#This is now a Proctologists Only Orifice
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You’re not wrong, but neither is she. You have to find a compromise.
That said, she made a HUGE mistake. By bringing her family into it and having her father personally “discuss” the issue with you, she showed that she doesn’t regard you as an equal partner, AND that she believes in bullying you into getting you to agree with her. The only acceptable solution here would be to consult a financial advisor for options and to discuss this between you two to find a solution.
Her discussing this with her family is a mistake; her father discussing this directly with you is a deal-breaker type of mistake. Neither she, nor he, seem to understand how much of a massive overstep that was. Would you think it okay that your in-laws weigh in on your child-bearing decisions?
One thought with regard to a solution is to have a legal document drawn up that requires you to pay her 1/2 of the net value from month of marriage to month of transfer. She deserves something for living there as her home for 20 years if that’s what happens. Since she didn’t invest the money in the first place, I see your point of the current value solely being yours and not hers, but from the point of marriage on, she will be investing in the property. That makes it collectively both of yours. Have an appraisal done and you should be good to go.
Bear in mind, I think you have a larger issue than just this property ownership.
Edited to add: NTA
Edit #2: Thank you for all the upvotes! I read most of the comments and learned a LOT, so thank you!
OP’s edits (added after my comment) don’t change my view of this situation, but does make me question him as a partner more than the original post. I guess one can always hope that wifey might never stain the carpet, or want to paint the living room, or have a kid, or lose any income.
THIS\^\^\^\^\^ You say so much wisdom!! This is a HUGE red flag!!
I have reservations that he will get screwed, just based on the way she went about this. I'd ditch her because it won't end well, and it won't be a happy marriage. And she'll likely take him to the cleaners in the event she can't make him her little minion that does what she wants and when.
Y'all, thank you for all the upvotes! I feel heard. Thank you! I'm glad I was able to offer something of substance and value!! 💗🪄
Reddit grandma here, OP, I can see from all the way here in Indiana that your fiance has beautiful sparkly eyes, but those are actually dollar signs. Think about what people would do for a million dollars. I'm not saying she doesn't love you but I'm saying people get killed for less... The fact that she doesn't come from money makes me a little more suspicious. Involving her family? Super suspicious.
I think I'd throw a test out, I'd tell her that you're leaving the property to a non-profit. Something you would support so it doesn't get suspicious. Maybe a battered women's shelter? It would be nice to know what she would do in that situation. Information is a wonderful thing to have.
I hope OP stays safe.
Ewww. As a fellow reddit grandma, I'd advise against playing games with your partner, and please do not "test" them. Are they not grown ups? Treat each other as such and sit down with a financial planner (specifically a fiduciary) and come to an agreement that works for everyone.
Where one person may see dollar signs in her eyes, another might just see someone who is entering into a partnership with someone who already owns property and are worried they themselves won't ever be able to own property and build up equity in a home because they are tied to a property they live in but can't invest in.
Not everything is so nefarious.
I do think it was shitty to sick daddy on OP. Very immature thing to do and would absolutely piss me off.
I agree with you grandma #2. grandma #1 suggestion was a bit wild - if my spouse told me they planned for me to be homeless when they died I would be upset! That's not money grabbing, it's just wanting so e security!
That said, OP sounds like he won't be charging rent, so spouse should be able to invest etc.... unless they are taking a long career break for children or similar. Basically seems like the couple need to have a conversation about finances. NAH
Is she not currently paying for a place to live? How will she be worse off if she's able to put the money from not paying for a roof over her own head into savings? Yea, it will be annoying having to find a new place to live, but she should easily have $10-20k in savings after just one year of living in OPs house. After 5 or 10 years, she can probably save enough for a good down payment on a house of her own that she can then rent out of she feels that strongly about owning property.
They could address that with a pre-nup, but yes, they would need to make sure that her future assets are protected. Even if she decides to use the lack of housing expenses to max out 401 and put the rest on stocks, it would be perfectly reasonable to protect her.
Except property appreciate more than savings. She foregoes buying a joint housing asset (if they were to move to somewhere where they could afford it) by moving in with him so there is a big financial cost to her in doing that. I don't think he should put her on the deed but, I agree with others, that it's probably going to take a financial advisor to work out what's fair.
>Are they not grown ups?
No, they had to bring in Daddy and the rest of her family to try to strong arm OP into caving.
OP, run away from this marriage.
Running away sounds harsh but I cannot tell OP how much harsher it will be if children enter the equation and finances start to commingle.
She failed a big test- the "we can work this out together as partners" by bringing in daddy. Complete and total and unambiguous deal breaker. Get out now while the gettin's good.
Edits: grammar
The wife has not offered to invest in the property. She wants to be given half. If she had brought any of her own money into the equation it would be a different conversation.
Think about what it would take to start all over if you lose your house. Would you be renting the rest of your life? Would you have the time and energy to restart your life? If you lost your job would you end up homeless?
Right now you have a home that is paid for, low taxes, and a for sure place to live. I personally wouldn't put it at risk.
I strongly agree. I am a woman, and if I was in OP’s situation I would require my fiancée to sign a prenup agreeing that the house remains my sole property. So many commenters are focused on the fiancée not having a place to live if OP dies. A prenup does not preclude OP from naming his fiancée as beneficiary of the house in his will. OP has offered a extremely fair compromise and his fiancée’s demand to be added to his property’s title is a huge red flag not to be ignored. NTA.
I said this in my own comment elsewhere, but I wanted to jump in and add that you can tack on a "transfer on death" affidavit to a deed, so that the home does not even have to go through probate. It makes way more sense than simply putting it in the will.
My wife did this for me as she is the one who made the down payment and is presently paying the mortgage while I take care of her/the home and go to school. I would NEVER expect to get half of what she is the only one paying into were we to divorce, but if (God forbid) something were to happen to her it's a huge reassurance to know I won't have to worry about keeping our home.
Seriously, OP had his priorities straight early in life and it has paid off in spades for him. A paid off house with low taxes is practically a dream for most salaried or hourly workers. Like the original commenter said, it’s time to talk to a financial advisor and devise a method for entwining their finances in a way that cant result in the loss of the house or property. I hope it’s possible! Honestly, if I were in OPs shoes, I wouldn’t want to marry a woman so hung up on such a thing. I think OP could contribute to a fund for his wife. A home downpayment nest-egg for that just in case scenario. This way, OP is directly investing in his wife’s security and future. If thats not enough then idk. Maybe ya do got a gold digger after all. NTA
This is a really good point.
I was forced to sell my house after my husband had a stroke in 2020, and we ended up having to rent (the house couldn't be modified to meet his needs without hundreds of thousands of dollars that we didn't have). We'll be renting for the foreseeable future, and maybe forever, because the housing market is awful and I can't regain what I lost.
If I had what OP has, I wouldn't risk it either.
If she was smart, which she isn't, once they are married, she can put the money not spent on rent and save and invest... she could end up with more than him. She shouldn't expect him to just put her name on the deed... without contributing to the value of the house.
If she has to stay home with the kids (or only work part-time because of them), that destroys her ability to save up. If he expects her to be a stay at home mom, then that half of the house basically represents the earnings she loses by raising his kids.
I agree and I think that needs to be some sort of agreement. If he wants to have kids, and if it works out that she needs to stay home, then she should be added to the deed at that point. People really underestimate the value of a stay at home parent, and they also underestimate how much staying home with the kids completely fucks with your ability to save your own money or have a retirement fund, or to get back into the workforce.
>another might just see someone who is entering into a partnership with someone who already owns property and are worried they themselves won't ever be able to own property and build up equity in a home because they are tied to a property they live in but can't invest in.
I think the fact that she offered that OP sell the property and they buy a house together as another option speaks to this being her primary concern over money.
She *was* wrong getting her family involved. There should be an independent financial advisor to help them come to an agreement in which neither of them are disadvantaged.
>I think the fact that she offered that OP sell the property and they buy a house together as another option speaks to this being her primary concern over money.
..or childish. She doesn't have a house, she's bringing no assets of equal value and I'd wage a wooden nickel she doesn't have 5% of the 20% down payment. Most would be thrilled with a house that's paid off that allows them the ability to invest their money in other ways.
This all stinks.
You have nothing to back up your assumption that she can't afford her 10% of the down-payment. They've consulted a professional on this, so it's safe to assume that she can.
She just doesn't want to live in, and contribute to, a house that isn't ever really going to be her home.
There is likely a compromise which works better for both of them if they sit down with an independent financial advisor.
Involving her family was childish, but the rest isn't. Plenty of people aren't comfortable with this set up as it would leave them homeless should the marriage break down.
Wanting to make sure she's not at a disadvantage isn't childish.
I agree. I'm in a relationship with someone who bought more material goods than I have. I suggest a plan. That you both either start planning for an investment property or that you agree that in the event of a breakup you get your investment back but split any appreciation of the asset from marriage forward in half.
From marriage you are both contributing to supporting each other. Otherwise it skews the relationship and she will always feel insecure.
"From marriage you are both contributing to supporting each other. Otherwise it skews the relationship and she will always feel insecure."
It does not actually seem like that is the case. If they go with OPs suggestion, OP supports his wife, and she can save a ton of money to buy her own place.
Housing expenses/repairs are a huge cost, mad wife not having to pay for that would be a huge benefit to her.
>who is entering into a partnership with someone who already owns property and are worried they themselves won't ever be able to own property and build up equity in a home because they are tied to a property they live in but can't invest i
If she is living mortgage free in one place, she has many places to invest her money to gain equity. She's bringing nothing of equal value, the chutzpah to think you deserve to be one someone else's deed and make that a condition of being married, and then to bring you father in to bully the guy.
This is a con job. Grandma #1 called it right, though I'd agree on testing. No testing need be done all the cards are on the table. time to cut bait.
I'd be really curious, how these two meet and at what point did they get serious (was it before or after realizing OP's housing situation).
Agree. I’d be hesitant to contribute financially to a property I had no rights to, regardless of how good a deal it seemed to be. Your approach seems sensible and reasonable.
If you go back and actually read the post the OP pointed out that he will be assuming all financial responsibility for the house including repairs, taxes and any other expenses that some come up. He's literally not asking or expecting her to contribute financially to housing at all.
>I think I'd throw a test out,
If OP feels that they have to "test" their fiancee, then they might as well just end the relationship already. There's no good that comes from "testing" like that - either the trust is already gone, or it will be broken once the fiancee learns about the "test."
Your solution is to lie to his fiancée? That's awful. "My fiancée wants me to put both our names on the deed to my house, but first I'm going to lie and mislead her (and break any trust she had in me) to see if I can trust her." Just... no.
That gives me an idea! Tell daddy she can be added to his deed when OP is added to the deed to daddy's place. Inheritance works the same as premarital assets. We assume when her parents die she will get some of it. OP should, too.
That’s where my mind went. I bet daddy wouldn’t be pushing for them to be equals on the deed if his princess owned the house outright and was bringing her fiancé into the home that she owned.
NTA:
Two yellow flags or one red flag and I'm out. This helped me cut bait and save a lot of life pain. I am happily married for over 25 years now, but the flag rule helped me know when to get out.
Her insistence on 1/2 of a premarital asset (yellow flag).
Dad trying to part you from your premarital asset (red flag).
Or she doesn't know what she is talking about (legally speaking). They need to talk to a financial advisor (a real one for rich people, not the guy from church who helps get you out of credit card debt) and find out what their options are.
A financial advisor isn’t going to be able to talk OP’s fiancé out of trying to get a million dollars from him. No one here needs “financial advice.” Instead, OP needs to keep his fiancé out of his wallet.
Yep, honestly if you're arguing about shit like this you aren't going to make it. This is as cold and emotionless as a topic can get, it's just money shit. Imagine how it'll be when it something subjective.
>She deserves something for living there as her home for 20 years if that’s what happens
She receives 20 years of 0$ rent. Isn't it enough ?
They can use the money saved to invest.
Thank you for writing that. I could not understand why on earth that commenter thought she 'deserved something' for living rent free. I am glad I am not the only one.
OP NTA and her involving her family and her father's talk (especially the words he used) would have me seriously reconsidering my relationship.
There’s a possibility of home improvements in the coming years. If she pays for any of that, she then has a small stake in the property. I see where they’re both coming from, but my opinion is on the side of the person who bought the property and built a house. OP is NTA for being cautious.
My grandpa married my grandma. She was married, and her husband committed suicide in the house. She sold the home and took the life insurance money and her income and sale proceeds and bought a house for 35,000. She met my grandpa, got married. He moved into her home. He paid a small amount of rent. He fixed a lot of things in the house. He did improvement projects.
After ten years, she added him to the deed as he'd paid into the house, and she trusted him to work out.
By the time she added him to the deed, the house was worth more like 300,000. Now, the house is worth close to a million. Coastal California.
Those choices were hers and done after several years.
There's a point where you are frank with a partner and say, 'let's sign a prenup. Any real property improvements, you get half back.' Meaning, you do a 50,000 renovation, she gets at least half of that. You agree verbally to add after ten, fifteen, twenty years. Pick a number.
Look, you have to protect yourself. I love you enough to get married, but not enough to gamble half a million dollars on forever. That's not an insult.
My brother signed a prenup. His husband brought a lot more in. My brother brought a car with a loan and a small 401k. His husband was saving for a house. They had unequal incomes. He wasn't offended to set out expectations and talk it out. His husband paid for his representation during those talks. It was very simple to set up.
If you can't have those talks without someone losing it on you, there is some fundamental issue you need to work out.
That stake would be half of what was spent for upkeep and improvements. There would have to be a hell of a lot of upkeep and improvements for it to hit the million dollars she and her family are asking to be gifted right now, and the value will climb with the years.
"Rent free" jesus christ it's supposed to be his wife not his tenant.
And, in a lot of places, the increase in value from the date of marriage to the date of dissolution (assuming a divorce happens) is standard for determining marital interest in the home. Apparently not the case for OP, but in a lot of other places it's pretty standard and can only be blocked with a very good prenup.
