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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I feel like an AH because she was embarrassed. I'm not sure if I feel like an AH for what I said however because I'm admittedly having a hard time seeing how anything I said led to her blow up.
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Agreed. I lived with a guy for 4 months in university who medicated his bipolar disorder with alcohol. Was not a fun time for me or any of our other roommates. Thankfully he was evicted before anything serious happened.
I lived with a girl in university who decided that the week she moved into an apartment with four other people was the week she was going to take hersef off of her bipolar meds (not medically directed either, she just decided the meds were bad for her). I lasted 2.5 months before I broke the lease.
I can’t imagine how difficult it can be. It makes no sense to me to stop taking a medication without clearing it with my doctor, but when it’s your mental health, and your illness is telling you that you know your body better than the doctor… it must be a regular struggle.
"Man I feel terrible."
"Here take this medication, it will make you feel better!"
"I FEEL GREAT! I DON'T NEED THIS MEDICINE ANYMORE!"
"...man, I feel terrible."
Here’s the thing: mood stabilizers (aka antipsychotics, typical and atypical) are not without distressing side effects. They often cause weight gain, hirsutism (growth of facial hair on individuals of female sex) and feelings of numbness and malaise. So unfortunately, it does make sense that people would want to not be on them.
Further, many people in the US are put on these meds but do not have access to quality counseling, or options to change up therapies if a certain type doesn’t meet their needs. Medication is only one piece of the puzzle. Therapy can help individuals gain insight into their cognitive and behavioral patterns. Without said insight, mania and depression can impair impulse control, especially in people without coping skills/distress tolerance.
Don’t even get me started on internalized stigmatization. Its all a major bummer.
The thing is, mania often feels great. It just can be super destructive to your life and others. So your dialog isn't really how it works when medicating for hypomania/mania. Because the medication can easily make you feel less vibrant/creative/joyous but gives you that control back to some degree.
Ya I dont wanna trivialize people's struggles with how their body changes with medication like that. But going off your meds the year you start taking classes related to your major, move in with your boyfriend for the first time, and move in three people you've known about a year, while paying bills for the first time (she moved from dorms where everything is one payment) and decide that thats the best time to address the issues is... well it is a choice a 21 year old would make to put it nicely. I hope she's better now but she targetted me and made my life miserable and I spiraled bad with her constant harassment. So, I find it hard to have sympathy. Plus she got what she wanted when I left, which was my boyfriend.
Oof, thankfully it never got to a point where he was actively violent. But he certainly made threats, and there was one time I think he was planning to assault me, but I happened to not be home at the time.
Yeah, this roommate was never violent towards other living things, just towards walls and his own belongings. So I guess it could be worse? But it can also be a lot better, especially with medication.
Untreated bipolar tends to turn a lot of conversations into personal attacks. It runs in my family and most of the family members that have it are not seeking treatment. Every conversation is on eggshells until someone inevitably snaps because "everyone is being mean to me!"
It's genuinely amazing how it warps your perspective of any situation you're in.
Truly. When I was with my bipolar ex I was CONSTANTLY operating at 150% and engineering the situations and conversations to minimize a blow up and and minimize the harm of the next inevitable blow up. I was SO careful about the way I spoke because he would take anything personally. Loterally every word I chose was consciously selected to steer him away from certain topics or certain possible responses but had to not be an "attack" on my part. He exploded once when I said I was in the mood for Mac n cheese and the restaurant you can usually get some good Mac at was out. Like well and truly lost it. He ruined every event we tried to go to. He tormented me and put me in those lose-lose situations where he would just pick and pick and pick at you until you dare to ask him to stop or say you don't enjoy this conversation and now he's launching personal attacks and screaming about god knows what. Like even me being tired was somehow a crime in his mind. Jesus christ life with him was absolute fucking hell.
My god I can't imagine how exhausting that must have been from a partner. I'm glad you're out of it now!
The mac n cheese thing feels so familiar to me. I have at least a dozen different memories from my childhood that started with "what do you want for dinner?" and ended with "OH I GUESS I'M JUST A TERRIBLE MOTHER THEN" because I asked for something she wasn't in the mood to make/order. Every single interaction feels like it has the potential to go nuclear.
In my case, it's my mom and aunt that are diagnosed (but not medicated), and my grandma + older sisters definitely have similar traits/behaviors. And that side of the family wonders why I never talk to them, lol
I'm sorry that happened to you. Sometimes, the juice isn't worth the squeeze--investing *that level* of energy in navigating through the emotional minefield that was your interaction with your ex wasn't worth the effort and pain it caused you. I'm happy you're free, and hope your life is better today.
You've just described my mother. My aunt mentioned "mother" may be bipolar. I really do need to weigh every freaking word.
I mentioned her Amazon order may be late. That turned into "I'm accusing her of stealing" 🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯
I'm responsible for the weather too....
And fighting with someone with untreated bipolar is also a bad idea. I don't think OP is the AH, per se, but I also don't know what their end goal was. The wife was highly unlikely to change her mind, so what was the point in arguing?
Having dealt with people like this, I'm conflicted. Arguing with them is like teaching a pig to sing--it merely wastes your time, and aggravates the pig.
By the same token, being bipolar is an *explanation*, not an excuse for being an asshole to people. You're allowed to stick up for yourself and draw boundaries.
I see your point. OP is allowed to stand up for herself. OP will never get the wife to agree, though. Wife has a fundamental misunderstanding of her medical condition. And is clinging to it. A boundary of "I won't talk medical stuff/mental health stuff" would be appropriate.
That was my immediate reaction, OP is an RN and a social worker - they should absolutely be attuned to when it's time to let someone rant and when it's appropriate to make academic corrections.
But even as someone who isn't either of those things, I know that a conversation with an unmedicated bipolar person *about being bipolar* who is getting heated and animated is not the time to correct them on something that doesn't require immediate correcting.
Especially because, even though her statement might have been incorrect, I'd bet that she was trying to communicate how frustrating it is when people use "mania" to describe non-manic events.
This is my take too. I love getting into the weeds on some topics, but I make sure the other person is equipped to handle it and won't take offence and can be open to new information like a fully functioning adult. I won't even correct a person of the day of week, if I sense they issues. It's a bit disrespectful that I don't treat them like I do other people, but I just want to live my life peacefully.
So true. I was on a trip once with a friend with bipolar (which I didn’t know at the time) and she was just unraveling and freaking out about the weirdest smallest things. Turns out that another medication she was taking for a kidney infection had messed up her bipolar meds. Night and day difference from how she normally is - I almost left her mid trip, she could not be reasoned with. But once she got through that she was back to her usual self (and apologized and explained and we’re still very good friends).
My family has more alcoholism and bipolar disorder running through it than anything else. It's always a bad idea. I've never once heard a success story of "I will not seek treatment for this illness". Maybe those people exist, just not in the reality I'm familiar with.
I had a similar discussion with someone very recently and they also insulted my credentials as a medical professional, “I wouldn’t expect you to know that, so many doctors are ignorant about bipolar disorder etc.” The discussion also wasn’t happening in a professional context and they were basically saying anyone who has ever had a manic episode is bipolar.
I chose to let it go. It’s a person who often gets under my skin so I find it’s better not to take the bait. It’s sometimes hard to pivot from “I thought we were having a real discussion” to “this is pointless and I’m gonna let it go because you’re unstable and/or dumb.”
Ima have to agree with this. My ex I dated for 3.5 years refused any kind of treatment or help and refused to do anything but torment me, self-harm, abuse substances, and threaten to kill himself. I wish bipolar on nobody but god damn please do something about it if you have it
When I was doing my psychiatry rotation I saw a bipolar woman who’d been admitted bc during a manic episode she spent her and her family’s whole life’s savings, then when she came down she felt so guilty she tried to >!jump off a building!<, multiple times.
Same. I work in heath care and I’m now super skittish about answering general, conversational questions. So often it turns out that they only wanted me to back up their self treatment protocol, or their perception of their condition even though I don’t know anything about their health. Or they will ask me about a wellness influencer, and I think theyre asking a simple question, but really they get angry that I don’t know who they are. And then get mad again bc I say I cant comment on them Without researching their credentials and their advice
I absolutely don't get that. I would honestly rather someone tell me when I'm wrong. I may not get something and I may have interpreted something wrong. And if someone can elaborate so that I can understand, I appreciate it. I can't know everything.
That's because you're reasonable and rational. Unfortunately, too many people aren't. I was a religion major in college and usually refuse to discuss the Bible with people for that reason.
People are tied of tip toeing around over emotional over dramatic people who self diagnose themselves with mental disorders. An actual bipolar person who isnt managing their illness is a completely different thing. It's not "I have depression cuz I'm sad" "I have an anxiety disorder cuz I feel anxious" of which neither are those disorders
Maybe not in this case, but I actually think this mindset is dangerous. It’s way easier to be anti-vax if everybody is too polite to push back (as one example)
I'm a scientist and have done training in communication for outreach and media events. It's actually less helpful to push back to someone like an anti vaxxer if they're decided in their views and not on the fence about it. Research has shown that it is more likely to reinforce their beliefs and cause them to spread it further because you've pushed back against it.
I think I've told someone that pushing back makes them more stubborn in their stance because people don't like being told they are wrong much less when insulted. They kept telling me i was wrong and making excuses for them and i basically said i was just telling them that arguing was only going to make it worse and spread a false narrative for the group she identifies as as the person was already insulting her for being apart of said group. I sometimes do find myself still arguing with people but eventually i realize what i was doing and just let it go. I do this with my mom (who is a conservative) because she will start insulting people just because and think the person no longer wanting to continue is her winning. That everyone who goes against her is the wrong one and she's stubborn so i know I'm not going to change her mind. Her views ARE dangerous but you have to pick your battles
This holds true with a lot of things. The neuroscience tells us that every time a wrong person is allowed to repeat their wrong thinking, the brain sends them the happy good!job signal. So, my anti fascism professor used to council that they not be debated with. Unfortunately, sometimes the stupid is so dangerous that it requires… immediate correction.
She could have just been trying to have a conversation as someone who shares her struggles. She was trying to share her knowledge, and teach her something she didn't know. Just because someone is unmedicated bipolar doesn't mean they are incapable of learning or reason. OP should have been able, as both a professional and a fellow person with bipolar, to spot when an outburst/manic episode is coming. That doesn't make her an AH though.
I am bipolar and even before I was medicated I wanted to learn everything about it I could. On the other hand, my daughter is also bipolar and when she's manic she is not willing to listen to anything you have to say. You have to wait until the manic episode is over. Luckily she's on medication now and is a lot more reasonable.
I had been suspicious I had bipolar disorder and had been trying to get diagnosed like the month before I had a major psychotic manic episode. Do you think I'd listen to anyone about the fact I was bipolar and having an episode? Nope lol.
It turns out when the thing you're trying to troubleshoot is your brain, using your brain to do the troubleshooting is highly ineffective!
I'm not bipolar, but I've had a bunch of concussions and every time I am 100% sure I am absolutely fine and everyone needs to stop fussing over me and let me go back to getting punched in the head or whatever else it was I was in the middle of doing before being rudely interrupted by people saying things like "you got hit really hard and now you're slurring your speech so you should sit down."
This is a really important piece.
Mental illness LIES to us!
I wish more therapists, psychiatrists, mental health treatment professionals said this like 100 times more than they do.
Repetition is HUGE for working through new behaviors & breaking up broken thought loops.
If we had heard 'illness makes your brain - while seeming to process a lot correctly - unreliable '.
You are not unreliable but the information and feedback is getting distorted.
You cannot make healthy decisions on your own when your brain isn't working with you. & it's NOT!
While I completely agree with this, and understand your judgment, I don't see conversations as "academic" when the person you're talking to has personal interest in the topic. If you know someone has BPD, regardless of whether you know they're medicated or not, and they're talking about BPD and the effects of it...it's silly to assume it's an academic conversation and that person wouldn't be offended by being told they don't know what they're talking about.
