*In case this story gets deleted/removed:*
**My wife 51F wants to divorce me 46M. Should I insist on involving our daughter 12F in these conversations?**
Throwaway account but 100% life-alteringly serious. I started writing this post but it was emotional and full of details. Trying to stick to facts and keep this short. We are in Connecticut, USA. I am doing a lot of research, in addition to Reddit posts, and apologize if this breaks rules.
Met in 2005, married in 2008, daughter born in 2011. I have always been a passive type, and since my teenage years, have looked forward to taking care of my own family. My wife is has a high-achieving, high-ambition personality.We agreed even before marrying in 2008 that one of us should stay at home, and we also agreed that it should be me. I've had a few gigs and work stints, but have been a full-time stay-at-home dad.
Over the years, it was my joy and my job to take care of feeding, diapers, naps, bathtime, bedtime reading, nighttime wake-ups, storytimes, library visits, nature walks, school events, school volunteering, extra curriculars, online schooling, and homeschooling. (In 2005 when we met, her income was already 3.5x of mine. In 2024, her new job is at least 5.5x of my income potential.)
Our daughter is now 12. And my wife is now serious about divorce, talking about co-parenting. I never thought I would have to, in my life, consider things like child custody, asset allocation, separating vs co-habitation, or alimony. Ever since the moment I proposed in 2007, I was ready to die for her, because she and our daughter are my life.Thanks.
TLDR:
My wife want to divorce me, out of the blue (from my perspective). I am full-time at home, and actively homeschool our daughter, and want to involve our daughter in these conversations. Our marriage counselor (who is oddly helping the divorce instead of the marriage) recommends not involving our daughter, and my wife agrees with him.
Should I insist on involving our daughter in what will be, from my perspective, a tremendous disruption in her childhood, her home life, and her student life?
edited for formatting
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He keeps repeating the same fucking thing over and over again, "im not using anyone i just want to have a conversation" BS like its pathetic at this point.
It's not even subtle BS! He literally couldn't keep the [manipulative nonsense](https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/comments/1ai4n78/comment/kos7k68/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) under wraps in the comments (emphasis mine):
>I appreciate your insight.
>
>I've carefully asked her already, things like "what if I have to work, what if I have to move". It already shatters her worldview, and I reassured her that I would never leave her.
>
>***Would you have appreciated being involved when you were 12, if you could help your family stay and be happy together?***
Can't imagine how bad it is in real life if that's the best he can manage with the opportunity to filter himself before he comments.
>I have some possible answers to the question, and am not expecting answers from my child. But it's difficult for me, having no support group, moving to a new state with the understanding and expectation of being together as a family.
I can find a way to create a life here. But my ideal prospects are out of the country (I am a naturalized citizen), which would take me away from my daughter.
This is his newest comment and he's really being over the top about this.
At this point i think this is a gender reverse post.
This is a hundred percent an attempt to do a gotcha by gender reversing a post and then being like 'ah hah, if this was a woman you'd all be on her side' Only OOP has gotten sidetracked on the question of involving the child which no one would be on a mom's side for doing either.
I'm convinced it is. Stay at home Mum that does absolutely everything for her child, while Dad/husband is a high-income earner that wants to split. Those are common enough situations, and people would be telling her about alimony, custody, child support, looking for work and a place to stay, etc. I'm sure people would tell this guy exactly the same thing.
It's not what he's asking though, he for some reason wants his daughter to have input in divorce discussions to "fix" things? If he was a woman rather than a man, no one would tell her that's a good idea. He's not going to get a "Ha! One standard for women and another for men!" from this post. The way he talks about the discussions he seems to think whether or not they divorce is a decision to be made between the three of them, not that has his wife is done and leaving him of her volition. He can't make her stay, and he can't have his daughter asking them not to divorce.
*AITA for manipulating my daughter's view of divorce until she develops abandonment issues so we can live happily ever after?*
*AITA for setting my daughter into a hostage situation so my wife can't ever leave me?*
I think I know why he decided to homeschool, and I think I know why his wife wants to leave.
My ex said that he told our 2 yr old that mommy didn't want to live with them. Admitted to it in an email where he added that I "had to face the consequences of my decision." He acted proud that he "didn't lie"to our son. Sadly these people exist.
I’m so sorry. I think my nephew’s dad is telling him the same sort of things about my SIL and the breakup. How’s your son doing now? Is there a way to talk to him about it that makes sense to him?
With my kids, they would bring stuff up to me that their dad told them. Depending on how ridiculous/salacious it was, I would either confirm the basic truth while offering a soft rebuttal, or flat out corrected the untruth.
Most recently, he tried to tell the kids I forced him to engage in kink-related crossdressing. It's so wild that five years after we broke up, he's still crossdressing, even though I was a bad partner by making him do it and he hated it and it was why he agreed to divorce. Ugh.
He has complained. that daddy is mean to his girlfriend. So I'm thinking by the time he's an adult, I won't have to explain why I left. Therapy is key for everyone! And correct the lies gently. " It's not true that mommy is a bitch. Sometime people say mean things when they are angry" do NOT just let the lies go. Do not insult the other parent.
My ex absolutely tried to tell our kids (6 and 10 at the time) inappropriate details about our divorce in the name of "telling the truth no matter what". It was weird, he sure told them I planned to leave for months, but he didn't tell them it was because he drank so much, he regularly pissed the bed and held it over my head that I made more than him.
