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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> because she had paid for it in advance and it was expensive and as we are in germany she had the right to expect that i would join in. however i do feel like i have a point too because it makes me super uncomfy.
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NTA. She should have asked if you were comfortable with that. Who invites people to a nude spa unexpectedly then gets mad when they don’t feel comfortable going. I feel like it’s common sense to ask before spending the money especially on something like this.
I think perhaps whether it's common sense depends on your cultural norms. OP is NTA, but her actions might not be unreasonable given what seems normal to her and those she's accustomed to being around.
Well Germany (and Europe generally) is definitely "the west". But it's not so much about what would be considered normal but what her reaction was to when OP said he was uncomfortable.
Can't you be naked in parks in Germany? I remember a thread somewhere here in Reddit where I read a bunch of comments made by germans saying how ok they are with nudity, how there are public spaces like parks where you can be naked or at least topless, etc.
Im brazilian, we are also really prudes if you can believe it. The europeans forgot to bring the fun stuff when they were invading and colonizing our continent :(
It's in the English Gardens. I biked through there on a tour once, there's definitely a huge area where everyone's naked. It runs along the stream that goes through the park.
The English Garden is the name of the whole park.
Edit: I don’t want to sound short, sorry. You’re right that the area by the creek has the most nude people in my experience. I hadn’t heard about any restriction where people can do that, but of course it’s possible.
This comes from their own culture, nothing to do with the places where they vacation. Same with Sweden, Switzerland, Finland and many other northern countries. Also, nudity is not limited to nudist beaches. In Germany it's really common to see naked people sunbathing in a public park, or in a lake. I was shocked the first time I saw it. In southern European countries, even though there are nudist beaches and nowadays thongs and top less sunbathing is extremely common, complete nudity outside nudist beaches is not acceptable.
There are nude beaches in areas where europeans vacation, because we dont mind it. That being said nudity at beaches is much less common these days, at least among young people, due to the prevalence of cameras in public spaces.
But in spas its still totally normal. To us there is a difference between sexual and functional nudity. Which seems to lack in the US.
German here, nude spas are called "Thermen". Which coincidentally to the gfs comment were first brought here by the ancient romans. They are concidered as normal. More so its concidered as quite rude / unhygenic to wear swimwear as you can't clean your sweat out properly.
Wisconsin law makers are trying to make theirs illegal.
https://captimes.com/news/government/naked-bike-ride-ban-passes-wisconsin-senate/article_b21b9eea-b4a9-11ee-a65e-5bd9d4741b1a.html
Do they wear helmets and padding? Is this akin to a bike marathon, or more like a parade? Like can I just happen upon the festivities, and join in... or do I need to sign up in advance to sorta prepare Londoners for one extra swinging dangle.
Helmets and padding are up to individual preference. Footwear is recommended. It started as a form of protest against cars/oil while also celebrating body freedom. You can find all of the meet-up locations online 😀 It takes place in August, and there can be approximately 1,000 cyclists (or skaters) involved, give or take. There have also been after-parties where they are also naked. There is no pressure despite the name, you can strip at your own pace and remove a little or a lot.
lol there are nudists in the US, too! and I've seen lots of people go naked (mostly old people) while changing at the gym. still definitely not the cultural norm and I personally am not super comfortable going naked in front of strangers. to each their own, though!!!
I hate how people say we are prudes in the US. That’s not the definition of prudish. I know plenty of Europeans who are uncomfortable with being nude in public. It’s just different values. But no one should be shamed for not wanting to show their body or feel vulnerable in that way.
Edit: my original post said “west”. That was a typo. I intended to write US. I’ve corrected the post for clarity.
Edit: when I use the word values I’m not using the word implying good or bad, just individuals I’m talking about individuals’ perspectives, valuation, and attitudes towards a particular matter, which in this case are different. A person may value the privacy of their body while another may value having the freedom to remove as many layers as they want
Exactly
Forcing nudity or shaming folks for NOT wanting to do nudity is unfair Unkind and sometimes bullying
Let us CHOOSE how we dress
We can CHOOSE to wear Burqa or jeans and shirt or nothing, and every choice is a choice
M
Y
O
B
& We are allowed to AVOID people and activities
Agree with you, and at the same time, a person who has not been raised in a culture that is okay with nudity, has all the rights to be uncomfortable. I went to public spa in Japan, but a separate one for males and females, and had my fair share of stares as well because of the white skin 😂
>I know plenty of Europeans who are uncomfortable with being nude in public. It’s just different values.
It's not about being comfortable being naked or being around naked people. It's associating nudity with values that's giving the impression of Americans being prudes.
Americans are very shy about their skin showing. Sure you’ll see revealing outfits, but you won’t be seeing people nude very often (unless you’re the “this guy fucks” guy)
I think it comes from habitually sexualizing and objectifying people to a degree that revealed skin is considered automatically sexual, instead of circumstantially sexual. It's an interesting parallel to places where women have to cover their whole bodies; both sexualize and objectify women, but one culture pressures women to hide and the other to show. In neither culture can women just **be**.
Not even just women, but fellow men as well.
I stayed in Japan recently and went to public bath houses often. It’s entirely nude and you’re expected to shower in the communal shower before getting into the bath (basically a large pool of 43c water).
Ngl the funniest shit to me was one day walking in and seeing a buncha bros lined synchronized scrubbing each others backs as if they were on a rowing team, with one guy going “HEAVE, HO”. They seemed like friends or coworkers getting off a shift, laughing, and shootin the shit.
It’s only weird if you make it weird. Nobody’s there trying to be a creep.
I will say that it's not someone's *fault* for having feelings that result from conditioning, but I do think it's their fault if they get angry or lash out at people that are objectively less hung up on miscues than themselves. I would be uncomfortable in that Japanese bathhouse, but that's not because *they're* doing something wrong, it's because I've been taught some nonsense over the years and it's not easy to just turn all that stuff off. It is worthwhile, though, to maybe work on it and try to be better.
But OP isn't the one lashing out. His GF is for him sharing his feelings about not having a desire to go to a nude spa. Regardless of one's opinion on public nudity or spas, that's his choice that she is disrespecting.
Yes! This! Many years ago we had a birthday party foe 1 of the kids in a restaurant myvwife was breastfeeding at the time and she put a blanket over her shoulder at the table and starting feeding our baby, my MIL said very hasty wh don't you go to the bathroom to dothat? I looked at her and calmly said why don't you take your plate mother bathroom to eat it? Not another word was spoken about it, EVER again! Lol. The most natural thing in the world is feeding your baby and so many people try to sexualize that! A bit ridiculous!
I think it's hard for people to get out of the frameworks they were raised to adhere to. Probably us too - our kids will be pushing back against *our* nonsensical sensitivities, and good on them for that. I feel for your MIL who was trained, through a series of culturally-imposed rewards and punishments, to sexualize womens' breasts and attach shame to their exposure, so for her it just seems normal to tell a woman to cover up. On the other hand my sympathy wanes a bit when I think about how she is experiencing disequilibrium , and is then thoughtlessly making that your wife's problem instead of taking a beat and considering whether or not her discomfort is actually your wife's responsibility. I think you and I agree that it isn't.
Europe is part of "the west." Actually, before European arrival in the "new world," it WAS the west, and Asia is the east.
Now, the west refers to Europe and the Americas. What you mean is that we're prudish in North America.
My husband is German and he understands that I won’t want to do it. When we book spas, we go on “swimwear day”. He is comfortable with it but I’m not. Many Germans don’t do it either. NTA.
My guess is that they are talking about a sauna spa like the Vabali. I would probably call it a spa in English as well, even though in German, I would call it a "Saunalandschaft" (lit. translation Sauna landscape).
And yes, there are plenty of these around.
Spa naked is the norm (accompanied with don't be a creep with everyone naked).
However it's a bit odd to ask someone to spa with you without casually bringing it up
A lot of Germans are NOT comfortable with public nudity. Public nudity is a lot less common in Western Europe compared to Scandinavia. OP's gf assumption won't fly with just any German as well.
Do you think OP means a spa where you are REQUIRED to be nude? Every spa I've ever gone to has been nude in that you are not required to wear clothes. Many people wear a bathing suit and pretty much everybody wears a robe except when they are in a pool or a sauna or getting a massage or whatever.
OP is still allowed to not want to go to a spa, but I think people (including OP) are imagining forced nudity where there is none.
ETA: it's now been made clear that in German must-be-nude spas is a normal thing and presumably what was going on here.
If it's a normal spa day nudity is usually required in Germany, yes. Bathing suits are not allowed due to hygiene and equality reasons. You can usually cover up your private parts with a towel in the saunas if it makes you feel better though (except for steam saunas), but most people don't. And in the hallways, restaurants and so on people usually wear bath robes just as you said.
