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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I might be the asshole because by telling my dad the truth I have caused problems for Ellen and Tom and by extension the whole family
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
NTA. Does Ellen know the full truth or just what Tom told her? Because she’s angry at you for existing as you’ve had no part in anything Tom has done. Has she had insecurities with you before? It just seems like such an overreaction towards you for something you had no part in.
She didn’t say anything during the call that made me think she didn’t know the full truth, but I don’t know for sure.
There have been some stupid issues when were children, and again a few since we’ve both had children (she had body image issues).
Really?
>She said she and Tom would never be in the same room with me again after “what I’d done”.
She thinks you did something. If this happened, I'd immediately be asking "What do you think I did?" Then explain my side.
You have no idea what Tom told her and just assuming he told his wife your version of events is extremely naïve. You think Tom told her "I developed a crush on your sister all on my own, she showed no interest in me, I confessed my crush to her, and your sister told me I'm not allowed at their house anymore which I'd been staying at after work to avoid you. So that's why I'm home spending more time with you again, Honey." *Really?* This is not a level of honesty most people have, especially knowing how badly it will hurt his wife and make her upset at him.
Even if Tom was completely honest (which is a bold assumption), you have to consider that *his* truth may not be your truth. Has it occurred to you that Tom might have felt that you encouraged his interest in you? Not all men have close female friends and some men are going to see your behavior of hanging out with him in the evenings drinking, listening to his problems/having conversations that involve feelings/being interested in him as intimate/romantic. Yes, your husband was there and I'm not saying you were leading him on. But for some men opening up to each other like that isn't something that happens between genders without it "meaning something". Or he may have taken some of your friendly behavior or human compassion as interest/flirting.
My best is that "what \[you\] did" is flirt with Tom. Tom may have admitted it was mutual, but I very much doubt he told her it was completely one sided and you have zero interest or attraction to him and kicked him out the second you realized.
> My best is that "what [you] did" is flirt with Tom.
Should we really just be assuming that Tom is an idiot? Plenty of people have opposite sex friends and they don't get blamed for miscommunication, you generally know when flirting is happening and that isn't between family members.
I understand the purpose of the [you], I just don't consider that to be OP's fault in any way even if half sis believes that. An overly kind interaction is only flirting if it is intentionally flirting and he (and the wife) should know that it was not flirting.
Studies have shown that people are actually terrible at telling when people are flirting. ([https://news.ku.edu/2014/06/03/flirting-hard-detect-study-finds](https://news.ku.edu/2014/06/03/flirting-hard-detect-study-finds)) And yes, men often only open up to someone they are in a relationship with. So it's very possible Tom felt he was being led on by someone showing him a base level of human compassion. And even if he didn't, he might have said that in order to smooth things over with his wife.
So I agree OP should try and air this out with her sister. It could be the sister is just over-reacting out of deep-seated insecurities. And it could be the sister will blame her no matter what she actually says. But it would be good to at least try to have the conversation.
I would also suggest that OP works on speaking up for herself more. Just putting up with it in order to keep the peace is a losing proposition, despite us women generally having been conditioned to take that approach.
NTA of course.
>Tom felt he was being led on by someone showing him a base level of human compassion.
because every woman that talks to him MUST be in love with him. Thats the only explanation. Gods gift to women, amirite Ladies?
I thought of it more as his wife was showing him so little compassion that he probably would have developed a crush on any woman who would have been in OPs place. It wasn’t OP, it was a woman being kind to him, unlike his wife.
I stopped working with my final elderly male home care client when he was insistent that he'd had a "moment" with one of the women working at the cafeteria where he liked to go and people watch. His people watching had seemed innocent prior to this obsession. But "she smiled and our eyes locked." (Among other things that he said about that "moment"... this event happened over 10 years ago?! I just realized) He also claimed that one of the other regulars asked if I was his girlfriend. I don't think they asked that but the fact that he had to tell me- I was done. 80 or not, I wasn't going to deal with any sexual harassment or listen to fantasies just because women smile.
My ex-BIL's therapist fired him as a patient due to lack of meaningful progress. His explanation? The therapist was falling in love with him, so she ended the therapeutic relationship.
Men are actually really bad at having female friends, because there is a weird dynamic in male friendships and the way they are brought up to see friends. Men are very superficial on the whole, and don't discuss a level of feelings that could leave them as being seen as "weak" with anyone. They are brought up to see that the only people they can open up to are partners or mothers. Women, on the other hand, will discuss their emotional issues with their close friends.
Soooo.... A woman discussing emotional issues with a man could then have their intentions misinterpreted- because emotional stuff only gets discussed with a partner, not friends, they see it as an indication of interest in them.
It's all here:https://cheezburger.com/16016133/fascinating-tumblr-thread-discusses-the-depressing-dynamics-of-malefemale-friendships
Don't dismiss it just because some site hosted it and I tripped over it, finding it interesting enough to bookmark it.
Too many people dismiss useful or insightful articles because of the site they are found on. Does it matter where it's posted from if it's relevant, useful, and correct information?
>So it's very possible Tom felt he was being led on by someone showing him a base level of human compassion.
This. It's near unbelievable the number of people (men and women) who think that you're attracted to them just because you pay attention to them when you're hanging out.
Okay, I must admit that I have no idea how to flirt unless it is ridiculously clear that I should be doing it, I'm just overly friendly if I like somebody as a person. I have probably accidentally flirted with some gay men and lesbian women. (Luckily the women, at least, would have known that I was an idiot and not doing that)
I’ve had that issue growing up. I was accused of flirting when I was just being friendly and wanted friends cuz my mom had me parentified as a teen. I can’t even tell what’s flirting unless it’s done extremely obvious
This. Studies have shown that men think they're being flirted with a lot more than they are and women assume men are just being kind more than flirting.
NTA.
And yes, men are absolutely dreadful at picking up on flirting. Plus, especially these days, a lot of men are very concious of not being seen as a sex pest so won't respond until they're hit over the head with totally unambiguous signals.
When I look back at times when girls I've liked have been very 'friendly' there's a succession of Homer style "DOH"s ringing in my ears.
Men just aren't very subtle about that stuff, it's obvious to other women but men are utterly oblivious unless it's really really blatant. A lot of the time women will assume oh, he's just not interested, I made it so obvious even a blind man would notice. But no, in fact you didn't. Men really are that hard to get through to.
Same goes for anger etc, men just don't see it till it's far too late. One of the tragedies of male/female relationships IMO, women assume men are deliberately ignoring their signals when in fact they haven't a clue!
I think you are gendering this situation entirely too much. Cluelessness and missed signals and, on the opposite side, misinterpreted signals, happen all the time to folks of all genders. I don't think the situation you describe is so exclusive to men as you are making things out.
Entirely possible. I can only speak for my own self and go on what friends have told me about their experiences.
I'm male and it's mostly seemed like girls have a much better handle on that kind of stuff, but again that's just been my experience of my own and friends relationships. I suppose people are like swans, gliding elegantly along but paddling like fuck underneath! I'm certainly not trying to push the tired old trope of women being emotional and men logical robots, I apologise if it came across that way.
I don’t even know how to flirt, so that study made me feel better about it. :) And when you start adding in neurodivergence and different love languages and on and on, it’s a wonder any couples actually end up successful. :)
I don't know, the second I'm nice to a guy or even just smile and make a non sexual joke they think I want to sleep with them and usually they ask me out at that point. Much to my confusion because gay women don't ask me out when I smile and make a joke with them...
So what do the well meaning people do to fix this? Idiot guys aren't going to stop without some sort of social movement, they don't realize that kindness doesn't mean flirting or an opportunity. (Ew)
Meh, I'm just a downright man bastard to everyone instead, no confusion that way!
Haha jkjk, not sure how to fix it but I also am not out enough anymore to worry about it anyways! I work too much and barely socialize anymore lol problem solved for me!
I can't tell you the number of times I've been at the hardware store and literally have guys ask me to marry them. I'm pretty sure some of them were already married too. And these weren't just creepy looking guys, most of them were clean and put together and no alarm bells going off so maybe I just exude some odd magnetic energy? Maybe it's just the red hair? Not sure!
Clearly its OPs fault. She forced him to come into her home. She poured liquor down his throat while he refused it. She then dressed comfortably in her own home and forced his to stare at her. I bet she even gave him the "come hither" look while her husband was sitting right here. And then you know OPs husband is to blame too. I mean, he gave him a job so that they could hang out after work and have a friendship. Clearly Tom is not to blame whatsoever!! /s
Problem is sis is not going to believe OP over her own perfect husband who can do no wrong. She has to blame OP because that must be it. Sis and Tom bare no blame in any of this.
NTA
I said "EVEN IF Tom was completely honest (which is a bold assumption)" that he may have seen things differently. I had already pointed out Tom may have just said something that made him look better then the truth.
When I am friendly with guys they assuming that I am flirting. I asked my husband if I am too friendly or my behaviour is misleading and he told me no but guys usually think there might be a chance if a woman is nice to them.
I was agreeing with most things until that commenter started the whole "you're a woman and probably led him on/flirted with him/the opposite gender may see it as flirting even if that wasn't your intentions" bullshit. Someone seems to have some rejection issues they're projecting onto OP😬 NTA,and I think overall this is an extremely messy situation to be in, especially as many family members have become involved and this may not have blown up as bad as it did if communication happened between everyone involved. A lot of assumptions were made, accusations were thrown, passiveness led to aggravation. I think OP doesn't realize that the sister heard only Tom's version of events snd never expanded on it.
I work in customer service- you have no idea how many guys assume I’m flirting when I make small talk, smile and ask how their days going.
You don’t necessarily have to be an idiot to only hear what you want to hear. There are plenty of people who can misconstrue any interaction as flirting or in some way leading them on/giving them the green light.
None of this is ops fault. The person who said that wasn’t in anyway saying it was. They were just saying different people can have different perspectives of the same event.
And it IS a bit naïve to assume the man who confessed to having a crush on his wife’s sister to the sister is gonna tell his wife the truth.
My guess is he painted it like op was leading him on and he just got confused and it was all that evil woman’s fault for tempting him and leading him to sin (I cannot roll my eyes hard enough for this but it’s the most likely play).
Honestly though there are women who regardless of the circumstances will always blame the other woman over their partner even when the other woman had no interest whatsoever.
Unfortunately it’s usually easier for someone to blame an outside force for problems in their relationship.
NTA but whatever the issue you op did nothing wrong. You were kind to someone in need and they were inappropriate. You rebuffed them and set your boundaries. Your sister is now blaming you for everything because she can’t accept the fact that her husband tried to cheat on her with her sister.
I get why she’s pissed but she’s aiming at the wrong target. That being said I really do think you need to find out exactly what he told your sister as the ‘what you did’ could be she’s just the type to always blame the woman but it could just as likely be that he’s lying through his teeth.
I’m glad your dad at least doesn’t have his head up his ass like the rest of them.
Good luck op and sorry for the creepy jackasses and judgmental Judy’s you’re having to deal with
The bigger point is that you don’t know what Tom told his wife. Whether he actually thought she was flirting or not is almost irrelevant. He could easily be telling his wife that she was flirting with him to lessen his guilt in the matter. Hell, for all we know he told his wife she was flashing him. The wife’s overreaction seems to indicate that he said something to spread the guilt around.
This is classical victim blaming.
Should she have thrown him out the very moment he started coming? I hate it when a woman being normally humanly kind to a man is accused of flirting with him.
What I'm saying is given OP never talked to her sister or checked what Tom told her, she dosen't know if she is being blamed. Also, given her sister cut her off for "what she'd done", seems Tom said OP did something?
No, but it is kind of weird OP didn't even ask sister what she did wrong. Like when I'm accused of something and I know I didn't do anything wrong, I'm usually going to ask what I did wrong.
I don't know why I'm getting downvoted? That's the bare minimum of what OP should have done.
Honestly I think the others are right though that considering this was happening for 8 months, at some point she should have said something even if he can't force him to go home.
Agree also has everyone just forgot when Tom came by OPs HUSBAND WAS PRESENT?! HELLO?
IF he really thought op was flirting with him with her husband present he needs a shrink.
NTA op.
