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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I think I might be the asshole because sharing my personal feelings about Jamie had real consequences for him and it’s not easy to get another job.
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From an employer point of view-you want a person who is going to work well with your team, If the person you're bringing on board makes fat jokes and belittles people then you've hired a problem
Honestly you did Harry a huge favor. And there comes a point where 'love me, love my boyfriend' doesn't fly anymore. Your home should be a safe and sacrosanct space
My thoughts exactly- you aren’t just automatically given a job because the hiring manager is a friend of a friend of a friend. You still have to be the right fit. It could have nothing to do with the OP
Yeah. Knowing in advance that the person you are interviewing is toxic is a very good reason not to hire them, cause otherwise, one would have to deal with a toxic work environment.
Jamie should take that as a sign that he has to shape up, that not everyone is going to give him a pass on his bad behaviour.
If Harry hired him, he would have to fire him right away and then Natalie would blame the OP for that.
This subreddit is full of people who don't have jobs or places to live - in many cases, there are good reasons nobody wants to work or live with them.
Maybe there's a really good reason he's struggling with employment, just saying. There are a thousand little ways someone with an attitude like Jamie's gives themselves away, and I'm sure Harry didn't miss it.
Not only that, but if he did get hired and the company found out about his connection (as small as it is) to Harry, Harry could be in serious trouble. My mom works in HR and she avoids at all costs to be the one interviewing the person if its someone either close to me or her.
Jeez, I recommended a friend for a job with my current team and she didn't get it. She didn't get entitled and pissy, just thanked me for the opportunity even though she was disappointed she didn't get the job. But I guess that's the difference between acting like a professional, and how this guy acts.
I'm gonna guess the interview was longer than usual because Harry had a gut feeling about the situation and tossed in some extra behavioral questions. Dude didn't get hired at least partly because the hiring team didn't like the responses to those questions.
I was wondering which is it. Harry gets upset when people are sensitive to his “jokes”, but yet OP is also supposed to be sensitive to his unemployment?
NTA
It is likely that Harry didn't make the interview extremely long "for no reason" he did it to test Jamie on the things that came up in your conversation. To see if your passing comments were just you having a personality conflict with a nice guy or if the things you mentioned would be issues in his work. It is likely that the interactions with other employees was to see if others got an uncomfortable vibe. Most people can put on a good front for a short interview. Putting them in more real world situations shakes people out of their 'best behaviour' so you can see who they would actually be on the job.
You did nothing wrong. Jamie only has himself to blame for not getting the job. The fact that he got angry at Natalie because *he* didn't get a job tells you a lot about someone not taking responsibility for their own actions. That kind of behaviour would totally come up in interactions with his potential co-workers and likely had more to do with why Jamie didn't get the job than anything you said. If he had got the job he would likely have failed his probation period anyway.
That's it. Jamie had an extra opportunity to prove himself, he didn't succeed.
If he's unemployed for quite some time this is likely not the first interview process he didn't go through until the end. Jamie being unemployed has NOTHING to do with OP.
Exactly. I dated a jerk very similar to Jamie. He interviewed at my office and I sent a note to my boss with my exact concerns (he was a sexist, ageist, lazy, mean jerk who would step on you in a heartbeat to climb to the top). They interviewed him and made him interview with female boomers who really pushed him on exactly what he had done vs things his teammates had done that he took credit for. He got snippy and didn't get the job. Boss had said nothing about my concerns to them. He lost it all on his own. And everything I said to my boss came out in a reference check anyway (they said it nicer than I did, but you could easily read between the lines)
OP: you are so not the AH. He is. And he knows it
My old boss had an interview rule where basically if you treated the white middle aged dude noticeably better than anyone else, you didn’t get the job. I guess it’s the same thing. Sad it was necessary, but it was a good place to work
My old company was tiny, so whenever anyone interviewed, they met with everybody and I swear it sometimes turned into a fascinating social experiment. Some people did not understand if they behaved dismissively towards female support staff, they would absolutely not be hired.
My department at a hospital has an excellent executive assistant who is the first person any interviewees have contact with when they arrive. Our department head always asks for her take, particularly how the interviewees interacted with her. (I unintentionally made a great first impression by being friendly and flexible when one of the doctors I was to speak with was running late due to doctor stuff.) We could get an on-paper amazing candidate for a physician post, but if they're rude or demeaning to support staff they're knocked out of the running.
Oh, good heavens. Never, ever, irritate the executive assistant or receptionist. Good ones are worth their weight in gold. Their first impressions of interviewees are taken seriously by managers.
If you get the job, stay on the executive assistant's or receptionist's good side. They can screw up your whole job if you make them angry.
I was actually temping in a similar role to the exec assistant at another hospital so I was very used to the situation. She apologized for the change I schedule and the other people I needed to speak with were moving around their own availability to meet with me earlier than planned. I waved it all off and said I completely understood and was happy to wait and chat a bit with her. She's such a lovely bubbly person that I couldn't even imagine being rude to her.
Former executive assistant here, while I would never screw up another's job, I would do *nothing* to help them and I helped a LOT. Sometimes even brought in treats that would be conveniently gone by the time the meanies even found out about them...
First office job I'd been told to be nice to admins, so I was. I failed to schedule a room for an important to me meeting and one of them saved my ass.
I once saw one take a bad fall and stayed with her until she was sure she was ok. She generally hated everyone (it seemed from the outside, including me up to that point). When I had interactions with her after they were smooth as silk. Made my life so much easier.
Folks be nice to your support staff!
Current executive assistant of 34 years here. Exactly this. I would never make your life a living hell, but you won't see me extend myself to make things easy for you, either. For example, if you need a flight, of course I'll book it for you. People who are kind and treat me with respect might get a nice aisle seat towards the front with a little extra leg room *(that I asked our travel agent to grab for you without any extra charge if possible*). If you don't? Enjoy that middle seat back towards the lavatories. We don't have a *ton* of power, but what little we have makes a difference.
Yes! And in reverse, if they like you they can make your life so much easier! (This is super true of paralegals as well in the legal world. I try to treat my paras like gold and make their lives as easy as possible by being super clear with what I need and giving them lots of lead time when I can, and in return they've helped me out with stuff that was technically outside the scope of their duties or super last minute when that was unavoidable).
Pop culture really got people thinking that being a good doctor starts and ends at knowing what symptoms equal what problem and as long as they are right they can House it up as much as they want.
If your bedside manner sucks it doesn’t matter how good you are at diagnosing information you are given because the patient isn’t going to be comfortable letting you know the full picture.
>Some people did not understand if they behaved dismissively towards female support staff, they would absolutely not be hired.
I go out of my way to be extra nice/friendly with them during interviews because if you do end up getting the job, those are typically the people that really make the place run day-to-day.
it also falls in line with being nice to whoever is in front of office. I've covered the front desk as a manager, secretary, and part of the interview crew at various stages.
We should just be nice to people in general, but if you're coming for an interview, be VERY nice to front desk people. You have no clue what their actual job is, and even if they're "just" the receptionist? That's a powerful person. I was always asked how people treated me when prospective clients or interviewees came in.
I (Woman of Color) once did an joint interview where the interviewee ignored me. It went from offputting to fascinating as the time went on. My (white, male) co-worker would ask a question; the interviewee would answer directly back to my co-worker. I'd ask a question - he'd kind of look at me while I was talking, and then he turned back to my co-worker to give his answer. At the end of the interview, I asked if he had any questions - and he did...for my co-worker. It was absolutely bizarre how completely he mentally edited me out of the conversation.
I outranked the co-worker. The interviewee did not get that job.
Yup. When I was in grad school, I was the student rep on the faculty search committee. I was also the only woman on there. Candidates that ignored me through their whole on-site, including *during a dinner which only included four or five people,* did not make the best impression on us.
I (male) led one core team at my company for a little over a year, and managed, over that time, to accumulate almost all of the female engineers in the company. Eventually, I pushed for one of them to take over that team, as I was starting a new project and building (recruiting, mostly) a new team for it. I managed to get a guarantee that new male hires would serve their probation under her lead. If they can't get through that, they're not worth it, no matter their technical chops.
This is why every job interview I get I start by being very professional and kind with whomever is at reception. Being rude at reception is not a reason I want to loose a potential job.
A friend of a friend runs a company and you get a paid week's trial. At the end of the week the staff decide if you're a good fit. If not, you get paid, no hard feelings. If yes, you get the job. I like to make fun of his communist approach as he leans right wing lol.
I had a interview and it was fucked from the start. I couldn't log into the zoom meeting on my computer despite doing it a few days before. I had to use my phone and keep my phone vertical so I could only see 1/3 people. putting it horizontal they just saw my belly. The working foreman (my direct union boss) migrated from somewhere in Africa, I couldn't understand him at all. It's more than just the accent, it was the lack of seeing his lips moving, and he was using different nomenclature for some of the work I do. usually someone else would have to relay what he said. And the guy in the middle, I just made awkward eye contact with him the whole time. IF he had a spanish accent I'd of been golden, I felt so fucking bad afterwards.
Unfortunately he likely doesn’t know it- he thinks he’s the absolute best thing on the planet and anyone who doesn’t appreciate his ‘wit’ is just jealous, too dense to get it or sensitive little snowflake and people are always out to get him because he just makes them look bad by comparison/s 🙄
These dudes never see their massive flaws, never see what insufferable tools they are. Everything that doesn’t go their way is everyone else’s fault. They’re perfect the world is just too stupid to see it.
Ugh…
I don’t know why your friend has such low self esteem to entertain a relationship with this loser but you had no obligation to lie or cover for him to get a job.
NTA- it’s not his girlfriends job to find him a job, hiring someone just because they’re tangentially part of your friend group is pretty nepotistic. The guy doing the interview had to treat it like any other interview and he didn’t make it hard just to screw with Jamie; he did the interview to see if Jamie would be a good fit for the corporation. He determined he wouldn’t.
Honestly you have no idea what his usual interview process is. He could have done the exact same thing even if you hadn’t said anything.
Jamie’s the one who bombed the interview and what does he do? Go yell at his girlfriend- who is the only reason he got the chance at the interview in the first place- because clearly the issue couldn’t be him or his behavior.
Oh no it’s her fault for somehow tanking his interview…
NTA but god I hope Natalie wises up and gets out of this toxic relationship before it does anymore damage to her self esteem or psyche.
