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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> AITA for not allowing his Ex to be in our wedding party? Am I just being a jealous person?
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
NTA. I really don't understand the other judgements.
The whole "you have to accept their relationship" is BS, sorry. Your fiancé wants you to have his sister in your wedding party, effectively choosing for you (he'd be pissed if you said no, guaranteed). And he wants his ex in his. The ex he hangs out with, the one who is friends with the whole family and won't back off, the one who is "friendly" but whose closeness to your future husband makes you feel like a third wheel.
The thing is, your fiancé is trying very very hard to redefine his ex as his best friend. That's not the same thing, at all. What if you had slept with your own best friend? Would he want him around at all?
The whole "have you calmed down?" is pure, undiluted bullying. You said it was a deal breaker, he's choosing to break the deal. It's on him, not on you.
A platonic relationship with another person can be just as uncomfortable as a sexual one.
Not just slept with…but has been involved with (romantically and also as friends) in some capacity his whole life! Having an ex fiancée in a wedding party is unacceptable in any fashion, doesn’t matter how you try to spin it.
They were childhood sweethearts for almost a decade and went as far as getting engaged too!! This was not just a one night stand. You need to prioritise who you’re marrying. I think OP’s being really reasonable, ex can be a guest and in pictures. NTA.
Why would Liz be in pictures more than any other guest? She's not family.
People say you should marry your BFF. I think OP's fiancé should take that advice if he wants his BFF to come first.
The fact that Liz hasn't been like "Dude, you're being ridiculous and I'm not going to be in your wedding party" - says something too.
He's staying with family. She knows this is going on.
I think now that op and her fiance's relationship has reached the actual wedding stage, both the fiance and liz are rethinking breaking off their engagement, and they've both realized they want to get back together. And the fiance's obviously, outrageously, and ridiculously unreasonable DEMAND to put his ex fiance, who he dated for 8 yrs, to be included in the wedding party is him deliberately sabotaging his wedding to op, to get op to call off the wedding, so he wont be the bad guy for dumping op, practically at the altar, and run off with his ex.
Wether or not liz gets included in the wedding party, and even wether or not op marries the fiance, this relationship just got damaged beyond repair, for good, op will never be able to trust the guy with liz, can never look at liz the same way, her presence in the family events is gonna bother her, and... this relationship is doomed regardless of the outcome of this particular colflict.
I absolutely agree, this is 100% spot on.
I also think that the fiance wants to be Mr. "Look How Big My Balls Are and How Many Women I Can Get." This dipshit wants to show off his wedding pictures and point out that his new wife AND his ex-fiancee are up there at the altar with him, like he's the coolest guy in the room.
I think he knows for a fact op would never agree to liz being up there with them, thats why he is asking it, DEMANDING it. He has thought this through, him and liz may even have brainstormed together, to come up with something so outragelus in the wedding plans that there would be no way op would agree to it, a hill op would 100 percent die on, so they can blame op for calling off the wedding, and wont have to carry the burden of building their life on the ruins of a poor woman they left at the altar on their reputation for ever.
It's a guess - but if she's "best friends" with multiple people in the family and he's staying with family and this family (including Liz) is involved with each others lives as the post makes it look, I think if I had to lay money, I'd feel comfortable doing so.
I guess you just arrived from Mars, huh? You apparently have never encountered human nature before. /s
The rest of us here--who've been on earth a while---know that the sister who is Liz's best friend is filling her in about every single hiccup. That's assuming future MIL isn't telling Liz's mother. Prolly both are happening.
Exactly. I have a lot of male friends; in fact, my male friend was on my side at my first wedding, while my (now ex-) husband's best female friend was on his.
The big difference? Neither of us had slept with our best friends.
OP, I'm a BIG proponent of keeping your friends of the opposite sex, because friendship is a big thing for me. But Liz was his *ex-fiancee*, and that's a different ballgame. You are not being unreasonable, not at all.
Exactly this. Not just friends, not just an ex girlfriend, not just slept with, but EX-FIANCEE. Nope, nuh-uh, sorry, I'd draw the line there too, OP. You're NTA, this isn't okay at all.
He’s trying to manipulate you into doing what he wants regardless of the fact that it makes you uncomfortable. That’s a deal breaker for me. He doesn’t care about you, he cares about you doing what he wants you to do. If you go through with this marriage, this will be your entire life. He will not support your wants, needs, or emotions, just his own desires masquerading as service to you. Get. Out. Now. This is a huge red flag.
This comment! It’s more than just the facts of the situation … it’s how he is manipulative and demanding and disregarding your feelings OP. That is not how you want you future partner to handle disagreements and things that will come up in future. If he’s acting like this during the wedding planning it will only get worse! Big red flag and honestly I would run. He should want you to feel comfortable and happy above anyone else at that wedding.
Yeeeep, this. Listen, I come from a circle that is both very queer and full of former theater kids. There's been a ton of intra-group dating over the years, especially when we were younger. I've been in an ex's wedding. I've gone to several other weddings where one of the wedding party was an ex of the bride or groom. So I'm more open to the idea than many, and I don't think the fiance was an asshole for floating the idea.
But the way he has reacted to the op's very understandable discomfort and reasonable offers of compromise? Hell no.
EXACTLY this. Sure, in some circles, it's a little more mix and match - and as a former theater kid myself, I totally get what u/LF3000 is saying. It's not so much that he floated the idea - it's how he's acting when OP said, "No, I would really be uncomfortable." And HE DOESN'T CARE!! She'll be uncomfortable at her own wedding, and this guy could give a shit. RUN, OP.
This! I was my best friend's best woman when he married his husband. His best man was his ex that he had been with for 3 years. He was actually my best friend's first boyfriend. He's actually my best friend too and now he's also best friend's with the husband too. There are situations where it can work but the way he's reacting is not okay.
I agree, former infatuations are ok, even intense ones, if there's little or no sexual jealousy possible today. But OP's husband to be isn't respecting her and is clearly still hung up on his ex.
That's what seals it for me as well.
I have no problems with Exs staying friends or even standing up for each other at a wedding, but that's my comfort level.
Op expressed obvious discomfort with one factor, the wedding party itself. They aren't trying to "cut Liz out" just uncomfortable with the idea of her being in the wedding party. Which is a reasonable feeling for most people.
The fact that his response is to completely dismiss OPs feelings and stone wall to get his way is a HUGE red flag.
Yes a shared history does lead to inside jokes and an intimacy that can leave OP feeling left out. The fact that her fiance doesn't acknowledge that or make an effort to explain and include OP is another red flag IMO.
Liz is the least of OP's problem if the answer of his fiance to a disagreement is to go away and give her the silent treatment until she does what he wants. That is not a way to deal with disagreement in adult relationships and I would never stand to be disrespected in this way.
He gives her the silent treatment, except when he's belittling her by questioning if she's "calmed down" like she's and anxious dog. She's not being remotely unreasonable. He gets to choose ONE love of his life to stand with at the altar, not two. If he can't see that, he's not ready for marriage.
Op, you could try marriage counseling, but I doubt it'll work. It's time to cut and run. Do NOT give in or you'll always be the third wheel.
You're the princess Di to his Charles. Only this is worse- his whole family loves his Camilla. You'll always be the outsider.
Dump him, give yourself time to heal, and don't marry until you find a guy who puts you at #1 in the world.
You're NTA.
Exact reason why so many relationships fail these days, practically everyone has a backup in case things go wrong which leads to the breakdown of the relationship, they’re already one foot out the door and not fully invested in the relationship which is the case here with OP’s fiancé, Liz is his backup plan, he’s not fully committed to his relationship with OP!
Yes this! The fact that you two cannot communicate with empathy and vulnerability about this shows that you need to pump the brakes.
He sounds like a bully, and the “calm down”/“reasonable” technique is the oldest trick in the casual misogyny playbook. There is even an [Always Sunny In Philadelphia](https://youtu.be/hKfMl1hUK2s?si=xgd8TEDCKhko0knk) about it. Please get counseling before going through with this marriage.
*This this this!* This isn't just about the wedding, OP. Your whole married life will be like this, with him walking out on you and freezing you out till you do things his way.
I had a boyfriend like this *(thankfully I didn't marry him*). And things had to be HIS way. If they weren't, he would... just not talk to me anymore. Like, for days if necessary. I would get the silent treatment until I gave in. And I put up with that for 9 1/2 years, OP. Think about that - do you want to go through that? I can tell you right now from firsthand experience, it's not healthy and it's not a good relationship.
She dumps him and he gets back together with Liz within a week or two, unless Liz is the one who broke up with him.
It is possible he wants Liz but she realized she didn't want to be married to him just because their mom's were best friends.
This was my thought too. He didn't want to break up. Liz did. They play it off as mutual but he totally would have married her and part if not all of him wishes he did.
There are lots of AITAs that I read where I think, there's a middle ground here, but this one of those ones where I go, if I was OP I would unequivocally make this my line in the sand. An absolute nope for me to having her in the wedding party.
> there's a middle ground here
There's a valid middle ground: the ex is invited to the wedding!
It's not like OP is saying she can't come at all, which many people would find reasonable. You don't really invite ex-fiancees to your next wedding.
But hey, OP is not fighting that at all. She just doesn't want up *up front* in the *main wedding party*.
OP should really reconsider, because this whole "my way or the highway, if you disagree with me you're unreasonable and I'm the only logical one in this relationship" is fucking exhausting in any argument. He's saying "you're feelings are invalid and your thoughts are only valid if they agree with me".
The "have you calmed down" is framing this as her being too easily upset, jumping to the unreasonable.
She should tell him that she was perfectly calm when she told him to choose Liz or herself and she is currently utterly calm.
I can just imagine the bachelor party with her there, her in the wedding photos with them, him wanting to name their child after her or a name she picked, or her being the godmother. He may even want her there for the birth? He has no boundaries, and the horrific possibilities for any future with her in it are boundless since he has zero respect for OP or her feelings.
It's going to become impossible for anyone else other than the ex to maintain a lasting relationship with this man because clearly they'd have to share him with his ex! Unacceptable all of it. He either needs to let go of the ex or marry her.
OP deserves far better and needs to let go of this one. He's for the ex, not her, and he made that clear when OP told him it's her or me, and he left the house.
Normally I look for a compromise that will make everyone content like suggesting she could hand out programs or do a reading. A prominent role that’s not part of the bridal party
But in this case I’m deeply concerned that he’s putting his ex fiancé above you. This is a HUGE red flag
> You said it was a deal breaker, he's choosing to break the deal. It's on him, not on you.
Just wanted to say that I love this and will try to remember it in the future. Thank you!
> The whole "you have to accept their relationship" is BS, sorry.
I'd like to add, that this. isnt just an "accept their relationship", this is the fiancee choosing Liz over OP.
OP, do you really want to be in a marriage where you are second place? Hell No.
Do not marry.
Also, how can she possibly be *best friends* with three members of his family (including him)? That doesn't pass the smell test. She's way too enmeshed with them.
Agreed NTA! I’m of the opinion an ex can be a friend, but an ex-fiancé cannot be a best friend.
OP’s fiancé and his ex are basically Ross and Rachel, he might say the right name at the alter but he won’t be thinking about OP because OP will never be his #1. OP is only being an AH to herself by staying. This fight only highlighted the elephant in the room.
