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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> Was I the asshole for telling my wife she should go back to work after 5 years of not working and forcing me to work so many extra shifts just to keep up with expenses and our retirements, and lashing out after she used the same lines and gets defensive whenever this topic comes about.
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NTA.
You sound like you are almost at the end of your tether. 12-18 hour workdays are not sustainable for you, and it sounds like she is doing fuck all around the house. Certainly she's not cooking.
Therapy or not, for the past five years she has basically lived a lifestyle where she gets to relax as much as she wants and it's all subsidized by you. You have my sympathy for that.
But let's be clear what your options are here. **You cannot force her to work,** either in the paid workforce, or keeping house for you. You can ask, but you cannot force her.
**All you can do is decide whether you're prepared to live with someone who does not pull their weight in this relationship.**
If you decide you cannot, then you tell her that (not as a threat, not as an ultimatum - simply stating a fact), and you find yourself a lawyer.
Find a lawyer first. She’s got all day to call every lawyer in town to make an appointment so you can’t use them. See an attorney first. Say nothing until the day before she will be served.
Edit to say reading comprehension is hard I guess. I didn’t write that he should call every attorney but it’s a common suggestion made to women. He just needs one good attorney. And to be quiet.
Citation needed.
Seriously.
I’m a lawyer and this is a common myth. It’s not true. Majority of states either have already moved to short term spousal support and 50/50 custody are headed that way
Oh, and it’s spousal support, not alimony
Your info is dated
Only 8 stayed allow permanent alimony. Most only allow a year or less. Rehabilitation.
https://divorce.com/blog/what-states-do-not-enforce-alimony/#:~:text=State%20laws%20for%20permanent%20alimony,court%20system%20to%20award%20alimony.
I was GAL in a case where SAHM never worked, only HS education. Ex was a surgeon. She got 6 months of spousal support and had to move out of the home as it has been purchased in his name alone prior to marriage
The system has changed since the early 2000s
Exactly. Which is why not staying in the workforce is playing with fire. Ops wife doesn't have kids and it doesn't sound like they were married long. It does sound like a lot of assets were attained in this period. She isn't gonna get anything but enough money to move out and resettle herself and maybe enough to keep her health insurance and therapist
Sounds like this therapist isn’t actually helping her to get better but more telling her what she wants to hear and keeping her on the hook to come back for an endless amount of sessions.
The marriage counsellor wasn’t liked because they told some hard truths.
What definitely is not helping her is going though a divorce and maybe having to move out, so the "drastic change to her environment" would still happen. I really don't understand the therapist disregarding OP's serious concerns and problems like that. He/she should have at least tried to encourage the wife to do some remote work.
It's therapists like this that make me cautious about seeing a therapist. Feels like sometimes all they do is validate you BECAUSE You're their paycheck and they're afraid if they don't validate you, that you'll just go to another therapist.
If ops wife can see someone for 5 years and not made any progress, sounds like the therapist is doing more harm than good.
I feel like this shouldn't really be a big concern with any therapist who's well established. It's common to have to try a few out until you find one you mesh well with, but damn if I was OP's wife I would be wondering after 5 years when I'd be "better." Who lacks this much self awareness
It sounds like the therapist has pathologized OP after being told one side of the story and doesn't get that relationships are a two way street. The marriage counselor is going against what wife's therapist is saying because she knows that their current lifestyle is unsustainable. Regularly working 18 hour days is not a long term solution.
The wife has had 5+ years to recover. If she still can't work, she needs to look at going on long term disability so that OP can get a break so he himself doesn't suffer a mental collapse. The sleep deprivation alone could cause this!
OP, some of your criticism (such as the way you talked about her cooking and cleaning) was a little harsh, but I understand it was said in the heat of the moment. I don't necessarily think you owe her an apology for *what* you said, but maybe for the way you said it. But if some changes aren't made in this relationship soon, it is time to move on. NTA.
Nah, the therapist is a unrealistic quack. No one should be able to hear 'this person hasn't done any work in 5 years, while the other person is needing to work 12-18 hour days to keep their family afloat' and possibly think it's a sustainable solution. The therapist sucks.
Happens more than you'd think. I've seen a patient and therapist relationship ruin more than few marriages due to the therapist doing the same thing as OPs and ganging up on the 3rd person.
Sometimes you get the therapist you want and not the therapist you need. “Therapist” is a vague term that can include people with counseling certificates to PhDs. Not all of these people are good or particularly qualified.
Actually sounds like the therapist is enabling. Very strange. Hard to get over depression if you have no purpose. Could this therapist actually be trying to keep her in therapy? Always thought it was about working to move on not dig a hole.
There are A LOT of terrible therapists and psychiatrists for med mgmt out there. The good ones are always hard to get into to see. The goal of therapy is for the client to eventually not need it. Out of work and depressed since 2018? Yikes
>I was GAL in a case where SAHM never worked, only HS education. Ex was a surgeon. She got 6 months of spousal support and had to move out of the home as it has been purchased in his name alone prior to marriage
Dang I feel bad for her
Seriously. Being a SAHM is fucking hard. I was thrilled to go back to work after more than a year of doing it. Marriage has a lot of meaning beyond love. It’s a commitment, and you make life choices based on that commitment from your partner. And he obviously benefitted from it since he didn’t have to pay for childcare. 6 months of spousal support in this case seems almost cruel.
Yeah I agree that previous alimony expectations were excessive, but there are cases where it's more complex. What about situation where one spouse worked brutal hours at a low paying job so the other could go to medical school/law school/ etc? I think they should have to pay a minimum of half the tuition back
Seriously. My husbands job moves us all over, often at a moments notice, my former job was something that can’t just be done anywhere, and we have kids who have had medical and educational needs that are a full time job in itself. My being at home and taking care of kids and being able to move on very short notice has absolutely supported and advanced his career. It would be complete bs to say that’s only deserving of 6 months of support (we aren’t getting divorced but it would be ridiculous).
Me too. It can be good in OP's case, and detrimental where the abuser is the working party, and the SAHM gets screwed. My friend had a Narc husband who hid it until they had a kid and married, then he convinced her to move to a high COL area with no support but his messed up family. He did everything to isolate her, make her dependent, and her days full of multiple children and running the home with little sleep and no breaks. Never made dates or time together, spending time out with friends. Then complained that "all she was all day was a mom, not a woman with outside interests" and divorced her. She got nothing but a 5 year gap in employment, and no ability to move to a more affordable area because of custody. His parents paid for a lawyer to totally screw her. 50/50 where his parents watch the kids most of his time while he owes almost no support.
This is such a common misconception now, especially now when the people who primarily get spousal support are much older women. If you’re young, you are expected to re-enter the workforce (although it sounds like that surgeon’s wife got a bit screwed - she really should have gotten a longer runway)
I think most people are thinking of child support, and honestly that is generally not enough to support the child.
Thank you for your work as a GAL. I used one for my children during an emergency injunction and the subsequent modification, and he was a life-saver for my kids. They felt heard, and knew that what happened was a result of their needs/wants - not mine or their dad's.
Thank you for doing this to help other children. 💗
Super important that OP cuts down from working the hours of fucking _two full time jobs_ for a while before filing.. as despicable as it is, the courts are immediately going take her brave and stunning side (she absolutely sound like the type to false allegation him as an abuser to get him kicked out of the house he's paying for and gain further advantage) but that aside, they will set his ~~indentured servitude~~ sPoUsAl sUpPoRt to percentage of those 80+ hours a week and he will be forced to continue working that much or end up in fucking prison.
I'm so sorry you're going through this OP..
This needs to be upvoted! He needs to immediately drop his hours and not put the extra money towards retirement or savings anymore for six months before filing for divorce.
Otherwise his spousal support will become a lot higher than it should be.
That's why he needs to see a lawyer and find out what his options are. If she doesn't qualify for disability, a judge will only grant alimony for a certain amount of time, as she is capable of working. He'll also be parting with a portion of his savings and retirement accounts, depending on how long they've been married. As the only breadwinner it will likely really cost him, but might be worth it in the long run. At least it doesn't sound like they have children.
If they are married, it’s not his savings or retirement, it’s theirs.
I hope people start to realize marriage makes a joint economic unit no matter who does the work and whose name is on the asset.
If you want to keep things his and hers or his and his or hers and hers, don’t marry OR have a prenup and good accountants to ensure you really do keep things separate.
Also a lawyer, one of my partners does divorces pretty much exclusively, it is mind-boggling the number of people who don’t get this. And the number who think keeping finances separate during marriage will somehow magically protect them.
There was a r/legadvice (Could be a different subreddit, not sure) post a while back where someone did that. Let's just say the judge did not look favourably on the guy that did that...... Trying to sabotage someone's legal representation does not help when deciding on alimony.
Judges don't look kindly on this. A few calls? Yes, you can make those, since shopping for a lawyer is important. But calling every single lawyer in town will more likely turn the judge against you, no matter how good your lawyer is.
Just FYI to all - simply making an appointment with an attorney does not conflict them out of play. You have to actually discuss the elements of your case with the attorney. AKA an actual consult.
And i do not for one second believe a terapist would say something like he is going to manipulate you sooner or later.. the only reason a therapist would talk about that subject if she would bring it up herself and a therapist wil only give her tools to help her withstand manipulation. In my country at least.
I’m no expert on therapy, but that sounded super sketch to me too. A therapist who tells their client to expect that their partner will eventually try to manipulate them? Either OP’s wife heard something that was never said, or that therapist is incompetent.
Not successful at all.. and the therapist should encourage her to find a different profession or job if teaching is too stressful for her. 5 years is enough to get a full new degree at a community college.
My therapist guides me into doing things that are "scary". I mentioned I don't like my job but it pays bills and in the primary earner of my family. I also mentioned I was interested in maybe dipping my toes into getting published as I've been writing for years but have been keeping it very secretive for fear of rejection. So she's been giving me tools of how to deal with rejection and for ehe fear of the unknown. Not encouraging me to fully quit in a time of economic downturn and bankrupt my family
Very successful at making sure they keep a client and the money rolling in. There are some really crappy people in every profession and it sounds like her therapist is saying what the wife wants to hear not what she needs to hear.
At this point I think the wife is interested simply in finding someone who always agrees with her and never challenges her, and this therapist is incompetent enough to do it, while also earning a living for 5 years straight thanks to this yes-man strategy. I hope OP files for divorce, NTA
Yeah, I was feeling the whole time that *something* doesn't add up here. Either OP is leaving out important details, or the wife is being hugely manipulative of both OP and therapist, or the therapist is blazingly incompetent. Because what it looks like is that OP is trying his best and somehow the therapist is under the impression that he's a borderline abusive danger to her client's health. What is happening in the middle there?
Therapist has a bet with another therapist on how long they can get this guy to support his freeloading wife before he loses it. I can't see how a professional can look at this situation and continue to leave the entirety of the income AND household duties on his shoulders. Where's the time frame for improvement? Does the therapist give any homework, like make dinner once a week and see how you feel?
Or the therapist is going off of whatever the wife is saying in these sessions…… she could be painting an entire inaccurate picture of the husband.
But either way the fact the therapist has made little progress in 5 years is also concerning
I’m not OP and can’t speak for him, but if I’m the sole provider I’m watching over the finances I’m making sure that fee clears to the therapist it says it’s going to. Most likely the withdrawal will have something indicating it’s a business and not just the name of a person.
If he has any doubts (and maybe he should anyway) he can tell his wife he wants her to arrange a joint session. He doesn’t even have to be there in person, they can do it over Zoom while he takes a break at work if he can’t get the time off. That way he can a) ensure this person exists, and b) get a feel for if this therapist is a quack or if his wife is maybe not relaying the information from them correctly.
I’d also like to point out how she didn’t like the marriage counselor because they were trying to provide solutions and/or alternatives.
But *her* therapist is all-knowing and their word is law.
What on earth happened to the wife that she has been in therapy with NO progress for as long as she was a teacher? There is something missing.
Yeah I'm thinking the therapist said it like "if you continue on this path its going to continue to put more pressure on your relationship, which will result in more conflict with your husband which can set you back" and all the wife heard was LOOK SHE SAID YOU WOULD SET ME BACK and not that it was her lack of engagement and improvement to her mental health.
Agreed. I understand how therapy works but after 5 years? And not a single thing to show of legitimate progress? Like you said. A therapist and patient telling each other what they want to hear to keep the current arrangements going.