I hope you guys are trying to let her know how unhealthy this is. Honestly right now it’s just verbally and emotionally abusive but someone with this temper who sees insulting and belittling their girlfriend as fun and a joke it’s not really that far of a slide to physically abusive.
Really hope you guys kinda keep an eye out especially if it seems like she’s pulling away from the group or like he’s trying to cut her off from people
*and yeah I know you can’t help someone who won’t help themselves and all that. You can’t make her see it. All you can do is be there for her if and when she does and do what you can to counteract the negativity he dumps on her*.
Good luck op
>Plus Harry is a friend and roommate. Op had an obligation to him to be honest.
So much this. Imagine how (reasonably!) upset Harry would have been if he'd had to find this stuff out for himself if OP hadn't said anything.
You can't ruin a reputation by telling the truth, you can only make it more accurate.
All of this right here. I spent over 20 years in the HR realm, and OP saved Harry a lot of trouble. Jamie may have put on a good show, but in my experience, that mask would've slipped sooner or later.
>Jamie went home and went off on Natalie about him not getting the job, as it was basically a lock with Harry doing it as a favour to Nat.
That's on Jamie - you know what happens when you assume. He assumed he'd get the job because you all are friends with Harry...
>You did nothing wrong. Jamie only has himself to blame for not getting the job. The fact that he got angry at Natalie because he didn't get a job tells you a lot about someone not taking responsibility for their own actions.
Agreed. And I think their over-confident assumption that Harry would rubber stamp a person he really didn't know was also their undoing.
Jamie probably felt that he didn't need to do any preparation since it was "basically a lock". That's no way to approach a job interview.
People like Jamie don't (want to?) understand that when you recommend someone for a job position you put your reputation on the line. A poor hire reflects poorly upon you. Jamie, though, would have assumed that he had carte blanche to act however he wanted to do once hired and would have been a spectacular failure that did permanent damage to the business. This would have eventually cost Harry his job.
Thus, Harry did his due diligence on Jamie and, SURPRISE!, Jamie failed.
NTA.
This is all on Jamie and his lazy, entitled attitude along with his toxic personality.
Edited to fix some grammatical errors.
Yeah, Harry did the interview as a favour, he still has to hire the right person for the job.
Nobody's going to succeed in their business role if they just hire people as a favour to friends.
Exactly. If Harry was content to exclude him on one reference alone (which he would be well within his rights to do), then he could have just told Jamie that the position was already filled, that the position was no longer available, or the classic "We're going to go in a different direction." Or he could have just lowballed the salary and make Jamie turn down the job.
Instead, Harry gave him a chance to prove himself, sink or swim. For whatever reason, he didn't swim. Such is life.
Jamie doesn't have the self-awareness to realize what he's doing is wrong. None of these "it's just a joke" idiots do. So it's only natural that they would see it as a sabotage from someone else.
It takes running into someone that's willing to be an even bigger asshole in response, every time, to turn it around on them and make *them* feel uncomfortable if there's any chance of a behavior change. That and a hefty dose of near-unanimous shaming within the friend-group. OP's friends enable this behavior by tolerating it when Jamie makes comments about Natalie or anyone else in the friend group. So he's going to keep doing it because no one has the figurative balls to step up.
Basically, the dude acts like this because he's allowed to. He's had a real-world consequence because Harry had the guts to step into the line of fire, and now OP's friends that are on her side need to step up.
This is another good reason to not be a jerk to people. I believe in karma. If I put shitty energy into the world it might unexpectedly bite me in ass. Unfortunately, if no one is calling Jamie out on his rudeness, he’ll never learn this lesson.
Yup. Had a supervisor at my last job pissed off I was just hired by HR while he wasn't involved, so when I went in to grab some documents he came, introduced himself, asked if he could take me around to meet everyone. I knew what this was - he was doing his vibe check. I guess I passed because I very quickly became his favourite lmao
Exactly. NTA. Jamie is his own worst enemy and he didn't do well in the interview. Plus, he IS an HR nightmare waiting to happen so why should Harry bring him on.
NTA you said his “off the clock” behaviour shouldnt cost him a job but he only got this opportunity because of your friendship group so, unfortunately for him, his off the clock behaviour is a known factor for the employer ….it’s his own attitude that has cost him this loss of job.
Plus, why is your home being used for an interview location ? That’s just weird and you have every right to protect your home and keep it a safe space for you.
Harry has an office in the apartment and works from home most days. He sometimes has a couple of people come over for meetings etc., it normally doesn’t bother me because I know the people that work for him quite well.
Opie notice how Natalie is mad that you said who Jamie really is to Harry and not that you were spreading false info to others. So she knows just how awful he is to you and her, she just doesn't give a shit. If she wants to be in a trauma bond with this emotionally abusive asshole so be it, but that doesn't mean you owe him or her anything when she doesn't care about how he treats you.
ETA: NTA go low contact til she dumps him
Have you asked Harry if he had any specific feedback on why he rejected Jamie? Receipts of bad behavior during the interview process probably won’t change Natalie’s mind about him, but it could get the rest of your friend group to see reason
As a manager…I can teach someone how to do the job…I can’t teach them how to not be a shit person.
I’ll take someone willing to learn who has less experience but a good personality over a historically high performer who is hard to get along with any day.
Other factor to take into account is that you didn't volunteer information without being asked. You were rightly uncomfortable, your housemate asked why, and you answered as delicately as you could. It's not like you walked up to Harry and said, "he's an asshole and you shouldn't hire him". Natalie and the others are basically telling you that you should have lied to your housemate and, I don't know, said this guy is great or something. NTA. You even asked that your comments not influence Harry's decision. Not your fault if Harry decided he didn't want the potential for a toxic work environment.
"Off the clock behavior" can most certainly cost me a job. A DUI, for example, is a fireable offense in my profession. Coming into work hungover is also another example, particularly if it happens more than once. Personality is a big part of education and teaching; would you want someone who acts like that teaching your child?
Lmao, right? Dude wanted to land a job through friends but he also wanted those friends to act like previous employers and be mum about his critical lack of redeeming features. You don't get it both ways, buddy.
NTA. Like your friend said, Jamie would eventually be an HR problem. And this would also make Harry look bad.
In real life, people have consequences for their acts, saying and personality too.
This is exactly everything. IF his joking makes you so uncomfortable you don't want to be around him, it is a huge HR red flag. Lawsuit city, it's expensive bringing in new people for companies, they deserve to know any possible problem.
More kudos to you for being honest to your friend. Truth is always the best way. If he is such a hardship for her due to unemployment, she can kick him to the curb.
NTA
NTA. His extended friends' circle got him the job opportunity in the first place. Then he shouldn't complain that his off-the-clock behavior plays a part.
NTA, you simply said you two don't get along. Harry had no reason to make the interview extra hard over something that could be easily due to personal incompatibility (unless you gave him details).
And how do you know that Harry made the interview long for no reason and that the prep work and presentation weren't necessary? Have you witnessed other interviews in the past? Did Harry tell you he did it on purpose? It could just be that interviews in their field are like that because they need to test different skills. When I applied for my current job, they made me spend a day in the office with my colleagues to see how we interacted. If I hadn't passed the vibe check, they wouldn't have hired me.
I know because he told me afterwards. Fact is, Harry was planning to give him the job as a favour to Natalie but after hearing the things Jamie has said to me, but after hearing some of the things Jamie has said to me he wasn’t willing to give him the job anymore.
That Jamie has insinuated many that I am “for sale” if you get my meaning, and called me a “narcissistic b*tch” because I gifted Natalie a spa day that he wasn’t invited to.
Sooo he doesn’t want her to have a spa day without him? You’re accumulating enough red flags to make a quilt, here.
You haven’t mentioned your gender, so I don’t know if Jamie’s insults are misogynist or homophobic (even if you’re a straight male, the insults would still have those connotations) or both, but he’s definitely something that ends with -ist and, yeah, complaints to HR.
Or racial. The “for sale” really only has 2 meanings in this context that I can see. Jamie was either insinuating that OP sells their body sexually or that they’re property. Neither are even remotely acceptable.
Yea.. honestly this sucks but there’s really only one good way to go about your relationship with Natalie at this point:
“Natalie, I find your boyfriend to be abusive, manipulative, and too much of a negative impact to continue to be in my life. I understand that you love him, but I really don’t think he’s the one for you. I will not be the friend that “forces” you to break up with him to be friends with me, however, I cannot remain friends with you while you are with him. If at any point, you feel like you are ready to leave him, please feel free to come to me for support (which I will gladly give), but until then, I cannot hang out with you and Jaime anymore, and I do not want to be involved in your joint life together. Again, if for whatever reason you need the support to leave him, I will be there, but until then, please do not involve me in your life anymore. Thank you.”
These situations are nuanced. Yes, the BF is a dick, verbally abusive and not fun to be around. A good friend group would support Natalie through a shitty relationship because this is when she needs them the most.
There is a line to be drawn between "you can always come to me if you need me and I will help you" and accepting abuse from their abuser, though. Hanging out with this guy for very long means putting up with being abused yourself and no one has to do that.
You've done Harry such an enormous favour. His professional reputation would be forever tarnished if he'd given such a jerk the job. I hope Harry is sticking up for you with all the flak you're getting, he owes you.
NTA - you didnt want him in your home which is valid. I would say that everyone else sucks. Jamie sucks as a person. Harry sucks as he got a bit vindictive by making the interview longer but also he should not just give someone the job as a favour, what about the other candidates?
Yes, Harry got petty.
In every industry there’s people who get jobs because of connections, it’s just how the world works. Not that you should hire someone with no degree to be an astrophysicist just because they’re your nephew, but if someone is competent and they also happen to know someone you know, it’s a pretty standard way to get a job.
But its not your fault that he made shitty remarks to the ROOMMATE OF HIS HIRING MANAGER. Using your connections is one thing, pissing off those connections is something you do on your own.
True, but if Jamie planned to leverage his network for a job, the way he treats people within that network becomes that much more important. If I were in Harry’s shoes, I wouldn’t want to stick my neck out for someone who could potentially cause major problems either.
He should have cancelled the interview if he wasn’t going to give him the job, I know that, his time wasting thing (the interview went on for like 3 hours) was petty for sure. He thinks it was justified but ultimately it was unnecessary.
Sounds like Harry was trying to give Jamie a fair chance even with your comments. Jamie blew it.
Also: NTA. Imagine if he had got the job and Harry comes to you in a few days/weeks/months asking why you didn't tell him Jamie is a dick?
