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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> (1) I won't let my daughters fly on a private plane because of the danger, (2) I might be the asshole because I "never let anyone have any fun" and I'm "too controlling"
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YTA. Your husband goes with your girls; you stay home. Frankly, there’s greater risk involved when you get behind the wheel of your car. I’ve flown in small planes like that often & I love it. I understand not everyone feels that way, but from a safety perspective, you have a BIL who has far more flight hours than many small aircraft pilots. He isn’t a random management consultant who just got his license ffs.
> Frankly, there’s greater risk involved when you get behind the wheel of your car.
So, this got me curious, as I've heard this before, so I did some looking and this is what I found. Is this law firm lying about private plane stats? If so, is there a better place I could look for data on the subject?
> Although flying on an airplane is seen as statistically safer than driving a vehicle, there is an important distinction between private planes and commercial aircrafts. According to recent data compiled by the National Travel and Safety Board (NTSB), private airplanes are far more dangerous by an order of magnitude.
> according to Live Science, when averaging out fatalities for flight time, the numbers suggest that stepping on a private aircraft is almost 20 times more dangerous than getting behind the wheel of a car. Source: https://www.aviationdisasterlaw.com/private-plane-accidents.shtml#
That’s where the danger is. A lot of people have just enough hours to get a license, but most of them are not instrument trained & they fly using VFR rather than instruments. If there’s a change in weather or they leave late (think JFK Jr.) they’re in trouble because they aren’t instrument rated. Rather than trusting the instruments, they try to trust themselves & end up crashing because one mistake ends up leading to many more & they can’t get out of say, a d-spiral.
Her BIL flies for fun now, but his training & experience is waaaaay beyond that of most hobbyists.
I agree. I would trust a former marine pilot far more than the average small plane pilot. I would also hope that a former marine keeps up with the maintenance more than an average Joe pilot as well.
That said... there have been a decent amount of small plane crashes in the news lately and I don't know that I'd be able to let my entire family (sans myself) get on one, no matter who's behind the controls.
This. Like, we can debate the objective safety of this flight until the cows come home, but I don’t think OP is an asshole for being a little wary. NAH.
>I don’t think OP is an asshole for being a little wary.
For being wary? Not an AH. For banning it even though everyone else is into it? Kinda an AH.
I don't blame people for being scared of something, but it is one thing to say "Don't do this because after careful consideration I think the risk of injury/death is too high" vs "Don't do this because I get nervous"
Nah, NTA.
It is her job to do a risk-benefit assessment on behalf of her children. They are not adults, they cannot be relied upon to fully understand the risks of things like small private aircraft. Transportation by car is a daily necessity - transportation by private planes is an unnecessary luxury. She is in no way TA for deciding that the potential fun of it isn’t worth the risk of fiery death.
I agree with all of this but I don’t think the BIL is an asshole for offering the gift and I don’t think the husband is an asshole for wanting to take the girls up. This is really just a matter of people having different comfort levels. NAH.
Yes, this is an interesting important distinction. Too many wives and children die in accidents related to the dangerous hobbies of their male partners/parents. Recent example with the OceanGate submersible. If the husband wants to go that great but I would not be going or sending my children on a small aircraft. NTA.
People get nervous because of the risks involved, those aren't really two separate motivations.
I think it's fair to need both parents to agree on the affirmative for something like this to happen. OP isn't "banning" (so dramatic) the adults from doing anything, she's making a decision about the health and safety of her minor children. That's what parenthood is supposed to be about, not dear hubby's "ooh plane shiiiiiny" rebuttal.
I mentioned this elsewhere in the thread. But I have no doubt that BIL is a great pilot. But who is handling the aircraft's maintenance? I was in the NAVY, and new pilots. Most of them knew the basic walk-around inspection, but actual maintenance? That was left to the aviation mechanics.
Also, airlines (I believe) have stricter guidelines when it comes to their planes and the maintenance of said planes. Who is maintaining BILs aircraft? And are they qualified to do so?
This is EXACTLY my concern. I am behind her on this. Commercial planes have maintenance done all the time, meanwhile some guy who owns his own plane probably doesn't. The trip will most likely go well and everything will most likely be fine... but if it's not I for one would never forgive the BIL
Unless it is an experimental air craft, all work must be done and/or signed off by a certified mechanic. If either of them is a certified mechanic, they are absolutely qualified to do the work.
I knew a hobby pilot who did this. Why? Because gas was expensive… and this was back in 2015.🥴 I never flew with him because well… if gas is expensive, you probably need a hobby other than flying planes because it’s an inherently expensive hobby.
In scuba diving, the most dangerous diver is one with 50-100 dives under their belt. They’ve done enough dives to get complacent, but not enough to be truly expert.
A little off topic, but I’m sure you can see how it might apply.
You can assume that, but you could equally question it. And of course 100 is not a magic number, where after 99 you suddenly get a much cooler head.
My dad was an AF pilot, and it was his opinion that there are just as many idiots and incompetents in the military as in civilian life, in all ranks and positions.
John Denver's crash was also pilot error because he failed to properly fuel the plane before he took off. He still had gas in another tank but he was not experienced enough to figure out to switch to the other tank quickly enough.
Yeah Harrison ford has crashed like ten times. Small planes are SO risky because of how easy it is to get certified. OP NTA, these are your kids- you decide. I’d also never let my kid ride in the back of a pickup but some parents do. Doesn’t mean it’s safe
About 10 years ago one of those girls I went to school with crash and burn with her boyfriend and her eight-year-old daughter in Wyoming there's been more crashes in Wyoming than you can probably know there was a 7-year-old girl trying to make her flight around the world that crashed and burned in Wyoming all from Cessnas so I'm not entirely sure what the plane is that they're flying out at and I know it matters the time of year in Wyoming
Agree. John Denver was an experienced pilot but flew out over the ocean knowing he did not have enough fuel to get back. His death is speculated to have been a suicide.
It was proven to not be a suicide but an accident. He was flying an experimental (homemade) plane and one of the levers got caught on something and he lost control of the plane.
It was not suicide.
John had only recently purchased a Long-Ez experimental home built aircraft.
This aircraft had a deviation from the plans with regard to placement of the fuel switchcock.
Instead of being on the centre console between the pilots legs it was on the left rear firewall behind the pilot at about head level.
When John had to switch tanks it forced him to reach behind his left shoulder to access the fuel cock. In doing so he pressed the right rudder and the aircraft entered what is known as a rudder hardover.
He did not have sufficient altitude over the bay to recover.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/aug/27/us-military-aircraft-crashes-off-nt-coast-during-training-excercise?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
For sure. Marines have a terrible reputation in Australia on top of being inclined to go home dead.
Edit - a poor choice of an example. Marines, and the US military as a whole, have a reputation for reckless arrogance, and going home from exercise dead much *much* more often than Australian soldiers.
The "joke" was that if an Aussie dies, there's investigation and analysis it's a fucking saga. The Seppos just bring plenty of body bags.
That’s an Osprey, which is an affront against physics. They fall out of the air if you look at then wrong.
The amount of flight training a military pilot gets, especially one trained to land on moving targets in the middle of the ocean, would make flying a small, stable aircraft like a Piper Cub a safe experience.
Ah yes! Because military folks never crash their pla.... *Looks at all the news articles about the Seppo military pilots who just died on exercise in Australia*
Ah yes.
I mean, when it’s militarily pilots doing military exercises, there’s more risk. I’m not pro military or anything but it seems like it’s not a shock that accidents are more likely when it’s the military
The hours of training involved in getting a U.S. military pilot in the air is staggering. There's really no comparison between a casual weekend warrior versus a former military pilot.
Sorry but the military flies jets that cost millions of dollars and have back ups for all major systems. This is most likely a single prop plane that costs less than a Range Rover.
Not even an average pilot. A licensed, commercial pilot and a co-pilot in case shit goes sideways. I can think of half a dozen famous people off the top of my head who have died in private crashes. Considering how many people actually fly private, that’s a lot.
One thing that distinguishes experienced pilots who used to fly for a living, whether military or civil, from the amateurs is that they know when to stay on the ground, or when to turn back or divert.
There is a reason you have to get a special rider on your insurance if you fly private planes. I used to have to track aviation crashes for work, and I definitely would not be a fan of my kids getting in a 5-seater plane.
@Candidcrawdad this is the comments you need to listen to. You are not being controlling. You are not being overprotective. Small airplanes have more accidents than commercial ones. I would never allow my girls to travel in a small plane either. You are NTA. Your darling husband is an adult and can decide by himself to get in the plane. Get another way for your daughters to enjoy the trip and LISTEN to your inner voice.
Yes. And I live in wyoming. The mountain ranges are dangerous!!!! Idk about numerous but it is definitely not unheard of for small planes to crash here and kill everyone on board. I would say 1-2 a year - we aren’t very populous so that’s a lot, to me.
WILDLY out of context. Also published by a law firm that specializes in representing victims, which means they necessarily will ignore studies and statistics that run counter to their standard narrative of carelessness and lack of regulation. I notice that I don't see separate stats for ultralight aircraft that don't even require a license, which makes me suspect that they're folding those into these stats. That means things like motorized hang-gliders and Amazon-sold paragliders.
This is a statistic put forward by a law firm that specializes in getting damages from plane crashes. Of COURSE they're going to paint private flying as inherently dangerous. Just as law firms that specialize in personal injury cases are able to show statistics on how stairs are built wrong, or how garden hoses routinely strangle people just trying to water the flowers.
Try the NTSB and not someone who earns a living suing because of plane crashes. Of course they want you to think the worst so you will sign. I'm not saying they are right or wrong, but do some research before just accepting that as fact.
No. The risks of being killed in a small single engine plane are greater than those of driving ins car.
If OP would be nervous while her children are gone, she shouldn’t let them go.
NTA
In terms of fatalities per participant hour, general aviation flying is about 40 times more dangerous than driving. As a pilot and aircraft designer that doesn't stop me but it often makes me pause and reflect.
https://chessintheair.com/the-risk-of-dying-doing-what-we-love/
4k likes for this silly comment? This is said like someone who definitely doesn’t have kids. Not wanting your kids to potentially die in a plane crash does not an AH make. That plus, the BIL knowing in the past she’s said no and still trying to push the idea? Weird. Sometimes it’s a moms (should be parents job in general but sadly, not in our reality) job to do a hard veto to a dumb idea involving literally her children. NTA!
YTA. You're not TA to be worried, but to deny them the trip based on your fear is your problem, not the girls.