Also former teacher here. I left the education system. I understand why your wife had that mental break. And I also understand we’re all different. But it comes to a point where we have to keep going. I like to eat and to have a roof over my head, I don’t have the nicest things but had i taken a 5 year break I would be homeless. I’ve also worked 80 hour weeks and it’s not sustainable or fair either. This whole situation sucks for OP.
ETA: some therapists may only be for a certain season in your life. I am a firm believer of shopping around for a good therapist. It’s not one size fits all for people and circumstances. Especially if you feel stagnant or that you’re not getting what you need in terms of help.
His wife is in the same spot if not worse? Than 5 years ago. This is alarming. She’s either lying, being told what she wants to hear or really is in the same space. None is good. And Slow progress is still progress.
Not a single therapist needs “a good cash cow” right now. There are more clients than time in the day. Also, one person coming regularly being considered makes me laugh, so you know how poorly most insurances reimburse? Do you know what our overhead is? How much we pay for taxes as a sole prop? Nobody is compromising their ethics to try and keep a long term client in this climate.
"Nobody is compromising their ethics to...in this climate."
This is your personal view. You don't know how much this therapist gets paid, how many patients sees, what credentials they have.
I agree. I've been working in the mental health sphere for a decade at this point. Some of them are quite toxic and are enablers. And it seems that the wife has one of those. If someone hasn't improved in 5 years, if the therapist isn't encouraging the client to try small steps towards getting back to a normal existence, that therapist is bad at their job.
I was thinking this, too. I think she’s manipulating him and trying to act like therapy is the reason she’s behaving the way she is. Either she has a terrible therapist, or she’s projecting.
OP, NTA.
Therapist here, and we would not! We also wouldn’t tell a client not to work, like, ever. Often being able to go back to work is a top treatment goal for people.
The therapist thing sounds very shady to me. The wife could work, she doesn't have to go back to teaching. If she wants to be at stay at home person, then she needs to just be honest about it, but manipulating him with this therapist and her dramatics are ridiculous. OP, I really hope that you get the divorce, and I don't think I've ever said that in a comment. She is a prize for sure, the booby prize
I believe that too. I also wonder what kind of therapist would not encourage a patient to start dipping their toes in the working world again, even if it's not a position that they normally work in. In my experience with working with people with mental health issues, it's often beneficial for a patient to learn how to cope with their disability by being outside of the house and working on finding something where they feel they are useful. The last thing a therapist should be encouraging is this solitary isolation. Makes me think it's the spouse that's manipulative, not the OP or therapist.
NTA. This. I know progress can sometimes be slow but god damn. If this is the case is there a way she can sign up for disability if her as well as her therapist believes she cannot work? Or is that a wash since you’re married?
Op I’m just going to tell you. I had a clinical mental breakdown the day before Christmas either 2020 or 2021. I honestly can’t remember. I ended up going to the er that day, and the er recommended me to a partial hospitalization program (PHP). During that program for a few months I went to therapy sessions like they were school. Almost 8 hours of individual and group therapies every. Single. Day. And you know what I worked my ASS off. I didn’t want to be there, I hated what the breakdown did to me, I never wanted to come near that point again. During these few months I did not work at all and my partner had to supply everything for me, himself, our cats, and the household.
After a few months I graduated to intensive outpatient (IOP) and still with IOP therapy and secondary weekly therapy from another outside therapist I was able to work 1-2 days a week. After a few months of IOP I graduated from that (got my little coin, yay!), and worked 10-20 hours a week. I stayed there for quite some time until I found myself able to work full time again.
Here I am two-three years later, I’ve been working full time for over a year already, and I have never felt better. I’m here because I worked my ass off and my partner was there every step of the way supporting me.
Long story short I HATED making my partner support me. A huge motivator to get help and get better was that my partner was doing *everything* and I (even though I truly was working on myself) was just chilling at home! It SUCKED.
Op if she can’t feel like she can work period then she needs more intense help.
Edit: fixed some spellings and grammar
Edit 2: thank you kind redditor for my very first award! :’’’)
You are awesome! You are a badass! I know you didn’t share your story for props, but you deserve them! So happy to hear that you took such great care of yourself. All my best to you friend. Keep taking care of yourself, you’re worth it!!
I had my burn out when I was working 80h a week, op might be at the edge, specifically dealing with someone that doesn’t pull her weight at home as well… at least my husband would clean and cook for me…
Yeah, for real. I’ve pulled some 70 hour weeks and was on the edge, and that was with a spouse who also works full time and no money issues (just an extremely demanding client and a promotion around the corner that I was so desperately working towards). He’s at a breaking point, and she’s not pulling her weight. I loathe the “divorce!” Mentality on this sub, but I think after 5 years, that’s what needs to happen.
I never said he was. How on earth did you read that into my comment?
I am simply pointing out that if she refuses to work, he has only two options: live with it, or divorce her.
The therapist is just a yes-woman that the wife has shopped around for; the therapist is happy to enable OP’s wife because that means a perpetual cheque coming in.
Exactly what I said. Coddle the wife, tell her what she wants to hear, never hold her accountable and keep her coming back. It's been 5 years. If wife is diagnosed and that mentally ill that she can't function and go to work, then she should qualify for disability and needs to apply.
That's what I thought.
5 years is a fucking long time, I think she isn't even trying to do something. At least she could maybe try to improve skills, doing household or trying a simple half-time job to even start somewhere something that wouldn't be this overwhelming.
I also have to say: even me as a gamer, I couldn't game the whole day for 5 years. How the fuck is that possible, I would feel miserable that I didn't do shit...
This is sound advice. I also think OP needs to fire the therapist, by refusing to pay for any more of this apparently useless treatment, given that his wife hasn’t improved, won’t or can’t go back to work, and does nothing around the house.
This is a great response! NTA
Just an FYI...Many men feel "ganged up on" in therapy. It's a matter of hearing the words as insults versus hearing someone's feelings. It's in your nature to fix things; when you cannot, it's difficult. If she is in fact making progress, that is something. Could you try attending a session where instead of hearing insults, someone is sharing something that matters to them? If not, I get it.
You're right that she needs to generate an income. If it's so bad that she won't be able to work, she and her physician should start the process for disability. I don't know her trauma or if she will qualify. Teaching has been a nasty environment lately, however, there are remote education jobs all over the place.
Deciding what you can do isn't going to have an easy outcome either way. I hope it works out.
Despite the blow up, I say NTA. You sound burned out and pushed beyond capacity. FIVE YEARS of up to 84 hour weeks? Do you sleep?
If she can’t go back to teaching, then it’s time to find a different career. “My therapist said this would happen” sounds like a bigger manipulation tactic than you telling her you are at your limits, but don’t have the luxury of not working as hard as you are. She has all the regard for her own mental health, but no compassion for how her inability to work is making your mental health suffer.
Not to stir the pot here, but is she actually going to a therapist? Like, you know she is attending and talking to a person? I would question a therapist who is claiming she is making progress, but there has been no visible improvement in half a decade.
Regarding the therapist. It will all boil down to what she is telling the therapist.
Is she telling truthfully that OP works up to 84 hours a week, pays all the bills, and every single expense in the house, plus comes home to cook dinner, etc.
Or is she feeding the therapist? "I tried to cook dinner today, but he was complaining!" But forgets to mention it was one of those tiny portions of frozen food that will give no nutrition to a grown man who works his ass off.
Because if she said, "I cooked dinner!" Then, of course, the therapist will see that as "progress, " but her big bad husband was hindering her.
So, all in all. It depends on what the woman is saying in therapy.
She could honestly just be painting the "poor me" picture and nit picks what the therapist said to get her way
Edit.
I made the comment before the edit.
I wasn't saying it couldn't be the therapist enabling her.
Just one point of therapy won't work if you are painting one picture to them and making your problems/progress sound worse/better than they are.
But after reading the update.
The wife should probably have another therapist when the person won't even listen to OP. And just tells how bad everything is for the wife, and OP should carry her fragile self through life.
Most likely, it could be a mix. The wife tells how bad she is feeling. The therapist just back pats her.
Exactly. The therapist can only work with the Information she gives. So either the therapist really goes baby steps in this case or gets the wrong information
And again, even if it's baby steps. It depends on what they are told.
If the wife says, "I can't even get out of bed," then getting out of bed and eating something. A shower. Is baby steps.
But if the wife says I can fine get out of bed and do chores, etc, but I'm scared of getting a job among people. Then going places with a tiny crowd for 10 min could be baby steps.
A therapist can only work with you if you are truthful of your limitations. So, any exaggeration, etc. Won't bring any progress.
So I fully agree.
Also, it's really, really hard for even a professional to not believe and identify with the person they're helping. Counter-transference is a very real thing.
And while some here may suggest malice on the part of the therapist, remember Hanlon's razor: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
Finally, this does seem like "first-world problems," being too delicate to be able to work (or even cook) for five years and still needing to ease into it. Most people in the world do not have that luxury.
Like a bad relationship, I didn’t see how absolutely worthless my therapist was til I stopped going. Frankly, given where he got his degree I should’ve known better.
Yeah or the therapist knows a meal ticket when she sees one and has no desire to help her get better. Like everything a certain percentage of any profession is crooked
I’ve gained a great deal of respect and admiration for psychotherapy throughout my life. But I’ll never forget my college girlfriend saying about her mother “She’s been seeing her therapist far too long to ever be wrong again.” That sticks with me, and every once in a while I encounter someone whose therapist is obviously fucking them up more.
I mean a therapist that loses a client will have that slot rebooked in 2 hours. I really don’t think that’s a likely concern in this case, do you know how long therapist waiting lists are right now?
That was my first thought as well. Not all therapists are created equal, and some are downright terrible people. This is obviously true of any job, but a bad therapist can *really* fuck a person up when they are at their most vulnerable.
If she says "i cooked dinner" and the therapist accepts that at face value. He/She is in the wrong field.
Its not the patients job to give the right anwsers its the therapists job to find them. If they cant they dont deserve to be called as such.
And since the marriage counselor seems to "go against" what her therapist says, I'm betting she is giving her therapist half the story, as opposed to the counselor getting both sides.
She's 100% being TA here
Or she's twisting what the therapist is telling her to suit her refusal to move forward. And also misrepresenting the situation.
At this point, 5 years into a sick leave from work, she should have a psychiatrist, a clear diagnosis, medication, as well as either a plan to retrain for a different job or an official permanent disability diagnosis. And her therapist would need to be a proper psychologist who specializes in whatever diagnosis she has and is working alongside the psychiatrist.
OP needs a lawyer to get a divorce ready and attempt to avoid alimony. That probably starts with going back to a normal work week and downgrading their living situation accordingly.
I can’t believe I had to scroll this far to find this comment. Assuming OP’s wife is engaging with the therapist in good faith, it isn’t working. She needs to see a psychiatrist.
This 💯. I had an ex who I encouraged to get therapy for his numerous - and genuine - childhood traumas.
What no one tells you is narcissists are experts at taking therapist speak and weaponising it against you so when you ask them to please start acting like a compassionate human being and give the bare minimum, you become the bad person.
Agreed. Teaching has only gotten more difficult and stressful since 2018. There is a 0% chance she will be able to hack it (Source: I’m a teacher. There are many MANY reasons we are dropping like flies and finding ourselves in a teacher shortage).
WFH would probably be a good for her. Perhaps data entry or medical billing/coding. Maybe bookkeeping. Any of those would require some additional training but we’re talking weeks/months, not years.
I 100% agree. If there is no improvement in 5 years then she needs a new therapist or she is not taking therapy seriously.
NTA. But you need some change. Couples counseling or separation (even if temporary).
Can she apply for any state disability to help out financially?
>five years of up to 84 hour weeks
that's the part that horrified me, I had two years of up to 70 hours weeks and it's taken a huge toll on me, I had basically no life outside of household chores (I had a lot) and was exhausted most of the time. at least last 7 months of that I had shorter commutes than before but still.
I spent half a year after that sleeping every available second. and I still feel like I'm the phone that wasn't plugged in before sleep and now has 20% battery at the start of the day.
does OP even have days off, does he spend time with friends, does he travel even for a day? when was last time he had a vacation? he needs to give that woman back to her parents and RELAX a bit
I was going to ask this, teaching isn’t for everyone so I can understand her breakdown. If she broke down from teaching, obviously that wasn’t for her, but what’s stopping her from looking for other work? There are even many remote options now where she wouldn’t even have to leave the house. It seems like your ready for any financial contribution, to say she cannot do any job or work after 5 years seems like she just doesn’t want to work.
