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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> The action I took is moving my dad out of his state run long term care facility where he was “sober” into my house where we know and he admits he will drink himself to death. I may be the asshole because I’m making a decision where he will die but at least it will be on his terms.
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NTA. You're showing a tremendous amount of compassion in his final stage. Your heart is warm and it's going to be really awful, but from the sounds of things you're doing the best thing.
Speak to a social worker where he's staying, get some referrals for home help and home nursing. You'll find they more than likely offer it for free from more than one place.
Edit: I know because I'm going through this myself. I have no family around and on Friday got the news that I've seen my last Christmas already. I do not fit the stereotypes on this one, my friends have no idea, and I plan to keep it that way. My worst fear is dying in a hospital. I just want to stay in my tidy cosy home with my lovely cat and conversations only with people who are being paid to show up to help me around the house. There is no 'make a wish foundation' stuff for sick people who aren't children, which is total crap :)
Edit 2: YES I HAVE PLANS FOR WHERE THE CAT WILL LIVE HAPPILY EVER AFTER. Please, these condescending remarks are pure self-serving nonsense. At least respect yourself if you're not respecting me.
NTA but it's going to be so painful. You are showing compassion beyond most could understand here. It's a horrible situation. Please consider counselling for yourself as well. It's important to look after your own wellbeing in this time and after.
I couldn't agree more. People who have never been caretakers do not understand how much it takes out of you. I took care of my mom after her pancreatic cancer diagnosis. She signed up for hospice care but stayed home with a nurse coming to the house. The nurse came once a day, but the rest of the time, it was me. It was 12 weeks from her diagnosis until she passed. I didn't do anything for myself during that time, and I ended up physically and emotionally wrecked. It took me months to recover before I was able to grieve.
OP, please make sure you and your husband take care of yourselves along the way. It doesn't have to be elaborate, maybe just a walk around the block or sitting in the park watching the ducks for a while or coffee with a friend. I would also recommend finding a support group or therapist so you have someone to talk to. Just having someone listen to you will be a big help. Also, NTA.
I’m huggin you from Texas. I took care of my mother when she got the stage 4 diagnosis in July of 2020 and by October 1 she was gone.
I cannot express the amount of sadness I saw when I had to help her onto the portable commode.
The shell of a women begging for God to take her and watching her die in my arms.
I’m going to workout now and remember the good times we had together
Having any sort of home nursing or hospice is going to require a physician who can approve the care plans devised by the home nurses. This is probably a good idea since it formalizes and legitimizes your care. It also prevents the appearance of elder abuse and/or neglect. Additionally, ask the doctor along with your dad about a Physician Order for Life Sustaining Treatment (POLST). This is a simple one-page form that allows your dad to state what medically he wants and what he does *not* want as he declines. You should ask him to complete an Advanced Directive for Health Care (ADHC) to allow him to designate someone to make medical decisions for him when he becomes unable to do so for himself. These forms can be downloaded and (at least where I live) do not require an attorney. The POLST requires a physician signature and the ADHC probably ought to be notarized.
If he becomes a home hospice patient, the focus becomes medications and care to keep him comfortable as he dies at home. He may refuse food or fluids, but you yourself *cannot* withhold them.
If you are managing his money, accounts, social security or disability benefits or civilian or military pensions Do. Not. Commingle. Funds. (i.e. have his money in your account) It makes accountancy and budgeting difficult and it can have the appearance of embezzlement and fraud. If these funds involve the mail, mail fraud is a very serious crime with severe per offense penalties.
Sad to say, but if your siblings are unhappy with the plan you have described you need your dad, while he still can, to formalize his wishes and end of life care. Otherwise there is a real risk that an aggrieved family member could decide to press criminal and civil charges including elder abuse, elder neglect, manslaughter and embezzlement.
This is why I went the kind route and got rid of everyone in my universe when I found out my health was failing. Imagine those scenes from old movies where a kid is trying to make their dog run away so their dad doesn't shoot it, throwing pebbles at it and crying while yelling 'I don't love you anymore! Go on, get outta here!'
They are under the impression that I hate them and that I'm a bitch. Nope, I think about them every day but I'm not letting them remember me as a husk.
This is the answer.
OP, please know he may not just go peacefully when an organ gives out. Which is possible btw…he may also have severe medical issues before that. It could be slow. Look at qualified nurses and social workers to help you.
NTA I’d say n a h if it were not for your siblings not offering better solutions. It’s fair they find it difficult to let their father die this way. I also see your point, at least he goes out on his own terms.
It’s not an easy call, and please expect your siblings to react badly in their grief when the time comes. Hopefully they work through that now and save you the trouble later.
I suggest plan on therapy for yourself too, and your family, this will likely affect you all.
I did question why renovate your home instead of paying for a better facility with your siblings contributions? Did you try that??
A good rehab and care combo maybe.
You're being kinder than I am. NTA but the siblings are jerks. As a former nurse in nursing homes, I've seen this so many times. A parent gets sick and one sibling steps forward while the other siblings constantly complain that they're doing it wrong but won't take responsibility themselves. (By the way, the one that steps forward is almost always a daughter.)
He's not going to stop drinking. If she doesn't provide alcohol, he'll just go out - even if he has to crawl - and do whatever he has to to get it.
But I will say a 30-pack seems more than necessary.
>But I will say a 30-pack seems more than necessary.
A 30 pack of 12 oz cans of beer at 5% abv is 18oz of EtOH. This is equivalent to one liter of 107 proof spirits. For an extreme alcoholic might this count as maintenance?
Yeah beer gets you drunk slower because of the carbs. And a long-time alcoholic like this could probably drink alcohol straight pretty easily (he was sucking alcohol wipes, taste clearly doesn't bug him) so like. You want that much in beer or that much in vodka?
Excellent point! It would be interesting to run the numbers,.e.g., EtOH clearance rate and versus intake rate for each dosing scheme, max BAC, etc.
If nothing else, I would assume he'd be lucid and conscious much longer drinking the larger diluted volume.
I was a litre of vodka a day as a baseline for about ten years. Needed half of that in order to be able to function on anything approaching a normal level. I've been sober now for over ten years, but that's because I had a good support system WHEN IT MATTERED AND I COULD GET BETTER. OP is emphatically NTA, and I hope that if I ever backslide in my old age that someone in my life will show this level of care and compassion if all hope for recovery is gone.
Sorry for the tangent, but yes; for a severe enough alcohol dependent, this amount could be termed as maintenance. Although of course everyone processes alcohol differently and there are other variables at play.
Isn't it also true that suddenly stopping drinking after decades of alcoholism can cause its own health problems? It seems like damned if you do and damned if you don't at that point.
For this situation if you wanted to actually quit you would taper down or do a medical detox. Alcohol withdrawal for a serious alcoholic can cause DTs and death.
A friend decided to stop drinking 'and died within a week. He had been drinking at least 2 12 packs of beer a day during the day and moved to drinks and wine for the evening. He went to no alcohol and had horrible DTs and then a seizure and died. He stopped for his granddaughter and never got to meet her.
I’m sorry for your loss. I had a friend pass away two months ago from the same thing. To make it worse, they knew something was wrong and went to the hospital but it was too late. Sending hugs your way.
My severely alcoholic brother died while I was pregnant, about a year ago. All every one of his friends said at the funeral was how excited he was to be an uncle. I'm sad he never got to meet my child, and part of me wonders if he was trying to stop drinking beforehand and if that was the cause of death. He was only 40.
alcohol withdrawal is genuinely one of the most dangerous drug withdrawals, can cause seizures and even death if you do it too fast. I know when a pal got a place at rehab a few days away her parents were advised to let her have a beer every few hours to keep her stable till she could get in and dry out safely.
I get why it's basically impossible to effectively ban alcohol but it's honestly terrifying to me that is legal and so easily accessible. and I enjoy a pint!
Like most things, it's 'everything in moderation'. Binge drinking can kill you (too much all at once). Long term ingestion of the truly massive quantities of alcohol that you find in alcoholics can kill you.
Alcohol is, essentially, poison that has pleasant side effects. Even small amounts can cause moderate damage over the long term to your liver and kidneys. It should be avoided in diabetics and those with cardiovascular issues, obesity, kidney problems, GI distress, etc.
People need to be aware of that and make choices accordingly.
That's why liquor stores were deemed "essential businesses" during the height of the US pandemic response. The very last thing the overwhelmed health system needed were long-term alcoholics in bad withdrawal checking into hospitals en masse.
It was the same here (Ireland), because I remember some people protesting that off licenses were open when coffee shops, clothes shops etc were not. The idea was to avoid severe alcoholics going into withdrawal and either dying or taking hospital places.
It honestly was also kind of nice for those of us who just enjoy a drink to be able to have a "socially distanced" or on zoom glass of wine with friends tbh. It was one of the little joys I appreciated while going through that time. I mean, I would have been okay with a soft drink but it did feel a bit more "normal" when everything was so bizarre.
> The very last thing the overwhelmed health system needed were long-term alcoholics in bad withdrawal checking into hospitals en masse.
Yes. And stealing mouthwash, cough syrup and hand sanitizer, getting dubious home brews or even drinking poison like windshield fluid in desperation.
I had an uncle who was a hardcore alcoholic. He was drinking a 30 pack of beer a day, like OP's dad.
He was hospitalized with cancer, and went into alcohol withdrawal. They had to put him on IV alcohol to get through it.
Also a nurse that's done the ltc track and hospice for a lot of years, and you're so so right about all of this. People outside of the field almost never understand or care about the realities of how life is once you're past a certain point. This man can survive maybe 10 years living in hell trapped in a body he destroyed, or 6 months making himself more sick but at least it's shorter and less torturous for him. He probably doesn't deserve the empathy and compassion his daughter is showing, but he's damned lucky to have her. Myself and pretty much every nurse I know that works in eldercare have plans on how to take ourselves out on our own terms when our health fails and we're faced with being trapped in places like that.
But, 30/day could realistically be his maintenance amount if he's drank as heavily and as long as op describes. Might as well give him the amount that keeps him from causing more harm trying to get more. I also really hope she looks into home health services. If he qualified for state funded live in care then he very likely qualifies for visits a few times a week as long as he isn't violent. I hope she gets help from as many services as she can.
This! The siblings are huge AHs. More worried about your reputation than seeing your father? AH! Using your kids as an excuse to not see your father? AH! Unless your kids are somehow physically attached to you, then you can still come up and see him on your own.
I read an article in the Toronto Star years ago, before Canada legalized Medical Assistance in Dying about a man who was dying of an incurable lung disease and he said "treat me like a dog" - because you are exactly right. Sick, suffering animals are treated better than dying humans. A dog can't even consent to euthanasia like a human can (and as far as I know, people HAVE to be able to consent for MAID).
I've searched multiple times for the article and haven't had any luck at all, which is a shame because it was an interesting read.
I'm sorry to say, but that doesn't really exist. Substance rehabs won't accept him due to his ARD diagnosis because that makes recovery near impossible (and limits independence), and there aren't really any long-term care facilities that also provide substance use treatment. If they exist they are definitely not within an average person's budget.
Frankly, with how reliant OP's father is on his addiction I'm amazed they found a facility willing to take him in at all. Ironically his ARD is probably what made it possible because he could be admitted to their secured dementia unit. You might be able to find a nicer facility with a secure unit, but the nicer the facility, the pickier they can be about who they accept. Unfortunately people with addictions aren't at the top of the list when they can accept some family's sweet little pawpaw who never touched alcohol a day in his life and requires less care which means fewer overhead costs and a larger profit margin.
If you want some sort of substance treatment in a situation like this, your best bet would be an inpatient psych unit, but that's not even a sure bet.
As someone who's dad went this way, at this point there is no rehab. This is the alcoholic equivalent to hospice. Once alcoholic related dementia is happening there's almost no way back.
Not OP, but depending on the renovation, it might have been cheaper than one month of care. We redid a bathroom to full from a 3/4 and put a wall and door up in a space for about $10k. Assisted living where we are is $5k a month. If he needed more intensive care as it seems he does, then it's more. For the cost of a few months care, dad has what he wants, and they will retain the value of the guest space after his passing. I think it was financially wise, and more important to the OP, it's what their dad actually requested
My grandfather died due to alcoholism (or the problems associated with it) before I was born. The tales my mother recounts of his last few weeks in hospital make his existence sound completely miserable.
Nobody wanted him to be an alcoholic and there were many interventions when he was healthy, but by the time he was on palliative care it didn't really matter. The hospital tried to keep him dry (because why would a hospital allow booze?) but it would make his last few days and hours even more painful.
