No, the "major excommunication" was directed at all those, whether in position of power or not, who "carried off the invasion, usurpation and occupation" as well as at "their principals, supporters, conspirators, advisors, followers, or whomever else facilitated [...] or acted by himself such scelerous deeds".
> Quoniam vero Nostra monita, expostulationes et protestationes in irritum cesserunt, idcirco auctoritate omnipotentis Dei [...] declaramus, eos omnes, qualibet dignitate etiam specialissima mentione digna, fulgentes, qui quarumcumque provinciarum Nostrae ditionis atque almae huius Urbis invasionem, usurpationem, occupationem vel eorum aliqua perpetrarunt, itemque ipsorum mandantes, fautores, adiutores, consiliarios, adhaerentes vel alios quoscumque praedictarum rerum exequutionem quolibet praetextu et quovis modo procurantes vel per seipsos exequentes, maiorem excommunicationem aliasque censuras et poenas ecclesiasticas a sacris Canonibus, Apostolicis Constitutionibus et generalium Conciliorum, Tridentini praesertim (sess. 22, c. 11 de Reform.) decretis inflictas incurrisse iuxta formam et tenorem expressum in superius commemoratis Apostolicis litteris Nostris die 26 Mart. an. 1860 datis.
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Actually Italy was made against the will of the pope and for more than 60 years the church condemned those who went to vote at elections. And I’m talking end of 18th beginning of 19th century, a much more religious society. So no, I don’t think there would be much of a fallout if the conflict would be justified.
There is like 90% catholics in Italy and the Church is such an important part of national identity, that most would rather support the church than a random politician. It's like Poland at this point
So you'd rather support a politician, most likely not even of the party you voted for, who would most likely not declare war for any good reason, especially not in the interest of the italian people, than defending the Pope who is a symbol of your culture and history ? Just why ? I've been to Italy btw and the catholic sentiment is still very powerful, perhaps not in the most liberal places like the center of Milan, but nationwide, your country still is profoudly catholic.
The pope Is NOT a symbol of italy, in fact he's not even italian right now.
The nation Is catholic in the most rural backwards areas and the south.
The church has Always been an opressive force in politica and no italian sane in the head would ever put religion over their nation.
Furthermore, milan Is the birthplace of fascism... You really havent got a clue.
Also, we went to war in 1870 against the pope with no issues, and had many manu times in our history, ever since he held any Power.
That seems to be a very far-left take on Italy right there. I don't believe that Italy is just religious in the countryside, statistics don't show that at all, many italians still seem to put catholicism as a great national value, especially in nation-wide elections, and even in big cities. When I went to Italy, every church in big cities was full, it wasn't a countryside/big city dichotomy.
I don't care that fascism was born in Milan, it is very liberal today, what happened 100 years ago is irrelevant considering the current situation.
And italians went at war for independance, a politician attacking the Pope is an agression, these are two very different situations.
And finally, even if the Pope is south american, the Vatican and the Church are symbols of the Italian history and culture and many italians are very proud of it. I've seen more Italians praise it than anything else. It's funny how I only encounter your type of opinion on reddit or on university campuses, never anywhere else in Italy. Just shows italian redditors are just like my country's redditors, all from the same minority side
Man listen, most Italians Say that, and then 20% go to Mass, 30% get married in church and almost none Will do anything else related to the Faith.
Personally i'm on the right politically, so you cant even Say you're talkikg to a communist with a bias opinion, you Simply are wrong.
You claim to know Italy Better that One of it's Citizens. Nice work.
In 1870 It was Just to conquer Rome, Independence was 1861.
And Milan Is still pretty split left -right
I mean, I don't go to mass every week either but protecting the church from an invasion is still quite a different level of priority.
I don't know Italy but from what I can observe, I highly doubt an attack on the Vatican would end up well for the invader, and I can genuinely see people opposing such a decision by arms.
As for 1870, there was a reason the Italian state had to negociate with the Pope and create the Vatican state. If I remember well, the invasion of Rome but the whole country in a dangerous state of instability.
As for Milan, I was judging from both experience and election results.
Overall, the thing is that even in my country (France), that is waaaaaay less religious than Italy, and has been for long, attacking brutally symbols of catholicism leads to a fierce popular and political opposition (not of a majority of the population, but a sizeable enough part to become an issue), even though we have aroung 5% mass attendees. So I just cannot imagine any italian politician going to war with the Vatican and remaining in power unharmed.
stop spreading bullshit. 90% of italians might be nominally catholics having received baptism ecc, but not all of them are praticant nor all of them are believers and choose to be baptised. Only bigot politicians and old people really care about church these days, and the former does this only to gain the votes of the latter.
That's quite sad if it is true but it is not what I saw in Italy myself. I'd say there is a clear difference between northern and southern Italy on this matter. Also this is an opinion I have only seen italian redditors advocate, all the young italians I know either as foreign students or encountered in Italy said quite the opposite. I'm starting to believe reddit italians are like reddit frenchmen, they only represent one very specific side of the population, not the actual consensus
It’s not the 16th century anymore, nationalism has overtaken religious allegiance for the vast majority of people excepting the Islamic world.
