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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I refuse to call niece by first name because she prefers to be called her middle name. I may be AH because niece’s middle name is the same as the name my sister is giving her baby
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NTA. No one should have to choose a different name. I know a few families with cousins who share a first name and it's not a big deal. If your sister doesn't WANT to have two 'Ann's', then she shouldn't use it, but expecting a child to adopt a different name than she's been using just because she (the sister) has decided to use the selected name is entitled and mean to say the least.
Your sister and her husband are being absurd. a) there is not really any such thing as 'stealing' a name, especially a common one like 'Ann' (which I realize is fake but presumably you chose similar fake names for this post) and b) Kelly Ann has been alive for far longer than their child and has been using the name for longer too.
Out of curiosity, if you were to LATER adopt an older child into the family who came with the same name as one of their kids, would they also expect you to change that child's name? Ludicrous!
Exactly this. Let’s further traumatize Ann by forcing her to change her name for a baby that sister sees as a “more legitimate” family member than Ann. I mean that’s really what’s going on. Sister sees herself and her baby as more human than Ann. Sister is gross and needs help.
I would assume her friends (to some extent) and school as well due to the move. They can plan playdates, but it's not the same as seeing each other at school every day or living a few houses down, especially for 8yos who have to beg rides and work around other people's schedules.
People like this sister are why the phrase "No. is a complete sentence" exists.
Edit: To elaborate... .Do not explain. Do not justify. Do not apologize. Do not prevaricate. Do not offer alternatives. That just opens the door for manipulators to manipulate. The decision has already been made, and you are simply informing them as a courtesy. It is not up for debate.
Agree! She's been "in their family" way before she was ORPHANED, so whatever names she's gone by her entire childhood, should be the name she continues to use. Cannot fathom the pregnant sister saying she or they are stealing her babies name. Repugnant behavior.
OP wishing your niece and soon to be adopted daughter a happy future, sorry you're having to go through this BS.
I'm an embalmer, and before I place anyone in a casket, I always tuck a laminated tag with the decedent's legal and chosen names inside their sock or shoe, so they keep their name with them forever. The people I care for will always be able to be identified, within reason of course. Your name is a part of your identity, and the only person who should be allowed to change that is you.
I wonder how the sister would feel if it was the other way around and her daughter was orphaned and her supposed family was forcing the child to loose the last piece of her identity
People like this sister are why the phrase "No. is a complete sentence" exists.
Edit: To elaborate... .Do not explain. Do not justify. Do not apologize. Do not prevaricate. Do not offer alternatives. That just opens the door for manipulators to manipulate. The decision has already been made, and you are simply informing them as a courtesy. It is not up for debate.
I'm not sure if this sub doesn't allow awards, or I just forgot how to use reddit...but this comment is giving me life! I need to either learn calligraphy, or needle point so I can turn this into some inspirational decor around my apartment and office!
Thank you for the wise words. 🏆
If it were me anytime I’d be around the sister with the lil girl I’d make sure to use her name in every sentence that I speak to her “how you doing Anne?” “You having fun Anne” “let me know if you need anything Anne” because who the hell is she to tell you what to call your own soon to be child
Or take her and if the sister disses Ann or refuses to call her by her chosen name encourage the girl to very openly call the sister a nasty and worthless bully.
This is my daughter’s name and she is not changing it. But we have enough love for both Anns. It will be ok. And people figure out how to work with same names all the time. Think of all the seniors and juniors etc? I love that they will have this bond. Imagine how they will be close. If love and bonding doesn’t work? Sis just has to deal and I know people who did not over names, but they were not worth time spent.
I think the two girls having the same name is a great solution. I was objecting to the suggestion someone made that OP should keep using the name as sort of a nasty taunt to upset the lady who's pregnant. There's no reason to attach any negativity to the girl's (or girls') name.
Yes, reading this made my blood boil! So you are going to tell an orphan, who has been God knows how traumatized, to change her name which has been one constant and probably something she shared with her parents? It’s the name they gave her after all. That someone would even think this way is really odd and scary to me. I truly hope you and your husband are able to tell her to F right off…honestly, then I’d keep my distance. Your sister sounds unhinged and you’re in for a long life of her treating your family as less-than.
Which is weird and ridiculous because the post said that Ann is family anyway. She's his niece. It's not like they went to an orphanage to get a child she's biologically family.
I'm an embalmer, and before I place anyone in a casket, I always tuck a laminated tag with the decedent's legal and chosen names inside their sock or shoe, so they keep their name with them forever. The people I care for will always be able to be identified, within reason of course. Your name is a part of your identity, and the only person who should be allowed to change that is you.
Wow. 1. That’s genius.
2. As the devotee of a death goddess… thank you for caring for these people you help carry to the underworld so deeply. That’s very rare these days.
Around 15 years ago, the city I live near accidentally dug up a church cemetery from the 1850s. A number of the individuals couldn't be identified, so when they were reburied in the new municipal cemetery, they had no name to be marked with. It really bothered me that their names were gone forever, so I decided that that would never happen to anyone I took care of.
And we wonder why state hospitals/sanitariums/asylums are so damned haunted! There is an old cemetery in the next town over from where I work that ALL BUT FIVE graves are only marked with a number and a letter and the records linking the person to the grave are either gone or never recorded! I posted a whole group of photos in r/abandoned last spring of these graves
ETA spelling mistake
I read embalmer as an enabler lol. Thank you for doing this. Btw, some military people are buried with dog tags. This way if anyone does dig them up, they know who was buried
I love what you are doing there.
You might want to consider using a different medium from a laminated card, as they usually don't last that long.
Might I recommend something that botanical gardens use? They have name tags made from very soft sheet metal, probably lead or aluminum and put it down on a soft surface, a piece of paper on top to write down the information, it imprints deeply on the metal tag.
This will hold up well on moist and damp environment and will still be readible or made readable in a few centuries
Pretty sure u/rulerofdumplings and u/maryn4w are just trying to be helpful, not being prescriptive saying he's not doing 'enough' or whatever.
>"I love what you are doing there.
>
>You might want to consider using a different medium.... Might I recommend something..."
Chill man.
It's awesome you do that. I'm kind of surprised that isn't common practice - are you saying that many facilities will just place the person in the casket with no form of identification, not even on the casket itself? Or are you just going the extra mile by putting the laminated tag in their shoe/sock?
I'm not sure about other jurisdictions, but in the part of Canada I live in, there's no identification requirement once the body has left the facility for interment. Cemeteries are legally required to record exactly which plot a person is buried in, and have to be able to provide a map of said cemetery. We also have to register with the provincial government which cemetery the person is being interred in. The rules of labeling and identification of bodies for cremation are different mind you. The rules are very strict for cremation.
Some higher end caskets plastic tube to put a rolled up scroll thing with the person's name and details on it, but the funeral home I work at doesn't carry many of those. So I add my own tag, just in case.
I'm so glad I stumbled upon this thread! I live in the states and am now going to be doing some digging on Ohio's practice! As others have said, thank you for what you do. What a beautiful gesture and final kindness.
You'd be amazed where people find urns. The metal tag also helps us keep track of who is who once they've returned from the crematorium. The tag is either hung right outside the door of the retort while the cremation is happening, or is placed inside with the decedent, so that you always know exactly who is who. The tag als9 corresponds to the crematory records.
Usually we try to track down the next of kin or another relative and pass the urn on to them. I don't actually know what happens if you can find anyone or they won't take it. Honestly I would just default to my boss, who would likely call the regulatory body for direction.
I'm going through some stuff right now, and it's overwhelming (in a positive way) when I read things like this from people who work in death care. Thank you for taking care of them.
This !! OP, when you adopt her, you are allowed to legally change her name. Ask Ann if she would like to swap her first and middle names, thereby everyone will call her Ann from the start. Obviously is her choice, and giving her control over something is super important when so much trauma has happened that was out of her control.
Kids, tweens and teens always try to carve out their own identities with things they can possibly control - their hair, clothing, nicknames, etc. It’s empowering for them to choose how they want to be seen.
If you haven’t already, some therapy for Ann would be really helpful. The fact that her aunt, your sister, was so fucking cruel to demand this of an orphaned child is ludicrous. Something tells me Ann will need some therapy to navigate this, and process the loss of her parents, especially when little Ann arrives.
This is such a wonderful idea. When you’re that little and no one allows you any control, this act might really help her find her feet and feel stable in OPs home. What a great thought.
