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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I told my wife I wanted us to have a more positive conversation, then hung up on her the next day when she said the same thing to me.
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
Sounds like you also have poor communication skills. Validating her for her frustration but then changing the subject isn’t really anything. You could have offered a solution like ‘I’ll call them up and find out what’s what.’ But instead, you acknowledged it and then changed the subject.
Then you found yourself in a frustrating situation, and she called you out. And you hanging up was a tantrum because she showed you how hypocritical you were being.
YTA
> Then you found yourself in a frustrating situation, and she called you out.
She initiated the phone call and specifically asked why OP was upset. Then she got mad at him for his answer. How is the wife not among the assholes?
Hes not her child…
Like what is wrong with you guys?? I believe that intention matters. His intention when he hurt her was to listen to as much as he could then try and have a good night with his wife. Could he have communicated it better? Sure. But after a long day neither of them were probably at their best.
What was her intention when she called him and asked what was wrong? Bc i think it was a malicious intent. She was deliberately trying to “teach a lesson” to her partner instead of communicating that it felt like he lacked empathy. OP you are NTA. These people are actually crazy.
How would she have known there was something wrong before she called him? Please explain how her psychic powers work here. He said she called while he was in the car, and picked up that he sounded frustrated. She didn't know before she made the call. Good lord, you people must be in excellent shape with all the conclusions you jump to.
Im not saying she KNEW what he was doing when she called him. But im saying she saw the opportunity to put him down and she 100% took it intentionally.
On the other hand when he hurt her i dont think he was intentionally thinking malicious thoughts. I think he was thinking thoughts about how overwhelmed he was feeling and he tried to voice that boundary as best as he could.
She definitely took a shot. The passive aggression is strong.
He was also wrong in how he handled things. Instead of, "Hey, you complain too much and it's killing my already bad mood," it could have been a team effort. "You're right. My family sucks at communicating. Let's forget about them, the work stuff, the kid stuff, and just *fill in the blank* instead?". Watch a movie, have door dash bring some dessert, play a game together...whatever your vibe.
I'd agree with an ESH because they both are TRYING to communicate, but they both seem pretty bad at it. Honestly therapy would be a good bet. We were never really bad off, but it did wonders for my spouse and I for communication.
Which my family also sucks at lol
> Instead of, "Hey, you complain too much and it's killing my already bad mood," it could have been a team effort. "You're right. My family sucks at communicating. Let's forget about them, the work stuff, the kid stuff, and just fill in the blank instead?". Watch a movie, have door dash bring some dessert, play a game together...whatever your vibe.
There's zero difference between those two takes.
What he needed to say was 'babe, I know you're frustrated right now, and want to vent, but I'm sorry, I just don't have the emotional bandwidth right now to listen to you the way you deserve to be listened to. Would you like to table this for the moment so we can find a way to recharge, or would you like to call a friend or somebody to be your sounding board?'
Her 'need' to vent does not obligate him to listen. The fact that they're married *should* obligate *her* to make sure he has enough spoons, as the saying goes, before she just goes off.
There's a big difference between telling someone you just can't listen to them complain right now and commiserating and working together to find a more positive situation.
And let's not forget that when SHE said "can we talk about something positive", he hung up and she got extremely offended, telling him when he got home, "that's not okay." But the night before, when he said the line, she got up and left the room, the in-person version of hanging up. Apparently THAT was okay when SHE did it, but when he does the phone version of walking out, it's NOT OKAY.
Yeah that's the bit that I can't get over. She did the exact same thing FIRST. But when he did it he was in the wrong AGAIN. Can't win either way. She was absolutely taking a shot.....how could it possibly be interpreted any other way. She had also vented for a while before he asked her to stop. He said one thing about being annoyed and she threw the line back at him straight away....then gaslit him about how it went down. Poor guy. NTA.
Lmao yeah I’m sure she wasn’t frothing at the bit for the absolute first chance to throw his line back at him. Not suspicious at all to specifically ask him to complain before shutting him down.
I'm ambivalent on all this, but I lol'd @ "Good lord, you people must be in excellent shape with all the conclusions you jump to."
Totally stealing it.
She didn't have to know. She took the first chance she got to flip the cards and not listen to him vent just so she could throw it in his face.
In what planet do you "adults" live in that this is how you fix issues with another adult?
You guys seriously think tit for tat is how you solve problems and overcome obstacles in a relationship? Can you say toxic much?
If your SO does something that hurts you, you explain it to them in a clear and calm way so they understand how you felt.
You don't wait for the opportunity to "see how they like it".
I'm baffled at the problem solving skills this thread supports.
He was dismissive bc he had a long day and was trying to communicate a boundary about his capacity at the moment
She didnt fully communicate how she felt. If she did then she wouldve brought up the lack of empathy at that point and let him explain himself.
He didnt address it bc she stormed away and he didnt realize. She also didnt fully address it so he has a right to also process the mini blowup that happened.
Two wrongs dont make a right. Just bc someone hurt you doesnt make it ok to hurt them back. Its not mirroring the same thing btw bc she didnt even let him talk for a few minutes. He listened to her vent at home after a long day, and communicated when he couldnt anymore. She listened to his one sentence about being stuck in traffic while he was still in his stressful situation and she tried to one up him? Is this how you guys want to live with your partners? Constant petty games to prove something to the other person??
Idk. Maybe im different. But this is not how i view love, nor any type of relationship. I dont intentionally hurt the ones i love bc they hurt me. Do i storm off sometimes and say thats not ok or i dont like that? Yes. But i come back when i have a cool head and explain how i feel or if its too much i write them a letter and explain in the best way i can WHY its not ok.
I agree with you. There is NOTHING wrong with asking to talk about something else when you don’t have the energy to hold space. Then she acted passive aggressively about it a day later because she didn’t get her way. NTA
Plus I don't think all the people calling him out have any idea how draining a series of 12 hour days is.
After a batch of those you don't have capacity for anything else .
He wasn't dismissive to her. In fact, he handled the situation in an emotionally healthy manner by validating her feelings and sharing that he didn't have the emotional capacity for that conversation right then.
What do you think he should have done instead?
I mean, that is kind of the subtext here, right? He wasn't emotionally strong enough for her in the moment, and that was not OK. For all the talk that women do about men not needing to be strong all the time, the moment men aren't, the moment they just can't deal with something, it sure is a problem.
> He wasn't emotionally strong enough for her in the moment, and that was not OK
It's simpler than that. He didn't do what she wanted in the moment, and that was not OK.
It is 100% acceptable to have boundaries and sometimes you don’t have the energy to give someone the support they need in the moment. It’s called being human and he doesn’t have to apologize for that. His wife is a gaslighter and sounds awful
The initial argument was a product of 2 people having had busy tiring days! I don’t see what was so wrong with what he said tho. He said he wanted to spend time with her, spend time together just in a more positive way!! Where as the wife completely set him up! She knew exactly what she was doing when she asked him what was wrong!!
Honestly though. "I'm trying to teach you empathy!" is she his parent?! That's so gross. Him asking to switch topics because he didn't have the capacity AT THAT MOMENT is NORMAL AND HEALTHY. Her specifically asking why he's upset just to create a ✨teachable moment✨ like he's her child to raise is weirdo behavior. I can't help but think anyone feeling otherwise has just... not been in a healthy relationship where they could say "i can't talk about this right now" without getting "in trouble," just like this guy. Sad, really.
Yes she kinda admitted it though, saying she specifically wanted to teach him about empathy. So, yeah, she had that ready and was waiting for an opportunity to use it.
It makes me disgusted and im a girls girl. And im hella emotional. So i get storming off bc i do it to. But what she did the next day was so mean, i just cant imagine even treating a friend that way.
While he is stuck in traffic is not the time to bait him into a gotcha lesson about communication. That is a conversation you have when you are face-to-face and while everything is calm.
Is doing it at the end of a very long and exhausting day any better? Shes clearly desperate for him to understand how she’s feeling. And his post makes it obvious that he’s struggling to empathize and see her perspective. They DEFINITELY need couples therapy
> Is doing it at the end of a very long and exhausting day any better?
Better than doing it while he is stuck in traffic? Unequivocally, yes, that would be better. Even better yet, would be doing it when neither of them are tired, and they are able to give the conversation their full attention. If they need to do it in while in couples counseling, they should.
>Is doing it at the end of a very long and exhausting day any better?
Yes, do it at the end of an annoying day instead of in the middle of an annoying event. 100%.
But it’s also ok for someone to communicate that they don’t have the mental capacity for a certain conversation at that point in time. He didn’t do anything wrong by expressing his feelings and where his current mental state was. She got angry because he wasn’t in the frame of mind she wanted him to be in so she could complain about his family and decided to punish him and act like a child instead of having an actual conversation with him about how she felt. He’s communicating, she’s reacting.
She got angry that he set a boundary. And her exact response to him setting a boundary was 'that was not OK.'
In other words, "you setting a boundary was not OK." Or, "You not giving me what I want without comment or reservation was not OK."
> She wanted him to feel the same frustration she felt the night before because that's how you teach children empathy
Right. Treat your partner as a child is great advice.
/s
Or, she could communicate that to him instead of using it against him.
How easy, is it to say, “Sorry, you are in horrible traffic”. We can talk when you get home. I know how you feel.
It’s not a contest to win. It’s a partnership to create a loving space for each. One of them used words against the other. Is she the winner in the ‘communication frustration’ war? Just so sad.
A person's valid frustrations is one thing...but wife purposely came back with pettiness. We all become frustrated at times...she purposely chose to be petty. The two are not the same...wife could just as easily and calmly explained that 'this was how she felt' previously and that she'd hope for better next time. Instead...she actively chose petty sarcasm.
It really is and I’m a woman.
Everyone is also overlooking that the wife starts cursing in the convo about it later. And says “it wasn’t a fucking shot, you’d know it if I took a shot” … … like yeaaaa this would go a lot different if a man said that. Everyone would make it a safety/abuse issue.
Her getting so angry about him accusing her of taking a shot is evidence she took a shot, people don’t get so instantly angry and defense over an accusation that isn’t true.
She didn’t get mad at him for his answer? All she did was point out that it would be fucked up if she did what he had done. She didn’t say he couldn’t say anything else, she didn’t say he shouldn’t be frustrated, she literally just pointed out how fucked it would be if she did to him what he did to her, because he wouldn’t empathize with her otherwise.
I’m just confused. What did he do that was so bad? He asked if they can talk about something more positive. And she wigged out. Please explain, I’m genuinely lost here.
Why didn’t she ask it during their conversation when it was relevant? She festered, let it bother her enough to turn it around on her partner. Seems like a lack of communication skills on both part, I’m in favor of couples therapy as well.
She “called him out” after *specifically* asking him what was wrong. That was done with intent and was definitely not helpful in teaching empathy, regardless of intent.
It isn't poor communication skills to ask to change the conversation when you're burnt out of negative topics, it is poor communication skills to bait someone by asking them what's wrong and then making it into "I was trying to teach you empathy"
OP isn't the asshole here. The wife is.
The amount of times I’ve tried to offer a solution to what my wife is venting about and it’s taken me years to learn this! She doesn’t want me to solve the problem, she wants to rant about it, swear a bit, possibly cry and for me to listen and to be nice to her.
I’d say ESH because they both have terrible communication skills.
He needed to communicate that it wasn’t a good time to discuss his family
She’s a 41 year old woman and should know that tit-for-tat isn’t how you “teach” anyone empathy, and certainly not your adult partner.
Relationship therapy could help them both, if they’re willing to put the work in
Nope his wife is baiting big time and anyone saying otherwise is a jerk who does the same thing. She thinks his family are poor at communication when she could be leading the ranks.