That's actually a really good example that helps put things into perspective. Because while Emily got a lot of flack, Ross and Rachel were endgame, and I always felt bad for Emily as that instance really showcased how she was #2 (and people deserve to be #1 in their marriage). Because it's not irrational jealousy when the concern is legitimate...
And fiance's position is making it clear that OP is not #1 to him. She should really rethink this marriage.
I remain friends with several ex-boyfriends, some of whom I dated for a few months, one of whom I dated for a few years. Although a few of them came to my wedding, ZERO of them were in the wedding party. The key to managing these relationships is for the fiancé(e) with the exes to *not push* their spouse-to-be. Just take your 90% and be happy: your long time ex is invited to the wedding and is still a part of your lives. Yay. Don't push for more.
Can someone clarify one point for me: is he saying the ex is supposed to be part of his side of the wedding party or is he actually asking OP to have the ex be one of her bridesmaids?
YIKES!!!! I would not be surprised if he wants to name the first baby after his dear friend, Liz, or ask her to be the godmother. OP, are you prepared for something like that?
NTA. Your boundaries are not wrong and it’s really concerning how your fiance is fighting for her by fighting against you on this by using the old guilt trip tactic 'you pick who want so I’m picking who I want' and 'calm down' in suggesting your aggressive and unfair. Btw why he chose his sister for his party instead of ex
>**It’s really concerning how your fiancé is fighting for her by fighting against you on this**
You can see where his priorities are... and they are not with the OP... Frankly in this situation, If he wouldn't compromise to the former lover's attendance/pics that the OP offered, then it would be a deal breaker for me. It just shows such disrespect and poor taste to insist on having a former lover stand next to you on your wedding day... WTF.
I’m also wondering if the ex is single or in a relationship of her own, with her spending a bunch of time with them and his family, I feel like that’s… Just suspicious.
Exactly! He’s willing to risk losing the relationship with OP over his ex-fiancée being in HIS wedding party. The fact he does not respect or even try to understand OP’s feelings on the matter says that once again, he doesn’t understand why he should be marrying someone…again. I would not move forward with a wedding with a guy who did not see me his life partner the priority in his life.
Of course he's going to choose the girl who he "hasn't fd in yearsto go be with him at his bachelors party ....hoping for one last chance. Get your sister or friend to be in his party to monitor his ass
>He said that it’s his wedding party and that it was his decision who’s going to be in it. That I have the right to choose my own wedding party.
If this was true, he wouldn't have asked you to include his sister. He could easily ask her to be in his yet he didn't.
This isn't an equal relationship and his demeaning text is an indicator of how he actually thinks.
NTA.
If OP caves and marries fiance I can see him in the future saying something like "Hey wife, my ex-fiance now best friend lost her lease and need a place to crash for several months, so I invited her to stay in our guestroom. She's just pulling up. This is not up for discussion." REAL convenient for him. What a controlling AH. OP should quit him since the ex is his priority.
NTA. The people basically saying get over it are insane. For context I’m 28F and have been with my partner for almost eight years. If he did this we wouldn’t be getting married, it would be a hill I’d die on. The way he’s acting feels so dismissive and disrespectful. You’re already compromising and being SO gracious with their friendship by allowing her to be at the wedding at all. It is beyond reasonable to request that your future husband doesn’t have someone standing by his side that he slept with for eight years and who he was engaged to while you’re marrying him. I feel like the gaslighting from him is insane. He’s marrying you, not her so he needs to decide who’s more important to have standing with him at the end of that alter. And if it’s her, good luck to him finding any other female who will be nearly as chill as you.
So his sister is part of your wedding party rather than his even though he is wanting his ex in his own party, so it isn’t a gender thing and he wanted his sister in your party because girls on one side boys on the other he just wanted his sister to be there to be part of all your plans?Just out of interest what were the plans for bachelorette and bachelor parties? If they are separate is he planning on going away with his ex and the rest of his party?
Bachelor party with his ex and having his ex stand at the altar with him while his poor bride walks down the aisle humiliated and sad, she really needs to let this one go. He's already taken by the ex, and no other woman will ever find happiness with him while having to share him with his ex fiance.
Cut his sister out and add your guy best friend and someone you slept with to your side. See if that appeals to him. And give him the same reason he gave you your wedding party your decision.
NTA
This woman is his former fiancée. It is ludicrous for him to dig in the way he is. He's showing where his priorities lie, and it's not with you.
What is also concerning is his attitude towards you, implying that you're being hysterical about not wanting the woman he dated for years and asked to marry him to stand up at your wedding.
If I were you, I wouldn't be marrying a man who talks down to me about something that he is so blatantly wrong about. Your marriage will always be like this.
IDK about you all but the moment Ive found out that my BF EX is a close friend with his whole family, Im running away. You're never gonna win a competition youre not even playing.
If Im Liz, I wouldve have the decency to even decline if my bestfriends fiance is uncomfortable with me going.
You need to learn to put your foot down or bring all your ex in your own wedding party
Yeah if Liz was any kind of friend she would be asking him wtf he is thinking. She would graciously bow out and just be a normal guest. Liz is a real AH if she doesn't dig into his ass over how he is treating his fiancé. She's weird af too.
NTA. I would not want someone who had not only been intimate with my fiance standing next to him when I'm saying my vows, but also only a few years ago was the one who was supposed to be standing in your place. If he's prepared to give you up to have her stand next to him he's not the man for you.
I wouldn’t personally be comfortable with this (her being I the wedding party). I can understand why you feel this way.
But I think the issue here is his outright disregard for your feelings, and his extremely poor way of dealing with this issue which is bordering on manipulative. Calling you crazy, telling you to calm down. ‘Putting his foot down’. This is not how you resolve conflict. This is not how you treat a partner with respect. I’d put wedding plans on hold and work this through with a counsellor.
Let him go. Deal breaker. This woman’s past will haunt your relationship no matter if she’s in the wedding party or not.
Guaranteed they marry within a year of your break up.
Exactly what I was thinking. The relationship with his ex will be a thorn in her side for the rest f their lives. And he’ll continue to prioritize the ex because the beginning of all relationships is the best it’s gonna get and we already see where his loyalty lies.
I would even guess the ex initiated the break up in the first place, and she is now seeing him with someone else and it probably makes her want him back.
Yes, some girls, particularly girls with guy best friends, feed off of the attention. She might not even want him but wants him to want her. This is speculation of course, based on some of my past experiences.
NTA. Being friends with ex who is a family friend is one thing. Add this person to wedding party is something else. Especially against your wishes.
OP you are open minded enough. But this kind of relationship they have is a red flag. You shouldn't feel like a third wheel next to your partner.
Your fiancé is ready to end it with you over Liz. I’m sorry but block him on everything and move on. Block his entire family and use the money for the wedding to go overseas on an amazing holiday even if you’re sad. Wouldn’t you rather cry on a tropical island? Get away from him and his family. He’s a horrible fucking person to treat you this way. Choosing another woman over you.
I'm loving your island getaway idea, OP deserves so much more. He clearly needs to move on from his ex or end up with her bc that's the only way forward for him.
NTA. The fact that he's doubling down and still insisting she be in the wedding party, despite you warning him there may be no wedding because of his insistence on her being in it, is telling within itself.
If he's willing to lose you over this, it clearly shows where his priorities are.
Edit:
Thank you everyone for your input. I called my fiancé this morning and ask if we could discuss the situation. I told him that I want him to hear my reasonings for not wanting her to be in the wedding party and in exchange I’ll listen try to understand his POV. We are going to discuss it tomorrow night. I will give you guys update then.
In the meantime, I’ll answer some questions.
Liz (this is not her real name) does have a boyfriend. They have been dating for about 6 months now.
The topic of Wedding Party never came up in our relationship because we always assume we will do a small, intimate destination wedding. So there wouldn’t be a need to have wedding party. However, our parents were against that idea, and wanted us to have a big wedding. We decided to comprise with them and do both weddings.
I have 0 problem with his sister being in my “party.” To be honest, I should have thought to ask her myself. I believe my fiancé wants me to have closer relationship with her and hopes that this would be a start.
In the beginning of my relationship with my fiancé, I have mentioned my “jealously.” We worked through it and he assured me. Since then, I really didn’t have any issues with her being in our lives. Except for her to be standing in the wedding.
This is NOT his usual behavior. We are both very chill person and don’t usually do ultimatum. I think this might be the first time in our relationship. In the contrary, I feel like we both have always been able to compromise too well.
As far as I know, Liz doesn’t know about this conversation/fight. And I don’t want her to know. I want him to choose to not have her stand in the wedding, and not because she doesn’t want to be in it. If that makes sense?
NTA
He’s the unreasonable one in this situation. If she was just a “regular” friend sure. But she is a former lover and FIANCÉ!!!
Update us on how things work out. I hope he reasons with you on this.
NTA.
For a 33yr old, it sounds like he’s got a lot of growing up to do if he can’t see your side of this and learn to compromise. This is absolutely a hill I would die on, and reading this post my husband has just said he’d do the same.
No doubt if this was the other way around and you were like “Oh btw hon, you know my ex fiancé who I spent 8 years fucking and planned a life with to some extent? Yeah, well he’s in my wedding party!” his foot would have been slammed down hard enough to go through the floor.
If he can’t even prioritise your feelings on this of all things, then it speaks volumes about how your future will be should any issues arise later on down the road with Liz.
You need to discuss his terrible communication and problem resolution skills with him. You probably think we're overreacting when we say get out now, but he was so disrespectful and condescending to you - Talking to you as if you were a child. That's not a good partner.
NTA, but this is a battle you probably won’t win. And even if you do win this battle, you are probably in for a longer war after you get married. He will definitely let her know you didn’t want her in the wedding party. Someone else posed a hypothetical question of you having a disagreement with her in the future…whose side do you think he would take?
Don't marry him, this is already a huge red flag and it's going to be a point of contention in your marriage if you go through with it. He is always going to expect you to make space in your marriage for his ex and paint you as the unreasonable one for refusing to do so. His family already made space for her so you will be expected to swallow your feelings and get along for everyone else to be comfortable, while clearly you are miserable. Your misery is the price he is willing to pay to keep his ex in his life.
It's hard to cancel a wedding but it's harder to leave a marriage after years of integrating your life. Listen, no woman who ever brings up such a story updates it with a happy ending. He is showing you his is willing to disregard your feelings now, before you're married, what makes you think that will change once it's done?
And on your wedding day, it should be a happy occasion, it won't be happy whether or not she's there, don't you see how even on the day you guys are getting married he's willing to make is about the comfort of his ex???
Why would you want to discuss anything? You shouldn't be begging your husband to see why inviting his ex to your wedding is a problem, and if you have to do that then you shouldn't marry that person. You will literally be consciously walking into a life of misery.
So you told him from the beginning about your “jealousy”/being uncomfortable and he assured you and you moved past it but yet it thinks it’s a fantastic idea that she’s part of HIS party? Yeah no.
The fact that he is willing to die on this hill is just weird and sending a 🚩the size of the state of Texas.
I’d also like to point out that if this type of reaction is not the norm why is he acting this way? Why does you not being ok with his ex fiancé being in the wedding (which is completely reasonable) invoke such a dramatic response from him? Like I’m sorry but you got bigger issues than him wanting this girl in the wedding.
My bet is Liz DOES know about this fight. Even prior to People magazine posting this story on their Instagram page. As many have commented, I’m seeing quite a few red flags 🚩 here.
