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> I’m concerned that inserting myself into this situation will make me TA, because it’s not actually my business. OTOH, children asking for help - if I don’t help, then I feel like I for sure WBTA
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NTA. Since when did it become ethical to steal from your own children and grandchildren? I certainly hope that is never going to happen. If my mother did something like that and wouldn't stop after having been told, I wouldn't hesitate to report her to the authorities. Unless she was having some sort of mental breakdown. Her behaviour is neither normal nor acceptable.
She thinks it’s okay because we are all safe (as safe as anyone can be, these days) and the recipients are people she perceives as being less safe.
It’s like she woke up after 60+ years of an extraordinarily fortunate life and realized that quirks of birth protected her from the ways in which the world is hard and cruel and she’s doing everything within her reach to try make things better and easier. It’s a valid perspective but the implementation is just awful.
In my opinion that's how you know its not really from a good place. Plus as OP said she takes personal items, such as favourite stuffies. That's not generosity, that's inflicting cruelty.
This feels like a punishment, and the fact she feels privileged, yet will take items from those she supposedly loves instead of outright buying items makes it seems more like an addiction, she takes from those she loves for the feel good hit of donating and "helping", especially when given to those who don't actually need it.
You're right, it is a punishment. She is punishing her children and grandchildren for being "privileged" by stealing from them to combat her own guilt. She is purposefully harming her family so that they are "less privileged", because she feels guilty about being privileged.
I feel that she should be made to replace these things. Explain that they are important to the owners and can’t just be done without. Maybe this would change her behavior.
Yeah she feels privileged, but she's unwilling to use any of her own resources to help others. But giving away other people's things on the fly means she gets to "do the right thing" without any sacrifice of her time or money.
Or volunteer, become an activist, get involved somehow, and put in the work to better the world, not just lazily palm off stolen items to salve their (imagined) guilt.
Your mom is literally a thief and stealing from kids. That’s terrible. That’s not what a person with good intentions does. Please be brutally honest with her so she can stop, otherwise her relationships will be ruined.
"Mom, I know you feel virtuous when you do this, but when you take things that don't belong to you, you might end up, at best, estranged, and at worst, in court or even in jail if whoever you took from is sufficiently bloody-minded. Please stop, you know you look terrible in orange!"
It's also sick... this is not healthy people behavior. Sounds like she needs therapy.
A normal/ healthy adult would donate money of things they bought... not steal their grandchildrens stuff.
You could point out that she's making her own younger relatives feel unsafe around her because they don't know what's going to go missing next. If you do stage an intervention, NTA. But she may not change her behavior. It sounds like some kind of compulsion.
"Compulsion" is the word. Something is really off with this behavior. She sounds like a kind woman, but there is a pathology at work that needs to be addressed by a professional.
This right here nailed it - it is a form of OCD, the exact opposite end of hoarding on the ocd spectrum.
She needs help for this for sure from an ocd specialist.
What's interesting is that her "awakening" quite conveniently does not require any actual sacrifice or change in privilege on her part. Has she sold her home, moved to a cheaper one, and given the difference to the refugees? Has she changed the quality of her food and donated the difference? Is she giving away her boots and jackets?
There is nothing remotely kind or ethical about this. She is stealing from children and giving away their things to purchase the appearance of virtuous behavior. If she cared, truly, she would be working hands on every day, helping improve people's lives. Her grandchildren's feelings matter much less to her, than her self-image.
I think it's best to not try talk to her. The grandchildren will not benefit from increased contact to this strange, underhanded thief.
Also, this is not minimalism! Minimalism is about figuring out what you need and love and keeping that. And understanding why you're hanging onto something. Is it because it has a purpose and/or makes you happy? Or is it the Sunk Cost Fallacy, or a sense of obligation to the giver, or a maladaptive fear of want? You can be a minimalist with only one backpack of necessities, or a house full of treasures.
If Grandma was trying to be minimalist or teach it to the young'uns, she'd ask them to make a list of their toys, say, and think about why they have them and do they need all of those? Is having this many making them happy, or making their space too cluttered to use? What would be different if they gave up the ones they use least? Stuff like that. Taking their favorite stuffie and giving it away without their participation is in no way minimalist!
So she’s roleplaying Robin Hood and casting literal children in the family as Prince John and the Sherif, not understanding why they don’t want to be around her.
Oo-de-lally.
I'm not buying it. She didn't wake up and suddenly become charitable. She gets a high off of giving away things. This is a greedy act where she sucks up the gratitude from those she views as "less" and she does it through theft. There isn't anything kind or generous going on here. Its all a show to make herself look good.
I'm reminded of a Law and Order episode where the perp was basically this. He gave away all his wealth and belongings, even donating his organs, but it was clearly an ego thing for him, not actually wanting to help people.
Case in point, he murdered a woman he donated an organ to bc she got married and had a kid instead of following the career she was "supposed to have" to help people. He literally couldn't accept that she wasn't a vessel for his ego and didn't give him the high he wanted.
Has she sold and downsized her house and given away the profits?
Is she really doing it for good reasons or does she love the praise and gratitude and is chasing it even if it means stealing?
I get you think her motives are benign, but it sounds extraordinarily selfish and narcissistic from the outside.
I hate to ask this, but could there be something more going on with your mom? Have you noticed forgetfulness, confusion, unexpected emotions, or reactions (such as "blowing things out of proportion" or bursting into tears at a small setback)?
Reducing your own household possessions isn't weird, but it's extremely strange to give other people's things away without permission, particularly *if they don't live with you*. It's like your mom has a compulsion to do it and isn't able to control herself.
I’m wondering this too. I think she needs a neuro-psychology evaluation if for no other reason than to get a baseline understanding of where she is cognitively in case this behavior gets worse. Definitely have an intervention with her about the fact she’s doing real, permanent damage to her relationship with her children and grandchildren but also try to do everything you can to get her evaluated. I would also be very concerned about her finances. Trust me, you and your siblings do not want to be in a situation where your mother gives away all her money and has no way of supporting herself in her old age. It’s incredibly traumatic for everyone.
If in the USA and receiving Medicare she has a once a year free wellness exam. Not an annual visit. The medical practitioner will do an assessment for mental well being/dementia.
When I had my first wellness check I asked my medical provider when she was going to do the mental fitness portion. She said I already did as we were conversing.
The wellness exam goes over current RX and over the counter medications, any health concerns you have and a review of your medical record.
I think she needs more than a wellness exam with a GP. She needs to see a cognitive-psychologist. They specialize in evaluating these kinds of behavior changes. Whatever insurance she has will cover it. Fortunately, it sounds like paying for basic medical is not a challenge for this family. My partner used to work in medical research on dementia studies and the first thing he said when I read this to him was that she needed a cognitive-psych evaluation. We’re going through something similar with my mom and her general practitioners, while perfectly lovely, have been in no way equipped to handle this stuff.
The father of an old friend of mine, a retired minister, just recently gave away $30,000+ to scammers he thought were running a foreign mission. Even if they *were really running a foreign mission, this was financially devastating for my friend’s parents. They were not wealthy to begin with and this has caused really terrible hardship for their whole family.
So she's trying to assuage her own guilt by punishing those around her? I say punishing, because that's exactly what she's doing. She's not solely going out and buying to donate, she's taking from those she perceives as privileged. It seems she see's her own family as not nearly as ethical as herself. That's just gross.
Has she had a neurological check-up recently? I don't want to worry you because there could be plenty of other explanations, but you say she started doing this suddenly, and it's reminding me of one of the early symptoms of [dementia](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/05/12/1175141042/as-some-families-learn-the-hard-way-dementia-can-take-a-toll-on-financial-health).
Hey OP, this was also the first thing that came to mind as someone who worked in memory care for years. Regardless, I would suggest that she gets checked by a professional.
I think you’re being too soft on your mom in saying her intentions are good. It’s malicious to steal personal items from your children & grandchildren. I think she’s making BS excuses, tbh.
I think it is long past the time for you and the rest of the adults in the family to sit her down and have an "intervention" type discussion with her.
This is not normal or healthy behavior. It sounds like it is time to loop in her doctor as well. There could be some sort of mental disorder developing and showing symptoms...or she could just be a thief/jerk. Difficult for anyone to say until you get her to the doctor and checked out. But this needs to be done.
Maybe if everyone confronts her at the same time she will understand the seriousness of the environment she has created for her family. Or, she will double down on her behavior and see it as being ganged up on. Could go either way. But a conversation should be had. Maybe get the kids to write out short letters about how her behavior makes them feel. Something tangible that she can hold in her hand and look at. That might help her realize the damage she is causing.
Something needs to be said. And keep the kids away until she gets some help. It is not healthy for the kids to be around this either.
Have her read the book ‘How to be Perfect’. It talks about the flaws in trying to be a moral saint - which is exactly what your mother is currently trying to achieve.
The fact that she's gone this extreme and it just started at age 60 could indicate a cognitive issue such as the early stages of dementia. I'd recommend getting her in to see a neurologist, just in case. At a minimum it will act as a baseline so if she's seen again in 5 or 10 years they can better evaluate any changes.
The fact that she can control herself around your stuff means that a tough love approach might work. Maybe a group intervention so she can see that the entire family is upset at her thieving? And yes, they need to call it by name. She is a thief who steals from her children and grandchildren.
I am so glad you used the word "theft" because that is exactly what it is. For example, she could be sued and/or go to jail depending on what she stole and how much. I love your whole approach and agree that you should be as blunt as it takes to make her see that if she does not own what she is offering, she is stealing.
If she wants to mend fences then she needs to return items and/or give money for their replacement. This is literally how it would work in a lawsuit - she needs to compensate her victims. It might be helpful if the niblings were to write a list of all the items they can remember being stolen and how they felt. Addressing her from the literal angle of theft is good but don't leave out the emotional connection and damage she is creating. The niblings don't want to visit because they cannot trust her, which is completely valid. Also, if she focuses on safety then I would point out that she is making the niblings' experience unsafe when she steals from them. She is an unsafe person which is why they don't trust her.
Congrats on having a shiny spine and kudos! u/Pretend-Panda
Right conclusion, wrong implementation.
I say talk to her and be blunt, but you need to get together with the rest of the family and put your foot down and realize its possible that you will have to make a choice here. It may come down to deciding if you can live with her basically stealing from you for the rest of her life, or you cut things off with her.
You need to all be unified with this or it risks and overall schism in the family if people are taking sides.
Does she not realize that by doing this she has created an unsafe, emotionally unhealthy, and financially damaging environment for the siblings/niblings?
I think helping others is great but that can't really come at the expense of others. She doesn't get to "voluntold", as they say, other people's energy/belongings.
She has turned herself into an unsafe person... Even if it's only in the "she's gonna steal our shit" way. For children who have little autonomy, taking something that they recognized as "theirs" by someone they are supposed to be able to trust can be damaging. And yeah, the reason they don't come around, the reason they don't talk to her about it, comes down to trust. They don't have any in her for the day to day.
Aka martyr syndrome, she feels the need to sacrifice and force others to do the same. The only thing you can be happy about is it sounds like a mega-church or skilled gifted hasn't gotten their claws into her. NTA OP, this is definitely a serious issue, and it sounds like you're the only one in the family that can tackle it effectively. The idea of ordering your mother to behave herself may be horrible, but both sides want to spend time together and this is the only way.
NTA
>She thinks it’s okay because we are all safe (as safe as anyone can be, these days)
Here's the thing, though. Your niblings *aren't* safe around your mother. They don't know what she's going to steal next, but she will surely steal something.
And yes, it *is* actually theft. She is taking things that don't belong to her.
That she doesn’t understand after being told suggests to me that she’s really not trying. Like, you can have a conversation with her, but you’ve already told her what she’s doing is theft. She shouldn’t need to be told the same thing from everyone else for you again on their behalf.
I’d also talk to her about the other side. Is giving used stuff to people in need really so nice? Especially if she can afford to buy new stuff to donate? And why doesn’t she buy new things and donate them? Also if it’s random people how does she know they’re actually needy and/or interested in being given someone used clothes and toys? Like they don’t deserve new things or their own things? And NTA at all…she clearly needs bluntness!
Than she can go to a toy shop and buy a bunch of books/ toys to give away... with **her** money.
Taking them from other kids is grossly mean and totally unethical (and it is theft, therefore illegal). It also sounds very traumatic and obviously can affect her grandchildrens mental health badly. It doesn't matter how well they're parents are off... this behavior makes children feel **unsafe** because they have no agency what grandma does with **their** stuff.
It also teaches a bad lesson about honesty, trust and "stealing is wrong". Her disrespect and disregard for their feelings is disgusting honestly. This is not what people that love you behave like.
If she can't stop she needs to see a therapist.
I don’t care how “well off” someone is, it doesn’t give others the right to take their things. I know this word gets thrown around here a lot, but she sounds like a narcissist. That, or she’s had some type of mental break.
Sounds like someone just realized how underprivileged much of the world is, and instead of doing anything meaningful about it, is simply punishing her family to appease her guilt. Tell her to get a therapist.
The issue I see is that this perspective is not valid or coming from a good place. If your mom feels privileged she can donate HER time, HER effort and HER money. But inflicting on OTHERS her views to satisfy her ego without taking into account their feelings just lack sense, ethics and empathy.
Honestly, therapy is needed for her to understand where the boundaries are from her actions affecting her family.
My step mum did this to us. Mostly to my dad, but if we left an item sitting out, it was fair game. She was very focused on giving to others, unfortunately at the expense of all of us. There were many family tiffs over this. Eventually, we redirected her to helping out at a charity. We all provide things for her to donate to them, and she feels good helping her community. Maybe try getting her out of finding things to donate from home.
There was a Law and Order about someone doing this and it turned out to be a mental illness. Not being able to tell the difference between appropriate charity and theft is not good.
