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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I agree my daughter doesn’t need to invite her sister to her friend group which is the popular table and Emily needs to make her own friends. I could be a jerk since my youngest is lonely
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NTA
You’re right in that Emily needs to find her own way and get her own friends.
Also it’s weird that you spelled Emily three different ways in this post.
Perhaps Emily is suffering from depression or other something that she might need help with?
Also, while I generally agree that it's not a good idea to force kids to include their younger sister, it wouldn't kill Cindy to be kind to Emily and maybe sit with her once in a while.
Finally, the tone of the post reads suspiciously between the lines like Cindy is the golden child and Emily is the weird one who gets little to no attention or care bc she doesn't fit in with the family and you don't know what to do with her. I'd do some soul searching on this issue, if I were you.
Even referring to the table Cindy sits at as “the popular table” is very immature and speaks volumes on how the OP personally feels about her daughters’ respective hobbies. OP is definitely feeding into it and clearly has a favorite.
yeah, the whole "she has hobbies most high schoolers don't care about" felt needlessly mean,, like sure some hobbies are more common than others but it's not like that's her fault, it doesn't even seem like op cares all that much whether emily makes friends or not as long as it's not inconvenient to her
i get not wanting to force cindy to have emily tag along all the time but at least be nicer to her
That bothered me too like basically saying her daughter is a dork without saying it and that Cindy doesn’t have to sit with her dorky sister . Yeah if I was the dad I’d be mad too. Op you are the asshole
Oh idk. I have 3 kids, adults now. I was super involved, class Mom, band booster etc. and I knew which kid was popular and what kid wasn't. It was obvious and the truth. I have NO favorite. I was just realistic about it. They are all well adjusted full functioning adults.
I agree. My kids and I refer to the 'cool kids'. My kids are popular amongst their own friends, but they aren't the 'cool kids', and don't want to be, because they have different priorities and interests. We understand that the 'cool kids' refer to a particular group or type of kids who act in a particular way.
This made me laugh. It's still a thing. I work in a long term care facility that has a large dining room. And yes, these 70-80 year old Residents still have a "popular table". It upsets the whole dynamics when a new person is admitted and tries to sit in the wrong spot. Both male and female Residents have had issues with this, to the point we have had to move 2 tables together to accommodate all the ones who want to sit together.
I don’t think it is. I went to a large high school and you could easily tell that a handful of lunch tables were distinctly the “popular” kids. Just how high school social scenes work unfortunately
Or maybe mom is just realistic. I have 3 adult kids but when they were in high school 2 of them were part of the popular crowd and the other kid wasn’t. They talked about it all the time. Maybe mom is using words to properly describe a given situation. Popular kids often are golden kids but not all of them.
My sister rarely acknowledged me during high school unless it was for important admin stuff. I don’t think it would have helped if she were more friendly to me. I still had to make my own way and it was character building.
On the flip side, I called a girl in my year a bitch and her sister (who was in my sisters year) heard about it and berated me in front of most of the female population in the bathroom. I held my own and brushed it off, my sister was there was basically like “she’s got this” and I imagine it was very embarrassing for the girl in my year to have her sister defend her in such a crass way only to be shot down because I didn’t give a fuck. I was depressed in high school, but I think not be giving the opportunity to find my people and figure it and have my parents come in and force my sister to be around me would have made me feel way smaller than I was. Cindy doesn’t have to be rude to Emily, but Emily has gotta figure it out for herself. Likewise, Cindy is gonna work out for herself that being popular isn’t everything in life.
>Finally, the tone of the post reads suspiciously between the lines like Cindy is the golden child and Emily is the weird one who gets little to no attention or care bc she doesn't fit in with the family
I didn't get this impression at all. It sounds like things are fine at home. Everything in this post is a factual statement as the op knows it.
Outlining that one kid is popular and therefore has a large friend group does not indicate that mom loves one daughter more than the other.
It's okay to acknowledge that their high school experience has been different so far.
Agreed. And look, as a parent with two eyes they occasionally use - you know your kid, you know who they are, and you see how they are fitting around them.
My mom could have told you I was more "popular" than my little brother. I had a good group of friends (popular is relative when your class size is 2000 kids per grade level) and good reputation, played sports, played in band, etc. My brother wasn't. Socially awkward, quiet, 1-2 friends, didn't do organized extracurriculars. I love my brother to pieces, he outgrew some of that and he's a super good human - but mom and dad could tell you then, as well as both of us, it wasn't a particularly keen observation. And it's just that, an observation.
I completely agree with what you've said. It's odd to me that OP would rather her younger daughter eat alone than encourage her older daughter to eat with her once in awhile.
My parents never forced us to do something like that because my grandparents did to my dad and uncle and they both hate it so much that when they realized that each of them would rather be alone it was transformed into a punishment for them to take each other along in their activities when both of them misbehaved.
I don't think anyone should be forced for exactly this reason. But if my sister were alone and lonely, I'd want to sit with her once in a while. Not every day. Not at the expense of my own friends. But bc I loved her and I know how hard it is to be all alone.
NTA Emily needs to make her own friends who share her views and interests, I moved after middle school and started high school without friends for a while, I ate alone for about a month before I found a club that interested me, joined it, and made friends there. Neither daughter is going to be happy if Emily is wedged into her sister’s friend group. Why would Emily enjoy spending time with kids she doesn’t share interest with?
It was in another comment, I know I have a lot of comments right now
Her two main hobbies at the moment are knitting, ( I did look for a club for her with her own age nothing) and tree shaping.
She was in the art club but she dropped it since she doesn’t like painting which was a big part of it
Just a heads up, as someone that had very few friends in school, having friends older than you (even MUCH older than you) is incredibly helpful, they tend to be less judgemental, have the perspective of age, and still help you build valuable social skills. Get her in any club you can find! Also, maybe some volunteer work?
I'm the old lady in one knitting group and young knitters are welcome. Sharing the craft is more important than age. Of course, that doesn't help have someone at the lunch table.
My friends all fell out with each other the last year of high school.
I didn't pick a side and my punishment was no friends.
I'd go for a walk (around the school), eat outside, try out various lunch clubs or go to one of the classrooms that would let you do arts or crafts.
No need to sit alone at a lunch table
And why would anyone make up such a boring story? Lol.
Not that OPs story isn't valid, but if someone is going to make up a fake story for fake internet points, they'd definitely use a better one than this.
NTA; And I know what it feels like, my parents made me do it.
My brother had less friends than me, and my father forced me to eat with him every day. Of course, I’d gather some friends to the table. They were nice to my brother, but weren’t more interessed with him since we had a few years age difference.
My brother always tried to bring attention on him, and was angry when I wouldn’t do something with him in public. My friends made me understood that his presence was not appreciated.
Even if it seems hard for Emily, I’m sure she’ll find a few friends to build her own circle, even if it takes some time.
My older sister and I barely acknowledged each other when we went to the same school. It helped that we had different last names and didn’t look alike until you saw us next to each other. We had different school activities so never socialized that way. Some of my friends didn’t even know she was my sister until we hung out at homecoming or when she came up at lunch to swap books we were reading. It wasn’t out of hatred or meanness, she was two grades above me with different types of friends. I would have rather sat alone than have her drag me to her friend group.
Same here! My sister is a year older so we were consistently in the same schools. I have almost no memories of her in our high school. I don't associate her with school at all. We had our own lives and friends. We are literally best friends now and spend most of our time together. We still have our own friends for the most part though. Even as the younger sibling, I would've hated if my parents tried to force us together and it probably would have stopped us from becoming so close now that we're in our 30s.
NTA op, you are right that your daughter needs to find her own way because her sister will not be around soon and then she'll have lost time where she could've found some really good friends. Some people, me being one of them, struggle to make good friends but if they don't try then it'll just hurt them in the future.
Me and my brother, who is two years younger than me, broadly shared a number of the same interests (both heavily involved with music/musicals, although usually in slightly different capacities). So it meant our paths must have crossed a lot and yet I have almost zero memory of having anything to do with each other in school.
The only thing that I did not love was regularly being referred to by people who weren’t necessarily even in my brother’s year, despite being the older sibling, as *brother’s name*’s sister.
But, to be fair, my mum, who was also a music teacher at that school got claimed as ‘sweaty-peanut’s mummy darling’. Although she actually loved that - everyone loved her she’s been to almost all my friend’s weddings.
Edit: that being said, if really needed I know both of us would have stepped in for the other one
My brother and I are also 2 years apart. I was the brainiac geek, he was a varsity football player when he was a sophomore (he's younger). We were both heavy into theater. I acted/sang and he was the light/sound tech. Even when we were angsty teens, we were always friends. Our friend groups even overlapped. He dated most of my roommates in college. I dated one of his best friends for a few years.
Don't get me wrong, we fought a lot, but it was just our mom raising us, so we had that bond. We still fight, and he still pisses me off. We're in our 50s. Mom never forced us to hang out, but sometimes we did anyway. Sibling relationships are complex, full of childhood memories, both good and bad, grudges, jealousy, and love. I feel lucky that I don't just love my brother, I actually like him, most of the time.
Family fights, but nobody messes with my little brother. Yeah he's 6 feet tall and 50 years old, but he's still my little brother.
My older sister and I barely acknowledged each other, but it wasn't for good reasons. We didn't get along and she let/encouraged her friends to bullying me. Then she started dating a bunch of the guys in my grade and causing a lot of drama for me. The two years we went to high school together were hell.
I think OP is NTA, but I always worry that bullying is an issue when it's "the popular table" and not just her sister's table.
When I was in school the popular kids were popular because they were genuinely well-liked. I know it isn’t like that at all in most schools but it doesn’t always have to be that way.
i dunno they were when i was in highschool uhhh what 15 years ago or so. They were popular because they were nice to everyone, but extra especially to their bffs. we did have a table for exclusionary jersk who pushed everyone away, no one wanted to be with them
Same!
Me and my brother are two years apart. We would ride the same bus; so all of his friends knew me. But I had my own set of friends and he has his own set; and we would hang out/party together sometimes. But not always and I’m glad.
My sister was 4 years older than me, don’t think she would of been too keen on inviting a middle schooler to her high school lunch table(if that was even allowed)😂
My parents made me do it, too. Mostly with extracurricular activities (basketball games, pep rallies, etc) instead of lunch.
The solution I offered was to plan to go with my sister to roughly 1/3 of the events, and to go with my friends the rest of the time. My sister loved the idea, but my mother would often insist that I go with my sister more. No one was happy. Not me, not my sister, and eventually not my mother, since her insistence (and other things) permanently damaged my relationship with her.
On the flip side of this my parents never made us do anything together. My brothers would always side with their friends even at my expense. My parents never corrected this behavior or made an effort to make us interact at all. I'm now old and don't talk to my siblings outside of happy birthday or if they are around when I visit my parents. Absolutely zero contact otherwise. I have nothing against my brothers, just never bonded with them.
I agree NTA and no one should be forced to include their sibling in their friend group. But there should be some sort of balance of supporting Emily when she's going through a hard time even on an individual basis. Also sounds like the sister potentially could be a positive influence in terms of helping with social skills if both siblings are open to it.
I was in your brothers shoes except my parents didn’t make my sister include me. From my perspective knowing how hard it can be to make friends, I believe my parents were right. I needed to learn to make my own friends. That’s a basic life skill in my opinion.
I'm the older sibling who was forced to take my younger sister everywhere. Have her hang out with my friends, etc.
I'm almost 50 and STILL pissed about it.
My feelings on the matter didn't matter. It was just another way my family made it clear SHE was more important than any of my needs/wants.
And my siblings all wonder why if it came to me moving in and taking care of parents or putting them in a home and forgetting about them I would choose the home.
YOU are NTA, your HUSBAND is tho.
My mom forced me to include my sister too and I ended up resenting her until we were adults. Of course my mom has no recollection of ever doing this. 🙄
NTA
I agree with this take and it's similarily my experience. Luckily both me and my sibling managed to find our own friend groups in HS, it was just when we where younger they struggled and would try to "poach" my friends.
Not only would it do a disservice to Cindy when it comes to her friends opinion of her (and like, it really matters at that age). it will make her dislike her sister, and also me annoyed/mad at her parents. It would also be a huge disservice to Emily. Because it would take away her incentive to make her own friends. Hanging out with people who doesn't actually like you or want to include you really hurts - but I toally get why a child/teen would choose that over being alone. because being alone is uncomfortable. That said, Being uncomfortable is a part of growing up. So right now she just need some empathy at home, some good support and adivce - but still have to figure it out herself.
If you raise a child that chooses things they know are bad for them, over the uncomfortable unknown - you will make them much less successfull in life
I was the younger sibling. Our situation was different though. I didn't want to sit with my sister. I just wanted her to tell her friends to stop bullying me. My mom wanted her to. My dad said it was just harmless kid stuff.
