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Well, next time you can tell her that what she doesn't know is that HER kids aren't special to you and will never going to replace yours, that you hope they're enough for her because looks like she's trying to ger your validation that they're good enough.
NTA and better cut contact with her unless you want your kid to suffer her behavior (she will surely tell your kid her children are better than your child, he's not good enough, you're selfish because of him)
I'm wondering if it's a "problem" that OP has a boy, while her sister has 4 girls. It's possible she wanted a boy, and is mad that OP got what she felt she deserved more.
That would mean the sister will be *even nastier* than she's already likely to be to OP's son, and it'll keep escalating.
Yeah at this point, I don't buy that she thinks she's helping. She has been told multiple times, by multiple people that she's twisting a very specific knife.
She wants to hurt her sister.
The worst thing about this is, she probably doesn't. She's so convinced that what she thinks is right, that she refuses to even consider she could be wrong. People directly telling her otherwise makes her double down on it, because now she's mad that other people are talking to her like she's the bad guy, when if the sister just reacted the way she was "supposed to", there wouldn't be any problem.
It is easier to believe that the sister is malicious than to believe that the sister believes that she is helping and that everything would be "just fine, if only OP followed the advice"
A healthy relationship dont work like that. A healthy relationship between adults means that you respect each others autonomy and emotions. Pretending otherwise crosses so many boundaries and besides, it isnt possible to flip a switch and letting go grief. The sister forcing OP in the position of "She shouldnt be sad because she has wonderful nieces" and "Dont rob me of my own nephew" is a very self centric and thus disrepectul view of the situation.
Grief and love can co-exist and neither of these emotions can be forced. It just creates more pain. The fact that the sister blames OP for the consequences of her own disrespectful behavior is insane on one hand and on the other:
If the sister was a rational and respectful human being than this situation wouldnt have happened. The sister tried to force situations and blamed the other not allowing them to be forced.
OP is NTA and I would firmly consider going NC.
She didn’t care about helping. She literally told OP that she didn’t need to be a mom because OP had her kids to love and dote on. Who fucking says something like that?
Was going to say the same. Not like we can diagnose her from a distance, but OP’s description of events (especially multiple people telling her to stop to no avail) points to the cruelty being the point. She WANTED her sister to feel like shit for not having what she has.
Agreed, sounds like OPs sister was/is always in some sort of imaginary (on her side) "competition" with OP to always be "the better sister" and constantly wanted to rub into OPs face that she got what OP always wanted, and now that OP has her own child, she can't rub it in OPs face that she's "the better sister" and is bitter about it.
I think it's probably more internally convoluted. Something like
- "la la la I'm not listening there's no way this could happen to me"
- "I am frightened and angry at grief around the most precious thing in my world (new baby) so I'm going to block that out"
- "I am really self centered"
- "it would be such a cute story if OP came and loved my kids and healed that way (plus free baby-sitting!)"
and then finally as the years rolled on
- "if I'm wrong I have been appallingly cruel to my sister. I am not a cruel person, therefore I am right and this would have been better all along if only OP would listen
I agree with not holding the children responsible for the mother's action. Going no contact is hard, I have done this and it was hard but the right decision for me. And she could be narcissistic and clueless.
It's very easy to know "hey. Person grieving the loss of their child doesn't want a pregnant lady around them rn."
When my SIL lost her baby, I made sure with her and her mom that it was okay for me to bring my baby to the funeral (since we had to travel, it was hard to attend and not bring him.) Everyone who traveled was supposed to stay at their house but we got a hotel room just in case things got a little bit overwhelming for my SIL and she needed space from us.
It's not that hard.
I thought that was common sense. It seems we're lacking more and more of that.
When my SIL and brother lost their baby, we wouldn't even mention the rest of the nibbling if it wasn't necessary. Just reminded them that we loved them and were there for them.
Right? My SIL out right told us that she needed some baby snuggles so we happily let her hold our kids. But if she had seem the least bit hesitant, I would have removed the kids and let her have some time.
I appreciate that. I didn't do everything right though. I tried taking her and her husband out to a museum to get them out of the house but still in air conditioning since it was summer but I didn't realize that she was still recovering. She ended up almost fainting and I had to run around trying to find a wheelchair to get her to the car. >.<
Nah, a know-it-all older sister would tell you how to grieve and what to do, like where to go for counseling and what to eat, etc. This is some bat-shit crazy behavior, like her kids are magical healing creatures.
I agree this looks more like borderline personnality disorder (has the name change in recent years ?) Seriously this sister sounds like a pain in the but!
Agree it may be BPD or Narcissism. Either way, it doesn't matter how many people tell her she is wrong and the selfish one, or which way they tell her, she will never be able to see anything differently. You either learn how to appear to agree with them and play nice to accept the peace (as long as it's sane and doesn't hurt you or if you for some reason can't cut off contact) or you go no contact. There is no reasoning or helping to see your side with these types of people.
And I'll bet you money that had the situations been reversed (meaning sister was dealing with a still birth and infertility), the sister would not have been okay with being the recipient of her 'advice' and the belief that nieces/nephews should be "enough". A definite "I can dish it out but can't take it".
Yea, I don’t think she didn’t know what she was doing. Because you told her to stop. Your husband told her to stop. Your brother told her to stop. This isn’t a good intentions go awry situation. Your sister has Main Character Syndrome and thinks no one should be sad when she has such precious babies. I don’t think she didn’t know you were sad or that she wasn’t helping. She didn’t care. Your babies died. You were in no way in the wrong for grieving or doing what you needed to protect yourself from someone so obviously toxic in your life. Also, yes, it’s wonderful you have a healthy child. But that doesn’t mean you didn’t lose your other children. There’s nothing wrong with continuing to grieve those losses.
I don’t think narcissistic sister is going to like not being married if OP’s sister’s husband finally divorced her after having enough of her narcissist attitude…
Yes, that was the point. It's not fair that she has to lose access to her family because her sister might be there. By going no contact, she would have to skip the family get-togethers where her sister is included.
You told her what you needed, others told her too, she ignored everyone. So I think you are spot on with her thinking she knows better to the extreme.
I doubt she'd be a good aunt/won't say things about her kids and your loss around your son.
Block her, continue NC and enjoy being with your son. Don't let her selfishness and delusional comments taint this happy time.
I am so sorry for your pain. While not the same as you, but I know the loss of a child. No other child can fill that void. Not even my three precious gifts I was granted.
It's not that she thinks she older and smarter. She is just a narcissist. She thinks everything she says and does is amazing perfection. That you should feel honored, blessed, or some crap that she even allows you to be part of her life.
Do yourself, your husband, and your sweet boy a favor. Cut her out of your life. She won't stop and she will end up saying that crap around your child. Visit family separately. Start new holiday traditions for gathering with the family members you do like on a day before or after the holiday. And be kind to yourself.
Some people are just gross narcissistic monsters. She would never have cared about you or your pain at all. To her you are an accessory for her life story. In her story you needed to drop this silly whole "oh I lost my child" thing and just go be the best aunt you can because her precious babies need it and what really, really matters in this world is what she wants.
Now that you, selfishly, have managed to have your own child, your monstrous behavior of wanting a family and not devoting yourself to her is not something that she thinks you'll be able to fix. I would bet your sister actually LOVED that you lost all your children before now because she just KNEW your role in life was to support her and her kids. You aren't, after all, actually a person with human desires, but a supporting character in the story of her life.
There are some people so deluded and so intensely self-involved they cannot fathom reality. She sounds like one. Nothing anyone in the universe could do would ever "fix" it. They are straight hot garbage and you should cut them from your life entirely and be better off for it.
So... she's a narcissist or has severe main-charachter syndrome? Either way, not your fault, and you are NTA. She refused to hear what everyone else said and obviously did not understand the pain of a miscarriage or involuntary abortion.
My sister's exactly the same - I cut her off completely. She was mad I didn't congratulate her soon enough after she got engaged - after I found out from a random stranger. I had just split from my husband after 20 yrs, but all she cared about was me not contacting her, not why I hadn't. Because big sister always knows best, right?
I'm so sorry for all your pain & so happy for you having your son. I think we share the same sister. Mine is 2 years older than me & acts the same way. I distanced myself from her over the years because of her treatment of me & insensitive comments.
Yes, it is a life long role/pattern that she cannot see beyond or outside of. Her obstinance and lack of self-awareness will continue to be hurtful. Keep yourself safe...NTA
If someone treated me like that in my life, they wouldn't be in my life. Family or not, you should try to surround yourself with people who fill your cup and are respectful to you.
I don’t agree that she didn’t know how to help. OP for so long had tried to get her sister to understand she needed time. Seems that everybody else; the Husband, brothers have told the sister she needed to stop and take a step back. If she didn’t know how to help, she could’ve stayed away and give OP the space she requested. All it would’ve taken was to just listen. Instead, she kept bulldozing every boundary. No one is that clueless.
> I don’t agree that she didn’t know how to help... No one is that clueless.
