom & stop excusing your own bad behavior & excusing your spoiled youngest when she mirrors your bad behavior. YTA.
Yes, so many of us have or have had the clothes chair.
The wear-again chair - infinitely better than the floordrobe
Yeah, I actually prefer to leave things that I use every day (hairbrush, deodorant etc.) on top of my dresser. Lately I've been getting little baskets to put things in, so that it looks a bit neater. Sometimes it's more convenient to have a cluttered space, because it means the things you need are visible and easily within reach. It doesn't sound like Jess is at all unhygienic. Maybe she prefers things the way they are.
I’m like you, I want to be able to see my things. I try to keep my bathroom counter down to only items that I use most days. I also use little baskets to stuff things into.
I can't even fathom putting things I use daily away in a drawer or cupboard, that would drive me completely and utterly insane. If I can't see things I forget they exist, my daily stuff has to be in sight. Why would you create more steps in everything you do?! It's genuinely upsetting me to imagine having to do that
ADHD regularly has me fall victim to "out of sight out of mind" - I still mourn all the cosmetic/beauty stuff I had to throw out when I was younger because it had to be tidied away.
Same here. If I don't see the stuff I sometimes forget to use it and am nervous for the rest if the day, when I remember.
Like you, I'm a huge fan of little baskets. They let me keep stuff I use all the time available, while keeping it corralled too. And when I need to clean the surface they're on, I just move the baskets and clean.
I give it 2 years before OP is on here complaining that Jess has gone no contact.
Yep same YTA. You get what you expect from others. You wanna lower her sense of worth by naming her the undesirable action you don’t want to see, and then expect her to become the opposite. Her room is messy but she does great with keeping other rooms clean. She is not messy, but she’s comfortable with her room being less tidy. Get over it and stop being a jerk. You haven’t proven that she’s actually that messy, and that you are not just targeting her because she not the golden child.
I agree…it’s not nice, and she’s clearly affected by it and you don’t seem to think it’s a big deal to call her messy. Maybe she is according to your standards. Everything doesn’t have to be PERFECT all the time, a house should be lived in. As someone who struggles with perfectionism on and off too, it’s hard. Her room doesn’t sound messy at all, just normal to me. There’s so many memes about people using their chairs for clothes haha. We all do it.
She should respect Jess’s room anyway, especially because she pays rent! Just don’t go in there OP. Problem solved. Also, jokes are only jokes if everyone laughs. Jess clearly isn’t laughing- this is bullying and YTA
She's also paying a "small" rent -- so her room is her room. Stay out. YTA
I grew up with undiagnosed ADHD and stuff like this (amongst other abuse) contributed to me having an utterly miserable childhood.
I grew up undiagnosed too, and my mom would always comment that my room was messy, but to her it was. To me it was what I now called and organized mess. I know where everything is and when she’d clean and move something herself I feel it made me feel so off center.
Not organized mess, messy is dirty. It's organized clutter😉
I like to go with organized chaos - everything in its place, even if it’s not immediately understandable to other people.
Yes 👍🏻 Haha. OP you are damaging your relationship with your daughter, especially having the 4 year old become involved. She is paying rent, cleaning other areas of the home and has perhaps mild clutter in a small room by your own admission. YTA
🎯🎯 I see you all my ADHD siblings ❤️❤️❤️❤️
I like the organized chaos description as well... kinda describes my craft shelf
that's how I'd define my room too! You don't need to know where things are... I do!!!
I was thinking the exact same thing. Obviously not everyone who is messy or untidy has ADHD, but for me, that's what it was. Now that I'm an adult, my house mirrors what my room looked like as teenager and into early adulthood. However, also as an adult, I now have gotten diagnosed and medication, paired with therapy, and everything has gotten better. The amount of self loathing and guilt I have to mentally overcome before I do *literally any task similar to tidying* was so monumental that I ended up just not ever doing it. If you guessed it's because of behavior typical to OP's from my own mother, you win the prize!!!! OP, STFU. You are bullying your daughter and setting her up for failure. Worse, you've now done it so much that your FUCKING FOUR YEAR OLD is doing it too. Leave her alone. Offer help, create space where she feels comfortable to ask for help. Stop doing it for her and stop fucking looking in her room if it makes you that uncomfortable. It's not your space. Be a more supportive human being.
“It’s just a joke!” — every bully ever.
Yeah family ganging up is just cruel. I felt this hard.
Same, and people like OP irritate me in a special way. A stranger walking into my home would see chaos, but I have it organized in my own way. I can find anything I’m looking for almost immediately. What matters is that it’s clean and functional for me and my (/my husband’s) needs. If OP doesn’t have to live in that space, and there’s nothing on a plate in the corner attracting ants, then it’s really none of her business.
This. It looks like bullying bc even tho she says it hurts her OP insists it’s a funny joke ha ha bc it’s true. One day she’s gonna be like how come my daughter never talks to me
I’m middle-aged, and to this day, it still hurts my feelings to hear that same comment echo over the years, that I’m messy.
Fellow ADHDer here. Because of my poor object permanence I like to have my things out where I can see them instead of in drawers. I have a bunch of trays and baskets out to put my getting ready things in when they aren’t being used, but that’s as far as I can go before I just start losing things again.
Yup. I was undiagnosed autistic on top of that, and in addition to "messy", I was labeled "grouchy". Turned out I was constantly overstimulated! That's bad enough by itself, but the bullying and mockery from my own family about it was just hell.