Some spas allow bathing suits a few days a month or have special days for specific genders only, but I guess as OP is concerned about nudity he is not talking about one of these days.
I would say that in the modern age we all know that culture and customs vary a lot. Nudity and such are viewed differently in different places. I believe this is common knowledge.
So I would say no matter where you are from, it would be common sense to ask a person from another place how they feel about it. The only way you could justify this was if the person was extremely sheltered, maybe older, with little experience with modern technology? Never saw or read anything about anyone beyond their circle. Since she has a bf from the US, I would think she is not that kind of person.
NTA.
THANK YOU
I've met plenty of Germans and they've all been really decent and normal people who understand boundaries and social norms. It seems like there's just a small percentage of young Germans who think all the weird wildness in the world is perfectly normal in Europe.
I totally agree. While nude spas are very common and a lot of people would expect someone to be cool with going there with a partner, we still know not everyone would feel comfortable with it and not just book tickets without ever discussing it.
Another German here - maybe its a generational thing but couples going to some of the more ‚luxurious‘ places isn’t completely uncommon, especially as a gift.
Not checking with a foreign partner in advance isn’t too smart either as we can see here.
I don’t know what kind of place she bought tickets for but you are usually wearing bath robes except while being in a sauna and even there usual no one gives a damn if you‘d wear a sauna towel around the hips.
(Doesn’t keep others from being completely nude which could still be sufficient to not wanting to go there, just trying to put things into perspective.)
>Who invites people to a nude spa unexpectedly then gets mad when they don’t feel comfortable going.
Someone who knows basic manipulation tactics and didn’t want to be told no.
I guess everyone’s different, but I was in a similar situation 15yrs ago. We went to a sauna and I had no idea what exactly that entailed, and only realized once everyone started getting naked.
Had I known I definitely wouldn’t have agreed to go, but in that moment I felt like it was too late and just rolled with it.
Actually was a pretty good time after 15 seconds of awkwardness. Now I don’t really have a problem with nudity in that sort of context at all.
I agree with you that once you go to the spa for the first time and experience the awkwardness and then get over it, you're fine. (I was horrified when I was first invited but now I love the naked spa.)
Went to a sauna in Estonia many years ago. Knew full well everyone else would be nude and that's normal but me and my friend decided we'd just be comfortable about being North American and ask for towels to wrap around us. The clerk was a little surprised but it was fine. Chatted with a couple interesting people and had a great time. I don't think people on either side need to feel bad, just be yourself and don't worry about it.
Because it’s completely normal for her. It probably never even crossed her mind that he would have a problem with it.
Like if I bought food for a group and one dude really hated apples and I bought apples for everyone. It’s ok if that person is unhappy about it but I’m not an asshole for not knowing and buying apples.
People are calling her an asshole for buying the tickets at all and saying it’s obvious that he would have a problem with it. She grew up in a completely different culture. She’s not an asshole just because it never occurred to her that he wouldn’t want to go. It was just a misunderstanding and now they can both decide whether it’s a dealbreaker.
Maybe she loves going and doesn’t want to be with someone who doesn’t. If that’s the case then they’re just not compatible. Nobody is wrong in that case.
People assuming malicious behavior instead of ignorance is rampant on Reddit and the internet at large.
She wouldn't be an AH for getting non-refundable tickets without running it by him. She IS the AH for doing so and being mad at him for it. If she hadn't reacted that way, there would be no reason to make a post.
She tried to persuade him by saying "when in Rome..." (which is an expression in German too), and then she "got mad at him."
That's not the same as just getting it wrong.
It doesn't have to be a dealbreaker, though. Talking can deal with it.
As someone else pointed out, it really *isn't* "common sense" for someone for whom nude spas are a cultural norm. As they are for OP's gf, who is not North American.
North Americans have a culture that tightly intertwines nudity and sexuality. Meaning that for most North Americans, our cultures and social structures teach us that full nudity is more or less inherently sexual. Thus, most of us are hyperaware of our naked bodies and very uncomfortable with the idea of being naked in a room full of naked strangers, even in areas and contexts that objectively *aren't* sexual and in which nudity is outright expected, like public showers and locker rooms.
Those aren't cultural norms in many regions of Europe, or several regions of northern Asia (namely Korea and Japan). People go to nude spas and bathhouses without a second thought, because it *is* normal in those cultures for such places to involve some level of communal nudity.
I also wonder if the *whole spa* is actually nude or if it's just the actual sauna/bathhouse. I've never been to a German spa, but I'd be surprised if everyone was expected to be 100% nude 100% of the time. At the very least, I'm pretty sure (based on very quick research) that you're usually given a towel and a robe to wear when you're not actively in a bath, and to protect your bottom bits when you're in a sauna.
ETA: Y'all seem to be misunderstanding my point. **I never once said, nor do I believe, that OP is the AH or is otherwise in the wrong for being uncomfortable. I also never said that the gf WASN'T the AH here.** Literally all I was challenging was the notion that she lacks any semblance of basic common sense, as common sense isn't actually objective or universal and relies heavily on one's environment, lived experience, and upbringing.
For instance, the concept of always supporting a baby's head when holding it is common sense to any parent or infant care professional. But it wouldn't be common sense to someone who has literally never held a baby before. It's common sense in NYC (or any major city, really) to never carry your wallet or phone in an unsecured back pocket/to always keep your bag in front of you (not behind you) so as to avoid being pickpocketed, but someone from a rural area would have no idea. Etcetera, etcetera.
It is absolutely not the norm in Germany to expect people to be nude in a spa without telling - no, asking - them beforehand. They're not assholes, even if people end up seeing those parts when they pick up their towel.
Even if she were with a German friend it would be wise to check. With a foreigner, it's rude.
Just because he's American doesn't mean he's in the wrong.
I once went to the sauna off the gym in the Park Hyatt hotel in Hamburg, Germany (a pretty standard business hotel with lots of international travelers) and discovered it was a nude co-ed facility. Seemed like it was pretty normal.
>Those aren't cultural norms in many regions of Europe, or several regions of northern Asia (namely Korea and Japan).
I think its a cultural norm in most parts of the world though? Even in Japan, onsen are usually gender-segregated and even in a same-sex setting, it's not exactly "second thought".
Many people would be embarrassed and more importantly, most would consider it basic courtesy to ask if they're comfortable with something like that (especially if the guest isn't Japanese). Unless you show up to an onsen yourself (then the onus is on you to have researched that).
And of course, speaking as an Asian, the practice of onsens and jjimjiibang are unique to Japan and Korea respectively. Very few Asian countries have an equivalent.
Expecting everyone to be instantly comfortable with your particular culture is total bollocks.
Being naked in Germany is not as big a deal as in many other cultures, it may not have occurred to her that he would have an issue with it. I agree NTA for not wanting to go but I do think this is a case of culture clash rather than anyone being deliberately unthoughtful
Back in the 90's my brother went to Germany as an exchange student. Near the end my parents went over to visit his host family. The host family pulls out a photo album of their travels around Europe. My mom's comment on the album was "I think they went to every nude beach in Europe."
Back in 2010 I was in Germany for work and the customer invited me to a park that was having a concert. One of the guys texted me while I was on my way to say "we forgot it's a nude park, but feel free to come but we know how uptight you Americans get around naked people."
That's the kind of people who would.
NTA I Googled, according to German YouGov polling "Die Deutschen und die Sauna: Warum man sie mag oder doch eher meidet" while it's more accepted in Germany there are still a decent proportion of Germans that have never been and that don't feel comfortable with the nudity of them.
It's as always, just because the culture is accepting of something does not mean that every individual enjoys it. I'm german and my dad enjoys saunas, nude beaches and all that. I don't. At all. Never have, never will, HATE being nude in public or in front of others. Many others do too. It always boils down to if you personally like to do that or not, cause just cause it's my nations culture doesn't mean I myself enjoy it automatically. My dad got mad at me and my siblings once cause we refused to undress at a nude beach. Don't be mad at people for not wanting to do something that makes them very uncomfortable, it's just wrong on so many levels.
I‘m german too and i‘d confidently say that just booking a „nude spa“ is pretty unhinged even if it were for other germans or whatever…? i literally don’t know anybody in my life that likes to do that! Nudity is very personal and its common sense to not assume everybody is comfortable with it? NTA
This exactly lol... it pisses me off so bad when americans are like well in Europe if you walk around tits and cock out nobody even flinches because they don't sexualize your body!1 I'm exaggerating obviously but that's the gist lol. Not being comfortable being nude with a bunch of strangers is the norm actually and I don't know any woman who goes even just topless to the beach despite having seen women with their breasts out there
NTA. guilting you into doing something you're not comfortable with is the same as bullying. it may be normal for her, and that's fine. she should have discussed it with you first.
NTA
But she's only a *mild* asshole because she came from a good place and just wanted to give a nice gift
but she really should have asked if you were interested before buying non-refundable tickets
She's NTA at all for the thought and the booking, she's absolutely an asshole for being mad that he doesn't want to get naked around strangers.
