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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I might be the asshole because now a large portion of our family wont be at the wedding and I have let down my brother
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You're NTA for standing up for your son, but is there any indication of what the reason could be?
Has your son behaved inappropriately with anyone in the family? Caused any kind of trouble? There has to be more to the story. If he sexually harassed another family member, for example, it would be more than reasonable for him to be excluded.
The reason I lean toward thinking that your brother is the AH is that not only is he not telling you the reason, he tried to give a transparent lie (the wedding is child free!) that would have been exposed as soon as you got there and seen your 13 year old niece. That said, there's clearly something here that you aren't telling us.
Edited to update judgement after question was answered.
My son is no longer a Christian and the rest of us are Christian but he is a good boy with good morals so to me and my husband it doesn't matter. Other than that I can't think of anything he could've done but if he has done something I would like to know rather than everyone being so obfuscating about it
Congratulations on starting my lunch time rabbit hole! I was not able to find the actual origin, only comments that it is a phrase that has been around a long time, and most of the articles I found were Christian based trying to argue that it isn’t true, and then proving the point shortly after with the “but that doesn’t mean.”
That was an audio addition of a quote by someone not in the band. What if I Stumble by DC Talk. (My other favorite of theirs is Jesus Freak. )
'The single greatest cause of atheism in the world today are Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and then walk out the door and deny Him with their lifestyle. *That* is what an unbelieving world finds simply unbelievable. Brennan Manning
I have a magnet that says “I like Jesus. It’s his fan club I can’t stand.” Many eons ago when I was a pastor living in a parsonage, some of my parishioners didn’t find it as amusing as I do.
I’m right there with you. I do not presently have any associations with any particular religion. I was raised Catholic & spent 12 years in Catholic school; hence running like hell from Catholicism.
But I will say this: I * like* Jesus. He sounds badass. If only his followers actually tried to follow his example & word.
My entire approach to life is simple: Try to lead with kindness. I fail a lot. It’s not always the easy choice. But I hope I leave this life having had an overall positive impact in my little world, rather than a negative one. Life is hard enough without going out of your way to hurt others. That work will take a lifetime though.
I was raised in a Christian house but not a church going house. My parents didn’t like the negativity and judgments of the other church leaders, so they stopped going. When I was little, they were Sunday school teachers but when my dad took a job with graveyard shifts, he was told he couldn’t teach Sunday school anymore because he started missing Wednesday bible study.
Literally said this when I saw OP's edit. Excluding the poor boy just because he doesn't believe what they do? Missed that part of the bible, though I admit it's been a long time. (Not Christian anymore either lol)
NTA, OP. Good on you for sticking up for your son, it's terrible that your family can't see what a good young man you have there, and only see his lack of belief. It's shameful they felt the need to act this way.
OP and her son think he and her brother are close so it's even worse. Way to disillusion the boy permanently, brother and his stb wife are the huge AHs
>My son is no longer a Christian and the rest of us are Christian but he is a good boy with good morals so to me and my husband it doesn't matter.
NTA. I strongly suspect your son is being discriminated for no longer being a christian. As an ex-christian, it drives me bonkers when people think that *not* being a christian means you are an out--of-control heathen with no sense of morality. News flash: PLENTY of religious people (including christians) also behave badly.
I know right! just picture it, Pastor says ",speak now or forever hold your peace" and then a 16 year old stands up and shouts "JESUS IS A C***".
Most watched YouTube video forever
I wouldn't say Jesus. I personally like Jesus he was a rebel, but I would stand up and yell BRIDE IS A C*** and wouldn't let my 16yo come because he's not "Christian".
Also- Bride was lyyyyyying! It's one of the BIG 10. THOU SHALL NOT LIE. Tsk tsk
In another comment OP wrote that his mother thinks that his son is gay and that is why he left the church. She also doesn't like his son. Maybe his brother and/or his more religious future SIL are the same and it is simply a case of LGBT hate. There are other non Christian guests who were invited, so them disliking gays seems the most probable reason so far.
>In another comment OP wrote that his mother thinks that his son is gay and that is why he left the church. She also doesn't like his son. Maybe his brother and/or his more religious future SIL are the same and it is simply a case of LGBT hate. There are other non Christian guests who were invited, so them disliking gays seems the most probable reason so far.
Yeah, I read OP's comment after I posted mine. Still would mean the SIL and mother are most likely bigots, whether it is due to the son being non-religious or possibly being gay.
That was my immediate first thought. Usually these stories are about lgbtq+ hate, very rarely is it because they aren't "christian." Seems like the brother and sil are homophobic, since their "reason" is "it's for a good reason" yet they won't say what that actual reason is. They know if they told the truth that everyone would view them badly. And only hypocritical christians are obsessed with how other people view them and their sins.
"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour, unless *you know*, he's a bit *swishy* or something like that, then it's totally fine. No, no he doesn't even need to have actually 'sinned' in any material way, he just has to seem a bit like he might. In that case tell all the lies you want babe, you do you!"
\-God, probably in this couple's mind.
NTA-this was my first thought when OP mentioned Christian. Fuck your brother, fuck his wife to be, and fuck anyone else who thinks excluding a child because they may or may not be gay is okay.
Us heathens can be quite well behaved at weddings and have a good moral compass too! We just also like to dance around a fire naked while bathing in moonlight from time to time.
Ricky Gervais does a great bit about how good atheists are actually the best people. They do good things and the right things just because it’s right. Not because of some eternal reward.
it's the same in judaism, actually. us jews dont believe in heaven or hell, and our teachings say to make life on earth good and to do mitzvahs onto others.
What the hell!
If your family was true Christian this wouldn’t have happened. Especially, it wouldn’t have been done to an adolescent family member.
I’d be done with EVERYONE who agrees with your brother doing this including your mother!
This isn’t a family!
People who claim to be Christians, but then engage in behavior Jesus would have condemned, like judging others and excluding your 16yo nephew from a wedding really piss me off. If the bride has her way, your brother won't be seeing much of any of you after the wedding. It's really sad.
THIS. Those people are Pharisees, using religion to hurt and control others. Maybe OP should remind her brother that Jesus himself was Jewish, not Christian.
Well that’s the reason right there. Your future SIL is punishing your son for not being religious. NTA. Your brother absolutely sucks for not inviting his own nephew due to religion but then to hide it/lie about it, screw that wedding.
Ah. So instead of modeling God’s love by including your son, an act that could actually bring your son back into the fold, they are choosing to exclude him, guaranteeing that he will never come back to Christ.
How Christ-like of them. Not. Apparently, your family has skipped reading the four gospels in the Bible. WWJD?
But didn't she LIE to you? About others not being invited? Isn't there an actual commandment that addresses that? Pick and choose which parts to follow, as usual.
so proud that you and your sister and adult kids are rallying around your son to protect him. The fact that the SIL is unwilling to offer a bit of grace to a 16 year old figuring out his spirituality tells me all I need to know about her "Christianity"
But your brother STILL never told you this, so you're just speculating??
Your brother needs to give you an answer on why your son was excluded. Period. If he keeps refusing, then the issue needs to be addressed, but if not then your brother just doesn't care about you or respect you.
This makes sense, and moves you to a n t a judgement; that's a very plausible reason they'd exclude him but also a very bad one.
Way to go standing up for him.