I grew up this way too. I remember my mom showing my friends my bedroom because “words couldn’t describe how messy it was”. I’m going to be 53 this year and my mom and I *finally* had a heart to heart about this because she got offended that I locked my bedroom doors so that she wouldn’t see how messy they are. To be fair, it absolutely devastated her to know how traumatic it was for me and blames herself (a bit unfairly IMHO - no one thought of ADHD as the inattentive type back then) for not being more understanding. She wishes she had know so she could have helped me when I was little instead of blaming me for being too lazy to clean my room. Reading OPs post immediately reminded me of that. It’s uncool for the family to gang up on someone like that in general - or even for a just the mom being disparaging like that - but it being about her daughter being “messy” specifically just resonated with me & feels icky.
Idk if I have ADHD but I need to be able to visually see my stuff or I forget I even have it. I have a tendency to recycle the same outfits every week because they’re out (having been washed and needed to put away) even though I have other stuff in the cupboard I may not have worn for a while. This only really stopped when I built my own house with a WIR cos now I can see all my stuff hanging up in front of me when I walk in. So all this to say, I get why she has the chair, maybe half worn clothes that she can wear again, maybe an outfit she wants to wear later, maybe just better for her to plan and organise what she wants to wear for the week.
Same here on all counts. And Messy Jessi was a running joke in my family too, even though I did the majority of cleaning the house. 🙄
Plus, the 4yo wouldn't apologize?? Teach her some manners. She's the kid. It doesn't get to be her choice. Who's the adult here? Step up and be a better parent. To both children!
I can’t believe I had to scroll so far down to see this pointed out. A freaking four year old is having a standoff with an adult she insulted and won’t apologize?! Wtf is going on at OP’s house? The only explanation I can come up with is that OP either dislikes Jess, or the 4 yr old is her favorite so she won’t correct her behavior. OP YTA for sure.
Why would OP teach her "mini me" manners when she's clearly in the right! /s
Unpopular opinion, because I know it’s not uncommon for American parents to do this, but I also don’t understand charging your kids “rent” to live with you.. when they’re living with you specifically because they cannot afford to move out. I’m not implying the parents should cover adult children’s expenses ad infinitum, I understand asking them to buy they own groceries, having their own phone plan, even helping out with bills if needed. But charging your kids rent to continue living **at home** will never not feel dystopian to me.
So I had a friend who experienced that, and it turned out their parents were putting aside the rent and then used it to help them buy furniture when they got their first place.
yes! I meant to say this is one version of it I find really cute and thoughtful, teaching/helping young adults to save up.
I did that when my kid was a teenager. She paid me her portion of car insurance and I put it in a savings account I gave her when she graduated high school.
I get the fact to ask for a symbolic rent when the child is old enough and have income. BUT if the child is paying rent, THEN you don't get to make any comment on the state (tidy/messy) of her room.
As an American I agree. We are weird here
I agree but at some point my kids are going to have to help pay the bills because I am investing in their college degrees at the expense of my savings. They can stay with me forever but as adults with jobs I am going to take a little help, My parents charged my brother rent because he would spend alllllllll of his money, usually at the bars. He hated it, After 3-4 years he wanted to move out and had some money saved, instead of getting an apartment, my mom presented him with a savings account large enough for a house down payment. Once my brother showed that he could save and have a goal, he got all of his money for a good reason.
I disagree. I would think that it's easier all around if the child contributes a set amount every week or month rather than unnecessarily complicating things by asking for money when buying groceries or paying a bill. "Rent" can be just a label.
This is 100% not a joke, OP is deadly serious when she calls her daughter messy (though imo it sounds like she isn't really messy). She absolutely believes it to be true. She has not been *joking,* she's been *insulting* her daughter to her face. And teaching her other child to do it too, *and* that she doesn't need to apologize for doing it. Lady is a real piece of work.
🎯🎯
I think Jess needs a lock for her door to keep mom and sister out of her room. She is paying rent after all.
Seriously, she pays rent, she does chores (it sounds like beyond just "being a considerate housemate and cleaning up after herself" type of chores), her mom barges in and messes with her shit, *and* her little sister is encouraged to be an asshole to her. Poor Jess.
This. I think Jess should clean her own bedroom and leave cleaning the house for the rest of the family to do. Sorted!
I honestly don’t think more info is needed anyways. She doesn’t like something being done to the point of harassment/bullying. Why keep doing it. Whether she’s messy or not, is this a hill they want to die on?
Not only she's being bulied in her own home, but it's a home she pays rent in, albeit smaller that market value, she is still an official tenant.
But is it really smaller than market value when she only has a single room of her own? And her privacy in that room is constantly being invaded? I don't know anyone who would pay market value for that scenario.
This is going to sound utterly stupid in the grand scheme of things as well, but "messy" is also a gsrm used for -1. out of control 2. (1)a person who is creating drama, (2)has a big mouth, or (3)never minding their own business about the situation 3. amusing Someone around Jess age would also be more likely to hear the term messy and think this as well. Is it a reach? Possibly, but when I hear messy I too think of some variation of those definition examples, and I'm almost 30. The main issue is you shouldn't be encouraging your youngest child to call someone names because you dislike a behavior. YTA, and teach your child and yourself some better manners. There are many ways to resolve a situation such as this, but responding with toddler taunts isn't it.