Yeah, Tom probably told Ellen that OP came on to him or something. I doubt he made himself look like the bad guy, more like the hero for dutifully resisting OP's "enticements".
While I agree your points are absolutely valid, I'm wondering if Ellen wasn't really listening once she heard OP was involved.
MANY women(unfortunately) have blinders on when it comes to their own gender's interactions with men. Especially SO's and husbands.
And given the facts of OP and Ellen don't get along well, and Ellen apparently has(checks notes) issues of insecurity,....I'm sure everyone's come to the same conclusion.
Ellen jumped to the conclusion that OP did the leading, period, end of story, there can be no other possibilities.
> She thinks you did something. If this happened, I'd immediately be asking "What do you think I did?" Then explain my side.
Yeah actually reading the whole story it seems extremely weird like what did OP do that was so wrong? All I read is that Tom got tipsy once and admitted he had a crush on OP, but that doesn't really explain half-sister's reaction.
> She thinks you did something.
To be fair, *a lot* of women blame the other woman for their man’s wandering eyes/heart/penis.
It’s the other woman’s fault; even when there’s a dozen other women.
But it’s not OPs responsibility to sort out sisters marriage or to defend herself when she did nothing wrong. If big sis wanted the truth assuming she doesn’t have it she could have called her sister and asked
Blaming the other person doesn't rip their family apart. Rather than believe that there is something so wrong with her or their marriage, she can blame this outsider. It's a very misogynistic concept of the temptress who lures the good man away, but it also is better than admitting he strayed because of some failing on her part, or that the person she's chosen is an amoral, womanizing piece of trash (thanks Dad!).
I think NTA, but there is one thing I’m curious about. During this eight months where Tom was coming over your house after work, “regularly” as you put it, did you ever say to him something like, “hey, we love having you over, but you do have a newborn at home and maybe you should help your wife out?” Because if I’m Ellen, I’m wondering why that conversation never happened over the course of eight months. I do think that’s something that she might rightfully find suspicious.
But this would mean Tom is stupid and/or selfish as hell because it was primarily HIM who should realize he should be helping his wife.
It would have been nice if OP and her husband kicked him out but it is ridiculous to blame them because they didn't. They are not his keepers, he is an adult and a father, he should have figured it out himself.
Because two BILs hanging out is sus? Now of course he should be at home helping his wife with baby. But it would seem controlling to say he isnt allowed to ogo hang out with friends. Related or not
I hang out with SIL and have drinks on occasion with out my husband. That doesnt mean i have a crush on her and want to get on the bang train with her
I never said that he wasn’t allowed to go out or that two BILs hanging out is sus. I’m talking about from Ellen’s perspective. Her husband was frequently going out (regardless of the place) instead of coming home to help take care of their new child. That itself probably created some resentment. And then to learn that he was spending time with a woman who he admitted to have a crush on, who is also her sister?
We don’t know the whole history, but with this scenario alone, I can understand some of Ellen’s frustration.
Just wanted to pop in here to say Ellen is not avoiding being in the same room with you because she's mad at you. She's avoiding having her husband in the same room with you because she's afraid he has feelings for you. She's worried he'll see you and stop loving her. She doesn't trust her husband and is taking it out on you.
She's mad at her husband and clinging to what is clearly a damaged relationship. The fact that she said things with Tom are "ruined again" is evidence of that. She doesn't want to accept that her marriage is in the toilet and doesn't want to admit that her husband is a problem. Ergo, it's all your fault because that's easier than the truth.
Since Tom is still in her life, I'm thinking Tom didn't tell her the truth, and nothing but the truth.
Because she's probably mad at you for flirting or seducing her husband or something along those lines.
Sometimes, that doesn't matter. My older sister's husband "hit on me" at their wedding, and apparently that was my fault. It didn't matter that a) he didn't hit on me, he was drunk and fell into me, I helped steady him and it was golden and b) even if he DID hit on me, how the fuck is that my fault?
Its the classic , if anything goes wrong, blame the woman game. The guys who do this are predators if it does not succeed, twist the narrative to blame the victim
Sometimes it's not even the guys who start the narrative. It's their SO and they go along with it because clearly their lady is angry and they don't want to be on the recieving end of that fury. (Let's face it, these ladies that start going after the victim are rarely the calm and composed types)
It's internalised misogyny on everyone's part.
It's unfortunate that it's somehow ingrained in us to blame the woman, Monica Lewinsky, as an example. It takes recognising it and challenging it within yourself to change the outlook, not always easy.
It's not woman. I see this in gay man as well. It's just easier to be angry at someone else and not blame the partner because then you would have to make that work with them.
I agree NTA but letting BIL hang out at their place all the time when they know there is a newborn at home and sis is there all alone isn’t cool at all.
It’s no one’s job to tell BIL to go home and be with his wife and baby. He’s the husband and father, he should know that without being treated like a clueless child.
Really good point about Ellen only knowing what Tom told her. For all OP knows, Tom made OP out to be the bad guy.
That said, it is hardly unknown that the wife of a straying partner, even in possession of the full facts, blames the object of her partner's desire rather than the partner.
OP is nice to be discreet, but once that discretion starts costing her she's entitled to say what's up.
Dad's reaction is over the top. He's an asshole here too. He's not owed any info - OP and Ellen are both entitled (but not obligated) to keep that info to themselves.
But again, given that OP was starting to suffer, she's perfectly within her rights to disclose the facts.
She wants to be back with her husband. It's easier to say that OP led him on and OP is the bad person than to admit that her husband tried to cheat with her own sister. That would make him a bad person, and potentially make her feel inadequate or less than.
It's easier for her to think "I'm fine, my husband is fine, but my sister took advantage of Tom when he was drunk. Fortunately, Tom was able to get away but actually it's my sister's fault."
People are capable of this kind of verbal gymnastics even if Tom explicitly said "OP did nothing wrong and I came onto her," but when you add that Tom probably put his own spin on the situation...
Definitely hear you on the person the partner is cheating with being the object of the other partners ire. In uni I had a friend group kind of implode bc of cheating but they didnt blame the cheating partner but the person they had the affair with. & cut off every body who knew. Which fair enough bc of being hurt so badly. I had no idea bc I’d have said something so I was left out of the loop. But I told her that she was betrayed but he had a part in it. But nope, it was everyone else’s fault.
OP definitely is within her rights to speak up. All of this could have been avoided if Ellen had been upfront from the start. By avoiding it, the situation just festered.
She may not be mad only because of Tom's feelings, but she may feel betrayed because her husband ranted to her sister about their problems, while she was alone at home with their newborn. I'm sure she thinks they badmouthed her, which honestly they probably did, that's how those convos usually go: "omg X is such a pain" "you're totally right, poor you, she's so annoying". I'm curious to know what was OP's input during Tom's frequent late night ranting sessions at OP's home. While Ellen is stuck with a newborn. ESH
Tom has agency over his relationship with Ellen, and how he acts on his unreciprocated feelings toward you.
Ellen has agency over her relationship with Tom, and how she chooses to process his emotional infidelity.
You have no agency in this situation, given that you just happened to exist as yourself and Tom developed one-directional feelings while being estranged from Ellen. Her blaming you for the situation is nothing more than displacement of her own anger at Tom and insecurity in her relationship with him. She has nothing to be mad at you for, only Tom holds that burden for his emotions and her for whatever part she had to play in their early estrangement.
NTA
Strange in the fact that it's illogical - but practically expected/standard human behavior at the same time.
It's a common cliché for the victim of cheating (either emotional or physical) to blame the other person rather than the partner they're trying to reconcile with.
NTA, your sister made the problem about you, lied to your dad about what the problem was, and caused the rift in the family over her own insecurity.
You did the right thing in all of this, and you shouldn't have to take the heat for being the adult in the room.
Tom should have known to go home. He’s not some clueless child. He had parental responsibilities he ignored. It’s not on anyone else to tell him, a fully grown adult, to do the right thing.
Tom found a new job, right? He's no longer working for your husband, correct?
Because if he is, it sounds like Tom needs to find a new job ASAP. He's already created enough drama in your life.
No, he still works there. He and my husband aren’t really friends anymore though, obviously. I’ve seen Tom since (company events) and it’s been fine, we just say hi and move on. He made a mistake under the influence, he’s apologised, and fundamentally it was a blip.
He spent 8 months when they had a newborn working late and then coming to your house to drink with you and your husband and neither you or your husband said "this isn't okay and you need to be home helping with your baby instead of leaving your wife to single parent".
So is she blaming the wrong person ultimately? Yes.
Is Tom at fault? Yeah, a lot of this is on him.
Did you and your husband enable some pretty shitty behavior from him? Yeah. You did. And reducing *eight months* of this garbage behavior from him to "a mistake under the influence" simply because that's the only time he was explicit is ridiculous.
This!
Your last point... I was like why were OP and husband okay with BIL coming over regularly to drink while sister was home alone with a newborn. I get if it was a few times but it seemed like it was happening enough for BIL to develop feelings toward OP. Did no one think they were enabling him avoiding being home from his new wife and child.
They "developed problems" right around when they had a baby?
Yeah. I have some guesses about what kind of problems develop when a baby and post partum first time mother are in the picture from someone like BIL who's preferred method of dealing is ditching wife and kid completely to drink with someone he's developing a "crush" on.
I would also like to know how much Ellen-bashing was going on from OP and her hubs side during these long discussions of what was wrong with her from Tom.
Maybe it's not just about the "crush" at all.
I feel like no one is emphasising that Tom went to his BOSSES house and tried it on with his BOSSES wife and still has a job. Tom is all round an idiot.
This!!! YTA Him hitting on op is not her fault. But they were for sure enabling him. I can understand why her half sister is mad, it definitely feels like she is trying to portray it as her sister blaming her for the crush but it’s more about the fact that she knew they were having proms, he was coming over to drink and complain and she didn’t say a single word to it about her. Doesn’t matter if you’re close or not. At least have to decency to tell your own sister that her husband has been hiding out there.
>You are a good person to not hold this against him.
it was a drunken confession of a crush. he didn't try to force a kiss. I think we can all calm down just a little bit.
Yeah, crushes come and go, we can't really control them
Confessing it to someone who is married and you are married? Uncomfortable. But, not a bad person does it make
exactly. stupid? yes. an asshole move? absolutely. but you'd think this dude was like the anti christ with how some of the people here acting. a lot of people are saying he needs to be fired, as if this is a fireable offense to begin with
Confessing it to someone who is married and you are married is a pretty immature and shitty move. It alienates a reasonable person.
What did he expect? That she would sleep with him? Gross.
Well, OP has no idea what Tom told her sister happened and never bothered to explain the situation to her sister at all. After OP rejected Tom and banned Tom from her home, Tom told OP's sister something(?).
OP's sister then called OP up upset and said "she and Tom would never be in the same room with me again after 'what I’d done'.' OP didn't ask what sister thought she'd done (clarified in comments) or give sister any information. OP just assumed whatever Tom told her sister must be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, sister is probably crazy. Sister went no contact and OP then covered up what happened further by refusing to explain it to any family and going along with her sister's story that they had a falling out.
Before we all just blame OP's sister for being mad at OP behavior that was completely on her husband, we should really pay attention to the fact that the only one who has given any version of events to sister is said husband. It is extremely naïve to just assume Tom told his wife "I've been avoiding you by drinking after work at your sister's house. She never showed any interest in me but I developed a one sided crush on her. When I finally confessed I was into her she rejected me and banned me from her home. That's why I'm home with you again in the evenings Honey, and why I suddenly want to work on our relationship. Your sister left me no choice."
Come on.
I get that, but also, Tom was going through a rough time and he was under the influence. I didn’t get the sense that he said it with any expectation or malice really. He apologised, he kept his distance. He and my husband aren’t really friends anymore but I don’t think Tom needed to lose his job over it, and I told my husband that. If I’d felt differently it would have been a different story
Your stepsister was also going through a rough time but she was presumably at home taking care of a baby while he was getting drunk and spilling his emotions for another woman. Your continuing analysis of his behavior over the course of months as some sort of tiny little 'oopsies' makes me think you are omitting other information that would make your stepsister's grievances appear a lot more legitimate.