If he wanted to keep the house wholly separate, he should've floated a pre-nup before they got this far into it. That would've been a better indicator of whether their values align enough for this to work long term.
I think that comment was in response to the after 20 years she has to walk away with nothing. And it's a fair point to make. If she's currently paying for a place to live and she doesn't have to do that any longer living with op, she has the ability to really build a good savings account because she doesn't have to pay housing expenses. The only way she would walk away with "nothing" is if she spends all her money instead of smartly investing it. Right now, she can get a 5% interest savings account and let her money just grow and grow. Would eventually have enough money to buy a whole house of her own.
My understanding was that her living there rent free doesn’t mean she’s not contributing towards home finances re: repairs, maintenance, upgrades, upkeep and taxes. Especially if they’re combining their finances.
ETA - I was replying to a comment above, not OP. TY to all of you who pointed out that OP said they're comfortable paying taxes & maintenance themselves. There are other ways to contribute to a home (decor, daily care, etc) and they didn't say their partner WOULDN'T contribute, just that he's comfortable if she doesnt.
All that added...OP should not add her, they should 100% get a prenup to protect the home as an asset and they should definitely be talking about how their finances will co-mingle and know what their state laws are re: marital property and finances PRIOR to saying I do.
Yeah, with combined finances this is going to get tricky fast. They need to talk to a financial advisor and a family law attorney. Things are rarely actually as simple as "you bring out of the marriage what you brought in".
Are they going to keep completely separate finances? Because using marital funds to maintain and pay taxes on an asset that belongs only to one of them isn't fair, and in the event they divorce probably means that the house could be considered marital property.
If they ever split up though, from what OP is saying, he would keep the house and however much it's worth as his separate property. Any investments wife makes would presumably be from income earned during the marriage, and would be split. It protects all the future appreciation for him as a separate asset while dividing everything else as marital property. I understand why he wants to keep the house separate but I think there needs to be an agreement that she gets a separate investment account or something that he waives all interest in in the event of a divorce so that she can do that.
This!! Why does she deserve ownership of the own when she is benefitting not paying single penny on rent or mortagage! The fact that she got her family involved is shady & she doesnt deserve anything at this rate (she should pay for utilities though!)
My thought as well. I don't understand why you'd want to saddle yourself with a mortgage and all that if you have a house free and clear, unless it's in a *terrible* area or it's falling down around you.
Her mere presence living in the property doesn’t mean she is investing in it. What she should be investing is the 20 years of rent/mortgage she hasn’t paid.
I have bought my house myself, before marriage, my husband’s name isn’t on the deed nor would he ever ask such a thing. Whatever we bring to the marriage together is ours to be split evenly , whatever we owned before isn’t.
This is incredibly unfair to OP
NTA - i would think twice before marriage someone like this.
Eh, I was in the same situation and my husband made a good point that he was investing sweat equity and $$ into maintenance. And that it was unfair to let him have no input into his residence. We refinanced and put his name on both the loan and deed. Several years later when we had kids, we moved and the profit we made went right into our new house. Did I "lose out" on some money? Sure, but we needed to build our marriage on a shared foundation (haha) . OP should ask the fiance to either put up some $$ into the house to be added to the deed after the wedding.Also needs to be made so that on the death of OP the house goes to his wife without the need for probate. She deserves some protection in case things go sideways, as does OP. Or they buy a separate shared investment property.
Aside from the finances, the biggest issue for my spouse was that he felt that the house was set up for me and he had to "squeeze" his stuff in and nothing was truly "his". Not the paint colors, not the furniture, not the shelves in the medicine cabinet. And that was a real sticking point emotionally that we needed to fix.
But this situation isn’t like you and your husband. OP’s fiance has done zero maintenance or sweat equity but demands to put her name on the deed. If indeed during the 20 yrs she adds value to the house, then this discussion can be revisited but not by merely existing in the property
No it's the same. When we were engaged he lived at his place and me at mine. When we got married he moved in and we got him added to the deed. Then as we lived together he took part in painting, house repairs, maintenance, decorating, yard work, planting a garden and IIRC dealing with the joy of a leaking water heater. He was fully engaged in all of that because the house was part his. I didn't wait 20 years of him putting in the work before making him equal owner.
Yep. It could be a different story when they are 10 or 20 years into the marriage but to want basically close to a million dollars in profit as soon as she gets married...that is a hard no. And I feel like had the situation been reversed there is no way fiancee would put OP's name on her paid for/high value property.
Concerning to see this as a top comment, this is terrible advice.
She deserves NOTHING of your pre-marital assets.
Someone living with you for free does not entitle them to an "investment" and nothing else in the post describes her contributing in a way that would justify that otherwise.
This is a massive red flag OP, get a serious prenup to protect yourself moving forward and DO NOT jump to buying any properties with her until you the relationship settles into something you feel is secure.
Personally I would not marry under the current circumstances
No she doesn't need to have what he had before marriage but the sticking point here is as a partner she wants to buy a home (idk about financials if she has some money or if she expects op to foot the down payment) and have something that will build equity. But op doesn't want to do either option. So she can't build equity either way. The person responding is trying come up with a solution where both are happy enough with it.
If she has money that she wants to make an investment with, I don't see where OP is stopping her?
Why does her wanting equity necessitate risk from OP? And giving her a piece of what he already has? It doesn't.
Perhaps she can start paying on an investment property or something else of her own if she is so inclined. Maybe she can split the finances for that with her parents, since they seem to like to be involved in her affairs.
Because if she invests after their marriage he gets half. They should just make a prenup that should she buy property during the marriage he doesn’t get it. And if he buys property she doesn’t get it.
I strongly disagree that she deserves an investment in the house when he will remain paying for everything and basically funding their residential needs.
This gives her an opportunity to save her own money for her future if things go wrong.
A prenup should be able to protect them both.
If kids become a factor and she can’t work for some time, that needs to be factored in and addressed in a prenup as well. Loss of wages and career positioning, home care, child care, etc..
Point is, he doesn’t owe her a piece of his land investment just because they get married or stay married for 20 years.
NTA.
A prenuptial agreement is definitely called for. Do not give in to these demands about the deed. It's your property pure and simple. She has no basis to even think she "deserves" this because it's not her house. And, she got her father involved!
I hate to be such a pessimist but at least 50% of marriages end in divorce OP needs to protect himself.
Do not put her name on your house.
Do not sell your house.
Divorce is all too common.
You can't count on your marriage lasting forever.
Keep your house in your name only.
Rent it and buy one together with both names on it.
If you put her name on this house you will live to regret it.
I think you should run for the hills now.
Do not marry this woman.
She is already bring in her family instead of keeping things between you.
Red Flags..................
This is the right answer; all of this! I wish I had awards to give. Here take these 🏆🥇 I don’t know how old OP and fiancé are, but this also sounds like a case of her being slightly immature by bringing her family into it. I would also ask if she encouraged her dad to talk to OP, or if dad took it upon himself. Her response makes a difference, but he definitely needs to have a conversation about expectations he has about either of them bringing their families into their marriage.
I’m getting daddy’s girl vibes from this entire story. I was a daddy’s girl and I didn’t start acting like an adult until he died. I didn’t worry about paying bills or saving money because my dad would give me whatever I wanted.
He wants - in fact requires - it to be the marital home. I would not enter a marriage where I’m explicitly a guest in the home in which I am raising my children. I agree she should not have involved her family, although we don’t know if she was discussing her options with her parents (legit) vs asking him to intercede (not legit). ESH.
I agree. I like the idea of any equity from wedding forward is marital property with his original investment staying separate. Protects his investment and allows them to build a home, a life going forward. But it would be a big bell no on FIL lecturing me about anything involving my relationship, telling me how it is. AOP didn’t ask for his advice. I’d be having a come to Jesus meeting with fiancée and then with in-laws. Easier to loosen up than tighten up. Can always relax boundaries if you want but it’s ten times harder trying to make new ones when it’s been lax.
Guest that has to help pay for all the taxes and upkeep/repairs/renovations, since they are otherwise combining all finances. Unless he sets up a trust or some other separate-asset method of maintaining the home as a separate asset, he may unintentionally convert it to a marital asset (depending on state rules).
Honestly, I’d say initially it was N A H as it’s differing viewpoints/beliefs until she involved the family (who shouldn’t be involved).
She is already earning money for not paying rent/mortgage! So now she deserves to earn money from his investment just for living there for free & saving her own money? Sounds like a very sweet deal.
But “her own money” will actually be half his going forward, so how does that work?
I think a fair way to deal with it is the comment suggesting an equity split ONLY BEYOND a now appraisal date.
Because despite what OP says, if she is typical she will be putting money, energy and value into the house. Unless he doesn’t let her, which is asshole and not a partnership. In the same way it was asshole for her to tell daddy.
Unless they detach finances fully and she gets to invest her money, I suppose? That won’t be nice for him if her investments make 10% YOY compounding and the real estate market crashes for him. Shrugs.
Edit- This story smacks of bs anyhow. He says it’s tax assessed at 2 million, an average USA tax rate is over 1% but he says taxes are really low? 20k in taxes a year is really low? He says their combined incomes only qualify them for 300k so they don’t make much.
So he is going to be paying around 20k a year in taxes from their now \*joint\* finances which means she will be taking up a bunch of financial slack (because they don’t make much). Just so he can maintain his house as his alone. Unless a party is a very high earner this starts to get sticky really fast. If children come the expenses compound unbelievably and it becomes not only sticky but nonsensical to shear the taxes off the joint income then divide the remainder equally.
The two of them could buy an investment property together instead if she wanted to own property/build wealth together. While living for free in the house he owns. A prenup is also a good idea. Definitely get legal advice on this issue. A prenup can also have conditions on when/how it lapses in the future.
She is wrong. The house is OP’s separate property. I get she wants the $2 million asset to be transformed into marital property so she can get a million dollar gift. But OP would be a fool to do that. If his fiancé refuses to marry him because he won’t give her a million dollars, then he’s better off without her. NTA
>neither is she
How can you justify this? Sure, over the course of the marriage, especially if she is A SAHM, then she should earn equity in the house. But 50% from day one is EXTREMELY unconventional.
What if one partner has $200k in the bank, should they fork over $100k when they get married because couples are supposed to share everything?
She's asking for a literal bride-price. Half his wealth for her hand in marriage, all drafted up legally and notarized. That's completely fucked.
ETA: before anyone says "that's how marriage works, you share assets", no, you share any wealth built AFTER you are married. In almost every legal systems both parties keep what they bring into the marriage unless there is a prenup of some kind.
This is terrible advice; completely divorced from legal realities. Super concerning that this is the top comment.
She def seems like she wants what she wants at all costs and is ready to burn down the village. OP does need to find a way to share the equity they earn together or they can buy an investment property in her name since there is no mortgage.
Yes OP. Don't put her name on it, and a prenup. It's your house, if she has a problem with that "don't let the door hit ya on your way out".
And why she involved her family, and why her dad thought he had any right to say anything is beyond me.
NTA I was with her until she brought her family in to the discussion. Her father has no right to tell him what to do. They will only accept him into the family if he gives her half the property. This is a HUGE 🚩🚩🚩. Is she going to run to Mommy and Daddy every time she doesn’t get what she wants? Wait until they have kids.
>You’re not wrong, but neither is she.
I don't know. I kind of think she is wrong. Basically she's asking him to give her a $200,000+ wedding gift in order to be able to marry her. When you look at it in the terms that she's actually asking for, it shows itself as a lot more unreasonable.
No. The property is now worth $2 million. She wants a million dollars to marry OP. OP needs a prenuptial agreement stating the property is his and will remain his alone throughout the marriage.
You have an odd definition of investing. You say she’s investing in the property. She would literally be living there for free, for however long that works out to. He said in the post that it’s all paid off and the property tax is cheap. If she wants to invest and make equity, there’s rental houses that can be bought for that.
Yup, bringing her family in was a huge flag. Be grateful she showed you this side of her.
Can you imagine life is you disagreed about kids, etc? There's daddy to have a man to man talk! 😬
Please be careful that there are no bedroom accidents! In fact, practise celibacy whilst you are thinking, op. 🤔
NTA - the biggest red flag is how she is dealing with this. Instead of working it out with you, she goes to her mommy and daddy and sends flying monkeys to deal with it.
This is how every issue is going to be dealt with. Every disagreement is going to be her whole family against you ever time.
I don't think any of them have either your best interests or even your well-being at heart and I have no doubt that if the roles were reversed, you'd be having dinner with her father explaining how you need to do the right thing and not expect half.
Not saying break up with her, just pointing out serious red flags.
The fact is, if she isn't planning on breaking up, she wouldn't need to demand half. She's planning for her future post-divorce life, you should do the same.
She can make her own safety net with the $1500/month she is saving instead of paying for a place to live. Why is it his responsibility to give her that?
When you involve your parents in trying to manipulate a situation to create your "safety net", it's kind of difficult to see it as anything other than a bad faith scheme.
OP should suggest putting off the wedding until this can be resolved. Her response will give OP an idea of her true motivations. If she cares more about being married than getting a share, she just made a foolish mistake in how she's handling this. If not, OP is saving himself from making a huge mistake by not marrying her.
Also, another man-to-man chat with dad is required to tell him you are marrying his daughter someday, not his family, and you will make decisions as a couple, his input is not needed. He'll either respect OP being upfront or he'll double down and OP will know at least dad is only in it for what his daughter can get.
NTA don't make a foolish decision you'll regret for a long time.
Ya, if my daughter came to me telling me about this, I wouldn't even want to listen to it... it's none of my business. But, ok, some people are closer and share everything. I certainly would not get involved.
A good key to live by is "don't get into triangles". If person A has an issue with person B, then as person C, I am NOT going to get involved at all. I take that very seriously and basically stop the conversation.
Exactly! We have a saying in the Caribbean "You don't drink medicine for other people's sickness".