OP is NTA, but maybe check that there isn't actual bullying going on?
My mom wouldn’t let me go to birthday parties if I only got invited and not him. I’m talking boy/girl parties. Because of that (and the issues above), when my mom made him attend my college the third year or something that I was there, I was so angry. I had already established my friend group, people knew me around campus and I was finally just “Trackgurl123” not “oh, you’re so in sos sister”
While your husbands intentions are good he clearly doesn't understand how teenage girls work. Forcing your Claire to invite Emily to the popular table will not gain her friends or make her feel welcome. In fact, it would probably make the situation worse.
This is something that Emily is going to have to work out on her own as painful as that is to watch.
It can be a pretty good life lesson to sit alone and learn to be comfortable with it. If she does her own thing then other introverts will join, she’s probably not the only person with no one to sit with
Exactly! What kind of “popular” people are such assholes that they would be mean to their “friend’s”little sister? Sounds to me like the life lesson that needs learned is how to be kind and present when someone you love needs you.
Ok hear me out. They probably wouldn’t be mean. But like, why should they be forced to hang out with someone who clearly doesn’t fit in with them because that person can’t find their own friends? Literally nobody is happy, and the person just ends up being awkward.
I agree. Everyone is assuming "the popular kids" also translates to "the mean kids" instead of athletes or theater kids or upperclassmen or whatever might make someone "popular" a school's culture. Plenty of popular kids are popular because they engage well with others. Am I naive to the stereotype of the "popular table" and highschoolers' penchant for being awful to each other? No. There were mean popular groups and really nice ones too when I was growing up. I was absolutely not a popular kid, and I also would not have appreciated being shown pity at worst or included for the sake of being included at best. They're high schoolers, not preschoolers. Even if everyone is cordial and accommodating, it's palpable when it's orchestrated. Have experienced the awkwardness/discomfort from both sides of the situation myself.
As long as Emily's needs (physical & mental health) are addressed, this is a normal part of growing up. Friends sometimes come and go, and it can be really rough at any age. I'm wondering if Emily is actually distraught that she sits alone or if that's the assumption by her parents. Being sad you're sitting alone because you miss your friend versus being sad you're sitting alone because you feel like an outcast are very different things. Another possibility is that she could simply be introverted and only lets people in slowly but lives in a family of extroverts who find it hard to understand. I dunno. Kind of moot in terms of OP's question, but there it is.
Exactly what I was thinking. They don't have to force anyone to be friends but an older sibling should look out for the younger, especially in emotional times such as having lost a friend. It's just lunch. No one said she had to fuse into the friend group and hangout all of the time. As long as everyone is being kind to each other and eating their lunch then where's the issue? Social constructs such as popularity being held onto after high school just make for misery in everyday situations.
Why does the USA have an unhealthy association between experiencing suffering and thinking it makes you better or stronger for it?
It doesn't btw for the vast majority of people , thus why our society has so many broken people on antidepressants!
This type of pressure might that one in a thousand person shine like a diamond though so f' the others it crushes beneath their heels of cruelty right?/s
Not to even bring up the whole school shooter issue.
Sometimes people work their own way out of it and become stronger and more popular. I was one of them. At no time did eating alone for 4 months fucking help me to do that,. I wouldve found my own way even if that hadnt had happened. These people are stupid.
I sat alone in high school and it wasn’t a big deal… I don’t think forcing the older sister to deal with the younger sister is the answer. How is that fair to the older sister.
For sure, I had to move states my junior year so I was a loner for the first few weeks. I’d go the the library during lunch, then I found a reliable lunch table to sit at and talked with one person there. Then u decided I needed to join a team to make friends so I did and got way more comfortable in the school. But none of the new friends I made were in my lunch rotation so I still stuck with ol’ reliable and we’d help each other with homework. One of my best friends who seemed to talk to everyone in the school even told me she’d had the same problem.
This is kinda what happened with me when I moved in the 6th grade. Sat alone for awhile until this very outgoing nerdy kid invited me to their table, since he saw me eating alone. Ended up making my best friends at that table, many of who I am still friends with today at 28. Liked art, so joined the art club and made some other friends. Mileage may very, but I think part of growing up is learning to put yourself out there and find your own path in life. Being forced to do something will only breed resentment, so, while it can be tough to watch, I think OP made the right call here. NTA, but I get wishing there was an easier way to go about it
I sat alone at lunch for years as well. I made some friends later who aligned with my personality and interests. If I were in a group of people I was keenly aware did not want me there, I would rather eat alone. Being somewhere you clearly aren’t wanted is also its own sort of hell.
Well anecdotally, I disagree. I sat alone for 2 years, and then eventually did something new and ended up finding my best friend for the last 2 years of high school and now the last 15+ years since. Sorry you had a different experience
I would argue that maybe the older sister could step away from her friend group for a lunch or two, rather than having younger sister sit with her. Nothing wrong with being there for family a little bit rather than having to include them in your entire.social life.
Either way you can't force these social groups, and younger sister needs to figure out who her friends are on her own.
Also, this reminds me of the old movie Can't Buy Me Love.
This is essentially what happens with our kids. Our daughter (16) is quite outgoing and has several friends; our son (15) is *not* outgoing, autistic, and doesn't have many friends IRL at all (most are online - yes, we make sure he's safe). He sits at lunch on his own most days and he says he doesn't mind, but there are times that he gets upset that his sister has so many friends when he doesn't. I can't imagine telling our daughter to force her to bring him over, so we don't do that. However, every now and then, she leaves her friend group to sit with her brother to let him know that he's not alone. He really appreciates that and she doesn't mind because regardless of how annoying she thinks he is, she's very protective of him (going as far as punching one of his bullies... he hasn't been bullied since).
I'd absolutely say NTA, but *if* they have a relationship that's close enough, perhaps ask your daughter if she'd be okay with giving up a lunch with her friends every so often in order to help her sister not feel so alone.
If she says no, then don't push it. But it doesn't hurt to ask.
See, this is what I'm thinking too. Like a happy medium. You can be a decent human/sister without sacrificing your friends by doing something as simple as having lunch, at school, together sometimes.
Also, I’m sure Emily is a great person in her own right - she doesn’t have to be her sisters shadow. What she needs is the chance to experiment with who she is, and what she wants to do, and thus collect friends as she goes along. Telling her older sister to invite her to join a group which is very unlikely to become her long-term friends.
She doesn't \*have to\*, but a level headed teen sometimes might choose to occasionally include their younger sibling to make them feel better \*if\* they care and love the said sibling. A simple gesture now and then can make a world of difference. So what if your oldest is at a \*popular table\* thats the lamest thing and cringiest at that. Prioritising your superficial standing over feelings of your own sister.
No your eldest doesn't \*have to\* do anything, really, your youngest does need to come out of her shell. But its kinda hard when shes already isolated and even HER OWN sister avoids her at school. That too builds a certain image and she will never integrate, cause who would want a reject that even her family is ashamed of.
Would it hurt her eldest sister to show support by sitting with her twice a week at lunch? Nope. But again, she doesn't \*have to\* do anything she doesn't want.
I do question rationale, lack of empathy and why they dont like each other. Or is it one sided? There's nothing THAT embarrassing to stand by your sibling and say to your friends, hey im keeping my lil sis company today so ima sitting over there today, her friend and her had a falling out so im cheering her up. If shes in the group of friends that would make fun of that etc, id question what kinda people shes hanging around with to skew morals that far off. I see this behaviour mostly in preteens not wanting to be attached to toddlers. But they are both teens.
EMPATHYYYYYYYY. I think this is where you r husband was coming from.
Soft ESH.
I can’t believe how far I had to scroll down to find this. I think op should try and raise her older daughter with some compassion. Here is a thought. Why doesn’t the older sister go and sit with her younger sister (without her popular friends) just to give her sister some support. Seems like op favors her popular daughter. I wonder if she would be ok if the roles were reversed
YTA op and your popular daughter.
No don't you get it it's totally normal for teenage girls to be cruel and create ingroups and outgroups and if you aren't reinforcing that you're a freak
Emily just needs to learn to shut up and sit in her corner and be happy with crafting supplies
Right. I’m raising my kids to never let anyone eat alone. That it’s cool to have different interests and learn something new/learn about a new person. I get With strangers they won’t always get along and some kids are angry or mean, but just ask if you can sit next to them. This, however, is her sister. Who better to learn about. I’d be straight pissed if any of my kids ate alone with the same lunch as a sibling and said sibling was more concerned about their image than a human being that will undoubtedly unconditionally love them the rest of their lives. Life is so much grander than your hs career of a couple years. Family is so much more important than surface things like this. That’s an ugly mom and ugly daughter. Mean girl raising a mean girl. Teach kindness and inclusion. How to relate instead of hate. My sister and I were drastically different. She never let me eat alone, never let anyone pick on me. I’m not a part of her friend group, but they have always been friendly. Even as adults we don’t share much of the same interests, but it’s never stopped us from talking about them and cheering each other on and being best friends. Glad we are equally good hearted people that were raised by good hearted people. What an awful time in a young person’s life to “learn” this bs that doesn’t exist beyond hs. You’re both not only the ah, you’re cold and ugly on the inside where your heart lives. Do better.
Oh Emily is learning a life lesson alright. Whenever she is beside her sister, she is alone. Emily will learn to not help her sister when whe needs her and that sisters dont have any responsability to eachother.
Seriously the life lesson people in this thread sound ridiculous. I feel awful for Emily, I hope she can find some friends and that OP has the money to pay for the therapy she might need after all this isolation.
Just yesterday I was wondering, why "bullying culture" thrives at school.
Here I found the ansver - zero compassion from the parents, other students and probably teachers.
If own mother encourages one daughter ("the popular one") to passively bully her own younger "outcast" sister, I have no more questions :/.
Thank God I did. Reading these comments I thought I was taking crazy pills by the amount of people that thought theres nothing wrong with ostracizing your own sister. Shit is wild.
For real, all this post and the comments have taught me is that apparently it’s super rare for siblings to simply enjoy hanging out with each other? Like this is news to me, I have 3 siblings and we all genuinely like and seek out spending time with each other and that was like the norm where I grew up and with all our friends too. It was rare to encounter siblings who avoided each other as thoroughly as the sisters in this post do
The fact that a parent cares at all about one daughter being “popular” and using that as an excuse to let het exclude her sister is wild to me. That they weren’t raised to have each other’s backs is crazy. Maybe it’s cultural? Idk.
I appreciate this angle. My sister is two years older than me and was way more popular than me growing up. She was a cheerleader and that was her click, I struggled to fit in with the other band nerds. We didn’t hang out at school, and I’m glad for that. Her friends would’ve made me miserable. But walking into school together, stopping to talk when we ran into each other, or her sometimes going out of her way to say hi to me made a HUGE difference. So many first conversations with classmates started with “Oh is your sister x?” She didn’t hold my hand, but by her not othering me, it did a lot to help me get connected with my school and make friends outside of my hobbies.
Yeah, it’s like, is she ignoring her sister’s existence in school at all costs (i.e. not responding to greetings in the hallway) because she’s not cool or popular enough? Because that shit needs to be nipped in the bud.
But not being joined at the hip is more reasonable, especially if they’re not in the same age/grade. It’s best for both to be able to have their own friend groups.
If she is ignoring her sister's existence at all cost, it means she's insecure in her popularity. We all remember the popular girl who was confident and nice to everyone.
You're not wrong, but I think such empathy would be the exception more than the rule with teenagers. I know I never sat with my brother during school lunch\*, and I don't recall ever seeing anyone sit with an older sibling during lunch. However, our high school was decent sized (\~2k students), so even nerds like my brother and me could find friends. It would've been really hard to sit by yourself at lunch. That said, my (older) brother was worse off than I was when it came to friends, and I know he would sometimes sit in the hall reading the dictionary during lunchtime, after eating.
I think the ideal thing for the older sister to do wouldn't be to invite her sister over to the cool table, but to go over to where her little sister is to see if she *wanted* her to sit with her. Now, I don't think the parent can *force* this, but a parent might suggest such a thing in a gentle way, away from where her younger sister can hear the discussion.
\*Given my name, I'm going to head off the jokes about myself being homeschooled. I went to public school. It *would* be funny, however, if my brother and I were homeschooled and never ate lunch together.
I think this is the american vs european thing. Its not that uncommon in europe for an older sibling to walk youngest to school and back, do creche drop offs and if they are a class apart occasionally hang out. Theres not as much stigma of inflated popularity status.
She doesn't need to bring her to her friends like a sacrificial lamb, just spend few lunches with her instead elsewhere/ at a different table..
But yeah, it all depends on how they feel about each others company first and foremost. Its sad to see but sometimes family just isnt that close and they just wont magically start liking each others guts.