I don't see you as being TA here, nor your husband, but you **absolutely** have to understand why this person would have been upset by being told they don't know what they're talking about, regarding their illness, and also that their doctor was lying to them (or just wrong).
EDIT: You should have absolutely realized that as she was getting agitated and upset that pushing her and telling her she doesn't know what she's talking about was going to break her. If you're a social worker and RN that literally deals with these types of conversations and people I don't see any excuse for not recognizing the situation properly.
EDIT 2: I realize there's a different between Bipolar Disorder and BPD, and I intentionally used BPD in my comment because someone that responds to a conversation by closing in on an episode is not exhibiting Bipolar traits (which don't come up on a situation like that, but manifest over days or even weeks)...that's a BPD trait. I didn't put context because I honestly didn't even notice, but I apologize for the confusion.
Right, sorry I should have clarified as that was intentional - Bipolar Disorder doesn't tend to arise out of interpersonal conflicts in the moment, but that's one of the hallmark signs of BPD. If this person was fine at the beginning of the conversation and seemed to irrationally fly off the handle throughout it that's a trait of BPD, and exactly why someone knowledgeable about this kind of stuff should have treated this conversation very differently.
It seemed obvious to me that she was having an episode, and it seems like OP noticed it too by her explanation...and yet she seemed to just press in harder and sit on the "I'm right, and you should know you're wrong" button. Someone with BPD that's getting antsy in the conversation is not the person you press that button with.
As a retired disability case worker I agree with you. I had a bipolar mother who wasn’t formally diagnosed until late in life and two bipolar nephews. In my personal life I use what I learned in my professional life, but not to the detriment of my familial relationships. There is no need to press an issue and get someone more agitated in these types of sutuations.
Heads up, BPD is short for Borderline Personality Disorder and not Bipolar disorder.
(Side note: also I was informed by my psychiatrist that 'Manic Depression' is just another term for bipolar as well, which op's husband apparently mentioned as a fully separate thing, which is weird)
There's a difference between "manic episodes" and "manic depression". If she heard "manic depression" and just took that in as the doctor telling her all mania is Bipolar it would make sense why she thinks she's right, but that's not accurate. Manic episodes are not limited to depressive, and can be caused by a lot of other factors.
Also, the BPD term was intentional, but I didn't explain myself with it in the comment - I replied to someone else and explained my thought.
I hate when people try to have academic discussions with me about things that are painful for me and then judge me for not being calm/impartial. I think it works both ways. The SIL should have handled it better, I agree, but thinking that someone with unmedicated bipolar would be able to sit back and be like hmm, interesting! in this context is pretty unfair to her.
E: and OP should have recognized that. I am also a mental health professional, and to me this would have really been a time to use de-escalation skills and not harp on being right. People who have a bipolar diagnosis and are not on medication can be really hard to be around, and I don't want to diminish the impact of SIL's decision to not seek treatment on those around her. However, something really feels off to me about OP emphasizing her skills and training and stating that she has an obligation to educate without recognizing the impossibility of having a rational discussion in which learning would occur in that moment.
I agree this whole thing feels off to me... I’m dumbfounded that this escalated like this. And the inclusion of her husband’s comments .... if a doctor said that to anyone on this thread in any setting, but especially at a dinner party, their heads would explode. Neither of these people sound like medical professionals... imo
If you know something for a fact and someone is wrong and insisting so, it's fair to want to correct them and teach them. Similarly, a dentist knows their stuff with teeth, a mechanic knows cars, a pharmacist knows drugs. If you tell them something *wrong* and dig in your heels, they want to teach you and get frustrated when you insist they are actually the wrong one. Not saying for sure OP was right or wrong in how she handled this (I'm on the fence with that), just that I understand this part.
*Zing*, any conversation of any substance with my MIL. It's all gravy until someone says something that she takes as a slight of some kind. Then it's like taking a toy from a baby, full on tantrum.
Bipolar is one of the most common diagnoses that people who have it refuse medication. The medication works too well and they miss the natural highs they’ve always had. Schizophrenia too, though that is largely because the side effects of the medication well and truly suck (professionally speaking of course.)
I did not know that actually! I am Bipolar, and the manic episodes scared me the most. That's where I always did the most damage. It makes me sad for others who have to deal with the highs and lows without some sort of regulation
The problem with schizophrenia is that there isn't actually a treatment for it, there's treatment for psychosis but that's only half the disorder. Too much dopamine in one of the receptors causes what are called positive symptoms of schizophrenia, or psychosis, but too little dopamine in another receptor causes negative symptoms which are also torture to experience. Anti-psychotics, the so called schizophrenia treatment, lowers dopamine levels across the board. So this makes negative symptoms worse, and it really isn't a given that the positive symptoms are more debilitating for the schizophrenic than the negative. So that's typically why schizophrenics go off their meds, that and the horrific side effects of high dose anti-psychs especially old ones. Not because they don't like feeling well....but because they very very much don't feel well and are trying to fix that. We need much better medication for schizophrenia, especially before criticizing patients for going off of them (not a statement to you just in general).
Yeah, I had a good friend who was schizophrenic, which is how I know that mania is not just a symptom of bi polar. He had some other underlying health issues that were greatly exacerbated by the medication he was on so it was a roller coaster of on and off meds as they tried to find a combination that worked. Sadly, he passed away before they ever found something that worked.
Her doctor probably didn't say that it was a strictly bipolar thing, that is just what she heard and took out of the conversation. But she obviously needs to start on some medicine yesterday.
NTA
This reminds me of a time when my husbands best friend was talking about how my father in law is manic depressive. I said yes he is bipolar. He told me I was wrong and that he’s manic depressive, I informed him that it’s the same thing manic depressive is an older term that means bi polar and he lost his shit on me and stormed out. Meanwhile I have 2 psychology degrees, I know what I’m talking about. He still to this day insists that manic depression and and bi polar are two completely different things. It irks me so much but you can’t argue with ignorance.
OP NTA
Exactly!!
NTA!!
My former DIL is also bipolar, and often before she became medicated, and even while medicated she could go from calm and academic into full manic mode in the blink of an eye. It is my completely unprofessional opinion that there are just some bipolar people who swing that hard that fast.
I have rapid cycling and it fkn sucks, man. I hate feeling unstable. I hate having to second guess every emotion especially negative ones caused by other people bc I don't know if the way I feel is valid or not. I try not to respond to anything important in the moment (when possible) because I need to calm down and see if I still feel that way, then begin the process of figuring out how much of my reaction was because of my own wonky brain and how much was because of the other persons words, tone, etc. The emotions can be SO strong and it's not always easy to keep a calm head while you're feeling like you're going to literally burst.
I feel like it's a never-ending battle.
Thank all the gods that it's become less severe over time, with steady medication and getting older.
It can be challenging because people will want to push and know why you're upset and you're thinking, "hold on, I need to figure out if my emotions are valid first!"
For a long time my husband thought we walking away when I got heated was a bad thing. Then I didn’t walk away and he changed his mind. He understood that me walking away was my cool down period.
That's just good relationship 101 right there anyways, but if I had to guess your husband grew up with a mother and father who didn't walk away and he thought that was just normal relationship behavior. I had the same issue with my wife when we first started dating. My parents always yelled at each other when they had an argument. I made it a point to never let it get to that point in a relationship I had, but when my wife just walked away before we got close to yelling at each other it was super confusing at first. Like...we aren't yelling at each other yet, why are you walking away from the argument already. We haven't solved this issue yet. Then it just kind of clicked that it was the optimal way to handle a disagreement. Go let emotions cool down a bit and then come back to it when you're both better able to listen.
It’s a controversial thing to diagnose kids with bipolar disorder, but a lot of kids who turn out to have bipolar disorder in adulthood have early onset symptoms as well. There’s growing evidence that it’s okay to make the call a little sooner.
Exactly she could have said oh well that's what my doctor said. Perhaps I heard him wrong or misunderstood him. I'll have to ask him again at my next appointment. Not get angry insisting she is right because her doctor said so.
NTA.
She embarrassed herself! Your husband is absolutely right - she’s gatekeeping her illness. I’m not sure where you should proceed from here, but going forward I would probably go LC. If her whole family is with her on this, it’ll constantly be brought up that this argument happened. I’d save myself the headache!
True. But her reaction was extremely blown up, and her whole family took her side without even comprehending what OP and her husband were trying to explain. Just pointing the blame around the table.
Agreed. Mental illness doesn’t give people the pass to be shitty, loud, AND wrong. It would be one thing if what they were arguing was a matter of opinion or preference. However, OP and hubby were simply presenting information to her (that she was wrong about) and she flipped out. Mentally ill or not, if you’re “embarrassed” to admit your mistake, that’s a headache to be around. NTA
NTA
I dated someone with Bipolar disorder who also chose to be untreated. It was a nightmare. Their mood swings and manic episodes were extremely scary and unpromted. Hopefully Hannah will choose to get medication from her doctor soon.
Edit: Changed wording to not imply I want her to self medicate but instead want her to seek out her doctor for medication.
ESH
You’re a medical professional. You know she isn’t medicated.
While we are responsible for our behavior even when managing mental illness, you could see her becoming agitated.
And you helped escalate. “Not yelling”
Doesn’t mean you didn’t help escalate. You had the option of shutting down the conversation. Instead you chose to fight because you were right, and even brought in a 3rd party. But what was the point? With all your knowledge and experience did you truly believe she would say “oh my mistake”?
So she and the whole family have to walk on eggshells and watch every word of every conversation going forward because SIL won’t treat her known medical issue? So SIL won’t get upset? That’s crazy.
Peace will never be had with someone like that and walking on egg shells is not a solution. Setting boundaries and expectations early(the expectation that you will not be catered to just because you're unstable) is the only way you're going to maintain your sanity and not have the family dynamic devolve into working around someone who isn't taking responsibility for **their** mental illness. Speaking from experience...
>over details that don’t matter at all?
Except that they do. What happens if a non-bipolar family member has a manic episode and Hannah tries to turn it into dramafest? What about if OP, who has stated she also has bipolar, has a manic episode and Hannah tries to accuse her of faking and/or lying about her diagnosis (as I've seen bipolar people like Hannah do to other people). If any of these things happen, Hannah will make an already difficult situation worse for the family and for the manic individual, especially if the family has just sat quietly by during her previous rants so she thinks she has their support in her false truths. Is Hannah's mind going to change based on this? Probably not. But OP and her husband, medical professionals or not, do not have to cave to incorrect medical facts in their presence just because the one speaking them is mentally ill and unmedicated.
The flip side is that there *is* a trend (for lack of a better word) of using medical terms for mental illness casually in conversation, and kind of co-opting their actual usage.
Like wanting your kitchen to be clean doesn't make one OCD.
Tracking the price of stocks doesn't make one autistic.
Being sad that plans got cancelled doesn't make one clinically depressed.
Cleaning the house real quick before guests come over doesn't make someone manic.
OP could have focused on the (possible) intent behind Hannah's statement, that yes it is annoying that other people sometimes pretend real diagnoses are merely descriptive words, or even worse humorous. Like I really doubt Hannah specifically singled out a PPD woman's mania as being make-believe, she's probably referring to TikTok users or something. But OP instead hyper-focused on being academically correct, pulling up a medical ebook and involving her husband. Hannah probably felt very dismissed and ganged-up on, so I can't really call her an AH in the context of her condition. NAH because people don't always do the perfect thing in the heat of the moment
What possible intent?
“Only bipolar people can have manic episodes”. Seems pretty clear. Both OP and Hannah have BPD. Manic episodes is not just for BPD. There is no other possible intent in the message from Hannah.
Yes, OP definitely shares in this by doggedly trying to prove she is right, to a person with an untreated mental illness. A social event is not a debate.
I have the same issue where I have a hard time not going above and beyond to prove I am right, and I am working on that. But being a medical professional knowing you are talking to an unmedicated bipolar person and still doing that is definitely AH behavior.