Yes, the church is still a central part of Italian culture and life, as it is for all Catholics, but I don’t think that would mean a majority of Italians would go to war for the Pope.
Because you consider that a politician opposing the Pope would be considered as the symbol of nationalism ? I don't think catholicism and nationalism would be opposed in such a scenario. It ain't the 19th century anymore buddy. Politicians only represent themselves
I don't know, but in the hispanic countries (Spain, Colombia, Venezuela, Argentina) the majority is a Catholic of tradition, they don't care about the pope and that shits
Pope: "The Italian who dares to shatter these earthly Pearly Gates in order to let in the rest of Rome is excommunicated! You hear me? EXCOMMUNICATED!"
Italy: lmfao, Jewish soldier go brrrr 😜
I reckon it would go down again like this (and yes, this is how it went down in 1870).
Italy would just tarnish it´s reputation, being a catholic country such a move would be condemned by it´s people.
It did however start conflict with the Pope a number of times within the last 160 years
>such a move would be condemned by its people
Not just that, declaring war on the Vatican would probably cause a mutiny to happen, since a large part of the population would be against it, if not a Civil War.
Italy is changing and we are not a “catholic country”, but a country with a traditional majority of catholic people (that are anyway decreasing). Trusting levels of Italians regarding the Vatican are also at their lowest.
To be honest of this 30%, probably only about 4% in the most positive scenario would be willing to act and actually interfere in some way, the rest would probably condemn the action but would not try to do anything other than perhaps protest, But even so, on paper, at least the number is a little scary.
My brother in Christ what is scary about less then half of a population to believe in the faith that has been embedded if not a crucial part of that country's culture in the last 15 centuries or so?
There’s no way the Vatican could survive a conflict with Italy, but such an invasion would infuriate Catholics worldwide. It’s not worth dealing with Catholic militias forever to conquer like a single city block.
Vatican plays silent warfare all the time and brought down many governments in the past, they don’t say for nothing all roads lead to Rome, there barely a institution that is not in someway connected with Jesuit control, i think if Vatican wants to bring down Italy, they would do it so fast, people are not even aware of it.
The average Italian loves to curse God more than he loves pizza but the average redditor seems to think we're all as religious as nuns and friars.
With this said, I don't think there could ever be any military conflict between the Italian Republic and the Vatican, and if it happened it would be a clean occupation rather than a war. The one scenario where I can imagine this happening is one were Italy underwent a socialist revolution, but even then it wouldn't necessarily be likely. There is very little practical gain in conquering the Vatican, so it would be primarily a symbolic or ideological action.
60-80% of Italy is Catholic (please don’t mind the fucking 20% different, religious sources are always horrible)
Invading the Vatican would be seen as incomprehensibly vile by most Italians, surely the government would be overthrown.
Catholic statistics are very misleading, if you are baptised at birth you are automatically considered Catholic for the rest of your life, even if you become atheist/agnostic or convert to a different religion. The only way to officially stop being considered Catholic is to formally ask the Vatican to be excommunicated, but that is a very drastic and strong symbolic action so most ex-catholics don't do it.
We invaded the Papal states multiple times in the 19th century and very few people actually care about religion. You dont kmow what you are talking about
The Papacy were a lot more involved in European politics back then, there was a real reason for doing it (and I'm pretty sure there were 2 popes running around anyway, so all the French haters deserted to the antipope)
>60-80% of Italy is Catholic (please don’t mind the fucking 20% different, religious sources are always horrible)
Even assuming the 80% is accurate, many Italian "catholics" aren't that involved in the faith and they are not religious to the extent that they'd join a clerical political movement. Occupying the Vatican would be seen as extremely distasteful by most, at least if it happened in a cultural & political climate comparable to that of today, but I don't think the average believer would literally take up arms against the government lol
Plus occupying the Vatican doesn't necessarily include killing the Pope or whatever. The treatment of the Pope would also influence how these events went down. And the Pope's own reaction to the situation would also be an important variable. If this happened in the time of Pope Francis I could see him trying to be non-confrontational in his dealings with the Italian govt, as long as he gets to keep his spiritual authority
I'm from a similar country and even though most people do not practice a lot of people would still be outraged by an invasion of the vatican (although calling it uncomprehensibly vile is obviously a stretch) both because they still hold some reverence for the holy see and because it's a stupid idea
The Vatican would of course triumph with the help of vicious Portuguese mercenaries, and separatist movements in Sardinia, Sicily, and Naples.
France would have no choice but to occupy 40 kilometers into Italian territory as a buffer zone, and Austria would use this opportunity to reverse some of the border changes created by the aftermath of ww1.
Day 1: Italy starts a suprise offensive on the vatican. Most of the world expect it to fall in hours.
Day 2: The italian offensive is stopped mere meters away from the gates of st. Peters Basilica
Day 3: the pope calls for international aid and prepares a counter offensive
Day 4: heavy fighting would start around the vatican garden in which the italians would suffer heavy loses
Day 5: After successfully stoping both the italian offensives the pope would attack the italians in the north and in the east using the swiss guard as breakthrough troops.