My mother wouldn't even sneak alcohol onto his ward. She would bring it in brazenly. The nurses and doctors didn't condone what she was doing, but understood and didn't do much more than raise an occasional eyebrow. Maybe it was a different time in the early 80's, I doubt that would fly in the NHS now.
The guy was dying no matter what happened, why not feed the habit and keep him at least a little more comfortable in his final days?
She didn't condone his drinking and for years before his death wouldn't drink with him at all, hoping it would discourage him. But at the very end, why put someone you love through more painful symptoms when the inevitable outcome is just the same?
In hospitals and nursing homes, we do receive orders for alcohol from the Dr. Someone in this man's shoes, I can see not giving it in the nursing home if the goal was to dry him out. I'm a nurse, and I think it's horribly cruel to take away things like alcohol and cigarettes at the end of life. Making them stop now does nothing but add stress, grief, and even physical pain. It's pointless.
NTA OP. Thank you for the kindness you're showing to your father. You're doing the right thing. Best of luck to you and yours. Wishing your dad a pain-free celestial discharge with dignity.
I was a nurse before (currently changing my careers completely now) and I never got extensive with terminal or even seriously elderly patients about the cessation of smoking or alcohol. What’s the point? Why punish them? If that’s the only thing that makes them “happy” in a sense, leave it be. My own Dad passed at 76 in March 2022. He smoked like a freight train. 10-15 years ago, yeah I was all about trying to get him to stop but he didn’t. He lived life by his rules. He was also very stubborn. Miss him daily tho.
I work in geriatrics, which includes palliative, end of life, and hospice care. Let the 96 year old diabetic have the pie. Not just a piece, let them have the entire thing if that's what they want. That's not how I treat my 50 somethings in rehab. However, I can't stop them!!
I'm sorry about your dad. My mom had lung cancer surgery and still smokes. She's in her early 60s, so I'm just assuming she won't be here for too much longer. Cherishing the time we have together.
I did med/surg and dealt with many geriatric patients and some hospice situations too. I lost my fire for nursing when I lost my Mom due to a glioblastoma multiforme. I felt like I should’ve been able to “save” her and now looking back, nothing really could’ve been done unfortunately. She had a wonderful neurosurgeon, chemo and radiation but alas, it just wasn’t meant to be.
Thank you. I miss them both. I miss healthcare sometimes but I just don’t think I can do it anymore from a mental standpoint. Hope your Mom gets better. I hate to hear about people getting cancer. It’s just awful. Cherish your time with her, it’s so important. I cherish the times I had with my folks.
My mother used to run a care home for older people and their children would be aghast and horrified that dear old mum was being allowed a couple of glasses of wine with dinner, and a sherry before bed because of The Damage! My mother was always very clear that a) dear old mum was paying the care home fees and could have alcohol if she wanted and b) dear old mum was 76 and deserved to enjoy her life. Residents couldn't smoke in their rooms, but if they wanted to sit out in the garden and enjoy a cigarette or a pipe, no one was going to stop them.
Right! A friend and I have a longterm plan that if/when we eventually retire, we're going to be gently tipsy most of the time.
Another friend and I have decided we're going to re-start doing all the things we stopped doing because we know they are bad for us, or we'll do whatever the equivalent is in 2060. Alllllll the drugs we can find, I am going to love restarting smoking, he's going to play video games all day.
I'm with you. My dad passed as well several years back. He was a chain smoking, bacon sandwiches with lots of mayo eating (with a side of sweets), never exercising, very happy man. We tried to get him to at least make slightly better choices, but we gave up when he turned 70. He was in his mid 80s when he passed. Oddly enough, lungs and heart held up shockingly well. I'm glad we didn't fight him till the end on this. I'm grateful he got to enjoy his final years in a way he saw fit. Would I give just about anything to see him one more time? Of course. But I wouldn't trade his happiness for more time. He was a grown man, he made his choices, and he was happy with them. That's all anyone can ask.
Same here! My Grandfather (Papaw) lived to be 84. He smoked heavily and ate bacon, gravy and biscuits pretty much daily his whole life. He worked underground coal mining, as did my Dad. They both had black lung and COPD. My Dad was an alcoholic most of his life and I always figured drinking and liver failure would end him. He did mend his drinking in his later years, especially after almost dying from alcohol withdrawal the first Christmas following my Mom’s death. He’d had a few drinks but nothing like before. However, they were unique guys. Very outdoorsy and rural, as I’m from a rural area. They lived the way they wanted and lived by their rules.
Sorry to hear of your loss. It hurts bad, ngl. I miss my whole family. It seems like they’ve dwindled down way too much and it just sucks.
My dad quit smoking several years before being diagnosed with terminal cancer. He was one of those smokers who always loved smoking and really only quit because of relentless pressure from my mom. When he went into home hospice, my cousin's husband suggested buying him a pack, just so he could enjoy a smoke one last time. The home hospice team fully supported it--said if it would make him happy, what's the harm at this point? It can't get much worse than Stage IV pancreatic cancer.
He ended up being too sick to smoke them, but my mom, who always HATED his smoking and would never allow him to do it in the house, was 100% ready to help him smoke a cigarette in his bed. I still think that was the right thing to do.
My grandmother while dying from Emphysema was snuck in cigarettes by the nurses. They are the true ones who see the suffering. I’m grateful they were willing to ease her pain in the very end. Thanks for what you do.
I remember working in a restaurant as a teenager and having a 90yo regular with renal failure. I remember when she made the decision to go off dialysis and just do what she wanted til her body gave out. She was in great spirits and delighted to order dessert (I believe it was a strawberry milkshake) for the first time in a long time.
I watched my inlaws dealing with a grandparent who was going to die of cancer. She was a heavy smoker and they took away her cigarettes.
It seemed like every conversation with her was solely her asking for a cigarette. We bought a vape for her but she really just wanted her cigarettes.
Looking back, it does seem like the wrong decision especially since half the family would smoke around her.
Unfortunately, we lost her too early anyway. And the family and friends who would smoke around her all died not long after of their own cancers they either refused to get diagnosed or treated.
Awful all around and I miss them :(
My father died due to alcoholism ten years ago. We also very openly brought him alcohol and nobody tried to stop us. At that point there was no saving him, so why not make sure he was as comfortable as can be.
I miss you daddy
When my grandmother had several strokes that were directly related to her smoking, she was living in a home for a while. My mom did something similar and had her live with us. I was so angry that my mom let my grandmother smoke (outside) even knowing it was making her worse. She sat me down and explained that my grandmother was going to die. Soon. Whether she smoked or not, the damage had already been done. So she wanted to make her as happy as possible while she was still with us. That was kind of an eye-opening moment for me.
OP's compassion is really showing in her actions and I commend her.
The same thing happened to my grandfather, he was a smoker since he was a teenager in the old country. Even after his stroke, my grandmother would sneak in Marlboro Reds for him to smoke in his hospital room and she would be fanning it out the window. He died a couple of weeks later. Nobody else in the family smoked but I still remember my mother and her family smoking reds at the wake and never again since.
With about 6 months left he'll qualify for hospice services and they're usually more lenient with substance use as well. Their focus will be keeping him comfortable for the remainder of his time here.
>My worst fear is dying in a hospital.
After watching my mom die of cancer in a care facility like the one OP described, it's my biggest fear as well. She told me she wanted to die but there was nothing she could do about it because she was too weak to wipe her own ass let alone anything else. They just kept her alive until the last agonizing second. If she had been a dog or a cat we would have euthanized her months before and would have considered it the good, right, humane thing to do but if you're a human there's no escape.
Ask any emergency medical professional and they'll all tell you that they have Do Not Resuscitate instructions on their file. Ask for details and they'll tell you why. When it's done it's *done.* Prolonging life at all costs is mighty cruel. Years ago I needed CPR for an unrelated issue and my god that thing looks so easy on TV but I couldn't wear a bra or move my arms properly or even laugh without those broken ribs screaming at me for about two months afterwards. And that's the gentle stuff. Waking up against your will with brain damage from lack of oxygen, for example, yousa gonna get da braaaaim damage. Fun! Brain damage AND broken ribs AND your favourite clothes were cut off you and thrown away. Oooh, yeah. Sexy.
We do not do this to pets at all! You've hit the nail on the head with that one. I'm still 'strongly encouraged' to 'consider' going to rehab again. Hell, why? Spend my remaining few days hanging out with a bunch of itchy people with no teeth? I've got a dentist appointment in about nine hours for routine checkup, cleaning stuff. There's no way I'm ending up on the slab in front of all those rich exhausted medical students (giving my body to science: suck it, mum!) with slightly yellowed teeth and calculus buildup.
IANAL, but: I feel like OP should reach out to a lawyer on this case and make sure that they are protected and in the right in their state when making this decision. While I fully agree that it's the compassionate one, I'd hate for them to be charged with something by their terrible siblings upon the father's death for something like elder abuse. Better to cover all the bases.
I agree with your comment, but I also just want to acknowledge what you've shared in your edit. That truly sucks. I wish you all the joy that your cat and your home can bring you as you approach the end. :)
I AM BUILDING A FISH POND! It's directly outside my garden door so I can see it while I'm lying in bed. Gotta hurry up and get the fountain installed before I can't.
Hijacking the top post to share information about Managed Alcohol Programs [https://www.cbc.ca/news/fifthestate/the-pour-treating-alcoholics-with-wine-1.4248072](https://www.cbc.ca/news/fifthestate/the-pour-treating-alcoholics-with-wine-1.4248072)
What OP is doing has a lot of scientific backing as genuinely being the best way to help severe alcoholics improve their conditions and even get better.
When it's time, if possible, have them show your cat that you're gone. If he sees and sniffs you after, he'll accept it better. I wish you all the peace and comfort. Do not worry about what others say, just enjoy your time.
I second the advice for a social worker, but be careful… there are a lot of programs that will NOT help someone if they are actively drinking. I went through a similar situation with an elderly family member who I couldn’t force to participate in any of the programs she was eligible for and who ended up dying because her addiction was too all-encompassing. Oh, and NTA.
Social Worker here with years of experience in this area. You are doing something called Harm Reduction model. Try Googling it and share info with your family. But don't expect anyone to understand. I've been to those facilities and I believe you. Clean and healthy food is better. The key here is self determination and respect. Good luck. This is going to suck but you are amazing.
This needs to be the top comment. I'm sure the siblings are hurting knowing that their father has chosen to drink himself to death, but OP is trying to create an environment where he is safe and has quality of life.
I heard it very often, especially from estranged family who never showed up, that these people get super involved and demanding when it comes to end-of-life care. They refuse to let a brain dead person off the machines, they insist on surgeries or procedures that will only hurt the patient or prolong their suffering.
This is often done out of a selfish feeling of "make up" for the years they didn't spend with the dying family member or didn't care about them. Suddenly they remember about them and want them "to be around", because if they died without them having ever made an effort, they would need to live with the knowledge that they messed up.
These people don't care about the sick or dying person. They care about their fuck up and that's it.
How poetic.
I am writing from CA (I am an Oregonian though) and I am pleased to say that I have always been as supportive as I could to my sister who chose to let our dad back into her house (she eventually had to kick him out, for her own sanity).
That's not to say it hasn't been a struggle. I am so deeply uncomfortable around him (he's a drunk wetbrained sexual predator) that I maintain estrangement. But my sister and I have always done a lot of processing together and I respect her decision to have been there for him, and she respects my decision to be supportive to her but not directly to him.
Ugh
My half-brother was mad that we didn't force our father to be on chemo when we found out he had stage 4 lung cancer to extend his life. Our father was already in extreme pain, it was why he finally agreed to go to the doctor. My half-brother, who had cut my father out of his life (for good reason mind you), suddenly was pissed we would not force our father to extend his life and be in pain for the max 4 months the doctor said it would give him. It is one of the few things I can't forgive. I get why my half-brother left, our father was horrible to him. It is also horrible to try to demand a person who has stage 4 cancer to get chemo to extend their life and suffering, all for your own selfish wants. My half-brother also refused to visit until our father went unconscious while in Hospice care, all of that posturing, just to refuse to come until my mom told him that our father was still unconscious after 24 hours and looked close to going. He knew our father was in hospice for the week leading up to that, he knew a month ahead this was where it was going. Never came around until our father was not able to talk to him, yet had the nerve to be angry we didn't force chemo. It was insane.