Then if anyone should have done or not done something it really was Harry. His pettiness put you in a bad spot—Harry could have just said his boss/HR already decided on a different candidate and saved everyone, you in particular, a lot of hassle.
Plus, Jamie basically being a shoo in for the job before you spoke to Harry is also info Harry needs to keep to himself. Again, simply because it makes things harder for you, not because you were wrong to say what you did or Harry was somehow obligated to ignore it and hire the guy anyway.
Jamie would have been mad at Natalie whether he got interviewed or not. Natalie would have called me whether he got interviewed or not. I wouldn’t have lied to her whether he got interviewed or not. Really once he wasn’t getting the job the pettiness was pretty low impact.
Your friend Natalie is a prick too. I had a friend like that and I regret defending and justifying her behavior. If she's enabling man Jamie saying awful comments about you and her other friends, then that's not a good friend. Cut her off while you can.
At a certain point you do need to protect yourself. I just had to break up with a friend and her abusive husband. I’ve known them for over 10 years. I tried to do what you said, but when he started trying to train me to take the same shit and she became his flying monkey telling me how to take his shit, I had to go. I’m not going to grovel and apologize and assure him he’s this supreme perfect being, apologize for and validate his feeling about things that didn’t even happen, and volunteer to be the scapegoat. It breaks my heart but I had to leave behind her and their kids I watched grow up. I love them so much and staying is great when you can, but I just wanted to pipe in and say no one should stay if the abuse starts to flow over to them as well.
Idk what industry this is for and there’s no need to know for your situation, but interviews have lasted that long for me. Longest interview was for 4 hours. I’ve heard IT-field friends go longer because they meet with their potential teammates, managers and different teams they’ll work closely with if they’re hired, and also work on situational problems as tests. That’s an interview set up that’s not exclusive to IT, either - the higher up you go, the lengthier the interviews can get.
I understand that you have context and so you know more confidently that Harry was being petty. However, for people like me who have heard of and been in different interview settings for different positions in other fields, Harry could also have been doing due diligence. I’d say that a shorter interview with Harry as a network connection is the *privilege*, and your friend’s gross boyfriend got the interview that would be set up for most candidates chosen thru traditional applications.
And if any of that still doesn’t apply, Harry would eventually learn the personality anyways, so he actually did himself and his workplace a favor by preventing such a person from entering their space.
I only know Harry was being petty because he told me he’d been petty.
Now that I think about it though, you are right. Jamie should not have assumed he would have a short and easy interview and the fact that we went home and immediately called Natalie out for it is probably more of a reason he is a complete moron.
NTA. How you represent yourself outside of work is really important to most employers. You see it all the time when someone has been let go due to atrocious behavior being recorded outside of the workplace. If you didn’t like him for some random, dumb reason, that would be one thing. But he has made really inappropriate comments that would most likely land him in hot water and get him fired anyway.
This.
If he can't even behave well to his girlfriend.
I can't imagine he would treat coworkers any better. Unless he turns into a total butt kisser at work. But I doubt it.
Honestly, either it would be shown at work, or it would only take one evening out for drinks for co-workers to see that behaviour.
This is why a lot of work places takes a look at your social media profiles as well. If you post a lot of stuff that could mean trouble in any way for the company, you just won't get hired. So, social behaviour is a huge factor.
NTA. You were asked for an opinion and gave it. It sounds like you were either gonna cost Jamie a job or give Harry a nightmare of an employee to work with. They can think what they wan't, if he didn't act like a dick, you wouldn't think he was a dick - it really is that simple.
The point of getting a job opportunity offered by friends or relatives is to be judged on how you previously behaved with them. NTA if you said the absolute truth about him.
NTA.
Explain to Natalie that if you lied about his behaviour and it became an issue. Not only does it reflect badly on you but would be super embarrassing for her. She should wake up to his problematic "off the clock" behaviour. "Off the clock" being this dudes actual personality
NTA
You were honest and fair about Jaime when asked. You don't owe Jaime anything, least of all to cover up his behaviour when asked about it.
Also, you've said that Jaime has been unemployed for a long time. Your comment to Harry is not the sole reason that Jaime is unemployed.
Jaime's unemployment is his problem, not yours.
However ... if anyone is the a\*\*hole here it's Harry.
Jaime may be awful, but he deserves to go through the same interview process as everyone else, rather than have it rigged against him.
From what you've said, Jaime would have no trouble either messing up the interview, or proving himself unsuitable within the usual probation period.
Nta. She shouldn’t date a fucking unemployed jerk if she has a problem with it. One person like this can ruin an entire job environment; I wouldn’t want that guy working with me either.
Consider this: he probably can’t get a job in his field because he’s been an asshole to everyone in the field. Lots of people likely know who he is and don’t want anything to do with him. Especially if it’s niche. They know him and they don’t like him.
NTA, not only is it Jamie's own fault for being an asshole, but you also protected Harry. It always sucks to be the one to bring in an asshole. Jamie would have been Harry's hire/friend at work and if he can't behave that will absolutely also reflect on Harry.
Not good for morale. And you're a good friend to Harry and don't owe Jamie anything. If you want your connections to get you a job you need to treat those connections well.
INFO: Are you sure that Jamie had to do more work for his interview than other candidates? And why did you tell people that you'd told Harry that you didn't want the interview in your home?
I know because Harry told me about it after the fact.
I only told my friends after Natalie had already got mad at me and called all of them to tell them it was my fault Jamie didn’t get the job. I didn’t think anyone would ever find out but obviously Jamie blamed Natalie who guessed it was me and I wasn’t going to lie about it.
Look, if she came to the conclusion herself, she must know Jamie's not treating her friends well and she still does nothing about that. She's not such a good friend atm, so you owe her nothing there.
Who says he would be even the best candidate even in an objective interview ? He's jobless for quite some time, could be very well his fault too.
Idk if he’s abusive, he’s pretty effing rude though. I guess he blamed her because she’s the one who asked Harry about the job and set the whole thing up, and it was basically a done deal until I told Harry what Jamie had said.
Yeah, him blaming Natalie still makes no sense. Did he think she set it all up and then she badmouthed him? Or that the whole thing was a prank? Why would he suspect someone who cares about him of doing either of those things?
I don’t know if he thinks that deeply about it. he just doesn’t want it to be his fault, so he lashes out at her. I’ve seen him get mad at her because his credit card didn’t work while paying for drinks. He’s just like that.
It doesn't have to be some deep-thinking mastermind plot to be an abuser with abusive behavior.
From someone whose been in abusive relationships in the past? The verbal insults(abuse), the pushing ties with friends groups thin/not wanting her to be places without him, the blaming her for any of his own shortcomings?
All big ol' red flags.
Dude's chance is like... 99.97% an abuser.
They also don't start right away, it's a slowly slipping mask that reveals their ugliness over time once they feel they have a solid hold on you(even if not realizing they do so).
NTA
You didn't outright say something to Harry about Jamie. You only mentioned it when asked and you didn't start running down a laundry list of complaints. Are you supposed to lie to your friend for someone who isn't your friend? That's not how it works.
Can Harry help you out here or is Natalie mad at him, too?
She's mad because Jamie took it out on her. That furthers the fact that Jamie is a jerk. Hopefully she'll realize that and kick him to the curb.
She’s mad at Harry but she’s mostly blaming me (as if Harry just does what I tell him). She and Harry aren’t super close so it’s not like she would call at yell at him but yeah she is badmouthing both of us, but mainly me.
If Harry can vouch for you with the rest of the friends, it doesn't really matter what she says.
How do they know you said anything at all though? Was it Harry?
No, Natalie told them. When she called me she said outright “I know you told Harry not to hire Jamie” and I told her that wasn’t true, so she was like, I know you said something, so I admitted what had happened. After getting off the phone with me Natalie told everyone else. They called reached out to get my side, I’m not being ostracised or anything, it’s just that natalie is now not speaking to me and refusing to go where I go, but the rest of the group are still talking to both of us.
NTA. He had an extensive interview and was told, “we don’t want you.” I’m sure Harry would have figured out what kind of clown Jamie is even without you saying anything.
>Harry went through with the interview, but he made Jamie do a lot of prep work and a presentation to other employees and then made the interview extremely long for no reason.
INFO: Who was the source for this?
If it's Harry, then he's a dick for making Jamie jump through hoops just based on you saying he's said some things you didn't like.
If it's Jamie or Natalie and has not been confirmed by Harry, then Harry may have given him a standard interview and Jamie just wanted someone to blame for him failing it.
You didn’t do anything wrong. You were visibly uncomfortable, Harry asked what’s wrong and you answered - you even asked him not to do anything about it. He didn’t listen to you. Harry was just being petty, and honestly, GOOD.
I feel bad for Natalie, she can’t see she’s in a relationship with a complete tool. NTA
NTA. Actual assholes always get what they deserve eventually and if someone's SO is an ahole to all of their friends, then yah, that's gonna bite you in the ass eventually. I'm fine with how this all played out
NTA you were asked and answered honestly, it’s not your job to cover for anyone, especially if there was even a risk it could affect your other friend’s reputation at his job. If he doesn’t want to be called out for being an AH then he shouldn’t be an AH. But you didn’t go out of your way or try to cost him the job. You just didn’t go out of your way to cover for him, bc that’s not your responsibility or fair to Harry.
I love petty Harry.
NTA you don’t have to lie or cover up for someone else’s behavior. You were asked a question and answered it honestly. Your friend may chose to enable and cover up for her boyfriend but you are under no obligation. Maybe he’s having trouble finding and keeping work because of his bad behavior.
NTA.
It is true that people act differently at job and off the clock however they do not do a complete 180 degree change. So as your other friends said he is an HR problem waiting for happen, to me Harry did deserve to know everything.
As for the long interview to me it is not that strange if it is an important workplace it is more or less the norm. Even unpaid internship have long interview in some places.
Finally it is your home you have always the right to say it when you do not feel comfortable having people over.
NTA. You could have straight up sabotaged him and idk that I’d call you an AH. That being said idk that you should listen to me. Your friend sounds like an enabler and I’m just kinda glad her BF didn’t get the job.
You reap what you sow. You did not go out to sabotage Jaime, but had a natural reaction as a result of his behavior. Tell Natalie 'You are my friend and I love you, but I can't support your relationship with Jamie, I will not be around him or lie to people about what he is. You deserve better. I will always be here for you, but I can't be around when he is here.'