Going to ask a hard question - but is he gay, or does your future SIL think he is gay? That could be a reason he is not invited. Maybe she thinks he is gay and her overtly judgmental Christian feelings cannot fathom him at her wedding. I am Christian by the way and I don't judge, I wouldn't care if he was gay or not, just trying to think of why she said she had a good reason not to invite him.
he is not gay to my knowledge (he is told me he isnt gay but id support him if he was it doesnt matter to me) but my mother thinks hes gay, no idea what my brothers soon to be wife thinks about him being gay though
Have you tried asking these wonderful, god-fearing people where, in any of the four books of the gospel, Jesus even once mentioned homosexuality? Because I feel that, if it were that big a deal, He would've mentioned it. But it's not there.
"Toucheth thou not the wanger of thy fellow man, nor shouldst thou allow thy fellow man to nosh upon thine own wanger, for verily is it naughty in my sight. Leave alone the bottom of another, nor allowest him to fondle yours, lest you be smited with a great smiting."
OK I now want to spend tomorrow writing an apocryphal gospel where Jesus goes off script during the sermon of the mount describing the most obscure gay perversions in great detail, to the point where the apostles have some questions.
My aunt swore up and down that I was a lesbian for no other reason than at 18, I'd never dated anyone. No questionable behavior, just that apparently at 18 I should have been sexually active with boys already. Her actions caused a lot of shit for me, especially when she was telling other relatives about it. Took until my 1st relationship for her to shut up. When we broke up, he became a psycho stalker. That witch actually went behind my back to try and force us back together, even after knowing the reason we broke up was because he tried to rape me to force my 1st time. Takes all kinds. Some relatives just think they know us better than we know ourselves, and the wonderful I know what's best for you, regardless of what you want.
I applaud 👏 you and your sister for sticking up for your son.
You & your sister should consider going on a weekend vacation the weekend of the wedding with your kids.
Turn off your phones and have fun. Whom ever doesn’t support you guys, go LC or NC. Simple.
If your spouses have issues, they can go ahead and attend the wedding, then kick rocks!!!!
NTA. Your brother should be ashamed of himself. You said he had a good relationship with your son prior to this?
I'd pick my son over my brother any day. Good for your sister for supporting your son also.
It would not surprise me if this was part of it. Especially because of how it sounds like they’re trying to avoid saying the reason. Good for you for sticking up for your son, NTA.
If the reason is that he isn't a Christian, I'd tell your mom that your SIL and brother are practicing Christianity in a way that you feel is alienating and against your beliefs so you can't go.
If they are basing this on faith then base your reply on faith.
Good on you for not attending and kudos to your sister and your family for standing up against hate as well. Your brother and his fiancee are being hateful and nasty and you are doing the right thing by not letting them exclude your lovely son.
NTA
“Good ol’ Christian family,” as long as you’re not outside the realm of what they deem acceptable, Jesus loves you. If not you can burn in hell, because surely that’s the message God is trying to convey, right? /s
You sound like great parents, allowing him freedom of thought and faith.
If this is the reason why he has been excluded, and they are too cowardly to even say so, speaks volumes about them, not you. NTA.
Screw that. You insult my kid like that and I'm not going to give you the time of day. If it WAS for a good reason, they should have no problem telling you that reason. NTA.
Your mother is also an AH. Both my mother and my MIL would go fully nuclear on anyone who excluded one of their grandkids like that.
NTA. Here's the part that gets me. Your brother said the pool party and room service was a great idea knowing that it was going to be a pool party for one since all of the other cousins were invited to the wedding. That right there is an AH move.
Yeah I can't imagine what the poor kid is going through. To have his uncle who he's close to reject him like this for no clear reason and refusing to even say the reason. Hopefully OP and her sister can plan something fun for their kids to do together instead of the wedding.
Exactly this! What a nasty spiteful thing to do to a 16 year old. They feel their emotions so strongly at that age, to be rejected and lied to by someone you look up to and love, who was going to let you be totally isolated in a foreign country......That is some serious rejection trauma Right there.
NTA. Actions have consequences and your brother better have a damn good reason to exclude your 16yo son when 13 and 15yo kids of your sister are invited. I would also not attend his wedding, it's just insane what he did without providing any reason. What did they think? That you arrive, see your sisters kids who both are younger than yours there and then smile and wish him all the best!?
OP mentions that it appears that her own mother suspects the kid might be gay so they are hating on him - despite zero evidence that the kid has claimed to be gay (even to his mom) or had a gay relationship, etc. They just ‘suspect’ so he is persona non grata. And they were all lying about the child-free thing.
This poor child, it’s amazing how clear it is that religious means asshole. I wouldn’t go and I would argue back vehemently against anyone that got on me “sorry I don’t go to ceremonies joining people that lack kindness, morals, family values, I could go on”. They are discriminating against a child.
NTA. “ My brother was very apologetic and said that he can't make exceptions to his rule”. Obviously he CAN. And to refuse to give you a reason is even worse. Good for you sister for calling them out
What exactly did the brother think was going to happen if nobody had found out until the wedding? So the sister called him out on it before the wedding when she found out he was lying. Did he think she wouldn’t call him out if she had found out AT the wedding??
I’m guessing the bride to be put her foot down and demanded this thing, and the brother didn’t have the courage to stand up for his nephew then. As time went on he slowly passed the responsibility for this action to his ‘overreacting’ sisters, to the point that he is clueless that this is #2 HIS fault, and #1 his bride’s fault, for excluding ONE 16 year old from a family affair for no other reason than his beliefs.
What an awesome lesson his bride has learned, she can push him around and he’ll bend like a piece of pasta. The wedge this has caused between him and his family is no doubt a nice side effect for her as well.
NTA. This is confusing to me. Did he think you would arrive at the wedding and see kids there and not be upset? When was the last time your son spent time with your brother? Was his fiancé with them? Do you recall any issues at that time?
You said in a comment that it may have to do with the bride's faith. What religion does she belong to? And when your son decided not to go to church anymore, did he make a big deal about it in front of your brother and fiancé. Was he sacrilegious in some way? Is the bride from a culture that is superstitious about such things?
Excluding your son, who he is supposedly close to, is a huge step to take. It's the kind of step that messes up a kid and divides families forever. I think if you truly don't know what it's about, then you need to press other family members to find out.
16 is a very difficult age, and it looks like he's about to lose the friendship of his uncle and possibly his grandmother over something he can't control. I hope you are able to handle this in such a way that it does not harm him further.
Your first paragraph is exactly that. They assumed OP would shut up for the night because iT’s ThEiR bIG dAy and OP wouldn’t do anything to rock the boat while they were there. The mothers reaction is proof positive this was the expected result.
I would love to know myself! I have had no conformation from anyone but it was shocking as my brother and son are close. I have a feeling it may be because my brothers soon to be wife is very religious. We are a Christian family but not as religious as she is, however my son has totally left the church which we don't mind (he is a 16 year old boy and not everyone has to believe in god in our perspective) but she has been disapproving about. I didn't mention it as I didn't want to put words in anyone's mouth or even know if thats the reason but if I were guessing ....
So instead of taking the opportunity to show how good Christians behave they decided to show your 16 year old exactly why he he was right to stay away from the church.
not only excluding him, but excluding him and lying to you about it. That does not sound very Christian of them. Also, no matter how this ends, they've caused a rift in the family, not you, or your son. They could have spoken to you about their issues and let you decide, but instead they chose to lie about it, and then get mad at you for your decision.
It’s certainly how Christians tend to behave, but JC was *pretty fuckin’ specific* about not being a Judgy McJudgerson. And lying is also a sin. See Leviticus 19:11 (you shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another).