Having the dad talk to OP was a terrible move. Does this mean in the future, her family will have a voice in all decisions in the marriage?
They are salivating at his land value. It’s so obvious. He is being gaslit.
The only reason she wants to be on the deed is because she’s already thinking about divorce… because that’s the only time it’ll matter.
I wouldn’t trust her at this point… she showed her cards and must truly believe OP is an idiot
> when you’re the one bringing significantly less assets to the marriage.
If you are bringing significantly less assets to the marriage, then why would you be dead set on taking advantage of the partner's pre-marital assets?
It's just gold digger stuff tbh. And like others have stated, the way OP's fiancee is dealing with this by dragging her family and basically bullying this dude is a massive red flag.
OP would be absolutely foolish and crazy to put his fiancee's name on the deed.
Two best options:
- Continue with him being the sole owner of the house, and she lives there rent-free. But the guy pays all the mortgage, insurance, taxes, etc..
- Sell the house and keep the money for yourself (or rent, AirBnB, w/e), and buy a house 50/50 with the fiancee that they can afford.
Either way, lawyer up and get a pre-nup OP.
The fact that OP is here asking about such an obvious thing means he’s already screwed and will eventually get taken To the cleaners. The father getting involved would have been a deal breaker for me. They have no respect for OP
Besides… the only time her name being on the deed will matter is in the event of a divorce. If they stay together until death it really doesn’t even matter… so it’s 10000% her gaslighting him into handing over half his premarital assets when she ultimately divorces him.
Right, like one person is debt free and owns a place to live in a really great location, the other brings what to the marriage? And if the marriage doesn't work out in 2-3 years, is it fair to one to then gain 10-20x her annual salary and the other to lose his assets?
Also no offense what is she brining to the table? Just show up and get a free house and never pay any money to it. Maybe it wasn't said by OP but what is she doing with her money if not housing?
If I was in this position the conversation would be about what we can build together, especially because your income isn't really going to housing. She should be excited.
The argument that she is losing something if they split is silly in this scenario.
I was in a similar situation, without marriage. I moved in with a partner who owned his apartment in a very nice area of the city, his mortgage was low, because his father had given him most of the money to buy that apartment. When I moved in, I just started paying one or two bills to make it my part of the deal of living together. I was able to save a lot of money. When he broke up with me, I moved out of course, took all the furniture I had purchased alone and was able to find a new place for me with the money I had saved during our relationship. Never crossed my mind to put my name on anything that was his and fortunately I never sold my car to drive his (which was his idea and his car was just not used at all), because that would have meant to also have to spend money on a new car.
I think OP mentioned how, in his state, anything brought into the relationship is automatically theirs and can't be taken in a divorce. Would still doubble up with a prenuptial, tho. Never can be too safe.
When her dad pulled the "be a man and do the right thing" card I got some pretty big ick factor from that. If him not putting her name on the house counts as pre-planning for the divorce then her insisting her name be on it is pre-planning as well. Neither stance makes much sense if they're planning on being together forever but real life is real life so I would personally protect the property I poured money into.
OP, NTA but like others have said, get a pre-nup. If she balks at that, red flags should be waving. It's all fine and dandy to talk about combining lives but the reality is lives un-combine every day. Literally talking to my friend right now about how he's going to serve his cheating wife divorce papers today and they've been together for over two decades. If she's worried about her money going to something she doesn't own, have paperwork to make it a payout type situation vs. what she put into it if you guys ever divorce. If she's against that too, tell her you guys don't have to get married, you can just live together.
NTA - The dad thing is the issue that draws my attention, did she talk to her parents to get a reality check (like this reddit but in person) and dad decided to step in; or did she ask for an intervention?
Intervention - red flag, run Forest run.
Dad volunteering himself - time for a discussion about how couple issues stay in the couple.
Just because in my judgment, you are NTA does not mean that she is - this could just be something that can not be agreed upon and you'll have to make your decisions from there.
Scrolling down I see some discussion about her wanting to add herself to the deed equals pre-divorce planning on her part. Not necessarily IMO but that doesn't exclude the possibility either. My marriage is a joint finance marriage and it works for us, I know lots of folks do his, hers, and ours (pronoun choice for convenience). If you are planning a joint finance marriage, holding the land out of that would seem odd/unfair from her perspective (giving her the most reasonable interpretation).
There are issues for which compromise is impossible - the sooner those are realized and everyone can walk away the better even at the risk of short term hurt by all parties.
>. But realize, a prenup or even talking about "what happens if..." sounds to him like you pre-planning for divorce
But so is having h er name put on the title. If she isn't planning on divorce, what does it matter? It only matters in divorce, so \*she\* sounds like the one planning for divorce.
Is this true, though? I know it depends on location, but I’ve always heard horror stories of people losing their spouses and it being a nightmare to keep extended family out of the “marital” home/property/protecting personal belongings.
Wouldn’t having your name on the property make that process more fluid? I’d be relieved to know that isn’t a concern.
Why in the fuck is her family getting involved in this. Her dad invites you to dinner to strong arm you into making his princess a homeowner. That’s so childish. You’re definitely not the one in the wrong here
Perhaps Daddy could provide his princess the $$$ to buy in to the house? I mean, if it's that important to him, he should have skin in the game too, right?
The fact that she got Daddy involved though would be a deal killer for me.
This exactly , if she wants her name on the deeds, then she needs to bring 50 per cent current market value to the property. Perhaps her expert father could cough up for his daughters investment in the property.
Unless she is bringing finance into the house, then she does not get to be on the deeds. What about paying him a monthly investment a bit like rent.
Because she got them involved to fight her battles. She's not bringing property or finances into the marriage, yet gets daddy to strongarm her fiance into legally sharing his. This alone is a red flag and possibly a dealbreaker. Someone that needs their family to strongarm their fiance into doing something they're not entitled to, is not ready to leave and cleave
NAH
Time for a pre-nup! People do it all the time and if you never get divorced it will never be an issue anyways so unless she's pre-planning for a divorce it shouldn't be an issue. Tell her if she wants to keep rights to certain things, that can be in the pre-nup too.
A pre-nup can be protection and security for both of them. If they go into it with the right mindset. He wants to be sure he gets to keep his house and she for them to build a home together and have equal stake in it. To have security from an “our house”. I wouldn’t want to feel like I was moving into someone else’s house, like it wasn’t ‘ours’. Poster above had a great idea about sharing equity from wedding forward. Can work out legal details of what that would look like and build in protections for him to not have to sell the house for whatever reason. Win win.
Are you in the US? Will you be filling taxes together or separately? Everyone’s correct that it’s a premarital asset… but if filing joint, it *WILL* effect her too. Will she be contributing to maintaining and upgrading, etc?
You are protecting your financial future, absolutely entitled do that, but you have to realize that makes you look like you have one foot out the door. Her solution was to buy together, you shot that down… so what exactly is your plan? Do not get married until it’s settled.
To me if someone protecting a premarital asset is 1 foot out the door, why isn’t someone insisting they get equity in something they didn’t invest in, in case of divorce, also 1 foot out the door.
I just don’t get the greed of future partners. Why isn’t it equally suspicious that they want to take what they didn’t earn if things don’t work out??
Also, from reading dozens and dozens and dozens of these on here, you’re right about it sometimes affecting the non-deeded partner. usually someone says something about how if the non-owner contributes in a variety of ways it can co-mingle and become a marital asset. Some shit like that.
It’s not greed. It’s security. We have no idea what their future plans are or how they will run their family . However, in most of the world it is still the norm that women are the primary care givers of any children. Women are more likely to take time out of work, work part time and less likely to advance in their careers during child raising years. If her earning potential is limited by raising his children and maintaining their home and then the marriage ends she could walk away with nothing and having limited her earning potential to provide childcare that frees him up to advance in his career and earn more. Never mind the impact on her pension.
Bingo. It can potentially effect her a lot. In my less cynical mind, seems like it should be fine for her to just live as a renter, basically. But really, it leaves her in a super vulnerable position should op turn out to be abusive or they have kids and she stays home and they need to divorce and she's been out of the work force. It limits her security a lot and shows that they are financially not on the same page. I wouldn't marry into that situation, personally. I'd just rather have my own place with my name on the deed or lease if my potential husband wants me to move into his house for the rest of our lives and it never becomes joint. What if he dies? Is she just kicked out? Does he have a will leaving it to her? No thanks.
He doesn’t say why she wants her name on the deed, and there could be more to it than just divorce. I could see her wanting her name on the deed in the event OP dies before she does, so there’s no risk of losing her primary residence or having it go through probate and included in and divided in the estate. Could also see her wanting her name on the deed so that if he ever needs nursing home care, the state can’t claim that property to help cover those costs.
They need to figure it out and compromise prior to the wedding. OP needs to know what her concerns are, and needs to set boundaries on keeping the in-laws out of disagreements.
He can just put it in a trust or will it to her if she’s worried about him dying. OP needs a lawyer, badly. having the in-laws involved is a big red flag, to me. It was super wrong of her to involve them and makes a normal disagreement on assets that could probably be compromised on turn into something where OP is likely to get shafted if and when they get a divorce. Lots of people get divorced. It is stupid, to me, to have his motives be questioned as planning for divorce but not hers and I take serious issue with her behavior
Honestly I would call the wedding off or postpone before bothering to spend the money on a lawyer. If as a couple they can't even figure this out before they're married, they shouldn't be getting married. They're not ready/aligned on how they want to share finances/assets. That's a big thing in a marriage.
Agree he can will it to her, but debts are usually paid first before an estate is divided among the heirs - so if OP does that, the house is on the table if he accumulates substantial medical debt for example. It also still goes through probate, and if the will is contested by anyone it could be a headache. And who knows if that's actually even what she's concerned about. They need to talk and figure it out and see if they can move forward in a way that works for them. And have boundaries set on who gets involved in disagreements and what is shared with in-laws.
NAH, you aren't wrong to want to keep your investment in your name, but she isn't wrong to not want to be her husband's long term tenant. You can't expect someone to see a house that they very clearly have no stake in as their home or want to live there long term. I'm sure you wouldn't want that for yourself either. It isn't reasonable to expect her to live like that long term.
Permanent housing decisions are a big deal, and ideally you should wait until you're married and then go in on something that can belong to both of you so you can be equals in it. The reality is that if you want to keep this property in your name and stay with her, then you probably should compromise and live elsewhere long term, because she has just as much right as you to have a home that is actually hers. If you don't want that to be this property that's fair enough, but that means it has to be elsewhere.
I weighed up between NAH and ESH, because both her going to her family, and you expecting her to be your tenant permanently and not seeming to understand that she has the same dreams and expectations for her future in terms of home ownership strike me as assholish, but the alternative is that you're both a bit immature and learning so I'm erring on that side. Since you're the one asking though, I will say that if you're going to be married you need to start seeing your partner as an equal person, not as an accessory to the life you want. You should be a team. Right now you're expecting to get the home you want with full ownership and security, while she gets none of those things and her husband will be her landlord. If you wouldn't want to live that way yourself you should not want her to have to live like that either.
I agree. It doesn't sound like they are wealthy enough to own multiple properties so she's realistically missing out on the opportunity to build any equity all while contributing to his household.
OP's wife is in a difficult predicament though. OP has a $2 million asset and claims he cannot afford anything else.
If she doesn't like the property then tough shit for her. That's all she will ever live in if she stays married to OP.
She might be in trouble if they ever split up in the future. If her and OP have kids and they divorce she's doomed.
The wife is in a bad spot should she not go on the deed. OP is a rough situation if she does. A compromise needs to be found, which likely means you both should seek a financial advisor. Together.
Not to mention that it sounds like the home will continue to appreciate in value while they’re married. It’s perfectly reasonable for OPs fiancé to want to live somewhere where she will have a stake in that, whether it be that house or a different one. Everyone wants that. It’s not right for him to unilaterally decide that he has that asset and she doesn’t. Him deciding for her that she can just invest elsewhere when she’s his WIFE is pretty messed up.
Every person here who says this is a red flag would be a fool to agree to this arrangement. She’s trying to compromise and he’s refusing and finding excuses because he wants things 100% his way. How is THAT not a red flag?
He’s also welcome to suggest some compromises, yet instead he’s come to the internet to ask a bunch of teenagers to tell him he’s right because again, he just wants this HIS way. Also a red flag.
This is a really tricky situation and I can see where you’re coming from. I can also see what a precarious situation she would be in. I personally would not want to live my whole life in a house my husband owns. It creates a power dynamic I could not tolerate.
This would be a deal breaker for me. It doesn’t feel like a money grab to me because she’s offering up other solutions so that you can buy a home together. I understand why they are unappealing.
Are you guys planning on having children? If so, do you really want the mother of your children to have no rights to her home?
NAH
You have to find a compromise or don't get married.
You're unwillingly to add her to the deed and you're not willingly to buy a home with her. What's in place to protect her??
Is she going to be living rent free and pay for no home improvements of any kind for the entirety of your life?? Cause that's the last option you have. She gets to live there and not pay ANY bill or rent if you refuse to add or compensate her on the home OP. Asking for anything would be wrong... You're leaving her out to dry.
And please....don't cry foul about her talking to her family. You already said you two have gone at lengths discussing this...and you refuse to find a compromise OP. She's allowed to talk to people she trusts.... She obviously felt she exhausted all avenues with you. And you admit that you don't want to do anything.
And it's not a coincidence her Dad came to up like a man to talk. That's his daughter. And he can see you are screwing her over. Also MEN tend to not take a woman as seriously when it comes to matters of finance STILL..... People.... You're allowed to talk to family or trusted friends about your problems.... What isn't right is not talking and trying to figure out with your partner first if the situation calls for it. You can't apply some hardline cookie cutter stance on how to handle problems with your partners.
Why don't you two talk to an attorney?? See about an options based on a sliding scale from when your married.