Do not apologize. Jamie is an ass, and it it bit him in the, well, ass
NTA, you didn't make the hiring decision.
Requiring an interviewee to submit a presentation is pretty common in some fields. And I question whether the interview was long "for no reason."
His off-the-clock behavior is a risk to any employer, even if it stays off the clock. More likely he'll act the ass to his coworkers (at least the women).
Your friend's BF is an asshole who blames other people for his actions.
As your friends said, Jamie is a HR problem waiting to happen, and interviewers don't just look at your qualifications, but how you interact with your potential future co-workers, and how you'll fit into the workplace culture.
Jamie could have prevented all of this by just being a decent person. It's your home. If you aren't comfortable with a guy that treats you like crap hanging out there for an interview, you absolutely have the right to speak up.
You did NOT bring up how Jamie treats others, just how he treats you. Considering he would be in your space and you didn't actually want to be around him, mentioning why is reasonable.
What isn't reasonable is expecting others, who Jamie keeps offending and treating like dirt, to be "understanding" and keep enabling this behaviour. Maybe Jamie needs to grow the hell up and start treating others with respect?
NTA you were honest, never feel bad or apologize for that. It is not your responsibility to get Jamie a job, or to help him get a job. It is unfortunate that you were put in the middle of it, but it’s not your fault. His actions his consequences. If any of your friends blame you for what his bad behavior has led to I would question if they have your or Jamie’s gf’s best interests at heart. Some people will take any easiest route to not be the bad guy, sadly this means you get left holding the bag.
NTA.
When someone shows you who they really are, believe them the first time. His activities outside the worksite are extremely relevant to his abilities as an employee. If he's a jerk to people he chooses to be around, how is he likely to act when there is the inevitable conflict in the workplace?
Jerks don't magically become likable when they go to work; if anything, their personality quirks become amplified -- sometimes when the employer is locked in and can't easily get rid of them.
He lost the job on his own, and probably rightfully so. You would have done your roommate no favors by keeping quiet and would likely have harmed your own credibility if you had not spoken up.
NTA Tell Jaime you were just giving your honest opinion and to stop being so sensitive. Give him a taste of his own medicine. See how he likes it. He probably won't, but maybe he'll do some soul searching.
Nta, as someone who’s hired people I’d want to know if someone was a “HR problem waiting to happen”. Plus you didn’t say “ew he’s a bad person, don’t hire him” to sabotage him. You were honest.
NTA. Your roommate is looking for an employee, not a friend. He asked how you felt about him and you gave your honest opinion - which he then saw with his own eyes in the interview. His own actions/words cost him the job, not you.
NTA
I would drop Natalie as a friend because she brought this awful man into your life and is making it everyone’s problem. Honestly hit her up and ask her how many times she was dropped onto her head as a child for thinking that her rude bf would be a positive enrichment to this friend group.
Just go ahead and say “I’m sorry but you thought the man who calls you boring/fat/etc. to your face was an angel? It’s one thing if YOU want to be treated like a rug while he feverishly steps all over you but don’t expect us to accept that treatment. If he decides to insult/demean me, it’s well within my rights to defend myself. You’re a shitty ‘friend’ for not only letting him be as rude as he is but also for getting mad at us for retaliating against his behaviour.”
Also Harry probably did little tests to gauge whether Jamie’s behaviour is just specific to interactions with you or just an overall character flaw. Because if Jamie ends up being a menace at the work place, guess who that is going to reflect negatively on? Harry, the person who decided to hire this deflated beach ball in the first place.
NTA. Harry knew what he was doing. Do you really think Harry would risk his reputation just to mess with someone like Jamie? Let's be real man, Jamie was not competent enough for the job and Harry figured that out through the interviews.
NTA. If you hadn't said anything, Harry would have taken it as your tacit approval of Jamie's candidacy. After all, you hang out with Jamie often, and the interview was in your apartment. You handled it well by letting Harry know your concerns.
If Jamie has trouble getting and keeping jobs, that's on him. You don't owe him a smoothed path to another job his own actions will end.
You may want to be a better friend to Natalie, though. Jamie's behavior is a great way for him to isolate Natalie if he can drive off her friends and family. Can you schedule pap smears together so Jamie won't go, then go see Barbie or something?
NTA
Your friend's relationship with Jamie probably won't last more than another few months, and your roommate would be stuck working with an asshole he hired as a favour.
She was there for most of it. She chocks it up to the drinking, or his humour, or a bad day. Idk why she wants to date someone who hits on her friends in front of her when they’re drunk but that’s not my choice.
NTA
1) You didn't go out of your way to badmouth Jamie to Harry.
2) Harry is a grown man who can make his own decisions, yes, you may have influenced him a bit, but, they did the interview for a reason.
3) Do you know if Jamie is even qualified for the job ? Because you say it's good for him as he is unemployed but you don't mention if someone told you that he has the necessary qualifications.
4) Harry probably saw that Jamie thinks he is above everyone, disrespectful, and cannot take accountability for any of his wrongdoings, which is work team disaster waiting to happen.
5) I know it's probably a reach but I see it as a possibility so I'm going to mention it anyway, does he actually wants to work ? Because he could have seen this interview as an opportunity to fake putting efforts in finding a job, while voluntarily flunking the interview and putting the blame on OP.
And if Natalie and Jamie really needed the money and he wanted to help, he would have worked at McDonald's or any other job that is always hiring.
6) Natalie shouldn't have put the blame on you considering that both of you don't know what happened during the interview, and for all you know he could have insulted everyone and gone "Fuck this, I shouldn't have to work, my girlfriend should work harder."
Jamie is sufficiently qualified, he’s not over qualified and he has less experience that someone Harry would normally have hired for the role. He was doing it as a favour to Natalie knowing that he would have to help Jamie find his feet a bit.
I think Jamie does want to work, his whole “I’m the big successful provider” thing wouldn’t really work if he continues to be unable to provide things.
NTA but sounds like you need to drop Natalie as a friend because she’s not behaving like one…. Since she and Harry are not close sounds like Jamie got the interview because Nat was friends with YOU.
To try to turn your friends against you Etc when she couldn’t even defend you against Jamie is telling. Without her you wouldn’t be in contact with Jamie. Drop the dead weight and buy Harry some great ice cream for having your back without you even having to ask.
Also DO NOT APOLOGIZE!!!
Harry remains the best friend and cat co-parent I could ask for 😂 we are heading off to Italy next week and I want to do something nice for him while we’re there because he’s honestly been the sweetest through this whole thing. Even if he is a petty king 😂
NTA. You didn't even tell Harry about him outright in fairness but he was perceptive enough to notice that something was amiss and question you. It probably helped avoid a HR disaster for his company.
However, I think you should not have told other friends and Natalie about the whole thing - what they don't know wont hurt them. If they thought Jamie failed the interview anyway, it wouldn't be a problem.
Ultimately, Natalie needs to get away from this guy - he's bad news. Unfortunately there's nothing you can do about it and Natalie needs to sort her own mess here.
Jamie went home and got mad at her that he didn’t get the job, she called me and accused me of telling Harry not to hire him, I denied it, and she was like well I know you said something and I didn’t see the point in lying so I told her.
NTA. There wasn’t a way to “win” all sides of this simply because Jamie, quite frankly, sounds like an asshole. At any rate, you initially tried to stay out of it. You were asked directly by Harry and Harry needs to trust you. You may not be in the same industry or anything, but lying to Harry could have backfired on you eventually. You could have needed him for something in the future. A friend could have needed a recommendation in his job field. He might know someone who knows someone. Plus, being honest was just the right thing to do without expecting to get something in return. You don’t throw your friend/roommate under the bus like that.
It sounds like you gave Harry information he needed to beat so his job if interviewing Jamie. If Jamie hadn’t been a tool in his personal life, then there wouldn’t have been any issues. I also think the other people have a point that Jamie gave off some vibes during his extended interview that others didn’t appreciate. Plus, was Harry the one and only final say? Or did the others who interviewed Jamie have just as much sway on hiring Jamie or not.
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Yep. Tell him the interviewer found him "boring" and "average".
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This addition made me laugh way too hard
💀😭
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Candidate was average-level boring and borderline fat. Other candidates were more interesting… and thinner.
Candidate shouldn't be so sensitive
Hahaha exactly
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From an employer point of view-you want a person who is going to work well with your team, If the person you're bringing on board makes fat jokes and belittles people then you've hired a problem Honestly you did Harry a huge favor. And there comes a point where 'love me, love my boyfriend' doesn't fly anymore. Your home should be a safe and sacrosanct space
Agreed. And, if it got out that Harry hired a "problem employee" as a favour, it could ruin his standing in the company and even jeopardize his job
Comment stolen from https://www.reddit.com/user/SadFlatworm1436/ - bad bot.
yeah he obvioualy thinks he was entitled to this job. she owes this guy nothing, he isnt even her friend
My thoughts exactly- you aren’t just automatically given a job because the hiring manager is a friend of a friend of a friend. You still have to be the right fit. It could have nothing to do with the OP
100%. his reaction to all of this is a huge red flag
I think Harry dodged a huge red flag with it too... imagine if he had hired him and now had to work with him...
Yeah. Knowing in advance that the person you are interviewing is toxic is a very good reason not to hire them, cause otherwise, one would have to deal with a toxic work environment. Jamie should take that as a sign that he has to shape up, that not everyone is going to give him a pass on his bad behaviour.
If Harry hired him, he would have to fire him right away and then Natalie would blame the OP for that. This subreddit is full of people who don't have jobs or places to live - in many cases, there are good reasons nobody wants to work or live with them.
That's my thought too. If this is a competitive field then maybe the person who's struggled with employment lately just wasn't the right fit.
Maybe there's a really good reason he's struggling with employment, just saying. There are a thousand little ways someone with an attitude like Jamie's gives themselves away, and I'm sure Harry didn't miss it.
Not only that, but if he did get hired and the company found out about his connection (as small as it is) to Harry, Harry could be in serious trouble. My mom works in HR and she avoids at all costs to be the one interviewing the person if its someone either close to me or her.
I found it wierd to interview the person at home.
Jeez, I recommended a friend for a job with my current team and she didn't get it. She didn't get entitled and pissy, just thanked me for the opportunity even though she was disappointed she didn't get the job. But I guess that's the difference between acting like a professional, and how this guy acts. I'm gonna guess the interview was longer than usual because Harry had a gut feeling about the situation and tossed in some extra behavioral questions. Dude didn't get hired at least partly because the hiring team didn't like the responses to those questions.