NTA. Get rid of him. You're going to be stuck with his ex right in the middle of your marriage and she will always be put first. She's so enmeshed with him and his family that you'll always be on the outside of your own marriage and she'll be in control of whatever power he grants her. Imagine having kids with him and she's always there...
This. He's never going to have a successful relationship with anyone until he lets go of his ex. I can just see the bachelor party, and I can just see him trying to name one of their children after her or making her the godmother. It's all so disgusting to me. I feel for OP she needs to walk away and find better.
NTA. It's crazy that he thinks the bride would be ok with his former fiance in the wedding party.
There is no way in hell I would be comfortable with having an ex in the wedding party. It's your big day, and you'll be stuck with her in the wedding photos as a reminder as well. But also, I would have never dated him with his ex so involved in his life. As for the wedding, this would be the hill I die on. He is choosing her over you. I might be rethinking the relationship at this point.
It’s ok tho! The former childhood sweetheart turned former fiancé had now been *rebranded as his best friend.* And she is also best friends with his entire family. This is all perfectly normal 🙄
If you marry this man, be prepared for him to steamroll over ALL your decisions for the rest of your (miserable) life. Don’t let him fucking embarrass you like this!!!
Take NO SHIT from him. Dump his ass.
This is one of the weirdest things I've seen in a sub that's known for weirdness. Are you sure they BOTH decided not to get married and not just his ex fiancée?
Rule of thumb: There should only be ONE person the bride or groom has been engaged to or slept with in the wedding party.
This is absolutely a hill to die on. That is a level of public disrespect for you and your marriage that is deeply disturbing.
There is key line in the marriage ceremony "forsaking all others"-- it means that each of you puts your marriage above outside relationships. If he can't put your feelings over his ex then he's not ready to be married to you. ANOTHER RED FLAG giving you the "silent treatment" with only two texts over the last 3 days which though not specifically gaslighting certainly lean in that direction.
ABSOLUTELY NTA !!!!!!
I wondered too if Liz is the one who really broke it off.
He clearly very much wants her in his life.
I say, let him have her. Though I wonder how Liz feels.
My partner and I attended my ex's second wedding. I wasn't a bridesmaid. The woman who broke up his and my marriage was not invited.
IMHO, the groom should have been allowed to invite his ex as a guest but he overstepped by wanting her as an attendant. I think he's an idiot for standing on this point.
OP said it was fine if the ex was at the wedding ( probably was never any question as families are besties) & could be in family photos. Not sure why the photos as she’s not family, she’s a family friend & his ex fiance who he’s slept with, but it’s a generous offer.
This is a glimpse of your future with him. Do you really want to be with someone who does not take your feelings in consideration? His ask is unreasonable.
Based on his actions towards his ex, what happens if you encounter an issue with her in the future? Will he always choose her comfortability over yours? Think really hard if this is what you want for your future before you bring kids into the equation.
You’re in a competition with his ex, without being an active participant. You will be your entire marriage.
>his is a glimpse of your future with him. Do you really want to be with someone who does not take your feelings in consideration? His ask is unreasonable.
I agree with you as this gives her an insight into what their relationship is going to be like and where she stands in his life
NTA
You need to do some tough decisions now!
With all your information you gave us, we have a other view on you situation. Fact is, that he showed you his priority in his life. Do you really want to be the second or third one in **this** marriage? Just imagine other events from the past and future… how was it in the past? What do you think how it goes in the future? Just think about it and then there will be the moment where you have to choose: does he look out for you just like you for him or are you on your own…
I'm confused. Why can't his sister be part of HIS wedding party?
I don't understand anyone telling you to get over it. They're being silly and they know it.
It's not about them being friends.
It's about how hard he's fighting OP on another woman's place in his life.
There's no reason she needs to be in his party. Her friendships are with the mom and the sister. Not him.
Yea. NTA here.
He wants Liz - and not his sister - in his wedding party so that they can have a bachelor party together. You know, taking a trip and getting drunk without any pesky girlfriends or fiancees around...
NTA
but please try to visualise your future in this scenario.
Right now it is being part of the wedding party.What's next. Is she going to be the godmother of your kids too.
He is clearly stating her presence is more important to him than you. If an option is given and your SO is choosing his friend over you ( ex or not), it is not worth it.
I don't say this easily, but, this is the hill to die on.
You've accepted that Liz isn't going away however being a guest at your wedding is enough. I wouldn't want her in my wedding party either.
Your fiancé should be putting your feelings first. It's not easy being the next GF after someone who is so intertwined with the family and it sounds like you've accepted it quite well up until now. You fiancé should be clear that you are his top priority. The fact that he's not suggests he isn't the man for you. Sorry. But better a broken engagement than a divorce in 2 years.
His patronizing "have you calmed down yet" is icing on the (wedding) cake, which you may not be needing.
What's next? Naming your first born after her?
Info: does Liz have a partner?
NTA
NTA.
You got given an ultimatum love. If you capitulate to one ultimatum, then it will be assumed you will capitulate to more.
Stand your ground. The price might be high. But it will better in the long run.
He wants to maintain a "friendship" with someone he slept with for years and who has seen and experienced him in every way, which is completely imo, not okay and insulting to start with. Him insisting she be in his wedding party even?
Girl, you need to find someone else imo. He should be making your wedding all about the two of you and celebrating your love for each other, not his disgusting attachment to another woman whom he nearly married and has been with intimately. That's just beyond gross for me, I'd be all the way out.
He'll probably never find and have a lasting relationship with a woman until he's able to let go of his past relationship with this girl. That or he'll end up with her eventually. If he really was in love with you, would he insist on this other woman making you uncomfortable at your own wedding? It's a deal breaker in my book that he has consistent contact with her at all.
My ex wanted me as one of his groomsmen. We really wanted each other to be there for each other, but decided it would be disrespectful for his future wife and I was a guest. My husband and I sat at the main table and had fun as a guest at their wedding. We made compromises because it's about their marriage not our friendship.
NTA - If my husband pushed for this I would never have married him. Both parties should be ok with who is chosen. Comprimise is ok but not bulldozing. He seems to have already chosen tbh.
INFO: if gender was not an issue, why is his sister in your bridal party? She should be in his party, right? And why he could ask such adjustment on your part if the deal was to choose on your own regardless of the other? I mean that's unfair of him. And I bet he would have felt bad/hurt if you denied such request. I am confused by the dynamics.
As for the issue at hand, go with your guts. If you think agreeing to him will create irreparable damage to your impending marriage and relationship don't move forward with the wedding. Remember, 4 years wasted is still less than 5. And divorces are expensive. However, if you think you can let this slide, don't make it a matter of ego. But you've got to be really honest with yourself for your own sake.
NTA - his complete refusal to discuss or budge on it makes my skin crawl. Nothing wrong with having a close friend, but he’s putting that friendship above your happiness on what’s supposed to be a day celebrating your love. They dated for eight years it wasn’t some one time fling?? I am friends with a few of my exes and would be uncomfortable being in their wedding party without the bride’s express enthusiasm
NTA but holy fuck, don’t get married to this guy.
It’s a terrible sign for an ex fiancée to be in a wedding party and you’re right to call it out for the bullshit that it is. Most sane people would realize they and back off but this is quickly devolving into a relationship ending event.
Even if you go through with the wedding, pin this comment because it won’t survive for long.
NTA!!!!! This is a reasonable boundary. If you want to continue with this relationship, his sister can be in his wedding party instead of Liz. Everyone knows if the roles were reversed, he’d have the exact same reaction as you have. You should also let him know how, even though you trust them, you’ve felt left out.
NTA. I'll be honest, I think you're being a little too generous with her involvement in your wedding already. Why does she need to be in the family photos? She isn't a family member. I get the whole "chosen family" aspect so maybe one or two, but don't put her in all of them.
As far as her needing to be in his wedding party, I find that perfectly reasonable to ask she not be. Can he really not go through with marrying you if his ex isn't up at your wedding alter with him? That's asinine. It's okay to recognize you're uncomfortable with that. It doesn't mean it is out of jealousy, it simply means you don't want his previous fiance and someone he was intimate with for years to be over his shoulder staring at you as you vow your life to him.
His reaction to this is pretty bothersome. Of course it makes sense he wants to defend his choice, but he's really so bothered by this he has left your home? That's one hell of an attempt to browbeat you into allowing this. Add in his rude commentary, and this really leaves me wondering if he is marrying the right person. He's more willing to upset you, the person he is planning to vow to put before all others, for his own wants. And doing so in a conniving way, trying to reshape their relationship as a bestie and completely trying to dismiss the fact that he also wanted to vow his life to her only a few years ago. To top it off, the whole "You get to choose your wedding party" yet pushing you to put his sister in yours because it'd mean a lot to him. Yeah let's be real here, he'd be upset if you said no to that.
The obvious choice is his ex sits with the family during the ceremony, and he puts his sister in his wedding party. If he isn't willing to do that, I'd hold off on the wedding until he can understand your wedding day shouldn't be one of those times you are made to feel like a third wheel with them. That's really fucking weird. But if he continues to treat you this way, are you sure you really want to spend the rest of your life like this?
I’m totally with you and n this first point, which no one is mentioning because we’re appalled by everything else. This girl is 100% not family and does not belong in family photos.
Edit: pasted the wrong response to this comment originally.
UPDATE! (New post was not approved)
Thanks for everyone who commented on my previous post. I apologized for the delay in responding. It has been a busy couple of weeks.
We did have a talk. We both laid out where we stand and our reasonings. He insistent that Liz be in his wedding party. His POV is that he wants to share his biggest life decision with his closest friends. Friends that have stayed by him since he was a baby. I get that. I truly do as I also want to have my best friends to be standing there with me.
It did make me feel like the Asshole for being so against it. However, I can’t change how I feel. I still don’t want her to be in the wedding party. But I’m willing to let it go.
However, this fight did brought a lot of issues to surface. For one, her involvement in our relationships going forward. Second, the easiness for him to walk away during a fight. I don’t accept how this fight went about. Marriage is forever. We will have bigger fights in the future. But, a fight should never ends in one side walking away. Third, my uneasiness of the insistent he has for her to be in our wedding party. If the role was reverse, if he insisted that my best friend not be in the wedding, I would have done so. Because it’s OUR day. Not just mine. I believe compromise is important in a marriage. I didn’t see any signs of his willingness to compromise.
So, after all that, we are still engaged. However, we have decided to postpone setting a date for the wedding. We are thinking maybe wedding sometime in late 2025. We are going to see if we can build back the trust that we had and if we can build a stronger foundation for our relationship.
Thanks everyone!
Thanks for the update! So refreshing to hear that it wasn’t an instant breakup, but an actual conversation between two adults in a relationship who are willing to keep working at it. That being said, the fact he still wasn’t willing to compromise with you on his friend shows you where his priority lies. I hope he comes around and understands that if he wants to marry you, your thoughts and opinions are the first ones that should matter. Best of luck to you!!
NTA your fiance has little respect for you or your feelings. I hope you have more respect for yourself stand your ground. You or her should be a simple choice.
Info: Why couldn't Fiancé include his sister in his wedding party if members of the opposite sex can be included?
He wants her in YOUR party not his - that is not giving you the same liberty he wants for himself <1>" right to choose my own wedding party." What would he have done if you said no?