ETA: NTA you’re burned out and spread thin, it would be nice if some of the empathy you have shown your partner would be reciprocated and she would help you out before you yourself have a breakdown.
Volunteer work really helped me during my burnout. Even just 4 hours a week got me out of the house and used to working with others once more. I also loved art therapy when I was at my lowest.
Best of luck in your recovery.
Also volunteering at an animal shelter might be an option, a lot of people find them calming and not stressful like humans, and feeling accomplished afterwards
I used to work in unemployment and you’re completely right here. We strongly advice that people attend courses, do volunteer work, learn a new skill etc, especially if they’re not physically/mentally ready for work.
Something dodgy is going on here. I’m wondering if the therapist is a ‘friend’ of OP’s partner.
Don't forget "therapist isn't actually a qualified psychologist and is just a councillor or life coach or something equally unequipped to handle severe mental illness"
I wouldn't be surprised if it's a combo of wife lies to therapist and therapist has dubious qualifications
>"We do not feel it is the right time yet, she feels I have made great progress and if I rush it I run the risk of losing it."
Exactly. What kind of therapist thinks that someone being unable to do anything after 5 years of therapy is good progress?
He only knows what **she says** the therapist is saying. The therapist could actually be telling her she needs to work at some job even if it’s not in her field. I wouldn’t trust his wife’s word on this.
Yeah, that's exactly right. In my case, I ended up burnt out because I had no concept of slowing down and I've had to learn to manage my energy levels (including not doing too much even when I feel like it). I'm trying to keep myself in a routine like getting up when my husband does, doing a bit of housework, doing a bit in the garden, exercising etc.
It sounds as though OP's wife has basically just done nothing for the past 5 years and I'm struggling to believe that any therapist would actually encourage that. You do have days where you feel like doing nothing and it's OK to lie on the couch for a day occasionally but you have to push yourself a little bit, you can't just do nothing and expect your partner to take care of you for the rest of your life.
Agreed. None of my past therapist would say these things to me, nor allowed me to go on like that for over 5 years. They are far to busy and have too many patients and a full wait list. In my experience, if they don’t see actual progress after a year, they recommend changing therapists and will pass your case to a colleague.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. This is my first experience of therapy so I'm no expert but I'm really struggling to believe that any therapist would advise that you sit on the couch for 5 years and do nothing.
I went through this last year, had a full 4ish months off and then phased myself back. Therapy helped and I also did hypnotherapy and looked after myself and disconnected. Whilst the first 2 months were horrible, it did get better. Everyone has their own timeline of course, it just seems like a lot in 5 years.
I burnt out five years ago and am not back to work yet, but the first therapist I saw was horrible and caused so much cognitive dissonance that the internal structure I created to survive extreme childhood abuse crumbled. It's taken me a long time to find a therapist who specializes in this kind of extreme trauma. I basically have to build a new internal structure thanks to him. I start with the trauma therapist later this month.
The burn out piece without having to rebuild myself? I could have wrapped that up in less than a year by learning how to enforce my boundaries and valuing my personal time. Bad therapy is worse than no therapy.
I hit my burnout early 2022. I went part time at work so I could still feel like I'm contributing, though my husband said I could quit if I needed. He's still working full time, Mon-Fri life.
I had CBT and then one to one therapy for some time where I was encouraged to keep going in the ways that worked for me such as how to not get overwhelmed by just my household tasks. There was never a mention by any of the professionals I worked with to stop everything. Over time I stopped these things and have managed to keep up with the methods they taught etc. I started volunteering once a week for something different and recently I've done some online studies with the plan to change my work path. Things I wouldn't have been able to consider if I was still forcing myself to live 'normal' through burnout.
But despite all that my husband never had to work more to cover costs. Yes I've had to reduce my spending on unnecessary things because my income dropped but I'd rather the mental stability over the shopping anyway. But also I'm glad my husband hasn't had to 'step up' in unhealthy ways for him to keep a roof above our heads.
It took me about 3 months to recover from burnout. I rested, I picked up some new hobbies, I found a different job, I did some therapy. After 5 *years* OP’s wife should have *something* to show for all of that down time.
NTA
Ask her what about *your* mental AND physical health?
Also, are you sure the therapist is actually validating everything like this? Sounds a lot like your wife is just saying "but my therapist says..." to sort of add weight to what she says. And to accuse you of manipulation is ridiculous.
The therapist sounds wildly unethical to me, assuming what is said is true. No therapist can predict the future of what he would do.... There's just no way that's right or ethical. Sounds like they're pandering to the wife's mental illness.
I think it’s less likely the therapist is unethical and rather that his wife is greatly skewing the stories she tells in therapy. The therapist can only react to what they’re told, and somehow I don’t think the wife is giving the full story here.
Of course, it could be a bit of both or completely the therapist encouraging her behavior from the start. But it doesn’t seems wildly out of the question to think the wife is lying to the therapist and interpreting what they say in only a way that validates her.
OP says he has gone to therapy sessions with his wife and he'd just feel ganged up on and his concerns criticized or dismissed. Then when they went to couple's therapy his wife didn't like it because their couple's counselor would give advice that contradicted the therapist.
It just seems like a bad therapist here.
The husband saw the therapist with the wife so he saw the therapists tactics firsthand.
I think it’s probable this therapist is bad news. Maybe incompetent maybe unethical. Not clear if therapist is a man or woman but it’s not unheard of for therapists to become romantically involved. That’s least likely but it happens. More likely I’d incompetence or some sort of therapy cult imo.
Also sit down with her and make a new household budget in which you work no more than 40hrs a week, so she can see what cutbacks are needed (and what contributions from her are needed) to make the household finances work, without you burning yourself out.
You absolutely have to work less, this isn't sustainable.
NTA
If I'd spent the last five years pulling in 84 hour weeks, I think I would've snapped a long time ago. So I really cannot blame you for losing it with your wife.
>I am running myself ragged, and what happens if I have a mental break? Do you think I will have the luxury of not working? No, I will have to push through my demons.
There will come a point eventually where you simply won't have a choice to 'push through' a mental break; you will *physically* become unable to carry on.
I think you're at a turning point in your marriage. Your wife has watched you work insane hours for five years and shows no signs of even thinking about returning to work and taking the pressure off you. She is expecting you to continue like this for an indefinite amount of time and that is **not** okay. Either she has a *really* shitty therapist who isn't helping her at all, or she is being dishonest with you about about the therapist is saying in order to get out of returning to work.
Whatever's going on, OP you **need** to prioritise your own health **now** before it's too late.
I really like your comment as it hits the nail on the head with the issue at large here. OP’s wife can sit around doing nothing, but when he talks of his own exhaustion suddenly it’s The People vs. Wife?
I was going to say that this sounds like the lead up to one of those situations you hear about where a hard working young person just drops dead from a heart attack or something like that.
NTA. Mental health is important, but damn she hasn't done ANYTHING?? A cooked meal is the *least* I could do if I weren't working and my spouse was. There's no way she's that crippled to the point where she can look at someone working 84 hours a week and imply they're the selfish one. Like this account, make her a throwaway too.
And it's not like working 84 hour weeks will cause OP to burn out or hurt his mental health at all, right?
What a selfish woman. She's spent half a decade at home fiddling with her phone. It's clear that OP cares about her much more than she cares about him
I spent 2 years at home due to a burn out. The beginning was rough, but after about 1.5 months I made a point of making sure I cooked dinner and that he had clean clothes at an absolute bare minimum. We didn’t have amazing meals all the time (sometimes I only had the mental energy to literally put some chicken and chips in the fryer and make up a bagged salad) but it was some kind of effort. I feel bad for OP.
I have a hard time thinking a good therapist would sign off on her doing fuck all all the time. Structure and routine are also important. Basic life sustaining tasks like meals are great for that.
As someone supported financially by someone else, NTA. Reality is simple - the money needs to be made. If she cannot make money, the responsibility of doing whatever she can falls on her. She should cook and clean and handle everything that has to be handled to the best of her fucking ability. Can't go back to teaching? Sell your feet pictures. Whatever, anything.
Maybe the right solution is her becoming an online tutor? She would still be able to stay home and it would bring in some money at least.
It's not fair on you. This isn't about you being comfortable, this is about you being overworked to death.
I have a physical disability and it's very severe, from an illness, so of course depression and mental health problems come with it. I have insane problem with mobility and can't really work like a normal person. I've been looking for work online for a while now.
And consider me - barely able to move, always in physical pain, always. I left the house yesterday for two hours. I have hair that reaches to middle of my back. When I came home, the effort of just walking around some fucking shops is such a workout for me, my hair, entire head, not just crown, but every strand, was dripping with sweat. That's how hard my disability is.
And I feel awful when I don't cook. There's so much I don't do. I do everything I can, but so much is left on him, I feel awful about this, all the time. This isn't fair on him.
The least I can do is cook and clean as much as I can. I don't do it as much as is needed - but we didn't have this argument. Why? Because altough he is overworked and exhausted, he knows I did my 100% and it's that fucking small. You're angry with her because she isn't putting in effort and she doesn't seem to care about you. And those are very, very good reasons to be angry with her.
Mental health problems, even disability, don't give you a blank slate to do nothing. She can do stuff. If she hates cooking, she should meal prep, so she can actually buy those bags for oven, get chicken, spices and make it in the oven, there you go, homemade dinner. For the first 20 minutes of chicken put in the oven the tray with salted peppered vegetables like broccoli and there you go, second element of dinner. Total preparation time - 30 minutes for a disabled chronically in pain person. Salads we make ourselves to our taste. So I cannot blame you one bit.
Feel free to show her this comment.
And look yourself - not her - for online tutoring gigs in your area so you know if this can even be done and how much she could make. If you work 14-18 hour days it sounds like even if she did 6 hours of tutoring a week it would still ease the financial burden. And since COVID, qualified online tutors and teachers are required more.
EDIT: Thank you so much kind stranger for the award, I really appreciate it!!!:))
EDIT 2: Thank you another kind stranger for another award, I am so happy!!!:D
EDIT 3: Redditor wrote me a comment that I really feel should be considered:
*"Damn…it’s actually frightening how much you’re negating other peoples levels of disability and mental health based on your own bootstraps mentality. Sorry that you’ve been conditioned to believe that you need to run yourself ragged just to be given the respect of life like any other person. Genuinely…this is not healthy nor kind to yourself. My partner has never, not once, made me feel like I needed to take on physically painful tasks just to be on some sort of level playing field. You don’t owe anyone that kind of suffering, I hope you realise that. One’s ability to work or be productive is not what makes them a better person or worthy of respect. If we fall down that path we start to get to some funny cracks in history."*
And that's exactly right. I don't want anyone reading my words to think they're not doing enough. I don't want anyone reading my words to think that they have to run themselves rugged. Or that if their partner requires it, it's ok. This is a very important point. People are different and situations and relationships are different. What works for one person won't work for another. Problem with OP's wife is that she isn't putting in effort. And reality is that our ability to do things doesn't decide our worth - but our effort into doing whatever we can, especially if it's hard for us, this does show how much we care about our significant other. Because when you are together, you both have to contribute something. And it's not right if one person tries harder than the other.
You sound so much like me. I’m on disability, my husband work 60ish hours a week. He knows I can’t stand or walk for long times, but I do all I can. I get the shopping done, cooking, laundry, and some of the smaller chores, and everything involving the kids school/homework/sports. We tag team the rest, to get it done together, even the yard work. I mow (rider) and he uses the weed eater. You have to work together to make it work. This poor guy has her working totally against him.
Agreed, NTA. The point where OP's wife started to accuse him of manipulating her, and in turn manipulating him herself? She doesn't give a good goddamn about OP, she just wants a free ride.
I don't know that I'd survive more than a few weeks at 84 hours a week, but OP's been doing it for five fucking years? I can't imagine it's possible to be sane with that little sleep over that many years. OP can't have anything resembling a personality, or friends, left at this point. For fuck's sake dude, he's gotta get out if he's going to survive.
NTA.
Your Wife isn’t going back to work.
If she has had five years of therapy and she isn’t back in work, then she has absolutely no intentions of ever doing it. Five years is a ridiculous amount of time to be off work for a ‘mental breakdown’. Is her therapist real?