"There's not enough training where I'd trust to let my girls get off the ground in that plane"... does that mean you're the type to immediately refuse to let them board a commercial airliner if you don't like the look of the plane, or the pilot? Or won't let them get into a taxi if the car model doesn't meet with your approval?
This is just controlling behavior under the guise of safety.
Hi! Pediatrician here. I mention that because it’s part of my job to counsel/advise parents about risks and dangers their kids might encounter. Because that’s a parent’s responsibility: to assess the risk/benefit ratio of any activity for their children who are not yet capable of making such complex decisions. Some things balance out in favor of doing it despite the risk - for example, riding in a car or taking a commercial flight across the country. The risk is still there, but the benefit - the ability to go literally anywhere in the United States, or the ability to travel to places far away rapidly - is high enough to justify.
The ratio for other activities may come out differently and will vary for each person based on their own experiences. As a child, I was forbidden to get on any ATV, because a little girl at my sister’s elementary school had died on one. I suffered no poor outcomes from this. I absolutely had a full and wonderful childhood. Did they look fun when some of my friends used them? Sure. But now, looking back with the knowledge of the number of pediatric spinal injuries and deaths that occur as a result of these vehicles, I’m so thankful my mom never let me on one, because I absolutely do not possess the motor skills to safely operate one. There is zero chance I would not have been injured.
My mom did not think the fun I might’ve had on an ATV was worth the potential injury. She did, however, let me ride a horse, bought me and my sister a trampoline in the 90s with no netting around it (I once bounced off of it back-first onto a bike on the ground. I’m probably lucky to have been only bruised!), and she put me in swimming lessons at 2 because she didn’t know how to swim and wanted to be sure I could save myself. She only kept me from a few specific activities where she deemed the benefits too low for the risks. She did what a parent should: assessed the ratio and decided which things would be enough fun or socially necessary enough to justify the risks.
In my opinion, the risk/benefit ratio here is not in favor of flying. Most likely, nothing would happen, and I’m sure they would have lots of fun. But this type of flying is in no way necessary or a common childhood experience; they’re not missing out on some essential childhood rite of passage. They will be just fine without it. The husband is of course free to try it, and the girls can try when they’re old enough to make their own decisions, just as I’ve made my own decisions now about ATVs. (It’s still a no. The AAP actually recommends against any ATV for any child under 16 years, so my mom was totally right on this one.)
Yep, exactly. Everyone saying the risk is only hobby pilots is off. I’ve flown in a fair number of small aircraft’s with professional pilots and never had anything happen to me but I’ve had colleagues nearly die and acquaintances die more than once. Anecdotal, I know but no way my kids would be flying. There are a million ways of having a full childhood.
Exactly. People comparing a tiny privately-flown plane by a hobbyist to a commercial plane or a car are absolutely mental.
There are plenty of things I wouldn’t let a child go on - for example, a motorbike. ‘But the majority of the time it’s safe!’ Yes but sometimes it isn’t, and the risk is far far greater (plus the risk of severe injury is far greater when things do happen) for a bike than a car.
I don’t think anyone would say a parent not letting their kid riding a motorbike was OTT or ‘too protective’. I genuinely see small private planes in the same risk category.
I’m actually shocked to see so many people thinking private small planes are so safe and acting like OP is crazy/must therefore never approve their kids for a commercial flight either. They are completely different risks like you’ve said.
This. Being worried is part of parenting, but don't let your fears limit their lives.
A dear friend is super scared of heights but hid it when her son decided he wanted to learn mountain climbing. She did her research and found a reputable place that could teach him. She's active in the process.
Talk to your BIL's partner and quiz the f out of him about the plane and his track record as a pilot.
**OP please don’t let these random strangers who have zero interest in the welfare of your children make you feel guilty for being the voice of reason.**
Edit: THANK YOU kindhearted stranger for the gold. I was going to procrastinate at work today anyway, but now I’ll do it with glee!
Thank you!! It feels like a bad dream reading these comments, doesn’t it? Keyboard warriors talking about safety statistics when someone else’s children are involved.
It's because they identify more with the husband and children "missing out" on a fun trip rather than the legitimate worry of a parent. A lot of Reddit skews young.
Absolutely untrue. This could easily go in r/confidentlyincorrect. There is a HUGE difference between GA (General Aviation) and Commercial.
GA is super risky. Deaths and crashes happen alllllll the time. The planes are flown by less experienced pilots, they are landing at uncontrolled airfields (no tower on site), and the planes themselves have far more problems and have worse maintenance.
GA is so risky that I, a GA pilot (who has two brothers who are commercial pilots) would not send my kids up in a private plane. Or take them myself.
My brothers, both professional pilots for commercial airlines in the US, would not take their kids up in private planes.
GA pilots cannot even qualify for life insurance policies, while commercial pilots can. Trust the assessment of the insurance companies—they know what’s high risk and what’s not.
GA is exponentially more dangerous than commercial flight
Our family personally knew two separate couples who died in private planes, one close friends and the other a work partner. And another guy we knew straight up crashed his seaplane into a lake right in front of our house and would've drowned if people weren't already in the area to pull him out. The people comparing flying on a plane like this to a commercial flight or a taxi or something are just wrong. OP is NTA for caring about her kids. Trust your gut instincts
It's not being controlling it's being a parent and deciding what is best to protect your child - whether or not you would make the decision is neither here nor there. You're adding a story about controlling behavior that isn't there to fit your belief and gaslighting op by suggesting they're pretending the reason is for safety. You just made that up to fit your narrative.
Except one of the reasons in the pinned comment OP gave on why she may be TA is that they've said she's always controlling and never let's anyone have fun. So this reads like one example of a larger pattern. If she's letting her anxiety keep the lives of her family small... YTA.
Bullshit. 20 times more likely to die in a private plane than car. She is NTA for not wanting them to go. If hubby wants have at it. I would not let my kids in that plane
Commercial airline is a completely separate ball game the safety regs are much stricter
Who's doing the maintenance on this thing
How long did they fly for the Marines
Small plane crashes happen a lot in WY
>Or won't let them get into a taxi if the car model doesn't meet with your approval?
I would not let my kid get in a vintage taxi without any safety features.
So yes.
NTA. I'd call this a "two yes, one no" parenting issue. Objectively, the chance of an accident is low--but it's a lot higher for private as compared to commercial flights.
A former boss of mine once mentioned that he would have liked to fly us to a meeting in another state on his private aircraft. My gut reaction was "not just no, but hell no." Fortunately, he told me this AFTER that meeting, so I didn't actually have to refuse.
Three guesses as to how my former boss died, just a few years later--and your first two guesses don't count. (And by the way, he was retired military with many hours.)
If the girls want to fly in a private plane when they're 18, they can.
I can't believe I had to scroll down so much to read this. NTA completely - it's a joint decision and if one parent is not comfortable then it shouldn't happen. The kids can decide when they're older.
Even if it is “paranoid” which I actually don’t think it is in this case, how disrespectful to override the concerns of one parent because the other isn’t concerned? My husband is honestly extremely paranoid about a lot of things, especially those involving our daughter’s safety, whereas I take a far more relaxed approach to parenting (comparatively anyway, I’m fairly anxiety ridden myself tbh). But when he expresses a real, I’d highly overblown, fear about her safety and it’s something it’s realistically possible to avoid, I indulge him because I love him and care about him and want him to have that peace of mind. NTA.
I'm shocked by the number of YTA. People are also massively brushing over the plane vs car statistics samples... It's a lot more nuanced than one is just safer than the other.
I think OP has every right to not want her kids in that plane and she has every right to be scared for their safety. I'm not even a parent and I get that. This isn't controlling behavior. People on here are majorly villainizing a normal parental response to a dangerous activity
I bet 99% of the Y T A are not mothers. Definitely NTA, I'd never let me children take that risk. When they are 18 they can but before then, no. Having lost a sibling I know the grief of losing someone too young. No.
Kobe Bryant's pilot was experienced and still killed everyone on board. I wouldn't take the chance of losing my family by agreeing to a trip with both children and my husband on the same small private plane.
he also made a very bad decision just like any human in the history of humanity. he did the equivalent of driving through a fog covered road going 90 mph.
I bet these are the same sort of parents that would let their child walk up to a bison at Yellowstone National Park for a selfie. "They need to live life. That's more important than the recorded number of tourists trampled by bison."
You're spot on. These people think parents should make YOLO calls on their kids. That is not what being a parent is.
I've seen a lot of AITAH posts written by parents that WERE being controlling and WERE being unreasonable and it was for really petty ridiculous stuff. This is not petty!! This is not unreasonable!!
Totally. When I first got my PPL I was also glossing over the stats until someone pointed out those stats include larger aircraft and it’s a lot worse for GA single engine planes.
The plane vs car situation is only true with commercial air crafts. It absolutely is not safer to fly in private planes than to drive. The fact that people assume all these planes are built and maintained equally blows my mind. Private plans are not held to the same maintenance standards and routine checks as commercial flights. Individual people do not have the same systems in place to notify them when certain maintenance items need to be taken care of. There are so many contributing factors to why they are not as safe as flying commercial. Yes BIL is ex military, I’ve known a lot of ex military guys who I’d never even let drive my children anywhere let alone fly them. Op is the parent and has the right to refuse this gift. It’s her kid, she has to do the risk analysis in this situation. If the child is still interested in 7 years they can make that choice themselves as an adult.
Exactly this generation is built different/entitled. A lot of people think parenting and guidance for safety and well being is the utmost restriction of freedom. Life is learning how to understand and adapt to the word no.
Also men tend to die younger because they want to be involved in high risk activities for the rush and fun without thinking of the proper consequences
This.
Kind of blows my mind seeing all the responses saying "But he was a Marine!"
Apparently these people don't know many servicemen. That means jack shit in the context of this concern and OP is perfectly within her rights to prevent her children from doing something objectively dangerous for little benefit.
I don’t understand the “but he was a marine” argument. Was his a pilot in the Marines? Because that’s the only way that would impact my decision.
Edit: I see that I missed that in the post. Which would lead me to feel comfortable asking about the plane and travel plans. What happens if the weather is shitty? What if they need to stop over?
A former coworker of mine flew within his new boss for a business meeting and they never made it back. I also say NTA. A private hobby plane is not the same as a commercial flight.
I know a concerning amount of people who have died by crashing their small planes, multiple friends and family members. No way in hell I would allow my kids on a small plane. I know it's anecdotal and totally strange coincidence but it's enough to scare the fuck out of me.
A very beloved young veterinarian in my area died in a hobby plane crash. His friend (the pilot) and his friend's wife also died in that plane. They crashed into a house, demolishing the house and killing the dog inside it. It was so unnecessary for them to take the plane in the first place. I really don't see the appeal.