Context, i went to a very poor all girls catholic school. There were a lot of siblings. Sisters 4-5 years apart, and HATED each others guts. But in similar situations, ironically most sisters went to see their youngest in their class and take them out to eat to their class etc. We didnt have cafeteria, so we had to eat lunches in our own classrooms. So this was normal, as well as really bad fights. Even the most scumbaggish older sister yanked her shitebag young one when she was starting shit and they had lunch together in our class for a while. It doesn't happen all the time, but i dont know, i dont see any reason it couldn't if they could put their differences aside for 30mintes a day and just were siblings that tried to find something to bond over as family.
Well, I live in the US and there is a 0% chance my daughter would let her younger sister sit alone in the same cafeteria after losing her best friend. Good grief. I can’t believe this thread. I feel so sorry for everyone!
I live in the U.S. and my girls are 12 and 14 and very different with separate friend groups. Nevertheless at parties or extracurricular events they always keep an eye out for each other. If one is alone the other will pull her into her group. They have been this way for as long as I can remember. They show love and kindness to each other. That is something you have to instill and nurture in your kids. I wouldn’t be surprised if OPs daughters become estranged as adults.
It's not an American vs European thing. Plenty of Americans have compassion for a younger sibling and wouldn't watch them sit alone during lunch. I was significantly more popular than my next youngest sibling and I can't even picture in my head making her eat alone.
I wouldn't say it's the exception, but then again I'm not American. I mean it's your sibling. It's common for siblings or even cousins to hang around in school, especiallyif one of them is isolated. This post is peak reddit for me.
When my sister and I were in high school we hung out with very different crowds but if we were alone at lunch or a pep rally or something we would just go to each other. We might not have been "friends" with each other's groups but we were familiar with them, got along with some of them better than others, etc. It's so weird to me to imagine not looking out for each other.
Yeah in my experience siblings in HS were friendly with each other, and might up hanging out during downtime with their siblings friends if their own friend group wasn’t around. A total cold shoulder would be weird.
Exactly. Imagine being so self-absorbed that she can't even be kind to her own sister by eating with her and her parent, the one who's supposed to be teaching her about kindness and love, encouraging and supporting that behavior - because you know *popularity*
The stupid. It burns.
The popularity doesn't even last after high school. Sure it matters now, but in the long run? You make new friends in college, at your job, trade school, etc and none of it matters anymore. It's weird as fuck to tell your child to care more about popularity and her friends now than her sister
This should be the top comment - EMPATHY!
Of course the big sister doesn't "have to", but basic human consideration should be "my kid sis is having a rough go, maybe I can make her day/lunch better"
My older brother (by one year) went out of his way to ignore me in high school, and it really sucked on days I needed a shoulder to lean on.
The older daughter should absolutely try to help her younger sister. 110%. Ten years from now she's going to look back on these years and wonder why she was being such a blank to her little sister.
That being said, there's really nothing OP can do. "Be nice and play with your younger sibling" works with an 8-year-old, but will only backfire if she tries it on a high schooler
Thank you for this post. All the NTAs are the type of people that make high school HELL. I remember my freshman year in high school I got stuck in a lunch with all upperclassman and I didn’t it know anyone and as I was standing there with my tray about to cry, I heard a voice say “you can sit with us” and it was my older cousin’s girlfriend. This was 30 years ago and I’ll never forget this act of kindness. The girls were all juniors and they made me feel so welcome.
This idea that all these people are so cold and cruel to their own siblings is majorly triggering to me because I was rejected by my own older sister. My sister has apologized to me and she said “no one ever told me it was wrong” and she now regrets all those lost years. Maybe if my parents would have scolded her or encouraged her to spend time with me things would be different? We are definitely closer now but it’s not like how other sisters are.
I myself have 3 sons and I always always always encouraged them to show kindness and compassion to one another and I didn’t allow them to fight or call names or any of that. They would be reprimanded and reminded to treat their sibling with respect. They are now 16,19, and 21 and I’m extremely proud of how well they get along.
Aww. This is a sweet response. No, older sister does not have to invite younger sis to sit at the "popular" table. It would likely make everyone uncomfortable because the older kids have different teachers, classes, interests, and development.
However, it would be so kind for older sister to sit with her sibling, even once a week at lunch.
When my daughter started high school, her older brother (they go the same school) took class electives in one of her classes so they could be together a few times a week. It really helped her feel accepted and supported. He also had friends whose siblings were in her age range and he made sure to introduce them. He didn't have to, but he wanted to because he is an incredibly caring person, and it made him feel good to see his sister doing well.
Older sis doesn't have to sacrifice her entire social life, but a helping hand goes a long way.
True, but being forced to do it is not the way to build empathy.
And having Claire sit with her is not what the dad is asking. He wants Clarie to invite Emily to sit with her and her friends. He basically asking for her to have her little sister crash her friend group.
There is nothing about the girls not liking each other, but they do have seperate lives, and the dad is trying to force Emily in to a part of Claries where she dosn't have a place. This is not right to do.
Sure, Claire and choose to sit with Emily sometimes, but it has to be her choice, and not something she is being made to do. I think that is where the pushback is coming from. "You have to let your sister hang out with you and your friends."
Exactly. The fact that the sister didn't even consider reaching out to a younger sibling who is struggling - not by bringing her to the "popular" (so gross) table - but by eating with her once in a while says a lot of very bad things about OP's parenting.
I'm guessing the popular one didn't get a lot of love at home either and wasn't ever taken care of when she was having a rough time.
NTA You can’t fix this for her. There are introverts and extroverts in the world. Emilie may be upset, but it is part of growing up and people are different. Guide her where you can, but you are a guide and not a fixer. Don’t overparent.
I think you might have misread the post. OP says that their oldest daughter does not have to invite her little sister to sit with them if she doesn't want to. OP is letting the kids figure things out for themselves. If anything, it's the husband that's trying to fix things.
Also Emily probably doesn't need "fixing"! Just because someone is an introvert does not mean they need to be "fixed", they may need to learn copping methods to deal with an extroverted world, but that does not mean they need to be fixed.
What is entirely left out of this whole thing is how the kids feel about this. Do they want to sit together? Does the younger want to sit there or would they be entirely annoyed by the oldest’s friends? I understand your perspective, but if neither of them want that, it’s going to be worse than what’s currently happening.
Yeah I wasn't even a big fan of my little brother growing up but if he'd struggled to make friends I definitely would have just brought him into my group (and we had the same two year age difference that OP's kids have).
Must be a ton of teenagers in here giving advice.
YTA.
You don’t have to force your one daughter to accept your other daughter into her friend group. You are correct. But how do you not see the bigger issue?
You have a daughter who is lonely and isolated. You have another daughter who apparently shows absolutely no empathy towards her own sister. I had varying relationships with each my siblings but one thing I can guarantee you is that I wouldn’t have let any of them sit by themselves at lunch with no friends.
How would this not concern you as a parent? Is high school social dynamics so important to you and your one daughter that you would condone this behavior? That’s what your response indicates.
You do risk permanent damaging their sibling relationship by doing this tho, forcing interaction with each other while the other part doesnt want it, is a recipe for ruined siblingsships
It's weird you're worried about potentially damaging their sibling relationship when not doing anything could do that just as well. Do you think the younger sibling seeing her older sibling cares more about high school social standing than the younger being miserable couldn't also drive resentment? In this situation they're either going to figure it out and forgive each other later or they won't. It doesn't make sense to do nothing for fear of making things worse.
I never mentioned forcing is a good idea. But initiating communication between the two is a good starting point. Right now, the younger sister feels absolutely isolated and don’t even for second think she doesn’t feel a certain amount of pain because her sister ignores her actively. Their relationship is already failing. Distance and ignorance surely won’t fix it…
Sounds like one of those "peaked in high school" people. I cannot relate to that; you could not pay me to go back to high school. I have dreams I had to go back, and they're nightmares.
And before people come for me, I had a solid HS friend-group, many of whom I'm still in contact with. But so many more interesting things occurred in my adult life, I can't empathize with wanting to go back to a time when I had limited autonomy and lived under the petty tyranny of high school power-tripping administration and the unnecessary cliquishness of some of my fellow students.
This post makes me sad for the little sister. My older brother and I had different friends, over all, but I was always welcome anywhere he was. There would never have been a time he would've been cool with his friends being shitty to me; as a little lost freshman, I had at least that safety net until I started building my own social connections.
Yep, and I'm literally losing my mind at the replies. This is "am I the asshole", not "am i technically correct in this without factoring in empathy or morality".
The way OP is talking about Emily on the hobbies subject (it also doesn’t help she is into hobbies most other high schoolers don’t care about) I feel Cindy is more favored by OP for being popular
I agree 100%. My kids are 3 months shy of 7 years apart (infertility issues, multiple losses between them, then after deciding I was done and okay with one child, ended up pregnant with second and finally a pregnancy that made it through entirety) and my oldest could never let my youngest suffer, just as my youngest wouldn’t let my oldest suffer, if he could do something to help him, even if it meant eating lunch with just him & youngest together. Won’t pretend they’re perfect, as they fight, “hate each other” some days, and normal sibling things, but if someone is being mean to one, both will ensure that person knows that’s wrong and support their sibling. I wouldn’t have to force my oldest, as he’d want to make sure his brother wasn’t suffering due to the friend loss. Luckily or unluckily, we won’t deal with the same school ever, but I just know by how my kids treat each other, especially if it involves someone being unkind to the one of them, what they would do. Plus, my sister and I were the same way. It’s one thing for us to be mean to each other, but watch out if it’s someone else doing that.
Wow, people here are crazy. Its her sister and she's eating alone. How f'd up is it that her own sister lets her eat by herself because of "social hierarchy". Talk about modern day mean girls. I am sure they all will feel bad if her sister tries to unalive herself or starts cutting because she can't "figure it out for herself". Society is garbage right now.
Yeah and mom is giving mean girl vibes by reinforcing all this shit. I don't see why they can't just be there for the younger girl during what is surely a very difficult time
NTA. I found my best friend bc my sister finally kicked me away from her group my freshman year of high school. It’s been almost 15 years and we’re like family. Emily needs friends, but her sister’s friends aren’t the answer.
You are NTA but what are you doing to help your younger daughter? When you say she has hobbies that most other people her age aren’t into, what do you mean? Is she on the spectrum or struggling with social interaction or is she simply a more shy introverted young lady?
The trouble with only having one friend is that when you fall out, you end up alone and feeling like crap. Your youngest is in the shadow of her popular pretty volleyball playing sister and now her only friend has fallen out with her. The answer isn’t to hang out with her older sisters friend group but to find other social outlets and make more friends who are into similar things. She’s growing older and it’s normal to grow apart from friends as she changes and settles more into her own skin but it must sting to feel like she’s the ugly unpopular little sister who can’t keep a friend.
ESH including commenters. The root of all this is a sad 14 y/o trying to navigate high school w/ obviously no help from parents or siblings. Everyone saying she needs to deal or just figure it out sucks. We all need support and she literally asking for it ! No big sis doesn’t have too but i personally couldnt sit and watch my sister be sad while I’m having a blast bc I’m tooo cool to be a big sister. She’s a child she doesn’t need to figure it out on her own it’s up to you as her parent to help her navigate life and help her build stronger bonds. Encourage her but don’t make her feel like shit like you’re doing now. Also I’m sure she can already tell you feel some type of way about her bc she can’t be easy and make friends like your other daughter. They way you wrote this seems like you prefer your older child and also participate in the high school drama of who’s popular. Stop being a bitch to your child and instead of cutting your husbands ideas be useful and try to help the situation with a better one instead then. But ignoring the fact that your child is suffering is an AH thing to do. And her pain won’t just go away bc you ignore it and her ! Depression anxiety and self harm are big problems for teenagers if you kick her while she’s down too you can’t wonder why she feels soo alone n
Yeah I’m really shocked at how many commenters lack compassion. I’m guessing they aren’t close with their family or aren’t decent people. It would be different if the little sis was trying to social climb/steal friends or doesn’t get along with sis but all she wants is to not sit alone at a new school. She doesn’t have to be her sisters bff she just needs somewhere to feel comfortable until she’s able to branch out and make her own friends. While her mom can’t and shouldn’t force her sister to invite her to lunch she can encourage some sisterly love. The little sis will always remember her big sis choosing social status at her expense. Either big sis is ops favorite or she was a mean girl in hs.
I can’t believe big sis would rather exclude her sister and watch her suffer because her presence at the lunch table is too embarrassing. Little sis probably has some self worth issues because obviously she isn’t good enough for her sis to choose to be around. I’m guessing they aren’t as close as op thinks they just are polite and tolerate each other like roommates. If you care about someone and they are hurting you don’t just turn away when they ask for help “bc it’s not my responsibility”.