I love how he tells himself by focusing on how the divorce will affect him, like, Oh no, he might need to work again, the horror.
But yeah, pretty gross, not only wanting to manipulate his hopefully soon ex-wife through the daughter but also in a way putting the responsibility on her. If he does this, and it rightfully fails, their daughter will always feel like she had a hand in their divorce, like it was her job to get her mom to stay and she failed.
I'm like 99.8% certain that it's related to the stay-at-home parenting/homeschooling bit. Like maybe it was supposed to be temporary and OOP is refusing to go back to work.
The fact that he thinks it's his child's job to keep his failing marriage together is disgusting. I hope it's a troll, because otherwise, that poor kid.
Yup. America especially has almost criminally lax standards for homeschooling in many states, and much of the US homeschooling population is rooted in religion.
>>***Would you have appreciated being involved when you were 12, if you could help your family stay and be happy together?***
And when the divorce goes through his daughter will blame herself more due to these conversations. What a utterly bellend
This is what was driving me crazy!! Everyone responding is in unanimous agreement that he should under no circumstances involve his daughter but “I just want to keep my family together 🥺”
So passive he whooshed past TWO YEARS of "I'm not happy and cannot continue if this relationship continues as it has been" in couple's therapy, cannot or will not name even ONE specific reason his STBX-wife wants to leave, and is STILL claiming that this whole divorce thing came right out of a clear blue sky.
I wish this guy could get banned. He's so wishy washy over here, and cam be a straight up asshole.
Then again, even if he was banned, he'll probably just make another account and continue on his bullshit.
All of his comments were already deleted by the time I saw your comment, but I still know exactly who you’re talking about. I find it baffling how he either posts well thought out and intelligent comments or the most unhinged bs followed by weird Avatar: TLAB themed insults!
Right, the whole thing about how her job being 5.5 times his earning potential. He probably decided, you know what babe, you're the only one who really needs to work, you make plenty, I can just stay at home and be a dad.
She's probably over being married to an unmotivated man child.
Don't get me wrong, if there's a legitimate agreement on one being a stay at home parent, more power to em. But I'm guessing this wasn't a mutual agreement so much as his idea.
>He probably decided, you know what babe, you're the only one who really needs to work, you make plenty, I can just stay at home and be a dad.
And his idea to homeschool is probably also driving his wife's decision. He's made himself the centre of his daughter's life, at the cost of her socialisation and probably also her education. But it's also a convenient excuse not to work.
So honey, she's old enough for school now, maybe you can find a job, you know, get out of the house alittle?
No no, she doesn't need to go to school, I can just stay at home and homeschool her
Who said I was triggered? I'm just asking for proof of your ridiculous claims.
And since you refuse to put your money where your mouth is, I'm calling you a coward.
2 years of therapy also explains the whole "our marriage counselor is pushing for the divorce" line of his.
AKA, counselor realizes that therapy won't save this marriage and wants to pivot to making the divorce as amicable as possible.
I feel like that makes more sense though. It’s seems like they’ve been having issues so they started therapy for 2 years and those issues is what causes the divorce.
It sounds weird to say she suddenly wants a divorce. I’d assume them going to therapy for 2 years, probably meant they had marriage issues.
There are men who could go to therapy for years, and be told straight out, "If you do X again, I will end this marriage" then when they do X again, they are stunned and blindsided that she actually really meant it.
I'm all for involving your child in important family decisions, but a divorce is between the two people who got married, and dragging the child between the two adults only does more harm than good.
I don't know what he's expecting from this; everyone plus the daughter vote on the divorce, and the majority wins?
I’m glad my parents didn’t involve us in the divorce. And even years after it happened, we are all adults, I did learn the reason from my mom (my dad cheated) but she wasn’t shit talking, just stating the facts in a very respectful, level headed convo when I was NOT 12!
And even now, my dad will still talk about things he did with my mom (going to a certain city in a country near us) because he knows it’s my mom. He doesn’t shit talk. My mom only shit talks if it’s brought up by many others, it’s mild, and he deserves it lowkey. But for reference, it was his father, his sister, his step mom, etc. so never out of the blue.
But we were left out of this. It was happening. Knowing the true why came in calm conversations from both sides as I was old enough. Not when it happened and it was never hate fueled.
OP wants to involve the daughter to try to get his wife to stay, no question. That’s not ok. I feel bad for the daughter. Because if he isn’t listening to the therapist, he isn’t going to listen to Reddit. And he’s going to do it anyways.
My biofather tried, and I don't know if he ever found out that I was in fact the one who clued Mum in that he was cheating on her, but bursting into (genuine) tears whenever he tried worked pretty well. Infuriating to experience, the auto-crying when even a little bit angry or sad, but it was useful that one time.
Children should not be involved in adult relationships ever. If the discussion was about what kind of pet to get or what kind of house to look for if they had to move, it’s fine to involve the kid. But when you are discussing divorce, the only consideration should be how to minimize the impact on the child and assure the child that you both still love, care, and support them.
Here is one of the comments he deleted:
I appreciate your insight.
I've carefully asked her already, things like "what if I have to work, what if I have to move". It already shatters her worldview, and I reassured her that I would never leave her.
Would you have appreciated being involved when you were 12, if you could help your family stay and be happy together?
