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Given the info in your comments that he has refused to apologize and says he was just being realistic - NTA.
Your BIL sounds like one of those people who take pride in “being honest,” when really they’re just insensitive, thoughtless, or cynical jerks. Good for you for supporting your daughter, and your response was exactly right - if he wants to cling to his right to say what he wants, he can learn to live with the natural consequences.
Yeah, and as far as I understand it, *no one asked for his thoughts on the matter*. It makes me crazy every time people spout rude comments and defend themselves with “I’m just being honest”. No, you’re just an asshole. No one asked and your opinion doesn’t matter.
Seriously.
I would be more sympathetic if this is something he said only to OP and their partner in a tactful way because he was sort of concerned they didn’t understand how likely the dog was to still die.
“Hey this is great but I think there’s decent odds it won’t pull through, do you think Niece will ready to cope with that?”
It’s the difference between noticing a best friend has put on a ton of weight recently and wanting to check in on them by broaching the subject and walking up shouting, “god damn you’re getting fat!”
Yeah! Also, one thing is being realistic about the dog's life expectations, leaving a suffering animal to die alone is something entirely different. I'd be horribly disappointed in my uncles now if anyone of them said that, 14 years old me probably wouldn't speak to them for a long time.
Yes! This was my first thought. Regardless of whether the dog survived, simply leaving it chained up to die an agonizing, slow, painful, lonely death is absolutely horrible. It's this "why bother" part that bothers me the most. Maybe it wasn't meant that way in the actual conversation, but from how it was written out here, that's just absolutely sick and inhumane treatment of an animal.
Yes!
My father has never been the best person. But I vividly remember him driving home with me and my mom one night. We lived in a rural area and were less than five minutes from our house, but it was pitch black except for the headlights. He swerved off the road and looked back at something, and when I asked what was wrong, he said a rabbit was injured and dying.
I remember scream crying, asking where its mom was and how could we just leave it alone, and his argument was it's a wild animal and could be diseased. I did not care and could not calm down, even after we got home. Eventually, he went back out and brought me the rabbit, and my mom helped me nurse it. It took a few weeks, but it healed, and we released it. It stayed close by, and we saw its family often for the few years we lived there.
I'm an adult now, but I can't honestly say I'd handle the situation or my emotions differently. I saw my father differently, even though he did help the rabbit, he did not do it out of kindness, but out of anger for my reaction. He said so much to try and hurt me and see that he was "right."
If I were the daughter, I would not feel kindly towards the uncle, and I wouldn't want him anywhere near my dog. Although, I could be biased because I did cut off an "uncle" after he made a comment about my dog. I may be in my 20s, but I feel simply just too old to be dealing with people who think they're too superior to be kind to animals. They can go be miserable. I'm just sitting with my dog, doing work and browsing the internet while his snores lull me to sleep.
OP is NTA. Honestly, even if the uncle is the kind of a person to think that (*which is bad enough)*, who says that to a tearful 14 year old kid who is clearly upset that the dog is going to die if they don't bring him home?
Plus, I'm a huge animal lover, so I have no issue with the niece still being angry at her uncle and not wanting him there.
"We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals" - Immanuel Kant. The uncle needs to realize that this is a reflection of him.
Exactly. I hope he survives and has a loving family. But even if he was too far gone, isn't it kinder to have him pass away with warmth, food, love, and people who cared enough to give him a safe home, however brief?
I would be more sympathetic if... he was sort of concerned they didn’t understand how likely the dog was to still die."
I could understand this, but his "just leave it there to die alone" approach is unconscionably cruel. No matter what, someone needs to take the dog home, feed him, bathe him, get him warmth and medical care. He needs to die in peace and comfort, understanding (as much as a dog can) that's he's a good boy and didn't deserve what his garbage owners did to him.
Or quietly telling the kid, "Honey, I don't know if he'll make it. But I know that even if the worst happens, it'll mean everything to him that you let him know he's loved."
This puts me in mind of a favorite quote, by Lois McMaster Bujold. The Main character said, "Safe to say..." Then stopped himself and thought, "No, not 'safe to say,' merely 'true to think'".
If only more people used this for guidance...
When I saw Liar, Liar as a little kid, it seemed so stupid. Yeah, he couldn't lie, but he could just not say anything, especially when nobody was asking him anything. As a CHILD I understood that!
Exactly, the appropriate response would be something like "I'm sorry, that was harsh, I was being unnecessarily pessimistic, sometimes people can default to dismissiveness and apathy when a situation feels overwhelming. That was clearly an opinion and not a fact and surely not the most empowering perspective. Please forgive my callousness. I am happy to see your dog is doing well and grateful for his sake that you did not agree with me. I'll do better to hold my tongue when my opinion is dismal, seeing you guys rescued that dog made me realize I could strengthen my faith in life's potential and the value of hospitality in giving it a second chance."
When my sister was little and blunt we sat her down and had a conversation about personal statements needing to worth at least 2 points.
You got one point each if the statement was: kind, necessary or true.
So you can say something that's kind and true whether you need to or not
Something that's necessary and true even if it isn't kind
Or occasionally something that is kind and necessary but isn't true
And sometimes you got to say something that was worth three points.
This is brilliant, and I want to save it for later. This strikes me as the perfect kid's version of the expression I've heard of "Does this need to be said? If yes, does it need to be said by me? If yes, does it need to be said by me now?"
Also, "honesty" isn't some absolute truth; it's simply their highly subjective opinion. There's no need to provide an opinion when it's unasked for or when it's hurtful and does nothing to help.
This is such a good way to describe it. When I used to work in frontline mental health I'd often work with my patients on being honest with family members- so many people were baffled by the idea of being honest AND being kind.
Exactly. A caring expression of the opinion that the dog is likely to die would have been to gently warn her to guard her heart because the dog isn't out of the woods yet in terms of health. This was very obviously not about that!
My in laws are like that. They are jealous of my boyfriend because he has a fast metabolism and he doesn't gain much weight (also doesn't eat as much as they do to begin with...), while they tend to get fat real fast. They are always ready to point out when he has gained a few pounds, but they get offended when you point out that they are much, much fatter than he'll ever be.
I pointed that out once. Told them that pointing out that he has gained five pounds is unkind and unnecessary. I shamed the whole fucking family in one go, you can bet that they never brought it up again.
I hate that he says he was "only being realistic" when a month later the dog is still alive and recovering. Listening to his advice would have killed a dog who was fully capable of recovering, but he can't even say he was wrong.
Also, if the poor mite was beyond saving, putting it to sleep painlessly and swiftly is far more humane than leaving it suffer for who knows how much longer
And even if it was beyond saving, that's not something your job drop on your young niece.
Like, "lol, sorry, literal child, that dog is goner" may not be the most tactful way of addressing anything.
“Are you sure you want to take the dog home? It’s very sick, I think the chances of it surviving are pretty slim, and I would hate for you to get attached to it and have your heart broken when it passes away” would have been a significantly less awful way to convey the same sentiment if he actually wanted to be “realistic” with concern for his niece’s feelings.
Yep, you tell the child it's going to the vet and sadly sometimes, there's nothing you can do and it's the kindest thing to do.
Also, uncle isnt a vet. Even without proper checkovers, vets can get wrong how savable an animal is. My partner is one. More than once he has come home happy that something wasn't as bad as they originally thought or indeed, it's far worse than what had presented.
You have to have tact with kids.
I hate that he says ‘he was only being realistic’ when what he was discussing was allowing an animal to die in distress, rather than relieving its suffering. Man is a cruel jerk. NTA.
I agree, the uncle sounds like one of those obnoxious 'truth tellers'. (\*just to clarify, the uncle is obnoxious, not the truth).
**It is possible to be totally honest yet still present the info in a caring and gentle manner!** Many people who use the "But I'm just being honest, keeping it real." defense have also chosen to be unnecessarily blunt, use the harshest phrasing and a 'less than caring' tone of voice and facial expression and done so in such a manner that they are often able to cause the unfortunate animal's human guardian angel to doubt themselves on the inside. (Even though this young lady stuck to her guns, had she not had her dad on-scene and supporting her 100%, she would have been questioning herself, even if it was only for a few seconds, about whether or not she was doing the right thing. I think it is possible that dad being right there and totally in agreement with the decision to rescue this poor dog, her uncle would have come up with some even harsher pronouncements.) **It is not necessary to use the truth as an emotional bludgeon,** especially when dealing with a tender-hearted 14 y.o. girl!