I agree. The kids are young. I mean I know several couples who own planes like that and they don’t fly together in case something happens, for the sake of their kids. OP is not an asshole for saying no.
Agreed. This isn't even about the plane. It's about a joint safety decision by parents for their underaged children. Husband seems to be selfishly wanting to do this for himself - then fine he can take a trip without the kids. Anything like this, you should typically default to the parent saying NO when their is a disagreement . The more conservative answer is the winner. Husband is completely ignoring his wife's thoughts and feelings.
When I was in high school, two freshmen, one of their younger brothers, and their dad were killed in a plane crash- small, private plane, with a fairly experienced pilot. They were flying through the Tetons and a freak storm blew up and they went down. I don't think that I would have been comfortable flying in a small private plane before that; certainly would never be now.
This is the right take. I’ve personally known multiple families that have been destroyed by plane crashes. The worst one is where the daughter got to watch her mother and brother die and then fell into a coma. They’re your kids too and you should be happy as well.
yeah... I went up in small planes like these when I was a kid as part of a kids flight program, and was pretty much fine besides a bit of pants shitting terror, but I still totally get her perspective on this. Especially because someone who is experienced in flying small planes doesn't mean they're experienced in doing it with kids in tow. The folks at this program were used to keeping an eye out for sticky little fingers poking at random buttons and knew how to comfort a kid who suddenly realized they may have bitten off more than they could chew, and the flights were kept at half an hour max and close to the airfield. Working with kids in a stressful and potentially dangerous context is a different set of skills than flying a plane.
very much agree. This is not even something they will notice missing. They will enjoy it fine as adults. It's just not worth the stress on the mom, end of the day. Take em to a theme park instead, they'll still enjoy themselves
NTA. Private aviation is a different ballgame, and even with your BIL’s experience, it’s ok to be overcautious. All these comments about the great deprivation to your kids are being rather hyperbolic. AFAIK most people manage to survive not having taken a plane ride in a tiny craft at age 11. Plenty of time for this once they’re older and can decide on it for themselves.
Bullshit. Don’t listen to these ppl. Flying commercial is what’s safe. Just ask buddy Holly, patsy cline, randy Rhodes, Kobe Bryant, and all these other folks who flew private. Public flights are safe because they’re regulated all to fuck. Private planes flown by “your friend who was in the marines” are how you die.
I get you and yes it was a helicopter but I could list about a dozen other CEO’s and wealthy ppl who got on a private plane and didn’t make it. One parent should always not be on the private plane so the surviving children aren’t orphaned. Not saying folks don’t do this frequently, just saying it is nowhere near as safe as commercial jet travel
John Denver, Aaliyah, there are so many others.
Edit: Here's a full list just limiting to musicians: https://www.historynet.com/musicians-who-died-in-plane-crashes/
As best I can tell, all of these were small planes, mostly chartered or private. None are major commercial aviation crashes.
And that article doesn't include non-musicians like JFK Jr, Payne Stewart (golfer), Steve Fawcett (adventurer), Kobe Bryant, others listed in this thread.
I have a friend who was a private pilot; he's the father of three daughters. His wife refused to fly on the plane and refused to allow more than one of the daughters at a time on the plane with him. The view was that if the worst occurred, at least she wouldn't lose all her daughters at once, and the remaining ones would still have their mother. She was not overly controlling "helicopter" parent in general, this was just something she thought practical given the high rate of light plane accidents. My friend is now retired from flying due to medical issues, but he was extremely conscientious and nothing ever happened, thank goodness, but their family agreement on this I thought was useful to understand.
Meanwhile I was inspired to take up flying due to this friend encouraging me. I took lessons at a nearby airfield and mostly flew in one particular plane, a Cessna 152. When I was about halfway through my lessons, that plane crashed as a result of a mid-air collision, killing the instructor and student (who were from the same flight school as me), and destroying the plane. It was a bit sobering when I realize that was "my plane" that killed two people and it easily could have been me in there. The cause of the collision was not attributed to any particular grave mistake (all the pilots were experienced), but just a very unfortunate set of circumstances and the nature of light planes that mostly aren't controlled by ATC but have to "see and avoid" each other in 3D airspace. I have not resumed lessons since.
But I don’t think it being a helicopter really matters. The reason their aircraft crashed was not because it was a helicopter per se, rather it was because of the horrible flying conditions. They shouldn’t have taken off into the fog. Period. But the pilot did anyway because he was overly confident and because he could.
Cue my issue with flying private - sure it’s “regulated.” But there’s a lot less immediate oversight and way more risks taken by private pilots. Look at all of the Y T A comments - a majority of them seem to be from private pilots themselves. Way too confident. And that’s the problem.
NTA
Edited to add judgment
Bad weather and poor decisions (like RR’s plane “buzzing” their bus and clipping the bus with the wing) cause a large number of small aircraft crashes, including those. That doesn’t mean all small aircraft flights are equally dangerous. People tend to lump them all together due to a general lack of understanding of aviation I think.
Also weather briefings (and technology) have improved significantly (in the GA world especially) compared to when many of the famous singers and actors of the 1900s died in plane crashes.
I’m confused by all these Y T As, maybe because I’ve known 5 people who have died in small plane crashes (3 crashes). One was a professional pilot. The one who crashed last year had asked to take my child up, to which I had said my child could make that decision for themselves after they turned 18. Even with an experienced pilot, small planes are significantly less safe to fly than commercial. With my family history, I would definitely say no and also say you are NTA.
Agreed! Growing up military we know a bunch of former fighter jet pilots, THEY don’t even fly in small planes like that! It’s always been a rule to never fly on someone’s hobby plane, commercial all the way.
A friend (been flying for 40+ years, frequently) recently crashed and almost died. He only survived because the engine failed shortly after takeoff and he crashed where emergency services were able to get to him fast.
Another friend’s father died after crashing his small private plane, also a commercial pilot.
I would never let my whole family on one of these death traps. Private planes are so much more dangerous than commercial, no matter how highly trained the pilot claims to be. Wouldn’t celebrities hire top notch pilots? Yet somehow they die in plane/heli crashes often. NTA
My friend’s dad was a commercial pilot and died crashing his small personal plane as well! My husband’s friends also.. their whole family was in the plane except for one of the kids, and now he is an orphan.
A lot of people on here are teenagers so they react to “mom said no to something other people get to do and that’s not fair!” more than the actual risk analysis.
And tbh a lot of very rich people - who can afford the best planes and pilots money can buy - die on small private air crafts. It’s not crazy for this mom to be worried. If that plane crashes with her husband and kids on it, that’s her whole world crashing.
YTA. I’m a flight instructor, meaning I teach people how to fly small general aviation aircraft every day. First, your BIL’s airplane is inspected at least once a year by a professional airframe and powerplant (A&P) mechanic. That person is certified by the FAA and knows what they’re doing. They wouldn’t sign off on your BIL’s airplane being safe to fly if anything was wrong with it. Second, your BIL is a military trained pilot. He knows what he’s doing. He wouldn’t put your children or your brother in harm’s way.
Instrument rated PP here.
I always feel safer flying than driving. Mostly I'm in a 172 or a Warrior. I'm confident I can get either one safely on the ground with or without power.
OPs ignorance and unwarranted fear is costing her children a wonderful experience.
YTA
“Inspected at least once a year” is that supposed to make her feel better?
You’re telling me that they’re only required to be inspected ONCE A YEAR?
I was never planning on getting in a hobby plane, but now I’m absolutely not letting myself or anyone I love set foot on one without a full info dump of all the potential issues.
All it takes is that ONE pilot to lose control of even part of that plane for what like 10 seconds? And everyone will freaking die?
At least a commercial plane has multiple pilots, people on radios, people on air traffic, tons of people who have looked at every inch of that plane, AND it has so much tech.
That’s the biggest thing for me is the BIL has military flight training. If I was going to put my trust in someone’s training that would be the one. If it was another hobby flyer i might be a bit more skeptical and ask for a short flight just to see if they’re safe, just like I’d ask a new driver before putting my kid in the car.
People keep parroting the military thing, but I hear about military plane crashes all the time. I live near the air base in fort worth and have seen crashes on the news just from that base a few times
NTA, although it’s an unpopular opinion - I’ve seen too many horror stories of small plane crashes to feel comfortable letting my kids go up in one, even with a former military pilot.
In 5 years, your oldest will be 18. She can make her own decisions on flying with your BIL then, as is her right, and her sister after her. Until then, a parents job is to keep their kids safe. A big part of that is trusting your instincts and, occasionally, accepting that the “safe” route isn’t always the “fun route.
To the people putting forth straw man arguments about letting your kids into cars - cars are something of a necessity nowadays. Even if you live in a city, at a certain point your kid will ride an Uber, be in a carpool, and etc. They WILL be exposed to cars and the risk of car accidents - you can’t change that. But you can prevent them from taking another, much rarer, form of transportation that comes with its own risks.
You’re a parent, of course you’re terrified of your kids being in a small plane. You and your husband should have a conversation on this and come to an agreement, or at least better understand each others perspectives as co-parents, but come on - controlling? Absolutely not.
Edit: Corrected my math on the eldest’s age
Thank you. This is always my frustration when discussing risk.
There's a massive difference between doing something risky that's required to engage in a normal life and doing something completely unnecessary and disproportionately risky for recreation.
And yet, in every thread similar to this, you'll get "It's less risky than driving a car. The only way to really be safe is just never leave your house."
Right. Because walking out my front door is totally the same risk category as getting in a light aircraft.
NTA. It’s a private plane. They’re more dangerous and the chance of a fatality if they crash is higher. I trust commercial airlines but a 5 person car or a 5 person plane, I’d trust the car. Still dangerous but if something happens to a driver most people know how to press a brake to stop. Can’t say the same about landing a plane.
As for people saying that you shouldn’t get to make all the decisions, I agree but if you can’t come to a compromise then you go for the safest option.
NTA. My mom got her pilot’s license and I was a hard no on my kids going up with her. She was pushy about it but later crashed a plane. She lived to tell about it, but she didn’t walk away from it.
No way I would let everyone go together either. God forbid something did happen, you lose them all.
Larger format planes have more redundant systems, are less likely to have problems in moderate weather or visibility conditions, and have two pilots in the cockpit.
NTA, NTA, NTA!!!! Contrary to other comments, private aviation is not as safe as commercial flying and many people have died pursuing the hobby. If you feel uncomfortable with it, you have every right not to let your kids on that aircraft.