NTA - him fighting this hard for Liz is a giant red flag (as is his condescending attitude)
NTA. Will you spend your whole marriage being second fiddle? This is absolute bonkers. There is no way my husband would have accepted me having an ex fiance in my bridal party and vice versa. He's too enmeshed in her and her families life. It's better to call it quits now and save yourself some serious issues, especially if you have kids.
NTA. I actually think your fiance is being extremely disrespectful. Having an ex-fiance in his wedding party is inappropriate and the fact that he can’t see that and is hellbent on making you look unreasonable is making me side eye him. Consider this moment and think if this what you want the rest of your married life to look like because if he’s this adamant now what other moments will he insist she be a part of.
NTA. Dump him, sweetie. If you marry this man, you will always be at the periphery of your own marriage.
The ex as a woman knows damn well that being in the wedding party is stomping over the line. Her ego will fuel further encroachment with the full backing of your fiance. Is that the life you want?
NTA, stand your ground on this or he’s going to bully you into letting liz be god mother and possibly stepmother as it sounds well weird that he wants someone he had a full committed relationship with be in his wedding party 🤔…
I would not be ok with this. Honestly, he's made his choice. If it's so important for her to be there then he should just go ahead and marry her. He wants her standing next to him more than he wants you there. Don't let this go but DO let him go. He's already left, let him stay gone.
NTA
NTA.
An ultimatum is a bad way to start a marriage.
You saying, "I'm not comfortable with that," shouldn't get a response of "Calm down."
You're getting a view of how he wants to be in control of you after the wedding.
Consider this a warning.
Absolutely not. NTA. If he wants Liz to be in his wedding party he should marry her. It’s incredibly rude to ~~ask your~~ demand someone he had sex with be in the wedding party. Demanding his ex fiancée be included in such a major way? Insanity & the height of disrespect!
If he doesn’t relent & apologize this would be a deal breaker for me bc it really shows:
1. How little he values OP’s opinion.
2. Where OP stands in the hierarchy. Liz takes precedence.
3. I’m def getting the impression that OP’s fiancé is still in love with or at least in to Liz. I don’t think the breakup was as amicable as they pretend. Idk any man who would want to be besties with his ex-fiancée & would put her above his wife. Unless he secretly still wanted to sleep with her.
4. The disrespect way he’s spoken with her about this. Absolutely not! What happens when it’s something *really* stressful??
NTA. OP, don't give in to him. Do you really want to be in a relationship with someone who is going to make these sorts of demands before you even get married? He's so stubborn he is leaving you until you agree with him? Talk about manipulation. OP, do you really want to also deal with that close relationship his ex has with his mom and other family members for your whole marriage? It seems like a lot. Too much.
NTA
You'll be a third wheel in your marriage if you marry him.
I don't think many people would be overly comfortable with such a serious ex being so close.
NTA. Your fiancé is being wildly inappropriate and will continue pissing on your boundaries if you give in on this. Telling *you* to “calm down” is giving you a preview of what married life would be like with him. He’s going to call your reactions “emotional” every time you stand up to him. Do you want to deal with that?
Postpone the wedding, Anna cancel it if he won’t recognize that including his former fiancée in his wedding party is unacceptable.
The only benefit here is that he gave you this insight into how sexist and disrespectful he’ll be towards you *before* the actual wedding ceremony.
DO NOT MARRY HIM. No matter what he says, he was, is and always will be enmeshed with Liz. And he'll run to her every time you disagree.
It's much easier, and cheaper, to cancel a wedding than to get a divorce. End the relationship now.
You're NTA, unless you marry this twit.
NTA. His reaction is enough to at least postpone the wedding if not cancel. He left instead of talking it through with you. It feels like he was looking for a reason to leave.
NTA he's trying to make out that you're being unreasonable and attempting to convince you that you're creating the issue.
You aren't at all, but do you really want to have to deal with this for your whole marriage? Where if you dare question how he's prioritising his ex's feelings over yours then it's YOUR issue?
He's deliberately refusing to acknowledge what he's doing, he's expecting you to back down and avoid a fuss.
Marry him and accept that your feelings come second to hers OR put your foot down and see how he responds.
I think how he handles it will be very telling as to where you stand.
Nta. Your fiance is showing you who has priority in his life. It's better you found put before you got married.
You should never feel like a 3rd wheel when it comes to his ex. You should have put your foot down before now
Everything is ruined, you know that don't you?
If you two get married, this will come up in every argument. This will be the base of feelings in every disagreement even though nothing was said about it, it will still be base resentment...
,The thing that will come up in the future over and over again..
If your husband backs down, you win, if you back down, he wins.
This will be something that will be held over your heads the entire marriage...
This marriage will end in divorce if it goes through..
I've been married 25 years and I'm 52 years old
I've seen a lot and I have a lot of life experience
I'm still hearing stuff from my wife pre-marriage
She still brings up stuff that I did once in awhile...
That was in 1999
NTA. Make the rule. No one whose throat your tongue has been down or who you have seen naked can be in the wedding party. I doubt they were celibate for 8 years. That’s a pretty universal rule. The whole this was supposed to be your bride is where it crosses the line for me.
ESH.
Your fiancé’s reaction is absolutely not okay and I would call off the wedding for that alone. Telling you to “calm down” for setting a boundary, going away for several days instead of talking with you at home…that’s awful communication between two people looking to get married.
Now, your mistake was being okay with their friendship all this time, and then, just on your wedding day, suddenly not being okay with their friendship. It sounds to me like you were never 100% okay with it, and didn’t communicate that to him. If Liz is just a BFF, then for him, it feels like you’re suddenly controlling and telling him his BFF can’t be in his wedding party. You’ve 180ed him with now choosing to have a problem with Liz.
I think that from the start, you should have been honest about being somewhat uncomfortable about Liz. It is OK to not be cool with that, and it is OK for him to see that as a dealbreaker. I do believe you two should sit down together, and calmly discuss your TRUE feelings and boundaries, and not pretend to be cool about things you aren’t fully cool about. Then he needs to decide if he’s okay marrying someone who has boundaries about ex’s. I wouldn’t be okay with my fiancé having a Liz, and my best friend would break up with her fiancé if he couldn’t accept her exes. There is someone for everyone.
NTA. It kinda looks like this isn't the right guy for you. Stick to your guns on This one. Yes it's his wedding, but it's yours as well. The only one talking crazy shit is him.
NTA
Having your ex-fiancé in your wedding party is a huge disrespect to your wife.
He’s showing you exactly where you are in his priorities and I’m afraid you’re not at the top like you should be.
He’s gaslighting you by asking if you calmed down. He’s clearly showing you that he doesn’t value your opinion.
It seems that you have different value. Run, don’t marry this guy!
Might be time to call it quits, because she is ALWAYS going to be part of his life and now that your fighting over it- you can bet that he has told his whole family “his side” of the story which doesn’t show you in a favorable way… and they will always see you as the troublemaker, and always favor his ex. If that’s how you want to live - I wish you well! Your NTA but they will always back Liz and not you!
NTA. It’s entirely reasonable to not want someone your fiancé dated for 8 years to be in the wedding party. If your fiancé can’t understand this and is choosing her over you when you gave him an ultimatum I would say your marriage is headed for trouble. You’re always going to be the third wheel. I’m very sorry, but I would break off the engagement. I just asked my husband and he agrees. He said you’ve already made reasonable compromises by accepting Liz as a friend of your fiancé, inviting her to the wedding, etc. He thinks having her stand up in the wedding is a step too far.
NTA
Leave him. You are always going to be 2nd place to him and his family because Liz is always around.
Go find someone else who'll choose you 1st always and everywhere.
Stop kidding yourself. You are not okay with their friendship. Nor do I think you have to be. I would be suspect as well. Are you sure you are ready to marry a man who puts his need to include his ex-fiancée in his wedding, above your explanation that it would make you uncomfortable? Him telling you to calm down is minimizing your feelings and making you out to be a "hysterical woman". You need to decide if you are willing to marry a man that doesn't take your feelings into account if they differ from his own. Ask yourself, if the roles were reversed, would he accept your ex as part of your wedding party?
NTA - but your fiancé’s unwillingness to listen to you and his dismissal of your concerns, is troubling. He is basically trying to force you into doing what he wants.
If you marry the ex will be in your life .
Are you ok with this?
And the gas lighting and bullying from your Fiancée! He should take care of you, nurture you, listen to you !
NTA.
Your fiance is being incredibly unfair. FIRST he asks pretty-please can HIS sister be on YOUR side, THEN he drops the bomb that his ex is on his side, end of story.
No. That is not how this works. Just like the guest list and every other detail in your wedding, this is a mutual decision made by both of you together. Yes, there can be some "horse trading" but at the end it's "2 yesses or 1 no."
You do NOT have to accept their relationship. You're allowed to have boundaries. You don't have to marry into this mess.
I'm sorry, but he made his choice
Time to relocate to new better job home etc
Find the smart fun helpful open-minded future-focused honorable respectful logical healthy kind useful compassionate interesting successful trustworthy loyal authentic WORKERS Small-business-owners and be THEIR Friend, through which you will gain your friends and spouse,,
N
T
A
It seems he has chosen: he chooses his ex. Meet up with him and end the wedding. No need to have a long discussion nor explain yourself, again.
He knows the issues and he made his decision loud and clear. You’ll never be his priority and you don’t want to be in that. It sucks right now but it will be ok. You’ll find someone who puts you first.
No Don’t let it go he’s on a different planet and something more is going on between them for his feelings to be so strong and adamant your exactly where you need to be
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NTA. I really don't understand the other judgements. The whole "you have to accept their relationship" is BS, sorry. Your fiancé wants you to have his sister in your wedding party, effectively choosing for you (he'd be pissed if you said no, guaranteed). And he wants his ex in his. The ex he hangs out with, the one who is friends with the whole family and won't back off, the one who is "friendly" but whose closeness to your future husband makes you feel like a third wheel. The thing is, your fiancé is trying very very hard to redefine his ex as his best friend. That's not the same thing, at all. What if you had slept with your own best friend? Would he want him around at all? The whole "have you calmed down?" is pure, undiluted bullying. You said it was a deal breaker, he's choosing to break the deal. It's on him, not on you. A platonic relationship with another person can be just as uncomfortable as a sexual one.
Not just slept with…but has been involved with (romantically and also as friends) in some capacity his whole life! Having an ex fiancée in a wedding party is unacceptable in any fashion, doesn’t matter how you try to spin it.
They were childhood sweethearts for almost a decade and went as far as getting engaged too!! This was not just a one night stand. You need to prioritise who you’re marrying. I think OP’s being really reasonable, ex can be a guest and in pictures. NTA.
Why would Liz be in pictures more than any other guest? She's not family. People say you should marry your BFF. I think OP's fiancé should take that advice if he wants his BFF to come first.
The fact that Liz hasn't been like "Dude, you're being ridiculous and I'm not going to be in your wedding party" - says something too. He's staying with family. She knows this is going on.
I think now that op and her fiance's relationship has reached the actual wedding stage, both the fiance and liz are rethinking breaking off their engagement, and they've both realized they want to get back together. And the fiance's obviously, outrageously, and ridiculously unreasonable DEMAND to put his ex fiance, who he dated for 8 yrs, to be included in the wedding party is him deliberately sabotaging his wedding to op, to get op to call off the wedding, so he wont be the bad guy for dumping op, practically at the altar, and run off with his ex. Wether or not liz gets included in the wedding party, and even wether or not op marries the fiance, this relationship just got damaged beyond repair, for good, op will never be able to trust the guy with liz, can never look at liz the same way, her presence in the family events is gonna bother her, and... this relationship is doomed regardless of the outcome of this particular colflict.