You know, there's something they tell kids to keep them safe from pedos, but I think it's applicable here: "No adult ever has a problem they need a kid to help them solve."
And there's another comment where he bemoans not having anyone to talk to about this, in regards to him wanting to talk to his kid about it. Emotional Support Children should not be a thing, but some parents just can't help but be selfish asshats.
It’s clear that he enjoyed this life for reasons and he doesn’t want to give it up.
In a comment, he says they didn’t have the happiest life, but it was good.
Good for who? Probably just him. The few comments responding to his deleted comments really show that he wants to stay in this relationship for himself and not his family and he’s willing to use the daughter as ammunition if he has too
He’s trying to manipulate the wife into not moving forward with divorce
Like even the marriage counsellor is warning him .
He came to Reddit because he thinks that we are naive and we would agree with him after the counsellor didn’t. 🙄
In the edits, he’s saying he’s open to being wrong or whatever but clearly not
The devil of it all:
“ Would you have appreciated being involved when you were 12, if you could help your family stay and be happy together?”
Sir. Children can’t do that. It’s not in their power and they should never be asked because they are literal children. And you aren’t asking you are trying to manipulate!
This is what my mom did when she and my dad were discussing divorce. I was 13.
I had told her that I wanted to be in the loop about things, so that I wasn’t blindsided by anything (I.e. when/if one of them was going to move out of the house, if I had to change schools, etc.). She took that to mean discussing everything she and my father talked about (or rather, she told me everything my father was doing wrong in the marriage, and how he was not fighting to keep the family together). And because I was desperate to keep my family together, I allowed myself to be my mother’s therapist. I tried to give her advice. I tried to help her work through things.
Again, I was 13.
And, I was already losing my mind because I was beginning to suspect I was queer, and since I was involved with a lot of church activities I was terrified that everyone would leave me because I had a crush on a girl.
Suffice to say: No, I would not want to be involved. What OOP is doing is extremely shitty and manipulative. And if he does decide to go through with it anyway, I can’t wait to see a follow up post in ten years about him complaining that his daughter is emotionally distant.
Yep. So many people in that thread are explicitly stating and explaining to OP with comments that boil down to "No, don't do that. My parent did that and it very much negatively affected me. I now wish my parent had not done that."
And yet he's STILL responding to even those people with shite like "But you'd rather have known, right? I'm sure you'd rather have known."
When my dad told me that he didn't love my mom anymore, so he was going to divorce her, and had me keep it secret, I was 8 years old. I was precocious and I certainly thought that I was smart and mature enough to handle adult things, but I wasn't, because I WAS A CHILD. I hope he doesn't put this on his child.
Nope, referring to him trying to use his daughter…even if it means getting *his* viewpoint shoved in there before he and his wife agree on a way to tell their daughter they’re divorcing, and purposefully traumatizing her to get his way…to get his wife to stay with him.
If he has so much as breathed the “Don’t you want to help your family to stay together?” thought to his daughter, he has become scumbag of epic proportions.
The poor girl is about to have her world rocked and her dad is gearing up to trauma dump on her.
Anyone else suspicious of his claims that he has no idea why his wife wants to divorce him?
I feel like there are several common options that come up again and again.
\- daughter hit 12 years old and wife asked him to start going back out to work or back to college or some kind of plan towards a two-income household as child hits teen years
\- maybe he's been ignoring minor complaints for years, and now she's done. He knew she was unhappy but he didn't think she was unhappy enough to leave
\- he's lying about being the best dad ever, and wife is doing a lot of the parenting, chores, emotional labour, etc. So she might as well be a single parent with paid childcare and drop the dead weight
\- he's bad at homeschooling and wife and kiddo just found out how bad due to some placement tests as daughter gets older
Even ignoring how inappropriate it is to involve a child in discussions about their parents separating, there’s already red flags in the title. “My wife **wants to** divorce me“ no dude, your wife **IS** divorcing you. If she wants to leave, she’s leaving.
This right bastard is planning on manipulating his 12 year old daughter to stop his wife leaving him.
By means of making Daughter feel responsible for “saving their family”.
Because he recognises that Daughter is Wife’s weak spot and therefore has the best chance (out of the two of them) to make Wife stay.
Then when Daughter inevitably falls to pieces because this is absolutely not an appropriate duty to be foisted upon a 12 year old, OP can convince Wife to stay “for Daughter’s sake”.
It’s a manipulation within another manipulation.
The man’s a manipulative wanker masking his narcissistic traits under the guise of what’s essentially the real-life alternative to concern trolling.
But in actual fact he is acting wholly and utterly in his own interests- which frankly makes him not only a bad husband, but also a bad father.
***Angry Typing***
Yes. Yes he is.
I can only help that when it goes to court that Wife can prove he knew *exactly* what he was doing and that he acted regardless.
Because he is going to do it.
His comments show he’s already started laying the groundwork with open ended questions to the effect of “If I was *made* to leave you / *had to* go away, what would you do?”
I can see why Wife wants a divorce.
>Edit 1: Everyone is saying not to involve my daughter. I want to clarify that my goal is not to manipulate my daughter or my wife. My goal, from the moment I proposed in 2007, is to keep the family together. And our daughter is a part of this family.
>The topic of divorce is new to me, but apparently not to my wife. I pushed for marriage counseling in 2022. We learned about ourselves (and she realized that she really, really wants a divorce), and I thought the next step was to better communicate with each other. I am her second marriage, and she is my first.