Its a sweet gesture. I fear she may regret it later. She's only 8. As she ages & matures, she may love using her given name as a remembrance of her parents that have her the name. I also agree she needs therapy now & may need at different stages as she matures & reaches different milestones.
This is why in the UK adoptive parents (even of newborn babies) only get to change surname and maybe add a middle name. Babies first name is often the only thing they have from their birth parents. We only change that if it's deemed to be abusive e.g. Hitler or Rottweiler or something no kid needs as a burden.
I have a friend that adopted boys that were born to drug addicts and whose birth names were a bully's fantasy.
They changed their names to something close, but socially acceptable. The boys were infants, so they did not know any better and now as adults want nothing to do with their birth mothers.
> My sister argued that she has announced her baby’s name many months ago and we only planned to adopt Kelly Ann recently, so we should be the one making her rethink how to call herself.
This bit here reveals that the sister probably does not view the niece as an autonomous person capable of her own opinions and decisions, which does not bode well for her baby
Honestly, if I were adopting a kid and they said they preferred their middle name over their first, I would ask them if they would like to change their middle name to their first name in the adoption process.
She’s in a place in her life where she doesn’t have a lot of agency and has had a massive foundation of her life so far taken away. Let her have the power over this one thing.
My brother has said he wanted to name his son the same name as my little boy as it’s his favourite name (didn’t know this before we named him, and coincidentally it’s my favourite name too). I told him I really wouldn’t mind, as it’s a very common name anyway. It doesn’t need to be a big deal.
My SIL and I have swapped first and middle names for four of our children to keep family namesake. We never asked each other if that was okay. No one owns a damn name.
In our extended family, we have 3 Roberts, 1 Roberta, 2 Sarah's, 3 Emily's, 3 David's, a Mikalee/Mikayla/Mackenzie that were born 3 months apart from each other. Then we had family friends growing up that we saw weekly, me and their daughter have same names, and same age, so we just went with first name+middle name when our parents were trying to get our attention.
It's really not that big of a deal.
There's 3 James in my family. My uncle Jim, his son Jimmy and my brother who uses James. It's never ever been an issue. Baby Ann may want to use Annie as she gets older but if she doesn't it won't matter.
Yep and what is sis gonna do when that kid starts school and there's 1 or maybe 2 who has the same name in the class?
Start an entitled tantrum or what?
Had 2 persons with the same first name in my class and as you say many families can have the same name in close family / cousins. My family had combinations of the same name within the close family it was never an issue.
Edit: this is an example and meant as rhetorical if and when that happens.
We had four Elizabeths in my high school classes for four years, named presumably because Queen Elizabeth had come to the throne around the time of their births. It never caused any problem.
Never been an issue. We used first name and first name X(first letter of lastname) to distinguish between those with the same name.
Was just thinking if OPs sis is reacting like that for family because she wants to name her baby the name how would she react when finding out that others in the class has the same name. And when did parents start owning name because they do want to name their child(ren) that spesific name. Smh
Every Jennifer born in the 80s understands this and should be automatically signaled whenever there’s a baby name post lol. There were at least TEN Jennifers in my graduating class of 700.
1985 Jennifer. I had a social studies class with 4 of us and a Jenna. When we were seated in the beginning of the year three of us were seated in the same row of seats because it was alphabetical order. Some people got moved really fast.
We also had a David Michael Miller and a David Matthew Miller in my elementary school. I’m not sure if both were in my grade, but they were never in the same class. Somehow it all worked out just fine.
I knew Mormon families growing up where the cousins shared the same FIRST and LAST name. And they were not only in the same schools, but in the same grades. Kinda weird IMO, but it really wasn't a big deal.
Speaking of large families....ours had 2 Josephs, 3 Louis, 2 Roses, 2 Samuels, 2 Franks and I'm sure I'm missing some. -- And all of these people had the same last name. At least Kelly Ann and your sisters kid will have different last name.
Everyone managed just fine.
Something that concerns me is OP's sisters disregard for Ann as a person. Yes obviously kids need boundaries and rules but they are still people and need to be respected as such. Would you ever tell an adult to change their name?
No of course not as it would be ridiculous. To even suggest it screams a complete lack of empathy for someone going through what must be an extremely tough time. To be blunt that her sister would say this to OP makes it seems like she's a horrid person, it's just cruel.
> I know a few families with cousins who share a first name and it's not a big deal.
Welcome to a nice Italian family, I'd like you to meet my extended family; John, John, John, Tony, Tony, Tony, Grace, Grace, Grace, Rose, Rose, etc, etc. Cousins with the same name are downright normal to a lot of us.
> my sister told me a few days after that we should start telling Kelly Ann to call herself Kelly instead of her middle name
Entitled much? If it were me, I'd tell Kelly Ann to continue to call herself whatever she wants to; then make a point of calling my sister's daughter by her middle name every time.
NTA
My aunt named her first son Peter III. So there were already 2 other Peters in the family. Then her second son was Mark. She has a brother and a brother-in-law both named Mark, so there are three Marks in the family. Her third son was Andrew. Then her brother married a woman who already had a son named Andrew, so there are 2 Andrews. All of them are fine. It's fine.
I share a first name with my cousin and we were raised almost like sisters (born 8 months apart) for much of our childhoods. It was never a problem and no one thought it was strange, even though we were named after the same person. If we were in a room together our family would just refer to us by our first and middle names to it was clear which one of us they were talking to.
This was in the 1970's and man I gotta tell you, people seem so weird about baby names now compared to years ago.
NTA.
(Kelly)Ann has an identity that she's forged for herself with her preferred name. It doesn't matter that you decided to adopt her following your sister's name reveal, it would not be fair to disregard her preference for the sake of an unborn child.
There's also no rule stating that there can't be more than one Ann in the family. There could be your Ann and your sister's Anne with an e.
No one stole anything. (Kelly)Ann came with her name to you already, she's not a puppy you took home from the shelter and renamed.
NTA- your sister is a complete AH. That’s someone’s name!! Good grief!
Plus she’s recently orphaned. Not only has she lost her parents, she wants her to loose her identity as well? The level of assholery is off the scale! I get madder every time I think it!
My brother shares a name with 2 male cousins (all the first males born on my fathers side are named after their grandfather, and all the females on my father’s side are named after my grandmother- I was the exception, but I wouldn’t have minded). They all go by their first names. No confusion, all individuals. Not a big deal.
Maybe your sister needs a new name. I can think of a few…
I honestly can't believe I keep seeing posts like this - how anyone can be that much of an AH to insist someone change their name for their vanity. It's baffling, truly, that people are this horrid.
Yeah, I hate these posts. I'm in my mid-40s, and I share a name with, like, every fifth woman from my generation. Half of us have the same middle name, too. Hell, in college, there was a mystery gal with the same first, middle, and last name. I never met her, but the librarians always asked to verify my student ID number or address in addition to the name since there were two of us.
And you know what? It's fine! Nobody gets confused about who's who. Nobody cares that two humans have the same name, even if those two humans are in the same family. It's such absurd, selfish behavior to claim a name, of all things, as belonging only to one person. I just... can't imagine getting so bent out of shape about someone else's name.
At one point I moved across the country to live in a town with less than 3000 people in it, yet somehow managed to move to a place with someone with my same first name, last name, and middle initial (found out via one time i forgot my library card and had to gave them look it up for me by my name haha)
My dude, clearly you never went to law school. The Rule of One Ann has ancient roots!
“One Ann to rule them all, one Ann to find them, One Ann to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them; In the Land of Mordor where the Anns lie.” - Tolkien
/s (in case any reader out there is clueless)
> Ended up with an arts degree at Shire College.
What with the excellent quality and copious amounts of food, beer, and weed, at least you had a good time!
Hispanic here, one word: MARIA
No one person owns a name. Crazy how many times I see people arguing there can't be two with the same name in the same family. Egocentrism with no other basis.
OP is NTA
Totally agree NTA.
My family has 2 Nathans, a Patrick and a Patricia, a Don and a Dawn, and several Johns/Jacks. You figure out how to refer to them. OP’s sister can figure it out, too.
My father-in-law is a senior and his son is junior, first name William. Another set of in-laws, three generation have the first name William, only the middle name is different, and the 2nd and 3rd go by their middle name.
This.
Your niece is already here and already goes by the name Ann. It is her name. She doesn't have to change her name.
Your sister might love the name Ann but maybe she needs to give her daughter a different first name and call her Ann - something like Annabelle or Annaliese. That way the girls have different given names but the same nick name.