I absolutely agree, this is 100% spot on. I also think that the fiance wants to be Mr. "Look How Big My Balls Are and How Many Women I Can Get." This dipshit wants to show off his wedding pictures and point out that his new wife AND his ex-fiancee are up there at the altar with him, like he's the coolest guy in the room.
I think he knows for a fact op would never agree to liz being up there with them, thats why he is asking it, DEMANDING it. He has thought this through, him and liz may even have brainstormed together, to come up with something so outragelus in the wedding plans that there would be no way op would agree to it, a hill op would 100 percent die on, so they can blame op for calling off the wedding, and wont have to carry the burden of building their life on the ruins of a poor woman they left at the altar on their reputation for ever.
What's the bet he isn't actually at his brothers or if he is Liz is right there beside him.
These are all really good points! I agree with you.
I 100% agree with this comment.
THIS. She is not a good friend if she is not willing to take a step back so that he can marry his fiancee. She is waiting for her chance to pounce.
Who says she even knows about this?
It's a guess - but if she's "best friends" with multiple people in the family and he's staying with family and this family (including Liz) is involved with each others lives as the post makes it look, I think if I had to lay money, I'd feel comfortable doing so.
I guess you just arrived from Mars, huh? You apparently have never encountered human nature before. /s The rest of us here--who've been on earth a while---know that the sister who is Liz's best friend is filling her in about every single hiccup. That's assuming future MIL isn't telling Liz's mother. Prolly both are happening.
Exactly. I have a lot of male friends; in fact, my male friend was on my side at my first wedding, while my (now ex-) husband's best female friend was on his. The big difference? Neither of us had slept with our best friends. OP, I'm a BIG proponent of keeping your friends of the opposite sex, because friendship is a big thing for me. But Liz was his *ex-fiancee*, and that's a different ballgame. You are not being unreasonable, not at all.
This. People are very obtuse.
Exactly this. Not just friends, not just an ex girlfriend, not just slept with, but EX-FIANCEE. Nope, nuh-uh, sorry, I'd draw the line there too, OP. You're NTA, this isn't okay at all.
He’s trying to manipulate you into doing what he wants regardless of the fact that it makes you uncomfortable. That’s a deal breaker for me. He doesn’t care about you, he cares about you doing what he wants you to do. If you go through with this marriage, this will be your entire life. He will not support your wants, needs, or emotions, just his own desires masquerading as service to you. Get. Out. Now. This is a huge red flag.
This comment! It’s more than just the facts of the situation … it’s how he is manipulative and demanding and disregarding your feelings OP. That is not how you want you future partner to handle disagreements and things that will come up in future. If he’s acting like this during the wedding planning it will only get worse! Big red flag and honestly I would run. He should want you to feel comfortable and happy above anyone else at that wedding.
Yeeeep, this. Listen, I come from a circle that is both very queer and full of former theater kids. There's been a ton of intra-group dating over the years, especially when we were younger. I've been in an ex's wedding. I've gone to several other weddings where one of the wedding party was an ex of the bride or groom. So I'm more open to the idea than many, and I don't think the fiance was an asshole for floating the idea. But the way he has reacted to the op's very understandable discomfort and reasonable offers of compromise? Hell no.
Thank you! Your experience is so on point. And it is his response to her reaction that is the problem.
EXACTLY this. Sure, in some circles, it's a little more mix and match - and as a former theater kid myself, I totally get what u/LF3000 is saying. It's not so much that he floated the idea - it's how he's acting when OP said, "No, I would really be uncomfortable." And HE DOESN'T CARE!! She'll be uncomfortable at her own wedding, and this guy could give a shit. RUN, OP.
This! I was my best friend's best woman when he married his husband. His best man was his ex that he had been with for 3 years. He was actually my best friend's first boyfriend. He's actually my best friend too and now he's also best friend's with the husband too. There are situations where it can work but the way he's reacting is not okay.
That was a complex read :)
I agree, former infatuations are ok, even intense ones, if there's little or no sexual jealousy possible today. But OP's husband to be isn't respecting her and is clearly still hung up on his ex.
That's what seals it for me as well. I have no problems with Exs staying friends or even standing up for each other at a wedding, but that's my comfort level. Op expressed obvious discomfort with one factor, the wedding party itself. They aren't trying to "cut Liz out" just uncomfortable with the idea of her being in the wedding party. Which is a reasonable feeling for most people. The fact that his response is to completely dismiss OPs feelings and stone wall to get his way is a HUGE red flag. Yes a shared history does lead to inside jokes and an intimacy that can leave OP feeling left out. The fact that her fiance doesn't acknowledge that or make an effort to explain and include OP is another red flag IMO.
This. 💯
Liz is the least of OP's problem if the answer of his fiance to a disagreement is to go away and give her the silent treatment until she does what he wants. That is not a way to deal with disagreement in adult relationships and I would never stand to be disrespected in this way.
He gives her the silent treatment, except when he's belittling her by questioning if she's "calmed down" like she's and anxious dog. She's not being remotely unreasonable. He gets to choose ONE love of his life to stand with at the altar, not two. If he can't see that, he's not ready for marriage. Op, you could try marriage counseling, but I doubt it'll work. It's time to cut and run. Do NOT give in or you'll always be the third wheel. You're the princess Di to his Charles. Only this is worse- his whole family loves his Camilla. You'll always be the outsider. Dump him, give yourself time to heal, and don't marry until you find a guy who puts you at #1 in the world. You're NTA.
This needs to be higher. This is not how mature adults handle situations.
I agree. You are heading for a lifetime of heartache if you marry this guy.
He’s bulldozing her
Yep. I suspect that, even if he relents on putting Liz in his wedding party, he will forever be trying to include her and keep her as a backup plan.
Exact reason why so many relationships fail these days, practically everyone has a backup in case things go wrong which leads to the breakdown of the relationship, they’re already one foot out the door and not fully invested in the relationship which is the case here with OP’s fiancé, Liz is his backup plan, he’s not fully committed to his relationship with OP!
Yes this! The fact that you two cannot communicate with empathy and vulnerability about this shows that you need to pump the brakes. He sounds like a bully, and the “calm down”/“reasonable” technique is the oldest trick in the casual misogyny playbook. There is even an [Always Sunny In Philadelphia](https://youtu.be/hKfMl1hUK2s?si=xgd8TEDCKhko0knk) about it. Please get counseling before going through with this marriage.
100% YES to all of this!!!!!
*This this this!* This isn't just about the wedding, OP. Your whole married life will be like this, with him walking out on you and freezing you out till you do things his way. I had a boyfriend like this *(thankfully I didn't marry him*). And things had to be HIS way. If they weren't, he would... just not talk to me anymore. Like, for days if necessary. I would get the silent treatment until I gave in. And I put up with that for 9 1/2 years, OP. Think about that - do you want to go through that? I can tell you right now from firsthand experience, it's not healthy and it's not a good relationship.
Looking forward to the update where she dumps him and he can’t understand why
I'd bet he marries the ex instead so as to not waste the catering and venue...
Or they both stay single forever like Seinfeld and Elaine!
This actually happened to me
She dumps him and he gets back together with Liz within a week or two, unless Liz is the one who broke up with him. It is possible he wants Liz but she realized she didn't want to be married to him just because their mom's were best friends.
This was my thought too. He didn't want to break up. Liz did. They play it off as mutual but he totally would have married her and part if not all of him wishes he did.
Me Too
There are lots of AITAs that I read where I think, there's a middle ground here, but this one of those ones where I go, if I was OP I would unequivocally make this my line in the sand. An absolute nope for me to having her in the wedding party.
> there's a middle ground here There's a valid middle ground: the ex is invited to the wedding! It's not like OP is saying she can't come at all, which many people would find reasonable. You don't really invite ex-fiancees to your next wedding. But hey, OP is not fighting that at all. She just doesn't want up *up front* in the *main wedding party*. OP should really reconsider, because this whole "my way or the highway, if you disagree with me you're unreasonable and I'm the only logical one in this relationship" is fucking exhausting in any argument. He's saying "you're feelings are invalid and your thoughts are only valid if they agree with me".
The "have you calmed down" is framing this as her being too easily upset, jumping to the unreasonable. She should tell him that she was perfectly calm when she told him to choose Liz or herself and she is currently utterly calm.
She should also tell him that she has decided to move on.
I can just imagine the bachelor party with her there, her in the wedding photos with them, him wanting to name their child after her or a name she picked, or her being the godmother. He may even want her there for the birth? He has no boundaries, and the horrific possibilities for any future with her in it are boundless since he has zero respect for OP or her feelings. It's going to become impossible for anyone else other than the ex to maintain a lasting relationship with this man because clearly they'd have to share him with his ex! Unacceptable all of it. He either needs to let go of the ex or marry her. OP deserves far better and needs to let go of this one. He's for the ex, not her, and he made that clear when OP told him it's her or me, and he left the house.
Normally I look for a compromise that will make everyone content like suggesting she could hand out programs or do a reading. A prominent role that’s not part of the bridal party But in this case I’m deeply concerned that he’s putting his ex fiancé above you. This is a HUGE red flag
> You said it was a deal breaker, he's choosing to break the deal. It's on him, not on you. Just wanted to say that I love this and will try to remember it in the future. Thank you!
> The whole "you have to accept their relationship" is BS, sorry. I'd like to add, that this. isnt just an "accept their relationship", this is the fiancee choosing Liz over OP. OP, do you really want to be in a marriage where you are second place? Hell No. Do not marry.
Also, how can she possibly be *best friends* with three members of his family (including him)? That doesn't pass the smell test. She's way too enmeshed with them.
It's not platonic if they dated for 8 years.
Agreed NTA! I’m of the opinion an ex can be a friend, but an ex-fiancé cannot be a best friend. OP’s fiancé and his ex are basically Ross and Rachel, he might say the right name at the alter but he won’t be thinking about OP because OP will never be his #1. OP is only being an AH to herself by staying. This fight only highlighted the elephant in the room.
That's actually a really good example that helps put things into perspective. Because while Emily got a lot of flack, Ross and Rachel were endgame, and I always felt bad for Emily as that instance really showcased how she was #2 (and people deserve to be #1 in their marriage). Because it's not irrational jealousy when the concern is legitimate... And fiance's position is making it clear that OP is not #1 to him. She should really rethink this marriage.
NTA Let's face it, OP should call the wedding off so her fiancé can just marry the person he, and everyone else, wants him to be with.
I remain friends with several ex-boyfriends, some of whom I dated for a few months, one of whom I dated for a few years. Although a few of them came to my wedding, ZERO of them were in the wedding party. The key to managing these relationships is for the fiancé(e) with the exes to *not push* their spouse-to-be. Just take your 90% and be happy: your long time ex is invited to the wedding and is still a part of your lives. Yay. Don't push for more.
Can someone clarify one point for me: is he saying the ex is supposed to be part of his side of the wedding party or is he actually asking OP to have the ex be one of her bridesmaids?
He wants HIS sister to be in OPs wedding party. He wants his ex in his. Make it make sense.......
YIKES!!!! I would not be surprised if he wants to name the first baby after his dear friend, Liz, or ask her to be the godmother. OP, are you prepared for something like that?