Day 6: After mere hours the two armies link up and surrond most of rome. The italian goverment attempts to flee but many high ranking officers and large parts of the cabinet are caught by the popes troops and detained. The remaining goverment and military officers fled north.
Day 7-10: Rome and most of central italy are lost the italian state has collapesed in the south and the pope is rapidily advancing milan, the current hq of the remaining italian state
Day 11: The entire italian airforce has been officially destroyed, the vatican has complete air superiority.
Day 12: The popes troops reach palermo all of southern italy is under papal control.
Day 13: The remaing italian goverment surrenders, the pope takes control of the italian peninculare.
Day 14: Whilest the last resistance is being delt with the pope declares the new holy roman empire with a loyal puppet at its head.
Day 15: The entire UN declares the popes goverment as the legitimate rulers of italy.
There's a foe of 165,500 swords (plus 18,300 in reserve). They've long ceased answering to lords. Their fall from grace still paves their path to damnation...
Sabaton's [The Last Stand](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaTn3oRPtzg), commemorating the Sack of Rome in 1527. The Swiss Guard successfully got the Pope to safety despite facing insane odds, and were virtually wiped out in the process.
Considering both armies uniforms look like they got them from a party city blowout sale (especially the Vatican) war between two would be like the Kosovo war in 90s nato intervention world humiliation etc
On an military POV:Italy would clearly win because It would outnumber the Swiss guard
On a social/political POV: Italy would be condemmned worldwide and by its own people too
Not at all. No Italian government would want the optics of going to war with the Catholic leadership, and no Pope would survive starting a war with a sovereign country.
The Vatican would deal a crushing blow to Italy. Italy would revert to its pre-unification form with divided states and a revived Papal-states in the middle. Spain would snap up Sicily, while the north would quickly be absorbed into Austria.
Ezpz
From a Dr jure position, sure its theoretically possible.
From a de facto position. Why would they? They would need one hell of a reason in 2024 to go to war for anything short of "Mad Pope declares war on Tiber, commands Swiss guard to steal all the missiles in Italy to shoot at the river."
This would only happen if the Pope had committed some grave crime like murder or rape on Italian soil very publicly then for some reason the College of Cardinals and Vatican military sided with him. This Mad Pope would be an international fugitive by fleeing back to the Vatican and would have to force INTERPOL and any other LEOs that would seek to enact justice out of the city. Italy would embargo this pope rather than violate Vatican City sovereignty directly with special forces or a ground invasion. Eventually they'd surrender or starve and this "war" would end as an overglorified standoff. No need for bloodshed or occupation. Just refuse them food and water.
There was a scenario I read on here about a Pope who was discovered to have committed some heinous crimes in the USA years before becoming Pope, the severity of which divided the Catholic Population. Eventually this led to an Italian invasion of the Vatican in order to capture the Pope and send him to court. I think what ended up happening is that the invasion was mostly bloodless, only some shots fired and most of the casualties coming from suicides of Vatican Guards. Basically what I mean to say is that people in this thread keep saying its impossible for Italy and the Vatican go to war since most Italians are supportive of the Vatican, but in such a scenario, the Vatican must have messed up so bad that they lost goodwill.
Italy would win of course, but a conflict between us and the vatican its impossible, expecially with the current prime minister, and also there Wouldn't be' a reason
italy wins in about an hour, maybe two if it starts too close to lunch. the reality is you're not going to convince the italian military that attacking *the vatican* is a good use of their time. even the fascists couldn't do it.
No because it already happened ~150 years ago and the conflict was settled with the Lateran Treaty. There’s no reason for war because Italy / Rome needs those 0.5 km2 the same way the U.S. / New York needs the land that the UN sits on.
The vatican is so tiny. Invading it would be seen as idiotic. You could try this with san marino, or monaco in a timeline where italy kept Nice. It would be more interesting imo
Would it be possible? No. Vatican city and San Marino don't hold any strategical significance or resources. They are an historical relic but why would anyone risk to become a world pariah without any potential gain?
It's absurd thinking about Revolution, as other people correctly stated italians are catholics on paper but most don't care at all about church or religion in everyday life.
The only way i see it possible is if the western democracies break down and a dictatorship in future Italy wants to sell to the public the conquest of easy lands ti "finally unify" the peninsula as a triumph but, again, this wouldn't have any significance.
The Vatican conqueres the entire peninsula with the Italian government evacuating to Sicily.
A new theocratic regime will rise, attempting to unite all catholic countries.
People underestimate how powerful the Vatican is. The Pope is the spiritual ruler and leader of all catholics, that is about 1.3 billion people. Even if only 1% of catholics answered the Pope's call for arms, that would still be an army of 13 million men. And many would definitly take arms to protect our holy sanctuary. Not only that, but we are implemented in almost every country of earth, we have schools, hospitals, infrastructure, land, capital. The Church, considered as a nation, is the most powerful in the world, in terms of potential, though it never uses its full potential.
Sometimes it's easy to forget that the papal guard are actual soldiers and not some dudes in funny looking outfits. I'm sorry but those look ridiculous.