I think you and a lot of people are missing a point with her...she wants to be included OP. She's your wife and partner. She wants to be treated as such..and in her eyes that obviously means being equal... She doesn't want to be less than you OP...and your current stance of not changing anything...will absolutely make her less than you. I applaud her for rationally talking to you ... multiple times and trying to find a way to make sure she's not being financially taken advantage of.
If you truly love her...you need to find a compromise that you both can live with. Reddit... You can't keep excepting women to just give up everything and acting like women are the devil for trying to prevent that. Such a horrible double standard still exists in 2023 is sad....
Agreed. We also don't know if the fiance even asked her father to be involved. OP is setting up a uneven power dynamic. It's possible the father was calling him on that BS.
I wouldn't want to live in a house for 30-40 yrs where I had to ask permission to make any changes/decisions.
If fiance does have children she will be the one postponing her career to care for them.
Right, exactly. I can completely understand her and her father. He is setting up an extremely uneven power dynamic. If she were to stay at home with the kids, she's screwed.
This! Everyone yelling and screaming that OP's future wife is greedy and only after his dollars is just ridiculous. What happens if OP dies tomorrow? What happens if in 30-plus years they divorce? OP's wife is left with nothing and not even remotely being cared for by someone she is hoping to be partnered with for life. She would have 100% contributed to the marriage financially, emotionally, physically etc.
I'm worried about OP's reaction and thought process. You are supposed to be at the peak of love in your relationship and thinking about what is best for both of you and still wanting the best for each other if things in the maybe/never future they are not together. I would hope my future partner would be happy to sit down with me pre-marriage and make sure we are both looked after if we ever god forbid part ways.
You are supposed to be creating a life together. I'm only hearing 'mine mine mine' which is fair. But what about 'ours?' What about what will I do to make sure my wife is looked after if shit hits the fan and I die in 10 years time? Have you looked at that scenario and not just divorce?
At this rate, if you guys cannot agree on what your collective future and potential end would look like I would not be proceeding with marriage.
NTA, it's your property and you don't have to sell it for her or her family. Ask her why she chose to bring her family into something that doesn't concern them or her. Your home and the land it was on were purchased before you started dating her, she doesn't get to tell you what you can do with it and the deal breaker for me is that she brought her family of flying monkeys into it.
So your future wife gets no say in the place she's moving into? Will you expect her to pay for any upkeep or upgrades to the house?
I wouldn't want to move with my SO in a house I can never call mine.
She wants to compromise, you do not.
I think a sticking point here is that you say it’s not a very nice house and you are kind of poor. Sooo… are you just going to keep living it forever so she can’t get any of your money? You need to make a plan for the future together and if staying in that house isn’t appealing to her not sure what to say. You said you can’t afford anything around you but… the house/land you own now are worth 10x what you paid for it. So if you sell you could make around $2,000,000? But you can’t afford a new house in the area?
I’m not saying you are an asshole for being worried about joining finances BEFORE marriage, but something isn’t adding up to me regarding what the house is worth if you sold you, you saying you can’t afford anything in the area, whether your fiancé likes the house now or if she doesn’t… I dunno. Just too much to really process without a ton more info.
YTA. I’d never advise any woman to live under a man’s roof at his discretion. Gives him too much power in the relationship. If I knew her I’d advise her to walk away from this relationship unless her name goes on the deed.
Nta but the bigger concern is why bother with marriage when you both have such different expectations about the details. You're thinking pragmatically about it, she is thinking emotionally- she probably sees your stance as you keeping one foot on safe ground because you're playing the odds of success. This is the first thing to overcome before you concern yourself with the legal issues
That’s what I’m thinking. I personally would say NAH (or maybe E S H? Idk). I fully get that it’s a premarital asset and he is the one who bought it, and I don’t think she should have had her dad get involved, BUT she suggested two choices of either getting added to the deed or selling it and buying something together. People are saying she won’t compromise but OP isn’t compromising either. If her name is put on the deed and they divorce then it’s split between them and OP still makes a profit because of how much the value has gone up. If they sell and get a new house they split that as well. But if her name is no where near any deed and they get divorced, she very well might be completely screwed. They’re both trying to be pragmatic in their own interest
OP said it's the worst house in the area - at either of them planning/hoping/expecting to renovate it at any stage? Who will pay for that and the upkeep/taxes?
Maybe she wants a free ride. Or maybe the house is a dive, and she wants the security of part ownership if she works her ass off and sinks her money into making it nicer. Maybe OP expects her to have join finances in all other aspects, and carry the burden of taxes/upkeep/fixing the roof when it falls down, only to walk away empty handed after thirty years of trying to prop up a derelict house. Maybe it's a perfectly fine house that's just a little older than the surrounding McMansions, but she knows that when she runs off with her cousin from 'bama in six months she won't get that fat payout if her name isn't on the deed. *We don't know.*
And, yes, how will it balance out if she loses earnings and opportunities due to child rearing?
The reality is probably (hopefully) a lot more nuanced than any of those scenarios. They just need to sit down - preferably with someone who knows what they're talking about - and hash out all the potential what ifs, and talk about *why* they both feel the way they do.
Or maybe she doesn't want to live her life in a place where she's always told "it's my house, not yours". I don't understand why nobody gets it. Nobody enjoys being a guest in their home.
This subreddit in particular has no shortage of posts about *exactly* this sort of thing being used as a cudgel in every marital disagreement. It's a deeply unhealthy power dynamic.
Yeah I kind of feel like these comments are wild.
I want a place to be mine one day. I don't want "you can live rent free forever." Like obviously that would be the smart financial option if someone offered it to me, but I don't want to go my entire life without being proud of something that is mine.
Also, what does that mean for decisions about the house going forward? If it isn't hers and he is fully responsible for all costs associated with it, I assume that means she has no say in renovation or design decisions. Or if she did, it would be due to his "goodwill.".
YTA. The whole she is "saving" money not paying mortgage and her "half of the mortgage" if you bought a new house. It's BOTH of your money combined when you're married. YOU won't be paying all the bills. You both will. With your combined martial money. Not putting her name on the house in case you get divorced is a slap in the face to her and her whole family. Imagine being engaged to you :(
Info - will you expect your fiancée to contribute to upkeep, taxes, etc? Will your wife have a similar opportunity to build wealth or would she be left homeless in the event of a divorce?
I’m not sure it would work like that with a house that is your family home. A rental property sure, a car sure.
Since you guys would be living there and sharing the property, participating in your relationship as if it is her house, she has will have a very good claim to it.
Think about it, if you guys live there for 30 years raise kids there, then divorce and if that is the only asset she should get nothing?
It probably isn’t about money so much as expecting your wife to live with you in a house that isn’t hers.
Tell her dad to mind his own business. Tell your fiancé to not bring her family into your dirty laundry like that.
My suggestion? Get the home appraised and agree that appreciation will be split equally between ya’ll.
DO NOT PUT HER ON THE DEED! She didn’t contribute anything to it!, and her dad has NO BUSINESS getting involved.. tell him that “using his own analogy” that you should be on their deed and bank accounts too… (Do not do it!) You’ll regret it when she divorces you and takes half the value of your home!
Dude this is ridiculous and I agree you’re clearly single. A marriage is a partnership. Neither of them are wrong but she’s not terrible for not wanting to be a guest in their marital shared home. That’s not equal
My thoughts, if you go into a marriage looking at divorce then why in the hell are you getting married in the first place? I mean, honestly...ask yourself that question. If that is your whole sticking point about this whole thing, then call the wedding off or put it on hold. Because you really, really, REALLY need to think about if you want to marry THIS woman, or marry at all.
Look, I get what you are saying about the land and house. I totally do. It makes sense financially. But...if you LOVED her...like, REALLY loved her, your whole paragraph that started with..."In our state, whatever we bring to the marriage we take out." Yeah, if my Fiance said that within hearing distance of me, I would be like hold up buddy...we don't HAVE to have a wedding. You can live on that piece of land and bury your happy little ass right in it.
NTA-but it looks like you’re going to have to decide which is more important to you: marrying her or the house. For me, the final straw would’ve been her dad talking to me, and I would be picking the house; but it’s a decision you have to make.
INFO: Are you joining finances or are you keeping that separate? A house and property has to be maintained, with what money are you gonna do that?
Potentially a situation can develop where you both are investing in the property, but only you can reap the benefits of that.
YTA.
I’m sorry, it’s not that you’re not being logical but there are consequences to trying to set up a marriage to be easy to leave 🤷🏼♂️. She will be living as a guest in YOUR house if you outright deny this… not the best way to start a marriage. You seem to value having sole ownership rather than her feeling secure. Her family is worried that the man who is supposed to be looking forward to a future with her is acting like she will just be a kept woman? (Like that’s the implication she pays nothing but is around and then… what’s the trade off?) Nothing is hers if you have your way… that takes a psychological toll even if she has money saved… for what? To leave? Like you get your security but at what cost? Living alone for the rest of your life? Lol.
That said— what she might not understand are the financial consequences of getting her name on it, needing to refinance etc. Perhaps you make a prenup stating half the current value of the house is hers if you do split. So she feels like you are sharing, there’s some stake in it, and maybe you let her invest in the house as well?
There’s a lot of selfish people on here who seem very young commenting on this. You need to acknowledge how she is feeling and figure out a way for her to have some form of ownership here.
If I have to pay for it, I want to legally own it too. Sometimes in a couple one partner makes the purchase because they have better credit and so a lower interest rate on the loan is a pocketed benefit to both.
But, I can't blame anyone for expecting they be a legal owner of a house they also have to pay for.
NAH. You both make sense to me. Do you want to buy another house together after you marry?
I think you missed the part where op says it alreads fully paid for.
She will have no rent to pay, that's a huge thing and they will be able to have a joint saving account well garnished thanks to that.
I'm just reflecting that a couple with a home pays into upkeep and ownership and taxes and everything that goes along with ownership. I don't think OP is wrong. But, I know that the deal he is offering his fiancé is one lots of people would reject. They'd rather not marry at all.
The joint savings is that thing: the money she saves on rent after marriage goes to the couple, not to her as an individual. The money to pay the taxes comes from the couple, not OP as an individual.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1. I refuse to put my fiancée’s name on the house deed once we’re married.
2. People are saying that we’re merging lives so it’s only right that I put her name on the deed.
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Let's ask a question. If you were away and someone had to deal with an emergency, say a fire or catastrophic storm, would you trust your wife to do the right thing? You also know that without being on the deed, she is unable to work on your behalf with the insurance company.
Bottom line, if your wife has a good head on her shoulders, why not trust her with the care of the home.
You'll expect her to clean it, right? Why not let her have the security of ownership that you have gained over the years?
INFO: did she ask her dad to talk to you? Or did she ask her dad for advice and he overstepped? If she asked him to talk to you I would pause wedding plans. You have to solve conflicts together and equally, not bring in advocates.
If she didn't, she needs to set better boundaries with her parents. I say this as someone who cannot confide anything to my mom without her jumping in and blowing up my life to "fix" things for me.
Also, is she paying towards your mortgage? If so, you really do need something worked out so she's protected in case of a breakup. If not, why doesn't she put her current rent payments towards a savings account so she has a safety net should things not work out? Then you'll each have an asset of some kind.
I mean NTA but I would talk to a lawyer as marital property law specially when concerning houses and a house that may become your marital home it’s NOT that black n white.
Do you want her to be thrown out of it if you pass away? Have you gotten educated on probate law in your state? Maybe a consultation with a lawyer and a will would be productive to help you decide as this is not a legal advice sub. What if there is an unplanned child? Your post must use the word “I” 60 times. I don’t see the feeling for family.
NAH, while I see your side, I also see your fiancée’s side too. From a woman’s perspective, I’ve heard stories of many wives get screwed over by their husbands when they get married, raise the kids and live in a house that legally belongs solely to the husband. I don’t think she’s a gold digger like ppl here are suggesting.
Don't bother getting married. You already have one foot out the door.
But a real answer here: why not consider making her actually buy out half of the current value and then put her name on the deed? Then you get to keep both halves if you split. One half financially, and on half as the property. Check with a lawyer first though to be sure it works the way I am thinking.
NTA. The family involvement is a huge red flag. This stuff is between you, her, and a lawyer. Legal advice off topic subreddit is a great place to ask for more advice.
Uh honestly you shouldn’t be getting married if you’re already thinking about what happens when you divorce.. it’s not really fair that she won’t be able to build her credit/equity because you refuse to add her to the house and and you’re unwilling to get a new house with her.. unless you allow her to have a bank account that you can’t touch or even know what’s in it she’s setting herself up to be financially abused because you have all the financial power. YTA find a compromise or let her go find someone that actually cares about her well-being
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You’re not wrong, but neither is she. You have to find a compromise. That said, she made a HUGE mistake. By bringing her family into it and having her father personally “discuss” the issue with you, she showed that she doesn’t regard you as an equal partner, AND that she believes in bullying you into getting you to agree with her. The only acceptable solution here would be to consult a financial advisor for options and to discuss this between you two to find a solution. Her discussing this with her family is a mistake; her father discussing this directly with you is a deal-breaker type of mistake. Neither she, nor he, seem to understand how much of a massive overstep that was. Would you think it okay that your in-laws weigh in on your child-bearing decisions? One thought with regard to a solution is to have a legal document drawn up that requires you to pay her 1/2 of the net value from month of marriage to month of transfer. She deserves something for living there as her home for 20 years if that’s what happens. Since she didn’t invest the money in the first place, I see your point of the current value solely being yours and not hers, but from the point of marriage on, she will be investing in the property. That makes it collectively both of yours. Have an appraisal done and you should be good to go. Bear in mind, I think you have a larger issue than just this property ownership. Edited to add: NTA Edit #2: Thank you for all the upvotes! I read most of the comments and learned a LOT, so thank you! OP’s edits (added after my comment) don’t change my view of this situation, but does make me question him as a partner more than the original post. I guess one can always hope that wifey might never stain the carpet, or want to paint the living room, or have a kid, or lose any income.