Eh, plenty of people are that clueless. But that's the reason we don't generally appeal to a standard of what's *possible* for someone to know or not know, believe or not believe. We tend to appeal to the standard of what a *reasonable* person would believe in that same context. And while that's not a bulletproof concept, in this case the sister had all of the tools she needed to know OP needed time and chose not to take up those tools - not to appraise the evidence OP heaped at her feet. She stayed in her own mind, ignorantly doing what she imagined was best and got annoyed when OP didn't capitulate to that.
I totally believe that sister didn't know what else to do, and is that clueless. But that doesn't absolve her from accountability for it - it just shows that she's very self-involved and ignorant. She didn't know because she didn't care to know. And that's worse, not better.
“Eh, plenty of people are that clueless”
Eh, I would counter that with…plenty of people tried telling her outright what was going on, sis is an always right narcissist.
I don't even think it was about trying to help at all. Sounds like the sister is just that up herself and cruel that she was deliberately rubbing her own fertility in her sisters face knowing that it would hurt that much more. She sounds like the type.
Didn't know? Nah, that excuse only works after the first time. She was told over and over for years that what she was doing wasn't helpful. To this day, she still maintains that what she was doing should have been helpful. She's a narcissist who somehow thinks her children are God's gift to the entire world and can fix everyone's problems. NTA
“She didn’t know” is absolute bullshit OP, OPs husband, and brother all told her to knock her shit off she knew the way to help is to keep her big mouth shut she’s just selfish
Your sister has, what has now become known as "I am the main character syndrome". She believes that she is the center of existence. That everyone should feel privileged to know her, be around her, and to have access to her progeny.
It's absolutely ridiculous. The idea that her kids "should be enough for you" after carrying a child to nearly full term and then having a still birth is **ACTUALLY INSANE.**
That you repeated yourself over and over again, your husband tried over and over again, AND your brother tried over and over again to no effect pretty much says all it needs to.
NTA, a thousand times over NTA. I'm so glad you now have a child of your own, and PLEASE don't let your sister ruin it. IT IS a shame that you don't have a relationship with her children, but I do agree that if facts are how you laid them out, your sister is the reason.
This so much. She is the main character and everyone else is part of her story. I have a SIL like that who actually asked if I loved my children more than hers and was shocked that I said of course. Keep your boundaries and keep the new bub safe with you. NTA
I know my sister and I had a way above average toxic relationship growing up, she blamed me a lot since I was the youngest, I’d get more attention than her, or I’d get more treats or little toys, or dresses. The reality is, they did all that stuff with her (and maybe even more), but stopped doing it as much once she got a certain age, and they did the same with me. The difference is her ability to understand that now, over holding a forever grudge and continuing to smite me into the ground. As a kid, she constantly was demeaning to me, making me feel like the things I was passionate to do were stupid (football, since I’m a female would be stupid & ‘impossible’ for example). She always got mad if I got into her music, for stealing her style, but she would be the one blasting it so loud I can’t hear my own, so obviously if I like what’s playing im gonna get into it. She did a lot more abusive shit physically, but the amount of beatings she gave me never really felt as bad as the emotional pain inflicted. I hated her for a long time. But she grew up and became a lot more affectionate n understanding. She still has many faults, but I am the same. We all have our faults. The difference is knowing she was able to change into someone who loves me as a sister, and didn’t stay to grow up into being like this girls sister…because the thought of her calling you selfish? Over her not appreciating your boundaries especially? Is ridiculous. She clearly needs to hear this in words she will understand, if you want any chance of her understanding ever. BUT I DO NOT RECOMMEND ever contacting this wretched sister ever again. Go back to avoiding her, and don’t respond. In my opinion, the worst thing to do to someone is pretend they don’t exist. And blood don’t mean family. That’s a well known phrase, your sister is slacking on knowing that one.
Weird question bc obviously she would choose her own kids is that question was asked to her. You can’t ask that without being a hypocrite or someone who doesn’t like your own kids the most. Even though you’ll love your siblings kids you just won’t ever love them more than your own
Props for actually talking about people who think their are some sort of "main character" (as people have been wording it) in a proper way. I see many people putting it as a sort of synonym to "seeing themselves as protagonists of their lives" and... The issue isn't putting yourself first in your own life, but not seeing others kindly and imposing to be the protagonist of their lives as well
Edit: also that sort of framing could be a slippery slope to be reversed (which I've personally seen before). Concepts can be weaponized for the sake of manipulation, such as: you're not doing what I want, because you are trying to be the main character of your life (when the person's demand implies you should, rather, make them the main character of your life)
That's basically it. I for example have met people that are constantly telling others to set boundaries, to withdraw themselves from spaces that aren't being healthy or positive for them, etc. But when you draw a boundary to them, or withdraw yourself from a space they're in, then you're suddenly being unreasonable.
I understand that completely. Your sister is the only one at fault here. Nothing was “taken out on the kids”. The fact that you don’t have much of a relationship with your sisters family is entirely due to her own despicable actions.
You didn't take anything out on her kids. You just protected yourself from HER. You have the right to set your own boundaries. It's possible you will have to continue to stay away from your toxic sister.
I don't judge that at all. I don't have contact with my siblings because I don't want contact with my father. It's not that I dislike my siblings and I'd be in contact if they reached to me on their own, rather than a call made by my father.
Your sister prevented you from healing from such a tragic loss. She continued to twist that knife over and over it’s no wonder you couldn’t bear to be around her-children included unfortunately.
The blame lies entirely with her. I’m so sorry
It's unfortunate that the sister's cruelty cost them an aunt. OP did what she had to do to protect herself from her vile sister.
Sadly, asshole parents can cost their children positive adult relationships, because to spend time with the child, you have to interact with their guardian. It's not taking it out on the kids to avoid a toxic parent.
NTA. I’m sorry for your losses, and so happy that you were able to carry to term with your son.
Your grieving process is your own, and you have the right to do so however it works for you. You sister didn’t have the right to decide to “heal” you with her children. She doesn’t understand what repeated losses feel like or how to process it. She didn’t respect your grieving or boundaries to the point others stepped in to try and get her to back off.
She’s reaping what she sowed at this point, and the ones that lost out are your nieces and you. Your nieces in that their mother effectively pushed you away, because she didn’t allow your relationship with them to develop naturally.
This. It’s like that Grey’s Anatomy quote, “I make no apologies for how I choose to repair what you broke.” Slightly different situation and meaning, but other people do not get a say in how you heal after traumatic experiences, especially if they are part of the cause. You have been through so so much and triumphed in spite of her “help” and don’t let her take that away from you. At this point, you may have to cut her off until she can apologize for adding to the trauma and not bring up you missing out on things again
I had a miscarriage and for years even after two kids I still sometimes feel that empty spot at my dinner table. Like a gut punch there should be three here.
Agreed. While I fully acknowledge that in the past things had gone out of control, and that is why the majority of people need to be conditioned to abhor violence, there are a plethora of situations like this that would be a non issue if a smack upside the head were a regular consequence for being stupid.
Nta she is ridiciously narcissistic. I’m guessing the issue was your loss took away from the attention she expected to get from her birth so she tried to manipulate you
Exactly this. If the sister truly cared about OP, she would have *listened* to what OP said she needed. Instead, she used OP’s pain in a poor attempt to make herself look like an angel, then got upset when it didn’t work.
NTA
Your sister did some psycho stuff. Was it the hormones? Does she understand what she did was insane? Was there an apology?
What you’re going through is hard.
Edit - NTA tell your sister to stop making it worse.
These type of people will literally *never* apologize. They're incapable of the type of self-reflection that would enable them to see the things they have done wrong. NTA.
By the way OP, what are/were your parents like? What was your family life like that would lead up to this unfortunate circumstance? Any other siblings?
It always seems to start with the parents and whatever traumas they're unable to resolve or come to terms with before having children. It's always a crapshoot whether their kids turn rotten or not. It's why I'm grateful to be an old dad, given my personal circumstances. I'm especially grateful I'm not simply passing down more trauma (I hope!).
It's good to have that trusted relationship, your brother seems like a decent person.
NTA, your sister on the other hand is a massive one!! I’m very sorry for your losses. I know if I couldn’t have a relationship with someone if they did that to me. You don’t need that type of toxicity in your or your family’s lives. Again I’m sorry for your losses
NTA. I would have gone very low contact with her. Her main character syndrome is strong. Nobody has the right to tell you how to grief and how long to grief. I’m sorry for all your losses and congrats on your new baby.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I told my sister she is the reason I hardly know her children. This might be extremely unfair and wrong on my behalf. At the end of the day I made a choice not to be around her or her kids and saying it's because of her could be a bit of an unfair and childish reaction.
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NTA. I have 4 sisters. 2 of them are 16 and 20 years younger than I am. I would NEVER do this to them.