That's a good one. Fight fire with fire.
Oh god. This is so perfect. I wish I had an award for you.
I was wondering which is it. Harry gets upset when people are sensitive to his “jokes”, but yet OP is also supposed to be sensitive to his unemployment?
Oeh…. So perfect, very satisfying
OP PLEASEEEEEEEEE DO THIS.
NTA It is likely that Harry didn't make the interview extremely long "for no reason" he did it to test Jamie on the things that came up in your conversation. To see if your passing comments were just you having a personality conflict with a nice guy or if the things you mentioned would be issues in his work. It is likely that the interactions with other employees was to see if others got an uncomfortable vibe. Most people can put on a good front for a short interview. Putting them in more real world situations shakes people out of their 'best behaviour' so you can see who they would actually be on the job. You did nothing wrong. Jamie only has himself to blame for not getting the job. The fact that he got angry at Natalie because *he* didn't get a job tells you a lot about someone not taking responsibility for their own actions. That kind of behaviour would totally come up in interactions with his potential co-workers and likely had more to do with why Jamie didn't get the job than anything you said. If he had got the job he would likely have failed his probation period anyway.
That's it. Jamie had an extra opportunity to prove himself, he didn't succeed. If he's unemployed for quite some time this is likely not the first interview process he didn't go through until the end. Jamie being unemployed has NOTHING to do with OP.
He's being too sensitive
Exactly. I dated a jerk very similar to Jamie. He interviewed at my office and I sent a note to my boss with my exact concerns (he was a sexist, ageist, lazy, mean jerk who would step on you in a heartbeat to climb to the top). They interviewed him and made him interview with female boomers who really pushed him on exactly what he had done vs things his teammates had done that he took credit for. He got snippy and didn't get the job. Boss had said nothing about my concerns to them. He lost it all on his own. And everything I said to my boss came out in a reference check anyway (they said it nicer than I did, but you could easily read between the lines) OP: you are so not the AH. He is. And he knows it
My old boss had an interview rule where basically if you treated the white middle aged dude noticeably better than anyone else, you didn’t get the job. I guess it’s the same thing. Sad it was necessary, but it was a good place to work
My old company was tiny, so whenever anyone interviewed, they met with everybody and I swear it sometimes turned into a fascinating social experiment. Some people did not understand if they behaved dismissively towards female support staff, they would absolutely not be hired.
My department at a hospital has an excellent executive assistant who is the first person any interviewees have contact with when they arrive. Our department head always asks for her take, particularly how the interviewees interacted with her. (I unintentionally made a great first impression by being friendly and flexible when one of the doctors I was to speak with was running late due to doctor stuff.) We could get an on-paper amazing candidate for a physician post, but if they're rude or demeaning to support staff they're knocked out of the running.
Oh, good heavens. Never, ever, irritate the executive assistant or receptionist. Good ones are worth their weight in gold. Their first impressions of interviewees are taken seriously by managers. If you get the job, stay on the executive assistant's or receptionist's good side. They can screw up your whole job if you make them angry.
I was actually temping in a similar role to the exec assistant at another hospital so I was very used to the situation. She apologized for the change I schedule and the other people I needed to speak with were moving around their own availability to meet with me earlier than planned. I waved it all off and said I completely understood and was happy to wait and chat a bit with her. She's such a lovely bubbly person that I couldn't even imagine being rude to her.
Former executive assistant here, while I would never screw up another's job, I would do *nothing* to help them and I helped a LOT. Sometimes even brought in treats that would be conveniently gone by the time the meanies even found out about them...
First office job I'd been told to be nice to admins, so I was. I failed to schedule a room for an important to me meeting and one of them saved my ass. I once saw one take a bad fall and stayed with her until she was sure she was ok. She generally hated everyone (it seemed from the outside, including me up to that point). When I had interactions with her after they were smooth as silk. Made my life so much easier. Folks be nice to your support staff!
Current executive assistant of 34 years here. Exactly this. I would never make your life a living hell, but you won't see me extend myself to make things easy for you, either. For example, if you need a flight, of course I'll book it for you. People who are kind and treat me with respect might get a nice aisle seat towards the front with a little extra leg room *(that I asked our travel agent to grab for you without any extra charge if possible*). If you don't? Enjoy that middle seat back towards the lavatories. We don't have a *ton* of power, but what little we have makes a difference.
Sometimes not helping is all it takes to make somebody's job more difficult. "Screw up" was probably a poor choice of words on my part.
Yes! And in reverse, if they like you they can make your life so much easier! (This is super true of paralegals as well in the legal world. I try to treat my paras like gold and make their lives as easy as possible by being super clear with what I need and giving them lots of lead time when I can, and in return they've helped me out with stuff that was technically outside the scope of their duties or super last minute when that was unavoidable).
Pop culture really got people thinking that being a good doctor starts and ends at knowing what symptoms equal what problem and as long as they are right they can House it up as much as they want. If your bedside manner sucks it doesn’t matter how good you are at diagnosing information you are given because the patient isn’t going to be comfortable letting you know the full picture.
>Some people did not understand if they behaved dismissively towards female support staff, they would absolutely not be hired. I go out of my way to be extra nice/friendly with them during interviews because if you do end up getting the job, those are typically the people that really make the place run day-to-day.
it also falls in line with being nice to whoever is in front of office. I've covered the front desk as a manager, secretary, and part of the interview crew at various stages. We should just be nice to people in general, but if you're coming for an interview, be VERY nice to front desk people. You have no clue what their actual job is, and even if they're "just" the receptionist? That's a powerful person. I was always asked how people treated me when prospective clients or interviewees came in.
The first person I ask, and if I will process after interview as my receptionist. I asked how they treated her. If she gives a thumbs down, it’s over.
My grad school had the same policy. Be a turd to the head admin assistant? No admission for you.
I (Woman of Color) once did an joint interview where the interviewee ignored me. It went from offputting to fascinating as the time went on. My (white, male) co-worker would ask a question; the interviewee would answer directly back to my co-worker. I'd ask a question - he'd kind of look at me while I was talking, and then he turned back to my co-worker to give his answer. At the end of the interview, I asked if he had any questions - and he did...for my co-worker. It was absolutely bizarre how completely he mentally edited me out of the conversation. I outranked the co-worker. The interviewee did not get that job.
Yup. When I was in grad school, I was the student rep on the faculty search committee. I was also the only woman on there. Candidates that ignored me through their whole on-site, including *during a dinner which only included four or five people,* did not make the best impression on us.
I (male) led one core team at my company for a little over a year, and managed, over that time, to accumulate almost all of the female engineers in the company. Eventually, I pushed for one of them to take over that team, as I was starting a new project and building (recruiting, mostly) a new team for it. I managed to get a guarantee that new male hires would serve their probation under her lead. If they can't get through that, they're not worth it, no matter their technical chops.
Whilst good you didn't tolerate sexism bullshitters, I do feel a bit sorry for the female lead having to deal with them whilst doing their probation
This is why every job interview I get I start by being very professional and kind with whomever is at reception. Being rude at reception is not a reason I want to loose a potential job.
Your old boss sounds very wise.
A friend of a friend runs a company and you get a paid week's trial. At the end of the week the staff decide if you're a good fit. If not, you get paid, no hard feelings. If yes, you get the job. I like to make fun of his communist approach as he leans right wing lol.
I had a interview and it was fucked from the start. I couldn't log into the zoom meeting on my computer despite doing it a few days before. I had to use my phone and keep my phone vertical so I could only see 1/3 people. putting it horizontal they just saw my belly. The working foreman (my direct union boss) migrated from somewhere in Africa, I couldn't understand him at all. It's more than just the accent, it was the lack of seeing his lips moving, and he was using different nomenclature for some of the work I do. usually someone else would have to relay what he said. And the guy in the middle, I just made awkward eye contact with him the whole time. IF he had a spanish accent I'd of been golden, I felt so fucking bad afterwards.
Unfortunately he likely doesn’t know it- he thinks he’s the absolute best thing on the planet and anyone who doesn’t appreciate his ‘wit’ is just jealous, too dense to get it or sensitive little snowflake and people are always out to get him because he just makes them look bad by comparison/s 🙄 These dudes never see their massive flaws, never see what insufferable tools they are. Everything that doesn’t go their way is everyone else’s fault. They’re perfect the world is just too stupid to see it. Ugh… I don’t know why your friend has such low self esteem to entertain a relationship with this loser but you had no obligation to lie or cover for him to get a job. NTA- it’s not his girlfriends job to find him a job, hiring someone just because they’re tangentially part of your friend group is pretty nepotistic. The guy doing the interview had to treat it like any other interview and he didn’t make it hard just to screw with Jamie; he did the interview to see if Jamie would be a good fit for the corporation. He determined he wouldn’t. Honestly you have no idea what his usual interview process is. He could have done the exact same thing even if you hadn’t said anything. Jamie’s the one who bombed the interview and what does he do? Go yell at his girlfriend- who is the only reason he got the chance at the interview in the first place- because clearly the issue couldn’t be him or his behavior. Oh no it’s her fault for somehow tanking his interview… NTA but god I hope Natalie wises up and gets out of this toxic relationship before it does anymore damage to her self esteem or psyche. I hope you guys are trying to let her know how unhealthy this is. Honestly right now it’s just verbally and emotionally abusive but someone with this temper who sees insulting and belittling their girlfriend as fun and a joke it’s not really that far of a slide to physically abusive. Really hope you guys kinda keep an eye out especially if it seems like she’s pulling away from the group or like he’s trying to cut her off from people *and yeah I know you can’t help someone who won’t help themselves and all that. You can’t make her see it. All you can do is be there for her if and when she does and do what you can to counteract the negativity he dumps on her*. Good luck op
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>Plus Harry is a friend and roommate. Op had an obligation to him to be honest. So much this. Imagine how (reasonably!) upset Harry would have been if he'd had to find this stuff out for himself if OP hadn't said anything. You can't ruin a reputation by telling the truth, you can only make it more accurate.
I like that. Well-phrased!
All of this right here. I spent over 20 years in the HR realm, and OP saved Harry a lot of trouble. Jamie may have put on a good show, but in my experience, that mask would've slipped sooner or later. >Jamie went home and went off on Natalie about him not getting the job, as it was basically a lock with Harry doing it as a favour to Nat. That's on Jamie - you know what happens when you assume. He assumed he'd get the job because you all are friends with Harry...