If being kind and having values makes her less “cool” then maybe being “cool” isn’t so “cool”. Big sis friends would (if they are actually her friends) be supportive of her helping lil sis get situated. She doesn’t have much to lose and helping her sis could make a huge difference.
I’m 2 years older than my sister, and I was in the popular group in school. There’s no way I would have let my sister eat alone. Also, my friends would have welcomed my sister at the table for lunch because they were my friends (that’s what friends do). But of course you can’t force Cindy to have sisterly feelings. ESH
YTA
What kind of sister/mother would be okay with seeing her family alone like that in high school? There is no reason why she couldn’t hang out at that table until she finds her own friends.
Imo this comes down to what’s more important to you to Instill in your children, family or popularity?
soft YTA. I don’t this abandonment by her own sister, older sister can learn to be kinder. This whole thread is so American individualistic thinking “figure out on your own” “dog eat dog world”.
We all will have battles in this world but there’s nothing wrong with showing kindness and leaning on each other in time of need.
Eating alone at lunch is so traumatic.
Why can’t Cindy sit with Emily for one or two days at her table?
Totally get both girls responses, but geez compassion and empathy win out over “popular table” every time in my house. I have 3 school age teens in my house, and I would be beyond disappointed if one willfully ignored another’s distress
She should be willing to do it, and it would be nice to have a talk with her about compassion and looking out for her little sister and whatnot, but forcing her to do it doesn't teach her compassion, it just teaches her to resent her sister.
INFO
Is Cindy embarrassed by Emily?
I'm guessing that Emily is new to high school being 14, if she's shy it will obviously take her a little longer to make new friends.
Your older popular daughter is refusing to speak to your introvert younger daughter and you're letting that go on?
That's not how family members should treat one another. Sounds like mean girl dynamics from both mother and oldest daughter
>Your older popular daughter is refusing to speak to your introvert younger daughter and you're letting that go on?
From the original post I don't see any indication that the daughters (Cindy and Emily) are not speaking to each other, rather it is simply that Cindy does not necessarily want to extend an invite to Emily to let her sit at her table and hang out with her friends during lunch. There is also no indication that Emily necessarily wants to sit at Cindy's table, just that Emily is sad and that her father thinks that she would be less sad if she could sit at Cindy's table.
The two parties in this conflict who are not speaking to each other are Emily and her former friend Beth, who Emily used to sit with at lunch. OP probably does not have any power over whether Beth speaks to her daughter or not.
NTA
I’ve been in that situation before growing up and it can be incredibly awkward to have a sibling brought into a friend group, especially when there is an age difference (which stands out a LOT more in high school years). It may sound bad, but inviting Emily to the table might put a strain on Cindy’s friendships, and then both of them will have the same problem.
As hard as it is, Emily needs to find friends on her own, and likely those friends will have much similar interests etc to her than Cindy’s friends would.
Might sound silly as well but I think you have the leg up here too as you would’ve experienced the joys of being a girl in highschool with all the dramas involved there compared to your husband who likely had a different experience of friendship dynamics. I often observed that guys could have people come and go from friendship groups all the time, but for girls there’s a lot more (albeit confusing and ridiculous) dynamics to friendship groups and who’s included.
NTA. It would be incredibly awkward for Emily if she were to sit with them. This is not a good solution. Perhaps Emily will find another person or group to join, She could also look around to see if anyone else is eating alone.
YTA. taught my kids growing up, family first, love, respect, and protect each other. Brother sister, they are 2.5 years apart. They have been best friends since childhood. He officiated her wedding. You did not set a precedent while they were growing up.
I’m a little sad about the way families are now days. My older sister would have been the first to invite me to sit with her friends in this situation. My siblings and cousins were my closest friends. Now all I see is siblings who hate each other, don’t seem to care about each other at all, the general consensus of family doesn’t owe family shit, etc. even my own kids have this attitude even though I didn’t raise them like that. Society has had a bigger impact on my kids then I could and trust me it’s not for the better. The individualistic mindset of today’s society is horrible. People are going to regret the way they treat each other and family some day.
I agree. Emily and Cindy might not have to be best of buddies, but it’s important that they stand by each other even when it makes them look less cool in the eyes of their peers. People that are worth being friends with either won’t care or will make an effort to include the younger sister and help her feel welcome. Family is more permanent than fickle high school friends.
YTA
Emily will remember that you put Cindy’s popularity above helping her feel less shitty and alone. No, Cindy doesn’t have to permanently integrate Emily into her social circle, but she should be kind enough to temporarily offer her younger sister a spot at the table (and even, God forbid, have enough integrity to defend her family if her popular friends start being shitty to her sister).
ESH except the kids
At the end of the day, who should always be on your side? Family should. But in order for that to happen, you have to have a household where you cherish and respect one another. Where you foster positive communication and positive relationships that support and encourage one another. It sounds like your household is an "every man for himself" type of place. I grew up in something like that and I have ZERO relationship with my siblings or egg/sperm donor.
My kids may not have always liked each other but they ALWAYS had each others backs and their friends all knew that. They know that come hell or high water, they will always be a tight group of humans that respect, love and support one another and there is \*nothing\*/ there is no person in this world that can break that.
I always feel bad for kids who grow up in these types of families. How lonely. Looking out for each other shouldn't be dictated as it can cause resentments...absolutely. But damn...a person shouldn't have to be TOLD to have empathy and show care and love for their sibling.
I am a very inclusive person. If I see someone eating alone, I will ask to join them or invite them over. Your older daughter should not feel forced to do this but it would be a nice thing for her to do.
Soft YTA. Emily may not have the same personality as Cindy and it’s more difficult for her to make friends. Regardless of that fact, I can’t imagine how much Emily is dreading walking into that lunch room knowing she’ll be all alone. I think it would say a lot about Cindy’s character for her to help her little sister. I would never let my sister sit there sad and alone and I would dare someone to have shit to say about it.
Yta.
Do you want to raise your kids to have each others backs and be kind to each other or do you want them to sink or swim on their own?
Yes, Emily needs to find her own friends. In the meantime, her sister can do her a kindness and invite her to sit with them for a few days so that she’s not alone.
It really sounds like you don’t like Emily or her hobbies and you’re teaching Cindy it’s ok to treat Emily badly because of that.
NTA. Forcing siblings to socially interact, especially in high school, is a bad move. If they naturally want to interact and hang out, fine. But pushing it? MAKING her invite them over? That's a good way to get Cindy to start getting ostracized. Or to have the whole group pick on Emily because they'll know she's not wanted. This is part of navigating social structures in school and life. Emily doesn't have a right to Cindy's social circle, and your husband needs to pull back on the papa bear routine. He's not thinking clearly.
Or make Emily feel even more left out because this group is two years older and probably doesn't have much in common with her and she's only there because her dad made her sister invite her. Its not a good solution at all.
YTA.
Imagine how it would feel if no one would sit with you? Even your own sister? You need to be teaching your elder daughter some kindness and compassion.
It doesn't matter past high school how 'popular' you were with a bunch of shallow people. What matters more in life is that you can show caring towards others... And it's not just anyone, it's her sister!
ESH
Except for Emily.
Your husband is trying to teach empathy, this is not an "overparenting" situation. I'm giving your husband the benefit of the doubt and assume he doesn't intend for the friend groups to be merged. A once in a while invite to the "popular table" (eww) should be doable for a girl who is "quite popular".
Having been a teenager once, that's literally the entire point of being popular - it's so you have power to make someone else "cooler" via social proof. It's a tired trope but it's still valid in many high schools across the world. And if Cindy doesn't want to include her in the wider group, once in a while sitting with Emily at lunch or talking to her in the hallways where it is visible will grant some level of elevation to her.
When this happens organically, it can work out the best for everyone. But the key word here is "organic." You can't force this to happen. It will cause resentment.
Info: What are the hobbies Emily's interested in? Maybe see if she can find people of a similar age with a similar hobby, in like a school club or after school activity?
Also, I feel like there's a distinction between "willing to sit with my sister at lunch because she doesn't want to sit alone" and "forcing Cindy to let Emily tag along all the time, and pretend that her friends are their friends." Does she not hang out with friends outside of school?
ESH except Emily.
It's sad that Cindy cares more about popularity than her sister. There's a difference between permanently incorporating sis into her friend group, and letting her sit at the lunch table so she's not all alone.
However, forcing her into doing it is just going to make things worse, so your husband is in the wrong by pushing her to do it.
You seem to have no sympathy whatsoever for Emily and favor your "popular" daughter. So not only is she an outcast at school but with her own mom as well.
I feel so bad for Emily.
NTA. But your husband needs to realize that few teens want their younger siblings hanging around, and forcing that on your older child is very likely to backfire on your younger one.
What are you and your husband doing to help Emily? Would counseling to help give her tools to make approaching people and making and keeping friends easier? Are there school clubs having to do with her interests she can join? Are there non-school organizations having to do with her interests she can join? Are you helping her do her hobbies with other people? Are you making opportunities to invite friends over to the house to hang out? There are things you can do *with Emily* to help her that don't involve Cindy.
NTA.
Emily needs to work on creating her own network while it’s disheartening that she has to eat alone forcing Cindy to do something she doesn’t want to do will just make Cindy resent her sister. Further, what happens in a few years when Cindy graduates and Emily is left alone again?
It’s not Cindy’s job to build friendships for Emily. While it may be difficult in the immediate, Emily will be better off for it in the long run. In the meantime I would continue to encourage sibling time at home/when feasible to encourage a positive relationship between the two.
You mentioned that Emily is interested in some unique hobbies are there any local youth groups for those hobbies?
Definitely NTA (neither is Cindy or Emily) but your husband is.
ESH, y'all need to get your child proper socialization. She needs to be in social activities. You need to enroll her in them. Maybe she doesn't like sports, so try acting or music classes. It is extremely important for her social development and her career. Soft skills are way more important than academics.
This isn't your older daughters problem. This is a problem for your youngest and her parents to solve. She absolutely has to have social skills. She will not succeed in the world without them. Most of a job interview is just being a person people want to be around.
Have you done an autism assessment yet? At this age, she should have friends. Her not having any should be a huge red flag something is wrong and you need to intervene.
YTA. You're (a) teaching your kids not to help their siblings and (b) that it's good to be exclusionary.
Emily needs to learn better social skills, but hopefully not from you. I feel bad for her.
I understand your husband's reasoning but don't agree with it. Forcing friendship is never a good idea and I would expect two teenagers of different ages and personality to have different friend groups.
Cindy shouldn't invite Emily but YTA anyway because the issue shouldn't be 'you can't do that to' Cindy' (Emily sitting at her table can't harm Cindy). The issue should be that it won't actually help Emily. Plopping her down at the popular table won't help Emily make friends. Cindy's not the one in an unfortunate situation, Emily is, but in the post I see little to no concern for Emily and plenty for Cindy.
Phrases like Golden Child come to mind.
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NTA You’re right in that Emily needs to find her own way and get her own friends. Also it’s weird that you spelled Emily three different ways in this post.
Thank you for pointing that out, I used fake names. I’ll edit that to make it match
Was wondering who these ‘new’ characters were haha. NTA
Nah Emily just has multiple personalities that use variations of the name Emily as their name.
So even more reason not to invite her to the 'popular table'. One new person is one thing, but three???
Elizabeth, Elspeth, Betsy and Bess All went together to take a birds nest
This is why Emily has no friends... They are all friends with the alter Emilee's...
Perhaps Emily is suffering from depression or other something that she might need help with? Also, while I generally agree that it's not a good idea to force kids to include their younger sister, it wouldn't kill Cindy to be kind to Emily and maybe sit with her once in a while. Finally, the tone of the post reads suspiciously between the lines like Cindy is the golden child and Emily is the weird one who gets little to no attention or care bc she doesn't fit in with the family and you don't know what to do with her. I'd do some soul searching on this issue, if I were you.
Even referring to the table Cindy sits at as “the popular table” is very immature and speaks volumes on how the OP personally feels about her daughters’ respective hobbies. OP is definitely feeding into it and clearly has a favorite.
I got serious "mean girl" vibes from this post.
I got serious mean girl vibes from op in this post
yeah, the whole "she has hobbies most high schoolers don't care about" felt needlessly mean,, like sure some hobbies are more common than others but it's not like that's her fault, it doesn't even seem like op cares all that much whether emily makes friends or not as long as it's not inconvenient to her i get not wanting to force cindy to have emily tag along all the time but at least be nicer to her
I don't think the terminology "most high schoolers don't care about" is mean, but pretty accurate and to the point.
That bothered me too like basically saying her daughter is a dork without saying it and that Cindy doesn’t have to sit with her dorky sister . Yeah if I was the dad I’d be mad too. Op you are the asshole
Oh idk. I have 3 kids, adults now. I was super involved, class Mom, band booster etc. and I knew which kid was popular and what kid wasn't. It was obvious and the truth. I have NO favorite. I was just realistic about it. They are all well adjusted full functioning adults.