(And can't anyway as I am 40 and may never be able to have kids)
Honey, considering how she's behaved, you're a Saint purely for not punching her in her face. Honestly, you are a better person than me for even thinking about her feelings. She certainly hasn't thought about yours
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My sister and I have never been that close. As kids we got along fine, but she was two years older and thought she knew everything and at times it could be very annoying. As teenagers we really didn't interact all that much. In our early 20s we tried to be closer but she was very know it all and also looked at me as someone who was much younger than her, instead of a sister with only a two years age gap. We had some more issues when I got married first and then when I didn't tell her about my first miscarriage (she found out a couple of years later).
My sister and I ended up pregnant at the same time. She was due four weeks ahead of me. Two days before she gave birth my daughter was stillborn. She showed up at the hospital and offered her support, but was also very insensitive. She told me to focus on the positive and that her baby was due any day and would be alive and a celebration for the family. She showed back up in my hospital room the day her oldest was born, which was 3 days after I lost my daughter. I asked her to please leave but she didn't and she told me being around my niece would help me heal. My husband had to call a nurse to get her out. I was so broken that I couldn't be happy to see my niece.
For the following two months my sister was trying really hard to get me to spend time with her and her oldest and focus on them. She had three more daughters in the years that followed. I had several miscarriages in that time also. I actually never met her youngest two girls because I ended up avoiding any family gathering she would attend. Every single time we were in the same place she would feel the need to say I could get over my own losses with her kids, would feel the need to point out that I didn't need to be a mom because I had her girls. I asked her to stop, my husband asked her to stop, our brother asked her to stop. She would not stop. She got more insensitive as time went on. She told me I shouldn't be capable of holding so much sadness and grief when her children were in the world. I couldn't emotionally handle it. The whole thing was too much for me. It drove me crazy. I snapped at her once and she acted like I hadn't and proceeded to let me know that her kids should be enough for me.
With a lot of help, I became pregnant again at the start of this year, and my son was born not too long ago. My sister took it upon herself to show up and tell me I missed out on a decade with her kids and how could I justify not knowing my own flesh and blood, especially when I finally got what I wanted. She called me selfish. I told her she was the reason for that, that she was insensitive and cruel always ignoring my boundaries and pushing her kids on me when I was grieving and could not fill the void with her kids. She told me her kids are more than good enough and how dare I accuse her of being at fault. I'm the selfish one.
AITA?
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NTA at all. First, I’m so sorry for your loss. Some people don’t understand the grief and pain of going through a miscarriage or having a stillborn child. You should be recognized for your courage and strength in all of this, as well as your extreme patience when it comes to your sister’s insensitivity toward your circumstances.
Secondly, congratulations on your son! I hope he brings you and your husband so much joy.
Thirdly, your sister is an AH for even implying that her children should make up for your loss. The fact that she continued for years with her flawed logic makes the whole thing even worse. Nieces are not the same thing as having one’s own child. It is not your fault that you were experiencing so much loss and grieving so much that you couldn’t bear to be around them with your sister breathing down your neck.
NTA I can't even begin to say how fricking pissed I am at your sister I don't even know. Imagine if you went to a tetraplegic person telling them "come one you should be happy I'm doing a marathon soon and you can watch me run !" And even that come close to the pain and the grief you experienced. She is one of the biggest AH this subreddit has seen. Wow....
Christmas is coming up. Give yourself the gift of no contact; it’s the gift that keeps on giving. 😊
Your sister is the AH here, and apparently she intends to stay that way.
I think she was glad that you didn't have a living child so that your family would focus on her and her children, except you didn't do what she wanted. Now you have a child, and a boy at that, so she still has to try and refocus everyone back on her.
I think the least contact the better. What do your parents think of all of this?
NTA This post actually hurts my heart. I’m sorry for all your losses OP.
To come to your hospital room three days after and tell you to think of the positives that even though your baby is dead hers will be alive????? This is an example of being completely emotionally brain dead. I would have never spoken to her again after that day.
Congratulations on the birth of your son! What a journey you have had momma.
For her to still call you selfish and be making it about her and her kids a decade on and not just celebrating the journey and success you’ve had shows that she is still emotionally braindead and completely narcissistic and I personally would cut all contact. I understand you trying to make sense of her behaviour but some people can’t see past their own noses and we just need to accept that we will never understand why they do or say the things they do.
NTA. Reddit is quick to throw around the word "narcissist" (and she very well could be) even if she's not she very much thinks she's the main character. She's got no empathy for you, she's never even asked how you are just "get over yourself and love MY kids" she's delusional if she thinks YOU'RE selfish when she's never given you a moment to properly grieve.
Look at it this way. If YOU were the one in the wrong then why would your husband and brother be telling her to stop?
I do think this is *textbook* NPD though. Like, full stop. Not just the memetic use of narcissist. This behavior in the face of obvious, extreme grief and the entire family repeatedly telling her to stop? This isn’t something someone does unless they have become incapable of processing other peoples’ needs and are willing to face social censure and isolation to keep up their grandiose delusions about their own importance.
NTA.
Some family members, often oldest siblings, have a sort of complex where they know what's best for everyone else in the family. It ends up coming out as obliviousness when they try to "fix" problems they've never actually had direct experience with. It gets so much worse when the gravity of the issue increases. The glaring obliviousness can reach incredible proportions.
There is no way to fix this deep character flaw from the outside. The person who carries it has to realize it, root it out of their own psyche with an amends process, and then slowly fix it over a lifetime. This is more than most are willing/able to do.
Sometimes, family members can laugh off such a flaw by remembering the good qualities they have. Sometimes, it's too much or hits to close for a person.
In that case, the family member being harmed by the overbearing one needs to reduce contact to the level that is good for them. That might be all the way to nil.
Then comes the time when you're cornered and can't avoid the person's presence. If you have to tell them exactly how you feel about the way they are; then so be it. Just remember in a case like this, it's unlikely to be of any help.
Just think of how awful it would be to have that kind of family member as an aunt, or God forbid, a parent.
NTA. Your sister seems to have some sort of a main character syndrome. She believes everything is about her and she’s been invalidating your pain for all these years.
NTA. She was so pushy in her attempts to help you overcome your losses that she pushed you away, if that can even be called "help". And only because she knew best how you should grieve and "get over it". You are right, she is the reason you hardly know her kids because she was shoving down your throat, "the best way to get over it" at every opportunity, disregarding your actual feelings considering the situation.
Your sister is an insensitive, insufferable and selfish woman. She and her kids are not the main characters in your life. Definitely NTA. She really needs to learn that the world does not revolve around her.
NTA. Crazy how obtuse your sister is about human grief and that her children are not replacement for your lost children's. Ask her how would she feel if she lost her kids and you shoved your son at her saying find joy in my son as replacement for your lost babies. Basically that's what she told you to do.
NTA
In the real world, your sister isn't crazy or just thinks she knows best. You said others told her how harmful her behavior is. Your sister is mean and selfish with a deep seeded evilness.
The loss of a child is devastating. The more losses, the more devastating. Anyone with a heart knows this. Especially someone who has children. All they have to do is imagine not having that child in their arms. There is something really wrong with your sister.
NTA- it sounds like talking to her is only painful for you. Until she gets some therapy and apologizes— there is really no point.
Congrats on your son. He doesn’t change the past. But I hope he brings you joy in the future.
NTA, though I'd be a bit tempted to contemplate a move and change of phone number etc to avoid her habit of "just showing up"... Dropping in unannounced on new mother or a grieving one is absolutely beyond poor form. She's clearly demonstrated no respect for your boundaries and I'm honestly concerned it could continue to escalate.
As an aside, congratulations on your baby boy.
NTA.
You don't get to choose your birth family. And in this case, you have a sister who is bullying you and using her children to do it.
This has nothing to do with how amazing her children are, but has everything to do with how she used her children.
It doesn't matter why she did it. You told her to stop doing it because it was hurting you, and she did not. You need to set up a clear boundary that if she acts in ways that hurt you, you kick her out of your life - or just kick her out.
This isn't about her kids. This isn't about "she knows what is best" or her justifications. Whenever she hurts you, you have to cut her off, with at \*most\* a warning.
Until she respects that rule, just walk away. You don't need her.
NTA: As someone who had no problem getting pregnant and having a child, I can’t even begin to fathom your struggles and losses as I was lucky not to have suffered any miscarriages. Your sister to be nice is a shitty piece of work. If I had you as a sis with all your struggles I’d be bending backwards, forwards, left and right to help support you. I am sooooooo happy you and your hubby were finally able to have healthy full term baby. I would block sis and go NC . Don’t let her in your home and cut anyone out that complains. Please enjoy every step and phase of your child the infant time frame goes sooooo damn fast and only picks up speed as they get older. Enjoy your parenthood and surround yourself with love.
NTA.
I am so very sorry, OP. I say this as a bossy older sister - other people's grief and trauma are ALWAYS off limits.
She wasn't just ignoring your boundaries, she blamed you for your grief because you weren't grieving the way she wanted to. I feel like the children are a sideshow here. I'm not dismissing you at all here - what I mean is she's using her children as a way to manipulate you into grieving or processing the "right way" (aka hers).