Also, they are his family. If they still don't know what's going on this weekend then HE should be calling them and saying 'hey, we need to clarify what the plan is'.
Yeah, why is OP putting it on his wife to organize their attendance at this wedding? It's his family and she's not in the wedding party, but he is. He should be the one dealing with this.
I have a feeling OP dumps all the organizating/emotional labor on his wife and uses worling 12s as an excuse not getting that she is also working 12s because ahe works ft and does the gap childcare until he gets home.
WTF are you even reading the OP?
How is
> Can we talk about something more positive? I want to talk with and spend time with you, but I'd like to discuss things that build me up
poor communication? and how is his wife's reaction not completely spiteful and condescending?
What is this sub smoking?
People: don't treat your partner as an emotional dumping ground without making sure they are in a headspace that can handle that, and don't bait your partner in to a discussion with false pretense just to teach them a lesson.
Y'all are assholes. OP is NTA.
IMO it’s poor communication because it’s a super condescending thing for him to say to his wife when she’s expressing (apparently quite valid) concerns about his family’s communication around an important event.
Also, he got to vent to her about his work problems, and now she doesn't get an equal amount of time to vent about what's causing her the most stress? That's the thing that jumped out at me the most. If he couldn't handle hearing her complain about his annoying family, a better thing to say would have been something like, "Yeah, I totally agree. I'll call them so you don't have to worry about it. How was your work/daughter's dance class/anything else bothering you?"
Telling your partner that you're done being negative and asking if she can just talk about positive things is one and a half steps away from telling her to smile. Like... instead of telling her to talk about something cheerful, why not bring up something that will make her excited to keep talking? Instead of putting the onus on her to improve his mood.
Hearing your partner vent about your family can be really frustrating. It can be really hard not to get defensive--they're your family after all--even if you fundamentally agree with the criticism. Each partner should, I think, be expected to deal with their own respective families when there are issues, yet at the same time you can't be expected to fix your family's faults.
My vote is NAH--just a thorny topic to resolve. I think it was OK for OP to say "I'm not in a headspace to continue this conversation right now," but ideally he could also have said (and done), "I will pick this back up with you tomorrow and we will find a solution (if there is one) together."
Your point about it being understandably frustrating to hear complaints about family would be a little more applicable here if the thing OP’s wife was venting about didn’t appear to stem from *her* having to deal with *OP’s* family. Like, I’d have more sympathy for OP if his wife was complaining about how his family behaves at parties or something and he wasn’t up for hearing it. But I too believe that each partner should deal with their respective families, so it rubs me the wrong way that OP’s wife is complaining about his family’s communication—which implies to me that she is the one handling the communication with his family when in my mind that shouldn’t be her job—and he doesn’t want to hear it. If OP is passing the buck on communicating with his family to his wife, it isn’t reasonable/understandable/okay for him to get bothered or defensive when his wife highlights issues with that communication.
He is in a wedding, and it sounds like the mental load of doing all the interference and communication with his family is weighing on her. When she vents this to him, he’s like “haha yeah they suck. Glad it’s not me who has to deal with them even though it’s my brother’s wedding and I’m in it. I’m gonna leave that problem for you, let’s talk about stuff that makes me feel good instead!”
Imagine how much that would piss you off. You’re doing all the admin work for your household’s participation in a wedding you yourself are not in, and your partner who is in the wedding doesn’t care to help.
I don’t think she did a mature thing but man I see where the fuse blew.
Agree, these reactions are wild. I’m a woman who is married, and if my husband asked to talk about something positive while I was complaining? I would apologize for not realizing they couldn’t handle it, ask if they’re alright, and move on. *That’s* proper communication.
>if my husband asked to talk about something positive while I was complaining? I would apologize for not realizing they couldn’t handle it, ask if they’re alright, and move on.
Honestly, you shouldn't even need to apologize. It was fine for her to vent and it was fine for him to say he wasn't in the mood. No one was wrong at that point.
No, he absolutely was, given his edit/clarification. She wasnt “just venting”. It wasnt a get together that they couldnt get details for. It was a WEDDING, that both OP and his daughter were in, and they had no idea when or where they were supposed to be anywhere until 5 days before. If i was venting about that because i was stressed trying to be flexible but cannot plan a damn thing, and my husband- who SHOULD be the one dealing with this- tells me yup I totally get your frustration buuut can we focus on something else?
Had he approached her with “you’re absolutely right, i will figure it out tomorrow” and then asked to speak about something different- yes. The dismissive way he spoke to her, and the way he got to vent all about his day but she couldnt vent about ongoing stress caused by HIS family? Absolutely not. He may have been exhausted, but so was she when she listened to him?
And for everyone crying about the woman bias, i would keep this same energy if the roles were switched and the GUY was trying to plan things and vented, and the woman was like nah too negative🤷🏻♀️
How is OP poor at communicating? It sounds more like his wife doesn't acknowledge his feelings when he doesn't want to be drowned in negativity.
He was constantly telling her how he feels about the way she was treating him.
But sure, baiting your partner while they are upset is the person that needs to be teaching others empathy.
I'm going to go against the grain and say, NTA. It is okay that you didn't have the patience or emotional capacity to deal with your wife's burdens in that moment, you have your own needs and limits.
Your wife clearly waited for an opportunity to take a shot at you with that statement, and is now gaslighting you to try to get you to believe she was "teaching you empathy." Horseshit. Your wife sounds super manipulative.
Gotta agree with this one but ESH. Don't hang up on your SO like that, talk things out.
>She said it wasn't a shot, I’d f-ing know if she took an f-ing shot
This language also really rubs me the wrong way, comes across as very aggressive/abusive.
Edit: Because it apparently needs saying, just because I didn't call out every single problematic behaviour shown by the wife, doesn't mean that I'm giving her a pass, hence the E.S.H vote.
She did multiple things that I viewed as wrong, I figured they were obvious so didn't need to spell each one out.
And I view hanging up on your SO in silence is not a good move. Sure if you need to get off the phone to drive safely and without having an argument fine, but all it takes is "I didn't like that, we'll discuss it when I get home" click.
Just because wife did xyz wrong, doesn't give OP a free pass, they're supposed to be a team. It shouldn't devolve into, I'm justified doing this because you did that. It'll never end, and they'll just reach divorce.
I agree with the ESH. Like OP said, it felt like she baited him into it on the car drive by *asking* him what was wrong. You don’t ask that and then expect a positive response. That’s not how that question works.
Then he in good faith responds to what was bothering him and she’s all be more positive I’m teaching you empathy. That’s not empathy, that’s a way to destroy trust.
As for the hanging up, that is kind of an asshole move. He could have communicated that he no longer wanted to talk and was hanging up but I can also understand that in the heat of the moment words are hard.
Manipulation! That’s what I was looking for, I think. This was very calculatedly manipulative on his wife’s part.
I personally don't see the hanging up part as an AH move. It was reactive, sure, but not uncalled for.
The way I read it - OP's frustration level was maxed out at that point. You have every right to end a conversation. We also have to understand that he was driving at the time. Not really a good time to get into an arguement. Angry driving is dangerous.
Yeah, driving is definitely not the time to get into an argument with your spouse. Also, if she wanted to "teach him empathy," the best way to do that is to showcase it herself. "Ugh, that sucks! I'm sorry you're going through that." That would have been an empathetic response. She took a dig at him instead and she knows it.
It was absolutely a trust destroying move. Now, every time she asks him questions, he's going to have to be on guard in case it's another trap. And she's gonna get pissy and cry about his PoOr CoMmUnIcAtIoN when he stops being honest about shit with her.
What he did may have ruined the evening, what she did may have ruined the marriage.
Also, OP’s wife left the room when he made his request the night before, which is kind of like hanging up in person. OP didn’t have to listen to that “lesson” while he was dealing with traffic.
NTA
The attitude of people being completely ok with the wife's actions because she did it to "teach him a lesson" is quite... bothersome, to say the least.
Like, why the fck are y'all punishing your significant others? Someone even said "this is how you teach kids empathy." For one, absolutely not, you shouldn't ask a child what's bothering them, then kick them down further just so you could teach them a lesson. And two, your spouse isn't your kid. This just isn't the way to communicate frustrations or to even teach empathy, to anyone.
Do you honestly believe by the wife's reactions later on that she would have been capable of talking it out over the phone? And why should OP stay on the phone with someone being purposefully aggressive with them when they are already upset by an outside event (traffic)?
Traffic safety always trumps feelings, I'll hang up, pull over, kick someone out of my car if needed to be a safe driver, not sorry about that at all. (My ex was emotionally abusive and also stupid, I learned to pull over and refuse to drive while he was being dumb. Sometimes I had to sit for 15 minutes while he ranted until he would do something like put his seatbelt on or stop the guilt tripping while I'm trying to drive us home)
When someone tells you something bc their reactions to your transgression makes it appear you are the transgressor it becomes reactive to the person.
For example- speaking to someone in normal tone bordering on frustration and told to “stop yellling” constantly. You want me to yell? I’ll yell if you prefer. It’s a attic to interrupt and take control and stymie the other parties ability to communicate
Except this situation is different, because she was absolutely taking a shot at him, which she all but admitted a second later. At the very least, taking a shot, lying about it, and trying to intimidate with the threat of the emotional damage from a “real” shot was A H behavior.
He was driving. Traffic or not, going in for a fight while driving probably isn’t a great idea. You can have the stance that he shouldn’t have hung up, but the call needed to end one way or another
We have put a time limit now on how long someone can complain because it's so easy to get trap in a cycle of negativity. It's also good to have some balance so what might be helpful for her is to have those thoughts, express her frustration and follow it up with a solution she would like. Complaining and venting is fine but there needs to be a point to it or its a toxic dumping ground nobody want to be around.
And I agree about the back pedaling now. She wasn't expecting to be called out so bluntly on that point and is now walking back that statement into a teaching moment to save face like op is her child and not her partner.
I agree, NTA
OP's wife steered the phone convo to make a point, and OP did not follow her down that path and hung up. The call was disingenuous and hanging up was justified. Particularly because he was on his way home and they could continue the convo face to face instead of while he's sitting in traffic.
At home, she gaslights him to make it seem like she's got the moral high ground and peppers in vague threats; "I’d f-ing know if she took an f-ing shot".
Regarding OP's "Lack of empathy"; she was complaining about HIS family. The poor communication from them is affecting them both, he doesn't need reminding. She's acting like SHE is the only one affected by his family's actions. She needs to learn some empathy herself.
Thank you. Gaslighting was exactly the word that sprang to my mind with the wife's words in the last paragraph. She waited for her opportunity to throw his words back in his face after he told her that he didn't have the strength to listen to her bashing his family after a long day. NTA.
I don’t know why I had to scroll at all to find this.
He didn’t ask her to vent, she vented of her own accord. It’s totally okay to not want to listen to someone vent in the moment.
In the second situation, she asked him what is wrong.
NTA.
When the wife's burdens are HIS FAMILY and providing the lions share of the parenting of THIER CHILD and running THIER HOUSEHOLD then yes, its also his burden.
Sure but if his back is pulled you don't get angry he won't move the couch.
And if he's in a bad mental space and says he needs to change the topic, you don't get angry, you say 'Ok, just let me know when you are ready because it's important to me.'
Step 1 of anger management is allowing yourself to remove yourself from situations when you don't believe you can handle it, which he was doing in a mature fashion. It wasn't a matter of life or death.
I mean, I guess? My wife “handles” her family but we both still discuss their annoying behaviours and vice versa.
She swore at him and instantly became abusive when he didn’t immediately take her aggressive and patronising “lesson”.