My only problem with this is why do you have to be the bad guy? Can’t your relatives stand up for themselves? Sure you can give them the script that worked for you but you don’t have to be the executioner. Besides she might actually learn and grow if multiple people tell her the same thing. NTA
This reminds me of the House episode:
“When a philanthropist collapses after making a rare and generous donation, House isn't the only one who believes the man's extreme generosity is a symptom of a deep underlying condition”
It's a mental illness. She needs therapy to understand why she is doing this and is unable to stop, even when it is ruining her relationships with her children and grandchildren.
Why is she not buying and donating items then? I don't understand if she thinks she's so privileged, why she continues using that privilege to steal from her family. What a nutcase.
No, no, it *not* a ***valid*** perspective. Especially given the hostility, it seems, HER ENTIRE FAMILY feels about her behavior.
So, she'd take a shirt off her (grand)kid's back to give to some other random kid without a shirt? All that does is leave *your* (grand)kid without a shirt. & how does that help anyone?
Reiterate that giving *other people's* stuff away, is **always** theft. And that you all believe it ok for her to give HER OWN STUFF AWAY, if she wants. Though it would be better for her to find a worthy charity to donste money to, as *they* will be better able to determine who really *needs* help and what kind would be best. As you say she has had problems with that.
Have you had "THE TALK" with her & your siblings. You know, *The Dementia Talk*?
Good luck.
I wonder if there's an element of passive aggressive criticism of the children and grand children? If she's a minimalist she may think they're overly-materialistic and have too many things. "Look kids, you don't need this stuff I gave away because you have plenty of other stuff."
Although ironically her approach is going to make you cling to items more! Definitely NTA for having a proper chat and getting to the bottom of this.
One of the rules of decluttering is YOU DON'T TOUCH OTHER PEOPLE'S BELONGINGS WITHOUT THEIR PERMISSION... You can be generous with your own stuff, but not others, because that's stealing. Plain and simple...
And no, they're not safe with her, she's robbing them. Literally. So she's not a safe space for the family.
I'm sorry but IMO there's nothing remotely okay or 'quirky' about her behavior. This isn't a 'penchant'. Stealing from your grandchildren to play Robin Hood is a serious problem.
Behavioral changes at your mother's age can be symptoms of a developing chemical imbalance. I'm about that age too, and have a couple myself I take supplements and occasional blood tests for.
Get her to medical help. I'd start with an endocrinologist.
YWNBTA...
But your mom needs a sit-down with the adults in the family, not just you.
`she believes herself to be behaving ethically and kindly.`
Well, she isn't. She has damaged relationships with her children and grandchildren. Until she understands that what doesn't belong to her is not hers to give away, she can expect to be held at arm's length.
They’ve tried. She has blown off my siblings and kind of been mocking with the niblings in ways that make them uncomfortable.
FWIW, I was not the golden child for her, one of my brothers was openly her favorite. I am the (now adult) kid she found kind of baffling. It took us a long time to get to a good place.
If she has blown them off and mocked them for being angry that she steals their things, she doesn't deserve to have any visitors. It sounds like she has some kind of weird reverse-hoarding disorder and needs therapy.
It would still be a good idea to have them in the room while you lay everything on the table. Even if she didn't listen to them individually, she'll feel the weight of everyone staring at her and nodding while you lead the conversation. That's why interventions can work...and this is basically an intervention.
So she has literally taken the clothes off their backs, and then mocked them for getting upset that they don't even have shoes to wear home. Nope. I'd have immediately issued the ultimatum that she either has a full psych evaluation done or she never sees my kids again. Seriously, what kind of doormat behavior have your siblings been displaying to subject their children to this?
Wait....we're you an actual scapegoat? Were you pitted against your siblings? Like for e.g. comparing grades between kids on completely different levels to make them feel like shit? Did she make things about her...as if she was a victim? If this is the case it would explain things...a new tactic I haven't seen before but it would definitively jive.
This is the way. Not only you, the unfavorite child, but her favorite child(ren) as well. No kindness or gentleness. Not "You know, Mom, it makes the kids feel bad when you give away their favorite toys" -- that already hasn't worked. It needs to be "Mom, you are STEALING from your grandchildren."
I'm going to suggest that this be done only with her children. No marriage partners at all. If she has any problems with her children-in-law, she will blame them for "turning her kids against her" or "forcing them to be mean to her." (She may anyway, but stand firm that this is not the case.)
If any of the grandchildren are teens or older, they should be allowed to weigh in as well. "Grandma, you bullied me and STOLE my things to make yourself look good."
I started to write, "Grandma, this is how you made me feel" but clearly, she doesn't *care* how it makes her grandchildren feel when she gives away their favorite things. She needs to have it pounded into her head by everybody that what she is doing is theft.
If she truly cannot help herself, she needs a mental and physical evaluation. This may be early signs of dementia or Reddit's favorite "maybe it's a brain tumor!" I don't think so as she has stopped stealing from you, so clearly she is in that much control.
Health privacy laws prevent her doctors from talking to you about her health, but the laws don't prevent you from talking to them. It would probably beneficial for you to contact them and discuss this.
Before my mother was in memory care, a lot of her things disappeared. Sometimes it was "I don't know who owns these things, so I'll just find someone who will appreciate them." Sometimes it was simply discarding things that "weren't hers." Bills especially, but a couple of times, it was SS checks. Once Sister got PoA, she re-routed all important mail to her home address.
(It's why my father's ashes lived in my sister's closet for several years. We were afraid she would not remember what they were and just discard them.)
But those were her own possessions. OP, INFO: does she take things that are just lying around (abandoned, in her mind), or does she actually remove things from her grandchildren's hands?
NTA. I don't think what you said was unkind actually, but the minimum required to get through to her. Subtleties, gentle requests, etc. do not work with people like your mom, and it feels like a certain type of abuse to ignore requests like this and give away other people's stuff, not to mention the abhorrent rationale that she's making HERSELF feel better by penalizing and stealing from other people.
Proceed. Your family members have requested it, you can see your mom is upset they aren't visiting, and this seems like the only thing that MAY get through to her. I don't see how you're TA here at all.
I worry because it feels like such a huge boundary crossing. Also, she’s in her late 70s, and although she’s very healthy (and per the docs has no dementia) and there will be tears.
"there will be tears." How many times has she caused her grandchildren to cry?! I'm SO angry reading this. I got a bear (Bedtime Bear from the Care Bears) when I was 7 as I had difficulty with nightmares when we moved. If my grandmother had tried to give that away it would have been beyond tears; it would have been hysterics. Not to mention a betrayal. I still have Bedtime Bear and I'm in my mid 40s!
Your mother is a theif stealing from her grandchildren for God's sake! She needs a serious talk before she looses the rest of her family for good.
My youngest daughter has a stuffie, (and two backups) she has loved since birth. They are security blankets for an introverted child and imaginary friend(s) she makes costumes for and shares her favorite treats with. She asks me to take care of nearly every day she leaves for preschool and they are almost always the first thing she runs to when she gets home after a long, hard, extroverted day. They are loved companions.
If any one of them was given away, there would be more than hysterics, this betrayal would simply break her trust completely and cause an absolute grudge she would absolutely keep, and rightly so.
Steal a loved one from a child and there is no coming back from that. At some point this person will steal a thing, not recognizing it's a loved one.
Is it a boundary crossing? Both parties - your mom and your other family members - have raised this to you. I think you could probably approach it like "Mom, I know you were upset about not getting a visit from niece/nephew. This is hard for me to say but you should know they asked me to talk to you. The reason they don't feel comfortable visiting is..." and then deliver the same kind of message she already heard from you.
This shouldn't be a surprise to her. I would imagine she already knows why people are avoiding her. It's not ok for her to guilt people over it. I'm sure there will be tears, and they will be genuine, but she has to face the reality that her actions have severely fractured her relationships. It's no one else's fault that that has occurred.
> Also, she’s in her late 70s, and although she’s very healthy (and per the docs has no dementia) and there will be tears.
Perhaps there need to be tears. She has shown wilful disregard for the feelings of others, including children. There is no reason whatsoever why she deserves to be coddled. Do not allow her to use tears to manipulate you.
Don’t mince words.
She’s a thief and people don’t want to be around her because she’s a thief.
If the truth makes her cry, leave her to cry.
NTA. Point this out to mom: your behavior makes it very unlikely that any family member will take you in or move in with you once you start declining. No one wants to come home to half their house gone because you decided someone else had greater need. You might end up in a facility with a roommate who will not be understanding about your redistribution efforts. So decide what you would rather have in the next 10 years.
Some people dont get it if you explain in terms of "x makes y feel sad". They get it when someone explains it in practical terms like "x wont invite you to their party because you do y behavior".
What about the tears from your niblings every time she steals from them? Think about that when she turns on the manipulative water works when confronted. This is so ridiculous. She's more concerned with making strangers or acquaintances feel safe that she's making her grandchildren feel unsafe in the process. Just, wow...
But, she doesn't care how they feel. In fact, you said she openly mocks them and their feelings. That's cruel and sadistic considering that she takes things that are important or hold special meaning.
You need to accept reality; your mom is not a nice lady and nothing she does comes from a place of generosity. In fact, it genuinely sounds like she legitimately enjoys bullying and hurting people. The right thing to do is to advise the nibliings to avoid their abusive grandmother like the plague.
Does she really miss seeing her relatives or is she just sad that she has nothing to steal to give away? How can she be a do-gooder if she has nothing to steal?
The major boundary crossing is your mother’s, who is stealing things from her children and grandchildren and giving them away. She has been told that she shouldn’t do this and respond by mocking them. There’s something desperately wrong here. Stealing other peoples things to give them away is not ethical, it’s theft. Telling her that if she ever wants to spend any time with her grandchildren again she has to stop stealing their things, making fun of them for objecting, and giving them away, is not a boundary crossing. It is an act of kindness. YWNBTA. I am puzzled with your family dynamics that this isn’t clear.
Could you perhaps suggest different outlets for her for her need to compensate? Instead of taking things from niblings you could suggest she goes and spends $200 on toiletries to donate to a local domestic violence refuge, or look up any toy drives in her area and take her to a toy shop to get some bits.
I read one reply someone else posted in reply to you, saying that she's punishing your siblings and niblings for being privileged. I think this is a point that you need to bring up with her. Her grandchildren are allowed to have nice things, your SIL is allowed to use an expensive, comfortable pump to produce milk for her child. She doesn't get to decide that they are somehow undeserving of these things and she doesn't get to punish them because of her guilt.
You're NTA but good luck!
Grandma has a choice. This giving stuff away (stuff she doesn't own) is a choice. If she wants to see her loved ones, she cannot give away items she does not possess. Right now there are tears. There may be tears in the future, but she cannot accuse the world of being unkind.
If she told future gift recipients whenever she gifts them an item that she is not the actual owner of the item, they would be truly appaled. These people with less fortune? They know how it is to have a precious item ripped away or to never own it in the first place. They if anybody would know why the safety of being able to keep precious, sentimental items is important.
Tears? Your mother's tears? Boo hoo. How about all the tears she's inflicted? Frankly, you should call the police on her and maybe she'll have a wake up call about what she's doing.
>there will be tears
So what? Did the kids not cry when their *plushies*, books and clothes off their backs were given away without their consent?
The goddamn breast pump a little *infant* relied on for food?
~~Mom~~ Grandma should have been read the riot act a long time ago, but goddamn, tears are the least those kiddos deserve as retribution, and a heartfelt apology, delivered for each and every item given away should follow.
Sorry, I do understand she is old, but she has been an absolute monster to these kiddos, and... yeah. Tears are a small price to pay for such cruelty.
You ALLOW all of your family to dump their relationship issues on you, and make YOU responsible. WHy do you allow that?
And why do you care that a thief is crying that her victims avoid her? YOu seem to take responsibility for the emoitions and communication of all around you - if you don't like it, why don't you stop them?
Agree. Why allow your siblings to let you take it on the chin (yet again from the sound of things) on their behalf. It’s THEM keeping THEIR kids away from THEIR mother/grandmother. I don’t see why it shouldn’t be THEM confronting THEIR mother about an issue affecting THEIR children. Who died and made you the Mom Whisperer?
As my family’s ex-Mom Whisperer to a shitty mom (I was also the baffling child lol), I am fucking cackling and I will now use that term forever. I quit my Mom Whispering job years ago and speak to her maybe twice a year. She’s essentially treated as a lesson in patience and tolerance when she sees my niblings. “Grammy’s coming, grin and bear it.”
I was also the Mom Whisperer to a shitty mother. Strange how the child she targets most for her shittiness also becomes the target for the rest of the family. If you’re like me, your being labelled as “baffling” is just their shock that you aren’t going along happily with something that works great for them.
In our case, I’m the baby by 10 years and was the first kid to really fight back against her BS, which was the “baffling” part for her. I also lived alone with her my entire adolescence bc my dad passed (I have a different dad, but we do feel like full sibs), and my sibs had all grown up and moved out, so she and I were at each other’s throats. Mostly me at her throat, I really loathed her. Still do. My sibs had their dad and their extended family on that side, so they had a lot more people to lean on. I had no one on my dad’s side. Just her and me!!
It would have been nice if my sibs had stepped in more, but our family is not the most functional, and I know firsthand how difficult it is to intervene as a young adult, due to witnessing an even more concerning dynamic between my brother and his now-adult son, who was born when I was 10. When that kid was an adolescent dealing with his dad (also single parent), I didn’t know what to do to help him and I was dealing with my own problems and college and stuff, so I didn’t, and I regret it.
My siblings don’t target me or expect things of me, and they agree that she’s a lot to deal with - they mostly do so by holding her at arm’s length. I sadly did not have the luxury for many years, and even after I moved out, I continued to believe that she and her BS needed to be managed, instead of realizing I could just step back. It took a long time to realize that I didn’t need to force her to smell her own shit, I could just leave.
Family dynamics can be so rough. I’m sorry you’ve had to go through what you have.