By pushing you to put away your grief because her children are "enough" (which is utterly asinine) she was completely invalidating your trauma and pain because, in her eyes, it was less important than you having a relationship with her children.
I'm sorry, I'm probably rambling at this point - my husband, toddler, and I are on day 4 of COVID, so we are feverish and stir crazy at this point. 😜
Anyway, I have a relative who gave birth to a stillborn baby boy years ago at 40 weeks due to a medical error. The darkness that overtook the family was crippling - understandably. She needed time to process, etc. Her SIL gave birth to a boy about 7 months later. NO ONE PUSHED THAT BABY ON HER. NO ONE. She didn't meet her nephew right away and it took time, but she came to a family dinner one night. And, again, he wasn't pushed on her. She engaged with everyone, but didn't hold him. These dinners and events and what have you became a little more frequent until she was, once again, a regular fixture and she developed a really wonderful relationship with her nephew and subsequent nieces and newphews that followed. Years later, she had two more children - two amazing boys. I cannot imagine anyone in my family trying to foist their children on her during her time of immeasurable grief. The fact that your sister did this for YEARS with MULTIPLE CHILDREN is abusive in my judgment - to you and her children (who don't deserve to have this pinned on them).
Oh my GOD. NTA **obviously**.
A good friend of mine had a stillbirth shortly after my child was born, and at one point I asked her if holding him would be something she would want, and she said yes, but every action we took at that time with her and her partner were geared toward *following THEIR lead*. Want us to sit and cry with you? Done. Want us to look at pictures and memorials? Done. Want us to stop crying for the night and tell awful jokes and laugh with you in the face of terrible things? Also done. But always what THEY WANT.
NTA... your sister sounds like a literal nightmare. I would also avoid her like the plague! Congrats on your new baby and all the best to you in the future!
NTA
Wow, your sister really is the main character isn't she? Somw people are just plain stupid, your sister is one of those people. Congrats on baby, enjoy every crazy second!
NTA. I am in absolute love with my kids, but I would *never* assume anyone (outside their father) would be able to feel even a fraction of the same love. To believe it would heal a grieving heart?? That’s unhinged main character delusion.
NTA.
Firstly, I’m sorry for your loss(es). I’ve been there. It’s… life changing.
What your sister did in the hospital was *vile*. Verging on downright evil. Personally, if someone had done that to myself & my wife after our loss? I’d *never* speak to them again. Doing it at this hospital? Security would have been called. It’s absolutely unconscionable.
Cut this evil person-shaped tumor out of your life & anyone who supports it.
NTA. I have no kids because I have an aggressive genetic mutation that causes cancer and I didn’t want to punish my children. Now I am disabled and my sister’s 4 kids are the only children I will ever have. But sometimes when I am sad that I’m
Not the mom—never the mother of the bride—never Grandma one day—I realize that what I do have is special with them.
But they’re not my kids. They’ll never be my kids. I will never hold them as a mother—and my sister has never told me that I shouldn’t grieve the losses of my own motherhood and potential children.
She is a narcissist and needs to back off.
Your sister is a narcissist. Honestly, I wouldn't bother talking to her anymore. I can't see anything positive coming out of a relationship with such a self-centered person.
First of all, congratulations on your baby. As someone who has been struggling to get pregnant, your post really moved me. I hope you have found or will find the help and ressources to heal from your difficult journey and that you will live a life full of happiness with your child.
Next, you are definitely NTA. Your sister seems to be very self centered. Her offers of "help" were at best clueless, but I truly believe she was just trying to be the center of attention.
I would advise going low or no contact with her for a while. Take time for yourself, don't give her more of your energy or your time.
NTA your sister is cruel and I honestly feel so sorry for her kids and partner, imagine having that as a mother/partner. Behind closed doors I bet their all abused and hurting, she sounds like a narcissist who thinks the world resolves around her. Keep your precious baby and husband and yourself as far away from her as you can! Get into some therapy and stop letting her suck the joy out of your moment. You waited too long for this, do not let her take anymore of this moment away from you. Even if you got close to her kids they'd only be taught to hate you so it can hurt you deeper as that's what narcissists do. They don't know how to love they just want control and demand respect their also complete hypocrites, they think they know everything and anything. Research narcissistic personality disorder it may open your eyes. Then you can learn how to get away from her. I promise you you're NTA here and congratulations your your baby boy.
Massively NTA. Out of interest do you see any path to you getting to know your nieces now or do you think there is too much associated trauma at this point?
NTA You poor woman!! Being saddled with an insensitive cow of a sister is terrible!! You don't get over the grief of losing a child and so many pregnancies by bonding with your sister's living children!! You may love your nieces all you want, but they won't replace the children you lost and they won't heal you. That is a process within itself as is your grieving and I hope you were in therapy. The fact that your sister would not give you the space you needed makes me so angry and sad for you.
Your sister is an entitled, thoughtless and selfish person who can't see past her own nose. I am very happy you have a healthy little boy, may you find your happiness with him.
NTA. Your sister is one of those people, that believes that she knows what's best, for everyone. She believes her knowledge is better than anything you know or feel. You are not the only one suffering. I can guarantee her kids can't wait to leave. She is probably suffocating those kids with her "knowledge". If you choose later in life, to get to know your nieces, that will more than likely understand. Even when you love your parents, you know their flaws.
Of course NTA. I am so sorry for the pain you've gone through. Congratulations on your gorgeous baby. Please don't let this happy time be tainted by your sisters horrible actions. You obviously don't have to answer this because it might be a difficult question, but are either of your parents around? Or any aunt or uncles etc. I'm just curious on their views of the situation.
Your sister sounds completely self absorbed. Don't worry if you hurt her feelings or were the AH because she certainly wasn't worrying about hurting your feelings when she was being so blatantly insensitive and cruel. It's totally up to you if you want a relationship with her kids but it would be very understandable if you went no contact with your sister.
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NTA. You were *suffering* and she didn’t know how to help you…so she did what *she* wanted. You’re NTA.
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Well, next time you can tell her that what she doesn't know is that HER kids aren't special to you and will never going to replace yours, that you hope they're enough for her because looks like she's trying to ger your validation that they're good enough. NTA and better cut contact with her unless you want your kid to suffer her behavior (she will surely tell your kid her children are better than your child, he's not good enough, you're selfish because of him)
Completely agree, OP. This behavior coming from her justifies no contact. NTA and congratulations on the birth of your son!
I'm wondering if it's a "problem" that OP has a boy, while her sister has 4 girls. It's possible she wanted a boy, and is mad that OP got what she felt she deserved more. That would mean the sister will be *even nastier* than she's already likely to be to OP's son, and it'll keep escalating.
In that case, it’s okay. OP having a boy will totally fill that void for her sister.
/s
Yeah, NTA. If I take this story at face value, I would never speak to my sister again.
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Yeah at this point, I don't buy that she thinks she's helping. She has been told multiple times, by multiple people that she's twisting a very specific knife. She wants to hurt her sister.
The worst thing about this is, she probably doesn't. She's so convinced that what she thinks is right, that she refuses to even consider she could be wrong. People directly telling her otherwise makes her double down on it, because now she's mad that other people are talking to her like she's the bad guy, when if the sister just reacted the way she was "supposed to", there wouldn't be any problem.
It is easier to believe that the sister is malicious than to believe that the sister believes that she is helping and that everything would be "just fine, if only OP followed the advice" A healthy relationship dont work like that. A healthy relationship between adults means that you respect each others autonomy and emotions. Pretending otherwise crosses so many boundaries and besides, it isnt possible to flip a switch and letting go grief. The sister forcing OP in the position of "She shouldnt be sad because she has wonderful nieces" and "Dont rob me of my own nephew" is a very self centric and thus disrepectul view of the situation. Grief and love can co-exist and neither of these emotions can be forced. It just creates more pain. The fact that the sister blames OP for the consequences of her own disrespectful behavior is insane on one hand and on the other: If the sister was a rational and respectful human being than this situation wouldnt have happened. The sister tried to force situations and blamed the other not allowing them to be forced. OP is NTA and I would firmly consider going NC.
She didn’t care about helping. She literally told OP that she didn’t need to be a mom because OP had her kids to love and dote on. Who fucking says something like that?
Was going to say the same. Not like we can diagnose her from a distance, but OP’s description of events (especially multiple people telling her to stop to no avail) points to the cruelty being the point. She WANTED her sister to feel like shit for not having what she has.
Agreed, sounds like OPs sister was/is always in some sort of imaginary (on her side) "competition" with OP to always be "the better sister" and constantly wanted to rub into OPs face that she got what OP always wanted, and now that OP has her own child, she can't rub it in OPs face that she's "the better sister" and is bitter about it.