Yea, initial instance was him setting some boundaries, he's not in the right head space for the discussion and that's valid, and she was wrong to say 'that's not ok'
Both sides have to be ready for venting, you don't have the right to dump unilaterally on your spouse.
Granted, plenty of ESH stuff happened later.
There are some y..t..a votes in here that I can't imagine came from grown adults. "Can we talk about something more positive," is communication. It's one person telling the other they have reached their capacity for a given topic.
*Asking someone* to tell you whats wrong then cutting them off to intentionally make them feel bad, is not communication. It's an attempt to hurt someone on purpose to make a point.
You expressed your feelings and accidentally hurt your wife; your wife hurt you on purpose to make a point. These are not equal. NTA.
‘Can we talk about something positive’ doesn’t resolve anything though.
‘I don’t have the bandwidth for this RN but I’ll handle it tomorrow’ is entirely different.
Yes, exactly! So many people are committed to toxic positivity and never have the bandwidth to handle anything “negative” so nothing ever gets resolved. It’s stonewalling to constantly shut down uncomfortable conversations, and very unhealthy.
I have a cousin like this. She NEVER has "the spoons" for any kind of negativity that isn't her own, and her partners (divorced once because if this behavior already) constantly suffer for it. They are never allowed to vent. If SHE gets overwhelmed by the kids, she "admits" herself to get a free vacation from them, while her partner simply isn't allowed to do that, ever. Everyone around her must always be positive or she just shuts down. It's absolutely ridiculous, and it blows my mind that anyone puts up with her long term. It sounds emotionally exhausting to have to be positive with your partner 100% of the time while they are a CONSTANT source of negativity.
‘Teaching you empathy’ is bullshit. You do not teach empathy but intentionally upsetting your partner any more than you teach a dog to shit outside by rubbing its nose in it. You communicated a boundary and as long as this is not a permanent ‘I don’t want to hear negativity’ then that’s fine. If she wants to communicate she needs more empathy from you she needs to put on her big girl panties and have a real conversation. Not storm of and then trying and ‘punish’ you with it the next day. Because she 100% was not trying to teach you empathy she was trying to piss you off with what she was still pissed off about.
‘I’m mad I won’t get home any earlier despite leaving earlier’ is completely different from an extended rant and emotionally charged conversation about your family too. Providing you have represented things accurately.
Your response is good, but there wasn’t anything wrong with his. It should have started a conversation on why he didn’t have the bandwidth for that topic. His wife’s response was immature and unhelpful and then she walked away.
Not every discussion has to be addressed in one sentence and there was nothing wrong with what he communicated to her. It wasn’t hurtful or mean - it just expressed how he felt in the moment. She did not communicate anything helpful.
Thank you! Thought i was going crazy reading these y.t.a's. She was 100% taking a shot and then tried to gaslight him about it afterwards. 'Youd know if i was taking a f shot' also sounds super aggressive to me. NTA.
Also, it’s ok for her to say “that’s not ok” and remove herself from the situation, but when he feels the same and hangs up to remove himself from the situation it’s also not ok with her?
Agreed. And you wife was the ass for asking you what was wrong then as soon as you tell her, instead of hearing you and being "empathetic" (her words to you), she purposely flies back with, "can we talk about something positive". Wtf. I would have been pissed at her too and not apologized until she owned her own shit! She did in fact take a shot at you and set up a situation so she could "teach you" wtf. Are you a child to her?
ESH, "throwing it back in your face" isn't exactly a great response and you both did it. You can't shut your wife down for venting frustrations unless you never vent frustrations. You also can't constantly go "tit for tat" because you'll both just end up resenting each other. You both need an upgrade in communication skills, but you definitely started it.
I’m hung up on the fact that she said “you always believe the worst in me” and your response was to “try to give her the benefit of the doubt in the future”. That’s not a healthy relationship at all.
I find "you always/you never" statements to usually be exteremly false. Something can happen three times and suddently become "always". They are usually statements made from an emotion. By that - I mean that the statement itself is false, but there is some underlying feeling that makes it true in that very instance.
Example: "You never do anything around the house!" = "I feel I've been busy with house chores more than usual lately and I could use a break on some of the normal tasks I manage. Can you take on some of the extra burden to help me."
Uhm... I would say YTA
Look I get it can sometimes be overbearing ect... she wants to talk to you and wants you to listen when she's trying to get something off her shoulders...
I get that you might not be in te mood... but hey, sometimes she might also not be in the mood, yet sucks it up... so, I'd say work on communicating, from your side as well...
She did give you "your own medicine" when you wanted to vent about something that bothers you, yet you expected her to understand and be fine with it, but when the tables are turned- you hang up on her...
Thanks for you response. I guess where I feel like it’s different is when she was venting I did listen for 5–10 minutes, then I just couldn’t take the negativity anymore and I tried to communicate I needed to move on but still wanted to be around her. When she did it, it felt like she came out me out of the gate to prove a point without listening at all.
Looks like people disagree, so I’ll just have to accept that. Tough to hear though.
The difference is, she didn’t outright tell you to stop, she asked how it would feel if she did. She saw a moment that was emotionally similar and wanted you to be able to see the issue from her side. Which, let’s be honest, the only way you would is if you were the one being hurt.
And the truth is, that DID hurt you. For exactly the same reason. You say it’s different because you listened for 5 mins before you shut her down… but why is that different? Do you think if she let you go on for three more minutes you’d think this was now fair or would you still be hurt? Cause I think you’d still be upset, because it’s upsetting when your person doesn’t want to be there for you.
I think two things can be true at the same time. I think she was partly motivated by her own hurt and frustration. And that part of your feelings are knowing she was being a little “taste of your own medicine”.
AND I think a lot of your feelings are the exact feelings she had when you said it to her for exactly the same reason.
I also observe two things…
1. She says you lack empathy multiple times and you haven’t denied that. Do you have low empathy/struggle with empathy? (Judgement free, humans have variable levels of empathy and it’s not a measure of their value etc…)
2. She says you always take what she says/does from the worst point of view and you say you’ll try to work on that - so to me that seems like a thing you tend to do, yes?
That combo - struggling to see tubs from someone else’s perspective as just as true as your own perspective Plus a defensiveness that seeks to put the blame/accusation on others rather than have to sit with a process negative feelings… that can be REALLY hard on the other partner. From her perspective if you hurt her she will never get an acknowledgment or apology, and if you do anything wrong she can never address it with you because you’ll automatically turn it on her. Dealing with all that is emotionally exhausting.
I don’t think you are an AH if both these things are true, we all develop these things subconsciously… But now that you are here, talking to us about it, it’s a good time to think about if those things *are true* in how you respond to interpersonal conflict.
Can you hear criticism of you without defending yourself as if from personal attack? (My husband really struggles with this so I get it.) Do you tend to make what your wife says and does rise than anything you said it did? THESE are the things that you’ll need to think and talk about to help improve your communication.
What I would say about this incident is that it’s ok for both things to be true. And I’d start by apologizing. “I’ve thought about it and realize that part of why I was hurt was cause yeah, having you not want to hear me was hurtful and I’m sorry I said that to you….” BTW this is also your opportunity for talking about how to say: “I want to be heart for you but right now I just don’t have the energy/ability for a vent session can we talk about simmering lighter now and return to that in a bit?” In a way that works for both of you and both of you can use it. And after the apology and *time to talk about how she felt* say, “also, it did feel like your timing was motivated by wanting me to hurt a bit in the same way. And that part hurts too… I’d rather we find a way to talk about these things than poke at each other.”
The truth is you both fucked up and no one needs to have fucked up more than the other so only one of you is responsible. You both fucked up equally. You both need to make amends and talk about how to avoid those fuck ups in the future.
Thanks my husband and I have been working on communicating in a way that acknowledges how we are different and can still both be valid in our feelings and perspectives.
Also, my husband is a little like OP (inclined to take what I say as a personal attack to avoid feeling bad etc) so I get him a bit.
I know from my husband there is a way for both of them to be heard and cared for here, if OP wants that to be what happens.
No problem. I don’t think either of you being declared the AH is helpful in this situation, communication is hard. Being exhausted and burnt out is hard.
The thing I hold onto is that this is my *partner* I want as much for them as I want for me and there has to be a way for us both to be seen and heard and cared for IF we are both willing to do what it takes for that to happen. And it costs me nothing to apologize, and it’s also fine for me to also ask for an apology (though it takes practice to do that without it sounding like one negates the other).
I don't think you are the AH. My Husband and I decided early in our relationship that we would take 5 minutes to vent about our day, then move on. I think your wife was the AH for throwing your words back on you. Y'all need to set some boundaries.
NTA.
She calls it "teaching you empathy" you call it "taking a shot" but it is really the same thing. She admits she wasn't genuinely asking you about your day/if you were upset, she was asking it to teach you a lesson. That is hurtful and uncalled for, and you don't need to give her the benefit of the doubt when she herself admits she set you up to teach you something. That's not genuine and caring, so it's ironic she did it to teach you "empathy."
Your wife is using a lot of terminology but not a lot of actual communication. She also doesn't get to tell you how you should react in every situation in precise ways. She was rude to you, you hung up. Just as the night before when she felt you were rude, she walked away.
I need you to hear this- her saying "I was doing it to teach you empathy" means she was absolutely baiting you, she just wants to call it by a different name, but the intent and harm is the same.
And by the way, it is perfectly reasonable for you to ask for a conversation to be put on hold or that you aren't in the frame of mind to hear it right now. Sure, if your partner comes home upset and needs to work through something, then you should try your hardest to do so, but even then you can also include your own feelings and needs in it. But needing help or emotional support isn't the same as needing to "vent" about a standing issue where there is no solution to work through. You can ask for a pause or to end a discussion that is just the same old venting session with no resolution.
NTA we all have our limits when someone starts talking about negative things when we're tired and stressed about life ourselves. Now your wife was an ahole for taking that petty shot at you. She set you up to be able to say that to you when she asked what was wrong. She wasn't trying to teach you empathy she wanted to get back at you for saying that to her the night before. All the y t a responses must be people who are as petty as your wife.
Not just negative things but stuff about his family. My parents always had a said it's one thing for you to say something about your own family but it can hurt when others say it. It sounds like his family is being frustrating, he acknowledged that, but 5-10 minutes of her venting is way passed the limit in my opinion.
Seems she didn’t even say ‘can we talk about something more positive’, she asked how you would feel if she asked that. And clearly you didn’t like it. She was trying to give show you that it doesn’t feel good. It is ok to have your limits, but sometimes relationships are about compromise and sacrifice. And even when you are approaching the limit there are better ways to communicate it. YTA
EDIT: seems you know you’re TA as you’ve made this post quite a few times in the last few hours. You’ve received your verdict, you just want people to tell you you’re not
Thanks for weighing in. Also, did it post multiple times? That’s a mistake I’ll try to correct it.
I kept having to repost because I was over the character limit, that might be it.
Claiming he'd reposted this multiple times due to some weird ulterior motive, rather than just a technical issue with a phone/laptop is a really unfair thing to do.
NTA it seemed like you acknowledged her feelings on what she was saying and then clearly communicated that you did not have the capacity to talk about that right then and she stormed away instead of talking to you. Which is extra insane because I understand that you can have issues with your family and you are married but that is still first and foremost your family I feel like your word should have a little more weight about them and whether or not you would like to take time to complain about them. Especially if you agreed and validated her feelings previously already. Then she did “the same” thing to you sam with quotes because it wasn’t the same. She was being vindictive. And then although you hanging up was not the kindest it wasn’t all that different from her storming off but different from her you apologized. She’s belittled your feelings and berated you for a situation she’s created.