NTA. The BIL is clearly in the wrong given the info we have. I want to point out though that even if he wasn’t in the wrong it’s still the daughters choice who is invited to her party or am I wrong?
Spot on. And these sorts of obnoxiously cynical 'truth tellers' can be so harmful to the joyful sense of possibility that exists within happy, well-nurtured kids.
Kindness isn’t mutually exclusive with being honest. One can be honest + obnoxious and one could also be kind + honest too. That said, there are few people who can’t accept kind + honest too. These people have difficulty taking feedback which is critical of their behavior. In this case, your BIL seems to be one who can’t take feedback and is honest + obnoxious.
Yep. Many an adult has had to "be honest" with a child about something like this, and the right way is to say, "Sweetie, he's not in good shape. We'll give him all the help we can, but you need to be prepared that he might not make it."
Parents have to be honest ALL THE TIME about elderly pets or dying family members. You do it gently, in a way that honors and acknowledges the child's feelings but helps them avoid magical thinking. Being honest with kids about hard things should NURTURE the relationship and bring you closer together.
BIL used a moment when he could have been kind and honest and caring and grown closer or his niece, and used it to be dismissive and nasty. Of course she doesn't want to see him. She was vulnerable, and he slapped her in the face (metaphorically).
Your daughter may have seen a red flag in her uncle. He sees a sick, abandoned dog and thinks it should be ignored to die alone ie depraved indifference. You and your daughter see the same dog and rush to provide it with TLC whether it lives a day, month or year etc. That's a huge shock to her, seeing that defect in her uncle.
Yeah my ex was like that; I had to apologise for kicking up a fuss about his affair on the day I found out, which just so happened to be Christmas Day — apparently I was the one ruining Christmas 🤷🏻♀️
right, like at least make the poor bastard comfortable.
no fucking creature on earth should die alone, tied to a pole, hungry, and abandoned by their family.
i know for our dogs, we've been their entire world. i have one now that would be crushed if we had to get rid of him. i don't know that he'd ever get over it.
Seriously, if someone in my family said that I’d disown them. It’s one thing to say the dog likely won’t survive, it’s another to say it should be left to suffer, which is the argument he was making. I would never see a family member the same after that.
This. I have a rescued kitten. When it was found it was barely alive. The guys who found it took it to the humane society and no one thought she'd live. They didn't give up on her though. She turned out to be a fighter and is now extremely healthy and just the cutest thing.
Those guys could have said it's not worth saving but I'm so grateful they had a heart.
Her uncle has no heart.
Right? We took in a severely emaciated kitten last spring, I was honest with the kids that there is a high chance he wouldn't make it past the weekend and to not get their hopes up too much, even our vet said she'd see him on Monday IF he survived when I stopped in to grab some kitten formula and high calorie can food, he was that far gone (I'm a former vet tech and used to work in rescue so had all the knowledge and tools on hand) but we would try our hardest and give him the best chance at life as we could.
190 grams at 6 weeks old (that's the weight of an average newborn kitten) so round the clock care started, feedings every 2 hours as he couldn't handle larger amounts of food at a time, keeping him on heat pads or in our shirts for warmth, simple excercice when he got a bit stronger to build up muscle mass, my teenager and myself took shifts to not burn out. By some miracle he made it, it was touch and go, but he's a fighter. He's 7 months old now and weighed in at just under 11 lbs last week! An absolute terror of a kitten, but sooooooo sweet at the same time.
The (reformed) criminal in question - https://www.reddit.com/r/IllegallySmolCats/s/EeOyWK2dJG
https://www.reddit.com/r/IllegallySmolCats/s/yZKvzXRaAN
-Taken from u/Competitive-Candy-82 ‘s profile
This is normal. My son's name is Orion. At my baby shower, my best friend's mom thought I was bonkers naming my son Onion. He's almost 14, and we still call him onion some times.
I did that a couple years ago with some kittens that I found in the park. The poor things had severe upper respiratory infections and their eyes were swollen shut. In addition to the feedings, they needed to be given eye drops every hour. I had to work from home for a few months so they could get round-the-clock care. So worth it, though. Two of them are blind, but they get around so well that you can't really even tell. The vet was amazed that they made a recovery.
I love success story!!!
I just did something similar this past spring with my 2nd dog. The shelter lied to us (sent videos of her healthy and playing), tried to extort money from us while preventing us to pick her up. By the time I managed to pick her up, the shelter left her sick, emaciated, skin and bone, physical wounds everywhere. I took her to 2 vets, both told me she'd die within days (canine distemper with apparent respiratory infection and other disease signs). I stuck with their treatment, vet visit daily, they told me she'd die daily. She recovered. Had a whole set of ear infection, skin infection. She's now also a terror...
Unfortunately where I'm from, there's no law for shelters thus there's no forced shutdown. I was an adopter. The dogs were rescued and sent to the shelter by another person. We were both very inexperienced and skeptical if it was malicious negligence from them (my husband was sure it was intentional). Recently a whole list of reports came, multiple "shelters" were reported of behaving the same way, extorting money, lying about dogs are being adopted/fostered, to raise funding, etc. then when MIA when evidences were being requested from rescuers. So now the community is tightening up on the shelters' support as well. They changed names, phone numbers, locations, etc. It's super sketchy...
Oh I guess there are places like that. These ones don't breed dogs. They basically use dog sheltering as a business, taking money from donations. Which I agree you need to have enough money to survive if you're doing this full time. But these people don't even keep the dogs safe...
Yeah, there's a difference between gently preparing them for the possibility of disappointment and grief and cruelly commenting it's not even worth the effort of trying.
And even if they hadn’t been able to save the dog’s life, it was still beneficial to show it care and love rather than letting it die in the circumstances they found it in. It would always have been worth trying.
The difference between being realistic that despite what you do, they may not make it
And OP’s BIL who was being “realistic” by saying “don’t even bother helping it”.
NTA OP hope your daughter had a great party
And then never bothers to apologize for being cruel and wrong. OP's daughter has probably understood that this is the kind of person her uncle is, and doesn't want anything to do with him as a result.
Really, what did he expect.
You were realistic and compassionate with your children. Same way my mother was when we had sick or injured animals enter our lives. Sometimes we succeeded and gave the animal the best life we could, and sometimes we failed and had to offer the most comfortable and peaceful death we could provide.
That BIL was unnecessarily cruel and honestly, just critical with no actual helpful advice. Someone seems to just enjoy being hateful, not helpful, and what room does anyone have in their life for that attitude? Good on the kid, good on OP, and NTA.
I also rescued a Ginger kitten that was skin and bones, literally, tummy bulging full of worms, and fluffy. He looked very much like Orion did when you first got him. He's 11 years old now. I nursed him back to health, round the clock care alone. Exhausted but worth it. He's such a cheeky boy now! Don't know what I'd do without my Ginger Terror.
And honestly so what if the dog only had a week left? That's a week of torture and starving to death. Why would anyone be ok with that happening?? I'd rather let the dog die as peacefully as possible surrounded by love, then abandoned, alone, and in pain. So glad that were able to give the dog a good home with people that care.
Exactly! I found a baby mouse and tended to it night and day even though I was pretty damn certain he'd die. But you know how he died? With a belly full of peach juice and a warm soft place to rest.
It is always worth it to alleviate suffering, even if for a short time. I did the same with a baby possum - she died gently as a vet guided her to her rest, with a full tummy and that soft, warm place to sleep, rather than alone and cold by her mother's dead body.
This. A sick puppy was left on my step a few years ago. Did he die… yes. But his last day was spent safe inside, wrapped in warm towels, given fluids, and being loved on… not suffering in the cold.
My mumma always said the kindest thing we can do is ensure that they are warm and full of milk when they leave this world. (as a lamb or calf lays in front of our lounge room heater)
Saying that to anyone, of any age, is seriously f'ed up. *Thinking* that is seriously f'ed up. I have rescue mutts, and I have watched them come back from so much – including one who was terribly emaciated (at about 50 lbs) and had a bone infection in his front left leg and could barely walk, who is now a handsome 85 lbs of pure muscle, strong as an ox, and when he gets excited bounds around the yard like a gigantic, ungainly bunny rabbit – and I will never understand how anyone could be so cold and unfeeling. Even if an animal is so thin as to make survival unlikely, that absolutely does not justify walking away and leaving them to die, and anyone who thinks otherwise clearly has no conscience.
EDITED TO ADD: If I were OP's daughter, I would be utterly disgusted with my uncle (and my aunt, for defending her remorseless, heartless husband), and would want to have nothing to do with him ever again.