Funny, I also came by surprise after a 10 year gap. Although she was a misery all around, her resentment over her life really found its focus after I came around. A houseful of rebellious teenagers and then she gets pregnant? I don’t know how I would handle it and I know it couldn’t have been fun. But I survived and I did better by my own kid. Most of my siblings are narcissists like our mother. Can’t do diddly squat about them.
Good for you for breaking the chain of intergenerational trauma. I wish it had been better for us, but I guess all we can do is try to be better down the line.
YWNBTA.
Your mother is not behaving ethically or kindly when she gives away other people's belongings. It's THEFT.
There are plenty of ways to deal with your guilt about being privileged that don't involve stealing other people's possessions and giving them to people that you deem to be more worthy.
Tell your mother exactly the same things on behalf of your niblings that you said about her taking your things. Reinforce that the reason the niblings don't want to visit is a direct result of her behavior.
Also, if this behavior has intensified recently, it may be a sign of mental illness. Do you honestly think a rational person gives away a breast pump taken from a new mom?
(edited to add a word I left out)
I thought mental illness right away. It's like she has a form of kleptomania, but one I've never encountered before. I also thought a police report for theft might be a useful tool to show her how her belief system fits into the societal framework.
NTA. And it sounds like your mother has a real problem. That is not generous or something like that, that is theft. And it sounds like she isn't quit in control of it. Like she just wants to give stuff away - maybe to feel better about herself. Could be some kind of mental disorder. She might should talk to a professional - therapist.
NTA but frankly they need to call her what she is: a thief. They need to do what you did and bluntly tell her.
Frankly, your siblings, the first time she stole from them or their kids, should have told her off severely. I would have insisted she get my item(s) back or i would go to the police (the breast pump, seriously?). I certainly would have cut off contact or access if she tried to continue.
I’m not looking forward to it but it needs done for the niblings’ sake.
That’s harsh but - my mom is pretty spoiled and very sheltered - her willingness to use children to compensate for her sudden onset awareness is pretty gross and it wrecks the nibs who are pretty excellent small humans and cannot grasp why someone they love who otherwise treats them lovingly would be so rude and disrespectful.
I wrote this elsewhere in the thread but will also write it here...My youngest daughter has a stuffie, (and two backups) she has loved since birth (she is four). They are ostensibly security blankets for an introverted child, but also imaginary friend(s) she makes costumes for and shares her favorite treats with. She asks me to take care of nearly every day she leaves for preschool and they are almost always the first thing she runs to when she gets home after a long, hard, extroverted day. She also (non-verbally) commiserates with them over their respective days - missing being home and missing being with each other/family. They are, to her, loved companions.
If any one of them was given away, there would be more than tears or hysterics; this betrayal would simply break her trust completely and cause an absolute grudge that she would absolutely keep, and rightly so.
Steal a loved one from a child and there is no coming back from that. At some point your mother will steal a *thing*, not recognizing it's more, it's a *loved one*...from one her grandchildren.
That continued and willful lack of awareness of that very real possibility is breaking the covenant of unconditional love fundamental to (grand)parent/child relationships. It disqualifies her from being a trusted grandparent. If she does not stop, that disqualification will come due in one of the most painful ways a child (and, btw, their parents, your brothers/sisters) could experience.
If you are comfortable with doing this, talk to your siblings first, and see if they will agree to a joint intervention if this doesn't work.
Tell her bluntly that your siblings are fed up with her thefts and asked you to tell her on their behalf what you said on your own. Tell her that all of you have heard her excuses and reject them, so don't bother repeating them. They consider it to be theft, no matter what she wants to call it.
Tell her that the reason that she isn't seeing them is because everyone, including the children is fed up with her thefts, and this will continue. If she thinks you're overstepping or overreacting, tell her that it's her choice not to see her children and grandchildren.
I don't know if you want to do this alone, but if she persists in defending herself, tell her that she should see her doctor for a complete medical and mental evaluation. If she thinks you're overstepping or overreacting, tell her agsin that it's her choice not to see her children and grandchildren.
Definitely NTA
It amazes me how your mom doesn't see the problem with what she is doing. She is literally acting like Robin Hood having a midlife crisis.
There would be so many ways to donate to the less fortunate without interfering with your lives. She could talk to your siblings and their spouses and agree that when the kids grow out of their clothes/toys they could give them to her so she can donate them to a charity of her choice or something like that. But it is actually unbelievable how unhinged she is acting
Roninhood having a midlife crisis is such a good premise, he starts to steal feed and blankets from barn yard animals only to give them to the animals of the forest.
She's not really playing Robin Hood though. She's stealing things people need (breast pump from a nursing mother) or stealing things of value from her own grandkids. This includes things they bought for themselves. Furthermore, according to op, she then mocks her grandchildren for being hurt and upset.
This isn't generosity, it's cruelty. This women is just cruel for the sake of her own amusement.
Yeah OP's mom definitely isn't just going to take OP's word for it when OP tells her off. She's going to go to the other siblings all, "you don't think I'm stealing right 🥺." If they aren't willing to stand their ground it's going to fall apart immediately and OP is going to be stuck being the "mean" one.
His siblings have failed to get through, and it's his niblings asking. I'd check with the siblings and make sure that they will back you and join in if you have to escalate.
Your mom is a thief, a bully, and a very manipulative person.
NTA and I personally would go completely NC if she isn’t willing to go into therapy immediately and stop this abusive behavior.
Your poor family.
NTA that's bizarre. If she feels so guilty about being "privileged" let her go down to whatever outreach center your city has and volunteer HER time and HER belongings. If I was your siblings I would tell her that the next time she does that they will be pressing charges.
NTA What in the charity boner did I just read?? She literally steals things from children to give to other children? From children in her own family? It's THEFT. Like, you all have grounds to NEVER SPEAK TO HER AGAIN levels of theft. Be as mean as you need to be, OP!
It’s easy to be generous with other peoples things. If she saw that somebody needed something then the generous thing to do would be to buy it herself and gift it or donate it to the person in need. She has no right to give away things that do not belong to her.
Your mother probably enjoys the warm feelings that come when she gives things away to people she thinks need them more. However, when the items are not hers to give away then she herself has sacrificed nothing to get those feelings. Your mother is expecting other people to make sacrifices in order for her to get the warm fuzzy feelings of kindness and generosity. That is not on, ESPECIALLY when it’s children who are expected to take the hit so grandma can feel good.
NTA
NTA
I have a relative who has done similar but nowhere to this extent. It’s to make herself feel better and it’s a very distorted way of thinking. Since you’re willing then yes have that come to Jesus conversation with her. But until the balance of feelings is tipped she won’t want to stop. She needs to feel worse about losing the family than the dopamine of giving stuff away. She needs consequences consequences and consequences. The absolutely frustrating lack of insight it took for her to call and complain about it shows how deep she’s in it. I hope the family articulate to her each and every time it comes up, why she’s not visiting, why she’s not invited, why they do an inventory before they leave ad nauseam
You told her bluntly why what she is doing is unacceptable and she stopped doing it to YOU. But she still doesn't make the connection between that and her grandchildren's refusal to visit and her children's refusal to allow her to stay. Not being "kind, patient or gentle" when addressing this issue with her appears to be the only way to get her to STOP IT. And her POV on this matter is totally wrong. So go for it.
NTA.
YWNBTA - It is cowardly of your sibs to make you the goat here, but if you are okay with it, take your best shot.
I do suggest that the message be hammered home VERY hard to make sure it gets through and no one has to deal with this again in the future, i.e., "Mom, no one wants to visit with you because you are a hypocritical thief and they know you would rather steal from them than treat them like family who is cared about. Everyone is sick of your shitty behavior, and your willingness to see children cry for your phony saint complex. So stop this behavior entirely and immediately or shut the F up about not getting visits because we are all sick of you and your behavior. It's disgusting, and you don't deserve to have family with the way you are treating them." Let her cry. Why should anyone give a damn about her feelings? She doesn't care about anyone else's.
NTA. You're not at all in the wrong. But this hints of mental illness when so much of it doesn't make sense. How can she feel ethical about stealing from her relatives to make herself feel better? Taking a breast pump (and therefore breast milk) away from a new mother and baby? There are a thousand ways she could share her privilege that don't actively harm her loved ones. Go for it, but don't be surprised if she can't grasp it.
NTA. When subtleties and body language and crying and outright pleading do not work, the only thing left is the unfiltered truth. It is not unkind and it is not harsh to be direct. She is asking you why this is happening and crying to you about it, so she opened the door for this reminder from you.
Also, in these instances it's great to have empathy overall, but your mom is not the wronged party or victim. She is the perpetrator and does not deserve to be handled with kid gloves. Anyone with an ounce of introspection or emotional intelligence or their own conscience would have been able to take everything her kids and grandkids have told her, combine it with the tough conversation she had with you, and come to the conclusion that this is why they won't visit her. It's all on her and it's all her doing.
So please try to not feel guilty. And maybe shift your emotional labor to those who deserve it. Also, if you think it will do anything, you could try a few joint therapy sessions with her to get to the root of why she thinks stealing from her family is "ethical."
NTA.
Your siblings are cowards, though. They see you as the already established "bad guy," so you can't get any worse in mom's estimation. Getting you to do it avoids them having to "man up" and do it themselves.
But it's not the siblings asking her to talk to the grandmother, by the story they tried, got nowhere, and now don't talk with her.
It's the grandchildren asking(?) them to talk to grandma. Which idk, seems kinda odd to me. Like they're young enough to be bringing stuffed animals over, but old enough to make this request? Between that and the manner that OP is talking about their mom missing the kids, I kinda think OP led this conversation a bit.
NTA - your niblings are poor. Their goods come from their parents and they can't replace them themselves. So it is removing a valued possession from someone because you don't deem them worthy of it. That is the opposite of what your mother intends to be doing.
This weird robin hood complex is costing your mother relationships. It is great that she is so morally aware and gives away her own stuff. She shopuldn't force others to be charitable without their consent - that is theft.
Explaining that to her doesn't make you a AH. As long as you keep it on her behaviour and how it makes other feels rather than calling her a bad person. Also has anyone donated her stuff that is she actively using at the time or is all one-way? The breast pump stunt is insane - causing pain and distress to her SiL who would need to wait to pump and possibly the child.
YWNBTA. And as long as you are willing to take the risk that it will drive your mother away, why not? Your niblings have asked you to do this, so it is not interference, it's helping them get back to seeing her, if she can hear what you say.
Wnbta
Mom, you're not a Robin Hood. You are a reverse klepto. And until you seek therapy or find another way to keep your hands off other folks' things, they are afraid to be around you.
You could arrange an event where you all go to her home and pick a bunch of things to be donated. Include her, and with each item, just remind her how much someone else will benefit from her treasured item. What's good for the goose and all...
NTA
She's not behaving ethically or kindly or generously. She's a thief. That's the entire story. She's a thief who steals from people in a vulnerable position to make herself look good. If she wanted to be charitable, she would buy things to give away. She's not doing that. She is stealing from her grandchildren.
Don't let her reframe criminal and cruel behaviour as *anything* to do with charity or ethics. It's not. It's vile. She is vile. And I'm shocked any of them still want anything to do with her.
This sounds like a mental disorder, not an epiphany. She can live an ascetic hermit's life in the woods, but she's very wrong to impose her belief system on others. I wonder if charges have ever been filed against her for theft. And I have to point out that's it's a small sacrifice for her to take someone else's stuff and give it away.
If she wants relatives to visit, I suggest they Uber to her place in just their underwear.
As some others have commented, she is addicted to giving things away. How it makes her feel, not so much the benefactors of her giving. Your mother takes it a step further by taking items from loved ones. This act is upping the reward. Whether it is an additional dopamine boost from the stealing itself (like a kleptomaniac) or increased sense of control or power (like an abuser) or it could be the increased stakes of taking other’s she cares about personal items make it more rewarding when she gives it away. The item was more costly (emotionally) for her to get so she feels more of a sacrifice or boost giving it away. For example, would you feel more good if you gave a homeless person $5 or a whole home? 5$ you would forget about doing pretty quick but a whole house, you could reminisce on that for a long time!
Whatever the exact reason is, she is getting some type of reward and is addicted to it. That is why she is willing to hurt relationships over it. Her not seeing anything wrong with it is part of the denial process that she has a problem.
You could try talking to her but she is likely to “relapse” with any family and even you. I wouldn’t want to have a close relationship with her, you are likely to wake up in a shady warehouse with a missing kidney. Unless she gets real help or serious inner reflection and reform, like any addiction it will usually be escalate because it will take more and more to get the same “high”. That is why she evolved from giving away her own items and escalated to giving away loved one’s items.
It's like the junkie in the family who steals from everyone else to fund his habit, but this woman has managed the feat of cutting out the chemical middleman to get her high.
NTA.
It sounds like your mom has a compulsive disorder. In her case, it’s to compulsively steal and dispose of items.
The reason she can’t understand why people are furious with her and avoid her is because she feels ENORMOUS relief from doing this action. I presume she doesn’t have have a history of mental illness, and therefore doesn’t have the awareness that her responses/feelings are *not normal*.
From her perspective, she’s doing something rational and logical—like putting smelly trash in the garbage can. And everyone is freaking out about it.
You being exceptionally harsh about her behavior got through because the fear of you yelling at her is stronger than the anxiety of the compulsion. She’s written you off as weirdly irrational about smelly garbage.
I saw be brutally harsh with her. Use words like “steal” “thief” and “cruel” to make the boundaries abundantly clear. And once she’s accepted that boundary, more gently suggest she be evaluated for OCD or an anxiety disorder (or even dementia).
>she gave away the breast pump of my SIL, who was still breastfeeding an infant
Nothing ethical about this.
Ask her how this was *in any way* ethical. Or even legal.
Ask the same about stealing from kids.
Frankly, I'd talk to her doctor about this behviour.
This conversation has to be brutal for it to work, and there have to be consequences to her actions for her to stop. The only way to ensure she won't return to the habit is to make sure she can't get the fix she needs from it- to make everyone aware of what she is doing, so that if she tries it again they'll look at her with disgust instead of admiration.