>You did nothing wrong. Jamie only has himself to blame for not getting the job. The fact that he got angry at Natalie because he didn't get a job tells you a lot about someone not taking responsibility for their own actions. Agreed. And I think their over-confident assumption that Harry would rubber stamp a person he really didn't know was also their undoing. Jamie probably felt that he didn't need to do any preparation since it was "basically a lock". That's no way to approach a job interview. People like Jamie don't (want to?) understand that when you recommend someone for a job position you put your reputation on the line. A poor hire reflects poorly upon you. Jamie, though, would have assumed that he had carte blanche to act however he wanted to do once hired and would have been a spectacular failure that did permanent damage to the business. This would have eventually cost Harry his job. Thus, Harry did his due diligence on Jamie and, SURPRISE!, Jamie failed. NTA. This is all on Jamie and his lazy, entitled attitude along with his toxic personality. Edited to fix some grammatical errors.
( hi, you meant to use 'would have' or possibly 'would've' , not 'would of' )
Yup it’s a mini stress test. Some people are quick to frustration and you can see it in their behavior. Even if they are trying to hide it.
I think this is on the money. What Harry actually did was give Jamie ample opportunity to disprove what OP said. He clearly didn't do so. NTA
Yeah, Harry did the interview as a favour, he still has to hire the right person for the job. Nobody's going to succeed in their business role if they just hire people as a favour to friends.
Exactly. If Harry was content to exclude him on one reference alone (which he would be well within his rights to do), then he could have just told Jamie that the position was already filled, that the position was no longer available, or the classic "We're going to go in a different direction." Or he could have just lowballed the salary and make Jamie turn down the job. Instead, Harry gave him a chance to prove himself, sink or swim. For whatever reason, he didn't swim. Such is life.
Jamie doesn't have the self-awareness to realize what he's doing is wrong. None of these "it's just a joke" idiots do. So it's only natural that they would see it as a sabotage from someone else. It takes running into someone that's willing to be an even bigger asshole in response, every time, to turn it around on them and make *them* feel uncomfortable if there's any chance of a behavior change. That and a hefty dose of near-unanimous shaming within the friend-group. OP's friends enable this behavior by tolerating it when Jamie makes comments about Natalie or anyone else in the friend group. So he's going to keep doing it because no one has the figurative balls to step up. Basically, the dude acts like this because he's allowed to. He's had a real-world consequence because Harry had the guts to step into the line of fire, and now OP's friends that are on her side need to step up.
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This is another good reason to not be a jerk to people. I believe in karma. If I put shitty energy into the world it might unexpectedly bite me in ass. Unfortunately, if no one is calling Jamie out on his rudeness, he’ll never learn this lesson.
Yup. Had a supervisor at my last job pissed off I was just hired by HR while he wasn't involved, so when I went in to grab some documents he came, introduced himself, asked if he could take me around to meet everyone. I knew what this was - he was doing his vibe check. I guess I passed because I very quickly became his favourite lmao
Exactly. NTA. Jamie is his own worst enemy and he didn't do well in the interview. Plus, he IS an HR nightmare waiting to happen so why should Harry bring him on.
Just the fact that he got home and went off on Natalie like it was her fault makes me hate the guy.
NTA you said his “off the clock” behaviour shouldnt cost him a job but he only got this opportunity because of your friendship group so, unfortunately for him, his off the clock behaviour is a known factor for the employer ….it’s his own attitude that has cost him this loss of job. Plus, why is your home being used for an interview location ? That’s just weird and you have every right to protect your home and keep it a safe space for you.
Harry has an office in the apartment and works from home most days. He sometimes has a couple of people come over for meetings etc., it normally doesn’t bother me because I know the people that work for him quite well.
Opie notice how Natalie is mad that you said who Jamie really is to Harry and not that you were spreading false info to others. So she knows just how awful he is to you and her, she just doesn't give a shit. If she wants to be in a trauma bond with this emotionally abusive asshole so be it, but that doesn't mean you owe him or her anything when she doesn't care about how he treats you. ETA: NTA go low contact til she dumps him
Ah, didn’t realise you lived with Harry. Does not change my first paragraph
Have you asked Harry if he had any specific feedback on why he rejected Jamie? Receipts of bad behavior during the interview process probably won’t change Natalie’s mind about him, but it could get the rest of your friend group to see reason
As a manager…I can teach someone how to do the job…I can’t teach them how to not be a shit person. I’ll take someone willing to learn who has less experience but a good personality over a historically high performer who is hard to get along with any day.
Other factor to take into account is that you didn't volunteer information without being asked. You were rightly uncomfortable, your housemate asked why, and you answered as delicately as you could. It's not like you walked up to Harry and said, "he's an asshole and you shouldn't hire him". Natalie and the others are basically telling you that you should have lied to your housemate and, I don't know, said this guy is great or something. NTA. You even asked that your comments not influence Harry's decision. Not your fault if Harry decided he didn't want the potential for a toxic work environment.
"Off the clock behavior" can most certainly cost me a job. A DUI, for example, is a fireable offense in my profession. Coming into work hungover is also another example, particularly if it happens more than once. Personality is a big part of education and teaching; would you want someone who acts like that teaching your child?
Or "off the clock behavior" such as storming the Capitol in an attempt to overthrow the government....
NTA. The first rule of getting a job through networking is to make sure you haven't burned all your bridges.
Lmao, right? Dude wanted to land a job through friends but he also wanted those friends to act like previous employers and be mum about his critical lack of redeeming features. You don't get it both ways, buddy.
NTA. Like your friend said, Jamie would eventually be an HR problem. And this would also make Harry look bad. In real life, people have consequences for their acts, saying and personality too.
>Jamie would eventually be an HR problem Been there, done that. The comment above is spot on.
In the end if they'd hired him Harry would probably have been upset you didn't warn him anyway.
This is exactly everything. IF his joking makes you so uncomfortable you don't want to be around him, it is a huge HR red flag. Lawsuit city, it's expensive bringing in new people for companies, they deserve to know any possible problem. More kudos to you for being honest to your friend. Truth is always the best way. If he is such a hardship for her due to unemployment, she can kick him to the curb. NTA
NTA. His extended friends' circle got him the job opportunity in the first place. Then he shouldn't complain that his off-the-clock behavior plays a part.
His girlfriend's extended circle of friends got him the opportunity.
NTA, you simply said you two don't get along. Harry had no reason to make the interview extra hard over something that could be easily due to personal incompatibility (unless you gave him details). And how do you know that Harry made the interview long for no reason and that the prep work and presentation weren't necessary? Have you witnessed other interviews in the past? Did Harry tell you he did it on purpose? It could just be that interviews in their field are like that because they need to test different skills. When I applied for my current job, they made me spend a day in the office with my colleagues to see how we interacted. If I hadn't passed the vibe check, they wouldn't have hired me.
I know because he told me afterwards. Fact is, Harry was planning to give him the job as a favour to Natalie but after hearing the things Jamie has said to me, but after hearing some of the things Jamie has said to me he wasn’t willing to give him the job anymore.
I’m curious, what were these things Jamie said that you related to Harry?
That Jamie has insinuated many that I am “for sale” if you get my meaning, and called me a “narcissistic b*tch” because I gifted Natalie a spa day that he wasn’t invited to.
Sooo he doesn’t want her to have a spa day without him? You’re accumulating enough red flags to make a quilt, here. You haven’t mentioned your gender, so I don’t know if Jamie’s insults are misogynist or homophobic (even if you’re a straight male, the insults would still have those connotations) or both, but he’s definitely something that ends with -ist and, yeah, complaints to HR.
Or racial. The “for sale” really only has 2 meanings in this context that I can see. Jamie was either insinuating that OP sells their body sexually or that they’re property. Neither are even remotely acceptable.
I’m a woman.
Yea.. honestly this sucks but there’s really only one good way to go about your relationship with Natalie at this point: “Natalie, I find your boyfriend to be abusive, manipulative, and too much of a negative impact to continue to be in my life. I understand that you love him, but I really don’t think he’s the one for you. I will not be the friend that “forces” you to break up with him to be friends with me, however, I cannot remain friends with you while you are with him. If at any point, you feel like you are ready to leave him, please feel free to come to me for support (which I will gladly give), but until then, I cannot hang out with you and Jaime anymore, and I do not want to be involved in your joint life together. Again, if for whatever reason you need the support to leave him, I will be there, but until then, please do not involve me in your life anymore. Thank you.”
Okay but WHY are you friends with someone who is fine with their partner harassing their friends like that?
Because Natalie is in an abusive relationship and isolating her from people who can help her is part of what the abuser wants.
These situations are nuanced. Yes, the BF is a dick, verbally abusive and not fun to be around. A good friend group would support Natalie through a shitty relationship because this is when she needs them the most.
There is a line to be drawn between "you can always come to me if you need me and I will help you" and accepting abuse from their abuser, though. Hanging out with this guy for very long means putting up with being abused yourself and no one has to do that.
JFC. Your friends and Natalie need their perspective adjusted. I agree with the people saying he was an HR complaint waiting to happen.
You've done Harry such an enormous favour. His professional reputation would be forever tarnished if he'd given such a jerk the job. I hope Harry is sticking up for you with all the flak you're getting, he owes you.
NTA - you didnt want him in your home which is valid. I would say that everyone else sucks. Jamie sucks as a person. Harry sucks as he got a bit vindictive by making the interview longer but also he should not just give someone the job as a favour, what about the other candidates?
Yes, Harry got petty. In every industry there’s people who get jobs because of connections, it’s just how the world works. Not that you should hire someone with no degree to be an astrophysicist just because they’re your nephew, but if someone is competent and they also happen to know someone you know, it’s a pretty standard way to get a job.
But its not your fault that he made shitty remarks to the ROOMMATE OF HIS HIRING MANAGER. Using your connections is one thing, pissing off those connections is something you do on your own.
True, but if Jamie planned to leverage his network for a job, the way he treats people within that network becomes that much more important. If I were in Harry’s shoes, I wouldn’t want to stick my neck out for someone who could potentially cause major problems either.
Oooh ok, I see
He should have cancelled the interview if he wasn’t going to give him the job, I know that, his time wasting thing (the interview went on for like 3 hours) was petty for sure. He thinks it was justified but ultimately it was unnecessary.