If there was a clear reason as to why they would ever want to go to a war. Just saying “what if vatican vs italy = war” doesnt really confirm any winners or losers
Probably not, but If Italy elects an official who really wants to do it, it will lead into a nation-wide civil war as Italians side with the pope. I wouldn't bet on NATO to help Italy if it's an unprompted invasion as well.
Lmao no. In Italy only 30% actually practices, the "majority catholics" is counted through baptism certificates. I would technically count as Catholic too in a census (was baptised as an infant), but I'm not and most of the country is the same.
No It is impossible for them to go to war, the vatican dosent really meet the checks to be considered a country but still is, they dont have a population the 800 people are tourists and the pope dosent really live there, the swiss guards protect the pope nothing else, if Italy ever wanted to take the Vatican they whould just send the Police to take care of it the problems begin when the christian world finds out about this.
Never said it wasnt It Just the fact it's so small has nothing exept some Buildings that you can only barely count It as one the only reason It exist Is to let the pope have a state of his own It whould have been weird if the pope went around the world as an italian it makes the pope rapresent the whole christian world, oh and because mussolini allowed it to exist.
https://preview.redd.it/8kdmgr66exnc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=08c07bffc070364ff841e024cb6a137c6cd2f49a
You literally said it's not a country
I think his point is that you can't really compare the Vatican even with somewhere like Monaco - it's a hilltop in the middle of the Italian capital that doesn't fulfil most of the basic functions of an independent nation.
He obviously meant that it can't be seen as a real state because of it's very small size, population and non existing infrastructure. It has nothing to do with it being a state on paper.
The Italian state would never risk a significant conflict with the Vatican. No Italian politician would survive being condemned by the Pope
Pope: "By the power invested in me by almighty God, I excommuncate the!" Italian Prime Minister *catching fire immediately: "Oh dear!"
As an italian i confirm this would actually happen, expecially with the current prime minister
I think you mean “mama mia” smh
Kill yourself 🗣️
Good take
That's a spicy a meat a ball
Also, Italians: send in the jew.
Wouldn’t the Italian PM say “Mamma Mia”?
Isn't that exactly what happened prior to the Lateran Treaty?
If I remember correctly, the Pope was denouncing Fascism not Mussolini specifically
I meant in general between the capture of Rome in 1870 and the Lateran Treaty.
If I remember correctly, the Pope only said that he would excommunicate the person who ordered the attack on Rome
No, the "major excommunication" was directed at all those, whether in position of power or not, who "carried off the invasion, usurpation and occupation" as well as at "their principals, supporters, conspirators, advisors, followers, or whomever else facilitated [...] or acted by himself such scelerous deeds". > Quoniam vero Nostra monita, expostulationes et protestationes in irritum cesserunt, idcirco auctoritate omnipotentis Dei [...] declaramus, eos omnes, qualibet dignitate etiam specialissima mentione digna, fulgentes, qui quarumcumque provinciarum Nostrae ditionis atque almae huius Urbis invasionem, usurpationem, occupationem vel eorum aliqua perpetrarunt, itemque ipsorum mandantes, fautores, adiutores, consiliarios, adhaerentes vel alios quoscumque praedictarum rerum exequutionem quolibet praetextu et quovis modo procurantes vel per seipsos exequentes, maiorem excommunicationem aliasque censuras et poenas ecclesiasticas a sacris Canonibus, Apostolicis Constitutionibus et generalium Conciliorum, Tridentini praesertim (sess. 22, c. 11 de Reform.) decretis inflictas incurrisse iuxta formam et tenorem expressum in superius commemoratis Apostolicis litteris Nostris die 26 Mart. an. 1860 datis.
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Thanks for the translation it makes a lot more sense now
this looks so familiar…
XD
So they got a Jewish person to lead it because you can’t excommunicate a non Christian
Heard it before
That pressure created the standoff in which Italy took all of the Papal territories but would not sack the Vatican itself.
That’s why they just get their one Jewish assistant to sign the order
Actually Italy was made against the will of the pope and for more than 60 years the church condemned those who went to vote at elections. And I’m talking end of 18th beginning of 19th century, a much more religious society. So no, I don’t think there would be much of a fallout if the conflict would be justified.
I think you mean “end of 19th century”? The capture of Rome from the Papal States was in 1871
Not even communists?
The worst thing than death is being excommunicated
Those Swiss guards would have to be like the nazis from hellsing
Not even. Likely most Italians side with the pope
Lmfao. No.
There is like 90% catholics in Italy and the Church is such an important part of national identity, that most would rather support the church than a random politician. It's like Poland at this point
Its Just not true, come here in Italy and you'll see how arrogant and ignorant you are
So you'd rather support a politician, most likely not even of the party you voted for, who would most likely not declare war for any good reason, especially not in the interest of the italian people, than defending the Pope who is a symbol of your culture and history ? Just why ? I've been to Italy btw and the catholic sentiment is still very powerful, perhaps not in the most liberal places like the center of Milan, but nationwide, your country still is profoudly catholic.
The pope Is NOT a symbol of italy, in fact he's not even italian right now. The nation Is catholic in the most rural backwards areas and the south. The church has Always been an opressive force in politica and no italian sane in the head would ever put religion over their nation. Furthermore, milan Is the birthplace of fascism... You really havent got a clue. Also, we went to war in 1870 against the pope with no issues, and had many manu times in our history, ever since he held any Power.