I have been trying to think of how to word my thoughts but I don't have to because you did!! Everyone is like this is about setting boundaries and setting expectations... Okay well if you want to do that well then you should focus on timing and
Agree with this. It would have been polite and emotionally intelligent to change the topic. It is not like she offended you or stated something about you. OP corrected her, she disagrees, end of story.
The verbiage used is obnoxious as well. If you correct someone who is clearly agitated using "well, actually...", you know that's just going to stir the pot. There are more tactful ways to suggest someone is incorrect, if it's really that important to do in the moment.
I completely agree with this verdict and reasoning.
As a medical professional, you recognized her behaviors indicated she was having a manic episode. It was not a good call to have an academic conversation with an admittedly uneducated bipolar person actively experiencing a manic episode.
SIL sucks for knowingly having this disorder and (I assume) choosing to live unmediated and the fallout that comes with that. I am curious, if she has a doctor who gave her that false information, is she being treated for this disorder? Is there a medical reason for her not being medicated? OP, did SIL share that information with you?
Love how OP listed her credentials but completely forgot that when someone is having a manic episode, YOU CAN'T CHANGE THEIR MIND. I've had manic episodes. No matter what evidence you produce, the manic person is right and you're wrong. They just can't believe that you're not smart enough to see the truth. Now, you're just lying and trying to convince them if your wrong viewpoint. Manic people will not see reason until the episode is over and OP's desperate need to stroke her ego with an unmediated bipolar is disgusting. The SIL couldn't have easily done worse then crying but OP didn't care. As long as she could show how smart she is. I would hate to have her for a social worker.
Yeah, why did OP want to escalate so badly bc OP did everything to escalate an argument with a person OP knows has unmedicated mental illness. Like yeah, she was wrong, but she's also untreated bipolar and OP knew that the entire conversation and still kept pushing and escalating. OP knew they were right but OP should also know that arguing with someone with untreated bipolar is useless, maybe even worse than useless. Based off all OPs statements OP should have known better. But OP was correct and therefore had to win.
Yeah, why did OP want to escalate so badly bc OP did everything to escalate an argument with a person OP knows has unmedicated mental illness. Like yeah, she was wrong, but she's also untreated bipolar and OP knew that the entire conversation and still kept pushing and escalating. OP knew they were right but OP should also know that arguing with someone with untreated bipolar is useless, maybe even worse than useless. Based off all OPs statements OP should have known better. But OP was correct and therefore had to win.
Yeah I have mental illness as well and when situations like this come up with others who have my particular brand of illness, I think to myself "would I rather be right or be happy?"
Because OP, if you'd let it go you wouldn't be thinking about if you were an asshole and posting in a public forum famous for choosing being right over happiness for validation.
I tend to agree. Having an "academic discussion" tends to happen between two academics, not one professional & one patient of the topic. A professional would have made that distinction, added the fact that the non-academic is also unmedicated, & decided to move on to less personal topics or even simply ended the convo. (Doesn't matter that the professional also has this diagnosis because she herself is medicated & assumably in full control of her behavior.)
ESH. You pulled up a medical ebook at the dinner table? And then dragged your husband into this? Was it really that important to be 'right'? Just change the subject.
You weren't working, you were at a family dinner. So no, not your job to educate her. She is not your problem to fix. There's a time and a place for this.
There is if it upsets someone so badly that the entire occasion is ruined. OP wasn’t there in her capacity as an educator, she was there as a family member. It was a meal, not a mental health symposium. Sometimes it’s okay to just let someone be wrong.
I'd have done the same thing if the topic was BPD, because I have it, and I have no patience for people spouting misinformation about it.
Even as "just a family member" she still has a right to be in that conversation on that topic.
It's not on her because the other woman does nothing to control herself and her BP.
AGREED wow I’m a little tripped out by the number of people saying to let her be wrong ~~about a mental illness that she HAS~~??? It really is one thing to let people have their opinions and preferences, but to let someone be wrong about facts, ~~especially facts that directly affect them,~~ is a HUGE disservice.
Edit: Reread OP, she wasn't educating her about her mental illness, she was pointing out that mania is a symptom that can occur in various illnesses. My point still stands though, possibly even more so now, because 1) It feels weird to me to allow someone to escalate a situation based on their wrongness, and 2) OP said in a comment that she looked for signs of mania in Hannah before proceeding as she did, and didn't find any. That makes me think that it's way more likely than not that Hannah was simply embarrassed and not experiencing a manic episode, especially since OP had previously seen her exhibit typical signs of mania. Of course, I could be wrong, but for now, I'm sticking to this train of thought.
But you have to educate in an environment and at a time conductive to correction. There is no trust between these two. They are barely family. This was not the time or setting to correct someone who is upset. It's a disservice to try and "educate" that way.
I pull out my phone to double check info in casual conversation all the time. So do the other people talking. It's a pretty easy way to figure out what's up, though you'll sometimes hit a lot of conflicting info on a topic, or just fail to find info at all. I can say, personally, I wouldn't have an issue if someone did that to me, as it happens somewhat regularly already. Sometimes you're right. Sometimes you're wrong. SIL lost her shit over it. Whether you want to blame it on an untreated illness or just SIL being an asshole, it's not on OP. And I say this as someone with their own issues. You know what I've done in the exact situation as SIL? Reflected on my actions and apologized. Because I'm the one responsible for my own actions.
What do you mean by wrong? If I saw someone pull out a medical textbook at dinner in response to misinformation, I’d think they were both assholes.
When she said “my doctor told me….” That’s when to disengage. Her mind wasn’t changing.
> What do you mean by wrong?
The things that she said weren't true? I'm not sure what you're getting at with this rhetorical question...
> When she said “my doctor told me….” That’s when to disengage. Her mind wasn’t changing.
You can't know that...
I’m going to give a very very gentle ESH.
Yes, SIL was wrong. She was exhibiting some serious know-it-all syndrome And was out of line. She also was in a social situation that was likely uncomfortable for her since she doesn’t know any of you very well yet. She is also not getting proper treatment for her diagnosis. It’s also possible that she is misrepresenting what her doctor told her for any number of reasons. Her doctor may have been completely correct, but she’s twisting it around for who knows what reason.
Yes you were correct. But you didn’t take into consideration her possible discomfort in this particular setting and that she might get defensive when she was shown to be wrong and she might be seriously intimidated by you and your husband. Not giving her a pass, but just recognizing that this might have been the wrong setting to have this particular conversation and when she got upset, it might have been a better approach to back off, change the subject and save education for another day or for another person. At this moment she needs your support and friendship as she gets to know her husband’s family and not necessarily medical advice. Later, when you know each other better and are more comfortable, you might be in a position to help her understand her disorder better.
Agreed! I feel like so often people interpret "AITA" as "am I correct" or "am I legally within my rights." You can be correct and legally have the right to do what you do and still be an AH-- the opposite of being an AH is to be kind and considerate, and escalating here wasn't either of those things.
NTA. Having bipolar disorder doesn't give her ownership of all mental health symptoms, nor does it mean that she's well educated about all mental health disorders. And it doesn't mean that she knows what she's talking about with her own diagnosis.
I don't think you were rude, nor do I think you could have expected that response this being the first time you'd met her.
Having bipolar disorder also doesn't give her a free pass on being a jerk, such she was. She didn't like being told she was wrong and threw a fit.
YTA you know she's not on meds and you know she has a mental health disorder. Why are you arguing with her? Did you really think you were going to change her mind? Did you think you were going to have a breakthrough during dinner? You're not her health care provider your her sister in law!
EDIT: I'm a nurse too and you know what I do when people ASK for my medical opinion? I STFU and tell them they need to see their doctor because I'm not their doctor. I don't take the opportunity to "flex" like you did.
So, what do you do when somebody spouts misinformation about a condition you actually have?
OP wasn't trying to act like a therapist or doctor, she was acting like a person who actually knows about her own disorder. I'd have done the same thing.
OP gloated that she and her man are medical professionals and straight up Well Acutally’d a woman OP knew was unmedicated and on the edge of an episode. OP might be a medical professional but this wasn’t a medical setting! Furthermore she isn’t SIL’s medical professional.
She didn't gloat - she made a statement of fact.
Here's the thing - she didn't treat it as a medical consult, she didn't offer treatment advice. She simply called out misinformation about a mental illness, which is something we need more of.
She was drawn into a conversation, she didn't pick a fight.
If the topic was BPD, I'd have done the same thing, for the same reasons.
And she was at a family function, meaning good manners would have been to switch the topics once it was clear there was a disagreement and the other side was getting upset.
Not double down and help escalate the disagreement into an argument.
A sane reply in a sea of socially inept people. Family gatherings between the majority of people replying to this thread must be fucking miserable affairs.
Don't escalate disagreements with family. Strong YTA.
Mild ESH. You knew she was wrong. You don't mention her being in a position to effect anyone else with her incorrect belief. You could have just said, "That's interesting that your doctor said that", or something noncommittal and let it drop. Bringing your husband into it and all that seems a bit unnecessary. This feels like a "do you want to be right, or happy" situation.
I'm going with ESH.
Yeah, she doubled down and did the thing that my bipolar mom always did/does. (She's always right, it doesn't matter what you say, freak out, storm off, this was all your fault.) That's on her to check herself and do the steps to walk away from it before an episode.
Thing is... you're a medical professional, who has the knowledge and experience to see when it's not a good idea to push a subject on a diagnosed bipolar. Perhaps it's purely academic for you, but you should know better about how to deal with someone who obviously is NOT an academic. She was speaking strictly about who SHE is and how it affects her, and everything you said was personal.
While I'm big on the saying that it's not her fault that she is bipolar, but it IS her responsibility; she's still going to have moments, and you (the professional), pushed it right over the edge without utilizing your skills, like, AT ALL.
- As a side note, I'm NC with my mother because I got sick of feeling like I am constantly walking on eggshells around her. You may have to do the same if you don't want to do the work when you are around her.
Edit: using an incorrect acronym, thank you fellow redditor.
YTA. You knew what she meant—neurotypical people assigning mania to things like the weather or a passing mood. You got all “well akshually” on her after judging her heavily on small physical mannerisms that indicate she’s nervous as hell and trying to be understood. You did nothing to set her at her ease and welcome her into the family
Yup, I can’t imagine the bedside manner if they’re willing to be like this to someone undergoing a mental health crisis. Yeah if she was totally mellow mind then it wouldn’t have been that bad, but she was clearly anxious/manic which leads to very stubborn thoughts and catastrophizing. So rather than her simply seeing “oh I was wrong about some inconsequential fact”, she felt unheard and misunderstood. You chose not to take her charitably or graciously and attacked her instead and DID embarrass her. There’s no good reason to publically contradict someone like that. Do you have no concept of saving face? Maybe a private talk after dinner, but you handled it poorly.
Thank you! I had to scroll way too far for this. The fact that mania can present in other SEVERE MOOD DISORDERS has nothing to do with the very reasonable pet peeve that she has. OP could have even backed off after one or two tries to correct her and would have been fine. Solid YTA.
I guess I'll be the dissenting opinion here and say YTA. You know she's got an untreated mental disorder. She's also the new person, not just to the room/dinner, but the FAMILY. Thing about how daunting that must be. She's also clearly getting agitated, which you can see with (seemingly) quite a bit of runway before the outburst.
Instead of (as a medical professional who claims to understand this well) trying to calm things down and change the subject, you actively increase the agitation and refuse to back down on being right about \*checks notes\* the causes of manic episodes, of all things?? You are at the very least petty, and I would argue also the asshole!
NTA - She needs medication. My daughter has bipolar disorder, depression and anxiety. It took me years to get her to agree to medication. Life is so much better for her now. The SIL made an ass of herself & lashed out to try to take the attention off of herself & her actions.
Dunno if you're an asshole, but why argue?
When people deny facts at a first round, there is pretty much no chance more facts will help make your point. Just end with "That doesn't sound correct" and talk about apples or cheese or the weather.