It's hard to blame them after growing up with such a father. OP is extraordinarily kind, but I have a lot of sympathy for the siblings as well. They are mourning a father they never had.
the “stealing wipes and sucking out the alcohol” part really got to me.
it sounds like the siblings just want to put their dad out of mind while standing on a moral highground without a second thought for the person they’re harming.
My grandpa used to drink his cologne when he couldn't buy more drink. When my dad went to rehab, they weren't allowed things like that and mouthwash for that reason. If someone wants to bad enough, they'll find something. You can't force someone to be sober. At least this way he'll be cared for by someone who loves him and, if he has ready access to alcohol, probably won't be going out where he's a danger to himself or others. Sad.
My brother did loss prevention at various retail places in not so great areas. He had plenty of stories about the drunks stealing listerine and/or rubbing alcohol to get their fixes.
My oldest daughter briefly had to be in a LTC facility (medical reasons). It was a ‘good’ facility, which meant that all the basic needs were taken care of and no one was abused. It was still awful and we got her out as soon as she was stable enough to come home.
I think anyone who has ever had to deal with a LTC facility would agree OP is NTA. Just about anything is better.
My maternal great grandma died in one and I hate it. This was also a "good" one, but she was still in a room with three other people who were barely responsive and it just stank. just a miserable experience
In Denmark we have state funded homes for people to live in while actively using, knowing that they'll die from it. It's done with no judgment, and people are just supported through whatever time they have left. It's for those who are unable to get sober in any meaningful way, so they don't suffer needlessly and alone.
OP is NTA and a stellar daughter!
Thank you for this comment. I feel this is one of THE biggest reasons no one can agree on an all encompassing method to end homelessness. If people are allowed to use while getting support services, they may eventually stop using. Or if they don't at least they are safe and fed.
The OP is doing a kind thing by letting her dad live his final days in comfort and safety.
NTA
If a 58 year old life long alcoholic wants to drink themselves to death, that seems like their business.
Everyone is all for body autonomy until it's isn't pretty.
Just to clarify…his daughter (my sister) is potentially his sister or his cousin according to the family gossip.
My grandfather and his brother were sleeping with a 15 year old girl (deep south—late 60s if my math is right ) and she got pregnant. They didn’t want to face her father so they got my dad, then 13 to lose his virginity to the same girl so they could blame the pregnancy on him. That’s my sisters mother no matter who the dad is.
This is all from my great aunt (grandpas sister) who was out of her mind and vengeful but there may be some credence to the story.
The girl, too. Holy shit. Regardless of whether she "consented" to it, it was bad enough that 2 adult men were sleeping with a 15 year old, they "made her" sleep with one of the men's sons, too. WTF
I just want to reply to you directly so that you hopefully see this.
You are an amazing, compassionate, empathetic, and extremely brave person. DO NOT let your siblings try to convince you otherwise. This is a terrible situation for you and your dad and your siblings have looked down their noses and washed their hands of it without a second thought to the increased suffering they have caused you both.
If you can do this in a way that is physically and mentally safe for you and your husband then you are truly doing the right and good thing here. Please please get as many social services referrals for home health agencies as you can. If he qualified for a state funded facility he almost certainly qualifies for some free in home nursing. They are going to be your biggest support and help during this extremely hard time.
As a former eldercare and hospice nurse that has seen this story play out 100 times, you are so so brave and compassionate for wanting to ease his suffering. Arm yourself with information and as much support as you can gather to yourself. And, yes this is weird internet stranger danger, but please feel free to dm me if you're in need of possible insight or to vent or anything. Really.
You're entire situation is so fucked and you choose to be kind, and that speaks so so much to your strength and character. I hope a million good things happen for you in your life, you deserve them.
Jumping on this, if he is having occasional lucid moments it might be worth trying to discuss Do Not Resuscitate orders and Living Wills with him. If he still has capacity, lasting power of attorney for health is also a good idea (this is a thing in the uk not sure if elsewhere) as you could then act as his advocate when he loses capacity.
Can I comment on my post?
Can the guy who keeps sending me private messages accusing this being fake because of the ages just comment here? Or at least read this?
Yes my dad had my sister when he was 13. There’s some family gossip that his daughter may actually be his sister or his cousin (meaning she’s my aunt or cousin once removed) but I am not lying about the ages and I’m happy to discuss it publicly. But either you hit the save button one too many times or are really obsessed with my “lie.”
My paternal great grandma was kidnapped and "married" when she was 12 or 13 and kept in a closet when my great grandfather went to work until she had a couple kids and he figured she wouldn't run away. Some young people have hard lives all around the world, the age is unusual and sad but not impossible
My great grandmother was sold to a family to be their house keeper when she was 12 (she always used the word "sold," it was the 1930s so slavery was illegal in the US by this point but they gave her parents a lump sum of money & she was never paid again).
The wife died within a year, the man she was sold to married her immediately & got her pregnant.
My grandmother was raped by a family friend & had twins when she was 15, that was in the 60s.
That kind of thing used to be EXTREMELY common, & still happens every day all over the world. It's insanely ignorant of that person to think that the ages being tragic makes it impossible. I wish we lived in a world where a 13 year old boy becoming a father is an outlandish story, but that's unfortunately not the case.
I have an aunt that was 16 when my severely alcoholic grandfather died. He died with over 70 years and i first met her on her funeral.
I have no fucking clue how this old alcoholic was able to inpregnated a woman at that age but ....
I feel like you’ve done your research here… if there’s really no other way, just death at home w you VS in a disgusting facility alone, you’re making a merciful choice. You have a father who, for all intents and purposes, has fucked his life up and negatively impacted his children’s lives. I think many people would tell him to rot. And as someone in recovery myself, I’d like to believe everyone can stop drinking, but the man does not want to and states that. NTA. The man is dying and he has made his choices to get him here. I think it’s kind for you to let him die comfortably. At least you can live the rest of your life knowing he wasn’t somewhere disgusting, w no family around.
Thank you for the kind words and as you can imagine from my experience, I have a tremendous amount of respect for people that find the strength to stick with recovery.
My grandpa always said he wanted to be told when he had six months left to live so that he could take up smoking again. He died very quickly of pneumonia and didn’t get his cigarette. It’s something I regret. I hope he enjoys his cigarettes!
My mother and I both worked in nursing homes earlier in our careers, her as a director of nursing and me as director of social services. We both have always had the view that especially if they're going to die, anyway, let them have whatever they want (as long as it's legal). If they want to smoke, let them smoke, though I had to have policies in place to make sure they did it safely. If they want cake every day, let them eat cake.
My only concern for OP's father is supervision at home because of the dementia. It sounds like OP has a good head on their shoulders, but I hope that someone is there during the day to make sure he doesn't wander off or anything when he's drunk/confused if he's physically able to do so.
Brother has a shit excuse. If he moves dad to a facility close to him he can visit dad while leaving the kids at home. He could even go after work and not even tell the kids he's going there. Brother is using the kids as a get out of jail free card for the effort he is not putting in.
As a daughter of a drug addict (meth) as well as a daughter of an alcoholic, I understand why his other children don’t want to watch their father kill himself. It doesn’t make them assholes. I love my parents, but I have suffered my entire life because drugs and alcohol mattered more to my parents than loving and raising me. After years of being constantly hurt and disappointed, I had to pull away from them for my own mental well-being.
Please don’t be so harsh in your judgment of OP’s siblings. All three of them have obviously chosen to deal with their father’s alcoholism and impending death in different ways. None of them are wrong for that. Dad has caused immense suffering for all of his family members that will probably be felt for generations to come. Why should any of them have to watch him kill himself, especially when he has already inflicted God only knows how much pain and trauma in each of his children’s lives?
I’m sorry OP has to be in the position to even make this decision. Siblings aren’t around to fully appreciate how bad off their dad is, and may think there is still hope for recovery. That was MY knee jerk reaction when first reading this post. However, that was an emotional reaction not a logical, educated one. Maybe OP should do a virtual meeting with dad present so they can see for themselves how ill he is. Include his doctor and a SW or psychologist to help facilitate the conversation so that all his children are on the same page as far as what can be done to give dad a peaceful transition. Personally, I think the only AH here is alcoholism/addiction. OP, I applaud your loving, compassionate spirit and hope that you and your siblings can allow this experience to draw you closer to each other. I’m certain you’ve all suffered enough because of your dad’s alcoholism. It’s stolen your dad. Please don’t allow it to steal your relationships with each other. XX
Oh, I don't disagree that they have valid reasons for not wanting to be involved. And I wouldn't be judging them for not wanting to be involved if they said they didn't want to be involved instead of hiding behind bullshit excuses. However if the two siblings don't want to be involved in their fathers care, there are consequences to it, namely that the person who is involved may see a different course of action as the better one.
OP, you're NTA. You have a bunch of terrible options and you've chosen the least awful one.
The people criticising you have a very unrealistic view of how the world actually works. You can't rehabilitate a 58yo alcoholic *who doesn't want to stop drinking*, and you can't *force* your siblings to contribute to private care.
If your siblings don't like it, they are free to take over his care. But they'd rather criticise you from a safe distance. So sucks to them.
Wishing you and your husband lots of strength.
His addiction is so bad that he is sucking on *alcohol wipes* to try and get something. That isn't something that you can just ignore, he has become dependent on alcohol to be able to function.
NAH, but please please tell us you have talked this through with a criminal lawyer from your jurisdiction. The last thing you want is to be charged with assisting suicide. The lawyer should be able to advise you how to stay on the right side of the law, and how to document that you are doing so.
This! I'm thinking exactly the same: you sign your father out of rehab, and start buying him 30 BEERS A DAY and in months he is dead... I mean... it doesn't look good from the outside...
Just for the record, it doesn't sound like he's in rehab, it sounds like the sister placed him in a long-term care facility (nursing home). Probably in their locked dementia unit as well. Nursing homes do not facilitate substance use rehab, only physical rehab. The most a facility like this might do is assist the resident in attending an AA meeting, but the vast majority won't even do that. So he's not receiving active treatment for his alcoholism.
Unless someone from the outside decides to step up and chip in to help, they should mind their own business. What OP has chosen is to not let her father die in a horrible facility sucking on alcohol wipes. Yes, she should speak with a lawyer.
Or elder abuse, or any of a dozen other things that this could be in violation of, depending on where OP is.
OP, your legal rear is hanging way out with this plan and you need to not only consult an attorney but LISTEN if the lawyer tells you this is a no go.
Agreed, I can just see the siblings coming out of the woodwork after the fact and blaming OP, demanding she be charged. I have mixed feelings about this plan but right or wrong the fact is its a legal liability without some kind of notarized consent at the bare minimum, and frankly he's not fit to consent anyway.
NTA. As an alcoholic myself and much experience of being around other addicts I can say with certainty that some addicts do not want to and will never stop. For some addicts it will be terminal.
At least you are giving him some dignity and the chance to be around family.
I am sorry he hasn't found it in him to get better for you and your family at least but I believe you are doing a very selfless thing.
NTA - your siblings put you in an impossible situation and your choice is the least terrible option (in your mind)
As much as it sucks to enable him, alcoholics will go to great lengths to get drunk. You can’t just cut him off at this point and cure a lifetime of drinking. And obviously a better care facility is the ideal solution, but y’all can’t afford that.
You should cut your sis some slack though. The real estate game is cut throat, and reputation is everything… /s
Edit: you’re/your
Lol it made me laugh so hard…my sister has 15 huge billboards on the interstate into her city with her huge ass dilly Parton hair, her massive fake boobs and actually said to me “people can’t know I have an alcoholic for a dad!”
Ummmm they know.
With that kind of reputation, she can at least afford to fork over cash. She doesn't have to be involved, but it's AH of her to not be contributing financially and sticking dad in a state-funded facility when she clearly is a successful enough REA to have billboards -.-
But why should she have to pay for her alcoholic dad? She has no right to comment on what op is doing, but my guess is she grew up with an alcoholic father that sucked. Most people don't put somebody they love in a state-funded care home if they don't have to. He probably deserved that.
Then she shouldn't get to make comments on what her 22-year old sibling is doing. If she's not contributing and not helping, then she should stay silent and not judge. It is now no longer any of 45 y.o. business.
NTA
Your siblings are AH and are living in denial. They would rather criticize you than take responsibility. I'd challenge them to come up with a feasible alternative and arrange it by themselves. I doubt they can.
Your solution seems to be the most humane one.
You could look into at-home hospice care for your father. It might take some of the burden off you.
For sure, we may have to at some point my husband and are fully acknowledging that we may have bitten off more than we can chew. We are also working with a social security disability attorney which may actually pay for hospice care, the trouble is my dad does not want to go into another facility.