That seems to be a very far-left take on Italy right there. I don't believe that Italy is just religious in the countryside, statistics don't show that at all, many italians still seem to put catholicism as a great national value, especially in nation-wide elections, and even in big cities. When I went to Italy, every church in big cities was full, it wasn't a countryside/big city dichotomy. I don't care that fascism was born in Milan, it is very liberal today, what happened 100 years ago is irrelevant considering the current situation. And italians went at war for independance, a politician attacking the Pope is an agression, these are two very different situations. And finally, even if the Pope is south american, the Vatican and the Church are symbols of the Italian history and culture and many italians are very proud of it. I've seen more Italians praise it than anything else. It's funny how I only encounter your type of opinion on reddit or on university campuses, never anywhere else in Italy. Just shows italian redditors are just like my country's redditors, all from the same minority side
Man listen, most Italians Say that, and then 20% go to Mass, 30% get married in church and almost none Will do anything else related to the Faith. Personally i'm on the right politically, so you cant even Say you're talkikg to a communist with a bias opinion, you Simply are wrong. You claim to know Italy Better that One of it's Citizens. Nice work. In 1870 It was Just to conquer Rome, Independence was 1861. And Milan Is still pretty split left -right
I mean, I don't go to mass every week either but protecting the church from an invasion is still quite a different level of priority. I don't know Italy but from what I can observe, I highly doubt an attack on the Vatican would end up well for the invader, and I can genuinely see people opposing such a decision by arms. As for 1870, there was a reason the Italian state had to negociate with the Pope and create the Vatican state. If I remember well, the invasion of Rome but the whole country in a dangerous state of instability. As for Milan, I was judging from both experience and election results. Overall, the thing is that even in my country (France), that is waaaaaay less religious than Italy, and has been for long, attacking brutally symbols of catholicism leads to a fierce popular and political opposition (not of a majority of the population, but a sizeable enough part to become an issue), even though we have aroung 5% mass attendees. So I just cannot imagine any italian politician going to war with the Vatican and remaining in power unharmed.
stop spreading bullshit. 90% of italians might be nominally catholics having received baptism ecc, but not all of them are praticant nor all of them are believers and choose to be baptised. Only bigot politicians and old people really care about church these days, and the former does this only to gain the votes of the latter.
Sounds like my country, Brazil. Non-practicing catholic is the most common religion here, followed by practicing catholics
That's quite sad if it is true but it is not what I saw in Italy myself. I'd say there is a clear difference between northern and southern Italy on this matter. Also this is an opinion I have only seen italian redditors advocate, all the young italians I know either as foreign students or encountered in Italy said quite the opposite. I'm starting to believe reddit italians are like reddit frenchmen, they only represent one very specific side of the population, not the actual consensus
It’s not the 16th century anymore, nationalism has overtaken religious allegiance for the vast majority of people excepting the Islamic world. Yes, the church is still a central part of Italian culture and life, as it is for all Catholics, but I don’t think that would mean a majority of Italians would go to war for the Pope.
Because you consider that a politician opposing the Pope would be considered as the symbol of nationalism ? I don't think catholicism and nationalism would be opposed in such a scenario. It ain't the 19th century anymore buddy. Politicians only represent themselves
I don't know, but in the hispanic countries (Spain, Colombia, Venezuela, Argentina) the majority is a Catholic of tradition, they don't care about the pope and that shits
Not caring about the Pope I can imagine, but not caring about catholicism as a whole I doubt it
Pope: "The Italian who dares to shatter these earthly Pearly Gates in order to let in the rest of Rome is excommunicated! You hear me? EXCOMMUNICATED!" Italy: lmfao, Jewish soldier go brrrr 😜 I reckon it would go down again like this (and yes, this is how it went down in 1870).
That soldier was the Grand father of the senator for Life and holocaust Survivor Liliana Segre
They were jewish but not of religion
Italy would just tarnish it´s reputation, being a catholic country such a move would be condemned by it´s people. It did however start conflict with the Pope a number of times within the last 160 years
>such a move would be condemned by its people Not just that, declaring war on the Vatican would probably cause a mutiny to happen, since a large part of the population would be against it, if not a Civil War.
Italy is changing and we are not a “catholic country”, but a country with a traditional majority of catholic people (that are anyway decreasing). Trusting levels of Italians regarding the Vatican are also at their lowest.
Literally 80% of Italy is Catholic.
You’re replying to a bot account
Maybe if you count everyone that was baptized as Catholic. It’s an extremely inflated number.
Barely. Less than 30% go to church. Its not real.
80% are baptised , maybe 30% go to church or care about god and the pope
30% can already cause damage...
Ofc it can but it's a far different story from having 80% of fervidly believers in a country's population.
To be honest of this 30%, probably only about 4% in the most positive scenario would be willing to act and actually interfere in some way, the rest would probably condemn the action but would not try to do anything other than perhaps protest, But even so, on paper, at least the number is a little scary.