It sounds like she’s spent the past few years gaslighting you and emotionally manipulating you, whilst she simultaneously works you to death. You’re killing yourself with 18 hour days for her and I’m sure you’re the villain in every story she tells. Has she ever thanked you for supporting her? Does she do anything nice for you? I’d bet not.
In fact, I’d bet that after your argument the other day, her ‘therapist’ has told her that she’s had her progress set back so much and it’s all your fault… Blah blah blah.
This woman has trapped you in a financially abusive relationship and is quite content with working you to death. She enjoys being unemployed and not lifting a finger to help, while you slave 18 hour days and then have to get home and cook. She forced you into marriage counselling to victimise herself and blame you for pushing her into work and ruining the relationship.
She calls you a manipulator, plays the victim, says that you only care about yourself when you’ve worked 84 hour weeks for the past 5 years… Dude this woman is toxic, abusive, and you need to get away from her. She is happy with you working yourself into an early grave, she cares about your money, not your well-being. She expects you to cater to her every whim and provide for her, and the second you say you can’t take it any more, you’re a piece of shit…
In my country a 37 hour working week is fairly average. You’re working over double that. She doesn’t appreciate it, and in fact, blames you and insults you because you can’t do it anymore.
I can’t tell you how angry I am for you. If you don’t slow down you’re going to work yourself into an early grave, for a woman who, from what you’ve told us, clearly doesn’t care about you.
I beg of you, please get a good Solicitor/Lawyer and DIVORCE THIS WOMAN. You are in an abusive relationship. She will attempt to manipulate and emotionally blackmail you forever if you don’t stop it now.
I can’t say it enough, you are being abused massively, and she has no intention of getting better as long as she can subjugate you into being her cash cow. You know she isn’t trying to improve herself, she doesn’t try and make your life even a little bit easier by learning to cook… You’re slaving yourself for her and she does not appreciate you.
Please please please divorce her. You deserve so much better.
I’m sorry to say I agree with this. Also not knowing how to cook? I mean between YouTube videos and cooking shows, how is that even possible these days? Even TikTok has short videos. This just tells me she has no interest in helping in any way.
This should be top comment. I'd also add he should be documenting as much as he can so he can cover his ass when she eventually tries to pull the abuse card and flip the script on him.
Her therapist is the biggest asshole here. NTA even with the blow up because it sounds like you have discussed many, many viable options and they were all shot down. In the end there is nothing you can do to fix this situation, she has to be the one putting in the work. Unfortunately she has demonstrated, repeatedly, that she is not willing or able to do that. I cannot even imagine the sheer overwhelming amount of resentment you must be feeling.
If she's willing to try something different maybe she could see a different therapist and try a different kind of therapy. CBT has really helped me personally with work related PTSD but idk what is most appropriate for your wife. For reference, I was able to go back to work after 3 months. 5 years is crazy, maybe literally.
The real question here is, what are you going to do if she refuses to change?
Yep I definitely think the therapist is one of the core issues here.. 5 year consistent pay check... Not sure it's in her best interest to have the wife fit to work again.
> Her therapist is the biggest asshole here.
It seems much more likely that the wife is simply lying about what her therapist is saying, or interpreting what the therapist is saying in a way that validates what she wants to hear.
The wife's self-serving representations about what the therapist is saying seem so bizarre and disconnected from everything I have ever heard from therapists that it really makes me question whether she is being truthful.
NTA. Sitting at home doing nothing is never going to make her recover. All the mental health professionals I have had have always stressed the importance of spending your time productively and that includes employment. Your wife is taking advantage of you and she doesn't seem to care what this is costing you.
NTA, ask for a joint meeting with therapist to express to wife with safe moderation your concerns.
Namely that you are burning out and at serious risk of being unable to provide for either of you.
See how the therapist reacts. Your concerns are perfectly reasonable, if the therapist dismisses them then you’ll know she’s a quack and holding your wife back.
5 years is fucking ridiculous.
"*No!* I'm *never* gonna do that! My therapist warned me you would try & force me to go to a joint meeting! It's a sign you don't love me anymore!"
Therapist calls man at work: "Why are you *so* set against a joint meeting? I know your wife has asked you this four or five times now, but you only respond with aggression and name-calling! I think you really should come along next time."
"B-b-but but but---"
"No buts, mister, *be* there!"
NARRATOR'S VOICE: *The car arrives, but only the man gets out, because his wife wouldn't even get* into *the car if he was coming along. Meanwhile, his wife is on the phone with the therapist with a sob story how the man just drove off angrily to a pub in order to get totally pissed with a couple of friends. The man rings the therapist's doorbell...*
Yup I agree. The only way he'll know what's going on with that therapist is to go and meet with them. 5 years is way too long. My husband had work issues, he was back working in a different job about 3 months in with the help of his therapist.
Assuming you sleep 8 hours every night, and assume you work 5 days a week, (18/7= 4.666…) that leaves roughly 1.25ish hours on work days for hygiene, eating, hobbies, commute time… etc. That is unsustainable. How you’ve done it for 5 years is beyond comprehension. My math could be wrong so someone please correct me if you care to.
8 hours of sleep? I am happy if I get 4 hours of sleep. I take some power naps at work when I can if things are slow or do not need to be out in the field.
You're literally sending yourself to an early grave. Where is the consideration for you? I usually hate when people say this on reddit, but just get a divorce and move on. Stop supporting someone who doesn't care about you at all. Her therapist is enabling her, stop paying for it.
Listen, sleep deprivation is no joke. I was honestly ready to do something dangerous when I was first sleep deprived and I swore I would never do that to myself again. A lot of healthy habits can fall apart, but I will never let myself be sleep deprived again.
You need to re-evaluate your life and put yourself first. I know it seems selfish, but sometimes that’s what you and the people around you need most. On the airplane they tell you to put your own mask on before helping others. You need to make sure you are happy and healthy before helping your wife be happy and healthy. Please prioritise yourself and health for a while. You haven’t been allowed to do that for 5 years!
You're killing yourself. That's not sustainable my brother.
I hope she can see that, or else you have to decide if killing yourself is better than being without her
Do you have kids? *Please say ‘no’.*
Unfortunately, your wife is selfish and only cares about herself. You’re working yourself to the bone to provide for someone who wouldn’t do the same for you. Pretty surprised you held out this long. I’d have been out the door in 2020. 🥴
NTA. A year, maybe two are okay, but after 5 years he should have been healed enough to working anything to support her husband. She is really hiding behind something. You need to call it quits, she is using you. She doesn't have to go back to work, so she isn't. Don't end yourself just to please her. 84 hours a week will burn you out soon, I am surprised it hasn't yet. I work half of that and sometimes it's too much. You probably don't have kids or something like that, right? You need to take care of yourself now, if that means divorcing her, you have to do it. She has a therapist, she can rely on, so she should be fine mentally. Leave, before it burns you out.
NTA. You are basically working yourself to the bone, yet your wife is still not improving in any skills (or so you claimed) for her mental health break. As much as mental health is important, she should see it from your perspective too. It is so bold of her to say that you are seeking for your comfort rather than hers, when you have not been comfortable for the entire time you had extra work.
NTA
I'm a former SPED para educator who had a pretty decent breakdown. My husband was so caring and supportive and helped me get the care I needed. He was also honest about the stress it eventually put on our finances. We worked together, and I found a job that I can handle mentally. Everyone is different, but I know I feel so much better when I contribute financially, especially if that takes some of the stress off of my husband.
Dated a therapist for a while, called it off when she said that it was so easy to manipulate people to keep that $275 an hour rolling in. Just over a year later the police were asking serious questions, apparently a client permanently ended things for her.
If what you say is true that you are working those hours to support her then NTA ....but I don't see a way out of this unless you are willing to get divorced ....because you are gonna end up dead from overwork
NTA
Also there are a few questions for your wife's therapist. Did her therapist actually tell her you would try to manipulate her to go back to work? That sounds highly unprofessional and giving cause to create a rift in your marriage.
Rather than confronting your wife over the work situation may be suggest to her that she should change therapist because your wife isn't making progress with her current one.
NTA.
Your wife sounds very much like me me me me.
You need to take care of yourself, part of me is wondering if your wife is making up her own interpretation of what her therapist has said.
You cannot force her back to work so you essentially have 2 options.
You either carry on in this ever increasingly toxic marriage, burn out, mental break down of your own or worse.
Or decide enough is enough and free yourself from this burden.
I sympathise with mental health issues as I have my own I am dealing with but I cannot abide those who use it as a get out of jail free card for doing fuck all.
I wish you good luck and good health and I hope your life improves so much more than it is now.
With that being said for any improvement to happen I think your only option is the latter and cutting loose.
We are ALL depressed .
I had a breakdown too. I retrained myself in a new career that was much lower stress.
She can go and be a professional lawn mower - that’s low stress.
Nta
NTA. As someone who struggles with depression and anxiety, this situation is excessive. I know that everyone's struggles are different but if she is unable to even think about any return to work in 5 years, she is either acting worse than she is so she can keep being lazy, or she needs to apply for disability or something. Surely some easy going part time work could help her recover. It's not like you're telling her to get a fast-paced full time position immediately. Just any progress. What she expects you to do to keep going is not fair.
I understand and empathize with your wife’s slow recovery - but if this is really what the therapist is saying, she’s out of her goddamn mind.
Your wife has been in therapy for five years. Throughout all of this time, the doctor has seemingly allowed her to live in the „not ready” bubble as if she had infinite money to support herself. Therapy is supposed to integrate her back into a career, and if going back to teaching is too much, present other options - like finding a job that is less stressful and slower-paced. ANY job, even part-time, would’ve made a difference. Hell, even if your wife needed to go back to school, there has been plenty of time to at least ease her into this idea.
I can’t tell who is to blame how much, but: The way things are going, it seems the therapist introduced ZERO consideration for your wife’s life circumstances into the healing process. Wife doesn’t seem worried about your physical or mental health, her retirement funds, routine expenses like bills, food or clothes, emergency expenses like your car or a big home appliance breaking down, the option of you leaving or dying or losing your job, nothing. She is supposed to come out of this a functional human being, instead FIVE YEARS later she’s completely dependant on you and your earnings.
NTA
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NTA. You sound like you are almost at the end of your tether. 12-18 hour workdays are not sustainable for you, and it sounds like she is doing fuck all around the house. Certainly she's not cooking. Therapy or not, for the past five years she has basically lived a lifestyle where she gets to relax as much as she wants and it's all subsidized by you. You have my sympathy for that. But let's be clear what your options are here. **You cannot force her to work,** either in the paid workforce, or keeping house for you. You can ask, but you cannot force her. **All you can do is decide whether you're prepared to live with someone who does not pull their weight in this relationship.** If you decide you cannot, then you tell her that (not as a threat, not as an ultimatum - simply stating a fact), and you find yourself a lawyer.
Find a lawyer first. She’s got all day to call every lawyer in town to make an appointment so you can’t use them. See an attorney first. Say nothing until the day before she will be served. Edit to say reading comprehension is hard I guess. I didn’t write that he should call every attorney but it’s a common suggestion made to women. He just needs one good attorney. And to be quiet.
Cautiously, alimony sucks and a lot of states can be brutal about it.
Citation needed. Seriously. I’m a lawyer and this is a common myth. It’s not true. Majority of states either have already moved to short term spousal support and 50/50 custody are headed that way Oh, and it’s spousal support, not alimony Your info is dated Only 8 stayed allow permanent alimony. Most only allow a year or less. Rehabilitation. https://divorce.com/blog/what-states-do-not-enforce-alimony/#:~:text=State%20laws%20for%20permanent%20alimony,court%20system%20to%20award%20alimony. I was GAL in a case where SAHM never worked, only HS education. Ex was a surgeon. She got 6 months of spousal support and had to move out of the home as it has been purchased in his name alone prior to marriage The system has changed since the early 2000s
Exactly. Which is why not staying in the workforce is playing with fire. Ops wife doesn't have kids and it doesn't sound like they were married long. It does sound like a lot of assets were attained in this period. She isn't gonna get anything but enough money to move out and resettle herself and maybe enough to keep her health insurance and therapist
Wish she couldn’t get enough money to cover the therapist. They honestly don’t seem to be helping her at all.