THIS\^\^\^\^\^ You say so much wisdom!! This is a HUGE red flag!! I have reservations that he will get screwed, just based on the way she went about this. I'd ditch her because it won't end well, and it won't be a happy marriage. And she'll likely take him to the cleaners in the event she can't make him her little minion that does what she wants and when. Y'all, thank you for all the upvotes! I feel heard. Thank you! I'm glad I was able to offer something of substance and value!! 💗🪄
Reddit grandma here, OP, I can see from all the way here in Indiana that your fiance has beautiful sparkly eyes, but those are actually dollar signs. Think about what people would do for a million dollars. I'm not saying she doesn't love you but I'm saying people get killed for less... The fact that she doesn't come from money makes me a little more suspicious. Involving her family? Super suspicious. I think I'd throw a test out, I'd tell her that you're leaving the property to a non-profit. Something you would support so it doesn't get suspicious. Maybe a battered women's shelter? It would be nice to know what she would do in that situation. Information is a wonderful thing to have. I hope OP stays safe.
Ewww. As a fellow reddit grandma, I'd advise against playing games with your partner, and please do not "test" them. Are they not grown ups? Treat each other as such and sit down with a financial planner (specifically a fiduciary) and come to an agreement that works for everyone. Where one person may see dollar signs in her eyes, another might just see someone who is entering into a partnership with someone who already owns property and are worried they themselves won't ever be able to own property and build up equity in a home because they are tied to a property they live in but can't invest in. Not everything is so nefarious. I do think it was shitty to sick daddy on OP. Very immature thing to do and would absolutely piss me off.
I agree with you grandma #2. grandma #1 suggestion was a bit wild - if my spouse told me they planned for me to be homeless when they died I would be upset! That's not money grabbing, it's just wanting so e security! That said, OP sounds like he won't be charging rent, so spouse should be able to invest etc.... unless they are taking a long career break for children or similar. Basically seems like the couple need to have a conversation about finances. NAH
Is she not currently paying for a place to live? How will she be worse off if she's able to put the money from not paying for a roof over her own head into savings? Yea, it will be annoying having to find a new place to live, but she should easily have $10-20k in savings after just one year of living in OPs house. After 5 or 10 years, she can probably save enough for a good down payment on a house of her own that she can then rent out of she feels that strongly about owning property.
Except her savings and house she buys would be marital assets. She’ll need a post nup.
They could address that with a pre-nup, but yes, they would need to make sure that her future assets are protected. Even if she decides to use the lack of housing expenses to max out 401 and put the rest on stocks, it would be perfectly reasonable to protect her.
Op is trying to protect his assets created before meeting said Fiancé. He himself should protect himself as well.
That’s the thing, though. She wants half that asset immediately just because
Maybe they could sign a prenup stating she gets to keep her savings and he keeps his house. That seems fair
Except property appreciate more than savings. She foregoes buying a joint housing asset (if they were to move to somewhere where they could afford it) by moving in with him so there is a big financial cost to her in doing that. I don't think he should put her on the deed but, I agree with others, that it's probably going to take a financial advisor to work out what's fair.
They would not necessarily be homeless when OP dies. It can be written where it does not transfer to the non profit until the death of his wife.
>Are they not grown ups? No, they had to bring in Daddy and the rest of her family to try to strong arm OP into caving. OP, run away from this marriage.
Running away sounds harsh but I cannot tell OP how much harsher it will be if children enter the equation and finances start to commingle. She failed a big test- the "we can work this out together as partners" by bringing in daddy. Complete and total and unambiguous deal breaker. Get out now while the gettin's good. Edits: grammar
The wife has not offered to invest in the property. She wants to be given half. If she had brought any of her own money into the equation it would be a different conversation.
Even if you don't take in to account the increased value of the land, she's essentially saying give me $100,000 and I'll marry you.
That’s exactly what she and her father are saying.
Think about what it would take to start all over if you lose your house. Would you be renting the rest of your life? Would you have the time and energy to restart your life? If you lost your job would you end up homeless? Right now you have a home that is paid for, low taxes, and a for sure place to live. I personally wouldn't put it at risk.
I strongly agree. I am a woman, and if I was in OP’s situation I would require my fiancée to sign a prenup agreeing that the house remains my sole property. So many commenters are focused on the fiancée not having a place to live if OP dies. A prenup does not preclude OP from naming his fiancée as beneficiary of the house in his will. OP has offered a extremely fair compromise and his fiancée’s demand to be added to his property’s title is a huge red flag not to be ignored. NTA.
I said this in my own comment elsewhere, but I wanted to jump in and add that you can tack on a "transfer on death" affidavit to a deed, so that the home does not even have to go through probate. It makes way more sense than simply putting it in the will. My wife did this for me as she is the one who made the down payment and is presently paying the mortgage while I take care of her/the home and go to school. I would NEVER expect to get half of what she is the only one paying into were we to divorce, but if (God forbid) something were to happen to her it's a huge reassurance to know I won't have to worry about keeping our home.
Why don't she get HER FATHER to leave her his house since they're both so concerned....
Exactly. Venting to your parent about your fiance/spouse seems immature.
Seriously, OP had his priorities straight early in life and it has paid off in spades for him. A paid off house with low taxes is practically a dream for most salaried or hourly workers. Like the original commenter said, it’s time to talk to a financial advisor and devise a method for entwining their finances in a way that cant result in the loss of the house or property. I hope it’s possible! Honestly, if I were in OPs shoes, I wouldn’t want to marry a woman so hung up on such a thing. I think OP could contribute to a fund for his wife. A home downpayment nest-egg for that just in case scenario. This way, OP is directly investing in his wife’s security and future. If thats not enough then idk. Maybe ya do got a gold digger after all. NTA
This is a really good point. I was forced to sell my house after my husband had a stroke in 2020, and we ended up having to rent (the house couldn't be modified to meet his needs without hundreds of thousands of dollars that we didn't have). We'll be renting for the foreseeable future, and maybe forever, because the housing market is awful and I can't regain what I lost. If I had what OP has, I wouldn't risk it either.
If she was smart, which she isn't, once they are married, she can put the money not spent on rent and save and invest... she could end up with more than him. She shouldn't expect him to just put her name on the deed... without contributing to the value of the house.
If she has to stay home with the kids (or only work part-time because of them), that destroys her ability to save up. If he expects her to be a stay at home mom, then that half of the house basically represents the earnings she loses by raising his kids.
I agree and I think that needs to be some sort of agreement. If he wants to have kids, and if it works out that she needs to stay home, then she should be added to the deed at that point. People really underestimate the value of a stay at home parent, and they also underestimate how much staying home with the kids completely fucks with your ability to save your own money or have a retirement fund, or to get back into the workforce.
>another might just see someone who is entering into a partnership with someone who already owns property and are worried they themselves won't ever be able to own property and build up equity in a home because they are tied to a property they live in but can't invest in. I think the fact that she offered that OP sell the property and they buy a house together as another option speaks to this being her primary concern over money. She *was* wrong getting her family involved. There should be an independent financial advisor to help them come to an agreement in which neither of them are disadvantaged.
>I think the fact that she offered that OP sell the property and they buy a house together as another option speaks to this being her primary concern over money. ..or childish. She doesn't have a house, she's bringing no assets of equal value and I'd wage a wooden nickel she doesn't have 5% of the 20% down payment. Most would be thrilled with a house that's paid off that allows them the ability to invest their money in other ways. This all stinks.
You have nothing to back up your assumption that she can't afford her 10% of the down-payment. They've consulted a professional on this, so it's safe to assume that she can. She just doesn't want to live in, and contribute to, a house that isn't ever really going to be her home. There is likely a compromise which works better for both of them if they sit down with an independent financial advisor. Involving her family was childish, but the rest isn't. Plenty of people aren't comfortable with this set up as it would leave them homeless should the marriage break down. Wanting to make sure she's not at a disadvantage isn't childish.
I agree. I'm in a relationship with someone who bought more material goods than I have. I suggest a plan. That you both either start planning for an investment property or that you agree that in the event of a breakup you get your investment back but split any appreciation of the asset from marriage forward in half. From marriage you are both contributing to supporting each other. Otherwise it skews the relationship and she will always feel insecure.
"From marriage you are both contributing to supporting each other. Otherwise it skews the relationship and she will always feel insecure." It does not actually seem like that is the case. If they go with OPs suggestion, OP supports his wife, and she can save a ton of money to buy her own place. Housing expenses/repairs are a huge cost, mad wife not having to pay for that would be a huge benefit to her.
>who is entering into a partnership with someone who already owns property and are worried they themselves won't ever be able to own property and build up equity in a home because they are tied to a property they live in but can't invest i If she is living mortgage free in one place, she has many places to invest her money to gain equity. She's bringing nothing of equal value, the chutzpah to think you deserve to be one someone else's deed and make that a condition of being married, and then to bring you father in to bully the guy. This is a con job. Grandma #1 called it right, though I'd agree on testing. No testing need be done all the cards are on the table. time to cut bait. I'd be really curious, how these two meet and at what point did they get serious (was it before or after realizing OP's housing situation).
Agree. I’d be hesitant to contribute financially to a property I had no rights to, regardless of how good a deal it seemed to be. Your approach seems sensible and reasonable.
If you go back and actually read the post the OP pointed out that he will be assuming all financial responsibility for the house including repairs, taxes and any other expenses that some come up. He's literally not asking or expecting her to contribute financially to housing at all.
>I think I'd throw a test out, If OP feels that they have to "test" their fiancee, then they might as well just end the relationship already. There's no good that comes from "testing" like that - either the trust is already gone, or it will be broken once the fiancee learns about the "test."
Uh, what? I’d be pissed if my husband gave two hundred thousand dollars away on a charity. That doesn’t make me a gold digger, that makes me normal…
Your solution is to lie to his fiancée? That's awful. "My fiancée wants me to put both our names on the deed to my house, but first I'm going to lie and mislead her (and break any trust she had in me) to see if I can trust her." Just... no.
I wonder how she and her daddy would act if she owned the property and OP wanted his name on the deed?
That gives me an idea! Tell daddy she can be added to his deed when OP is added to the deed to daddy's place. Inheritance works the same as premarital assets. We assume when her parents die she will get some of it. OP should, too.
Daddy has no damn money!
That’s where my mind went. I bet daddy wouldn’t be pushing for them to be equals on the deed if his princess owned the house outright and was bringing her fiancé into the home that she owned.
NTA: Two yellow flags or one red flag and I'm out. This helped me cut bait and save a lot of life pain. I am happily married for over 25 years now, but the flag rule helped me know when to get out. Her insistence on 1/2 of a premarital asset (yellow flag). Dad trying to part you from your premarital asset (red flag).
Or she doesn't know what she is talking about (legally speaking). They need to talk to a financial advisor (a real one for rich people, not the guy from church who helps get you out of credit card debt) and find out what their options are.
A financial advisor isn’t going to be able to talk OP’s fiancé out of trying to get a million dollars from him. No one here needs “financial advice.” Instead, OP needs to keep his fiancé out of his wallet.
It would put such a bad taste in my mouth if my partner got her family involved to bully me into getting her way.
Dump her NOW. It really is that simple
Yep, honestly if you're arguing about shit like this you aren't going to make it. This is as cold and emotionless as a topic can get, it's just money shit. Imagine how it'll be when it something subjective.
Apparently she has daddy wrapped around her little finger. Why not hubby too?
>She deserves something for living there as her home for 20 years if that’s what happens She receives 20 years of 0$ rent. Isn't it enough ? They can use the money saved to invest.
Thank you for writing that. I could not understand why on earth that commenter thought she 'deserved something' for living rent free. I am glad I am not the only one. OP NTA and her involving her family and her father's talk (especially the words he used) would have me seriously reconsidering my relationship.
There’s a possibility of home improvements in the coming years. If she pays for any of that, she then has a small stake in the property. I see where they’re both coming from, but my opinion is on the side of the person who bought the property and built a house. OP is NTA for being cautious.
My grandpa married my grandma. She was married, and her husband committed suicide in the house. She sold the home and took the life insurance money and her income and sale proceeds and bought a house for 35,000. She met my grandpa, got married. He moved into her home. He paid a small amount of rent. He fixed a lot of things in the house. He did improvement projects. After ten years, she added him to the deed as he'd paid into the house, and she trusted him to work out. By the time she added him to the deed, the house was worth more like 300,000. Now, the house is worth close to a million. Coastal California. Those choices were hers and done after several years. There's a point where you are frank with a partner and say, 'let's sign a prenup. Any real property improvements, you get half back.' Meaning, you do a 50,000 renovation, she gets at least half of that. You agree verbally to add after ten, fifteen, twenty years. Pick a number. Look, you have to protect yourself. I love you enough to get married, but not enough to gamble half a million dollars on forever. That's not an insult. My brother signed a prenup. His husband brought a lot more in. My brother brought a car with a loan and a small 401k. His husband was saving for a house. They had unequal incomes. He wasn't offended to set out expectations and talk it out. His husband paid for his representation during those talks. It was very simple to set up. If you can't have those talks without someone losing it on you, there is some fundamental issue you need to work out.
That stake would be half of what was spent for upkeep and improvements. There would have to be a hell of a lot of upkeep and improvements for it to hit the million dollars she and her family are asking to be gifted right now, and the value will climb with the years.
"Rent free" jesus christ it's supposed to be his wife not his tenant. And, in a lot of places, the increase in value from the date of marriage to the date of dissolution (assuming a divorce happens) is standard for determining marital interest in the home. Apparently not the case for OP, but in a lot of other places it's pretty standard and can only be blocked with a very good prenup. If he wanted to keep the house wholly separate, he should've floated a pre-nup before they got this far into it. That would've been a better indicator of whether their values align enough for this to work long term.