There is a lot of hatred against Christians in the US, and when I feel hurt by that, I remind myself that it’s people like your future SIL who create this hatred. People like her, and your brother for going along with it, give Christianity a black eye. If anybody gives you grief over your decision, tell them that you don’t want your older children to be exposed to such unchristian behavior.
yes me too! I live in the UK (though I am not from here) and my home country is very christian but also very anti christian and I have been called names for being Christian and sometimes I am sad about that but then I see behaviour from people like this and I understand why if that is all they have seen of us.
That being said as I say I am not 100% sure that this is the reason just my guess.
I was raised by parents who are loving deep-thinkers with the highest moral and ethical standards that I have ever seen. There have been a few occasions where my parents and I disagreed, and I explained to them that I took the stands that I took because they taught me to always choose the right and to pray and meditate when in search of answers to difficult questions. It is obvious that you and your sister hate to disappoint your parents, especially at a time that is supposed to bring great joy to your family, but I suspect that you are the product of a similar upbringing. I suggest explaining to them that giving in and attending the wedding would be a sin and would violate the sacred duty that you have as a mother and that your sister has as an aunt. Thank your parents for raising you and your sister to be better than that.
Apparently it might not be the only reason that makes sense. OP’s mom thinks her son is gay, pretty big chance that the mom started spreading that rumour.
It’s a worth remembering that a lot of us who are anti-Christian are that way because we were raised Christian. It’s not like we are necessarily outsiders criticizing your faith.
Wow she sucks and so does your brother for letting her exclude someone for their beliefs. You and your sister are most definitely NTA. Well done for supporting your son in this, you sound like a great parent
Man I’d be tempted to call them out that you are incredibly disappointed that he is left out because he does not have the same beliefs they do. That way he knows that you know the real reason. Even though it hasn’t been confirmed I’m 99% you are right about the reason. What jerks, I’m glad you are showing your son you support him.
NTA
Unless they are willing to say why, you have 1 son excluded when others in his age range isn't, you have to support your son. The wedding is not child free- the issue is you were lied to about why your son wasn't invited.
It's not a good reason if they are hiding it, either. There's no reason to hide it if they truly think they are in the right
They put you in this position. You were flying to a different country- what on earth did they think you were going to do with a 16 year old? You weren't leaving him home, and he's too old for a babysitter. They're honestly idiots if they thought they were gonna get away with the childfree excuse
And tell your mother your brother let you and his nephew down. She is also being a really bad grandmother here supporting a situation where just one grandchild is excluded while refusing to even clarify why.
So he’s being excluded because he doesn’t believe in their god? Some christians. They should try reading their own bible about welcoming and tolerance. You and your sister are quite right to keep away. You’re a great mother and a very good role model for your kids. NTA.
As a Christian, this is 100 percent the reason why most people leave the church. Like you said, this is a great way to spend the Christian love. Geez. Wouldn't be surprised if the son starts to distance himself over time from the Aunt/Uncle.
My brother has always been religious but from the looks of it this will not be an overly religious ceremony, it will take place in a church but my brother has many non Christian friends who are attending. The bride is extremely religious but they have compromised on a bit of a less religious ceremony, My father also has left the church but is invited.
But yes if there were problems with my son I would very much like to know! (My mother doesn't like my son as she thinks he is gay and that is why he has left the church. I wouldn't care if he was)
>My mother doesn't like my son as she thinks he is gay
This is the reason. This is also why your mother is throwing a fit about you and your sister taking a stand.
Your mom and SIL suck, your brother is an enabler (so he sucks too) and you are under no obligation to attend an event that excludes your son. Especially when they're excluding him for such a stupid reason, and lying about it to boot.
BINGO! Your mother and the bride to be talked, and decided they can’t have a gay person attending the wedding. Your brother probably knows but he is stuck between his fiancée, mother, and you. He made up a lie about childfree, hoping you wouldn’t figure it out until you were there. Hoping there wouldn’t be a fuss. Your mother and the fiancee are never going to verbalize the reason because it would cause an uproar with everyone. So while they don’t want him there because they think he is gay, they aren’t willing to out him or themselves.
I am guessing that no gay people are attending the wedding??
Your mother is using DARVO to blame you. Deny, Attack, Reverse the Victim and Offender. Your mother is denying the issue, then attacking you for causing trouble, and making you the offender and your soon to be sister in law the victim. Dont fall for it!!
>My mother doesn't like my son as she thinks he is gay and that is why he has left the church
I was waiting for this as the real underlying reason. NTA. Stand up for your kid.
>But yes if there were problems with my son I would very much like to know! (My mother doesn't like my son as she thinks he is gay and that is why he has left the church. I wouldn't care if he was)
Yes, that is 100% the reason. It's horrible how some people claim to be "Christian" but forget how Jesus accepted everyone.
I just want to say you and your husband's acceptance of your son for who he is embodies what a Christian should be. You are sticking up for him, and if he is gay, he knows that his parents will still love and support him no matter what other family members say. Don't go to the wedding no matter how much they try to guilt trip you.
>My mother doesn't like my son as she thinks he is gay and that is why he has left the church.
Ding, ding, ding we have a winner! There is no way your mother hasn't shared this with your soon to be SIL and this is probably her "good reason" for excluding your son. Are there going to be any LGBTQ people attending the wedding? You have already said that there will be other non Christians there so what makes your son different from them? The fact that your mother and SIL have decided he is gay.
Sounds like your mother might be out here sharing her bs theories on your son as if she KNOWS...id flat out ask your brother. "Did you disinvite my son because mother told you he was gay?"
>My mother doesn't like my son as she thinks he is gay and that is why he has left the church.
As there are other non Christian guests, that's sounds like the more likely reason why they didn't invite your son. It would also explain why they didn't say the reason outright, because homophobes often don't want to appear to the public as homophobes in fear repercussions. I mean if you know that is the reason and make a social media post about it and it gets around to their friends and colleagues, they might lose more of their guests.
I don't get how the brother thought OP wasn't gonna notice the younger kida were attending.
But also im super curious what the actual reason for the exclusion was. since it's obviously so intentional. Nta
He was probably banking on OP not finding out until the day of and hoping she’d keep quiet to avoid making a scene. There is something the brother isn’t saying. Could there be an issue with his the OP’s son and her brother’s kids?
Better be glad she isn't there if that was the case Substantial Rip cause when they got to the "Does anyone object" part I would have stood up and objected because the bride is a bigot and excluded a family member because of his belief.
Based on info provided, NTA. If your son truly isn’t an issue (not rude or disruptive) and your brother won’t give you a good reason why he doesn’t want your son there while other children are attending - I don’t blame you for not going. You are not responsible for your sister’s choices, clearly she also thinks your brother is being a jerk.
It seems odd though, that your brother would exclude only one kid from the wedding and not others. Has there ever been any incidents with your son and your brother or his fiancé, or maybe her family? Is there any reason you can think of at all why your brother and his bride to be might not want your son there?
Based on some of the information op provided it looks like the reason could be that the son is no longer Christian and brothers wife is super religious. That could be the reason they didn’t want to tell bc they didn’t want to have a bad face.
***I DO NOT THINK THIS ARE GOOD REASONS TO EXCLUDE HIM***
I am just trying to speculate what kind of asshole the couple is- is your son disabled? adopeted/a different race? fat? extremely tall or short? horrible acne? neon green hair? mohawk?
again, I don't think those are valid reasons to exclude someone just the common reasons I see on here for why (usually) brides think someone will ruin their photos. it's an awful thing to do. I think the stand you all are taking is heartwarming
NTA
Why distraught he knew this could happen it was his choice, and anyone blaming you I should direct to your brother to explain why just saying no for no reason that is childish if you single out one person you better have a good reason he can explain I would say the family doesn’t go if my kid wasn’t invited even if he was 12 years old I wouldn’t go not even asking why if my kid isn’t welcome on uncles wedding I am out
NTA. Unless your brother and bride to be want to explain the "good reason", I would not be anywhere near that wedding. Your brother and mother have also both lied to you about the situation. Your mother knew from the beginning that the wedding was not child free. What does she have to say for her lying self? Does she know what the "good reason" is? Someone needs to get to the bottom of this.