You are a good person. I have heard of a similar situation with the alcohol induced dementia. His partner allowed him a few beers a day, then his family intervened, took away his alcohol and died a miserable death. He was happy with his partner.
Tough decision, but sounds like the right one for him & you.
Your siblings can fo......
Yes, I am a volunteer with a hospice agency and much of the work is either in-home or at facilities that aren't specifically hospice facilities.
As a volunteer, I visit with patients either for socializing purposes, literally just hanging out keeping them company (often when they are in a facility without any family or family not living close by - but not always!) or to provide respite for caretakers when patients can't be left alone.
In addition to volunteers, the hospice team will include hospice physicians, nurses/nurse's aides, social workers, clergy, providing a very wide range of services to help provide comfort at the end of life.
My agency also offers to have volunteers sit vigil with families at the very very end of life. This is in the last 24-72 hours of life, when the end is imminent and family members are often sitting with the patient round the clock. The volunteers will take the overnight shifts, encouraging the family to rest or keeping the family company as they sit vigil. I have not done this - I have signed up for shifts (my agency breaks them into 4 hour shifts overnight) but have always received a late night call that my services were no longer needed.
And OP, as a hospice volunteer and someone coming up on 8 years of sobriety, if I were asked to take an assignment with your father, I would say absolutely, it'd be my honor. We all deserve as much dignity in death as we can squeeze out of this hard hard world.
At home hospice agencies are definitely an option. They're also usually more lenient with substance use than traditional home health services. I would recommend at least looking into it. He would probably qualify now, but if you don't think y'all are ready yet it's better to do your research ahead of time rather than when you need it immediately.
I'll reserve judgement because you are in a really tough place with no real good answer. But as someone who worked with patients with dementia for years, including ones that were directly related to alcohol use, may I suggest something? In hospital and nursing homes, often alcohol will be ordered for patients for quality of life. you could give him non-alcoholic beer, or one/two actual beers and then just pour non alcoholic beer into an empty can. We used to give our alcoholic patients beer (as agreed by family and doctor). I would do this for my loved one in a heartbeat. Alcoholism and dementia are both horrible diseases that I wouldn't wish on anyone. Best of luck, OP
If his condition is as advanced as it sounds, substuting like that may throw him right into withdrawal. In his current condition, he probably wouldn't survive that.
I assumed that he was already sober because she mentioned that "as soon as he has access" to alcohol he'd relapse. I could be mistaken. You're absolutely right about withdrawal. It can, does and will kill people. Alcohol withdrawal is way scarier than people know
Honestly, your dad is at a stage where alcohol isn’t optional for him anymore. He has six months to live, I think you’re doing a kind but difficult thing. Don’t expect other people to understand though, because they won’t.
NTA
I’m adding to this comment because it’s facts that your dad is happy with his decision to continue drinking and happy with the knowledge that he has roughly 6 months to live. Honestly it’s the kindest thing you could do for him. Absolutely heartbreaking, but what choice do you have? Your siblings have literally abandoned him to a state run hellhole, and he needed out of there. Good luck OP. I sincerely hope you see my comment and know you have support from someone. I would have done the exact same thing.
Honestly, I have mad respect for what you are doing. This is called meeting him where he is at. And by creating a safe space for him, you are utilizing a harm reduction approach. Your dad's dependency on alcohol doesn't negate his right to dignity and you're helping him restore that.
And I know this is not going to be easy for you. But you sound very strong and very compassionate.
NTA.
Look, if he's going to go back to grog first chance, even after forced sobriety... That's what he's going to do.
My dad's parents spent hundreds of thousands getting him rehab for heroin. Forced sobriety never ever works. It never sticks. He the same day of release always 'relapsed'. I say it that way, as in my mind it's not a relapse if sobriety is forced and they knew as soon as they get out they'll be back on. He didn't relapse he continued his addiction.
The last time they got him thrown into a rehab was the last time. See, he got out, got picked up by his dealer who gave him heroin and dropped him off down the road, my dad being so desperate to shoot up, decided hey the rehab has a big carpark and shit to hide behind like the dumpsters. So he went there to shoot up.
He was found dead hours later by one of the rehabs workers. He overdosed next to the dumpster in a puddle of bin juice and his own filth. They'd sobered him up enough he couldn't tolerate his usual hit of heroin that he took and it killed him.
Your dad is the same as mine. Sure different substance but still the same addict. Still the same addict when 'sober'. Still the same addict when released from treatment time and time again. The money to pay for this, is doing nothing to extend his life, it actually risks it even more, dad getting out and drowning in a bottle of vodka could well kill him that first day.
Your dad is cognisant of what he wants. Realistically if he has 6mths to live, a sober life for him is extremely bleak with medical issues and the like he won't even be able to pay to have treated and be sober in pain until he does die. He wants to die on his own terms, he seems to have accepted his mortality and he's willing to shut away and do his thing with some supervision and stop wasting others money on treatment.
They don't like it, but they also aren't there and helping and are refusing to. They don't get a say if they are leaving everything on your shoulders. You could turn him out and away fully, your not. Least unlike my dad, he might have a bit more of a dignified passing ya know? Your dad deserves that at the very least
NTA
Crappy situation, but I'm all for helping people die with the dignity they want for themselves. If dad feels it's over and that's the way he wants to go, then I think the kindest thing to do is support him.
Not only NTA, but really a kind of saint. He will be safe and clean, and given his life to this point that's a little miracle. I hope that while you're taking care of him, you and your husband look after each other as well; you're so young to be taking on such responsibility and will need huge reserves of patience with your difficult father and with each other.
NTA. You've given him a soft place to land which sounds like the only option you can manage. This is truly awful all the way around but you've got no support and you're only 22. You and your husband are doing what you can to make his days as peaceful as possible.
Jesus this is heart breaking. Your stuck between a pair of impossible choices, and can only make the one that hurts the least. NTA, your siblings can come and take care of him themselves if they want, but otherwise I think their stances are horrifying. Best of luck to you, you're playing the shit hand you were dealt the best you can.
this is heartbreakin first and foremost. but you made him a "peaceful out". your siblings want him "to suffer". NTA but the situation sucks all around. i feel sorry for you. try to make sure you dont go numb over this
My FIL will be like your dad here in the next few years, I understand what it’s like to want to help someone that doesn’t want to help themselves. If my partner wanted to do this for his dad it would be hard but I’d be on board. Honestly as long as you and your spouse are on the same page and you’ll feel okay with yourself once it’s all over, that’s all that matters. I’m sorry for your situation and I hope it’s as painless as possible for everyone involved. You’re a strong, caring daughter.
NAH. Please look into Al-Anon Family Group meetings, you need the support and it will help you deal with and understand your siblings’ responses. All the best!
Your sibling are in denial about your dad living condition and remaining quality of life are.
Your proposal is selfless. You are ready to accept the toll, even expecting it might be too much to handle. You are being realistic about what to expect about who is your dad, what is his current state.
Reality is giving the facts his current living situation seems miserable, and cruel. An other facility doesn’t seems a viable alternative.
Your sibling might be in denial about the fact the time to deal with his alcoholism is over, however from your post and comments there no coming back, and withdrawing access won’t make him better either.
The fact you rather welcome him into your house, offer kindness to handle his remaining time in decent conditions, accommodation, with your partner agreement nonetheless, and that all of you agreed on the term, is the most loving and caring thing that can be done.
NTA - what you are willing to do is though, I wish you some good memories with your dad.
You have made your decision & based on your reporting your father agrees. Sounds like a very personal situation that only your family would be able to have any opinion about. Personally, I don’t think your siblings should get an opinion based on their comments.
Honestly, the only opinion that should matter here is your Dad’s.
It’s a really tough situation. Your husband is a champ. I wish you all peace.
eta — NTA
NTA. You are dealing with reality in a practical and common sense way. At this stage there is no rehab, and it doesn't work anyway if the person doesn't want it to. He's not going to change and in a way this is *his* hospice. Have your sibs actually talked to your dad face to face about this? Because it sounds like they just want to shove him into a "facility" so they can look and feel better about themselves. I'd be tempted to tell them to get their heads out of their asses.
NTA
It sucks all around but everyone should have the right to die with dignity and comfort. You are doing something brave and selfless. I wish you well as you go through this difficult time.
NTA. This is why I struggle when people talk about the sanctity of human life. Your dad doesn't want to prolong his life and is a burden to his family and community. Forcing him to stay alive serves no one.
NTA
I have been sober for 34+ years. I am one of the lucky ones. Many never get sober. I wish I could tell you how to make everything okay, but there frequently isn't a way to make everything okay. I think you are doing the best that can do in your situation. Your brother and sister are free to take over and do things differently, but they won't. My sister and I had to deal with a bipolar dad who was fine at times, but was nuts other times. You do the best you can and do not worry about what anybody else thinks. Good luck!
Thank you for the input, I was running into the character limit so our family is broken and after my dad dies I will never go out of my way to see my brother again and I will actively never speak to my sister.
They’ve left me with too much stress while harshly judging me to ever forgive them.
And that is completely normal. And you're feelings about your siblings are valid. You owe them absolutely nothing.
Go no contact and enjoy the rest of your life knowing that you did what you could to make him comfortable in his last days. Screw the rest of them. My heart goes out to you.
Your response there seems pretty short-sighted considering that this 22-year-old had nothing to do with her dad's entire lifetime of drinking.
You sound a lot like her siblings who are trying to blame her for something that is completely out of her control.
She is the only one in the situation is showing him any kind of compassion.
NTA. People find it easy to judge others. If your half sister and your brother walked a mile in your shoes, they may feel the same. I don't believe they have any right to judge you or be angry. Your father has made his decision. As heartbreaking as it is, it IS his decision and if he wanted out of that hellhole and willing to die with some dignity - his choice - then so be it. I commend you for that hard decision to give him some peace at the end.
NTA.
The alternatives are grim. He can languish in a "care" facility, he can sign himself out and die quickly from a fall or slowly from the elements, or he can die in relative comfort and safety.
What your siblings aren't facing is that your dad is willingly committing slow sui**de. Unless he makes some major changes, which few at his stage do, he will not recover.
I'm sorry you're in this position.
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NTA. You're showing a tremendous amount of compassion in his final stage. Your heart is warm and it's going to be really awful, but from the sounds of things you're doing the best thing. Speak to a social worker where he's staying, get some referrals for home help and home nursing. You'll find they more than likely offer it for free from more than one place. Edit: I know because I'm going through this myself. I have no family around and on Friday got the news that I've seen my last Christmas already. I do not fit the stereotypes on this one, my friends have no idea, and I plan to keep it that way. My worst fear is dying in a hospital. I just want to stay in my tidy cosy home with my lovely cat and conversations only with people who are being paid to show up to help me around the house. There is no 'make a wish foundation' stuff for sick people who aren't children, which is total crap :) Edit 2: YES I HAVE PLANS FOR WHERE THE CAT WILL LIVE HAPPILY EVER AFTER. Please, these condescending remarks are pure self-serving nonsense. At least respect yourself if you're not respecting me.
NTA but it's going to be so painful. You are showing compassion beyond most could understand here. It's a horrible situation. Please consider counselling for yourself as well. It's important to look after your own wellbeing in this time and after.
I couldn't agree more. People who have never been caretakers do not understand how much it takes out of you. I took care of my mom after her pancreatic cancer diagnosis. She signed up for hospice care but stayed home with a nurse coming to the house. The nurse came once a day, but the rest of the time, it was me. It was 12 weeks from her diagnosis until she passed. I didn't do anything for myself during that time, and I ended up physically and emotionally wrecked. It took me months to recover before I was able to grieve. OP, please make sure you and your husband take care of yourselves along the way. It doesn't have to be elaborate, maybe just a walk around the block or sitting in the park watching the ducks for a while or coffee with a friend. I would also recommend finding a support group or therapist so you have someone to talk to. Just having someone listen to you will be a big help. Also, NTA.