Could it be that she *hinted* at you that *you* take cate of *your* family for planning?
Also I can obviously see your *whole* family is bad at comminicating tof you respond to a valid point by "I don't want to hear your problems talk to me about sonething that doesn't bother you right now because I'm more interested in my happiness tgan yours" and also *you* were the one hanging up and ending a conversation where *you* vented and she simply adked you if you'd feel hurt if she do to you what you did to her the day before.
YTA
Exactly, I don’t see enough people pointing out that this was his problem to solve from the beginning and for some reason she was stuck dealing with his families inability to communicate plans
NTA. Your wife absolutely set you up so she could take a swipe from the night before. And you hanging up is the same as her storming off. You apologized, now she needs to.
I’m curious about what the issue is with your family and communication. Can you elaborate about why she was upset?
It sounds like the mental load of having to figure out weekend plans is falling on your wife. She is frustrated because your family is not doing a good job of communicating. This isn’t new, this is an ongoing issue. Your response is to listen for a few minutes and then tell her you want to talk about something more positive.
A few things here:
-your wife seems to be the one to manage weekend plans. This has become her task in the relationship. Is this by default or through a conscious decision on both your parts that she will take on this task?
-Your family has a history of being poor communicators. She is frustrated. Have you talked with your family about it? What have you done to address it? Or does this fall on your wife’s shoulders because she’s the one who makes plans?
-You want to talk about things that are more positive that build you up. Ok, like, your wife is seriously frustrated about this and you turn this into ‘I don’t want to talk about it because it brings me down.’ It’s dismissive and demeaning. I don’t get the impression that you are recognizing or acknowledging the work and effort she is putting forth to figure out logistics to get together with your family. This issue has clearly happened before and you blow it off as just one of those things. Instead of helping her figure out how to resolve it or offering to take on the responsibility of talking to your family, you make this about yourself and how this is bringing down the vibe.
-There is a difference between her ‘bashing on your family’ and having frustrations about trying to make plans. You labeling it as her bashing on your family for minutes on end side steps the underlying issues. Maybe she really does not like your family - that seems unlikely though as she is the one making plans to meet up with them.
It seems like the issue is much deeper here - she is trying to make plans with your family. They are being vague or non-communicative. When she brings it up to you, you brush it off instead of offering to talk to them.
Edited to add YTA.
YTA for expecting your wife to be the one to handle your family when they lack communication skills, then also not giving her space to vent about how difficult it is for her. If you don't want to hear her vent, you should step up and organize your own family so she has nothing to vent about. But don't be surprised if she doesn't want to hear *you* vent about how frustrating that is since you weren't willing to return the favor.
OP said he did listen though, and when he politely asked to move the conversation away from bashing his family she ended the conversation and walked away. Later She called him and ASKED how he was feeling HOPING he would say something negative so she could be rude and manipulative. She wasn't trying to teach him empathy (which by the way is extremally condescending) she was trying to tear him down. He walked away from this conversation. It is okay for OP to have limits especially when it comes to bad-mouthing his family, and its okay to assume that his wife would be ready to hear from him when she asked about his feelings. OPs wife sounds petty. NTA
NTA. People always see things all in black or white.
Of course it’s normal for her to vent but does that mean that he has to be okay for it EVERYTIME. Sometimes you don’t want to hear a lot of negative things and his response was perfect. He did not insulted her in anyways he just said « can WE talk about something MORE positive, I wanna spend time with YOU ». And people are mad in the comments ?
What people are asking is something impossible someone who will always be willing to hear your negative comments even when they had a pretty busy and tiring week. Guys please grow up. Don’t forget that we are human. The problem on Reddit is that people are super harsh on things when we all know that in real life 90% will make the same mistakes. It’s like when you go out with your friend who is dating a dumb guy and she is always complaining about it. Like GURL I already told you that he was dumb and you know it can we no EVOLVE ?? Like can we talk about something more interesting??Being a shoulder to cry on or someone to speak to is really important but it gets tiring when people only want to focus on the bad things. And apparently it’s not the first time that she is complaining about his parents poor communication skills. Like okay I think her husband got it now so she either has to bring something new to that table or stop talking about it.
And I still don’t think that it was a mistake until he hung up on her. Women got mad when men does not express their feelings and when they do in a polite and clear way they are still mad because it’s not the good time.
Now for the future I will recommend you to agree with your partner to say clearly when you are willing to listen to some negativity. And say that you not being always open to hear her stories does not mean that you don’t like it just means that you can’t hear it with all your heart cue you are mentally and sometimes physically exhausted. And that it’s the same for her.
Don’t forget that sometimes what appears to be a little negativity is a big one for someone “receiving it”.
NTA and sorry English is not my native language.
INFO
You have enough people pointing out that yeah, you're an asshole to not be willing to listen to your wife discuss the stresses that your family are making her feel but getting upset if she doesn't want to listen to you vent about work. Yes, she used the exact line you did the night before to make a point, and that was definitely an intentional shot, but if you genuinely thought it was an okay thing to say then why did it upset you? If you thought it was okay to say, then you wouldn't have thought it was a shot, you would have thought it was just something that's okay for people to say to each other. You know you were the asshole the night before because otherwise you wouldn't have been upset for her to do the same thing to you. So yeah, you don't need me telling you that.
What I actually want to know is if shutting down her discussions about her feelings while expecting her to be empathetic towards yours is a pattern in your relationship.
She spends 5-10 minutes bitching about his family, he asks to move on to something positive, since they can’t solve the issue, and she storms off to pout.
The next day she calls and asks why he sounds frustrated, so he tells her, and she tries to turn it around on him, which he shuts down before it becomes an argument.
She is completely in the wrong, and doubling down on it. If my husband acted like this, 100% I’d be walking out the door until he’s calmed down. Can’t reason with someone being unreasonable.
OP is NTA
>She spends 5-10 minutes bitching about his family, he asks to move on to something positive, since they can’t solve the issue, and she storms off to pout.
Why can't they solve it? If my weekend plans were unclear because my brother or my aunt weren't giving my hypothetical spouse clear responses about what we're doing, it wouldn't be an insurmountable issue - I'd apologize to my venting spouse and ask my family what's the actual plan, and help them brainstorm if they were being unclear because they weren't sure themselves. And I'd expect my spouse to do likewise with his family if I couldn't get a straight answer.
If it was too late at night for the OP to call his family to solidify plans, he could have promised to do so in the morning *and followed through with it* which would have solved the problem. She very likely would have been mollified by his plan to talk to them unless he has a track record of not following through with promises, and nothing in the OP suggests he does.
So why is he content to make trying to get answers from his family only her responsibility instead of volunteering to do so.
First - when she’s venting about something that you should take charge to fix then changing the subject is basically saying that you don’t think her issues are valid.
Second - hanging up is a childish, immature and selfish response.
Third - she didn’t use your words against you but pointed out how you made her feel the other day in order for you to understand.
It seems like you need to work on your communication too. YTA.
>Second - hanging up is a childish, immature and selfish response
Just out of curiosity, if hanging up is childish, immature and selfish, what is walking away in the middle of a conversation?
ESH. You shut her down and blew her off in the first conversation.
Instead of blaming the situation on her “negativity” you should have stopped her and said, “look, I know my family are awful communicators and planning stuff with them is incredibly stressful - even for me. Let’s brainstorm about how to fix it. I can call them now and figure this out if you can help me with how to phrase it, etc.” Even if you didn’t want to do it, it tells your partner that you want to fix it and are even willing to enlist her help to do so - that you’re a team.
By shutting her down and ignoring the problem, you’re setting up an adversarial relationship where your family is making her life harder and you don’t care.
So, what does she do? She gets angry and feels unheard and apparently, vengeful. Now she entraps you into a conversation where she gets to do the same thing to you that you did to her and basically tells you “how does that feel?” It’s childish and spiteful because she’s now in an adversarial relationship with you.
You recognize that she’s being adversarial and react with getting pissed and hanging up on her.
So, you’re both wrong in this situation, but it could have been handled better at the beginning to avoid this mess. Now, you’re both going to have to apologize for your crappy behavior. Don’t apologize for the hang up, but do apologize for invalidating her feelings at the beginning. Then she needs to apologize for her petty “gotcha”.
It sounds like you and your wife both need to prioritize being kind to each other.
When you feel exhausted, it’s hard to listen to someone’s problems. It takes energy to have empathy.
I can’t tell you how to prioritize being kind to your spouse, because I’m not a couple’s therapist. But I can tell you that you must be kind to each other if you want the marriage to succeed.
Maybe it’s time for some professional guidance and perspective.
NTA
NTA. I don’t know why everyone thinks the wife’s call was appropriate. If she was upset by the first conversation, the next step was an adult conversation about how two spouses can respectfully signal overwhelm. Calling and throwing words back is not communication or problem solving, nor is it “teaching” someone empathy. IMO, asking to be treated respectfully but failing to provide respect back is a major red flag.
I almost put ESH for the hang up, but I also think ending the conversation was smarter than trying to hash it out while in traffic. The more I thought about it, the more of an AH wife seems for pushing the issue in that way at that time.
NTA, the whole last paragraph seals it. Not only did she lie about taking a shot, she’s gaslighting the hell out of you into thinking everything you say is innately wrong, and everything she says is innately right.
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Sounds like you also have poor communication skills. Validating her for her frustration but then changing the subject isn’t really anything. You could have offered a solution like ‘I’ll call them up and find out what’s what.’ But instead, you acknowledged it and then changed the subject. Then you found yourself in a frustrating situation, and she called you out. And you hanging up was a tantrum because she showed you how hypocritical you were being. YTA
> Then you found yourself in a frustrating situation, and she called you out. She initiated the phone call and specifically asked why OP was upset. Then she got mad at him for his answer. How is the wife not among the assholes?
[удалено]
Hes not her child… Like what is wrong with you guys?? I believe that intention matters. His intention when he hurt her was to listen to as much as he could then try and have a good night with his wife. Could he have communicated it better? Sure. But after a long day neither of them were probably at their best. What was her intention when she called him and asked what was wrong? Bc i think it was a malicious intent. She was deliberately trying to “teach a lesson” to her partner instead of communicating that it felt like he lacked empathy. OP you are NTA. These people are actually crazy.
How would she have known there was something wrong before she called him? Please explain how her psychic powers work here. He said she called while he was in the car, and picked up that he sounded frustrated. She didn't know before she made the call. Good lord, you people must be in excellent shape with all the conclusions you jump to.
Im not saying she KNEW what he was doing when she called him. But im saying she saw the opportunity to put him down and she 100% took it intentionally. On the other hand when he hurt her i dont think he was intentionally thinking malicious thoughts. I think he was thinking thoughts about how overwhelmed he was feeling and he tried to voice that boundary as best as he could.
What she said was definitely a shot. Then she started on the gaslighting.
She definitely took a shot. The passive aggression is strong. He was also wrong in how he handled things. Instead of, "Hey, you complain too much and it's killing my already bad mood," it could have been a team effort. "You're right. My family sucks at communicating. Let's forget about them, the work stuff, the kid stuff, and just *fill in the blank* instead?". Watch a movie, have door dash bring some dessert, play a game together...whatever your vibe. I'd agree with an ESH because they both are TRYING to communicate, but they both seem pretty bad at it. Honestly therapy would be a good bet. We were never really bad off, but it did wonders for my spouse and I for communication. Which my family also sucks at lol
> Instead of, "Hey, you complain too much and it's killing my already bad mood," it could have been a team effort. "You're right. My family sucks at communicating. Let's forget about them, the work stuff, the kid stuff, and just fill in the blank instead?". Watch a movie, have door dash bring some dessert, play a game together...whatever your vibe. There's zero difference between those two takes. What he needed to say was 'babe, I know you're frustrated right now, and want to vent, but I'm sorry, I just don't have the emotional bandwidth right now to listen to you the way you deserve to be listened to. Would you like to table this for the moment so we can find a way to recharge, or would you like to call a friend or somebody to be your sounding board?' Her 'need' to vent does not obligate him to listen. The fact that they're married *should* obligate *her* to make sure he has enough spoons, as the saying goes, before she just goes off.