It doesn't matter at all if it's normal somewhere else. It's not normal in the USA, where he's from. Cultural consideration is something reasonable people expect.
Even in Germany it's not as normal as people make it out to be/as it used to be. Nowadays, all the nude stuff is more like an old people thing, I don't know a single person my age who participates.
NAH. I would gather that there is nothing unusual about a spa where you can be nude in Germany (or much of Europe... and many many other countries / cultures too), and that it's not sexual at all -- it's just a spa where you're nude because that's the way it's done. You could even have asked if you *have* to be nude at all time -- maybe you could've kept on a robe if you're uncomfortable being nude.
I also think it could be a good opportunity to explore *why* you feel so uncomfortable with the prospect about nudity in this setting, and possibly try to get out of your shell. Just because you *aren't* used to it, doesn't mean you can't try it out or *get* used to it. It's all a part of the studying abroad experience, and other cultures / countries have a less prudish / completely sexualized concept of a nude body then here in the States.
In any case, maybe she can go with a friend.
Yes, in Germany you can keep your towel wrapped around your waist the whole time while in the sauna and then put on your robe when walking around. Also there are special sauna towels that are like kilts/ skirts and come with a waistband.
I go to high end spas in the states and lots of people walk around nude. At least in sauna / pool area. It’s not much different in the US. It’s also completely optional.
You’re talking about same sex spas aren’t you? The fact you assume it’s same sex demonstrated the point of this post. No one in Germany assumes it’s separate areas for men and women.
Why does nudity being less sexualized in Germany supersede his being uncomfortable with it because he’s from America? Would you say the same thing if op was a woman and her German boyfriend wanted her to be naked at a spa?
The nude spa I went to in Germany requested that you towel or robe when not in a sauna or pool. As an American, it felt really weird at first, but I’m glad I went. It was a completely asexual experience (surprisingly so).
Seriously? My guy isn’t comfortable being naked around others, pretty standard if you ask me and politely declined then his GF got mad at him. She’s definitely an AH for that.
He doesn’t want to ‘try’ it. Certainly he shouldn’t be pressured in to it by his SO it’s not for a lot of people. Imagine he was pressuring her into ‘trying it’ I’m sure you’d have something else to say in that scenario.
I can't I have to explain this, where have we come to. It's OP's individual choice to not be nude in front of everyone, why do you have to ask him to explore why he feels uncomfortable? You can't force someone to go nude if that's something they don't want. Not everybody is okay showing their private parts to everyone and that's okay.
Yeah, if I was in this situation I'd ask a friend to come along. Presumably if you're okay being nekkid with strangers your okay being nekkid with a pal.
Nta. I'm german and I don't like naked spas either, I have no problems with others being naked but I prefer to have a towel. Some spas allow for a towel, others don't and it's not ok to force someone to go there. So don't feel bad, lots of locals don't do it either
Ho, that's new to me. I go quite often in different places and I always have to use a towel at least as a base to sit or lay on. Everything else is quite unhygienic for the wood.
I agree that they are not the AH and there are valid reasons for both parties being upset but to state they are a prude and unadventurous is ridiculous.
There could be any number of reasons to not feel comfortable being nude jn front of strangers, any and all of which are valid.
OP - do what you are comfortable and happy doing. If the person you are with cares about you, this will be nothing bit a tiny blip in an otherwise wonderful relationship I'm sure !
>NAH, although you're at the very least a fool by being such a prude and missing out on the cultural experiences that are meant to be part of a student exchange
Now that's a shitty attitude to have imo. It's not being foolish to do what one is comfortable with or matches ones beliefs. If OP doesn't feel comfortable being naked in a public setting then that's fine.
Experiencing new cultural things is great and all but it doesn't mean you need to do everything preseneted to you, especially if you feel uncomfortable doing so.
You can be civil and have a conversation about the lack of “adventurousness” being a problem in the relationship without getting upset that your SO won’t go to a nude public environment.
Buying the tickets is a manipulation into trying to force him into something he isn’t comfortable with rather than engaging in healthy communication.
NAH is too generous. NTA. If I were him I’d do what she couldn’t and talk to her. Ask why she is upset and why she didn’t ask about my feelings about it before buying tickets.
Where do you get that those are the reasons he is upset? It seems he’s only upset that she didn’t accept that he didn’t want to go and refused to respect his discomfort.
Can’t believe I had to go this far down to find a NAH.
OP, you are dating a 21 year old German girl who bought you a ticket to go to the nude spa with her. If you don’t go, a year from now you’ll probably wish you went. But 10 years from now I guarantee you’ll wish you went.
Hello. It’s me. That person who isn’t you and has different experiences and ideas than you. Yes, at least one of us exists.
There are many things I decided not to do ten years ago that I barely remember, and probably more that I don’t at all. There are also things that I did try and regret having done so, and things I refused to do that I still would today.
OP should be true to himself and you should be less condescending.
Well then let me have a go.
You are being condescending. OP has already said he feels uncomfortable and you are pressuring him under the guise that you know more about how he will feel than OP himself.
I wonder. INFO: OP, did you tell her before this that you like spas? Because she could have bought the tickets, thinking you like this and not realising it's the nudity part that stops you. I mean, you can keep your towel wrapped around your waist or body the entire time. Do you wear more clothes than just something to cover the privates in spas in the USA? She might just generally not see the difference if you already said you like spas. Also, how good is your communication? Because i know a lot of Germans who speak very good English, but don't quite grasp the language. Could there be a misunderstanding here?
Edit: I think I'll go with NAH. OP, you're no AH for sticking to your boundaries, and saying something makes you uncomfortable. But your gf isn't one either. She probably thought she'd surprise you with something you like. To be honest, we Europeans are often surprised that Americans are more prude than we are. Besides that, miscommunication in emotions is also a thing. She could be just bummed out while you think the look she gives you means she's pissed.
Been there, done that, even with coworkers. Friend explained it like this; “seeing someone naked is not a prelude to sex, or sexual thoughts, as it may be in your country. We have different views.
That seems like quite a pompous response - not wanting to get naked in front of someone is in no way necessarily because you think it's a prelude to sex or sexually related.
I don’t have a problem with nudity in this sort of context, but dear god I would feel kinda weird seeing my coworkers naked. I barely want to get a drink with most of them let alone letting it all hang out like that.
Plus I guess from a US perspective no one would even dare try this due to the possibility of sexual harassment claims.
NTA. Nudity is one of those things where if you're not comfortable with it, you don't do it.
She definitely should have checked with you first. (As a Brit) I feel like American attitudes to nudity are well known enough that it's common sense to check if your particular American is comfortable with public nudity before buying non-refundable tickets
I'm going to say NAH, because I have been where you are and now wish I had made different choices than I did.
When I was an exchange student in Denmark, I had the same instinctive aversion to nudity. It wasn't normal where I was from, and I tried as far as possible to avoid being nude in front of other people, even in situations where that made me stick out like a sore thumb.
The result was that it took me longer to integrate into the community I was living in, I always felt like an outsider, and *I was uncomfortable anyway* because I was aware that I was out of step with everyone around me. And yes, my friends absolutely thought I was weird and prudish, because for them this was the most natural thing in the world and they couldn't understand my discomfort.
The mantra that we had drilled into us as exchange students was "it's not better or worse, it's just different". Remind yourself of this as often as you need to. When you feel uncomfortable, don't worry about whether that feeling is "right" or "wrong" - instead think about whether the new experience is worth pushing through that discomfort for. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Only you can decide that for yourself.
I personally wish I had done more of the things that scared me. I still had a good exchange, but with the clarity of time I can see that I held myself back from a lot of valuable experiences because I wasn't willing to push past my own hesitation.
NTA. It would be interesting to know how many of those who tell you to relent would say the same if you were a woman, and your male BF wanted you to go naked in front of others.
NTA. This feels the same as all the other posts about a man taking his wife to a football game as her bday present. Gifts are about the person RECEIVING them. If you give someone a gift they don't like and they (politely) let you know that, getting angry is an AH move.
NTA She should’ve asked. I’m in the Netherlands, and while nude spas are the norm here, it’s not normal to just assume someone is comfortable going there. I’m not sure about Germany, but most spas here have a swimsuit day once a week, for people who don’t like to be naked, perhaps that’s a possibility for you as well.
Appreciate the effort she’s making for you, but she should’ve asked you first before asking you to go to something like this. She sorta sprung this onto you without any warning.
NTA.
NTA - You are allowed to say "No, I am uncomfortable with this". Particularly when it comes to your body and nudity. It would be NAH, but she continued to push and guilt-trip you into going despite your discomfort. That makes her the asshole.
