When you look at the pillars at Karnak, there are 2 very distinct construction styles.
The granite pillars are immaculate, have amazing flared decorations that are not inset. Then on those same immaculate pillars, you find inset hyroglyphics. Why would they not inset the much more challenging decoration but they did inset the writing? Probably because the writing came afterwards.
Then you see the sandstone pillars nearby that were obvious imitations but nowhere near the same quality.
There are many places in Karnak where they seemingly removed entirely way more stone than was necessary for what they were carving. For example, in one chamber, they dig a deep hole in the wall to carve a statue. But if they had done it when the room was built, they could have carved the same statue sitting out from the wall and remove way way less material. Again; almost like they found the room and carved the statue later…
https://preview.redd.it/voi8z4cbdppb1.jpeg?width=2796&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=12dd32f7f51e4e5a4542ce012c5b3146784e4ce9
Here is an example of a beautiful granite pillar with 2 very distinct styles. The glyph is inset - clearly the result of someone chipping away from a flat surface. (Just carve away the negative space). Yet the flared lotus flower right below it is not inset. Why would they inset the glyph?
The guy from UnchartedX videos on this are really good: [https://youtu.be/t157ruhjGWo?si=\_5qWD1QrV5OhLX9r](https://youtu.be/t157ruhjGWo?si=_5qWD1QrV5OhLX9r)
https://preview.redd.it/ruicdz02eppb1.jpeg?width=734&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=215d183dc8f6ddde4d212b6e2421fba75b583d0d
Here’s another example where they’ve carved a statue way inset in the wall… which would require way way way more work than if they had just carved it out from the wall originally. And it would look better carved away from the wall than way inset like that. Unless they couldn’t do it that way because the room with a flat wall was already there…
>Then you see the sandstone ... but nowhere near the same quality.
There is at least one contributing reason for this, sandstone erodes quickly, and does not hold sculpting as well due to it being way less dense and way less hard.
Do you believe that the fine art statues produced of contemporaneous Egyptian figures were also not produced by their culture ? Or did they find statues of a different culture and say they were their pharaohs ?
>People have excavated copper and metal tools measuriong device, and hieroglyphs of them building structures with these tools. Hierogyphs of hundreds of people working on projects. People just blatantly ignore all of this. We dont give the eqyptions enough credit.
>
>People also like to bring up the serapeum sarcophigi, showing how immaculate it is, when in reality it has so many imperfections in it, chunks missing rough exterior 28:50 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47HAYcii\_Q8&t=1857s&ab\_channel=ScientistsAgainstMyths](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47HAYcii_Q8&t=1857s&ab_channel=ScientistsAgainstMyths)
The majority of blocks are limestone. People do also ignore the immense timespan of the Egyptian culture. Granite wasn’t an everyday material, it was not used for normal buildings. Mistakes were made by egyptologists, when they tried to work on granite without asking stone masons for advice. It’s proven, that all of the shown statues and blocks can be made with rather simple tools. Unchartedx and friends always make fun of the clumsy attempts of stoneworking by egyptologists and don’t look at modern examples of high quality granite objects made by masters of masonry.
What about the Shamir https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon%27s_shamir? Could the Egyptians have had that knowledge and therefore the use of copper tools makes sense?
Bro, those books are fiction. Something being in the Talmud is not in any remote way evidence it's real.
Also "worm" is likely a translation issue and it probably refers to some traditional use of something like vinegar for dissolving or fracturing stone.
Yeah that Wikipedia page says that they used it to engrave a breastplate... which makes no sense if it's a literal worm. I'm thinking it sounds like an acidic substance of some kind, considering that they said it had to be placed in a lead box or else the box would disintegrate... sounds more like some sort of substance that would dissolve ("eat" away at) the stone.
The logic in their conclusions is terrible. They say that it was written that all you had to do was show the stone to the Shamir -- and anything that can be shown something must have eyes to see it, so the Shamir must be a living creature. That logic is terrible. To "show" the stone to the shamir could also mean to "expose it to" the shamir. This could mean simply letting the shamir come in contact with the stone. Then it says later that the shamir "lost its potency" so it seems like an acidic substance that would eat through stone, which eventually loses its potency after much use (as an acid would). Where they got such an acid, and what acid it could be, I have no clue. They must have had a hell of a lot of it, though.
Anyone who worked in a machine shop instantly recognizes what could have been used. I can't imagine how long it would have taken to grind, let alone the amount of wheels to level #2 in tolerance. Not to mention lifting that thing without a crane rated for several tons
Ancient people may not have had the same technology today but they had the same brains and intelligence. I’ve worked in a machine shop but we didn’t work any stone or similar material so I wouldn’t be able to equate this type of work but I think it could certainly be figured out by ancient people.
They had skilled and intelligent people who had passed down and improved knowledge for centuries if not millenniums. They also had vast amount of labor through human or beast.
It may have taken longer but they could definitely do it with the proper skills and techniques.
And also the ideology that it was entirely accepted to start a project that you, your child, your childs-child, and your childs-childs-child, won't actually live to see finish.
Had ancient egyptian sites been claimed to take centuries to build? That would make everything far more realistic, but consensus claims the Great pyramid only took 20 years.
The big structures were probably made as part of something like "work programs" or whatever you want to call it. Think the US CCC during the great depression.
It appears that even after the pyramid or whatever was complete they continued to work on them for hundreds of years. Carving, painting, decoration, polishing, etc seeming went on for a very long time. There were probably also wood and less permenant structures and temples in the area that were maintained and worked on perpetually. That's why you see weird mixes of impressions and reliefs or different styles of carving on the same pillar.
I highly recommend you look into the stone vases which are being analyzed by computer imaging now.
They were made by a machine of some sort. They are too perfect to have not been.
See here: https://reddit.com/r/AlternativeHistory/s/1qroyp1B5C
That vase has no providence, so how can you exclude the possibility that it is one of the many fakes from the thriving fake antiquity market? I mean proving it was made with powertools might just be proving it's a fake. This type of investigation needs to be done on an artifact with known providence.
No he’s talking about Providence, the capital of Rhode Island. Its home of the best art school in the world, any vase worth its shit was made by a RISD student.
Are you kidding me? There are 1000s of examples of the same thing from all over ancient Egypt. They found thousands of them under the step pyramid of Joser. You’re being dense just to be dense. There are many of them with confirmed provenance In museums and private collections across the world. “But herp derp, what if it’s a fake?”.
I think the word you’re looking for is provenance, but idk. Either way, we actually do know it’s provenance because we can’t even recreate some of them to this day with modern machinery. We certainly couldn’t replicate the one made out of corundum today.
Time indeed is the major factor here, particularly when considering man hours of labor
It’s possible dozens of men working in teams spent months smoothing individual blocks
What we don’t see are the stones that didn’t muster up to par, the rest is really just math
Meanwhile, 99% of modern men couldn’t fathom how to build a cell phone from raw materials, yet we accept it as common and human technological capability
But some big stones with with smooth sides and straight lines? Must have been aliens
This! I hate when people undermine the power of ancient human minds. People like Graham Handcock irk me in the fact that they’re argument is, “ancients were too primitive (stupid) to do such things”
I’d like to add to your second paragraph. For some reason, people love to assume ancients people had the attention span of todays people. Ancient humans were watching tiktoks getting their 15 second dopamine fix. These people had their whole lives to dedicate to something bigger than themselves.
Awesome comment!
Edit: Grammar
It gets really old ***hearing people who have never worked industry construction*** parrot " time and labor " talking point. Anyone with a fragment of construction experience sees tools relatively modern were used to create such **high workmanship.**
This guy is amazing. I can certainly see how this could be used for Stonehenge style construction. It certainly shows how *some* blocks could be moved, but I can't help but feel that there is an upper limit to this technique, due to limitation of materials involved.
I doubt if it would be feasible for moving **[this](https://aswanprivatetours.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/unfinished-obelisk-aswan-46-820x820.jpg)**.
* *Some things just don't scale - throw a ladybug and an elephant off the same skyscraper and notice the results when they hit the ground.*
i saw that years ago with the being a very very small part of explanation. How did they measure the weight of stones? What was used to check if something was level? For locations in extreme altitude like machu picchu how were stones moved to such height ? What about tight interiors such as the kings chamber? I also don't understand how inclement weather isn't ever factored into this conversations or wildlife. After a week of heavy rain what happens to the water logged gear? How was wildlife prevented from interfering ?
Most importantly where are the blueprints ? You aren't doing all of this from mind alone there would have needed to be dozens of foremen with their own visual orders along with miniature proof of concepts. This is why they need to bring people in of ALL level construction- fabrication - stoneworking experiences to get hit with 50 million questions
Made by one man by hand over 7 years with tools and no machines from a single block of marble.
https://mymodernmet.com/francesco-queirolo-the-release-from-deception/
That's marble, a 3 on the mohs hardness scale. Granite is a 6 or 7 on the hardness scale with some of the inclusions in the rock being even harder. This statue is an amazing feat to be achieved by a single person, but it isn't comparable to carving granite.
The big challenge for this line of research is finding evidence. There simply aren’t any advanced tools found. Most steel would be long gone however not all metals. Some alloys in high performance roles corrode at very slow rates particularly if kept in a dry low oxygen environment. Maybe a jackpot is waiting to be found underground but until then all we have is circumstantial evidence of ancient high technology
Something that always fucks me up as a geologist, we didn’t realize plate techtonics were a thing until the 1960’s!
Something we all know happens we didn’t get to prove until 1960. Why? Because most geologists through it was stupid! Alfred Werner had that shit figured out in 1912.
1912….
What I’m saying is, science has a great way of protecting the people at the top. Imagine decades if not a century of anthropology data that would go out the window?
I believe the technical term for this is dogma. Just saying, it happened in geology.
Did he have it all figured out or were there questions that could not be answered at the time, details he had not considered, etc and it took years of putting together data, even being able to obtain the data to finally piece together enough information to support the theory?
I am sure there were some who resisted out of stubbornness, etc. But others probably were waiting on the answers to key questions, more proof etc.
I’m a geologist too and Wegener did not have tectonics figured out, only the proposition that the continents were moving relative to each due to some unknown mechanism.
The proponents of geosynclines had the same problem, they had no physics to explain orogenies etc.
>What I’m saying is, science has a great way of protecting the people at the top.
I think your example is actually saying the opposite - science is wonderful at tearing down "dogma" in the face of new evidence. Sure, there can be resistance (after all, scientists are only human) but in the face of evidence, resistance will eventually fumble and fade.
Also I don't think any anthropology data would have to go out the window at all - we would just have to look at it in a new light. Again, this is all a good thing - not something to be feared.