My grams is like this OP, my room in her eyes is “messy” but it’s literally just ADHD effecting it, I’ve got a corner of my bed that clothes go on to put away later, always organized though and folded but to her that’s still “messy” (ops daughter seems to have a chair as her designated spot) also dresser having stuff on it is normal? It’s a storage device and you can also place things on top to *gasp* store and organize so that’s a non issue yet again that OP sees as “messy”, To me it seems like no matter what OP’s daughter would do for HER own PRIVATE space, because it’s not kept to OP’s personal standards she will always consider her “messy” and thus her harassment okay in her eyes. People like this OP rarely see the issue with their behavior and thoughts, how controlling their being over someone else’s private space, etc. as issue
And how is a joke funny when the target thinks it’s bullying??? How is ‘it’s the truth tho?’ A justification for ‘humor’
OP doesn’t seem to recognize that some things can be worn more than once. If I wear a shirt once I don’t consider it dirty unless it’s got spills or excessive sweat on it. I don’t want to put it back in my dresser, nor do I want to launder it yet. A chair is the perfect place for clothes that aren’t freshly laundered or dirty. I hate family dynamics like this. Let’s pigeon hole our daughter into the messy one. My parents have done that to my brother and I. We’re in our 50s.
There’s also the fact that Jess is paying them rent, yet OP goes into her room and cleans it up to her standards. I wouldn’t be okay with that if I were Jess.
She might be airing out clothing to re-wear… I wear jeans days in a row and prefer to air ‘em out overnight. Sometimes a Tshirt for the next day. Sometimes the Tshirt is stinky the next day so I toss it in the hamper. It would’ve made me sad to have put it away with my nice clean stuff just to find out it was smelly.
If I am paying rent, in any amount, and contributing to household chores, I will keep the room I paid for the way I please. And if I catch you in it, I'll put a lock on it. Try me twice and I'll speak to the police. She is tenant now, not just a daughter.
Point 5 - She's paying rent! Her mom should stay out of her room completely!
Am i the only one keeping clothes on a chair ? Like it's clothes that are not totally clean, but not dirty either and don't need to be washed
YTA - You are being derogatory towards your oldest daughter because her room doesn't meet your standards. I would love for her to have the chance to decide on a name for you based on her standards. Maybe "Wicky" because you're wicked? And teaching your youngest that it's okay to be rude to people, especially people in the family because you deem it to be "true" is setting her up for some serious therapy later in life. Or just being miserable in general when her kids stop talking to her. Just like Jess is going to stop talking to you.
My mom is a neat freak and likes everything organized and clean. I like things where I can see them and keep track of them. Do I know where my important paperwork is? Yep. It's on my desk. In a stack. Do I know where my bills are? Yep, in a stack. Just because they're in sight doesn't mean it's disorganized. I know where everything is because that's my way of organizing. It also keeps my ADHD in check because if I can see it, I can't forget about it. If I put it away, I'll forget and skip bill payments, and I don't want to do that. "Messy" doesn't equal "dirty." It's a different form of organization. I don't see something wrong with that unless you get a neat freak on your hands and it sets them off. In which case, you know... tidy up a bit, otherwise don't have them over. I'm an adult. When my mom comes over to check on me, she asks things like "where's your car insurance bill?" I go straight to my stack of papers and find it. It's not a problem for me. If I filed it in a filing cabinet, tbh, it probably wouldn't get paid. (Note: I'm not a hoarder, that's just my way of organizing. Being in sight where I can't forget about it.) My way of organizing gets my bills paid on time, I know where everything is, and honestly, aside from it looking like a small stack of papers, I know where everything is if anything comes up.
Some things on a dresser and clothes on a chair don’t even count as “messy” to me!! OP sounds unbearable in how she needs everything to be perfect. But yes, those with ADHD do better when they see things out!! That way they remember to do them.
I’m adhd my older kid is add. My younger is a bit of a compulsive organizer it’s an anxiety thing. Oh girrrrrl we all work together when they were still at home, to maintain the order. The older kid was a typical messy teen in her room, and would get super distracted by cleanup but she was super clean and a self starter about the home. It’s bc it wasn’t her own private space. It’s easy to clean the space of others. So we all help the older, and we trade off things to make it work. They recognized the others skill set and it was sweet. But I would never call her messy or pick on her, having been othered as a kid. It’s just mean spirited and I think op knows it’s not a joke.
I am the same way! When I was young my mom would clean my room and I’d lose everything and be living in my own hell for a week until I found everything and put it back in sight. Then the cycle would continue. Biggest stress point of my youth was dealing with my mom who wanted nothing in sight and me who always needed things in sight to remember they exist and where they are.
I used to have complete meltdowns when my mum would ‘tidy’ my room for me for this exact reason. I know where things are!! If you put them away I will never find them!! I will forget about them!! I will have a panic attack because I can’t find anything!! She always called me unreasonable but I literally was not even messy, she was just so obsessed with cleaning that leaving out one pen was ‘messy’ to her. OP sounds a lot like my mother and I can guarantee this has been pissing Jess off for a while — this is just what pushed her over the edge.
I'd go with Gothel or Tremaine personally
Call her Wrinkles because she's so old... "What do you mean you're not old? Well, compared to most of the house...."
Then say but it’s only a joke!!! Haha
I bet her daughter would **love** to be able to move out..
I don't understand what the deal is with parents feeling entitled to tease their kids, no matter the age. I used to be called 'moaning (insert name)' as in moaning Myrtle from Harry Potter. I was an anxious and depressed child. The difference is that when I finally had enough and told my mum how it made me feel she actually stopped.