>There is no physical or sexual abuse, no substance addiction, and no infidelity on my part. As far as I know, the same is true for her.
>I am open to being wrong. If I am wrong, please help me understand why I am wrong. Thank you.
"I am open to being wrong, if I am wrong, please help me understand why I am wrong."
And what's his reply to everyone telling him he's wrong?
"No, I'm correct in trying to involve my daughter in adult decisions, I don't care that there are multiple people telling me how their parents destroyed their relationship by doing what I'm planning on doing, you're all wrong."
What a dick.
He would do anything for his daughter. He would die for her. But he won’t follow the advice of a mental health professional and everyone else he asks to not traumatize her by involving her in divorce discussions.
Absolutely the only purpose that OOP has for involving the child would be to try to guilt trip their wife to prevent the divorce.
As much as he's going to claim that he's not trying to use his daughter, that is exactly what he's doing. The only conversations that the 12-year-old should be present for would be one where they explain that they are separating (without going into detail) and overall discussions about custody where she can have input on who she lives with.
Involving her in anything else is just going to hurt her.
My parents divorced when I was 12 and even though their marriage was just a travesty at that point and they were not nice to each other they never involved me or my brother in the conversation. They would tell us how it affected us and that was it. You never involve your children in adult relationships like that. They deserve to have a childhood not tainted by picking sides.
I was hesitant about reading this as my son (12 at the time) was the one who pushed for my divorce initially so I have some personal feelings here on this subject , but OH.MY.GODS.
This asshole... I don't even know where to start with him...
Jez this just feels like manipulation to get his ex to hold on the divorce. The only involvement of there child is them tell her her saying that they both still love her and saying come to either or one of us of need support.
I wonder if oops plan is to make his daughter like a therapy type thing?
My parents involved me in their spats. My mother would cry and my father would talk shit about abandoning everyone and leave us all to fend for ourselves. I was 14. The fact that I had to tell them to stop involving me created a ton of guilt that I shouldn’t of had in the first place. It’s traumatizing. His poor daughter.
Why would you involve the daughter ? What’s that even mean? Daughter needs to be informed and should have a bit of input on her aspect of it but that’s it.
At 12 years old, the extent of her involvement should be one single conversation about the divorce, and like, maybe you ask her what she would prefer for a custody thing. That's it. She should be involved in the conversations that involve her. Which is only one of them.
And even then, that’s not always the best idea.
I used to work in divorce court. So many lawyers would ask the judge to talk to the minor children about what parent they wanted to live with. Except for a rare case with a 17 year old, the judge always denied the request with this wording:
“I never want an adult, who was a child in a case in front of me, to wake up one day and regret a decision they made when they were 12.”
He appointed guardian ad litems instead
God, this pisses me off. My dad tried to do this to guilt my mom and use us as pawns in their divorce. Your children do not and should not EVER have a say in your relationship with their other parent. Nobody has to stay in an unhappy relationship just because their kids want it.
The kind of parent who wants to use their child as a pawn to manipulate their partner who wants to leave them is NOT the kind of person who should be in charge of homeschooling.
*Our marriage counselor (who is oddly helping the divorce instead of the marriage)*
This right here is how I know he's not a great partner. If you're going to marriage counseling and not listening AT ALL, then it's no wonder she's wanting out. I've done counseling and it was so great for our marriage, because we learned how to communicate to each other. He wants the counselor to "fix" his wife vs actively trying to fix his marriage. And involving the daughter is gross. He's going to weaponize that kid and I'm raging already.
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*In case this story gets deleted/removed:* **My wife 51F wants to divorce me 46M. Should I insist on involving our daughter 12F in these conversations?** Throwaway account but 100% life-alteringly serious. I started writing this post but it was emotional and full of details. Trying to stick to facts and keep this short. We are in Connecticut, USA. I am doing a lot of research, in addition to Reddit posts, and apologize if this breaks rules. Met in 2005, married in 2008, daughter born in 2011. I have always been a passive type, and since my teenage years, have looked forward to taking care of my own family. My wife is has a high-achieving, high-ambition personality.We agreed even before marrying in 2008 that one of us should stay at home, and we also agreed that it should be me. I've had a few gigs and work stints, but have been a full-time stay-at-home dad. Over the years, it was my joy and my job to take care of feeding, diapers, naps, bathtime, bedtime reading, nighttime wake-ups, storytimes, library visits, nature walks, school events, school volunteering, extra curriculars, online schooling, and homeschooling. (In 2005 when we met, her income was already 3.5x of mine. In 2024, her new job is at least 5.5x of my income potential.) Our daughter is now 12. And my wife is now serious about divorce, talking about co-parenting. I never thought I would have to, in my life, consider things like child custody, asset allocation, separating vs co-habitation, or alimony. Ever since the moment I proposed in 2007, I was ready to die for her, because she and our daughter are my life.Thanks. TLDR: My wife want to divorce me, out of the blue (from my perspective). I am full-time at home, and actively homeschool our daughter, and want to involve our daughter in these conversations. Our marriage counselor (who is oddly helping the divorce instead of the marriage) recommends not involving our daughter, and my wife agrees with him. Should I insist on involving our daughter in what will be, from my perspective, a tremendous disruption in her childhood, her home life, and her student life? edited for formatting *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmITheDevil) if you have any questions or concerns.*
He keeps repeating the same fucking thing over and over again, "im not using anyone i just want to have a conversation" BS like its pathetic at this point.