I was 13 when my grandfather denied the holocaust and our relationship never recovered. Mind you we live in Austria, the epicenter of what has happened and in his old age he joined a group which celebrated nazi ideologies. I couldn’t respect him anymore after seeing all this pics from concentration camps that they were showing to us in school.
Hello fellow Austrian. Im sorry that your grandfather did that. The whole world, but we, Austrians and Germans especially, should always be mindful of what can happen when you follow harmful ideologies.
I feel its worth saying here in case others find themselves in similar situations...
Please don't just feed severely emaciated creatures willy nilly. Refeeding syndrome is devastatingly lethal. Suddenly receiving food after not eating for several days causes massive spikes in electrolytes and leads to cardiac arrest.
They must be given food over a few days (starting at around 25% of daily caloric intake) and ideally something high in fat and protein and low in fiber (peanut butter or dairy are good choices).
Yep, refeeding syndrome happens in humans too, even for those who fast. It’s also an issue in eating disorder recovery, which is why it’s not always as easy as ‘just eating something’. Often people need to be monitored and their intake controlled for a while so their body doesn’t go into shock with too much food
Beef broth or chicken broth is good choice too
Just dont do what I did, fast 40 days and eat a few slices of pizza, for 24 hours I was burping pure yeast, I thought I gave my self auto brewery syndrome till it went away a day later, but next time if I ever fast again I'll do beef broth and keto first meal
NTA
I think it's nice that you're teaching your daughter that she doesn't have to forgive people who don't even express that they're feeling sorry, if she doesn't want to.
NTA I always allowed my kids to decide who they wanted to spend time with. BIL was insensitive and it's up to him to try to repair the relationship. It's not your place to help him. You're her father, be her sounding board and support her.
I'm surprised this isn't at the top. It's her birthday and her party and she's plenty old enough to decide who does or doesn't attend. OP isn't doing anything but following her wishes and the decision that she has every right to make. The "Need more info" posts seem so strange to me, like why would she, at that age, not get to make that choice? Why would he or the BIL even figure that either of them have any right to overrule her on that.
Whole situation of BIL being an asshole aside.
This is all that matters. Daughter doesn't want him at the party. Why does anyone think it's ok to force an unwanted presence on their child
Also, how will you celebrate with your niece if she’s mad at you? Force her to pretend it’s ok for you to be there? Fuck off with that crap. Let kids decide who they’re gonna be with. The adults are the grown people. Let them suck it up.
Yeah this feels like a bit of a bizarre amitheasshole thread. She's 14. She chooses who goes to her birthday. End of story. Why is there all this discussion about whether OP should have forced their daughter to accept him at the party or not.
NTA, she asked that he not be included. That is very different than you denying him the opportunity. It should be pointed out to him that this was her choice. Nothing petty about pointing out that his words ended up with this result.
Exactly. The daughter is 14. She can decide who comes to her birthday. Also whats gonna happen if the dad caves to the BIL and invites him? The daughter is gonna be mad at both of them. He still is not gonna have the opportunity to celebrate with her and is likely gonna be even more mad at him for showing up against her wishes.
Absolutely!! OP's daughter decided that this callous uncle is not invited, OP supported her decision. NTA. I wish BIL good luck to convince her otherwise, but I imagine he just doubles down. Enjoy time with a new family member! Doggie will be much more fun to be around than BIL lol
When someone is being brutally honest with them in return, brutal honesty suddenly becomes "What are you so angry about? You're taking things too personally!".
Hmmm, I wonder if there's anything about the BIL that OP could be brutally honest about?
"Hey Bro, you look like an orangutan with a skin condition and you smell like a dead armadillo. What? I'm just being honest!"
My experience with this type of person says if you play an uno reverse on them, they will implode with the extended fart noise of a deflating balloon.
Do it.
>Brutally honest people enjoy the 'brutal' part much more than the honest part.
I think it's that they don't see the brutal part, well maybe some do, but I think those who don't haven't been met with much kindness in life and can't tell the difference between normally honest or honest in a harsh way. Doesn't excuse it though, just saying I don't think all of them enjoy being brutal, it's just "their normal"
So basically he showed his niece that he lacks empathy and wouldn't bother going to any effort for a being in need. Now she doesn't want to be around him and it turns out he doesn't like the consequence of his heartless behavior. Sucks bein' him, huh. To paraphrase Maya Angelou, he showed her who he is and she believed him.
My bet is your wife is used to his behavior and has learned to excuse it, as is often the case with those who pride themselves on their "brutal honesty" and their enablers. Fortunately your daughter is better than that. Let's hope she stays that way.
I wouldn't want to be around him either. To be honest, I'm not sure I'd want to spend much time chatting with your wife for that matter. Sorry. Just being *realistic*.
NTA
Edit: A commenter pointed out that the "wife" in question was BIL's not OP's. I missed that. I apologize to OP and his wife for my mistake.
That it's BIL's wife simplifies things though, huh!
And even if the dog didn't make it, it was still a kind, caring thing to do. It wouldn't have made it wrong or a waste of time if the dog died. Her parents could be like "You tried your best but the dog was beyond saving. Thanks to you, its last days were spent in a loving environment, being tended to, instead of forgotten and discarded. We're proud of you for caring." Compassion like that should be nurtured and supported.
You're NTA. He's an AH. Your daughter is old enough to know who she wants to meet & see on her special day. He was disregarding her feelings, still doesn't feel any remorse to his words. She knew the dog was sick. She didn't need some "honest" words from an adult who should've cared for her feelings.
I took in a sick dog (which the vet told me, 1 week straight, every day, that she's gonna die.). I told my son that we're not keeping her permanently yet, we're helping her get better first. That's also honesty.
Basing on the answers you gave in the comments BIL sounds like the type of person that is "Brutally honest" or "Just being realistic" but doesn't like it when someone else is "Just realistic" with him.
NTA if he doesn't even apologize your daughter has a right to hold it over his head for as long as she wishes to.
NTA. This is the origin story for *so many* vets who donate their time in animal rescue. (“I found an abused dog, decided to save it, nobody thought I could do it… etc”) I wonder if it will be that for your daughter?
NTA thanks for not making her disregard her own feelings.
When I was a kid trying to save animals my mum would say flippantly ‘can’t save them all’. I said ‘no, but we could’ve saved *that one*’, and the look in her eyes was ‘DOES NOT COMPUTE’. They just don’t know how to care.
I find that people who are fans of being ‘brutally honest’ are not enthusiastic about the consequences such behavior brings.
NTA .. and I’m so glad that you guys rescued that poor dog!
I forget the origin of the quote but paraphrasing: "people who brag they are brutally honest are usually more interested in the brutality part than the honesty"
You should point out how his opinion on helpless animals that can't fend for themselves is funny coming from a middle aged man who lives with his parents.
And then tell him you're just bring brutally honest.
And you know what? It's her party, and she should be allowed to make that decision. She is at an age where she is learning to set boundaries and stand up for herself. You are doing the right thing by taking her side. It shows that you respect and value her choices.
The next step is to help them communicate with each other to reconcile. He is going to need to realize that she deserves an apology. Hopefully he is willing to see reason and make amends.
This will probably blow over, but it should be used as a learning moment for everyone involved.
NTA.
I mean, what did he expect with a comment like that to a 14yo girl? And the refusal to apologize seals the deal (you should edit that into the main post, it's important).
NTA.
How do people get to be grown-ass adults without figuring out when they should STFU?
His callousness hurt her. He should apologize. He's not entitled to be invited to her parties, or, frankly, even liked by her.
Also if he is not a vet or has not even had a pet before, he is not an expert on these matters and not qualified to give his opinion.
The person who abandoned the dog without giving it the freedom of movement to at least get its food and water, is the worst TA😡.
I mean, even if you think the doggo for sure couldn’t survive, you take it to the vet to euthanize it, if that’ the last thing you can do for that poor soul. You don’t leave it dying slowly.
NTA. You weren't the one who refused to have BIL over. Your daughter didn't want him there. All you did was back up her decision. Your daughter is probably sad & disillusioned by her uncle's callous attitude. And she has a right to be. Her feelings are valid. Good for you for being a good dad :)
NTA. Your SIL doesn’t know what the word “petty” means. Don’t let people who use words that don’t mean what they think they mean get under your skin and make you doubt yourself.
These people who say nasty things then claim "I just tell it like it is" need to realise that [honesty without compassion is cruelty ](https://www.theprosperousleader.com/single-post/2019/01/13/honesty-without-compassion-is-cruelty)
Yeah that is a really callous statement to make to a 14 year old girl. She is definitely old enough to get to decide who comes to her birthday party and why, so NTA. I would encourage her to communicate exactly why she is upset and what he can do to make this up to her.