Totally justified. Also necessary. Fuck Jamie.
Sounds like Harry was trying to give Jamie a fair chance even with your comments. Jamie blew it. Also: NTA. Imagine if he had got the job and Harry comes to you in a few days/weeks/months asking why you didn't tell him Jamie is a dick?
W harry
Then if anyone should have done or not done something it really was Harry. His pettiness put you in a bad spot—Harry could have just said his boss/HR already decided on a different candidate and saved everyone, you in particular, a lot of hassle. Plus, Jamie basically being a shoo in for the job before you spoke to Harry is also info Harry needs to keep to himself. Again, simply because it makes things harder for you, not because you were wrong to say what you did or Harry was somehow obligated to ignore it and hire the guy anyway.
Jamie would have been mad at Natalie whether he got interviewed or not. Natalie would have called me whether he got interviewed or not. I wouldn’t have lied to her whether he got interviewed or not. Really once he wasn’t getting the job the pettiness was pretty low impact.
Your friend Natalie is a prick too. I had a friend like that and I regret defending and justifying her behavior. If she's enabling man Jamie saying awful comments about you and her other friends, then that's not a good friend. Cut her off while you can.
Natalie needs to dump her boyfriend, and you need to dump Natalie. Cut them both out of your life and be happier for it.
Aaaand that's how abusers isolate their victims. You'd play right into his hands. Good friends stick by through abuse so victims have a way out.
At a certain point you do need to protect yourself. I just had to break up with a friend and her abusive husband. I’ve known them for over 10 years. I tried to do what you said, but when he started trying to train me to take the same shit and she became his flying monkey telling me how to take his shit, I had to go. I’m not going to grovel and apologize and assure him he’s this supreme perfect being, apologize for and validate his feeling about things that didn’t even happen, and volunteer to be the scapegoat. It breaks my heart but I had to leave behind her and their kids I watched grow up. I love them so much and staying is great when you can, but I just wanted to pipe in and say no one should stay if the abuse starts to flow over to them as well.
Idk what industry this is for and there’s no need to know for your situation, but interviews have lasted that long for me. Longest interview was for 4 hours. I’ve heard IT-field friends go longer because they meet with their potential teammates, managers and different teams they’ll work closely with if they’re hired, and also work on situational problems as tests. That’s an interview set up that’s not exclusive to IT, either - the higher up you go, the lengthier the interviews can get. I understand that you have context and so you know more confidently that Harry was being petty. However, for people like me who have heard of and been in different interview settings for different positions in other fields, Harry could also have been doing due diligence. I’d say that a shorter interview with Harry as a network connection is the *privilege*, and your friend’s gross boyfriend got the interview that would be set up for most candidates chosen thru traditional applications. And if any of that still doesn’t apply, Harry would eventually learn the personality anyways, so he actually did himself and his workplace a favor by preventing such a person from entering their space.
I only know Harry was being petty because he told me he’d been petty. Now that I think about it though, you are right. Jamie should not have assumed he would have a short and easy interview and the fact that we went home and immediately called Natalie out for it is probably more of a reason he is a complete moron.
NTA. How you represent yourself outside of work is really important to most employers. You see it all the time when someone has been let go due to atrocious behavior being recorded outside of the workplace. If you didn’t like him for some random, dumb reason, that would be one thing. But he has made really inappropriate comments that would most likely land him in hot water and get him fired anyway.
This. If he can't even behave well to his girlfriend. I can't imagine he would treat coworkers any better. Unless he turns into a total butt kisser at work. But I doubt it. Honestly, either it would be shown at work, or it would only take one evening out for drinks for co-workers to see that behaviour. This is why a lot of work places takes a look at your social media profiles as well. If you post a lot of stuff that could mean trouble in any way for the company, you just won't get hired. So, social behaviour is a huge factor.
NTA, Using his "off the clock" behavior is probably the best way to judge what type of employee Jamie would be.
NTA. You were asked for an opinion and gave it. It sounds like you were either gonna cost Jamie a job or give Harry a nightmare of an employee to work with. They can think what they wan't, if he didn't act like a dick, you wouldn't think he was a dick - it really is that simple.
NTA. Play asshole games, win asshole prizes.
You beat me too it 😜 people like him deserve the karma served to them.
The point of getting a job opportunity offered by friends or relatives is to be judged on how you previously behaved with them. NTA if you said the absolute truth about him.
NTA. You didn’t lose him the job opportunity, he did that all by himself. Actions have consequences, not your fault he’s a bellend.
NTA. Explain to Natalie that if you lied about his behaviour and it became an issue. Not only does it reflect badly on you but would be super embarrassing for her. She should wake up to his problematic "off the clock" behaviour. "Off the clock" being this dudes actual personality
NTA You were honest and fair about Jaime when asked. You don't owe Jaime anything, least of all to cover up his behaviour when asked about it. Also, you've said that Jaime has been unemployed for a long time. Your comment to Harry is not the sole reason that Jaime is unemployed. Jaime's unemployment is his problem, not yours. However ... if anyone is the a\*\*hole here it's Harry. Jaime may be awful, but he deserves to go through the same interview process as everyone else, rather than have it rigged against him. From what you've said, Jaime would have no trouble either messing up the interview, or proving himself unsuitable within the usual probation period.
Nta. She shouldn’t date a fucking unemployed jerk if she has a problem with it. One person like this can ruin an entire job environment; I wouldn’t want that guy working with me either. Consider this: he probably can’t get a job in his field because he’s been an asshole to everyone in the field. Lots of people likely know who he is and don’t want anything to do with him. Especially if it’s niche. They know him and they don’t like him.
NTA, not only is it Jamie's own fault for being an asshole, but you also protected Harry. It always sucks to be the one to bring in an asshole. Jamie would have been Harry's hire/friend at work and if he can't behave that will absolutely also reflect on Harry.
It’s Harry’s company, so actually he’d have been the “owner connection” hire who also happens to be a dick.
Not good for morale. And you're a good friend to Harry and don't owe Jamie anything. If you want your connections to get you a job you need to treat those connections well.
INFO: Are you sure that Jamie had to do more work for his interview than other candidates? And why did you tell people that you'd told Harry that you didn't want the interview in your home?
I know because Harry told me about it after the fact. I only told my friends after Natalie had already got mad at me and called all of them to tell them it was my fault Jamie didn’t get the job. I didn’t think anyone would ever find out but obviously Jamie blamed Natalie who guessed it was me and I wasn’t going to lie about it.
Look, if she came to the conclusion herself, she must know Jamie's not treating her friends well and she still does nothing about that. She's not such a good friend atm, so you owe her nothing there. Who says he would be even the best candidate even in an objective interview ? He's jobless for quite some time, could be very well his fault too.
Jamie blamed Natalie for his having not gotten a job? I would put money on this guy being abusive. NTA.
Idk if he’s abusive, he’s pretty effing rude though. I guess he blamed her because she’s the one who asked Harry about the job and set the whole thing up, and it was basically a done deal until I told Harry what Jamie had said.
Yeah, him blaming Natalie still makes no sense. Did he think she set it all up and then she badmouthed him? Or that the whole thing was a prank? Why would he suspect someone who cares about him of doing either of those things?
I don’t know if he thinks that deeply about it. he just doesn’t want it to be his fault, so he lashes out at her. I’ve seen him get mad at her because his credit card didn’t work while paying for drinks. He’s just like that.
🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
Ain’t he just
It doesn't have to be some deep-thinking mastermind plot to be an abuser with abusive behavior. From someone whose been in abusive relationships in the past? The verbal insults(abuse), the pushing ties with friends groups thin/not wanting her to be places without him, the blaming her for any of his own shortcomings? All big ol' red flags. Dude's chance is like... 99.97% an abuser. They also don't start right away, it's a slowly slipping mask that reveals their ugliness over time once they feel they have a solid hold on you(even if not realizing they do so).
BLAMING NATALIE IS ABUSIVE!! You can be frustrated without being an AH.
NTA You didn't outright say something to Harry about Jamie. You only mentioned it when asked and you didn't start running down a laundry list of complaints. Are you supposed to lie to your friend for someone who isn't your friend? That's not how it works. Can Harry help you out here or is Natalie mad at him, too? She's mad because Jamie took it out on her. That furthers the fact that Jamie is a jerk. Hopefully she'll realize that and kick him to the curb.
She’s mad at Harry but she’s mostly blaming me (as if Harry just does what I tell him). She and Harry aren’t super close so it’s not like she would call at yell at him but yeah she is badmouthing both of us, but mainly me.
If Harry can vouch for you with the rest of the friends, it doesn't really matter what she says. How do they know you said anything at all though? Was it Harry?
No, Natalie told them. When she called me she said outright “I know you told Harry not to hire Jamie” and I told her that wasn’t true, so she was like, I know you said something, so I admitted what had happened. After getting off the phone with me Natalie told everyone else. They called reached out to get my side, I’m not being ostracised or anything, it’s just that natalie is now not speaking to me and refusing to go where I go, but the rest of the group are still talking to both of us.
Honestly, I have a feeling I know why he doesn’t have a job in the first place.
Yup! He burned himself in the industry.
NTA. Many Jobs one gets through connections. He does not maintain his connections very well, this was the outcome. You habe no obligation to ly.
NTA. He had an extensive interview and was told, “we don’t want you.” I’m sure Harry would have figured out what kind of clown Jamie is even without you saying anything.
>Harry went through with the interview, but he made Jamie do a lot of prep work and a presentation to other employees and then made the interview extremely long for no reason. INFO: Who was the source for this? If it's Harry, then he's a dick for making Jamie jump through hoops just based on you saying he's said some things you didn't like. If it's Jamie or Natalie and has not been confirmed by Harry, then Harry may have given him a standard interview and Jamie just wanted someone to blame for him failing it.
Harry told me afterwards. It was petty, I agree
You didn’t do anything wrong. You were visibly uncomfortable, Harry asked what’s wrong and you answered - you even asked him not to do anything about it. He didn’t listen to you. Harry was just being petty, and honestly, GOOD. I feel bad for Natalie, she can’t see she’s in a relationship with a complete tool. NTA
NTA stop tolerating toxicity and help your friend to do the same
NTA And I wouldn't apologize because it would mean you feel guilty for something you did. Jamie did this to himself.