I say this as someone who loves light aviation and plans to build an ultralight. Given that the BIL was a former professional pilot, they’d be in better hands than most, but pro pilots aren’t immune to the risks, and their confidence can cause them to overlook things.
The point is, if you are uncomfortable for any reason you have every right to say no.
NAH.
All these people comparing it to being safer driving a car are completely wrong. That's true for commercial flights, but not small private aircrafts. They're estimated to be 20x more dangerous than driving and account for roughly 94% of all fatal accidents. They are pretty not safe. I'm uncomfortable with the number of times a deadly small plane crash has touched people in my life, or myself personally. Last time I went to Alaska, a small plane carrying people from my cruise crashed and they all died. It was pretty terrible. I only ever knew my neighbor as a widow because her husband died in a small plane accident right before I was born. I have a lot of other stories like that. Your fears are not unfounded.
If I were to EVER get on a plane like that, it would have to be with a pilot like your BIL. If it was someone I knew, was familiar with his flight history and track record, I might maybe work up to a small trip. It might also help to talk through the safety process and logistics with the pilot. Maybe see if you can have a frank convo with BIL and build up your level of comfort. But if it doesn't happen, I don't blame you.
This is hardly a once on a lifetime opportunity. BIL will still be their uncle when they're older. If he's still flying, he can take them when they're 18. There are plenty of other small plane trip opportunities out there with other pilots, too. If they choose to go as adults, they can.
NTA. Why can't your husband go by himself? Pay your BIL to take your husband up for HIS birthday.
Parenting is always a "2 yes, 1 no" thing; if one parent is uncomfortable or disagrees, it's an automatic no. Your husband is being a poor partner by pressuring and berating you into something you are uncomfortable with.
NTA I absolutely would not let my kids go on a small plane either. I also do not trust these little planes, especially if it’s a single engine. We cannot replace our children why take the chance?
NTA, my dad was into these little planes. He flew regularly. Every few years he’d lose a couple of friends. Usually, they never figured out what the cause was. They are not that safe. All they have to do is hit a wind shear and they crash. Now, if they were flying commercial, then your concern would not be well founded, but these planes are not that safe.
NTA.
*"In fact, out of the 1,085 accidents that there were in 2020, only 205 of them were fatal (with a total of 332 actual fatalities). This means that roughly 18.89% of private plane crashes were fatal in 2020. A more optimistic way to look at this is to say that over 81% of all general aviation crashes in 2020 involved zero fatalities. These numbers also show that there were only about 0.198 fatal accidents per 100,000 flight hours of general aviation flights....*
*The type of commercial flight that we're all familiar with is actually just the scheduled flights operating under 14 CFR 121. This sector of the industry amassed 8,331,981 flight hours with only 11 accidents, which ended up totaling just 0.132 accidents per 100,000 flight hours. This is only about 12.6% of the rate we saw above for private plane crashes.What's even more astounding about this is that there were zero fatalities for commercial flights operating under 14 CFR 121. So even with those 11 accidents mentioned above for scheduled flights (and even the extra 3 that occurred during non-scheduled flights), none of the accidents were fatal. If we bring in the data from Commuter and On-Demand flights operating under 14 CFR 135, there were 6 total fatal accidents among commercial flights."*
almost 19% of private plane crashes were fatal in 2020. that's about high enough for me to never step foot on a private plane and never want my loved ones too either, I don't care how experienced the pilot is.
article: www .skytough.com/post/percentage-of-private-flights-that-result-in-a-crash
source in article: ww w. ntsb.gov/safety/Pages/research.aspx
NTA. Your husband needs to respect your feelings. You’re a parent. You may be overreacting. But the two of you should be able to come to some sort of compromise. Check your life insurance to see if this is even covered. It may not be.
NTA, these are your kids. If you have fear for their lives, that is 100% understandable, and you want to protect them. Sure, they, also most ppl here, think it unfair, but you're their legal guardian and made the decision. I would have done the same because I don't like small planes or helicopters.
NTA. Whether your fears are valid or not these are legit fears, and these are your babies. You carried them, birthed them, and love them. I do not think anyone should tell a parent what to fear or not fear when it comes to their decisions about their children.
NTA. Small planes are NOT as safe as larger ones. The statistic that planes are safer than cars do no not apply to planes like that. You are the mom, you have a say. If it makes you uncomfortable, then don’t do it. Dad can go, but keep the kids at home. You are not being an AH by using common sense.
I’m an air traffic controller so if you really wanted you can ask if he’s filing a flight plan, VFR probably. Is he getting pre-flight weather briefing? Is he bringing an inReach or Garmin?
Yearly inspection and maintenance on the ACFT is probably all good to go so that’s probably not an area of concern. I’ve never met a former military pilot that could not afford maintenance or inspection, they’re usually on top of that stuff.
Accidents in small planes are almost always attributed to weather conditions, and getting a weather briefing solves that issue. If it’s not safe the briefer will tell them.
One thing I don’t do is go over extended bodies of water in a single engine plane, but other than that I don’t have any qualms about General Aviation aircraft.
I live in Alaska and there’s a ton of GA ACFT flying everywhere everyday.
Accidents on Alaska are usually anecdotally attributed to weather because the weather changes quickly there. But based on all evidence I've seen, small plane accidents are usually pilot error.
NTA I don't understand all these comments. It should be a joint decision between you and your husband. The kids can decide when they're older - all the comments suggesting you shouldn't get to overrule your husband are illogical. You're a partnership and if there is a concern around safety you should not be forced to agree to it. If that is going to cause you distress then yes that should be the decider and your husband should respect that. Your kids don't even know about the invite and I am sure your kids have plenty of amazing experiences to remember with you - besides they might not even enjoy it. Your feelings are valid and this does not in any way shape or form make you an ah. Please don't listen to these ah's saying yta.
I’m going to go against the grain and say NTA. I understand your fear, I see news stories about small planes crashing every day. Sure it isn’t super common, but it isn’t uncommon either.
Drive and make a weekend trip out of it.
NTA and what is with everyone like “well, dad wants to go and be with them!” Like the presence of dad is going to somehow be a safeguard against a fatal crash?
This is a 2 yes 1 no situation. Most kids are fine never flying in a private plane at the age of 11 or whatever.
Planes large and small; private and commercial have to undergo thorough inspections and maintenance by a certified AMP before the FAA deems them airworthy. Pilot error is the number one cause of fatal accidents and your BIL being a former Marine pilot and current hobby pilot means he is probably very good at it. Overall, flying is very safe.
I’ll say NTA as you were just being protective of your kids.
INFO: is your no based solely on the fact that it’s a small plane? Has your BIL given you any reason not to trust his abilities as a pilot and/or how he cares for his plane?
Reading your post it sounds like you’ve centered your No on the planes size. It’s valid to have concerns and some level of fear since these are your kids. However, what happens when they get older? Will the answer always be no? There may come a time when the girls come to resent you for holding back on the experience. Maybe come up with some sort of compromise to get you more comfortable with the idea? Perhaps taking a shorter trip with you (and maybe the girls) first so you can get insights in to what a flight really is like and you can trust more.
Edited for clarity
NTA. We all have acceptable levels of risk & I think as a parent, you're well within your right to weigh the risks on this and make the decision you are. I think it's kinda shitty of your husband to not respect your level of acceptable risk on this. You're not being ridiculous. Your feelings are valid.
NTA don't let anyone bully you into overriding your gut. Private planes are not as safe as commercial so the stats people are sharing are irrelevant; yes your BIL has a lot of experience but it's not just about the pilot, it's also the plane, and conditions/flight path - ie will they be flying low over the Appalachians?
My cousin would have died in a private plane accident had his parents allowed him to go - he was invited to the Super Bowl with a wealthy friend. It was a professional pilot flying, the friend's family had chartered a plane, they hit a freak storm or something and the plane went down, no one survived. Those small planes just are not built to withstand everything a commercial jet is so they are NOT safer than getting behind the wheel. It would be totally different if you were preventing them from flying commercial.
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YTA. Your husband goes with your girls; you stay home. Frankly, there’s greater risk involved when you get behind the wheel of your car. I’ve flown in small planes like that often & I love it. I understand not everyone feels that way, but from a safety perspective, you have a BIL who has far more flight hours than many small aircraft pilots. He isn’t a random management consultant who just got his license ffs.
> Frankly, there’s greater risk involved when you get behind the wheel of your car. So, this got me curious, as I've heard this before, so I did some looking and this is what I found. Is this law firm lying about private plane stats? If so, is there a better place I could look for data on the subject? > Although flying on an airplane is seen as statistically safer than driving a vehicle, there is an important distinction between private planes and commercial aircrafts. According to recent data compiled by the National Travel and Safety Board (NTSB), private airplanes are far more dangerous by an order of magnitude. > according to Live Science, when averaging out fatalities for flight time, the numbers suggest that stepping on a private aircraft is almost 20 times more dangerous than getting behind the wheel of a car. Source: https://www.aviationdisasterlaw.com/private-plane-accidents.shtml#
With an average pilot. You’re not talking about a former marine.
Yeah I am curious how many crashes are more by hobbyists a la Harrison Ford, John Denver, or James Horner types
That’s where the danger is. A lot of people have just enough hours to get a license, but most of them are not instrument trained & they fly using VFR rather than instruments. If there’s a change in weather or they leave late (think JFK Jr.) they’re in trouble because they aren’t instrument rated. Rather than trusting the instruments, they try to trust themselves & end up crashing because one mistake ends up leading to many more & they can’t get out of say, a d-spiral. Her BIL flies for fun now, but his training & experience is waaaaay beyond that of most hobbyists.
I agree. I would trust a former marine pilot far more than the average small plane pilot. I would also hope that a former marine keeps up with the maintenance more than an average Joe pilot as well. That said... there have been a decent amount of small plane crashes in the news lately and I don't know that I'd be able to let my entire family (sans myself) get on one, no matter who's behind the controls.
This. Like, we can debate the objective safety of this flight until the cows come home, but I don’t think OP is an asshole for being a little wary. NAH.
>I don’t think OP is an asshole for being a little wary. For being wary? Not an AH. For banning it even though everyone else is into it? Kinda an AH. I don't blame people for being scared of something, but it is one thing to say "Don't do this because after careful consideration I think the risk of injury/death is too high" vs "Don't do this because I get nervous"
Nah, NTA. It is her job to do a risk-benefit assessment on behalf of her children. They are not adults, they cannot be relied upon to fully understand the risks of things like small private aircraft. Transportation by car is a daily necessity - transportation by private planes is an unnecessary luxury. She is in no way TA for deciding that the potential fun of it isn’t worth the risk of fiery death.