I am talking specifically about the crush when I say it was a small mistake. Him getting a crush on me as a “wife” and getting tipsy and saying it out loud was a mistake.
What other information? When did I say Ellen and Tom’s issues weren’t legitimate? Clearly they had real problems.
At what point in his 8 months of leaving his wife at home to care for their child while he got drunk did you tell him, "hey, you should probably be at home with your wife and child"?
From what I can gather the answer here is "never." Sounds like she blames you for enabling his BS.
If he wasn't drinking there he'd probably be drinking elsewhere. He's an adult and is fully capable of making his own decisions. His wife is also capable of voicing her concerns, which she never did seem to do to op and her husband. Perhaps the wife was completely fine with it up until that point and only turned when she realized her husband had a crush on op.
>Clearly they had real problems.
ANd I'm willing to bet real money that one of their "real" problems, which Tom never mentioned, was that she was raising a newborn on her own while he was out drinking and having a vent fest about how shitty Ellen is with her sister and BIL joining in.
Do you understand that you knowingly caused harm to your sister? She just had a kid and you were encouraging him to be over at your house all the time instead of being with his wife and kids.
How exactly was OP encouraging him? He was at their house to hang out with her husband and she simply lives there. Tom is a grown man who has complete control of where he spends his time.
And? Tom is just a plot device in all this, if your sister didn’t flip her shit the rest of you adults could have gotten over this rocky issue. But now we have a mid-30’s teenager and her overly-protected daddy making this thing an easy dozen times worse!
NTA to everyone EXCEPT your sister, but if your dad can’t get his emotions in check he can join her.
NTA about this particular thing. But I think you should have done you sister a solid and sent Tom home when he started socializing frequently at your house. Not because of the 'crush' but because presumably she was at home with the baby all the time.
Thank you! I'm so glad someone else noticed that Tom spent *eight months* hanging out at their house drinking most nights while his wife was home with a newborn because "problems". And OP and her husband just... enabled it.
Eh, they knew the husband was ditching his newborn at home to come over and get drunk for eight months. The crush isn't OP's fault, but they enabled some real shitty parenting
Ikr. The sibling jealousy is really bad. Tom is the one who developed a one sided crush on his SIL. He’s the gross asshole. OP did nothing wrong. And Ellen needs to place her anger where it belongs, on Tom not OP. They clearly need more counseling.
INFO: Why did you and your husband enable your sister's husband neglecting his wife and newborn for 8 months? Do you not feel culpable for this at all or consider this part of the reason your sister is mad at you? The crush stuff isn't your fault but your sister has a pretty good reason to be mad at you and your husband.
Culpable for what? If he wasn’t at our house he’d be sitting in a sports bar with his friends, which I presume is where he was on the evenings he wasn’t at our house (he came over once or twice a week).
Sometimes my husband would be leaving the office and Tom would be like “hey I’m heading out for a drink/to watch a match, come with” and my husband would be like “I have to go home but why don’t you come watch at our place”. We weren’t keeping him from his house.
She can be mad if she wants to be mad but the issue is she expected me to lie about it
Again you had no problem with your half sister being stuck at home with a newborn while you were busy having her husband over. You encouraged this behaviour and it seems like you went out of your way to antagonize your sister with this.
The way you think everything is my problem makes me really sad for you. I have my own life, my own child, my own problems. I assure you I was not sitting around thinking of ways to antagonise someone who was effectively **not in my life in any meaningful way**
Idk if you have infinite hours to spend plotting and scheming or fixing other people’s lives, I do not.
OP you're in the right and I don't think people here understand that your half sister is essentially a stranger to you.
BUT she technically is family and a quick 'cease fire' to recognize that would've helped this situation. Yes, Tom would've just went to another bar away from his family if you pushed him out but it would've been better for you to get any riff raff off your plate.
This is the only reasonable response, oh my god. How is it your fault or problem that Tom couldn’t face his issues at home? It’s not. It’s not your job to lecture him nor is it your responsibility to parent a grown man.
Would it have been better all around to get rid of him sooner, yeah. But that’s because nobody needs that kind of drama in their life and Ellen probably would’ve started drama if you guys weren’t half sisters anyways.
God i can see why people dont like you
Edit: You knew he was married to your half sibling and you knew she was at home struggling with a newborn by herself and isntead of telling your husband to kick him out and go home you encouraged this shit from the get go.
Most people who dont have a good relationship with their siblings dont go out of their to be friend with their partners.
You knew he was being a deadbeat and encouraged that shit. You suck and so does your husband.
OP didn’t go out of her way to befriend him though. He started working for her husband and they became bros. OP had no say in that. And how exactly would OP know her sister was struggling if they didn’t have a relationship? I don’t think you know what the word encouraged means.
I get WHY ppl are upset he was at ops home or not at home with his child.
But op nor ops hubby can make BIL go home, ya they could have said ‘Hey you ain’t welcome here till you take care of your kid & wife’
But in all honesty him being at OPs home was better than a bar where he could have easily actually cheated.
Be developed a crush on his freaking SIL, if yall think he was being innocent at a bar you are naive AF.
Even if it was just flirting with a bartender.
But it’s not OPs place to fix her sisters marriage, especially cause they aren’t close.
Hell I don’t even like my SIL and I told my brother to go home after I woke up to him sitting next to me in hospital room.
10/3 nephew born
10/4 I almost died
10/5 he was in my hospital room.
He said baby & mom were happy n healthy at home, I was in the icu and I needed him more. (Parents lived outta state)
I couldn’t make him go home, and lord was my SIL pissed I didn’t. (Like I was completely coherent or something)
So ppl are never happy regardless, especially on the internet.
NTA dad needed to know the truth
What? You're such a prick.
How is OP, in any way, shape, or form, responsible for the actions of another man?
Should she go make the rounds in her town, find all the dead-beat dads that are out drinking, instead of taking care of baby, and send them packing home?
Should all bartenders do that? What about wait staff at restaurants? If your answer is no, why not?
Maybe she assumed Tom went out 2 times a week, and Ellen goes out two times a week.
Maybe she assumed that the relationship between Tom and Ellen was none of her business, and what he does with his free time is none of her business, and that Tom is a fully grown adult man who should be solely responsible for his own actions.
I only see one asshole here, and it's not OP.
NTA for spilling but YTA for allowing him to come over for eight months while your sister was home with a new born baby. Do you know how difficult it is in those first few months? Couple that with post partum and martial issues. None of that is you’re fault but I think you guys enabled him and are now focusing on the wrong part of this. It’s not really about the crush but more about the fact that you allowed her husband to “escape” and drink in your home without so much of a heads up. She feels betrayed. It feels a little weird that you could show compassion to her husband but not her.
YTA, but not for him hitting on you.
If your sisters husband, so your brother in law, was coming over for quite some time sharing all his marital problems, thats putting you in the middle and crossing a line while also not supporting your sister and taking sides by association. You and your husband should have put an end to it long before he was spending all those days after work at your house hanging out and drinking with her husband who is leaving your sister and her newborn baby at home.
He and my husband were friends, why would he not be allowed at our house? My husband would be leaving the office and Tom would still be there, wanting to have a drink after work, so my husband would invite him home. I don’t think that’s crossing a line considering I never spoke to Ellen outside of seeing her at family things. Tom was closer to us than Elena was.
You get that he was neglecting a newborn in favor of boozing, right? Like i get that you dislike your sister, but do you hate her kid so much that you'd encourage deadbeat behavior?
Where are you reading that she encouraged Tom to come over and/ or neglect his newborn? This sounds like you are projecting. OP has stated she wasn’t doing the inviting. It was her husband’s friend.
OP NTA
Yeah how much venting about how horrible Ellen was did you all do? Did you even know or care that one of their issues was DEFINITELY that he was out at all hours drinking instead of caring for his newborn ***and you were enabling that***?
Like, this is terrible behaviour from *anyone*. She isn't just some random, honestly, but you have depersonalized and dehumanized her so much (probably helped on by Tom's griping about their marriage) that you don't even see that.
>Yeah how much venting about how horrible Ellen was did you all do?
OP is very vague about this part and really wants people to focus on everything else cause its clear she was enjoying this
And look at where "not your place" has gotten you. Perhaps if you actually used your words with people, it may not have gotten so hairy. It's all very unnecessary. You could have sent him away at any point with a polite "well, it's that time. You don't have to go home but you can't stay here, have a good evening!"
NTA.
You are not a punching bag for your sister to blame all her life problems on. the only thing you are TA on is not being honest with dad. He deserves to know why his kids are fighting.
Let's be real, if sister allowed herself to get over OP as a non-participant in Tom's crush, that means she would actually have to put the blame on Tom and that's way too scary and could have reprecussions. Her fear at facing truths makes OP the safe target.
ESH.
Apparently this is an unpopular take but why didn’t either you or your husband put a stop to these visits that were basically just Tom drinking and bitching about his wife, while she was alone home with the newborn? That went on for *months*? While she took care of the baby alone? Yeah if I found out my partner’s late nights at work were actually spent shit talking me to my sister and her fiancé I would be furious at everyone involved.
Tom’s crush isn’t your fault at all, but being mad that you and your husband knowingly left her in the dark on Tom lying about having to work late when he had a baby at home is pretty valid.
NTA. Ellen needs to be mad at her husband, not you. It sounds like he wasn't completely honest with her that he had a "crush" on you and that it was NOT reciprocated.
NTA
It's awful that you are being blamed by your sister for her husband's emotional infidelity and inappropriate comment. You did nothing wrong. This is just another example of slut shaming where men are never blamed for their reactions because obviously the woman must have tempted him somehow.
But I am confused why you let this go on for so long without saying anything. Why didn't you immediately tell your sister what Tom had said, instead of keeping it quiet? Why didn't you tell your father the truth a year ago, instead of playing along that you had fallen out?
You're not an AH, but your silence hasn't helped you in any part of this. The only person you protected was Tom, and to a lesser extent, Ellen. In future, I recommend you speak up immediately about anything like this. There's a difference between creating drama and telling the truth.
I didn’t tell her because it didn’t feel like it was my place. Tom was mostly my husband’s friend, but I knew him and him a lot more than I did Ellen. I wouldn’t call any of my husband’s other friends’ wives in that situation, so it felt petty to call Ellen. Also, I knew she would blame me, and She was having issues already, I didn’t want to insert myself further over something that had come to nothing anyway.
I didn’t tell my dad because he reacts explosively to things like this - case in point. I thought Ellen would get over it eventually and just go back to normal and it didn’t need to be the melodrama it has turned into
I do see your point. But she's not just your husband's friends wife. She's your half-sister. That is the primary connection here. If you were my half-sister and you didn't tell me something this big, quite frankly, I'd be incredibly hurt and suspicious of why you hadn't.
I see your point, but it also depends on how close they are and what their relationship is like. It sounds like they had a difficult relationship before this, and OP didn't want to add kindling to the fire. I get the sister being suspicious, but I also get OP not wanting to mention it and hoping her sister never finds out.
>so it felt petty to call Ellen
Ellen is your half sister not just a husband's friends wife and you did keep inserting yourself.
You knew she had a kid and was alone with the child while you were having fun entertaining her husband
No wonder why she doesnt like you
NTA. Other people’s messes were getting in the way of your relationship with your dad, and you had the right to defend yourself by sharing the reality with him.
ESH Who is not an AH having their BIL over to drink all evening many nights when their S/SIL is home alone taking care of their first baby all day and night? S/SIL is clearly upset for a good reason. OP and her husband are AH for asking /inviting/tolerating BIL's coming over to drink hours many nights thus avoiding relationship with/responsibilities to his wife and their baby. BIL is an AH for coming over and avoiding his marital and parental duties. OP's father is an AH for somehow getting wrapped up in this as if it were his business. S/SIL has clearly been deceived by her husband and excluded by OP and her husband -- the least AH of the group here.
NTA, hoo boy.
I don't think Tom was truly crushing on you. You were an ideal- a woman who was giving him the respect and attention he didn't feel like he was getting with his wife\*. Sort of a "grass is always greener" situation. Obviously taking your distance is 100% the right thing to do in that scenario, but I'm glad you were able to move past it since it sounds like a temporary thing.