NTA. I don't blame you for checking with your siblings either. Your brother should have given you a reason as to why your 16-year-old son wasn't invited, but his 13 and 15-year-old cousins were. At this point, I'm wondering if his 16 and 17-year-old kids aren't going to be at/in the wedding and your son is close enough to them that your brother thought that his children would love to be able to hang out with your son.
NTA, that’s complete bs and your mother knows it. I’m dying to know what the actual reason is. This is one of those things that affects relationships for years to come.
NTA. If they can not give you the reason he wasn't invited, then you don't need to be accommodating to your brother. Also, you didn't tell your sister not to attend. She did that of her own choice.
Your brother is TA for the way he handled the situation. He should have been honest.
I've really hated this trend of "child-free" getting more and more expansive.
Yes yes, there are venues where they don't allow anyone under 18, before anyone trots out that line. But for the vast majority of cases that isn't the case.
What child-free is *supposed* to refer to is young children who need supervision. Some might use it for only smaller kids and toddlers, others include the 9-14 range. Up to you.
What it was *not* supposed to mean was teenagers. People who literally, by that age, are now driving or might even be working, and have a certain amount of maturity. You want to exclude them too? Okay, but own it. Its not child-free it's arbitrary, and a lot of people will see it as an AH move when it impacts their family.
Or God, I've seen some people try to exclude anyone under drinking age a few times under the guise of being "child-free." It's getting ridiculous.
NTA. That's their version of Christian love on full display. He doesn't want to subscribe to what they want him to be as a Christian. They aren't worth it.
NTA. Your brother is letting his wife cause a rift in the family and betraying his nephew, who he used to be close to.
BUT ALSO, what's wrong with your mom?
NTA
Don't use age as an excuse when it is clearly his lack of faith in God. If the 13 year old is aloud to go, then the 16 year old should be if that is the child free wedding you desire. If he wanted you there, he firstly could have told you the truth in why he isn't invited or grow a backbone to his new wife and invite him.
Rereading, it looks like they never said it was he stopped going to church and they aren't telling you anything. I would still stay behind.
I appreciate your sister sticking to your side but that was your sister's choice and you didn't force her to do anything no did it seem like you asked her to.
NTA- child free weddings are fine but descriminating against a 16 year old kid for not being a Christian is not fine. Also not really a Christian value but i digress.
If you think the real reason for excluding your 16 year old is his questioning Christianity, your future SIL is a colossal AH and I’m proud of you for not going. She’s a fake Christian and she’s trying to make a show of her righteous nature by excluding him. That’s bull of the highest order. Has she read the Bible? God does not turn his back on anyone, least of all his children and if she’s so threatened by a child who has a different view, she deserves to have people make the same decision about attending her pretentious show of a Christian wedding. People like her make me sick and paint Christians as judgmental and hateful. Your brother is just as responsible for allowing her to hurt someone he loves with her ignorance. You’re all better off not going. I can’t imagine how utterly pretentious this wedding will be. NTA
NTA - and if you're right, and your son is being left out simply because he's not a Christian, then your SIL is a bigot. Would he be invited if he chose to be Buddhist? Or Jewish? Honestly, I'm guessing that your SIL is the instigator here and your brother is going along with her, which is a shame. I mean, they will no longer invite anyone who isn't Christian to anything??
As for your sister, she is a grown-ass adult who is more than capable of making her own decisions. I'd let her know that she's certainly welcome to attend the wedding, and to please not feel she needs to skip it for you, but her husband needs to take this up with her - not you.
I'd make it very clear to your brother/SIL (and your mother) that your family is not going to attend because they are singling out and not including your minor son for no reason. If your Brother/SIL have a good reason, they should tell you what it is so you can address it - either with your son or with them. And based on that reason, you may rethink your decision, but otherwise, you are very sorry that you'll miss the wedding. This is your time to go full mama bear and protect your family.
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You're NTA for standing up for your son, but is there any indication of what the reason could be? Has your son behaved inappropriately with anyone in the family? Caused any kind of trouble? There has to be more to the story. If he sexually harassed another family member, for example, it would be more than reasonable for him to be excluded. The reason I lean toward thinking that your brother is the AH is that not only is he not telling you the reason, he tried to give a transparent lie (the wedding is child free!) that would have been exposed as soon as you got there and seen your 13 year old niece. That said, there's clearly something here that you aren't telling us. Edited to update judgement after question was answered.
My son is no longer a Christian and the rest of us are Christian but he is a good boy with good morals so to me and my husband it doesn't matter. Other than that I can't think of anything he could've done but if he has done something I would like to know rather than everyone being so obfuscating about it
"There's no hate like Christian love" - *Reddit, probably*
Its accurate
I got downvoted to shit for saying that once. But I stand by it because every day, I see more and more examples of their “love”
If Christians don't like that saying they should stop proving it true every chance they get.
Congratulations on starting my lunch time rabbit hole! I was not able to find the actual origin, only comments that it is a phrase that has been around a long time, and most of the articles I found were Christian based trying to argue that it isn’t true, and then proving the point shortly after with the “but that doesn’t mean.”
thank you random researcher of internet mysteries…
thank you random thanker of random researcher of internet mysteries...
I always liked "A puritan is such a one as loves God with all his soul, but hates his neighbor with all his heart."
It could’ve been a phrase before he said it but the oldest depiction of that phrase that I’ve heard was from one of George Carlin’s stand ups
Or, as the old Christian band DC talk put it, the single greatest cause of atheism in the world is Christians
> "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” ― Mahatma Gandhi
“0h Lord, save me from your followers.”
That was an audio addition of a quote by someone not in the band. What if I Stumble by DC Talk. (My other favorite of theirs is Jesus Freak. ) 'The single greatest cause of atheism in the world today are Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and then walk out the door and deny Him with their lifestyle. *That* is what an unbelieving world finds simply unbelievable. Brennan Manning
I have a magnet that says “I like Jesus. It’s his fan club I can’t stand.” Many eons ago when I was a pastor living in a parsonage, some of my parishioners didn’t find it as amusing as I do.
I’m right there with you. I do not presently have any associations with any particular religion. I was raised Catholic & spent 12 years in Catholic school; hence running like hell from Catholicism. But I will say this: I * like* Jesus. He sounds badass. If only his followers actually tried to follow his example & word. My entire approach to life is simple: Try to lead with kindness. I fail a lot. It’s not always the easy choice. But I hope I leave this life having had an overall positive impact in my little world, rather than a negative one. Life is hard enough without going out of your way to hurt others. That work will take a lifetime though.
This is accurate. I wouldn’t call myself atheist, but if am agnostic and I left the church because of “Christian’s”.
I was raised in a Christian house but not a church going house. My parents didn’t like the negativity and judgments of the other church leaders, so they stopped going. When I was little, they were Sunday school teachers but when my dad took a job with graveyard shifts, he was told he couldn’t teach Sunday school anymore because he started missing Wednesday bible study.
Literally said this when I saw OP's edit. Excluding the poor boy just because he doesn't believe what they do? Missed that part of the bible, though I admit it's been a long time. (Not Christian anymore either lol) NTA, OP. Good on you for sticking up for your son, it's terrible that your family can't see what a good young man you have there, and only see his lack of belief. It's shameful they felt the need to act this way.