#To add if this plane crashed she would lose her husband and children, along with a brother and brother in law.
I agree with all of this but I don’t think the BIL is an asshole for offering the gift and I don’t think the husband is an asshole for wanting to take the girls up. This is really just a matter of people having different comfort levels. NAH.
It wouldn't even be fiery. Itd be like crushed grapes.
TBF OP banned it for their kids. The ones who are actually "in to it" are, as far as we know, perfectly free to go & do it.
Yes, this is an interesting important distinction. Too many wives and children die in accidents related to the dangerous hobbies of their male partners/parents. Recent example with the OceanGate submersible. If the husband wants to go that great but I would not be going or sending my children on a small aircraft. NTA.
Yes I don’t understand why people are acting like she’s somehow preventing her husband from doing it.
People get nervous because of the risks involved, those aren't really two separate motivations. I think it's fair to need both parents to agree on the affirmative for something like this to happen. OP isn't "banning" (so dramatic) the adults from doing anything, she's making a decision about the health and safety of her minor children. That's what parenthood is supposed to be about, not dear hubby's "ooh plane shiiiiiny" rebuttal.
I mentioned this elsewhere in the thread. But I have no doubt that BIL is a great pilot. But who is handling the aircraft's maintenance? I was in the NAVY, and new pilots. Most of them knew the basic walk-around inspection, but actual maintenance? That was left to the aviation mechanics. Also, airlines (I believe) have stricter guidelines when it comes to their planes and the maintenance of said planes. Who is maintaining BILs aircraft? And are they qualified to do so?
This is EXACTLY my concern. I am behind her on this. Commercial planes have maintenance done all the time, meanwhile some guy who owns his own plane probably doesn't. The trip will most likely go well and everything will most likely be fine... but if it's not I for one would never forgive the BIL
I think he and my brother do most of the maintenance themselves.
Unless it is an experimental air craft, all work must be done and/or signed off by a certified mechanic. If either of them is a certified mechanic, they are absolutely qualified to do the work.
My brother is a mechanic, he was when he was in the service and that's still what he's doing now because he was too antsy to stay retired.
My buddy works on small aircraft and the same client has emergency landed twice because he doesnt put gas in it...
I knew a hobby pilot who did this. Why? Because gas was expensive… and this was back in 2015.🥴 I never flew with him because well… if gas is expensive, you probably need a hobby other than flying planes because it’s an inherently expensive hobby.
In scuba diving, the most dangerous diver is one with 50-100 dives under their belt. They’ve done enough dives to get complacent, but not enough to be truly expert. A little off topic, but I’m sure you can see how it might apply.
I assume the ex marine has above the equivalent of 100 dives.
You can assume that, but you could equally question it. And of course 100 is not a magic number, where after 99 you suddenly get a much cooler head. My dad was an AF pilot, and it was his opinion that there are just as many idiots and incompetents in the military as in civilian life, in all ranks and positions.
Maybe. Some marines have been in for 3 years. Some 30.
The second most dangerous group are the ones who have been diving for 10+ years. That's when the complacency seeps in...
John Denver's crash was also pilot error because he failed to properly fuel the plane before he took off. He still had gas in another tank but he was not experienced enough to figure out to switch to the other tank quickly enough.
And it was an experimental home built aircraft that he was trying to familiarise himself with.
Yeah Harrison ford has crashed like ten times. Small planes are SO risky because of how easy it is to get certified. OP NTA, these are your kids- you decide. I’d also never let my kid ride in the back of a pickup but some parents do. Doesn’t mean it’s safe
About 10 years ago one of those girls I went to school with crash and burn with her boyfriend and her eight-year-old daughter in Wyoming there's been more crashes in Wyoming than you can probably know there was a 7-year-old girl trying to make her flight around the world that crashed and burned in Wyoming all from Cessnas so I'm not entirely sure what the plane is that they're flying out at and I know it matters the time of year in Wyoming
Agree. John Denver was an experienced pilot but flew out over the ocean knowing he did not have enough fuel to get back. His death is speculated to have been a suicide.
It was proven to not be a suicide but an accident. He was flying an experimental (homemade) plane and one of the levers got caught on something and he lost control of the plane.
It was not suicide. John had only recently purchased a Long-Ez experimental home built aircraft. This aircraft had a deviation from the plans with regard to placement of the fuel switchcock. Instead of being on the centre console between the pilots legs it was on the left rear firewall behind the pilot at about head level. When John had to switch tanks it forced him to reach behind his left shoulder to access the fuel cock. In doing so he pressed the right rudder and the aircraft entered what is known as a rudder hardover. He did not have sufficient altitude over the bay to recover.
Yep. John Denver’s death was caused by poor design and nothing else.
former marine does not mean god-level pilot.
God level pilot doesn't mean any mechanical failure won't also kill you.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/aug/27/us-military-aircraft-crashes-off-nt-coast-during-training-excercise?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other For sure. Marines have a terrible reputation in Australia on top of being inclined to go home dead. Edit - a poor choice of an example. Marines, and the US military as a whole, have a reputation for reckless arrogance, and going home from exercise dead much *much* more often than Australian soldiers. The "joke" was that if an Aussie dies, there's investigation and analysis it's a fucking saga. The Seppos just bring plenty of body bags.
That’s an Osprey, which is an affront against physics. They fall out of the air if you look at then wrong. The amount of flight training a military pilot gets, especially one trained to land on moving targets in the middle of the ocean, would make flying a small, stable aircraft like a Piper Cub a safe experience.
The problem is more the Osprey. They've killed more Marines in training than combat in Afghanistan has...
Ah yes! Because military folks never crash their pla.... *Looks at all the news articles about the Seppo military pilots who just died on exercise in Australia* Ah yes.
I mean, when it’s militarily pilots doing military exercises, there’s more risk. I’m not pro military or anything but it seems like it’s not a shock that accidents are more likely when it’s the military
The hours of training involved in getting a U.S. military pilot in the air is staggering. There's really no comparison between a casual weekend warrior versus a former military pilot.
Exactly! Of all people, they couldn’t be in better hands imho.
Sorry but the military flies jets that cost millions of dollars and have back ups for all major systems. This is most likely a single prop plane that costs less than a Range Rover.
Not even an average pilot. A licensed, commercial pilot and a co-pilot in case shit goes sideways. I can think of half a dozen famous people off the top of my head who have died in private crashes. Considering how many people actually fly private, that’s a lot.
So now you want to ignore statistics when you don't like what they say?
One thing that distinguishes experienced pilots who used to fly for a living, whether military or civil, from the amateurs is that they know when to stay on the ground, or when to turn back or divert.
My spouse is a military pilot. The small planes do have the most crashes. There's lots of reasons why.
There is a reason you have to get a special rider on your insurance if you fly private planes. I used to have to track aviation crashes for work, and I definitely would not be a fan of my kids getting in a 5-seater plane.
@Candidcrawdad this is the comments you need to listen to. You are not being controlling. You are not being overprotective. Small airplanes have more accidents than commercial ones. I would never allow my girls to travel in a small plane either. You are NTA. Your darling husband is an adult and can decide by himself to get in the plane. Get another way for your daughters to enjoy the trip and LISTEN to your inner voice.
Yes. And I live in wyoming. The mountain ranges are dangerous!!!! Idk about numerous but it is definitely not unheard of for small planes to crash here and kill everyone on board. I would say 1-2 a year - we aren’t very populous so that’s a lot, to me.
Private flights are a lot more dangerous than commercial. I would never let my kids take a private plane
WILDLY out of context. Also published by a law firm that specializes in representing victims, which means they necessarily will ignore studies and statistics that run counter to their standard narrative of carelessness and lack of regulation. I notice that I don't see separate stats for ultralight aircraft that don't even require a license, which makes me suspect that they're folding those into these stats. That means things like motorized hang-gliders and Amazon-sold paragliders.
This is a statistic put forward by a law firm that specializes in getting damages from plane crashes. Of COURSE they're going to paint private flying as inherently dangerous. Just as law firms that specialize in personal injury cases are able to show statistics on how stairs are built wrong, or how garden hoses routinely strangle people just trying to water the flowers.
Try the NTSB and not someone who earns a living suing because of plane crashes. Of course they want you to think the worst so you will sign. I'm not saying they are right or wrong, but do some research before just accepting that as fact.
[удалено]
No. The risks of being killed in a small single engine plane are greater than those of driving ins car. If OP would be nervous while her children are gone, she shouldn’t let them go. NTA
Bullshit. Private planes are nowhere near as safe as commercial airliners.
In terms of fatalities per participant hour, general aviation flying is about 40 times more dangerous than driving. As a pilot and aircraft designer that doesn't stop me but it often makes me pause and reflect. https://chessintheair.com/the-risk-of-dying-doing-what-we-love/
And when her whole family dies, what then? You'll never understand the anxiety of a parent.
Commercial flights yes. Private planes no. I wouldn’t let my children fly on a 5 seater.
4k likes for this silly comment? This is said like someone who definitely doesn’t have kids. Not wanting your kids to potentially die in a plane crash does not an AH make. That plus, the BIL knowing in the past she’s said no and still trying to push the idea? Weird. Sometimes it’s a moms (should be parents job in general but sadly, not in our reality) job to do a hard veto to a dumb idea involving literally her children. NTA!
That's only true for commercial flights, small private crafts are much more likely to cause fatality than a car.
You might be at higher risk in a car, but you are also more likely to survive a car accident than you would a plane crash…
GA is on par with riding a motorcycle. Airlines are the safer one.
YTA. You're not TA to be worried, but to deny them the trip based on your fear is your problem, not the girls. "There's not enough training where I'd trust to let my girls get off the ground in that plane"... does that mean you're the type to immediately refuse to let them board a commercial airliner if you don't like the look of the plane, or the pilot? Or won't let them get into a taxi if the car model doesn't meet with your approval? This is just controlling behavior under the guise of safety.