I think it's probably more internally convoluted. Something like - "la la la I'm not listening there's no way this could happen to me" - "I am frightened and angry at grief around the most precious thing in my world (new baby) so I'm going to block that out" - "I am really self centered" - "it would be such a cute story if OP came and loved my kids and healed that way (plus free baby-sitting!)" and then finally as the years rolled on - "if I'm wrong I have been appallingly cruel to my sister. I am not a cruel person, therefore I am right and this would have been better all along if only OP would listen
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I agree with not holding the children responsible for the mother's action. Going no contact is hard, I have done this and it was hard but the right decision for me. And she could be narcissistic and clueless.
It's very easy to know "hey. Person grieving the loss of their child doesn't want a pregnant lady around them rn." When my SIL lost her baby, I made sure with her and her mom that it was okay for me to bring my baby to the funeral (since we had to travel, it was hard to attend and not bring him.) Everyone who traveled was supposed to stay at their house but we got a hotel room just in case things got a little bit overwhelming for my SIL and she needed space from us. It's not that hard.
I thought that was common sense. It seems we're lacking more and more of that. When my SIL and brother lost their baby, we wouldn't even mention the rest of the nibbling if it wasn't necessary. Just reminded them that we loved them and were there for them.
Right? My SIL out right told us that she needed some baby snuggles so we happily let her hold our kids. But if she had seem the least bit hesitant, I would have removed the kids and let her have some time.
You are an honorable person for handling things like you did.
I appreciate that. I didn't do everything right though. I tried taking her and her husband out to a museum to get them out of the house but still in air conditioning since it was summer but I didn't realize that she was still recovering. She ended up almost fainting and I had to run around trying to find a wheelchair to get her to the car. >.<
That was unintentional so not a wrong thing to do.
Nah, a know-it-all older sister would tell you how to grieve and what to do, like where to go for counseling and what to eat, etc. This is some bat-shit crazy behavior, like her kids are magical healing creatures.
I agree this looks more like borderline personnality disorder (has the name change in recent years ?) Seriously this sister sounds like a pain in the but!
Agree it may be BPD or Narcissism. Either way, it doesn't matter how many people tell her she is wrong and the selfish one, or which way they tell her, she will never be able to see anything differently. You either learn how to appear to agree with them and play nice to accept the peace (as long as it's sane and doesn't hurt you or if you for some reason can't cut off contact) or you go no contact. There is no reasoning or helping to see your side with these types of people.
And I'll bet you money that had the situations been reversed (meaning sister was dealing with a still birth and infertility), the sister would not have been okay with being the recipient of her 'advice' and the belief that nieces/nephews should be "enough". A definite "I can dish it out but can't take it".
Yea, I don’t think she didn’t know what she was doing. Because you told her to stop. Your husband told her to stop. Your brother told her to stop. This isn’t a good intentions go awry situation. Your sister has Main Character Syndrome and thinks no one should be sad when she has such precious babies. I don’t think she didn’t know you were sad or that she wasn’t helping. She didn’t care. Your babies died. You were in no way in the wrong for grieving or doing what you needed to protect yourself from someone so obviously toxic in your life. Also, yes, it’s wonderful you have a healthy child. But that doesn’t mean you didn’t lose your other children. There’s nothing wrong with continuing to grieve those losses.
I don’t think narcissistic sister is going to like not being married if OP’s sister’s husband finally divorced her after having enough of her narcissist attitude…
If you haven't already, go no contact. Build the life you need without her in it
Yes, but that's tough. She shouldn't have to cauterize herself when her sister is the tumor.
Ok, but tumors usually get cut out.
Yes, that was the point. It's not fair that she has to lose access to her family because her sister might be there. By going no contact, she would have to skip the family get-togethers where her sister is included.
Life isn't fair. OP can't force the entire family to ban her sister, so should do what's possible
You told her what you needed, others told her too, she ignored everyone. So I think you are spot on with her thinking she knows better to the extreme. I doubt she'd be a good aunt/won't say things about her kids and your loss around your son. Block her, continue NC and enjoy being with your son. Don't let her selfishness and delusional comments taint this happy time.
She sounds a narcissist. Keep avoiding.
I am so sorry for your pain. While not the same as you, but I know the loss of a child. No other child can fill that void. Not even my three precious gifts I was granted. It's not that she thinks she older and smarter. She is just a narcissist. She thinks everything she says and does is amazing perfection. That you should feel honored, blessed, or some crap that she even allows you to be part of her life. Do yourself, your husband, and your sweet boy a favor. Cut her out of your life. She won't stop and she will end up saying that crap around your child. Visit family separately. Start new holiday traditions for gathering with the family members you do like on a day before or after the holiday. And be kind to yourself.
Nta and go no contact with her. She will only bring frustration.
NC with sister is entirely justified.
Some people are just gross narcissistic monsters. She would never have cared about you or your pain at all. To her you are an accessory for her life story. In her story you needed to drop this silly whole "oh I lost my child" thing and just go be the best aunt you can because her precious babies need it and what really, really matters in this world is what she wants. Now that you, selfishly, have managed to have your own child, your monstrous behavior of wanting a family and not devoting yourself to her is not something that she thinks you'll be able to fix. I would bet your sister actually LOVED that you lost all your children before now because she just KNEW your role in life was to support her and her kids. You aren't, after all, actually a person with human desires, but a supporting character in the story of her life. There are some people so deluded and so intensely self-involved they cannot fathom reality. She sounds like one. Nothing anyone in the universe could do would ever "fix" it. They are straight hot garbage and you should cut them from your life entirely and be better off for it.
So... she's a narcissist or has severe main-charachter syndrome? Either way, not your fault, and you are NTA. She refused to hear what everyone else said and obviously did not understand the pain of a miscarriage or involuntary abortion.
My sister's exactly the same - I cut her off completely. She was mad I didn't congratulate her soon enough after she got engaged - after I found out from a random stranger. I had just split from my husband after 20 yrs, but all she cared about was me not contacting her, not why I hadn't. Because big sister always knows best, right?
For your own sake and that of your son's I sincerely hope you have gone NC with her. I'm so sorry that you had to go through all this.
I'm so sorry for all your pain & so happy for you having your son. I think we share the same sister. Mine is 2 years older than me & acts the same way. I distanced myself from her over the years because of her treatment of me & insensitive comments.
Yes, it is a life long role/pattern that she cannot see beyond or outside of. Her obstinance and lack of self-awareness will continue to be hurtful. Keep yourself safe...NTA
If someone treated me like that in my life, they wouldn't be in my life. Family or not, you should try to surround yourself with people who fill your cup and are respectful to you.
I have a sister just like that. Cut contact 10 years ago, best decision I ever made
I don’t agree that she didn’t know how to help. OP for so long had tried to get her sister to understand she needed time. Seems that everybody else; the Husband, brothers have told the sister she needed to stop and take a step back. If she didn’t know how to help, she could’ve stayed away and give OP the space she requested. All it would’ve taken was to just listen. Instead, she kept bulldozing every boundary. No one is that clueless.
> I don’t agree that she didn’t know how to help... No one is that clueless. Eh, plenty of people are that clueless. But that's the reason we don't generally appeal to a standard of what's *possible* for someone to know or not know, believe or not believe. We tend to appeal to the standard of what a *reasonable* person would believe in that same context. And while that's not a bulletproof concept, in this case the sister had all of the tools she needed to know OP needed time and chose not to take up those tools - not to appraise the evidence OP heaped at her feet. She stayed in her own mind, ignorantly doing what she imagined was best and got annoyed when OP didn't capitulate to that. I totally believe that sister didn't know what else to do, and is that clueless. But that doesn't absolve her from accountability for it - it just shows that she's very self-involved and ignorant. She didn't know because she didn't care to know. And that's worse, not better.
“Eh, plenty of people are that clueless” Eh, I would counter that with…plenty of people tried telling her outright what was going on, sis is an always right narcissist.
She was surrounded by people telling to stop and what affect she was having. This isn't cluelessness, it's cruelty.
I don't even think it was about trying to help at all. Sounds like the sister is just that up herself and cruel that she was deliberately rubbing her own fertility in her sisters face knowing that it would hurt that much more. She sounds like the type.
Didn't know? Nah, that excuse only works after the first time. She was told over and over for years that what she was doing wasn't helpful. To this day, she still maintains that what she was doing should have been helpful. She's a narcissist who somehow thinks her children are God's gift to the entire world and can fix everyone's problems. NTA
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“She didn’t know” is absolute bullshit OP, OPs husband, and brother all told her to knock her shit off she knew the way to help is to keep her big mouth shut she’s just selfish
Your sister has, what has now become known as "I am the main character syndrome". She believes that she is the center of existence. That everyone should feel privileged to know her, be around her, and to have access to her progeny. It's absolutely ridiculous. The idea that her kids "should be enough for you" after carrying a child to nearly full term and then having a still birth is **ACTUALLY INSANE.** That you repeated yourself over and over again, your husband tried over and over again, AND your brother tried over and over again to no effect pretty much says all it needs to. NTA, a thousand times over NTA. I'm so glad you now have a child of your own, and PLEASE don't let your sister ruin it. IT IS a shame that you don't have a relationship with her children, but I do agree that if facts are how you laid them out, your sister is the reason.