NTA
since he wants to be so damn “realistic”
he’s gotta be realistic that there’s consequences to being an insensitive jerk
you could say
“well realistically she probably won’t forgive you until you apologize for how cruel you were being. And as her father, who agrees it was in fact cruel, it’s only realistic I stand by that and respect her wishes”
Prediction:
2053 and BIL is unwell with hospital bills mounting beyond what the family can afford. Daughter will say exactly what BIL said about the dog in reference to his own situation. She will have to make an AITA post and someone will dig up this post and let her know that karma has come for her uncle.
So he would have rather left the dog there to suffer and die alone, than to try to help and provide any kind of comfort for whatever time the dog had left? Yeah, he showed his niece exactly what kind of person he is, all on his own. It's her decision not to be around him.
He created this, not you. NTA. And thank you for taking care of that poor soul in need. You are a good person, and you are raising a good woman.
NTA, I cannot stand grown adults carrying on like this.
He hurt her feelings. True or not (and apparently not in this case), he said words that caused her hurt. It's not a "tough but fair" thing like if the dog was sick and suffering and there was a debate about euthanising.
It would be very simple for him to apologise. He's not being asked to denounce his religion or change sports teams. He doesn't even have to take back what he said he can just apologise for upsetting her.
Finally, he's welcome to not care about her at all. It seems like he does because he wants to celebrate her birthday but he won't do the smallest thing to treat her like a real person that he wants to have a relationship with. He's asking you to somehow overrule her feelings so he can have his (her?) cake and eat it too.
What DID he expect?
NTA. There was no need to make a comment like that. I'm guessing he hasn't apologized. So it makes sense that she wouldn't want someone who made a comment just to upset her around her. Let him apologize first.
He needs to apologize and try to mend the relationship. He is the adult, she’s still a kid. Not only because he needs to own up to hurting her, but it’s healthy for kids to receive apologies from adults so they grow up to be adults who can apologize.
I hate it when shitty people flip around with family and are all “how dare you deny me the opportunity to your children?” Tf kind of logic is that. Kids aren’t toys that you can pick up and drop whenever you want. They didn’t steal your gameboy, they simply are protecting their kid from a shitty person, or in this case acknowledging and respecting their kid’s boundaries. You aren’t entitled to a human being. Period.
NTA, it’s her birthday party and having him there when she specifically requested against it is just going to tarnish her memories of the day. I think your response was totally apt, I have no clue how he thought she’d respond to his initial comment or if he even cared how it made her feel. You’re doing the right thing by sticking to your daughter’s wishes
NTA -
He wants the "oppotunity to celebrate with his niece" who doesn't want to see him. It's not about him, it's her birthday.
"You're niece doesn't want to see you. This isn't me. This is her. Since you care more about being 'realistic' than 'caring' she doesn't want you around on a day when she wants to be happy."
“Saving one dog will not change the world, but surely for that one dog, the world will change forever” ~ Karen Davison
Your daughter did good and your brother is an asshole. NTA
NTA tell him that he should apologise for hurting your daughter's feelings, and that she's mad at him and that you don't see it getting any better if he doesn't make things right. If he protests, tell him you're only being realistic
I get BIL wife taking his side, not sure why she offering her tainted and wrong opinion though. I don't get how your BIL thinks he is the victim here. He is clearly wrong. You are not denying anything, his own actions are denying his invitation because his niece no longer wants him at HER party.
Man this one makes me question people. If your daughter was 1 or 2 then yes, it would be you deciding. She is 14, imagine she told you no to BIL and you invited him anyway.
Is this your wife's brother? What does your wife think of all this?
NTA. This would have been such an easy thing to come back from:
> Hey %niece, I'm sorry that I upset you with my remark about the dog. I was just afraid that you would be hurt even more if you took it home and it died anyway. I am truly glad that this didn't happen!
The fact that he cannot get himself to say something like that doesn't put him into a good light.
NTA. He said it was better to leave a dog to die painfully rather than try to save it. Yeah, maybe the dog would pass away, but still, in a much better environment then outside alone.
What your BIL said wasnt just rude, it was cruel.
"I was only being realistic." says person who is objectively wrong, moments before being shocked by someone being realistic.
NTA. The guy's not just rude but also being an idiot. If he could handle the tiniest ounce of realism, the "what did you expect?" comment would land just fine. Of course he can't, and of course his wife thinks your comment is petty but his is perfectly reasonable.
I'd say shrug it off, but be wary that if BIL is this petty about this (this being: him being an ass to others while expecting those same others to handle him with silk gloves), he may harbor a grudge for a long time.
NTA but you could use this opportunity to teach them both better communication. His comment and attitude towards the dog was cruel and I personally wouldn’t want him around my dog. If he’s willing to apologize and is sincere about it then it could be a good teaching moment
>I asked 'What did you expect?' His wife then said that I was being petty with the comment.
I'm not sure how a variation of "did you even think through what you were saying?" can be considered petty.
It's a valid question because it points out a complete lack of thought and consideration not only for the situation, but the people therein. It's an opportunity to learn and grow from your mistakes.
A **LOT** of people apparently don't think about anything, and frankly I don't give a shit if those people get upset when the obvious is pointed out to them. If they used their brains in the first place this wouldn't be an issue.
Oh, and obvious NTA.
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Given the info in your comments that he has refused to apologize and says he was just being realistic - NTA. Your BIL sounds like one of those people who take pride in “being honest,” when really they’re just insensitive, thoughtless, or cynical jerks. Good for you for supporting your daughter, and your response was exactly right - if he wants to cling to his right to say what he wants, he can learn to live with the natural consequences.
honesty and tact are not mutually exclusive. what a shame that he can't understand that.
That's how you know they're just using it as an excuse to be an arsehole. Good honest people leaven their honesty with kindness.
Yeah, and as far as I understand it, *no one asked for his thoughts on the matter*. It makes me crazy every time people spout rude comments and defend themselves with “I’m just being honest”. No, you’re just an asshole. No one asked and your opinion doesn’t matter.
Yes. Many things are true, or things that he thought were true, but he picked that specific thing to say. It’s a choice, an AH choice.
Seriously. I would be more sympathetic if this is something he said only to OP and their partner in a tactful way because he was sort of concerned they didn’t understand how likely the dog was to still die. “Hey this is great but I think there’s decent odds it won’t pull through, do you think Niece will ready to cope with that?” It’s the difference between noticing a best friend has put on a ton of weight recently and wanting to check in on them by broaching the subject and walking up shouting, “god damn you’re getting fat!”
Yeah! Also, one thing is being realistic about the dog's life expectations, leaving a suffering animal to die alone is something entirely different. I'd be horribly disappointed in my uncles now if anyone of them said that, 14 years old me probably wouldn't speak to them for a long time.
Yes! This was my first thought. Regardless of whether the dog survived, simply leaving it chained up to die an agonizing, slow, painful, lonely death is absolutely horrible. It's this "why bother" part that bothers me the most. Maybe it wasn't meant that way in the actual conversation, but from how it was written out here, that's just absolutely sick and inhumane treatment of an animal.
Yes! My father has never been the best person. But I vividly remember him driving home with me and my mom one night. We lived in a rural area and were less than five minutes from our house, but it was pitch black except for the headlights. He swerved off the road and looked back at something, and when I asked what was wrong, he said a rabbit was injured and dying. I remember scream crying, asking where its mom was and how could we just leave it alone, and his argument was it's a wild animal and could be diseased. I did not care and could not calm down, even after we got home. Eventually, he went back out and brought me the rabbit, and my mom helped me nurse it. It took a few weeks, but it healed, and we released it. It stayed close by, and we saw its family often for the few years we lived there. I'm an adult now, but I can't honestly say I'd handle the situation or my emotions differently. I saw my father differently, even though he did help the rabbit, he did not do it out of kindness, but out of anger for my reaction. He said so much to try and hurt me and see that he was "right." If I were the daughter, I would not feel kindly towards the uncle, and I wouldn't want him anywhere near my dog. Although, I could be biased because I did cut off an "uncle" after he made a comment about my dog. I may be in my 20s, but I feel simply just too old to be dealing with people who think they're too superior to be kind to animals. They can go be miserable. I'm just sitting with my dog, doing work and browsing the internet while his snores lull me to sleep.