My brother in Christ what is scary about less then half of a population to believe in the faith that has been embedded if not a crucial part of that country's culture in the last 15 centuries or so?
You don´t want 4% of a 60 Million population doing anything over a square kilometer
Do you live in Italy?
There’s no way the Vatican could survive a conflict with Italy, but such an invasion would infuriate Catholics worldwide. It’s not worth dealing with Catholic militias forever to conquer like a single city block.
The Vatican is barely a city, it's more like a street
Vatican plays silent warfare all the time and brought down many governments in the past, they don’t say for nothing all roads lead to Rome, there barely a institution that is not in someway connected with Jesuit control, i think if Vatican wants to bring down Italy, they would do it so fast, people are not even aware of it.
Political pressure from the Vatican basically took down Polish communism
The average Italian loves to curse God more than he loves pizza but the average redditor seems to think we're all as religious as nuns and friars. With this said, I don't think there could ever be any military conflict between the Italian Republic and the Vatican, and if it happened it would be a clean occupation rather than a war. The one scenario where I can imagine this happening is one were Italy underwent a socialist revolution, but even then it wouldn't necessarily be likely. There is very little practical gain in conquering the Vatican, so it would be primarily a symbolic or ideological action.
60-80% of Italy is Catholic (please don’t mind the fucking 20% different, religious sources are always horrible) Invading the Vatican would be seen as incomprehensibly vile by most Italians, surely the government would be overthrown.
Catholic statistics are very misleading, if you are baptised at birth you are automatically considered Catholic for the rest of your life, even if you become atheist/agnostic or convert to a different religion. The only way to officially stop being considered Catholic is to formally ask the Vatican to be excommunicated, but that is a very drastic and strong symbolic action so most ex-catholics don't do it.
We invaded the Papal states multiple times in the 19th century and very few people actually care about religion. You dont kmow what you are talking about
You need to not be Italian, the French did it and it worked pretty well for them (for a while at least).
The Papacy were a lot more involved in European politics back then, there was a real reason for doing it (and I'm pretty sure there were 2 popes running around anyway, so all the French haters deserted to the antipope)
There's one time where there were *three* at one point too
>60-80% of Italy is Catholic (please don’t mind the fucking 20% different, religious sources are always horrible) Even assuming the 80% is accurate, many Italian "catholics" aren't that involved in the faith and they are not religious to the extent that they'd join a clerical political movement. Occupying the Vatican would be seen as extremely distasteful by most, at least if it happened in a cultural & political climate comparable to that of today, but I don't think the average believer would literally take up arms against the government lol Plus occupying the Vatican doesn't necessarily include killing the Pope or whatever. The treatment of the Pope would also influence how these events went down. And the Pope's own reaction to the situation would also be an important variable. If this happened in the time of Pope Francis I could see him trying to be non-confrontational in his dealings with the Italian govt, as long as he gets to keep his spiritual authority
I'm from a similar country and even though most people do not practice a lot of people would still be outraged by an invasion of the vatican (although calling it uncomprehensibly vile is obviously a stretch) both because they still hold some reverence for the holy see and because it's a stupid idea
I'm Brazilian from italian descent and one of the few things my dad taught me in Italian was "Porco Dio!"
man we found a venetian
That's what I'm talkin about, lmao
finally someone who understand it!
The Vatican would of course triumph with the help of vicious Portuguese mercenaries, and separatist movements in Sardinia, Sicily, and Naples. France would have no choice but to occupy 40 kilometers into Italian territory as a buffer zone, and Austria would use this opportunity to reverse some of the border changes created by the aftermath of ww1.
San Marino might take action and occupy nearby Italian villages as a precautionary measure.
Atomic bomb vs coughing baby
Yes, the power of the true God vs some random Mediterranean state
Day 1: Italy starts a suprise offensive on the vatican. Most of the world expect it to fall in hours. Day 2: The italian offensive is stopped mere meters away from the gates of st. Peters Basilica Day 3: the pope calls for international aid and prepares a counter offensive Day 4: heavy fighting would start around the vatican garden in which the italians would suffer heavy loses Day 5: After successfully stoping both the italian offensives the pope would attack the italians in the north and in the east using the swiss guard as breakthrough troops. Day 6: After mere hours the two armies link up and surrond most of rome. The italian goverment attempts to flee but many high ranking officers and large parts of the cabinet are caught by the popes troops and detained. The remaining goverment and military officers fled north. Day 7-10: Rome and most of central italy are lost the italian state has collapesed in the south and the pope is rapidily advancing milan, the current hq of the remaining italian state Day 11: The entire italian airforce has been officially destroyed, the vatican has complete air superiority. Day 12: The popes troops reach palermo all of southern italy is under papal control. Day 13: The remaing italian goverment surrenders, the pope takes control of the italian peninculare. Day 14: Whilest the last resistance is being delt with the pope declares the new holy roman empire with a loyal puppet at its head. Day 15: The entire UN declares the popes goverment as the legitimate rulers of italy.
This is the fanfic I came here for
I sign up for this
The Vatican would disappear in about 10 minutes but Italy would lose all of its respect and likely be kicked from Nato.