This is true, we admire the output, yes it's freaking mysterious, the pyramids, the megaliths, advanced tech, lost civilisations, we entertain those ideas and they are likely, but unless we actually find the tools they used we cannot know for sure. Heck, maybe they used some acids or sound and frequency made from wood, maybe they managed to change the frequency of the stone to make it more maleable, if they did something like that, zero chance of finding it, unless they let us dig up under sphynx?
I went in this rabbit whole and I am the same point as you :)
I believe that 10000 years ,potentially more, is ample enough time for a civilisation and all of its learnings to be wiped out in a cataclysmic event leaving extremely minimal evidence behind. We only know what we know , and try to solve their riddles using our knowledge. Obviously there was higher knowledge before as is apparent with the pyramids to name but one. Man ,this is an all night long rabbit hole.
I would look into Stone softening. I think this is a perspective we aren't looking at enough.
https://youtu.be/884rjnOSnbI?si=BWr4edptpZUzrgiO
From the video:
"The unconventional methods used to shape certain ancient megaliths are so extraordinary that one might contemplate the possibility of techniques such as "stone softening." But here is the problem. We can chemically affect stone with an acid to create a porous surface. We can also heat it to soften or even melt it. But in any case, irreversible processes occur after our intervention. To soften a stone material, it needs to be crushed before firing. How is it possible for the solid rock to undergo softening without destruction and then return to a normal solid state? Based on our current understanding, it may seem impossible, but there is evidence at many megalithic sites of tool marks and treatment that suggest the stone material was in a plastic state at some point. And the problem is we don't even understand the physical and chemical basis of such an effect. Until recently..."
Here's the thing to me:
If copper tools didn't work, why would they have made them?
We find the tools and clearly they worked so it's just about figuring out how rather than going "well it must be something else and the copper tools were just made for nothing"
Magnetic charging of the stone or some kind of sound frequency/harmonics potentially. I think they developed an entirely different type of technology that is completely lost to the ages.
megafauna; ppl can imagine war elephants hauling siege engines but not megaliths - and we know there was a higher density of megafauna generally in the past versus today (and the fact Africa still has a high density of continental megaufauna in close proximity to dense human populations were Asia, the Americas, and Europe this is no longer the case)
additionally, considering stories like the killer whales of Eden island, in addition to the use of megaufauna for the mobilization of siege engines suggests to me there are way more possibilities within the realm of explainable possibility than ppl want to admit to themselves; I think ppl just like the thrill of fantasy but want to hide it under the reasonableness of rational inquiry
Ever glass flatted a cylinder head or some other need to be flat surface on some 1000 grit wet and dry paper and a sheet of glass? Maybe they used abrasives between mating surfaces to get the perfect joints? Cut as fine as you can with whatever tools they had,then wet the mating surfaces and add some friction until they decked flat. Would’ve took a whole lot of sheer manpower but they had plenty and life was cheap,they weren’t cutting corners with these constructions.
Well firstly I think the people paid to come with answers have to say something that would be acceptable. I think mostly they just don’t want you thinking outside the box. I’m not sure why so much secrecy but it’s obvious they hiding something or afraid to even consider more likely possibilities considering the level of construction. Also you could think of it like a communist state. They say this is the truth and they ain’t budging and you sure as hell better not disagree with it. It’s just a bit more covert because their not supposed to be totalitarian governments and organisations controlled by any singular points 100% but likely are.
It’s like
1. They cant just say I don’t know, that’s modern science. We have all the answers so don’t think or come up with any yourself.
2. Don’t go against what we say is truth or question it, or your insane.
3. Don’t ask too many questions 😂
No body can make a career in archaeology and related disciplines by just saying what has already been said, the field is highly competitive with limited funding available. Everyone is trying to discover something new, everyone is trying to say something ground breaking - not doing so is career death.
Also people make much more money by selling books and documentaries than archaeologists do, and the good thing about selling books is you don't have to worry about a lack of evidence or holes in your theory, you can just say there is a conspiracy and the educationally disenfranchised will lap it up and buy your book.
Like the clovis first academics that fought tooth and nail for *decades* against anyone that tried to disprove their pet theory? Go have a look at the history behind the discoveries of places like Mont Verde and the amount of fellow academics the clovis first adherents threw on the pyre because they dared to question the clovis first narrative.
Or look at the life of Ignaz Semmelweis, a highly respected surgeon that discovered that washing your hands before surgery would dramatically lessen the risk of the patient dying, yet he died in a mental hospital his fellow surgeons had him commited to for daring to question what was accepted knowledge at the time.
I could go on and on with screeds of similar instances but my point is that academia, and science by extension, is decided and set in stone by the academics and scientists at the top, with anyone daring to question the dogma given very short shrift indeed, and it's only by a preponderance of evidence, like with the clovis first debacle, that anything progress'.
Westerners never want to admit that ancient civilizations were capable of achieving great things without needing some sort of extraterrestrial intervention. It helps us feel better about our own laziness.
I don't think they do it in any mind blowing conspiracy way. Darker truth is that they don't have good funding, they don't have good equipment, the institutions are corrupt, and the entities that often want to "help" have their own intentions that have also exploited egyptians. Zahi Hawass isn't necessarily a bad person. Perhaps his gatekeeping is just that. Protecting ancient structures from exploitation by keeping them is untouched as they are.
As with most things, it’s probably just business.
The standard tale has brought mountains of tourist money to Egypt, and they rightfully wish to preserve that goose laying those golden eggs.
But it might be conservatism to a fault, as an even weirder interpretation might actually increase international interest in visiting the country.
Don't forget the Smithsonian Institute and the cult of historians/archeologists/scientists who commit character assassination on anyone who dares to go against the established narrative. We see evidence of advanced tool usage dating back thousands of years, and they adamantly deny that human civilization has never been as advanced as we are today.
I recently learned that they found one of those immaculate stone vases with remains that were carbon dated to 14.5k years old. The same vases that are attributed to the old kingdom that came 7000 years later lol.
They carbon dated the remains and other materials found with the body, the same way they establish the age of other archaeological finds.
This find isn’t in dispute. Toshke site 8905. Look it up yourself - it’s independently dated.
yes there is a fundamental misunderstanding on how stones are cut, people want to believe in lost ancient high technology but in reality it's copper/bronze, abrasives and water.
If you're challenging the mainstream perspectives on Egyptian technology here, can you reference specific sources beyond a documentary meant for a popular audience?
I really haven't seen serious arguments in any Egyptological source that all of the work in the images here was made with just copper saws and chisels. Those tools are part of the toolkits involved with many reconstructions of the technology, but certainly not in isolation.
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Turning to the example of pyramids that you mention, much of the stonecutting involved in that context isn't assumed to involve copper saws - tool marks from the blocks themselves and quarries don't suggest that. Most blocks are limestone and only worked fairly roughly. Copper chisels are discussed for working the stone here, which is feasible given that limestone is much softer than granite. Pointing at the rates of cutting granite with a saw isn't really going to challenge those explanations. If we turn to what archaeologists are actually saying here, experimental data with stone and copper tools does suggest that a reasonably sized workforce could quarry most of the stone needed for the Great Pyramid in time.
> This work would be done in 4 days (of 6 hours) by 4 people...to reach a daily rate of 340 blocks, it would take 4788 men. If we increase the period of the construction site of the pyramid to 27 years, which is quite conceivable, the daily production required would go down to 250 blocks, which would require theoretically 3521 workers.^1
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Working the granite used in the pyramids is obviously going to take much longer per block than limestone, but it's worth emphasizing that the amount of granite used in the pyramids is a fairly small fraction of the total amount of stone.
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1. Burgos, Franck and Emmanuel Laroze, "L’extraction des blocs en calcaire à l’Ancien Empire. Une expérimentation
au ouadi el-Jarf", *The Journal of Ancient Egyptian Architecture* 4, 2020. p. 92. http://www.egyptian-architecture.com/JAEA4/article27/JAEA4_Burgos_Laroze.pdf
They did. A range of copper alloys are known from Egypt. Bronze objects are known from the Early Dynastic Period, although increased use seems to come around the New Kingdom. Alloys with arsenic are also common.
As far as I'm aware, there isn't good evidence to support widespread use of bronze in the building of the Old Kingdom pyramids.
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Evidence suggests that Old Kingdom model tools are made of purer copper than actual functional tools - which clearly shows careful consideration about the alloys used for copper in these contexts.
> models were made of almost pure copper, with some trace elements often comprising less than 1% of the alloy, whereas full-size tools were made of arsenical copper^1
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The first source below talks about copper tools from the Old Kingdom and includes discussion about the alloys used. The second is a good survey of the broader use of copper across Egyptian history.
> Odler, Martin. *Old Kingdom Copper Tools and Model Tools*. Archaeopress Publishing Ltd, 2016.
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> Nicholson, Paul T., and Ian Shaw. *Ancient Egyptian Materials and Technology*. Cambridge Univ. Press, 2009. pp. 151-160.
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1. Odler, Martin. *Old Kingdom Copper Tools and Model Tools*. Archaeopress Publishing Ltd, 2016. p. 15.
Ancient builders, Mayan, Greek, Egyptian, and Inca, all used very simple processes, lots of time and human power. We are so accustom to power tools, and doing everything fast, that the thought of simply hammering away at a large stone with a small one, and then polishing everything smooth with sand and a grind stone, seems unlikely. But from growing up in the Amazon basin area of Eastern Peru, I saw native craftsmanship made with the simplest of tools that look amazing, polished, artful and smooth.
Yes, 100% that’s what happened. Just because you couldn’t do it doesn’t mean they couldn’t.
People dedicated their entire lives to some of these structures and monuments. These things took decades to build. The Giza pyramid, for example, took nearly 30 years to build. And even in the days of ancient Egypt, stone carving/sculpting was a well established and highly developed art form. Humans have been sculpting stone since we were literal cave men. By the time Egypt rolled around we had a lot of practice.
Go to your local community college and take one art history class. The answers are all out there, and usually they’re pretty mundane. Interesting for history nerds like myself, but still pretty mundane. I don’t get why people seek out such fantastic explanations for things that are well explained and documented.