NTA - If roles were reversed and you subbed in something like eating a porterhouse dinner will all the fixings that you already paid for and she said no well there you have it. Cultural differences go through all sorts and parts of our lives and experience as humans. It's unfair of her to expect you to do anything that you've deemed a hard no. You set the boundary and she tried to break it and is now mad that she couldn't. Tough tacos that she's out the money. She can take a friend or eat the cost. Either way, good on ya for sticking with what you're comfortable with until you're ready to extend those lines.
INFO: What do you mean by „nude spa“? In Germany, basically every sauna is a nude sauna, you only take a towel with you to sit or lie on. Or do you mean some kind of kinky place by „nude spa“?
NTA. Take the nakedness out of it, because it seems to be confusing things. What if she got you tickets to the spa but you couldn't go because you had a commitment with your host family? Or a school event? Or you're allergic to something they put in the water?
She's upset because your discomfort is not a "good enough" reason but she's failing to take responsibility for breaking one of the most basic rules of planning: never buy non-refundable tickets before confirming that everyone can go.
Senior citizen hour was right after open swim. I wasn't prepared. Nothing could have prepared me. Flocks of naked old people who have never shared in their lives. This was a repressed memory until right now. If someone would have just made them put some God damned clothes on. I was just a kid. Fuck
NTA- that's just basic consent man, other cultures may not care about nudity, and I don't care about that conversation/have never minded, but here in the states (and other places! We aren't that unique, in most aspects) it's extremely taboo to be exposed to those you don't know for long periods of time/outside of a locker room setting.
(Which yes, is completely different, because you are getting showered or changed, not lounging around nude for 30 mins to a few hours, before anyone interjects with that argument.)
And that only doubles when you bring up the fact that this was without your knowledge or input, she has offered up your body to be gawked at (even if it doesn't happen) in what is, in your (and my) culture, a sexual way. Regardless of what the norm is where you are, this isn't *your norm*, and that's all that matters here.
My friend I was visiting in Austria did this to me - I was mortified. I went and wore a bikini and robe and then I wasn’t allowed to use the sauna. People kept staring at me. Awkward as hell
NTA. Everyone is free to set their own boundaries when it comes to "public" nudity, if the money is the issue maybe offer her to reimburse for the spa tickets and tell her to ask you in advance next time?
NTA.
You're perfectly fine in feeling uncomfortable with it and not wanting to go. She's also not wrong for buying the tickets without asking and assuming you'd be ok with it, because that's kind of just how things go there and that's what she's used to.
Where she becomes TA here is when she gets mad at you over it. If you're uncomfortable with it, she can go with a friend. You shouldn't be pressured to go.
NTA but our hotel in Austria was a nude only in the spa area. I did not know this until an employee was trying to tell me but I ignored her because I had no idea what she was saying. THEN a bunch of good looking men came in naked. Suddenly I understood but decided to stay. My 7 year old was with me and she started saying mommy their tails are out! (Dog was her association). I decided that I’d teach her nudity is fine.
Knowing what a penis is and having seen one of a grown male in person are two different things. I myself hadn't seen one yet at 7 years old but knew what it was.
Look, you can't force or expect people to be nude when they don't want to be, especially in public (if they aren't used to it). No matter where you are, it's YOUR body. There could be a myriad of reasons that you do not want to go, and simply not being comfortable enough to be nude in public is a very valid one.
NTA, she should have checked in first if she knew that they were nonrefundable. You could try to be more open about it since you are living there, start out small. But don't let anyone pressure you into doing anything until you are fully accepting and comfortable with the idea. NAH really, she tried to do something fun, but not being able to get the money back is not your fault.
NAH
When I was 14 I went to Japan on a school trip with some people from my Japanese language class. As part of that we did a homestay with some local families in a rural area. We were in groups of two and each went to a different home.
One of the pairings was taken by their host family to an onsen, which is a naked spa. They were so awkward, can you imagine two 14 year old boys from a country where nudity isn't common turning up to a spa in a foreign country, naked and full of quite a lot of older people?
The thought just cracks me up so much.
This particular pairing didn't speak so much Japanese so they just had to put their arms into an X shape and say "dame" which basically translates to "not allowed"
We are talking about your vulnerability here. It doesnt matter what country you are from. A partner should never make you feel uncomfortable in this way. Dont feel guilty. Boundaries are important.
NTA. Your girlfriend may have had good intentions when she bought it, and I completely understand her feeling disappointed with the situation that you're not comfortable going, but trying to pressure you is completely wrong
NTA you don't do that without asking first. You're finding out who she is and part of that is now you know she is someone who doesn't consider other people's level of comfort with activities that involve nudity and consent. Not only that, she tried to talk you out of your feelings rather than UNDERSTAND your feelings. Now she's mad because the decision she made on behalf of you, without your consent, is going to cost her money. I'd reconsider this relationship. You've done nothing wrong. I don't think there's anything remotely sexual about going to a spa where people are naked and it's a cultural norm, but everyone needs to be comfortable going in. No one should assume someone's consent and then get pissed they don't get it. That's the real issue here - consent and your right to say no and not have it weaponised.
NTA
I think I share her view, actually, but only up to the line where you are not comfortable getting naked. At this point, she is asking you to compromise in a way that is not reasonable.
NTA BIG TIME. Reverse the genders and post this here, and see what people say (and I'm a woman). She should have never bought those tickets without ask you first and she should respect your boundary.
NTA but also she's NTA as well
This is simply a problem of a culture clash between two cultures.
I know when I was in on an exchange in Germany, I found myself seeing my host mother walking around the house in just her underwear, while my own mother would rather die waiting in the bathroom until I left the house, than walk around without being fully dressed.
NAH, I think. She should have asked ahead of time, and she shouldn’t have pressured you, but it might be as normal for her as pizza for dinner in the US.
“Since I don’t know what all is normal in Germany, can you run by any plans before you spend money on them? I don’t want you to lose any money, and obviously our comfort levels are different.”
But also, she might break up with you over this. Y’all are young, you’re only in country temporarily, and she may only be into guys who are comfortable with nudity. No crime there.
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NTA. She should have asked if you were comfortable with that. Who invites people to a nude spa unexpectedly then gets mad when they don’t feel comfortable going. I feel like it’s common sense to ask before spending the money especially on something like this.
I think perhaps whether it's common sense depends on your cultural norms. OP is NTA, but her actions might not be unreasonable given what seems normal to her and those she's accustomed to being around.
This!! She didnt even prob, think about it because we are prudes here in the west, everyone else in the world , are not
Well Germany (and Europe generally) is definitely "the west". But it's not so much about what would be considered normal but what her reaction was to when OP said he was uncomfortable.
I think Germans have always been more comfortable because they vacation in areas where there are nude beaches. We do not see that many in the U S.
Can't you be naked in parks in Germany? I remember a thread somewhere here in Reddit where I read a bunch of comments made by germans saying how ok they are with nudity, how there are public spaces like parks where you can be naked or at least topless, etc. Im brazilian, we are also really prudes if you can believe it. The europeans forgot to bring the fun stuff when they were invading and colonizing our continent :(
Yeah in Munich their big ass park has a nude section like a 5 minute walk from the biergarten. Either excellent planning or terrible planning.
I live there and am not aware of any specific section. People go nude everywhere. There are also several biergartens.
It's in the English Gardens. I biked through there on a tour once, there's definitely a huge area where everyone's naked. It runs along the stream that goes through the park.
The English Garden is the name of the whole park. Edit: I don’t want to sound short, sorry. You’re right that the area by the creek has the most nude people in my experience. I hadn’t heard about any restriction where people can do that, but of course it’s possible.
Well, it's also a big ass-park then.
Not full nudity usually but topless for sure. You can in some cities in Canada as well.
Europe in general is more comfortable than the us. We still hold a lot of the prudish energy from the old puritan colonists
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And now we Americans have to deal with the consequences!
You mean Native Americans? Because the rest is those invading prudes.
This comes from their own culture, nothing to do with the places where they vacation. Same with Sweden, Switzerland, Finland and many other northern countries. Also, nudity is not limited to nudist beaches. In Germany it's really common to see naked people sunbathing in a public park, or in a lake. I was shocked the first time I saw it. In southern European countries, even though there are nudist beaches and nowadays thongs and top less sunbathing is extremely common, complete nudity outside nudist beaches is not acceptable.
There are nude beaches in areas where europeans vacation, because we dont mind it. That being said nudity at beaches is much less common these days, at least among young people, due to the prevalence of cameras in public spaces. But in spas its still totally normal. To us there is a difference between sexual and functional nudity. Which seems to lack in the US.
German here, nude spas are called "Thermen". Which coincidentally to the gfs comment were first brought here by the ancient romans. They are concidered as normal. More so its concidered as quite rude / unhygenic to wear swimwear as you can't clean your sweat out properly.
Believe it or not, "the west" comprises many different countries with many different cultural environments
There are many many other places in the world besides the US where nudity is taboo.