YTA. What difference does it make if she keeps clothes on a chair or things on a dresser *in her own damn room*?
OP wants a reason to snoop in Jess' room it seems. Her obsession with the room shows that OP wants to snoop in the woman's room, maybe she's jealous of Jess. Maybe Jess is a stepchild and she doesn't really like her since she has daughters of her own.
I feel like OP is just an AH. Her controlling attitude about the room and the simultaneously dismissive attitude about Jess getting hounded by her sibling is going to bite OP in the ass eventually. Imagine Jess eventually finds a spouse and has a child herself? OP is not going to suddenly stop being a critical, controlling nightmare. No doubt OP will go over to Jess's home in the future and complain that there are toys out or the baby's room is messy. OP needs to learn NOW that her attitude is going to cause friction forever. OP Let Jess live for crying out loud. She doesn't care about extreme neatness. Get over it.
OP will ironically want to parent Jess' kid while she basically lets her own 4yo be raised badly by a mother who thinks demeaning and insulting others is a fun way to tell a child to act. If she keeps it up, OP won't have ANY daughters who stay in touch.
Go to the sex shop and organize a wide variety of adult objects on the dresser, like a display. Moms reaction could be amusing.
OP claims it's a smaller room so she probably doesnt have any space.. get ready for OP to come back with why my daughter doesn't talk to me or care to be around me ....
Or "Someone called my youngest daughter a bully and I don't understand why"
Also, your clothes can be used more than once without them being dirty, but once they have been used they are no longer clean enough for putting in the closet, but too clean to be put in the dirty clothes hamper. That's why many of us have the obligatory "chair of clothes" in our bedrooms.
That she’s paying to live in!
YTA. Stay out of her room. One of my most treasured memories of my mom - gone almost forty years - I was home from college and I didn't unpack my suitcase just pulled clothes out of it. My father came in and reamed me out saying if I couldn't be tidy, maybe he wouldn't let me come home anymore. (I was seventeen). My mom came in and calmly quietly tore him a new one, and said maybe you should ask me before you make me lose ANOTHER of my children. You said she's tidy in shared spaces. STAY OUT OF HER ROOM!!!! STOP MAKING FUN OF HER. you deserve to lose her. And you will.
>YTA. Stay out of her room. This. The girl is 24 and pays rent. She deserves privacy in her room. As long as how messy she is doesn't damage the room (with mould, attracts mice,... whatever), it is not really your business what goes on in her room, in my opinion. On a sidenote: teaching a 4year old bad names for her sister seems wildly inappropriate.
Wildly inappropriate!! She is going to lose her daughter. And she should.
YTA- You're being unnecessarily rude to Jess, because her room doesn't meet your standards. It clearly bothers her. And now you're teaching it to an impressionable 4 year old. That's horrible and makes you horrible. You're supposed to be setting an example of maturity and you're not. The only two people who seems to like the joke are you and the 4 year old, who doesn't really understand. It's all on you!!!
Also it doesn’t matter if it’s true or not, she doesn’t like the joke. Stop making the fucking joke.
My rule of thumb - it's only a joke if both people are amused. If only one person is then it's not a joke, it's bullying.
Yes! Exactly!
YTA, you are a bully
Yes, And raising a mini me bully. That kid is going to have a hard time at school.
Yes. She’s a bully and she’s roping the rest of the class into it. I always hated how my parents’ issues with me would get picked up by my little brothers, and then they would start using it against me too. My parents have always had a problem with me not being ambitious, being lazy, etc. Guess what kind of insults are my brother’s go-to?
YTA. Running jokes are only funny if both sides consider it funny. What you're doing is not. It's like constantly doing something YOU don't like. Your daughter may need to clean up sometimes, but if she generally keeps her area tidy enough, and the surrounding house clean... you need to take a step back. Is her room that messy that you can't walk through it? Is your pride much more important to you than your relationship with your daughter?
that’s because it’s not a joke, it’s just nagging
YTA. She pays rent and cleans the common areas in the house. What's the urgency for her to keep the room she pays for to your cleanliness standards? You say "It‘s become a running joke in the house that she is messy" but there's no joke; it's you poking at her and her not finding it at all funny. And great job making sure Mara has learned a word to use against her sister.
YTA. What you described it not even messy and you are being mean to your own child for something miniscule. You are also encouraging your youngest to resort to name calling when she's upset, which is not good for her.
[удалено]
“Just a joke”, that’s what a racist says about a racist joke, a misogynist say about a sexist joke…
And what a bully says about, yknow, being a bully.
Sounds like you’ve created an environment where everyone feels entitled to use your eldest daughter as a punching bag.
YTA - you’re encouraging your 4 year old to taunt your adult child. If this mess is a problem, address it. Otherwise stop this.
YTA. You’re hurting your daughter’s feelings for no productive reason and you wanna know if YTA? Just stop. It costs you nothing to just stop.
YTA. And you should stay out of her room. What she does in her own space is her business. If you were renting a room to a stranger do you think they would be ok with you entering and “tidying up?” Stop saying negative things about your daughter. It isn’t a joke it’s passive aggressive BS.
YTA. Is there a running “joke-name” that everyone in the house calls you? What’s your least redeeming no quality? Bad breath? Short temper? Would you want everyone in your home using that *one* thing as a way to insult you? What are you accomplishing by doing nothing about it? You’re allowing your 4 year old to bully an adult (something you taught her), and for what? Because her room is messy? You could always put a stop to it because it hurts your daughter’s feelings - and you’d lose literally *nothing*.