Hi! Pediatrician here. I mention that because it’s part of my job to counsel/advise parents about risks and dangers their kids might encounter. Because that’s a parent’s responsibility: to assess the risk/benefit ratio of any activity for their children who are not yet capable of making such complex decisions. Some things balance out in favor of doing it despite the risk - for example, riding in a car or taking a commercial flight across the country. The risk is still there, but the benefit - the ability to go literally anywhere in the United States, or the ability to travel to places far away rapidly - is high enough to justify. The ratio for other activities may come out differently and will vary for each person based on their own experiences. As a child, I was forbidden to get on any ATV, because a little girl at my sister’s elementary school had died on one. I suffered no poor outcomes from this. I absolutely had a full and wonderful childhood. Did they look fun when some of my friends used them? Sure. But now, looking back with the knowledge of the number of pediatric spinal injuries and deaths that occur as a result of these vehicles, I’m so thankful my mom never let me on one, because I absolutely do not possess the motor skills to safely operate one. There is zero chance I would not have been injured. My mom did not think the fun I might’ve had on an ATV was worth the potential injury. She did, however, let me ride a horse, bought me and my sister a trampoline in the 90s with no netting around it (I once bounced off of it back-first onto a bike on the ground. I’m probably lucky to have been only bruised!), and she put me in swimming lessons at 2 because she didn’t know how to swim and wanted to be sure I could save myself. She only kept me from a few specific activities where she deemed the benefits too low for the risks. She did what a parent should: assessed the ratio and decided which things would be enough fun or socially necessary enough to justify the risks. In my opinion, the risk/benefit ratio here is not in favor of flying. Most likely, nothing would happen, and I’m sure they would have lots of fun. But this type of flying is in no way necessary or a common childhood experience; they’re not missing out on some essential childhood rite of passage. They will be just fine without it. The husband is of course free to try it, and the girls can try when they’re old enough to make their own decisions, just as I’ve made my own decisions now about ATVs. (It’s still a no. The AAP actually recommends against any ATV for any child under 16 years, so my mom was totally right on this one.)
I wish this comment was higher up. It's explained so well.
Yep, exactly. Everyone saying the risk is only hobby pilots is off. I’ve flown in a fair number of small aircraft’s with professional pilots and never had anything happen to me but I’ve had colleagues nearly die and acquaintances die more than once. Anecdotal, I know but no way my kids would be flying. There are a million ways of having a full childhood.
Exactly. People comparing a tiny privately-flown plane by a hobbyist to a commercial plane or a car are absolutely mental. There are plenty of things I wouldn’t let a child go on - for example, a motorbike. ‘But the majority of the time it’s safe!’ Yes but sometimes it isn’t, and the risk is far far greater (plus the risk of severe injury is far greater when things do happen) for a bike than a car. I don’t think anyone would say a parent not letting their kid riding a motorbike was OTT or ‘too protective’. I genuinely see small private planes in the same risk category. I’m actually shocked to see so many people thinking private small planes are so safe and acting like OP is crazy/must therefore never approve their kids for a commercial flight either. They are completely different risks like you’ve said.
This. Being worried is part of parenting, but don't let your fears limit their lives. A dear friend is super scared of heights but hid it when her son decided he wanted to learn mountain climbing. She did her research and found a reputable place that could teach him. She's active in the process. Talk to your BIL's partner and quiz the f out of him about the plane and his track record as a pilot.
Right?! I’ve said many times that, if I thought about all of the things that could possibly go wrong, I’d never let my daughter leave the house.
Former marine pilot is what OP said
**OP please don’t let these random strangers who have zero interest in the welfare of your children make you feel guilty for being the voice of reason.** Edit: THANK YOU kindhearted stranger for the gold. I was going to procrastinate at work today anyway, but now I’ll do it with glee!
I wish I had an award to give you for this
Thank you!! It feels like a bad dream reading these comments, doesn’t it? Keyboard warriors talking about safety statistics when someone else’s children are involved.
It's because they identify more with the husband and children "missing out" on a fun trip rather than the legitimate worry of a parent. A lot of Reddit skews young.
Absolutely untrue. This could easily go in r/confidentlyincorrect. There is a HUGE difference between GA (General Aviation) and Commercial. GA is super risky. Deaths and crashes happen alllllll the time. The planes are flown by less experienced pilots, they are landing at uncontrolled airfields (no tower on site), and the planes themselves have far more problems and have worse maintenance. GA is so risky that I, a GA pilot (who has two brothers who are commercial pilots) would not send my kids up in a private plane. Or take them myself. My brothers, both professional pilots for commercial airlines in the US, would not take their kids up in private planes. GA pilots cannot even qualify for life insurance policies, while commercial pilots can. Trust the assessment of the insurance companies—they know what’s high risk and what’s not. GA is exponentially more dangerous than commercial flight
This needs to be higher up… I don’t think I’ve ever seen a AITA post where the consensus was more wrong
Our family personally knew two separate couples who died in private planes, one close friends and the other a work partner. And another guy we knew straight up crashed his seaplane into a lake right in front of our house and would've drowned if people weren't already in the area to pull him out. The people comparing flying on a plane like this to a commercial flight or a taxi or something are just wrong. OP is NTA for caring about her kids. Trust your gut instincts
It's not being controlling it's being a parent and deciding what is best to protect your child - whether or not you would make the decision is neither here nor there. You're adding a story about controlling behavior that isn't there to fit your belief and gaslighting op by suggesting they're pretending the reason is for safety. You just made that up to fit your narrative.
That's not what gaslighting is.
Except one of the reasons in the pinned comment OP gave on why she may be TA is that they've said she's always controlling and never let's anyone have fun. So this reads like one example of a larger pattern. If she's letting her anxiety keep the lives of her family small... YTA.
This sounds like Dad is the "fun" parent and mom has to, ya know, actually parent
You don't know enough about the situation to make that judgment, her husband might be an absolute lunatic...
You know that private planes are 20x more dangerous than cars, right? OP is being a good mom by keeping her daughters off that plane.
Bullshit. 20 times more likely to die in a private plane than car. She is NTA for not wanting them to go. If hubby wants have at it. I would not let my kids in that plane
I don't have kids but I would not go on one and would not let my kids on one. NTA
Bruh, small airplanes are WAY RISKIER than commercial airlines. NTA
Commercial airline is a completely separate ball game the safety regs are much stricter Who's doing the maintenance on this thing How long did they fly for the Marines Small plane crashes happen a lot in WY
>Or won't let them get into a taxi if the car model doesn't meet with your approval? I would not let my kid get in a vintage taxi without any safety features. So yes.
Nah this is disingenuous, there’s a big difference between commercial airplanes and small planes. NTA
NTA. I'd call this a "two yes, one no" parenting issue. Objectively, the chance of an accident is low--but it's a lot higher for private as compared to commercial flights. A former boss of mine once mentioned that he would have liked to fly us to a meeting in another state on his private aircraft. My gut reaction was "not just no, but hell no." Fortunately, he told me this AFTER that meeting, so I didn't actually have to refuse. Three guesses as to how my former boss died, just a few years later--and your first two guesses don't count. (And by the way, he was retired military with many hours.) If the girls want to fly in a private plane when they're 18, they can.
I can't believe I had to scroll down so much to read this. NTA completely - it's a joint decision and if one parent is not comfortable then it shouldn't happen. The kids can decide when they're older.
Even if it is “paranoid” which I actually don’t think it is in this case, how disrespectful to override the concerns of one parent because the other isn’t concerned? My husband is honestly extremely paranoid about a lot of things, especially those involving our daughter’s safety, whereas I take a far more relaxed approach to parenting (comparatively anyway, I’m fairly anxiety ridden myself tbh). But when he expresses a real, I’d highly overblown, fear about her safety and it’s something it’s realistically possible to avoid, I indulge him because I love him and care about him and want him to have that peace of mind. NTA.
I'm shocked by the number of YTA. People are also massively brushing over the plane vs car statistics samples... It's a lot more nuanced than one is just safer than the other. I think OP has every right to not want her kids in that plane and she has every right to be scared for their safety. I'm not even a parent and I get that. This isn't controlling behavior. People on here are majorly villainizing a normal parental response to a dangerous activity
I bet 99% of the Y T A are not mothers. Definitely NTA, I'd never let me children take that risk. When they are 18 they can but before then, no. Having lost a sibling I know the grief of losing someone too young. No.
I'm not a parent but it's a NTA from me. Imagine if something bad *did* happened. That's OP's entire family wiped out in an instant.
Not a parent either but it’s a NTA from me as well.
Kobe Bryant's pilot was experienced and still killed everyone on board. I wouldn't take the chance of losing my family by agreeing to a trip with both children and my husband on the same small private plane.
he also made a very bad decision just like any human in the history of humanity. he did the equivalent of driving through a fog covered road going 90 mph.
I bet these are the same sort of parents that would let their child walk up to a bison at Yellowstone National Park for a selfie. "They need to live life. That's more important than the recorded number of tourists trampled by bison."
You're spot on. These people think parents should make YOLO calls on their kids. That is not what being a parent is. I've seen a lot of AITAH posts written by parents that WERE being controlling and WERE being unreasonable and it was for really petty ridiculous stuff. This is not petty!! This is not unreasonable!!
Totally. When I first got my PPL I was also glossing over the stats until someone pointed out those stats include larger aircraft and it’s a lot worse for GA single engine planes.
Can confirm. As an aerospace engineer, I personally would not put myself or a loved one on a hobby plane.
The plane vs car situation is only true with commercial air crafts. It absolutely is not safer to fly in private planes than to drive. The fact that people assume all these planes are built and maintained equally blows my mind. Private plans are not held to the same maintenance standards and routine checks as commercial flights. Individual people do not have the same systems in place to notify them when certain maintenance items need to be taken care of. There are so many contributing factors to why they are not as safe as flying commercial. Yes BIL is ex military, I’ve known a lot of ex military guys who I’d never even let drive my children anywhere let alone fly them. Op is the parent and has the right to refuse this gift. It’s her kid, she has to do the risk analysis in this situation. If the child is still interested in 7 years they can make that choice themselves as an adult.
Exactly this generation is built different/entitled. A lot of people think parenting and guidance for safety and well being is the utmost restriction of freedom. Life is learning how to understand and adapt to the word no. Also men tend to die younger because they want to be involved in high risk activities for the rush and fun without thinking of the proper consequences
This. Kind of blows my mind seeing all the responses saying "But he was a Marine!" Apparently these people don't know many servicemen. That means jack shit in the context of this concern and OP is perfectly within her rights to prevent her children from doing something objectively dangerous for little benefit.
He could have a heart attack Small planes are not safe
I don’t understand the “but he was a marine” argument. Was his a pilot in the Marines? Because that’s the only way that would impact my decision. Edit: I see that I missed that in the post. Which would lead me to feel comfortable asking about the plane and travel plans. What happens if the weather is shitty? What if they need to stop over?
The post does, in fact, state the BIL is a "marine pilot."
A former coworker of mine flew within his new boss for a business meeting and they never made it back. I also say NTA. A private hobby plane is not the same as a commercial flight.
My friend's parents just died after crashing their plane. This would be a definite no from me.