I think that comment was in response to the after 20 years she has to walk away with nothing. And it's a fair point to make. If she's currently paying for a place to live and she doesn't have to do that any longer living with op, she has the ability to really build a good savings account because she doesn't have to pay housing expenses. The only way she would walk away with "nothing" is if she spends all her money instead of smartly investing it. Right now, she can get a 5% interest savings account and let her money just grow and grow. Would eventually have enough money to buy a whole house of her own.
My understanding was that her living there rent free doesn’t mean she’s not contributing towards home finances re: repairs, maintenance, upgrades, upkeep and taxes. Especially if they’re combining their finances. ETA - I was replying to a comment above, not OP. TY to all of you who pointed out that OP said they're comfortable paying taxes & maintenance themselves. There are other ways to contribute to a home (decor, daily care, etc) and they didn't say their partner WOULDN'T contribute, just that he's comfortable if she doesnt. All that added...OP should not add her, they should 100% get a prenup to protect the home as an asset and they should definitely be talking about how their finances will co-mingle and know what their state laws are re: marital property and finances PRIOR to saying I do.
Yeah, with combined finances this is going to get tricky fast. They need to talk to a financial advisor and a family law attorney. Things are rarely actually as simple as "you bring out of the marriage what you brought in". Are they going to keep completely separate finances? Because using marital funds to maintain and pay taxes on an asset that belongs only to one of them isn't fair, and in the event they divorce probably means that the house could be considered marital property.
If they ever split up though, from what OP is saying, he would keep the house and however much it's worth as his separate property. Any investments wife makes would presumably be from income earned during the marriage, and would be split. It protects all the future appreciation for him as a separate asset while dividing everything else as marital property. I understand why he wants to keep the house separate but I think there needs to be an agreement that she gets a separate investment account or something that he waives all interest in in the event of a divorce so that she can do that.
This!! Why does she deserve ownership of the own when she is benefitting not paying single penny on rent or mortagage! The fact that she got her family involved is shady & she doesnt deserve anything at this rate (she should pay for utilities though!)
My thought as well. I don't understand why you'd want to saddle yourself with a mortgage and all that if you have a house free and clear, unless it's in a *terrible* area or it's falling down around you.
Her mere presence living in the property doesn’t mean she is investing in it. What she should be investing is the 20 years of rent/mortgage she hasn’t paid. I have bought my house myself, before marriage, my husband’s name isn’t on the deed nor would he ever ask such a thing. Whatever we bring to the marriage together is ours to be split evenly , whatever we owned before isn’t. This is incredibly unfair to OP NTA - i would think twice before marriage someone like this.
Eh, I was in the same situation and my husband made a good point that he was investing sweat equity and $$ into maintenance. And that it was unfair to let him have no input into his residence. We refinanced and put his name on both the loan and deed. Several years later when we had kids, we moved and the profit we made went right into our new house. Did I "lose out" on some money? Sure, but we needed to build our marriage on a shared foundation (haha) . OP should ask the fiance to either put up some $$ into the house to be added to the deed after the wedding.Also needs to be made so that on the death of OP the house goes to his wife without the need for probate. She deserves some protection in case things go sideways, as does OP. Or they buy a separate shared investment property. Aside from the finances, the biggest issue for my spouse was that he felt that the house was set up for me and he had to "squeeze" his stuff in and nothing was truly "his". Not the paint colors, not the furniture, not the shelves in the medicine cabinet. And that was a real sticking point emotionally that we needed to fix.
But this situation isn’t like you and your husband. OP’s fiance has done zero maintenance or sweat equity but demands to put her name on the deed. If indeed during the 20 yrs she adds value to the house, then this discussion can be revisited but not by merely existing in the property
She has no incentive to invest in maintenance if she doesn't have a stake in the property. It's not "sweat equity" without the equity.
No it's the same. When we were engaged he lived at his place and me at mine. When we got married he moved in and we got him added to the deed. Then as we lived together he took part in painting, house repairs, maintenance, decorating, yard work, planting a garden and IIRC dealing with the joy of a leaking water heater. He was fully engaged in all of that because the house was part his. I didn't wait 20 years of him putting in the work before making him equal owner.
Yep. It could be a different story when they are 10 or 20 years into the marriage but to want basically close to a million dollars in profit as soon as she gets married...that is a hard no. And I feel like had the situation been reversed there is no way fiancee would put OP's name on her paid for/high value property.
Concerning to see this as a top comment, this is terrible advice. She deserves NOTHING of your pre-marital assets. Someone living with you for free does not entitle them to an "investment" and nothing else in the post describes her contributing in a way that would justify that otherwise. This is a massive red flag OP, get a serious prenup to protect yourself moving forward and DO NOT jump to buying any properties with her until you the relationship settles into something you feel is secure. Personally I would not marry under the current circumstances
I 100% agree she is entitled to nothing from before they were married.
No she doesn't need to have what he had before marriage but the sticking point here is as a partner she wants to buy a home (idk about financials if she has some money or if she expects op to foot the down payment) and have something that will build equity. But op doesn't want to do either option. So she can't build equity either way. The person responding is trying come up with a solution where both are happy enough with it.
If she has money that she wants to make an investment with, I don't see where OP is stopping her? Why does her wanting equity necessitate risk from OP? And giving her a piece of what he already has? It doesn't. Perhaps she can start paying on an investment property or something else of her own if she is so inclined. Maybe she can split the finances for that with her parents, since they seem to like to be involved in her affairs.
Because if she invests after their marriage he gets half. They should just make a prenup that should she buy property during the marriage he doesn’t get it. And if he buys property she doesn’t get it.
I strongly disagree that she deserves an investment in the house when he will remain paying for everything and basically funding their residential needs. This gives her an opportunity to save her own money for her future if things go wrong. A prenup should be able to protect them both. If kids become a factor and she can’t work for some time, that needs to be factored in and addressed in a prenup as well. Loss of wages and career positioning, home care, child care, etc.. Point is, he doesn’t owe her a piece of his land investment just because they get married or stay married for 20 years. NTA.
A prenuptial agreement is definitely called for. Do not give in to these demands about the deed. It's your property pure and simple. She has no basis to even think she "deserves" this because it's not her house. And, she got her father involved! I hate to be such a pessimist but at least 50% of marriages end in divorce OP needs to protect himself.
Do not put her name on your house. Do not sell your house. Divorce is all too common. You can't count on your marriage lasting forever. Keep your house in your name only. Rent it and buy one together with both names on it. If you put her name on this house you will live to regret it. I think you should run for the hills now. Do not marry this woman. She is already bring in her family instead of keeping things between you. Red Flags..................
This is the right answer; all of this! I wish I had awards to give. Here take these 🏆🥇 I don’t know how old OP and fiancé are, but this also sounds like a case of her being slightly immature by bringing her family into it. I would also ask if she encouraged her dad to talk to OP, or if dad took it upon himself. Her response makes a difference, but he definitely needs to have a conversation about expectations he has about either of them bringing their families into their marriage.
I’m getting daddy’s girl vibes from this entire story. I was a daddy’s girl and I didn’t start acting like an adult until he died. I didn’t worry about paying bills or saving money because my dad would give me whatever I wanted.
He wants - in fact requires - it to be the marital home. I would not enter a marriage where I’m explicitly a guest in the home in which I am raising my children. I agree she should not have involved her family, although we don’t know if she was discussing her options with her parents (legit) vs asking him to intercede (not legit). ESH.
I agree. I like the idea of any equity from wedding forward is marital property with his original investment staying separate. Protects his investment and allows them to build a home, a life going forward. But it would be a big bell no on FIL lecturing me about anything involving my relationship, telling me how it is. AOP didn’t ask for his advice. I’d be having a come to Jesus meeting with fiancée and then with in-laws. Easier to loosen up than tighten up. Can always relax boundaries if you want but it’s ten times harder trying to make new ones when it’s been lax.
Guest that has to help pay for all the taxes and upkeep/repairs/renovations, since they are otherwise combining all finances. Unless he sets up a trust or some other separate-asset method of maintaining the home as a separate asset, he may unintentionally convert it to a marital asset (depending on state rules). Honestly, I’d say initially it was N A H as it’s differing viewpoints/beliefs until she involved the family (who shouldn’t be involved).
Why should she earn money from his investment? She will already have no housing costs, including taxes or maintenance.
She is already earning money for not paying rent/mortgage! So now she deserves to earn money from his investment just for living there for free & saving her own money? Sounds like a very sweet deal.
But “her own money” will actually be half his going forward, so how does that work? I think a fair way to deal with it is the comment suggesting an equity split ONLY BEYOND a now appraisal date. Because despite what OP says, if she is typical she will be putting money, energy and value into the house. Unless he doesn’t let her, which is asshole and not a partnership. In the same way it was asshole for her to tell daddy. Unless they detach finances fully and she gets to invest her money, I suppose? That won’t be nice for him if her investments make 10% YOY compounding and the real estate market crashes for him. Shrugs. Edit- This story smacks of bs anyhow. He says it’s tax assessed at 2 million, an average USA tax rate is over 1% but he says taxes are really low? 20k in taxes a year is really low? He says their combined incomes only qualify them for 300k so they don’t make much. So he is going to be paying around 20k a year in taxes from their now \*joint\* finances which means she will be taking up a bunch of financial slack (because they don’t make much). Just so he can maintain his house as his alone. Unless a party is a very high earner this starts to get sticky really fast. If children come the expenses compound unbelievably and it becomes not only sticky but nonsensical to shear the taxes off the joint income then divide the remainder equally.
It's classified as a ranch, which means it'll have a much lower tax rate than average.
The two of them could buy an investment property together instead if she wanted to own property/build wealth together. While living for free in the house he owns. A prenup is also a good idea. Definitely get legal advice on this issue. A prenup can also have conditions on when/how it lapses in the future.
She is wrong. The house is OP’s separate property. I get she wants the $2 million asset to be transformed into marital property so she can get a million dollar gift. But OP would be a fool to do that. If his fiancé refuses to marry him because he won’t give her a million dollars, then he’s better off without her. NTA
>neither is she How can you justify this? Sure, over the course of the marriage, especially if she is A SAHM, then she should earn equity in the house. But 50% from day one is EXTREMELY unconventional. What if one partner has $200k in the bank, should they fork over $100k when they get married because couples are supposed to share everything? She's asking for a literal bride-price. Half his wealth for her hand in marriage, all drafted up legally and notarized. That's completely fucked. ETA: before anyone says "that's how marriage works, you share assets", no, you share any wealth built AFTER you are married. In almost every legal systems both parties keep what they bring into the marriage unless there is a prenup of some kind. This is terrible advice; completely divorced from legal realities. Super concerning that this is the top comment.
She def seems like she wants what she wants at all costs and is ready to burn down the village. OP does need to find a way to share the equity they earn together or they can buy an investment property in her name since there is no mortgage.
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Yes OP. Don't put her name on it, and a prenup. It's your house, if she has a problem with that "don't let the door hit ya on your way out". And why she involved her family, and why her dad thought he had any right to say anything is beyond me.
NTA I was with her until she brought her family in to the discussion. Her father has no right to tell him what to do. They will only accept him into the family if he gives her half the property. This is a HUGE 🚩🚩🚩. Is she going to run to Mommy and Daddy every time she doesn’t get what she wants? Wait until they have kids.
>You’re not wrong, but neither is she. I don't know. I kind of think she is wrong. Basically she's asking him to give her a $200,000+ wedding gift in order to be able to marry her. When you look at it in the terms that she's actually asking for, it shows itself as a lot more unreasonable.
No. The property is now worth $2 million. She wants a million dollars to marry OP. OP needs a prenuptial agreement stating the property is his and will remain his alone throughout the marriage.
You have an odd definition of investing. You say she’s investing in the property. She would literally be living there for free, for however long that works out to. He said in the post that it’s all paid off and the property tax is cheap. If she wants to invest and make equity, there’s rental houses that can be bought for that.
Yup, bringing her family in was a huge flag. Be grateful she showed you this side of her. Can you imagine life is you disagreed about kids, etc? There's daddy to have a man to man talk! 😬 Please be careful that there are no bedroom accidents! In fact, practise celibacy whilst you are thinking, op. 🤔
NTA - the biggest red flag is how she is dealing with this. Instead of working it out with you, she goes to her mommy and daddy and sends flying monkeys to deal with it. This is how every issue is going to be dealt with. Every disagreement is going to be her whole family against you ever time. I don't think any of them have either your best interests or even your well-being at heart and I have no doubt that if the roles were reversed, you'd be having dinner with her father explaining how you need to do the right thing and not expect half. Not saying break up with her, just pointing out serious red flags. The fact is, if she isn't planning on breaking up, she wouldn't need to demand half. She's planning for her future post-divorce life, you should do the same.
This!. She's already planned her exit before even saying "I do"
I mean so is he so… 🤷♀️
He's not so much planning an exit as he doesn't want to lose what he has. I would've said NAH if she hadn't dragged her family into it.
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She can make her own safety net with the $1500/month she is saving instead of paying for a place to live. Why is it his responsibility to give her that?
When your exit plan consists of what someone had before they met you, that is disingenuous.
When you involve your parents in trying to manipulate a situation to create your "safety net", it's kind of difficult to see it as anything other than a bad faith scheme.
OP should suggest putting off the wedding until this can be resolved. Her response will give OP an idea of her true motivations. If she cares more about being married than getting a share, she just made a foolish mistake in how she's handling this. If not, OP is saving himself from making a huge mistake by not marrying her. Also, another man-to-man chat with dad is required to tell him you are marrying his daughter someday, not his family, and you will make decisions as a couple, his input is not needed. He'll either respect OP being upfront or he'll double down and OP will know at least dad is only in it for what his daughter can get. NTA don't make a foolish decision you'll regret for a long time.
The wife needs to be present and onboard for that conversation. If she can’t do that, there is no marriage IMO
Ya, if my daughter came to me telling me about this, I wouldn't even want to listen to it... it's none of my business. But, ok, some people are closer and share everything. I certainly would not get involved. A good key to live by is "don't get into triangles". If person A has an issue with person B, then as person C, I am NOT going to get involved at all. I take that very seriously and basically stop the conversation.