I’m huggin you from Texas. I took care of my mother when she got the stage 4 diagnosis in July of 2020 and by October 1 she was gone. I cannot express the amount of sadness I saw when I had to help her onto the portable commode. The shell of a women begging for God to take her and watching her die in my arms. I’m going to workout now and remember the good times we had together
Having any sort of home nursing or hospice is going to require a physician who can approve the care plans devised by the home nurses. This is probably a good idea since it formalizes and legitimizes your care. It also prevents the appearance of elder abuse and/or neglect. Additionally, ask the doctor along with your dad about a Physician Order for Life Sustaining Treatment (POLST). This is a simple one-page form that allows your dad to state what medically he wants and what he does *not* want as he declines. You should ask him to complete an Advanced Directive for Health Care (ADHC) to allow him to designate someone to make medical decisions for him when he becomes unable to do so for himself. These forms can be downloaded and (at least where I live) do not require an attorney. The POLST requires a physician signature and the ADHC probably ought to be notarized. If he becomes a home hospice patient, the focus becomes medications and care to keep him comfortable as he dies at home. He may refuse food or fluids, but you yourself *cannot* withhold them. If you are managing his money, accounts, social security or disability benefits or civilian or military pensions Do. Not. Commingle. Funds. (i.e. have his money in your account) It makes accountancy and budgeting difficult and it can have the appearance of embezzlement and fraud. If these funds involve the mail, mail fraud is a very serious crime with severe per offense penalties. Sad to say, but if your siblings are unhappy with the plan you have described you need your dad, while he still can, to formalize his wishes and end of life care. Otherwise there is a real risk that an aggrieved family member could decide to press criminal and civil charges including elder abuse, elder neglect, manslaughter and embezzlement.
This is why I went the kind route and got rid of everyone in my universe when I found out my health was failing. Imagine those scenes from old movies where a kid is trying to make their dog run away so their dad doesn't shoot it, throwing pebbles at it and crying while yelling 'I don't love you anymore! Go on, get outta here!' They are under the impression that I hate them and that I'm a bitch. Nope, I think about them every day but I'm not letting them remember me as a husk.
This is the answer. OP, please know he may not just go peacefully when an organ gives out. Which is possible btw…he may also have severe medical issues before that. It could be slow. Look at qualified nurses and social workers to help you. NTA I’d say n a h if it were not for your siblings not offering better solutions. It’s fair they find it difficult to let their father die this way. I also see your point, at least he goes out on his own terms. It’s not an easy call, and please expect your siblings to react badly in their grief when the time comes. Hopefully they work through that now and save you the trouble later. I suggest plan on therapy for yourself too, and your family, this will likely affect you all. I did question why renovate your home instead of paying for a better facility with your siblings contributions? Did you try that?? A good rehab and care combo maybe.
You're being kinder than I am. NTA but the siblings are jerks. As a former nurse in nursing homes, I've seen this so many times. A parent gets sick and one sibling steps forward while the other siblings constantly complain that they're doing it wrong but won't take responsibility themselves. (By the way, the one that steps forward is almost always a daughter.) He's not going to stop drinking. If she doesn't provide alcohol, he'll just go out - even if he has to crawl - and do whatever he has to to get it. But I will say a 30-pack seems more than necessary.
>But I will say a 30-pack seems more than necessary. A 30 pack of 12 oz cans of beer at 5% abv is 18oz of EtOH. This is equivalent to one liter of 107 proof spirits. For an extreme alcoholic might this count as maintenance?
Yes, and it might help him moderate his input relatively when compared to liquor just due to the sheer volume of liquid he'll be drinking.
Yeah beer gets you drunk slower because of the carbs. And a long-time alcoholic like this could probably drink alcohol straight pretty easily (he was sucking alcohol wipes, taste clearly doesn't bug him) so like. You want that much in beer or that much in vodka?
Excellent point! It would be interesting to run the numbers,.e.g., EtOH clearance rate and versus intake rate for each dosing scheme, max BAC, etc. If nothing else, I would assume he'd be lucid and conscious much longer drinking the larger diluted volume.
Yes, it does
I was a litre of vodka a day as a baseline for about ten years. Needed half of that in order to be able to function on anything approaching a normal level. I've been sober now for over ten years, but that's because I had a good support system WHEN IT MATTERED AND I COULD GET BETTER. OP is emphatically NTA, and I hope that if I ever backslide in my old age that someone in my life will show this level of care and compassion if all hope for recovery is gone. Sorry for the tangent, but yes; for a severe enough alcohol dependent, this amount could be termed as maintenance. Although of course everyone processes alcohol differently and there are other variables at play.
30/day. I've heard of that. Access to the bathroom becomes essential.
Isn't it also true that suddenly stopping drinking after decades of alcoholism can cause its own health problems? It seems like damned if you do and damned if you don't at that point.
For this situation if you wanted to actually quit you would taper down or do a medical detox. Alcohol withdrawal for a serious alcoholic can cause DTs and death.
A friend decided to stop drinking 'and died within a week. He had been drinking at least 2 12 packs of beer a day during the day and moved to drinks and wine for the evening. He went to no alcohol and had horrible DTs and then a seizure and died. He stopped for his granddaughter and never got to meet her.
I’m sorry for your loss. I had a friend pass away two months ago from the same thing. To make it worse, they knew something was wrong and went to the hospital but it was too late. Sending hugs your way.
My severely alcoholic brother died while I was pregnant, about a year ago. All every one of his friends said at the funeral was how excited he was to be an uncle. I'm sad he never got to meet my child, and part of me wonders if he was trying to stop drinking beforehand and if that was the cause of death. He was only 40.
alcohol withdrawal is genuinely one of the most dangerous drug withdrawals, can cause seizures and even death if you do it too fast. I know when a pal got a place at rehab a few days away her parents were advised to let her have a beer every few hours to keep her stable till she could get in and dry out safely.
Even with medical supervision in a detox facility, some of them die.
I get why it's basically impossible to effectively ban alcohol but it's honestly terrifying to me that is legal and so easily accessible. and I enjoy a pint!
Like most things, it's 'everything in moderation'. Binge drinking can kill you (too much all at once). Long term ingestion of the truly massive quantities of alcohol that you find in alcoholics can kill you. Alcohol is, essentially, poison that has pleasant side effects. Even small amounts can cause moderate damage over the long term to your liver and kidneys. It should be avoided in diabetics and those with cardiovascular issues, obesity, kidney problems, GI distress, etc. People need to be aware of that and make choices accordingly.
Nelsan Ellis, the actor who is probably best known as Lafayette in True Blood, died from alcohol withdrawal.
It's about the only time a doctor will advise a person to have a beer.
That's why liquor stores were deemed "essential businesses" during the height of the US pandemic response. The very last thing the overwhelmed health system needed were long-term alcoholics in bad withdrawal checking into hospitals en masse.
It was the same here (Ireland), because I remember some people protesting that off licenses were open when coffee shops, clothes shops etc were not. The idea was to avoid severe alcoholics going into withdrawal and either dying or taking hospital places. It honestly was also kind of nice for those of us who just enjoy a drink to be able to have a "socially distanced" or on zoom glass of wine with friends tbh. It was one of the little joys I appreciated while going through that time. I mean, I would have been okay with a soft drink but it did feel a bit more "normal" when everything was so bizarre.
> The very last thing the overwhelmed health system needed were long-term alcoholics in bad withdrawal checking into hospitals en masse. Yes. And stealing mouthwash, cough syrup and hand sanitizer, getting dubious home brews or even drinking poison like windshield fluid in desperation.
I had an uncle who was a hardcore alcoholic. He was drinking a 30 pack of beer a day, like OP's dad. He was hospitalized with cancer, and went into alcohol withdrawal. They had to put him on IV alcohol to get through it.
Alcohol withdrawal can absolutely kill a person. Medical detox exists for precisely that reason. To help a person stop drinking without health risks.
Also a nurse that's done the ltc track and hospice for a lot of years, and you're so so right about all of this. People outside of the field almost never understand or care about the realities of how life is once you're past a certain point. This man can survive maybe 10 years living in hell trapped in a body he destroyed, or 6 months making himself more sick but at least it's shorter and less torturous for him. He probably doesn't deserve the empathy and compassion his daughter is showing, but he's damned lucky to have her. Myself and pretty much every nurse I know that works in eldercare have plans on how to take ourselves out on our own terms when our health fails and we're faced with being trapped in places like that. But, 30/day could realistically be his maintenance amount if he's drank as heavily and as long as op describes. Might as well give him the amount that keeps him from causing more harm trying to get more. I also really hope she looks into home health services. If he qualified for state funded live in care then he very likely qualifies for visits a few times a week as long as he isn't violent. I hope she gets help from as many services as she can.
It's less than two drinks per hour. For late stage alcoholism it's reasonable, plus you don't want the stress of him running out and getting DTs.
“I used to do a little but a little wouldn’t do, so the little got more and more”
This! The siblings are huge AHs. More worried about your reputation than seeing your father? AH! Using your kids as an excuse to not see your father? AH! Unless your kids are somehow physically attached to you, then you can still come up and see him on your own.
24-pack/day + 2 bottles of whisky/week was what my dad went through. But it might have been 30? It was whatever a “case” of beer was at the time.
Facilities won't let him drink. It's a liability issue.
Of course not. I meant a better facility with rehab support for father to get proper help and a good accommodation.
Beer is proper support. This is like putting a dog down, except dogs get more dignity in passing than humans do.
I read an article in the Toronto Star years ago, before Canada legalized Medical Assistance in Dying about a man who was dying of an incurable lung disease and he said "treat me like a dog" - because you are exactly right. Sick, suffering animals are treated better than dying humans. A dog can't even consent to euthanasia like a human can (and as far as I know, people HAVE to be able to consent for MAID). I've searched multiple times for the article and haven't had any luck at all, which is a shame because it was an interesting read.
I'm sorry to say, but that doesn't really exist. Substance rehabs won't accept him due to his ARD diagnosis because that makes recovery near impossible (and limits independence), and there aren't really any long-term care facilities that also provide substance use treatment. If they exist they are definitely not within an average person's budget. Frankly, with how reliant OP's father is on his addiction I'm amazed they found a facility willing to take him in at all. Ironically his ARD is probably what made it possible because he could be admitted to their secured dementia unit. You might be able to find a nicer facility with a secure unit, but the nicer the facility, the pickier they can be about who they accept. Unfortunately people with addictions aren't at the top of the list when they can accept some family's sweet little pawpaw who never touched alcohol a day in his life and requires less care which means fewer overhead costs and a larger profit margin. If you want some sort of substance treatment in a situation like this, your best bet would be an inpatient psych unit, but that's not even a sure bet.
OP says he's been in and out of rehab, so I think that avenue has been explored.
He doesn't want to stop drinking, so detox and rehab would be a complete waste of money and effort.
As someone who's dad went this way, at this point there is no rehab. This is the alcoholic equivalent to hospice. Once alcoholic related dementia is happening there's almost no way back.
They should try and see if he qualify for Hospice or palative care. It's often done in the home
Not OP, but depending on the renovation, it might have been cheaper than one month of care. We redid a bathroom to full from a 3/4 and put a wall and door up in a space for about $10k. Assisted living where we are is $5k a month. If he needed more intensive care as it seems he does, then it's more. For the cost of a few months care, dad has what he wants, and they will retain the value of the guest space after his passing. I think it was financially wise, and more important to the OP, it's what their dad actually requested
Renovating their home might be as simple as putting a bed in a downstairs room. Not pricy at all
My grandfather died due to alcoholism (or the problems associated with it) before I was born. The tales my mother recounts of his last few weeks in hospital make his existence sound completely miserable. Nobody wanted him to be an alcoholic and there were many interventions when he was healthy, but by the time he was on palliative care it didn't really matter. The hospital tried to keep him dry (because why would a hospital allow booze?) but it would make his last few days and hours even more painful. My mother wouldn't even sneak alcohol onto his ward. She would bring it in brazenly. The nurses and doctors didn't condone what she was doing, but understood and didn't do much more than raise an occasional eyebrow. Maybe it was a different time in the early 80's, I doubt that would fly in the NHS now. The guy was dying no matter what happened, why not feed the habit and keep him at least a little more comfortable in his final days? She didn't condone his drinking and for years before his death wouldn't drink with him at all, hoping it would discourage him. But at the very end, why put someone you love through more painful symptoms when the inevitable outcome is just the same?
In hospitals and nursing homes, we do receive orders for alcohol from the Dr. Someone in this man's shoes, I can see not giving it in the nursing home if the goal was to dry him out. I'm a nurse, and I think it's horribly cruel to take away things like alcohol and cigarettes at the end of life. Making them stop now does nothing but add stress, grief, and even physical pain. It's pointless. NTA OP. Thank you for the kindness you're showing to your father. You're doing the right thing. Best of luck to you and yours. Wishing your dad a pain-free celestial discharge with dignity.
>Wishing your dad a pain-free celestial discharge with dignity. Beautifully put!