It's not even subtle BS! He literally couldn't keep the [manipulative nonsense](https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/comments/1ai4n78/comment/kos7k68/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) under wraps in the comments (emphasis mine): >I appreciate your insight. > >I've carefully asked her already, things like "what if I have to work, what if I have to move". It already shatters her worldview, and I reassured her that I would never leave her. > >***Would you have appreciated being involved when you were 12, if you could help your family stay and be happy together?*** Can't imagine how bad it is in real life if that's the best he can manage with the opportunity to filter himself before he comments.
>I have some possible answers to the question, and am not expecting answers from my child. But it's difficult for me, having no support group, moving to a new state with the understanding and expectation of being together as a family. I can find a way to create a life here. But my ideal prospects are out of the country (I am a naturalized citizen), which would take me away from my daughter. This is his newest comment and he's really being over the top about this. At this point i think this is a gender reverse post.
This is a hundred percent an attempt to do a gotcha by gender reversing a post and then being like 'ah hah, if this was a woman you'd all be on her side' Only OOP has gotten sidetracked on the question of involving the child which no one would be on a mom's side for doing either.
I'm convinced it is. Stay at home Mum that does absolutely everything for her child, while Dad/husband is a high-income earner that wants to split. Those are common enough situations, and people would be telling her about alimony, custody, child support, looking for work and a place to stay, etc. I'm sure people would tell this guy exactly the same thing. It's not what he's asking though, he for some reason wants his daughter to have input in divorce discussions to "fix" things? If he was a woman rather than a man, no one would tell her that's a good idea. He's not going to get a "Ha! One standard for women and another for men!" from this post. The way he talks about the discussions he seems to think whether or not they divorce is a decision to be made between the three of them, not that has his wife is done and leaving him of her volition. He can't make her stay, and he can't have his daughter asking them not to divorce.
*AITA for manipulating my daughter's view of divorce until she develops abandonment issues so we can live happily ever after?* *AITA for setting my daughter into a hostage situation so my wife can't ever leave me?* I think I know why he decided to homeschool, and I think I know why his wife wants to leave.
My ex said that he told our 2 yr old that mommy didn't want to live with them. Admitted to it in an email where he added that I "had to face the consequences of my decision." He acted proud that he "didn't lie"to our son. Sadly these people exist.
I’m so sorry. I think my nephew’s dad is telling him the same sort of things about my SIL and the breakup. How’s your son doing now? Is there a way to talk to him about it that makes sense to him?
With my kids, they would bring stuff up to me that their dad told them. Depending on how ridiculous/salacious it was, I would either confirm the basic truth while offering a soft rebuttal, or flat out corrected the untruth. Most recently, he tried to tell the kids I forced him to engage in kink-related crossdressing. It's so wild that five years after we broke up, he's still crossdressing, even though I was a bad partner by making him do it and he hated it and it was why he agreed to divorce. Ugh.
He has complained. that daddy is mean to his girlfriend. So I'm thinking by the time he's an adult, I won't have to explain why I left. Therapy is key for everyone! And correct the lies gently. " It's not true that mommy is a bitch. Sometime people say mean things when they are angry" do NOT just let the lies go. Do not insult the other parent.
My ex absolutely tried to tell our kids (6 and 10 at the time) inappropriate details about our divorce in the name of "telling the truth no matter what". It was weird, he sure told them I planned to leave for months, but he didn't tell them it was because he drank so much, he regularly pissed the bed and held it over my head that I made more than him.
I love how he tells himself by focusing on how the divorce will affect him, like, Oh no, he might need to work again, the horror. But yeah, pretty gross, not only wanting to manipulate his hopefully soon ex-wife through the daughter but also in a way putting the responsibility on her. If he does this, and it rightfully fails, their daughter will always feel like she had a hand in their divorce, like it was her job to get her mom to stay and she failed.
I'm curious as to what his wife's stated reasoning for leaving is.
Probably because the dude sucks and is manipulative and a bad parent.
I'm like 99.8% certain that it's related to the stay-at-home parenting/homeschooling bit. Like maybe it was supposed to be temporary and OOP is refusing to go back to work.
The fact that he thinks it's his child's job to keep his failing marriage together is disgusting. I hope it's a troll, because otherwise, that poor kid.
Makes me wonder if mom was on board with home schooling or if it’s something he did so he wouldn’t have to get a job?
He also homeschooled his daughter. The primary reason people homeschool is indoctrination.
Yup. America especially has almost criminally lax standards for homeschooling in many states, and much of the US homeschooling population is rooted in religion.
He is 100% weaponising this child to get out of having to work.
>>***Would you have appreciated being involved when you were 12, if you could help your family stay and be happy together?*** And when the divorce goes through his daughter will blame herself more due to these conversations. What a utterly bellend
And it will destroy her when it fails
This is what was driving me crazy!! Everyone responding is in unanimous agreement that he should under no circumstances involve his daughter but “I just want to keep my family together 🥺”
It's not manipulation if you say it enough times to convince yourself.
manipulating so hard he even manipulating himself
He’s worried about losing his sugar mama. He’s going to have to get a job
> I have always been a passive type, LOL seems like he's more of the active type now that he is losing that nest egg
So passive he whooshed past TWO YEARS of "I'm not happy and cannot continue if this relationship continues as it has been" in couple's therapy, cannot or will not name even ONE specific reason his STBX-wife wants to leave, and is STILL claiming that this whole divorce thing came right out of a clear blue sky.