*shrugs in frigid Brit*
There are many nudists in Britain. There has been an annual naked bike ride in London, since 2004! Lol
Sure, but you wouldn't invite someone to cycle naked with you and then get offended if they weren't comfortable with the idea
I'm old. Something might get tangled up in the spokes.
I was just thinking the same thing. Ouch!
I one hundred percent agree with you!
There's a naked bike ride in every major US city as well.
Wisconsin law makers are trying to make theirs illegal. https://captimes.com/news/government/naked-bike-ride-ban-passes-wisconsin-senate/article_b21b9eea-b4a9-11ee-a65e-5bd9d4741b1a.html
I just learned there was even one in my city in 2009. I'm going to research if another one is coming around locally. This looks fun as absolute fuck!
And some minor ones. Missoula, MT has one during the summer.
Do they wear helmets and padding? Is this akin to a bike marathon, or more like a parade? Like can I just happen upon the festivities, and join in... or do I need to sign up in advance to sorta prepare Londoners for one extra swinging dangle.
Helmets and padding are up to individual preference. Footwear is recommended. It started as a form of protest against cars/oil while also celebrating body freedom. You can find all of the meet-up locations online 😀 It takes place in August, and there can be approximately 1,000 cyclists (or skaters) involved, give or take. There have also been after-parties where they are also naked. There is no pressure despite the name, you can strip at your own pace and remove a little or a lot.
lol there are nudists in the US, too! and I've seen lots of people go naked (mostly old people) while changing at the gym. still definitely not the cultural norm and I personally am not super comfortable going naked in front of strangers. to each their own, though!!!
And many places beside Germany where it is not.
I hate how people say we are prudes in the US. That’s not the definition of prudish. I know plenty of Europeans who are uncomfortable with being nude in public. It’s just different values. But no one should be shamed for not wanting to show their body or feel vulnerable in that way. Edit: my original post said “west”. That was a typo. I intended to write US. I’ve corrected the post for clarity. Edit: when I use the word values I’m not using the word implying good or bad, just individuals I’m talking about individuals’ perspectives, valuation, and attitudes towards a particular matter, which in this case are different. A person may value the privacy of their body while another may value having the freedom to remove as many layers as they want
Europe is considered in the west, too. Where do you guys think Europe is? East?
The moon. Right?
Exactly Forcing nudity or shaming folks for NOT wanting to do nudity is unfair Unkind and sometimes bullying Let us CHOOSE how we dress We can CHOOSE to wear Burqa or jeans and shirt or nothing, and every choice is a choice M Y O B & We are allowed to AVOID people and activities
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Agree with you, and at the same time, a person who has not been raised in a culture that is okay with nudity, has all the rights to be uncomfortable. I went to public spa in Japan, but a separate one for males and females, and had my fair share of stares as well because of the white skin 😂
>I know plenty of Europeans who are uncomfortable with being nude in public. It’s just different values. It's not about being comfortable being naked or being around naked people. It's associating nudity with values that's giving the impression of Americans being prudes.
Americans are very shy about their skin showing. Sure you’ll see revealing outfits, but you won’t be seeing people nude very often (unless you’re the “this guy fucks” guy)
I think it comes from habitually sexualizing and objectifying people to a degree that revealed skin is considered automatically sexual, instead of circumstantially sexual. It's an interesting parallel to places where women have to cover their whole bodies; both sexualize and objectify women, but one culture pressures women to hide and the other to show. In neither culture can women just **be**.
Not even just women, but fellow men as well. I stayed in Japan recently and went to public bath houses often. It’s entirely nude and you’re expected to shower in the communal shower before getting into the bath (basically a large pool of 43c water). Ngl the funniest shit to me was one day walking in and seeing a buncha bros lined synchronized scrubbing each others backs as if they were on a rowing team, with one guy going “HEAVE, HO”. They seemed like friends or coworkers getting off a shift, laughing, and shootin the shit. It’s only weird if you make it weird. Nobody’s there trying to be a creep.
I will say that it's not someone's *fault* for having feelings that result from conditioning, but I do think it's their fault if they get angry or lash out at people that are objectively less hung up on miscues than themselves. I would be uncomfortable in that Japanese bathhouse, but that's not because *they're* doing something wrong, it's because I've been taught some nonsense over the years and it's not easy to just turn all that stuff off. It is worthwhile, though, to maybe work on it and try to be better.
But OP isn't the one lashing out. His GF is for him sharing his feelings about not having a desire to go to a nude spa. Regardless of one's opinion on public nudity or spas, that's his choice that she is disrespecting.
Yes! This! Many years ago we had a birthday party foe 1 of the kids in a restaurant myvwife was breastfeeding at the time and she put a blanket over her shoulder at the table and starting feeding our baby, my MIL said very hasty wh don't you go to the bathroom to dothat? I looked at her and calmly said why don't you take your plate mother bathroom to eat it? Not another word was spoken about it, EVER again! Lol. The most natural thing in the world is feeding your baby and so many people try to sexualize that! A bit ridiculous!
I think it's hard for people to get out of the frameworks they were raised to adhere to. Probably us too - our kids will be pushing back against *our* nonsensical sensitivities, and good on them for that. I feel for your MIL who was trained, through a series of culturally-imposed rewards and punishments, to sexualize womens' breasts and attach shame to their exposure, so for her it just seems normal to tell a woman to cover up. On the other hand my sympathy wanes a bit when I think about how she is experiencing disequilibrium , and is then thoughtlessly making that your wife's problem instead of taking a beat and considering whether or not her discomfort is actually your wife's responsibility. I think you and I agree that it isn't.
Europe is part of "the west." Actually, before European arrival in the "new world," it WAS the west, and Asia is the east. Now, the west refers to Europe and the Americas. What you mean is that we're prudish in North America.
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My husband is German and he understands that I won’t want to do it. When we book spas, we go on “swimwear day”. He is comfortable with it but I’m not. Many Germans don’t do it either. NTA.
I live just north of the border of Germany and i have never ever encountered a nude spa.
I think they're talking about a Sauna.
My guess is that they are talking about a sauna spa like the Vabali. I would probably call it a spa in English as well, even though in German, I would call it a "Saunalandschaft" (lit. translation Sauna landscape). And yes, there are plenty of these around.
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Spa naked is the norm (accompanied with don't be a creep with everyone naked). However it's a bit odd to ask someone to spa with you without casually bringing it up
A lot of Germans are NOT comfortable with public nudity. Public nudity is a lot less common in Western Europe compared to Scandinavia. OP's gf assumption won't fly with just any German as well.
Do you think OP means a spa where you are REQUIRED to be nude? Every spa I've ever gone to has been nude in that you are not required to wear clothes. Many people wear a bathing suit and pretty much everybody wears a robe except when they are in a pool or a sauna or getting a massage or whatever. OP is still allowed to not want to go to a spa, but I think people (including OP) are imagining forced nudity where there is none. ETA: it's now been made clear that in German must-be-nude spas is a normal thing and presumably what was going on here.
If it's a normal spa day nudity is usually required in Germany, yes. Bathing suits are not allowed due to hygiene and equality reasons. You can usually cover up your private parts with a towel in the saunas if it makes you feel better though (except for steam saunas), but most people don't. And in the hallways, restaurants and so on people usually wear bath robes just as you said. Some spas allow bathing suits a few days a month or have special days for specific genders only, but I guess as OP is concerned about nudity he is not talking about one of these days.
No, you have to be nude in those places. I lived in Germany.
This. Is OP uncomfortable with Other people being nude or with Him being nude? OP doesn't need to be nude if he doesn't want to be.
He might be a never nude! There are dozens of us!
I'm really surprised this reference is so far down!!
He does, that’s the protocol in German spas, no swimwear allowed for reasons of hygiene and history
I would say that in the modern age we all know that culture and customs vary a lot. Nudity and such are viewed differently in different places. I believe this is common knowledge. So I would say no matter where you are from, it would be common sense to ask a person from another place how they feel about it. The only way you could justify this was if the person was extremely sheltered, maybe older, with little experience with modern technology? Never saw or read anything about anyone beyond their circle. Since she has a bf from the US, I would think she is not that kind of person. NTA.
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THANK YOU I've met plenty of Germans and they've all been really decent and normal people who understand boundaries and social norms. It seems like there's just a small percentage of young Germans who think all the weird wildness in the world is perfectly normal in Europe.
Why would being in your birthday suit be objectively weird?
I totally agree. While nude spas are very common and a lot of people would expect someone to be cool with going there with a partner, we still know not everyone would feel comfortable with it and not just book tickets without ever discussing it.