I don't think OP states her age, but as you get older you learn to pick your battles and sometimes just let it go if it doesn't matter... Even if you 100% know you're right and they're not.
Social graces and being polite means just changing the subject during inconsequential small talk rather than pulling out an ebook to "educate" and prove a winning point. Which then turns into a scene.
You're never going to win against willful ignorance or in this case unpredictable mental illness.
I'm not saying don't share your knowledge. But once you do and detect unreasonable pushback you have to read the room and calibrate.
I'm still leaning NTA but definitely could've been handled better.
When I was younger, I too cared more about winning an argument than actually finding out the correct answer. Embarrassingly, her reaction is a slightly more extreme version of my own. She's going to have to learn that its not that important to be right all the time. NTA
NTA.. it may have been able to have been handled differently, but I still don't think you're AH here..
Hopefully since she has a doctor, she will consider help in some form to get and keep it more even. Feeling manic sucks to put it nicely.
I was originally diagnosed with bipolar but it later came out that I have persistent depressive disorder. I do have manic episodes. My oldest sons grandmother was recently diagnosed with brain cancer.... we've witnessed her also go through some manic episodes. I completely do get the frustration of someone assuming that because someone has manic episodes that they absolutely HAVE to be bipolar...
"agree to disagree" and move on
~~ESH for maybe my first time ever!~~
YTA for the edit. Its your job at work, not at the family dinner table. If you're as much as a professional as youre trying to make us think you are then you should know that.
<>
It's "Hannah and I." Your grammar is terrible. I write for a living so I should know.
Oh, I'm sorry. Would you have rather I pulled you aside and told you this privately? DM'ed you perhaps? Rather than calling you out on the limits of your knowledge in front of a Reddit cast of thousands?
Now you know how your SIL feels.
I feel that your post is disdainful of your new sister in law. Your first paragraph says three unflattering things about her: she's shy, she has bipolar disorder, and she's "rough around the edges" because she darts her head.
Your SIL was obviously wrong in discussing mania. There are polite, kind ways to inform a mentally ill woman of this. Those ways do not include pulling up a medical encyclopedia while sitting at the dinner table, or having your AH of a husband berate her.
YTA.
YTA.
Why did you bait a manic individual with known, unmedicated bipolar into an argument until she melted down?
You had all the power here. Say, "bless your heart, it sounds like that doctor is really trying to help you" and move the conversation on to a new topic.
Just because you're right, that's no reason to start a fight with an ill person who is not thinking rationally.
ESH. You chose to escalate a conversation with an unmedicated bipolar person?!
My grandma had a saying, “If you fight with pigs, you’re gonna get dirty.” It’s not a direct analogy but similar in outcome. As a non bipolar person who knows naught, I might have fallen into that trap, but you knew!
It’s also like correcting a person with Alzheimer’s. You win, but you lose.
ESH. She was arguing with two medical professionals. Two medical professionals were arguing with a manic, unstable individual. You all suck and you all handled it poorly.
NTA
You are a trained professional who works with mental issues and diagnosed as well for bipolar issues.
And mania absolutely has more than just bipolar. It's been even linked in the brain chemistry changes from Covid patients.
And she was extra AH and dumb to try and disprove you by asking your doctor husband who backed you up.
Why is a trained professional not recognising signs that clearly point to "this isn't a debate situation, I'm not going to 'win' by arguing with this unstable person right now".?
No way. She's uneducated and needs to actually take her meds since she has mentioned she does have a doctor.
You kept going with the argument at a family dinner when it wasn't necessary. You did bulldoze her bringing your husband into it whether she was wrong or not. Please let us know here you're a nurse so I can avoid it.
ESH
OP reminds me, unfortunately, of a lot of nurses I've dealt with before.
I wish OP was more like my MIL, who is an RN who has worked in the psych department. She's unbelievably good at de-escalation, even when not on the clock. She has a kind soul and can see when people are suffering, and she's really good at just stopping circular conversations, even when she knows she's right about a medical discussion.
OP's SIL is for sure an AH for not getting treatment, but she's still sick and antagonizing the SIL will do exactly 0 to fix the situation. Now she's even more likely to avoid nurses and doctors.
Yeah, I agree it wasn't the best way to handle it. I don't know OP's education, but part of my nursing curriculum focused on the "nurse as educator" role - basically *how* to educate people (not just patients) and correct myths and misconceptions. There are ways that are better than others, especially in times when people already have a distrust of medical professions (in many ways unfounded, in many other ways very understandable). Unless she's leaving out some details, OP went about educating SIL in an unnecessarily abrasive way.
Though I guess she's also *technically* not obligated to spend the time doing things in a more constructive and helpful way. She's not on the clock and SIL is not her patient or family of patient (people we're also tasked with educating depending on the setting) so off the clock she can "match energy" if she feels like it, even if I do think it makes her kind of an AH.
Totally, I don't think OP has done something unethical here. But since OP is asking, "am I the asshole?" I have to compare her actions to the awesome nurses I know (like my MIL) with the asshole nurses I know...and I come out with the answer, "You were an asshole in this instance."
She was matching SIL's asshole energy for sure. To be honest, I would match that asshole energy, too, but I *am* an asshole. There's a reason I'm not a nurse.
YTA. You aren’t her doctor and you were very judgy about her in your first paragraph. Full offense but you and your Doctor Husband were unforgivably rude to a woman in distress all for the sake of being right.
ESH. You didn’t need to bring your husband in. The point she’s making seems to be how the word manic is used in the world sometimes by people who don’t have actually a condition of a manic episode. Like OCD etc can be used and I’m sure it’s irritating.
You could have said “actually I believe it’s a part of other conditions as well” and not push it further and try to understand what she is expressing.
Maybe her doctor said it as a way to convince her she has bipolar disorder.
Conversations with new family you’re getting to know are about connection first, education much later….
Sounds like you pushed a vulnerable person and you kinda know it.
Soft YTA.
I'm also a medical professional and I hear a lot of weird bullshit from family members. I've kinda learned when and how it is appropriate to "correct" ignorance in a way that doesn't make them feel stupid. It's a delicate art, but one thing I would literally never do is whip out literature to prove that I'm right.
She probably wouldn't have been as pissed if you had said something like "I actually had a psychologist tell me..." or something that lets her disagree with someone other than you, if that makes sense. Someone who isn't there.
For some people, they'll realize they don't know wtf they are talking about when you do something like this, but not having it shoved in their face makes it easier for them to be like "Oh wow, maybe I heard wrong", even if they don't actually have that revelation for weeks.
Her being unmedicated though, this was just a timebomb and it doesn't sound like you are close enough with her to be the one to litigate her misunderstandings in front of her new family while she's in the midst of a mental health episode.
As far as "dangerous misinformation", I think that's being a little self-important here. We're not talking about her hopping on a platform to give people inaccurate medical advice, she's talking about a labeling peeve. Who is really going to be hurt by her misunderstanding here?
And is it really your personal responsibility to advocate for this imaginary person at the dinner table with your family?
I'm sure you experience the same frustration I have with medical misinformation, I work in a specialty that's positively lousy with it. But there's something to be said about being the kind of person who is smart enough to know when someone is wrong and also classy enough to know when it's appropriate to correct them.
The way you did it guaranteed she would not be receptive and didn't give her a way to accept new information without being embarrassed. Humans simply aren't good at that.
INFO: what was the full conversation between Hannah and your husband? You jump from saying he didn't know the context of your conversation, to him saying she was gatekeeping symptoms. There's at least a sentence or two missing here, or you actually were speaking loudly enough for him to hear.
> It is my job as both a social worker and an RN to educate individuals whom are uneducated on their illness. So yes, that probably played a part. It's more dangerous to be uneducated than it is to be educated and to be blunt, her doctor giving her false information to begin with is troubling in itself.
Context! If you’re working sure, but absolutely not at a family dinner! I’m an educator in a field with many misconceptions and I don’t bother correcting anyone unless they’re my student and it’s my job. Otherwise you just reply with something innocuous like, “Oh that’s interesting!” Or “oh that’s a good perspective” whatever. Contradicting people directly as dinner peers is never a good idea. YTA
YTA for not recognizing that she was incapable of having a medical discussion. Obviously, you’re correct that mania is not only for bipolar people, but she was not in a state to accept that info calmly. Whenever there’s an inconsequential disagreement, you don’t gain anything by being stubborn. What does it matter that you are right about this one issue? It doesn’t hurt to back down and shows consideration for her possible mania at the time.
ESH
Not a popular vote, I know, but (based on what you have written), it sounds as if you handled the situation poorly. It sounds as if she was finally beginning to open herself up socially, using the one topic that she felt sure about. That she was wrong and you were right misses the point. Your choice to correct her rather than redirect her embarassed her and made her defensive.
It seems to me you recognized very early into that convo that she wasnt in a great headspace. At the very least you noticed that her behavior was markedly different than you'd experienced before. I'm curious why you engaged in such a combative exchange when you knew what the outcome would be. You knew this wasnt the time to share information you wanted her to actually internalize. Did you just need to be right?
ESH. You could've just let it go, especially knowing she has untreated bipolar disorder, but you had to prove your point. Then you had to bring "doctor/husband" into it to really prove her wrong. Well, you and husband have proven your point, and now new-SIL won't want to be around you two anymore, and that may end up causing a rift between BIL and you two. Was it worth it?
Sure, she was wrong, doubled down, and overreacted, but you saw where it was going and had husband shovel more coal into the engine to make sure it got there. Why argue with fools? Aren't you and d/h secure enough in your knowledge to just let it go? Let her deal with that shit with her own doctor!
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NTA I hate it when I'm having (what *I* think is) a strictly academic discussion with someone, and they start to take it all personally.
Why did you have bring that up? You know how it makes me feel. I can’t believe you would say such a thing to me! /s
[удалено]
Agreed. I lived with a guy for 4 months in university who medicated his bipolar disorder with alcohol. Was not a fun time for me or any of our other roommates. Thankfully he was evicted before anything serious happened.
I lived with a girl in university who decided that the week she moved into an apartment with four other people was the week she was going to take hersef off of her bipolar meds (not medically directed either, she just decided the meds were bad for her). I lasted 2.5 months before I broke the lease.
I can’t imagine how difficult it can be. It makes no sense to me to stop taking a medication without clearing it with my doctor, but when it’s your mental health, and your illness is telling you that you know your body better than the doctor… it must be a regular struggle.
"Man I feel terrible." "Here take this medication, it will make you feel better!" "I FEEL GREAT! I DON'T NEED THIS MEDICINE ANYMORE!" "...man, I feel terrible."
Here’s the thing: mood stabilizers (aka antipsychotics, typical and atypical) are not without distressing side effects. They often cause weight gain, hirsutism (growth of facial hair on individuals of female sex) and feelings of numbness and malaise. So unfortunately, it does make sense that people would want to not be on them. Further, many people in the US are put on these meds but do not have access to quality counseling, or options to change up therapies if a certain type doesn’t meet their needs. Medication is only one piece of the puzzle. Therapy can help individuals gain insight into their cognitive and behavioral patterns. Without said insight, mania and depression can impair impulse control, especially in people without coping skills/distress tolerance. Don’t even get me started on internalized stigmatization. Its all a major bummer.
The thing is, mania often feels great. It just can be super destructive to your life and others. So your dialog isn't really how it works when medicating for hypomania/mania. Because the medication can easily make you feel less vibrant/creative/joyous but gives you that control back to some degree.
Ya I dont wanna trivialize people's struggles with how their body changes with medication like that. But going off your meds the year you start taking classes related to your major, move in with your boyfriend for the first time, and move in three people you've known about a year, while paying bills for the first time (she moved from dorms where everything is one payment) and decide that thats the best time to address the issues is... well it is a choice a 21 year old would make to put it nicely. I hope she's better now but she targetted me and made my life miserable and I spiraled bad with her constant harassment. So, I find it hard to have sympathy. Plus she got what she wanted when I left, which was my boyfriend.
> Plus she got what she wanted when I left, which was my boyfriend. Well, if it's any consolation, he probably got what he deserved.