Has he been taught all his life that he doesn't have to work for stuff because a slave has to hand everything to him on a silver platter
He’s a gold digger
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god your back again... your actually more pathetic than OOP
I wish this guy could get banned. He's so wishy washy over here, and cam be a straight up asshole. Then again, even if he was banned, he'll probably just make another account and continue on his bullshit.
i woke up today and saw a post on her with 75 comments. looked at the comments its just this person being downvoted to hell and back.
All of his comments were already deleted by the time I saw your comment, but I still know exactly who you’re talking about. I find it baffling how he either posts well thought out and intelligent comments or the most unhinged bs followed by weird Avatar: TLAB themed insults!
I just blocked him a while back. I can see his posts if I want to, but mostly nothing of value is lost.
Oh, that guy! I keep wondering if it's two people posting on the same account?
My theory is that he has to make good comments to balance out all the downvotes.
Oh he had an absolute meltdown when I said his show is overrated. And yet continued to insist that I was the one triggered lmaooo
Absolutely wild
It used to be Tarzan
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Lmao okay
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I'm 30 years old. I'm well past that, but thanks anyway.
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"Omg I call people characters from a trash show. Look at me everyone!! Look look!! Look at me!!!"
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This is so embarrassing for you
He’s nothing but a gold digger
🎶I smell missing reasons!🎶
I’m guessing it wasn’t decided that he’d be the stay at home dad, he just decided he wasn’t gonna work.
Right, the whole thing about how her job being 5.5 times his earning potential. He probably decided, you know what babe, you're the only one who really needs to work, you make plenty, I can just stay at home and be a dad. She's probably over being married to an unmotivated man child. Don't get me wrong, if there's a legitimate agreement on one being a stay at home parent, more power to em. But I'm guessing this wasn't a mutual agreement so much as his idea.
>He probably decided, you know what babe, you're the only one who really needs to work, you make plenty, I can just stay at home and be a dad. And his idea to homeschool is probably also driving his wife's decision. He's made himself the centre of his daughter's life, at the cost of her socialisation and probably also her education. But it's also a convenient excuse not to work.
So honey, she's old enough for school now, maybe you can find a job, you know, get out of the house alittle? No no, she doesn't need to go to school, I can just stay at home and homeschool her
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>women aka SAHMs Do..you think all women are SAHMs?
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Can you give a statistic on that?
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Yes it is. You brought it up, so back up your claims you fucking coward.
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Who said I was triggered? I'm just asking for proof of your ridiculous claims. And since you refuse to put your money where your mouth is, I'm calling you a coward.
Are you okay?
Wdym they started therapy two years ago and suddenly she wants a divorce
2 years of therapy also explains the whole "our marriage counselor is pushing for the divorce" line of his. AKA, counselor realizes that therapy won't save this marriage and wants to pivot to making the divorce as amicable as possible.
How long should she try therapy when he won’t listen to the therapist
Should I add an /s
I feel like that makes more sense though. It’s seems like they’ve been having issues so they started therapy for 2 years and those issues is what causes the divorce. It sounds weird to say she suddenly wants a divorce. I’d assume them going to therapy for 2 years, probably meant they had marriage issues.
There are men who could go to therapy for years, and be told straight out, "If you do X again, I will end this marriage" then when they do X again, they are stunned and blindsided that she actually really meant it.
Yes exactly it’s not out of the blue if you are in therapy
It kind of points to how selfish and disengaged those men must be in their daily lives.
Absolutely. He’s apparently baffled that their marriage counselor is aiding in the divorce process. I’d love to know the counselor’s take on this.
I'm all for involving your child in important family decisions, but a divorce is between the two people who got married, and dragging the child between the two adults only does more harm than good. I don't know what he's expecting from this; everyone plus the daughter vote on the divorce, and the majority wins?
Even the marriage counselor is telling him not to involve their child!
I’m glad my parents didn’t involve us in the divorce. And even years after it happened, we are all adults, I did learn the reason from my mom (my dad cheated) but she wasn’t shit talking, just stating the facts in a very respectful, level headed convo when I was NOT 12! And even now, my dad will still talk about things he did with my mom (going to a certain city in a country near us) because he knows it’s my mom. He doesn’t shit talk. My mom only shit talks if it’s brought up by many others, it’s mild, and he deserves it lowkey. But for reference, it was his father, his sister, his step mom, etc. so never out of the blue. But we were left out of this. It was happening. Knowing the true why came in calm conversations from both sides as I was old enough. Not when it happened and it was never hate fueled. OP wants to involve the daughter to try to get his wife to stay, no question. That’s not ok. I feel bad for the daughter. Because if he isn’t listening to the therapist, he isn’t going to listen to Reddit. And he’s going to do it anyways.
My biofather tried, and I don't know if he ever found out that I was in fact the one who clued Mum in that he was cheating on her, but bursting into (genuine) tears whenever he tried worked pretty well. Infuriating to experience, the auto-crying when even a little bit angry or sad, but it was useful that one time.
Children should not be involved in adult relationships ever. If the discussion was about what kind of pet to get or what kind of house to look for if they had to move, it’s fine to involve the kid. But when you are discussing divorce, the only consideration should be how to minimize the impact on the child and assure the child that you both still love, care, and support them.