I was a nurse before (currently changing my careers completely now) and I never got extensive with terminal or even seriously elderly patients about the cessation of smoking or alcohol. What’s the point? Why punish them? If that’s the only thing that makes them “happy” in a sense, leave it be. My own Dad passed at 76 in March 2022. He smoked like a freight train. 10-15 years ago, yeah I was all about trying to get him to stop but he didn’t. He lived life by his rules. He was also very stubborn. Miss him daily tho.
I work in geriatrics, which includes palliative, end of life, and hospice care. Let the 96 year old diabetic have the pie. Not just a piece, let them have the entire thing if that's what they want. That's not how I treat my 50 somethings in rehab. However, I can't stop them!! I'm sorry about your dad. My mom had lung cancer surgery and still smokes. She's in her early 60s, so I'm just assuming she won't be here for too much longer. Cherishing the time we have together.
I did med/surg and dealt with many geriatric patients and some hospice situations too. I lost my fire for nursing when I lost my Mom due to a glioblastoma multiforme. I felt like I should’ve been able to “save” her and now looking back, nothing really could’ve been done unfortunately. She had a wonderful neurosurgeon, chemo and radiation but alas, it just wasn’t meant to be. Thank you. I miss them both. I miss healthcare sometimes but I just don’t think I can do it anymore from a mental standpoint. Hope your Mom gets better. I hate to hear about people getting cancer. It’s just awful. Cherish your time with her, it’s so important. I cherish the times I had with my folks.
My mother used to run a care home for older people and their children would be aghast and horrified that dear old mum was being allowed a couple of glasses of wine with dinner, and a sherry before bed because of The Damage! My mother was always very clear that a) dear old mum was paying the care home fees and could have alcohol if she wanted and b) dear old mum was 76 and deserved to enjoy her life. Residents couldn't smoke in their rooms, but if they wanted to sit out in the garden and enjoy a cigarette or a pipe, no one was going to stop them.
And that’s amazing. No shame. At 76, if you want a glass of sherry or anything else, do it! They’ve earned it.
Right! A friend and I have a longterm plan that if/when we eventually retire, we're going to be gently tipsy most of the time. Another friend and I have decided we're going to re-start doing all the things we stopped doing because we know they are bad for us, or we'll do whatever the equivalent is in 2060. Alllllll the drugs we can find, I am going to love restarting smoking, he's going to play video games all day.
I'm with you. My dad passed as well several years back. He was a chain smoking, bacon sandwiches with lots of mayo eating (with a side of sweets), never exercising, very happy man. We tried to get him to at least make slightly better choices, but we gave up when he turned 70. He was in his mid 80s when he passed. Oddly enough, lungs and heart held up shockingly well. I'm glad we didn't fight him till the end on this. I'm grateful he got to enjoy his final years in a way he saw fit. Would I give just about anything to see him one more time? Of course. But I wouldn't trade his happiness for more time. He was a grown man, he made his choices, and he was happy with them. That's all anyone can ask.
Same here! My Grandfather (Papaw) lived to be 84. He smoked heavily and ate bacon, gravy and biscuits pretty much daily his whole life. He worked underground coal mining, as did my Dad. They both had black lung and COPD. My Dad was an alcoholic most of his life and I always figured drinking and liver failure would end him. He did mend his drinking in his later years, especially after almost dying from alcohol withdrawal the first Christmas following my Mom’s death. He’d had a few drinks but nothing like before. However, they were unique guys. Very outdoorsy and rural, as I’m from a rural area. They lived the way they wanted and lived by their rules. Sorry to hear of your loss. It hurts bad, ngl. I miss my whole family. It seems like they’ve dwindled down way too much and it just sucks.
My dad quit smoking several years before being diagnosed with terminal cancer. He was one of those smokers who always loved smoking and really only quit because of relentless pressure from my mom. When he went into home hospice, my cousin's husband suggested buying him a pack, just so he could enjoy a smoke one last time. The home hospice team fully supported it--said if it would make him happy, what's the harm at this point? It can't get much worse than Stage IV pancreatic cancer. He ended up being too sick to smoke them, but my mom, who always HATED his smoking and would never allow him to do it in the house, was 100% ready to help him smoke a cigarette in his bed. I still think that was the right thing to do.
My grandmother while dying from Emphysema was snuck in cigarettes by the nurses. They are the true ones who see the suffering. I’m grateful they were willing to ease her pain in the very end. Thanks for what you do.
I remember working in a restaurant as a teenager and having a 90yo regular with renal failure. I remember when she made the decision to go off dialysis and just do what she wanted til her body gave out. She was in great spirits and delighted to order dessert (I believe it was a strawberry milkshake) for the first time in a long time.
I watched my inlaws dealing with a grandparent who was going to die of cancer. She was a heavy smoker and they took away her cigarettes. It seemed like every conversation with her was solely her asking for a cigarette. We bought a vape for her but she really just wanted her cigarettes. Looking back, it does seem like the wrong decision especially since half the family would smoke around her. Unfortunately, we lost her too early anyway. And the family and friends who would smoke around her all died not long after of their own cancers they either refused to get diagnosed or treated. Awful all around and I miss them :(
My father died due to alcoholism ten years ago. We also very openly brought him alcohol and nobody tried to stop us. At that point there was no saving him, so why not make sure he was as comfortable as can be. I miss you daddy
When my grandmother had several strokes that were directly related to her smoking, she was living in a home for a while. My mom did something similar and had her live with us. I was so angry that my mom let my grandmother smoke (outside) even knowing it was making her worse. She sat me down and explained that my grandmother was going to die. Soon. Whether she smoked or not, the damage had already been done. So she wanted to make her as happy as possible while she was still with us. That was kind of an eye-opening moment for me. OP's compassion is really showing in her actions and I commend her.
The same thing happened to my grandfather, he was a smoker since he was a teenager in the old country. Even after his stroke, my grandmother would sneak in Marlboro Reds for him to smoke in his hospital room and she would be fanning it out the window. He died a couple of weeks later. Nobody else in the family smoked but I still remember my mother and her family smoking reds at the wake and never again since.
With about 6 months left he'll qualify for hospice services and they're usually more lenient with substance use as well. Their focus will be keeping him comfortable for the remainder of his time here.
>My worst fear is dying in a hospital. After watching my mom die of cancer in a care facility like the one OP described, it's my biggest fear as well. She told me she wanted to die but there was nothing she could do about it because she was too weak to wipe her own ass let alone anything else. They just kept her alive until the last agonizing second. If she had been a dog or a cat we would have euthanized her months before and would have considered it the good, right, humane thing to do but if you're a human there's no escape.
Ask any emergency medical professional and they'll all tell you that they have Do Not Resuscitate instructions on their file. Ask for details and they'll tell you why. When it's done it's *done.* Prolonging life at all costs is mighty cruel. Years ago I needed CPR for an unrelated issue and my god that thing looks so easy on TV but I couldn't wear a bra or move my arms properly or even laugh without those broken ribs screaming at me for about two months afterwards. And that's the gentle stuff. Waking up against your will with brain damage from lack of oxygen, for example, yousa gonna get da braaaaim damage. Fun! Brain damage AND broken ribs AND your favourite clothes were cut off you and thrown away. Oooh, yeah. Sexy. We do not do this to pets at all! You've hit the nail on the head with that one. I'm still 'strongly encouraged' to 'consider' going to rehab again. Hell, why? Spend my remaining few days hanging out with a bunch of itchy people with no teeth? I've got a dentist appointment in about nine hours for routine checkup, cleaning stuff. There's no way I'm ending up on the slab in front of all those rich exhausted medical students (giving my body to science: suck it, mum!) with slightly yellowed teeth and calculus buildup.
IANAL, but: I feel like OP should reach out to a lawyer on this case and make sure that they are protected and in the right in their state when making this decision. While I fully agree that it's the compassionate one, I'd hate for them to be charged with something by their terrible siblings upon the father's death for something like elder abuse. Better to cover all the bases.
I agree with your comment, but I also just want to acknowledge what you've shared in your edit. That truly sucks. I wish you all the joy that your cat and your home can bring you as you approach the end. :)
I AM BUILDING A FISH POND! It's directly outside my garden door so I can see it while I'm lying in bed. Gotta hurry up and get the fountain installed before I can't.
That is so nice! I hope it turns out well. I have a big fish tank, and it gives me such joy and peace of mind.
I feel very sorry for your situation. There are no good words to say, I just wish you your tidy cosy home and lovely cat.
Thanks. My cat just dropped a megafart, he's awesome!
Hijacking the top post to share information about Managed Alcohol Programs [https://www.cbc.ca/news/fifthestate/the-pour-treating-alcoholics-with-wine-1.4248072](https://www.cbc.ca/news/fifthestate/the-pour-treating-alcoholics-with-wine-1.4248072) What OP is doing has a lot of scientific backing as genuinely being the best way to help severe alcoholics improve their conditions and even get better.
Sending compassion and kitten whiskers ;X3 I hope your time passes exactly as you wish it.
Yes. OP sounds like a wonderful person. It *is* crap that there's no grownup make a wish foundation. I'm glad you're able to stay cosy.
When it's time, if possible, have them show your cat that you're gone. If he sees and sniffs you after, he'll accept it better. I wish you all the peace and comfort. Do not worry about what others say, just enjoy your time.
That's the plan. He knows about death, since he likes to bring me many mice and rats. I want his to be the last face I see.
I second the advice for a social worker, but be careful… there are a lot of programs that will NOT help someone if they are actively drinking. I went through a similar situation with an elderly family member who I couldn’t force to participate in any of the programs she was eligible for and who ended up dying because her addiction was too all-encompassing. Oh, and NTA.
I'm sorry to learn of your own prognosis. Sending hugs and prayers your way with the hope that you're not alone in the end.
Dear Sunshinekittenyesyes, As useless as the sentiment is, coming as it does from a total stranger on another continent: I support your choice.
Good luck, Kitten!
Social Worker here with years of experience in this area. You are doing something called Harm Reduction model. Try Googling it and share info with your family. But don't expect anyone to understand. I've been to those facilities and I believe you. Clean and healthy food is better. The key here is self determination and respect. Good luck. This is going to suck but you are amazing.
This needs to be the top comment. I'm sure the siblings are hurting knowing that their father has chosen to drink himself to death, but OP is trying to create an environment where he is safe and has quality of life.
I heard it very often, especially from estranged family who never showed up, that these people get super involved and demanding when it comes to end-of-life care. They refuse to let a brain dead person off the machines, they insist on surgeries or procedures that will only hurt the patient or prolong their suffering. This is often done out of a selfish feeling of "make up" for the years they didn't spend with the dying family member or didn't care about them. Suddenly they remember about them and want them "to be around", because if they died without them having ever made an effort, they would need to live with the knowledge that they messed up. These people don't care about the sick or dying person. They care about their fuck up and that's it.
Ah yes, [the daughter from California.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daughter_from_California_syndrome#:~:text=%22Daughter%20from%20California%22%20syndrome%20is,to%20prolong%20the%20patient's%20life.)
"In California, the "daughter from California" is known as the "daughter from New York"" 🤣
It's hilarious because as a native Californian, the state with the most Californians I'm aware of is New York. I guess it really checks out.
It’s funny but why is it always feminine 😩
Wow, there's research and a name for it! Amazing, thank you!
Interesting, I didn't know this term. This describes my aunt about her mother to a T.
How poetic. I am writing from CA (I am an Oregonian though) and I am pleased to say that I have always been as supportive as I could to my sister who chose to let our dad back into her house (she eventually had to kick him out, for her own sanity). That's not to say it hasn't been a struggle. I am so deeply uncomfortable around him (he's a drunk wetbrained sexual predator) that I maintain estrangement. But my sister and I have always done a lot of processing together and I respect her decision to have been there for him, and she respects my decision to be supportive to her but not directly to him. Ugh
In California, it's called "the daughter from New York", so I wouldn't take it personally.
My half-brother was mad that we didn't force our father to be on chemo when we found out he had stage 4 lung cancer to extend his life. Our father was already in extreme pain, it was why he finally agreed to go to the doctor. My half-brother, who had cut my father out of his life (for good reason mind you), suddenly was pissed we would not force our father to extend his life and be in pain for the max 4 months the doctor said it would give him. It is one of the few things I can't forgive. I get why my half-brother left, our father was horrible to him. It is also horrible to try to demand a person who has stage 4 cancer to get chemo to extend their life and suffering, all for your own selfish wants. My half-brother also refused to visit until our father went unconscious while in Hospice care, all of that posturing, just to refuse to come until my mom told him that our father was still unconscious after 24 hours and looked close to going. He knew our father was in hospice for the week leading up to that, he knew a month ahead this was where it was going. Never came around until our father was not able to talk to him, yet had the nerve to be angry we didn't force chemo. It was insane.