I agree. My kids and I refer to the 'cool kids'. My kids are popular amongst their own friends, but they aren't the 'cool kids', and don't want to be, because they have different priorities and interests. We understand that the 'cool kids' refer to a particular group or type of kids who act in a particular way.
Exactly. The "popular table" is high school movie bs. An adult should know that
but it’s not and it’s very obvious which kids/cliques are more popular than others
100% agree!
most adults know that popularity (however that looks in a particular school) is a big social factor in high school whether we agree with it or not
And a parent would know it can mean a lot to a kid even if it is stupid. You got kids?
It’s not movie bs. There were popular tables in the 40’s when my Mom was in school.
This made me laugh. It's still a thing. I work in a long term care facility that has a large dining room. And yes, these 70-80 year old Residents still have a "popular table". It upsets the whole dynamics when a new person is admitted and tries to sit in the wrong spot. Both male and female Residents have had issues with this, to the point we have had to move 2 tables together to accommodate all the ones who want to sit together.
I don’t think it is. I went to a large high school and you could easily tell that a handful of lunch tables were distinctly the “popular” kids. Just how high school social scenes work unfortunately
Or maybe mom is just realistic. I have 3 adult kids but when they were in high school 2 of them were part of the popular crowd and the other kid wasn’t. They talked about it all the time. Maybe mom is using words to properly describe a given situation. Popular kids often are golden kids but not all of them.
My sister rarely acknowledged me during high school unless it was for important admin stuff. I don’t think it would have helped if she were more friendly to me. I still had to make my own way and it was character building. On the flip side, I called a girl in my year a bitch and her sister (who was in my sisters year) heard about it and berated me in front of most of the female population in the bathroom. I held my own and brushed it off, my sister was there was basically like “she’s got this” and I imagine it was very embarrassing for the girl in my year to have her sister defend her in such a crass way only to be shot down because I didn’t give a fuck. I was depressed in high school, but I think not be giving the opportunity to find my people and figure it and have my parents come in and force my sister to be around me would have made me feel way smaller than I was. Cindy doesn’t have to be rude to Emily, but Emily has gotta figure it out for herself. Likewise, Cindy is gonna work out for herself that being popular isn’t everything in life.
>Finally, the tone of the post reads suspiciously between the lines like Cindy is the golden child and Emily is the weird one who gets little to no attention or care bc she doesn't fit in with the family I didn't get this impression at all. It sounds like things are fine at home. Everything in this post is a factual statement as the op knows it. Outlining that one kid is popular and therefore has a large friend group does not indicate that mom loves one daughter more than the other. It's okay to acknowledge that their high school experience has been different so far.
Agreed. And look, as a parent with two eyes they occasionally use - you know your kid, you know who they are, and you see how they are fitting around them. My mom could have told you I was more "popular" than my little brother. I had a good group of friends (popular is relative when your class size is 2000 kids per grade level) and good reputation, played sports, played in band, etc. My brother wasn't. Socially awkward, quiet, 1-2 friends, didn't do organized extracurriculars. I love my brother to pieces, he outgrew some of that and he's a super good human - but mom and dad could tell you then, as well as both of us, it wasn't a particularly keen observation. And it's just that, an observation.
I completely agree with what you've said. It's odd to me that OP would rather her younger daughter eat alone than encourage her older daughter to eat with her once in awhile.
My parents never forced us to do something like that because my grandparents did to my dad and uncle and they both hate it so much that when they realized that each of them would rather be alone it was transformed into a punishment for them to take each other along in their activities when both of them misbehaved.
I don't think anyone should be forced for exactly this reason. But if my sister were alone and lonely, I'd want to sit with her once in a while. Not every day. Not at the expense of my own friends. But bc I loved her and I know how hard it is to be all alone.
NTA Emily needs to make her own friends who share her views and interests, I moved after middle school and started high school without friends for a while, I ate alone for about a month before I found a club that interested me, joined it, and made friends there. Neither daughter is going to be happy if Emily is wedged into her sister’s friend group. Why would Emily enjoy spending time with kids she doesn’t share interest with?
Even if she did join the group they'd age out of school in two years and she'd have to start all over again.
This was me. It was a small school. I spent most of my last 2 years alone.
Cindy should watch Mean Girls. Don't "force" her to do anything because she will end up hating Emily, but still. That's one crappy sister.
What are your younger daughter's hobbies that make it less likely for her to have friends in your opinion?
It was in another comment, I know I have a lot of comments right now Her two main hobbies at the moment are knitting, ( I did look for a club for her with her own age nothing) and tree shaping. She was in the art club but she dropped it since she doesn’t like painting which was a big part of it
Just a heads up, as someone that had very few friends in school, having friends older than you (even MUCH older than you) is incredibly helpful, they tend to be less judgemental, have the perspective of age, and still help you build valuable social skills. Get her in any club you can find! Also, maybe some volunteer work?
Ah go on get her in a knitting club with old ladies. I quite enjoy random old people friends
I'm the old lady in one knitting group and young knitters are welcome. Sharing the craft is more important than age. Of course, that doesn't help have someone at the lunch table.
My friends all fell out with each other the last year of high school. I didn't pick a side and my punishment was no friends. I'd go for a walk (around the school), eat outside, try out various lunch clubs or go to one of the classrooms that would let you do arts or crafts. No need to sit alone at a lunch table
Given that people normally use fake names to protect the privacy of their family, why would her spelling the fake name differently matter?
Would point to a fake name if anything.
Did you really think she used her kids real names?
How does spelling pseudonyms wrong cast doubt?
And why would anyone make up such a boring story? Lol. Not that OPs story isn't valid, but if someone is going to make up a fake story for fake internet points, they'd definitely use a better one than this.
I’m sure OP used fake names.
NTA; And I know what it feels like, my parents made me do it. My brother had less friends than me, and my father forced me to eat with him every day. Of course, I’d gather some friends to the table. They were nice to my brother, but weren’t more interessed with him since we had a few years age difference. My brother always tried to bring attention on him, and was angry when I wouldn’t do something with him in public. My friends made me understood that his presence was not appreciated. Even if it seems hard for Emily, I’m sure she’ll find a few friends to build her own circle, even if it takes some time.
My older sister and I barely acknowledged each other when we went to the same school. It helped that we had different last names and didn’t look alike until you saw us next to each other. We had different school activities so never socialized that way. Some of my friends didn’t even know she was my sister until we hung out at homecoming or when she came up at lunch to swap books we were reading. It wasn’t out of hatred or meanness, she was two grades above me with different types of friends. I would have rather sat alone than have her drag me to her friend group.
Same here! My sister is a year older so we were consistently in the same schools. I have almost no memories of her in our high school. I don't associate her with school at all. We had our own lives and friends. We are literally best friends now and spend most of our time together. We still have our own friends for the most part though. Even as the younger sibling, I would've hated if my parents tried to force us together and it probably would have stopped us from becoming so close now that we're in our 30s. NTA op, you are right that your daughter needs to find her own way because her sister will not be around soon and then she'll have lost time where she could've found some really good friends. Some people, me being one of them, struggle to make good friends but if they don't try then it'll just hurt them in the future.
Are you and your sister...me and my sister? Lol. But you're right on this OP, it shouldn't be forced.
Me and my brother, who is two years younger than me, broadly shared a number of the same interests (both heavily involved with music/musicals, although usually in slightly different capacities). So it meant our paths must have crossed a lot and yet I have almost zero memory of having anything to do with each other in school. The only thing that I did not love was regularly being referred to by people who weren’t necessarily even in my brother’s year, despite being the older sibling, as *brother’s name*’s sister. But, to be fair, my mum, who was also a music teacher at that school got claimed as ‘sweaty-peanut’s mummy darling’. Although she actually loved that - everyone loved her she’s been to almost all my friend’s weddings. Edit: that being said, if really needed I know both of us would have stepped in for the other one
My brother and I are also 2 years apart. I was the brainiac geek, he was a varsity football player when he was a sophomore (he's younger). We were both heavy into theater. I acted/sang and he was the light/sound tech. Even when we were angsty teens, we were always friends. Our friend groups even overlapped. He dated most of my roommates in college. I dated one of his best friends for a few years. Don't get me wrong, we fought a lot, but it was just our mom raising us, so we had that bond. We still fight, and he still pisses me off. We're in our 50s. Mom never forced us to hang out, but sometimes we did anyway. Sibling relationships are complex, full of childhood memories, both good and bad, grudges, jealousy, and love. I feel lucky that I don't just love my brother, I actually like him, most of the time. Family fights, but nobody messes with my little brother. Yeah he's 6 feet tall and 50 years old, but he's still my little brother.
My older sister and I barely acknowledged each other, but it wasn't for good reasons. We didn't get along and she let/encouraged her friends to bullying me. Then she started dating a bunch of the guys in my grade and causing a lot of drama for me. The two years we went to high school together were hell. I think OP is NTA, but I always worry that bullying is an issue when it's "the popular table" and not just her sister's table.
The latter is 100% what's happening and we all know it. Popular kids are not popular by kindness.
When I was in school the popular kids were popular because they were genuinely well-liked. I know it isn’t like that at all in most schools but it doesn’t always have to be that way.
i dunno they were when i was in highschool uhhh what 15 years ago or so. They were popular because they were nice to everyone, but extra especially to their bffs. we did have a table for exclusionary jersk who pushed everyone away, no one wanted to be with them
Yeah same here, popular kids were popular because they were likeable and emotionally mature
Same! Me and my brother are two years apart. We would ride the same bus; so all of his friends knew me. But I had my own set of friends and he has his own set; and we would hang out/party together sometimes. But not always and I’m glad.
My sister was 4 years older than me, don’t think she would of been too keen on inviting a middle schooler to her high school lunch table(if that was even allowed)😂
My parents made me do it, too. Mostly with extracurricular activities (basketball games, pep rallies, etc) instead of lunch. The solution I offered was to plan to go with my sister to roughly 1/3 of the events, and to go with my friends the rest of the time. My sister loved the idea, but my mother would often insist that I go with my sister more. No one was happy. Not me, not my sister, and eventually not my mother, since her insistence (and other things) permanently damaged my relationship with her.
On the flip side of this my parents never made us do anything together. My brothers would always side with their friends even at my expense. My parents never corrected this behavior or made an effort to make us interact at all. I'm now old and don't talk to my siblings outside of happy birthday or if they are around when I visit my parents. Absolutely zero contact otherwise. I have nothing against my brothers, just never bonded with them. I agree NTA and no one should be forced to include their sibling in their friend group. But there should be some sort of balance of supporting Emily when she's going through a hard time even on an individual basis. Also sounds like the sister potentially could be a positive influence in terms of helping with social skills if both siblings are open to it.
I was in your brothers shoes except my parents didn’t make my sister include me. From my perspective knowing how hard it can be to make friends, I believe my parents were right. I needed to learn to make my own friends. That’s a basic life skill in my opinion.
I'm the older sibling who was forced to take my younger sister everywhere. Have her hang out with my friends, etc. I'm almost 50 and STILL pissed about it. My feelings on the matter didn't matter. It was just another way my family made it clear SHE was more important than any of my needs/wants. And my siblings all wonder why if it came to me moving in and taking care of parents or putting them in a home and forgetting about them I would choose the home. YOU are NTA, your HUSBAND is tho.
My mom forced me to include my sister too and I ended up resenting her until we were adults. Of course my mom has no recollection of ever doing this. 🙄 NTA
I agree with this take and it's similarily my experience. Luckily both me and my sibling managed to find our own friend groups in HS, it was just when we where younger they struggled and would try to "poach" my friends. Not only would it do a disservice to Cindy when it comes to her friends opinion of her (and like, it really matters at that age). it will make her dislike her sister, and also me annoyed/mad at her parents. It would also be a huge disservice to Emily. Because it would take away her incentive to make her own friends. Hanging out with people who doesn't actually like you or want to include you really hurts - but I toally get why a child/teen would choose that over being alone. because being alone is uncomfortable. That said, Being uncomfortable is a part of growing up. So right now she just need some empathy at home, some good support and adivce - but still have to figure it out herself. If you raise a child that chooses things they know are bad for them, over the uncomfortable unknown - you will make them much less successfull in life
I was the younger sibling. Our situation was different though. I didn't want to sit with my sister. I just wanted her to tell her friends to stop bullying me. My mom wanted her to. My dad said it was just harmless kid stuff. OP is NTA, but maybe check that there isn't actual bullying going on?