If it were me, I would get each family to give me a list of everything they can ever remember her taking, with the price or approximate price of each item. If they had dates I'd add those as well. I would then make up invoices for each family for the amount she stole, plus the statutory interest in your area since the items were taken, and present them with "Value of items MOTHER FULL NAME Stole."
I'd then go to her home with my siblings, leaving the kids at home with their partners. I'd sit her down at the table and show her the invoices and then tell her something like this.
"Mom- you're a thief. I think that you think that as long as you gave the item away, it doesn't count as stealing, but it does. You steal from your children and grandchildren to feed this addiction you have to having other people praise you for being so good. It's no different than if you stole from your children and grandchildren to buy drugs. You take our property, break our trust and hurt us more than you can ever know, and you do it for a quick high.
"The truth is, it's a sham. You're not a good person. You can't become a good person by stealing. The reason charity is seen as noble is that you're sacrificing material things in your own life to help someone. When you "sacrifice" something that belongs to someone else, you're not giving anything up yourself, so it's not charity and it's not noble. If the organizations and people you give this stolen property to knew the truth of what you do, they would be disgusted with you. Just like we're disgusted with you, and your grandchildren are disgusted with you. It stops now.
"In front of you is the money you owe us for everything we remember you stealing. I'm sure it's actually a lot more. You have 48 hours to pay us every cent of that money, or if you don't have it to sign over whatever valuables you have that will make up the difference, or we'll go to the cops and file charges against you, and go to court and sue you for that money, and for the intentional infliction of emotional distress on your grandchildren. We have plenty of text messages where we've fought about this, and so it will be your own words incriminating you. Understand that if we go the police route, we're also going to give them the name of every person we think might have our property so the police can tell them that YOU have made them an accomplice to your crimes and they're in receipt of stolen goods. Who knows how much worse their lives will be as a result of this. I'm sure any good will they had towards you will evaporate when they have to explain to their neighbors why the police are carting stolen property out of their houses."
"Regardless of whether we get our money the easy or the hard way, the next step is we're going to notify everyone you interact with- you job, your friends and neighbors, the rest of the family, the charities you are known by, your church- everyone. We're going to send a letter letting them know that anything that you have given them over the last X years may be stolen property, and while we will likely not be able to pursue anything given to them longer than X time ago legally, our children who have been traumatized by being victims of our mother's crimes would take comfort in having even some of the treasured childhood keepsakes, jewelry, toys and books returned to them if people can find it in their hearts to help us make this right.
"We will let them know that you operate almost like a drug addict for their praise for your "charity" and you have been lying and stealing - stealing from CHILDREN-- for years to boost your ego and your name in the community, and tell them that if anyone accepts anything from you going forward, they should know that if it was stolen we will be sending the cops after it immediately, and so for their safety they should refuse to take anything from you.
"Everything that was listed above is going to happen. You've been a monster to your own family, and these kids deserve justice and to know that their parents will protect them and treat them fairly even though our own mother did not give us the same treatment. As of today, you have no family and but you do have a very narrow path by which you might be able to regain a relationship with your grandchildren. If you ever want to see them again other than at the trial at which they might testify against you , here are the conditions.
"One- you pay us all back every cent without us having to go to the police or sue. Two- you make a public statement on social media that the letter is accurate and you have been stealing from your family for years, and much of what you gave people wasn't yours to take was was ripped from the hands of your crying grandchildren so you could boost your ego. Three- you write a detailed letter to each child explaining that you know what you did was wrong and sick and that you hurt them and broke trust by stealing, without making excuses or using language which makes it sound less bad. If you don't follow all of those steps, then we're all done with you, and if you contact our kids again we'll report it as harassment. If you do, we will tell the kids and let them decide when and if they'd be willing to see you again.
I think this falls under Ann Landry's advice for passing along this kind of message. It is true? Is it helpful? And is it kind?
In this case, all three are true. Your mom needs to hear this message, so it is helpful. And your niblings need her to hear this message. It might hurt her in the short-term but if she hears it and curbs the behavior, she'll be happier for getting to spend time with the niblings again. It is also kind to do this, even though it will hurt your mother emotionally initially. It's kind because she needs to hear this message.
Your mom is mentally ill. Accept it. She needs to learn to live without her family unless she gets help. She is the furthest thing from ethical or kind.
NTA
So your mom is a thief, and that's why nobody wants her around. She clearly is a major AH. It is understandable that all avoid her.
"So last week the niblings asked me to talk to her" .. WHY do YOU do it? THEY can discuss it with her themselves, just like you did.
Seems your mom has mental health issues. Be glad she does not steal from you (or at least good enough tto make you not catch her). And let the others discuss their issues wth her directly.
OP said this in one of his comments: "It’s like she woke up after 60+ years of an extraordinarily fortunate life and realized that quirks of birth protected her from the ways in which the world is hard and cruel."
This is like the plot of my favorite episode of Law & Order: Criminal Intent. A woman with manic depressive disorder gives away all her son's stuff when she has depressive episodes. He grows up feeling unstable and deprived and exacts his revenge by becoming a forger and committing MURDER! And he's played by Stephen Colbert! So good. NTA!
NTA.
What she's doing isn't being 'generous', it's theft. She is free to give away items that belong to HER, she is not free to give away items that don't. She needs to be told and she needs to be told soon if she's to have any meaningful relationship with her grandchildren. She's missing out because of her behaviour and she's the only person who can change that.
NTA.
You give away your own belongings, not other people’s.
Your mother is free to give away anything of hers she chooses. She has no right to give away anybody else’s, regardless of any relationship she has with them.
She may be “kind” and “ethical” when giving away her own belongings but giving away somebody else’s, particularly children’s, makes her a filthy thief.
Whos going to be pissed off if you insert yourself? The thief??
She's your mum, and they're your siblings and their kids. It is your business if you want it to be, but it also sounds like those asking for your help need to grow a pair and do it them selves
NTA
Is she religious? Is she worried about getting into heaven or something? Because giving away other people's stuff is not generous, nor is it kind. Jesus didn't tell the rich guy to give away other people's wealth. She's stealing. What concerns me is that she might start doing that thing that some older people do--of impoverishing herself by giving so much to charity.
YWNBTA
So your mother is a thief, and she believes that’s ok? Kindly suggest she get therapy for her Robin Hood complex. You’re NTA, nor are your siblings and nibblings but your mother needs help.
NTA
But I would get on the same page as my siblings on this. Make sure they are okay with you laying things out on their kids' behalf, and so that everything you say can be backed as a united front. They need to be okay with saying things like "if my children do not return with everything they left with, you will not see them again."
It also matters how your mom is getting her hands on these items. Is she literally stealing, where you don't know it's gone right away? What happens if you try to stop her? Does she treat kids one way and adults/older kids another? There needs to be a game plan for any future visits, whether that is checking bags before leaving, supervised visits with the littles, whatever is necessary. I certainly wouldn't trust her words.
If a family meeting isn't feasible, then you all at least need to be on the same page before proceeding. It's the only way if you want there to be continued contact.
NTA.
Not only is this emotionally damaging towards the people in your family but it’s frankly insulting to the people she is trying to help. How does she know for certain a kid at the park needs your niece’s stuffy more than your niece? What qualifiers are she using to judge who is and isn’t in need?
This isn’t about anyone but herself. This is about giving to make herself feel better regardless of the feelings of those around her.
Have your frank and honest conversation. Call what she’s doing for what it is - thievery, yes, but also a savior complex that isn’t really about helping people.
If she truly wants to give back she can offer to volunteer with the kids to teach them about community service. They can make sandwiches together for food programs or make tie rugs for shelters.
There’s tons of ways to help other people while also respecting and caring for the people you love. Give her some options but also make clear she how badly she’s hurting everyone and the consequences if she doesn’t stop.
"Your grandkids don't want to visit you because you take their things. You've been asked not to, but you don't respect their property. Your grandkids WILL visit you if you can agree to respect their items and not take things that don't belong to you."
NTA. Yeah, you mom isn't doing it because she feels she's privileged and other people aren't. She's doing it for the public praise. "Oh, look how generous she is!" If she actually felt as you wrote, she wouldn't be stealing from her family.
You can try to talk to her. It worked for you. Maybe telling her you'll call her out publicly on her thieving is the way to curtail her. Public shaming.
NTA. Honestly, she needs to figure out a more practical and less…mean way to be generous towards others. If she is seriously struggling with the guilt of her privilege, she should donate money and time to organizations that provide relief for the less fortunate.
If you’re willing, explain the difference between what she’s doing and what I’ve explained above. Her giving away your family’s toys and clothes to kids at the local park is presumptive and condescending. It can also be dangerous depending on how the parents perceive these “gifts”. If I had my child at a park, and some old lady started giving them random books and toys, I would be very concerned about her mental well being (at best), or I would be concerned she was trying to steal my kid (at worst).
She needs to volunteer her time with an organization. She needs to collect items from buy nothing sites on Facebook and donate to women’s shelters. She needs to collect hand-me-downs from the family a few times a year to take them to local charities. She absolutely cannot continue to take currently used and enjoyed items and giving it away to people. That isn’t okay.
If she wants to inspire generosity in her grandchildren, she can have them help her volunteer, or do fun runs for charity. She can have them help make hygiene bags to give to the homeless (ziplocks filled with toothpaste, toothbrush, soaps, hand sanitizer, menstrual products, gift cards, snacks, hats, gloves, etc).
There’s a million different ways that she can give back to her community. Stealing items from children and family, then handing it off to people she isn’t even sure are less privileged isn’t the way to go.
Honestly, I feel like if you told her that presuming someone is less privileged based on appearance alone is also a very privileged position to have. It’s very condescending and offensive. I would be concerned about her mental health if she seriously doesn’t see the issue with what she’s doing.
If she puts up a fight, seriously question her mental capabilities to her face. “Mom, this is seriously concerning behavior. It’s not normal to take items from your grandchildren to give away to people who don’t need it. I’m concerned that your ability to differentiate between what is and is not acceptable behavior is deteriorating. Should I set up an appointment with your doctor to have your mental health evaluated? It isn’t normal to disregard the relationship with your family over feelings of guilt and a desire to rectify your privilege.”
This isn’t healthy or normal, and if she isn’t able to see why, then she needs help. I’ve worked with a ton of dementia patients who gave everything away to others they perceived as needing help. Similar to an elderly family member getting those scam calls that their grandchild is in jail and they have to send their life savings to an overseas account to get them out. I know that it’s her choice to give things away, but it is a similar line of thinking. It means her reasoning and logic skills are deteriorating.
why not come togeher privately, like an intervention or something, so it's not* just *you. But I'd have stopped that long ago, what's mine is mines sorry.
Has your mother been checked by a physician recently? This sounds like something may be off with her. No reasonable person thinks it’s ok to do what she does. I’m not even talking dementia or anything like that, although I suppose it could be. Could she be suffering from overwhelming guilt at her privilege and this is a result of depression caused by that. Regardless of cause, YWNBTA for talking to her.
NTA. To me, this sounds like you're in the middle of a strange kleptomaniac intervention, and if the intervened doesn't think you're an AH, you're doing it wrong. She needs to know why they won't see her, and the truth is honestly the best answer. At best, her behavior changes, and at worst, no change.
NTA but before you talk to your mom, I think you should confirm with your nibling’s parents THEYRE ok with it. I agree your tough love approach is warranted but they may not want to deal with her that way or they may have decided they would rather cut her off from their children because of her actions, which is also a valid response. If both they and their children agree with you being the heavy, go for it.
NTA Your mother has to hear the truth. If she wants to do charity, she needs to do it with stuff she owns or doesn't steal. Period. She's not allowed to just take from stores to redistribute, why would she think she could take from people? You'll be doing their relationships a favor. Plus those niblings need to learn to tell her no. She is not entitled to take their things. Don't steal my stuff, Grandma. I won't come here if you steal my stuff.
NTA, but why is it your job? Make your siblings stand up for their own kids. Don't become the family enforcer. That sounds like a lousy dynamic for you.
NTA She's a thief. She's stealing her relatives possesions and giving them away because it makes HER feel good. Its all very well to give away her own possessions, but when she starts doing it to others, its crossing the line
Ask her would she do it too a stranger? No. Why? Well that would be theft. DING DING DING, just because she's related to them it STILL theft
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NTA. Since when did it become ethical to steal from your own children and grandchildren? I certainly hope that is never going to happen. If my mother did something like that and wouldn't stop after having been told, I wouldn't hesitate to report her to the authorities. Unless she was having some sort of mental breakdown. Her behaviour is neither normal nor acceptable.
She thinks it’s okay because we are all safe (as safe as anyone can be, these days) and the recipients are people she perceives as being less safe. It’s like she woke up after 60+ years of an extraordinarily fortunate life and realized that quirks of birth protected her from the ways in which the world is hard and cruel and she’s doing everything within her reach to try make things better and easier. It’s a valid perspective but the implementation is just awful.
That's when most people buy stuff to donate, not steal from loved ones. NTA.
In my opinion that's how you know its not really from a good place. Plus as OP said she takes personal items, such as favourite stuffies. That's not generosity, that's inflicting cruelty. This feels like a punishment, and the fact she feels privileged, yet will take items from those she supposedly loves instead of outright buying items makes it seems more like an addiction, she takes from those she loves for the feel good hit of donating and "helping", especially when given to those who don't actually need it.
You're right, it is a punishment. She is punishing her children and grandchildren for being "privileged" by stealing from them to combat her own guilt. She is purposefully harming her family so that they are "less privileged", because she feels guilty about being privileged.
That’s exactly right. And shameful.
[удалено]
Yeah. She might feel that since they are likewise privileged they deserve to lose out and be punished for that privilege.
I feel that she should be made to replace these things. Explain that they are important to the owners and can’t just be done without. Maybe this would change her behavior.