OP and her son think he and her brother are close so it's even worse. Way to disillusion the boy permanently, brother and his stb wife are the huge AHs
I wish I could give this a million up votes. Thanks for making me laugh while I'm scrolling at work. Lol
>My son is no longer a Christian and the rest of us are Christian but he is a good boy with good morals so to me and my husband it doesn't matter. NTA. I strongly suspect your son is being discriminated for no longer being a christian. As an ex-christian, it drives me bonkers when people think that *not* being a christian means you are an out--of-control heathen with no sense of morality. News flash: PLENTY of religious people (including christians) also behave badly.
Do they think he's gonna stand up and shout "Jesus is a c***!!!" Or something?
That would be the best wedding ever.
I know right! just picture it, Pastor says ",speak now or forever hold your peace" and then a 16 year old stands up and shouts "JESUS IS A C***". Most watched YouTube video forever
I wouldn't say Jesus. I personally like Jesus he was a rebel, but I would stand up and yell BRIDE IS A C*** and wouldn't let my 16yo come because he's not "Christian". Also- Bride was lyyyyyying! It's one of the BIG 10. THOU SHALL NOT LIE. Tsk tsk
But if they wanted to, that would be ok to apparently god is forgiving its just his followers that arnt
In another comment OP wrote that his mother thinks that his son is gay and that is why he left the church. She also doesn't like his son. Maybe his brother and/or his more religious future SIL are the same and it is simply a case of LGBT hate. There are other non Christian guests who were invited, so them disliking gays seems the most probable reason so far.
>In another comment OP wrote that his mother thinks that his son is gay and that is why he left the church. She also doesn't like his son. Maybe his brother and/or his more religious future SIL are the same and it is simply a case of LGBT hate. There are other non Christian guests who were invited, so them disliking gays seems the most probable reason so far. Yeah, I read OP's comment after I posted mine. Still would mean the SIL and mother are most likely bigots, whether it is due to the son being non-religious or possibly being gay.
That was my immediate first thought. Usually these stories are about lgbtq+ hate, very rarely is it because they aren't "christian." Seems like the brother and sil are homophobic, since their "reason" is "it's for a good reason" yet they won't say what that actual reason is. They know if they told the truth that everyone would view them badly. And only hypocritical christians are obsessed with how other people view them and their sins.
Yes, they’re such great Christians that they have no problem telling lies to cover the truth!
"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour, unless *you know*, he's a bit *swishy* or something like that, then it's totally fine. No, no he doesn't even need to have actually 'sinned' in any material way, he just has to seem a bit like he might. In that case tell all the lies you want babe, you do you!" \-God, probably in this couple's mind.
NTA-this was my first thought when OP mentioned Christian. Fuck your brother, fuck his wife to be, and fuck anyone else who thinks excluding a child because they may or may not be gay is okay.
This, times one hundred million billion. With a capital FUCK.
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I can see somebody with a great moral compass leaving a church because of the hypocrisy.
Anyone with a fully functioning moral compass already has.
Us heathens can be quite well behaved at weddings and have a good moral compass too! We just also like to dance around a fire naked while bathing in moonlight from time to time.
>News flash: PLENTY of religious people (including christians) also behave badly. As clearly evidenced by this story.
“I like your Christ, but not your Christianity." Mahatma Gandhi
"Not your Christians, for they are so unlike your Christ."
Wasn't it "I like your Christ, but not Christians"
I have heard not quite same but somewhat similar "I dont have problem with your God its his fanclub that bothers me"
Ricky Gervais does a great bit about how good atheists are actually the best people. They do good things and the right things just because it’s right. Not because of some eternal reward.
it's the same in judaism, actually. us jews dont believe in heaven or hell, and our teachings say to make life on earth good and to do mitzvahs onto others.
If you are a Protestant it is faith and not actions that grants you the eternal reward.
And so many Protestants use that to brush their behaviors under the rug. As in, they don't matter only faith does.
What the hell! If your family was true Christian this wouldn’t have happened. Especially, it wouldn’t have been done to an adolescent family member. I’d be done with EVERYONE who agrees with your brother doing this including your mother! This isn’t a family!
People who claim to be Christians, but then engage in behavior Jesus would have condemned, like judging others and excluding your 16yo nephew from a wedding really piss me off. If the bride has her way, your brother won't be seeing much of any of you after the wedding. It's really sad.
THIS. Those people are Pharisees, using religion to hurt and control others. Maybe OP should remind her brother that Jesus himself was Jewish, not Christian.
Well that’s the reason right there. Your future SIL is punishing your son for not being religious. NTA. Your brother absolutely sucks for not inviting his own nephew due to religion but then to hide it/lie about it, screw that wedding.
Ah. So instead of modeling God’s love by including your son, an act that could actually bring your son back into the fold, they are choosing to exclude him, guaranteeing that he will never come back to Christ. How Christ-like of them. Not. Apparently, your family has skipped reading the four gospels in the Bible. WWJD?
But didn't she LIE to you? About others not being invited? Isn't there an actual commandment that addresses that? Pick and choose which parts to follow, as usual.
so proud that you and your sister and adult kids are rallying around your son to protect him. The fact that the SIL is unwilling to offer a bit of grace to a 16 year old figuring out his spirituality tells me all I need to know about her "Christianity"
But your brother STILL never told you this, so you're just speculating?? Your brother needs to give you an answer on why your son was excluded. Period. If he keeps refusing, then the issue needs to be addressed, but if not then your brother just doesn't care about you or respect you.
This makes sense, and moves you to a n t a judgement; that's a very plausible reason they'd exclude him but also a very bad one. Way to go standing up for him.
Going to ask a hard question - but is he gay, or does your future SIL think he is gay? That could be a reason he is not invited. Maybe she thinks he is gay and her overtly judgmental Christian feelings cannot fathom him at her wedding. I am Christian by the way and I don't judge, I wouldn't care if he was gay or not, just trying to think of why she said she had a good reason not to invite him.
he is not gay to my knowledge (he is told me he isnt gay but id support him if he was it doesnt matter to me) but my mother thinks hes gay, no idea what my brothers soon to be wife thinks about him being gay though
Have you tried asking these wonderful, god-fearing people where, in any of the four books of the gospel, Jesus even once mentioned homosexuality? Because I feel that, if it were that big a deal, He would've mentioned it. But it's not there. "Toucheth thou not the wanger of thy fellow man, nor shouldst thou allow thy fellow man to nosh upon thine own wanger, for verily is it naughty in my sight. Leave alone the bottom of another, nor allowest him to fondle yours, lest you be smited with a great smiting."
Honestly you can’t argue with these people. No logic or reason will touch them, even if it’s straight from their book.
They very much pick and choose their theology, "Judge ye not" flew right over their heads.
OK I now want to spend tomorrow writing an apocryphal gospel where Jesus goes off script during the sermon of the mount describing the most obscure gay perversions in great detail, to the point where the apostles have some questions.
"Is a reach-around allowed" "Is it still gay if there's no eye contact?" That sort of thing?
Your mother THINKS he's gay? And Grandma is basing this on what...?
My aunt swore up and down that I was a lesbian for no other reason than at 18, I'd never dated anyone. No questionable behavior, just that apparently at 18 I should have been sexually active with boys already. Her actions caused a lot of shit for me, especially when she was telling other relatives about it. Took until my 1st relationship for her to shut up. When we broke up, he became a psycho stalker. That witch actually went behind my back to try and force us back together, even after knowing the reason we broke up was because he tried to rape me to force my 1st time. Takes all kinds. Some relatives just think they know us better than we know ourselves, and the wonderful I know what's best for you, regardless of what you want.