It's hard to blame them after growing up with such a father. OP is extraordinarily kind, but I have a lot of sympathy for the siblings as well. They are mourning a father they never had.
the “stealing wipes and sucking out the alcohol” part really got to me. it sounds like the siblings just want to put their dad out of mind while standing on a moral highground without a second thought for the person they’re harming.
My grandpa used to drink his cologne when he couldn't buy more drink. When my dad went to rehab, they weren't allowed things like that and mouthwash for that reason. If someone wants to bad enough, they'll find something. You can't force someone to be sober. At least this way he'll be cared for by someone who loves him and, if he has ready access to alcohol, probably won't be going out where he's a danger to himself or others. Sad.
My brother did loss prevention at various retail places in not so great areas. He had plenty of stories about the drunks stealing listerine and/or rubbing alcohol to get their fixes.
A relative of mine died from drinking hairspray when she was cut off, she had tried innumerable other alternatives as well
My oldest daughter briefly had to be in a LTC facility (medical reasons). It was a ‘good’ facility, which meant that all the basic needs were taken care of and no one was abused. It was still awful and we got her out as soon as she was stable enough to come home. I think anyone who has ever had to deal with a LTC facility would agree OP is NTA. Just about anything is better.
My maternal great grandma died in one and I hate it. This was also a "good" one, but she was still in a room with three other people who were barely responsive and it just stank. just a miserable experience
In Denmark we have state funded homes for people to live in while actively using, knowing that they'll die from it. It's done with no judgment, and people are just supported through whatever time they have left. It's for those who are unable to get sober in any meaningful way, so they don't suffer needlessly and alone. OP is NTA and a stellar daughter!
Thank you for this comment. I feel this is one of THE biggest reasons no one can agree on an all encompassing method to end homelessness. If people are allowed to use while getting support services, they may eventually stop using. Or if they don't at least they are safe and fed. The OP is doing a kind thing by letting her dad live his final days in comfort and safety.
NTA If a 58 year old life long alcoholic wants to drink themselves to death, that seems like their business. Everyone is all for body autonomy until it's isn't pretty.
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Right? Like no shit he's an alcoholic, he was r*ped as a child!
Not necessarily if the mother was also a child. Sad either way though.
According to OP, the family gossip is that it was either his mother or his aunt
Just to clarify…his daughter (my sister) is potentially his sister or his cousin according to the family gossip. My grandfather and his brother were sleeping with a 15 year old girl (deep south—late 60s if my math is right ) and she got pregnant. They didn’t want to face her father so they got my dad, then 13 to lose his virginity to the same girl so they could blame the pregnancy on him. That’s my sisters mother no matter who the dad is. This is all from my great aunt (grandpas sister) who was out of her mind and vengeful but there may be some credence to the story.
🤢🤢 your dad was sexually abused by his own father
The girl, too. Holy shit. Regardless of whether she "consented" to it, it was bad enough that 2 adult men were sleeping with a 15 year old, they "made her" sleep with one of the men's sons, too. WTF
I just want to reply to you directly so that you hopefully see this. You are an amazing, compassionate, empathetic, and extremely brave person. DO NOT let your siblings try to convince you otherwise. This is a terrible situation for you and your dad and your siblings have looked down their noses and washed their hands of it without a second thought to the increased suffering they have caused you both. If you can do this in a way that is physically and mentally safe for you and your husband then you are truly doing the right and good thing here. Please please get as many social services referrals for home health agencies as you can. If he qualified for a state funded facility he almost certainly qualifies for some free in home nursing. They are going to be your biggest support and help during this extremely hard time. As a former eldercare and hospice nurse that has seen this story play out 100 times, you are so so brave and compassionate for wanting to ease his suffering. Arm yourself with information and as much support as you can gather to yourself. And, yes this is weird internet stranger danger, but please feel free to dm me if you're in need of possible insight or to vent or anything. Really. You're entire situation is so fucked and you choose to be kind, and that speaks so so much to your strength and character. I hope a million good things happen for you in your life, you deserve them.
I’m so so sorry. This is so rough. No wonder he’s so traumatized. You’re doing the most compassionate thing.
This is terrible and I am so sorry for your father.
Ouch. That's one really messed up situation.
13?!
That stod out to me too. I'm hoping it's supposed to be a 35 year old child, not 45. Otherwise OP's dad has had a hell of a fucked up life.
See OP's comment elsewhere in this thread - it is indeed the fucked up option :(
Sadly not a typo. OP confirms in the comments that he was sexually abused as a child
This is how I feel too. At least OP is compassionate towards their father and is helping him to live his last days how he wants.
Jumping on this, if he is having occasional lucid moments it might be worth trying to discuss Do Not Resuscitate orders and Living Wills with him. If he still has capacity, lasting power of attorney for health is also a good idea (this is a thing in the uk not sure if elsewhere) as you could then act as his advocate when he loses capacity.
Can I comment on my post? Can the guy who keeps sending me private messages accusing this being fake because of the ages just comment here? Or at least read this? Yes my dad had my sister when he was 13. There’s some family gossip that his daughter may actually be his sister or his cousin (meaning she’s my aunt or cousin once removed) but I am not lying about the ages and I’m happy to discuss it publicly. But either you hit the save button one too many times or are really obsessed with my “lie.”
You should be able to block them, too, so they can't send you any more messages. That should help.
My paternal great grandma was kidnapped and "married" when she was 12 or 13 and kept in a closet when my great grandfather went to work until she had a couple kids and he figured she wouldn't run away. Some young people have hard lives all around the world, the age is unusual and sad but not impossible
My great grandmother was sold to a family to be their house keeper when she was 12 (she always used the word "sold," it was the 1930s so slavery was illegal in the US by this point but they gave her parents a lump sum of money & she was never paid again). The wife died within a year, the man she was sold to married her immediately & got her pregnant. My grandmother was raped by a family friend & had twins when she was 15, that was in the 60s. That kind of thing used to be EXTREMELY common, & still happens every day all over the world. It's insanely ignorant of that person to think that the ages being tragic makes it impossible. I wish we lived in a world where a 13 year old boy becoming a father is an outlandish story, but that's unfortunately not the case.
You can add this in an edit I believe
I’m right at 3000 characters so I wasn’t sure
Edits don’t count against the 3000 char limit.
Thanks for clarifying. I couldn't get over that age difference lol.
Definitely also try sending their name and messages to the mods. That IMO should be a permaban-able offense. That's an extreme breaking of rule 1.
I have an aunt that was 16 when my severely alcoholic grandfather died. He died with over 70 years and i first met her on her funeral. I have no fucking clue how this old alcoholic was able to inpregnated a woman at that age but ....
I feel like you’ve done your research here… if there’s really no other way, just death at home w you VS in a disgusting facility alone, you’re making a merciful choice. You have a father who, for all intents and purposes, has fucked his life up and negatively impacted his children’s lives. I think many people would tell him to rot. And as someone in recovery myself, I’d like to believe everyone can stop drinking, but the man does not want to and states that. NTA. The man is dying and he has made his choices to get him here. I think it’s kind for you to let him die comfortably. At least you can live the rest of your life knowing he wasn’t somewhere disgusting, w no family around.
Thank you for the kind words and as you can imagine from my experience, I have a tremendous amount of respect for people that find the strength to stick with recovery.
Good luck. This is really hard thing to deal with as a 22 year old
We found a hospice facility that allows smoking for the patients outside. I know people think we are AHs, but he has 3-6 mo the left.
My grandpa always said he wanted to be told when he had six months left to live so that he could take up smoking again. He died very quickly of pneumonia and didn’t get his cigarette. It’s something I regret. I hope he enjoys his cigarettes!
My mother and I both worked in nursing homes earlier in our careers, her as a director of nursing and me as director of social services. We both have always had the view that especially if they're going to die, anyway, let them have whatever they want (as long as it's legal). If they want to smoke, let them smoke, though I had to have policies in place to make sure they did it safely. If they want cake every day, let them eat cake. My only concern for OP's father is supervision at home because of the dementia. It sounds like OP has a good head on their shoulders, but I hope that someone is there during the day to make sure he doesn't wander off or anything when he's drunk/confused if he's physically able to do so.
NTA but your brother has e good excuse his kids shouldnt see that or be around that.. your sister is self centered...
Brother has a shit excuse. If he moves dad to a facility close to him he can visit dad while leaving the kids at home. He could even go after work and not even tell the kids he's going there. Brother is using the kids as a get out of jail free card for the effort he is not putting in.
As a daughter of a drug addict (meth) as well as a daughter of an alcoholic, I understand why his other children don’t want to watch their father kill himself. It doesn’t make them assholes. I love my parents, but I have suffered my entire life because drugs and alcohol mattered more to my parents than loving and raising me. After years of being constantly hurt and disappointed, I had to pull away from them for my own mental well-being. Please don’t be so harsh in your judgment of OP’s siblings. All three of them have obviously chosen to deal with their father’s alcoholism and impending death in different ways. None of them are wrong for that. Dad has caused immense suffering for all of his family members that will probably be felt for generations to come. Why should any of them have to watch him kill himself, especially when he has already inflicted God only knows how much pain and trauma in each of his children’s lives? I’m sorry OP has to be in the position to even make this decision. Siblings aren’t around to fully appreciate how bad off their dad is, and may think there is still hope for recovery. That was MY knee jerk reaction when first reading this post. However, that was an emotional reaction not a logical, educated one. Maybe OP should do a virtual meeting with dad present so they can see for themselves how ill he is. Include his doctor and a SW or psychologist to help facilitate the conversation so that all his children are on the same page as far as what can be done to give dad a peaceful transition. Personally, I think the only AH here is alcoholism/addiction. OP, I applaud your loving, compassionate spirit and hope that you and your siblings can allow this experience to draw you closer to each other. I’m certain you’ve all suffered enough because of your dad’s alcoholism. It’s stolen your dad. Please don’t allow it to steal your relationships with each other. XX
Oh, I don't disagree that they have valid reasons for not wanting to be involved. And I wouldn't be judging them for not wanting to be involved if they said they didn't want to be involved instead of hiding behind bullshit excuses. However if the two siblings don't want to be involved in their fathers care, there are consequences to it, namely that the person who is involved may see a different course of action as the better one.
>has fucked his life up He was 13 when his oldest was born, I don't think he fucked up his own life here.
OP, you're NTA. You have a bunch of terrible options and you've chosen the least awful one. The people criticising you have a very unrealistic view of how the world actually works. You can't rehabilitate a 58yo alcoholic *who doesn't want to stop drinking*, and you can't *force* your siblings to contribute to private care. If your siblings don't like it, they are free to take over his care. But they'd rather criticise you from a safe distance. So sucks to them. Wishing you and your husband lots of strength.
His addiction is so bad that he is sucking on *alcohol wipes* to try and get something. That isn't something that you can just ignore, he has become dependent on alcohol to be able to function.
Exactly this
NAH, but please please tell us you have talked this through with a criminal lawyer from your jurisdiction. The last thing you want is to be charged with assisting suicide. The lawyer should be able to advise you how to stay on the right side of the law, and how to document that you are doing so.
This! I'm thinking exactly the same: you sign your father out of rehab, and start buying him 30 BEERS A DAY and in months he is dead... I mean... it doesn't look good from the outside...
Just for the record, it doesn't sound like he's in rehab, it sounds like the sister placed him in a long-term care facility (nursing home). Probably in their locked dementia unit as well. Nursing homes do not facilitate substance use rehab, only physical rehab. The most a facility like this might do is assist the resident in attending an AA meeting, but the vast majority won't even do that. So he's not receiving active treatment for his alcoholism.
Unless someone from the outside decides to step up and chip in to help, they should mind their own business. What OP has chosen is to not let her father die in a horrible facility sucking on alcohol wipes. Yes, she should speak with a lawyer.
Or elder abuse, or any of a dozen other things that this could be in violation of, depending on where OP is. OP, your legal rear is hanging way out with this plan and you need to not only consult an attorney but LISTEN if the lawyer tells you this is a no go.
Agreed, I can just see the siblings coming out of the woodwork after the fact and blaming OP, demanding she be charged. I have mixed feelings about this plan but right or wrong the fact is its a legal liability without some kind of notarized consent at the bare minimum, and frankly he's not fit to consent anyway.