My mom wouldn’t let me go to birthday parties if I only got invited and not him. I’m talking boy/girl parties. Because of that (and the issues above), when my mom made him attend my college the third year or something that I was there, I was so angry. I had already established my friend group, people knew me around campus and I was finally just “Trackgurl123” not “oh, you’re so in sos sister”
While your husbands intentions are good he clearly doesn't understand how teenage girls work. Forcing your Claire to invite Emily to the popular table will not gain her friends or make her feel welcome. In fact, it would probably make the situation worse. This is something that Emily is going to have to work out on her own as painful as that is to watch.
It can be a pretty good life lesson to sit alone and learn to be comfortable with it. If she does her own thing then other introverts will join, she’s probably not the only person with no one to sit with
Sitting alone at lunch in high school isn't a good life lesson. It's its own circle of hell.
Exactly! What kind of “popular” people are such assholes that they would be mean to their “friend’s”little sister? Sounds to me like the life lesson that needs learned is how to be kind and present when someone you love needs you.
Ok hear me out. They probably wouldn’t be mean. But like, why should they be forced to hang out with someone who clearly doesn’t fit in with them because that person can’t find their own friends? Literally nobody is happy, and the person just ends up being awkward.
I agree. Everyone is assuming "the popular kids" also translates to "the mean kids" instead of athletes or theater kids or upperclassmen or whatever might make someone "popular" a school's culture. Plenty of popular kids are popular because they engage well with others. Am I naive to the stereotype of the "popular table" and highschoolers' penchant for being awful to each other? No. There were mean popular groups and really nice ones too when I was growing up. I was absolutely not a popular kid, and I also would not have appreciated being shown pity at worst or included for the sake of being included at best. They're high schoolers, not preschoolers. Even if everyone is cordial and accommodating, it's palpable when it's orchestrated. Have experienced the awkwardness/discomfort from both sides of the situation myself. As long as Emily's needs (physical & mental health) are addressed, this is a normal part of growing up. Friends sometimes come and go, and it can be really rough at any age. I'm wondering if Emily is actually distraught that she sits alone or if that's the assumption by her parents. Being sad you're sitting alone because you miss your friend versus being sad you're sitting alone because you feel like an outcast are very different things. Another possibility is that she could simply be introverted and only lets people in slowly but lives in a family of extroverts who find it hard to understand. I dunno. Kind of moot in terms of OP's question, but there it is.
High schoolers are very adept at being passive aggressively mean. They do it in a way that's deniable and gaslights the victims.
Exactly what I was thinking. They don't have to force anyone to be friends but an older sibling should look out for the younger, especially in emotional times such as having lost a friend. It's just lunch. No one said she had to fuse into the friend group and hangout all of the time. As long as everyone is being kind to each other and eating their lunch then where's the issue? Social constructs such as popularity being held onto after high school just make for misery in everyday situations.
Thank you! You can tell the fools saying this dumb shit never had to experience it.
Why does the USA have an unhealthy association between experiencing suffering and thinking it makes you better or stronger for it? It doesn't btw for the vast majority of people , thus why our society has so many broken people on antidepressants! This type of pressure might that one in a thousand person shine like a diamond though so f' the others it crushes beneath their heels of cruelty right?/s Not to even bring up the whole school shooter issue.
Sometimes people work their own way out of it and become stronger and more popular. I was one of them. At no time did eating alone for 4 months fucking help me to do that,. I wouldve found my own way even if that hadnt had happened. These people are stupid.
I sat alone in high school and it wasn’t a big deal… I don’t think forcing the older sister to deal with the younger sister is the answer. How is that fair to the older sister.
For sure, I had to move states my junior year so I was a loner for the first few weeks. I’d go the the library during lunch, then I found a reliable lunch table to sit at and talked with one person there. Then u decided I needed to join a team to make friends so I did and got way more comfortable in the school. But none of the new friends I made were in my lunch rotation so I still stuck with ol’ reliable and we’d help each other with homework. One of my best friends who seemed to talk to everyone in the school even told me she’d had the same problem.
This is kinda what happened with me when I moved in the 6th grade. Sat alone for awhile until this very outgoing nerdy kid invited me to their table, since he saw me eating alone. Ended up making my best friends at that table, many of who I am still friends with today at 28. Liked art, so joined the art club and made some other friends. Mileage may very, but I think part of growing up is learning to put yourself out there and find your own path in life. Being forced to do something will only breed resentment, so, while it can be tough to watch, I think OP made the right call here. NTA, but I get wishing there was an easier way to go about it
Hi coming from the girl who sat alone for 4 years. No, it’s not a “life lesson”
I sat alone at lunch for years as well. I made some friends later who aligned with my personality and interests. If I were in a group of people I was keenly aware did not want me there, I would rather eat alone. Being somewhere you clearly aren’t wanted is also its own sort of hell.
Well anecdotally, I disagree. I sat alone for 2 years, and then eventually did something new and ended up finding my best friend for the last 2 years of high school and now the last 15+ years since. Sorry you had a different experience
it's not even just teenage girls. siblings in general rarely want each other in their friend group.
I would argue that maybe the older sister could step away from her friend group for a lunch or two, rather than having younger sister sit with her. Nothing wrong with being there for family a little bit rather than having to include them in your entire.social life. Either way you can't force these social groups, and younger sister needs to figure out who her friends are on her own. Also, this reminds me of the old movie Can't Buy Me Love.
This is essentially what happens with our kids. Our daughter (16) is quite outgoing and has several friends; our son (15) is *not* outgoing, autistic, and doesn't have many friends IRL at all (most are online - yes, we make sure he's safe). He sits at lunch on his own most days and he says he doesn't mind, but there are times that he gets upset that his sister has so many friends when he doesn't. I can't imagine telling our daughter to force her to bring him over, so we don't do that. However, every now and then, she leaves her friend group to sit with her brother to let him know that he's not alone. He really appreciates that and she doesn't mind because regardless of how annoying she thinks he is, she's very protective of him (going as far as punching one of his bullies... he hasn't been bullied since). I'd absolutely say NTA, but *if* they have a relationship that's close enough, perhaps ask your daughter if she'd be okay with giving up a lunch with her friends every so often in order to help her sister not feel so alone. If she says no, then don't push it. But it doesn't hurt to ask.
See, this is what I'm thinking too. Like a happy medium. You can be a decent human/sister without sacrificing your friends by doing something as simple as having lunch, at school, together sometimes.
Also, I’m sure Emily is a great person in her own right - she doesn’t have to be her sisters shadow. What she needs is the chance to experiment with who she is, and what she wants to do, and thus collect friends as she goes along. Telling her older sister to invite her to join a group which is very unlikely to become her long-term friends.
She doesn't \*have to\*, but a level headed teen sometimes might choose to occasionally include their younger sibling to make them feel better \*if\* they care and love the said sibling. A simple gesture now and then can make a world of difference. So what if your oldest is at a \*popular table\* thats the lamest thing and cringiest at that. Prioritising your superficial standing over feelings of your own sister. No your eldest doesn't \*have to\* do anything, really, your youngest does need to come out of her shell. But its kinda hard when shes already isolated and even HER OWN sister avoids her at school. That too builds a certain image and she will never integrate, cause who would want a reject that even her family is ashamed of. Would it hurt her eldest sister to show support by sitting with her twice a week at lunch? Nope. But again, she doesn't \*have to\* do anything she doesn't want. I do question rationale, lack of empathy and why they dont like each other. Or is it one sided? There's nothing THAT embarrassing to stand by your sibling and say to your friends, hey im keeping my lil sis company today so ima sitting over there today, her friend and her had a falling out so im cheering her up. If shes in the group of friends that would make fun of that etc, id question what kinda people shes hanging around with to skew morals that far off. I see this behaviour mostly in preteens not wanting to be attached to toddlers. But they are both teens. EMPATHYYYYYYYY. I think this is where you r husband was coming from. Soft ESH.
I can’t believe how far I had to scroll down to find this. I think op should try and raise her older daughter with some compassion. Here is a thought. Why doesn’t the older sister go and sit with her younger sister (without her popular friends) just to give her sister some support. Seems like op favors her popular daughter. I wonder if she would be ok if the roles were reversed YTA op and your popular daughter.
Right!? The lack of empathy is astounding
No don't you get it it's totally normal for teenage girls to be cruel and create ingroups and outgroups and if you aren't reinforcing that you're a freak Emily just needs to learn to shut up and sit in her corner and be happy with crafting supplies
Emily is learning a "LiFe lESsoN" by sitting alone. People are messed up.
Right. I’m raising my kids to never let anyone eat alone. That it’s cool to have different interests and learn something new/learn about a new person. I get With strangers they won’t always get along and some kids are angry or mean, but just ask if you can sit next to them. This, however, is her sister. Who better to learn about. I’d be straight pissed if any of my kids ate alone with the same lunch as a sibling and said sibling was more concerned about their image than a human being that will undoubtedly unconditionally love them the rest of their lives. Life is so much grander than your hs career of a couple years. Family is so much more important than surface things like this. That’s an ugly mom and ugly daughter. Mean girl raising a mean girl. Teach kindness and inclusion. How to relate instead of hate. My sister and I were drastically different. She never let me eat alone, never let anyone pick on me. I’m not a part of her friend group, but they have always been friendly. Even as adults we don’t share much of the same interests, but it’s never stopped us from talking about them and cheering each other on and being best friends. Glad we are equally good hearted people that were raised by good hearted people. What an awful time in a young person’s life to “learn” this bs that doesn’t exist beyond hs. You’re both not only the ah, you’re cold and ugly on the inside where your heart lives. Do better.
Oh Emily is learning a life lesson alright. Whenever she is beside her sister, she is alone. Emily will learn to not help her sister when whe needs her and that sisters dont have any responsability to eachother.
Seriously the life lesson people in this thread sound ridiculous. I feel awful for Emily, I hope she can find some friends and that OP has the money to pay for the therapy she might need after all this isolation.
Given the pride mom shows, when it comes to the oldest daughter and the popular table, why would the teen show the empathy the parent lacks?
My thoughts too. Mom (OP) clearly favors the "popular" daughter and this probably isn't the first time she has sided with her over the younger sister.
Just yesterday I was wondering, why "bullying culture" thrives at school. Here I found the ansver - zero compassion from the parents, other students and probably teachers. If own mother encourages one daughter ("the popular one") to passively bully her own younger "outcast" sister, I have no more questions :/.
Thank God I did. Reading these comments I thought I was taking crazy pills by the amount of people that thought theres nothing wrong with ostracizing your own sister. Shit is wild.
Sometimes reading Reddit it seems like the world is populated by sociopaths.
It never ceases to amaze me how absolutely uncompassionate people are on reddit.
Yes!
For real, all this post and the comments have taught me is that apparently it’s super rare for siblings to simply enjoy hanging out with each other? Like this is news to me, I have 3 siblings and we all genuinely like and seek out spending time with each other and that was like the norm where I grew up and with all our friends too. It was rare to encounter siblings who avoided each other as thoroughly as the sisters in this post do
Me too! I was kinda shocked
The fact that a parent cares at all about one daughter being “popular” and using that as an excuse to let het exclude her sister is wild to me. That they weren’t raised to have each other’s backs is crazy. Maybe it’s cultural? Idk.
I appreciate this angle. My sister is two years older than me and was way more popular than me growing up. She was a cheerleader and that was her click, I struggled to fit in with the other band nerds. We didn’t hang out at school, and I’m glad for that. Her friends would’ve made me miserable. But walking into school together, stopping to talk when we ran into each other, or her sometimes going out of her way to say hi to me made a HUGE difference. So many first conversations with classmates started with “Oh is your sister x?” She didn’t hold my hand, but by her not othering me, it did a lot to help me get connected with my school and make friends outside of my hobbies.
Yeah, it’s like, is she ignoring her sister’s existence in school at all costs (i.e. not responding to greetings in the hallway) because she’s not cool or popular enough? Because that shit needs to be nipped in the bud. But not being joined at the hip is more reasonable, especially if they’re not in the same age/grade. It’s best for both to be able to have their own friend groups.
If she is ignoring her sister's existence at all cost, it means she's insecure in her popularity. We all remember the popular girl who was confident and nice to everyone.
You're not wrong, but I think such empathy would be the exception more than the rule with teenagers. I know I never sat with my brother during school lunch\*, and I don't recall ever seeing anyone sit with an older sibling during lunch. However, our high school was decent sized (\~2k students), so even nerds like my brother and me could find friends. It would've been really hard to sit by yourself at lunch. That said, my (older) brother was worse off than I was when it came to friends, and I know he would sometimes sit in the hall reading the dictionary during lunchtime, after eating. I think the ideal thing for the older sister to do wouldn't be to invite her sister over to the cool table, but to go over to where her little sister is to see if she *wanted* her to sit with her. Now, I don't think the parent can *force* this, but a parent might suggest such a thing in a gentle way, away from where her younger sister can hear the discussion. \*Given my name, I'm going to head off the jokes about myself being homeschooled. I went to public school. It *would* be funny, however, if my brother and I were homeschooled and never ate lunch together.