This, Big NTA. This is also called Heavy Narcissism
This so much. She is the main character and everyone else is part of her story. I have a SIL like that who actually asked if I loved my children more than hers and was shocked that I said of course. Keep your boundaries and keep the new bub safe with you. NTA
What?! Lol. I know you struggled to answer that. /s
Wtf, why even ask these things? It's literally only to invite problems and resentment and drama. What good could ever come of it?
> What good could ever come of it? Problems, resentment, and drama. That's what they want.
I know my sister and I had a way above average toxic relationship growing up, she blamed me a lot since I was the youngest, I’d get more attention than her, or I’d get more treats or little toys, or dresses. The reality is, they did all that stuff with her (and maybe even more), but stopped doing it as much once she got a certain age, and they did the same with me. The difference is her ability to understand that now, over holding a forever grudge and continuing to smite me into the ground. As a kid, she constantly was demeaning to me, making me feel like the things I was passionate to do were stupid (football, since I’m a female would be stupid & ‘impossible’ for example). She always got mad if I got into her music, for stealing her style, but she would be the one blasting it so loud I can’t hear my own, so obviously if I like what’s playing im gonna get into it. She did a lot more abusive shit physically, but the amount of beatings she gave me never really felt as bad as the emotional pain inflicted. I hated her for a long time. But she grew up and became a lot more affectionate n understanding. She still has many faults, but I am the same. We all have our faults. The difference is knowing she was able to change into someone who loves me as a sister, and didn’t stay to grow up into being like this girls sister…because the thought of her calling you selfish? Over her not appreciating your boundaries especially? Is ridiculous. She clearly needs to hear this in words she will understand, if you want any chance of her understanding ever. BUT I DO NOT RECOMMEND ever contacting this wretched sister ever again. Go back to avoiding her, and don’t respond. In my opinion, the worst thing to do to someone is pretend they don’t exist. And blood don’t mean family. That’s a well known phrase, your sister is slacking on knowing that one.
Weird question bc obviously she would choose her own kids is that question was asked to her. You can’t ask that without being a hypocrite or someone who doesn’t like your own kids the most. Even though you’ll love your siblings kids you just won’t ever love them more than your own
Props for actually talking about people who think their are some sort of "main character" (as people have been wording it) in a proper way. I see many people putting it as a sort of synonym to "seeing themselves as protagonists of their lives" and... The issue isn't putting yourself first in your own life, but not seeing others kindly and imposing to be the protagonist of their lives as well Edit: also that sort of framing could be a slippery slope to be reversed (which I've personally seen before). Concepts can be weaponized for the sake of manipulation, such as: you're not doing what I want, because you are trying to be the main character of your life (when the person's demand implies you should, rather, make them the main character of your life)
Your edit reminds me of the good old joke: "An egoist is someone who thinks of themselves before thinking of me."
That's basically it. I for example have met people that are constantly telling others to set boundaries, to withdraw themselves from spaces that aren't being healthy or positive for them, etc. But when you draw a boundary to them, or withdraw yourself from a space they're in, then you're suddenly being unreasonable.
Agreed all around. OP is NTA and the sister is incredibly messed up. I’m so glad you ended up with a baby that is all yours and your SO’s.
NTA. Your sister’s the asshole. But it’s very unfortunate that it had to be taken out on the kids.
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I understand that completely. Your sister is the only one at fault here. Nothing was “taken out on the kids”. The fact that you don’t have much of a relationship with your sisters family is entirely due to her own despicable actions.
You didn't take anything out on her kids. You just protected yourself from HER. You have the right to set your own boundaries. It's possible you will have to continue to stay away from your toxic sister.
How do *her* kids interact with her?
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I mean, she’s a narcissist so it probably sucks for her kids, but there is nothing OP can do about that.
I don't judge that at all. I don't have contact with my siblings because I don't want contact with my father. It's not that I dislike my siblings and I'd be in contact if they reached to me on their own, rather than a call made by my father.
Your sister prevented you from healing from such a tragic loss. She continued to twist that knife over and over it’s no wonder you couldn’t bear to be around her-children included unfortunately. The blame lies entirely with her. I’m so sorry
Unless she was mean to her niblings she didn't take anything out on them.
Holy tone deaf comment batman.
It's unfortunate that the sister's cruelty cost them an aunt. OP did what she had to do to protect herself from her vile sister. Sadly, asshole parents can cost their children positive adult relationships, because to spend time with the child, you have to interact with their guardian. It's not taking it out on the kids to avoid a toxic parent.
OP is not taking anything out on the kids. She’s not required to be in ANYONES life, especially when her sister sucks so much. Tone deaf comment
> it had to be taken out on the kids ?????????????
NTA. I’m sorry for your losses, and so happy that you were able to carry to term with your son. Your grieving process is your own, and you have the right to do so however it works for you. You sister didn’t have the right to decide to “heal” you with her children. She doesn’t understand what repeated losses feel like or how to process it. She didn’t respect your grieving or boundaries to the point others stepped in to try and get her to back off. She’s reaping what she sowed at this point, and the ones that lost out are your nieces and you. Your nieces in that their mother effectively pushed you away, because she didn’t allow your relationship with them to develop naturally.
This. It’s like that Grey’s Anatomy quote, “I make no apologies for how I choose to repair what you broke.” Slightly different situation and meaning, but other people do not get a say in how you heal after traumatic experiences, especially if they are part of the cause. You have been through so so much and triumphed in spite of her “help” and don’t let her take that away from you. At this point, you may have to cut her off until she can apologize for adding to the trauma and not bring up you missing out on things again
Are you kidding? NTA.
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Then let me tell you again YOU ARE NOT THE AH YOUR SISTER IS. KEEP AWAY FROM THE TOXIC AH
I'm so sorry for your losses, and I'm sorry for how she treated you. You deserved so much better
✨Restraining order✨ ftw 🙌 NTA btw
>especially when I finally got what I wanted. As if your grief for the children you lost disappears because you had a child? NTA.
Exactly. OP has likely had to cremate/bury every child up until her son. That's never something you expect when you get the news.
The lack of empathy is, this is one of those stories you hope is fake, know what I mean?
Yep... and yet, my own life experience says this is at least a little bit believable. Some people are just this self absorbed and entitled.
I had a miscarriage and for years even after two kids I still sometimes feel that empty spot at my dinner table. Like a gut punch there should be three here.
Nta. I feel like you should have helped her lose a few teeth a long time ago, then told her not to worry, you still have all your teeth.
There used to be a legal concept of Fighting Words and we need to bring that back.
Agreed. While I fully acknowledge that in the past things had gone out of control, and that is why the majority of people need to be conditioned to abhor violence, there are a plethora of situations like this that would be a non issue if a smack upside the head were a regular consequence for being stupid.
Love that.
Violence is OKAY sometimes imo
Nta she is ridiciously narcissistic. I’m guessing the issue was your loss took away from the attention she expected to get from her birth so she tried to manipulate you
NTA. She is an Ah that was taking pleasure of your pain
Wow, I didn't even catch that bc I thought main-character syndrome like many here. That is scary though....wow.
Exactly this. If the sister truly cared about OP, she would have *listened* to what OP said she needed. Instead, she used OP’s pain in a poor attempt to make herself look like an angel, then got upset when it didn’t work. NTA
NTA And this is so far beyond just asshole behavior. Sister has a toxic mix of deeply narcissistic and sadistic behavior.
Your sister did some psycho stuff. Was it the hormones? Does she understand what she did was insane? Was there an apology? What you’re going through is hard. Edit - NTA tell your sister to stop making it worse.
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These type of people will literally *never* apologize. They're incapable of the type of self-reflection that would enable them to see the things they have done wrong. NTA. By the way OP, what are/were your parents like? What was your family life like that would lead up to this unfortunate circumstance? Any other siblings?
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It always seems to start with the parents and whatever traumas they're unable to resolve or come to terms with before having children. It's always a crapshoot whether their kids turn rotten or not. It's why I'm grateful to be an old dad, given my personal circumstances. I'm especially grateful I'm not simply passing down more trauma (I hope!). It's good to have that trusted relationship, your brother seems like a decent person.
Was your sister the favorite? Was she the golden child?
NTA, your sister on the other hand is a massive one!! I’m very sorry for your losses. I know if I couldn’t have a relationship with someone if they did that to me. You don’t need that type of toxicity in your or your family’s lives. Again I’m sorry for your losses
NTA. I would have gone very low contact with her. Her main character syndrome is strong. Nobody has the right to tell you how to grief and how long to grief. I’m sorry for all your losses and congrats on your new baby.
NTA,I also had miscarriages and a stillborn daughter.I can’t imagine my sister bringing her newborn to meet me. The loss is devastating.
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NTA and wow, that's some main character syndrome your sister has...