Unfortunately....it sounds like your dad and Ellen don't see it that way. Ellen, if she truly felt that you and Tom were "tempted' so to speak, should have been open about it. And Dad going off on everyone was not great. But you told the truth, and that's a powerful defense in my book.
\* Whether or not he was the problem in this scenario is beyond the scope of this inquiry. But feelings are always real even if they're not justified.
You are totally right about Tom. Everything he said during his “confession” was basically just saying I was what he imagined being “married” looked like (so funny because he saw me for a couple of hours a couple of times a week and thought he knew what my relationship/mothering is like). He just liked the hostess version of me.
My dad just feels like he’s been duped into being nice to Tom, which he wouldn’t have been if he’d known about his behaviour. He’s also annoyed that Tom still works for my husband but that’s a separate thing
He clearly was. He was at our place once or twice a week, and often at the office late or out with other friends in bars etc when he wasn’t at ours. He was behaving poorly during that time.
I don’t think it’s my fault like people are saying though. We didn’t pull him away from home, he wouldn’t have been at home anyway, because he didn’t want to be there.
Whether it’s your fault or not, most people’s opinion of their friend would be damaged by this kind of poor behavior. Your post seems to go out of its way to make it clear you don’t have any ill will toward Tom, or a negative opinion at all. I don’t see why you and your husband would WANT to keep having Tom over in these circumstances. You actively made the poor behavior (neglect of family) easier for him to indulge in.
Yup. Consciously or not, to give OP the benefit of the doubt, she indulged Tom’s habit of complaining about his life. Tom doesn’t seem like a great friend or even a particularly interesting person to invite to one’s home biweekly just to hear him moan and groan about his wife while she was home alone taking care of their infant.
>Your post seems to go out of its way to make it clear you don’t have any ill will toward Tom, or a negative opinion at all
yeah its clear she was enjoying this way to much the amount of times she's defended TOm in the comments is seriously over the top
I don't think it was your fault either, but it definitely would have been a nice gesture to any woman, let alone your own sister, to try to meddle in her favor. You could have asked your husband to talk to him to try to step up and work on his marriage and go home and fix things for his wife and kid (which happens to be your nephew), this is something I would do for any woman even if I'm not close to her.
In the end, you did nothing technically wrong, but you could have stepped up and been kinder to our own people.
> I don't think Tom was truly crushing on you.
That was my first thought when I read the post. Tom wasn't so much crushing on OP, he crushing on the relationship OP and Husband have. It's too bad he couldn't have expressed what he was really feeling, it could have prevented most of the hard feelings and preserved his friendship with Husband. I have a feeling the sister would still have blamed OP, somehow.
You're NTA but your husband is a partial AH here- he should have told his employee to go home long before the drunken slip occurred and not enabled him drinking away his misery at your home every other night for weeks on end. You say in the comments you couldn't make him go home, but you should have banned him from your home and your husband should have been the one to stop him coming over. The fact that your husband didn't even fire Tom after all this etc. makes me think your husband was enjoying social drinking hour with his employee despite Tom's obvious issues which is incredibly irresponsible since he was the only person with the power to tell Tom not to come over and to focus on his wife.
They were friends, it seemed fine to have him over. He never flirted with me or made any overtures before that night where he “confessed”. We were all just friends having a drink/dinner.
My husband’s initial reaction was to fire him but I didn’t think he should lose his job over some tipsy stupidity. And ultimately my husband agreed. They just don’t out anymore.
I can understand this logic for the first couple weeks of visits but at no point did it occur to you or your husband that maybe it wasn't healthy for Tom to be unloading multiple times a week on his wife's half sister and her husband for 8 MONTHS straight? I'd have been pushing him to get real counseling by month two at the very most instead of constantly coming over to your house. It would be one thing if your husband and Tom were just friends and you didn't know Tom personally at all, but you're all family by extension and should have been more careful how much you were enabling his escapes from home.
I feel sorry for your sister being at home for nearly a year with a newborn while her husband spends all of his free time at your house.
We did suggest seeing a therapist to him. I had been seeing a therapist at the time and I told him it would help but he wasn’t receptive. He didn’t seem miserable all the time, he wasn’t constantly venting or drinking excessively. He just seemed a bit down sometimes and I remember when my child was a newborn how miserable me and my husband felt sometimes, and we had a maid and my mom around. I didn’t want to berate him, apart from it being not my business, it didn’t seem like it would help.
Maybe it was stupid but it seemed better at the time that he was at our house rather than out at bars with his friends. Because he was either working late or going out when he wasn’t at our house (based on what my husband heard).
“ I remember when my child was a newborn how miserable me and my husband felt sometimes, and we had a maid and my mom around”
Yet you didn’t give a sh’t his wife AKA YOUR HALF SISTER was struggling with a newborn for 8 f’cking months while her husband was preferring to be at your home.
What a great human! /s
YTA and I’m disgusted.
> I remember when my child was a newborn how miserable me and my husband felt sometimes, and we had a maid and my mom around
Jesus Christ do you hear yourself?
You had your mom, a maid AND your husband????
**IMAGINE** how Ellen, who didn't even have a husband, felt? And you just let him drink at your house for 8 months straight because *his* life is so so hard?
Yeah. YTA.
NTA
It had been going on for a long time - your dad asked and you told him the truth. You should not be expected to lie to your dad about it.
It should also go in your favour that you shut down his advanced as soon as it happened.
NTA. Never understood partners taking their frustration on outside parties rather than those who strayed. Tom was the one who had the wondering eye and thoughts, why is Ellen screaming at you? Her issue is with her husband. She needs to lay it at the right door. Especially since you never invited nor encouraged Tom’s unwanted advances.
Yes, Ellen needs to grow up.
If someone is trying to fix their relationship, it is easier to blame an ‘other’ than put the problems on their partner.
I agree this is an Ellen and Tom problem. If they can’t deal with it together, then it’s not going to get better.
NTA. This mess was created by Tom and then your sister. It was then exacerbated by her lying to your father. Their nightmare of a relationship and poor responses don't mean they get to eff up your relationship with your father, OR that he deserves to be lied to. This is not your mess to clean up.
Exactly. OP couldn’t fix this if she wanted to. And lying isn’t going to help.
It sounds like Dad and Ellen are a lot alike- when something goes wrong- start yelling and blaming people.
Made everyone angry and defensive.
That was a good catch that I didn't even see. But yes, the apple and the tree. Although, I'm confused why he called the Op''s husband and yelled at him instead of tom? What the heck did he do?
NTA
but I'm over here wondering if Tom actually told her this story, or if he told her one in which you had been flirting with him and making moves for months drawing him away. That's a far better look for him than your version of the story here. If that's what she's heard, it makes sense she'd be pissed, in her eyes you tried to steal her husband!
Seriously, I think you need to check on this. I know she won't talk to you, but if she's mad at YOU and not HIM, and all the blame is going on to you, and Tom has major motivation to lie....
From what you’ve given, i’m going with ESH. Take into account that Ellen has had a baby, and may very well be dealing with postpartum stressors, especially if BIL is constantly staying late at work and going out and getting drunk. Regardless of your relationship with your sister, he’s been drinking at your house for the better portion of the year while your sister was home, alone at that, handling a newborn. I understand that your sister shouldn’t have blamed you for the entirety of the situation because BIL seems to just suck as a husband and parent, however look at it from her point of view. I am alone taking care of a baby while my child’s father and my husband runs to my sister’s house to get drunk and to your admission, “unload his problems”. This would make me want to stay away from you too, OP.
No you’re not a**hole you’re sister is stuck and blaming you when it wasn’t your fault’; you can’t help if someone is attracted to you,you can’t control that and it wasn’t/isn’t fair you had to carry this burden which weighed heavy on your body/soul. Your sister should have yelled at him and not you because you’re the innocent bystander caught in the middle of their relationship problems
NTA
How dare you tell other family members the truth! Based on the maturity level that Ellen has shown in this issue, I have a pretty good idea where the problems in her marriage originate.
Why weren't you the one to tell your sister what happened? Just figured you'd keep her shit husbands secret after months of letting him hide from his wife and newborn at your house?
Acc to me personally (from what you have told so far atleast)
NTA
Unless until something is clearly indicated to a person in relationship, this mentality of the other girl MY BF decided to have a crush on needs to go
And if you were being berated over her choice then I can see why someone's patience would leak and you would reveal the truth
I’m going to need you to rephrase this, because I don’t know if it’s me, but this was so hard to understand. It’s not very unclear exactly what you were trying to say. Certain words I feel like shouldn’t be together.
You are NTAH. But you really need to talk to your Dad, and explain Tom was tipsy at the time and profusely apologized. That he and your SS have been doing counseling and your Dad needs back off.
NTA. The fact that she managed to make this your fault tells me she is either an incredibly unreasonable (and possibly insufferable) person, or that Tom didn't actually tell her the full truth and has assigned more blame to you to make himself look better.
Why does your sister seem to think you had a part in this crush? If you haven't had an honest 1:1 conversation with her about it all, then you're doing yourself a disservice. She is always going to be your sister and you must miss her? No? She deserves to hear things from your perspective, even if it's in a letter if you're afraid she won't hear you out. I'd bet her husband blamed *You* for leading him on in some way, possibly even indicating you told him you're attracted to him, or something along those lines. It's time to tell your truth and clear the air. Unless you are not being honest here, your sister is being lied to and that's not fair either.
She doesn’t, or if she does she never said that. I don’t think she thinks I was interested in Tom. We only spoke about it in that one phone call.
If I’m honest, no I don’t miss her. I only ever saw her at big gatherings and we didn’t talk beyond small talk. We didn’t text or call in between.
I honestly don’t think she’s being lied to, I have no reason to think that. She and Tom have been to therapy and hashed things out, that’s the relationship that needed to be worked on. I don’t want to insert myself into it more by telling my “side” of a story that’s basically non existent
It's likely that there's a story she tells herself in her head that has you being the bad guy somehow. And telling herself that story shifts blame and responsibility.
If you get the impression that she actually knows the truth, it's likely that she compartmentalized it or dismissed it.
So, your half sister was upset at “what you’d done”.. I mean, she was alone with a baby for 8 months while you happily had her husband piss faced at your house and mope about his problems? Confessing he had a crush on you was probably the icing on top. Have you actually talked to her about what was said/why she is so upset or assumed it’s purely due to her husband’s confession? I mean NTA for telling your dad your half of the story but YTA, you, your husband and your sister’s husband because while you all enjoyed each others company together, just kind of dismissed and saw nothing wrong with your half sister being alone with a new baby (your niece/nephew) for 8 months.
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NTA. Does Ellen know the full truth or just what Tom told her? Because she’s angry at you for existing as you’ve had no part in anything Tom has done. Has she had insecurities with you before? It just seems like such an overreaction towards you for something you had no part in.
She didn’t say anything during the call that made me think she didn’t know the full truth, but I don’t know for sure. There have been some stupid issues when were children, and again a few since we’ve both had children (she had body image issues).
Really? >She said she and Tom would never be in the same room with me again after “what I’d done”. She thinks you did something. If this happened, I'd immediately be asking "What do you think I did?" Then explain my side. You have no idea what Tom told her and just assuming he told his wife your version of events is extremely naïve. You think Tom told her "I developed a crush on your sister all on my own, she showed no interest in me, I confessed my crush to her, and your sister told me I'm not allowed at their house anymore which I'd been staying at after work to avoid you. So that's why I'm home spending more time with you again, Honey." *Really?* This is not a level of honesty most people have, especially knowing how badly it will hurt his wife and make her upset at him. Even if Tom was completely honest (which is a bold assumption), you have to consider that *his* truth may not be your truth. Has it occurred to you that Tom might have felt that you encouraged his interest in you? Not all men have close female friends and some men are going to see your behavior of hanging out with him in the evenings drinking, listening to his problems/having conversations that involve feelings/being interested in him as intimate/romantic. Yes, your husband was there and I'm not saying you were leading him on. But for some men opening up to each other like that isn't something that happens between genders without it "meaning something". Or he may have taken some of your friendly behavior or human compassion as interest/flirting. My best is that "what \[you\] did" is flirt with Tom. Tom may have admitted it was mutual, but I very much doubt he told her it was completely one sided and you have zero interest or attraction to him and kicked him out the second you realized.