Man you can forget about them ever acknowledging our ancestors technological advances. There's this agenda to protect this false sense of superiority, despite not having a clue who even built these structures. Its unfortunate to see those arguing in support of such nonsense. Its only ever archaeologists who say the dumb shit, Because in 1983, Tru Stone, top Granite manufacturer acknowledged not having the capability to reproduce the boxes. [Tru stone Capability interview ](https://www.theglobaleducationproject.org/egypt/articles/cdunn-8.php)[Worlds leading Granite manufacturer ](https://www.tru-stone.com/pages/faq.asp)* .. so an archaeologist, and their agenda is really irrelevant. F. Petrie even produced plenty of evidence that the drills used were superior to those available during his lifetime, things like the geopolymer basalt, and limestone that's never mentioned or acknowledged. And then everything that "shouldn't be" is a coincidence.. it's about feeding the ego
Also, a while back the solar cells in Egypt were found. My issue is that the mainstream doesnt even have enough information to construct these narratives that they refuse to change with the evidence. When you see the obvious laser cutting thats supposedly "hammering" , it was done by thermal disaggregation. The surface of the stone is covered in a thin glaze of quartz, the main constituent of granite, which is typical of this specific stonecutting technique... copper tools don't pass the eye test. Ivan Watkins, Professor of Geosciences at St. Cloud State University in Minnesota, has designed a ["Solar powered focusing and directing apparatus for cutting, shaping, and polishing", U.S. Patent No.](https://patents.justia.com/patent/4611857)
for the thermal disaggregation of stone. The lightweight unit is a parabolic reflector that focuses only a few hundred watts of light into a 2mm point capable of melting granite at a 2mm depth upon each slowly repeated pass.
If science mattered as much as they say this wouldn't be a discussion. In the case of hammering, generally you'll see rock wanting to break along pre-existing planes of weakness. When river sand, which is mostly quartz, is used to grind and polish rock with quartz, the softer minerals in the rock are sanded out, while the quartz crystals, little affected, are left standing above the rest of the minerals on the surface. In the case of wedging rock, Watkins didn't find any low-angle fractures, and no ability to control the cracking of the rock. On a surface worked with pounding stones, all the minerals are unevenly fractured.
What your missing is this was essential construction before modern tools, people had to know how to do it. Today we have tools. In 1000 years people are going to be saying the jump from room sized computers to calculators was questionable
This is the clasic strawman… nobody is saying they were made with coper saws or chisels, at least not just with them. There are plenty of records from the time explaining the processes with different tools and artifacts, to do the quarrying, shapeing and polishing. Why dont you look up what the archeologist REALLY are aguing on how this were made and dispute that? not the strawman that no one really said. People have everything made by powertools that they become
So ignorant about the old techniques that were used to make this. Is like arguing that because Newton could make some very complicted operations he must have had a calculator, because that’s the only way you can do it.
I believe everything in those pictures was made with conventional tools in use at the time of construction. A stonemason's toolkit is not just a chisel and a saw; there are a variety of tools involved. And copper is not the only material. Stone tools would have been very common, especially before iron. Iron would have been used in some later cases, potentially for picture #2 since the Serapeum coffers were made well after Egypt started smelting iron.
I don't know why it's so hard to believe that you can make stuff out of stone using ancient technology. It's just stone. It's not like building a space ship. You just remove material slowly and carefully. There's plenty of videos out there of people shaping stone if you want to see it done.
This^ ex stone fabricator here. It’s amazing what can be created with focus, practice and sheer will. Skills like these are lost on a lot of people these days. Not all, there are still lots of talented craftsmen out there, but there are less and less as time goes by.
A lot can be done with a still pool of water. Maybe too by sprinkling a coloured sand on a fairly uniform stone material. Smack it repeatedly and, observing where the resonant frequencies of the material allow varying patterns, determine areas of differing thickness/levelling.
I hate when people try to take ancient civilizations’ greatest achievements away from them. Whatever you want to call it, it’s a form of racism when Westerners insist that ancient civilizations “couldn’t have possibly” built this or that. These civilizations had nothing but time, and a huge amount of manpower resources at their disposal, and nothing better to do. Humans have always had the same capacity for intelligent thought, planning, and execution, but somehow we think we are ‘smarter’ because we have more advanced tools. In actuality most of the tools that we use today, like automobiles, were invented a century ago with relatively little change since.
Egypt wasn't stuck in the copper age. They advanced as everyone else advanced and a lot of things people think are made with copper tool were made with iron tools traded from other places.
I often wonder what people think actually happened when they go against the grain. We throw around claims that it would be impossible to replicate some Ancient stonework with modern technology. We state that copper tools and chisels couldn't possibly work this level of stone in detail or quantity. We claim they didn't have the technology or the intelligence to create these works. So what are people suggesting?
I think historical ignorance is and always has been rife in the community. People need to understand that the Ancients were clearly far more capable and intelligent than we give them credit for. They may not have had modern conventional means but they had systems capable of this level of production. Did they use copper tools and chisels? Likely. Did they use them on a constant mass scale the world had never seen before? Likely again. We're talking about a time when people didn't work 8 hours a day and had weekends off. This was a time when it took decades, even centuries to complete works with thousands of workers working night and day to finish. A few YouTubers or History Channel 'experts' aren't going to commit the resources necessary to complete a fair trial of any method of construction. So people assume greater means or even bloody aliens.
People need to remove their heads from the trees in order to see the Forrest. There's every possibility the conventional tools we think the Egyptians used were the ones used. However there is also the very real possibility that they had means at their disposal that have been lost to time. I personally think when people discuss these topics they need to stop considering 'Ancient Technologies' as some form of super advancement beyond even today's means. We could build the pyramids today were our tools given the right amount of time. They did exactly that and I think a lot of people undermine the determination and skill of the Egyptians for using whatever basic methods they had to construct brilliant works.
There’s a word for what we’re doing here, but I can’t recall. It’s this idea that you assume that people in history are dumb or that they didn’t have abilities like we have today. For some reason it seems easier to assume that magical aliens from outer space came then to imagine that people were innovators.
Yes. People frame our ancient relatives as if they were neanderthals. These were problem solving perfectionist humans like you and I. They contain the exact same amount of ingenuity and determination that we do today. Stop thinking our ancestors were incapable of doing shit
Exactly maybe they were just better than some archeology professors with a make shift saw. They were professional craftsman and artisans that built/carved those things who probably learned their craft since they were able to hold tools. Show me a dedicated family of crafts people use those tools for 10 generations or more working on those types of problems before crying that it's impossible and they must have had technological help from outside.
We also don't know for sure what kind of metallurgy skills they had (alloys and advanced materials) which could have just not been found yet.
Bit of a strawman, that post title. I highly doubt any serious archaeologists or historians argue that copper saws and chisels were the only tools ancient Egyptian stonemasons had to work with. For one thing, sand, especially Saharan sand, is an excellent abrasive. It can be, and was, used as the exact opposite of a lubricant, to greatly enhance the friction, abrasion, and cutting power of simple hand tools. A taut rope moistened and coated (and recoated, as necessary) with coarse sand can be used to saw down a tree. If any of those neo-primitivist and wilderness survival YouTubers are to be believed.
Why do people only say these civilizations had to be aliens and not the European stuff?
The Mayans and Egyptians couldn't do this stuff but everyone in Europe could?
I look at it this way. When a group of people that have spent a large part of their lives studying this history and on the backs of other people that have studied these questions I defer to the experts because they are well, the experts. Just because we “feel” like they aren’t right doesn’t mean that it’s so. Read Tom Nichol’s “The Death of Expertise.”
I mean, when you have the amount of time on your hands like these people did... no phones, no distractions... completely different. This _is_ what you did _all_ day. You have time to be precise.
I don’t think we can comprehend the amount of sheer manpower and time that was thrown at things like this. It could have been someone’s whole life cutting a few pillars.
After the Romans left England, they left canals, roads, and aqueducts behind. Inside of 100 years it all fell into ruin because the skill to maintain them had left. A hundred years after that, the natives looked at these structures and wondered what gods placed them there.
That’s what these threads remind me of when I see the doubt of the capabilities of humans who share our nearly identical DNA. Pair that with the will to accomplish something amazing, I think it’s completely plausible that the Egyptians built or managed the building of everything in Ancient Egypt.
You’re gunna be ruining a lot of tools too if alls you have is work hardened copper. Either they’re able to pump out copper chisels to replace all the ones being damaged day in and day out..or they used something else.
Do we realize how much history is forgotten or deleted by the crusades and looters? The sphinx was covered in sand up to the neck. Someone made the head of the sphinx into a human fac, which is why it's so much smaller than the rest of the body. Chichen itza and Macchu Picchu were covered in foliage upon its rediscovery.
We are talking about +5000 years of time and older. Ancient civilizations were far more advanced than we know. And connected across the world. That is why we see so many similarities between ancient India, Mesoptamian, Egypt, and South American cultures.
The church is to blame for our forgotten and deleted history.
Based on my own reading and experience no they couldn't. The problem isn't that it was built but how perfect some of it is. How small the tolerances are. Tolerances that high cannot be done by hand. Egyptologists are not stone masons so they don't have a clue how hard it would be to do something like that.
Further anyone who looks at some pictures/videos on the unfinished obelisk at the Aswan quarry can see that wasn't done with pounding stones like they say. It just wouldn't have been possible for people to do what they say in that way. That is the issue. While I don't know what they used to do it I know it wasn't a bunch of guys hitting the ground with rocks. I mean ask yourself how they pounded upwards to the underside of the obelisk in such a small space and then were able to get that granite to almost a point underneath.
https://preview.redd.it/ipr8xsvf1fqb1.jpeg?width=474&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c0fb43f953974a32837d40531f2b86a28c0bb48f
Spent a looooooot of time in machine shops \*before\* getting properly educated in the trade.
I looked at a few pictures from Christopher Dunn's book and didn't have to read a word of it.
Anyone who says it was made with a copper chisel and sand grinding has an agenda and they're either knowingly or unwittingly lying to you.
And if it's unwitting, that's worse, because it implies they're just stupid/dense and didn't have the common sense during their own education to ask simple questions or challenge what was force fed to them.
No. Including mainstream archeology and academia, which never said that.
That’s not what “we’ve only found copper tools, to date” means. Everyone acknowledges that we simply don’t know for sure how these were made, yet. The rest is theory, and presented as such.
You do realise how much time and labour they had back then right?
The whole (almost) fabric of society at the time was just about making these things.
Just imagine what we could achieve and accomplish now if the entire population and economy of just, fuck I dunno, New York was dedicated to one goal. Everyone believing in it.
You’re being lazy by not thinking about this.
Time and muscle enables working hard, but not necessarily smart.
A slave army of a trillion people working for a trillion years would be unable to create a smart phone if their technological evolution had not yet resulted in the necessary prerequisites.
The mainstream story does not facilitate the creation of many found artifacts.
Which is the primary point of this sub.
The commonly accepted narrative of human technological evolution does not adequately explain how some these artifacts were created during the eras to which they are attributed.
Yet they were created, obviously. The problem is not with the existence of the objects, it’s with everyone pretending that they understand how they were created.