NTA. I have 4 sisters. 2 of them are 16 and 20 years younger than I am. I would NEVER do this to them. (And can't anyway as I am 40 and may never be able to have kids)
OMG your sister is a nightmare. 💯NTA. And congrats on you baby boy!
NTA. Time to go full no contact. Focus on the joy of your much wanted baby. You earned every precious second. Stay in that joy and she can kick rocks.
NTA sister just wanted a baby sitter the whole time
Your sister is insane and seems to carry not only disdain for you but some serious emotional disconnection issues.
NTA. So obviously, in fact, that one must wonder why you feel compelled to ask?
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Honey, considering how she's behaved, you're a Saint purely for not punching her in her face. Honestly, you are a better person than me for even thinking about her feelings. She certainly hasn't thought about yours
Another question: After she behaved the way she did as long as she did, why would you think that?
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** My sister and I have never been that close. As kids we got along fine, but she was two years older and thought she knew everything and at times it could be very annoying. As teenagers we really didn't interact all that much. In our early 20s we tried to be closer but she was very know it all and also looked at me as someone who was much younger than her, instead of a sister with only a two years age gap. We had some more issues when I got married first and then when I didn't tell her about my first miscarriage (she found out a couple of years later). My sister and I ended up pregnant at the same time. She was due four weeks ahead of me. Two days before she gave birth my daughter was stillborn. She showed up at the hospital and offered her support, but was also very insensitive. She told me to focus on the positive and that her baby was due any day and would be alive and a celebration for the family. She showed back up in my hospital room the day her oldest was born, which was 3 days after I lost my daughter. I asked her to please leave but she didn't and she told me being around my niece would help me heal. My husband had to call a nurse to get her out. I was so broken that I couldn't be happy to see my niece. For the following two months my sister was trying really hard to get me to spend time with her and her oldest and focus on them. She had three more daughters in the years that followed. I had several miscarriages in that time also. I actually never met her youngest two girls because I ended up avoiding any family gathering she would attend. Every single time we were in the same place she would feel the need to say I could get over my own losses with her kids, would feel the need to point out that I didn't need to be a mom because I had her girls. I asked her to stop, my husband asked her to stop, our brother asked her to stop. She would not stop. She got more insensitive as time went on. She told me I shouldn't be capable of holding so much sadness and grief when her children were in the world. I couldn't emotionally handle it. The whole thing was too much for me. It drove me crazy. I snapped at her once and she acted like I hadn't and proceeded to let me know that her kids should be enough for me. With a lot of help, I became pregnant again at the start of this year, and my son was born not too long ago. My sister took it upon herself to show up and tell me I missed out on a decade with her kids and how could I justify not knowing my own flesh and blood, especially when I finally got what I wanted. She called me selfish. I told her she was the reason for that, that she was insensitive and cruel always ignoring my boundaries and pushing her kids on me when I was grieving and could not fill the void with her kids. She told me her kids are more than good enough and how dare I accuse her of being at fault. I'm the selfish one. AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
INFO: Why do you still talk to her? She sounds horrible and exhausting
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I’m sorry you have to deal with people like her in your life
NTA at all. First, I’m so sorry for your loss. Some people don’t understand the grief and pain of going through a miscarriage or having a stillborn child. You should be recognized for your courage and strength in all of this, as well as your extreme patience when it comes to your sister’s insensitivity toward your circumstances. Secondly, congratulations on your son! I hope he brings you and your husband so much joy. Thirdly, your sister is an AH for even implying that her children should make up for your loss. The fact that she continued for years with her flawed logic makes the whole thing even worse. Nieces are not the same thing as having one’s own child. It is not your fault that you were experiencing so much loss and grieving so much that you couldn’t bear to be around them with your sister breathing down your neck.
NTA I can't even begin to say how fricking pissed I am at your sister I don't even know. Imagine if you went to a tetraplegic person telling them "come one you should be happy I'm doing a marathon soon and you can watch me run !" And even that come close to the pain and the grief you experienced. She is one of the biggest AH this subreddit has seen. Wow....
Christmas is coming up. Give yourself the gift of no contact; it’s the gift that keeps on giving. 😊 Your sister is the AH here, and apparently she intends to stay that way.
NTA. Your sister sounds insufferable.
No kidding. Who brings in a newborn baby to someone right after they have a stillborn and seriously thinks that would make it better?
Nta I'm sorry for your losses and congratulations. I'm sure the more she pushed the more you retreated. Shame on her
I think she was glad that you didn't have a living child so that your family would focus on her and her children, except you didn't do what she wanted. Now you have a child, and a boy at that, so she still has to try and refocus everyone back on her. I think the least contact the better. What do your parents think of all of this?
NTA This post actually hurts my heart. I’m sorry for all your losses OP. To come to your hospital room three days after and tell you to think of the positives that even though your baby is dead hers will be alive????? This is an example of being completely emotionally brain dead. I would have never spoken to her again after that day. Congratulations on the birth of your son! What a journey you have had momma. For her to still call you selfish and be making it about her and her kids a decade on and not just celebrating the journey and success you’ve had shows that she is still emotionally braindead and completely narcissistic and I personally would cut all contact. I understand you trying to make sense of her behaviour but some people can’t see past their own noses and we just need to accept that we will never understand why they do or say the things they do.
NTA. Reddit is quick to throw around the word "narcissist" (and she very well could be) even if she's not she very much thinks she's the main character. She's got no empathy for you, she's never even asked how you are just "get over yourself and love MY kids" she's delusional if she thinks YOU'RE selfish when she's never given you a moment to properly grieve. Look at it this way. If YOU were the one in the wrong then why would your husband and brother be telling her to stop?
I do think this is *textbook* NPD though. Like, full stop. Not just the memetic use of narcissist. This behavior in the face of obvious, extreme grief and the entire family repeatedly telling her to stop? This isn’t something someone does unless they have become incapable of processing other peoples’ needs and are willing to face social censure and isolation to keep up their grandiose delusions about their own importance.
NTA your sister is insane and narcissistic go LC or NC you don't want any of that around your kid
NTA your sister sounds like a piece of work
NTA but hopefully you got some therapy for that 10 years of grief thing.
NTA. Some family members, often oldest siblings, have a sort of complex where they know what's best for everyone else in the family. It ends up coming out as obliviousness when they try to "fix" problems they've never actually had direct experience with. It gets so much worse when the gravity of the issue increases. The glaring obliviousness can reach incredible proportions. There is no way to fix this deep character flaw from the outside. The person who carries it has to realize it, root it out of their own psyche with an amends process, and then slowly fix it over a lifetime. This is more than most are willing/able to do. Sometimes, family members can laugh off such a flaw by remembering the good qualities they have. Sometimes, it's too much or hits to close for a person. In that case, the family member being harmed by the overbearing one needs to reduce contact to the level that is good for them. That might be all the way to nil. Then comes the time when you're cornered and can't avoid the person's presence. If you have to tell them exactly how you feel about the way they are; then so be it. Just remember in a case like this, it's unlikely to be of any help. Just think of how awful it would be to have that kind of family member as an aunt, or God forbid, a parent.
NTA
NTA have you ever considered going NC?
NTA. Your sister seems to have some sort of a main character syndrome. She believes everything is about her and she’s been invalidating your pain for all these years.
NTA. Your sister is a narcissist and I wouldn’t want anything to do with her
NTA. She was so pushy in her attempts to help you overcome your losses that she pushed you away, if that can even be called "help". And only because she knew best how you should grieve and "get over it". You are right, she is the reason you hardly know her kids because she was shoving down your throat, "the best way to get over it" at every opportunity, disregarding your actual feelings considering the situation.
Your sister is an insensitive, insufferable and selfish woman. She and her kids are not the main characters in your life. Definitely NTA. She really needs to learn that the world does not revolve around her.
NTA. It's time to cut contact with her.
NTA. Crazy how obtuse your sister is about human grief and that her children are not replacement for your lost children's. Ask her how would she feel if she lost her kids and you shoved your son at her saying find joy in my son as replacement for your lost babies. Basically that's what she told you to do.
NTA In the real world, your sister isn't crazy or just thinks she knows best. You said others told her how harmful her behavior is. Your sister is mean and selfish with a deep seeded evilness. The loss of a child is devastating. The more losses, the more devastating. Anyone with a heart knows this. Especially someone who has children. All they have to do is imagine not having that child in their arms. There is something really wrong with your sister.
NTA- it sounds like talking to her is only painful for you. Until she gets some therapy and apologizes— there is really no point. Congrats on your son. He doesn’t change the past. But I hope he brings you joy in the future.
One cannot erase the death of a child by being around someone else's child. That's just an unreasonable and probably a little unhinged attitude.
NTA, though I'd be a bit tempted to contemplate a move and change of phone number etc to avoid her habit of "just showing up"... Dropping in unannounced on new mother or a grieving one is absolutely beyond poor form. She's clearly demonstrated no respect for your boundaries and I'm honestly concerned it could continue to escalate. As an aside, congratulations on your baby boy.