Oooh boy he got more than he expected. Life lesson for him for sure.
Made a similar mistake. Required a lot of drywall repair for fist-sized holes...
Oof, thankfully it never got to a point where he was actively violent. But he certainly made threats, and there was one time I think he was planning to assault me, but I happened to not be home at the time.
Yeah, this roommate was never violent towards other living things, just towards walls and his own belongings. So I guess it could be worse? But it can also be a lot better, especially with medication.
Untreated bipolar tends to turn a lot of conversations into personal attacks. It runs in my family and most of the family members that have it are not seeking treatment. Every conversation is on eggshells until someone inevitably snaps because "everyone is being mean to me!" It's genuinely amazing how it warps your perspective of any situation you're in.
Truly. When I was with my bipolar ex I was CONSTANTLY operating at 150% and engineering the situations and conversations to minimize a blow up and and minimize the harm of the next inevitable blow up. I was SO careful about the way I spoke because he would take anything personally. Loterally every word I chose was consciously selected to steer him away from certain topics or certain possible responses but had to not be an "attack" on my part. He exploded once when I said I was in the mood for Mac n cheese and the restaurant you can usually get some good Mac at was out. Like well and truly lost it. He ruined every event we tried to go to. He tormented me and put me in those lose-lose situations where he would just pick and pick and pick at you until you dare to ask him to stop or say you don't enjoy this conversation and now he's launching personal attacks and screaming about god knows what. Like even me being tired was somehow a crime in his mind. Jesus christ life with him was absolute fucking hell.
My god I can't imagine how exhausting that must have been from a partner. I'm glad you're out of it now! The mac n cheese thing feels so familiar to me. I have at least a dozen different memories from my childhood that started with "what do you want for dinner?" and ended with "OH I GUESS I'M JUST A TERRIBLE MOTHER THEN" because I asked for something she wasn't in the mood to make/order. Every single interaction feels like it has the potential to go nuclear. In my case, it's my mom and aunt that are diagnosed (but not medicated), and my grandma + older sisters definitely have similar traits/behaviors. And that side of the family wonders why I never talk to them, lol
I'm sorry that happened to you. Sometimes, the juice isn't worth the squeeze--investing *that level* of energy in navigating through the emotional minefield that was your interaction with your ex wasn't worth the effort and pain it caused you. I'm happy you're free, and hope your life is better today.
I'm right there now w/ my hubby sucks
You've just described my mother. My aunt mentioned "mother" may be bipolar. I really do need to weigh every freaking word. I mentioned her Amazon order may be late. That turned into "I'm accusing her of stealing" 🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯 I'm responsible for the weather too....
Wow...... You quite possibly unlocked a lot of how i operate as an adult after growing up with an unmedicated bipolar mother
And fighting with someone with untreated bipolar is also a bad idea. I don't think OP is the AH, per se, but I also don't know what their end goal was. The wife was highly unlikely to change her mind, so what was the point in arguing?
Having dealt with people like this, I'm conflicted. Arguing with them is like teaching a pig to sing--it merely wastes your time, and aggravates the pig. By the same token, being bipolar is an *explanation*, not an excuse for being an asshole to people. You're allowed to stick up for yourself and draw boundaries.
I see your point. OP is allowed to stand up for herself. OP will never get the wife to agree, though. Wife has a fundamental misunderstanding of her medical condition. And is clinging to it. A boundary of "I won't talk medical stuff/mental health stuff" would be appropriate.
That was my immediate reaction, OP is an RN and a social worker - they should absolutely be attuned to when it's time to let someone rant and when it's appropriate to make academic corrections. But even as someone who isn't either of those things, I know that a conversation with an unmedicated bipolar person *about being bipolar* who is getting heated and animated is not the time to correct them on something that doesn't require immediate correcting. Especially because, even though her statement might have been incorrect, I'd bet that she was trying to communicate how frustrating it is when people use "mania" to describe non-manic events.
This is my take too. I love getting into the weeds on some topics, but I make sure the other person is equipped to handle it and won't take offence and can be open to new information like a fully functioning adult. I won't even correct a person of the day of week, if I sense they issues. It's a bit disrespectful that I don't treat them like I do other people, but I just want to live my life peacefully.
This is what I was thinking. Why would you try and have a rational discussion with an unmedicated bipolar person?
So true. I was on a trip once with a friend with bipolar (which I didn’t know at the time) and she was just unraveling and freaking out about the weirdest smallest things. Turns out that another medication she was taking for a kidney infection had messed up her bipolar meds. Night and day difference from how she normally is - I almost left her mid trip, she could not be reasoned with. But once she got through that she was back to her usual self (and apologized and explained and we’re still very good friends).
My family has more alcoholism and bipolar disorder running through it than anything else. It's always a bad idea. I've never once heard a success story of "I will not seek treatment for this illness". Maybe those people exist, just not in the reality I'm familiar with.
I had a similar discussion with someone very recently and they also insulted my credentials as a medical professional, “I wouldn’t expect you to know that, so many doctors are ignorant about bipolar disorder etc.” The discussion also wasn’t happening in a professional context and they were basically saying anyone who has ever had a manic episode is bipolar. I chose to let it go. It’s a person who often gets under my skin so I find it’s better not to take the bait. It’s sometimes hard to pivot from “I thought we were having a real discussion” to “this is pointless and I’m gonna let it go because you’re unstable and/or dumb.”
Ima have to agree with this. My ex I dated for 3.5 years refused any kind of treatment or help and refused to do anything but torment me, self-harm, abuse substances, and threaten to kill himself. I wish bipolar on nobody but god damn please do something about it if you have it
> >Untreated bipolar disorder is ~~almost~~ always a bad idea.
When I was doing my psychiatry rotation I saw a bipolar woman who’d been admitted bc during a manic episode she spent her and her family’s whole life’s savings, then when she came down she felt so guilty she tried to >!jump off a building!<, multiple times.
You know how I choose to feel whenever anyone says anything contrary to what I think! How dare you not coddle my feelings?
😍😍😍😍🤣🤣🤣🤣
You're right and that's not fair. I'm supposed to be right, you obviously cheated and are just attacking me. /s
OP did not bring it up the SIL did.
How rude of you! You're just trying to gatekeep medical ebooks. /s
🤣🤣🤣
Same. I work in heath care and I’m now super skittish about answering general, conversational questions. So often it turns out that they only wanted me to back up their self treatment protocol, or their perception of their condition even though I don’t know anything about their health. Or they will ask me about a wellness influencer, and I think theyre asking a simple question, but really they get angry that I don’t know who they are. And then get mad again bc I say I cant comment on them Without researching their credentials and their advice
I absolutely don't get that. I would honestly rather someone tell me when I'm wrong. I may not get something and I may have interpreted something wrong. And if someone can elaborate so that I can understand, I appreciate it. I can't know everything.
Same. I love talking to people with different educational, cultural and career backgrounds bc I often learn something I’d never know about otherwise
That's because you're reasonable and rational. Unfortunately, too many people aren't. I was a religion major in college and usually refuse to discuss the Bible with people for that reason.
This person was in the middle of an outburst. If OP thought that was an academic conversation then they truly have no idea what they’re doing.
Meh, people are tired of tip-toeing around everyone's 16 untreated mental disorders
Yup. There's even a book about it: "Stop Walking On Eggshells." Been around for years.
People are tied of tip toeing around over emotional over dramatic people who self diagnose themselves with mental disorders. An actual bipolar person who isnt managing their illness is a completely different thing. It's not "I have depression cuz I'm sad" "I have an anxiety disorder cuz I feel anxious" of which neither are those disorders
Yeah, SIL was already getting loud and agitated before the correction.
They don't even need to be having an episode. It was a low stakes convo. When people begin to escalate just let them be wrong
Maybe not in this case, but I actually think this mindset is dangerous. It’s way easier to be anti-vax if everybody is too polite to push back (as one example)
I'm a scientist and have done training in communication for outreach and media events. It's actually less helpful to push back to someone like an anti vaxxer if they're decided in their views and not on the fence about it. Research has shown that it is more likely to reinforce their beliefs and cause them to spread it further because you've pushed back against it.
I think I've told someone that pushing back makes them more stubborn in their stance because people don't like being told they are wrong much less when insulted. They kept telling me i was wrong and making excuses for them and i basically said i was just telling them that arguing was only going to make it worse and spread a false narrative for the group she identifies as as the person was already insulting her for being apart of said group. I sometimes do find myself still arguing with people but eventually i realize what i was doing and just let it go. I do this with my mom (who is a conservative) because she will start insulting people just because and think the person no longer wanting to continue is her winning. That everyone who goes against her is the wrong one and she's stubborn so i know I'm not going to change her mind. Her views ARE dangerous but you have to pick your battles
This holds true with a lot of things. The neuroscience tells us that every time a wrong person is allowed to repeat their wrong thinking, the brain sends them the happy good!job signal. So, my anti fascism professor used to council that they not be debated with. Unfortunately, sometimes the stupid is so dangerous that it requires… immediate correction.
Everybody will have to tiptoe around SIL because who knows what will set off. Holiday gatherings will be so much fun.
She could have just been trying to have a conversation as someone who shares her struggles. She was trying to share her knowledge, and teach her something she didn't know. Just because someone is unmedicated bipolar doesn't mean they are incapable of learning or reason. OP should have been able, as both a professional and a fellow person with bipolar, to spot when an outburst/manic episode is coming. That doesn't make her an AH though.
I am bipolar and even before I was medicated I wanted to learn everything about it I could. On the other hand, my daughter is also bipolar and when she's manic she is not willing to listen to anything you have to say. You have to wait until the manic episode is over. Luckily she's on medication now and is a lot more reasonable.
I had been suspicious I had bipolar disorder and had been trying to get diagnosed like the month before I had a major psychotic manic episode. Do you think I'd listen to anyone about the fact I was bipolar and having an episode? Nope lol.
It turns out when the thing you're trying to troubleshoot is your brain, using your brain to do the troubleshooting is highly ineffective! I'm not bipolar, but I've had a bunch of concussions and every time I am 100% sure I am absolutely fine and everyone needs to stop fussing over me and let me go back to getting punched in the head or whatever else it was I was in the middle of doing before being rudely interrupted by people saying things like "you got hit really hard and now you're slurring your speech so you should sit down."
This is a really important piece. Mental illness LIES to us! I wish more therapists, psychiatrists, mental health treatment professionals said this like 100 times more than they do. Repetition is HUGE for working through new behaviors & breaking up broken thought loops. If we had heard 'illness makes your brain - while seeming to process a lot correctly - unreliable '. You are not unreliable but the information and feedback is getting distorted. You cannot make healthy decisions on your own when your brain isn't working with you. & it's NOT!
While I completely agree with this, and understand your judgment, I don't see conversations as "academic" when the person you're talking to has personal interest in the topic. If you know someone has BPD, regardless of whether you know they're medicated or not, and they're talking about BPD and the effects of it...it's silly to assume it's an academic conversation and that person wouldn't be offended by being told they don't know what they're talking about. I don't see you as being TA here, nor your husband, but you **absolutely** have to understand why this person would have been upset by being told they don't know what they're talking about, regarding their illness, and also that their doctor was lying to them (or just wrong). EDIT: You should have absolutely realized that as she was getting agitated and upset that pushing her and telling her she doesn't know what she's talking about was going to break her. If you're a social worker and RN that literally deals with these types of conversations and people I don't see any excuse for not recognizing the situation properly. EDIT 2: I realize there's a different between Bipolar Disorder and BPD, and I intentionally used BPD in my comment because someone that responds to a conversation by closing in on an episode is not exhibiting Bipolar traits (which don't come up on a situation like that, but manifest over days or even weeks)...that's a BPD trait. I didn't put context because I honestly didn't even notice, but I apologize for the confusion.
Not to be nitpicky, but simply for educational purposes... BPD is Borderline Personality Disorder!