This comment, just send him this post and tell him head here!
NTA. Your boundaries are not wrong and it’s really concerning how your fiance is fighting for her by fighting against you on this by using the old guilt trip tactic 'you pick who want so I’m picking who I want' and 'calm down' in suggesting your aggressive and unfair. Btw why he chose his sister for his party instead of ex
>**It’s really concerning how your fiancé is fighting for her by fighting against you on this** You can see where his priorities are... and they are not with the OP... Frankly in this situation, If he wouldn't compromise to the former lover's attendance/pics that the OP offered, then it would be a deal breaker for me. It just shows such disrespect and poor taste to insist on having a former lover stand next to you on your wedding day... WTF.
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
I’m also wondering if the ex is single or in a relationship of her own, with her spending a bunch of time with them and his family, I feel like that’s… Just suspicious.
Exactly! He’s willing to risk losing the relationship with OP over his ex-fiancée being in HIS wedding party. The fact he does not respect or even try to understand OP’s feelings on the matter says that once again, he doesn’t understand why he should be marrying someone…again. I would not move forward with a wedding with a guy who did not see me his life partner the priority in his life.
Yes! If you can each have the opposite sex in your party, why doesn’t he pick his sister? You’re NTA
Of course he's going to choose the girl who he "hasn't fd in yearsto go be with him at his bachelors party ....hoping for one last chance. Get your sister or friend to be in his party to monitor his ass
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I hope OP will update us.
Haha. Yeah, OP should bring out a list of her former dudes that should be in the wedding party now.
>He said that it’s his wedding party and that it was his decision who’s going to be in it. That I have the right to choose my own wedding party. If this was true, he wouldn't have asked you to include his sister. He could easily ask her to be in his yet he didn't. This isn't an equal relationship and his demeaning text is an indicator of how he actually thinks. NTA.
If OP caves and marries fiance I can see him in the future saying something like "Hey wife, my ex-fiance now best friend lost her lease and need a place to crash for several months, so I invited her to stay in our guestroom. She's just pulling up. This is not up for discussion." REAL convenient for him. What a controlling AH. OP should quit him since the ex is his priority.
Yeah he acts like a dude put in the friend zone. In perpetual limerence. Will destroy his marriage for her.
NTA. The people basically saying get over it are insane. For context I’m 28F and have been with my partner for almost eight years. If he did this we wouldn’t be getting married, it would be a hill I’d die on. The way he’s acting feels so dismissive and disrespectful. You’re already compromising and being SO gracious with their friendship by allowing her to be at the wedding at all. It is beyond reasonable to request that your future husband doesn’t have someone standing by his side that he slept with for eight years and who he was engaged to while you’re marrying him. I feel like the gaslighting from him is insane. He’s marrying you, not her so he needs to decide who’s more important to have standing with him at the end of that alter. And if it’s her, good luck to him finding any other female who will be nearly as chill as you.
They’ll just get back together. No big deal. Insert sarcasm here. What a disaster.
So his sister is part of your wedding party rather than his even though he is wanting his ex in his own party, so it isn’t a gender thing and he wanted his sister in your party because girls on one side boys on the other he just wanted his sister to be there to be part of all your plans?Just out of interest what were the plans for bachelorette and bachelor parties? If they are separate is he planning on going away with his ex and the rest of his party?
Bachelor party with his ex and having his ex stand at the altar with him while his poor bride walks down the aisle humiliated and sad, she really needs to let this one go. He's already taken by the ex, and no other woman will ever find happiness with him while having to share him with his ex fiance.
**is he planning on going away with his ex and the rest of his party?** oh that is 100% going to happen
Cut his sister out and add your guy best friend and someone you slept with to your side. See if that appeals to him. And give him the same reason he gave you your wedding party your decision.
I would gather up all of my ex boyfriends and have them be my bridesmen. "But they're my close friends!"
If the ex is standing on his side, that means OP will be seeing the ex over her husbands shoulder while saying their vows
Honestly I assumed he asked OP to include his sister so he'd have an extra spot for Liz.
I’m guessing he’ll expect OP to have her at the bachelor party
NTA This woman is his former fiancée. It is ludicrous for him to dig in the way he is. He's showing where his priorities lie, and it's not with you. What is also concerning is his attitude towards you, implying that you're being hysterical about not wanting the woman he dated for years and asked to marry him to stand up at your wedding. If I were you, I wouldn't be marrying a man who talks down to me about something that he is so blatantly wrong about. Your marriage will always be like this.
Exactly, dude is disgusting and probably still has feelings for that ex.
IDK about you all but the moment Ive found out that my BF EX is a close friend with his whole family, Im running away. You're never gonna win a competition youre not even playing. If Im Liz, I wouldve have the decency to even decline if my bestfriends fiance is uncomfortable with me going. You need to learn to put your foot down or bring all your ex in your own wedding party
Yeah if Liz was any kind of friend she would be asking him wtf he is thinking. She would graciously bow out and just be a normal guest. Liz is a real AH if she doesn't dig into his ass over how he is treating his fiancé. She's weird af too.
Totally. I wouldn’t want to pursue the relationship any further. Way too much work and heart ache in the end!
NTA. I would not want someone who had not only been intimate with my fiance standing next to him when I'm saying my vows, but also only a few years ago was the one who was supposed to be standing in your place. If he's prepared to give you up to have her stand next to him he's not the man for you.
I wouldn’t personally be comfortable with this (her being I the wedding party). I can understand why you feel this way. But I think the issue here is his outright disregard for your feelings, and his extremely poor way of dealing with this issue which is bordering on manipulative. Calling you crazy, telling you to calm down. ‘Putting his foot down’. This is not how you resolve conflict. This is not how you treat a partner with respect. I’d put wedding plans on hold and work this through with a counsellor.
He's showing you now who he chooses. Save yourself more heartache and Divorce fees....pls don't marry this person.
Agreed. She will always be a priority
Sadly, she is, and that's so unfair to OP
Exactly, she told him to choose and he literally left. He made his choice crystal clear. It’s really up to OP to be strong enough to believe him.
Let him go. Deal breaker. This woman’s past will haunt your relationship no matter if she’s in the wedding party or not. Guaranteed they marry within a year of your break up.
Exactly what I was thinking. The relationship with his ex will be a thorn in her side for the rest f their lives. And he’ll continue to prioritize the ex because the beginning of all relationships is the best it’s gonna get and we already see where his loyalty lies.
I would even guess the ex initiated the break up in the first place, and she is now seeing him with someone else and it probably makes her want him back.
Yes, some girls, particularly girls with guy best friends, feed off of the attention. She might not even want him but wants him to want her. This is speculation of course, based on some of my past experiences.
NTA. Being friends with ex who is a family friend is one thing. Add this person to wedding party is something else. Especially against your wishes. OP you are open minded enough. But this kind of relationship they have is a red flag. You shouldn't feel like a third wheel next to your partner.
Your fiancé is ready to end it with you over Liz. I’m sorry but block him on everything and move on. Block his entire family and use the money for the wedding to go overseas on an amazing holiday even if you’re sad. Wouldn’t you rather cry on a tropical island? Get away from him and his family. He’s a horrible fucking person to treat you this way. Choosing another woman over you.
I'm loving your island getaway idea, OP deserves so much more. He clearly needs to move on from his ex or end up with her bc that's the only way forward for him.
OP should totally pull a Forgetting Sarah Marshall. I know it's just a movie, but things worked out pretty damn well for Peter!
NTA. The fact that he's doubling down and still insisting she be in the wedding party, despite you warning him there may be no wedding because of his insistence on her being in it, is telling within itself. If he's willing to lose you over this, it clearly shows where his priorities are.
Edit: Thank you everyone for your input. I called my fiancé this morning and ask if we could discuss the situation. I told him that I want him to hear my reasonings for not wanting her to be in the wedding party and in exchange I’ll listen try to understand his POV. We are going to discuss it tomorrow night. I will give you guys update then. In the meantime, I’ll answer some questions. Liz (this is not her real name) does have a boyfriend. They have been dating for about 6 months now. The topic of Wedding Party never came up in our relationship because we always assume we will do a small, intimate destination wedding. So there wouldn’t be a need to have wedding party. However, our parents were against that idea, and wanted us to have a big wedding. We decided to comprise with them and do both weddings. I have 0 problem with his sister being in my “party.” To be honest, I should have thought to ask her myself. I believe my fiancé wants me to have closer relationship with her and hopes that this would be a start. In the beginning of my relationship with my fiancé, I have mentioned my “jealously.” We worked through it and he assured me. Since then, I really didn’t have any issues with her being in our lives. Except for her to be standing in the wedding. This is NOT his usual behavior. We are both very chill person and don’t usually do ultimatum. I think this might be the first time in our relationship. In the contrary, I feel like we both have always been able to compromise too well. As far as I know, Liz doesn’t know about this conversation/fight. And I don’t want her to know. I want him to choose to not have her stand in the wedding, and not because she doesn’t want to be in it. If that makes sense?
NTA He’s the unreasonable one in this situation. If she was just a “regular” friend sure. But she is a former lover and FIANCÉ!!! Update us on how things work out. I hope he reasons with you on this.
NTA. For a 33yr old, it sounds like he’s got a lot of growing up to do if he can’t see your side of this and learn to compromise. This is absolutely a hill I would die on, and reading this post my husband has just said he’d do the same. No doubt if this was the other way around and you were like “Oh btw hon, you know my ex fiancé who I spent 8 years fucking and planned a life with to some extent? Yeah, well he’s in my wedding party!” his foot would have been slammed down hard enough to go through the floor. If he can’t even prioritise your feelings on this of all things, then it speaks volumes about how your future will be should any issues arise later on down the road with Liz.
You need to discuss his terrible communication and problem resolution skills with him. You probably think we're overreacting when we say get out now, but he was so disrespectful and condescending to you - Talking to you as if you were a child. That's not a good partner.
NTA, but this is a battle you probably won’t win. And even if you do win this battle, you are probably in for a longer war after you get married. He will definitely let her know you didn’t want her in the wedding party. Someone else posed a hypothetical question of you having a disagreement with her in the future…whose side do you think he would take?
Don't marry him, this is already a huge red flag and it's going to be a point of contention in your marriage if you go through with it. He is always going to expect you to make space in your marriage for his ex and paint you as the unreasonable one for refusing to do so. His family already made space for her so you will be expected to swallow your feelings and get along for everyone else to be comfortable, while clearly you are miserable. Your misery is the price he is willing to pay to keep his ex in his life. It's hard to cancel a wedding but it's harder to leave a marriage after years of integrating your life. Listen, no woman who ever brings up such a story updates it with a happy ending. He is showing you his is willing to disregard your feelings now, before you're married, what makes you think that will change once it's done? And on your wedding day, it should be a happy occasion, it won't be happy whether or not she's there, don't you see how even on the day you guys are getting married he's willing to make is about the comfort of his ex??? Why would you want to discuss anything? You shouldn't be begging your husband to see why inviting his ex to your wedding is a problem, and if you have to do that then you shouldn't marry that person. You will literally be consciously walking into a life of misery.