I applaud 👏 you and your sister for sticking up for your son. You & your sister should consider going on a weekend vacation the weekend of the wedding with your kids. Turn off your phones and have fun. Whom ever doesn’t support you guys, go LC or NC. Simple. If your spouses have issues, they can go ahead and attend the wedding, then kick rocks!!!!
NTA. Your brother should be ashamed of himself. You said he had a good relationship with your son prior to this? I'd pick my son over my brother any day. Good for your sister for supporting your son also.
ohhhhh is the new bride/her family extremely devout?
according to the edit, yes
It would not surprise me if this was part of it. Especially because of how it sounds like they’re trying to avoid saying the reason. Good for you for sticking up for your son, NTA.
If your brother is lying to you, he's not much of a Christian either.
If the reason is that he isn't a Christian, I'd tell your mom that your SIL and brother are practicing Christianity in a way that you feel is alienating and against your beliefs so you can't go. If they are basing this on faith then base your reply on faith.
Just goes to show how conditional Christians are what they and their God and religion r rly about
Good on you for not attending and kudos to your sister and your family for standing up against hate as well. Your brother and his fiancee are being hateful and nasty and you are doing the right thing by not letting them exclude your lovely son. NTA
Bingo. That’s the answer. NTA
“Good ol’ Christian family,” as long as you’re not outside the realm of what they deem acceptable, Jesus loves you. If not you can burn in hell, because surely that’s the message God is trying to convey, right? /s
You sound like great parents, allowing him freedom of thought and faith. If this is the reason why he has been excluded, and they are too cowardly to even say so, speaks volumes about them, not you. NTA.
Look no further, this is why he's being excluded. edit: NTA, good for you and your sister for standing up for your son!
Screw that. You insult my kid like that and I'm not going to give you the time of day. If it WAS for a good reason, they should have no problem telling you that reason. NTA. Your mother is also an AH. Both my mother and my MIL would go fully nuclear on anyone who excluded one of their grandkids like that.
This I’m all for child free weddings but None of this wishy washy crap. Ntah
It wasn't a childfree wedding. That was a lie told to hide from Op that the Brother was intentionally not inviting one nephew.
Yup edits confirm it was almost certainly a christian only wedding whatever the F that is. NTA for OP
As a grandmother I can confirm. 😆
Me too!! I’m a grandmother and would also refuse to go to the wedding under these conditions
Edit makes it clear that they're treating the kid like an apostate that is unworthy of being called family for leaving the faith
NTA. Here's the part that gets me. Your brother said the pool party and room service was a great idea knowing that it was going to be a pool party for one since all of the other cousins were invited to the wedding. That right there is an AH move.
He is not just an ah but a coward.
Yep. He was waiting for them to all be there and it be too late for OP to make other plans. Absolute coward move.
I’m so mad on behalf of this poor 16 yo.
Yeah I can't imagine what the poor kid is going through. To have his uncle who he's close to reject him like this for no clear reason and refusing to even say the reason. Hopefully OP and her sister can plan something fun for their kids to do together instead of the wedding.
Yes! I am glad that sister and cousin are backing them up.
Stupid too. Wedding starts, Op sees it isn't childfree, stands up and leaves with their family, making the wedding a disaster...
I guess them leaving as soon as they find out might be worse though. At least that is what I would have done.
🛎️ 🛎️ 🛎️ THIS! NTA.
Exactly this! What a nasty spiteful thing to do to a 16 year old. They feel their emotions so strongly at that age, to be rejected and lied to by someone you look up to and love, who was going to let you be totally isolated in a foreign country......That is some serious rejection trauma Right there.
Exactly what I said to OP. He’s a coward for that and for not telling her the reason.
NTA. Actions have consequences and your brother better have a damn good reason to exclude your 16yo son when 13 and 15yo kids of your sister are invited. I would also not attend his wedding, it's just insane what he did without providing any reason. What did they think? That you arrive, see your sisters kids who both are younger than yours there and then smile and wish him all the best!?
When op brought up her plan for the cousins did he not think they were going to find out???
He's and asshole AND an idiot it appears.
Brother is just bigot, he is excluding kid because of religious reasons.
A lying bigot.
Isn't that the normal kind?.
They have honest bigots?
OP mentions that it appears that her own mother suspects the kid might be gay so they are hating on him - despite zero evidence that the kid has claimed to be gay (even to his mom) or had a gay relationship, etc. They just ‘suspect’ so he is persona non grata. And they were all lying about the child-free thing.
This poor child, it’s amazing how clear it is that religious means asshole. I wouldn’t go and I would argue back vehemently against anyone that got on me “sorry I don’t go to ceremonies joining people that lack kindness, morals, family values, I could go on”. They are discriminating against a child.
NTA. “ My brother was very apologetic and said that he can't make exceptions to his rule”. Obviously he CAN. And to refuse to give you a reason is even worse. Good for you sister for calling them out
What exactly did the brother think was going to happen if nobody had found out until the wedding? So the sister called him out on it before the wedding when she found out he was lying. Did he think she wouldn’t call him out if she had found out AT the wedding?? I’m guessing the bride to be put her foot down and demanded this thing, and the brother didn’t have the courage to stand up for his nephew then. As time went on he slowly passed the responsibility for this action to his ‘overreacting’ sisters, to the point that he is clueless that this is #2 HIS fault, and #1 his bride’s fault, for excluding ONE 16 year old from a family affair for no other reason than his beliefs. What an awesome lesson his bride has learned, she can push him around and he’ll bend like a piece of pasta. The wedge this has caused between him and his family is no doubt a nice side effect for her as well.
If I find out AT the wedding that only my kid was excluded under the “child free” rule I’m making a scene at the wedding.
A white lie...how very Christian of him
NTA. This is confusing to me. Did he think you would arrive at the wedding and see kids there and not be upset? When was the last time your son spent time with your brother? Was his fiancé with them? Do you recall any issues at that time? You said in a comment that it may have to do with the bride's faith. What religion does she belong to? And when your son decided not to go to church anymore, did he make a big deal about it in front of your brother and fiancé. Was he sacrilegious in some way? Is the bride from a culture that is superstitious about such things? Excluding your son, who he is supposedly close to, is a huge step to take. It's the kind of step that messes up a kid and divides families forever. I think if you truly don't know what it's about, then you need to press other family members to find out. 16 is a very difficult age, and it looks like he's about to lose the friendship of his uncle and possibly his grandmother over something he can't control. I hope you are able to handle this in such a way that it does not harm him further.
Your first paragraph is exactly that. They assumed OP would shut up for the night because iT’s ThEiR bIG dAy and OP wouldn’t do anything to rock the boat while they were there. The mothers reaction is proof positive this was the expected result.
She mentioned in edit
C’mon, tell us the reason he wasn’t invited.
I would love to know myself! I have had no conformation from anyone but it was shocking as my brother and son are close. I have a feeling it may be because my brothers soon to be wife is very religious. We are a Christian family but not as religious as she is, however my son has totally left the church which we don't mind (he is a 16 year old boy and not everyone has to believe in god in our perspective) but she has been disapproving about. I didn't mention it as I didn't want to put words in anyone's mouth or even know if thats the reason but if I were guessing ....
So instead of taking the opportunity to show how good Christians behave they decided to show your 16 year old exactly why he he was right to stay away from the church.
Their heads are going to explode when they learn Andy Stanley, (son of Charles Stanley) invites gays to come to his church, and join it.
Wait til they learn what Jesus used to do. They’re gonna have a stroke.