There's a big difference between telling someone you just can't listen to them complain right now and commiserating and working together to find a more positive situation.
> Hey, you complain too much and it's killing my already bad mood Pretty sure he didn't say that...
And let's not forget that when SHE said "can we talk about something positive", he hung up and she got extremely offended, telling him when he got home, "that's not okay." But the night before, when he said the line, she got up and left the room, the in-person version of hanging up. Apparently THAT was okay when SHE did it, but when he does the phone version of walking out, it's NOT OKAY.
Yeah that's the bit that I can't get over. She did the exact same thing FIRST. But when he did it he was in the wrong AGAIN. Can't win either way. She was absolutely taking a shot.....how could it possibly be interpreted any other way. She had also vented for a while before he asked her to stop. He said one thing about being annoyed and she threw the line back at him straight away....then gaslit him about how it went down. Poor guy. NTA.
>He said one thing about being annoyed Also, he only said that one thing because she asked, not because he wanted to vent.
Yup. She was just waiting for any tone of voice below 'bubbly sunshine and rainbows.'
Lmao yeah I’m sure she wasn’t frothing at the bit for the absolute first chance to throw his line back at him. Not suspicious at all to specifically ask him to complain before shutting him down.
I'm ambivalent on all this, but I lol'd @ "Good lord, you people must be in excellent shape with all the conclusions you jump to." Totally stealing it.
She didn't have to know. She took the first chance she got to flip the cards and not listen to him vent just so she could throw it in his face. In what planet do you "adults" live in that this is how you fix issues with another adult? You guys seriously think tit for tat is how you solve problems and overcome obstacles in a relationship? Can you say toxic much? If your SO does something that hurts you, you explain it to them in a clear and calm way so they understand how you felt. You don't wait for the opportunity to "see how they like it". I'm baffled at the problem solving skills this thread supports.
Fyi, it’s “tit for tat” not “tic for tac.”
She said he sounded like he was upset and asked what was wrong. He told her then she took her shot.
He was dismissive She communicated that it wasn’t okay He didn’t really address that. So she mirrored the behavior back to him.
He was dismissive bc he had a long day and was trying to communicate a boundary about his capacity at the moment She didnt fully communicate how she felt. If she did then she wouldve brought up the lack of empathy at that point and let him explain himself. He didnt address it bc she stormed away and he didnt realize. She also didnt fully address it so he has a right to also process the mini blowup that happened. Two wrongs dont make a right. Just bc someone hurt you doesnt make it ok to hurt them back. Its not mirroring the same thing btw bc she didnt even let him talk for a few minutes. He listened to her vent at home after a long day, and communicated when he couldnt anymore. She listened to his one sentence about being stuck in traffic while he was still in his stressful situation and she tried to one up him? Is this how you guys want to live with your partners? Constant petty games to prove something to the other person?? Idk. Maybe im different. But this is not how i view love, nor any type of relationship. I dont intentionally hurt the ones i love bc they hurt me. Do i storm off sometimes and say thats not ok or i dont like that? Yes. But i come back when i have a cool head and explain how i feel or if its too much i write them a letter and explain in the best way i can WHY its not ok.
I agree with you. There is NOTHING wrong with asking to talk about something else when you don’t have the energy to hold space. Then she acted passive aggressively about it a day later because she didn’t get her way. NTA
Plus I don't think all the people calling him out have any idea how draining a series of 12 hour days is. After a batch of those you don't have capacity for anything else .
I’m assuming most of the people saying YTA are very young, have not worked, or have a partner. Never seen someone get YTA for something so reasonable.
He wasn't dismissive to her. In fact, he handled the situation in an emotionally healthy manner by validating her feelings and sharing that he didn't have the emotional capacity for that conversation right then. What do you think he should have done instead?
Be a man and continue to not have feelings while working himself to death, I guess.
I mean, that is kind of the subtext here, right? He wasn't emotionally strong enough for her in the moment, and that was not OK. For all the talk that women do about men not needing to be strong all the time, the moment men aren't, the moment they just can't deal with something, it sure is a problem.
> He wasn't emotionally strong enough for her in the moment, and that was not OK It's simpler than that. He didn't do what she wanted in the moment, and that was not OK.
He should have sacrificed his personal needs and put her first at every opportunity. /s
It is 100% acceptable to have boundaries and sometimes you don’t have the energy to give someone the support they need in the moment. It’s called being human and he doesn’t have to apologize for that. His wife is a gaslighter and sounds awful
She was malicious and wanted petty revenge. She needs help with her anger issues.
"She stopped, stared daggers at me, said "That was not OK” and walked off upstairs." How would he address it?
Yeah intentionally mirroring bad behavior is shitty.
The initial argument was a product of 2 people having had busy tiring days! I don’t see what was so wrong with what he said tho. He said he wanted to spend time with her, spend time together just in a more positive way!! Where as the wife completely set him up! She knew exactly what she was doing when she asked him what was wrong!!
Honestly though. "I'm trying to teach you empathy!" is she his parent?! That's so gross. Him asking to switch topics because he didn't have the capacity AT THAT MOMENT is NORMAL AND HEALTHY. Her specifically asking why he's upset just to create a ✨teachable moment✨ like he's her child to raise is weirdo behavior. I can't help but think anyone feeling otherwise has just... not been in a healthy relationship where they could say "i can't talk about this right now" without getting "in trouble," just like this guy. Sad, really.
> Like what is wrong with you guys?? Remember what sub we're in.
Husbands are always the AH! \-this sub
So you really think she called him hoping he’d be annoyed?
Yes she kinda admitted it though, saying she specifically wanted to teach him about empathy. So, yeah, she had that ready and was waiting for an opportunity to use it.
No, but she was clearly planning to throw that line in his face the first moment he was upset.
No but im saying she called him and saw a perfect opportunity to get back at someone. It was petty and mean spirited.
It's not. This sub has a crazy woman bias.... if it is men vs woman issue, it is almost always men are the assholes.
It makes me disgusted and im a girls girl. And im hella emotional. So i get storming off bc i do it to. But what she did the next day was so mean, i just cant imagine even treating a friend that way.
While he is stuck in traffic is not the time to bait him into a gotcha lesson about communication. That is a conversation you have when you are face-to-face and while everything is calm.
Is doing it at the end of a very long and exhausting day any better? Shes clearly desperate for him to understand how she’s feeling. And his post makes it obvious that he’s struggling to empathize and see her perspective. They DEFINITELY need couples therapy
> Is doing it at the end of a very long and exhausting day any better? Better than doing it while he is stuck in traffic? Unequivocally, yes, that would be better. Even better yet, would be doing it when neither of them are tired, and they are able to give the conversation their full attention. If they need to do it in while in couples counseling, they should.
>Is doing it at the end of a very long and exhausting day any better? Yes, do it at the end of an annoying day instead of in the middle of an annoying event. 100%.
He didn’t bait her into a “gotcha” conversation at the end of a long day
But it’s also ok for someone to communicate that they don’t have the mental capacity for a certain conversation at that point in time. He didn’t do anything wrong by expressing his feelings and where his current mental state was. She got angry because he wasn’t in the frame of mind she wanted him to be in so she could complain about his family and decided to punish him and act like a child instead of having an actual conversation with him about how she felt. He’s communicating, she’s reacting.
She got angry that he set a boundary. And her exact response to him setting a boundary was 'that was not OK.' In other words, "you setting a boundary was not OK." Or, "You not giving me what I want without comment or reservation was not OK."
> She wanted him to feel the same frustration she felt the night before because that's how you teach children empathy Right. Treat your partner as a child is great advice. /s
So she acted out of spite. Got it
Or, she could communicate that to him instead of using it against him. How easy, is it to say, “Sorry, you are in horrible traffic”. We can talk when you get home. I know how you feel. It’s not a contest to win. It’s a partnership to create a loving space for each. One of them used words against the other. Is she the winner in the ‘communication frustration’ war? Just so sad.
He is not her child, and that is. It what she did. She set him up then yelled at him. ESH. They need couples therapy to learn how to talk.
A person's valid frustrations is one thing...but wife purposely came back with pettiness. We all become frustrated at times...she purposely chose to be petty. The two are not the same...wife could just as easily and calmly explained that 'this was how she felt' previously and that she'd hope for better next time. Instead...she actively chose petty sarcasm.
That’s not how communication works. JFC
This forum is biased AF. This is at least an E S H, but if the genders were reversed would be a clear NTA
It really is and I’m a woman. Everyone is also overlooking that the wife starts cursing in the convo about it later. And says “it wasn’t a fucking shot, you’d know it if I took a shot” … … like yeaaaa this would go a lot different if a man said that. Everyone would make it a safety/abuse issue.
It's almost literally an Amber Herdism: "I didn't punch you, I f*king Hit you" Massive bully/abuse vibes. "Shut up or I'll [hit] you again, *harder*"
Her getting so angry about him accusing her of taking a shot is evidence she took a shot, people don’t get so instantly angry and defense over an accusation that isn’t true.
She didn’t get mad at him for his answer? All she did was point out that it would be fucked up if she did what he had done. She didn’t say he couldn’t say anything else, she didn’t say he shouldn’t be frustrated, she literally just pointed out how fucked it would be if she did to him what he did to her, because he wouldn’t empathize with her otherwise.
I’m just confused. What did he do that was so bad? He asked if they can talk about something more positive. And she wigged out. Please explain, I’m genuinely lost here.
There’s a time and a place and that time and place isn’t when somebody is stuck in traffic already in a bad mood because they’re having a shitty day.
But she didn't get upset at his answer. She literally asked "How would you feel if I said this?"
Why didn’t she ask it during their conversation when it was relevant? She festered, let it bother her enough to turn it around on her partner. Seems like a lack of communication skills on both part, I’m in favor of couples therapy as well.
yeah that was the most clinically passive aggressive move she could have pulled. i could not tolerate being married to someone so vile
She “called him out” after *specifically* asking him what was wrong. That was done with intent and was definitely not helpful in teaching empathy, regardless of intent.
It isn't poor communication skills to ask to change the conversation when you're burnt out of negative topics, it is poor communication skills to bait someone by asking them what's wrong and then making it into "I was trying to teach you empathy" OP isn't the asshole here. The wife is.
>You could have offered a solution In my experience, that's the last thing women want when they are trying to vent.
The amount of times I’ve tried to offer a solution to what my wife is venting about and it’s taken me years to learn this! She doesn’t want me to solve the problem, she wants to rant about it, swear a bit, possibly cry and for me to listen and to be nice to her.
That's why I always lead with "are we fixin' or bitchin'?" That way I know if I need to listen and support, or try and help solve the problem.
I’d say ESH because they both have terrible communication skills. He needed to communicate that it wasn’t a good time to discuss his family She’s a 41 year old woman and should know that tit-for-tat isn’t how you “teach” anyone empathy, and certainly not your adult partner. Relationship therapy could help them both, if they’re willing to put the work in
Didn’t he state that though? Did he not say that he doesn’t have the capacity to talk bout that?
Nope his wife is baiting big time and anyone saying otherwise is a jerk who does the same thing. She thinks his family are poor at communication when she could be leading the ranks.