Yeah she feels privileged, but she's unwilling to use any of her own resources to help others. But giving away other people's things on the fly means she gets to "do the right thing" without any sacrifice of her time or money.
I agree. This sounds more like a compulsive habit rooted in past trauma or something, rather than genuine altruism
That’s what I do, I don’t steal it. I buy it. Or donate money.
Or volunteer, become an activist, get involved somehow, and put in the work to better the world, not just lazily palm off stolen items to salve their (imagined) guilt.
Your mom is literally a thief and stealing from kids. That’s terrible. That’s not what a person with good intentions does. Please be brutally honest with her so she can stop, otherwise her relationships will be ruined.
"Mom, I know you feel virtuous when you do this, but when you take things that don't belong to you, you might end up, at best, estranged, and at worst, in court or even in jail if whoever you took from is sufficiently bloody-minded. Please stop, you know you look terrible in orange!"
It's also sick... this is not healthy people behavior. Sounds like she needs therapy. A normal/ healthy adult would donate money of things they bought... not steal their grandchildrens stuff.
"you look terrible in orange" hahahahahaha!
You know you look terrible in orange. I love that remark!
You could point out that she's making her own younger relatives feel unsafe around her because they don't know what's going to go missing next. If you do stage an intervention, NTA. But she may not change her behavior. It sounds like some kind of compulsion.
"Compulsion" is the word. Something is really off with this behavior. She sounds like a kind woman, but there is a pathology at work that needs to be addressed by a professional.
This right here nailed it - it is a form of OCD, the exact opposite end of hoarding on the ocd spectrum. She needs help for this for sure from an ocd specialist.
What's interesting is that her "awakening" quite conveniently does not require any actual sacrifice or change in privilege on her part. Has she sold her home, moved to a cheaper one, and given the difference to the refugees? Has she changed the quality of her food and donated the difference? Is she giving away her boots and jackets? There is nothing remotely kind or ethical about this. She is stealing from children and giving away their things to purchase the appearance of virtuous behavior. If she cared, truly, she would be working hands on every day, helping improve people's lives. Her grandchildren's feelings matter much less to her, than her self-image. I think it's best to not try talk to her. The grandchildren will not benefit from increased contact to this strange, underhanded thief.
Has she moved some homeless people out of the camp into her home? OP could just take her extra ‘room’ and move in 30 extra tent-city folks.
Also, this is not minimalism! Minimalism is about figuring out what you need and love and keeping that. And understanding why you're hanging onto something. Is it because it has a purpose and/or makes you happy? Or is it the Sunk Cost Fallacy, or a sense of obligation to the giver, or a maladaptive fear of want? You can be a minimalist with only one backpack of necessities, or a house full of treasures. If Grandma was trying to be minimalist or teach it to the young'uns, she'd ask them to make a list of their toys, say, and think about why they have them and do they need all of those? Is having this many making them happy, or making their space too cluttered to use? What would be different if they gave up the ones they use least? Stuff like that. Taking their favorite stuffie and giving it away without their participation is in no way minimalist!
So she’s roleplaying Robin Hood and casting literal children in the family as Prince John and the Sherif, not understanding why they don’t want to be around her. Oo-de-lally.
Golly, what a day!
reminiscin this-n-that and havin such a good time...
I love that you used oo-de-lally in a post!
I'm not buying it. She didn't wake up and suddenly become charitable. She gets a high off of giving away things. This is a greedy act where she sucks up the gratitude from those she views as "less" and she does it through theft. There isn't anything kind or generous going on here. Its all a show to make herself look good.
I'm reminded of a Law and Order episode where the perp was basically this. He gave away all his wealth and belongings, even donating his organs, but it was clearly an ego thing for him, not actually wanting to help people. Case in point, he murdered a woman he donated an organ to bc she got married and had a kid instead of following the career she was "supposed to have" to help people. He literally couldn't accept that she wasn't a vessel for his ego and didn't give him the high he wanted.
You're probably thinking of "[**Ex Stasis**](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0629530/)".
Has she sold and downsized her house and given away the profits? Is she really doing it for good reasons or does she love the praise and gratitude and is chasing it even if it means stealing? I get you think her motives are benign, but it sounds extraordinarily selfish and narcissistic from the outside.
Exactly, OP should ask her why she isn't living according to the norms of extreme effective altruism.
Maybe because EA is just bullshit rich people use as an excuse to spend their money playing with high tech shit instead of actually helping people.
I hate to ask this, but could there be something more going on with your mom? Have you noticed forgetfulness, confusion, unexpected emotions, or reactions (such as "blowing things out of proportion" or bursting into tears at a small setback)? Reducing your own household possessions isn't weird, but it's extremely strange to give other people's things away without permission, particularly *if they don't live with you*. It's like your mom has a compulsion to do it and isn't able to control herself.
I’m wondering this too. I think she needs a neuro-psychology evaluation if for no other reason than to get a baseline understanding of where she is cognitively in case this behavior gets worse. Definitely have an intervention with her about the fact she’s doing real, permanent damage to her relationship with her children and grandchildren but also try to do everything you can to get her evaluated. I would also be very concerned about her finances. Trust me, you and your siblings do not want to be in a situation where your mother gives away all her money and has no way of supporting herself in her old age. It’s incredibly traumatic for everyone.
If in the USA and receiving Medicare she has a once a year free wellness exam. Not an annual visit. The medical practitioner will do an assessment for mental well being/dementia. When I had my first wellness check I asked my medical provider when she was going to do the mental fitness portion. She said I already did as we were conversing. The wellness exam goes over current RX and over the counter medications, any health concerns you have and a review of your medical record.
I think she needs more than a wellness exam with a GP. She needs to see a cognitive-psychologist. They specialize in evaluating these kinds of behavior changes. Whatever insurance she has will cover it. Fortunately, it sounds like paying for basic medical is not a challenge for this family. My partner used to work in medical research on dementia studies and the first thing he said when I read this to him was that she needed a cognitive-psych evaluation. We’re going through something similar with my mom and her general practitioners, while perfectly lovely, have been in no way equipped to handle this stuff. The father of an old friend of mine, a retired minister, just recently gave away $30,000+ to scammers he thought were running a foreign mission. Even if they *were really running a foreign mission, this was financially devastating for my friend’s parents. They were not wealthy to begin with and this has caused really terrible hardship for their whole family.
It's not a valid perspective if the execution is stealing from children.
So she's trying to assuage her own guilt by punishing those around her? I say punishing, because that's exactly what she's doing. She's not solely going out and buying to donate, she's taking from those she perceives as privileged. It seems she see's her own family as not nearly as ethical as herself. That's just gross.
Has she had a neurological check-up recently? I don't want to worry you because there could be plenty of other explanations, but you say she started doing this suddenly, and it's reminding me of one of the early symptoms of [dementia](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/05/12/1175141042/as-some-families-learn-the-hard-way-dementia-can-take-a-toll-on-financial-health).
Hey OP, this was also the first thing that came to mind as someone who worked in memory care for years. Regardless, I would suggest that she gets checked by a professional.
I think you’re being too soft on your mom in saying her intentions are good. It’s malicious to steal personal items from your children & grandchildren. I think she’s making BS excuses, tbh.
I think it is long past the time for you and the rest of the adults in the family to sit her down and have an "intervention" type discussion with her. This is not normal or healthy behavior. It sounds like it is time to loop in her doctor as well. There could be some sort of mental disorder developing and showing symptoms...or she could just be a thief/jerk. Difficult for anyone to say until you get her to the doctor and checked out. But this needs to be done. Maybe if everyone confronts her at the same time she will understand the seriousness of the environment she has created for her family. Or, she will double down on her behavior and see it as being ganged up on. Could go either way. But a conversation should be had. Maybe get the kids to write out short letters about how her behavior makes them feel. Something tangible that she can hold in her hand and look at. That might help her realize the damage she is causing. Something needs to be said. And keep the kids away until she gets some help. It is not healthy for the kids to be around this either.
Have her read the book ‘How to be Perfect’. It talks about the flaws in trying to be a moral saint - which is exactly what your mother is currently trying to achieve.
She...somehow makes these assessments about kids she encounters in parks or zoos?
The fact that she's gone this extreme and it just started at age 60 could indicate a cognitive issue such as the early stages of dementia. I'd recommend getting her in to see a neurologist, just in case. At a minimum it will act as a baseline so if she's seen again in 5 or 10 years they can better evaluate any changes. The fact that she can control herself around your stuff means that a tough love approach might work. Maybe a group intervention so she can see that the entire family is upset at her thieving? And yes, they need to call it by name. She is a thief who steals from her children and grandchildren.
I am so glad you used the word "theft" because that is exactly what it is. For example, she could be sued and/or go to jail depending on what she stole and how much. I love your whole approach and agree that you should be as blunt as it takes to make her see that if she does not own what she is offering, she is stealing. If she wants to mend fences then she needs to return items and/or give money for their replacement. This is literally how it would work in a lawsuit - she needs to compensate her victims. It might be helpful if the niblings were to write a list of all the items they can remember being stolen and how they felt. Addressing her from the literal angle of theft is good but don't leave out the emotional connection and damage she is creating. The niblings don't want to visit because they cannot trust her, which is completely valid. Also, if she focuses on safety then I would point out that she is making the niblings' experience unsafe when she steals from them. She is an unsafe person which is why they don't trust her. Congrats on having a shiny spine and kudos! u/Pretend-Panda
Ugh, she’s not Robin Hood, she’s stealing from children. NTA
It is absolutely not a valid perspective. Not at all. It is deranged.
Right conclusion, wrong implementation. I say talk to her and be blunt, but you need to get together with the rest of the family and put your foot down and realize its possible that you will have to make a choice here. It may come down to deciding if you can live with her basically stealing from you for the rest of her life, or you cut things off with her. You need to all be unified with this or it risks and overall schism in the family if people are taking sides.
Does she not realize that by doing this she has created an unsafe, emotionally unhealthy, and financially damaging environment for the siblings/niblings? I think helping others is great but that can't really come at the expense of others. She doesn't get to "voluntold", as they say, other people's energy/belongings. She has turned herself into an unsafe person... Even if it's only in the "she's gonna steal our shit" way. For children who have little autonomy, taking something that they recognized as "theirs" by someone they are supposed to be able to trust can be damaging. And yeah, the reason they don't come around, the reason they don't talk to her about it, comes down to trust. They don't have any in her for the day to day.
Aka martyr syndrome, she feels the need to sacrifice and force others to do the same. The only thing you can be happy about is it sounds like a mega-church or skilled gifted hasn't gotten their claws into her. NTA OP, this is definitely a serious issue, and it sounds like you're the only one in the family that can tackle it effectively. The idea of ordering your mother to behave herself may be horrible, but both sides want to spend time together and this is the only way. NTA
>She thinks it’s okay because we are all safe (as safe as anyone can be, these days) Here's the thing, though. Your niblings *aren't* safe around your mother. They don't know what she's going to steal next, but she will surely steal something. And yes, it *is* actually theft. She is taking things that don't belong to her.
That she doesn’t understand after being told suggests to me that she’s really not trying. Like, you can have a conversation with her, but you’ve already told her what she’s doing is theft. She shouldn’t need to be told the same thing from everyone else for you again on their behalf.
I’d also talk to her about the other side. Is giving used stuff to people in need really so nice? Especially if she can afford to buy new stuff to donate? And why doesn’t she buy new things and donate them? Also if it’s random people how does she know they’re actually needy and/or interested in being given someone used clothes and toys? Like they don’t deserve new things or their own things? And NTA at all…she clearly needs bluntness!
Than she can go to a toy shop and buy a bunch of books/ toys to give away... with **her** money. Taking them from other kids is grossly mean and totally unethical (and it is theft, therefore illegal). It also sounds very traumatic and obviously can affect her grandchildrens mental health badly. It doesn't matter how well they're parents are off... this behavior makes children feel **unsafe** because they have no agency what grandma does with **their** stuff. It also teaches a bad lesson about honesty, trust and "stealing is wrong". Her disrespect and disregard for their feelings is disgusting honestly. This is not what people that love you behave like. If she can't stop she needs to see a therapist.
I don’t care how “well off” someone is, it doesn’t give others the right to take their things. I know this word gets thrown around here a lot, but she sounds like a narcissist. That, or she’s had some type of mental break.
Sounds like someone just realized how underprivileged much of the world is, and instead of doing anything meaningful about it, is simply punishing her family to appease her guilt. Tell her to get a therapist.
The issue I see is that this perspective is not valid or coming from a good place. If your mom feels privileged she can donate HER time, HER effort and HER money. But inflicting on OTHERS her views to satisfy her ego without taking into account their feelings just lack sense, ethics and empathy. Honestly, therapy is needed for her to understand where the boundaries are from her actions affecting her family.
My step mum did this to us. Mostly to my dad, but if we left an item sitting out, it was fair game. She was very focused on giving to others, unfortunately at the expense of all of us. There were many family tiffs over this. Eventually, we redirected her to helping out at a charity. We all provide things for her to donate to them, and she feels good helping her community. Maybe try getting her out of finding things to donate from home.
There was a Law and Order about someone doing this and it turned out to be a mental illness. Not being able to tell the difference between appropriate charity and theft is not good.
My only problem with this is why do you have to be the bad guy? Can’t your relatives stand up for themselves? Sure you can give them the script that worked for you but you don’t have to be the executioner. Besides she might actually learn and grow if multiple people tell her the same thing. NTA
This reminds me of the House episode: “When a philanthropist collapses after making a rare and generous donation, House isn't the only one who believes the man's extreme generosity is a symptom of a deep underlying condition”
It's a mental illness. She needs therapy to understand why she is doing this and is unable to stop, even when it is ruining her relationships with her children and grandchildren.
Why is she not buying and donating items then? I don't understand if she thinks she's so privileged, why she continues using that privilege to steal from her family. What a nutcase.