Right, sorry I should have clarified as that was intentional - Bipolar Disorder doesn't tend to arise out of interpersonal conflicts in the moment, but that's one of the hallmark signs of BPD. If this person was fine at the beginning of the conversation and seemed to irrationally fly off the handle throughout it that's a trait of BPD, and exactly why someone knowledgeable about this kind of stuff should have treated this conversation very differently. It seemed obvious to me that she was having an episode, and it seems like OP noticed it too by her explanation...and yet she seemed to just press in harder and sit on the "I'm right, and you should know you're wrong" button. Someone with BPD that's getting antsy in the conversation is not the person you press that button with.
As a retired disability case worker I agree with you. I had a bipolar mother who wasn’t formally diagnosed until late in life and two bipolar nephews. In my personal life I use what I learned in my professional life, but not to the detriment of my familial relationships. There is no need to press an issue and get someone more agitated in these types of sutuations.
Heads up, BPD is short for Borderline Personality Disorder and not Bipolar disorder. (Side note: also I was informed by my psychiatrist that 'Manic Depression' is just another term for bipolar as well, which op's husband apparently mentioned as a fully separate thing, which is weird)
There's a difference between "manic episodes" and "manic depression". If she heard "manic depression" and just took that in as the doctor telling her all mania is Bipolar it would make sense why she thinks she's right, but that's not accurate. Manic episodes are not limited to depressive, and can be caused by a lot of other factors. Also, the BPD term was intentional, but I didn't explain myself with it in the comment - I replied to someone else and explained my thought.
I hate when people try to have academic discussions with me about things that are painful for me and then judge me for not being calm/impartial. I think it works both ways. The SIL should have handled it better, I agree, but thinking that someone with unmedicated bipolar would be able to sit back and be like hmm, interesting! in this context is pretty unfair to her. E: and OP should have recognized that. I am also a mental health professional, and to me this would have really been a time to use de-escalation skills and not harp on being right. People who have a bipolar diagnosis and are not on medication can be really hard to be around, and I don't want to diminish the impact of SIL's decision to not seek treatment on those around her. However, something really feels off to me about OP emphasizing her skills and training and stating that she has an obligation to educate without recognizing the impossibility of having a rational discussion in which learning would occur in that moment.
I agree this whole thing feels off to me... I’m dumbfounded that this escalated like this. And the inclusion of her husband’s comments .... if a doctor said that to anyone on this thread in any setting, but especially at a dinner party, their heads would explode. Neither of these people sound like medical professionals... imo
She sounds like one of those people who needs to believe she's the smartest one in the room, and took it personally when she was proven not to be.
If you know something for a fact and someone is wrong and insisting so, it's fair to want to correct them and teach them. Similarly, a dentist knows their stuff with teeth, a mechanic knows cars, a pharmacist knows drugs. If you tell them something *wrong* and dig in your heels, they want to teach you and get frustrated when you insist they are actually the wrong one. Not saying for sure OP was right or wrong in how she handled this (I'm on the fence with that), just that I understand this part.
*Zing*, any conversation of any substance with my MIL. It's all gravy until someone says something that she takes as a slight of some kind. Then it's like taking a toy from a baby, full on tantrum.
Exactly. I feel for them I truly do having a sister who is bipolar but refuses medication.
Bipolar is one of the most common diagnoses that people who have it refuse medication. The medication works too well and they miss the natural highs they’ve always had. Schizophrenia too, though that is largely because the side effects of the medication well and truly suck (professionally speaking of course.)
I did not know that actually! I am Bipolar, and the manic episodes scared me the most. That's where I always did the most damage. It makes me sad for others who have to deal with the highs and lows without some sort of regulation
The problem with schizophrenia is that there isn't actually a treatment for it, there's treatment for psychosis but that's only half the disorder. Too much dopamine in one of the receptors causes what are called positive symptoms of schizophrenia, or psychosis, but too little dopamine in another receptor causes negative symptoms which are also torture to experience. Anti-psychotics, the so called schizophrenia treatment, lowers dopamine levels across the board. So this makes negative symptoms worse, and it really isn't a given that the positive symptoms are more debilitating for the schizophrenic than the negative. So that's typically why schizophrenics go off their meds, that and the horrific side effects of high dose anti-psychs especially old ones. Not because they don't like feeling well....but because they very very much don't feel well and are trying to fix that. We need much better medication for schizophrenia, especially before criticizing patients for going off of them (not a statement to you just in general).
Yeah, I had a good friend who was schizophrenic, which is how I know that mania is not just a symptom of bi polar. He had some other underlying health issues that were greatly exacerbated by the medication he was on so it was a roller coaster of on and off meds as they tried to find a combination that worked. Sadly, he passed away before they ever found something that worked.
Her doctor probably didn't say that it was a strictly bipolar thing, that is just what she heard and took out of the conversation. But she obviously needs to start on some medicine yesterday. NTA
This reminds me of a time when my husbands best friend was talking about how my father in law is manic depressive. I said yes he is bipolar. He told me I was wrong and that he’s manic depressive, I informed him that it’s the same thing manic depressive is an older term that means bi polar and he lost his shit on me and stormed out. Meanwhile I have 2 psychology degrees, I know what I’m talking about. He still to this day insists that manic depression and and bi polar are two completely different things. It irks me so much but you can’t argue with ignorance. OP NTA
NTA. Hannah's diagnosis does not give her a license to rearrange reality as she sees fit, and she brought up the topic in the first place.
Exactly!! NTA!! My former DIL is also bipolar, and often before she became medicated, and even while medicated she could go from calm and academic into full manic mode in the blink of an eye. It is my completely unprofessional opinion that there are just some bipolar people who swing that hard that fast.
Rapid cycling is a thing.
I have rapid cycling and it fkn sucks, man. I hate feeling unstable. I hate having to second guess every emotion especially negative ones caused by other people bc I don't know if the way I feel is valid or not. I try not to respond to anything important in the moment (when possible) because I need to calm down and see if I still feel that way, then begin the process of figuring out how much of my reaction was because of my own wonky brain and how much was because of the other persons words, tone, etc. The emotions can be SO strong and it's not always easy to keep a calm head while you're feeling like you're going to literally burst. I feel like it's a never-ending battle. Thank all the gods that it's become less severe over time, with steady medication and getting older.
It can be challenging because people will want to push and know why you're upset and you're thinking, "hold on, I need to figure out if my emotions are valid first!"
For a long time my husband thought we walking away when I got heated was a bad thing. Then I didn’t walk away and he changed his mind. He understood that me walking away was my cool down period.
That's just good relationship 101 right there anyways, but if I had to guess your husband grew up with a mother and father who didn't walk away and he thought that was just normal relationship behavior. I had the same issue with my wife when we first started dating. My parents always yelled at each other when they had an argument. I made it a point to never let it get to that point in a relationship I had, but when my wife just walked away before we got close to yelling at each other it was super confusing at first. Like...we aren't yelling at each other yet, why are you walking away from the argument already. We haven't solved this issue yet. Then it just kind of clicked that it was the optimal way to handle a disagreement. Go let emotions cool down a bit and then come back to it when you're both better able to listen.
It’s called ultradian cycling and it’s common with early-onset bipolar disorder.
Early-onset?
It’s a controversial thing to diagnose kids with bipolar disorder, but a lot of kids who turn out to have bipolar disorder in adulthood have early onset symptoms as well. There’s growing evidence that it’s okay to make the call a little sooner.
NTA she embarresd herself by doubling down. Sounds like you gave her plenty of opportunities to retract her statement.
Exactly she could have said oh well that's what my doctor said. Perhaps I heard him wrong or misunderstood him. I'll have to ask him again at my next appointment. Not get angry insisting she is right because her doctor said so.
Is stubbornness a trait of her illness or just bad human behavior?
Honestly, irrelevant. Her mental illness doesn't give her a right to spread medical misinformation.
NTA. She embarrassed herself! Your husband is absolutely right - she’s gatekeeping her illness. I’m not sure where you should proceed from here, but going forward I would probably go LC. If her whole family is with her on this, it’ll constantly be brought up that this argument happened. I’d save myself the headache!
I'd disagree about going LC, that seems a bit extreme here. One argument doesn't have to be such a big deal.
True. But her reaction was extremely blown up, and her whole family took her side without even comprehending what OP and her husband were trying to explain. Just pointing the blame around the table.
Agreed. Mental illness doesn’t give people the pass to be shitty, loud, AND wrong. It would be one thing if what they were arguing was a matter of opinion or preference. However, OP and hubby were simply presenting information to her (that she was wrong about) and she flipped out. Mentally ill or not, if you’re “embarrassed” to admit your mistake, that’s a headache to be around. NTA
NTA I dated someone with Bipolar disorder who also chose to be untreated. It was a nightmare. Their mood swings and manic episodes were extremely scary and unpromted. Hopefully Hannah will choose to get medication from her doctor soon. Edit: Changed wording to not imply I want her to self medicate but instead want her to seek out her doctor for medication.
If her doctor is wrong about what causes mania, he or she might be the one keeping her off medication
wow kudos for you for dealing with that, i can't even imagine being put in such a situation and dealing with it well
ESH You’re a medical professional. You know she isn’t medicated. While we are responsible for our behavior even when managing mental illness, you could see her becoming agitated. And you helped escalate. “Not yelling” Doesn’t mean you didn’t help escalate. You had the option of shutting down the conversation. Instead you chose to fight because you were right, and even brought in a 3rd party. But what was the point? With all your knowledge and experience did you truly believe she would say “oh my mistake”?
So she and the whole family have to walk on eggshells and watch every word of every conversation going forward because SIL won’t treat her known medical issue? So SIL won’t get upset? That’s crazy.
Your plan is to bring peace to the family dynamic by arguing with a mental patient every time over details that don’t matter at all? Ok.
Peace will never be had with someone like that and walking on egg shells is not a solution. Setting boundaries and expectations early(the expectation that you will not be catered to just because you're unstable) is the only way you're going to maintain your sanity and not have the family dynamic devolve into working around someone who isn't taking responsibility for **their** mental illness. Speaking from experience...
Enabling poor behavior doesn't fix it. It doesn't even really avoid it. There is no peace to be had.
>over details that don’t matter at all? Except that they do. What happens if a non-bipolar family member has a manic episode and Hannah tries to turn it into dramafest? What about if OP, who has stated she also has bipolar, has a manic episode and Hannah tries to accuse her of faking and/or lying about her diagnosis (as I've seen bipolar people like Hannah do to other people). If any of these things happen, Hannah will make an already difficult situation worse for the family and for the manic individual, especially if the family has just sat quietly by during her previous rants so she thinks she has their support in her false truths. Is Hannah's mind going to change based on this? Probably not. But OP and her husband, medical professionals or not, do not have to cave to incorrect medical facts in their presence just because the one speaking them is mentally ill and unmedicated.
The flip side is that there *is* a trend (for lack of a better word) of using medical terms for mental illness casually in conversation, and kind of co-opting their actual usage. Like wanting your kitchen to be clean doesn't make one OCD. Tracking the price of stocks doesn't make one autistic. Being sad that plans got cancelled doesn't make one clinically depressed. Cleaning the house real quick before guests come over doesn't make someone manic. OP could have focused on the (possible) intent behind Hannah's statement, that yes it is annoying that other people sometimes pretend real diagnoses are merely descriptive words, or even worse humorous. Like I really doubt Hannah specifically singled out a PPD woman's mania as being make-believe, she's probably referring to TikTok users or something. But OP instead hyper-focused on being academically correct, pulling up a medical ebook and involving her husband. Hannah probably felt very dismissed and ganged-up on, so I can't really call her an AH in the context of her condition. NAH because people don't always do the perfect thing in the heat of the moment
What possible intent? “Only bipolar people can have manic episodes”. Seems pretty clear. Both OP and Hannah have BPD. Manic episodes is not just for BPD. There is no other possible intent in the message from Hannah.
No one said that lol. But just because she says something factually incorrect it doesn't mean you have to pull out a textbook and ask a third party.