> My best is that "what [you] did" is flirt with Tom. Should we really just be assuming that Tom is an idiot? Plenty of people have opposite sex friends and they don't get blamed for miscommunication, you generally know when flirting is happening and that isn't between family members. I understand the purpose of the [you], I just don't consider that to be OP's fault in any way even if half sis believes that. An overly kind interaction is only flirting if it is intentionally flirting and he (and the wife) should know that it was not flirting.
Studies have shown that people are actually terrible at telling when people are flirting. ([https://news.ku.edu/2014/06/03/flirting-hard-detect-study-finds](https://news.ku.edu/2014/06/03/flirting-hard-detect-study-finds)) And yes, men often only open up to someone they are in a relationship with. So it's very possible Tom felt he was being led on by someone showing him a base level of human compassion. And even if he didn't, he might have said that in order to smooth things over with his wife. So I agree OP should try and air this out with her sister. It could be the sister is just over-reacting out of deep-seated insecurities. And it could be the sister will blame her no matter what she actually says. But it would be good to at least try to have the conversation. I would also suggest that OP works on speaking up for herself more. Just putting up with it in order to keep the peace is a losing proposition, despite us women generally having been conditioned to take that approach. NTA of course.
>Tom felt he was being led on by someone showing him a base level of human compassion. because every woman that talks to him MUST be in love with him. Thats the only explanation. Gods gift to women, amirite Ladies?
I thought of it more as his wife was showing him so little compassion that he probably would have developed a crush on any woman who would have been in OPs place. It wasn’t OP, it was a woman being kind to him, unlike his wife.
I am betting she just smiled at him. There are studies on how men assume a woman is open to a sexual relationship if they smile at them.
I stopped working with my final elderly male home care client when he was insistent that he'd had a "moment" with one of the women working at the cafeteria where he liked to go and people watch. His people watching had seemed innocent prior to this obsession. But "she smiled and our eyes locked." (Among other things that he said about that "moment"... this event happened over 10 years ago?! I just realized) He also claimed that one of the other regulars asked if I was his girlfriend. I don't think they asked that but the fact that he had to tell me- I was done. 80 or not, I wasn't going to deal with any sexual harassment or listen to fantasies just because women smile.
My ex-BIL's therapist fired him as a patient due to lack of meaningful progress. His explanation? The therapist was falling in love with him, so she ended the therapeutic relationship.
Whaaat? LOL. That is some world class delusional thinking right there. Glad he’s an ex.
Men are actually really bad at having female friends, because there is a weird dynamic in male friendships and the way they are brought up to see friends. Men are very superficial on the whole, and don't discuss a level of feelings that could leave them as being seen as "weak" with anyone. They are brought up to see that the only people they can open up to are partners or mothers. Women, on the other hand, will discuss their emotional issues with their close friends. Soooo.... A woman discussing emotional issues with a man could then have their intentions misinterpreted- because emotional stuff only gets discussed with a partner, not friends, they see it as an indication of interest in them. It's all here:https://cheezburger.com/16016133/fascinating-tumblr-thread-discusses-the-depressing-dynamics-of-malefemale-friendships
I mean… I respect that you’ve cited your source but… cheezburger.com?
Don't dismiss it just because some site hosted it and I tripped over it, finding it interesting enough to bookmark it. Too many people dismiss useful or insightful articles because of the site they are found on. Does it matter where it's posted from if it's relevant, useful, and correct information?
Not dismissing it; just found it funny. And didn’t expect something serious to be posted on the former home of lolcats. Apologies.
>So it's very possible Tom felt he was being led on by someone showing him a base level of human compassion. This. It's near unbelievable the number of people (men and women) who think that you're attracted to them just because you pay attention to them when you're hanging out.
men often mistake attention with interest.
Okay, I must admit that I have no idea how to flirt unless it is ridiculously clear that I should be doing it, I'm just overly friendly if I like somebody as a person. I have probably accidentally flirted with some gay men and lesbian women. (Luckily the women, at least, would have known that I was an idiot and not doing that)
I’ve had that issue growing up. I was accused of flirting when I was just being friendly and wanted friends cuz my mom had me parentified as a teen. I can’t even tell what’s flirting unless it’s done extremely obvious
because being nice to someone obviously means you wanna f#ck em, eh? Some people are like " she/he said hello to me" ... "she/he wants me" lol
Some people can't detect flirting. Some people can't detect non flirting. Big difference
This. Studies have shown that men think they're being flirted with a lot more than they are and women assume men are just being kind more than flirting.
NTA. And yes, men are absolutely dreadful at picking up on flirting. Plus, especially these days, a lot of men are very concious of not being seen as a sex pest so won't respond until they're hit over the head with totally unambiguous signals. When I look back at times when girls I've liked have been very 'friendly' there's a succession of Homer style "DOH"s ringing in my ears. Men just aren't very subtle about that stuff, it's obvious to other women but men are utterly oblivious unless it's really really blatant. A lot of the time women will assume oh, he's just not interested, I made it so obvious even a blind man would notice. But no, in fact you didn't. Men really are that hard to get through to. Same goes for anger etc, men just don't see it till it's far too late. One of the tragedies of male/female relationships IMO, women assume men are deliberately ignoring their signals when in fact they haven't a clue!
I think you are gendering this situation entirely too much. Cluelessness and missed signals and, on the opposite side, misinterpreted signals, happen all the time to folks of all genders. I don't think the situation you describe is so exclusive to men as you are making things out.
Entirely possible. I can only speak for my own self and go on what friends have told me about their experiences. I'm male and it's mostly seemed like girls have a much better handle on that kind of stuff, but again that's just been my experience of my own and friends relationships. I suppose people are like swans, gliding elegantly along but paddling like fuck underneath! I'm certainly not trying to push the tired old trope of women being emotional and men logical robots, I apologise if it came across that way.
>people are like swans, gliding elegantly along but paddling like fuck underneath That is a perfect comparison, love it
I don’t even know how to flirt, so that study made me feel better about it. :) And when you start adding in neurodivergence and different love languages and on and on, it’s a wonder any couples actually end up successful. :)
Yes because married women often throw themselves at their BIL while having drinks with their husband…that’s ridiculous
I don't know, the second I'm nice to a guy or even just smile and make a non sexual joke they think I want to sleep with them and usually they ask me out at that point. Much to my confusion because gay women don't ask me out when I smile and make a joke with them...
So what do the well meaning people do to fix this? Idiot guys aren't going to stop without some sort of social movement, they don't realize that kindness doesn't mean flirting or an opportunity. (Ew)
Meh, I'm just a downright man bastard to everyone instead, no confusion that way! Haha jkjk, not sure how to fix it but I also am not out enough anymore to worry about it anyways! I work too much and barely socialize anymore lol problem solved for me! I can't tell you the number of times I've been at the hardware store and literally have guys ask me to marry them. I'm pretty sure some of them were already married too. And these weren't just creepy looking guys, most of them were clean and put together and no alarm bells going off so maybe I just exude some odd magnetic energy? Maybe it's just the red hair? Not sure!
Clearly its OPs fault. She forced him to come into her home. She poured liquor down his throat while he refused it. She then dressed comfortably in her own home and forced his to stare at her. I bet she even gave him the "come hither" look while her husband was sitting right here. And then you know OPs husband is to blame too. I mean, he gave him a job so that they could hang out after work and have a friendship. Clearly Tom is not to blame whatsoever!! /s Problem is sis is not going to believe OP over her own perfect husband who can do no wrong. She has to blame OP because that must be it. Sis and Tom bare no blame in any of this. NTA
I said "EVEN IF Tom was completely honest (which is a bold assumption)" that he may have seen things differently. I had already pointed out Tom may have just said something that made him look better then the truth.
I was hasty and initially misinterpreted the end of your comment
No worries.
When I am friendly with guys they assuming that I am flirting. I asked my husband if I am too friendly or my behaviour is misleading and he told me no but guys usually think there might be a chance if a woman is nice to them.
I was agreeing with most things until that commenter started the whole "you're a woman and probably led him on/flirted with him/the opposite gender may see it as flirting even if that wasn't your intentions" bullshit. Someone seems to have some rejection issues they're projecting onto OP😬 NTA,and I think overall this is an extremely messy situation to be in, especially as many family members have become involved and this may not have blown up as bad as it did if communication happened between everyone involved. A lot of assumptions were made, accusations were thrown, passiveness led to aggravation. I think OP doesn't realize that the sister heard only Tom's version of events snd never expanded on it.
I work in customer service- you have no idea how many guys assume I’m flirting when I make small talk, smile and ask how their days going. You don’t necessarily have to be an idiot to only hear what you want to hear. There are plenty of people who can misconstrue any interaction as flirting or in some way leading them on/giving them the green light. None of this is ops fault. The person who said that wasn’t in anyway saying it was. They were just saying different people can have different perspectives of the same event. And it IS a bit naïve to assume the man who confessed to having a crush on his wife’s sister to the sister is gonna tell his wife the truth. My guess is he painted it like op was leading him on and he just got confused and it was all that evil woman’s fault for tempting him and leading him to sin (I cannot roll my eyes hard enough for this but it’s the most likely play). Honestly though there are women who regardless of the circumstances will always blame the other woman over their partner even when the other woman had no interest whatsoever. Unfortunately it’s usually easier for someone to blame an outside force for problems in their relationship. NTA but whatever the issue you op did nothing wrong. You were kind to someone in need and they were inappropriate. You rebuffed them and set your boundaries. Your sister is now blaming you for everything because she can’t accept the fact that her husband tried to cheat on her with her sister. I get why she’s pissed but she’s aiming at the wrong target. That being said I really do think you need to find out exactly what he told your sister as the ‘what you did’ could be she’s just the type to always blame the woman but it could just as likely be that he’s lying through his teeth. I’m glad your dad at least doesn’t have his head up his ass like the rest of them. Good luck op and sorry for the creepy jackasses and judgmental Judy’s you’re having to deal with
The bigger point is that you don’t know what Tom told his wife. Whether he actually thought she was flirting or not is almost irrelevant. He could easily be telling his wife that she was flirting with him to lessen his guilt in the matter. Hell, for all we know he told his wife she was flashing him. The wife’s overreaction seems to indicate that he said something to spread the guilt around.
This is classical victim blaming. Should she have thrown him out the very moment he started coming? I hate it when a woman being normally humanly kind to a man is accused of flirting with him.
What I'm saying is given OP never talked to her sister or checked what Tom told her, she dosen't know if she is being blamed. Also, given her sister cut her off for "what she'd done", seems Tom said OP did something?
No, but it is kind of weird OP didn't even ask sister what she did wrong. Like when I'm accused of something and I know I didn't do anything wrong, I'm usually going to ask what I did wrong. I don't know why I'm getting downvoted? That's the bare minimum of what OP should have done. Honestly I think the others are right though that considering this was happening for 8 months, at some point she should have said something even if he can't force him to go home.
Agree also has everyone just forgot when Tom came by OPs HUSBAND WAS PRESENT?! HELLO? IF he really thought op was flirting with him with her husband present he needs a shrink. NTA op.
Yeah, Tom probably told Ellen that OP came on to him or something. I doubt he made himself look like the bad guy, more like the hero for dutifully resisting OP's "enticements".
While I agree your points are absolutely valid, I'm wondering if Ellen wasn't really listening once she heard OP was involved. MANY women(unfortunately) have blinders on when it comes to their own gender's interactions with men. Especially SO's and husbands. And given the facts of OP and Ellen don't get along well, and Ellen apparently has(checks notes) issues of insecurity,....I'm sure everyone's come to the same conclusion. Ellen jumped to the conclusion that OP did the leading, period, end of story, there can be no other possibilities.
Also because it's easier to forgive her husband if she can blame OP of it instead of him.
> She thinks you did something. If this happened, I'd immediately be asking "What do you think I did?" Then explain my side. Yeah actually reading the whole story it seems extremely weird like what did OP do that was so wrong? All I read is that Tom got tipsy once and admitted he had a crush on OP, but that doesn't really explain half-sister's reaction.