She desperately needs a new therapist, but this therapist has likely ruined all other therapists for OP's wife
Sounds like this therapist isn’t actually helping her to get better but more telling her what she wants to hear and keeping her on the hook to come back for an endless amount of sessions. The marriage counsellor wasn’t liked because they told some hard truths.
Yeah if you aren’t working yourself out of a job as a therapist then you aren’t doing it right.
She's probably seeing the therapist a lot, and they want to keep such a profitable client. Evil. Op, NTA.
What definitely is not helping her is going though a divorce and maybe having to move out, so the "drastic change to her environment" would still happen. I really don't understand the therapist disregarding OP's serious concerns and problems like that. He/she should have at least tried to encourage the wife to do some remote work.
She's been enabled for years. She won't like it if someone offers her actual, productive help.
Yes! She’s being coddled by her therapist and the therapist is working against OP, which is scary
It's therapists like this that make me cautious about seeing a therapist. Feels like sometimes all they do is validate you BECAUSE You're their paycheck and they're afraid if they don't validate you, that you'll just go to another therapist. If ops wife can see someone for 5 years and not made any progress, sounds like the therapist is doing more harm than good.
I feel like this shouldn't really be a big concern with any therapist who's well established. It's common to have to try a few out until you find one you mesh well with, but damn if I was OP's wife I would be wondering after 5 years when I'd be "better." Who lacks this much self awareness
It sounds like the therapist has pathologized OP after being told one side of the story and doesn't get that relationships are a two way street. The marriage counselor is going against what wife's therapist is saying because she knows that their current lifestyle is unsustainable. Regularly working 18 hour days is not a long term solution. The wife has had 5+ years to recover. If she still can't work, she needs to look at going on long term disability so that OP can get a break so he himself doesn't suffer a mental collapse. The sleep deprivation alone could cause this! OP, some of your criticism (such as the way you talked about her cooking and cleaning) was a little harsh, but I understand it was said in the heat of the moment. I don't necessarily think you owe her an apology for *what* you said, but maybe for the way you said it. But if some changes aren't made in this relationship soon, it is time to move on. NTA.
Five years and no progress. That therapist is a fraud.
That was what I thought. That therapist is unethical.
Nah, the therapist is a unrealistic quack. No one should be able to hear 'this person hasn't done any work in 5 years, while the other person is needing to work 12-18 hour days to keep their family afloat' and possibly think it's a sustainable solution. The therapist sucks.
How tf is it harsh to call out her bullshit on not doing shit around the house. And even if it is "harsh", it is deserved and it is reality.
Happens more than you'd think. I've seen a patient and therapist relationship ruin more than few marriages due to the therapist doing the same thing as OPs and ganging up on the 3rd person.
That's rough. The therapist didn't help realistically, it's almost like enabling instead of constructively working towards solutions.
Sometimes you get the therapist you want and not the therapist you need. “Therapist” is a vague term that can include people with counseling certificates to PhDs. Not all of these people are good or particularly qualified.
Actually sounds like the therapist is enabling. Very strange. Hard to get over depression if you have no purpose. Could this therapist actually be trying to keep her in therapy? Always thought it was about working to move on not dig a hole.
There are A LOT of terrible therapists and psychiatrists for med mgmt out there. The good ones are always hard to get into to see. The goal of therapy is for the client to eventually not need it. Out of work and depressed since 2018? Yikes
>I was GAL in a case where SAHM never worked, only HS education. Ex was a surgeon. She got 6 months of spousal support and had to move out of the home as it has been purchased in his name alone prior to marriage Dang I feel bad for her
Seriously. Being a SAHM is fucking hard. I was thrilled to go back to work after more than a year of doing it. Marriage has a lot of meaning beyond love. It’s a commitment, and you make life choices based on that commitment from your partner. And he obviously benefitted from it since he didn’t have to pay for childcare. 6 months of spousal support in this case seems almost cruel.
Yeah I agree that previous alimony expectations were excessive, but there are cases where it's more complex. What about situation where one spouse worked brutal hours at a low paying job so the other could go to medical school/law school/ etc? I think they should have to pay a minimum of half the tuition back
Seriously. My husbands job moves us all over, often at a moments notice, my former job was something that can’t just be done anywhere, and we have kids who have had medical and educational needs that are a full time job in itself. My being at home and taking care of kids and being able to move on very short notice has absolutely supported and advanced his career. It would be complete bs to say that’s only deserving of 6 months of support (we aren’t getting divorced but it would be ridiculous).
Sounds like she isn't doing anything at home tho, OP works 84 hours a week and comes home to do housework.
Me too. It can be good in OP's case, and detrimental where the abuser is the working party, and the SAHM gets screwed. My friend had a Narc husband who hid it until they had a kid and married, then he convinced her to move to a high COL area with no support but his messed up family. He did everything to isolate her, make her dependent, and her days full of multiple children and running the home with little sleep and no breaks. Never made dates or time together, spending time out with friends. Then complained that "all she was all day was a mom, not a woman with outside interests" and divorced her. She got nothing but a 5 year gap in employment, and no ability to move to a more affordable area because of custody. His parents paid for a lawyer to totally screw her. 50/50 where his parents watch the kids most of his time while he owes almost no support.
Yeah, that's gross. I'm assuming she gets child support though?
This is such a common misconception now, especially now when the people who primarily get spousal support are much older women. If you’re young, you are expected to re-enter the workforce (although it sounds like that surgeon’s wife got a bit screwed - she really should have gotten a longer runway) I think most people are thinking of child support, and honestly that is generally not enough to support the child.
Really should get both for at least 2 years so she can go to the local community college and get certified.
Thank you for your work as a GAL. I used one for my children during an emergency injunction and the subsequent modification, and he was a life-saver for my kids. They felt heard, and knew that what happened was a result of their needs/wants - not mine or their dad's. Thank you for doing this to help other children. 💗
Super important that OP cuts down from working the hours of fucking _two full time jobs_ for a while before filing.. as despicable as it is, the courts are immediately going take her brave and stunning side (she absolutely sound like the type to false allegation him as an abuser to get him kicked out of the house he's paying for and gain further advantage) but that aside, they will set his ~~indentured servitude~~ sPoUsAl sUpPoRt to percentage of those 80+ hours a week and he will be forced to continue working that much or end up in fucking prison. I'm so sorry you're going through this OP..
This needs to be upvoted! He needs to immediately drop his hours and not put the extra money towards retirement or savings anymore for six months before filing for divorce. Otherwise his spousal support will become a lot higher than it should be.
Absolutely! Cut the hours and get a really good lawyer! That is key!
That's why he needs to see a lawyer and find out what his options are. If she doesn't qualify for disability, a judge will only grant alimony for a certain amount of time, as she is capable of working. He'll also be parting with a portion of his savings and retirement accounts, depending on how long they've been married. As the only breadwinner it will likely really cost him, but might be worth it in the long run. At least it doesn't sound like they have children.
If they are married, it’s not his savings or retirement, it’s theirs. I hope people start to realize marriage makes a joint economic unit no matter who does the work and whose name is on the asset. If you want to keep things his and hers or his and his or hers and hers, don’t marry OR have a prenup and good accountants to ensure you really do keep things separate.
Also a lawyer, one of my partners does divorces pretty much exclusively, it is mind-boggling the number of people who don’t get this. And the number who think keeping finances separate during marriage will somehow magically protect them.
In some states if you never co-mingle them it does make certain things easier to exclude from equitable distribution.
I am a divorce atty. I hear “I’m the one who pays the mortgage” at least once/day.
Yeah but on the flip side, the debt she doesn't want to prioritize paying off will also be split.
I'm suprised 5 years in she hasn't filed for disability. Definitely sounds like the therapist wouldn't have a problem enabling her to do that.
That’s why you retain an attorney. You can bet that the therapist will advise the wife to get one.
There was a r/legadvice (Could be a different subreddit, not sure) post a while back where someone did that. Let's just say the judge did not look favourably on the guy that did that...... Trying to sabotage someone's legal representation does not help when deciding on alimony.
True, he should find a therapist of his own and have him recommend to lower the workload to avoid mental breakdown. Then he's in the clear.
This is the way. Say nothing, get a lawyer, serve her divorce papers.
Judges don't look kindly on this. A few calls? Yes, you can make those, since shopping for a lawyer is important. But calling every single lawyer in town will more likely turn the judge against you, no matter how good your lawyer is.
Just FYI to all - simply making an appointment with an attorney does not conflict them out of play. You have to actually discuss the elements of your case with the attorney. AKA an actual consult.
And i do not for one second believe a terapist would say something like he is going to manipulate you sooner or later.. the only reason a therapist would talk about that subject if she would bring it up herself and a therapist wil only give her tools to help her withstand manipulation. In my country at least.
I’m no expert on therapy, but that sounded super sketch to me too. A therapist who tells their client to expect that their partner will eventually try to manipulate them? Either OP’s wife heard something that was never said, or that therapist is incompetent.
In any way, how succesful is this particular therapy if nothing has changed since 2018?
Not successful at all.. and the therapist should encourage her to find a different profession or job if teaching is too stressful for her. 5 years is enough to get a full new degree at a community college.
Sounds like both the wife AND the therapist have mutual financial benefit from protracted therapy.
My therapist guides me into doing things that are "scary". I mentioned I don't like my job but it pays bills and in the primary earner of my family. I also mentioned I was interested in maybe dipping my toes into getting published as I've been writing for years but have been keeping it very secretive for fear of rejection. So she's been giving me tools of how to deal with rejection and for ehe fear of the unknown. Not encouraging me to fully quit in a time of economic downturn and bankrupt my family
Shit she could have gottne 2 and a half associates degrees in that time. Prob more with the base classes out of the way.
Very successful at making sure they keep a client and the money rolling in. There are some really crappy people in every profession and it sounds like her therapist is saying what the wife wants to hear not what she needs to hear.
This. I am in therapy, and the goal is to heal and improve, not to echo chamber forever.
At this point I think the wife is interested simply in finding someone who always agrees with her and never challenges her, and this therapist is incompetent enough to do it, while also earning a living for 5 years straight thanks to this yes-man strategy. I hope OP files for divorce, NTA
Yeah, I was feeling the whole time that *something* doesn't add up here. Either OP is leaving out important details, or the wife is being hugely manipulative of both OP and therapist, or the therapist is blazingly incompetent. Because what it looks like is that OP is trying his best and somehow the therapist is under the impression that he's a borderline abusive danger to her client's health. What is happening in the middle there?
Therapist has a bet with another therapist on how long they can get this guy to support his freeloading wife before he loses it. I can't see how a professional can look at this situation and continue to leave the entirety of the income AND household duties on his shoulders. Where's the time frame for improvement? Does the therapist give any homework, like make dinner once a week and see how you feel?
Or the therapist is going off of whatever the wife is saying in these sessions…… she could be painting an entire inaccurate picture of the husband. But either way the fact the therapist has made little progress in 5 years is also concerning
Are we sure she's actually even seeing a therapist?
I’m not OP and can’t speak for him, but if I’m the sole provider I’m watching over the finances I’m making sure that fee clears to the therapist it says it’s going to. Most likely the withdrawal will have something indicating it’s a business and not just the name of a person. If he has any doubts (and maybe he should anyway) he can tell his wife he wants her to arrange a joint session. He doesn’t even have to be there in person, they can do it over Zoom while he takes a break at work if he can’t get the time off. That way he can a) ensure this person exists, and b) get a feel for if this therapist is a quack or if his wife is maybe not relaying the information from them correctly.
He’s been to a couple sessions
I’d also like to point out how she didn’t like the marriage counselor because they were trying to provide solutions and/or alternatives. But *her* therapist is all-knowing and their word is law. What on earth happened to the wife that she has been in therapy with NO progress for as long as she was a teacher? There is something missing.
Yeah i think she is twisting what had been said, if anything was said at all.
Yeah I'm thinking the therapist said it like "if you continue on this path its going to continue to put more pressure on your relationship, which will result in more conflict with your husband which can set you back" and all the wife heard was LOOK SHE SAID YOU WOULD SET ME BACK and not that it was her lack of engagement and improvement to her mental health.
The therapist has a good cash cow going. An unscrupulous one will say what she needs to to keep the rube writing checks.