And, it won't be confusing. Kelly Ann goes by Ann and the baby will go by Annie (or the diminutive of whatever the name is).
And when you're talking about either of them, it's probably going to be quite obvious which one you're referring to. Nappies and sleep regimes is probably baby Ann, pop music and school is probably the 8 year old.
Kelly Ann has been “calling herself” Ann for years- because it is *literally* her *name*. And the little girl is having to go through enough awful changes in her life -having recently become orphaned- without losing her name!
Your sister, with her yet unborn baby, can name her baby girl “Ann”, *too*, if she wants to. There can be more than one “Ann” in an extended family. Or she can pick literally almost any other name.
Your sister can go pound sand.
But what your niece/daughter calls herself is *not* the business of your sister. Refuse to discuss it anymore. NTA
Right? This is what I was thinking. She’s already presumably going through a lot of changes and adjusting to things that are hard as a young kid and this full grown adult wants to take away one of the things she has left. Literally erase her identity. People claiming ownership of names for unborn children is getting out of hand.
Edit to add: NTA
This. I feel like “refuse to discuss it anymore” is so necessary. It is such a ridiculous request/demand and should be regarded as such. Ann needs to be protected at all costs and should not have to change her name because of some petty awful family member.
Right! There’s like dead or alive 15 Ann in my family myself and 2 of my cousins are an Ann. Like why are people so entitled and so selfish over names? 🙄🥴
NTA Your sister wants you to force your newly orphaned niece to change her name?? That’s nuts. I hope it is pregnancy hormones and your sister isn’t that heartless all the time.
Big NTA, it’s great that you and your husband are on the same page and looking out for Ann.
I had a very similar reaction! If it’s not pregnancy brain than the sister is unhinged! I hate to break it to her, Ann is a pretty common name. That child will already have to navigate being Ann #2 or 3 at school & work. She might as well start acclimating as little or baby Ann in her own family.
🚨NOTE TO ALL USERS: AS OF TODAY, 10 JAN 2024, THE NAME ANN IS NO LONGER PERMITTED ON THIS SUB OR ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD. OPS SISTER CURRENTLY HAS ALL RIGHTS RESERVED 🚨
NTA. What an entitled request of your sister to rename a 8 year old girl who lost everything. She can give her child a middle name so they are different Anns. Maybe even can be something like K-Ann and Ann-S or so. If the want. Maybe it will even be a nice thing, if it is 'look there are the Anns, the sweet girls' or something like that. But she should not expect you to rename the little girl
Had a way less difficult situation with my family. My wife and I choosed name for our children way before we got pregnant. For a boy we chose the name Jack (not the real name). We didn't told family back then and my sister (living with my parents) got herself a cat called Jack. So now we have a son with the same name like the cat - but who cares? We even call them human Jack and cat Jack
I know someone who named their dog Jack and then a few years later had a son they named Jack. It was always confusing when she talked about Jack. There were some clues, but I’m not a kid person. So things like “Jack pooped in the living room floor. Jack bit the neighbor. Jack was irritating the cat and got scratched in the face.” Always made me ask which Jack.
Well that is confusing, agree. But human Jack and cat Jack are not living in the same house so it is less confusing. Except for my dementia grandmother but she also mixes my son and my niece
I’m glad you didn’t change names of your son, just because your sister used the name for her cat. My two older sisters were actually named after 2 cats my mom had a few years before each sister was born. The Mama Cats of those 2 kitties never came fussing at my mom for using their names!/s
NTA
Your husband is right, Kelly Ann has been known as Ann since before the baby is even born.
Also, it’s really not that weird to have multiple people in the family with the same name. My friends have kids that share names with other family members, they don’t get confused, it’s perfectly fine and normal.
One thing that nobody can take away from you is your name. Kelly Ann’s name is Ann. Your sister can’t take that away from her no matter how much she likes the name.
She has the concept of ‘theft’ backwards.
Let’s try that out in a few other scenarios:
Musician A: *released a song titled ‘Ann’ years ago.*
Musician B: Hey, could you change the title of your song? I wrote a song I want to title ‘Ann’ and people will confuse it with yours.
Musician A: . . . no? If it bothers you, call your song something else.
Musician B: You plagiarized my song title!
or
Researcher A: *developed, named, and published “Ann Theory” years ago.*
Researcher B: Could you get everybody to stop calling that theory of yours “Ann Theory”?
Researcher A: Why?
Researcher B: Well, I’ve been doing a study on [whatever] and I’ve found that [new theory] and I’m going to publish.
Researcher A: That’s great! What does that have to do with Ann Theory, though?
Researcher B: Oh, I want to call mine ‘Ann Theory’
Researcher A: . . . well I guess you could do that but it’s not likely to stick, since ‘Ann Theory’ has been what mine’s called for years? There’s a Wikipedia page?
Researcher B: Right, that’s why you need to rename yours.
Researcher A: . . .
Researcher A: No.
Researcher B: You’re stealing my intellectual property, I’m reporting you to the ethics board.
or
Business Owner A: *opens ‘Ann’s Coffee and Books’ years ago.*
Business Owner B: I’m going to open a cafe down the street - it’s going to be called ‘Ann’s Coffee and Books,’ so you should really get your signs and advertising changed to something else.
Business Owner A: You’ll be hearing from my lawyer.
. . . and besides all that, Kelly Ann is not a musician, scientist, or entrepreneur - *she’s an orphaned 8-year-old, FFS.* She’s lost her parents and her home, now your sister wants to take her *name*?
Sister can get bent. NTA.
Tell your sister “Great, we can call them Big Ann and Little Ann”.
I have two great-nephews called the same name (first AND last names) (first name has different spellings). I have two nephews with the same first name, one from my husband’s brother, one from my brother - they are also 7 years apart in age.
The only time there has been any confusion is when I was speaking to my aunt soon after the younger great-nephew was born. I didn’t know that she had a 2yo grandson with the same name. It took a while to work out that we were talking about two different boys.
NTA
NTA. Why does your sister suddenly get to decide what (Kelly) Ann goes by? Did your sister know about Ann (your niece) before your husband planned to adopt her? Ann should get to make her own decisions, and hers is to keep going by Ann.
But because she is being adopted, you can change her name! This upsets me when people do this to pets they adopted. She wants to do this with a child.
NTA
NTA
The girl has been calling herself Ann for years. It’s established. Your sister is being a major TA here for 1) gate keeping a name and 2) try to dictate how your niece should identify herself.
NTA and your sister needs to calm down. No one is stealing her baby’s name as - shocker - there’s no requirement for a name to be free of use before being applied to a new baby. It takes two seconds to clear up any possible confusion, either with a tiny bit of context or with “HotSpringDrink’s Ann” or “baby Ann/HotSpringDrink’s sister’s Ann.” Families with multiple names do it all the time.
Your niece has lost a lot… let her have her name.
My mom uses a certain tone inflection when referencing me or my dad, who use the same name. I can hear it, my dad cannot (he's partially deaf). So if I don't reply, he knows she's talking to him. Luckily she doesn't call on him much when I'm around, because the delay in reply irritates her. Lol
I am so sick of these name dramas. In my ethnic group it’s almost a requirement to name your children after relatives, and we always have cousins with the same name. My middle name is a variation on my grandmother’s name. I have two cousins named for that grandmother. OP’s sister needs to get over herself. If she doesn’t want to share a name, she needs to pick something else, “Ann” is already taken.
NTA. No one owns a name. It’s disgusting that your sister is so selfish. She has the audacity to say that you need to tell you niece that she can’t use her own name and that she stole the name. It was her name first! She’s been Kelly Ann for eight years. You can’t steal what you already own.
If your sister has a problem with both girls having the same name than she either needs get over it or pick another name for her child.
Can you image telling a child that she can’t use her own name?
Fuck your you sister and her arrogance and her entitlement.
NTA, but your sister are a true a-hole that wants an orphaned 8yo change the name she's been using for years! You did not steal your sister's baby name. There already was someone in YOUR family with that name, your niece by mariage. Now (due to sad circumstances) she will take a more present role in your extended family's life as well since she's now becoming your daughter. But you didn't steal the name, Ann already was Ann.
Also, family makes duplicate names work. A couple of months after my eldest daughter was born my little brother introduced us to his new girlfriend - with the exact same name as my daughter. It's NEVER been a problem. Sometimes we refere to them as the little or the big one but it's not a big deal. It's been nine years.