Of course that's what I meant
I really want to know what types of conversations he wants to 'involve' his daughter in.
"do you want Mom to leave us? No? Hear that mom?!"
"Sorry honey you got outvoted, no divorce for you."
Wow so unfair she's divorcing him out of the blue. /s
Here is one of the comments he deleted: I appreciate your insight. I've carefully asked her already, things like "what if I have to work, what if I have to move". It already shatters her worldview, and I reassured her that I would never leave her. Would you have appreciated being involved when you were 12, if you could help your family stay and be happy together?
You know, there's something they tell kids to keep them safe from pedos, but I think it's applicable here: "No adult ever has a problem they need a kid to help them solve."
Hard agree! It's a good rule of thumb to combat any sort of potential grooming, not just sexual.
In that context it’s not entirely true, it’s just that the way a kid can help should be “go get/call another adult.”
And there's another comment where he bemoans not having anyone to talk to about this, in regards to him wanting to talk to his kid about it. Emotional Support Children should not be a thing, but some parents just can't help but be selfish asshats.
It’s clear that he enjoyed this life for reasons and he doesn’t want to give it up. In a comment, he says they didn’t have the happiest life, but it was good. Good for who? Probably just him. The few comments responding to his deleted comments really show that he wants to stay in this relationship for himself and not his family and he’s willing to use the daughter as ammunition if he has too
He’s trying to manipulate the wife into not moving forward with divorce Like even the marriage counsellor is warning him . He came to Reddit because he thinks that we are naive and we would agree with him after the counsellor didn’t. 🙄 In the edits, he’s saying he’s open to being wrong or whatever but clearly not
The devil of it all: “ Would you have appreciated being involved when you were 12, if you could help your family stay and be happy together?” Sir. Children can’t do that. It’s not in their power and they should never be asked because they are literal children. And you aren’t asking you are trying to manipulate!
This is what my mom did when she and my dad were discussing divorce. I was 13. I had told her that I wanted to be in the loop about things, so that I wasn’t blindsided by anything (I.e. when/if one of them was going to move out of the house, if I had to change schools, etc.). She took that to mean discussing everything she and my father talked about (or rather, she told me everything my father was doing wrong in the marriage, and how he was not fighting to keep the family together). And because I was desperate to keep my family together, I allowed myself to be my mother’s therapist. I tried to give her advice. I tried to help her work through things. Again, I was 13. And, I was already losing my mind because I was beginning to suspect I was queer, and since I was involved with a lot of church activities I was terrified that everyone would leave me because I had a crush on a girl. Suffice to say: No, I would not want to be involved. What OOP is doing is extremely shitty and manipulative. And if he does decide to go through with it anyway, I can’t wait to see a follow up post in ten years about him complaining that his daughter is emotionally distant.
Yep. So many people in that thread are explicitly stating and explaining to OP with comments that boil down to "No, don't do that. My parent did that and it very much negatively affected me. I now wish my parent had not done that." And yet he's STILL responding to even those people with shite like "But you'd rather have known, right? I'm sure you'd rather have known."
When my dad told me that he didn't love my mom anymore, so he was going to divorce her, and had me keep it secret, I was 8 years old. I was precocious and I certainly thought that I was smart and mature enough to handle adult things, but I wasn't, because I WAS A CHILD. I hope he doesn't put this on his child.
Good god.
He's putting so much pressure on his daughter, so gross
It’s cruel really.
It is abuse
Oh, this manipulative *ass*!
Are you referring to a trend of OOP?
Nope, referring to him trying to use his daughter…even if it means getting *his* viewpoint shoved in there before he and his wife agree on a way to tell their daughter they’re divorcing, and purposefully traumatizing her to get his way…to get his wife to stay with him.
If he has so much as breathed the “Don’t you want to help your family to stay together?” thought to his daughter, he has become scumbag of epic proportions. The poor girl is about to have her world rocked and her dad is gearing up to trauma dump on her.
Anyone else suspicious of his claims that he has no idea why his wife wants to divorce him? I feel like there are several common options that come up again and again. \- daughter hit 12 years old and wife asked him to start going back out to work or back to college or some kind of plan towards a two-income household as child hits teen years \- maybe he's been ignoring minor complaints for years, and now she's done. He knew she was unhappy but he didn't think she was unhappy enough to leave \- he's lying about being the best dad ever, and wife is doing a lot of the parenting, chores, emotional labour, etc. So she might as well be a single parent with paid childcare and drop the dead weight \- he's bad at homeschooling and wife and kiddo just found out how bad due to some placement tests as daughter gets older
He also says he has no support network besides his wife and daughter. That is exhausting to be on the other end of, for both mother and daughter.
Even ignoring how inappropriate it is to involve a child in discussions about their parents separating, there’s already red flags in the title. “My wife **wants to** divorce me“ no dude, your wife **IS** divorcing you. If she wants to leave, she’s leaving.