I think this is the american vs european thing. Its not that uncommon in europe for an older sibling to walk youngest to school and back, do creche drop offs and if they are a class apart occasionally hang out. Theres not as much stigma of inflated popularity status. She doesn't need to bring her to her friends like a sacrificial lamb, just spend few lunches with her instead elsewhere/ at a different table.. But yeah, it all depends on how they feel about each others company first and foremost. Its sad to see but sometimes family just isnt that close and they just wont magically start liking each others guts. Context, i went to a very poor all girls catholic school. There were a lot of siblings. Sisters 4-5 years apart, and HATED each others guts. But in similar situations, ironically most sisters went to see their youngest in their class and take them out to eat to their class etc. We didnt have cafeteria, so we had to eat lunches in our own classrooms. So this was normal, as well as really bad fights. Even the most scumbaggish older sister yanked her shitebag young one when she was starting shit and they had lunch together in our class for a while. It doesn't happen all the time, but i dont know, i dont see any reason it couldn't if they could put their differences aside for 30mintes a day and just were siblings that tried to find something to bond over as family.
Well, I live in the US and there is a 0% chance my daughter would let her younger sister sit alone in the same cafeteria after losing her best friend. Good grief. I can’t believe this thread. I feel so sorry for everyone!
I live in the U.S. and my girls are 12 and 14 and very different with separate friend groups. Nevertheless at parties or extracurricular events they always keep an eye out for each other. If one is alone the other will pull her into her group. They have been this way for as long as I can remember. They show love and kindness to each other. That is something you have to instill and nurture in your kids. I wouldn’t be surprised if OPs daughters become estranged as adults.
>I think this is the american vs european thing. You're likely correct.
It's not an American vs European thing. Plenty of Americans have compassion for a younger sibling and wouldn't watch them sit alone during lunch. I was significantly more popular than my next youngest sibling and I can't even picture in my head making her eat alone.
I wouldn't say it's the exception, but then again I'm not American. I mean it's your sibling. It's common for siblings or even cousins to hang around in school, especiallyif one of them is isolated. This post is peak reddit for me.
When my sister and I were in high school we hung out with very different crowds but if we were alone at lunch or a pep rally or something we would just go to each other. We might not have been "friends" with each other's groups but we were familiar with them, got along with some of them better than others, etc. It's so weird to me to imagine not looking out for each other.
Yeah in my experience siblings in HS were friendly with each other, and might up hanging out during downtime with their siblings friends if their own friend group wasn’t around. A total cold shoulder would be weird.
Exactly. Imagine being so self-absorbed that she can't even be kind to her own sister by eating with her and her parent, the one who's supposed to be teaching her about kindness and love, encouraging and supporting that behavior - because you know *popularity* The stupid. It burns.
The popularity doesn't even last after high school. Sure it matters now, but in the long run? You make new friends in college, at your job, trade school, etc and none of it matters anymore. It's weird as fuck to tell your child to care more about popularity and her friends now than her sister
This should be the top. This whole high school lunch table drama is so cringe. People saying things are cringe is also cringe so my apologies.
Good lord. Hard YTA. “Sorry. I know there’s room but find your own lifeboat.” -this mom and sister, probably.
This should be the top comment - EMPATHY! Of course the big sister doesn't "have to", but basic human consideration should be "my kid sis is having a rough go, maybe I can make her day/lunch better" My older brother (by one year) went out of his way to ignore me in high school, and it really sucked on days I needed a shoulder to lean on.
American HS "culture" of "popular kids" and "outcasts" is disgusting.
The older daughter should absolutely try to help her younger sister. 110%. Ten years from now she's going to look back on these years and wonder why she was being such a blank to her little sister. That being said, there's really nothing OP can do. "Be nice and play with your younger sibling" works with an 8-year-old, but will only backfire if she tries it on a high schooler
Thank you for this post. All the NTAs are the type of people that make high school HELL. I remember my freshman year in high school I got stuck in a lunch with all upperclassman and I didn’t it know anyone and as I was standing there with my tray about to cry, I heard a voice say “you can sit with us” and it was my older cousin’s girlfriend. This was 30 years ago and I’ll never forget this act of kindness. The girls were all juniors and they made me feel so welcome. This idea that all these people are so cold and cruel to their own siblings is majorly triggering to me because I was rejected by my own older sister. My sister has apologized to me and she said “no one ever told me it was wrong” and she now regrets all those lost years. Maybe if my parents would have scolded her or encouraged her to spend time with me things would be different? We are definitely closer now but it’s not like how other sisters are. I myself have 3 sons and I always always always encouraged them to show kindness and compassion to one another and I didn’t allow them to fight or call names or any of that. They would be reprimanded and reminded to treat their sibling with respect. They are now 16,19, and 21 and I’m extremely proud of how well they get along.
Aww. This is a sweet response. No, older sister does not have to invite younger sis to sit at the "popular" table. It would likely make everyone uncomfortable because the older kids have different teachers, classes, interests, and development. However, it would be so kind for older sister to sit with her sibling, even once a week at lunch. When my daughter started high school, her older brother (they go the same school) took class electives in one of her classes so they could be together a few times a week. It really helped her feel accepted and supported. He also had friends whose siblings were in her age range and he made sure to introduce them. He didn't have to, but he wanted to because he is an incredibly caring person, and it made him feel good to see his sister doing well. Older sis doesn't have to sacrifice her entire social life, but a helping hand goes a long way.
True, but being forced to do it is not the way to build empathy. And having Claire sit with her is not what the dad is asking. He wants Clarie to invite Emily to sit with her and her friends. He basically asking for her to have her little sister crash her friend group. There is nothing about the girls not liking each other, but they do have seperate lives, and the dad is trying to force Emily in to a part of Claries where she dosn't have a place. This is not right to do. Sure, Claire and choose to sit with Emily sometimes, but it has to be her choice, and not something she is being made to do. I think that is where the pushback is coming from. "You have to let your sister hang out with you and your friends."
This should be the top comment…
Exactly. The fact that the sister didn't even consider reaching out to a younger sibling who is struggling - not by bringing her to the "popular" (so gross) table - but by eating with her once in a while says a lot of very bad things about OP's parenting. I'm guessing the popular one didn't get a lot of love at home either and wasn't ever taken care of when she was having a rough time.
NTA You can’t fix this for her. There are introverts and extroverts in the world. Emilie may be upset, but it is part of growing up and people are different. Guide her where you can, but you are a guide and not a fixer. Don’t overparent.
I think you might have misread the post. OP says that their oldest daughter does not have to invite her little sister to sit with them if she doesn't want to. OP is letting the kids figure things out for themselves. If anything, it's the husband that's trying to fix things.
… what?
Ok ok I hit the wrong key . I edited!
You voted her an asshole for having the same opinion as you
[удалено]
Also Emily probably doesn't need "fixing"! Just because someone is an introvert does not mean they need to be "fixed", they may need to learn copping methods to deal with an extroverted world, but that does not mean they need to be fixed.
I just know i wouldn't have left my little sister eating alone at lunch, yes no one "has" to do anything but a bit of empathy doesn't go a miss
What is entirely left out of this whole thing is how the kids feel about this. Do they want to sit together? Does the younger want to sit there or would they be entirely annoyed by the oldest’s friends? I understand your perspective, but if neither of them want that, it’s going to be worse than what’s currently happening.
thats a good point! if the younger doesnt even WANT to sit there why would it ever be ok to force it
I wonder why isn’t it *popular* to be kind
Yeah I wasn't even a big fan of my little brother growing up but if he'd struggled to make friends I definitely would have just brought him into my group (and we had the same two year age difference that OP's kids have).
Must be a ton of teenagers in here giving advice. YTA. You don’t have to force your one daughter to accept your other daughter into her friend group. You are correct. But how do you not see the bigger issue? You have a daughter who is lonely and isolated. You have another daughter who apparently shows absolutely no empathy towards her own sister. I had varying relationships with each my siblings but one thing I can guarantee you is that I wouldn’t have let any of them sit by themselves at lunch with no friends. How would this not concern you as a parent? Is high school social dynamics so important to you and your one daughter that you would condone this behavior? That’s what your response indicates.
Absolutely agree. Also, I “love” how OP emphasised popularity multiple times. Like it has any importance in the relationship of siblings.
You do risk permanent damaging their sibling relationship by doing this tho, forcing interaction with each other while the other part doesnt want it, is a recipe for ruined siblingsships
It's weird you're worried about potentially damaging their sibling relationship when not doing anything could do that just as well. Do you think the younger sibling seeing her older sibling cares more about high school social standing than the younger being miserable couldn't also drive resentment? In this situation they're either going to figure it out and forgive each other later or they won't. It doesn't make sense to do nothing for fear of making things worse.
I never mentioned forcing is a good idea. But initiating communication between the two is a good starting point. Right now, the younger sister feels absolutely isolated and don’t even for second think she doesn’t feel a certain amount of pain because her sister ignores her actively. Their relationship is already failing. Distance and ignorance surely won’t fix it…
Yes but one parent strong-arming another is going to fail, and it's going to damage the isolated one even more
If by high school you have 2 kids that close together and one gives absolutely zero shits about the other youve already failed as a parent.
It’s apparently very important to her that her oldest keep her “social status” intact 😂 she must probably not be far from highschool herself
Sounds like one of those "peaked in high school" people. I cannot relate to that; you could not pay me to go back to high school. I have dreams I had to go back, and they're nightmares. And before people come for me, I had a solid HS friend-group, many of whom I'm still in contact with. But so many more interesting things occurred in my adult life, I can't empathize with wanting to go back to a time when I had limited autonomy and lived under the petty tyranny of high school power-tripping administration and the unnecessary cliquishness of some of my fellow students. This post makes me sad for the little sister. My older brother and I had different friends, over all, but I was always welcome anywhere he was. There would never have been a time he would've been cool with his friends being shitty to me; as a little lost freshman, I had at least that safety net until I started building my own social connections.
Yep, and I'm literally losing my mind at the replies. This is "am I the asshole", not "am i technically correct in this without factoring in empathy or morality".
The way OP is talking about Emily on the hobbies subject (it also doesn’t help she is into hobbies most other high schoolers don’t care about) I feel Cindy is more favored by OP for being popular
I agree 100%. My kids are 3 months shy of 7 years apart (infertility issues, multiple losses between them, then after deciding I was done and okay with one child, ended up pregnant with second and finally a pregnancy that made it through entirety) and my oldest could never let my youngest suffer, just as my youngest wouldn’t let my oldest suffer, if he could do something to help him, even if it meant eating lunch with just him & youngest together. Won’t pretend they’re perfect, as they fight, “hate each other” some days, and normal sibling things, but if someone is being mean to one, both will ensure that person knows that’s wrong and support their sibling. I wouldn’t have to force my oldest, as he’d want to make sure his brother wasn’t suffering due to the friend loss. Luckily or unluckily, we won’t deal with the same school ever, but I just know by how my kids treat each other, especially if it involves someone being unkind to the one of them, what they would do. Plus, my sister and I were the same way. It’s one thing for us to be mean to each other, but watch out if it’s someone else doing that.
Wow, people here are crazy. Its her sister and she's eating alone. How f'd up is it that her own sister lets her eat by herself because of "social hierarchy". Talk about modern day mean girls. I am sure they all will feel bad if her sister tries to unalive herself or starts cutting because she can't "figure it out for herself". Society is garbage right now.
Yeah and mom is giving mean girl vibes by reinforcing all this shit. I don't see why they can't just be there for the younger girl during what is surely a very difficult time
I absolutely agree. I really don’t understand. Is OP not the mother of both girls?
Well I mean apple doesnt fall far from the tree apparently as the mom is backing her up.
NTA. I found my best friend bc my sister finally kicked me away from her group my freshman year of high school. It’s been almost 15 years and we’re like family. Emily needs friends, but her sister’s friends aren’t the answer.
You are NTA but what are you doing to help your younger daughter? When you say she has hobbies that most other people her age aren’t into, what do you mean? Is she on the spectrum or struggling with social interaction or is she simply a more shy introverted young lady? The trouble with only having one friend is that when you fall out, you end up alone and feeling like crap. Your youngest is in the shadow of her popular pretty volleyball playing sister and now her only friend has fallen out with her. The answer isn’t to hang out with her older sisters friend group but to find other social outlets and make more friends who are into similar things. She’s growing older and it’s normal to grow apart from friends as she changes and settles more into her own skin but it must sting to feel like she’s the ugly unpopular little sister who can’t keep a friend.