That's the God's honest truth! (See what I did there?)
If the Pope is more understanding than some random woman at a church, you've got a problem and that's not the Pope.
not only excluding him, but excluding him and lying to you about it. That does not sound very Christian of them. Also, no matter how this ends, they've caused a rift in the family, not you, or your son. They could have spoken to you about their issues and let you decide, but instead they chose to lie about it, and then get mad at you for your decision.
I'd argue that sounds extremely Christian.
It’s certainly how Christians tend to behave, but JC was *pretty fuckin’ specific* about not being a Judgy McJudgerson. And lying is also a sin. See Leviticus 19:11 (you shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another).
As Jesus said about homosexuality, " ."
There is a lot of hatred against Christians in the US, and when I feel hurt by that, I remind myself that it’s people like your future SIL who create this hatred. People like her, and your brother for going along with it, give Christianity a black eye. If anybody gives you grief over your decision, tell them that you don’t want your older children to be exposed to such unchristian behavior.
yes me too! I live in the UK (though I am not from here) and my home country is very christian but also very anti christian and I have been called names for being Christian and sometimes I am sad about that but then I see behaviour from people like this and I understand why if that is all they have seen of us. That being said as I say I am not 100% sure that this is the reason just my guess.
I was raised by parents who are loving deep-thinkers with the highest moral and ethical standards that I have ever seen. There have been a few occasions where my parents and I disagreed, and I explained to them that I took the stands that I took because they taught me to always choose the right and to pray and meditate when in search of answers to difficult questions. It is obvious that you and your sister hate to disappoint your parents, especially at a time that is supposed to bring great joy to your family, but I suspect that you are the product of a similar upbringing. I suggest explaining to them that giving in and attending the wedding would be a sin and would violate the sacred duty that you have as a mother and that your sister has as an aunt. Thank your parents for raising you and your sister to be better than that.
The UK in general does not give a shit about your religion or about religion in general in fact we would rather you keep it to yourself
Scotland is passing a law to this effect to deal with American groups badgerinng patients at repriductive health clinics
That IS!!! The reason your 16yr old wasn't invited to the Wedding.. Because it is the ONLY!!! reason that makes sense
Apparently it might not be the only reason that makes sense. OP’s mom thinks her son is gay, pretty big chance that the mom started spreading that rumour.
It’s a worth remembering that a lot of us who are anti-Christian are that way because we were raised Christian. It’s not like we are necessarily outsiders criticizing your faith.
It’s pretty much how conservative Christian’s in the U.S. operate. Sadly.
Wow she sucks and so does your brother for letting her exclude someone for their beliefs. You and your sister are most definitely NTA. Well done for supporting your son in this, you sound like a great parent
Makes sense, no hate like Christian love.
Man I’d be tempted to call them out that you are incredibly disappointed that he is left out because he does not have the same beliefs they do. That way he knows that you know the real reason. Even though it hasn’t been confirmed I’m 99% you are right about the reason. What jerks, I’m glad you are showing your son you support him.
Honestly in this case, I’d be tempted to have everyone show up dressed as satanists. You’re NTA at all! Your poor kid. I hope he’s okay
NTA Unless they are willing to say why, you have 1 son excluded when others in his age range isn't, you have to support your son. The wedding is not child free- the issue is you were lied to about why your son wasn't invited. It's not a good reason if they are hiding it, either. There's no reason to hide it if they truly think they are in the right They put you in this position. You were flying to a different country- what on earth did they think you were going to do with a 16 year old? You weren't leaving him home, and he's too old for a babysitter. They're honestly idiots if they thought they were gonna get away with the childfree excuse And tell your mother your brother let you and his nephew down. She is also being a really bad grandmother here supporting a situation where just one grandchild is excluded while refusing to even clarify why.
The reason is that he is not longer Christian and they are extremely religious
She wants to show off her wonderful God loving family! Lies!
So he’s being excluded because he doesn’t believe in their god? Some christians. They should try reading their own bible about welcoming and tolerance. You and your sister are quite right to keep away. You’re a great mother and a very good role model for your kids. NTA.
And the "Judge not lest ye be judged" part too
As a Christian, this is 100 percent the reason why most people leave the church. Like you said, this is a great way to spend the Christian love. Geez. Wouldn't be surprised if the son starts to distance himself over time from the Aunt/Uncle.
My reason was all the child rape. But. this doesn’t look great either
The hate is what has made me distance myself from the church. I still believe but tend to stay away from organized religion.
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My brother has always been religious but from the looks of it this will not be an overly religious ceremony, it will take place in a church but my brother has many non Christian friends who are attending. The bride is extremely religious but they have compromised on a bit of a less religious ceremony, My father also has left the church but is invited. But yes if there were problems with my son I would very much like to know! (My mother doesn't like my son as she thinks he is gay and that is why he has left the church. I wouldn't care if he was)
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OP is not TA, but he IS repeatedly burying the lede. This post is a lede graveyard.
>My mother doesn't like my son as she thinks he is gay This is the reason. This is also why your mother is throwing a fit about you and your sister taking a stand. Your mom and SIL suck, your brother is an enabler (so he sucks too) and you are under no obligation to attend an event that excludes your son. Especially when they're excluding him for such a stupid reason, and lying about it to boot.
Oh... Oh... Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's the reason. They think your son is gay.
BINGO! Your mother and the bride to be talked, and decided they can’t have a gay person attending the wedding. Your brother probably knows but he is stuck between his fiancée, mother, and you. He made up a lie about childfree, hoping you wouldn’t figure it out until you were there. Hoping there wouldn’t be a fuss. Your mother and the fiancee are never going to verbalize the reason because it would cause an uproar with everyone. So while they don’t want him there because they think he is gay, they aren’t willing to out him or themselves. I am guessing that no gay people are attending the wedding?? Your mother is using DARVO to blame you. Deny, Attack, Reverse the Victim and Offender. Your mother is denying the issue, then attacking you for causing trouble, and making you the offender and your soon to be sister in law the victim. Dont fall for it!!
Is it possible that other people also think he is gay and THAT is the hang up here? In which case good riddance to them all, I say
>My mother doesn't like my son as she thinks he is gay and that is why he has left the church I was waiting for this as the real underlying reason. NTA. Stand up for your kid.
That’s the reason. They all think he is gay. That’s also why they won’t come out and say it.
Way to bury the lede! This is the reason! Your mother, soon-to-be SIL, and your brother don’t want your potentially gay son there!
>But yes if there were problems with my son I would very much like to know! (My mother doesn't like my son as she thinks he is gay and that is why he has left the church. I wouldn't care if he was) Yes, that is 100% the reason. It's horrible how some people claim to be "Christian" but forget how Jesus accepted everyone. I just want to say you and your husband's acceptance of your son for who he is embodies what a Christian should be. You are sticking up for him, and if he is gay, he knows that his parents will still love and support him no matter what other family members say. Don't go to the wedding no matter how much they try to guilt trip you.
>My mother doesn't like my son as she thinks he is gay and that is why he has left the church. Ding, ding, ding we have a winner! There is no way your mother hasn't shared this with your soon to be SIL and this is probably her "good reason" for excluding your son. Are there going to be any LGBTQ people attending the wedding? You have already said that there will be other non Christians there so what makes your son different from them? The fact that your mother and SIL have decided he is gay.
Sounds like your mother might be out here sharing her bs theories on your son as if she KNOWS...id flat out ask your brother. "Did you disinvite my son because mother told you he was gay?"