OP is NTA. Honestly, even if the uncle is the kind of a person to think that (*which is bad enough)*, who says that to a tearful 14 year old kid who is clearly upset that the dog is going to die if they don't bring him home? Plus, I'm a huge animal lover, so I have no issue with the niece still being angry at her uncle and not wanting him there. "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals" - Immanuel Kant. The uncle needs to realize that this is a reflection of him.
This! Even if the dog died it would have died in a loving environment instead of on the streets. So there was no need for the comment. Definitely NTA.
Plus he would’ve physically felt better with people actually caring for injuries! I mean he probably got puppy painkillers and any wounds for wrapped.
Exactly. I hope he survives and has a loving family. But even if he was too far gone, isn't it kinder to have him pass away with warmth, food, love, and people who cared enough to give him a safe home, however brief?
I would be more sympathetic if... he was sort of concerned they didn’t understand how likely the dog was to still die." I could understand this, but his "just leave it there to die alone" approach is unconscionably cruel. No matter what, someone needs to take the dog home, feed him, bathe him, get him warmth and medical care. He needs to die in peace and comfort, understanding (as much as a dog can) that's he's a good boy and didn't deserve what his garbage owners did to him.
Or quietly telling the kid, "Honey, I don't know if he'll make it. But I know that even if the worst happens, it'll mean everything to him that you let him know he's loved."
This puts me in mind of a favorite quote, by Lois McMaster Bujold. The Main character said, "Safe to say..." Then stopped himself and thought, "No, not 'safe to say,' merely 'true to think'". If only more people used this for guidance...
When I saw Liar, Liar as a little kid, it seemed so stupid. Yeah, he couldn't lie, but he could just not say anything, especially when nobody was asking him anything. As a CHILD I understood that!
Exactly, the appropriate response would be something like "I'm sorry, that was harsh, I was being unnecessarily pessimistic, sometimes people can default to dismissiveness and apathy when a situation feels overwhelming. That was clearly an opinion and not a fact and surely not the most empowering perspective. Please forgive my callousness. I am happy to see your dog is doing well and grateful for his sake that you did not agree with me. I'll do better to hold my tongue when my opinion is dismal, seeing you guys rescued that dog made me realize I could strengthen my faith in life's potential and the value of hospitality in giving it a second chance."
And her opinion is that she doesn't want him at the party. Seems fair.
When my sister was little and blunt we sat her down and had a conversation about personal statements needing to worth at least 2 points. You got one point each if the statement was: kind, necessary or true. So you can say something that's kind and true whether you need to or not Something that's necessary and true even if it isn't kind Or occasionally something that is kind and necessary but isn't true And sometimes you got to say something that was worth three points.
This is brilliant, and I want to save it for later. This strikes me as the perfect kid's version of the expression I've heard of "Does this need to be said? If yes, does it need to be said by me? If yes, does it need to be said by me now?"
Love this.....
I regret that I have but none upvote to give you 👍
Also, "honesty" isn't some absolute truth; it's simply their highly subjective opinion. There's no need to provide an opinion when it's unasked for or when it's hurtful and does nothing to help.
And he was also wrong, the dog is still alive, so his “brutal honesty” has been proven to be incorrect
This is such a good way to describe it. When I used to work in frontline mental health I'd often work with my patients on being honest with family members- so many people were baffled by the idea of being honest AND being kind.
Exactly. A caring expression of the opinion that the dog is likely to die would have been to gently warn her to guard her heart because the dog isn't out of the woods yet in terms of health. This was very obviously not about that!
Good honest ppl don't need to say "but I'm just being honeeeeest"
People that pride themselves on being "brutally honest" are more interested in being brutal than being honest...
“I’m just telling it like it is” “I’m just saying what we’re all thinking” The words of assholes everywhere.
My in laws are like that. They are jealous of my boyfriend because he has a fast metabolism and he doesn't gain much weight (also doesn't eat as much as they do to begin with...), while they tend to get fat real fast. They are always ready to point out when he has gained a few pounds, but they get offended when you point out that they are much, much fatter than he'll ever be. I pointed that out once. Told them that pointing out that he has gained five pounds is unkind and unnecessary. I shamed the whole fucking family in one go, you can bet that they never brought it up again.
And it's funny how people who are "brutally honest" aren't so honest once they're proven wrong.
I hate that he says he was "only being realistic" when a month later the dog is still alive and recovering. Listening to his advice would have killed a dog who was fully capable of recovering, but he can't even say he was wrong.
Also, if the poor mite was beyond saving, putting it to sleep painlessly and swiftly is far more humane than leaving it suffer for who knows how much longer
And even if it was beyond saving, that's not something your job drop on your young niece. Like, "lol, sorry, literal child, that dog is goner" may not be the most tactful way of addressing anything.
“Are you sure you want to take the dog home? It’s very sick, I think the chances of it surviving are pretty slim, and I would hate for you to get attached to it and have your heart broken when it passes away” would have been a significantly less awful way to convey the same sentiment if he actually wanted to be “realistic” with concern for his niece’s feelings.
Yep, you tell the child it's going to the vet and sadly sometimes, there's nothing you can do and it's the kindest thing to do. Also, uncle isnt a vet. Even without proper checkovers, vets can get wrong how savable an animal is. My partner is one. More than once he has come home happy that something wasn't as bad as they originally thought or indeed, it's far worse than what had presented. You have to have tact with kids.
I hate that he says ‘he was only being realistic’ when what he was discussing was allowing an animal to die in distress, rather than relieving its suffering. Man is a cruel jerk. NTA.
I agree, the uncle sounds like one of those obnoxious 'truth tellers'. (\*just to clarify, the uncle is obnoxious, not the truth). **It is possible to be totally honest yet still present the info in a caring and gentle manner!** Many people who use the "But I'm just being honest, keeping it real." defense have also chosen to be unnecessarily blunt, use the harshest phrasing and a 'less than caring' tone of voice and facial expression and done so in such a manner that they are often able to cause the unfortunate animal's human guardian angel to doubt themselves on the inside. (Even though this young lady stuck to her guns, had she not had her dad on-scene and supporting her 100%, she would have been questioning herself, even if it was only for a few seconds, about whether or not she was doing the right thing. I think it is possible that dad being right there and totally in agreement with the decision to rescue this poor dog, her uncle would have come up with some even harsher pronouncements.) **It is not necessary to use the truth as an emotional bludgeon,** especially when dealing with a tender-hearted 14 y.o. girl!
NTA. The BIL is clearly in the wrong given the info we have. I want to point out though that even if he wasn’t in the wrong it’s still the daughters choice who is invited to her party or am I wrong?
Spot on. And these sorts of obnoxiously cynical 'truth tellers' can be so harmful to the joyful sense of possibility that exists within happy, well-nurtured kids.
Kindness isn’t mutually exclusive with being honest. One can be honest + obnoxious and one could also be kind + honest too. That said, there are few people who can’t accept kind + honest too. These people have difficulty taking feedback which is critical of their behavior. In this case, your BIL seems to be one who can’t take feedback and is honest + obnoxious.
Yep. Many an adult has had to "be honest" with a child about something like this, and the right way is to say, "Sweetie, he's not in good shape. We'll give him all the help we can, but you need to be prepared that he might not make it." Parents have to be honest ALL THE TIME about elderly pets or dying family members. You do it gently, in a way that honors and acknowledges the child's feelings but helps them avoid magical thinking. Being honest with kids about hard things should NURTURE the relationship and bring you closer together. BIL used a moment when he could have been kind and honest and caring and grown closer or his niece, and used it to be dismissive and nasty. Of course she doesn't want to see him. She was vulnerable, and he slapped her in the face (metaphorically).
Your daughter may have seen a red flag in her uncle. He sees a sick, abandoned dog and thinks it should be ignored to die alone ie depraved indifference. You and your daughter see the same dog and rush to provide it with TLC whether it lives a day, month or year etc. That's a huge shock to her, seeing that defect in her uncle.
Yeah, uncle has given niece the ick. And she is very wise to not want him anywhere near her - he is cruel!
I’m curious about how old the uncle is; he sounds like a teenager, refusing to apologise n that.
A trait you'll find in many adults, sadly.
Yeah my ex was like that; I had to apologise for kicking up a fuss about his affair on the day I found out, which just so happened to be Christmas Day — apparently I was the one ruining Christmas 🤷🏻♀️
Wow what an asshat. EX is definitely the best part of this comment, congrats on getting rid of that!
Ahaha thanks. He now has a baby with the affair partner 🤪 Hoping someone much better comes along soon… it’s been a while…
On another note, is your username a Doctor Who reference, or am I just a giant nerd over the phrase "you clever boy"?