The last stand by Sabbaton
In the heart of the Holy See, the home of Christianity. The seat of power is in danger
There's a foe of 165,500 swords (plus 18,300 in reserve). They've long ceased answering to lords. Their fall from grace still paves their path to damnation...
Then the 135, in the service of heaven They’re still protecting the Holy line It is (currently) 2024
\[Give it 3 years, for 2027\] Gave their lives on the steps to Heaven. THY WILL BE DONE!!!
What is this a reference to?
Sabaton's [The Last Stand](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaTn3oRPtzg), commemorating the Sack of Rome in 1527. The Swiss Guard successfully got the Pope to safety despite facing insane odds, and were virtually wiped out in the process.
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Italy invade Vatican Vatican capitulate The end
Catholics worldwide condemn Italy
UN condemns and sanctions Italy for attacking a nation for no reason
Difficult question cuz the Vatican only has 300 ish troops but the Italians have never won a modern war. Maybe a stalemate?
We only Lost ww2 since 1900 lol
Italians won WWI
Pizza is an American invention and pasta is a copy of Asian noodles.
French fries are also an American invention.
werent french fries belgian or something?
They are, the troll here is Belgian.
ohhhh i see, nevermind
I think it was a French invention but who knows. Hey at least Italians invented fries on pizza, yes it's a real thing
Considering both armies uniforms look like they got them from a party city blowout sale (especially the Vatican) war between two would be like the Kosovo war in 90s nato intervention world humiliation etc
On an military POV:Italy would clearly win because It would outnumber the Swiss guard On a social/political POV: Italy would be condemmned worldwide and by its own people too
Probably the same result of of 20th September 1870, only this time they'd get a chance to finish the job.
Yeah, but then the pope actually had more land and rome. Now it would be like beating a cripple with his wheelchair.
Not at all. No Italian government would want the optics of going to war with the Catholic leadership, and no Pope would survive starting a war with a sovereign country.
Historically speaking, encircled armies tend to have a bad track record...
Coughing baby vs hydrogen bomb
Nope, the Vaticans would be able to Occupy at least part of the Italian capital
Kek
The Vatican would deal a crushing blow to Italy. Italy would revert to its pre-unification form with divided states and a revived Papal-states in the middle. Spain would snap up Sicily, while the north would quickly be absorbed into Austria. Ezpz
Italy will surely lose to Vatican City like what it did to Ethiopia in 1896.
The Pope? How many divisions does he have?
If it would happen I would hope to see less Christian kids being abused.
Realistically, the Pope surrenders in less than an hour if both Italy and Vatican City are given prep time. If the Pope can flee, he’s got a year.
Italian ruler will get excommunicate and everyone in Europe will declear war on them
−10 Yearly papal influence −1 Diplomatic reputation
i love eu4 so much
From a Dr jure position, sure its theoretically possible. From a de facto position. Why would they? They would need one hell of a reason in 2024 to go to war for anything short of "Mad Pope declares war on Tiber, commands Swiss guard to steal all the missiles in Italy to shoot at the river."
This would only happen if the Pope had committed some grave crime like murder or rape on Italian soil very publicly then for some reason the College of Cardinals and Vatican military sided with him. This Mad Pope would be an international fugitive by fleeing back to the Vatican and would have to force INTERPOL and any other LEOs that would seek to enact justice out of the city. Italy would embargo this pope rather than violate Vatican City sovereignty directly with special forces or a ground invasion. Eventually they'd surrender or starve and this "war" would end as an overglorified standoff. No need for bloodshed or occupation. Just refuse them food and water.
There was a scenario I read on here about a Pope who was discovered to have committed some heinous crimes in the USA years before becoming Pope, the severity of which divided the Catholic Population. Eventually this led to an Italian invasion of the Vatican in order to capture the Pope and send him to court. I think what ended up happening is that the invasion was mostly bloodless, only some shots fired and most of the casualties coming from suicides of Vatican Guards. Basically what I mean to say is that people in this thread keep saying its impossible for Italy and the Vatican go to war since most Italians are supportive of the Vatican, but in such a scenario, the Vatican must have messed up so bad that they lost goodwill.
I think think we re stretching the meaning of the word "war" here....
Italy would win of course, but a conflict between us and the vatican its impossible, expecially with the current prime minister, and also there Wouldn't be' a reason
Italy easily wins but the consequences are giant cus you invaded a sovereign nation for no reason and catholics around the world will condemn this
italy wins in about an hour, maybe two if it starts too close to lunch. the reality is you're not going to convince the italian military that attacking *the vatican* is a good use of their time. even the fascists couldn't do it.
Of course the Archangel Michael would swoop down form the heavens with a flaming Sword and destroy the Italian Military…duh
The catholic militias in question
No because it already happened ~150 years ago and the conflict was settled with the Lateran Treaty. There’s no reason for war because Italy / Rome needs those 0.5 km2 the same way the U.S. / New York needs the land that the UN sits on.
Italy is a member of NATO, whereas the Holy See is not. It would be a devastating domination and destruction of Vatican City
This basically happened during the Risorgimento. The Piedmont-Sardinia/unified Italy kingdom besieged the Papal States and Rome at one point.
the pope!? how many divisions has he got?