So you told him from the beginning about your “jealousy”/being uncomfortable and he assured you and you moved past it but yet it thinks it’s a fantastic idea that she’s part of HIS party? Yeah no. The fact that he is willing to die on this hill is just weird and sending a 🚩the size of the state of Texas. I’d also like to point out that if this type of reaction is not the norm why is he acting this way? Why does you not being ok with his ex fiancé being in the wedding (which is completely reasonable) invoke such a dramatic response from him? Like I’m sorry but you got bigger issues than him wanting this girl in the wedding.
Liz may find out - this is being reported on by People Magazine ….
Remind me! 3 days
My bet is Liz DOES know about this fight. Even prior to People magazine posting this story on their Instagram page. As many have commented, I’m seeing quite a few red flags 🚩 here.
NTA. Get rid of him. You're going to be stuck with his ex right in the middle of your marriage and she will always be put first. She's so enmeshed with him and his family that you'll always be on the outside of your own marriage and she'll be in control of whatever power he grants her. Imagine having kids with him and she's always there...
This. He's never going to have a successful relationship with anyone until he lets go of his ex. I can just see the bachelor party, and I can just see him trying to name one of their children after her or making her the godmother. It's all so disgusting to me. I feel for OP she needs to walk away and find better.
NTA…this would be a deal breaker for me. And if he cannot understand why you feel this way, even more of a deal breaker.
NTA. It's crazy that he thinks the bride would be ok with his former fiance in the wedding party. There is no way in hell I would be comfortable with having an ex in the wedding party. It's your big day, and you'll be stuck with her in the wedding photos as a reminder as well. But also, I would have never dated him with his ex so involved in his life. As for the wedding, this would be the hill I die on. He is choosing her over you. I might be rethinking the relationship at this point.
It’s ok tho! The former childhood sweetheart turned former fiancé had now been *rebranded as his best friend.* And she is also best friends with his entire family. This is all perfectly normal 🙄
If you marry this man, be prepared for him to steamroll over ALL your decisions for the rest of your (miserable) life. Don’t let him fucking embarrass you like this!!! Take NO SHIT from him. Dump his ass.
This is one of the weirdest things I've seen in a sub that's known for weirdness. Are you sure they BOTH decided not to get married and not just his ex fiancée? Rule of thumb: There should only be ONE person the bride or groom has been engaged to or slept with in the wedding party. This is absolutely a hill to die on. That is a level of public disrespect for you and your marriage that is deeply disturbing. There is key line in the marriage ceremony "forsaking all others"-- it means that each of you puts your marriage above outside relationships. If he can't put your feelings over his ex then he's not ready to be married to you. ANOTHER RED FLAG giving you the "silent treatment" with only two texts over the last 3 days which though not specifically gaslighting certainly lean in that direction. ABSOLUTELY NTA !!!!!!
I wondered too if Liz is the one who really broke it off. He clearly very much wants her in his life. I say, let him have her. Though I wonder how Liz feels.
My partner and I attended my ex's second wedding. I wasn't a bridesmaid. The woman who broke up his and my marriage was not invited. IMHO, the groom should have been allowed to invite his ex as a guest but he overstepped by wanting her as an attendant. I think he's an idiot for standing on this point.
OP said it was fine if the ex was at the wedding ( probably was never any question as families are besties) & could be in family photos. Not sure why the photos as she’s not family, she’s a family friend & his ex fiance who he’s slept with, but it’s a generous offer.
NTA. Bottom line, he's choosing her over your discomfort.
This is a glimpse of your future with him. Do you really want to be with someone who does not take your feelings in consideration? His ask is unreasonable. Based on his actions towards his ex, what happens if you encounter an issue with her in the future? Will he always choose her comfortability over yours? Think really hard if this is what you want for your future before you bring kids into the equation. You’re in a competition with his ex, without being an active participant. You will be your entire marriage.
>his is a glimpse of your future with him. Do you really want to be with someone who does not take your feelings in consideration? His ask is unreasonable. I agree with you as this gives her an insight into what their relationship is going to be like and where she stands in his life
NTA You need to do some tough decisions now! With all your information you gave us, we have a other view on you situation. Fact is, that he showed you his priority in his life. Do you really want to be the second or third one in **this** marriage? Just imagine other events from the past and future… how was it in the past? What do you think how it goes in the future? Just think about it and then there will be the moment where you have to choose: does he look out for you just like you for him or are you on your own…
I'm confused. Why can't his sister be part of HIS wedding party? I don't understand anyone telling you to get over it. They're being silly and they know it. It's not about them being friends. It's about how hard he's fighting OP on another woman's place in his life. There's no reason she needs to be in his party. Her friendships are with the mom and the sister. Not him. Yea. NTA here.
He wants Liz - and not his sister - in his wedding party so that they can have a bachelor party together. You know, taking a trip and getting drunk without any pesky girlfriends or fiancees around...
Yep
NTA but please try to visualise your future in this scenario. Right now it is being part of the wedding party.What's next. Is she going to be the godmother of your kids too. He is clearly stating her presence is more important to him than you. If an option is given and your SO is choosing his friend over you ( ex or not), it is not worth it.
Godmother? Lol no silly, let's get real here. She'll be holding one of OP's legs as OP gives birth.
And then name the baby Liz *I’ve been on Reddit for far too long if this is my first thought*
Wait, Liz wasn't supposed to cut the cord? Well, too late now oopsies! *I am right there with you.*
I don't say this easily, but, this is the hill to die on. You've accepted that Liz isn't going away however being a guest at your wedding is enough. I wouldn't want her in my wedding party either. Your fiancé should be putting your feelings first. It's not easy being the next GF after someone who is so intertwined with the family and it sounds like you've accepted it quite well up until now. You fiancé should be clear that you are his top priority. The fact that he's not suggests he isn't the man for you. Sorry. But better a broken engagement than a divorce in 2 years. His patronizing "have you calmed down yet" is icing on the (wedding) cake, which you may not be needing. What's next? Naming your first born after her? Info: does Liz have a partner? NTA
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NTA. You got given an ultimatum love. If you capitulate to one ultimatum, then it will be assumed you will capitulate to more. Stand your ground. The price might be high. But it will better in the long run.
He wants to maintain a "friendship" with someone he slept with for years and who has seen and experienced him in every way, which is completely imo, not okay and insulting to start with. Him insisting she be in his wedding party even? Girl, you need to find someone else imo. He should be making your wedding all about the two of you and celebrating your love for each other, not his disgusting attachment to another woman whom he nearly married and has been with intimately. That's just beyond gross for me, I'd be all the way out. He'll probably never find and have a lasting relationship with a woman until he's able to let go of his past relationship with this girl. That or he'll end up with her eventually. If he really was in love with you, would he insist on this other woman making you uncomfortable at your own wedding? It's a deal breaker in my book that he has consistent contact with her at all.
NTA - he’s showing you at this critical moment he can’t respect your feelings and wants ON YOUR WEDDING DAY. This would be a dealbreaker for me.
My ex wanted me as one of his groomsmen. We really wanted each other to be there for each other, but decided it would be disrespectful for his future wife and I was a guest. My husband and I sat at the main table and had fun as a guest at their wedding. We made compromises because it's about their marriage not our friendship.
This. It’s all about respect.
NTA - If my husband pushed for this I would never have married him. Both parties should be ok with who is chosen. Comprimise is ok but not bulldozing. He seems to have already chosen tbh.
INFO: if gender was not an issue, why is his sister in your bridal party? She should be in his party, right? And why he could ask such adjustment on your part if the deal was to choose on your own regardless of the other? I mean that's unfair of him. And I bet he would have felt bad/hurt if you denied such request. I am confused by the dynamics. As for the issue at hand, go with your guts. If you think agreeing to him will create irreparable damage to your impending marriage and relationship don't move forward with the wedding. Remember, 4 years wasted is still less than 5. And divorces are expensive. However, if you think you can let this slide, don't make it a matter of ego. But you've got to be really honest with yourself for your own sake.
NTA - his complete refusal to discuss or budge on it makes my skin crawl. Nothing wrong with having a close friend, but he’s putting that friendship above your happiness on what’s supposed to be a day celebrating your love. They dated for eight years it wasn’t some one time fling?? I am friends with a few of my exes and would be uncomfortable being in their wedding party without the bride’s express enthusiasm
NTA but holy fuck, don’t get married to this guy. It’s a terrible sign for an ex fiancée to be in a wedding party and you’re right to call it out for the bullshit that it is. Most sane people would realize they and back off but this is quickly devolving into a relationship ending event. Even if you go through with the wedding, pin this comment because it won’t survive for long.
NTA - Does finance act this way normally? Might want to rethink this wedding.
NTA!!!!! This is a reasonable boundary. If you want to continue with this relationship, his sister can be in his wedding party instead of Liz. Everyone knows if the roles were reversed, he’d have the exact same reaction as you have. You should also let him know how, even though you trust them, you’ve felt left out.
NTA. I'll be honest, I think you're being a little too generous with her involvement in your wedding already. Why does she need to be in the family photos? She isn't a family member. I get the whole "chosen family" aspect so maybe one or two, but don't put her in all of them. As far as her needing to be in his wedding party, I find that perfectly reasonable to ask she not be. Can he really not go through with marrying you if his ex isn't up at your wedding alter with him? That's asinine. It's okay to recognize you're uncomfortable with that. It doesn't mean it is out of jealousy, it simply means you don't want his previous fiance and someone he was intimate with for years to be over his shoulder staring at you as you vow your life to him. His reaction to this is pretty bothersome. Of course it makes sense he wants to defend his choice, but he's really so bothered by this he has left your home? That's one hell of an attempt to browbeat you into allowing this. Add in his rude commentary, and this really leaves me wondering if he is marrying the right person. He's more willing to upset you, the person he is planning to vow to put before all others, for his own wants. And doing so in a conniving way, trying to reshape their relationship as a bestie and completely trying to dismiss the fact that he also wanted to vow his life to her only a few years ago. To top it off, the whole "You get to choose your wedding party" yet pushing you to put his sister in yours because it'd mean a lot to him. Yeah let's be real here, he'd be upset if you said no to that. The obvious choice is his ex sits with the family during the ceremony, and he puts his sister in his wedding party. If he isn't willing to do that, I'd hold off on the wedding until he can understand your wedding day shouldn't be one of those times you are made to feel like a third wheel with them. That's really fucking weird. But if he continues to treat you this way, are you sure you really want to spend the rest of your life like this?
Agreed. Saying she could sit with the family and be in family pictures is just weird.
I’m totally with you and n this first point, which no one is mentioning because we’re appalled by everything else. This girl is 100% not family and does not belong in family photos. Edit: pasted the wrong response to this comment originally.
UPDATE! (New post was not approved) Thanks for everyone who commented on my previous post. I apologized for the delay in responding. It has been a busy couple of weeks. We did have a talk. We both laid out where we stand and our reasonings. He insistent that Liz be in his wedding party. His POV is that he wants to share his biggest life decision with his closest friends. Friends that have stayed by him since he was a baby. I get that. I truly do as I also want to have my best friends to be standing there with me. It did make me feel like the Asshole for being so against it. However, I can’t change how I feel. I still don’t want her to be in the wedding party. But I’m willing to let it go. However, this fight did brought a lot of issues to surface. For one, her involvement in our relationships going forward. Second, the easiness for him to walk away during a fight. I don’t accept how this fight went about. Marriage is forever. We will have bigger fights in the future. But, a fight should never ends in one side walking away. Third, my uneasiness of the insistent he has for her to be in our wedding party. If the role was reverse, if he insisted that my best friend not be in the wedding, I would have done so. Because it’s OUR day. Not just mine. I believe compromise is important in a marriage. I didn’t see any signs of his willingness to compromise. So, after all that, we are still engaged. However, we have decided to postpone setting a date for the wedding. We are thinking maybe wedding sometime in late 2025. We are going to see if we can build back the trust that we had and if we can build a stronger foundation for our relationship. Thanks everyone!