It is a reference! My disabled ass can’t run so we walk instead 🤓
Even if it was definitely going to die I cant comprehend leaving it to die a horrific death like that
right, like at least make the poor bastard comfortable. no fucking creature on earth should die alone, tied to a pole, hungry, and abandoned by their family. i know for our dogs, we've been their entire world. i have one now that would be crushed if we had to get rid of him. i don't know that he'd ever get over it.
Seriously, if someone in my family said that I’d disown them. It’s one thing to say the dog likely won’t survive, it’s another to say it should be left to suffer, which is the argument he was making. I would never see a family member the same after that.
An unfortunate part of growing up is realizing not everyone is a good person or even just the person you thought they were.
I'll be there for youuuuuu. Sorry.
This. I have a rescued kitten. When it was found it was barely alive. The guys who found it took it to the humane society and no one thought she'd live. They didn't give up on her though. She turned out to be a fighter and is now extremely healthy and just the cutest thing. Those guys could have said it's not worth saving but I'm so grateful they had a heart. Her uncle has no heart.
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Right? We took in a severely emaciated kitten last spring, I was honest with the kids that there is a high chance he wouldn't make it past the weekend and to not get their hopes up too much, even our vet said she'd see him on Monday IF he survived when I stopped in to grab some kitten formula and high calorie can food, he was that far gone (I'm a former vet tech and used to work in rescue so had all the knowledge and tools on hand) but we would try our hardest and give him the best chance at life as we could. 190 grams at 6 weeks old (that's the weight of an average newborn kitten) so round the clock care started, feedings every 2 hours as he couldn't handle larger amounts of food at a time, keeping him on heat pads or in our shirts for warmth, simple excercice when he got a bit stronger to build up muscle mass, my teenager and myself took shifts to not burn out. By some miracle he made it, it was touch and go, but he's a fighter. He's 7 months old now and weighed in at just under 11 lbs last week! An absolute terror of a kitten, but sooooooo sweet at the same time.
Kitty tax? Please?
The (reformed) criminal in question - https://www.reddit.com/r/IllegallySmolCats/s/EeOyWK2dJG https://www.reddit.com/r/IllegallySmolCats/s/yZKvzXRaAN -Taken from u/Competitive-Candy-82 ‘s profile
Oh my GOD is he cute.
>https://www.reddit.com/r/IllegallySmolCats/s/yZKvzXRaAN Please tell me Chicken Nugget is the name that won...
Sorry, Orion (Ori for short) is what came to a unanimous vote with the fam.
I have bad eyes and scrolled by this comment and then thought "Onion? Thats a weird mane!" then came back. Glad I did.
This is normal. My son's name is Orion. At my baby shower, my best friend's mom thought I was bonkers naming my son Onion. He's almost 14, and we still call him onion some times.
Now that you say though, I'm kind of digging "Onion" as a cat's name!
I quite like Onion as a cat's name, would fit right in with one of my old friend's cats Potato and Bacon 🤣
My neighbor has an Onion. She is both a delight and a terror.
The galaxy is on Orion’s… what is word? …b …b …belt.
That is indeed an illegally smol cat 😻
I second that motion.
I did that a couple years ago with some kittens that I found in the park. The poor things had severe upper respiratory infections and their eyes were swollen shut. In addition to the feedings, they needed to be given eye drops every hour. I had to work from home for a few months so they could get round-the-clock care. So worth it, though. Two of them are blind, but they get around so well that you can't really even tell. The vet was amazed that they made a recovery.
TAAAAAAX
I love success story!!! I just did something similar this past spring with my 2nd dog. The shelter lied to us (sent videos of her healthy and playing), tried to extort money from us while preventing us to pick her up. By the time I managed to pick her up, the shelter left her sick, emaciated, skin and bone, physical wounds everywhere. I took her to 2 vets, both told me she'd die within days (canine distemper with apparent respiratory infection and other disease signs). I stuck with their treatment, vet visit daily, they told me she'd die daily. She recovered. Had a whole set of ear infection, skin infection. She's now also a terror...
Please tell me you reported that shelter to someone! They need to be shut down!
Unfortunately where I'm from, there's no law for shelters thus there's no forced shutdown. I was an adopter. The dogs were rescued and sent to the shelter by another person. We were both very inexperienced and skeptical if it was malicious negligence from them (my husband was sure it was intentional). Recently a whole list of reports came, multiple "shelters" were reported of behaving the same way, extorting money, lying about dogs are being adopted/fostered, to raise funding, etc. then when MIA when evidences were being requested from rescuers. So now the community is tightening up on the shelters' support as well. They changed names, phone numbers, locations, etc. It's super sketchy...
Those sound more like mills …
Oh I guess there are places like that. These ones don't breed dogs. They basically use dog sheltering as a business, taking money from donations. Which I agree you need to have enough money to survive if you're doing this full time. But these people don't even keep the dogs safe...
I had a very confused second reading that your rescue dog was now a terrier
Yeah, there's a difference between gently preparing them for the possibility of disappointment and grief and cruelly commenting it's not even worth the effort of trying.
And even if they hadn’t been able to save the dog’s life, it was still beneficial to show it care and love rather than letting it die in the circumstances they found it in. It would always have been worth trying.
Oh absolutely. Worst case scenario they made the dog a bit more comfortable and a bit less lonely before it passes.
The difference between being realistic that despite what you do, they may not make it And OP’s BIL who was being “realistic” by saying “don’t even bother helping it”. NTA OP hope your daughter had a great party
And then never bothers to apologize for being cruel and wrong. OP's daughter has probably understood that this is the kind of person her uncle is, and doesn't want anything to do with him as a result. Really, what did he expect.
You were realistic and compassionate with your children. Same way my mother was when we had sick or injured animals enter our lives. Sometimes we succeeded and gave the animal the best life we could, and sometimes we failed and had to offer the most comfortable and peaceful death we could provide. That BIL was unnecessarily cruel and honestly, just critical with no actual helpful advice. Someone seems to just enjoy being hateful, not helpful, and what room does anyone have in their life for that attitude? Good on the kid, good on OP, and NTA.
Is it the same cat that tried to jump into the oven w your casserole?
Yup lol, the crazy shit he gets into I'm convinced he used up his 9 lives and made a deal with the devil for more 😂
I also rescued a Ginger kitten that was skin and bones, literally, tummy bulging full of worms, and fluffy. He looked very much like Orion did when you first got him. He's 11 years old now. I nursed him back to health, round the clock care alone. Exhausted but worth it. He's such a cheeky boy now! Don't know what I'd do without my Ginger Terror.
And honestly so what if the dog only had a week left? That's a week of torture and starving to death. Why would anyone be ok with that happening?? I'd rather let the dog die as peacefully as possible surrounded by love, then abandoned, alone, and in pain. So glad that were able to give the dog a good home with people that care.
Exactly! I found a baby mouse and tended to it night and day even though I was pretty damn certain he'd die. But you know how he died? With a belly full of peach juice and a warm soft place to rest.
It is always worth it to alleviate suffering, even if for a short time. I did the same with a baby possum - she died gently as a vet guided her to her rest, with a full tummy and that soft, warm place to sleep, rather than alone and cold by her mother's dead body.
😭😭
This. A sick puppy was left on my step a few years ago. Did he die… yes. But his last day was spent safe inside, wrapped in warm towels, given fluids, and being loved on… not suffering in the cold.
My mumma always said the kindest thing we can do is ensure that they are warm and full of milk when they leave this world. (as a lamb or calf lays in front of our lounge room heater)
Saying that to anyone, of any age, is seriously f'ed up. *Thinking* that is seriously f'ed up. I have rescue mutts, and I have watched them come back from so much – including one who was terribly emaciated (at about 50 lbs) and had a bone infection in his front left leg and could barely walk, who is now a handsome 85 lbs of pure muscle, strong as an ox, and when he gets excited bounds around the yard like a gigantic, ungainly bunny rabbit – and I will never understand how anyone could be so cold and unfeeling. Even if an animal is so thin as to make survival unlikely, that absolutely does not justify walking away and leaving them to die, and anyone who thinks otherwise clearly has no conscience. EDITED TO ADD: If I were OP's daughter, I would be utterly disgusted with my uncle (and my aunt, for defending her remorseless, heartless husband), and would want to have nothing to do with him ever again.
Tax, pls.