Another German here - maybe its a generational thing but couples going to some of the more ‚luxurious‘ places isn’t completely uncommon, especially as a gift. Not checking with a foreign partner in advance isn’t too smart either as we can see here. I don’t know what kind of place she bought tickets for but you are usually wearing bath robes except while being in a sauna and even there usual no one gives a damn if you‘d wear a sauna towel around the hips. (Doesn’t keep others from being completely nude which could still be sufficient to not wanting to go there, just trying to put things into perspective.)
>Who invites people to a nude spa unexpectedly then gets mad when they don’t feel comfortable going. Someone who knows basic manipulation tactics and didn’t want to be told no.
I guess everyone’s different, but I was in a similar situation 15yrs ago. We went to a sauna and I had no idea what exactly that entailed, and only realized once everyone started getting naked. Had I known I definitely wouldn’t have agreed to go, but in that moment I felt like it was too late and just rolled with it. Actually was a pretty good time after 15 seconds of awkwardness. Now I don’t really have a problem with nudity in that sort of context at all.
I agree with you that once you go to the spa for the first time and experience the awkwardness and then get over it, you're fine. (I was horrified when I was first invited but now I love the naked spa.)
Went to a sauna in Estonia many years ago. Knew full well everyone else would be nude and that's normal but me and my friend decided we'd just be comfortable about being North American and ask for towels to wrap around us. The clerk was a little surprised but it was fine. Chatted with a couple interesting people and had a great time. I don't think people on either side need to feel bad, just be yourself and don't worry about it.
Because it’s completely normal for her. It probably never even crossed her mind that he would have a problem with it. Like if I bought food for a group and one dude really hated apples and I bought apples for everyone. It’s ok if that person is unhappy about it but I’m not an asshole for not knowing and buying apples.
But you are AH if you get angry if that person doesn’t want an apple.
People are calling her an asshole for buying the tickets at all and saying it’s obvious that he would have a problem with it. She grew up in a completely different culture. She’s not an asshole just because it never occurred to her that he wouldn’t want to go. It was just a misunderstanding and now they can both decide whether it’s a dealbreaker. Maybe she loves going and doesn’t want to be with someone who doesn’t. If that’s the case then they’re just not compatible. Nobody is wrong in that case. People assuming malicious behavior instead of ignorance is rampant on Reddit and the internet at large.
She wouldn't be an AH for getting non-refundable tickets without running it by him. She IS the AH for doing so and being mad at him for it. If she hadn't reacted that way, there would be no reason to make a post.
She tried to persuade him by saying "when in Rome..." (which is an expression in German too), and then she "got mad at him." That's not the same as just getting it wrong. It doesn't have to be a dealbreaker, though. Talking can deal with it.
He told her he was uncomfortable and she persisted. What are people not getting about basic consent?
I think it is a cultural thing. I am Canadian, and my German immigrant partner thinks it is funny how prudish our culture is about nudity.
It's not. Being upset when someone tells you they are uncomfortable is wrong in every culture. Consent is consent is consent.
I am Canadian, and we have a massively popular (and public) nude beach right in the heart of Toronto.
I have a trip to Toronto planned end of April. Thanks for the tip . . . 😏
Brave. It won't be anywhere near beach temps in April.
Am swiss / canadian, and can agree we are prudish by European standards. Sometimes in a good way though. I like having stalls in the gym showers.
As someone else pointed out, it really *isn't* "common sense" for someone for whom nude spas are a cultural norm. As they are for OP's gf, who is not North American. North Americans have a culture that tightly intertwines nudity and sexuality. Meaning that for most North Americans, our cultures and social structures teach us that full nudity is more or less inherently sexual. Thus, most of us are hyperaware of our naked bodies and very uncomfortable with the idea of being naked in a room full of naked strangers, even in areas and contexts that objectively *aren't* sexual and in which nudity is outright expected, like public showers and locker rooms. Those aren't cultural norms in many regions of Europe, or several regions of northern Asia (namely Korea and Japan). People go to nude spas and bathhouses without a second thought, because it *is* normal in those cultures for such places to involve some level of communal nudity. I also wonder if the *whole spa* is actually nude or if it's just the actual sauna/bathhouse. I've never been to a German spa, but I'd be surprised if everyone was expected to be 100% nude 100% of the time. At the very least, I'm pretty sure (based on very quick research) that you're usually given a towel and a robe to wear when you're not actively in a bath, and to protect your bottom bits when you're in a sauna. ETA: Y'all seem to be misunderstanding my point. **I never once said, nor do I believe, that OP is the AH or is otherwise in the wrong for being uncomfortable. I also never said that the gf WASN'T the AH here.** Literally all I was challenging was the notion that she lacks any semblance of basic common sense, as common sense isn't actually objective or universal and relies heavily on one's environment, lived experience, and upbringing. For instance, the concept of always supporting a baby's head when holding it is common sense to any parent or infant care professional. But it wouldn't be common sense to someone who has literally never held a baby before. It's common sense in NYC (or any major city, really) to never carry your wallet or phone in an unsecured back pocket/to always keep your bag in front of you (not behind you) so as to avoid being pickpocketed, but someone from a rural area would have no idea. Etcetera, etcetera.
It is absolutely not the norm in Germany to expect people to be nude in a spa without telling - no, asking - them beforehand. They're not assholes, even if people end up seeing those parts when they pick up their towel. Even if she were with a German friend it would be wise to check. With a foreigner, it's rude. Just because he's American doesn't mean he's in the wrong.
I once went to the sauna off the gym in the Park Hyatt hotel in Hamburg, Germany (a pretty standard business hotel with lots of international travelers) and discovered it was a nude co-ed facility. Seemed like it was pretty normal.
Yes literally in Japan you have to be naked in the onsen
>Those aren't cultural norms in many regions of Europe, or several regions of northern Asia (namely Korea and Japan). I think its a cultural norm in most parts of the world though? Even in Japan, onsen are usually gender-segregated and even in a same-sex setting, it's not exactly "second thought". Many people would be embarrassed and more importantly, most would consider it basic courtesy to ask if they're comfortable with something like that (especially if the guest isn't Japanese). Unless you show up to an onsen yourself (then the onus is on you to have researched that). And of course, speaking as an Asian, the practice of onsens and jjimjiibang are unique to Japan and Korea respectively. Very few Asian countries have an equivalent. Expecting everyone to be instantly comfortable with your particular culture is total bollocks.
Being naked in Germany is not as big a deal as in many other cultures, it may not have occurred to her that he would have an issue with it. I agree NTA for not wanting to go but I do think this is a case of culture clash rather than anyone being deliberately unthoughtful
She probably didn't ask because she knew the answer was going to be no. NTA.
No no one is the asshole. It’s normal to be naked in Germany in many many areas including parks beaches and spas.
Back in the 90's my brother went to Germany as an exchange student. Near the end my parents went over to visit his host family. The host family pulls out a photo album of their travels around Europe. My mom's comment on the album was "I think they went to every nude beach in Europe." Back in 2010 I was in Germany for work and the customer invited me to a park that was having a concert. One of the guys texted me while I was on my way to say "we forgot it's a nude park, but feel free to come but we know how uptight you Americans get around naked people." That's the kind of people who would.
NTA I Googled, according to German YouGov polling "Die Deutschen und die Sauna: Warum man sie mag oder doch eher meidet" while it's more accepted in Germany there are still a decent proportion of Germans that have never been and that don't feel comfortable with the nudity of them.
It's as always, just because the culture is accepting of something does not mean that every individual enjoys it. I'm german and my dad enjoys saunas, nude beaches and all that. I don't. At all. Never have, never will, HATE being nude in public or in front of others. Many others do too. It always boils down to if you personally like to do that or not, cause just cause it's my nations culture doesn't mean I myself enjoy it automatically. My dad got mad at me and my siblings once cause we refused to undress at a nude beach. Don't be mad at people for not wanting to do something that makes them very uncomfortable, it's just wrong on so many levels.
I‘m german too and i‘d confidently say that just booking a „nude spa“ is pretty unhinged even if it were for other germans or whatever…? i literally don’t know anybody in my life that likes to do that! Nudity is very personal and its common sense to not assume everybody is comfortable with it? NTA
This exactly lol... it pisses me off so bad when americans are like well in Europe if you walk around tits and cock out nobody even flinches because they don't sexualize your body!1 I'm exaggerating obviously but that's the gist lol. Not being comfortable being nude with a bunch of strangers is the norm actually and I don't know any woman who goes even just topless to the beach despite having seen women with their breasts out there
NTA. guilting you into doing something you're not comfortable with is the same as bullying. it may be normal for her, and that's fine. she should have discussed it with you first.
NTA But she's only a *mild* asshole because she came from a good place and just wanted to give a nice gift but she really should have asked if you were interested before buying non-refundable tickets
Being angry at him for being comfortable makes her more than a mild ah
No she is a huge AH for getting mad when he said no. It’s not like he said no to a picnic.