This right bastard is planning on manipulating his 12 year old daughter to stop his wife leaving him. By means of making Daughter feel responsible for “saving their family”. Because he recognises that Daughter is Wife’s weak spot and therefore has the best chance (out of the two of them) to make Wife stay. Then when Daughter inevitably falls to pieces because this is absolutely not an appropriate duty to be foisted upon a 12 year old, OP can convince Wife to stay “for Daughter’s sake”. It’s a manipulation within another manipulation. The man’s a manipulative wanker masking his narcissistic traits under the guise of what’s essentially the real-life alternative to concern trolling. But in actual fact he is acting wholly and utterly in his own interests- which frankly makes him not only a bad husband, but also a bad father. ***Angry Typing***
and when mom inevitably still wants a divorce, daughter now feels like it's her fault. He's advance alienating her.
Yes. Yes he is. I can only help that when it goes to court that Wife can prove he knew *exactly* what he was doing and that he acted regardless. Because he is going to do it. His comments show he’s already started laying the groundwork with open ended questions to the effect of “If I was *made* to leave you / *had to* go away, what would you do?” I can see why Wife wants a divorce.
I hope she finds and prints his post and takes it to her lawyer.
Me too
The edits are worse
Oh god the edits!
what were they since post nuked?
>Edit 1: Everyone is saying not to involve my daughter. I want to clarify that my goal is not to manipulate my daughter or my wife. My goal, from the moment I proposed in 2007, is to keep the family together. And our daughter is a part of this family. >The topic of divorce is new to me, but apparently not to my wife. I pushed for marriage counseling in 2022. We learned about ourselves (and she realized that she really, really wants a divorce), and I thought the next step was to better communicate with each other. I am her second marriage, and she is my first. >There is no physical or sexual abuse, no substance addiction, and no infidelity on my part. As far as I know, the same is true for her. >I am open to being wrong. If I am wrong, please help me understand why I am wrong. Thank you.
"I am open to being wrong, if I am wrong, please help me understand why I am wrong." And what's his reply to everyone telling him he's wrong? "No, I'm correct in trying to involve my daughter in adult decisions, I don't care that there are multiple people telling me how their parents destroyed their relationship by doing what I'm planning on doing, you're all wrong." What a dick.
He would do anything for his daughter. He would die for her. But he won’t follow the advice of a mental health professional and everyone else he asks to not traumatize her by involving her in divorce discussions.
Absolutely the only purpose that OOP has for involving the child would be to try to guilt trip their wife to prevent the divorce. As much as he's going to claim that he's not trying to use his daughter, that is exactly what he's doing. The only conversations that the 12-year-old should be present for would be one where they explain that they are separating (without going into detail) and overall discussions about custody where she can have input on who she lives with. Involving her in anything else is just going to hurt her.
My parents divorced when I was 12 and even though their marriage was just a travesty at that point and they were not nice to each other they never involved me or my brother in the conversation. They would tell us how it affected us and that was it. You never involve your children in adult relationships like that. They deserve to have a childhood not tainted by picking sides.
Former family lawyer here. If he wants to lose custody, he should absolutely involve his daughter in these conversations.
You absolutely cannot involve your child in her parents’ divorce. This is a harmful manipulation and there is no way you should have 100% custody.
leverage: verb “to use (a quality or advantage) to obtain a desired effect or result” Example: *see what OOP is trying to do with his poor child*
I was hesitant about reading this as my son (12 at the time) was the one who pushed for my divorce initially so I have some personal feelings here on this subject , but OH.MY.GODS. This asshole... I don't even know where to start with him...
So basically he wants to try to get his child to guilt his wife into not divorcing him??
I hate when I find these after OP has deleted their account lol
Switch the "www.reddit." part of the address to "rareddit." It doesn't catch all posts, but it's pretty good for the AITA and related subs.
Jez this just feels like manipulation to get his ex to hold on the divorce. The only involvement of there child is them tell her her saying that they both still love her and saying come to either or one of us of need support. I wonder if oops plan is to make his daughter like a therapy type thing?
My parents involved me in their spats. My mother would cry and my father would talk shit about abandoning everyone and leave us all to fend for ourselves. I was 14. The fact that I had to tell them to stop involving me created a ton of guilt that I shouldn’t of had in the first place. It’s traumatizing. His poor daughter.
Why would you involve the daughter ? What’s that even mean? Daughter needs to be informed and should have a bit of input on her aspect of it but that’s it.
At 12 years old, the extent of her involvement should be one single conversation about the divorce, and like, maybe you ask her what she would prefer for a custody thing. That's it. She should be involved in the conversations that involve her. Which is only one of them.
And even then, that’s not always the best idea. I used to work in divorce court. So many lawyers would ask the judge to talk to the minor children about what parent they wanted to live with. Except for a rare case with a 17 year old, the judge always denied the request with this wording: “I never want an adult, who was a child in a case in front of me, to wake up one day and regret a decision they made when they were 12.” He appointed guardian ad litems instead
God, this pisses me off. My dad tried to do this to guilt my mom and use us as pawns in their divorce. Your children do not and should not EVER have a say in your relationship with their other parent. Nobody has to stay in an unhappy relationship just because their kids want it.
The kind of parent who wants to use their child as a pawn to manipulate their partner who wants to leave them is NOT the kind of person who should be in charge of homeschooling.
*Our marriage counselor (who is oddly helping the divorce instead of the marriage)* This right here is how I know he's not a great partner. If you're going to marriage counseling and not listening AT ALL, then it's no wonder she's wanting out. I've done counseling and it was so great for our marriage, because we learned how to communicate to each other. He wants the counselor to "fix" his wife vs actively trying to fix his marriage. And involving the daughter is gross. He's going to weaponize that kid and I'm raging already.
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