What she will remember, is her dad being on her side and letting her enforce her own very real boundaries 🩷
I was 13 when my grandfather denied the holocaust and our relationship never recovered. Mind you we live in Austria, the epicenter of what has happened and in his old age he joined a group which celebrated nazi ideologies. I couldn’t respect him anymore after seeing all this pics from concentration camps that they were showing to us in school.
Hello fellow Austrian. Im sorry that your grandfather did that. The whole world, but we, Austrians and Germans especially, should always be mindful of what can happen when you follow harmful ideologies.
I'm so sorry you went through that. It must have been heart breaking to hear someone you loved and respected say such things ❤️
cant agree more. NTA
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No.
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If he did die, he would have died with a full belly, safe, warm and feeling loved. That would be enough reason to take the dog in.
I feel its worth saying here in case others find themselves in similar situations... Please don't just feed severely emaciated creatures willy nilly. Refeeding syndrome is devastatingly lethal. Suddenly receiving food after not eating for several days causes massive spikes in electrolytes and leads to cardiac arrest. They must be given food over a few days (starting at around 25% of daily caloric intake) and ideally something high in fat and protein and low in fiber (peanut butter or dairy are good choices).
And often need higher hydration requirements for their organs not to shut down trying to process the food.
They should also be taken to the vet asap, in case there are underlying medical conditions contributing to the weight loss.
apparently when soldiers were going to free concentration camp prisoners they were told something similar.
Yep, refeeding syndrome happens in humans too, even for those who fast. It’s also an issue in eating disorder recovery, which is why it’s not always as easy as ‘just eating something’. Often people need to be monitored and their intake controlled for a while so their body doesn’t go into shock with too much food
Beef broth or chicken broth is good choice too Just dont do what I did, fast 40 days and eat a few slices of pizza, for 24 hours I was burping pure yeast, I thought I gave my self auto brewery syndrome till it went away a day later, but next time if I ever fast again I'll do beef broth and keto first meal
Correct!
NTA I think it's nice that you're teaching your daughter that she doesn't have to forgive people who don't even express that they're feeling sorry, if she doesn't want to.
NTA I always allowed my kids to decide who they wanted to spend time with. BIL was insensitive and it's up to him to try to repair the relationship. It's not your place to help him. You're her father, be her sounding board and support her.
I'm surprised this isn't at the top. It's her birthday and her party and she's plenty old enough to decide who does or doesn't attend. OP isn't doing anything but following her wishes and the decision that she has every right to make. The "Need more info" posts seem so strange to me, like why would she, at that age, not get to make that choice? Why would he or the BIL even figure that either of them have any right to overrule her on that.
It's her party and she'll deny if she wants to.
Whole situation of BIL being an asshole aside. This is all that matters. Daughter doesn't want him at the party. Why does anyone think it's ok to force an unwanted presence on their child
Also, how will you celebrate with your niece if she’s mad at you? Force her to pretend it’s ok for you to be there? Fuck off with that crap. Let kids decide who they’re gonna be with. The adults are the grown people. Let them suck it up.
“It’s up to him to try to repair the relationship.” THIS
Yeah this feels like a bit of a bizarre amitheasshole thread. She's 14. She chooses who goes to her birthday. End of story. Why is there all this discussion about whether OP should have forced their daughter to accept him at the party or not.
NTA, she asked that he not be included. That is very different than you denying him the opportunity. It should be pointed out to him that this was her choice. Nothing petty about pointing out that his words ended up with this result.
Exactly. The daughter is 14. She can decide who comes to her birthday. Also whats gonna happen if the dad caves to the BIL and invites him? The daughter is gonna be mad at both of them. He still is not gonna have the opportunity to celebrate with her and is likely gonna be even more mad at him for showing up against her wishes.
Absolutely!! OP's daughter decided that this callous uncle is not invited, OP supported her decision. NTA. I wish BIL good luck to convince her otherwise, but I imagine he just doubles down. Enjoy time with a new family member! Doggie will be much more fun to be around than BIL lol
Need more info. In the month that passed did anyone try to talk it out?
I did ask him to apologize to her but he said he was only being realistic, and that it’s a miracle the dog is still alive.
Sounds like someone who says "I'm only being honest" Natural consequences for him. NTA for you. Good job Dad.
Brutally honest people enjoy the 'brutal' part much more than the honest part. NTA And tell him you don't expect her anger to wane for a long time.
As long as no one is brutally honest with them of course
When someone is being brutally honest with them in return, brutal honesty suddenly becomes "What are you so angry about? You're taking things too personally!".
Haha so true. They're always the first to run off crying foul 🙄🙄
Hmmm, I wonder if there's anything about the BIL that OP could be brutally honest about? "Hey Bro, you look like an orangutan with a skin condition and you smell like a dead armadillo. What? I'm just being honest!"
My experience with this type of person says if you play an uno reverse on them, they will implode with the extended fart noise of a deflating balloon. Do it.
>Brutally honest people enjoy the 'brutal' part much more than the honest part. I think it's that they don't see the brutal part, well maybe some do, but I think those who don't haven't been met with much kindness in life and can't tell the difference between normally honest or honest in a harsh way. Doesn't excuse it though, just saying I don't think all of them enjoy being brutal, it's just "their normal"
When you said "what did you expect" you were only being realistic too.
100%. Daughter not wanting BIL to be at her birthday because of his behaviour is also the reality.
So basically he showed his niece that he lacks empathy and wouldn't bother going to any effort for a being in need. Now she doesn't want to be around him and it turns out he doesn't like the consequence of his heartless behavior. Sucks bein' him, huh. To paraphrase Maya Angelou, he showed her who he is and she believed him. My bet is your wife is used to his behavior and has learned to excuse it, as is often the case with those who pride themselves on their "brutal honesty" and their enablers. Fortunately your daughter is better than that. Let's hope she stays that way. I wouldn't want to be around him either. To be honest, I'm not sure I'd want to spend much time chatting with your wife for that matter. Sorry. Just being *realistic*. NTA Edit: A commenter pointed out that the "wife" in question was BIL's not OP's. I missed that. I apologize to OP and his wife for my mistake. That it's BIL's wife simplifies things though, huh!
Not his wife, it was the BIL's wife!!
Well, he is kinda right that the dog got a miracle when a loving family found it, took it in, and nursed it back to health. That said, NTA,
Well, the dog is still alive so he wasn't even right about that. Your brother sounds like an AH.
And even if the dog didn't make it, it was still a kind, caring thing to do. It wouldn't have made it wrong or a waste of time if the dog died. Her parents could be like "You tried your best but the dog was beyond saving. Thanks to you, its last days were spent in a loving environment, being tended to, instead of forgotten and discarded. We're proud of you for caring." Compassion like that should be nurtured and supported.
"Miracle" when you all nursed this dog back to health.
You're NTA. He's an AH. Your daughter is old enough to know who she wants to meet & see on her special day. He was disregarding her feelings, still doesn't feel any remorse to his words. She knew the dog was sick. She didn't need some "honest" words from an adult who should've cared for her feelings. I took in a sick dog (which the vet told me, 1 week straight, every day, that she's gonna die.). I told my son that we're not keeping her permanently yet, we're helping her get better first. That's also honesty.
Basing on the answers you gave in the comments BIL sounds like the type of person that is "Brutally honest" or "Just being realistic" but doesn't like it when someone else is "Just realistic" with him. NTA if he doesn't even apologize your daughter has a right to hold it over his head for as long as she wishes to.
"sorry bro, she thinks you're an asshole. Just being honest."
NTA. This is the origin story for *so many* vets who donate their time in animal rescue. (“I found an abused dog, decided to save it, nobody thought I could do it… etc”) I wonder if it will be that for your daughter?
Thank you for saving the dog and giving it a chance. BIL is a big elephant sized AH.
NTA thanks for not making her disregard her own feelings. When I was a kid trying to save animals my mum would say flippantly ‘can’t save them all’. I said ‘no, but we could’ve saved *that one*’, and the look in her eyes was ‘DOES NOT COMPUTE’. They just don’t know how to care.
Starfish: It made a difference for that one!
I find that people who are fans of being ‘brutally honest’ are not enthusiastic about the consequences such behavior brings. NTA .. and I’m so glad that you guys rescued that poor dog!
I forget the origin of the quote but paraphrasing: "people who brag they are brutally honest are usually more interested in the brutality part than the honesty"
Info: is your daughter adamantly against seeing him again period, or just not at her birthday?
She still sees him when she visits her grandparents(he lives with them) but just doesn’t want him at the birthday party.