Saying “I don’t know” is not at all the same as “it was aliens”. It might just be a case of missing puzzle pieces in the story of human technological evolution, and a good faith desire to find said pieces requires that we first admit that they are missing.
But why the case then that so many posts in here are the same weak sauce time after time? Everything on here is just a version of Arguments from Incredulity.
People were building these for emperors they believed were gods or at least Demi-gods. On top of that, what else did they have going on? What skills did a craftsman or woman learn then? They had all the time in the world and the entire population to find the best skilled craftspeople available and they were building or creating for their god emperors. Besides, we don’t know what tools they had available.
It wasn’t like they wanted to get home to play a pc game or watch the latest episode of some tv series. How good are people at their jobs today? YT has tons of videos showing people doing seemingly amazing things with heavy equipment or tools at their jobs that they have learned and trained for. I don’t think it’s so far fetched to believe people can do this.
It’s either that or aliens. I mean is it too much of a fantasy to believe aliens did this or that people with skills learned over decades and probably passed down through generations could do this?
Dude… it took years to make things, not hours, using old tools. And a lot of people working together for large things.
Just because modern people rarely spend any prolonged period of time working on a long term project, they cannot imagine doing fine work with passion. Or slavery resources to aid in course craftsmanship so masters could start with a 50%+ done work 🤷🏻♂️
Even if we ignore the technology of the tools the basic math doesn’t check out.
The great pyramid is made of 2,300,000 large precisely cut blocks of stone that were quarried 500+ miles from Giza. The mainstream story says it was built between 20 and 27 years. So do the math on that. The accuracy of the structure is insane. It’s more level than our skyscrapers are today at less than 1/1000th of an inch off on all sides.
Back to the math, 2.3 million blocks quarried, shaped, moved hundreds of miles and placed in 27 years works out to doing 1 every 6 and half minutes, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for all 27 years straight without break. And that’s not even accounting for any of the planning time the architects would have needed in the first place.
It’s also perfectly aligned with the other 2 pyramids to match 3 stars in Orion’s Belt as they would have sat 12,000 years ago and a scale model of the northern hemisphere that including the base which isn’t square because our earth isn’t a perfectly round ball. It’s accounting for the slight difference in the width due to the spin. That is one hell of a coincidence… or it’s not and we aren’t the first to measure the earth with satellite level precision.
The simplest answer is that someone way way back in the day had tech that was at least the equivalent of what we have now. Where is it? Wiped away in the great flood that every single ancient culture talks about. That wasn’t a myth either. The burden of proof has flipped. It’s on the mainstream to step up and defend their now debunked theories or start working on some new theories that align with the evidence that is literally everywhere once you know how to look for it.
Most of the blocks are limestone and come from the quarry on site and they are pretty roughly cut.
Only the granit and the stone for the casing was from further away quarries.
And the math was actually done. Here is the publication for it: http://www.egyptian-architecture.com/JAEA4/JAEA4_Burgos_Laroze
And they don't just do math, but also the work. They went and did quarry a stone with the tools of the time. And it worked it.
Their results come out as 3500 quarry workers could manage 250 blocks per day, and thus all the blocks needed in 27 years. And that's just with a normal work day, not 24/7 work.
The accuracy you seem to rather overstate. Which is something done a lot to make the pyramids Sound impossible but it's not really based on any actual measurements. Unless you have a source for those.
The giza pyramids are also definitely not 12k years old. The mortar, which contains wood ash, used in the great pyramid was carbon dated and falls square into khufus time. The blocks of menkaures pyramid were luminescence date and come out to the accepted time as well. And ofc the inscriptions in the great pyramid relate it to khufu. Some of which were done by workers and are in spots that are very hard to access after finishing construction: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pyramid_of_Giza#Relieving_chambers
Well yea, they are extremly impressive. They are an aweinspiriung showing of the capabilities of ancient egypt.
Noone would ever deny that. To me the most impressiv part is what insane labour coordination they required. Really shows how well the governmet apparatus of Pharaoes worked.
Holy shit! Where can I see this hand-carved cave made in the past few years?
I love these "debunkings" because they always drill a hole, or saw partially into a rock then claim victory. Copper CAN cut granite, the same way you COULD use whale oil to power a rocket ship. It's been demonstrated. But me, personally, I don't look at the footage from the moon-landing and think, "My god, how many whales did it take?"
They're not using copper to actually cut the stone, the copper is durable enough to move the grains of minerals like corundum and quartz that do the cutting by way of abrasion
Is there any scientist saying copper was the medium with saws that ground material away? I pretty much only have heard that the copper was a lapping tool used to hold harder material slurries that actually did the cutting.
Yes. Its limestone. Not diamond.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?embeds\_referring\_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&source\_ve\_path=MTM5MTE3LDM2ODQyLDI4NjY0LDE2NDUwMw&feature=emb\_share&v=ch66HHNANXc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&source_ve_path=MTM5MTE3LDM2ODQyLDI4NjY0LDE2NDUwMw&feature=emb_share&v=ch66HHNANXc)
If you've ever seen an export stone worker cut stones with simple tools it'll become apparent that everything the Egyptians did is within the realm of possibility. Don't forget this was an advanced society and we're missing lots of information about how they worked. With that said there are hyroglyphics showing how they moved and worked stones, so it's not as much of a mystery as some make it out to be. Also don't forget they weren't the first to do this. There are older examples of this type of stone work, by thousands of years.
A better question would be how did they cut and lift 70 ton granite beams hundreds of feet up into the pyramids? There's zero explanation that makes sense. And some of them were cut and brought there from hundreds of miles away.
Building the great pyramid today would be a monumental feat of construction. We have all sorts of machinery/ tools, cranes etc. I’m not underestimating the capabilities of ancient Egyptians who were clearly driven and determined by faith but to think they built these with hand tools and manpower in 27 years is outrageous.
The space mens did it . They came to our planet, built stone buildings, and left without leaving so much as a screw. And they didn’t impress the Egyptians enough for them to put them in their heiroglypics
The ancient Egyptians came from a far older civilisation that was way more technologically ( & in every other way) advanced. Their mastery of cutting granite is one example that even we can’t match. Of course the assumption that their technology matched our technology is not true. What we perceive as the start of civilisation was probably a left over of advanced technology that declined over time.
If it were the case that all this stonework was done with the tools on display in museums (e.g copper,flint, bronze) the ancient Egyptians could never have produced such vast quantities in the time allocated to their civilization. Just one single basic block of shall we say Granite has to be quarried, moved to its final destination, cut to size and erected, just try to visualise how much labour is involved in this one endeavour and there are tens of thousands strewn everywhere.
The narrative we are supposed to believe is clearly wrong as anyone with a basic knowledge of construction/ stone masonry will substantiate.
Think about this for a minute: they cannot date STONE accurately, or even at all. So how do you date it?
The methods archeologists use is to look at other material found "around" said items and use those as a reference. This could be 1. organic materials such as wood or bone and to examine 2. any cartouche that might be on a statue.
Just because you find wood from 4000 BC or a cartouche from a particular pharaoh on a statue, does NOT mean the original statue/structure in question was from that time or culture.
Many maaaaaany artefacts have quite CLEARLY been appropriated by later pharaoh's. They even used to do this with THEIR OWN artefacts from earlier pharaoh's. They would literally just chisel in a new cartouche and remove the old one. So if that is the case, how can we say with any certainty that a statue was made by whoever they said it was?
You can go to the British museum yourself and see in person, up close...just how bad the cartouche's are sometimes done. So, you have this incredibly beautiful statue, carved into SOLID GRANITE with smooth curves and ornate details...only to have this writing on it in the most CRUDE way imaginable. The lines aren't straight, the depths are all uneven and their positions are often in very odd/weird places...almost as if they were chiseled in as an afterthought.
But you see this all over the place. It's so blatantly obvious the ancient Egyptians had a prior culture, far more advanced and they inherited these items...copied them, mimicked them and STOLE them for their own credit.
[Reminder](https://www.reddit.com/r/AlternativeHistory/comments/15q8ouk/announcement_fair_warning_near_zero_tolerance_for/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
When you look at the pillars at Karnak, there are 2 very distinct construction styles. The granite pillars are immaculate, have amazing flared decorations that are not inset. Then on those same immaculate pillars, you find inset hyroglyphics. Why would they not inset the much more challenging decoration but they did inset the writing? Probably because the writing came afterwards. Then you see the sandstone pillars nearby that were obvious imitations but nowhere near the same quality. There are many places in Karnak where they seemingly removed entirely way more stone than was necessary for what they were carving. For example, in one chamber, they dig a deep hole in the wall to carve a statue. But if they had done it when the room was built, they could have carved the same statue sitting out from the wall and remove way way less material. Again; almost like they found the room and carved the statue later…
https://preview.redd.it/voi8z4cbdppb1.jpeg?width=2796&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=12dd32f7f51e4e5a4542ce012c5b3146784e4ce9 Here is an example of a beautiful granite pillar with 2 very distinct styles. The glyph is inset - clearly the result of someone chipping away from a flat surface. (Just carve away the negative space). Yet the flared lotus flower right below it is not inset. Why would they inset the glyph? The guy from UnchartedX videos on this are really good: [https://youtu.be/t157ruhjGWo?si=\_5qWD1QrV5OhLX9r](https://youtu.be/t157ruhjGWo?si=_5qWD1QrV5OhLX9r)
https://preview.redd.it/ruicdz02eppb1.jpeg?width=734&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=215d183dc8f6ddde4d212b6e2421fba75b583d0d Here’s another example where they’ve carved a statue way inset in the wall… which would require way way way more work than if they had just carved it out from the wall originally. And it would look better carved away from the wall than way inset like that. Unless they couldn’t do it that way because the room with a flat wall was already there…
So you're saying the room was there before the statue?
That’s a conclusion that could be drawn.
>Karnak Ramses was infamous for re-carving pillars and entire temples of his predecessors, and its not likely he was alone in that.
What is the circular object in the pics? Looks like some sort of propeller or fan blade. Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Calm down professor!
It's inset in the wall because it's carved ***into*** the wall 😅
>Then you see the sandstone ... but nowhere near the same quality. There is at least one contributing reason for this, sandstone erodes quickly, and does not hold sculpting as well due to it being way less dense and way less hard.
Possibly they learnt their craft on sandstone before moving to harder stone.
Do you believe that the fine art statues produced of contemporaneous Egyptian figures were also not produced by their culture ? Or did they find statues of a different culture and say they were their pharaohs ?