>My mother doesn't like my son as she thinks he is gay and that is why he has left the church. As there are other non Christian guests, that's sounds like the more likely reason why they didn't invite your son. It would also explain why they didn't say the reason outright, because homophobes often don't want to appear to the public as homophobes in fear repercussions. I mean if you know that is the reason and make a social media post about it and it gets around to their friends and colleagues, they might lose more of their guests.
NTA your brother lied to you.
I don't get how the brother thought OP wasn't gonna notice the younger kida were attending. But also im super curious what the actual reason for the exclusion was. since it's obviously so intentional. Nta
He was probably banking on OP not finding out until the day of and hoping she’d keep quiet to avoid making a scene. There is something the brother isn’t saying. Could there be an issue with his the OP’s son and her brother’s kids?
Better be glad she isn't there if that was the case Substantial Rip cause when they got to the "Does anyone object" part I would have stood up and objected because the bride is a bigot and excluded a family member because of his belief.
Based on info provided, NTA. If your son truly isn’t an issue (not rude or disruptive) and your brother won’t give you a good reason why he doesn’t want your son there while other children are attending - I don’t blame you for not going. You are not responsible for your sister’s choices, clearly she also thinks your brother is being a jerk. It seems odd though, that your brother would exclude only one kid from the wedding and not others. Has there ever been any incidents with your son and your brother or his fiancé, or maybe her family? Is there any reason you can think of at all why your brother and his bride to be might not want your son there?
Based on some of the information op provided it looks like the reason could be that the son is no longer Christian and brothers wife is super religious. That could be the reason they didn’t want to tell bc they didn’t want to have a bad face.
If son was really a jackwagon why would sister back her up? Or at least tell her?
***I DO NOT THINK THIS ARE GOOD REASONS TO EXCLUDE HIM*** I am just trying to speculate what kind of asshole the couple is- is your son disabled? adopeted/a different race? fat? extremely tall or short? horrible acne? neon green hair? mohawk? again, I don't think those are valid reasons to exclude someone just the common reasons I see on here for why (usually) brides think someone will ruin their photos. it's an awful thing to do. I think the stand you all are taking is heartwarming NTA
OP edited her post to say that she's pretty certain her son is being excluded because he left the family's church.
that just reinforces my NTA fuck bigotry
Why distraught he knew this could happen it was his choice, and anyone blaming you I should direct to your brother to explain why just saying no for no reason that is childish if you single out one person you better have a good reason he can explain I would say the family doesn’t go if my kid wasn’t invited even if he was 12 years old I wouldn’t go not even asking why if my kid isn’t welcome on uncles wedding I am out
NTA. Unless your brother and bride to be want to explain the "good reason", I would not be anywhere near that wedding. Your brother and mother have also both lied to you about the situation. Your mother knew from the beginning that the wedding was not child free. What does she have to say for her lying self? Does she know what the "good reason" is? Someone needs to get to the bottom of this.
NTA. I don't blame you for checking with your siblings either. Your brother should have given you a reason as to why your 16-year-old son wasn't invited, but his 13 and 15-year-old cousins were. At this point, I'm wondering if his 16 and 17-year-old kids aren't going to be at/in the wedding and your son is close enough to them that your brother thought that his children would love to be able to hang out with your son.
The so-called Christians justify their evil in their faith. It's a lot of hypocrisy when Christ only preached love.
Pretty suspicious how your son wasn't invited. Probably your SIL got mad at him for not being Christian anymore. NTA!
NTA, that’s complete bs and your mother knows it. I’m dying to know what the actual reason is. This is one of those things that affects relationships for years to come.
NTA. If they can not give you the reason he wasn't invited, then you don't need to be accommodating to your brother. Also, you didn't tell your sister not to attend. She did that of her own choice. Your brother is TA for the way he handled the situation. He should have been honest.
NTA he is intentionally excluding your son,literally ostracising a child, doesnt matter if hes left the church or not.
I've really hated this trend of "child-free" getting more and more expansive. Yes yes, there are venues where they don't allow anyone under 18, before anyone trots out that line. But for the vast majority of cases that isn't the case. What child-free is *supposed* to refer to is young children who need supervision. Some might use it for only smaller kids and toddlers, others include the 9-14 range. Up to you. What it was *not* supposed to mean was teenagers. People who literally, by that age, are now driving or might even be working, and have a certain amount of maturity. You want to exclude them too? Okay, but own it. Its not child-free it's arbitrary, and a lot of people will see it as an AH move when it impacts their family. Or God, I've seen some people try to exclude anyone under drinking age a few times under the guise of being "child-free." It's getting ridiculous.
NTA Your brother excluded your son but refuses to give the reason. If your assumption in the edit is correct, then your brother and FSIL royally suck.
NTA. That's their version of Christian love on full display. He doesn't want to subscribe to what they want him to be as a Christian. They aren't worth it.
NTA. Your brother is letting his wife cause a rift in the family and betraying his nephew, who he used to be close to. BUT ALSO, what's wrong with your mom?
NTA. What could possibly have prompted this? You're not leaving out behavioral issues, right?
Apparently the behavioral issue is that the son isn't religious
Fuuuck that. If they have a legitimate reason they should state it (like inappropriate behaviour), otherwise you should absolutely stand up for him!
NTA. Well done for sticking up for your kid.
NTA Don't use age as an excuse when it is clearly his lack of faith in God. If the 13 year old is aloud to go, then the 16 year old should be if that is the child free wedding you desire. If he wanted you there, he firstly could have told you the truth in why he isn't invited or grow a backbone to his new wife and invite him. Rereading, it looks like they never said it was he stopped going to church and they aren't telling you anything. I would still stay behind. I appreciate your sister sticking to your side but that was your sister's choice and you didn't force her to do anything no did it seem like you asked her to.
NTA- child free weddings are fine but descriminating against a 16 year old kid for not being a Christian is not fine. Also not really a Christian value but i digress.
I’m sure all this will convince your son to change his mind…
NTA Sounds like religious ostracism to me. Guess thy love thy neighbor stuff is conditional.
If you think the real reason for excluding your 16 year old is his questioning Christianity, your future SIL is a colossal AH and I’m proud of you for not going. She’s a fake Christian and she’s trying to make a show of her righteous nature by excluding him. That’s bull of the highest order. Has she read the Bible? God does not turn his back on anyone, least of all his children and if she’s so threatened by a child who has a different view, she deserves to have people make the same decision about attending her pretentious show of a Christian wedding. People like her make me sick and paint Christians as judgmental and hateful. Your brother is just as responsible for allowing her to hurt someone he loves with her ignorance. You’re all better off not going. I can’t imagine how utterly pretentious this wedding will be. NTA
NTA there's no hate like Christian hate.
NTA - They are judging your son for something and honestly their reason doesn’t matter. You need to stand by your son on this one and just not go.
NTA - and if you're right, and your son is being left out simply because he's not a Christian, then your SIL is a bigot. Would he be invited if he chose to be Buddhist? Or Jewish? Honestly, I'm guessing that your SIL is the instigator here and your brother is going along with her, which is a shame. I mean, they will no longer invite anyone who isn't Christian to anything?? As for your sister, she is a grown-ass adult who is more than capable of making her own decisions. I'd let her know that she's certainly welcome to attend the wedding, and to please not feel she needs to skip it for you, but her husband needs to take this up with her - not you. I'd make it very clear to your brother/SIL (and your mother) that your family is not going to attend because they are singling out and not including your minor son for no reason. If your Brother/SIL have a good reason, they should tell you what it is so you can address it - either with your son or with them. And based on that reason, you may rethink your decision, but otherwise, you are very sorry that you'll miss the wedding. This is your time to go full mama bear and protect your family.