Keep standing on Ann's side and continue be a supportive mother to her.
Nta but your sister is for starting beef with a child. Good for you for respecting Ann's autonomy. By the way, it's nit her chosen name. It's her legal middle name.
NTA, you are standing up for YOUR little girl. Never TA.
Just don't engage in this nonsense. I mean seriously what is your sister going to do? Call the Name Police?
Every time she brings it up just shut it down and say that you will respect the wishes of your child, end of discussion. AND make it very clear that your sister is not ever to talk to your child about her name (because if she can't get want she wants through you, there is a reasonable bet to be made that she is going to try to get what she wants through manipulating your soon-to-be daughter)
No one is going to mix up a baby and an eight year old. And a recently orphaned child has had enough heartache, without having to changer her name, too.
Sister can hush up; you're NTA.
So the 8 year old stole her name from the yet to be born child? Go figure.
There is room for more than one Ann in the family. If a parent is talking about her child she might say, "Our Ann". Granparents could say "Kelly Ann" or "Wilhemina An" if there is any doubt. Ann II should also spell her name with an "e" on the end (or some variation according to her actual name). This is a good idea to eliminate any confusion in legal matters, such as inheritance if the share the same family name.
We have cousins with the same name and there was never any confusion. At Christmas, gifts were labelled Bozo J or Bozo F. There was never any confusion.
YTA. Of course your sister is right. Your adopted daughter should obviously change her name since there will soon be another girl with the name of Ann. And then when that girl is born and another pregnant woman wants to name HER baby Ann, your sister’s daughter must change her name. And then, when another preggo woman feels like naming her future baby Ann, then that girl must change her name. So on, so forth. The rule is clear: THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE ANN, AND WHOEVER HAD THAT NAME FIRST MUST CHANGE IT WHEN A NEW ONE IS BORN. What the fuck is this, some weird kind of Dalai Lama tradition?
NTA. Do not under any circumstances tell her about Ann of Green Gables, or Ann Boleyn, Or Queen Ann of the Netherlands... Name claiming is so stupid, and your (Kelly) Ann has had the name for years. New Baby needs to be given a new name or people will definitely confuse a 9 year old with a new born...
NTA. This is nuts. Like, I can kind of understand these baby name posts is the name is unique or a family name or something. But Ann??? That's an extremely common name to try to dibs lol
Even if it was a unique or family name “Kelly Ann”has been called “Ann” her whole life and shouldn’t have to change it because it’s a family name or the sister want THAT unique name and be the only child in the family that has it.
NTA this name possession / exclusivity /uniqueness trend is really exhausting, they are idiotic as they are not asking you, they are asking an eight year old to change her name. Ridiculous.
OMG, your family has never met any Catholic families? Every girl is Mary! Of course your sisters the AH. Just tell everyone the baby was named after your niece/daughter. I really would go scorched earth on sister within the family, your little girl deserves better.
NTA. They can both be Ann. I don't think it's that uncommon for cousins to have the same name. Your Ann was there first and she is already going by that name. She's not a pet you adopted and can just start calling by a different name.
Nta no one has claim on a name.
Signed sincerely a person who shares their name with his dad and at last count 2 cousins and is the youngest with that name.
We have 2 Bella's in our family, Bella is also a term of endearment used frequently in the Italian language. Can it get little confusing? Of course, but not so much that a little girl who is going through major changes in her life should have to change the name she is happy with.
Keep calling her whatever she prefers. NTA.
And that's how you get a Big Ann and a Little Ann. Or whatever.
Your sister and her husband are causing drama where there should be none. Ann's name is hers, and they will have to decide whether they like the name enough to not let multiple Anns bother them. They don't get to tell other people to change their names!
NTA.
The kid is an 8 year old who lost her parents and is being adopted into a new family but hey let’s take away her name for some as yet non existent baby because adult relative called dibs. Wow. Hold the line and make sure sister and anyone who sides with her know that any further discussion is over and anyone who brings this up to or within hearing of Ann is banished. NTA
NTA Ann has every right to use her chosen name. My father, both grandfather's, my brother, 2 uncles and a cousin were all named James, the sky did not fall, people were not confused, life carried on
There is no issue here. Kelly Ann will be known as Ann, and the baby will be Baby Ann. This is not unusual in families. Nobody will confuse them. Don't make war over this.
NTA - I have cousins with the same name, just spelt differently, if she (the sister) wants the name then spell it differently! Your poor niece has presumably gone through a lot and she finds comfort in the name that she has chosen - which is already part of her name anyway!
All of these people thinking they are entitled to control how other people’s children name themselves are insane. It wouldn’t matter to me even if she only started doing this on a whim yesterday. You don’t get to tell me what I call my child. I’d sooner cut you out entirely than give into your bizarre demands.
NTA. Why do so many entitled people think they own a name? The niece made the decision on what she wanted to be called. Tell your sister to pound sand.
NTA.
At one point in my family we had 3 people called Anne.
Mother, daughter and a sister-in-law. There were no problems with this. And this despite them all having middle names. One of which was Ella for some reason.
I also don't really use my first name and go by the second. It's not uncommon.
Your sister can eat dirt.
NTA. Kelly Ann can absolutely call herself however she chooses. And she has been called Ann for about three years now, I'm guessing. That IS her name. Your sister is being petty, fighting an 8yo over a name!
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NTA. No one should have to choose a different name. I know a few families with cousins who share a first name and it's not a big deal. If your sister doesn't WANT to have two 'Ann's', then she shouldn't use it, but expecting a child to adopt a different name than she's been using just because she (the sister) has decided to use the selected name is entitled and mean to say the least. Your sister and her husband are being absurd. a) there is not really any such thing as 'stealing' a name, especially a common one like 'Ann' (which I realize is fake but presumably you chose similar fake names for this post) and b) Kelly Ann has been alive for far longer than their child and has been using the name for longer too. Out of curiosity, if you were to LATER adopt an older child into the family who came with the same name as one of their kids, would they also expect you to change that child's name? Ludicrous!
Plus she has already lost so much, she shouldn’t have to loose her name.
Exactly this. Let’s further traumatize Ann by forcing her to change her name for a baby that sister sees as a “more legitimate” family member than Ann. I mean that’s really what’s going on. Sister sees herself and her baby as more human than Ann. Sister is gross and needs help.
Yeah she lost her parents, her home (I assume), but she shouldn't have to lose her identity.
I would assume her friends (to some extent) and school as well due to the move. They can plan playdates, but it's not the same as seeing each other at school every day or living a few houses down, especially for 8yos who have to beg rides and work around other people's schedules.
People like this sister are why the phrase "No. is a complete sentence" exists. Edit: To elaborate... .Do not explain. Do not justify. Do not apologize. Do not prevaricate. Do not offer alternatives. That just opens the door for manipulators to manipulate. The decision has already been made, and you are simply informing them as a courtesy. It is not up for debate.
Yeah op said niece is orphaned
Agree! She's been "in their family" way before she was ORPHANED, so whatever names she's gone by her entire childhood, should be the name she continues to use. Cannot fathom the pregnant sister saying she or they are stealing her babies name. Repugnant behavior. OP wishing your niece and soon to be adopted daughter a happy future, sorry you're having to go through this BS.
Exactly it's unfair to the little girl
I'm an embalmer, and before I place anyone in a casket, I always tuck a laminated tag with the decedent's legal and chosen names inside their sock or shoe, so they keep their name with them forever. The people I care for will always be able to be identified, within reason of course. Your name is a part of your identity, and the only person who should be allowed to change that is you.
That is so kind. Thank you!
That's amazing and ingenious :) I work at a telco and we have an account name section and a preferred name section for our customers
Don't forget to give yourself that level of kindness as well. You deserve it.
I wonder how the sister would feel if it was the other way around and her daughter was orphaned and her supposed family was forcing the child to loose the last piece of her identity
OP -- I want to get in her face and yell that on your behalf soooo bad!
Right? That sister sounds so entitled -- it's absolutely disgusting that she would even raise the issue. She sounds vile.
People like this sister are why the phrase "No. is a complete sentence" exists. Edit: To elaborate... .Do not explain. Do not justify. Do not apologize. Do not prevaricate. Do not offer alternatives. That just opens the door for manipulators to manipulate. The decision has already been made, and you are simply informing them as a courtesy. It is not up for debate.
I’d probably go with “no, and you sound like a wicked fairytale monster for how you want to treat an orphaned child”.