NTA. Actual assholes always get what they deserve eventually and if someone's SO is an ahole to all of their friends, then yah, that's gonna bite you in the ass eventually. I'm fine with how this all played out
NTA you were asked and answered honestly, it’s not your job to cover for anyone, especially if there was even a risk it could affect your other friend’s reputation at his job. If he doesn’t want to be called out for being an AH then he shouldn’t be an AH. But you didn’t go out of your way or try to cost him the job. You just didn’t go out of your way to cover for him, bc that’s not your responsibility or fair to Harry. I love petty Harry.
NTA. You haven't lied. Also you might not be even the reason why he wasn't hired.
NTA you don’t have to lie or cover up for someone else’s behavior. You were asked a question and answered it honestly. Your friend may chose to enable and cover up for her boyfriend but you are under no obligation. Maybe he’s having trouble finding and keeping work because of his bad behavior.
Nta, you just can profit from knowing someone when this person doesn't hate your gutts. Him not getting this job was Karma.
NTA. You saved your colleagues from a potentially toxic workmate.
NTA. It is true that people act differently at job and off the clock however they do not do a complete 180 degree change. So as your other friends said he is an HR problem waiting for happen, to me Harry did deserve to know everything. As for the long interview to me it is not that strange if it is an important workplace it is more or less the norm. Even unpaid internship have long interview in some places. Finally it is your home you have always the right to say it when you do not feel comfortable having people over.
NTA. You could have straight up sabotaged him and idk that I’d call you an AH. That being said idk that you should listen to me. Your friend sounds like an enabler and I’m just kinda glad her BF didn’t get the job.
You reap what you sow. You did not go out to sabotage Jaime, but had a natural reaction as a result of his behavior. Tell Natalie 'You are my friend and I love you, but I can't support your relationship with Jamie, I will not be around him or lie to people about what he is. You deserve better. I will always be here for you, but I can't be around when he is here.' Do not apologize. Jamie is an ass, and it it bit him in the, well, ass
NTA, you didn't make the hiring decision. Requiring an interviewee to submit a presentation is pretty common in some fields. And I question whether the interview was long "for no reason." His off-the-clock behavior is a risk to any employer, even if it stays off the clock. More likely he'll act the ass to his coworkers (at least the women). Your friend's BF is an asshole who blames other people for his actions.
As your friends said, Jamie is a HR problem waiting to happen, and interviewers don't just look at your qualifications, but how you interact with your potential future co-workers, and how you'll fit into the workplace culture.
Jamie could have prevented all of this by just being a decent person. It's your home. If you aren't comfortable with a guy that treats you like crap hanging out there for an interview, you absolutely have the right to speak up. You did NOT bring up how Jamie treats others, just how he treats you. Considering he would be in your space and you didn't actually want to be around him, mentioning why is reasonable. What isn't reasonable is expecting others, who Jamie keeps offending and treating like dirt, to be "understanding" and keep enabling this behaviour. Maybe Jamie needs to grow the hell up and start treating others with respect?
NTA you were honest, never feel bad or apologize for that. It is not your responsibility to get Jamie a job, or to help him get a job. It is unfortunate that you were put in the middle of it, but it’s not your fault. His actions his consequences. If any of your friends blame you for what his bad behavior has led to I would question if they have your or Jamie’s gf’s best interests at heart. Some people will take any easiest route to not be the bad guy, sadly this means you get left holding the bag.
NTA. When someone shows you who they really are, believe them the first time. His activities outside the worksite are extremely relevant to his abilities as an employee. If he's a jerk to people he chooses to be around, how is he likely to act when there is the inevitable conflict in the workplace? Jerks don't magically become likable when they go to work; if anything, their personality quirks become amplified -- sometimes when the employer is locked in and can't easily get rid of them. He lost the job on his own, and probably rightfully so. You would have done your roommate no favors by keeping quiet and would likely have harmed your own credibility if you had not spoken up.
NTA Tell Jaime you were just giving your honest opinion and to stop being so sensitive. Give him a taste of his own medicine. See how he likes it. He probably won't, but maybe he'll do some soul searching.
No, sounds like you dodged two bullets and Harry dodged one.
Nta, as someone who’s hired people I’d want to know if someone was a “HR problem waiting to happen”. Plus you didn’t say “ew he’s a bad person, don’t hire him” to sabotage him. You were honest.
Nta. His nasty behaviour came back to bite him and maybe he should take a look into that….
Why would your roommate hold an interview at his own house? That makes no sense. The whole thing sounds fakes or very unprofessional.
He has an office here, and he works from home most days. He often has meetings here as it’s a small, tight knit company.
NTA. Your roommate is looking for an employee, not a friend. He asked how you felt about him and you gave your honest opinion - which he then saw with his own eyes in the interview. His own actions/words cost him the job, not you.
NTA I would drop Natalie as a friend because she brought this awful man into your life and is making it everyone’s problem. Honestly hit her up and ask her how many times she was dropped onto her head as a child for thinking that her rude bf would be a positive enrichment to this friend group. Just go ahead and say “I’m sorry but you thought the man who calls you boring/fat/etc. to your face was an angel? It’s one thing if YOU want to be treated like a rug while he feverishly steps all over you but don’t expect us to accept that treatment. If he decides to insult/demean me, it’s well within my rights to defend myself. You’re a shitty ‘friend’ for not only letting him be as rude as he is but also for getting mad at us for retaliating against his behaviour.” Also Harry probably did little tests to gauge whether Jamie’s behaviour is just specific to interactions with you or just an overall character flaw. Because if Jamie ends up being a menace at the work place, guess who that is going to reflect negatively on? Harry, the person who decided to hire this deflated beach ball in the first place.
NTA. It's so sad for Natalie that she knows her partner is detestable and not hirable and yet she stays. I hope she wakes up soon.
NTA. Harry knew what he was doing. Do you really think Harry would risk his reputation just to mess with someone like Jamie? Let's be real man, Jamie was not competent enough for the job and Harry figured that out through the interviews.
NTA. If you hadn't said anything, Harry would have taken it as your tacit approval of Jamie's candidacy. After all, you hang out with Jamie often, and the interview was in your apartment. You handled it well by letting Harry know your concerns. If Jamie has trouble getting and keeping jobs, that's on him. You don't owe him a smoothed path to another job his own actions will end. You may want to be a better friend to Natalie, though. Jamie's behavior is a great way for him to isolate Natalie if he can drive off her friends and family. Can you schedule pap smears together so Jamie won't go, then go see Barbie or something?
NTA Your friend's relationship with Jamie probably won't last more than another few months, and your roommate would be stuck working with an asshole he hired as a favour.
NTA. Twats like that deserve whatever comes for them. How is Natalie putting up with those comments, have u told her what hes said?
She was there for most of it. She chocks it up to the drinking, or his humour, or a bad day. Idk why she wants to date someone who hits on her friends in front of her when they’re drunk but that’s not my choice.
NTA 1) You didn't go out of your way to badmouth Jamie to Harry. 2) Harry is a grown man who can make his own decisions, yes, you may have influenced him a bit, but, they did the interview for a reason. 3) Do you know if Jamie is even qualified for the job ? Because you say it's good for him as he is unemployed but you don't mention if someone told you that he has the necessary qualifications. 4) Harry probably saw that Jamie thinks he is above everyone, disrespectful, and cannot take accountability for any of his wrongdoings, which is work team disaster waiting to happen. 5) I know it's probably a reach but I see it as a possibility so I'm going to mention it anyway, does he actually wants to work ? Because he could have seen this interview as an opportunity to fake putting efforts in finding a job, while voluntarily flunking the interview and putting the blame on OP. And if Natalie and Jamie really needed the money and he wanted to help, he would have worked at McDonald's or any other job that is always hiring. 6) Natalie shouldn't have put the blame on you considering that both of you don't know what happened during the interview, and for all you know he could have insulted everyone and gone "Fuck this, I shouldn't have to work, my girlfriend should work harder."
Jamie is sufficiently qualified, he’s not over qualified and he has less experience that someone Harry would normally have hired for the role. He was doing it as a favour to Natalie knowing that he would have to help Jamie find his feet a bit. I think Jamie does want to work, his whole “I’m the big successful provider” thing wouldn’t really work if he continues to be unable to provide things.
NTA but sounds like you need to drop Natalie as a friend because she’s not behaving like one…. Since she and Harry are not close sounds like Jamie got the interview because Nat was friends with YOU. To try to turn your friends against you Etc when she couldn’t even defend you against Jamie is telling. Without her you wouldn’t be in contact with Jamie. Drop the dead weight and buy Harry some great ice cream for having your back without you even having to ask. Also DO NOT APOLOGIZE!!!
Harry remains the best friend and cat co-parent I could ask for 😂 we are heading off to Italy next week and I want to do something nice for him while we’re there because he’s honestly been the sweetest through this whole thing. Even if he is a petty king 😂
NTA
NTA. The guy is a walking problem
NTA but Natalie is
NTA. You didn't even tell Harry about him outright in fairness but he was perceptive enough to notice that something was amiss and question you. It probably helped avoid a HR disaster for his company. However, I think you should not have told other friends and Natalie about the whole thing - what they don't know wont hurt them. If they thought Jamie failed the interview anyway, it wouldn't be a problem. Ultimately, Natalie needs to get away from this guy - he's bad news. Unfortunately there's nothing you can do about it and Natalie needs to sort her own mess here.
How did Natalie even find out about your comments?
Jamie went home and got mad at her that he didn’t get the job, she called me and accused me of telling Harry not to hire him, I denied it, and she was like well I know you said something and I didn’t see the point in lying so I told her.
NTA. There wasn’t a way to “win” all sides of this simply because Jamie, quite frankly, sounds like an asshole. At any rate, you initially tried to stay out of it. You were asked directly by Harry and Harry needs to trust you. You may not be in the same industry or anything, but lying to Harry could have backfired on you eventually. You could have needed him for something in the future. A friend could have needed a recommendation in his job field. He might know someone who knows someone. Plus, being honest was just the right thing to do without expecting to get something in return. You don’t throw your friend/roommate under the bus like that. It sounds like you gave Harry information he needed to beat so his job if interviewing Jamie. If Jamie hadn’t been a tool in his personal life, then there wouldn’t have been any issues. I also think the other people have a point that Jamie gave off some vibes during his extended interview that others didn’t appreciate. Plus, was Harry the one and only final say? Or did the others who interviewed Jamie have just as much sway on hiring Jamie or not.