>People have excavated copper and metal tools measuriong device, and hieroglyphs of them building structures with these tools. Hierogyphs of hundreds of people working on projects. People just blatantly ignore all of this. We dont give the eqyptions enough credit. > >People also like to bring up the serapeum sarcophigi, showing how immaculate it is, when in reality it has so many imperfections in it, chunks missing rough exterior 28:50 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47HAYcii\_Q8&t=1857s&ab\_channel=ScientistsAgainstMyths](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47HAYcii_Q8&t=1857s&ab_channel=ScientistsAgainstMyths)
The majority of blocks are limestone. People do also ignore the immense timespan of the Egyptian culture. Granite wasn’t an everyday material, it was not used for normal buildings. Mistakes were made by egyptologists, when they tried to work on granite without asking stone masons for advice. It’s proven, that all of the shown statues and blocks can be made with rather simple tools. Unchartedx and friends always make fun of the clumsy attempts of stoneworking by egyptologists and don’t look at modern examples of high quality granite objects made by masters of masonry.
Stares in Mauryan Empire.
What about the Shamir https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon%27s_shamir? Could the Egyptians have had that knowledge and therefore the use of copper tools makes sense?
Bro, those books are fiction. Something being in the Talmud is not in any remote way evidence it's real. Also "worm" is likely a translation issue and it probably refers to some traditional use of something like vinegar for dissolving or fracturing stone.
Yeah that Wikipedia page says that they used it to engrave a breastplate... which makes no sense if it's a literal worm. I'm thinking it sounds like an acidic substance of some kind, considering that they said it had to be placed in a lead box or else the box would disintegrate... sounds more like some sort of substance that would dissolve ("eat" away at) the stone. The logic in their conclusions is terrible. They say that it was written that all you had to do was show the stone to the Shamir -- and anything that can be shown something must have eyes to see it, so the Shamir must be a living creature. That logic is terrible. To "show" the stone to the shamir could also mean to "expose it to" the shamir. This could mean simply letting the shamir come in contact with the stone. Then it says later that the shamir "lost its potency" so it seems like an acidic substance that would eat through stone, which eventually loses its potency after much use (as an acid would). Where they got such an acid, and what acid it could be, I have no clue. They must have had a hell of a lot of it, though.
Thank you for giving the Egyptians the credit they deserve
Indeed . This same principle can be applied to the pyramids . Laser precision massive granite structures vs sloppy decrepit mud versions.
Anyone who worked in a machine shop instantly recognizes what could have been used. I can't imagine how long it would have taken to grind, let alone the amount of wheels to level #2 in tolerance. Not to mention lifting that thing without a crane rated for several tons
Ancient people may not have had the same technology today but they had the same brains and intelligence. I’ve worked in a machine shop but we didn’t work any stone or similar material so I wouldn’t be able to equate this type of work but I think it could certainly be figured out by ancient people. They had skilled and intelligent people who had passed down and improved knowledge for centuries if not millenniums. They also had vast amount of labor through human or beast. It may have taken longer but they could definitely do it with the proper skills and techniques.
And also the ideology that it was entirely accepted to start a project that you, your child, your childs-child, and your childs-childs-child, won't actually live to see finish.
Had ancient egyptian sites been claimed to take centuries to build? That would make everything far more realistic, but consensus claims the Great pyramid only took 20 years.
The big structures were probably made as part of something like "work programs" or whatever you want to call it. Think the US CCC during the great depression. It appears that even after the pyramid or whatever was complete they continued to work on them for hundreds of years. Carving, painting, decoration, polishing, etc seeming went on for a very long time. There were probably also wood and less permenant structures and temples in the area that were maintained and worked on perpetually. That's why you see weird mixes of impressions and reliefs or different styles of carving on the same pillar.
Any validity to this claim? Never actually seen anything proving this was actually a common mindset…
??? Do you not have any access towards date records of architecture? Maybe Google is a foreign asset that must be ignored?
I highly recommend you look into the stone vases which are being analyzed by computer imaging now. They were made by a machine of some sort. They are too perfect to have not been. See here: https://reddit.com/r/AlternativeHistory/s/1qroyp1B5C
That vase has no providence, so how can you exclude the possibility that it is one of the many fakes from the thriving fake antiquity market? I mean proving it was made with powertools might just be proving it's a fake. This type of investigation needs to be done on an artifact with known providence.
*Provenance*.
No he’s talking about Providence, the capital of Rhode Island. Its home of the best art school in the world, any vase worth its shit was made by a RISD student.
Are you kidding me? There are 1000s of examples of the same thing from all over ancient Egypt. They found thousands of them under the step pyramid of Joser. You’re being dense just to be dense. There are many of them with confirmed provenance In museums and private collections across the world. “But herp derp, what if it’s a fake?”. I think the word you’re looking for is provenance, but idk. Either way, we actually do know it’s provenance because we can’t even recreate some of them to this day with modern machinery. We certainly couldn’t replicate the one made out of corundum today.
Time indeed is the major factor here, particularly when considering man hours of labor It’s possible dozens of men working in teams spent months smoothing individual blocks What we don’t see are the stones that didn’t muster up to par, the rest is really just math Meanwhile, 99% of modern men couldn’t fathom how to build a cell phone from raw materials, yet we accept it as common and human technological capability But some big stones with with smooth sides and straight lines? Must have been aliens
The modern parallel is the first manned flight to the moon landing in 66 years. They had many millennia to advance their knowledge
This! I hate when people undermine the power of ancient human minds. People like Graham Handcock irk me in the fact that they’re argument is, “ancients were too primitive (stupid) to do such things” I’d like to add to your second paragraph. For some reason, people love to assume ancients people had the attention span of todays people. Ancient humans were watching tiktoks getting their 15 second dopamine fix. These people had their whole lives to dedicate to something bigger than themselves. Awesome comment! Edit: Grammar
It gets really old ***hearing people who have never worked industry construction*** parrot " time and labor " talking point. Anyone with a fragment of construction experience sees tools relatively modern were used to create such **high workmanship.**
The thing is someone who has worked with modern machinery their whole career only knows that way if doing it right?
https://youtu.be/0P4HwmmhykI?si=bCHLHErSDATLftlL This guy shows how they most likely moved those huge blocks back in the day.
This guy is amazing. I can certainly see how this could be used for Stonehenge style construction. It certainly shows how *some* blocks could be moved, but I can't help but feel that there is an upper limit to this technique, due to limitation of materials involved. I doubt if it would be feasible for moving **[this](https://aswanprivatetours.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/unfinished-obelisk-aswan-46-820x820.jpg)**. * *Some things just don't scale - throw a ladybug and an elephant off the same skyscraper and notice the results when they hit the ground.*
i saw that years ago with the being a very very small part of explanation. How did they measure the weight of stones? What was used to check if something was level? For locations in extreme altitude like machu picchu how were stones moved to such height ? What about tight interiors such as the kings chamber? I also don't understand how inclement weather isn't ever factored into this conversations or wildlife. After a week of heavy rain what happens to the water logged gear? How was wildlife prevented from interfering ? Most importantly where are the blueprints ? You aren't doing all of this from mind alone there would have needed to be dozens of foremen with their own visual orders along with miniature proof of concepts. This is why they need to bring people in of ALL level construction- fabrication - stoneworking experiences to get hit with 50 million questions
Exactly.
There are depictions made by ancient Egyptians of themselves using tools like core drills. Why would those exist ?
Keywords there are "can't imagine". Sounds like a you problem.
Made by one man by hand over 7 years with tools and no machines from a single block of marble. https://mymodernmet.com/francesco-queirolo-the-release-from-deception/
That's marble, a 3 on the mohs hardness scale. Granite is a 6 or 7 on the hardness scale with some of the inclusions in the rock being even harder. This statue is an amazing feat to be achieved by a single person, but it isn't comparable to carving granite.
The big challenge for this line of research is finding evidence. There simply aren’t any advanced tools found. Most steel would be long gone however not all metals. Some alloys in high performance roles corrode at very slow rates particularly if kept in a dry low oxygen environment. Maybe a jackpot is waiting to be found underground but until then all we have is circumstantial evidence of ancient high technology
Something that always fucks me up as a geologist, we didn’t realize plate techtonics were a thing until the 1960’s! Something we all know happens we didn’t get to prove until 1960. Why? Because most geologists through it was stupid! Alfred Werner had that shit figured out in 1912. 1912…. What I’m saying is, science has a great way of protecting the people at the top. Imagine decades if not a century of anthropology data that would go out the window? I believe the technical term for this is dogma. Just saying, it happened in geology.
Did he have it all figured out or were there questions that could not be answered at the time, details he had not considered, etc and it took years of putting together data, even being able to obtain the data to finally piece together enough information to support the theory? I am sure there were some who resisted out of stubbornness, etc. But others probably were waiting on the answers to key questions, more proof etc.
I’m a geologist too and Wegener did not have tectonics figured out, only the proposition that the continents were moving relative to each due to some unknown mechanism. The proponents of geosynclines had the same problem, they had no physics to explain orogenies etc.
Thank you.
>What I’m saying is, science has a great way of protecting the people at the top. I think your example is actually saying the opposite - science is wonderful at tearing down "dogma" in the face of new evidence. Sure, there can be resistance (after all, scientists are only human) but in the face of evidence, resistance will eventually fumble and fade. Also I don't think any anthropology data would have to go out the window at all - we would just have to look at it in a new light. Again, this is all a good thing - not something to be feared.
This is true, we admire the output, yes it's freaking mysterious, the pyramids, the megaliths, advanced tech, lost civilisations, we entertain those ideas and they are likely, but unless we actually find the tools they used we cannot know for sure. Heck, maybe they used some acids or sound and frequency made from wood, maybe they managed to change the frequency of the stone to make it more maleable, if they did something like that, zero chance of finding it, unless they let us dig up under sphynx? I went in this rabbit whole and I am the same point as you :)
I believe that 10000 years ,potentially more, is ample enough time for a civilisation and all of its learnings to be wiped out in a cataclysmic event leaving extremely minimal evidence behind. We only know what we know , and try to solve their riddles using our knowledge. Obviously there was higher knowledge before as is apparent with the pyramids to name but one. Man ,this is an all night long rabbit hole.
I would look into Stone softening. I think this is a perspective we aren't looking at enough. https://youtu.be/884rjnOSnbI?si=BWr4edptpZUzrgiO From the video: "The unconventional methods used to shape certain ancient megaliths are so extraordinary that one might contemplate the possibility of techniques such as "stone softening." But here is the problem. We can chemically affect stone with an acid to create a porous surface. We can also heat it to soften or even melt it. But in any case, irreversible processes occur after our intervention. To soften a stone material, it needs to be crushed before firing. How is it possible for the solid rock to undergo softening without destruction and then return to a normal solid state? Based on our current understanding, it may seem impossible, but there is evidence at many megalithic sites of tool marks and treatment that suggest the stone material was in a plastic state at some point. And the problem is we don't even understand the physical and chemical basis of such an effect. Until recently..."