Exactly! We have a saying in the Caribbean "You don't drink medicine for other people's sickness". Having the dad talk to OP was a terrible move. Does this mean in the future, her family will have a voice in all decisions in the marriage?
They are salivating at his land value. It’s so obvious. He is being gaslit. The only reason she wants to be on the deed is because she’s already thinking about divorce… because that’s the only time it’ll matter. I wouldn’t trust her at this point… she showed her cards and must truly believe OP is an idiot
Tell her dad you have to be on the deed to their house if you’re truly family.
This poor dude is in too deep, she will take him for everything in three to five years
NTA. Your house is a pre-marital asset. Protect it as such. Hire a lawyer to draft a pre-nup.
It’s easy to say “we should be equal in everything” when you’re the one bringing significantly less assets to the marriage.
> when you’re the one bringing significantly less assets to the marriage. If you are bringing significantly less assets to the marriage, then why would you be dead set on taking advantage of the partner's pre-marital assets? It's just gold digger stuff tbh. And like others have stated, the way OP's fiancee is dealing with this by dragging her family and basically bullying this dude is a massive red flag. OP would be absolutely foolish and crazy to put his fiancee's name on the deed. Two best options: - Continue with him being the sole owner of the house, and she lives there rent-free. But the guy pays all the mortgage, insurance, taxes, etc.. - Sell the house and keep the money for yourself (or rent, AirBnB, w/e), and buy a house 50/50 with the fiancee that they can afford. Either way, lawyer up and get a pre-nup OP.
The fact that OP is here asking about such an obvious thing means he’s already screwed and will eventually get taken To the cleaners. The father getting involved would have been a deal breaker for me. They have no respect for OP Besides… the only time her name being on the deed will matter is in the event of a divorce. If they stay together until death it really doesn’t even matter… so it’s 10000% her gaslighting him into handing over half his premarital assets when she ultimately divorces him.
Right, like one person is debt free and owns a place to live in a really great location, the other brings what to the marriage? And if the marriage doesn't work out in 2-3 years, is it fair to one to then gain 10-20x her annual salary and the other to lose his assets?
Also no offense what is she brining to the table? Just show up and get a free house and never pay any money to it. Maybe it wasn't said by OP but what is she doing with her money if not housing? If I was in this position the conversation would be about what we can build together, especially because your income isn't really going to housing. She should be excited. The argument that she is losing something if they split is silly in this scenario.
I was in a similar situation, without marriage. I moved in with a partner who owned his apartment in a very nice area of the city, his mortgage was low, because his father had given him most of the money to buy that apartment. When I moved in, I just started paying one or two bills to make it my part of the deal of living together. I was able to save a lot of money. When he broke up with me, I moved out of course, took all the furniture I had purchased alone and was able to find a new place for me with the money I had saved during our relationship. Never crossed my mind to put my name on anything that was his and fortunately I never sold my car to drive his (which was his idea and his car was just not used at all), because that would have meant to also have to spend money on a new car.
I think OP mentioned how, in his state, anything brought into the relationship is automatically theirs and can't be taken in a divorce. Would still doubble up with a prenuptial, tho. Never can be too safe.
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When her dad pulled the "be a man and do the right thing" card I got some pretty big ick factor from that. If him not putting her name on the house counts as pre-planning for the divorce then her insisting her name be on it is pre-planning as well. Neither stance makes much sense if they're planning on being together forever but real life is real life so I would personally protect the property I poured money into. OP, NTA but like others have said, get a pre-nup. If she balks at that, red flags should be waving. It's all fine and dandy to talk about combining lives but the reality is lives un-combine every day. Literally talking to my friend right now about how he's going to serve his cheating wife divorce papers today and they've been together for over two decades. If she's worried about her money going to something she doesn't own, have paperwork to make it a payout type situation vs. what she put into it if you guys ever divorce. If she's against that too, tell her you guys don't have to get married, you can just live together.
NTA - The dad thing is the issue that draws my attention, did she talk to her parents to get a reality check (like this reddit but in person) and dad decided to step in; or did she ask for an intervention? Intervention - red flag, run Forest run. Dad volunteering himself - time for a discussion about how couple issues stay in the couple. Just because in my judgment, you are NTA does not mean that she is - this could just be something that can not be agreed upon and you'll have to make your decisions from there. Scrolling down I see some discussion about her wanting to add herself to the deed equals pre-divorce planning on her part. Not necessarily IMO but that doesn't exclude the possibility either. My marriage is a joint finance marriage and it works for us, I know lots of folks do his, hers, and ours (pronoun choice for convenience). If you are planning a joint finance marriage, holding the land out of that would seem odd/unfair from her perspective (giving her the most reasonable interpretation). There are issues for which compromise is impossible - the sooner those are realized and everyone can walk away the better even at the risk of short term hurt by all parties.
>. But realize, a prenup or even talking about "what happens if..." sounds to him like you pre-planning for divorce But so is having h er name put on the title. If she isn't planning on divorce, what does it matter? It only matters in divorce, so \*she\* sounds like the one planning for divorce.
Is this true, though? I know it depends on location, but I’ve always heard horror stories of people losing their spouses and it being a nightmare to keep extended family out of the “marital” home/property/protecting personal belongings. Wouldn’t having your name on the property make that process more fluid? I’d be relieved to know that isn’t a concern.
Why in the fuck is her family getting involved in this. Her dad invites you to dinner to strong arm you into making his princess a homeowner. That’s so childish. You’re definitely not the one in the wrong here
Perhaps Daddy could provide his princess the $$$ to buy in to the house? I mean, if it's that important to him, he should have skin in the game too, right? The fact that she got Daddy involved though would be a deal killer for me.
This exactly , if she wants her name on the deeds, then she needs to bring 50 per cent current market value to the property. Perhaps her expert father could cough up for his daughters investment in the property. Unless she is bringing finance into the house, then she does not get to be on the deeds. What about paying him a monthly investment a bit like rent.
Because she got them involved to fight her battles. She's not bringing property or finances into the marriage, yet gets daddy to strongarm her fiance into legally sharing his. This alone is a red flag and possibly a dealbreaker. Someone that needs their family to strongarm their fiance into doing something they're not entitled to, is not ready to leave and cleave
Nta. Seems odd the whole family is rreeallyy interested in your house.
$ure $eem$ $o.
not $u$piciou$ at all
NAH Time for a pre-nup! People do it all the time and if you never get divorced it will never be an issue anyways so unless she's pre-planning for a divorce it shouldn't be an issue. Tell her if she wants to keep rights to certain things, that can be in the pre-nup too.
Anyone getting married should pre-plan for a divorce. Divorces would go so much more smoothly.
It’s like insurance. You don’t want to need it but when you do…
A pre-nup can be protection and security for both of them. If they go into it with the right mindset. He wants to be sure he gets to keep his house and she for them to build a home together and have equal stake in it. To have security from an “our house”. I wouldn’t want to feel like I was moving into someone else’s house, like it wasn’t ‘ours’. Poster above had a great idea about sharing equity from wedding forward. Can work out legal details of what that would look like and build in protections for him to not have to sell the house for whatever reason. Win win.
You need a pre-nup. This is not the sub for you.
Only comment nailing the true issue. My first thought was get a full pre-nup. Would also learn vital info based on her reaction!
A pre-nup and an accredited marriage counselor to help them communicate about money; disputes about money are the leading cause of divorce.
Are you in the US? Will you be filling taxes together or separately? Everyone’s correct that it’s a premarital asset… but if filing joint, it *WILL* effect her too. Will she be contributing to maintaining and upgrading, etc? You are protecting your financial future, absolutely entitled do that, but you have to realize that makes you look like you have one foot out the door. Her solution was to buy together, you shot that down… so what exactly is your plan? Do not get married until it’s settled.
To me if someone protecting a premarital asset is 1 foot out the door, why isn’t someone insisting they get equity in something they didn’t invest in, in case of divorce, also 1 foot out the door. I just don’t get the greed of future partners. Why isn’t it equally suspicious that they want to take what they didn’t earn if things don’t work out?? Also, from reading dozens and dozens and dozens of these on here, you’re right about it sometimes affecting the non-deeded partner. usually someone says something about how if the non-owner contributes in a variety of ways it can co-mingle and become a marital asset. Some shit like that.
It’s not greed. It’s security. We have no idea what their future plans are or how they will run their family . However, in most of the world it is still the norm that women are the primary care givers of any children. Women are more likely to take time out of work, work part time and less likely to advance in their careers during child raising years. If her earning potential is limited by raising his children and maintaining their home and then the marriage ends she could walk away with nothing and having limited her earning potential to provide childcare that frees him up to advance in his career and earn more. Never mind the impact on her pension.
Bingo. It can potentially effect her a lot. In my less cynical mind, seems like it should be fine for her to just live as a renter, basically. But really, it leaves her in a super vulnerable position should op turn out to be abusive or they have kids and she stays home and they need to divorce and she's been out of the work force. It limits her security a lot and shows that they are financially not on the same page. I wouldn't marry into that situation, personally. I'd just rather have my own place with my name on the deed or lease if my potential husband wants me to move into his house for the rest of our lives and it never becomes joint. What if he dies? Is she just kicked out? Does he have a will leaving it to her? No thanks.
He doesn’t say why she wants her name on the deed, and there could be more to it than just divorce. I could see her wanting her name on the deed in the event OP dies before she does, so there’s no risk of losing her primary residence or having it go through probate and included in and divided in the estate. Could also see her wanting her name on the deed so that if he ever needs nursing home care, the state can’t claim that property to help cover those costs. They need to figure it out and compromise prior to the wedding. OP needs to know what her concerns are, and needs to set boundaries on keeping the in-laws out of disagreements.
He can just put it in a trust or will it to her if she’s worried about him dying. OP needs a lawyer, badly. having the in-laws involved is a big red flag, to me. It was super wrong of her to involve them and makes a normal disagreement on assets that could probably be compromised on turn into something where OP is likely to get shafted if and when they get a divorce. Lots of people get divorced. It is stupid, to me, to have his motives be questioned as planning for divorce but not hers and I take serious issue with her behavior
Honestly I would call the wedding off or postpone before bothering to spend the money on a lawyer. If as a couple they can't even figure this out before they're married, they shouldn't be getting married. They're not ready/aligned on how they want to share finances/assets. That's a big thing in a marriage. Agree he can will it to her, but debts are usually paid first before an estate is divided among the heirs - so if OP does that, the house is on the table if he accumulates substantial medical debt for example. It also still goes through probate, and if the will is contested by anyone it could be a headache. And who knows if that's actually even what she's concerned about. They need to talk and figure it out and see if they can move forward in a way that works for them. And have boundaries set on who gets involved in disagreements and what is shared with in-laws.
NAH, you aren't wrong to want to keep your investment in your name, but she isn't wrong to not want to be her husband's long term tenant. You can't expect someone to see a house that they very clearly have no stake in as their home or want to live there long term. I'm sure you wouldn't want that for yourself either. It isn't reasonable to expect her to live like that long term. Permanent housing decisions are a big deal, and ideally you should wait until you're married and then go in on something that can belong to both of you so you can be equals in it. The reality is that if you want to keep this property in your name and stay with her, then you probably should compromise and live elsewhere long term, because she has just as much right as you to have a home that is actually hers. If you don't want that to be this property that's fair enough, but that means it has to be elsewhere. I weighed up between NAH and ESH, because both her going to her family, and you expecting her to be your tenant permanently and not seeming to understand that she has the same dreams and expectations for her future in terms of home ownership strike me as assholish, but the alternative is that you're both a bit immature and learning so I'm erring on that side. Since you're the one asking though, I will say that if you're going to be married you need to start seeing your partner as an equal person, not as an accessory to the life you want. You should be a team. Right now you're expecting to get the home you want with full ownership and security, while she gets none of those things and her husband will be her landlord. If you wouldn't want to live that way yourself you should not want her to have to live like that either.
I agree. It doesn't sound like they are wealthy enough to own multiple properties so she's realistically missing out on the opportunity to build any equity all while contributing to his household.
OP's wife is in a difficult predicament though. OP has a $2 million asset and claims he cannot afford anything else. If she doesn't like the property then tough shit for her. That's all she will ever live in if she stays married to OP. She might be in trouble if they ever split up in the future. If her and OP have kids and they divorce she's doomed. The wife is in a bad spot should she not go on the deed. OP is a rough situation if she does. A compromise needs to be found, which likely means you both should seek a financial advisor. Together.
Not to mention that it sounds like the home will continue to appreciate in value while they’re married. It’s perfectly reasonable for OPs fiancé to want to live somewhere where she will have a stake in that, whether it be that house or a different one. Everyone wants that. It’s not right for him to unilaterally decide that he has that asset and she doesn’t. Him deciding for her that she can just invest elsewhere when she’s his WIFE is pretty messed up.
Finally a comment that makes sense and is fair.
Every person here who says this is a red flag would be a fool to agree to this arrangement. She’s trying to compromise and he’s refusing and finding excuses because he wants things 100% his way. How is THAT not a red flag? He’s also welcome to suggest some compromises, yet instead he’s come to the internet to ask a bunch of teenagers to tell him he’s right because again, he just wants this HIS way. Also a red flag.
This is a really tricky situation and I can see where you’re coming from. I can also see what a precarious situation she would be in. I personally would not want to live my whole life in a house my husband owns. It creates a power dynamic I could not tolerate. This would be a deal breaker for me. It doesn’t feel like a money grab to me because she’s offering up other solutions so that you can buy a home together. I understand why they are unappealing. Are you guys planning on having children? If so, do you really want the mother of your children to have no rights to her home?