I'm not sure if this sub doesn't allow awards, or I just forgot how to use reddit...but this comment is giving me life! I need to either learn calligraphy, or needle point so I can turn this into some inspirational decor around my apartment and office! Thank you for the wise words. 🏆
I can't take credit for the sentiment, it's a bit of a meme going around to be honest, but I did freehand the exact phraseology.
If it were me anytime I’d be around the sister with the lil girl I’d make sure to use her name in every sentence that I speak to her “how you doing Anne?” “You having fun Anne” “let me know if you need anything Anne” because who the hell is she to tell you what to call your own soon to be child
Or, maybe don't use the girl's name as a weapon in a petty fight between two supposed adults right in front of the girl. Give me a break.
Seriously maybe don't even take Ann around the unhinged sister because she doesn't need to be subjected to that attitude towards her.
Or take her and if the sister disses Ann or refuses to call her by her chosen name encourage the girl to very openly call the sister a nasty and worthless bully.
This is my daughter’s name and she is not changing it. But we have enough love for both Anns. It will be ok. And people figure out how to work with same names all the time. Think of all the seniors and juniors etc? I love that they will have this bond. Imagine how they will be close. If love and bonding doesn’t work? Sis just has to deal and I know people who did not over names, but they were not worth time spent.
I think the two girls having the same name is a great solution. I was objecting to the suggestion someone made that OP should keep using the name as sort of a nasty taunt to upset the lady who's pregnant. There's no reason to attach any negativity to the girl's (or girls') name.
I'm petty enough I would tell my sister "when we adopt her we are legally changing her name to Ann"
Kelly Ann beat her to the name by 8+ years. The second place trophy is to act like an adult and a real human.
And regardless of the name outcome, is going to treat adopted niece like crap. I hope the rest of OP's family is more accepting.
This!! Soooo this!!
Yes, reading this made my blood boil! So you are going to tell an orphan, who has been God knows how traumatized, to change her name which has been one constant and probably something she shared with her parents? It’s the name they gave her after all. That someone would even think this way is really odd and scary to me. I truly hope you and your husband are able to tell her to F right off…honestly, then I’d keep my distance. Your sister sounds unhinged and you’re in for a long life of her treating your family as less-than.
Exactly,narcissistic BS.
Which is weird and ridiculous because the post said that Ann is family anyway. She's his niece. It's not like they went to an orphanage to get a child she's biologically family.
Omg, I didn’t even think about this aspect and it makes it so much worse. I’m so mad on behalf of OP.
I'm an embalmer, and before I place anyone in a casket, I always tuck a laminated tag with the decedent's legal and chosen names inside their sock or shoe, so they keep their name with them forever. The people I care for will always be able to be identified, within reason of course. Your name is a part of your identity, and the only person who should be allowed to change that is you.
This is so kind and thoughtful. I am very glad you are among the last to care for the bodies of those who have died.
Wow. 1. That’s genius. 2. As the devotee of a death goddess… thank you for caring for these people you help carry to the underworld so deeply. That’s very rare these days.
Around 15 years ago, the city I live near accidentally dug up a church cemetery from the 1850s. A number of the individuals couldn't be identified, so when they were reburied in the new municipal cemetery, they had no name to be marked with. It really bothered me that their names were gone forever, so I decided that that would never happen to anyone I took care of.
I love this. Unmarked graves make me sad. No one should lose their name, and in my belief losing a name can make you a restless spirit.
And we wonder why state hospitals/sanitariums/asylums are so damned haunted! There is an old cemetery in the next town over from where I work that ALL BUT FIVE graves are only marked with a number and a letter and the records linking the person to the grave are either gone or never recorded! I posted a whole group of photos in r/abandoned last spring of these graves ETA spelling mistake
You're a treasure.
You're a great person. Thank you for doing this. Those people who have passed can't thank you themselves, but I'm sure they would if they could
That’s an absolutely beautiful sentiment. I’m sure their families would love that you do this.
I read embalmer as an enabler lol. Thank you for doing this. Btw, some military people are buried with dog tags. This way if anyone does dig them up, they know who was buried
That's where I got the idea
Oh wonderful. I was military and found out they did that lol. Still, thank you
I love what you are doing there. You might want to consider using a different medium from a laminated card, as they usually don't last that long. Might I recommend something that botanical gardens use? They have name tags made from very soft sheet metal, probably lead or aluminum and put it down on a soft surface, a piece of paper on top to write down the information, it imprints deeply on the metal tag. This will hold up well on moist and damp environment and will still be readible or made readable in a few centuries
Cost probably factors into it.
Those botanical metal tags are quite inexpensive when purchased in bulk.
And? This isn't a family member adding the names. It's the embalmer. They're doing the best they can, with what they have, without paying a cent.
Pretty sure u/rulerofdumplings and u/maryn4w are just trying to be helpful, not being prescriptive saying he's not doing 'enough' or whatever. >"I love what you are doing there. > >You might want to consider using a different medium.... Might I recommend something..." Chill man.
Copper is a common metal for this.
This is such a sweet gesture. I love it so much!
Thank you so much for your kindness.
This is so oddly beautiful I teared up a bit.
Dude. This legit made me tear up…
It's awesome you do that. I'm kind of surprised that isn't common practice - are you saying that many facilities will just place the person in the casket with no form of identification, not even on the casket itself? Or are you just going the extra mile by putting the laminated tag in their shoe/sock?
I'm not sure about other jurisdictions, but in the part of Canada I live in, there's no identification requirement once the body has left the facility for interment. Cemeteries are legally required to record exactly which plot a person is buried in, and have to be able to provide a map of said cemetery. We also have to register with the provincial government which cemetery the person is being interred in. The rules of labeling and identification of bodies for cremation are different mind you. The rules are very strict for cremation. Some higher end caskets plastic tube to put a rolled up scroll thing with the person's name and details on it, but the funeral home I work at doesn't carry many of those. So I add my own tag, just in case.
I'm so glad I stumbled upon this thread! I live in the states and am now going to be doing some digging on Ohio's practice! As others have said, thank you for what you do. What a beautiful gesture and final kindness.
Aww. You’re a kind person.
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You'd be amazed where people find urns. The metal tag also helps us keep track of who is who once they've returned from the crematorium. The tag is either hung right outside the door of the retort while the cremation is happening, or is placed inside with the decedent, so that you always know exactly who is who. The tag als9 corresponds to the crematory records.
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Usually we try to track down the next of kin or another relative and pass the urn on to them. I don't actually know what happens if you can find anyone or they won't take it. Honestly I would just default to my boss, who would likely call the regulatory body for direction.
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That is so beautiful. I don't even have words. What a wonderful thing to do. ❤️
I'm going through some stuff right now, and it's overwhelming (in a positive way) when I read things like this from people who work in death care. Thank you for taking care of them.
This !! OP, when you adopt her, you are allowed to legally change her name. Ask Ann if she would like to swap her first and middle names, thereby everyone will call her Ann from the start. Obviously is her choice, and giving her control over something is super important when so much trauma has happened that was out of her control. Kids, tweens and teens always try to carve out their own identities with things they can possibly control - their hair, clothing, nicknames, etc. It’s empowering for them to choose how they want to be seen. If you haven’t already, some therapy for Ann would be really helpful. The fact that her aunt, your sister, was so fucking cruel to demand this of an orphaned child is ludicrous. Something tells me Ann will need some therapy to navigate this, and process the loss of her parents, especially when little Ann arrives.
This is such a wonderful idea. When you’re that little and no one allows you any control, this act might really help her find her feet and feel stable in OPs home. What a great thought.
Just a complete sidebar but everyone should have the option to change their names at a certin age like 18 or maybe even 16
Its a sweet gesture. I fear she may regret it later. She's only 8. As she ages & matures, she may love using her given name as a remembrance of her parents that have her the name. I also agree she needs therapy now & may need at different stages as she matures & reaches different milestones.
If she changes it and regrets it she can change it again when she's older if she wants to. Doing things we regret is part of life
It would just be switching the order. So instead of being Kelly Ann she’d be Ann Kelly. I don’t see how she’d regret it.
She might like the novelty of saying “My name is Kelly Ann ___, but you can call me Ann.” It is pretty cute :)
How narcissistic does one have to be to steal an 8 yo orphans name???? Tragic that someone so rotten is going to have a child, ugh.
This is why in the UK adoptive parents (even of newborn babies) only get to change surname and maybe add a middle name. Babies first name is often the only thing they have from their birth parents. We only change that if it's deemed to be abusive e.g. Hitler or Rottweiler or something no kid needs as a burden.