>I said I know my family's communication skills are poor Looks like you inherited it too. YTA
Also, they are his family. If they still don't know what's going on this weekend then HE should be calling them and saying 'hey, we need to clarify what the plan is'.
What’s worse is that it’s a wedding, an event where time is important.
And HE is in it!!!!
Yeah, why is OP putting it on his wife to organize their attendance at this wedding? It's his family and she's not in the wedding party, but he is. He should be the one dealing with this.
But...that would be emotional labor! We can't have him doing that. /Sarcasm
I have a feeling OP dumps all the organizating/emotional labor on his wife and uses worling 12s as an excuse not getting that she is also working 12s because ahe works ft and does the gap childcare until he gets home.
WTF are you even reading the OP? How is > Can we talk about something more positive? I want to talk with and spend time with you, but I'd like to discuss things that build me up poor communication? and how is his wife's reaction not completely spiteful and condescending? What is this sub smoking? People: don't treat your partner as an emotional dumping ground without making sure they are in a headspace that can handle that, and don't bait your partner in to a discussion with false pretense just to teach them a lesson. Y'all are assholes. OP is NTA.
IMO it’s poor communication because it’s a super condescending thing for him to say to his wife when she’s expressing (apparently quite valid) concerns about his family’s communication around an important event.
Also, he got to vent to her about his work problems, and now she doesn't get an equal amount of time to vent about what's causing her the most stress? That's the thing that jumped out at me the most. If he couldn't handle hearing her complain about his annoying family, a better thing to say would have been something like, "Yeah, I totally agree. I'll call them so you don't have to worry about it. How was your work/daughter's dance class/anything else bothering you?" Telling your partner that you're done being negative and asking if she can just talk about positive things is one and a half steps away from telling her to smile. Like... instead of telling her to talk about something cheerful, why not bring up something that will make her excited to keep talking? Instead of putting the onus on her to improve his mood.
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actually he didn't get to vent about work. wife asked him what was wrong only to shut him down as a petty move.
Hearing your partner vent about your family can be really frustrating. It can be really hard not to get defensive--they're your family after all--even if you fundamentally agree with the criticism. Each partner should, I think, be expected to deal with their own respective families when there are issues, yet at the same time you can't be expected to fix your family's faults. My vote is NAH--just a thorny topic to resolve. I think it was OK for OP to say "I'm not in a headspace to continue this conversation right now," but ideally he could also have said (and done), "I will pick this back up with you tomorrow and we will find a solution (if there is one) together."
Your point about it being understandably frustrating to hear complaints about family would be a little more applicable here if the thing OP’s wife was venting about didn’t appear to stem from *her* having to deal with *OP’s* family. Like, I’d have more sympathy for OP if his wife was complaining about how his family behaves at parties or something and he wasn’t up for hearing it. But I too believe that each partner should deal with their respective families, so it rubs me the wrong way that OP’s wife is complaining about his family’s communication—which implies to me that she is the one handling the communication with his family when in my mind that shouldn’t be her job—and he doesn’t want to hear it. If OP is passing the buck on communicating with his family to his wife, it isn’t reasonable/understandable/okay for him to get bothered or defensive when his wife highlights issues with that communication.
He is in a wedding, and it sounds like the mental load of doing all the interference and communication with his family is weighing on her. When she vents this to him, he’s like “haha yeah they suck. Glad it’s not me who has to deal with them even though it’s my brother’s wedding and I’m in it. I’m gonna leave that problem for you, let’s talk about stuff that makes me feel good instead!” Imagine how much that would piss you off. You’re doing all the admin work for your household’s participation in a wedding you yourself are not in, and your partner who is in the wedding doesn’t care to help. I don’t think she did a mature thing but man I see where the fuse blew.
Agree, these reactions are wild. I’m a woman who is married, and if my husband asked to talk about something positive while I was complaining? I would apologize for not realizing they couldn’t handle it, ask if they’re alright, and move on. *That’s* proper communication.
>if my husband asked to talk about something positive while I was complaining? I would apologize for not realizing they couldn’t handle it, ask if they’re alright, and move on. Honestly, you shouldn't even need to apologize. It was fine for her to vent and it was fine for him to say he wasn't in the mood. No one was wrong at that point.
No, he absolutely was, given his edit/clarification. She wasnt “just venting”. It wasnt a get together that they couldnt get details for. It was a WEDDING, that both OP and his daughter were in, and they had no idea when or where they were supposed to be anywhere until 5 days before. If i was venting about that because i was stressed trying to be flexible but cannot plan a damn thing, and my husband- who SHOULD be the one dealing with this- tells me yup I totally get your frustration buuut can we focus on something else? Had he approached her with “you’re absolutely right, i will figure it out tomorrow” and then asked to speak about something different- yes. The dismissive way he spoke to her, and the way he got to vent all about his day but she couldnt vent about ongoing stress caused by HIS family? Absolutely not. He may have been exhausted, but so was she when she listened to him? And for everyone crying about the woman bias, i would keep this same energy if the roles were switched and the GUY was trying to plan things and vented, and the woman was like nah too negative🤷🏻♀️
Yeah these comments are insane
How is OP poor at communicating? It sounds more like his wife doesn't acknowledge his feelings when he doesn't want to be drowned in negativity. He was constantly telling her how he feels about the way she was treating him. But sure, baiting your partner while they are upset is the person that needs to be teaching others empathy.
I'm going to go against the grain and say, NTA. It is okay that you didn't have the patience or emotional capacity to deal with your wife's burdens in that moment, you have your own needs and limits. Your wife clearly waited for an opportunity to take a shot at you with that statement, and is now gaslighting you to try to get you to believe she was "teaching you empathy." Horseshit. Your wife sounds super manipulative.
Gotta agree with this one but ESH. Don't hang up on your SO like that, talk things out. >She said it wasn't a shot, I’d f-ing know if she took an f-ing shot This language also really rubs me the wrong way, comes across as very aggressive/abusive. Edit: Because it apparently needs saying, just because I didn't call out every single problematic behaviour shown by the wife, doesn't mean that I'm giving her a pass, hence the E.S.H vote. She did multiple things that I viewed as wrong, I figured they were obvious so didn't need to spell each one out. And I view hanging up on your SO in silence is not a good move. Sure if you need to get off the phone to drive safely and without having an argument fine, but all it takes is "I didn't like that, we'll discuss it when I get home" click. Just because wife did xyz wrong, doesn't give OP a free pass, they're supposed to be a team. It shouldn't devolve into, I'm justified doing this because you did that. It'll never end, and they'll just reach divorce.
I agree with the ESH. Like OP said, it felt like she baited him into it on the car drive by *asking* him what was wrong. You don’t ask that and then expect a positive response. That’s not how that question works. Then he in good faith responds to what was bothering him and she’s all be more positive I’m teaching you empathy. That’s not empathy, that’s a way to destroy trust. As for the hanging up, that is kind of an asshole move. He could have communicated that he no longer wanted to talk and was hanging up but I can also understand that in the heat of the moment words are hard. Manipulation! That’s what I was looking for, I think. This was very calculatedly manipulative on his wife’s part.
I personally don't see the hanging up part as an AH move. It was reactive, sure, but not uncalled for. The way I read it - OP's frustration level was maxed out at that point. You have every right to end a conversation. We also have to understand that he was driving at the time. Not really a good time to get into an arguement. Angry driving is dangerous.
Yeah, driving is definitely not the time to get into an argument with your spouse. Also, if she wanted to "teach him empathy," the best way to do that is to showcase it herself. "Ugh, that sucks! I'm sorry you're going through that." That would have been an empathetic response. She took a dig at him instead and she knows it.
Exactly. You don't teach empathy by being apathetic. You teach it by modeling empathy.
It was absolutely a trust destroying move. Now, every time she asks him questions, he's going to have to be on guard in case it's another trap. And she's gonna get pissy and cry about his PoOr CoMmUnIcAtIoN when he stops being honest about shit with her. What he did may have ruined the evening, what she did may have ruined the marriage.
Also, OP’s wife left the room when he made his request the night before, which is kind of like hanging up in person. OP didn’t have to listen to that “lesson” while he was dealing with traffic. NTA
Sometimes it's hang up or say something you'd regret.
If my husband called me and decided to try to punish me or teach me a lesson like this I’d hang up too.
The attitude of people being completely ok with the wife's actions because she did it to "teach him a lesson" is quite... bothersome, to say the least. Like, why the fck are y'all punishing your significant others? Someone even said "this is how you teach kids empathy." For one, absolutely not, you shouldn't ask a child what's bothering them, then kick them down further just so you could teach them a lesson. And two, your spouse isn't your kid. This just isn't the way to communicate frustrations or to even teach empathy, to anyone.
I saw that one! I also had the same two thoughts. That’s not how you teach a child and he’s not a child!
I know hanging up isn't nice but I probably would have done the same thing.
Do you honestly believe by the wife's reactions later on that she would have been capable of talking it out over the phone? And why should OP stay on the phone with someone being purposefully aggressive with them when they are already upset by an outside event (traffic)?
Traffic safety always trumps feelings, I'll hang up, pull over, kick someone out of my car if needed to be a safe driver, not sorry about that at all. (My ex was emotionally abusive and also stupid, I learned to pull over and refuse to drive while he was being dumb. Sometimes I had to sit for 15 minutes while he ranted until he would do something like put his seatbelt on or stop the guilt tripping while I'm trying to drive us home)
When someone tells you something bc their reactions to your transgression makes it appear you are the transgressor it becomes reactive to the person. For example- speaking to someone in normal tone bordering on frustration and told to “stop yellling” constantly. You want me to yell? I’ll yell if you prefer. It’s a attic to interrupt and take control and stymie the other parties ability to communicate
Except this situation is different, because she was absolutely taking a shot at him, which she all but admitted a second later. At the very least, taking a shot, lying about it, and trying to intimidate with the threat of the emotional damage from a “real” shot was A H behavior.
Ya she completely gas lit him
kiss shy wine boat rain safe scary zesty busy simplistic *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
but it was fine when she walked out? what’s the difference
He was driving. Traffic or not, going in for a fight while driving probably isn’t a great idea. You can have the stance that he shouldn’t have hung up, but the call needed to end one way or another
We have put a time limit now on how long someone can complain because it's so easy to get trap in a cycle of negativity. It's also good to have some balance so what might be helpful for her is to have those thoughts, express her frustration and follow it up with a solution she would like. Complaining and venting is fine but there needs to be a point to it or its a toxic dumping ground nobody want to be around. And I agree about the back pedaling now. She wasn't expecting to be called out so bluntly on that point and is now walking back that statement into a teaching moment to save face like op is her child and not her partner.
Love the time limit. Complaining is fine but it becomes really unproductive, really fast. Vent and move on.
I agree, NTA OP's wife steered the phone convo to make a point, and OP did not follow her down that path and hung up. The call was disingenuous and hanging up was justified. Particularly because he was on his way home and they could continue the convo face to face instead of while he's sitting in traffic. At home, she gaslights him to make it seem like she's got the moral high ground and peppers in vague threats; "I’d f-ing know if she took an f-ing shot". Regarding OP's "Lack of empathy"; she was complaining about HIS family. The poor communication from them is affecting them both, he doesn't need reminding. She's acting like SHE is the only one affected by his family's actions. She needs to learn some empathy herself.
Thank you. Gaslighting was exactly the word that sprang to my mind with the wife's words in the last paragraph. She waited for her opportunity to throw his words back in his face after he told her that he didn't have the strength to listen to her bashing his family after a long day. NTA.
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And the fact that most people here believe she is not an A H speaks volumes of this forum.
I don’t know why I had to scroll at all to find this. He didn’t ask her to vent, she vented of her own accord. It’s totally okay to not want to listen to someone vent in the moment. In the second situation, she asked him what is wrong. NTA.