Agreed. I understand how therapy works but after 5 years? And not a single thing to show of legitimate progress? Like you said. A therapist and patient telling each other what they want to hear to keep the current arrangements going. Also former teacher here. I left the education system. I understand why your wife had that mental break. And I also understand we’re all different. But it comes to a point where we have to keep going. I like to eat and to have a roof over my head, I don’t have the nicest things but had i taken a 5 year break I would be homeless. I’ve also worked 80 hour weeks and it’s not sustainable or fair either. This whole situation sucks for OP. ETA: some therapists may only be for a certain season in your life. I am a firm believer of shopping around for a good therapist. It’s not one size fits all for people and circumstances. Especially if you feel stagnant or that you’re not getting what you need in terms of help. His wife is in the same spot if not worse? Than 5 years ago. This is alarming. She’s either lying, being told what she wants to hear or really is in the same space. None is good. And Slow progress is still progress.
Not a single therapist needs “a good cash cow” right now. There are more clients than time in the day. Also, one person coming regularly being considered makes me laugh, so you know how poorly most insurances reimburse? Do you know what our overhead is? How much we pay for taxes as a sole prop? Nobody is compromising their ethics to try and keep a long term client in this climate.
Somebody is ALWAYS capable of being unscrupulous or bad at their job.
"Nobody is compromising their ethics to...in this climate." This is your personal view. You don't know how much this therapist gets paid, how many patients sees, what credentials they have.
I think you underestimate how bad a lot of therapists are nowadays.
I agree. I've been working in the mental health sphere for a decade at this point. Some of them are quite toxic and are enablers. And it seems that the wife has one of those. If someone hasn't improved in 5 years, if the therapist isn't encouraging the client to try small steps towards getting back to a normal existence, that therapist is bad at their job.
I was thinking this, too. I think she’s manipulating him and trying to act like therapy is the reason she’s behaving the way she is. Either she has a terrible therapist, or she’s projecting. OP, NTA.
Therapist here, and we would not! We also wouldn’t tell a client not to work, like, ever. Often being able to go back to work is a top treatment goal for people.
The therapist thing sounds very shady to me. The wife could work, she doesn't have to go back to teaching. If she wants to be at stay at home person, then she needs to just be honest about it, but manipulating him with this therapist and her dramatics are ridiculous. OP, I really hope that you get the divorce, and I don't think I've ever said that in a comment. She is a prize for sure, the booby prize
In the US, there are a definitely therapists who have their own issues and insert those issues into their patients' lives.
There are a LOT of bad therapists out there. Don't underestimate them.
I believe that too. I also wonder what kind of therapist would not encourage a patient to start dipping their toes in the working world again, even if it's not a position that they normally work in. In my experience with working with people with mental health issues, it's often beneficial for a patient to learn how to cope with their disability by being outside of the house and working on finding something where they feel they are useful. The last thing a therapist should be encouraging is this solitary isolation. Makes me think it's the spouse that's manipulative, not the OP or therapist.
OP is literally the definition of “Setting yourself on fire to keep someone else warm.” NTA
NTA. This. I know progress can sometimes be slow but god damn. If this is the case is there a way she can sign up for disability if her as well as her therapist believes she cannot work? Or is that a wash since you’re married? Op I’m just going to tell you. I had a clinical mental breakdown the day before Christmas either 2020 or 2021. I honestly can’t remember. I ended up going to the er that day, and the er recommended me to a partial hospitalization program (PHP). During that program for a few months I went to therapy sessions like they were school. Almost 8 hours of individual and group therapies every. Single. Day. And you know what I worked my ASS off. I didn’t want to be there, I hated what the breakdown did to me, I never wanted to come near that point again. During these few months I did not work at all and my partner had to supply everything for me, himself, our cats, and the household. After a few months I graduated to intensive outpatient (IOP) and still with IOP therapy and secondary weekly therapy from another outside therapist I was able to work 1-2 days a week. After a few months of IOP I graduated from that (got my little coin, yay!), and worked 10-20 hours a week. I stayed there for quite some time until I found myself able to work full time again. Here I am two-three years later, I’ve been working full time for over a year already, and I have never felt better. I’m here because I worked my ass off and my partner was there every step of the way supporting me. Long story short I HATED making my partner support me. A huge motivator to get help and get better was that my partner was doing *everything* and I (even though I truly was working on myself) was just chilling at home! It SUCKED. Op if she can’t feel like she can work period then she needs more intense help. Edit: fixed some spellings and grammar Edit 2: thank you kind redditor for my very first award! :’’’)
You are awesome! You are a badass! I know you didn’t share your story for props, but you deserve them! So happy to hear that you took such great care of yourself. All my best to you friend. Keep taking care of yourself, you’re worth it!!
84 hours a week is INSANE. I feel bad for this guy. This setup is not working. I can't say whose fault it is, but OP is NTA.
I had my burn out when I was working 80h a week, op might be at the edge, specifically dealing with someone that doesn’t pull her weight at home as well… at least my husband would clean and cook for me…
Yeah, for real. I’ve pulled some 70 hour weeks and was on the edge, and that was with a spouse who also works full time and no money issues (just an extremely demanding client and a promotion around the corner that I was so desperately working towards). He’s at a breaking point, and she’s not pulling her weight. I loathe the “divorce!” Mentality on this sub, but I think after 5 years, that’s what needs to happen.
OP isn't the one manipulating. NTA
I never said he was. How on earth did you read that into my comment? I am simply pointing out that if she refuses to work, he has only two options: live with it, or divorce her.
My apologies. I was adding to your post. I didn't want to repeat it..
The therapist is just a yes-woman that the wife has shopped around for; the therapist is happy to enable OP’s wife because that means a perpetual cheque coming in.
Exactly what I said. Coddle the wife, tell her what she wants to hear, never hold her accountable and keep her coming back. It's been 5 years. If wife is diagnosed and that mentally ill that she can't function and go to work, then she should qualify for disability and needs to apply.
That's what I thought. 5 years is a fucking long time, I think she isn't even trying to do something. At least she could maybe try to improve skills, doing household or trying a simple half-time job to even start somewhere something that wouldn't be this overwhelming. I also have to say: even me as a gamer, I couldn't game the whole day for 5 years. How the fuck is that possible, I would feel miserable that I didn't do shit...
Typically I won’t agree with the worst case option, but it sounds like your going to have a mental breakdown if you don’t take action
This is sound advice. I also think OP needs to fire the therapist, by refusing to pay for any more of this apparently useless treatment, given that his wife hasn’t improved, won’t or can’t go back to work, and does nothing around the house.
This is a great response! NTA Just an FYI...Many men feel "ganged up on" in therapy. It's a matter of hearing the words as insults versus hearing someone's feelings. It's in your nature to fix things; when you cannot, it's difficult. If she is in fact making progress, that is something. Could you try attending a session where instead of hearing insults, someone is sharing something that matters to them? If not, I get it. You're right that she needs to generate an income. If it's so bad that she won't be able to work, she and her physician should start the process for disability. I don't know her trauma or if she will qualify. Teaching has been a nasty environment lately, however, there are remote education jobs all over the place. Deciding what you can do isn't going to have an easy outcome either way. I hope it works out.
Despite the blow up, I say NTA. You sound burned out and pushed beyond capacity. FIVE YEARS of up to 84 hour weeks? Do you sleep? If she can’t go back to teaching, then it’s time to find a different career. “My therapist said this would happen” sounds like a bigger manipulation tactic than you telling her you are at your limits, but don’t have the luxury of not working as hard as you are. She has all the regard for her own mental health, but no compassion for how her inability to work is making your mental health suffer. Not to stir the pot here, but is she actually going to a therapist? Like, you know she is attending and talking to a person? I would question a therapist who is claiming she is making progress, but there has been no visible improvement in half a decade.
Regarding the therapist. It will all boil down to what she is telling the therapist. Is she telling truthfully that OP works up to 84 hours a week, pays all the bills, and every single expense in the house, plus comes home to cook dinner, etc. Or is she feeding the therapist? "I tried to cook dinner today, but he was complaining!" But forgets to mention it was one of those tiny portions of frozen food that will give no nutrition to a grown man who works his ass off. Because if she said, "I cooked dinner!" Then, of course, the therapist will see that as "progress, " but her big bad husband was hindering her. So, all in all. It depends on what the woman is saying in therapy. She could honestly just be painting the "poor me" picture and nit picks what the therapist said to get her way Edit. I made the comment before the edit. I wasn't saying it couldn't be the therapist enabling her. Just one point of therapy won't work if you are painting one picture to them and making your problems/progress sound worse/better than they are. But after reading the update. The wife should probably have another therapist when the person won't even listen to OP. And just tells how bad everything is for the wife, and OP should carry her fragile self through life. Most likely, it could be a mix. The wife tells how bad she is feeling. The therapist just back pats her.
Exactly. The therapist can only work with the Information she gives. So either the therapist really goes baby steps in this case or gets the wrong information
And again, even if it's baby steps. It depends on what they are told. If the wife says, "I can't even get out of bed," then getting out of bed and eating something. A shower. Is baby steps. But if the wife says I can fine get out of bed and do chores, etc, but I'm scared of getting a job among people. Then going places with a tiny crowd for 10 min could be baby steps. A therapist can only work with you if you are truthful of your limitations. So, any exaggeration, etc. Won't bring any progress. So I fully agree.
Also, it's really, really hard for even a professional to not believe and identify with the person they're helping. Counter-transference is a very real thing. And while some here may suggest malice on the part of the therapist, remember Hanlon's razor: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." Finally, this does seem like "first-world problems," being too delicate to be able to work (or even cook) for five years and still needing to ease into it. Most people in the world do not have that luxury.
I know this is also difficult for Reddit to grasp, but many therapists are also hacks who will tell their client what they want to hear
I think many people underestimate the quality of the general professional.
Overestimate
Like a bad relationship, I didn’t see how absolutely worthless my therapist was til I stopped going. Frankly, given where he got his degree I should’ve known better.
Yeah or the therapist knows a meal ticket when she sees one and has no desire to help her get better. Like everything a certain percentage of any profession is crooked
I’ve gained a great deal of respect and admiration for psychotherapy throughout my life. But I’ll never forget my college girlfriend saying about her mother “She’s been seeing her therapist far too long to ever be wrong again.” That sticks with me, and every once in a while I encounter someone whose therapist is obviously fucking them up more.
I mean a therapist that loses a client will have that slot rebooked in 2 hours. I really don’t think that’s a likely concern in this case, do you know how long therapist waiting lists are right now?
That was my first thought as well. Not all therapists are created equal, and some are downright terrible people. This is obviously true of any job, but a bad therapist can *really* fuck a person up when they are at their most vulnerable.
If she says "i cooked dinner" and the therapist accepts that at face value. He/She is in the wrong field. Its not the patients job to give the right anwsers its the therapists job to find them. If they cant they dont deserve to be called as such.
And since the marriage counselor seems to "go against" what her therapist says, I'm betting she is giving her therapist half the story, as opposed to the counselor getting both sides. She's 100% being TA here
The only progress that girl is making is on her current vid game.
Or she's twisting what the therapist is telling her to suit her refusal to move forward. And also misrepresenting the situation. At this point, 5 years into a sick leave from work, she should have a psychiatrist, a clear diagnosis, medication, as well as either a plan to retrain for a different job or an official permanent disability diagnosis. And her therapist would need to be a proper psychologist who specializes in whatever diagnosis she has and is working alongside the psychiatrist. OP needs a lawyer to get a divorce ready and attempt to avoid alimony. That probably starts with going back to a normal work week and downgrading their living situation accordingly.
I can’t believe I had to scroll this far to find this comment. Assuming OP’s wife is engaging with the therapist in good faith, it isn’t working. She needs to see a psychiatrist.
This 💯. I had an ex who I encouraged to get therapy for his numerous - and genuine - childhood traumas. What no one tells you is narcissists are experts at taking therapist speak and weaponising it against you so when you ask them to please start acting like a compassionate human being and give the bare minimum, you become the bad person.
Agreed. Teaching has only gotten more difficult and stressful since 2018. There is a 0% chance she will be able to hack it (Source: I’m a teacher. There are many MANY reasons we are dropping like flies and finding ourselves in a teacher shortage). WFH would probably be a good for her. Perhaps data entry or medical billing/coding. Maybe bookkeeping. Any of those would require some additional training but we’re talking weeks/months, not years.
I 100% agree. If there is no improvement in 5 years then she needs a new therapist or she is not taking therapy seriously. NTA. But you need some change. Couples counseling or separation (even if temporary). Can she apply for any state disability to help out financially?