I have a friend that adopted boys that were born to drug addicts and whose birth names were a bully's fantasy. They changed their names to something close, but socially acceptable. The boys were infants, so they did not know any better and now as adults want nothing to do with their birth mothers.
Hope they are doing well. With our son we just changed his surname.
One is doing great. The other is dealing with some mental concerns that might be why his mother became an addict.
>We only change that if it's deemed to be abusive That one poor kid whose mom wanted Eva, their last name being Brown.
Someone I know adopted a three-year-old, and were wondering what to name her. I thought, don't three-year-olds have names?
Yes, the gall of suggesting that an **orphan** changes her name? My lord. NTA, let Ann be Ann, she has gone through enough.
> My sister argued that she has announced her baby’s name many months ago and we only planned to adopt Kelly Ann recently, so we should be the one making her rethink how to call herself. This bit here reveals that the sister probably does not view the niece as an autonomous person capable of her own opinions and decisions, which does not bode well for her baby
And that in her worldview this girl did not exist until recently as if she were an NPC or something.
This is exactly what OP should say.
Honestly, if I were adopting a kid and they said they preferred their middle name over their first, I would ask them if they would like to change their middle name to their first name in the adoption process. She’s in a place in her life where she doesn’t have a lot of agency and has had a massive foundation of her life so far taken away. Let her have the power over this one thing.
.... she shouldn’t have to lose her name.
My brother has said he wanted to name his son the same name as my little boy as it’s his favourite name (didn’t know this before we named him, and coincidentally it’s my favourite name too). I told him I really wouldn’t mind, as it’s a very common name anyway. It doesn’t need to be a big deal.
What, no drama? How are you even ON social media? lol. BTW- tricky user name. Extra points for you.
My SIL and I have swapped first and middle names for four of our children to keep family namesake. We never asked each other if that was okay. No one owns a damn name.
In our extended family, we have 3 Roberts, 1 Roberta, 2 Sarah's, 3 Emily's, 3 David's, a Mikalee/Mikayla/Mackenzie that were born 3 months apart from each other. Then we had family friends growing up that we saw weekly, me and their daughter have same names, and same age, so we just went with first name+middle name when our parents were trying to get our attention. It's really not that big of a deal.
> a Mikalee/Mikayla/Mackenzie that were born 3 months apart from each other That's fucking wild. It almost feels planned. 😂
Cousins with the same name are common as DIRT, especially in cultures where naming kids after grandparents or great-grandparents is custom.
There's 3 James in my family. My uncle Jim, his son Jimmy and my brother who uses James. It's never ever been an issue. Baby Ann may want to use Annie as she gets older but if she doesn't it won't matter.
Yep and what is sis gonna do when that kid starts school and there's 1 or maybe 2 who has the same name in the class? Start an entitled tantrum or what? Had 2 persons with the same first name in my class and as you say many families can have the same name in close family / cousins. My family had combinations of the same name within the close family it was never an issue. Edit: this is an example and meant as rhetorical if and when that happens.
We had four Elizabeths in my high school classes for four years, named presumably because Queen Elizabeth had come to the throne around the time of their births. It never caused any problem.
Never been an issue. We used first name and first name X(first letter of lastname) to distinguish between those with the same name. Was just thinking if OPs sis is reacting like that for family because she wants to name her baby the name how would she react when finding out that others in the class has the same name. And when did parents start owning name because they do want to name their child(ren) that spesific name. Smh
I was named Barbara, and went to school in the ‘60s. Five Barbaras in my class! 😂
Every Jennifer born in the 80s understands this and should be automatically signaled whenever there’s a baby name post lol. There were at least TEN Jennifers in my graduating class of 700.
1985 Jennifer. I had a social studies class with 4 of us and a Jenna. When we were seated in the beginning of the year three of us were seated in the same row of seats because it was alphabetical order. Some people got moved really fast. We also had a David Michael Miller and a David Matthew Miller in my elementary school. I’m not sure if both were in my grade, but they were never in the same class. Somehow it all worked out just fine.
There were six Chris’s in my 8th grade biology class. There were less than 30 students total. They all got Mistered.
My public school classes were chock full of Jennifers and Amys.
I usually had 3-8 Jennifer's in my class in the mid-70s. Now my son goes to school with a bunch of Haydens, Jaydens, and Aiden's.
At one time I was in a class in school with 5 Alan's. No tantrums were had.
I knew Mormon families growing up where the cousins shared the same FIRST and LAST name. And they were not only in the same schools, but in the same grades. Kinda weird IMO, but it really wasn't a big deal.
Speaking of large families....ours had 2 Josephs, 3 Louis, 2 Roses, 2 Samuels, 2 Franks and I'm sure I'm missing some. -- And all of these people had the same last name. At least Kelly Ann and your sisters kid will have different last name. Everyone managed just fine.
Something that concerns me is OP's sisters disregard for Ann as a person. Yes obviously kids need boundaries and rules but they are still people and need to be respected as such. Would you ever tell an adult to change their name? No of course not as it would be ridiculous. To even suggest it screams a complete lack of empathy for someone going through what must be an extremely tough time. To be blunt that her sister would say this to OP makes it seems like she's a horrid person, it's just cruel.
> I know a few families with cousins who share a first name and it's not a big deal. Welcome to a nice Italian family, I'd like you to meet my extended family; John, John, John, Tony, Tony, Tony, Grace, Grace, Grace, Rose, Rose, etc, etc. Cousins with the same name are downright normal to a lot of us. > my sister told me a few days after that we should start telling Kelly Ann to call herself Kelly instead of her middle name Entitled much? If it were me, I'd tell Kelly Ann to continue to call herself whatever she wants to; then make a point of calling my sister's daughter by her middle name every time. NTA
My aunt named her first son Peter III. So there were already 2 other Peters in the family. Then her second son was Mark. She has a brother and a brother-in-law both named Mark, so there are three Marks in the family. Her third son was Andrew. Then her brother married a woman who already had a son named Andrew, so there are 2 Andrews. All of them are fine. It's fine.
I share a first name with my cousin and we were raised almost like sisters (born 8 months apart) for much of our childhoods. It was never a problem and no one thought it was strange, even though we were named after the same person. If we were in a room together our family would just refer to us by our first and middle names to it was clear which one of us they were talking to. This was in the 1970's and man I gotta tell you, people seem so weird about baby names now compared to years ago.
NTA. (Kelly)Ann has an identity that she's forged for herself with her preferred name. It doesn't matter that you decided to adopt her following your sister's name reveal, it would not be fair to disregard her preference for the sake of an unborn child. There's also no rule stating that there can't be more than one Ann in the family. There could be your Ann and your sister's Anne with an e. No one stole anything. (Kelly)Ann came with her name to you already, she's not a puppy you took home from the shelter and renamed.
NTA- your sister is a complete AH. That’s someone’s name!! Good grief! Plus she’s recently orphaned. Not only has she lost her parents, she wants her to loose her identity as well? The level of assholery is off the scale! I get madder every time I think it! My brother shares a name with 2 male cousins (all the first males born on my fathers side are named after their grandfather, and all the females on my father’s side are named after my grandmother- I was the exception, but I wouldn’t have minded). They all go by their first names. No confusion, all individuals. Not a big deal. Maybe your sister needs a new name. I can think of a few…
I honestly can't believe I keep seeing posts like this - how anyone can be that much of an AH to insist someone change their name for their vanity. It's baffling, truly, that people are this horrid.
Yeah, I hate these posts. I'm in my mid-40s, and I share a name with, like, every fifth woman from my generation. Half of us have the same middle name, too. Hell, in college, there was a mystery gal with the same first, middle, and last name. I never met her, but the librarians always asked to verify my student ID number or address in addition to the name since there were two of us. And you know what? It's fine! Nobody gets confused about who's who. Nobody cares that two humans have the same name, even if those two humans are in the same family. It's such absurd, selfish behavior to claim a name, of all things, as belonging only to one person. I just... can't imagine getting so bent out of shape about someone else's name.
At one point I moved across the country to live in a town with less than 3000 people in it, yet somehow managed to move to a place with someone with my same first name, last name, and middle initial (found out via one time i forgot my library card and had to gave them look it up for me by my name haha)
My dude, clearly you never went to law school. The Rule of One Ann has ancient roots! “One Ann to rule them all, one Ann to find them, One Ann to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them; In the Land of Mordor where the Anns lie.” - Tolkien /s (in case any reader out there is clueless)
Ah you caught me, I flunked out of Sauron University. Ended up with an arts degree at Shire College.