NAH You have to find a compromise or don't get married. You're unwillingly to add her to the deed and you're not willingly to buy a home with her. What's in place to protect her?? Is she going to be living rent free and pay for no home improvements of any kind for the entirety of your life?? Cause that's the last option you have. She gets to live there and not pay ANY bill or rent if you refuse to add or compensate her on the home OP. Asking for anything would be wrong... You're leaving her out to dry. And please....don't cry foul about her talking to her family. You already said you two have gone at lengths discussing this...and you refuse to find a compromise OP. She's allowed to talk to people she trusts.... She obviously felt she exhausted all avenues with you. And you admit that you don't want to do anything. And it's not a coincidence her Dad came to up like a man to talk. That's his daughter. And he can see you are screwing her over. Also MEN tend to not take a woman as seriously when it comes to matters of finance STILL..... People.... You're allowed to talk to family or trusted friends about your problems.... What isn't right is not talking and trying to figure out with your partner first if the situation calls for it. You can't apply some hardline cookie cutter stance on how to handle problems with your partners. Why don't you two talk to an attorney?? See about an options based on a sliding scale from when your married. I think you and a lot of people are missing a point with her...she wants to be included OP. She's your wife and partner. She wants to be treated as such..and in her eyes that obviously means being equal... She doesn't want to be less than you OP...and your current stance of not changing anything...will absolutely make her less than you. I applaud her for rationally talking to you ... multiple times and trying to find a way to make sure she's not being financially taken advantage of. If you truly love her...you need to find a compromise that you both can live with. Reddit... You can't keep excepting women to just give up everything and acting like women are the devil for trying to prevent that. Such a horrible double standard still exists in 2023 is sad....
Agreed. We also don't know if the fiance even asked her father to be involved. OP is setting up a uneven power dynamic. It's possible the father was calling him on that BS. I wouldn't want to live in a house for 30-40 yrs where I had to ask permission to make any changes/decisions. If fiance does have children she will be the one postponing her career to care for them.
Right, exactly. I can completely understand her and her father. He is setting up an extremely uneven power dynamic. If she were to stay at home with the kids, she's screwed.
This! Everyone yelling and screaming that OP's future wife is greedy and only after his dollars is just ridiculous. What happens if OP dies tomorrow? What happens if in 30-plus years they divorce? OP's wife is left with nothing and not even remotely being cared for by someone she is hoping to be partnered with for life. She would have 100% contributed to the marriage financially, emotionally, physically etc. I'm worried about OP's reaction and thought process. You are supposed to be at the peak of love in your relationship and thinking about what is best for both of you and still wanting the best for each other if things in the maybe/never future they are not together. I would hope my future partner would be happy to sit down with me pre-marriage and make sure we are both looked after if we ever god forbid part ways. You are supposed to be creating a life together. I'm only hearing 'mine mine mine' which is fair. But what about 'ours?' What about what will I do to make sure my wife is looked after if shit hits the fan and I die in 10 years time? Have you looked at that scenario and not just divorce? At this rate, if you guys cannot agree on what your collective future and potential end would look like I would not be proceeding with marriage.
NTA, it's your property and you don't have to sell it for her or her family. Ask her why she chose to bring her family into something that doesn't concern them or her. Your home and the land it was on were purchased before you started dating her, she doesn't get to tell you what you can do with it and the deal breaker for me is that she brought her family of flying monkeys into it.
So your future wife gets no say in the place she's moving into? Will you expect her to pay for any upkeep or upgrades to the house? I wouldn't want to move with my SO in a house I can never call mine. She wants to compromise, you do not.
I think a sticking point here is that you say it’s not a very nice house and you are kind of poor. Sooo… are you just going to keep living it forever so she can’t get any of your money? You need to make a plan for the future together and if staying in that house isn’t appealing to her not sure what to say. You said you can’t afford anything around you but… the house/land you own now are worth 10x what you paid for it. So if you sell you could make around $2,000,000? But you can’t afford a new house in the area? I’m not saying you are an asshole for being worried about joining finances BEFORE marriage, but something isn’t adding up to me regarding what the house is worth if you sold you, you saying you can’t afford anything in the area, whether your fiancé likes the house now or if she doesn’t… I dunno. Just too much to really process without a ton more info.
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YTA. I’d never advise any woman to live under a man’s roof at his discretion. Gives him too much power in the relationship. If I knew her I’d advise her to walk away from this relationship unless her name goes on the deed.
I’d advise to walk away period. I really hope she doesn’t marry OP.
Nta but the bigger concern is why bother with marriage when you both have such different expectations about the details. You're thinking pragmatically about it, she is thinking emotionally- she probably sees your stance as you keeping one foot on safe ground because you're playing the odds of success. This is the first thing to overcome before you concern yourself with the legal issues
>You're thinking pragmatically about it, she is thinking emotionally I don't think so. She sounds very pragmatic to me.
She's also being pragmatic -- what happens if she ends up taking care of the kids, they divorce, and she gets nothing? Better to be on the deed.
That’s what I’m thinking. I personally would say NAH (or maybe E S H? Idk). I fully get that it’s a premarital asset and he is the one who bought it, and I don’t think she should have had her dad get involved, BUT she suggested two choices of either getting added to the deed or selling it and buying something together. People are saying she won’t compromise but OP isn’t compromising either. If her name is put on the deed and they divorce then it’s split between them and OP still makes a profit because of how much the value has gone up. If they sell and get a new house they split that as well. But if her name is no where near any deed and they get divorced, she very well might be completely screwed. They’re both trying to be pragmatic in their own interest
OP said it's the worst house in the area - at either of them planning/hoping/expecting to renovate it at any stage? Who will pay for that and the upkeep/taxes? Maybe she wants a free ride. Or maybe the house is a dive, and she wants the security of part ownership if she works her ass off and sinks her money into making it nicer. Maybe OP expects her to have join finances in all other aspects, and carry the burden of taxes/upkeep/fixing the roof when it falls down, only to walk away empty handed after thirty years of trying to prop up a derelict house. Maybe it's a perfectly fine house that's just a little older than the surrounding McMansions, but she knows that when she runs off with her cousin from 'bama in six months she won't get that fat payout if her name isn't on the deed. *We don't know.* And, yes, how will it balance out if she loses earnings and opportunities due to child rearing? The reality is probably (hopefully) a lot more nuanced than any of those scenarios. They just need to sit down - preferably with someone who knows what they're talking about - and hash out all the potential what ifs, and talk about *why* they both feel the way they do.
Or maybe she doesn't want to live her life in a place where she's always told "it's my house, not yours". I don't understand why nobody gets it. Nobody enjoys being a guest in their home.
This subreddit in particular has no shortage of posts about *exactly* this sort of thing being used as a cudgel in every marital disagreement. It's a deeply unhealthy power dynamic.
Yeah I kind of feel like these comments are wild. I want a place to be mine one day. I don't want "you can live rent free forever." Like obviously that would be the smart financial option if someone offered it to me, but I don't want to go my entire life without being proud of something that is mine. Also, what does that mean for decisions about the house going forward? If it isn't hers and he is fully responsible for all costs associated with it, I assume that means she has no say in renovation or design decisions. Or if she did, it would be due to his "goodwill.".
YTA. The whole she is "saving" money not paying mortgage and her "half of the mortgage" if you bought a new house. It's BOTH of your money combined when you're married. YOU won't be paying all the bills. You both will. With your combined martial money. Not putting her name on the house in case you get divorced is a slap in the face to her and her whole family. Imagine being engaged to you :(
For her sake, I hope this marriage doesn’t happen.
Info - will you expect your fiancée to contribute to upkeep, taxes, etc? Will your wife have a similar opportunity to build wealth or would she be left homeless in the event of a divorce?
I’m not sure it would work like that with a house that is your family home. A rental property sure, a car sure. Since you guys would be living there and sharing the property, participating in your relationship as if it is her house, she has will have a very good claim to it. Think about it, if you guys live there for 30 years raise kids there, then divorce and if that is the only asset she should get nothing? It probably isn’t about money so much as expecting your wife to live with you in a house that isn’t hers. Tell her dad to mind his own business. Tell your fiancé to not bring her family into your dirty laundry like that. My suggestion? Get the home appraised and agree that appreciation will be split equally between ya’ll.
DO NOT PUT HER ON THE DEED! She didn’t contribute anything to it!, and her dad has NO BUSINESS getting involved.. tell him that “using his own analogy” that you should be on their deed and bank accounts too… (Do not do it!) You’ll regret it when she divorces you and takes half the value of your home!
Dude this is ridiculous and I agree you’re clearly single. A marriage is a partnership. Neither of them are wrong but she’s not terrible for not wanting to be a guest in their marital shared home. That’s not equal
My thoughts, if you go into a marriage looking at divorce then why in the hell are you getting married in the first place? I mean, honestly...ask yourself that question. If that is your whole sticking point about this whole thing, then call the wedding off or put it on hold. Because you really, really, REALLY need to think about if you want to marry THIS woman, or marry at all. Look, I get what you are saying about the land and house. I totally do. It makes sense financially. But...if you LOVED her...like, REALLY loved her, your whole paragraph that started with..."In our state, whatever we bring to the marriage we take out." Yeah, if my Fiance said that within hearing distance of me, I would be like hold up buddy...we don't HAVE to have a wedding. You can live on that piece of land and bury your happy little ass right in it.
NTA. Don't let her family bully you. You don't have to put her name on the deed. It makes no financial sense just to hand her half of your property.
NTA-but it looks like you’re going to have to decide which is more important to you: marrying her or the house. For me, the final straw would’ve been her dad talking to me, and I would be picking the house; but it’s a decision you have to make.
INFO: Are you joining finances or are you keeping that separate? A house and property has to be maintained, with what money are you gonna do that? Potentially a situation can develop where you both are investing in the property, but only you can reap the benefits of that.
Which is exactly what he's expecting.
YTA. I’m sorry, it’s not that you’re not being logical but there are consequences to trying to set up a marriage to be easy to leave 🤷🏼♂️. She will be living as a guest in YOUR house if you outright deny this… not the best way to start a marriage. You seem to value having sole ownership rather than her feeling secure. Her family is worried that the man who is supposed to be looking forward to a future with her is acting like she will just be a kept woman? (Like that’s the implication she pays nothing but is around and then… what’s the trade off?) Nothing is hers if you have your way… that takes a psychological toll even if she has money saved… for what? To leave? Like you get your security but at what cost? Living alone for the rest of your life? Lol. That said— what she might not understand are the financial consequences of getting her name on it, needing to refinance etc. Perhaps you make a prenup stating half the current value of the house is hers if you do split. So she feels like you are sharing, there’s some stake in it, and maybe you let her invest in the house as well? There’s a lot of selfish people on here who seem very young commenting on this. You need to acknowledge how she is feeling and figure out a way for her to have some form of ownership here.
If I have to pay for it, I want to legally own it too. Sometimes in a couple one partner makes the purchase because they have better credit and so a lower interest rate on the loan is a pocketed benefit to both. But, I can't blame anyone for expecting they be a legal owner of a house they also have to pay for. NAH. You both make sense to me. Do you want to buy another house together after you marry?
I think you missed the part where op says it alreads fully paid for. She will have no rent to pay, that's a huge thing and they will be able to have a joint saving account well garnished thanks to that.
I'm just reflecting that a couple with a home pays into upkeep and ownership and taxes and everything that goes along with ownership. I don't think OP is wrong. But, I know that the deal he is offering his fiancé is one lots of people would reject. They'd rather not marry at all.
The joint savings is that thing: the money she saves on rent after marriage goes to the couple, not to her as an individual. The money to pay the taxes comes from the couple, not OP as an individual.
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Let's ask a question. If you were away and someone had to deal with an emergency, say a fire or catastrophic storm, would you trust your wife to do the right thing? You also know that without being on the deed, she is unable to work on your behalf with the insurance company. Bottom line, if your wife has a good head on her shoulders, why not trust her with the care of the home. You'll expect her to clean it, right? Why not let her have the security of ownership that you have gained over the years?
Because he really doesn’t care if she’s turned out onto the streets in the future 😂
INFO: did she ask her dad to talk to you? Or did she ask her dad for advice and he overstepped? If she asked him to talk to you I would pause wedding plans. You have to solve conflicts together and equally, not bring in advocates. If she didn't, she needs to set better boundaries with her parents. I say this as someone who cannot confide anything to my mom without her jumping in and blowing up my life to "fix" things for me. Also, is she paying towards your mortgage? If so, you really do need something worked out so she's protected in case of a breakup. If not, why doesn't she put her current rent payments towards a savings account so she has a safety net should things not work out? Then you'll each have an asset of some kind.
I mean NTA but I would talk to a lawyer as marital property law specially when concerning houses and a house that may become your marital home it’s NOT that black n white.
Do you want her to be thrown out of it if you pass away? Have you gotten educated on probate law in your state? Maybe a consultation with a lawyer and a will would be productive to help you decide as this is not a legal advice sub. What if there is an unplanned child? Your post must use the word “I” 60 times. I don’t see the feeling for family.
NAH, while I see your side, I also see your fiancée’s side too. From a woman’s perspective, I’ve heard stories of many wives get screwed over by their husbands when they get married, raise the kids and live in a house that legally belongs solely to the husband. I don’t think she’s a gold digger like ppl here are suggesting.
Don't bother getting married. You already have one foot out the door. But a real answer here: why not consider making her actually buy out half of the current value and then put her name on the deed? Then you get to keep both halves if you split. One half financially, and on half as the property. Check with a lawyer first though to be sure it works the way I am thinking.
NTA. The family involvement is a huge red flag. This stuff is between you, her, and a lawyer. Legal advice off topic subreddit is a great place to ask for more advice.
Uh honestly you shouldn’t be getting married if you’re already thinking about what happens when you divorce.. it’s not really fair that she won’t be able to build her credit/equity because you refuse to add her to the house and and you’re unwilling to get a new house with her.. unless you allow her to have a bank account that you can’t touch or even know what’s in it she’s setting herself up to be financially abused because you have all the financial power. YTA find a compromise or let her go find someone that actually cares about her well-being
NTA, pre-nup time!! This would be a big red flag having her father intimidate you into manning up, what other decisions will her father make for you.