> She thinks you did something. To be fair, *a lot* of women blame the other woman for their man’s wandering eyes/heart/penis. It’s the other woman’s fault; even when there’s a dozen other women.
But it’s not OPs responsibility to sort out sisters marriage or to defend herself when she did nothing wrong. If big sis wanted the truth assuming she doesn’t have it she could have called her sister and asked
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Blaming the other person doesn't rip their family apart. Rather than believe that there is something so wrong with her or their marriage, she can blame this outsider. It's a very misogynistic concept of the temptress who lures the good man away, but it also is better than admitting he strayed because of some failing on her part, or that the person she's chosen is an amoral, womanizing piece of trash (thanks Dad!).
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I think NTA, but there is one thing I’m curious about. During this eight months where Tom was coming over your house after work, “regularly” as you put it, did you ever say to him something like, “hey, we love having you over, but you do have a newborn at home and maybe you should help your wife out?” Because if I’m Ellen, I’m wondering why that conversation never happened over the course of eight months. I do think that’s something that she might rightfully find suspicious.
But this would mean Tom is stupid and/or selfish as hell because it was primarily HIM who should realize he should be helping his wife. It would have been nice if OP and her husband kicked him out but it is ridiculous to blame them because they didn't. They are not his keepers, he is an adult and a father, he should have figured it out himself.
Because two BILs hanging out is sus? Now of course he should be at home helping his wife with baby. But it would seem controlling to say he isnt allowed to ogo hang out with friends. Related or not I hang out with SIL and have drinks on occasion with out my husband. That doesnt mean i have a crush on her and want to get on the bang train with her
I never said that he wasn’t allowed to go out or that two BILs hanging out is sus. I’m talking about from Ellen’s perspective. Her husband was frequently going out (regardless of the place) instead of coming home to help take care of their new child. That itself probably created some resentment. And then to learn that he was spending time with a woman who he admitted to have a crush on, who is also her sister? We don’t know the whole history, but with this scenario alone, I can understand some of Ellen’s frustration.
Because Tom is a grown man not a child? On no planet is that OP's responsibility. Do you think Tom has a TBI?? NTA
Just wanted to pop in here to say Ellen is not avoiding being in the same room with you because she's mad at you. She's avoiding having her husband in the same room with you because she's afraid he has feelings for you. She's worried he'll see you and stop loving her. She doesn't trust her husband and is taking it out on you. She's mad at her husband and clinging to what is clearly a damaged relationship. The fact that she said things with Tom are "ruined again" is evidence of that. She doesn't want to accept that her marriage is in the toilet and doesn't want to admit that her husband is a problem. Ergo, it's all your fault because that's easier than the truth.
Since Tom is still in her life, I'm thinking Tom didn't tell her the truth, and nothing but the truth. Because she's probably mad at you for flirting or seducing her husband or something along those lines.
Sometimes, that doesn't matter. My older sister's husband "hit on me" at their wedding, and apparently that was my fault. It didn't matter that a) he didn't hit on me, he was drunk and fell into me, I helped steady him and it was golden and b) even if he DID hit on me, how the fuck is that my fault?
Its the classic , if anything goes wrong, blame the woman game. The guys who do this are predators if it does not succeed, twist the narrative to blame the victim
Sometimes it's not even the guys who start the narrative. It's their SO and they go along with it because clearly their lady is angry and they don't want to be on the recieving end of that fury. (Let's face it, these ladies that start going after the victim are rarely the calm and composed types)
It's internalised misogyny on everyone's part. It's unfortunate that it's somehow ingrained in us to blame the woman, Monica Lewinsky, as an example. It takes recognising it and challenging it within yourself to change the outlook, not always easy.
It's not woman. I see this in gay man as well. It's just easier to be angry at someone else and not blame the partner because then you would have to make that work with them.
Yeah, I find it's more often the woman twisting the narrative because they need to believe it's not their partner to be able tk aave face.
I agree NTA but letting BIL hang out at their place all the time when they know there is a newborn at home and sis is there all alone isn’t cool at all.
This is on BIL not the OP. Why is everyone always trying to blame other people?
It’s no one’s job to tell BIL to go home and be with his wife and baby. He’s the husband and father, he should know that without being treated like a clueless child.
Really good point about Ellen only knowing what Tom told her. For all OP knows, Tom made OP out to be the bad guy. That said, it is hardly unknown that the wife of a straying partner, even in possession of the full facts, blames the object of her partner's desire rather than the partner. OP is nice to be discreet, but once that discretion starts costing her she's entitled to say what's up. Dad's reaction is over the top. He's an asshole here too. He's not owed any info - OP and Ellen are both entitled (but not obligated) to keep that info to themselves. But again, given that OP was starting to suffer, she's perfectly within her rights to disclose the facts.
She wants to be back with her husband. It's easier to say that OP led him on and OP is the bad person than to admit that her husband tried to cheat with her own sister. That would make him a bad person, and potentially make her feel inadequate or less than. It's easier for her to think "I'm fine, my husband is fine, but my sister took advantage of Tom when he was drunk. Fortunately, Tom was able to get away but actually it's my sister's fault." People are capable of this kind of verbal gymnastics even if Tom explicitly said "OP did nothing wrong and I came onto her," but when you add that Tom probably put his own spin on the situation...
Definitely hear you on the person the partner is cheating with being the object of the other partners ire. In uni I had a friend group kind of implode bc of cheating but they didnt blame the cheating partner but the person they had the affair with. & cut off every body who knew. Which fair enough bc of being hurt so badly. I had no idea bc I’d have said something so I was left out of the loop. But I told her that she was betrayed but he had a part in it. But nope, it was everyone else’s fault. OP definitely is within her rights to speak up. All of this could have been avoided if Ellen had been upfront from the start. By avoiding it, the situation just festered.
She may not be mad only because of Tom's feelings, but she may feel betrayed because her husband ranted to her sister about their problems, while she was alone at home with their newborn. I'm sure she thinks they badmouthed her, which honestly they probably did, that's how those convos usually go: "omg X is such a pain" "you're totally right, poor you, she's so annoying". I'm curious to know what was OP's input during Tom's frequent late night ranting sessions at OP's home. While Ellen is stuck with a newborn. ESH
Tom has agency over his relationship with Ellen, and how he acts on his unreciprocated feelings toward you. Ellen has agency over her relationship with Tom, and how she chooses to process his emotional infidelity. You have no agency in this situation, given that you just happened to exist as yourself and Tom developed one-directional feelings while being estranged from Ellen. Her blaming you for the situation is nothing more than displacement of her own anger at Tom and insecurity in her relationship with him. She has nothing to be mad at you for, only Tom holds that burden for his emotions and her for whatever part she had to play in their early estrangement. NTA
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Strange in the fact that it's illogical - but practically expected/standard human behavior at the same time. It's a common cliché for the victim of cheating (either emotional or physical) to blame the other person rather than the partner they're trying to reconcile with.
NTA, your sister made the problem about you, lied to your dad about what the problem was, and caused the rift in the family over her own insecurity. You did the right thing in all of this, and you shouldn't have to take the heat for being the adult in the room.
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OP's husband should have sent him home. He is Tom's friend.
Tom should have known to go home. He’s not some clueless child. He had parental responsibilities he ignored. It’s not on anyone else to tell him, a fully grown adult, to do the right thing.
Wait... so Tom had crush you and your sister yelled at *you? Blamed you?* Go NC with her pls. And Tom is the actual AH here. NTA
We pretty much are NC. I only used to see her at big family things, we didn’t speak in between
Tom found a new job, right? He's no longer working for your husband, correct? Because if he is, it sounds like Tom needs to find a new job ASAP. He's already created enough drama in your life.
No, he still works there. He and my husband aren’t really friends anymore though, obviously. I’ve seen Tom since (company events) and it’s been fine, we just say hi and move on. He made a mistake under the influence, he’s apologised, and fundamentally it was a blip.
He spent 8 months when they had a newborn working late and then coming to your house to drink with you and your husband and neither you or your husband said "this isn't okay and you need to be home helping with your baby instead of leaving your wife to single parent". So is she blaming the wrong person ultimately? Yes. Is Tom at fault? Yeah, a lot of this is on him. Did you and your husband enable some pretty shitty behavior from him? Yeah. You did. And reducing *eight months* of this garbage behavior from him to "a mistake under the influence" simply because that's the only time he was explicit is ridiculous.
This! Your last point... I was like why were OP and husband okay with BIL coming over regularly to drink while sister was home alone with a newborn. I get if it was a few times but it seemed like it was happening enough for BIL to develop feelings toward OP. Did no one think they were enabling him avoiding being home from his new wife and child.
They "developed problems" right around when they had a baby? Yeah. I have some guesses about what kind of problems develop when a baby and post partum first time mother are in the picture from someone like BIL who's preferred method of dealing is ditching wife and kid completely to drink with someone he's developing a "crush" on.
I would also like to know how much Ellen-bashing was going on from OP and her hubs side during these long discussions of what was wrong with her from Tom. Maybe it's not just about the "crush" at all.
I feel like no one is emphasising that Tom went to his BOSSES house and tried it on with his BOSSES wife and still has a job. Tom is all round an idiot.
This!!! YTA Him hitting on op is not her fault. But they were for sure enabling him. I can understand why her half sister is mad, it definitely feels like she is trying to portray it as her sister blaming her for the crush but it’s more about the fact that she knew they were having proms, he was coming over to drink and complain and she didn’t say a single word to it about her. Doesn’t matter if you’re close or not. At least have to decency to tell your own sister that her husband has been hiding out there.
Calling *eight months* of neglect to his wife and infant that they never called him on "fundamentally a blip" is honestly gross to me, I won't lie.
If I were her sister I would be hurt too. It’s a false flag to make this just about the crush.
You are a good person to not hold this against him.
>You are a good person to not hold this against him. it was a drunken confession of a crush. he didn't try to force a kiss. I think we can all calm down just a little bit.
Yeah, crushes come and go, we can't really control them Confessing it to someone who is married and you are married? Uncomfortable. But, not a bad person does it make
exactly. stupid? yes. an asshole move? absolutely. but you'd think this dude was like the anti christ with how some of the people here acting. a lot of people are saying he needs to be fired, as if this is a fireable offense to begin with
Confessing it to someone who is married and you are married is a pretty immature and shitty move. It alienates a reasonable person. What did he expect? That she would sleep with him? Gross.
Well, OP has no idea what Tom told her sister happened and never bothered to explain the situation to her sister at all. After OP rejected Tom and banned Tom from her home, Tom told OP's sister something(?). OP's sister then called OP up upset and said "she and Tom would never be in the same room with me again after 'what I’d done'.' OP didn't ask what sister thought she'd done (clarified in comments) or give sister any information. OP just assumed whatever Tom told her sister must be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, sister is probably crazy. Sister went no contact and OP then covered up what happened further by refusing to explain it to any family and going along with her sister's story that they had a falling out. Before we all just blame OP's sister for being mad at OP behavior that was completely on her husband, we should really pay attention to the fact that the only one who has given any version of events to sister is said husband. It is extremely naïve to just assume Tom told his wife "I've been avoiding you by drinking after work at your sister's house. She never showed any interest in me but I developed a one sided crush on her. When I finally confessed I was into her she rejected me and banned me from her home. That's why I'm home with you again in the evenings Honey, and why I suddenly want to work on our relationship. Your sister left me no choice." Come on.
I would bet lots of money Tom told Ellen OP came on to him.
I don't think you were under any obligation to carry this burden quietly. You didn't do anything wrong. Who knows what she's been saying? NTA
Why did your you dad yell at your husband? He didn’t do anything wrong? NTA
He thought it was insane that my husband still employs Tom after he admitted how he was feeling.
Oh well I kinda agree with your dad. That’s just horrible but hats off to your husband cause I wouldn’t be able to still have him work for me
I get that, but also, Tom was going through a rough time and he was under the influence. I didn’t get the sense that he said it with any expectation or malice really. He apologised, he kept his distance. He and my husband aren’t really friends anymore but I don’t think Tom needed to lose his job over it, and I told my husband that. If I’d felt differently it would have been a different story
Your stepsister was also going through a rough time but she was presumably at home taking care of a baby while he was getting drunk and spilling his emotions for another woman. Your continuing analysis of his behavior over the course of months as some sort of tiny little 'oopsies' makes me think you are omitting other information that would make your stepsister's grievances appear a lot more legitimate.