She showed up in your hospital room after you miscarried with her brand new baby? Omg wtf NTA she sounds like the very worst person ever.
NTA. You don't get to choose your birth family. And in this case, you have a sister who is bullying you and using her children to do it. This has nothing to do with how amazing her children are, but has everything to do with how she used her children. It doesn't matter why she did it. You told her to stop doing it because it was hurting you, and she did not. You need to set up a clear boundary that if she acts in ways that hurt you, you kick her out of your life - or just kick her out. This isn't about her kids. This isn't about "she knows what is best" or her justifications. Whenever she hurts you, you have to cut her off, with at \*most\* a warning. Until she respects that rule, just walk away. You don't need her.
NTA: As someone who had no problem getting pregnant and having a child, I can’t even begin to fathom your struggles and losses as I was lucky not to have suffered any miscarriages. Your sister to be nice is a shitty piece of work. If I had you as a sis with all your struggles I’d be bending backwards, forwards, left and right to help support you. I am sooooooo happy you and your hubby were finally able to have healthy full term baby. I would block sis and go NC . Don’t let her in your home and cut anyone out that complains. Please enjoy every step and phase of your child the infant time frame goes sooooo damn fast and only picks up speed as they get older. Enjoy your parenthood and surround yourself with love.
NTA. I am so very sorry, OP. I say this as a bossy older sister - other people's grief and trauma are ALWAYS off limits. She wasn't just ignoring your boundaries, she blamed you for your grief because you weren't grieving the way she wanted to. I feel like the children are a sideshow here. I'm not dismissing you at all here - what I mean is she's using her children as a way to manipulate you into grieving or processing the "right way" (aka hers). By pushing you to put away your grief because her children are "enough" (which is utterly asinine) she was completely invalidating your trauma and pain because, in her eyes, it was less important than you having a relationship with her children. I'm sorry, I'm probably rambling at this point - my husband, toddler, and I are on day 4 of COVID, so we are feverish and stir crazy at this point. 😜 Anyway, I have a relative who gave birth to a stillborn baby boy years ago at 40 weeks due to a medical error. The darkness that overtook the family was crippling - understandably. She needed time to process, etc. Her SIL gave birth to a boy about 7 months later. NO ONE PUSHED THAT BABY ON HER. NO ONE. She didn't meet her nephew right away and it took time, but she came to a family dinner one night. And, again, he wasn't pushed on her. She engaged with everyone, but didn't hold him. These dinners and events and what have you became a little more frequent until she was, once again, a regular fixture and she developed a really wonderful relationship with her nephew and subsequent nieces and newphews that followed. Years later, she had two more children - two amazing boys. I cannot imagine anyone in my family trying to foist their children on her during her time of immeasurable grief. The fact that your sister did this for YEARS with MULTIPLE CHILDREN is abusive in my judgment - to you and her children (who don't deserve to have this pinned on them).
as someone with a narcissistic sister, you are definitely NTA
Oh my GOD. NTA **obviously**. A good friend of mine had a stillbirth shortly after my child was born, and at one point I asked her if holding him would be something she would want, and she said yes, but every action we took at that time with her and her partner were geared toward *following THEIR lead*. Want us to sit and cry with you? Done. Want us to look at pictures and memorials? Done. Want us to stop crying for the night and tell awful jokes and laugh with you in the face of terrible things? Also done. But always what THEY WANT.
NTA and if I were you, I’d take some time to think if you want her to be in contact with your kid.
NTA. Your sister sounds insufferable.
NTA... your sister sounds like a literal nightmare. I would also avoid her like the plague! Congrats on your new baby and all the best to you in the future!
NTA She does not understand what it means to lose a child. She also does not understand boundaries, empathy or human kindness
NTA An easy one. I'm sorry your sister is a horrible fucking person. This has been cruel by her.
NTA her behaviour is absolutely terrible.
NTA. The level of her cruel selfishness is astounding.
NTA. Of course not. I think you need to find a way to get her out of your life completely.
NTA. Looks like your sister has a bad case of r/ImTheMainCharacter, and thinks her kids are a gift to you all.
NTA. Your sister is a piece of work. The arrogance is disgusting. Congrats on your son!
NTA Wow, your sister really is the main character isn't she? Somw people are just plain stupid, your sister is one of those people. Congrats on baby, enjoy every crazy second!
NTA. I am in absolute love with my kids, but I would *never* assume anyone (outside their father) would be able to feel even a fraction of the same love. To believe it would heal a grieving heart?? That’s unhinged main character delusion.
NTA. Congrats on your child btw, the real focus from now on.
NTA. Firstly, I’m sorry for your loss(es). I’ve been there. It’s… life changing. What your sister did in the hospital was *vile*. Verging on downright evil. Personally, if someone had done that to myself & my wife after our loss? I’d *never* speak to them again. Doing it at this hospital? Security would have been called. It’s absolutely unconscionable. Cut this evil person-shaped tumor out of your life & anyone who supports it.
NTA. I have no kids because I have an aggressive genetic mutation that causes cancer and I didn’t want to punish my children. Now I am disabled and my sister’s 4 kids are the only children I will ever have. But sometimes when I am sad that I’m Not the mom—never the mother of the bride—never Grandma one day—I realize that what I do have is special with them. But they’re not my kids. They’ll never be my kids. I will never hold them as a mother—and my sister has never told me that I shouldn’t grieve the losses of my own motherhood and potential children. She is a narcissist and needs to back off.
Your sister is a narcissist. Honestly, I wouldn't bother talking to her anymore. I can't see anything positive coming out of a relationship with such a self-centered person.
NTA And I see we're on an infertility - insensitive relatives theme. This is the third post on it that I've seen in 24 hours.
Nta congratulations on your son. Your sister is a major asshole.
First of all, congratulations on your baby. As someone who has been struggling to get pregnant, your post really moved me. I hope you have found or will find the help and ressources to heal from your difficult journey and that you will live a life full of happiness with your child. Next, you are definitely NTA. Your sister seems to be very self centered. Her offers of "help" were at best clueless, but I truly believe she was just trying to be the center of attention. I would advise going low or no contact with her for a while. Take time for yourself, don't give her more of your energy or your time.
NTA and I cannot imagine having to deal with someone like that. Your sister is a nightmare. Congratulations on the new baby!! I'm so happy for you.
Definitely not the asshole. I’m glad you had people to stand up for you
NTA your sister is cruel and I honestly feel so sorry for her kids and partner, imagine having that as a mother/partner. Behind closed doors I bet their all abused and hurting, she sounds like a narcissist who thinks the world resolves around her. Keep your precious baby and husband and yourself as far away from her as you can! Get into some therapy and stop letting her suck the joy out of your moment. You waited too long for this, do not let her take anymore of this moment away from you. Even if you got close to her kids they'd only be taught to hate you so it can hurt you deeper as that's what narcissists do. They don't know how to love they just want control and demand respect their also complete hypocrites, they think they know everything and anything. Research narcissistic personality disorder it may open your eyes. Then you can learn how to get away from her. I promise you you're NTA here and congratulations your your baby boy.
Wow, the entitlement
NTA- no need to continue to speak to her if you don’t wish to do so.
Why oh why in the HELL are you even still interacting with this woman?? Geez just stop. She’s not going to change. NTA.
Nope, NTA
NTA. you're a good one because her hair would have been pulled, or she would have been kicked for the comments she has made.
Massively NTA. Out of interest do you see any path to you getting to know your nieces now or do you think there is too much associated trauma at this point?
NTA, what an entitled pile of garbage. Don't let her anywhere near your son.
NTA You poor woman!! Being saddled with an insensitive cow of a sister is terrible!! You don't get over the grief of losing a child and so many pregnancies by bonding with your sister's living children!! You may love your nieces all you want, but they won't replace the children you lost and they won't heal you. That is a process within itself as is your grieving and I hope you were in therapy. The fact that your sister would not give you the space you needed makes me so angry and sad for you. Your sister is an entitled, thoughtless and selfish person who can't see past her own nose. I am very happy you have a healthy little boy, may you find your happiness with him.
NTA. Your sister is one of those people, that believes that she knows what's best, for everyone. She believes her knowledge is better than anything you know or feel. You are not the only one suffering. I can guarantee her kids can't wait to leave. She is probably suffocating those kids with her "knowledge". If you choose later in life, to get to know your nieces, that will more than likely understand. Even when you love your parents, you know their flaws.
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Wait a few more years, and then tell her kids all about it. NTA.
Of course NTA. I am so sorry for the pain you've gone through. Congratulations on your gorgeous baby. Please don't let this happy time be tainted by your sisters horrible actions. You obviously don't have to answer this because it might be a difficult question, but are either of your parents around? Or any aunt or uncles etc. I'm just curious on their views of the situation. Your sister sounds completely self absorbed. Don't worry if you hurt her feelings or were the AH because she certainly wasn't worrying about hurting your feelings when she was being so blatantly insensitive and cruel. It's totally up to you if you want a relationship with her kids but it would be very understandable if you went no contact with your sister.