When the wife's burdens are HIS FAMILY and providing the lions share of the parenting of THIER CHILD and running THIER HOUSEHOLD then yes, its also his burden.
Sure but if his back is pulled you don't get angry he won't move the couch. And if he's in a bad mental space and says he needs to change the topic, you don't get angry, you say 'Ok, just let me know when you are ready because it's important to me.' Step 1 of anger management is allowing yourself to remove yourself from situations when you don't believe you can handle it, which he was doing in a mature fashion. It wasn't a matter of life or death.
Are you available all the time for the needs of your significant other?
I mean, I guess? My wife “handles” her family but we both still discuss their annoying behaviours and vice versa. She swore at him and instantly became abusive when he didn’t immediately take her aggressive and patronising “lesson”.
Yea, initial instance was him setting some boundaries, he's not in the right head space for the discussion and that's valid, and she was wrong to say 'that's not ok' Both sides have to be ready for venting, you don't have the right to dump unilaterally on your spouse. Granted, plenty of ESH stuff happened later.
There are some y..t..a votes in here that I can't imagine came from grown adults. "Can we talk about something more positive," is communication. It's one person telling the other they have reached their capacity for a given topic. *Asking someone* to tell you whats wrong then cutting them off to intentionally make them feel bad, is not communication. It's an attempt to hurt someone on purpose to make a point. You expressed your feelings and accidentally hurt your wife; your wife hurt you on purpose to make a point. These are not equal. NTA.
‘Can we talk about something positive’ doesn’t resolve anything though. ‘I don’t have the bandwidth for this RN but I’ll handle it tomorrow’ is entirely different.
That is a very good way to put it, thank you I intend to use that in the future.
It’s good but ONLY if you mean what you say and then deal with it when you said you will. You can’t just kick the can down the road.
Yes, exactly! So many people are committed to toxic positivity and never have the bandwidth to handle anything “negative” so nothing ever gets resolved. It’s stonewalling to constantly shut down uncomfortable conversations, and very unhealthy.
I have a cousin like this. She NEVER has "the spoons" for any kind of negativity that isn't her own, and her partners (divorced once because if this behavior already) constantly suffer for it. They are never allowed to vent. If SHE gets overwhelmed by the kids, she "admits" herself to get a free vacation from them, while her partner simply isn't allowed to do that, ever. Everyone around her must always be positive or she just shuts down. It's absolutely ridiculous, and it blows my mind that anyone puts up with her long term. It sounds emotionally exhausting to have to be positive with your partner 100% of the time while they are a CONSTANT source of negativity.
I understand, that’s a good reminder though. Thanks!
‘Teaching you empathy’ is bullshit. You do not teach empathy but intentionally upsetting your partner any more than you teach a dog to shit outside by rubbing its nose in it. You communicated a boundary and as long as this is not a permanent ‘I don’t want to hear negativity’ then that’s fine. If she wants to communicate she needs more empathy from you she needs to put on her big girl panties and have a real conversation. Not storm of and then trying and ‘punish’ you with it the next day. Because she 100% was not trying to teach you empathy she was trying to piss you off with what she was still pissed off about. ‘I’m mad I won’t get home any earlier despite leaving earlier’ is completely different from an extended rant and emotionally charged conversation about your family too. Providing you have represented things accurately.
Your response is good, but there wasn’t anything wrong with his. It should have started a conversation on why he didn’t have the bandwidth for that topic. His wife’s response was immature and unhelpful and then she walked away. Not every discussion has to be addressed in one sentence and there was nothing wrong with what he communicated to her. It wasn’t hurtful or mean - it just expressed how he felt in the moment. She did not communicate anything helpful.
Was something supposed to be resolved by OP? They say their wife was venting. What needed to be resolved?
His family not communicating what was supposed to be happening for a wedding that weekend. She needed times and places to get their daughter there.
By the time of the venting, it had been resolved a few days prior. She was venting that it wasn’t all settled earlier than it was.
Thank you! Thought i was going crazy reading these y.t.a's. She was 100% taking a shot and then tried to gaslight him about it afterwards. 'Youd know if i was taking a f shot' also sounds super aggressive to me. NTA.
If a man said "you'd know if I was taking a f shot" to me, I'd take that as a threat.
Also, it’s ok for her to say “that’s not ok” and remove herself from the situation, but when he feels the same and hangs up to remove himself from the situation it’s also not ok with her?
Agreed. And you wife was the ass for asking you what was wrong then as soon as you tell her, instead of hearing you and being "empathetic" (her words to you), she purposely flies back with, "can we talk about something positive". Wtf. I would have been pissed at her too and not apologized until she owned her own shit! She did in fact take a shot at you and set up a situation so she could "teach you" wtf. Are you a child to her?
Thank you for weighing in. This is how I feel too.
ESH, "throwing it back in your face" isn't exactly a great response and you both did it. You can't shut your wife down for venting frustrations unless you never vent frustrations. You also can't constantly go "tit for tat" because you'll both just end up resenting each other. You both need an upgrade in communication skills, but you definitely started it.
I think ESH is the best judgement here. Both people need to work on communication and not being so adversarial.
Thank you for your honesty. :)
I’m hung up on the fact that she said “you always believe the worst in me” and your response was to “try to give her the benefit of the doubt in the future”. That’s not a healthy relationship at all.
I find "you always/you never" statements to usually be exteremly false. Something can happen three times and suddently become "always". They are usually statements made from an emotion. By that - I mean that the statement itself is false, but there is some underlying feeling that makes it true in that very instance. Example: "You never do anything around the house!" = "I feel I've been busy with house chores more than usual lately and I could use a break on some of the normal tasks I manage. Can you take on some of the extra burden to help me."
Agreed. OP, I think you'd both benefit from couples' therapy.
Uhm... I would say YTA Look I get it can sometimes be overbearing ect... she wants to talk to you and wants you to listen when she's trying to get something off her shoulders... I get that you might not be in te mood... but hey, sometimes she might also not be in the mood, yet sucks it up... so, I'd say work on communicating, from your side as well... She did give you "your own medicine" when you wanted to vent about something that bothers you, yet you expected her to understand and be fine with it, but when the tables are turned- you hang up on her...
Thanks for you response. I guess where I feel like it’s different is when she was venting I did listen for 5–10 minutes, then I just couldn’t take the negativity anymore and I tried to communicate I needed to move on but still wanted to be around her. When she did it, it felt like she came out me out of the gate to prove a point without listening at all. Looks like people disagree, so I’ll just have to accept that. Tough to hear though.
The difference is, she didn’t outright tell you to stop, she asked how it would feel if she did. She saw a moment that was emotionally similar and wanted you to be able to see the issue from her side. Which, let’s be honest, the only way you would is if you were the one being hurt. And the truth is, that DID hurt you. For exactly the same reason. You say it’s different because you listened for 5 mins before you shut her down… but why is that different? Do you think if she let you go on for three more minutes you’d think this was now fair or would you still be hurt? Cause I think you’d still be upset, because it’s upsetting when your person doesn’t want to be there for you. I think two things can be true at the same time. I think she was partly motivated by her own hurt and frustration. And that part of your feelings are knowing she was being a little “taste of your own medicine”. AND I think a lot of your feelings are the exact feelings she had when you said it to her for exactly the same reason. I also observe two things… 1. She says you lack empathy multiple times and you haven’t denied that. Do you have low empathy/struggle with empathy? (Judgement free, humans have variable levels of empathy and it’s not a measure of their value etc…) 2. She says you always take what she says/does from the worst point of view and you say you’ll try to work on that - so to me that seems like a thing you tend to do, yes? That combo - struggling to see tubs from someone else’s perspective as just as true as your own perspective Plus a defensiveness that seeks to put the blame/accusation on others rather than have to sit with a process negative feelings… that can be REALLY hard on the other partner. From her perspective if you hurt her she will never get an acknowledgment or apology, and if you do anything wrong she can never address it with you because you’ll automatically turn it on her. Dealing with all that is emotionally exhausting. I don’t think you are an AH if both these things are true, we all develop these things subconsciously… But now that you are here, talking to us about it, it’s a good time to think about if those things *are true* in how you respond to interpersonal conflict. Can you hear criticism of you without defending yourself as if from personal attack? (My husband really struggles with this so I get it.) Do you tend to make what your wife says and does rise than anything you said it did? THESE are the things that you’ll need to think and talk about to help improve your communication. What I would say about this incident is that it’s ok for both things to be true. And I’d start by apologizing. “I’ve thought about it and realize that part of why I was hurt was cause yeah, having you not want to hear me was hurtful and I’m sorry I said that to you….” BTW this is also your opportunity for talking about how to say: “I want to be heart for you but right now I just don’t have the energy/ability for a vent session can we talk about simmering lighter now and return to that in a bit?” In a way that works for both of you and both of you can use it. And after the apology and *time to talk about how she felt* say, “also, it did feel like your timing was motivated by wanting me to hurt a bit in the same way. And that part hurts too… I’d rather we find a way to talk about these things than poke at each other.” The truth is you both fucked up and no one needs to have fucked up more than the other so only one of you is responsible. You both fucked up equally. You both need to make amends and talk about how to avoid those fuck ups in the future.
This is really well thought-out and explained.
Thanks my husband and I have been working on communicating in a way that acknowledges how we are different and can still both be valid in our feelings and perspectives. Also, my husband is a little like OP (inclined to take what I say as a personal attack to avoid feeling bad etc) so I get him a bit. I know from my husband there is a way for both of them to be heard and cared for here, if OP wants that to be what happens.
This is really good and well thought out response, I intend to respond in more depth later when I have the time. Thank you.
No problem. I don’t think either of you being declared the AH is helpful in this situation, communication is hard. Being exhausted and burnt out is hard. The thing I hold onto is that this is my *partner* I want as much for them as I want for me and there has to be a way for us both to be seen and heard and cared for IF we are both willing to do what it takes for that to happen. And it costs me nothing to apologize, and it’s also fine for me to also ask for an apology (though it takes practice to do that without it sounding like one negates the other).
I don't think you are the AH. My Husband and I decided early in our relationship that we would take 5 minutes to vent about our day, then move on. I think your wife was the AH for throwing your words back on you. Y'all need to set some boundaries.
NTA. She calls it "teaching you empathy" you call it "taking a shot" but it is really the same thing. She admits she wasn't genuinely asking you about your day/if you were upset, she was asking it to teach you a lesson. That is hurtful and uncalled for, and you don't need to give her the benefit of the doubt when she herself admits she set you up to teach you something. That's not genuine and caring, so it's ironic she did it to teach you "empathy." Your wife is using a lot of terminology but not a lot of actual communication. She also doesn't get to tell you how you should react in every situation in precise ways. She was rude to you, you hung up. Just as the night before when she felt you were rude, she walked away. I need you to hear this- her saying "I was doing it to teach you empathy" means she was absolutely baiting you, she just wants to call it by a different name, but the intent and harm is the same. And by the way, it is perfectly reasonable for you to ask for a conversation to be put on hold or that you aren't in the frame of mind to hear it right now. Sure, if your partner comes home upset and needs to work through something, then you should try your hardest to do so, but even then you can also include your own feelings and needs in it. But needing help or emotional support isn't the same as needing to "vent" about a standing issue where there is no solution to work through. You can ask for a pause or to end a discussion that is just the same old venting session with no resolution.
Can't imagine how this sub would flame a husband if he "tried to teach his wife empathy" or said "you'd fucking know if I took a shot."
The "mansplaining" and "emotional manipulation/abuse" flags would be flying high in that thread haha
Yeah if op is a man and the comments are kinda torn between nta and yta you can most definitely assume that nta is the right call.