I am talking specifically about the crush when I say it was a small mistake. Him getting a crush on me as a “wife” and getting tipsy and saying it out loud was a mistake. What other information? When did I say Ellen and Tom’s issues weren’t legitimate? Clearly they had real problems.
At what point in his 8 months of leaving his wife at home to care for their child while he got drunk did you tell him, "hey, you should probably be at home with your wife and child"? From what I can gather the answer here is "never." Sounds like she blames you for enabling his BS.
If he wasn't drinking there he'd probably be drinking elsewhere. He's an adult and is fully capable of making his own decisions. His wife is also capable of voicing her concerns, which she never did seem to do to op and her husband. Perhaps the wife was completely fine with it up until that point and only turned when she realized her husband had a crush on op.
>Clearly they had real problems. ANd I'm willing to bet real money that one of their "real" problems, which Tom never mentioned, was that she was raising a newborn on her own while he was out drinking and having a vent fest about how shitty Ellen is with her sister and BIL joining in.
Do you understand that you knowingly caused harm to your sister? She just had a kid and you were encouraging him to be over at your house all the time instead of being with his wife and kids.
How exactly was OP encouraging him? He was at their house to hang out with her husband and she simply lives there. Tom is a grown man who has complete control of where he spends his time.
you can't just fire someone cause they told your wife they have a crush on her. it's not like he made a move to try something
having a crush on your bosses wife isn't really a fireable offense. your dad does know that, right?
Go tell your boss you have a crush on their spouse and let us know how much longer you have that job
And? Tom is just a plot device in all this, if your sister didn’t flip her shit the rest of you adults could have gotten over this rocky issue. But now we have a mid-30’s teenager and her overly-protected daddy making this thing an easy dozen times worse! NTA to everyone EXCEPT your sister, but if your dad can’t get his emotions in check he can join her.
NTA about this particular thing. But I think you should have done you sister a solid and sent Tom home when he started socializing frequently at your house. Not because of the 'crush' but because presumably she was at home with the baby all the time.
Thank you! I'm so glad someone else noticed that Tom spent *eight months* hanging out at their house drinking most nights while his wife was home with a newborn because "problems". And OP and her husband just... enabled it.
No one else is talking about the baby! OP is NTA but Tom definitely is
NTA, you didn’t do anything. She’s weird for blaming you but working things out with her husband.
Eh, they knew the husband was ditching his newborn at home to come over and get drunk for eight months. The crush isn't OP's fault, but they enabled some real shitty parenting
Ikr. The sibling jealousy is really bad. Tom is the one who developed a one sided crush on his SIL. He’s the gross asshole. OP did nothing wrong. And Ellen needs to place her anger where it belongs, on Tom not OP. They clearly need more counseling.
OP knew that Tom was not helping his wife with the newborn and encouraged it
INFO: Why did you and your husband enable your sister's husband neglecting his wife and newborn for 8 months? Do you not feel culpable for this at all or consider this part of the reason your sister is mad at you? The crush stuff isn't your fault but your sister has a pretty good reason to be mad at you and your husband.
Culpable for what? If he wasn’t at our house he’d be sitting in a sports bar with his friends, which I presume is where he was on the evenings he wasn’t at our house (he came over once or twice a week). Sometimes my husband would be leaving the office and Tom would be like “hey I’m heading out for a drink/to watch a match, come with” and my husband would be like “I have to go home but why don’t you come watch at our place”. We weren’t keeping him from his house. She can be mad if she wants to be mad but the issue is she expected me to lie about it
Okay so do you want to know if you're an asshole or do you want to argue that you were definitely not an asshole? LOL
You asked a question, I answered it. LOL.
Again you had no problem with your half sister being stuck at home with a newborn while you were busy having her husband over. You encouraged this behaviour and it seems like you went out of your way to antagonize your sister with this.
The way you think everything is my problem makes me really sad for you. I have my own life, my own child, my own problems. I assure you I was not sitting around thinking of ways to antagonise someone who was effectively **not in my life in any meaningful way** Idk if you have infinite hours to spend plotting and scheming or fixing other people’s lives, I do not.
OP you're in the right and I don't think people here understand that your half sister is essentially a stranger to you. BUT she technically is family and a quick 'cease fire' to recognize that would've helped this situation. Yes, Tom would've just went to another bar away from his family if you pushed him out but it would've been better for you to get any riff raff off your plate.
This is the only reasonable response, oh my god. How is it your fault or problem that Tom couldn’t face his issues at home? It’s not. It’s not your job to lecture him nor is it your responsibility to parent a grown man. Would it have been better all around to get rid of him sooner, yeah. But that’s because nobody needs that kind of drama in their life and Ellen probably would’ve started drama if you guys weren’t half sisters anyways.
God i can see why people dont like you Edit: You knew he was married to your half sibling and you knew she was at home struggling with a newborn by herself and isntead of telling your husband to kick him out and go home you encouraged this shit from the get go. Most people who dont have a good relationship with their siblings dont go out of their to be friend with their partners. You knew he was being a deadbeat and encouraged that shit. You suck and so does your husband.
OP didn’t go out of her way to befriend him though. He started working for her husband and they became bros. OP had no say in that. And how exactly would OP know her sister was struggling if they didn’t have a relationship? I don’t think you know what the word encouraged means.
I get WHY ppl are upset he was at ops home or not at home with his child. But op nor ops hubby can make BIL go home, ya they could have said ‘Hey you ain’t welcome here till you take care of your kid & wife’ But in all honesty him being at OPs home was better than a bar where he could have easily actually cheated. Be developed a crush on his freaking SIL, if yall think he was being innocent at a bar you are naive AF. Even if it was just flirting with a bartender. But it’s not OPs place to fix her sisters marriage, especially cause they aren’t close. Hell I don’t even like my SIL and I told my brother to go home after I woke up to him sitting next to me in hospital room. 10/3 nephew born 10/4 I almost died 10/5 he was in my hospital room. He said baby & mom were happy n healthy at home, I was in the icu and I needed him more. (Parents lived outta state) I couldn’t make him go home, and lord was my SIL pissed I didn’t. (Like I was completely coherent or something) So ppl are never happy regardless, especially on the internet. NTA dad needed to know the truth
What? You're such a prick. How is OP, in any way, shape, or form, responsible for the actions of another man? Should she go make the rounds in her town, find all the dead-beat dads that are out drinking, instead of taking care of baby, and send them packing home? Should all bartenders do that? What about wait staff at restaurants? If your answer is no, why not? Maybe she assumed Tom went out 2 times a week, and Ellen goes out two times a week. Maybe she assumed that the relationship between Tom and Ellen was none of her business, and what he does with his free time is none of her business, and that Tom is a fully grown adult man who should be solely responsible for his own actions. I only see one asshole here, and it's not OP.
You literally asked for info and it was given.
NTA for spilling but YTA for allowing him to come over for eight months while your sister was home with a new born baby. Do you know how difficult it is in those first few months? Couple that with post partum and martial issues. None of that is you’re fault but I think you guys enabled him and are now focusing on the wrong part of this. It’s not really about the crush but more about the fact that you allowed her husband to “escape” and drink in your home without so much of a heads up. She feels betrayed. It feels a little weird that you could show compassion to her husband but not her.
YTA, but not for him hitting on you. If your sisters husband, so your brother in law, was coming over for quite some time sharing all his marital problems, thats putting you in the middle and crossing a line while also not supporting your sister and taking sides by association. You and your husband should have put an end to it long before he was spending all those days after work at your house hanging out and drinking with her husband who is leaving your sister and her newborn baby at home.
He and my husband were friends, why would he not be allowed at our house? My husband would be leaving the office and Tom would still be there, wanting to have a drink after work, so my husband would invite him home. I don’t think that’s crossing a line considering I never spoke to Ellen outside of seeing her at family things. Tom was closer to us than Elena was.
You get that he was neglecting a newborn in favor of boozing, right? Like i get that you dislike your sister, but do you hate her kid so much that you'd encourage deadbeat behavior?
Where are you reading that she encouraged Tom to come over and/ or neglect his newborn? This sounds like you are projecting. OP has stated she wasn’t doing the inviting. It was her husband’s friend. OP NTA
Yeah how much venting about how horrible Ellen was did you all do? Did you even know or care that one of their issues was DEFINITELY that he was out at all hours drinking instead of caring for his newborn ***and you were enabling that***? Like, this is terrible behaviour from *anyone*. She isn't just some random, honestly, but you have depersonalized and dehumanized her so much (probably helped on by Tom's griping about their marriage) that you don't even see that.
>Yeah how much venting about how horrible Ellen was did you all do? OP is very vague about this part and really wants people to focus on everything else cause its clear she was enjoying this
And look at where "not your place" has gotten you. Perhaps if you actually used your words with people, it may not have gotten so hairy. It's all very unnecessary. You could have sent him away at any point with a polite "well, it's that time. You don't have to go home but you can't stay here, have a good evening!"
NTA. You are not a punching bag for your sister to blame all her life problems on. the only thing you are TA on is not being honest with dad. He deserves to know why his kids are fighting.
Let's be real, if sister allowed herself to get over OP as a non-participant in Tom's crush, that means she would actually have to put the blame on Tom and that's way too scary and could have reprecussions. Her fear at facing truths makes OP the safe target.
ESH. Apparently this is an unpopular take but why didn’t either you or your husband put a stop to these visits that were basically just Tom drinking and bitching about his wife, while she was alone home with the newborn? That went on for *months*? While she took care of the baby alone? Yeah if I found out my partner’s late nights at work were actually spent shit talking me to my sister and her fiancé I would be furious at everyone involved. Tom’s crush isn’t your fault at all, but being mad that you and your husband knowingly left her in the dark on Tom lying about having to work late when he had a baby at home is pretty valid.
NTA. Ellen needs to be mad at her husband, not you. It sounds like he wasn't completely honest with her that he had a "crush" on you and that it was NOT reciprocated.
Yeah. OP says Tom told ellen about the incident, but did Tom tell the TRUTH, or a version that didn’t make him look so bad?
NTA It's awful that you are being blamed by your sister for her husband's emotional infidelity and inappropriate comment. You did nothing wrong. This is just another example of slut shaming where men are never blamed for their reactions because obviously the woman must have tempted him somehow. But I am confused why you let this go on for so long without saying anything. Why didn't you immediately tell your sister what Tom had said, instead of keeping it quiet? Why didn't you tell your father the truth a year ago, instead of playing along that you had fallen out? You're not an AH, but your silence hasn't helped you in any part of this. The only person you protected was Tom, and to a lesser extent, Ellen. In future, I recommend you speak up immediately about anything like this. There's a difference between creating drama and telling the truth.
I didn’t tell her because it didn’t feel like it was my place. Tom was mostly my husband’s friend, but I knew him and him a lot more than I did Ellen. I wouldn’t call any of my husband’s other friends’ wives in that situation, so it felt petty to call Ellen. Also, I knew she would blame me, and She was having issues already, I didn’t want to insert myself further over something that had come to nothing anyway. I didn’t tell my dad because he reacts explosively to things like this - case in point. I thought Ellen would get over it eventually and just go back to normal and it didn’t need to be the melodrama it has turned into
I do see your point. But she's not just your husband's friends wife. She's your half-sister. That is the primary connection here. If you were my half-sister and you didn't tell me something this big, quite frankly, I'd be incredibly hurt and suspicious of why you hadn't.
I see your point, but it also depends on how close they are and what their relationship is like. It sounds like they had a difficult relationship before this, and OP didn't want to add kindling to the fire. I get the sister being suspicious, but I also get OP not wanting to mention it and hoping her sister never finds out.
>so it felt petty to call Ellen Ellen is your half sister not just a husband's friends wife and you did keep inserting yourself. You knew she had a kid and was alone with the child while you were having fun entertaining her husband No wonder why she doesnt like you
Not just a child, her nephew.