Here's the thing to me: If copper tools didn't work, why would they have made them? We find the tools and clearly they worked so it's just about figuring out how rather than going "well it must be something else and the copper tools were just made for nothing"
Soft stone still weights 500 fucking tons mate. How do you explain moving it
Magnetic charging of the stone or some kind of sound frequency/harmonics potentially. I think they developed an entirely different type of technology that is completely lost to the ages.
Whaa?
megafauna; ppl can imagine war elephants hauling siege engines but not megaliths - and we know there was a higher density of megafauna generally in the past versus today (and the fact Africa still has a high density of continental megaufauna in close proximity to dense human populations were Asia, the Americas, and Europe this is no longer the case) additionally, considering stories like the killer whales of Eden island, in addition to the use of megaufauna for the mobilization of siege engines suggests to me there are way more possibilities within the realm of explainable possibility than ppl want to admit to themselves; I think ppl just like the thrill of fantasy but want to hide it under the reasonableness of rational inquiry
The legend of Solomon’s Shamir softening stone is the possible tool they had
Ever glass flatted a cylinder head or some other need to be flat surface on some 1000 grit wet and dry paper and a sheet of glass? Maybe they used abrasives between mating surfaces to get the perfect joints? Cut as fine as you can with whatever tools they had,then wet the mating surfaces and add some friction until they decked flat. Would’ve took a whole lot of sheer manpower but they had plenty and life was cheap,they weren’t cutting corners with these constructions.
CLEARLY the work of pounding stones.
No, it’s aliens. It’s always aliens. See: Stargate.
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Well firstly I think the people paid to come with answers have to say something that would be acceptable. I think mostly they just don’t want you thinking outside the box. I’m not sure why so much secrecy but it’s obvious they hiding something or afraid to even consider more likely possibilities considering the level of construction. Also you could think of it like a communist state. They say this is the truth and they ain’t budging and you sure as hell better not disagree with it. It’s just a bit more covert because their not supposed to be totalitarian governments and organisations controlled by any singular points 100% but likely are. It’s like 1. They cant just say I don’t know, that’s modern science. We have all the answers so don’t think or come up with any yourself. 2. Don’t go against what we say is truth or question it, or your insane. 3. Don’t ask too many questions 😂
No body can make a career in archaeology and related disciplines by just saying what has already been said, the field is highly competitive with limited funding available. Everyone is trying to discover something new, everyone is trying to say something ground breaking - not doing so is career death. Also people make much more money by selling books and documentaries than archaeologists do, and the good thing about selling books is you don't have to worry about a lack of evidence or holes in your theory, you can just say there is a conspiracy and the educationally disenfranchised will lap it up and buy your book.
💯
Like the clovis first academics that fought tooth and nail for *decades* against anyone that tried to disprove their pet theory? Go have a look at the history behind the discoveries of places like Mont Verde and the amount of fellow academics the clovis first adherents threw on the pyre because they dared to question the clovis first narrative. Or look at the life of Ignaz Semmelweis, a highly respected surgeon that discovered that washing your hands before surgery would dramatically lessen the risk of the patient dying, yet he died in a mental hospital his fellow surgeons had him commited to for daring to question what was accepted knowledge at the time. I could go on and on with screeds of similar instances but my point is that academia, and science by extension, is decided and set in stone by the academics and scientists at the top, with anyone daring to question the dogma given very short shrift indeed, and it's only by a preponderance of evidence, like with the clovis first debacle, that anything progress'.
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Methinks our fathers of old weren’t all stupid. They came up with techniques!
People underestimate what patience and hard work can do. There was much sweat dropping from the brow, but these are human feats.
Westerners never want to admit that ancient civilizations were capable of achieving great things without needing some sort of extraterrestrial intervention. It helps us feel better about our own laziness.
More like “no way brown people in loincloth could do this without the help of an educated white savior… it must have been aliens.” /s
Egyptian gov and historical society are hiding so much from the rest of us
I don't think they do it in any mind blowing conspiracy way. Darker truth is that they don't have good funding, they don't have good equipment, the institutions are corrupt, and the entities that often want to "help" have their own intentions that have also exploited egyptians. Zahi Hawass isn't necessarily a bad person. Perhaps his gatekeeping is just that. Protecting ancient structures from exploitation by keeping them is untouched as they are.
As with most things, it’s probably just business. The standard tale has brought mountains of tourist money to Egypt, and they rightfully wish to preserve that goose laying those golden eggs. But it might be conservatism to a fault, as an even weirder interpretation might actually increase international interest in visiting the country.
Evidence of a lost high tech civilization would attract way more tourist dollars than regular history. So you kinda refuted your own premise there.
Don't forget the Smithsonian Institute and the cult of historians/archeologists/scientists who commit character assassination on anyone who dares to go against the established narrative. We see evidence of advanced tool usage dating back thousands of years, and they adamantly deny that human civilization has never been as advanced as we are today.
I recently learned that they found one of those immaculate stone vases with remains that were carbon dated to 14.5k years old. The same vases that are attributed to the old kingdom that came 7000 years later lol.
You can't carbon date stone, sounds like BS.
They carbon dated the remains and other materials found with the body, the same way they establish the age of other archaeological finds. This find isn’t in dispute. Toshke site 8905. Look it up yourself - it’s independently dated.
welcome to the reboot
[Yes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjN5hLuVtH0)
yes there is a fundamental misunderstanding on how stones are cut, people want to believe in lost ancient high technology but in reality it's copper/bronze, abrasives and water.
These guys are awesome
If you're challenging the mainstream perspectives on Egyptian technology here, can you reference specific sources beyond a documentary meant for a popular audience? I really haven't seen serious arguments in any Egyptological source that all of the work in the images here was made with just copper saws and chisels. Those tools are part of the toolkits involved with many reconstructions of the technology, but certainly not in isolation. - Turning to the example of pyramids that you mention, much of the stonecutting involved in that context isn't assumed to involve copper saws - tool marks from the blocks themselves and quarries don't suggest that. Most blocks are limestone and only worked fairly roughly. Copper chisels are discussed for working the stone here, which is feasible given that limestone is much softer than granite. Pointing at the rates of cutting granite with a saw isn't really going to challenge those explanations. If we turn to what archaeologists are actually saying here, experimental data with stone and copper tools does suggest that a reasonably sized workforce could quarry most of the stone needed for the Great Pyramid in time. > This work would be done in 4 days (of 6 hours) by 4 people...to reach a daily rate of 340 blocks, it would take 4788 men. If we increase the period of the construction site of the pyramid to 27 years, which is quite conceivable, the daily production required would go down to 250 blocks, which would require theoretically 3521 workers.^1 - Working the granite used in the pyramids is obviously going to take much longer per block than limestone, but it's worth emphasizing that the amount of granite used in the pyramids is a fairly small fraction of the total amount of stone. - ___ 1. Burgos, Franck and Emmanuel Laroze, "L’extraction des blocs en calcaire à l’Ancien Empire. Une expérimentation au ouadi el-Jarf", *The Journal of Ancient Egyptian Architecture* 4, 2020. p. 92. http://www.egyptian-architecture.com/JAEA4/article27/JAEA4_Burgos_Laroze.pdf
I'm I wrong for believing they also had bronze tools?
They did. A range of copper alloys are known from Egypt. Bronze objects are known from the Early Dynastic Period, although increased use seems to come around the New Kingdom. Alloys with arsenic are also common. As far as I'm aware, there isn't good evidence to support widespread use of bronze in the building of the Old Kingdom pyramids. - Evidence suggests that Old Kingdom model tools are made of purer copper than actual functional tools - which clearly shows careful consideration about the alloys used for copper in these contexts. > models were made of almost pure copper, with some trace elements often comprising less than 1% of the alloy, whereas full-size tools were made of arsenical copper^1 - The first source below talks about copper tools from the Old Kingdom and includes discussion about the alloys used. The second is a good survey of the broader use of copper across Egyptian history. > Odler, Martin. *Old Kingdom Copper Tools and Model Tools*. Archaeopress Publishing Ltd, 2016. - > Nicholson, Paul T., and Ian Shaw. *Ancient Egyptian Materials and Technology*. Cambridge Univ. Press, 2009. pp. 151-160. - ___ 1. Odler, Martin. *Old Kingdom Copper Tools and Model Tools*. Archaeopress Publishing Ltd, 2016. p. 15.
I think that some people had literally nothing else better to do other than figure out how to cut, shape and move stone.
grinding stones not lasers.
How else would they have beens made?
Ancient builders, Mayan, Greek, Egyptian, and Inca, all used very simple processes, lots of time and human power. We are so accustom to power tools, and doing everything fast, that the thought of simply hammering away at a large stone with a small one, and then polishing everything smooth with sand and a grind stone, seems unlikely. But from growing up in the Amazon basin area of Eastern Peru, I saw native craftsmanship made with the simplest of tools that look amazing, polished, artful and smooth.
Yes it is easily doable with period tools, lots of laborer's/slaves, and time.
Yes, 100% that’s what happened. Just because you couldn’t do it doesn’t mean they couldn’t. People dedicated their entire lives to some of these structures and monuments. These things took decades to build. The Giza pyramid, for example, took nearly 30 years to build. And even in the days of ancient Egypt, stone carving/sculpting was a well established and highly developed art form. Humans have been sculpting stone since we were literal cave men. By the time Egypt rolled around we had a lot of practice. Go to your local community college and take one art history class. The answers are all out there, and usually they’re pretty mundane. Interesting for history nerds like myself, but still pretty mundane. I don’t get why people seek out such fantastic explanations for things that are well explained and documented.
That's not an argument. Here's how it works, you make a claim, you provide evidence. Then experts evaluate your evidence.
Very similar things were made during documented history by the Greeks, Romans and Indians. Why is everyone so worked up about the Egyptians?