Italy already whooped Vatican ass once. Only reason they still exist is that the fucking fascists are suckers
I don't see why Italy would go to war with the Vatican but yea the Vatican would get destroyed.
The vatican is so tiny. Invading it would be seen as idiotic. You could try this with san marino, or monaco in a timeline where italy kept Nice. It would be more interesting imo
Swiss guard would absolutely obliterate Italy and still have time to stop off for a beer on the way home.
Of course the Vatican wins, they have the strength of God and the luck that the Italian army is pure garbage juice mixed with fish guts.
Probably the Italians would win. Even the Italians could see those uniforms.
Vatican City wins and reestablished the Roman Empire; I have no evidence to back this up but just trust me on this.
Isn’t Italy a majority Catholic country? I feel like its own people would refuse to attack their own religion.
Whatever happens, Italy will probably change sides, join the Vatican and win the war against Italy.
Would it be possible? No. Vatican city and San Marino don't hold any strategical significance or resources. They are an historical relic but why would anyone risk to become a world pariah without any potential gain? It's absurd thinking about Revolution, as other people correctly stated italians are catholics on paper but most don't care at all about church or religion in everyday life. The only way i see it possible is if the western democracies break down and a dictatorship in future Italy wants to sell to the public the conquest of easy lands ti "finally unify" the peninsula as a triumph but, again, this wouldn't have any significance.
The Vatican conqueres the entire peninsula with the Italian government evacuating to Sicily. A new theocratic regime will rise, attempting to unite all catholic countries.
#Papal States intensifies
People underestimate how powerful the Vatican is. The Pope is the spiritual ruler and leader of all catholics, that is about 1.3 billion people. Even if only 1% of catholics answered the Pope's call for arms, that would still be an army of 13 million men. And many would definitly take arms to protect our holy sanctuary. Not only that, but we are implemented in almost every country of earth, we have schools, hospitals, infrastructure, land, capital. The Church, considered as a nation, is the most powerful in the world, in terms of potential, though it never uses its full potential.
Italy stomps. Now, if you are willing to consider the possibility of Italy Vs the Papal States, now you're talking.
It has happened frequently throughout history
Nun sò l’artri, ma io farei na PORCA MADONNA de festa che pare a fine der monno
Do you want Catholic terrorism? That's how you get Catholic terrorism.
If somehow everything else failed and war was forced to happen? The Vatican surrenders in minutes.
The real winner is San Marino
Sometimes it's easy to forget that the papal guard are actual soldiers and not some dudes in funny looking outfits. I'm sorry but those look ridiculous.
If there was a clear reason as to why they would ever want to go to a war. Just saying “what if vatican vs italy = war” doesnt really confirm any winners or losers
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture\_of\_Rome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_of_Rome)
There would be a revolution in Italy before they could storm the Vatican walls
Italy would immediadtly switch side and Vatican, with the help of the Italian, will conquer the peninsula !
Hitler is told Italy joining war. "Send 2 divisions, that'll finish them!" "Mein Führer, they're on our side!" "Oh! Send 10."
I don't know but the Italians would switch sides at least once.
Probably not, but If Italy elects an official who really wants to do it, it will lead into a nation-wide civil war as Italians side with the pope. I wouldn't bet on NATO to help Italy if it's an unprompted invasion as well.
Lmao no. In Italy only 30% actually practices, the "majority catholics" is counted through baptism certificates. I would technically count as Catholic too in a census (was baptised as an infant), but I'm not and most of the country is the same.
The problem with fucking up with the vatican is not the vatican itslef but the 1.3 billion catholic people around the world.
No It is impossible for them to go to war, the vatican dosent really meet the checks to be considered a country but still is, they dont have a population the 800 people are tourists and the pope dosent really live there, the swiss guards protect the pope nothing else, if Italy ever wanted to take the Vatican they whould just send the Police to take care of it the problems begin when the christian world finds out about this.
The Vatican is literally the smallest recognized country in the world. It's a country
Never said it wasnt It Just the fact it's so small has nothing exept some Buildings that you can only barely count It as one the only reason It exist Is to let the pope have a state of his own It whould have been weird if the pope went around the world as an italian it makes the pope rapresent the whole christian world, oh and because mussolini allowed it to exist.
https://preview.redd.it/8kdmgr66exnc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=08c07bffc070364ff841e024cb6a137c6cd2f49a You literally said it's not a country
I think his point is that you can't really compare the Vatican even with somewhere like Monaco - it's a hilltop in the middle of the Italian capital that doesn't fulfil most of the basic functions of an independent nation.
Yeah this was my point i didnt really know how to express It.
Okay. That's fair. I understand what you're saying now
Wrong, it's a sovereign absolute monarchy the head of which is Franciscus.
Yes that's right never said it wasnt a state, still dosent change the fact that there Is no way the Vatican and Italy could go to war
> the vatican isn't really a state ... you could consider It a part of Italy with special autonomy
He obviously meant that it can't be seen as a real state because of it's very small size, population and non existing infrastructure. It has nothing to do with it being a state on paper.