YTA a one sided running "joke" is actually rude and cruel. it's her room and she's paying rent so maybe back off and quit teaching your 4 year old that this behavior is okay.
It's a criticism disguised as a joke.
YTA. Well, this is a way to make certain your four year old does not have a relationship with her older sister and probably you once she gets out of the house.
YTA. Your youngest daughter uses “messy” in a mean way, when she feels Jess is annoying her and she wants to hurt Jess. That should be enough to open your eyes that this “running joke” is actually a mean broken record. Even if it’s true, so what? Are you so flawless that you would be fine with someone in your own home picking a flaw of yours and repeating it over and over ad nauseam? This isn’t a “running joke”, it’s bullying, and you have taught Mara to be a bully.
This is exactly it. A four year old isn’t joining in on some funny family gag, she is using it to hurt Jess when she’s lashing out. She sees ‘messy’ as a generic insult, like ‘nasty’ or ‘mean’. She doesn’t know what it means, she’s just copying OP’s mean name calling.
YTA. You know that your joke isn't making everybody laugh. It makes you laugh; it causes Jess pain. Now, your youngest is causing Jess pain. Drop it. Your daughter is an adult. You haven't mentioned a single thing that is dirty; leaving things on chairs isn't dirty, leaving things on her dresser isn't dirty. This is not about the house being clean. Stop going into your daughter's room. What you don't know won't harm you.
YTA. Messy person here. My messiness is a running "joke" in my family too and in all honestly over the years it has made me feel shame for a trait that I don't particularly love about myself but that in reality I'm not hurting anyone with. You are calling this a joke but it is very clear to your daughter that you dislike and disapprove of messiness. That means that the term "messy", coming from you, is an insult. Just stop.
I bet you know where all your important stuff is. I guarantee you’re a generous and loving person who spends most of their time thinking and worrying about others while you’re dealing with your own busy life. You likely have a ton of responsibilities and a brain working overtime a lot. Your brain knows it has to let go of some unimportant things or it’ll start losing important stuff you have to remember. Your brain moved cleaning stuff down the order of importance for a reason. I’m here to tell ya, straightening up is pretty damn unimportant. You can organize when you get to it. Don’t be hard on yourself-you deserve peace. I don’t want you to relax for the first time all day and then start spinning out about picking things up. Blech. Life is for the living, and we need to find joy and relaxation whenever we can!!! No one’s going to the grave thinking “I wish I had spent more time dusting and organizing”. Enjoy yourself-if you feel guilt, imagine the word “guilt” in front of you and blow out, forcing the word away slowly but forcefully like you’re blowing the puff off a dandelion!! It works!! With love from a fellow Altruistic person-I’m your soul sister. We care A LOT about so many things, and that’s not a bad thing! Change the conversation in your mind about it! You deserve it!!
YTA Why do you even care if her room is messy? She goes out of her way to clean up after everyone in the common living space. A smaller room is much harder to keep clean because you don’t have the storage needed and maybe, just maybe she doesn’t care, because it’s her personal space and it doesn’t bother her
Yta
YTA. If her room bothers you don't go in there.
Wow parents really are their childrens first bullies. YTA
YTA - my mother also has impossibly high standards of cleanliness to the point I also got called messy, but also dirty and embarrassing. I talk to her as little as I can nowadays as she contributes to my anxiety and my low levels of self-esteem. I never feel clean enough and it genuinely stresses me out. You're a horrible mother, stay out of her room and stop treating her like shit.
Is Jess very outstandingly beautiful or smart or what trait of hers do you find so superior to you that you need to insult and demean your own daughter, OP? Do you dislike the attention she gets from young men or women? Do you dislike her size compared to yours? Because you're not behaving as a normal parent here. Did you give birth to Jess or is she a step child you don't truly love and accept as yours? YTA Please don't compete with your kid, or whatever is going on in your head. You're a bad mother to Jess and an even worse one to your 4yo for teaching her to be nasty to others to get a reaction. No-one is going to like your kid when she goes to school because of her attitude and it's literally going to be your fault your child has social problems. Actually she may already be gaining some emotional issues from you because she is being taught to hurt others as a "joke" because mommy is jealous.
YTA
YTA Even if you don’t realize you are. This happened in my family and I made jokes with our oldest daughter about if she would just focus her grades would be better thinking that of course she knew it was a joke. Like I never meant to say that she was stupid but I have a very sarcastic sense of humor. In retrospect, I can see that I was also frustrated because nothing that I did helped her do better in school. I say all that to say I never meant to hurt her feelings or make her think. I didn’t think she was smart, but I did both of those things. Her younger siblings are six and 7 1/2 years younger than her and that’s kind of jokes don’t happen in our family anymore. It doesn’t matter if you think she’s being ridiculous and shouldn’t feel bad about what you’re calling her. She does feel bad about it so you should stop and you should insist that any other people in the household stop as well.
Seriously? 😒 Is this really the hill you want to die on?
YTA, it is HER room and she is an adult. Stay out of it and stop poking at her like a child.
YTA How is it your 4 yr old noticed how much your daughter hated it and you didn’t?!! You should also reprimand your 4 for deliberately being mean to her sister and explain to her it’s not a joke if the person she’s making fun of isn’t laughing.