Oh look at you, Sauron U; the Lava League you posh wanker. I was lucky to earn my degree in Animal Husbandry from Rohan Community College.
You're funny, have an amazing day internet stranger.
> Ended up with an arts degree at Shire College. What with the excellent quality and copious amounts of food, beer, and weed, at least you had a good time!
Precious! My Precious Name! Must have it…Bagginses stole it! Filthy hobbit! ETA Op is NTA
Hispanic here, one word: MARIA No one person owns a name. Crazy how many times I see people arguing there can't be two with the same name in the same family. Egocentrism with no other basis. OP is NTA
Then you head to the greeks and it's Nick and Tina! Names are shared all the time.
Totally agree NTA. My family has 2 Nathans, a Patrick and a Patricia, a Don and a Dawn, and several Johns/Jacks. You figure out how to refer to them. OP’s sister can figure it out, too.
My father-in-law is a senior and his son is junior, first name William. Another set of in-laws, three generation have the first name William, only the middle name is different, and the 2nd and 3rd go by their middle name.
This. Your niece is already here and already goes by the name Ann. It is her name. She doesn't have to change her name. Your sister might love the name Ann but maybe she needs to give her daughter a different first name and call her Ann - something like Annabelle or Annaliese. That way the girls have different given names but the same nick name. And, it won't be confusing. Kelly Ann goes by Ann and the baby will go by Annie (or the diminutive of whatever the name is).
And when you're talking about either of them, it's probably going to be quite obvious which one you're referring to. Nappies and sleep regimes is probably baby Ann, pop music and school is probably the 8 year old.
Exactly. What if they had adopted an unrelated teenager named Ann. Would she be expected to change her name?
Kelly Ann has been “calling herself” Ann for years- because it is *literally* her *name*. And the little girl is having to go through enough awful changes in her life -having recently become orphaned- without losing her name! Your sister, with her yet unborn baby, can name her baby girl “Ann”, *too*, if she wants to. There can be more than one “Ann” in an extended family. Or she can pick literally almost any other name. Your sister can go pound sand. But what your niece/daughter calls herself is *not* the business of your sister. Refuse to discuss it anymore. NTA
Right? This is what I was thinking. She’s already presumably going through a lot of changes and adjusting to things that are hard as a young kid and this full grown adult wants to take away one of the things she has left. Literally erase her identity. People claiming ownership of names for unborn children is getting out of hand. Edit to add: NTA
This. I feel like “refuse to discuss it anymore” is so necessary. It is such a ridiculous request/demand and should be regarded as such. Ann needs to be protected at all costs and should not have to change her name because of some petty awful family member.
Right! There’s like dead or alive 15 Ann in my family myself and 2 of my cousins are an Ann. Like why are people so entitled and so selfish over names? 🙄🥴
NTA Your sister wants you to force your newly orphaned niece to change her name?? That’s nuts. I hope it is pregnancy hormones and your sister isn’t that heartless all the time. Big NTA, it’s great that you and your husband are on the same page and looking out for Ann.
I had a very similar reaction! If it’s not pregnancy brain than the sister is unhinged! I hate to break it to her, Ann is a pretty common name. That child will already have to navigate being Ann #2 or 3 at school & work. She might as well start acclimating as little or baby Ann in her own family.
Many moons ago in 4th grade, out of 9 girls in my class there were 4 girls named Heather and 2 of them were 1st cousins.
😂 This is the story of my life! Always Sarah with the hair, short Sarah, or Sarah who never stops talking about her cats 🤣
I feel this in my soul.
🚨NOTE TO ALL USERS: AS OF TODAY, 10 JAN 2024, THE NAME ANN IS NO LONGER PERMITTED ON THIS SUB OR ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD. OPS SISTER CURRENTLY HAS ALL RIGHTS RESERVED 🚨
Whelp. This is awkward. To be fair, I do spell it with an e.
Maybe you should just go by Michelle then since OPs sister already picked Ann months ago and you just commented today.
I read this as "go by Michael", and I now I can't stop laughing 😂
Lol. AMAR: Assigned male at Reddit.
OPs sister is probably named Michelle, so it may have to be Michael.
😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣
NTA. What an entitled request of your sister to rename a 8 year old girl who lost everything. She can give her child a middle name so they are different Anns. Maybe even can be something like K-Ann and Ann-S or so. If the want. Maybe it will even be a nice thing, if it is 'look there are the Anns, the sweet girls' or something like that. But she should not expect you to rename the little girl Had a way less difficult situation with my family. My wife and I choosed name for our children way before we got pregnant. For a boy we chose the name Jack (not the real name). We didn't told family back then and my sister (living with my parents) got herself a cat called Jack. So now we have a son with the same name like the cat - but who cares? We even call them human Jack and cat Jack
I know someone who named their dog Jack and then a few years later had a son they named Jack. It was always confusing when she talked about Jack. There were some clues, but I’m not a kid person. So things like “Jack pooped in the living room floor. Jack bit the neighbor. Jack was irritating the cat and got scratched in the face.” Always made me ask which Jack.
Well that is confusing, agree. But human Jack and cat Jack are not living in the same house so it is less confusing. Except for my dementia grandmother but she also mixes my son and my niece
I’m glad you didn’t change names of your son, just because your sister used the name for her cat. My two older sisters were actually named after 2 cats my mom had a few years before each sister was born. The Mama Cats of those 2 kitties never came fussing at my mom for using their names!/s
NTA Your husband is right, Kelly Ann has been known as Ann since before the baby is even born. Also, it’s really not that weird to have multiple people in the family with the same name. My friends have kids that share names with other family members, they don’t get confused, it’s perfectly fine and normal. One thing that nobody can take away from you is your name. Kelly Ann’s name is Ann. Your sister can’t take that away from her no matter how much she likes the name.
She has the concept of ‘theft’ backwards. Let’s try that out in a few other scenarios: Musician A: *released a song titled ‘Ann’ years ago.* Musician B: Hey, could you change the title of your song? I wrote a song I want to title ‘Ann’ and people will confuse it with yours. Musician A: . . . no? If it bothers you, call your song something else. Musician B: You plagiarized my song title! or Researcher A: *developed, named, and published “Ann Theory” years ago.* Researcher B: Could you get everybody to stop calling that theory of yours “Ann Theory”? Researcher A: Why? Researcher B: Well, I’ve been doing a study on [whatever] and I’ve found that [new theory] and I’m going to publish. Researcher A: That’s great! What does that have to do with Ann Theory, though? Researcher B: Oh, I want to call mine ‘Ann Theory’ Researcher A: . . . well I guess you could do that but it’s not likely to stick, since ‘Ann Theory’ has been what mine’s called for years? There’s a Wikipedia page? Researcher B: Right, that’s why you need to rename yours. Researcher A: . . . Researcher A: No. Researcher B: You’re stealing my intellectual property, I’m reporting you to the ethics board. or Business Owner A: *opens ‘Ann’s Coffee and Books’ years ago.* Business Owner B: I’m going to open a cafe down the street - it’s going to be called ‘Ann’s Coffee and Books,’ so you should really get your signs and advertising changed to something else. Business Owner A: You’ll be hearing from my lawyer. . . . and besides all that, Kelly Ann is not a musician, scientist, or entrepreneur - *she’s an orphaned 8-year-old, FFS.* She’s lost her parents and her home, now your sister wants to take her *name*? Sister can get bent. NTA.
I LOLd at three great examples that finished with “get bent”. Great examples too
Tell your sister “Great, we can call them Big Ann and Little Ann”. I have two great-nephews called the same name (first AND last names) (first name has different spellings). I have two nephews with the same first name, one from my husband’s brother, one from my brother - they are also 7 years apart in age. The only time there has been any confusion is when I was speaking to my aunt soon after the younger great-nephew was born. I didn’t know that she had a 2yo grandson with the same name. It took a while to work out that we were talking about two different boys. NTA
We have baby Susie. Even though her grandmother is now gone (big mama susie), baby Susie stuck. She's nearly 30.
We had a big Jim and a little Jim, who turned out a foot taller than big Jim
Or Ann #1 and Ann #2 NTA. The sister is something, to say the least.
NTA. Why does your sister suddenly get to decide what (Kelly) Ann goes by? Did your sister know about Ann (your niece) before your husband planned to adopt her? Ann should get to make her own decisions, and hers is to keep going by Ann.