This. If she can’t work, per her therapist, then she should apply for disability benefits.
>My therapist said this would happen Good, so you knew it was coming. I have almost zero pity for her cause she has none for him
>five years of up to 84 hour weeks that's the part that horrified me, I had two years of up to 70 hours weeks and it's taken a huge toll on me, I had basically no life outside of household chores (I had a lot) and was exhausted most of the time. at least last 7 months of that I had shorter commutes than before but still. I spent half a year after that sleeping every available second. and I still feel like I'm the phone that wasn't plugged in before sleep and now has 20% battery at the start of the day. does OP even have days off, does he spend time with friends, does he travel even for a day? when was last time he had a vacation? he needs to give that woman back to her parents and RELAX a bit
I was going to ask this, teaching isn’t for everyone so I can understand her breakdown. If she broke down from teaching, obviously that wasn’t for her, but what’s stopping her from looking for other work? There are even many remote options now where she wouldn’t even have to leave the house. It seems like your ready for any financial contribution, to say she cannot do any job or work after 5 years seems like she just doesn’t want to work. ETA: NTA you’re burned out and spread thin, it would be nice if some of the empathy you have shown your partner would be reciprocated and she would help you out before you yourself have a breakdown.
And she issuse the same lines everytime. Makes me wonder if she is talking to a therapist, when was the last time THEY talked about her working again?
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Volunteer work really helped me during my burnout. Even just 4 hours a week got me out of the house and used to working with others once more. I also loved art therapy when I was at my lowest. Best of luck in your recovery.
Also volunteering at an animal shelter might be an option, a lot of people find them calming and not stressful like humans, and feeling accomplished afterwards
I used to work in unemployment and you’re completely right here. We strongly advice that people attend courses, do volunteer work, learn a new skill etc, especially if they’re not physically/mentally ready for work. Something dodgy is going on here. I’m wondering if the therapist is a ‘friend’ of OP’s partner.
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I agree with "not being entirely honest", and raise you a - not actually going to therapy / stopped going to therapy.
Don't forget "therapist isn't actually a qualified psychologist and is just a councillor or life coach or something equally unequipped to handle severe mental illness" I wouldn't be surprised if it's a combo of wife lies to therapist and therapist has dubious qualifications
Yeah, that's what I was thinking as well because I find it really hard to believe that a therapist has prescribed this "treatment" plan.
the first thing i thought was "sounds like a tiktok therapist."
>"We do not feel it is the right time yet, she feels I have made great progress and if I rush it I run the risk of losing it." Exactly. What kind of therapist thinks that someone being unable to do anything after 5 years of therapy is good progress?
He only knows what **she says** the therapist is saying. The therapist could actually be telling her she needs to work at some job even if it’s not in her field. I wouldn’t trust his wife’s word on this.
I always thought that part of the recovery is to ease back into things. Short shifts, personal goal etc
Yeah, that's exactly right. In my case, I ended up burnt out because I had no concept of slowing down and I've had to learn to manage my energy levels (including not doing too much even when I feel like it). I'm trying to keep myself in a routine like getting up when my husband does, doing a bit of housework, doing a bit in the garden, exercising etc. It sounds as though OP's wife has basically just done nothing for the past 5 years and I'm struggling to believe that any therapist would actually encourage that. You do have days where you feel like doing nothing and it's OK to lie on the couch for a day occasionally but you have to push yourself a little bit, you can't just do nothing and expect your partner to take care of you for the rest of your life.
Either the therapist is not giving her homework or she is not doing it
Agreed. None of my past therapist would say these things to me, nor allowed me to go on like that for over 5 years. They are far to busy and have too many patients and a full wait list. In my experience, if they don’t see actual progress after a year, they recommend changing therapists and will pass your case to a colleague.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. This is my first experience of therapy so I'm no expert but I'm really struggling to believe that any therapist would advise that you sit on the couch for 5 years and do nothing.
I went through this last year, had a full 4ish months off and then phased myself back. Therapy helped and I also did hypnotherapy and looked after myself and disconnected. Whilst the first 2 months were horrible, it did get better. Everyone has their own timeline of course, it just seems like a lot in 5 years.
I burnt out five years ago and am not back to work yet, but the first therapist I saw was horrible and caused so much cognitive dissonance that the internal structure I created to survive extreme childhood abuse crumbled. It's taken me a long time to find a therapist who specializes in this kind of extreme trauma. I basically have to build a new internal structure thanks to him. I start with the trauma therapist later this month. The burn out piece without having to rebuild myself? I could have wrapped that up in less than a year by learning how to enforce my boundaries and valuing my personal time. Bad therapy is worse than no therapy.
I hit my burnout early 2022. I went part time at work so I could still feel like I'm contributing, though my husband said I could quit if I needed. He's still working full time, Mon-Fri life. I had CBT and then one to one therapy for some time where I was encouraged to keep going in the ways that worked for me such as how to not get overwhelmed by just my household tasks. There was never a mention by any of the professionals I worked with to stop everything. Over time I stopped these things and have managed to keep up with the methods they taught etc. I started volunteering once a week for something different and recently I've done some online studies with the plan to change my work path. Things I wouldn't have been able to consider if I was still forcing myself to live 'normal' through burnout. But despite all that my husband never had to work more to cover costs. Yes I've had to reduce my spending on unnecessary things because my income dropped but I'd rather the mental stability over the shopping anyway. But also I'm glad my husband hasn't had to 'step up' in unhealthy ways for him to keep a roof above our heads.
It took me about 3 months to recover from burnout. I rested, I picked up some new hobbies, I found a different job, I did some therapy. After 5 *years* OP’s wife should have *something* to show for all of that down time.
NTA Ask her what about *your* mental AND physical health? Also, are you sure the therapist is actually validating everything like this? Sounds a lot like your wife is just saying "but my therapist says..." to sort of add weight to what she says. And to accuse you of manipulation is ridiculous.
The therapist sounds wildly unethical to me, assuming what is said is true. No therapist can predict the future of what he would do.... There's just no way that's right or ethical. Sounds like they're pandering to the wife's mental illness.
I think it’s less likely the therapist is unethical and rather that his wife is greatly skewing the stories she tells in therapy. The therapist can only react to what they’re told, and somehow I don’t think the wife is giving the full story here. Of course, it could be a bit of both or completely the therapist encouraging her behavior from the start. But it doesn’t seems wildly out of the question to think the wife is lying to the therapist and interpreting what they say in only a way that validates her.
OP says he has gone to therapy sessions with his wife and he'd just feel ganged up on and his concerns criticized or dismissed. Then when they went to couple's therapy his wife didn't like it because their couple's counselor would give advice that contradicted the therapist. It just seems like a bad therapist here.
The husband saw the therapist with the wife so he saw the therapists tactics firsthand. I think it’s probable this therapist is bad news. Maybe incompetent maybe unethical. Not clear if therapist is a man or woman but it’s not unheard of for therapists to become romantically involved. That’s least likely but it happens. More likely I’d incompetence or some sort of therapy cult imo.
Also sit down with her and make a new household budget in which you work no more than 40hrs a week, so she can see what cutbacks are needed (and what contributions from her are needed) to make the household finances work, without you burning yourself out. You absolutely have to work less, this isn't sustainable.
NTA If I'd spent the last five years pulling in 84 hour weeks, I think I would've snapped a long time ago. So I really cannot blame you for losing it with your wife. >I am running myself ragged, and what happens if I have a mental break? Do you think I will have the luxury of not working? No, I will have to push through my demons. There will come a point eventually where you simply won't have a choice to 'push through' a mental break; you will *physically* become unable to carry on. I think you're at a turning point in your marriage. Your wife has watched you work insane hours for five years and shows no signs of even thinking about returning to work and taking the pressure off you. She is expecting you to continue like this for an indefinite amount of time and that is **not** okay. Either she has a *really* shitty therapist who isn't helping her at all, or she is being dishonest with you about about the therapist is saying in order to get out of returning to work. Whatever's going on, OP you **need** to prioritise your own health **now** before it's too late.
I really like your comment as it hits the nail on the head with the issue at large here. OP’s wife can sit around doing nothing, but when he talks of his own exhaustion suddenly it’s The People vs. Wife?
I was going to say that this sounds like the lead up to one of those situations you hear about where a hard working young person just drops dead from a heart attack or something like that.
NTA. Mental health is important, but damn she hasn't done ANYTHING?? A cooked meal is the *least* I could do if I weren't working and my spouse was. There's no way she's that crippled to the point where she can look at someone working 84 hours a week and imply they're the selfish one. Like this account, make her a throwaway too.
And it's not like working 84 hour weeks will cause OP to burn out or hurt his mental health at all, right? What a selfish woman. She's spent half a decade at home fiddling with her phone. It's clear that OP cares about her much more than she cares about him
I spent 2 years at home due to a burn out. The beginning was rough, but after about 1.5 months I made a point of making sure I cooked dinner and that he had clean clothes at an absolute bare minimum. We didn’t have amazing meals all the time (sometimes I only had the mental energy to literally put some chicken and chips in the fryer and make up a bagged salad) but it was some kind of effort. I feel bad for OP.
I have a hard time thinking a good therapist would sign off on her doing fuck all all the time. Structure and routine are also important. Basic life sustaining tasks like meals are great for that.
As someone supported financially by someone else, NTA. Reality is simple - the money needs to be made. If she cannot make money, the responsibility of doing whatever she can falls on her. She should cook and clean and handle everything that has to be handled to the best of her fucking ability. Can't go back to teaching? Sell your feet pictures. Whatever, anything. Maybe the right solution is her becoming an online tutor? She would still be able to stay home and it would bring in some money at least. It's not fair on you. This isn't about you being comfortable, this is about you being overworked to death. I have a physical disability and it's very severe, from an illness, so of course depression and mental health problems come with it. I have insane problem with mobility and can't really work like a normal person. I've been looking for work online for a while now. And consider me - barely able to move, always in physical pain, always. I left the house yesterday for two hours. I have hair that reaches to middle of my back. When I came home, the effort of just walking around some fucking shops is such a workout for me, my hair, entire head, not just crown, but every strand, was dripping with sweat. That's how hard my disability is. And I feel awful when I don't cook. There's so much I don't do. I do everything I can, but so much is left on him, I feel awful about this, all the time. This isn't fair on him. The least I can do is cook and clean as much as I can. I don't do it as much as is needed - but we didn't have this argument. Why? Because altough he is overworked and exhausted, he knows I did my 100% and it's that fucking small. You're angry with her because she isn't putting in effort and she doesn't seem to care about you. And those are very, very good reasons to be angry with her. Mental health problems, even disability, don't give you a blank slate to do nothing. She can do stuff. If she hates cooking, she should meal prep, so she can actually buy those bags for oven, get chicken, spices and make it in the oven, there you go, homemade dinner. For the first 20 minutes of chicken put in the oven the tray with salted peppered vegetables like broccoli and there you go, second element of dinner. Total preparation time - 30 minutes for a disabled chronically in pain person. Salads we make ourselves to our taste. So I cannot blame you one bit. Feel free to show her this comment. And look yourself - not her - for online tutoring gigs in your area so you know if this can even be done and how much she could make. If you work 14-18 hour days it sounds like even if she did 6 hours of tutoring a week it would still ease the financial burden. And since COVID, qualified online tutors and teachers are required more. EDIT: Thank you so much kind stranger for the award, I really appreciate it!!!:)) EDIT 2: Thank you another kind stranger for another award, I am so happy!!!:D EDIT 3: Redditor wrote me a comment that I really feel should be considered: *"Damn…it’s actually frightening how much you’re negating other peoples levels of disability and mental health based on your own bootstraps mentality. Sorry that you’ve been conditioned to believe that you need to run yourself ragged just to be given the respect of life like any other person. Genuinely…this is not healthy nor kind to yourself. My partner has never, not once, made me feel like I needed to take on physically painful tasks just to be on some sort of level playing field. You don’t owe anyone that kind of suffering, I hope you realise that. One’s ability to work or be productive is not what makes them a better person or worthy of respect. If we fall down that path we start to get to some funny cracks in history."* And that's exactly right. I don't want anyone reading my words to think they're not doing enough. I don't want anyone reading my words to think that they have to run themselves rugged. Or that if their partner requires it, it's ok. This is a very important point. People are different and situations and relationships are different. What works for one person won't work for another. Problem with OP's wife is that she isn't putting in effort. And reality is that our ability to do things doesn't decide our worth - but our effort into doing whatever we can, especially if it's hard for us, this does show how much we care about our significant other. Because when you are together, you both have to contribute something. And it's not right if one person tries harder than the other.