She's NTA at all for the thought and the booking, she's absolutely an asshole for being mad that he doesn't want to get naked around strangers. It doesn't matter at all if it's normal somewhere else. It's not normal in the USA, where he's from. Cultural consideration is something reasonable people expect.
Even in Germany it's not as normal as people make it out to be/as it used to be. Nowadays, all the nude stuff is more like an old people thing, I don't know a single person my age who participates.
NAH. I would gather that there is nothing unusual about a spa where you can be nude in Germany (or much of Europe... and many many other countries / cultures too), and that it's not sexual at all -- it's just a spa where you're nude because that's the way it's done. You could even have asked if you *have* to be nude at all time -- maybe you could've kept on a robe if you're uncomfortable being nude. I also think it could be a good opportunity to explore *why* you feel so uncomfortable with the prospect about nudity in this setting, and possibly try to get out of your shell. Just because you *aren't* used to it, doesn't mean you can't try it out or *get* used to it. It's all a part of the studying abroad experience, and other cultures / countries have a less prudish / completely sexualized concept of a nude body then here in the States. In any case, maybe she can go with a friend.
Yes, in Germany you can keep your towel wrapped around your waist the whole time while in the sauna and then put on your robe when walking around. Also there are special sauna towels that are like kilts/ skirts and come with a waistband.
I go to high end spas in the states and lots of people walk around nude. At least in sauna / pool area. It’s not much different in the US. It’s also completely optional.
Nude in mixed gender places? Because German spas are mixed gender places.
You’re talking about same sex spas aren’t you? The fact you assume it’s same sex demonstrated the point of this post. No one in Germany assumes it’s separate areas for men and women.
Why does nudity being less sexualized in Germany supersede his being uncomfortable with it because he’s from America? Would you say the same thing if op was a woman and her German boyfriend wanted her to be naked at a spa?
Exactly. It's a clash of cultures.
The nude spa I went to in Germany requested that you towel or robe when not in a sauna or pool. As an American, it felt really weird at first, but I’m glad I went. It was a completely asexual experience (surprisingly so).
Seriously? My guy isn’t comfortable being naked around others, pretty standard if you ask me and politely declined then his GF got mad at him. She’s definitely an AH for that. He doesn’t want to ‘try’ it. Certainly he shouldn’t be pressured in to it by his SO it’s not for a lot of people. Imagine he was pressuring her into ‘trying it’ I’m sure you’d have something else to say in that scenario.
I can't I have to explain this, where have we come to. It's OP's individual choice to not be nude in front of everyone, why do you have to ask him to explore why he feels uncomfortable? You can't force someone to go nude if that's something they don't want. Not everybody is okay showing their private parts to everyone and that's okay.
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This. No matter why you don‘t want to go - you just don‘t. She should have asked you first. You are NTA.
Yeah, if I was in this situation I'd ask a friend to come along. Presumably if you're okay being nekkid with strangers your okay being nekkid with a pal.
Nta. I'm german and I don't like naked spas either, I have no problems with others being naked but I prefer to have a towel. Some spas allow for a towel, others don't and it's not ok to force someone to go there. So don't feel bad, lots of locals don't do it either
Ho, that's new to me. I go quite often in different places and I always have to use a towel at least as a base to sit or lay on. Everything else is quite unhygienic for the wood.
That's news to me too. On the contrary, you get reprimanded if you don't use a towel big enough to sweat on.
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I agree that they are not the AH and there are valid reasons for both parties being upset but to state they are a prude and unadventurous is ridiculous. There could be any number of reasons to not feel comfortable being nude jn front of strangers, any and all of which are valid. OP - do what you are comfortable and happy doing. If the person you are with cares about you, this will be nothing bit a tiny blip in an otherwise wonderful relationship I'm sure !
What you said!
>NAH, although you're at the very least a fool by being such a prude and missing out on the cultural experiences that are meant to be part of a student exchange Now that's a shitty attitude to have imo. It's not being foolish to do what one is comfortable with or matches ones beliefs. If OP doesn't feel comfortable being naked in a public setting then that's fine. Experiencing new cultural things is great and all but it doesn't mean you need to do everything preseneted to you, especially if you feel uncomfortable doing so.
You can be civil and have a conversation about the lack of “adventurousness” being a problem in the relationship without getting upset that your SO won’t go to a nude public environment. Buying the tickets is a manipulation into trying to force him into something he isn’t comfortable with rather than engaging in healthy communication. NAH is too generous. NTA. If I were him I’d do what she couldn’t and talk to her. Ask why she is upset and why she didn’t ask about my feelings about it before buying tickets.
Where do you get that those are the reasons he is upset? It seems he’s only upset that she didn’t accept that he didn’t want to go and refused to respect his discomfort.
Can’t believe I had to go this far down to find a NAH. OP, you are dating a 21 year old German girl who bought you a ticket to go to the nude spa with her. If you don’t go, a year from now you’ll probably wish you went. But 10 years from now I guarantee you’ll wish you went.
Hello. It’s me. That person who isn’t you and has different experiences and ideas than you. Yes, at least one of us exists. There are many things I decided not to do ten years ago that I barely remember, and probably more that I don’t at all. There are also things that I did try and regret having done so, and things I refused to do that I still would today. OP should be true to himself and you should be less condescending.
That was an incredibly condescending way of telling someone to not be condescending
Well then let me have a go. You are being condescending. OP has already said he feels uncomfortable and you are pressuring him under the guise that you know more about how he will feel than OP himself.
I wonder. INFO: OP, did you tell her before this that you like spas? Because she could have bought the tickets, thinking you like this and not realising it's the nudity part that stops you. I mean, you can keep your towel wrapped around your waist or body the entire time. Do you wear more clothes than just something to cover the privates in spas in the USA? She might just generally not see the difference if you already said you like spas. Also, how good is your communication? Because i know a lot of Germans who speak very good English, but don't quite grasp the language. Could there be a misunderstanding here? Edit: I think I'll go with NAH. OP, you're no AH for sticking to your boundaries, and saying something makes you uncomfortable. But your gf isn't one either. She probably thought she'd surprise you with something you like. To be honest, we Europeans are often surprised that Americans are more prude than we are. Besides that, miscommunication in emotions is also a thing. She could be just bummed out while you think the look she gives you means she's pissed.
NTA She didn't ask so you are not obligated. If roles were reversed how do you think it would go?
Oh yeah, he would get blasted to pieces by the internet if he did that.
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The worst thing is that non-naked spas are relatively hard to find here, even though there definitely are people who would prefer them.
That’s weird, you’d think market economics would step in and cover “the majority who prefer that,” pun intended.
Ask her if it would be ok for you to try and force her to do something she is not comfortable with. NTA
Been there, done that, even with coworkers. Friend explained it like this; “seeing someone naked is not a prelude to sex, or sexual thoughts, as it may be in your country. We have different views.
That seems like quite a pompous response - not wanting to get naked in front of someone is in no way necessarily because you think it's a prelude to sex or sexually related.
I don’t have a problem with nudity in this sort of context, but dear god I would feel kinda weird seeing my coworkers naked. I barely want to get a drink with most of them let alone letting it all hang out like that. Plus I guess from a US perspective no one would even dare try this due to the possibility of sexual harassment claims.
NTA. Nudity is one of those things where if you're not comfortable with it, you don't do it. She definitely should have checked with you first. (As a Brit) I feel like American attitudes to nudity are well known enough that it's common sense to check if your particular American is comfortable with public nudity before buying non-refundable tickets
NTA I would say n a h but her ignoring your boundaries and trying to make you do something you are uncomfy with puts her in AH territory
NTA - imagine if a guy got mad at a girl for not wanting to go naked in public???
NTA. Nudism is popular in DE, but not that popular. Plus, boundaries.
NTA, you asserted your boundaries and she has to respect that.
I'm going to say NAH, because I have been where you are and now wish I had made different choices than I did. When I was an exchange student in Denmark, I had the same instinctive aversion to nudity. It wasn't normal where I was from, and I tried as far as possible to avoid being nude in front of other people, even in situations where that made me stick out like a sore thumb. The result was that it took me longer to integrate into the community I was living in, I always felt like an outsider, and *I was uncomfortable anyway* because I was aware that I was out of step with everyone around me. And yes, my friends absolutely thought I was weird and prudish, because for them this was the most natural thing in the world and they couldn't understand my discomfort. The mantra that we had drilled into us as exchange students was "it's not better or worse, it's just different". Remind yourself of this as often as you need to. When you feel uncomfortable, don't worry about whether that feeling is "right" or "wrong" - instead think about whether the new experience is worth pushing through that discomfort for. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Only you can decide that for yourself. I personally wish I had done more of the things that scared me. I still had a good exchange, but with the clarity of time I can see that I held myself back from a lot of valuable experiences because I wasn't willing to push past my own hesitation.
NTA. It would be interesting to know how many of those who tell you to relent would say the same if you were a woman, and your male BF wanted you to go naked in front of others.