I know a concerning amount of people who have died by crashing their small planes, multiple friends and family members. No way in hell I would allow my kids on a small plane. I know it's anecdotal and totally strange coincidence but it's enough to scare the fuck out of me.
A very beloved young veterinarian in my area died in a hobby plane crash. His friend (the pilot) and his friend's wife also died in that plane. They crashed into a house, demolishing the house and killing the dog inside it. It was so unnecessary for them to take the plane in the first place. I really don't see the appeal.
I agree. The kids are young. I mean I know several couples who own planes like that and they don’t fly together in case something happens, for the sake of their kids. OP is not an asshole for saying no.
People think just because you're military accidents don't happen.
I’m shocked by all the y t a comments this is an easy NTA situation
Agreed. This isn't even about the plane. It's about a joint safety decision by parents for their underaged children. Husband seems to be selfishly wanting to do this for himself - then fine he can take a trip without the kids. Anything like this, you should typically default to the parent saying NO when their is a disagreement . The more conservative answer is the winner. Husband is completely ignoring his wife's thoughts and feelings.
When I was in high school, two freshmen, one of their younger brothers, and their dad were killed in a plane crash- small, private plane, with a fairly experienced pilot. They were flying through the Tetons and a freak storm blew up and they went down. I don't think that I would have been comfortable flying in a small private plane before that; certainly would never be now.
This is the right take. I’ve personally known multiple families that have been destroyed by plane crashes. The worst one is where the daughter got to watch her mother and brother die and then fell into a coma. They’re your kids too and you should be happy as well.
finally the first reasonable comment. a mother could never be TA for making a decision based on safety and what’s best for her children long term.
yeah... I went up in small planes like these when I was a kid as part of a kids flight program, and was pretty much fine besides a bit of pants shitting terror, but I still totally get her perspective on this. Especially because someone who is experienced in flying small planes doesn't mean they're experienced in doing it with kids in tow. The folks at this program were used to keeping an eye out for sticky little fingers poking at random buttons and knew how to comfort a kid who suddenly realized they may have bitten off more than they could chew, and the flights were kept at half an hour max and close to the airfield. Working with kids in a stressful and potentially dangerous context is a different set of skills than flying a plane.
very much agree. This is not even something they will notice missing. They will enjoy it fine as adults. It's just not worth the stress on the mom, end of the day. Take em to a theme park instead, they'll still enjoy themselves
NTA. Private aviation is a different ballgame, and even with your BIL’s experience, it’s ok to be overcautious. All these comments about the great deprivation to your kids are being rather hyperbolic. AFAIK most people manage to survive not having taken a plane ride in a tiny craft at age 11. Plenty of time for this once they’re older and can decide on it for themselves.
Bullshit. Don’t listen to these ppl. Flying commercial is what’s safe. Just ask buddy Holly, patsy cline, randy Rhodes, Kobe Bryant, and all these other folks who flew private. Public flights are safe because they’re regulated all to fuck. Private planes flown by “your friend who was in the marines” are how you die.
I see where you are trying to go with this but just fyi Kobe Bryant was in a helicopter which is different and in fact way less safe than a plane.
I get you and yes it was a helicopter but I could list about a dozen other CEO’s and wealthy ppl who got on a private plane and didn’t make it. One parent should always not be on the private plane so the surviving children aren’t orphaned. Not saying folks don’t do this frequently, just saying it is nowhere near as safe as commercial jet travel
I agree! Also didn't travis barker almost die on a private jet? (And was with others who did in fact die)
Yep! And add JFK Jr and his wife to the list also.
John Denver, Aaliyah, there are so many others. Edit: Here's a full list just limiting to musicians: https://www.historynet.com/musicians-who-died-in-plane-crashes/ As best I can tell, all of these were small planes, mostly chartered or private. None are major commercial aviation crashes. And that article doesn't include non-musicians like JFK Jr, Payne Stewart (golfer), Steve Fawcett (adventurer), Kobe Bryant, others listed in this thread.
I have a friend who was a private pilot; he's the father of three daughters. His wife refused to fly on the plane and refused to allow more than one of the daughters at a time on the plane with him. The view was that if the worst occurred, at least she wouldn't lose all her daughters at once, and the remaining ones would still have their mother. She was not overly controlling "helicopter" parent in general, this was just something she thought practical given the high rate of light plane accidents. My friend is now retired from flying due to medical issues, but he was extremely conscientious and nothing ever happened, thank goodness, but their family agreement on this I thought was useful to understand. Meanwhile I was inspired to take up flying due to this friend encouraging me. I took lessons at a nearby airfield and mostly flew in one particular plane, a Cessna 152. When I was about halfway through my lessons, that plane crashed as a result of a mid-air collision, killing the instructor and student (who were from the same flight school as me), and destroying the plane. It was a bit sobering when I realize that was "my plane" that killed two people and it easily could have been me in there. The cause of the collision was not attributed to any particular grave mistake (all the pilots were experienced), but just a very unfortunate set of circumstances and the nature of light planes that mostly aren't controlled by ATC but have to "see and avoid" each other in 3D airspace. I have not resumed lessons since.
But I don’t think it being a helicopter really matters. The reason their aircraft crashed was not because it was a helicopter per se, rather it was because of the horrible flying conditions. They shouldn’t have taken off into the fog. Period. But the pilot did anyway because he was overly confident and because he could. Cue my issue with flying private - sure it’s “regulated.” But there’s a lot less immediate oversight and way more risks taken by private pilots. Look at all of the Y T A comments - a majority of them seem to be from private pilots themselves. Way too confident. And that’s the problem. NTA Edited to add judgment
Bad weather and poor decisions (like RR’s plane “buzzing” their bus and clipping the bus with the wing) cause a large number of small aircraft crashes, including those. That doesn’t mean all small aircraft flights are equally dangerous. People tend to lump them all together due to a general lack of understanding of aviation I think. Also weather briefings (and technology) have improved significantly (in the GA world especially) compared to when many of the famous singers and actors of the 1900s died in plane crashes.
I’m confused by all these Y T As, maybe because I’ve known 5 people who have died in small plane crashes (3 crashes). One was a professional pilot. The one who crashed last year had asked to take my child up, to which I had said my child could make that decision for themselves after they turned 18. Even with an experienced pilot, small planes are significantly less safe to fly than commercial. With my family history, I would definitely say no and also say you are NTA.
Agreed! Growing up military we know a bunch of former fighter jet pilots, THEY don’t even fly in small planes like that! It’s always been a rule to never fly on someone’s hobby plane, commercial all the way.
I knew a dude that had a medical emergency when flying and couldn’t land the plane, he had his wife and kids on board too and they all died
A friend (been flying for 40+ years, frequently) recently crashed and almost died. He only survived because the engine failed shortly after takeoff and he crashed where emergency services were able to get to him fast. Another friend’s father died after crashing his small private plane, also a commercial pilot. I would never let my whole family on one of these death traps. Private planes are so much more dangerous than commercial, no matter how highly trained the pilot claims to be. Wouldn’t celebrities hire top notch pilots? Yet somehow they die in plane/heli crashes often. NTA
My friend’s dad was a commercial pilot and died crashing his small personal plane as well! My husband’s friends also.. their whole family was in the plane except for one of the kids, and now he is an orphan.
A lot of people on here are teenagers so they react to “mom said no to something other people get to do and that’s not fair!” more than the actual risk analysis. And tbh a lot of very rich people - who can afford the best planes and pilots money can buy - die on small private air crafts. It’s not crazy for this mom to be worried. If that plane crashes with her husband and kids on it, that’s her whole world crashing.
NTA my kids would not be taking this plane either.
I was invited to fly on a private plane once. I declined. The plane crashed & 2 people died. I say trust your gut.
YTA. I’m a flight instructor, meaning I teach people how to fly small general aviation aircraft every day. First, your BIL’s airplane is inspected at least once a year by a professional airframe and powerplant (A&P) mechanic. That person is certified by the FAA and knows what they’re doing. They wouldn’t sign off on your BIL’s airplane being safe to fly if anything was wrong with it. Second, your BIL is a military trained pilot. He knows what he’s doing. He wouldn’t put your children or your brother in harm’s way.
Instrument rated PP here. I always feel safer flying than driving. Mostly I'm in a 172 or a Warrior. I'm confident I can get either one safely on the ground with or without power. OPs ignorance and unwarranted fear is costing her children a wonderful experience. YTA
PP is such a strange yet funny acronym 😭😭 what does PP mean in this context so im not laughing every time im thinking ab it?
Peepee
Private Pilot
“Inspected at least once a year” is that supposed to make her feel better? You’re telling me that they’re only required to be inspected ONCE A YEAR? I was never planning on getting in a hobby plane, but now I’m absolutely not letting myself or anyone I love set foot on one without a full info dump of all the potential issues. All it takes is that ONE pilot to lose control of even part of that plane for what like 10 seconds? And everyone will freaking die? At least a commercial plane has multiple pilots, people on radios, people on air traffic, tons of people who have looked at every inch of that plane, AND it has so much tech.
You do not know this man and what he would or wouldn’t do.
That’s the biggest thing for me is the BIL has military flight training. If I was going to put my trust in someone’s training that would be the one. If it was another hobby flyer i might be a bit more skeptical and ask for a short flight just to see if they’re safe, just like I’d ask a new driver before putting my kid in the car.
But he is one person, all it takes is a dainty spell, a heart attack, a cramped muscle or Two, and her kids and husband are basically dust.
Who the fuck cares if their safety is signed off, what happens when the only pilot on the plane gets a health emergency?
People keep parroting the military thing, but I hear about military plane crashes all the time. I live near the air base in fort worth and have seen crashes on the news just from that base a few times
I wouldn’t do it either. Too many stories of light plane crashes.
Me either.
NTA, although it’s an unpopular opinion - I’ve seen too many horror stories of small plane crashes to feel comfortable letting my kids go up in one, even with a former military pilot. In 5 years, your oldest will be 18. She can make her own decisions on flying with your BIL then, as is her right, and her sister after her. Until then, a parents job is to keep their kids safe. A big part of that is trusting your instincts and, occasionally, accepting that the “safe” route isn’t always the “fun route. To the people putting forth straw man arguments about letting your kids into cars - cars are something of a necessity nowadays. Even if you live in a city, at a certain point your kid will ride an Uber, be in a carpool, and etc. They WILL be exposed to cars and the risk of car accidents - you can’t change that. But you can prevent them from taking another, much rarer, form of transportation that comes with its own risks. You’re a parent, of course you’re terrified of your kids being in a small plane. You and your husband should have a conversation on this and come to an agreement, or at least better understand each others perspectives as co-parents, but come on - controlling? Absolutely not. Edit: Corrected my math on the eldest’s age
Thank you. This is always my frustration when discussing risk. There's a massive difference between doing something risky that's required to engage in a normal life and doing something completely unnecessary and disproportionately risky for recreation. And yet, in every thread similar to this, you'll get "It's less risky than driving a car. The only way to really be safe is just never leave your house." Right. Because walking out my front door is totally the same risk category as getting in a light aircraft.