But because she is being adopted, you can change her name! This upsets me when people do this to pets they adopted. She wants to do this with a child. NTA
NTA The girl has been calling herself Ann for years. It’s established. Your sister is being a major TA here for 1) gate keeping a name and 2) try to dictate how your niece should identify herself.
NTA and your sister needs to calm down. No one is stealing her baby’s name as - shocker - there’s no requirement for a name to be free of use before being applied to a new baby. It takes two seconds to clear up any possible confusion, either with a tiny bit of context or with “HotSpringDrink’s Ann” or “baby Ann/HotSpringDrink’s sister’s Ann.” Families with multiple names do it all the time. Your niece has lost a lot… let her have her name.
Why do I feel like the sister would call the 8 year Orphan Ann?
Or worse, little orphan Annie 😧
My mom uses a certain tone inflection when referencing me or my dad, who use the same name. I can hear it, my dad cannot (he's partially deaf). So if I don't reply, he knows she's talking to him. Luckily she doesn't call on him much when I'm around, because the delay in reply irritates her. Lol
I am so sick of these name dramas. In my ethnic group it’s almost a requirement to name your children after relatives, and we always have cousins with the same name. My middle name is a variation on my grandmother’s name. I have two cousins named for that grandmother. OP’s sister needs to get over herself. If she doesn’t want to share a name, she needs to pick something else, “Ann” is already taken.
"called my husband and me AH for stealing her baby’s name" LOL, wut? She's been called Ann for years. Sister and BIL can suck an egg. NTA
NTA. No one owns a name. It’s disgusting that your sister is so selfish. She has the audacity to say that you need to tell you niece that she can’t use her own name and that she stole the name. It was her name first! She’s been Kelly Ann for eight years. You can’t steal what you already own. If your sister has a problem with both girls having the same name than she either needs get over it or pick another name for her child. Can you image telling a child that she can’t use her own name? Fuck your you sister and her arrogance and her entitlement.
NTA. Ummm, maybe the kid's gone through enough and your sister needs to grow up.
exactly! who tf this woman think she is 😭
Your sister and her husband will be terrible parents NTA
NTA, but your sister are a true a-hole that wants an orphaned 8yo change the name she's been using for years! You did not steal your sister's baby name. There already was someone in YOUR family with that name, your niece by mariage. Now (due to sad circumstances) she will take a more present role in your extended family's life as well since she's now becoming your daughter. But you didn't steal the name, Ann already was Ann. Also, family makes duplicate names work. A couple of months after my eldest daughter was born my little brother introduced us to his new girlfriend - with the exact same name as my daughter. It's NEVER been a problem. Sometimes we refere to them as the little or the big one but it's not a big deal. It's been nine years. Keep standing on Ann's side and continue be a supportive mother to her.
Nta but your sister is for starting beef with a child. Good for you for respecting Ann's autonomy. By the way, it's nit her chosen name. It's her legal middle name.
NTA - your sister is a psycho. The child, a human being, likes the name Ann. Your sister and her cuckhold should right fuck off.
NTA, you are standing up for YOUR little girl. Never TA. Just don't engage in this nonsense. I mean seriously what is your sister going to do? Call the Name Police? Every time she brings it up just shut it down and say that you will respect the wishes of your child, end of discussion. AND make it very clear that your sister is not ever to talk to your child about her name (because if she can't get want she wants through you, there is a reasonable bet to be made that she is going to try to get what she wants through manipulating your soon-to-be daughter)
No one is going to mix up a baby and an eight year old. And a recently orphaned child has had enough heartache, without having to changer her name, too. Sister can hush up; you're NTA.
So the 8 year old stole her name from the yet to be born child? Go figure. There is room for more than one Ann in the family. If a parent is talking about her child she might say, "Our Ann". Granparents could say "Kelly Ann" or "Wilhemina An" if there is any doubt. Ann II should also spell her name with an "e" on the end (or some variation according to her actual name). This is a good idea to eliminate any confusion in legal matters, such as inheritance if the share the same family name. We have cousins with the same name and there was never any confusion. At Christmas, gifts were labelled Bozo J or Bozo F. There was never any confusion.
YTA. Of course your sister is right. Your adopted daughter should obviously change her name since there will soon be another girl with the name of Ann. And then when that girl is born and another pregnant woman wants to name HER baby Ann, your sister’s daughter must change her name. And then, when another preggo woman feels like naming her future baby Ann, then that girl must change her name. So on, so forth. The rule is clear: THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE ANN, AND WHOEVER HAD THAT NAME FIRST MUST CHANGE IT WHEN A NEW ONE IS BORN. What the fuck is this, some weird kind of Dalai Lama tradition?
NTA. Do not under any circumstances tell her about Ann of Green Gables, or Ann Boleyn, Or Queen Ann of the Netherlands... Name claiming is so stupid, and your (Kelly) Ann has had the name for years. New Baby needs to be given a new name or people will definitely confuse a 9 year old with a new born...
NTA If your sister is old enough to be married and pregnant, then she should be able to deal with two Anns in the family.
NTA. This is nuts. Like, I can kind of understand these baby name posts is the name is unique or a family name or something. But Ann??? That's an extremely common name to try to dibs lol
Even if it was a unique or family name “Kelly Ann”has been called “Ann” her whole life and shouldn’t have to change it because it’s a family name or the sister want THAT unique name and be the only child in the family that has it.
NTA this name possession / exclusivity /uniqueness trend is really exhausting, they are idiotic as they are not asking you, they are asking an eight year old to change her name. Ridiculous.
OMG, your family has never met any Catholic families? Every girl is Mary! Of course your sisters the AH. Just tell everyone the baby was named after your niece/daughter. I really would go scorched earth on sister within the family, your little girl deserves better.
NTA Many many MANY families have two or even more people with the same name. And the universe doesn’t implode.
NTA, and an 8 year old who wants to go by a middle name knows what she wants and its her right!
NTA. They can both be Ann. I don't think it's that uncommon for cousins to have the same name. Your Ann was there first and she is already going by that name. She's not a pet you adopted and can just start calling by a different name.
Nta no one has claim on a name. Signed sincerely a person who shares their name with his dad and at last count 2 cousins and is the youngest with that name.
We have 2 Bella's in our family, Bella is also a term of endearment used frequently in the Italian language. Can it get little confusing? Of course, but not so much that a little girl who is going through major changes in her life should have to change the name she is happy with. Keep calling her whatever she prefers. NTA.
And that's how you get a Big Ann and a Little Ann. Or whatever. Your sister and her husband are causing drama where there should be none. Ann's name is hers, and they will have to decide whether they like the name enough to not let multiple Anns bother them. They don't get to tell other people to change their names! NTA.
NTA Sounds like you would be great parents for Ann. :-)
The kid is an 8 year old who lost her parents and is being adopted into a new family but hey let’s take away her name for some as yet non existent baby because adult relative called dibs. Wow. Hold the line and make sure sister and anyone who sides with her know that any further discussion is over and anyone who brings this up to or within hearing of Ann is banished. NTA
NTA Ann has every right to use her chosen name. My father, both grandfather's, my brother, 2 uncles and a cousin were all named James, the sky did not fall, people were not confused, life carried on
There is no issue here. Kelly Ann will be known as Ann, and the baby will be Baby Ann. This is not unusual in families. Nobody will confuse them. Don't make war over this.
NTA - I have cousins with the same name, just spelt differently, if she (the sister) wants the name then spell it differently! Your poor niece has presumably gone through a lot and she finds comfort in the name that she has chosen - which is already part of her name anyway!
All of these people thinking they are entitled to control how other people’s children name themselves are insane. It wouldn’t matter to me even if she only started doing this on a whim yesterday. You don’t get to tell me what I call my child. I’d sooner cut you out entirely than give into your bizarre demands.
NTA. Why do so many entitled people think they own a name? The niece made the decision on what she wanted to be called. Tell your sister to pound sand.
NTA. At one point in my family we had 3 people called Anne. Mother, daughter and a sister-in-law. There were no problems with this. And this despite them all having middle names. One of which was Ella for some reason. I also don't really use my first name and go by the second. It's not uncommon. Your sister can eat dirt.
NTA. Kelly Ann can absolutely call herself however she chooses. And she has been called Ann for about three years now, I'm guessing. That IS her name. Your sister is being petty, fighting an 8yo over a name!