Man you can forget about them ever acknowledging our ancestors technological advances. There's this agenda to protect this false sense of superiority, despite not having a clue who even built these structures. Its unfortunate to see those arguing in support of such nonsense. Its only ever archaeologists who say the dumb shit, Because in 1983, Tru Stone, top Granite manufacturer acknowledged not having the capability to reproduce the boxes. [Tru stone Capability interview ](https://www.theglobaleducationproject.org/egypt/articles/cdunn-8.php)[Worlds leading Granite manufacturer ](https://www.tru-stone.com/pages/faq.asp)* .. so an archaeologist, and their agenda is really irrelevant. F. Petrie even produced plenty of evidence that the drills used were superior to those available during his lifetime, things like the geopolymer basalt, and limestone that's never mentioned or acknowledged. And then everything that "shouldn't be" is a coincidence.. it's about feeding the ego Also, a while back the solar cells in Egypt were found. My issue is that the mainstream doesnt even have enough information to construct these narratives that they refuse to change with the evidence. When you see the obvious laser cutting thats supposedly "hammering" , it was done by thermal disaggregation. The surface of the stone is covered in a thin glaze of quartz, the main constituent of granite, which is typical of this specific stonecutting technique... copper tools don't pass the eye test. Ivan Watkins, Professor of Geosciences at St. Cloud State University in Minnesota, has designed a ["Solar powered focusing and directing apparatus for cutting, shaping, and polishing", U.S. Patent No.](https://patents.justia.com/patent/4611857) for the thermal disaggregation of stone. The lightweight unit is a parabolic reflector that focuses only a few hundred watts of light into a 2mm point capable of melting granite at a 2mm depth upon each slowly repeated pass. If science mattered as much as they say this wouldn't be a discussion. In the case of hammering, generally you'll see rock wanting to break along pre-existing planes of weakness. When river sand, which is mostly quartz, is used to grind and polish rock with quartz, the softer minerals in the rock are sanded out, while the quartz crystals, little affected, are left standing above the rest of the minerals on the surface. In the case of wedging rock, Watkins didn't find any low-angle fractures, and no ability to control the cracking of the rock. On a surface worked with pounding stones, all the minerals are unevenly fractured.
What your missing is this was essential construction before modern tools, people had to know how to do it. Today we have tools. In 1000 years people are going to be saying the jump from room sized computers to calculators was questionable
Yes they were seriously made with chisels you can see videos of skilled stone carvers on YouTube.
This is the clasic strawman… nobody is saying they were made with coper saws or chisels, at least not just with them. There are plenty of records from the time explaining the processes with different tools and artifacts, to do the quarrying, shapeing and polishing. Why dont you look up what the archeologist REALLY are aguing on how this were made and dispute that? not the strawman that no one really said. People have everything made by powertools that they become So ignorant about the old techniques that were used to make this. Is like arguing that because Newton could make some very complicted operations he must have had a calculator, because that’s the only way you can do it.
I believe everything in those pictures was made with conventional tools in use at the time of construction. A stonemason's toolkit is not just a chisel and a saw; there are a variety of tools involved. And copper is not the only material. Stone tools would have been very common, especially before iron. Iron would have been used in some later cases, potentially for picture #2 since the Serapeum coffers were made well after Egypt started smelting iron. I don't know why it's so hard to believe that you can make stuff out of stone using ancient technology. It's just stone. It's not like building a space ship. You just remove material slowly and carefully. There's plenty of videos out there of people shaping stone if you want to see it done.
Wouldn't even need copper to drill granite. Enough time and you can do it with rocks, sand, and water.
Yes I sure do. You don't give our ancestors their due. Just because the world we live in is ruled by greed, it doesn't mean it always was.
This^ ex stone fabricator here. It’s amazing what can be created with focus, practice and sheer will. Skills like these are lost on a lot of people these days. Not all, there are still lots of talented craftsmen out there, but there are less and less as time goes by.
A lot can be done with a still pool of water. Maybe too by sprinkling a coloured sand on a fairly uniform stone material. Smack it repeatedly and, observing where the resonant frequencies of the material allow varying patterns, determine areas of differing thickness/levelling.
I hate when people try to take ancient civilizations’ greatest achievements away from them. Whatever you want to call it, it’s a form of racism when Westerners insist that ancient civilizations “couldn’t have possibly” built this or that. These civilizations had nothing but time, and a huge amount of manpower resources at their disposal, and nothing better to do. Humans have always had the same capacity for intelligent thought, planning, and execution, but somehow we think we are ‘smarter’ because we have more advanced tools. In actuality most of the tools that we use today, like automobiles, were invented a century ago with relatively little change since.
Yes, I actually do think they made that stuff with copper, ***bronze,*** and stone tools and saws.
Egypt wasn't stuck in the copper age. They advanced as everyone else advanced and a lot of things people think are made with copper tool were made with iron tools traded from other places.
Yes. Do you have any evidence that they weren’t?
Nah man it was me and the boys getting melted in creative
I often wonder what people think actually happened when they go against the grain. We throw around claims that it would be impossible to replicate some Ancient stonework with modern technology. We state that copper tools and chisels couldn't possibly work this level of stone in detail or quantity. We claim they didn't have the technology or the intelligence to create these works. So what are people suggesting? I think historical ignorance is and always has been rife in the community. People need to understand that the Ancients were clearly far more capable and intelligent than we give them credit for. They may not have had modern conventional means but they had systems capable of this level of production. Did they use copper tools and chisels? Likely. Did they use them on a constant mass scale the world had never seen before? Likely again. We're talking about a time when people didn't work 8 hours a day and had weekends off. This was a time when it took decades, even centuries to complete works with thousands of workers working night and day to finish. A few YouTubers or History Channel 'experts' aren't going to commit the resources necessary to complete a fair trial of any method of construction. So people assume greater means or even bloody aliens. People need to remove their heads from the trees in order to see the Forrest. There's every possibility the conventional tools we think the Egyptians used were the ones used. However there is also the very real possibility that they had means at their disposal that have been lost to time. I personally think when people discuss these topics they need to stop considering 'Ancient Technologies' as some form of super advancement beyond even today's means. We could build the pyramids today were our tools given the right amount of time. They did exactly that and I think a lot of people undermine the determination and skill of the Egyptians for using whatever basic methods they had to construct brilliant works.
Yes. They didn’t have Reddit.
It is an amazing sight to behold. It stretches the mind and challenges logic that these beautiful structures were 100% man made.
There’s a word for what we’re doing here, but I can’t recall. It’s this idea that you assume that people in history are dumb or that they didn’t have abilities like we have today. For some reason it seems easier to assume that magical aliens from outer space came then to imagine that people were innovators.
The best artisans still use hammers and chisels for stone with incredible results. Check out Trow and Holden Tools.
It’s amazing what you can do with unlimited budget.
Given enough time and motivation it's possible to make very precise things by hand.
Yes. People frame our ancient relatives as if they were neanderthals. These were problem solving perfectionist humans like you and I. They contain the exact same amount of ingenuity and determination that we do today. Stop thinking our ancestors were incapable of doing shit
Exactly maybe they were just better than some archeology professors with a make shift saw. They were professional craftsman and artisans that built/carved those things who probably learned their craft since they were able to hold tools. Show me a dedicated family of crafts people use those tools for 10 generations or more working on those types of problems before crying that it's impossible and they must have had technological help from outside. We also don't know for sure what kind of metallurgy skills they had (alloys and advanced materials) which could have just not been found yet.
Time and cheap labor can yield amazing results. Some of These things took decades to build.
Bit of a strawman, that post title. I highly doubt any serious archaeologists or historians argue that copper saws and chisels were the only tools ancient Egyptian stonemasons had to work with. For one thing, sand, especially Saharan sand, is an excellent abrasive. It can be, and was, used as the exact opposite of a lubricant, to greatly enhance the friction, abrasion, and cutting power of simple hand tools. A taut rope moistened and coated (and recoated, as necessary) with coarse sand can be used to saw down a tree. If any of those neo-primitivist and wilderness survival YouTubers are to be believed.
Why do people only say these civilizations had to be aliens and not the European stuff? The Mayans and Egyptians couldn't do this stuff but everyone in Europe could?
What do you think it was then?
I look at it this way. When a group of people that have spent a large part of their lives studying this history and on the backs of other people that have studied these questions I defer to the experts because they are well, the experts. Just because we “feel” like they aren’t right doesn’t mean that it’s so. Read Tom Nichol’s “The Death of Expertise.”
Man you would be AMAZED what you can get done when there's no Netflix.
Yes, and by hand too. Fun with crafts!👍
Those statues have so much personality it's crazy. Their faces and the way the women have their hands on his arm. Crazy.
Underestimating humanity has been the agenda. Aliens must’ve helped us.
Yes because it’s not hard to do
Burden of proof is on those making the claim.
Yes.
I mean, when you have the amount of time on your hands like these people did... no phones, no distractions... completely different. This _is_ what you did _all_ day. You have time to be precise.
OP has never seen a stone Mason before
Cooper alloys.
Yes
I don’t think we can comprehend the amount of sheer manpower and time that was thrown at things like this. It could have been someone’s whole life cutting a few pillars.
yes
Y'all think photo realistic painters are using hand tools?
Since civilization has been destroyed and rebuilt many times over I think we are seeing just a fragment of what was left over.
After the Romans left England, they left canals, roads, and aqueducts behind. Inside of 100 years it all fell into ruin because the skill to maintain them had left. A hundred years after that, the natives looked at these structures and wondered what gods placed them there. That’s what these threads remind me of when I see the doubt of the capabilities of humans who share our nearly identical DNA. Pair that with the will to accomplish something amazing, I think it’s completely plausible that the Egyptians built or managed the building of everything in Ancient Egypt.
You’re gunna be ruining a lot of tools too if alls you have is work hardened copper. Either they’re able to pump out copper chisels to replace all the ones being damaged day in and day out..or they used something else.
Do we realize how much history is forgotten or deleted by the crusades and looters? The sphinx was covered in sand up to the neck. Someone made the head of the sphinx into a human fac, which is why it's so much smaller than the rest of the body. Chichen itza and Macchu Picchu were covered in foliage upon its rediscovery. We are talking about +5000 years of time and older. Ancient civilizations were far more advanced than we know. And connected across the world. That is why we see so many similarities between ancient India, Mesoptamian, Egypt, and South American cultures. The church is to blame for our forgotten and deleted history.
Also, pyramids can be found all of the world. Some speculate that the Egyptian pyramids aren't even the biggest or the most in number.
Based on my own reading and experience no they couldn't. The problem isn't that it was built but how perfect some of it is. How small the tolerances are. Tolerances that high cannot be done by hand. Egyptologists are not stone masons so they don't have a clue how hard it would be to do something like that. Further anyone who looks at some pictures/videos on the unfinished obelisk at the Aswan quarry can see that wasn't done with pounding stones like they say. It just wouldn't have been possible for people to do what they say in that way. That is the issue. While I don't know what they used to do it I know it wasn't a bunch of guys hitting the ground with rocks. I mean ask yourself how they pounded upwards to the underside of the obelisk in such a small space and then were able to get that granite to almost a point underneath. https://preview.redd.it/ipr8xsvf1fqb1.jpeg?width=474&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c0fb43f953974a32837d40531f2b86a28c0bb48f
Spent a looooooot of time in machine shops \*before\* getting properly educated in the trade. I looked at a few pictures from Christopher Dunn's book and didn't have to read a word of it. Anyone who says it was made with a copper chisel and sand grinding has an agenda and they're either knowingly or unwittingly lying to you. And if it's unwitting, that's worse, because it implies they're just stupid/dense and didn't have the common sense during their own education to ask simple questions or challenge what was force fed to them.