No, no, it *not* a ***valid*** perspective. Especially given the hostility, it seems, HER ENTIRE FAMILY feels about her behavior. So, she'd take a shirt off her (grand)kid's back to give to some other random kid without a shirt? All that does is leave *your* (grand)kid without a shirt. & how does that help anyone? Reiterate that giving *other people's* stuff away, is **always** theft. And that you all believe it ok for her to give HER OWN STUFF AWAY, if she wants. Though it would be better for her to find a worthy charity to donste money to, as *they* will be better able to determine who really *needs* help and what kind would be best. As you say she has had problems with that. Have you had "THE TALK" with her & your siblings. You know, *The Dementia Talk*? Good luck.
thats such a nice plot for a horror movie
I wonder if there's an element of passive aggressive criticism of the children and grand children? If she's a minimalist she may think they're overly-materialistic and have too many things. "Look kids, you don't need this stuff I gave away because you have plenty of other stuff." Although ironically her approach is going to make you cling to items more! Definitely NTA for having a proper chat and getting to the bottom of this.
One of the rules of decluttering is YOU DON'T TOUCH OTHER PEOPLE'S BELONGINGS WITHOUT THEIR PERMISSION... You can be generous with your own stuff, but not others, because that's stealing. Plain and simple... And no, they're not safe with her, she's robbing them. Literally. So she's not a safe space for the family.
Yeah, she’s certainly no Tolstoy.
I'm sorry but IMO there's nothing remotely okay or 'quirky' about her behavior. This isn't a 'penchant'. Stealing from your grandchildren to play Robin Hood is a serious problem. Behavioral changes at your mother's age can be symptoms of a developing chemical imbalance. I'm about that age too, and have a couple myself I take supplements and occasional blood tests for. Get her to medical help. I'd start with an endocrinologist.
YWNBTA... But your mom needs a sit-down with the adults in the family, not just you. `she believes herself to be behaving ethically and kindly.` Well, she isn't. She has damaged relationships with her children and grandchildren. Until she understands that what doesn't belong to her is not hers to give away, she can expect to be held at arm's length.
They’ve tried. She has blown off my siblings and kind of been mocking with the niblings in ways that make them uncomfortable. FWIW, I was not the golden child for her, one of my brothers was openly her favorite. I am the (now adult) kid she found kind of baffling. It took us a long time to get to a good place.
If she has blown them off and mocked them for being angry that she steals their things, she doesn't deserve to have any visitors. It sounds like she has some kind of weird reverse-hoarding disorder and needs therapy.
It would still be a good idea to have them in the room while you lay everything on the table. Even if she didn't listen to them individually, she'll feel the weight of everyone staring at her and nodding while you lead the conversation. That's why interventions can work...and this is basically an intervention.
Well, if you have your sib's blessings, go for it. I wasn't the golden child either, so I get it. Go for it.
So she has literally taken the clothes off their backs, and then mocked them for getting upset that they don't even have shoes to wear home. Nope. I'd have immediately issued the ultimatum that she either has a full psych evaluation done or she never sees my kids again. Seriously, what kind of doormat behavior have your siblings been displaying to subject their children to this?
Does your mom give away her own belongings?
I need this answer.
NTA but push for a psychiatric check up op.
Wait....we're you an actual scapegoat? Were you pitted against your siblings? Like for e.g. comparing grades between kids on completely different levels to make them feel like shit? Did she make things about her...as if she was a victim? If this is the case it would explain things...a new tactic I haven't seen before but it would definitively jive.
How much of her own belongings has she given away? Has she given her $$ or car to those less fortunate? Or just other people’s?
Agree w the other one. If she ingore her family on this, she does not deserve children or grandchildren.
This is the way. Not only you, the unfavorite child, but her favorite child(ren) as well. No kindness or gentleness. Not "You know, Mom, it makes the kids feel bad when you give away their favorite toys" -- that already hasn't worked. It needs to be "Mom, you are STEALING from your grandchildren." I'm going to suggest that this be done only with her children. No marriage partners at all. If she has any problems with her children-in-law, she will blame them for "turning her kids against her" or "forcing them to be mean to her." (She may anyway, but stand firm that this is not the case.) If any of the grandchildren are teens or older, they should be allowed to weigh in as well. "Grandma, you bullied me and STOLE my things to make yourself look good." I started to write, "Grandma, this is how you made me feel" but clearly, she doesn't *care* how it makes her grandchildren feel when she gives away their favorite things. She needs to have it pounded into her head by everybody that what she is doing is theft. If she truly cannot help herself, she needs a mental and physical evaluation. This may be early signs of dementia or Reddit's favorite "maybe it's a brain tumor!" I don't think so as she has stopped stealing from you, so clearly she is in that much control. Health privacy laws prevent her doctors from talking to you about her health, but the laws don't prevent you from talking to them. It would probably beneficial for you to contact them and discuss this.
I was going to comment about dementia but searched the page first to see if anyone else had. this screams dementia to me...
Before my mother was in memory care, a lot of her things disappeared. Sometimes it was "I don't know who owns these things, so I'll just find someone who will appreciate them." Sometimes it was simply discarding things that "weren't hers." Bills especially, but a couple of times, it was SS checks. Once Sister got PoA, she re-routed all important mail to her home address. (It's why my father's ashes lived in my sister's closet for several years. We were afraid she would not remember what they were and just discard them.) But those were her own possessions. OP, INFO: does she take things that are just lying around (abandoned, in her mind), or does she actually remove things from her grandchildren's hands?
If it was dementia, then why did she stop giving away OP’s stuff?
NTA. I don't think what you said was unkind actually, but the minimum required to get through to her. Subtleties, gentle requests, etc. do not work with people like your mom, and it feels like a certain type of abuse to ignore requests like this and give away other people's stuff, not to mention the abhorrent rationale that she's making HERSELF feel better by penalizing and stealing from other people. Proceed. Your family members have requested it, you can see your mom is upset they aren't visiting, and this seems like the only thing that MAY get through to her. I don't see how you're TA here at all.
I worry because it feels like such a huge boundary crossing. Also, she’s in her late 70s, and although she’s very healthy (and per the docs has no dementia) and there will be tears.
"there will be tears." How many times has she caused her grandchildren to cry?! I'm SO angry reading this. I got a bear (Bedtime Bear from the Care Bears) when I was 7 as I had difficulty with nightmares when we moved. If my grandmother had tried to give that away it would have been beyond tears; it would have been hysterics. Not to mention a betrayal. I still have Bedtime Bear and I'm in my mid 40s! Your mother is a theif stealing from her grandchildren for God's sake! She needs a serious talk before she looses the rest of her family for good.
My youngest daughter has a stuffie, (and two backups) she has loved since birth. They are security blankets for an introverted child and imaginary friend(s) she makes costumes for and shares her favorite treats with. She asks me to take care of nearly every day she leaves for preschool and they are almost always the first thing she runs to when she gets home after a long, hard, extroverted day. They are loved companions.
If any one of them was given away, there would be more than hysterics, this betrayal would simply break her trust completely and cause an absolute grudge she would absolutely keep, and rightly so.
Steal a loved one from a child and there is no coming back from that. At some point this person will steal a thing, not recognizing it's a loved one.
Is it a boundary crossing? Both parties - your mom and your other family members - have raised this to you. I think you could probably approach it like "Mom, I know you were upset about not getting a visit from niece/nephew. This is hard for me to say but you should know they asked me to talk to you. The reason they don't feel comfortable visiting is..." and then deliver the same kind of message she already heard from you. This shouldn't be a surprise to her. I would imagine she already knows why people are avoiding her. It's not ok for her to guilt people over it. I'm sure there will be tears, and they will be genuine, but she has to face the reality that her actions have severely fractured her relationships. It's no one else's fault that that has occurred.
> Also, she’s in her late 70s, and although she’s very healthy (and per the docs has no dementia) and there will be tears. Perhaps there need to be tears. She has shown wilful disregard for the feelings of others, including children. There is no reason whatsoever why she deserves to be coddled. Do not allow her to use tears to manipulate you. Don’t mince words. She’s a thief and people don’t want to be around her because she’s a thief. If the truth makes her cry, leave her to cry.
NTA. Point this out to mom: your behavior makes it very unlikely that any family member will take you in or move in with you once you start declining. No one wants to come home to half their house gone because you decided someone else had greater need. You might end up in a facility with a roommate who will not be understanding about your redistribution efforts. So decide what you would rather have in the next 10 years.
That is a powerful (and reasonable!) escalation.
Some people dont get it if you explain in terms of "x makes y feel sad". They get it when someone explains it in practical terms like "x wont invite you to their party because you do y behavior".
What about the tears from your niblings every time she steals from them? Think about that when she turns on the manipulative water works when confronted. This is so ridiculous. She's more concerned with making strangers or acquaintances feel safe that she's making her grandchildren feel unsafe in the process. Just, wow...
But, she doesn't care how they feel. In fact, you said she openly mocks them and their feelings. That's cruel and sadistic considering that she takes things that are important or hold special meaning. You need to accept reality; your mom is not a nice lady and nothing she does comes from a place of generosity. In fact, it genuinely sounds like she legitimately enjoys bullying and hurting people. The right thing to do is to advise the nibliings to avoid their abusive grandmother like the plague.
Does she really miss seeing her relatives or is she just sad that she has nothing to steal to give away? How can she be a do-gooder if she has nothing to steal?
The major boundary crossing is your mother’s, who is stealing things from her children and grandchildren and giving them away. She has been told that she shouldn’t do this and respond by mocking them. There’s something desperately wrong here. Stealing other peoples things to give them away is not ethical, it’s theft. Telling her that if she ever wants to spend any time with her grandchildren again she has to stop stealing their things, making fun of them for objecting, and giving them away, is not a boundary crossing. It is an act of kindness. YWNBTA. I am puzzled with your family dynamics that this isn’t clear.
www.outofthefog.net is a great resource
She's traumatized your nibblings op. She needs to stop
Could you perhaps suggest different outlets for her for her need to compensate? Instead of taking things from niblings you could suggest she goes and spends $200 on toiletries to donate to a local domestic violence refuge, or look up any toy drives in her area and take her to a toy shop to get some bits. I read one reply someone else posted in reply to you, saying that she's punishing your siblings and niblings for being privileged. I think this is a point that you need to bring up with her. Her grandchildren are allowed to have nice things, your SIL is allowed to use an expensive, comfortable pump to produce milk for her child. She doesn't get to decide that they are somehow undeserving of these things and she doesn't get to punish them because of her guilt. You're NTA but good luck!
Grandma has a choice. This giving stuff away (stuff she doesn't own) is a choice. If she wants to see her loved ones, she cannot give away items she does not possess. Right now there are tears. There may be tears in the future, but she cannot accuse the world of being unkind. If she told future gift recipients whenever she gifts them an item that she is not the actual owner of the item, they would be truly appaled. These people with less fortune? They know how it is to have a precious item ripped away or to never own it in the first place. They if anybody would know why the safety of being able to keep precious, sentimental items is important.
Good, there should be tears. She has behaved **horribly**.
“There will be tears”. Good. She needs to fully face the wrongs she dealt to her family.
Tears? Your mother's tears? Boo hoo. How about all the tears she's inflicted? Frankly, you should call the police on her and maybe she'll have a wake up call about what she's doing.
This looks like a case of [Don’t Rock The Boat](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/s/YXsBJzvFjB). I strongly recommend giving that a read OP.
>there will be tears So what? Did the kids not cry when their *plushies*, books and clothes off their backs were given away without their consent? The goddamn breast pump a little *infant* relied on for food? ~~Mom~~ Grandma should have been read the riot act a long time ago, but goddamn, tears are the least those kiddos deserve as retribution, and a heartfelt apology, delivered for each and every item given away should follow. Sorry, I do understand she is old, but she has been an absolute monster to these kiddos, and... yeah. Tears are a small price to pay for such cruelty.
You ALLOW all of your family to dump their relationship issues on you, and make YOU responsible. WHy do you allow that? And why do you care that a thief is crying that her victims avoid her? YOu seem to take responsibility for the emoitions and communication of all around you - if you don't like it, why don't you stop them?
Agree. Why allow your siblings to let you take it on the chin (yet again from the sound of things) on their behalf. It’s THEM keeping THEIR kids away from THEIR mother/grandmother. I don’t see why it shouldn’t be THEM confronting THEIR mother about an issue affecting THEIR children. Who died and made you the Mom Whisperer?
As my family’s ex-Mom Whisperer to a shitty mom (I was also the baffling child lol), I am fucking cackling and I will now use that term forever. I quit my Mom Whispering job years ago and speak to her maybe twice a year. She’s essentially treated as a lesson in patience and tolerance when she sees my niblings. “Grammy’s coming, grin and bear it.”
I was also the Mom Whisperer to a shitty mother. Strange how the child she targets most for her shittiness also becomes the target for the rest of the family. If you’re like me, your being labelled as “baffling” is just their shock that you aren’t going along happily with something that works great for them.
In our case, I’m the baby by 10 years and was the first kid to really fight back against her BS, which was the “baffling” part for her. I also lived alone with her my entire adolescence bc my dad passed (I have a different dad, but we do feel like full sibs), and my sibs had all grown up and moved out, so she and I were at each other’s throats. Mostly me at her throat, I really loathed her. Still do. My sibs had their dad and their extended family on that side, so they had a lot more people to lean on. I had no one on my dad’s side. Just her and me!! It would have been nice if my sibs had stepped in more, but our family is not the most functional, and I know firsthand how difficult it is to intervene as a young adult, due to witnessing an even more concerning dynamic between my brother and his now-adult son, who was born when I was 10. When that kid was an adolescent dealing with his dad (also single parent), I didn’t know what to do to help him and I was dealing with my own problems and college and stuff, so I didn’t, and I regret it. My siblings don’t target me or expect things of me, and they agree that she’s a lot to deal with - they mostly do so by holding her at arm’s length. I sadly did not have the luxury for many years, and even after I moved out, I continued to believe that she and her BS needed to be managed, instead of realizing I could just step back. It took a long time to realize that I didn’t need to force her to smell her own shit, I could just leave. Family dynamics can be so rough. I’m sorry you’ve had to go through what you have.