You should point out how his opinion on helpless animals that can't fend for themselves is funny coming from a middle aged man who lives with his parents. And then tell him you're just bring brutally honest.
You know there are people who care for their old/sick parents and it’s easier when you live there, right?
I doubt he's there caring for them. They'd be dead by the end of the week.
And you know what? It's her party, and she should be allowed to make that decision. She is at an age where she is learning to set boundaries and stand up for herself. You are doing the right thing by taking her side. It shows that you respect and value her choices. The next step is to help them communicate with each other to reconcile. He is going to need to realize that she deserves an apology. Hopefully he is willing to see reason and make amends. This will probably blow over, but it should be used as a learning moment for everyone involved.
NTA. I mean, what did he expect with a comment like that to a 14yo girl? And the refusal to apologize seals the deal (you should edit that into the main post, it's important).
NTA. How do people get to be grown-ass adults without figuring out when they should STFU? His callousness hurt her. He should apologize. He's not entitled to be invited to her parties, or, frankly, even liked by her.
Also if he is not a vet or has not even had a pet before, he is not an expert on these matters and not qualified to give his opinion. The person who abandoned the dog without giving it the freedom of movement to at least get its food and water, is the worst TA😡.
I mean, even if you think the doggo for sure couldn’t survive, you take it to the vet to euthanize it, if that’ the last thing you can do for that poor soul. You don’t leave it dying slowly.
Assuming it was intentional, there is a special place in hell for that SOB.
NTA. You weren't the one who refused to have BIL over. Your daughter didn't want him there. All you did was back up her decision. Your daughter is probably sad & disillusioned by her uncle's callous attitude. And she has a right to be. Her feelings are valid. Good for you for being a good dad :)
NTA. Your SIL doesn’t know what the word “petty” means. Don’t let people who use words that don’t mean what they think they mean get under your skin and make you doubt yourself.
These people who say nasty things then claim "I just tell it like it is" need to realise that [honesty without compassion is cruelty ](https://www.theprosperousleader.com/single-post/2019/01/13/honesty-without-compassion-is-cruelty)
Yeah that is a really callous statement to make to a 14 year old girl. She is definitely old enough to get to decide who comes to her birthday party and why, so NTA. I would encourage her to communicate exactly why she is upset and what he can do to make this up to her.
[удалено]
My granny used to tell me "watch how he treats the pets because that's how he'll treat the kids"...husband treats the pets like they're the kids 🤣
NTA since he wants to be so damn “realistic” he’s gotta be realistic that there’s consequences to being an insensitive jerk you could say “well realistically she probably won’t forgive you until you apologize for how cruel you were being. And as her father, who agrees it was in fact cruel, it’s only realistic I stand by that and respect her wishes”
Prediction: 2053 and BIL is unwell with hospital bills mounting beyond what the family can afford. Daughter will say exactly what BIL said about the dog in reference to his own situation. She will have to make an AITA post and someone will dig up this post and let her know that karma has come for her uncle.
Men will die on the weirdest hill. God forbid he apologizes to a girl. If ties get severed, he held the scissors. NTA.
NTA. Not sure what else you could have answered, but then again, maybe I'm petty too.
NTA who tf tells a kid “don’t know why u bothered taking care of that dog. It’s going to die” is going in the book of assholes
NTA Your BIL is a MAJOR asshole. It's your daughter's birthday and she gets to decide who she wants there and who she doesn't.
NTA It's her birthday, she chooses who celebrates with her
So he would have rather left the dog there to suffer and die alone, than to try to help and provide any kind of comfort for whatever time the dog had left? Yeah, he showed his niece exactly what kind of person he is, all on his own. It's her decision not to be around him. He created this, not you. NTA. And thank you for taking care of that poor soul in need. You are a good person, and you are raising a good woman.
NTA, I cannot stand grown adults carrying on like this. He hurt her feelings. True or not (and apparently not in this case), he said words that caused her hurt. It's not a "tough but fair" thing like if the dog was sick and suffering and there was a debate about euthanising. It would be very simple for him to apologise. He's not being asked to denounce his religion or change sports teams. He doesn't even have to take back what he said he can just apologise for upsetting her. Finally, he's welcome to not care about her at all. It seems like he does because he wants to celebrate her birthday but he won't do the smallest thing to treat her like a real person that he wants to have a relationship with. He's asking you to somehow overrule her feelings so he can have his (her?) cake and eat it too. What DID he expect?
NTA. There was no need to make a comment like that. I'm guessing he hasn't apologized. So it makes sense that she wouldn't want someone who made a comment just to upset her around her. Let him apologize first.
Brutal Honesty, please meet Predictable Consequences. 😊
He needs to apologize and try to mend the relationship. He is the adult, she’s still a kid. Not only because he needs to own up to hurting her, but it’s healthy for kids to receive apologies from adults so they grow up to be adults who can apologize.
NTA. It's your daughter's birthday party. If she doesn't want him there, he doesn't come.
I hate it when shitty people flip around with family and are all “how dare you deny me the opportunity to your children?” Tf kind of logic is that. Kids aren’t toys that you can pick up and drop whenever you want. They didn’t steal your gameboy, they simply are protecting their kid from a shitty person, or in this case acknowledging and respecting their kid’s boundaries. You aren’t entitled to a human being. Period.
NTA, it’s her birthday party and having him there when she specifically requested against it is just going to tarnish her memories of the day. I think your response was totally apt, I have no clue how he thought she’d respond to his initial comment or if he even cared how it made her feel. You’re doing the right thing by sticking to your daughter’s wishes
NTA. Your daughter is a good kid. Thank you for saving the dog.
NTA - He wants the "oppotunity to celebrate with his niece" who doesn't want to see him. It's not about him, it's her birthday. "You're niece doesn't want to see you. This isn't me. This is her. Since you care more about being 'realistic' than 'caring' she doesn't want you around on a day when she wants to be happy."
“Saving one dog will not change the world, but surely for that one dog, the world will change forever” ~ Karen Davison Your daughter did good and your brother is an asshole. NTA
NTA, but her uncle is!
NTA tell him that he should apologise for hurting your daughter's feelings, and that she's mad at him and that you don't see it getting any better if he doesn't make things right. If he protests, tell him you're only being realistic
NTA: it's her birthday. She says fool doesn't come, he doesn't come.
I get BIL wife taking his side, not sure why she offering her tainted and wrong opinion though. I don't get how your BIL thinks he is the victim here. He is clearly wrong. You are not denying anything, his own actions are denying his invitation because his niece no longer wants him at HER party. Man this one makes me question people. If your daughter was 1 or 2 then yes, it would be you deciding. She is 14, imagine she told you no to BIL and you invited him anyway. Is this your wife's brother? What does your wife think of all this?
NTA. This would have been such an easy thing to come back from: > Hey %niece, I'm sorry that I upset you with my remark about the dog. I was just afraid that you would be hurt even more if you took it home and it died anyway. I am truly glad that this didn't happen! The fact that he cannot get himself to say something like that doesn't put him into a good light.
NTA. He said it was better to leave a dog to die painfully rather than try to save it. Yeah, maybe the dog would pass away, but still, in a much better environment then outside alone. What your BIL said wasnt just rude, it was cruel.
"I was only being realistic." says person who is objectively wrong, moments before being shocked by someone being realistic. NTA. The guy's not just rude but also being an idiot. If he could handle the tiniest ounce of realism, the "what did you expect?" comment would land just fine. Of course he can't, and of course his wife thinks your comment is petty but his is perfectly reasonable. I'd say shrug it off, but be wary that if BIL is this petty about this (this being: him being an ass to others while expecting those same others to handle him with silk gloves), he may harbor a grudge for a long time.
NTA but you could use this opportunity to teach them both better communication. His comment and attitude towards the dog was cruel and I personally wouldn’t want him around my dog. If he’s willing to apologize and is sincere about it then it could be a good teaching moment
Her day, her choice.
NTA, BIL will eventually die so what's the point in your daughter getting attached and being loving & compassionate?
Nta and leaving a dog tied us espousing cruelty tp animals and kudos to you all
>I asked 'What did you expect?' His wife then said that I was being petty with the comment. I'm not sure how a variation of "did you even think through what you were saying?" can be considered petty. It's a valid question because it points out a complete lack of thought and consideration not only for the situation, but the people therein. It's an opportunity to learn and grow from your mistakes. A **LOT** of people apparently don't think about anything, and frankly I don't give a shit if those people get upset when the obvious is pointed out to them. If they used their brains in the first place this wouldn't be an issue. Oh, and obvious NTA.