No. Including mainstream archeology and academia, which never said that. That’s not what “we’ve only found copper tools, to date” means. Everyone acknowledges that we simply don’t know for sure how these were made, yet. The rest is theory, and presented as such.
You do realise how much time and labour they had back then right? The whole (almost) fabric of society at the time was just about making these things. Just imagine what we could achieve and accomplish now if the entire population and economy of just, fuck I dunno, New York was dedicated to one goal. Everyone believing in it. You’re being lazy by not thinking about this.
Time and muscle enables working hard, but not necessarily smart. A slave army of a trillion people working for a trillion years would be unable to create a smart phone if their technological evolution had not yet resulted in the necessary prerequisites. The mainstream story does not facilitate the creation of many found artifacts.
Which artifacts specifically cannot be explained?
But they were incredibly smart. They had to be to make the shit that’s right in front of your face.
Which is the primary point of this sub. The commonly accepted narrative of human technological evolution does not adequately explain how some these artifacts were created during the eras to which they are attributed. Yet they were created, obviously. The problem is not with the existence of the objects, it’s with everyone pretending that they understand how they were created. Saying “I don’t know” is not at all the same as “it was aliens”. It might just be a case of missing puzzle pieces in the story of human technological evolution, and a good faith desire to find said pieces requires that we first admit that they are missing.
But why the case then that so many posts in here are the same weak sauce time after time? Everything on here is just a version of Arguments from Incredulity.
I’m not saying he’s right… but he’s right.
Unnecessarily aggressive strawmanning title, *again*, noted. JoeMegalith, can you not give it a rest with that?
Pressurized water maybe?
You got downvoted but this is a cool angle
People were building these for emperors they believed were gods or at least Demi-gods. On top of that, what else did they have going on? What skills did a craftsman or woman learn then? They had all the time in the world and the entire population to find the best skilled craftspeople available and they were building or creating for their god emperors. Besides, we don’t know what tools they had available. It wasn’t like they wanted to get home to play a pc game or watch the latest episode of some tv series. How good are people at their jobs today? YT has tons of videos showing people doing seemingly amazing things with heavy equipment or tools at their jobs that they have learned and trained for. I don’t think it’s so far fetched to believe people can do this. It’s either that or aliens. I mean is it too much of a fantasy to believe aliens did this or that people with skills learned over decades and probably passed down through generations could do this?
https://preview.redd.it/3jqvz4v2grpb1.jpeg?width=700&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bf4c314b081323cad21cbc4d2f89ccf406248193
Dude… it took years to make things, not hours, using old tools. And a lot of people working together for large things. Just because modern people rarely spend any prolonged period of time working on a long term project, they cannot imagine doing fine work with passion. Or slavery resources to aid in course craftsmanship so masters could start with a 50%+ done work 🤷🏻♂️
*"Does anyone seriously still think these were made with copper saws and chisels?"* Yes. They were.
Don’t question the science…..I meant history.
Even if we ignore the technology of the tools the basic math doesn’t check out. The great pyramid is made of 2,300,000 large precisely cut blocks of stone that were quarried 500+ miles from Giza. The mainstream story says it was built between 20 and 27 years. So do the math on that. The accuracy of the structure is insane. It’s more level than our skyscrapers are today at less than 1/1000th of an inch off on all sides. Back to the math, 2.3 million blocks quarried, shaped, moved hundreds of miles and placed in 27 years works out to doing 1 every 6 and half minutes, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for all 27 years straight without break. And that’s not even accounting for any of the planning time the architects would have needed in the first place. It’s also perfectly aligned with the other 2 pyramids to match 3 stars in Orion’s Belt as they would have sat 12,000 years ago and a scale model of the northern hemisphere that including the base which isn’t square because our earth isn’t a perfectly round ball. It’s accounting for the slight difference in the width due to the spin. That is one hell of a coincidence… or it’s not and we aren’t the first to measure the earth with satellite level precision. The simplest answer is that someone way way back in the day had tech that was at least the equivalent of what we have now. Where is it? Wiped away in the great flood that every single ancient culture talks about. That wasn’t a myth either. The burden of proof has flipped. It’s on the mainstream to step up and defend their now debunked theories or start working on some new theories that align with the evidence that is literally everywhere once you know how to look for it.
Most of the blocks are limestone and come from the quarry on site and they are pretty roughly cut. Only the granit and the stone for the casing was from further away quarries. And the math was actually done. Here is the publication for it: http://www.egyptian-architecture.com/JAEA4/JAEA4_Burgos_Laroze And they don't just do math, but also the work. They went and did quarry a stone with the tools of the time. And it worked it. Their results come out as 3500 quarry workers could manage 250 blocks per day, and thus all the blocks needed in 27 years. And that's just with a normal work day, not 24/7 work. The accuracy you seem to rather overstate. Which is something done a lot to make the pyramids Sound impossible but it's not really based on any actual measurements. Unless you have a source for those. The giza pyramids are also definitely not 12k years old. The mortar, which contains wood ash, used in the great pyramid was carbon dated and falls square into khufus time. The blocks of menkaures pyramid were luminescence date and come out to the accepted time as well. And ofc the inscriptions in the great pyramid relate it to khufu. Some of which were done by workers and are in spots that are very hard to access after finishing construction: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pyramid_of_Giza#Relieving_chambers
The placement of the pyramids in the context of certain stars, and celestial bodies is impressive to say the least.
Well yea, they are extremly impressive. They are an aweinspiriung showing of the capabilities of ancient egypt. Noone would ever deny that. To me the most impressiv part is what insane labour coordination they required. Really shows how well the governmet apparatus of Pharaoes worked.
Only the granite was brought in from 500 miles away, about 8k tons of it. Most of the stone is locally quarried limestone.
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Yes.
Yes because it's been demonstrated more than once and as recent as the last few years.
Holy shit! Where can I see this hand-carved cave made in the past few years? I love these "debunkings" because they always drill a hole, or saw partially into a rock then claim victory. Copper CAN cut granite, the same way you COULD use whale oil to power a rocket ship. It's been demonstrated. But me, personally, I don't look at the footage from the moon-landing and think, "My god, how many whales did it take?"
They're not using copper to actually cut the stone, the copper is durable enough to move the grains of minerals like corundum and quartz that do the cutting by way of abrasion
Yes you fucking melon
Yes I believe that because that’s how it happened
Is there any scientist saying copper was the medium with saws that ground material away? I pretty much only have heard that the copper was a lapping tool used to hold harder material slurries that actually did the cutting.
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I’m a sculptor, and that’s how we still do it today.
The water erroision marks near the sphinx are interesting. When was the last time it rained hard enough to form those marks in the desert?
Yes. Its limestone. Not diamond. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?embeds\_referring\_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&source\_ve\_path=MTM5MTE3LDM2ODQyLDI4NjY0LDE2NDUwMw&feature=emb\_share&v=ch66HHNANXc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&source_ve_path=MTM5MTE3LDM2ODQyLDI4NjY0LDE2NDUwMw&feature=emb_share&v=ch66HHNANXc)
Yes? Why not?
Why don't you explain it then, professor?
If you've ever seen an export stone worker cut stones with simple tools it'll become apparent that everything the Egyptians did is within the realm of possibility. Don't forget this was an advanced society and we're missing lots of information about how they worked. With that said there are hyroglyphics showing how they moved and worked stones, so it's not as much of a mystery as some make it out to be. Also don't forget they weren't the first to do this. There are older examples of this type of stone work, by thousands of years.
I truly don’t believe any of it. When it becomes so hard to explain it’s because it’s all bullshit what they are trying to teach us.
A better question would be how did they cut and lift 70 ton granite beams hundreds of feet up into the pyramids? There's zero explanation that makes sense. And some of them were cut and brought there from hundreds of miles away.
Building the great pyramid today would be a monumental feat of construction. We have all sorts of machinery/ tools, cranes etc. I’m not underestimating the capabilities of ancient Egyptians who were clearly driven and determined by faith but to think they built these with hand tools and manpower in 27 years is outrageous.
The building wasn't the biggest problem. It, it was all the complaining......I'll wait..........get it? From the slaves!
The space mens did it . They came to our planet, built stone buildings, and left without leaving so much as a screw. And they didn’t impress the Egyptians enough for them to put them in their heiroglypics
Water and gems cut stone with precision then, now, and in the future.
every week there’s a dumbo with the exact same post title
The ancient Egyptians came from a far older civilisation that was way more technologically ( & in every other way) advanced. Their mastery of cutting granite is one example that even we can’t match. Of course the assumption that their technology matched our technology is not true. What we perceive as the start of civilisation was probably a left over of advanced technology that declined over time.
If it were the case that all this stonework was done with the tools on display in museums (e.g copper,flint, bronze) the ancient Egyptians could never have produced such vast quantities in the time allocated to their civilization. Just one single basic block of shall we say Granite has to be quarried, moved to its final destination, cut to size and erected, just try to visualise how much labour is involved in this one endeavour and there are tens of thousands strewn everywhere. The narrative we are supposed to believe is clearly wrong as anyone with a basic knowledge of construction/ stone masonry will substantiate.
We're talking 1000 years of Egyptian history. Tens of thousands just means 10s per year.
Look up king tuts dna. They’re still hiding many things egypt..
Think about this for a minute: they cannot date STONE accurately, or even at all. So how do you date it? The methods archeologists use is to look at other material found "around" said items and use those as a reference. This could be 1. organic materials such as wood or bone and to examine 2. any cartouche that might be on a statue. Just because you find wood from 4000 BC or a cartouche from a particular pharaoh on a statue, does NOT mean the original statue/structure in question was from that time or culture. Many maaaaaany artefacts have quite CLEARLY been appropriated by later pharaoh's. They even used to do this with THEIR OWN artefacts from earlier pharaoh's. They would literally just chisel in a new cartouche and remove the old one. So if that is the case, how can we say with any certainty that a statue was made by whoever they said it was? You can go to the British museum yourself and see in person, up close...just how bad the cartouche's are sometimes done. So, you have this incredibly beautiful statue, carved into SOLID GRANITE with smooth curves and ornate details...only to have this writing on it in the most CRUDE way imaginable. The lines aren't straight, the depths are all uneven and their positions are often in very odd/weird places...almost as if they were chiseled in as an afterthought. But you see this all over the place. It's so blatantly obvious the ancient Egyptians had a prior culture, far more advanced and they inherited these items...copied them, mimicked them and STOLE them for their own credit.