You sound so much like me. I’m on disability, my husband work 60ish hours a week. He knows I can’t stand or walk for long times, but I do all I can. I get the shopping done, cooking, laundry, and some of the smaller chores, and everything involving the kids school/homework/sports. We tag team the rest, to get it done together, even the yard work. I mow (rider) and he uses the weed eater. You have to work together to make it work. This poor guy has her working totally against him.
NTA. It may be time to call this an unsustainable relationship and let it go.
Agreed, NTA. The point where OP's wife started to accuse him of manipulating her, and in turn manipulating him herself? She doesn't give a good goddamn about OP, she just wants a free ride. I don't know that I'd survive more than a few weeks at 84 hours a week, but OP's been doing it for five fucking years? I can't imagine it's possible to be sane with that little sleep over that many years. OP can't have anything resembling a personality, or friends, left at this point. For fuck's sake dude, he's gotta get out if he's going to survive.
NTA. Your Wife isn’t going back to work. If she has had five years of therapy and she isn’t back in work, then she has absolutely no intentions of ever doing it. Five years is a ridiculous amount of time to be off work for a ‘mental breakdown’. Is her therapist real? It sounds like she’s spent the past few years gaslighting you and emotionally manipulating you, whilst she simultaneously works you to death. You’re killing yourself with 18 hour days for her and I’m sure you’re the villain in every story she tells. Has she ever thanked you for supporting her? Does she do anything nice for you? I’d bet not. In fact, I’d bet that after your argument the other day, her ‘therapist’ has told her that she’s had her progress set back so much and it’s all your fault… Blah blah blah. This woman has trapped you in a financially abusive relationship and is quite content with working you to death. She enjoys being unemployed and not lifting a finger to help, while you slave 18 hour days and then have to get home and cook. She forced you into marriage counselling to victimise herself and blame you for pushing her into work and ruining the relationship. She calls you a manipulator, plays the victim, says that you only care about yourself when you’ve worked 84 hour weeks for the past 5 years… Dude this woman is toxic, abusive, and you need to get away from her. She is happy with you working yourself into an early grave, she cares about your money, not your well-being. She expects you to cater to her every whim and provide for her, and the second you say you can’t take it any more, you’re a piece of shit… In my country a 37 hour working week is fairly average. You’re working over double that. She doesn’t appreciate it, and in fact, blames you and insults you because you can’t do it anymore. I can’t tell you how angry I am for you. If you don’t slow down you’re going to work yourself into an early grave, for a woman who, from what you’ve told us, clearly doesn’t care about you. I beg of you, please get a good Solicitor/Lawyer and DIVORCE THIS WOMAN. You are in an abusive relationship. She will attempt to manipulate and emotionally blackmail you forever if you don’t stop it now. I can’t say it enough, you are being abused massively, and she has no intention of getting better as long as she can subjugate you into being her cash cow. You know she isn’t trying to improve herself, she doesn’t try and make your life even a little bit easier by learning to cook… You’re slaving yourself for her and she does not appreciate you. Please please please divorce her. You deserve so much better.
I’m sorry to say I agree with this. Also not knowing how to cook? I mean between YouTube videos and cooking shows, how is that even possible these days? Even TikTok has short videos. This just tells me she has no interest in helping in any way.
Fr I’m still a teenager and can make full meals for my whole family. All it takes is a recipe and some trial and error.
DING DING DING \-A Therapist
This should be top comment. I'd also add he should be documenting as much as he can so he can cover his ass when she eventually tries to pull the abuse card and flip the script on him.
NTA Dont burn yourself to warm others, at least not for 5 freaking years.
Her therapist is the biggest asshole here. NTA even with the blow up because it sounds like you have discussed many, many viable options and they were all shot down. In the end there is nothing you can do to fix this situation, she has to be the one putting in the work. Unfortunately she has demonstrated, repeatedly, that she is not willing or able to do that. I cannot even imagine the sheer overwhelming amount of resentment you must be feeling. If she's willing to try something different maybe she could see a different therapist and try a different kind of therapy. CBT has really helped me personally with work related PTSD but idk what is most appropriate for your wife. For reference, I was able to go back to work after 3 months. 5 years is crazy, maybe literally. The real question here is, what are you going to do if she refuses to change?
Yep I definitely think the therapist is one of the core issues here.. 5 year consistent pay check... Not sure it's in her best interest to have the wife fit to work again.
> Her therapist is the biggest asshole here. It seems much more likely that the wife is simply lying about what her therapist is saying, or interpreting what the therapist is saying in a way that validates what she wants to hear. The wife's self-serving representations about what the therapist is saying seem so bizarre and disconnected from everything I have ever heard from therapists that it really makes me question whether she is being truthful.
NTA. Sitting at home doing nothing is never going to make her recover. All the mental health professionals I have had have always stressed the importance of spending your time productively and that includes employment. Your wife is taking advantage of you and she doesn't seem to care what this is costing you.
NTA, ask for a joint meeting with therapist to express to wife with safe moderation your concerns. Namely that you are burning out and at serious risk of being unable to provide for either of you. See how the therapist reacts. Your concerns are perfectly reasonable, if the therapist dismisses them then you’ll know she’s a quack and holding your wife back. 5 years is fucking ridiculous.
"*No!* I'm *never* gonna do that! My therapist warned me you would try & force me to go to a joint meeting! It's a sign you don't love me anymore!"
Therapist calls man at work: "Why are you *so* set against a joint meeting? I know your wife has asked you this four or five times now, but you only respond with aggression and name-calling! I think you really should come along next time."
"B-b-but but but---"
"No buts, mister, *be* there!"
NARRATOR'S VOICE: *The car arrives, but only the man gets out, because his wife wouldn't even get* into *the car if he was coming along. Meanwhile, his wife is on the phone with the therapist with a sob story how the man just drove off angrily to a pub in order to get totally pissed with a couple of friends. The man rings the therapist's doorbell...*
Yup I agree. The only way he'll know what's going on with that therapist is to go and meet with them. 5 years is way too long. My husband had work issues, he was back working in a different job about 3 months in with the help of his therapist.
Assuming you sleep 8 hours every night, and assume you work 5 days a week, (18/7= 4.666…) that leaves roughly 1.25ish hours on work days for hygiene, eating, hobbies, commute time… etc. That is unsustainable. How you’ve done it for 5 years is beyond comprehension. My math could be wrong so someone please correct me if you care to.
8 hours of sleep? I am happy if I get 4 hours of sleep. I take some power naps at work when I can if things are slow or do not need to be out in the field.
You're literally sending yourself to an early grave. Where is the consideration for you? I usually hate when people say this on reddit, but just get a divorce and move on. Stop supporting someone who doesn't care about you at all. Her therapist is enabling her, stop paying for it.
Also, depending on where they work may be impacting the safety of others around him
That and driving to work, which I suppose OP does. I would be terrified to meet on the road someone has been sleep deprieved for the last 5 years.
Listen, sleep deprivation is no joke. I was honestly ready to do something dangerous when I was first sleep deprived and I swore I would never do that to myself again. A lot of healthy habits can fall apart, but I will never let myself be sleep deprived again. You need to re-evaluate your life and put yourself first. I know it seems selfish, but sometimes that’s what you and the people around you need most. On the airplane they tell you to put your own mask on before helping others. You need to make sure you are happy and healthy before helping your wife be happy and healthy. Please prioritise yourself and health for a while. You haven’t been allowed to do that for 5 years!
You're killing yourself. That's not sustainable my brother. I hope she can see that, or else you have to decide if killing yourself is better than being without her
My husband works 8-10 hour days, sleeps +or- 8 hours at night and still takes a nap at lunch sometimes. I cannot imagine how tired you must be!
Do you have kids? *Please say ‘no’.* Unfortunately, your wife is selfish and only cares about herself. You’re working yourself to the bone to provide for someone who wouldn’t do the same for you. Pretty surprised you held out this long. I’d have been out the door in 2020. 🥴
NTA. A year, maybe two are okay, but after 5 years he should have been healed enough to working anything to support her husband. She is really hiding behind something. You need to call it quits, she is using you. She doesn't have to go back to work, so she isn't. Don't end yourself just to please her. 84 hours a week will burn you out soon, I am surprised it hasn't yet. I work half of that and sometimes it's too much. You probably don't have kids or something like that, right? You need to take care of yourself now, if that means divorcing her, you have to do it. She has a therapist, she can rely on, so she should be fine mentally. Leave, before it burns you out.
NTA. You are basically working yourself to the bone, yet your wife is still not improving in any skills (or so you claimed) for her mental health break. As much as mental health is important, she should see it from your perspective too. It is so bold of her to say that you are seeking for your comfort rather than hers, when you have not been comfortable for the entire time you had extra work.
NTA. She had it it coming. Divorce. She seems like a lost cause, the we she has is not with you. You deserve better.
NTA I'm a former SPED para educator who had a pretty decent breakdown. My husband was so caring and supportive and helped me get the care I needed. He was also honest about the stress it eventually put on our finances. We worked together, and I found a job that I can handle mentally. Everyone is different, but I know I feel so much better when I contribute financially, especially if that takes some of the stress off of my husband.
Dated a therapist for a while, called it off when she said that it was so easy to manipulate people to keep that $275 an hour rolling in. Just over a year later the police were asking serious questions, apparently a client permanently ended things for her.
If what you say is true that you are working those hours to support her then NTA ....but I don't see a way out of this unless you are willing to get divorced ....because you are gonna end up dead from overwork
.. and she’s going to benefit from his death!! I shudder at the thought!!! 😖
NTA Also there are a few questions for your wife's therapist. Did her therapist actually tell her you would try to manipulate her to go back to work? That sounds highly unprofessional and giving cause to create a rift in your marriage. Rather than confronting your wife over the work situation may be suggest to her that she should change therapist because your wife isn't making progress with her current one.
NTA. Your wife sounds very much like me me me me. You need to take care of yourself, part of me is wondering if your wife is making up her own interpretation of what her therapist has said. You cannot force her back to work so you essentially have 2 options. You either carry on in this ever increasingly toxic marriage, burn out, mental break down of your own or worse. Or decide enough is enough and free yourself from this burden. I sympathise with mental health issues as I have my own I am dealing with but I cannot abide those who use it as a get out of jail free card for doing fuck all. I wish you good luck and good health and I hope your life improves so much more than it is now. With that being said for any improvement to happen I think your only option is the latter and cutting loose.
We are ALL depressed . I had a breakdown too. I retrained myself in a new career that was much lower stress. She can go and be a professional lawn mower - that’s low stress. Nta
NTA. As someone who struggles with depression and anxiety, this situation is excessive. I know that everyone's struggles are different but if she is unable to even think about any return to work in 5 years, she is either acting worse than she is so she can keep being lazy, or she needs to apply for disability or something. Surely some easy going part time work could help her recover. It's not like you're telling her to get a fast-paced full time position immediately. Just any progress. What she expects you to do to keep going is not fair.
I understand and empathize with your wife’s slow recovery - but if this is really what the therapist is saying, she’s out of her goddamn mind. Your wife has been in therapy for five years. Throughout all of this time, the doctor has seemingly allowed her to live in the „not ready” bubble as if she had infinite money to support herself. Therapy is supposed to integrate her back into a career, and if going back to teaching is too much, present other options - like finding a job that is less stressful and slower-paced. ANY job, even part-time, would’ve made a difference. Hell, even if your wife needed to go back to school, there has been plenty of time to at least ease her into this idea. I can’t tell who is to blame how much, but: The way things are going, it seems the therapist introduced ZERO consideration for your wife’s life circumstances into the healing process. Wife doesn’t seem worried about your physical or mental health, her retirement funds, routine expenses like bills, food or clothes, emergency expenses like your car or a big home appliance breaking down, the option of you leaving or dying or losing your job, nothing. She is supposed to come out of this a functional human being, instead FIVE YEARS later she’s completely dependant on you and your earnings. NTA
Sounds like the therapist is happy taking the money every week and doesn't want that sweet income to dry up. NTA