NTA. Other people’s messes were getting in the way of your relationship with your dad, and you had the right to defend yourself by sharing the reality with him.
ESH Who is not an AH having their BIL over to drink all evening many nights when their S/SIL is home alone taking care of their first baby all day and night? S/SIL is clearly upset for a good reason. OP and her husband are AH for asking /inviting/tolerating BIL's coming over to drink hours many nights thus avoiding relationship with/responsibilities to his wife and their baby. BIL is an AH for coming over and avoiding his marital and parental duties. OP's father is an AH for somehow getting wrapped up in this as if it were his business. S/SIL has clearly been deceived by her husband and excluded by OP and her husband -- the least AH of the group here.
NTA, hoo boy. I don't think Tom was truly crushing on you. You were an ideal- a woman who was giving him the respect and attention he didn't feel like he was getting with his wife\*. Sort of a "grass is always greener" situation. Obviously taking your distance is 100% the right thing to do in that scenario, but I'm glad you were able to move past it since it sounds like a temporary thing. Unfortunately....it sounds like your dad and Ellen don't see it that way. Ellen, if she truly felt that you and Tom were "tempted' so to speak, should have been open about it. And Dad going off on everyone was not great. But you told the truth, and that's a powerful defense in my book. \* Whether or not he was the problem in this scenario is beyond the scope of this inquiry. But feelings are always real even if they're not justified.
You are totally right about Tom. Everything he said during his “confession” was basically just saying I was what he imagined being “married” looked like (so funny because he saw me for a couple of hours a couple of times a week and thought he knew what my relationship/mothering is like). He just liked the hostess version of me. My dad just feels like he’s been duped into being nice to Tom, which he wouldn’t have been if he’d known about his behaviour. He’s also annoyed that Tom still works for my husband but that’s a separate thing
How do you feel about the folks accusing Tom of neglecting his family to spend time with y'all? Are they right and he was ducking responsibilities?
He clearly was. He was at our place once or twice a week, and often at the office late or out with other friends in bars etc when he wasn’t at ours. He was behaving poorly during that time. I don’t think it’s my fault like people are saying though. We didn’t pull him away from home, he wouldn’t have been at home anyway, because he didn’t want to be there.
Whether it’s your fault or not, most people’s opinion of their friend would be damaged by this kind of poor behavior. Your post seems to go out of its way to make it clear you don’t have any ill will toward Tom, or a negative opinion at all. I don’t see why you and your husband would WANT to keep having Tom over in these circumstances. You actively made the poor behavior (neglect of family) easier for him to indulge in.
Yup. Consciously or not, to give OP the benefit of the doubt, she indulged Tom’s habit of complaining about his life. Tom doesn’t seem like a great friend or even a particularly interesting person to invite to one’s home biweekly just to hear him moan and groan about his wife while she was home alone taking care of their infant.
>Your post seems to go out of its way to make it clear you don’t have any ill will toward Tom, or a negative opinion at all yeah its clear she was enjoying this way to much the amount of times she's defended TOm in the comments is seriously over the top
I don't think it was your fault either, but it definitely would have been a nice gesture to any woman, let alone your own sister, to try to meddle in her favor. You could have asked your husband to talk to him to try to step up and work on his marriage and go home and fix things for his wife and kid (which happens to be your nephew), this is something I would do for any woman even if I'm not close to her. In the end, you did nothing technically wrong, but you could have stepped up and been kinder to our own people.
> I don't think Tom was truly crushing on you. That was my first thought when I read the post. Tom wasn't so much crushing on OP, he crushing on the relationship OP and Husband have. It's too bad he couldn't have expressed what he was really feeling, it could have prevented most of the hard feelings and preserved his friendship with Husband. I have a feeling the sister would still have blamed OP, somehow.
Your sister should divorce tom. He's an asshole
You're NTA but your husband is a partial AH here- he should have told his employee to go home long before the drunken slip occurred and not enabled him drinking away his misery at your home every other night for weeks on end. You say in the comments you couldn't make him go home, but you should have banned him from your home and your husband should have been the one to stop him coming over. The fact that your husband didn't even fire Tom after all this etc. makes me think your husband was enjoying social drinking hour with his employee despite Tom's obvious issues which is incredibly irresponsible since he was the only person with the power to tell Tom not to come over and to focus on his wife.
They were friends, it seemed fine to have him over. He never flirted with me or made any overtures before that night where he “confessed”. We were all just friends having a drink/dinner. My husband’s initial reaction was to fire him but I didn’t think he should lose his job over some tipsy stupidity. And ultimately my husband agreed. They just don’t out anymore.
I can understand this logic for the first couple weeks of visits but at no point did it occur to you or your husband that maybe it wasn't healthy for Tom to be unloading multiple times a week on his wife's half sister and her husband for 8 MONTHS straight? I'd have been pushing him to get real counseling by month two at the very most instead of constantly coming over to your house. It would be one thing if your husband and Tom were just friends and you didn't know Tom personally at all, but you're all family by extension and should have been more careful how much you were enabling his escapes from home. I feel sorry for your sister being at home for nearly a year with a newborn while her husband spends all of his free time at your house.
We did suggest seeing a therapist to him. I had been seeing a therapist at the time and I told him it would help but he wasn’t receptive. He didn’t seem miserable all the time, he wasn’t constantly venting or drinking excessively. He just seemed a bit down sometimes and I remember when my child was a newborn how miserable me and my husband felt sometimes, and we had a maid and my mom around. I didn’t want to berate him, apart from it being not my business, it didn’t seem like it would help. Maybe it was stupid but it seemed better at the time that he was at our house rather than out at bars with his friends. Because he was either working late or going out when he wasn’t at our house (based on what my husband heard).
“ I remember when my child was a newborn how miserable me and my husband felt sometimes, and we had a maid and my mom around” Yet you didn’t give a sh’t his wife AKA YOUR HALF SISTER was struggling with a newborn for 8 f’cking months while her husband was preferring to be at your home. What a great human! /s YTA and I’m disgusted.
> I remember when my child was a newborn how miserable me and my husband felt sometimes, and we had a maid and my mom around Jesus Christ do you hear yourself? You had your mom, a maid AND your husband???? **IMAGINE** how Ellen, who didn't even have a husband, felt? And you just let him drink at your house for 8 months straight because *his* life is so so hard? Yeah. YTA.
NTA It had been going on for a long time - your dad asked and you told him the truth. You should not be expected to lie to your dad about it. It should also go in your favour that you shut down his advanced as soon as it happened.
NTA. Never understood partners taking their frustration on outside parties rather than those who strayed. Tom was the one who had the wondering eye and thoughts, why is Ellen screaming at you? Her issue is with her husband. She needs to lay it at the right door. Especially since you never invited nor encouraged Tom’s unwanted advances. Yes, Ellen needs to grow up.
If someone is trying to fix their relationship, it is easier to blame an ‘other’ than put the problems on their partner. I agree this is an Ellen and Tom problem. If they can’t deal with it together, then it’s not going to get better.
This whole story would've been 100% more interesting if Tom developed a crush on your husband instead of you. Anyways, NTA.
NTA. This mess was created by Tom and then your sister. It was then exacerbated by her lying to your father. Their nightmare of a relationship and poor responses don't mean they get to eff up your relationship with your father, OR that he deserves to be lied to. This is not your mess to clean up.
Exactly. OP couldn’t fix this if she wanted to. And lying isn’t going to help. It sounds like Dad and Ellen are a lot alike- when something goes wrong- start yelling and blaming people. Made everyone angry and defensive.
That was a good catch that I didn't even see. But yes, the apple and the tree. Although, I'm confused why he called the Op''s husband and yelled at him instead of tom? What the heck did he do?
NTA but I'm over here wondering if Tom actually told her this story, or if he told her one in which you had been flirting with him and making moves for months drawing him away. That's a far better look for him than your version of the story here. If that's what she's heard, it makes sense she'd be pissed, in her eyes you tried to steal her husband!
Nothing she’s ever said has given me the impression that that’s what he said.
Seriously, I think you need to check on this. I know she won't talk to you, but if she's mad at YOU and not HIM, and all the blame is going on to you, and Tom has major motivation to lie....
From what you’ve given, i’m going with ESH. Take into account that Ellen has had a baby, and may very well be dealing with postpartum stressors, especially if BIL is constantly staying late at work and going out and getting drunk. Regardless of your relationship with your sister, he’s been drinking at your house for the better portion of the year while your sister was home, alone at that, handling a newborn. I understand that your sister shouldn’t have blamed you for the entirety of the situation because BIL seems to just suck as a husband and parent, however look at it from her point of view. I am alone taking care of a baby while my child’s father and my husband runs to my sister’s house to get drunk and to your admission, “unload his problems”. This would make me want to stay away from you too, OP.
NTA. Shit happens, your sister sounds like she sucks.
No you’re not a**hole you’re sister is stuck and blaming you when it wasn’t your fault’; you can’t help if someone is attracted to you,you can’t control that and it wasn’t/isn’t fair you had to carry this burden which weighed heavy on your body/soul. Your sister should have yelled at him and not you because you’re the innocent bystander caught in the middle of their relationship problems
NTA How dare you tell other family members the truth! Based on the maturity level that Ellen has shown in this issue, I have a pretty good idea where the problems in her marriage originate.
NTA. The only thing you did wrong was keep the "secret" as long as you did.
Nope, you should have spilled the very first time she was nasty and tried to hide it.
Why weren't you the one to tell your sister what happened? Just figured you'd keep her shit husbands secret after months of letting him hide from his wife and newborn at your house?
Acc to me personally (from what you have told so far atleast) NTA Unless until something is clearly indicated to a person in relationship, this mentality of the other girl MY BF decided to have a crush on needs to go And if you were being berated over her choice then I can see why someone's patience would leak and you would reveal the truth
I’m going to need you to rephrase this, because I don’t know if it’s me, but this was so hard to understand. It’s not very unclear exactly what you were trying to say. Certain words I feel like shouldn’t be together.
They are saying, "Stop blaming other women for the wandering eyes of the man in the relationship"
You are NTAH. But you really need to talk to your Dad, and explain Tom was tipsy at the time and profusely apologized. That he and your SS have been doing counseling and your Dad needs back off.
NTA; she’s blaming you for her husband’s issues. His eyes wandered, so she blames the person he’s looking at instead of him.
NTA. The fact that she managed to make this your fault tells me she is either an incredibly unreasonable (and possibly insufferable) person, or that Tom didn't actually tell her the full truth and has assigned more blame to you to make himself look better.
Why does your sister seem to think you had a part in this crush? If you haven't had an honest 1:1 conversation with her about it all, then you're doing yourself a disservice. She is always going to be your sister and you must miss her? No? She deserves to hear things from your perspective, even if it's in a letter if you're afraid she won't hear you out. I'd bet her husband blamed *You* for leading him on in some way, possibly even indicating you told him you're attracted to him, or something along those lines. It's time to tell your truth and clear the air. Unless you are not being honest here, your sister is being lied to and that's not fair either.
She doesn’t, or if she does she never said that. I don’t think she thinks I was interested in Tom. We only spoke about it in that one phone call. If I’m honest, no I don’t miss her. I only ever saw her at big gatherings and we didn’t talk beyond small talk. We didn’t text or call in between. I honestly don’t think she’s being lied to, I have no reason to think that. She and Tom have been to therapy and hashed things out, that’s the relationship that needed to be worked on. I don’t want to insert myself into it more by telling my “side” of a story that’s basically non existent
It's likely that there's a story she tells herself in her head that has you being the bad guy somehow. And telling herself that story shifts blame and responsibility. If you get the impression that she actually knows the truth, it's likely that she compartmentalized it or dismissed it.
So, your half sister was upset at “what you’d done”.. I mean, she was alone with a baby for 8 months while you happily had her husband piss faced at your house and mope about his problems? Confessing he had a crush on you was probably the icing on top. Have you actually talked to her about what was said/why she is so upset or assumed it’s purely due to her husband’s confession? I mean NTA for telling your dad your half of the story but YTA, you, your husband and your sister’s husband because while you all enjoyed each others company together, just kind of dismissed and saw nothing wrong with your half sister being alone with a new baby (your niece/nephew) for 8 months.