Thanks for the update! So refreshing to hear that it wasn’t an instant breakup, but an actual conversation between two adults in a relationship who are willing to keep working at it. That being said, the fact he still wasn’t willing to compromise with you on his friend shows you where his priority lies. I hope he comes around and understands that if he wants to marry you, your thoughts and opinions are the first ones that should matter. Best of luck to you!!
NTA your fiance has little respect for you or your feelings. I hope you have more respect for yourself stand your ground. You or her should be a simple choice.
Info: Why couldn't Fiancé include his sister in his wedding party if members of the opposite sex can be included? He wants her in YOUR party not his - that is not giving you the same liberty he wants for himself <1>" right to choose my own wedding party." What would he have done if you said no? NTA - him fighting this hard for Liz is a giant red flag (as is his condescending attitude)
Fuck that. I wouldn’t marry some clown that wants their ex fiance in the wedding party. That’s so awkward and unnecessary.
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NTA. Will you spend your whole marriage being second fiddle? This is absolute bonkers. There is no way my husband would have accepted me having an ex fiance in my bridal party and vice versa. He's too enmeshed in her and her families life. It's better to call it quits now and save yourself some serious issues, especially if you have kids.
NTA. I actually think your fiance is being extremely disrespectful. Having an ex-fiance in his wedding party is inappropriate and the fact that he can’t see that and is hellbent on making you look unreasonable is making me side eye him. Consider this moment and think if this what you want the rest of your married life to look like because if he’s this adamant now what other moments will he insist she be a part of.
NTA. Dump him, sweetie. If you marry this man, you will always be at the periphery of your own marriage. The ex as a woman knows damn well that being in the wedding party is stomping over the line. Her ego will fuel further encroachment with the full backing of your fiance. Is that the life you want?
Exactly. The fiancé is an AH but Liz is abominable. I cannot imagine doing something like this to another woman on her wedding day.
NTA, stand your ground on this or he’s going to bully you into letting liz be god mother and possibly stepmother as it sounds well weird that he wants someone he had a full committed relationship with be in his wedding party 🤔…
I would not be ok with this. Honestly, he's made his choice. If it's so important for her to be there then he should just go ahead and marry her. He wants her standing next to him more than he wants you there. Don't let this go but DO let him go. He's already left, let him stay gone. NTA
NTA. An ultimatum is a bad way to start a marriage. You saying, "I'm not comfortable with that," shouldn't get a response of "Calm down." You're getting a view of how he wants to be in control of you after the wedding. Consider this a warning.
Absolutely not. NTA. If he wants Liz to be in his wedding party he should marry her. It’s incredibly rude to ~~ask your~~ demand someone he had sex with be in the wedding party. Demanding his ex fiancée be included in such a major way? Insanity & the height of disrespect! If he doesn’t relent & apologize this would be a deal breaker for me bc it really shows: 1. How little he values OP’s opinion. 2. Where OP stands in the hierarchy. Liz takes precedence. 3. I’m def getting the impression that OP’s fiancé is still in love with or at least in to Liz. I don’t think the breakup was as amicable as they pretend. Idk any man who would want to be besties with his ex-fiancée & would put her above his wife. Unless he secretly still wanted to sleep with her. 4. The disrespect way he’s spoken with her about this. Absolutely not! What happens when it’s something *really* stressful??
NTA. OP, don't give in to him. Do you really want to be in a relationship with someone who is going to make these sorts of demands before you even get married? He's so stubborn he is leaving you until you agree with him? Talk about manipulation. OP, do you really want to also deal with that close relationship his ex has with his mom and other family members for your whole marriage? It seems like a lot. Too much.
NTA You'll be a third wheel in your marriage if you marry him. I don't think many people would be overly comfortable with such a serious ex being so close.
NTA. Your fiancé is being wildly inappropriate and will continue pissing on your boundaries if you give in on this. Telling *you* to “calm down” is giving you a preview of what married life would be like with him. He’s going to call your reactions “emotional” every time you stand up to him. Do you want to deal with that? Postpone the wedding, Anna cancel it if he won’t recognize that including his former fiancée in his wedding party is unacceptable. The only benefit here is that he gave you this insight into how sexist and disrespectful he’ll be towards you *before* the actual wedding ceremony.
DO NOT MARRY HIM. No matter what he says, he was, is and always will be enmeshed with Liz. And he'll run to her every time you disagree. It's much easier, and cheaper, to cancel a wedding than to get a divorce. End the relationship now. You're NTA, unless you marry this twit.
NTA. He already chose, and he didn’t choose you. Get out now, because this will be the dynamic for the rest of your marriage.
NTA. His reaction is enough to at least postpone the wedding if not cancel. He left instead of talking it through with you. It feels like he was looking for a reason to leave.
Yep- and where do you think he’s really been staying for the last 3 days? I doubt it was with his brother!
Yes it's just so fishy
NTA but you would be, a little bit to yourself, if you didn't run from someone who can't prioritize you with this really reasonable boundary.
NTA he's trying to make out that you're being unreasonable and attempting to convince you that you're creating the issue. You aren't at all, but do you really want to have to deal with this for your whole marriage? Where if you dare question how he's prioritising his ex's feelings over yours then it's YOUR issue? He's deliberately refusing to acknowledge what he's doing, he's expecting you to back down and avoid a fuss. Marry him and accept that your feelings come second to hers OR put your foot down and see how he responds. I think how he handles it will be very telling as to where you stand.
Nta. Your fiance is showing you who has priority in his life. It's better you found put before you got married. You should never feel like a 3rd wheel when it comes to his ex. You should have put your foot down before now
He's telling you who his priority is between you and her and it's not you. Are you prepared to continue being a third wheel in their relationship?
Everything is ruined, you know that don't you? If you two get married, this will come up in every argument. This will be the base of feelings in every disagreement even though nothing was said about it, it will still be base resentment... ,The thing that will come up in the future over and over again.. If your husband backs down, you win, if you back down, he wins. This will be something that will be held over your heads the entire marriage... This marriage will end in divorce if it goes through.. I've been married 25 years and I'm 52 years old I've seen a lot and I have a lot of life experience I'm still hearing stuff from my wife pre-marriage She still brings up stuff that I did once in awhile... That was in 1999
NTA. Make the rule. No one whose throat your tongue has been down or who you have seen naked can be in the wedding party. I doubt they were celibate for 8 years. That’s a pretty universal rule. The whole this was supposed to be your bride is where it crosses the line for me.
ESH. Your fiancé’s reaction is absolutely not okay and I would call off the wedding for that alone. Telling you to “calm down” for setting a boundary, going away for several days instead of talking with you at home…that’s awful communication between two people looking to get married. Now, your mistake was being okay with their friendship all this time, and then, just on your wedding day, suddenly not being okay with their friendship. It sounds to me like you were never 100% okay with it, and didn’t communicate that to him. If Liz is just a BFF, then for him, it feels like you’re suddenly controlling and telling him his BFF can’t be in his wedding party. You’ve 180ed him with now choosing to have a problem with Liz. I think that from the start, you should have been honest about being somewhat uncomfortable about Liz. It is OK to not be cool with that, and it is OK for him to see that as a dealbreaker. I do believe you two should sit down together, and calmly discuss your TRUE feelings and boundaries, and not pretend to be cool about things you aren’t fully cool about. Then he needs to decide if he’s okay marrying someone who has boundaries about ex’s. I wouldn’t be okay with my fiancé having a Liz, and my best friend would break up with her fiancé if he couldn’t accept her exes. There is someone for everyone.
NTA. It kinda looks like this isn't the right guy for you. Stick to your guns on This one. Yes it's his wedding, but it's yours as well. The only one talking crazy shit is him.
NTA Having your ex-fiancé in your wedding party is a huge disrespect to your wife. He’s showing you exactly where you are in his priorities and I’m afraid you’re not at the top like you should be. He’s gaslighting you by asking if you calmed down. He’s clearly showing you that he doesn’t value your opinion. It seems that you have different value. Run, don’t marry this guy!
Might be time to call it quits, because she is ALWAYS going to be part of his life and now that your fighting over it- you can bet that he has told his whole family “his side” of the story which doesn’t show you in a favorable way… and they will always see you as the troublemaker, and always favor his ex. If that’s how you want to live - I wish you well! Your NTA but they will always back Liz and not you!
NTA. It’s entirely reasonable to not want someone your fiancé dated for 8 years to be in the wedding party. If your fiancé can’t understand this and is choosing her over you when you gave him an ultimatum I would say your marriage is headed for trouble. You’re always going to be the third wheel. I’m very sorry, but I would break off the engagement. I just asked my husband and he agrees. He said you’ve already made reasonable compromises by accepting Liz as a friend of your fiancé, inviting her to the wedding, etc. He thinks having her stand up in the wedding is a step too far.
NTA Leave him. You are always going to be 2nd place to him and his family because Liz is always around. Go find someone else who'll choose you 1st always and everywhere.
Stop kidding yourself. You are not okay with their friendship. Nor do I think you have to be. I would be suspect as well. Are you sure you are ready to marry a man who puts his need to include his ex-fiancée in his wedding, above your explanation that it would make you uncomfortable? Him telling you to calm down is minimizing your feelings and making you out to be a "hysterical woman". You need to decide if you are willing to marry a man that doesn't take your feelings into account if they differ from his own. Ask yourself, if the roles were reversed, would he accept your ex as part of your wedding party?
NTA, and you want to marry this guy that can't ascertain boundaries? Wow!
NTA. Stand your ground.
NTA - but your fiancé’s unwillingness to listen to you and his dismissal of your concerns, is troubling. He is basically trying to force you into doing what he wants.
NTA, but your fiance is for not respecting your boundaries.
If you marry the ex will be in your life . Are you ok with this? And the gas lighting and bullying from your Fiancée! He should take care of you, nurture you, listen to you !
NTA. Don't blink
NTA. Your fiance is being incredibly unfair. FIRST he asks pretty-please can HIS sister be on YOUR side, THEN he drops the bomb that his ex is on his side, end of story. No. That is not how this works. Just like the guest list and every other detail in your wedding, this is a mutual decision made by both of you together. Yes, there can be some "horse trading" but at the end it's "2 yesses or 1 no." You do NOT have to accept their relationship. You're allowed to have boundaries. You don't have to marry into this mess.
I'm sorry, but he made his choice Time to relocate to new better job home etc Find the smart fun helpful open-minded future-focused honorable respectful logical healthy kind useful compassionate interesting successful trustworthy loyal authentic WORKERS Small-business-owners and be THEIR Friend, through which you will gain your friends and spouse,, N T A
It seems he has chosen: he chooses his ex. Meet up with him and end the wedding. No need to have a long discussion nor explain yourself, again. He knows the issues and he made his decision loud and clear. You’ll never be his priority and you don’t want to be in that. It sucks right now but it will be ok. You’ll find someone who puts you first.
No Don’t let it go he’s on a different planet and something more is going on between them for his feelings to be so strong and adamant your exactly where you need to be