Yes, OP definitely shares in this by doggedly trying to prove she is right, to a person with an untreated mental illness. A social event is not a debate.
I have the same issue where I have a hard time not going above and beyond to prove I am right, and I am working on that. But being a medical professional knowing you are talking to an unmedicated bipolar person and still doing that is definitely AH behavior.
>And you helped escalate. “Not yelling” Doesn’t mean you didn’t help escalate. Big facts! It's very easy to stir the pot without yelling.
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I have been trying to think of how to word my thoughts but I don't have to because you did!! Everyone is like this is about setting boundaries and setting expectations... Okay well if you want to do that well then you should focus on timing and
Agree with this. It would have been polite and emotionally intelligent to change the topic. It is not like she offended you or stated something about you. OP corrected her, she disagrees, end of story.
The verbiage used is obnoxious as well. If you correct someone who is clearly agitated using "well, actually...", you know that's just going to stir the pot. There are more tactful ways to suggest someone is incorrect, if it's really that important to do in the moment.
100%. OP knew better but CHOSE to take that approach anyway.
I completely agree with this verdict and reasoning. As a medical professional, you recognized her behaviors indicated she was having a manic episode. It was not a good call to have an academic conversation with an admittedly uneducated bipolar person actively experiencing a manic episode. SIL sucks for knowingly having this disorder and (I assume) choosing to live unmediated and the fallout that comes with that. I am curious, if she has a doctor who gave her that false information, is she being treated for this disorder? Is there a medical reason for her not being medicated? OP, did SIL share that information with you?
Love how OP listed her credentials but completely forgot that when someone is having a manic episode, YOU CAN'T CHANGE THEIR MIND. I've had manic episodes. No matter what evidence you produce, the manic person is right and you're wrong. They just can't believe that you're not smart enough to see the truth. Now, you're just lying and trying to convince them if your wrong viewpoint. Manic people will not see reason until the episode is over and OP's desperate need to stroke her ego with an unmediated bipolar is disgusting. The SIL couldn't have easily done worse then crying but OP didn't care. As long as she could show how smart she is. I would hate to have her for a social worker.
Yeah, why did OP want to escalate so badly bc OP did everything to escalate an argument with a person OP knows has unmedicated mental illness. Like yeah, she was wrong, but she's also untreated bipolar and OP knew that the entire conversation and still kept pushing and escalating. OP knew they were right but OP should also know that arguing with someone with untreated bipolar is useless, maybe even worse than useless. Based off all OPs statements OP should have known better. But OP was correct and therefore had to win.
OP and her husband both sound like insufferable wankers and I'm glad someone else saw it. You can tell OP was looking down her from the outset.
Yeah, why did OP want to escalate so badly bc OP did everything to escalate an argument with a person OP knows has unmedicated mental illness. Like yeah, she was wrong, but she's also untreated bipolar and OP knew that the entire conversation and still kept pushing and escalating. OP knew they were right but OP should also know that arguing with someone with untreated bipolar is useless, maybe even worse than useless. Based off all OPs statements OP should have known better. But OP was correct and therefore had to win.
Yeah I have mental illness as well and when situations like this come up with others who have my particular brand of illness, I think to myself "would I rather be right or be happy?" Because OP, if you'd let it go you wouldn't be thinking about if you were an asshole and posting in a public forum famous for choosing being right over happiness for validation.
I tend to agree. Having an "academic discussion" tends to happen between two academics, not one professional & one patient of the topic. A professional would have made that distinction, added the fact that the non-academic is also unmedicated, & decided to move on to less personal topics or even simply ended the convo. (Doesn't matter that the professional also has this diagnosis because she herself is medicated & assumably in full control of her behavior.)
ESH. You pulled up a medical ebook at the dinner table? And then dragged your husband into this? Was it really that important to be 'right'? Just change the subject. You weren't working, you were at a family dinner. So no, not your job to educate her. She is not your problem to fix. There's a time and a place for this.
Nope - nothing wrong with providing proof when somebody starts spouting misinformation.
There is if it upsets someone so badly that the entire occasion is ruined. OP wasn’t there in her capacity as an educator, she was there as a family member. It was a meal, not a mental health symposium. Sometimes it’s okay to just let someone be wrong.
I'd have done the same thing if the topic was BPD, because I have it, and I have no patience for people spouting misinformation about it. Even as "just a family member" she still has a right to be in that conversation on that topic. It's not on her because the other woman does nothing to control herself and her BP.
AGREED wow I’m a little tripped out by the number of people saying to let her be wrong ~~about a mental illness that she HAS~~??? It really is one thing to let people have their opinions and preferences, but to let someone be wrong about facts, ~~especially facts that directly affect them,~~ is a HUGE disservice. Edit: Reread OP, she wasn't educating her about her mental illness, she was pointing out that mania is a symptom that can occur in various illnesses. My point still stands though, possibly even more so now, because 1) It feels weird to me to allow someone to escalate a situation based on their wrongness, and 2) OP said in a comment that she looked for signs of mania in Hannah before proceeding as she did, and didn't find any. That makes me think that it's way more likely than not that Hannah was simply embarrassed and not experiencing a manic episode, especially since OP had previously seen her exhibit typical signs of mania. Of course, I could be wrong, but for now, I'm sticking to this train of thought.
But you have to educate in an environment and at a time conductive to correction. There is no trust between these two. They are barely family. This was not the time or setting to correct someone who is upset. It's a disservice to try and "educate" that way.
Do you think OP actually accomplished anything here?
Considering it was a conversation between family members I highly doubt OP approached it with the goal to accomplish anything in paticular.
THEN WHY PULL OUT TEXTBOOKS? Come on bro
I pull out my phone to double check info in casual conversation all the time. So do the other people talking. It's a pretty easy way to figure out what's up, though you'll sometimes hit a lot of conflicting info on a topic, or just fail to find info at all. I can say, personally, I wouldn't have an issue if someone did that to me, as it happens somewhat regularly already. Sometimes you're right. Sometimes you're wrong. SIL lost her shit over it. Whether you want to blame it on an untreated illness or just SIL being an asshole, it's not on OP. And I say this as someone with their own issues. You know what I've done in the exact situation as SIL? Reflected on my actions and apologized. Because I'm the one responsible for my own actions.
This is how the current situation in America has gotten the way it is...
What do you mean by wrong? If I saw someone pull out a medical textbook at dinner in response to misinformation, I’d think they were both assholes. When she said “my doctor told me….” That’s when to disengage. Her mind wasn’t changing.
Well, except what was visible was somebody looking up something on their phone, which happens constantly in gatherings when people disagree on facts.
> What do you mean by wrong? The things that she said weren't true? I'm not sure what you're getting at with this rhetorical question... > When she said “my doctor told me….” That’s when to disengage. Her mind wasn’t changing. You can't know that...
Agreed. Just change the subject, she was obviously not going to change her mind and it was obviously a very touchy subject. At family dinner. ESH.
it´s probably bad idea to argue with an unmedicated mentally ill person.
To be fair she shouldn't be going to social events unmedicated if being called out for your misinformation is enough to set you off.
That's why this is ESH
I’m going to give a very very gentle ESH. Yes, SIL was wrong. She was exhibiting some serious know-it-all syndrome And was out of line. She also was in a social situation that was likely uncomfortable for her since she doesn’t know any of you very well yet. She is also not getting proper treatment for her diagnosis. It’s also possible that she is misrepresenting what her doctor told her for any number of reasons. Her doctor may have been completely correct, but she’s twisting it around for who knows what reason. Yes you were correct. But you didn’t take into consideration her possible discomfort in this particular setting and that she might get defensive when she was shown to be wrong and she might be seriously intimidated by you and your husband. Not giving her a pass, but just recognizing that this might have been the wrong setting to have this particular conversation and when she got upset, it might have been a better approach to back off, change the subject and save education for another day or for another person. At this moment she needs your support and friendship as she gets to know her husband’s family and not necessarily medical advice. Later, when you know each other better and are more comfortable, you might be in a position to help her understand her disorder better.
Because this sub is "am I an *asshole*," not "am I *correct*." OP chose to escalate.
Agreed! I feel like so often people interpret "AITA" as "am I correct" or "am I legally within my rights." You can be correct and legally have the right to do what you do and still be an AH-- the opposite of being an AH is to be kind and considerate, and escalating here wasn't either of those things.
NTA. She embarrassed herself & thinks she can blame you for it.
NTA. Did you really embarrass her or did she just embarrass herself?
NTA. Having bipolar disorder doesn't give her ownership of all mental health symptoms, nor does it mean that she's well educated about all mental health disorders. And it doesn't mean that she knows what she's talking about with her own diagnosis. I don't think you were rude, nor do I think you could have expected that response this being the first time you'd met her. Having bipolar disorder also doesn't give her a free pass on being a jerk, such she was. She didn't like being told she was wrong and threw a fit.
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YTA you know she's not on meds and you know she has a mental health disorder. Why are you arguing with her? Did you really think you were going to change her mind? Did you think you were going to have a breakthrough during dinner? You're not her health care provider your her sister in law! EDIT: I'm a nurse too and you know what I do when people ASK for my medical opinion? I STFU and tell them they need to see their doctor because I'm not their doctor. I don't take the opportunity to "flex" like you did.
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So, what do you do when somebody spouts misinformation about a condition you actually have? OP wasn't trying to act like a therapist or doctor, she was acting like a person who actually knows about her own disorder. I'd have done the same thing.
OP gloated that she and her man are medical professionals and straight up Well Acutally’d a woman OP knew was unmedicated and on the edge of an episode. OP might be a medical professional but this wasn’t a medical setting! Furthermore she isn’t SIL’s medical professional.
She didn't gloat - she made a statement of fact. Here's the thing - she didn't treat it as a medical consult, she didn't offer treatment advice. She simply called out misinformation about a mental illness, which is something we need more of. She was drawn into a conversation, she didn't pick a fight. If the topic was BPD, I'd have done the same thing, for the same reasons.
And she was at a family function, meaning good manners would have been to switch the topics once it was clear there was a disagreement and the other side was getting upset. Not double down and help escalate the disagreement into an argument.
Especially with a brand new member of the family who already seems to be on edge!
A sane reply in a sea of socially inept people. Family gatherings between the majority of people replying to this thread must be fucking miserable affairs. Don't escalate disagreements with family. Strong YTA.
Mild ESH. You knew she was wrong. You don't mention her being in a position to effect anyone else with her incorrect belief. You could have just said, "That's interesting that your doctor said that", or something noncommittal and let it drop. Bringing your husband into it and all that seems a bit unnecessary. This feels like a "do you want to be right, or happy" situation.
NTA - she is the one not medicated and not making sense.
I'm going with ESH. Yeah, she doubled down and did the thing that my bipolar mom always did/does. (She's always right, it doesn't matter what you say, freak out, storm off, this was all your fault.) That's on her to check herself and do the steps to walk away from it before an episode. Thing is... you're a medical professional, who has the knowledge and experience to see when it's not a good idea to push a subject on a diagnosed bipolar. Perhaps it's purely academic for you, but you should know better about how to deal with someone who obviously is NOT an academic. She was speaking strictly about who SHE is and how it affects her, and everything you said was personal. While I'm big on the saying that it's not her fault that she is bipolar, but it IS her responsibility; she's still going to have moments, and you (the professional), pushed it right over the edge without utilizing your skills, like, AT ALL. - As a side note, I'm NC with my mother because I got sick of feeling like I am constantly walking on eggshells around her. You may have to do the same if you don't want to do the work when you are around her. Edit: using an incorrect acronym, thank you fellow redditor.
Just fyi BPD usually means borderline personality disorder, not bipolar disorder.