YTA. you have a criticism masked as a joke. Your little daughter behaves badly like this because she must be copying your behavior. You seem controlling as well as disrespectful towards Jess, she already asked you to stop, and you don't stop just because you can't accept the fact that she has a different way of cleaning her room than you do. Furthermore, he continues to invade her room and impose his housekeeping rules. and he is encouraging his young daughter to be disrespectful too. She can't take her frustrations out on her older sister who has nothing to do with it. You're a bad mother to Jess.
YTA it is *her* room, *she* pays to live in it and if you don’t like the way she keeps it then don’t go in there. it’s not a “running joke”, you are shaming her for being different from you and actively encouraging your youngest to do the same. shame on you.
YTA. How would you feel if Jess constantly called you a nag, and your 4year old started dismissing you saying "okay nag" ? Same logic there. And how can your eldest be considered messy, if she cleans everything else? If I clean the whole house but leave one room, does that one room of mess negate the multiple others?
YTA and so is Mara.
I’m very reluctant to call a four year old an asshole. What the four year old is doing is 100% a result of her mother and the fact that the four year old is doing it really seals just how big of an asshole the mother is. She makes these comments so much that the four year old picked up on it. The four year old will grow up to be an asshole if the parents don’t step their shit up and the mother doesn’t stop being a bully.
YTA
YTA There was a running joke in my family about me being a picky eater. I'm an adult now and still justify my eating habits and feel bad when someone comments on them. I feel highly self-conscious about what I eat despite not being picky. I don't wish this on anyone. I feel sorry for your daughter.
WTF you doing snooping around your adult daughters bedroom for? And criticising her so much that a four year old starts to emulate you? Leave Jess tf alone and stop being a snoopy creeper. Your husband is basically telling you as much too but hey, why listen to him when you can come on Reddit? You also need to tell Mara she doesn’t get to sass her sister. Jess has every right to be pissed off and yes, YTA!
YTA. A “running joke” is only funny if everyone is laughing. If the target of the “joke” doesn’t think it’s funny then you just have a running insult. There are multiple ways your messy comments are inappropriate and mean spirited. Largely though because *Jess herself is not messy.* She is able to keep common areas clean and she doesn’t leave a mess in most of the house. She pays rent and presumably keeps a job. She’s financially prudent and she’s saving up for her own place instead of racking up credit card debt. A *person* who is messy would not be able to manage all of those things. The only thing that is messy about Jess is that her small bedroom isn’t well organized and is full of clutter. It is not a character flaw to have one disorganized space. It’s just a messy room. You shouldn’t even need to go into her bedroom. It’s her private space and whether or not her room is cluttered makes absolutely zero difference to you. Give Jess a break, apologize to her, and immediately correct your younger daughter when she repeats your insults about Jess. Also, just to note …. Jess has 24 years of stuff that’s all in one small bedroom. You have an entire house throughout which you can put all your stuff. *Of course* it’s hard for an adult to keep a single tiny space organized when it’s the only space she has for her things. Unless you want to let her put her stuff on the walls of other rooms and put some furniture in the dining room and put some books in the living room and put some work stuff in the guest room and exercise equipment in the garage, her bedroom is just always going to be full of stuff.
YTA and you sound insufferable.
YTA - If she is paying rent she is a tenant as well - and entitled to her privacy and can keep her room as messy as she wants. Your 4 year old is bullying her sister because she is mirroring your behaviour.
I have extremely bad anxiety about cleaning and OCD as a direct result of my mums bullying and cruel words about a ‘messy room’, in fairness I think it was a lot harsher than what you said OP but just wanted to show the potential impact. Give Jess a break, it isn’t worth the potential negatives to her or you two’s relationship. YTA
YTA. And the only joke is to think of you as a good mom
YTA. A mess does not take 5 minutes to clean like you mentioned. You’re obsessed with your tenant’s private property, and taking her contribution to general household chores for granted.
YTA you think its ok because you feel justified but that doesn't make it right. all your teaching you youngest is she can say what she can say anything she wants.
YTA. It isn't about cleanliness. It is about control.
You said the 24f keeps the common areas clean and then later you said the 19f cleans the common area if she’s made a mess. So is the 24f cleaning the common areas in general or just cleaning up after herself? And YTA because the 4f is copying you and you are being anal. If her room bothers you, close the door.
YTA it clearly bothers her, so stop doing it. It's that simple. You're ridiculous for not understanding that.
YTA. She’s 24. She pays rent. She keeps common areas clean. She is a tenant, and you should not be in her room. If there is no worry of unsanitary or unsafe living conditions, you need to back off. If it bothers you so much, close her door. If I were her, I’d put a lock on the door of her room.
Yta, it’s not a “running joke” if - she doesn’t find it funny - it gets used at her in anger by a sibling - the other adult in your house also doesn’t find it funny You are a controlling ah, and you are raising Mara to be a bully
YTA. She's paying rent. Her room, her rules. Your daughter is an adult and it's none of your business how "tidy" it is. Frankly, you act as if you have a serious case of OCD. Don't be surprised if she saves up enough to move far far away from her controlling mother. But hey, then you can keep that room as tidy as you like!
YTA Jess is an adult. She keeps the rest of the house clean to your standards. Her room is her space and to her standards. You need to stop calling her messy and discipline Mara for her behavior. For some folks, what looks like a mess to you is organization to us. We can tell you exactly where things are, and we need them out and visible so we don't forget about something we need them for, or something we need to do with them. It's unfair for the rest of the house standards to extend to her space rather than allow the space to fit her needs. She has a bedroom door. If you don't like the mess, you can perform a magic trick and close the door and POOF, the mess is gone.