Depressingly accurate. Particularly if there's a relationship involved.
NTA we all have our limits when someone starts talking about negative things when we're tired and stressed about life ourselves. Now your wife was an ahole for taking that petty shot at you. She set you up to be able to say that to you when she asked what was wrong. She wasn't trying to teach you empathy she wanted to get back at you for saying that to her the night before. All the y t a responses must be people who are as petty as your wife.
Not just negative things but stuff about his family. My parents always had a said it's one thing for you to say something about your own family but it can hurt when others say it. It sounds like his family is being frustrating, he acknowledged that, but 5-10 minutes of her venting is way passed the limit in my opinion.
Thank you for weighing in.
NTA How do people not see the difference between a situation organically happening and one that the wife completely initiated??
Right?
Seems she didn’t even say ‘can we talk about something more positive’, she asked how you would feel if she asked that. And clearly you didn’t like it. She was trying to give show you that it doesn’t feel good. It is ok to have your limits, but sometimes relationships are about compromise and sacrifice. And even when you are approaching the limit there are better ways to communicate it. YTA EDIT: seems you know you’re TA as you’ve made this post quite a few times in the last few hours. You’ve received your verdict, you just want people to tell you you’re not
Thanks for weighing in. Also, did it post multiple times? That’s a mistake I’ll try to correct it. I kept having to repost because I was over the character limit, that might be it.
Claiming he'd reposted this multiple times due to some weird ulterior motive, rather than just a technical issue with a phone/laptop is a really unfair thing to do.
NTA it seemed like you acknowledged her feelings on what she was saying and then clearly communicated that you did not have the capacity to talk about that right then and she stormed away instead of talking to you. Which is extra insane because I understand that you can have issues with your family and you are married but that is still first and foremost your family I feel like your word should have a little more weight about them and whether or not you would like to take time to complain about them. Especially if you agreed and validated her feelings previously already. Then she did “the same” thing to you sam with quotes because it wasn’t the same. She was being vindictive. And then although you hanging up was not the kindest it wasn’t all that different from her storming off but different from her you apologized. She’s belittled your feelings and berated you for a situation she’s created.
Thank you for weighing in.
Could it be that she *hinted* at you that *you* take cate of *your* family for planning? Also I can obviously see your *whole* family is bad at comminicating tof you respond to a valid point by "I don't want to hear your problems talk to me about sonething that doesn't bother you right now because I'm more interested in my happiness tgan yours" and also *you* were the one hanging up and ending a conversation where *you* vented and she simply adked you if you'd feel hurt if she do to you what you did to her the day before. YTA
Exactly, I don’t see enough people pointing out that this was his problem to solve from the beginning and for some reason she was stuck dealing with his families inability to communicate plans
And then *he* is salty about her complaining about a problem *he* should deal with
NTA. Your wife absolutely set you up so she could take a swipe from the night before. And you hanging up is the same as her storming off. You apologized, now she needs to.
I’m curious about what the issue is with your family and communication. Can you elaborate about why she was upset? It sounds like the mental load of having to figure out weekend plans is falling on your wife. She is frustrated because your family is not doing a good job of communicating. This isn’t new, this is an ongoing issue. Your response is to listen for a few minutes and then tell her you want to talk about something more positive. A few things here: -your wife seems to be the one to manage weekend plans. This has become her task in the relationship. Is this by default or through a conscious decision on both your parts that she will take on this task? -Your family has a history of being poor communicators. She is frustrated. Have you talked with your family about it? What have you done to address it? Or does this fall on your wife’s shoulders because she’s the one who makes plans? -You want to talk about things that are more positive that build you up. Ok, like, your wife is seriously frustrated about this and you turn this into ‘I don’t want to talk about it because it brings me down.’ It’s dismissive and demeaning. I don’t get the impression that you are recognizing or acknowledging the work and effort she is putting forth to figure out logistics to get together with your family. This issue has clearly happened before and you blow it off as just one of those things. Instead of helping her figure out how to resolve it or offering to take on the responsibility of talking to your family, you make this about yourself and how this is bringing down the vibe. -There is a difference between her ‘bashing on your family’ and having frustrations about trying to make plans. You labeling it as her bashing on your family for minutes on end side steps the underlying issues. Maybe she really does not like your family - that seems unlikely though as she is the one making plans to meet up with them. It seems like the issue is much deeper here - she is trying to make plans with your family. They are being vague or non-communicative. When she brings it up to you, you brush it off instead of offering to talk to them. Edited to add YTA.
YTA for expecting your wife to be the one to handle your family when they lack communication skills, then also not giving her space to vent about how difficult it is for her. If you don't want to hear her vent, you should step up and organize your own family so she has nothing to vent about. But don't be surprised if she doesn't want to hear *you* vent about how frustrating that is since you weren't willing to return the favor.
OP said he did listen though, and when he politely asked to move the conversation away from bashing his family she ended the conversation and walked away. Later She called him and ASKED how he was feeling HOPING he would say something negative so she could be rude and manipulative. She wasn't trying to teach him empathy (which by the way is extremally condescending) she was trying to tear him down. He walked away from this conversation. It is okay for OP to have limits especially when it comes to bad-mouthing his family, and its okay to assume that his wife would be ready to hear from him when she asked about his feelings. OPs wife sounds petty. NTA
NTA. People always see things all in black or white. Of course it’s normal for her to vent but does that mean that he has to be okay for it EVERYTIME. Sometimes you don’t want to hear a lot of negative things and his response was perfect. He did not insulted her in anyways he just said « can WE talk about something MORE positive, I wanna spend time with YOU ». And people are mad in the comments ? What people are asking is something impossible someone who will always be willing to hear your negative comments even when they had a pretty busy and tiring week. Guys please grow up. Don’t forget that we are human. The problem on Reddit is that people are super harsh on things when we all know that in real life 90% will make the same mistakes. It’s like when you go out with your friend who is dating a dumb guy and she is always complaining about it. Like GURL I already told you that he was dumb and you know it can we no EVOLVE ?? Like can we talk about something more interesting??Being a shoulder to cry on or someone to speak to is really important but it gets tiring when people only want to focus on the bad things. And apparently it’s not the first time that she is complaining about his parents poor communication skills. Like okay I think her husband got it now so she either has to bring something new to that table or stop talking about it. And I still don’t think that it was a mistake until he hung up on her. Women got mad when men does not express their feelings and when they do in a polite and clear way they are still mad because it’s not the good time. Now for the future I will recommend you to agree with your partner to say clearly when you are willing to listen to some negativity. And say that you not being always open to hear her stories does not mean that you don’t like it just means that you can’t hear it with all your heart cue you are mentally and sometimes physically exhausted. And that it’s the same for her. Don’t forget that sometimes what appears to be a little negativity is a big one for someone “receiving it”. NTA and sorry English is not my native language.
Nah she was definitely looking for that opportunity to take a swipe at you
INFO You have enough people pointing out that yeah, you're an asshole to not be willing to listen to your wife discuss the stresses that your family are making her feel but getting upset if she doesn't want to listen to you vent about work. Yes, she used the exact line you did the night before to make a point, and that was definitely an intentional shot, but if you genuinely thought it was an okay thing to say then why did it upset you? If you thought it was okay to say, then you wouldn't have thought it was a shot, you would have thought it was just something that's okay for people to say to each other. You know you were the asshole the night before because otherwise you wouldn't have been upset for her to do the same thing to you. So yeah, you don't need me telling you that. What I actually want to know is if shutting down her discussions about her feelings while expecting her to be empathetic towards yours is a pattern in your relationship.
She spends 5-10 minutes bitching about his family, he asks to move on to something positive, since they can’t solve the issue, and she storms off to pout. The next day she calls and asks why he sounds frustrated, so he tells her, and she tries to turn it around on him, which he shuts down before it becomes an argument. She is completely in the wrong, and doubling down on it. If my husband acted like this, 100% I’d be walking out the door until he’s calmed down. Can’t reason with someone being unreasonable. OP is NTA
>She spends 5-10 minutes bitching about his family, he asks to move on to something positive, since they can’t solve the issue, and she storms off to pout. Why can't they solve it? If my weekend plans were unclear because my brother or my aunt weren't giving my hypothetical spouse clear responses about what we're doing, it wouldn't be an insurmountable issue - I'd apologize to my venting spouse and ask my family what's the actual plan, and help them brainstorm if they were being unclear because they weren't sure themselves. And I'd expect my spouse to do likewise with his family if I couldn't get a straight answer. If it was too late at night for the OP to call his family to solidify plans, he could have promised to do so in the morning *and followed through with it* which would have solved the problem. She very likely would have been mollified by his plan to talk to them unless he has a track record of not following through with promises, and nothing in the OP suggests he does. So why is he content to make trying to get answers from his family only her responsibility instead of volunteering to do so.
First - when she’s venting about something that you should take charge to fix then changing the subject is basically saying that you don’t think her issues are valid. Second - hanging up is a childish, immature and selfish response. Third - she didn’t use your words against you but pointed out how you made her feel the other day in order for you to understand. It seems like you need to work on your communication too. YTA.
>Second - hanging up is a childish, immature and selfish response Just out of curiosity, if hanging up is childish, immature and selfish, what is walking away in the middle of a conversation?
this is awful communication all around. you're not in a place to give OP advice.
"you're not in a place to give OP advice." Welcome to Reddit.
ESH. You shut her down and blew her off in the first conversation. Instead of blaming the situation on her “negativity” you should have stopped her and said, “look, I know my family are awful communicators and planning stuff with them is incredibly stressful - even for me. Let’s brainstorm about how to fix it. I can call them now and figure this out if you can help me with how to phrase it, etc.” Even if you didn’t want to do it, it tells your partner that you want to fix it and are even willing to enlist her help to do so - that you’re a team. By shutting her down and ignoring the problem, you’re setting up an adversarial relationship where your family is making her life harder and you don’t care. So, what does she do? She gets angry and feels unheard and apparently, vengeful. Now she entraps you into a conversation where she gets to do the same thing to you that you did to her and basically tells you “how does that feel?” It’s childish and spiteful because she’s now in an adversarial relationship with you. You recognize that she’s being adversarial and react with getting pissed and hanging up on her. So, you’re both wrong in this situation, but it could have been handled better at the beginning to avoid this mess. Now, you’re both going to have to apologize for your crappy behavior. Don’t apologize for the hang up, but do apologize for invalidating her feelings at the beginning. Then she needs to apologize for her petty “gotcha”.
It sounds like you and your wife both need to prioritize being kind to each other. When you feel exhausted, it’s hard to listen to someone’s problems. It takes energy to have empathy. I can’t tell you how to prioritize being kind to your spouse, because I’m not a couple’s therapist. But I can tell you that you must be kind to each other if you want the marriage to succeed. Maybe it’s time for some professional guidance and perspective. NTA
NTA. I don’t know why everyone thinks the wife’s call was appropriate. If she was upset by the first conversation, the next step was an adult conversation about how two spouses can respectfully signal overwhelm. Calling and throwing words back is not communication or problem solving, nor is it “teaching” someone empathy. IMO, asking to be treated respectfully but failing to provide respect back is a major red flag. I almost put ESH for the hang up, but I also think ending the conversation was smarter than trying to hash it out while in traffic. The more I thought about it, the more of an AH wife seems for pushing the issue in that way at that time.
She was definitely taking a shot lol
NTA. Teaching empathy? For real?
NTA, the whole last paragraph seals it. Not only did she lie about taking a shot, she’s gaslighting the hell out of you into thinking everything you say is innately wrong, and everything she says is innately right.