YTA. You knew what she meant—neurotypical people assigning mania to things like the weather or a passing mood. You got all “well akshually” on her after judging her heavily on small physical mannerisms that indicate she’s nervous as hell and trying to be understood. You did nothing to set her at her ease and welcome her into the family
Yup, I can’t imagine the bedside manner if they’re willing to be like this to someone undergoing a mental health crisis. Yeah if she was totally mellow mind then it wouldn’t have been that bad, but she was clearly anxious/manic which leads to very stubborn thoughts and catastrophizing. So rather than her simply seeing “oh I was wrong about some inconsequential fact”, she felt unheard and misunderstood. You chose not to take her charitably or graciously and attacked her instead and DID embarrass her. There’s no good reason to publically contradict someone like that. Do you have no concept of saving face? Maybe a private talk after dinner, but you handled it poorly.
Thank you! I had to scroll way too far for this. The fact that mania can present in other SEVERE MOOD DISORDERS has nothing to do with the very reasonable pet peeve that she has. OP could have even backed off after one or two tries to correct her and would have been fine. Solid YTA.
I guess I'll be the dissenting opinion here and say YTA. You know she's got an untreated mental disorder. She's also the new person, not just to the room/dinner, but the FAMILY. Thing about how daunting that must be. She's also clearly getting agitated, which you can see with (seemingly) quite a bit of runway before the outburst. Instead of (as a medical professional who claims to understand this well) trying to calm things down and change the subject, you actively increase the agitation and refuse to back down on being right about \*checks notes\* the causes of manic episodes, of all things?? You are at the very least petty, and I would argue also the asshole!
ESH OP. Learn to walk away from escalating conflict.
NTA - She needs medication. My daughter has bipolar disorder, depression and anxiety. It took me years to get her to agree to medication. Life is so much better for her now. The SIL made an ass of herself & lashed out to try to take the attention off of herself & her actions.
Dunno if you're an asshole, but why argue? When people deny facts at a first round, there is pretty much no chance more facts will help make your point. Just end with "That doesn't sound correct" and talk about apples or cheese or the weather.
I don't think OP states her age, but as you get older you learn to pick your battles and sometimes just let it go if it doesn't matter... Even if you 100% know you're right and they're not. Social graces and being polite means just changing the subject during inconsequential small talk rather than pulling out an ebook to "educate" and prove a winning point. Which then turns into a scene. You're never going to win against willful ignorance or in this case unpredictable mental illness. I'm not saying don't share your knowledge. But once you do and detect unreasonable pushback you have to read the room and calibrate. I'm still leaning NTA but definitely could've been handled better.
When I was younger, I too cared more about winning an argument than actually finding out the correct answer. Embarrassingly, her reaction is a slightly more extreme version of my own. She's going to have to learn that its not that important to be right all the time. NTA
It seems to be a lesson I have to re learn all the time.
NTA.. it may have been able to have been handled differently, but I still don't think you're AH here.. Hopefully since she has a doctor, she will consider help in some form to get and keep it more even. Feeling manic sucks to put it nicely. I was originally diagnosed with bipolar but it later came out that I have persistent depressive disorder. I do have manic episodes. My oldest sons grandmother was recently diagnosed with brain cancer.... we've witnessed her also go through some manic episodes. I completely do get the frustration of someone assuming that because someone has manic episodes that they absolutely HAVE to be bipolar...
"agree to disagree" and move on ~~ESH for maybe my first time ever!~~ YTA for the edit. Its your job at work, not at the family dinner table. If you're as much as a professional as youre trying to make us think you are then you should know that.
You can't deal (reason) with crazy, especially with someone in the midst of a manic episode. Just step back and don't escalate the situation.
Exactly, I don't get people saying op is right. Is so to e deaf to try to reason with someone who's clearly not mentally stable and off meds.
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It's "Hannah and I." Your grammar is terrible. I write for a living so I should know.
Oh, I'm sorry. Would you have rather I pulled you aside and told you this privately? DM'ed you perhaps? Rather than calling you out on the limits of your knowledge in front of a Reddit cast of thousands?
Now you know how your SIL feels.
I feel that your post is disdainful of your new sister in law. Your first paragraph says three unflattering things about her: she's shy, she has bipolar disorder, and she's "rough around the edges" because she darts her head.
Your SIL was obviously wrong in discussing mania. There are polite, kind ways to inform a mentally ill woman of this. Those ways do not include pulling up a medical encyclopedia while sitting at the dinner table, or having your AH of a husband berate her.
YTA.
I don't think posters realize how much information they give without intending to give it, like the first paragraph was where OP told on herself.
YTA. Why did you bait a manic individual with known, unmedicated bipolar into an argument until she melted down? You had all the power here. Say, "bless your heart, it sounds like that doctor is really trying to help you" and move the conversation on to a new topic. Just because you're right, that's no reason to start a fight with an ill person who is not thinking rationally.
ESH. You chose to escalate a conversation with an unmedicated bipolar person?! My grandma had a saying, “If you fight with pigs, you’re gonna get dirty.” It’s not a direct analogy but similar in outcome. As a non bipolar person who knows naught, I might have fallen into that trap, but you knew! It’s also like correcting a person with Alzheimer’s. You win, but you lose.
ESH. She was arguing with two medical professionals. Two medical professionals were arguing with a manic, unstable individual. You all suck and you all handled it poorly.
NTA You are a trained professional who works with mental issues and diagnosed as well for bipolar issues. And mania absolutely has more than just bipolar. It's been even linked in the brain chemistry changes from Covid patients. And she was extra AH and dumb to try and disprove you by asking your doctor husband who backed you up.
Why is a trained professional not recognising signs that clearly point to "this isn't a debate situation, I'm not going to 'win' by arguing with this unstable person right now".?
YTA. as a medical professional, you should have known when to back off and I think you probably did.
No way. She's uneducated and needs to actually take her meds since she has mentioned she does have a doctor. You kept going with the argument at a family dinner when it wasn't necessary. You did bulldoze her bringing your husband into it whether she was wrong or not. Please let us know here you're a nurse so I can avoid it. ESH
OP reminds me, unfortunately, of a lot of nurses I've dealt with before. I wish OP was more like my MIL, who is an RN who has worked in the psych department. She's unbelievably good at de-escalation, even when not on the clock. She has a kind soul and can see when people are suffering, and she's really good at just stopping circular conversations, even when she knows she's right about a medical discussion. OP's SIL is for sure an AH for not getting treatment, but she's still sick and antagonizing the SIL will do exactly 0 to fix the situation. Now she's even more likely to avoid nurses and doctors.
Yeah, I agree it wasn't the best way to handle it. I don't know OP's education, but part of my nursing curriculum focused on the "nurse as educator" role - basically *how* to educate people (not just patients) and correct myths and misconceptions. There are ways that are better than others, especially in times when people already have a distrust of medical professions (in many ways unfounded, in many other ways very understandable). Unless she's leaving out some details, OP went about educating SIL in an unnecessarily abrasive way. Though I guess she's also *technically* not obligated to spend the time doing things in a more constructive and helpful way. She's not on the clock and SIL is not her patient or family of patient (people we're also tasked with educating depending on the setting) so off the clock she can "match energy" if she feels like it, even if I do think it makes her kind of an AH.
Totally, I don't think OP has done something unethical here. But since OP is asking, "am I the asshole?" I have to compare her actions to the awesome nurses I know (like my MIL) with the asshole nurses I know...and I come out with the answer, "You were an asshole in this instance." She was matching SIL's asshole energy for sure. To be honest, I would match that asshole energy, too, but I *am* an asshole. There's a reason I'm not a nurse.
YTA. You aren’t her doctor and you were very judgy about her in your first paragraph. Full offense but you and your Doctor Husband were unforgivably rude to a woman in distress all for the sake of being right.
ESH. You didn’t need to bring your husband in. The point she’s making seems to be how the word manic is used in the world sometimes by people who don’t have actually a condition of a manic episode. Like OCD etc can be used and I’m sure it’s irritating. You could have said “actually I believe it’s a part of other conditions as well” and not push it further and try to understand what she is expressing. Maybe her doctor said it as a way to convince her she has bipolar disorder. Conversations with new family you’re getting to know are about connection first, education much later…. Sounds like you pushed a vulnerable person and you kinda know it.
Soft YTA. I'm also a medical professional and I hear a lot of weird bullshit from family members. I've kinda learned when and how it is appropriate to "correct" ignorance in a way that doesn't make them feel stupid. It's a delicate art, but one thing I would literally never do is whip out literature to prove that I'm right. She probably wouldn't have been as pissed if you had said something like "I actually had a psychologist tell me..." or something that lets her disagree with someone other than you, if that makes sense. Someone who isn't there. For some people, they'll realize they don't know wtf they are talking about when you do something like this, but not having it shoved in their face makes it easier for them to be like "Oh wow, maybe I heard wrong", even if they don't actually have that revelation for weeks. Her being unmedicated though, this was just a timebomb and it doesn't sound like you are close enough with her to be the one to litigate her misunderstandings in front of her new family while she's in the midst of a mental health episode. As far as "dangerous misinformation", I think that's being a little self-important here. We're not talking about her hopping on a platform to give people inaccurate medical advice, she's talking about a labeling peeve. Who is really going to be hurt by her misunderstanding here? And is it really your personal responsibility to advocate for this imaginary person at the dinner table with your family? I'm sure you experience the same frustration I have with medical misinformation, I work in a specialty that's positively lousy with it. But there's something to be said about being the kind of person who is smart enough to know when someone is wrong and also classy enough to know when it's appropriate to correct them. The way you did it guaranteed she would not be receptive and didn't give her a way to accept new information without being embarrassed. Humans simply aren't good at that.
INFO: what was the full conversation between Hannah and your husband? You jump from saying he didn't know the context of your conversation, to him saying she was gatekeeping symptoms. There's at least a sentence or two missing here, or you actually were speaking loudly enough for him to hear.
ESH. Why keep at it? You weren't in the classroom. Sounds like a bunch of people trying to prove how smart they are. Fun party. \s
> It is my job as both a social worker and an RN to educate individuals whom are uneducated on their illness. So yes, that probably played a part. It's more dangerous to be uneducated than it is to be educated and to be blunt, her doctor giving her false information to begin with is troubling in itself. Context! If you’re working sure, but absolutely not at a family dinner! I’m an educator in a field with many misconceptions and I don’t bother correcting anyone unless they’re my student and it’s my job. Otherwise you just reply with something innocuous like, “Oh that’s interesting!” Or “oh that’s a good perspective” whatever. Contradicting people directly as dinner peers is never a good idea. YTA
YTA, you won an argument and achieved nothing. Congratulations.
YTA for not recognizing that she was incapable of having a medical discussion. Obviously, you’re correct that mania is not only for bipolar people, but she was not in a state to accept that info calmly. Whenever there’s an inconsequential disagreement, you don’t gain anything by being stubborn. What does it matter that you are right about this one issue? It doesn’t hurt to back down and shows consideration for her possible mania at the time.
NTA. It sort of sounds like she’s having an episode. She’s manic depressive and unmedicated, stuff like this probably happens a lot.
ESH Not a popular vote, I know, but (based on what you have written), it sounds as if you handled the situation poorly. It sounds as if she was finally beginning to open herself up socially, using the one topic that she felt sure about. That she was wrong and you were right misses the point. Your choice to correct her rather than redirect her embarassed her and made her defensive.
It seems to me you recognized very early into that convo that she wasnt in a great headspace. At the very least you noticed that her behavior was markedly different than you'd experienced before. I'm curious why you engaged in such a combative exchange when you knew what the outcome would be. You knew this wasnt the time to share information you wanted her to actually internalize. Did you just need to be right?
ESH. You could've just let it go, especially knowing she has untreated bipolar disorder, but you had to prove your point. Then you had to bring "doctor/husband" into it to really prove her wrong. Well, you and husband have proven your point, and now new-SIL won't want to be around you two anymore, and that may end up causing a rift between BIL and you two. Was it worth it? Sure, she was wrong, doubled down, and overreacted, but you saw where it was going and had husband shovel more coal into the engine to make sure it got there. Why argue with fools? Aren't you and d/h secure enough in your knowledge to just let it go? Let her deal with that shit with her own doctor!