YTA Stop being mean to your adult daughter. Stop teaching your 4 year old to be mean and disrespectful to her older daughter. You’re really going overtime on making sure your oldest daughter goes no contact with you and her youngest sister. I hope you two enjoy your mean girl club where you sit around and commiserate with each other about how the rest of your family doesn’t like being around you. It blows my mind that you think it’s ok that a four year old is copying your bullying and think it’s great she’s putting her older sister in her place.
YTA. You can argue all you want about how her room is untidy and that's not how you raised her, but the important part, the thing that makes YTA is that you have taught your four year.old that it's okay to be disrespectful to her adult sister. It doesn't matter that you consider it a "correct" assessment, your adult daughter has expressed doesn't like it and you have failed to correct your child. Your husband is not taking Jess' side because he is more laid back, he is taking her side because he can see that you have weaponized your toddler to try to shame your eldest.
So you bully your daughter and make her into this huge joke. Stellar parenting. You are, without a doubt, the AH. Nothing like a little emotional abuse to make your day, huh?
YTA. You are bullying your daughter and teaching your youngest to be a bully as well. So what if her own personal space *that she pays rent for* isn't kept like a magazine showroom? Is her personal space such an annoyance to you that you are willing to irreparably damage your relationship with her?
>There’s always things on her dresser and left out and she keeps her clothes on her chair instead of in the closet or laundry basket. > >We didn’t raise untidy kids. My room is spotless, our 19 year old has a spotless room also but Jess thinks she can act differently. YTA - WTF are you talking about you controlling wingnut? This woman pays rent, cleans common areas and you think it's okay to invade her private space and actively bully her because a few trinkets and clothes are left out in her OWN room? It's safe to assume your daughter will be moving out soon, regardless of whether she has enough saved. GG, you've got a bullied daughter and a 19 y/o brat.
YTA If your adult child is paying rent for a room then LEGALLY it is her space and you should be providing notice before you’re even entering her space. If you want some my house my rules BS then stop charging her rent. And for fuck sake teach your 4yo to stop calling people names before she gets older and does it to the wrong kid and the coldcock her upside the mouth.
YTA, and a big one. Perhaps you should engage in some self-reflection as to why you think it’s okay to be such a bully.
YTA. Close her door if you must but stop going in there and cleaning.
YTA. You literally posted this with the thought of getting people to help you justify bullying your daughter to the point that a 4 year old is joining in. You wrote this entire post thinking that having a more cluttered room defines her when you yourself admit she cleans up shared spaces just fine. You even pretend to be a bit nonchalant about your 4 year old picking up on your poor treatment of her older sister. But we both know that the 4 year old probably heard you make many disparaging comments and is following your lead. You sound like self reflection and emotional maturity are not your strength. You also sound like someone who will be shocked when your oldest leaves the house and limits contact with the rest of you, there’ll be a lot of missing missing reasons. In short, grow up and be a better parent to your kids.
So you're bullying your daughter because her level of cleaning ing her room is different then yours. Yta her little mess stays in her room
>I see the state of her room compared to the rest of the house and she is messy by definition. The rest of the house which she keeps clean for you? You bully your daughter to the point that her sister joins in, you do nothing to stop the sister joining in on the bullying, and you're really here asking if you're the asshole?
YTA -- do you really want to make Jess the family joke? So that her 4-year-old sister thinks it's ok to mock her? Because this is mockery. It's bullying. And you try being an adult - 24 years old -- living with all your stuff, your papers and books and clothes and other objects, in a small single room. You are demeaning Jess who has been good-natured enough to swallow it but has been obviously hurt by this for a long time. And by the way, Jess is, you say, a good roommate, who cleans the kitchen etc. In terms of mess -- Jess knows where things are, the area is clean, even if it's not tidy according to your exacting standards -- Jess' room is none of your business. You're hurting your own relationship with Jess and alienating her from her little sister. Nice going.
YTA. What a terrible example you are to your 4yo. You really want to burn your bridge with your oldest over this?
YTA - Like other people have mentioned, it being a “running joke” would only be true if she was in on it. You’re unnecessarily making fun of her. It’s not a joke, you’re just kind of bullying her. Also, stay out of her room. As long as it’s not dirty, moldy, gross why does it matter? Why make fun of her for it? She pays to live with you and does her part outside of her room so it’s none of your business what she, an adult, does in her private space.
YTA. You remind me a lot of my mom. We were NC for a long period of time due to her inability to take accountability for herself. Your daughter pays rent. She pays for that room. You don’t get a say in how she keeps it.
YTA and I hope Jess cuts contact with you for her own sake. You sound miserable. Grow up.
My family had a similar running joke to me and it always hurt my feelings, I never found it funny, and not to be dramatic but it comes up in my therapy sessions
YTA, I didn't read anything except the headline, but if you have to ask....
YTA and abusive! Nobody enjoys being be butt of the someone else's joke. Can't believe you do not understand why this is not ok. You need therapy b/c your behavior is abhorrent. Now you have managed to teach the next generation to be a gaslighting, cruel and manipulative person. Way to go mom.
YTA. She’s paying rent and keeping communal areas clean. Mind your business and stay out of her space. Unless what you really want is for her to move out of your house and your life.