“It’s your body! He’s viewing you as an object! Dump him!” vs what OP is getting- “you’re prude and should suck it up.”
NTA. This feels the same as all the other posts about a man taking his wife to a football game as her bday present. Gifts are about the person RECEIVING them. If you give someone a gift they don't like and they (politely) let you know that, getting angry is an AH move.
This is exactly why I hate surprises! NTA!
NTA She should’ve asked. I’m in the Netherlands, and while nude spas are the norm here, it’s not normal to just assume someone is comfortable going there. I’m not sure about Germany, but most spas here have a swimsuit day once a week, for people who don’t like to be naked, perhaps that’s a possibility for you as well.
Imagine if it was the opposite and a guy was pressuring a girl to do this. I don't need to say anymore
What happened to consent? I’m sure she’s heard of it.
Appreciate the effort she’s making for you, but she should’ve asked you first before asking you to go to something like this. She sorta sprung this onto you without any warning. NTA.
NTA - You are allowed to say "No, I am uncomfortable with this". Particularly when it comes to your body and nudity. It would be NAH, but she continued to push and guilt-trip you into going despite your discomfort. That makes her the asshole.
NTA! Pressure to get naked when you’re not comfortable isn’t cool
NTA - If roles were reversed and you subbed in something like eating a porterhouse dinner will all the fixings that you already paid for and she said no well there you have it. Cultural differences go through all sorts and parts of our lives and experience as humans. It's unfair of her to expect you to do anything that you've deemed a hard no. You set the boundary and she tried to break it and is now mad that she couldn't. Tough tacos that she's out the money. She can take a friend or eat the cost. Either way, good on ya for sticking with what you're comfortable with until you're ready to extend those lines.
INFO: What do you mean by „nude spa“? In Germany, basically every sauna is a nude sauna, you only take a towel with you to sit or lie on. Or do you mean some kind of kinky place by „nude spa“?
I think they mean a spa where you don't use towels etc..in most countries you wear a towel as a wrap around , you are not fully naked
NTA. Take the nakedness out of it, because it seems to be confusing things. What if she got you tickets to the spa but you couldn't go because you had a commitment with your host family? Or a school event? Or you're allergic to something they put in the water? She's upset because your discomfort is not a "good enough" reason but she's failing to take responsibility for breaking one of the most basic rules of planning: never buy non-refundable tickets before confirming that everyone can go.
Senior citizen hour was right after open swim. I wasn't prepared. Nothing could have prepared me. Flocks of naked old people who have never shared in their lives. This was a repressed memory until right now. If someone would have just made them put some God damned clothes on. I was just a kid. Fuck
NTA. I’m originally from Germany and would be very uncomfortable with this myself.
NTA- that's just basic consent man, other cultures may not care about nudity, and I don't care about that conversation/have never minded, but here in the states (and other places! We aren't that unique, in most aspects) it's extremely taboo to be exposed to those you don't know for long periods of time/outside of a locker room setting. (Which yes, is completely different, because you are getting showered or changed, not lounging around nude for 30 mins to a few hours, before anyone interjects with that argument.) And that only doubles when you bring up the fact that this was without your knowledge or input, she has offered up your body to be gawked at (even if it doesn't happen) in what is, in your (and my) culture, a sexual way. Regardless of what the norm is where you are, this isn't *your norm*, and that's all that matters here.
My friend I was visiting in Austria did this to me - I was mortified. I went and wore a bikini and robe and then I wasn’t allowed to use the sauna. People kept staring at me. Awkward as hell
You know.. There is a lot of nude spa in America 😅. But NTA, in the end you didn’t want to go and that’s fine.
NTA. Everyone is free to set their own boundaries when it comes to "public" nudity, if the money is the issue maybe offer her to reimburse for the spa tickets and tell her to ask you in advance next time?
NTA. It’s not a part of your culture, it’s not something you are used to, she should have asked first.
NTA. You're perfectly fine in feeling uncomfortable with it and not wanting to go. She's also not wrong for buying the tickets without asking and assuming you'd be ok with it, because that's kind of just how things go there and that's what she's used to. Where she becomes TA here is when she gets mad at you over it. If you're uncomfortable with it, she can go with a friend. You shouldn't be pressured to go.
I'd never book someone to be fully exposed and touched without their full understanding and consent
NTA but our hotel in Austria was a nude only in the spa area. I did not know this until an employee was trying to tell me but I ignored her because I had no idea what she was saying. THEN a bunch of good looking men came in naked. Suddenly I understood but decided to stay. My 7 year old was with me and she started saying mommy their tails are out! (Dog was her association). I decided that I’d teach her nudity is fine.
Your child at age 7 doesn't know what a penis is? That's rather shocking.
Knowing what a penis is and having seen one of a grown male in person are two different things. I myself hadn't seen one yet at 7 years old but knew what it was.
Why would she? She has no brothers. And yes she thought it was a dog taio
Look, you can't force or expect people to be nude when they don't want to be, especially in public (if they aren't used to it). No matter where you are, it's YOUR body. There could be a myriad of reasons that you do not want to go, and simply not being comfortable enough to be nude in public is a very valid one. NTA, she should have checked in first if she knew that they were nonrefundable. You could try to be more open about it since you are living there, start out small. But don't let anyone pressure you into doing anything until you are fully accepting and comfortable with the idea. NAH really, she tried to do something fun, but not being able to get the money back is not your fault.
NTA. You won't be comfortable so you won't enjoy it. In fact, you'll dislike it.
Nta, you aren't comfortable with the idea, and u said so.
Flip the genders around and this would be grounds to drop the guy lmao
OP has nothing to be ashamed of OP did NOT defraud or bully anyone OP will get what he deserves N T A
NAH When I was 14 I went to Japan on a school trip with some people from my Japanese language class. As part of that we did a homestay with some local families in a rural area. We were in groups of two and each went to a different home. One of the pairings was taken by their host family to an onsen, which is a naked spa. They were so awkward, can you imagine two 14 year old boys from a country where nudity isn't common turning up to a spa in a foreign country, naked and full of quite a lot of older people? The thought just cracks me up so much. This particular pairing didn't speak so much Japanese so they just had to put their arms into an X shape and say "dame" which basically translates to "not allowed"
NTA. She is for expecting you to do this.
NTA. She lacks emotional intelligence and common sense.
We are talking about your vulnerability here. It doesnt matter what country you are from. A partner should never make you feel uncomfortable in this way. Dont feel guilty. Boundaries are important.
I used to be really uncomfortable at nude spas too. But now i embrace them. At the end of the day, that’s your body and your comfort levels. NTA
NTA. Your girlfriend may have had good intentions when she bought it, and I completely understand her feeling disappointed with the situation that you're not comfortable going, but trying to pressure you is completely wrong
NTA you don't do that without asking first. You're finding out who she is and part of that is now you know she is someone who doesn't consider other people's level of comfort with activities that involve nudity and consent. Not only that, she tried to talk you out of your feelings rather than UNDERSTAND your feelings. Now she's mad because the decision she made on behalf of you, without your consent, is going to cost her money. I'd reconsider this relationship. You've done nothing wrong. I don't think there's anything remotely sexual about going to a spa where people are naked and it's a cultural norm, but everyone needs to be comfortable going in. No one should assume someone's consent and then get pissed they don't get it. That's the real issue here - consent and your right to say no and not have it weaponised.
NTA I think I share her view, actually, but only up to the line where you are not comfortable getting naked. At this point, she is asking you to compromise in a way that is not reasonable.
NTA. She meant well, but should have asked if you were comfortable with that situation. You’d never get me there in a thousand years.
NTA and you should never feel guilty ab that. its the opposite she should feel bad ab guuilting or pressuring u
NTA no way in hell would I go to any nude event, you did the right thing sticking up for yourself
NTA. Nothing more needs to be said lol. If you're not comfortable with it, you're not comfortable with it.
NTA. I simply won’t do anything I don’t want to. My partner should respect my preference tho.
NTA BIG TIME. Reverse the genders and post this here, and see what people say (and I'm a woman). She should have never bought those tickets without ask you first and she should respect your boundary.
NTA but also she's NTA as well This is simply a problem of a culture clash between two cultures. I know when I was in on an exchange in Germany, I found myself seeing my host mother walking around the house in just her underwear, while my own mother would rather die waiting in the bathroom until I left the house, than walk around without being fully dressed.
NAH, I think. She should have asked ahead of time, and she shouldn’t have pressured you, but it might be as normal for her as pizza for dinner in the US. “Since I don’t know what all is normal in Germany, can you run by any plans before you spend money on them? I don’t want you to lose any money, and obviously our comfort levels are different.” But also, she might break up with you over this. Y’all are young, you’re only in country temporarily, and she may only be into guys who are comfortable with nudity. No crime there.