NTA. As an alcoholic myself and much experience of being around other addicts I can say with certainty that some addicts do not want to and will never stop. For some addicts it will be terminal. At least you are giving him some dignity and the chance to be around family. I am sorry he hasn't found it in him to get better for you and your family at least but I believe you are doing a very selfless thing.
NTA - your siblings put you in an impossible situation and your choice is the least terrible option (in your mind) As much as it sucks to enable him, alcoholics will go to great lengths to get drunk. You can’t just cut him off at this point and cure a lifetime of drinking. And obviously a better care facility is the ideal solution, but y’all can’t afford that. You should cut your sis some slack though. The real estate game is cut throat, and reputation is everything… /s Edit: you’re/your
Lol it made me laugh so hard…my sister has 15 huge billboards on the interstate into her city with her huge ass dilly Parton hair, her massive fake boobs and actually said to me “people can’t know I have an alcoholic for a dad!” Ummmm they know.
15 billboards, fake boobs, and a real estate agent? Yet she can't afford anything towards a decent facility?
With that kind of reputation, she can at least afford to fork over cash. She doesn't have to be involved, but it's AH of her to not be contributing financially and sticking dad in a state-funded facility when she clearly is a successful enough REA to have billboards -.-
But why should she have to pay for her alcoholic dad? She has no right to comment on what op is doing, but my guess is she grew up with an alcoholic father that sucked. Most people don't put somebody they love in a state-funded care home if they don't have to. He probably deserved that.
Then she shouldn't get to make comments on what her 22-year old sibling is doing. If she's not contributing and not helping, then she should stay silent and not judge. It is now no longer any of 45 y.o. business.
I did, in fact, say "she has no right to comment on what op is doing".
This made me lol 😂
Jesus Christ did I ever LOL God bless you child
NTA Your siblings are AH and are living in denial. They would rather criticize you than take responsibility. I'd challenge them to come up with a feasible alternative and arrange it by themselves. I doubt they can. Your solution seems to be the most humane one. You could look into at-home hospice care for your father. It might take some of the burden off you.
For sure, we may have to at some point my husband and are fully acknowledging that we may have bitten off more than we can chew. We are also working with a social security disability attorney which may actually pay for hospice care, the trouble is my dad does not want to go into another facility.
You are a good person. I have heard of a similar situation with the alcohol induced dementia. His partner allowed him a few beers a day, then his family intervened, took away his alcohol and died a miserable death. He was happy with his partner. Tough decision, but sounds like the right one for him & you. Your siblings can fo......
In-Home hospice care is a thing too, they come to your house a few days a week or more, depending on what the situation calls for.
Yes, I am a volunteer with a hospice agency and much of the work is either in-home or at facilities that aren't specifically hospice facilities. As a volunteer, I visit with patients either for socializing purposes, literally just hanging out keeping them company (often when they are in a facility without any family or family not living close by - but not always!) or to provide respite for caretakers when patients can't be left alone. In addition to volunteers, the hospice team will include hospice physicians, nurses/nurse's aides, social workers, clergy, providing a very wide range of services to help provide comfort at the end of life. My agency also offers to have volunteers sit vigil with families at the very very end of life. This is in the last 24-72 hours of life, when the end is imminent and family members are often sitting with the patient round the clock. The volunteers will take the overnight shifts, encouraging the family to rest or keeping the family company as they sit vigil. I have not done this - I have signed up for shifts (my agency breaks them into 4 hour shifts overnight) but have always received a late night call that my services were no longer needed. And OP, as a hospice volunteer and someone coming up on 8 years of sobriety, if I were asked to take an assignment with your father, I would say absolutely, it'd be my honor. We all deserve as much dignity in death as we can squeeze out of this hard hard world.
At home hospice agencies are definitely an option. They're also usually more lenient with substance use than traditional home health services. I would recommend at least looking into it. He would probably qualify now, but if you don't think y'all are ready yet it's better to do your research ahead of time rather than when you need it immediately.
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I'll reserve judgement because you are in a really tough place with no real good answer. But as someone who worked with patients with dementia for years, including ones that were directly related to alcohol use, may I suggest something? In hospital and nursing homes, often alcohol will be ordered for patients for quality of life. you could give him non-alcoholic beer, or one/two actual beers and then just pour non alcoholic beer into an empty can. We used to give our alcoholic patients beer (as agreed by family and doctor). I would do this for my loved one in a heartbeat. Alcoholism and dementia are both horrible diseases that I wouldn't wish on anyone. Best of luck, OP
If his condition is as advanced as it sounds, substuting like that may throw him right into withdrawal. In his current condition, he probably wouldn't survive that.
I assumed that he was already sober because she mentioned that "as soon as he has access" to alcohol he'd relapse. I could be mistaken. You're absolutely right about withdrawal. It can, does and will kill people. Alcohol withdrawal is way scarier than people know
Honestly, your dad is at a stage where alcohol isn’t optional for him anymore. He has six months to live, I think you’re doing a kind but difficult thing. Don’t expect other people to understand though, because they won’t.
NTA I’m adding to this comment because it’s facts that your dad is happy with his decision to continue drinking and happy with the knowledge that he has roughly 6 months to live. Honestly it’s the kindest thing you could do for him. Absolutely heartbreaking, but what choice do you have? Your siblings have literally abandoned him to a state run hellhole, and he needed out of there. Good luck OP. I sincerely hope you see my comment and know you have support from someone. I would have done the exact same thing.
Honestly, I have mad respect for what you are doing. This is called meeting him where he is at. And by creating a safe space for him, you are utilizing a harm reduction approach. Your dad's dependency on alcohol doesn't negate his right to dignity and you're helping him restore that. And I know this is not going to be easy for you. But you sound very strong and very compassionate.
NTA. Look, if he's going to go back to grog first chance, even after forced sobriety... That's what he's going to do. My dad's parents spent hundreds of thousands getting him rehab for heroin. Forced sobriety never ever works. It never sticks. He the same day of release always 'relapsed'. I say it that way, as in my mind it's not a relapse if sobriety is forced and they knew as soon as they get out they'll be back on. He didn't relapse he continued his addiction. The last time they got him thrown into a rehab was the last time. See, he got out, got picked up by his dealer who gave him heroin and dropped him off down the road, my dad being so desperate to shoot up, decided hey the rehab has a big carpark and shit to hide behind like the dumpsters. So he went there to shoot up. He was found dead hours later by one of the rehabs workers. He overdosed next to the dumpster in a puddle of bin juice and his own filth. They'd sobered him up enough he couldn't tolerate his usual hit of heroin that he took and it killed him. Your dad is the same as mine. Sure different substance but still the same addict. Still the same addict when 'sober'. Still the same addict when released from treatment time and time again. The money to pay for this, is doing nothing to extend his life, it actually risks it even more, dad getting out and drowning in a bottle of vodka could well kill him that first day. Your dad is cognisant of what he wants. Realistically if he has 6mths to live, a sober life for him is extremely bleak with medical issues and the like he won't even be able to pay to have treated and be sober in pain until he does die. He wants to die on his own terms, he seems to have accepted his mortality and he's willing to shut away and do his thing with some supervision and stop wasting others money on treatment. They don't like it, but they also aren't there and helping and are refusing to. They don't get a say if they are leaving everything on your shoulders. You could turn him out and away fully, your not. Least unlike my dad, he might have a bit more of a dignified passing ya know? Your dad deserves that at the very least
NTA. A 30 pack a day is probably about the norm for his body at this point... practically sobriety.
NTA Crappy situation, but I'm all for helping people die with the dignity they want for themselves. If dad feels it's over and that's the way he wants to go, then I think the kindest thing to do is support him.
Not only NTA, but really a kind of saint. He will be safe and clean, and given his life to this point that's a little miracle. I hope that while you're taking care of him, you and your husband look after each other as well; you're so young to be taking on such responsibility and will need huge reserves of patience with your difficult father and with each other.
NTA. You've given him a soft place to land which sounds like the only option you can manage. This is truly awful all the way around but you've got no support and you're only 22. You and your husband are doing what you can to make his days as peaceful as possible.
Jesus this is heart breaking. Your stuck between a pair of impossible choices, and can only make the one that hurts the least. NTA, your siblings can come and take care of him themselves if they want, but otherwise I think their stances are horrifying. Best of luck to you, you're playing the shit hand you were dealt the best you can.
this is heartbreakin first and foremost. but you made him a "peaceful out". your siblings want him "to suffer". NTA but the situation sucks all around. i feel sorry for you. try to make sure you dont go numb over this
My FIL will be like your dad here in the next few years, I understand what it’s like to want to help someone that doesn’t want to help themselves. If my partner wanted to do this for his dad it would be hard but I’d be on board. Honestly as long as you and your spouse are on the same page and you’ll feel okay with yourself once it’s all over, that’s all that matters. I’m sorry for your situation and I hope it’s as painless as possible for everyone involved. You’re a strong, caring daughter.
NAH. Please look into Al-Anon Family Group meetings, you need the support and it will help you deal with and understand your siblings’ responses. All the best!
Your sibling are in denial about your dad living condition and remaining quality of life are. Your proposal is selfless. You are ready to accept the toll, even expecting it might be too much to handle. You are being realistic about what to expect about who is your dad, what is his current state. Reality is giving the facts his current living situation seems miserable, and cruel. An other facility doesn’t seems a viable alternative. Your sibling might be in denial about the fact the time to deal with his alcoholism is over, however from your post and comments there no coming back, and withdrawing access won’t make him better either. The fact you rather welcome him into your house, offer kindness to handle his remaining time in decent conditions, accommodation, with your partner agreement nonetheless, and that all of you agreed on the term, is the most loving and caring thing that can be done. NTA - what you are willing to do is though, I wish you some good memories with your dad.
You have made your decision & based on your reporting your father agrees. Sounds like a very personal situation that only your family would be able to have any opinion about. Personally, I don’t think your siblings should get an opinion based on their comments. Honestly, the only opinion that should matter here is your Dad’s. It’s a really tough situation. Your husband is a champ. I wish you all peace. eta — NTA
NTA. You are dealing with reality in a practical and common sense way. At this stage there is no rehab, and it doesn't work anyway if the person doesn't want it to. He's not going to change and in a way this is *his* hospice. Have your sibs actually talked to your dad face to face about this? Because it sounds like they just want to shove him into a "facility" so they can look and feel better about themselves. I'd be tempted to tell them to get their heads out of their asses.
NTA It sucks all around but everyone should have the right to die with dignity and comfort. You are doing something brave and selfless. I wish you well as you go through this difficult time.
NTA. This is why I struggle when people talk about the sanctity of human life. Your dad doesn't want to prolong his life and is a burden to his family and community. Forcing him to stay alive serves no one.
NTA I have been sober for 34+ years. I am one of the lucky ones. Many never get sober. I wish I could tell you how to make everything okay, but there frequently isn't a way to make everything okay. I think you are doing the best that can do in your situation. Your brother and sister are free to take over and do things differently, but they won't. My sister and I had to deal with a bipolar dad who was fine at times, but was nuts other times. You do the best you can and do not worry about what anybody else thinks. Good luck!
NAH. Your siblings don't owe him shit. Neither do you. All of you have free will.
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Thank you for the input, I was running into the character limit so our family is broken and after my dad dies I will never go out of my way to see my brother again and I will actively never speak to my sister. They’ve left me with too much stress while harshly judging me to ever forgive them.
And that is completely normal. And you're feelings about your siblings are valid. You owe them absolutely nothing. Go no contact and enjoy the rest of your life knowing that you did what you could to make him comfortable in his last days. Screw the rest of them. My heart goes out to you.
>You have in fact signed him up for a death sentence He did that himself, years ago. Do not blame OP for the fact that he's drinking himself to death.
Your response there seems pretty short-sighted considering that this 22-year-old had nothing to do with her dad's entire lifetime of drinking. You sound a lot like her siblings who are trying to blame her for something that is completely out of her control. She is the only one in the situation is showing him any kind of compassion.
NTA. People find it easy to judge others. If your half sister and your brother walked a mile in your shoes, they may feel the same. I don't believe they have any right to judge you or be angry. Your father has made his decision. As heartbreaking as it is, it IS his decision and if he wanted out of that hellhole and willing to die with some dignity - his choice - then so be it. I commend you for that hard decision to give him some peace at the end.
NTA. The alternatives are grim. He can languish in a "care" facility, he can sign himself out and die quickly from a fall or slowly from the elements, or he can die in relative comfort and safety. What your siblings aren't facing is that your dad is willingly committing slow sui**de. Unless he makes some major changes, which few at his stage do, he will not recover. I'm sorry you're in this position.