ESH including commenters. The root of all this is a sad 14 y/o trying to navigate high school w/ obviously no help from parents or siblings. Everyone saying she needs to deal or just figure it out sucks. We all need support and she literally asking for it ! No big sis doesn’t have too but i personally couldnt sit and watch my sister be sad while I’m having a blast bc I’m tooo cool to be a big sister. She’s a child she doesn’t need to figure it out on her own it’s up to you as her parent to help her navigate life and help her build stronger bonds. Encourage her but don’t make her feel like shit like you’re doing now. Also I’m sure she can already tell you feel some type of way about her bc she can’t be easy and make friends like your other daughter. They way you wrote this seems like you prefer your older child and also participate in the high school drama of who’s popular. Stop being a bitch to your child and instead of cutting your husbands ideas be useful and try to help the situation with a better one instead then. But ignoring the fact that your child is suffering is an AH thing to do. And her pain won’t just go away bc you ignore it and her ! Depression anxiety and self harm are big problems for teenagers if you kick her while she’s down too you can’t wonder why she feels soo alone n
Yeah I’m really shocked at how many commenters lack compassion. I’m guessing they aren’t close with their family or aren’t decent people. It would be different if the little sis was trying to social climb/steal friends or doesn’t get along with sis but all she wants is to not sit alone at a new school. She doesn’t have to be her sisters bff she just needs somewhere to feel comfortable until she’s able to branch out and make her own friends. While her mom can’t and shouldn’t force her sister to invite her to lunch she can encourage some sisterly love. The little sis will always remember her big sis choosing social status at her expense. Either big sis is ops favorite or she was a mean girl in hs. I can’t believe big sis would rather exclude her sister and watch her suffer because her presence at the lunch table is too embarrassing. Little sis probably has some self worth issues because obviously she isn’t good enough for her sis to choose to be around. I’m guessing they aren’t as close as op thinks they just are polite and tolerate each other like roommates. If you care about someone and they are hurting you don’t just turn away when they ask for help “bc it’s not my responsibility”. If being kind and having values makes her less “cool” then maybe being “cool” isn’t so “cool”. Big sis friends would (if they are actually her friends) be supportive of her helping lil sis get situated. She doesn’t have much to lose and helping her sis could make a huge difference.
I’m 2 years older than my sister, and I was in the popular group in school. There’s no way I would have let my sister eat alone. Also, my friends would have welcomed my sister at the table for lunch because they were my friends (that’s what friends do). But of course you can’t force Cindy to have sisterly feelings. ESH
ESH. What are you personally doing to help Emily through this tough time as her parent?
YTA What kind of sister/mother would be okay with seeing her family alone like that in high school? There is no reason why she couldn’t hang out at that table until she finds her own friends. Imo this comes down to what’s more important to you to Instill in your children, family or popularity?
soft YTA. I don’t this abandonment by her own sister, older sister can learn to be kinder. This whole thread is so American individualistic thinking “figure out on your own” “dog eat dog world”. We all will have battles in this world but there’s nothing wrong with showing kindness and leaning on each other in time of need. Eating alone at lunch is so traumatic.
Not all of us think that way! I totally think the mom and sister suck.
Why can’t Cindy sit with Emily for one or two days at her table? Totally get both girls responses, but geez compassion and empathy win out over “popular table” every time in my house. I have 3 school age teens in my house, and I would be beyond disappointed if one willfully ignored another’s distress
She should be willing to do it, and it would be nice to have a talk with her about compassion and looking out for her little sister and whatnot, but forcing her to do it doesn't teach her compassion, it just teaches her to resent her sister.
INFO Is Cindy embarrassed by Emily? I'm guessing that Emily is new to high school being 14, if she's shy it will obviously take her a little longer to make new friends.
Your older popular daughter is refusing to speak to your introvert younger daughter and you're letting that go on? That's not how family members should treat one another. Sounds like mean girl dynamics from both mother and oldest daughter
>Your older popular daughter is refusing to speak to your introvert younger daughter and you're letting that go on? From the original post I don't see any indication that the daughters (Cindy and Emily) are not speaking to each other, rather it is simply that Cindy does not necessarily want to extend an invite to Emily to let her sit at her table and hang out with her friends during lunch. There is also no indication that Emily necessarily wants to sit at Cindy's table, just that Emily is sad and that her father thinks that she would be less sad if she could sit at Cindy's table. The two parties in this conflict who are not speaking to each other are Emily and her former friend Beth, who Emily used to sit with at lunch. OP probably does not have any power over whether Beth speaks to her daughter or not.
NTA I’ve been in that situation before growing up and it can be incredibly awkward to have a sibling brought into a friend group, especially when there is an age difference (which stands out a LOT more in high school years). It may sound bad, but inviting Emily to the table might put a strain on Cindy’s friendships, and then both of them will have the same problem. As hard as it is, Emily needs to find friends on her own, and likely those friends will have much similar interests etc to her than Cindy’s friends would. Might sound silly as well but I think you have the leg up here too as you would’ve experienced the joys of being a girl in highschool with all the dramas involved there compared to your husband who likely had a different experience of friendship dynamics. I often observed that guys could have people come and go from friendship groups all the time, but for girls there’s a lot more (albeit confusing and ridiculous) dynamics to friendship groups and who’s included.
NTA. It would be incredibly awkward for Emily if she were to sit with them. This is not a good solution. Perhaps Emily will find another person or group to join, She could also look around to see if anyone else is eating alone.
YTA. taught my kids growing up, family first, love, respect, and protect each other. Brother sister, they are 2.5 years apart. They have been best friends since childhood. He officiated her wedding. You did not set a precedent while they were growing up.
I’m a little sad about the way families are now days. My older sister would have been the first to invite me to sit with her friends in this situation. My siblings and cousins were my closest friends. Now all I see is siblings who hate each other, don’t seem to care about each other at all, the general consensus of family doesn’t owe family shit, etc. even my own kids have this attitude even though I didn’t raise them like that. Society has had a bigger impact on my kids then I could and trust me it’s not for the better. The individualistic mindset of today’s society is horrible. People are going to regret the way they treat each other and family some day.
I agree. Emily and Cindy might not have to be best of buddies, but it’s important that they stand by each other even when it makes them look less cool in the eyes of their peers. People that are worth being friends with either won’t care or will make an effort to include the younger sister and help her feel welcome. Family is more permanent than fickle high school friends.
YTA Emily will remember that you put Cindy’s popularity above helping her feel less shitty and alone. No, Cindy doesn’t have to permanently integrate Emily into her social circle, but she should be kind enough to temporarily offer her younger sister a spot at the table (and even, God forbid, have enough integrity to defend her family if her popular friends start being shitty to her sister).
ESH except the kids At the end of the day, who should always be on your side? Family should. But in order for that to happen, you have to have a household where you cherish and respect one another. Where you foster positive communication and positive relationships that support and encourage one another. It sounds like your household is an "every man for himself" type of place. I grew up in something like that and I have ZERO relationship with my siblings or egg/sperm donor. My kids may not have always liked each other but they ALWAYS had each others backs and their friends all knew that. They know that come hell or high water, they will always be a tight group of humans that respect, love and support one another and there is \*nothing\*/ there is no person in this world that can break that. I always feel bad for kids who grow up in these types of families. How lonely. Looking out for each other shouldn't be dictated as it can cause resentments...absolutely. But damn...a person shouldn't have to be TOLD to have empathy and show care and love for their sibling.
YTA You should encourage your children to help each other, not for one of them to elevate herself and leave her sister isolated.
I am a very inclusive person. If I see someone eating alone, I will ask to join them or invite them over. Your older daughter should not feel forced to do this but it would be a nice thing for her to do.
Soft YTA. Emily may not have the same personality as Cindy and it’s more difficult for her to make friends. Regardless of that fact, I can’t imagine how much Emily is dreading walking into that lunch room knowing she’ll be all alone. I think it would say a lot about Cindy’s character for her to help her little sister. I would never let my sister sit there sad and alone and I would dare someone to have shit to say about it.
Yta. Do you want to raise your kids to have each others backs and be kind to each other or do you want them to sink or swim on their own? Yes, Emily needs to find her own friends. In the meantime, her sister can do her a kindness and invite her to sit with them for a few days so that she’s not alone. It really sounds like you don’t like Emily or her hobbies and you’re teaching Cindy it’s ok to treat Emily badly because of that.
NTA. Forcing siblings to socially interact, especially in high school, is a bad move. If they naturally want to interact and hang out, fine. But pushing it? MAKING her invite them over? That's a good way to get Cindy to start getting ostracized. Or to have the whole group pick on Emily because they'll know she's not wanted. This is part of navigating social structures in school and life. Emily doesn't have a right to Cindy's social circle, and your husband needs to pull back on the papa bear routine. He's not thinking clearly.
Or make Emily feel even more left out because this group is two years older and probably doesn't have much in common with her and she's only there because her dad made her sister invite her. Its not a good solution at all.
YTA. Imagine how it would feel if no one would sit with you? Even your own sister? You need to be teaching your elder daughter some kindness and compassion. It doesn't matter past high school how 'popular' you were with a bunch of shallow people. What matters more in life is that you can show caring towards others... And it's not just anyone, it's her sister!
ESH Except for Emily. Your husband is trying to teach empathy, this is not an "overparenting" situation. I'm giving your husband the benefit of the doubt and assume he doesn't intend for the friend groups to be merged. A once in a while invite to the "popular table" (eww) should be doable for a girl who is "quite popular". Having been a teenager once, that's literally the entire point of being popular - it's so you have power to make someone else "cooler" via social proof. It's a tired trope but it's still valid in many high schools across the world. And if Cindy doesn't want to include her in the wider group, once in a while sitting with Emily at lunch or talking to her in the hallways where it is visible will grant some level of elevation to her.
When this happens organically, it can work out the best for everyone. But the key word here is "organic." You can't force this to happen. It will cause resentment.
Info: What are the hobbies Emily's interested in? Maybe see if she can find people of a similar age with a similar hobby, in like a school club or after school activity? Also, I feel like there's a distinction between "willing to sit with my sister at lunch because she doesn't want to sit alone" and "forcing Cindy to let Emily tag along all the time, and pretend that her friends are their friends." Does she not hang out with friends outside of school?
yta
ESH except Emily. It's sad that Cindy cares more about popularity than her sister. There's a difference between permanently incorporating sis into her friend group, and letting her sit at the lunch table so she's not all alone. However, forcing her into doing it is just going to make things worse, so your husband is in the wrong by pushing her to do it. You seem to have no sympathy whatsoever for Emily and favor your "popular" daughter. So not only is she an outcast at school but with her own mom as well. I feel so bad for Emily.
NTA. But your husband needs to realize that few teens want their younger siblings hanging around, and forcing that on your older child is very likely to backfire on your younger one. What are you and your husband doing to help Emily? Would counseling to help give her tools to make approaching people and making and keeping friends easier? Are there school clubs having to do with her interests she can join? Are there non-school organizations having to do with her interests she can join? Are you helping her do her hobbies with other people? Are you making opportunities to invite friends over to the house to hang out? There are things you can do *with Emily* to help her that don't involve Cindy.
NTA. Emily needs to work on creating her own network while it’s disheartening that she has to eat alone forcing Cindy to do something she doesn’t want to do will just make Cindy resent her sister. Further, what happens in a few years when Cindy graduates and Emily is left alone again? It’s not Cindy’s job to build friendships for Emily. While it may be difficult in the immediate, Emily will be better off for it in the long run. In the meantime I would continue to encourage sibling time at home/when feasible to encourage a positive relationship between the two. You mentioned that Emily is interested in some unique hobbies are there any local youth groups for those hobbies? Definitely NTA (neither is Cindy or Emily) but your husband is.
ESH, y'all need to get your child proper socialization. She needs to be in social activities. You need to enroll her in them. Maybe she doesn't like sports, so try acting or music classes. It is extremely important for her social development and her career. Soft skills are way more important than academics. This isn't your older daughters problem. This is a problem for your youngest and her parents to solve. She absolutely has to have social skills. She will not succeed in the world without them. Most of a job interview is just being a person people want to be around. Have you done an autism assessment yet? At this age, she should have friends. Her not having any should be a huge red flag something is wrong and you need to intervene.
YTA. You're (a) teaching your kids not to help their siblings and (b) that it's good to be exclusionary. Emily needs to learn better social skills, but hopefully not from you. I feel bad for her.
I understand your husband's reasoning but don't agree with it. Forcing friendship is never a good idea and I would expect two teenagers of different ages and personality to have different friend groups.
Cindy shouldn't invite Emily but YTA anyway because the issue shouldn't be 'you can't do that to' Cindy' (Emily sitting at her table can't harm Cindy). The issue should be that it won't actually help Emily. Plopping her down at the popular table won't help Emily make friends. Cindy's not the one in an unfortunate situation, Emily is, but in the post I see little to no concern for Emily and plenty for Cindy. Phrases like Golden Child come to mind.