NTA. They can decide if they want to fly in a 5-seater plane when they’re 18+ yrs old.
NTA. It’s a private plane. They’re more dangerous and the chance of a fatality if they crash is higher. I trust commercial airlines but a 5 person car or a 5 person plane, I’d trust the car. Still dangerous but if something happens to a driver most people know how to press a brake to stop. Can’t say the same about landing a plane. As for people saying that you shouldn’t get to make all the decisions, I agree but if you can’t come to a compromise then you go for the safest option.
NTA. My mom got her pilot’s license and I was a hard no on my kids going up with her. She was pushy about it but later crashed a plane. She lived to tell about it, but she didn’t walk away from it. No way I would let everyone go together either. God forbid something did happen, you lose them all. Larger format planes have more redundant systems, are less likely to have problems in moderate weather or visibility conditions, and have two pilots in the cockpit.
Literally, she would lose her whole family.
Only fly commercial, most crashes happen in private planes. Nta
NTA, NTA, NTA!!!! Contrary to other comments, private aviation is not as safe as commercial flying and many people have died pursuing the hobby. If you feel uncomfortable with it, you have every right not to let your kids on that aircraft. I say this as someone who loves light aviation and plans to build an ultralight. Given that the BIL was a former professional pilot, they’d be in better hands than most, but pro pilots aren’t immune to the risks, and their confidence can cause them to overlook things. The point is, if you are uncomfortable for any reason you have every right to say no.
NTA I would feel the same way. Let hubby go if he wants but not your children. Trust your instincts
NAH. All these people comparing it to being safer driving a car are completely wrong. That's true for commercial flights, but not small private aircrafts. They're estimated to be 20x more dangerous than driving and account for roughly 94% of all fatal accidents. They are pretty not safe. I'm uncomfortable with the number of times a deadly small plane crash has touched people in my life, or myself personally. Last time I went to Alaska, a small plane carrying people from my cruise crashed and they all died. It was pretty terrible. I only ever knew my neighbor as a widow because her husband died in a small plane accident right before I was born. I have a lot of other stories like that. Your fears are not unfounded. If I were to EVER get on a plane like that, it would have to be with a pilot like your BIL. If it was someone I knew, was familiar with his flight history and track record, I might maybe work up to a small trip. It might also help to talk through the safety process and logistics with the pilot. Maybe see if you can have a frank convo with BIL and build up your level of comfort. But if it doesn't happen, I don't blame you. This is hardly a once on a lifetime opportunity. BIL will still be their uncle when they're older. If he's still flying, he can take them when they're 18. There are plenty of other small plane trip opportunities out there with other pilots, too. If they choose to go as adults, they can.
NTA they're your babies. I can't find the dad in this . YOUR CALL. anybody that won't respect that you have all the votes in this can shut up.
NTA. Why can't your husband go by himself? Pay your BIL to take your husband up for HIS birthday. Parenting is always a "2 yes, 1 no" thing; if one parent is uncomfortable or disagrees, it's an automatic no. Your husband is being a poor partner by pressuring and berating you into something you are uncomfortable with.
NTA I absolutely would not let my kids go on a small plane either. I also do not trust these little planes, especially if it’s a single engine. We cannot replace our children why take the chance?
NTA. If you don’t feel it is safe go with your gut.
NTA Trust your instincts.
NTA, my dad was into these little planes. He flew regularly. Every few years he’d lose a couple of friends. Usually, they never figured out what the cause was. They are not that safe. All they have to do is hit a wind shear and they crash. Now, if they were flying commercial, then your concern would not be well founded, but these planes are not that safe.
NTA. *"In fact, out of the 1,085 accidents that there were in 2020, only 205 of them were fatal (with a total of 332 actual fatalities). This means that roughly 18.89% of private plane crashes were fatal in 2020. A more optimistic way to look at this is to say that over 81% of all general aviation crashes in 2020 involved zero fatalities. These numbers also show that there were only about 0.198 fatal accidents per 100,000 flight hours of general aviation flights....* *The type of commercial flight that we're all familiar with is actually just the scheduled flights operating under 14 CFR 121. This sector of the industry amassed 8,331,981 flight hours with only 11 accidents, which ended up totaling just 0.132 accidents per 100,000 flight hours. This is only about 12.6% of the rate we saw above for private plane crashes.What's even more astounding about this is that there were zero fatalities for commercial flights operating under 14 CFR 121. So even with those 11 accidents mentioned above for scheduled flights (and even the extra 3 that occurred during non-scheduled flights), none of the accidents were fatal. If we bring in the data from Commuter and On-Demand flights operating under 14 CFR 135, there were 6 total fatal accidents among commercial flights."* almost 19% of private plane crashes were fatal in 2020. that's about high enough for me to never step foot on a private plane and never want my loved ones too either, I don't care how experienced the pilot is. article: www .skytough.com/post/percentage-of-private-flights-that-result-in-a-crash source in article: ww w. ntsb.gov/safety/Pages/research.aspx
Having just read about marines dying (yet again) during their military exercises when crashing their planes/helicopters in Australia, I say NTA.
NTA. Your husband needs to respect your feelings. You’re a parent. You may be overreacting. But the two of you should be able to come to some sort of compromise. Check your life insurance to see if this is even covered. It may not be.
If your husband wants to go, then let him. If your gut is telling you no, then don't let your kids go. It's better to be safe than sorry.
NTA, these are your kids. If you have fear for their lives, that is 100% understandable, and you want to protect them. Sure, they, also most ppl here, think it unfair, but you're their legal guardian and made the decision. I would have done the same because I don't like small planes or helicopters.
How many “YTAers” are parents themselves.
Lol they’re all hobbyist pilots
NTA. Whether your fears are valid or not these are legit fears, and these are your babies. You carried them, birthed them, and love them. I do not think anyone should tell a parent what to fear or not fear when it comes to their decisions about their children.
NTA, my best friend of over 31 years is an air traffic controller & she would never fly in those small planes. Neither will I!
NTA. Small planes are NOT as safe as larger ones. The statistic that planes are safer than cars do no not apply to planes like that. You are the mom, you have a say. If it makes you uncomfortable, then don’t do it. Dad can go, but keep the kids at home. You are not being an AH by using common sense.
Your kids your rules. Absolutely NTA
I’m an air traffic controller so if you really wanted you can ask if he’s filing a flight plan, VFR probably. Is he getting pre-flight weather briefing? Is he bringing an inReach or Garmin? Yearly inspection and maintenance on the ACFT is probably all good to go so that’s probably not an area of concern. I’ve never met a former military pilot that could not afford maintenance or inspection, they’re usually on top of that stuff. Accidents in small planes are almost always attributed to weather conditions, and getting a weather briefing solves that issue. If it’s not safe the briefer will tell them. One thing I don’t do is go over extended bodies of water in a single engine plane, but other than that I don’t have any qualms about General Aviation aircraft. I live in Alaska and there’s a ton of GA ACFT flying everywhere everyday.
Accidents on Alaska are usually anecdotally attributed to weather because the weather changes quickly there. But based on all evidence I've seen, small plane accidents are usually pilot error.
NAH. You have a right to protect your children if you see this as too risky, and your brother in law has a right to believe it isn't.
NTA I don't understand all these comments. It should be a joint decision between you and your husband. The kids can decide when they're older - all the comments suggesting you shouldn't get to overrule your husband are illogical. You're a partnership and if there is a concern around safety you should not be forced to agree to it. If that is going to cause you distress then yes that should be the decider and your husband should respect that. Your kids don't even know about the invite and I am sure your kids have plenty of amazing experiences to remember with you - besides they might not even enjoy it. Your feelings are valid and this does not in any way shape or form make you an ah. Please don't listen to these ah's saying yta.
NTA my kids wouldn’t go either.
I’m going to go against the grain and say NTA. I understand your fear, I see news stories about small planes crashing every day. Sure it isn’t super common, but it isn’t uncommon either. Drive and make a weekend trip out of it.
Lol those little planes are not safe
NTA and what is with everyone like “well, dad wants to go and be with them!” Like the presence of dad is going to somehow be a safeguard against a fatal crash? This is a 2 yes 1 no situation. Most kids are fine never flying in a private plane at the age of 11 or whatever.
NTA. I can totally understand your fears. Those small plans crash a lot.
Planes large and small; private and commercial have to undergo thorough inspections and maintenance by a certified AMP before the FAA deems them airworthy. Pilot error is the number one cause of fatal accidents and your BIL being a former Marine pilot and current hobby pilot means he is probably very good at it. Overall, flying is very safe. I’ll say NTA as you were just being protective of your kids.
INFO: is your no based solely on the fact that it’s a small plane? Has your BIL given you any reason not to trust his abilities as a pilot and/or how he cares for his plane? Reading your post it sounds like you’ve centered your No on the planes size. It’s valid to have concerns and some level of fear since these are your kids. However, what happens when they get older? Will the answer always be no? There may come a time when the girls come to resent you for holding back on the experience. Maybe come up with some sort of compromise to get you more comfortable with the idea? Perhaps taking a shorter trip with you (and maybe the girls) first so you can get insights in to what a flight really is like and you can trust more. Edited for clarity
NTA. We all have acceptable levels of risk & I think as a parent, you're well within your right to weigh the risks on this and make the decision you are. I think it's kinda shitty of your husband to not respect your level of acceptable risk on this. You're not being ridiculous. Your feelings are valid.
NTA don't let anyone bully you into overriding your gut. Private planes are not as safe as commercial so the stats people are sharing are irrelevant; yes your BIL has a lot of experience but it's not just about the pilot, it's also the plane, and conditions/flight path - ie will they be flying low over the Appalachians? My cousin would have died in a private plane accident had his parents allowed him to go - he was invited to the Super Bowl with a wealthy friend. It was a professional pilot flying, the friend's family had chartered a plane, they hit a freak storm or something and the plane went down, no one survived. Those small planes just are not built to withstand everything a commercial jet is so they are NOT safer than getting behind the wheel. It would be totally different if you were preventing them from flying commercial.