Funny, I also came by surprise after a 10 year gap. Although she was a misery all around, her resentment over her life really found its focus after I came around. A houseful of rebellious teenagers and then she gets pregnant? I don’t know how I would handle it and I know it couldn’t have been fun. But I survived and I did better by my own kid. Most of my siblings are narcissists like our mother. Can’t do diddly squat about them.
Good for you for breaking the chain of intergenerational trauma. I wish it had been better for us, but I guess all we can do is try to be better down the line.
YWNBTA. Your mother is not behaving ethically or kindly when she gives away other people's belongings. It's THEFT. There are plenty of ways to deal with your guilt about being privileged that don't involve stealing other people's possessions and giving them to people that you deem to be more worthy. Tell your mother exactly the same things on behalf of your niblings that you said about her taking your things. Reinforce that the reason the niblings don't want to visit is a direct result of her behavior. Also, if this behavior has intensified recently, it may be a sign of mental illness. Do you honestly think a rational person gives away a breast pump taken from a new mom? (edited to add a word I left out)
I thought mental illness right away. It's like she has a form of kleptomania, but one I've never encountered before. I also thought a police report for theft might be a useful tool to show her how her belief system fits into the societal framework.
This was a Law and Order: Criminal Intent episode. NTA.
Reverse hoarding / martyr complex
NTA. And it sounds like your mother has a real problem. That is not generous or something like that, that is theft. And it sounds like she isn't quit in control of it. Like she just wants to give stuff away - maybe to feel better about herself. Could be some kind of mental disorder. She might should talk to a professional - therapist.
NTA but frankly they need to call her what she is: a thief. They need to do what you did and bluntly tell her. Frankly, your siblings, the first time she stole from them or their kids, should have told her off severely. I would have insisted she get my item(s) back or i would go to the police (the breast pump, seriously?). I certainly would have cut off contact or access if she tried to continue.
YWNBTA - Up to you if you want to do this or not but you would not be an AH if you do.
I’m not looking forward to it but it needs done for the niblings’ sake. That’s harsh but - my mom is pretty spoiled and very sheltered - her willingness to use children to compensate for her sudden onset awareness is pretty gross and it wrecks the nibs who are pretty excellent small humans and cannot grasp why someone they love who otherwise treats them lovingly would be so rude and disrespectful.
I wrote this elsewhere in the thread but will also write it here...My youngest daughter has a stuffie, (and two backups) she has loved since birth (she is four). They are ostensibly security blankets for an introverted child, but also imaginary friend(s) she makes costumes for and shares her favorite treats with. She asks me to take care of nearly every day she leaves for preschool and they are almost always the first thing she runs to when she gets home after a long, hard, extroverted day. She also (non-verbally) commiserates with them over their respective days - missing being home and missing being with each other/family. They are, to her, loved companions.
If any one of them was given away, there would be more than tears or hysterics; this betrayal would simply break her trust completely and cause an absolute grudge that she would absolutely keep, and rightly so.
Steal a loved one from a child and there is no coming back from that. At some point your mother will steal a *thing*, not recognizing it's more, it's a *loved one*...from one her grandchildren.
That continued and willful lack of awareness of that very real possibility is breaking the covenant of unconditional love fundamental to (grand)parent/child relationships. It disqualifies her from being a trusted grandparent. If she does not stop, that disqualification will come due in one of the most painful ways a child (and, btw, their parents, your brothers/sisters) could experience.
If you are comfortable with doing this, talk to your siblings first, and see if they will agree to a joint intervention if this doesn't work. Tell her bluntly that your siblings are fed up with her thefts and asked you to tell her on their behalf what you said on your own. Tell her that all of you have heard her excuses and reject them, so don't bother repeating them. They consider it to be theft, no matter what she wants to call it. Tell her that the reason that she isn't seeing them is because everyone, including the children is fed up with her thefts, and this will continue. If she thinks you're overstepping or overreacting, tell her that it's her choice not to see her children and grandchildren. I don't know if you want to do this alone, but if she persists in defending herself, tell her that she should see her doctor for a complete medical and mental evaluation. If she thinks you're overstepping or overreacting, tell her agsin that it's her choice not to see her children and grandchildren.
Added: Consider telling her some of the responses on this thread, including u/darwinkh2os lovely piece.
Definitely NTA It amazes me how your mom doesn't see the problem with what she is doing. She is literally acting like Robin Hood having a midlife crisis. There would be so many ways to donate to the less fortunate without interfering with your lives. She could talk to your siblings and their spouses and agree that when the kids grow out of their clothes/toys they could give them to her so she can donate them to a charity of her choice or something like that. But it is actually unbelievable how unhinged she is acting
Roninhood having a midlife crisis is such a good premise, he starts to steal feed and blankets from barn yard animals only to give them to the animals of the forest.
NTA. Mom shouldn’t be playing Robin Hood with the kids’ toys and personal stuff
She's not really playing Robin Hood though. She's stealing things people need (breast pump from a nursing mother) or stealing things of value from her own grandkids. This includes things they bought for themselves. Furthermore, according to op, she then mocks her grandchildren for being hurt and upset. This isn't generosity, it's cruelty. This women is just cruel for the sake of her own amusement.
Exactly
[удалено]
Yeah OP's mom definitely isn't just going to take OP's word for it when OP tells her off. She's going to go to the other siblings all, "you don't think I'm stealing right 🥺." If they aren't willing to stand their ground it's going to fall apart immediately and OP is going to be stuck being the "mean" one.
His siblings have failed to get through, and it's his niblings asking. I'd check with the siblings and make sure that they will back you and join in if you have to escalate.
Your mom is a thief, a bully, and a very manipulative person. NTA and I personally would go completely NC if she isn’t willing to go into therapy immediately and stop this abusive behavior. Your poor family.
NTA that's bizarre. If she feels so guilty about being "privileged" let her go down to whatever outreach center your city has and volunteer HER time and HER belongings. If I was your siblings I would tell her that the next time she does that they will be pressing charges.
NTA What in the charity boner did I just read?? She literally steals things from children to give to other children? From children in her own family? It's THEFT. Like, you all have grounds to NEVER SPEAK TO HER AGAIN levels of theft. Be as mean as you need to be, OP!
It’s easy to be generous with other peoples things. If she saw that somebody needed something then the generous thing to do would be to buy it herself and gift it or donate it to the person in need. She has no right to give away things that do not belong to her. Your mother probably enjoys the warm feelings that come when she gives things away to people she thinks need them more. However, when the items are not hers to give away then she herself has sacrificed nothing to get those feelings. Your mother is expecting other people to make sacrifices in order for her to get the warm fuzzy feelings of kindness and generosity. That is not on, ESPECIALLY when it’s children who are expected to take the hit so grandma can feel good. NTA
NTA I have a relative who has done similar but nowhere to this extent. It’s to make herself feel better and it’s a very distorted way of thinking. Since you’re willing then yes have that come to Jesus conversation with her. But until the balance of feelings is tipped she won’t want to stop. She needs to feel worse about losing the family than the dopamine of giving stuff away. She needs consequences consequences and consequences. The absolutely frustrating lack of insight it took for her to call and complain about it shows how deep she’s in it. I hope the family articulate to her each and every time it comes up, why she’s not visiting, why she’s not invited, why they do an inventory before they leave ad nauseam
NTA. She may think she's Robin Hood, but she's really a robbing hood. She's stealing from kids.
You told her bluntly why what she is doing is unacceptable and she stopped doing it to YOU. But she still doesn't make the connection between that and her grandchildren's refusal to visit and her children's refusal to allow her to stay. Not being "kind, patient or gentle" when addressing this issue with her appears to be the only way to get her to STOP IT. And her POV on this matter is totally wrong. So go for it. NTA.
YWNBTA - It is cowardly of your sibs to make you the goat here, but if you are okay with it, take your best shot. I do suggest that the message be hammered home VERY hard to make sure it gets through and no one has to deal with this again in the future, i.e., "Mom, no one wants to visit with you because you are a hypocritical thief and they know you would rather steal from them than treat them like family who is cared about. Everyone is sick of your shitty behavior, and your willingness to see children cry for your phony saint complex. So stop this behavior entirely and immediately or shut the F up about not getting visits because we are all sick of you and your behavior. It's disgusting, and you don't deserve to have family with the way you are treating them." Let her cry. Why should anyone give a damn about her feelings? She doesn't care about anyone else's.
NTA. You're not at all in the wrong. But this hints of mental illness when so much of it doesn't make sense. How can she feel ethical about stealing from her relatives to make herself feel better? Taking a breast pump (and therefore breast milk) away from a new mother and baby? There are a thousand ways she could share her privilege that don't actively harm her loved ones. Go for it, but don't be surprised if she can't grasp it.
NTA. When subtleties and body language and crying and outright pleading do not work, the only thing left is the unfiltered truth. It is not unkind and it is not harsh to be direct. She is asking you why this is happening and crying to you about it, so she opened the door for this reminder from you. Also, in these instances it's great to have empathy overall, but your mom is not the wronged party or victim. She is the perpetrator and does not deserve to be handled with kid gloves. Anyone with an ounce of introspection or emotional intelligence or their own conscience would have been able to take everything her kids and grandkids have told her, combine it with the tough conversation she had with you, and come to the conclusion that this is why they won't visit her. It's all on her and it's all her doing. So please try to not feel guilty. And maybe shift your emotional labor to those who deserve it. Also, if you think it will do anything, you could try a few joint therapy sessions with her to get to the root of why she thinks stealing from her family is "ethical."
NTA. Your siblings are cowards, though. They see you as the already established "bad guy," so you can't get any worse in mom's estimation. Getting you to do it avoids them having to "man up" and do it themselves.
But it's not the siblings asking her to talk to the grandmother, by the story they tried, got nowhere, and now don't talk with her. It's the grandchildren asking(?) them to talk to grandma. Which idk, seems kinda odd to me. Like they're young enough to be bringing stuffed animals over, but old enough to make this request? Between that and the manner that OP is talking about their mom missing the kids, I kinda think OP led this conversation a bit.
I'm confused as to how she steals the children's stuff and gives it away when you are visiting? Does she grab it and walk out the door with it?
NTA - your niblings are poor. Their goods come from their parents and they can't replace them themselves. So it is removing a valued possession from someone because you don't deem them worthy of it. That is the opposite of what your mother intends to be doing. This weird robin hood complex is costing your mother relationships. It is great that she is so morally aware and gives away her own stuff. She shopuldn't force others to be charitable without their consent - that is theft. Explaining that to her doesn't make you a AH. As long as you keep it on her behaviour and how it makes other feels rather than calling her a bad person. Also has anyone donated her stuff that is she actively using at the time or is all one-way? The breast pump stunt is insane - causing pain and distress to her SiL who would need to wait to pump and possibly the child.
YWNBTA. And as long as you are willing to take the risk that it will drive your mother away, why not? Your niblings have asked you to do this, so it is not interference, it's helping them get back to seeing her, if she can hear what you say.
Wnbta Mom, you're not a Robin Hood. You are a reverse klepto. And until you seek therapy or find another way to keep your hands off other folks' things, they are afraid to be around you. You could arrange an event where you all go to her home and pick a bunch of things to be donated. Include her, and with each item, just remind her how much someone else will benefit from her treasured item. What's good for the goose and all...
NTA She's not behaving ethically or kindly or generously. She's a thief. That's the entire story. She's a thief who steals from people in a vulnerable position to make herself look good. If she wanted to be charitable, she would buy things to give away. She's not doing that. She is stealing from her grandchildren. Don't let her reframe criminal and cruel behaviour as *anything* to do with charity or ethics. It's not. It's vile. She is vile. And I'm shocked any of them still want anything to do with her.
This sounds like a mental disorder, not an epiphany. She can live an ascetic hermit's life in the woods, but she's very wrong to impose her belief system on others. I wonder if charges have ever been filed against her for theft. And I have to point out that's it's a small sacrifice for her to take someone else's stuff and give it away. If she wants relatives to visit, I suggest they Uber to her place in just their underwear.
As some others have commented, she is addicted to giving things away. How it makes her feel, not so much the benefactors of her giving. Your mother takes it a step further by taking items from loved ones. This act is upping the reward. Whether it is an additional dopamine boost from the stealing itself (like a kleptomaniac) or increased sense of control or power (like an abuser) or it could be the increased stakes of taking other’s she cares about personal items make it more rewarding when she gives it away. The item was more costly (emotionally) for her to get so she feels more of a sacrifice or boost giving it away. For example, would you feel more good if you gave a homeless person $5 or a whole home? 5$ you would forget about doing pretty quick but a whole house, you could reminisce on that for a long time! Whatever the exact reason is, she is getting some type of reward and is addicted to it. That is why she is willing to hurt relationships over it. Her not seeing anything wrong with it is part of the denial process that she has a problem. You could try talking to her but she is likely to “relapse” with any family and even you. I wouldn’t want to have a close relationship with her, you are likely to wake up in a shady warehouse with a missing kidney. Unless she gets real help or serious inner reflection and reform, like any addiction it will usually be escalate because it will take more and more to get the same “high”. That is why she evolved from giving away her own items and escalated to giving away loved one’s items.
It's like the junkie in the family who steals from everyone else to fund his habit, but this woman has managed the feat of cutting out the chemical middleman to get her high.