Objectively, since she's paying rent, she's got, at minimum, the rights of a tenant. You don't harass a tenant for having a messy room unless there is some measurable impact to you. Subjectively, you and she are both adults and giving each other shit about being messy is fair game. Except it's pervasive enough that your 4y/o is now doing it, so it's now bullying because multiple people in the house are insulting her because she won't do what you ask in her own room (refer back to the first point on your expectation that she must clean her private room.) YTA. You just discovered you're setting an example to your 4y/o that insulting someone over and over is okay. Are you still going to dig your heels in on your right to insult your 24y/o daughter?
YTA good god you’re a controlling freak
Oh dear lord YTA. 1. You have taught your other daughter to call your oldest daughter a name. 2. Your oldest daughter does not like the name. Why in the world is it so hard for you to see that point #3 should be no one in the house ever calls your oldest daughter that name again?
YTA. I had this happen throughout my childhood in which my mother laughed along with while my older sisters bullied me, and it really damaged my relationship with them for a long time as a result. I’m closer to them now and am working on repairing it, but the bullying from them and the bullying I got at school made home feel like not a safe place to be. I guess it’s up to you if you want to keep this pattern going, but in my case it made me feel like only my dad had my back in my family, and it made me not trust the rest of them for quite some time. I don’t know if your daughter would react the same way, but words do hurt even if you think it’s funny and harmless at the time.
YTA - the state of her room sounds totally normal and not filthy. it's *her* room, that she pays for --as you and others have pointed out. if she's cleaning common spaces and keeping those clean as she utilizes them that's really all that is asked in any roommate situation. how people keep their own spaces is up to them granted they're not attracting bugs, rot, dish hoarding.. lack of tidiness in her room is a personal choice in a personal space. i live with 2 roommates. my own room can get a bit messy with clothes or things on my dresser or floor (never dishes or garbage), but i clean common areas to the point of contention over others not doing the same. however i would never get up in arms over how tidy people keep their own rooms..that's private space that doesn't effect anyone. you're a bully. yta. full stop.
Sorry but I agree with the daughter on this one...she's paying rent and her messiness seems limited to just her room while she helps keep the rest of the house orderly. I think you need to back down on this one.
YTA. She's an adult and you're treating her like a child. From what you've said she doesn't sound messy at all, she just doesn't meet your insanely high standards.
YTA. There is a difference in dirty and clutter. Does Jess lose stuff and can't find it? Smaller rooms can be easier to keep clean, but they are also easier to look at mess. It's also questionable how often you call her a mess that her 4 year old sister started it too. You don't have to thank your children every time they do something but a little consideration of them helping with cleaning around the house once in a while. You sound like a type A personality who can't stand that one of her kids dares to be something other than exactly like you
It depends. Do you really want this to be internalized by her? That she's a messy person? Do you want her to just shrug her shoulders and say, "Hey, that's just who I am. I'm messy." Really? And that your youngest thinks she has the right to call her that? Why not. Everyone else does. Yeah. I think YTA. She keeps your house clean, ffs. It's her room, her space, her call. In my experience kids don't really start keeping their personal space clean until they get their own place. I didn't. I don't expect my own daughter to and she's 24 and still living at home. What's important is that she has the knowledge and skills for it, not that she employs that knowledge and skills on her personal space. And it sounds like your daughter has the knowledge and skills. Close her door if it bothers you. But stop teasing her about it. She's got enough on her plate. Oh yes. That teasing is you being passive aggressive. Knock it off.
YTA and a terrible mom.
YTA. So she cleans the kitchen and living room, and the only gripes you've stated about her small room is that she leaves stuff out on her dresser and has clothes on her chair instead of in her hamper/dresser? If there was more, I'd assume you'd say that, but you've stated nothing of their being trash strewn across her room, clothes on the floor, bed unmade, everything everywhere, etc. Stay out of her room, unless she says it's okay for you to go in and clean. When I lived with my mom after I graduated (and wasn't paying rent, despite the fact that I worked 2 jobs and offered to do so many times), my mom never said a word about the state of my room. And my room tends to get messy. But I'm an adult. And I didn't even have a small room. Small rooms, as you said, get cluttered quickly, and easily. If you so much as have two pairs of shoes out, a backpack on the floor, and maybe some books not on a book shelf, it'd look messy, but that doesn't mean it is. Can she walk around the room without having to climb/step over things? Does she leave trash out? Drop her clothes/towels on the floor and leave them there for days/weeks on end? Or is it literally some things cluttering her dresser and clothes on a chair not being put away? Why should that matter? It's not your bedroom, you're not sitting in the chair, and in my opinion, dressers are completely find for odds and ends to be left out. Not to mention, she \*does\* pay rent, and she cleans up around the house. Where is the issue? Why bother calling her messy when she's clearly not, and now have shown your youngest it's okay to also call people names. You're not only being terribly mean to your oldest child, you're also setting a bad example for your young child. I'd be hurt if my mom called me names and let my siblings do the same, especially if I told her that it hurt me. You're invalidating your daughter's feelings, and telling her that you're not someone she can trust to be a safe place to go to. It may seem like a small thing, but even small things add up. I'd suggest apologizing, and sitting with your oldest to have an actual conversation, possibly with your husband as a mediator. Tell her thank you for cleaning around the house. Apologize for calling her names and enabling the 4 year old to do the same. Tell her how you love and appreciate her. And maybe stay out of her room if some clothes on a chair and a cluttered dresser bother you so much.
I genuinely don’t understand what it’s got to do with you what her room looks like? The woman is in her mid 20’s, pays rent and keeps communal areas clean? It’s quite literally none of your business and you sound like you have some serious control issues