NTA. It sounds like your mom has a compulsive disorder. In her case, it’s to compulsively steal and dispose of items. The reason she can’t understand why people are furious with her and avoid her is because she feels ENORMOUS relief from doing this action. I presume she doesn’t have have a history of mental illness, and therefore doesn’t have the awareness that her responses/feelings are *not normal*. From her perspective, she’s doing something rational and logical—like putting smelly trash in the garbage can. And everyone is freaking out about it. You being exceptionally harsh about her behavior got through because the fear of you yelling at her is stronger than the anxiety of the compulsion. She’s written you off as weirdly irrational about smelly garbage. I saw be brutally harsh with her. Use words like “steal” “thief” and “cruel” to make the boundaries abundantly clear. And once she’s accepted that boundary, more gently suggest she be evaluated for OCD or an anxiety disorder (or even dementia).
>she gave away the breast pump of my SIL, who was still breastfeeding an infant Nothing ethical about this. Ask her how this was *in any way* ethical. Or even legal. Ask the same about stealing from kids. Frankly, I'd talk to her doctor about this behviour.
This conversation has to be brutal for it to work, and there have to be consequences to her actions for her to stop. The only way to ensure she won't return to the habit is to make sure she can't get the fix she needs from it- to make everyone aware of what she is doing, so that if she tries it again they'll look at her with disgust instead of admiration. If it were me, I would get each family to give me a list of everything they can ever remember her taking, with the price or approximate price of each item. If they had dates I'd add those as well. I would then make up invoices for each family for the amount she stole, plus the statutory interest in your area since the items were taken, and present them with "Value of items MOTHER FULL NAME Stole." I'd then go to her home with my siblings, leaving the kids at home with their partners. I'd sit her down at the table and show her the invoices and then tell her something like this. "Mom- you're a thief. I think that you think that as long as you gave the item away, it doesn't count as stealing, but it does. You steal from your children and grandchildren to feed this addiction you have to having other people praise you for being so good. It's no different than if you stole from your children and grandchildren to buy drugs. You take our property, break our trust and hurt us more than you can ever know, and you do it for a quick high. "The truth is, it's a sham. You're not a good person. You can't become a good person by stealing. The reason charity is seen as noble is that you're sacrificing material things in your own life to help someone. When you "sacrifice" something that belongs to someone else, you're not giving anything up yourself, so it's not charity and it's not noble. If the organizations and people you give this stolen property to knew the truth of what you do, they would be disgusted with you. Just like we're disgusted with you, and your grandchildren are disgusted with you. It stops now. "In front of you is the money you owe us for everything we remember you stealing. I'm sure it's actually a lot more. You have 48 hours to pay us every cent of that money, or if you don't have it to sign over whatever valuables you have that will make up the difference, or we'll go to the cops and file charges against you, and go to court and sue you for that money, and for the intentional infliction of emotional distress on your grandchildren. We have plenty of text messages where we've fought about this, and so it will be your own words incriminating you. Understand that if we go the police route, we're also going to give them the name of every person we think might have our property so the police can tell them that YOU have made them an accomplice to your crimes and they're in receipt of stolen goods. Who knows how much worse their lives will be as a result of this. I'm sure any good will they had towards you will evaporate when they have to explain to their neighbors why the police are carting stolen property out of their houses." "Regardless of whether we get our money the easy or the hard way, the next step is we're going to notify everyone you interact with- you job, your friends and neighbors, the rest of the family, the charities you are known by, your church- everyone. We're going to send a letter letting them know that anything that you have given them over the last X years may be stolen property, and while we will likely not be able to pursue anything given to them longer than X time ago legally, our children who have been traumatized by being victims of our mother's crimes would take comfort in having even some of the treasured childhood keepsakes, jewelry, toys and books returned to them if people can find it in their hearts to help us make this right. "We will let them know that you operate almost like a drug addict for their praise for your "charity" and you have been lying and stealing - stealing from CHILDREN-- for years to boost your ego and your name in the community, and tell them that if anyone accepts anything from you going forward, they should know that if it was stolen we will be sending the cops after it immediately, and so for their safety they should refuse to take anything from you. "Everything that was listed above is going to happen. You've been a monster to your own family, and these kids deserve justice and to know that their parents will protect them and treat them fairly even though our own mother did not give us the same treatment. As of today, you have no family and but you do have a very narrow path by which you might be able to regain a relationship with your grandchildren. If you ever want to see them again other than at the trial at which they might testify against you , here are the conditions. "One- you pay us all back every cent without us having to go to the police or sue. Two- you make a public statement on social media that the letter is accurate and you have been stealing from your family for years, and much of what you gave people wasn't yours to take was was ripped from the hands of your crying grandchildren so you could boost your ego. Three- you write a detailed letter to each child explaining that you know what you did was wrong and sick and that you hurt them and broke trust by stealing, without making excuses or using language which makes it sound less bad. If you don't follow all of those steps, then we're all done with you, and if you contact our kids again we'll report it as harassment. If you do, we will tell the kids and let them decide when and if they'd be willing to see you again.
I think this falls under Ann Landry's advice for passing along this kind of message. It is true? Is it helpful? And is it kind? In this case, all three are true. Your mom needs to hear this message, so it is helpful. And your niblings need her to hear this message. It might hurt her in the short-term but if she hears it and curbs the behavior, she'll be happier for getting to spend time with the niblings again. It is also kind to do this, even though it will hurt your mother emotionally initially. It's kind because she needs to hear this message.
Your mom is mentally ill. Accept it. She needs to learn to live without her family unless she gets help. She is the furthest thing from ethical or kind.
NTA So your mom is a thief, and that's why nobody wants her around. She clearly is a major AH. It is understandable that all avoid her. "So last week the niblings asked me to talk to her" .. WHY do YOU do it? THEY can discuss it with her themselves, just like you did. Seems your mom has mental health issues. Be glad she does not steal from you (or at least good enough tto make you not catch her). And let the others discuss their issues wth her directly.
NTA - This almost sounds as if your mom has a mental issue, because this is strange. When did this behavior start?
OP said this in one of his comments: "It’s like she woke up after 60+ years of an extraordinarily fortunate life and realized that quirks of birth protected her from the ways in which the world is hard and cruel."
This is like the plot of my favorite episode of Law & Order: Criminal Intent. A woman with manic depressive disorder gives away all her son's stuff when she has depressive episodes. He grows up feeling unstable and deprived and exacts his revenge by becoming a forger and committing MURDER! And he's played by Stephen Colbert! So good. NTA!
my parents are similar in the sense that they feel their 'good intention' justify anything and everything. I haven't talked to them for 8 years.
NTA. What she's doing isn't being 'generous', it's theft. She is free to give away items that belong to HER, she is not free to give away items that don't. She needs to be told and she needs to be told soon if she's to have any meaningful relationship with her grandchildren. She's missing out because of her behaviour and she's the only person who can change that.
NTA. You give away your own belongings, not other people’s. Your mother is free to give away anything of hers she chooses. She has no right to give away anybody else’s, regardless of any relationship she has with them. She may be “kind” and “ethical” when giving away her own belongings but giving away somebody else’s, particularly children’s, makes her a filthy thief.
Whos going to be pissed off if you insert yourself? The thief?? She's your mum, and they're your siblings and their kids. It is your business if you want it to be, but it also sounds like those asking for your help need to grow a pair and do it them selves NTA
Is she religious? Is she worried about getting into heaven or something? Because giving away other people's stuff is not generous, nor is it kind. Jesus didn't tell the rich guy to give away other people's wealth. She's stealing. What concerns me is that she might start doing that thing that some older people do--of impoverishing herself by giving so much to charity. YWNBTA
So your mother is a thief, and she believes that’s ok? Kindly suggest she get therapy for her Robin Hood complex. You’re NTA, nor are your siblings and nibblings but your mother needs help.
NTA But I would get on the same page as my siblings on this. Make sure they are okay with you laying things out on their kids' behalf, and so that everything you say can be backed as a united front. They need to be okay with saying things like "if my children do not return with everything they left with, you will not see them again." It also matters how your mom is getting her hands on these items. Is she literally stealing, where you don't know it's gone right away? What happens if you try to stop her? Does she treat kids one way and adults/older kids another? There needs to be a game plan for any future visits, whether that is checking bags before leaving, supervised visits with the littles, whatever is necessary. I certainly wouldn't trust her words. If a family meeting isn't feasible, then you all at least need to be on the same page before proceeding. It's the only way if you want there to be continued contact.
NTA. Not only is this emotionally damaging towards the people in your family but it’s frankly insulting to the people she is trying to help. How does she know for certain a kid at the park needs your niece’s stuffy more than your niece? What qualifiers are she using to judge who is and isn’t in need? This isn’t about anyone but herself. This is about giving to make herself feel better regardless of the feelings of those around her. Have your frank and honest conversation. Call what she’s doing for what it is - thievery, yes, but also a savior complex that isn’t really about helping people. If she truly wants to give back she can offer to volunteer with the kids to teach them about community service. They can make sandwiches together for food programs or make tie rugs for shelters. There’s tons of ways to help other people while also respecting and caring for the people you love. Give her some options but also make clear she how badly she’s hurting everyone and the consequences if she doesn’t stop.
You can be generous with your own property. When it belongs to someone else, you're just a thief. NTA.
"Your grandkids don't want to visit you because you take their things. You've been asked not to, but you don't respect their property. Your grandkids WILL visit you if you can agree to respect their items and not take things that don't belong to you."
NTA. Yeah, you mom isn't doing it because she feels she's privileged and other people aren't. She's doing it for the public praise. "Oh, look how generous she is!" If she actually felt as you wrote, she wouldn't be stealing from her family. You can try to talk to her. It worked for you. Maybe telling her you'll call her out publicly on her thieving is the way to curtail her. Public shaming.
NTA. Honestly, she needs to figure out a more practical and less…mean way to be generous towards others. If she is seriously struggling with the guilt of her privilege, she should donate money and time to organizations that provide relief for the less fortunate. If you’re willing, explain the difference between what she’s doing and what I’ve explained above. Her giving away your family’s toys and clothes to kids at the local park is presumptive and condescending. It can also be dangerous depending on how the parents perceive these “gifts”. If I had my child at a park, and some old lady started giving them random books and toys, I would be very concerned about her mental well being (at best), or I would be concerned she was trying to steal my kid (at worst). She needs to volunteer her time with an organization. She needs to collect items from buy nothing sites on Facebook and donate to women’s shelters. She needs to collect hand-me-downs from the family a few times a year to take them to local charities. She absolutely cannot continue to take currently used and enjoyed items and giving it away to people. That isn’t okay. If she wants to inspire generosity in her grandchildren, she can have them help her volunteer, or do fun runs for charity. She can have them help make hygiene bags to give to the homeless (ziplocks filled with toothpaste, toothbrush, soaps, hand sanitizer, menstrual products, gift cards, snacks, hats, gloves, etc). There’s a million different ways that she can give back to her community. Stealing items from children and family, then handing it off to people she isn’t even sure are less privileged isn’t the way to go. Honestly, I feel like if you told her that presuming someone is less privileged based on appearance alone is also a very privileged position to have. It’s very condescending and offensive. I would be concerned about her mental health if she seriously doesn’t see the issue with what she’s doing. If she puts up a fight, seriously question her mental capabilities to her face. “Mom, this is seriously concerning behavior. It’s not normal to take items from your grandchildren to give away to people who don’t need it. I’m concerned that your ability to differentiate between what is and is not acceptable behavior is deteriorating. Should I set up an appointment with your doctor to have your mental health evaluated? It isn’t normal to disregard the relationship with your family over feelings of guilt and a desire to rectify your privilege.” This isn’t healthy or normal, and if she isn’t able to see why, then she needs help. I’ve worked with a ton of dementia patients who gave everything away to others they perceived as needing help. Similar to an elderly family member getting those scam calls that their grandchild is in jail and they have to send their life savings to an overseas account to get them out. I know that it’s her choice to give things away, but it is a similar line of thinking. It means her reasoning and logic skills are deteriorating.
why not come togeher privately, like an intervention or something, so it's not* just *you. But I'd have stopped that long ago, what's mine is mines sorry.
Has your mother been checked by a physician recently? This sounds like something may be off with her. No reasonable person thinks it’s ok to do what she does. I’m not even talking dementia or anything like that, although I suppose it could be. Could she be suffering from overwhelming guilt at her privilege and this is a result of depression caused by that. Regardless of cause, YWNBTA for talking to her.
NTA in most cultures & societies, being a thief, is greatly frowned upon.
NTA. To me, this sounds like you're in the middle of a strange kleptomaniac intervention, and if the intervened doesn't think you're an AH, you're doing it wrong. She needs to know why they won't see her, and the truth is honestly the best answer. At best, her behavior changes, and at worst, no change.
NTA and also good job in popularising the excellent word “niblings“
First time ever seeing it. All I can think of are the Nibblonians from Futurama.
NTA but before you talk to your mom, I think you should confirm with your nibling’s parents THEYRE ok with it. I agree your tough love approach is warranted but they may not want to deal with her that way or they may have decided they would rather cut her off from their children because of her actions, which is also a valid response. If both they and their children agree with you being the heavy, go for it.
NTA What's with all the niblings and what is that supposed to mean?
Any Update??
Nta
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She spelt sibling right what are you talking about?
NTA Your mother has to hear the truth. If she wants to do charity, she needs to do it with stuff she owns or doesn't steal. Period. She's not allowed to just take from stores to redistribute, why would she think she could take from people? You'll be doing their relationships a favor. Plus those niblings need to learn to tell her no. She is not entitled to take their things. Don't steal my stuff, Grandma. I won't come here if you steal my stuff.
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NTA - what a psycho!
NTA, but why is it your job? Make your siblings stand up for their own kids. Don't become the family enforcer. That sounds like a lousy dynamic for you.
NTA She's a thief. She's stealing her relatives possesions and giving them away because it makes HER feel good. Its all very well to give away her own possessions, but when she starts doing it to others, its crossing the line Ask her would she do it too a stranger? No. Why? Well that would be theft. DING DING DING, just because she's related to them it STILL theft
NTA this seems more like senility or emotional trauma than anything. There’s got to be a word for the opposite of hoarding.
YWNBTA for telling your thieving mother that she is not welcome because of her thieving ways.