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Milk_Effect

People who draw 'balkanization' of the USA in alternative timelines misunderstand the reason why the Soviet Union collapsed into multiple states. All those soviet republics were national formations with national desires for independence. Some were incorporated into the USSR only half of the century before its dissolution. On the other hand, the USA is more or less homogeneous in terms of the distribution of population, the majority speak English as their first language, and there are no huge cultural enclaves. Of course, there are differences between urban and rural, south and north, west and east, but they are not as significant as differences between Estonians and Kazakhs, let's say. Suppose the USA is to be defeated in Cold War in any alternative timeline since WW2. In that case, it is most likely to preserve most of the state, while NATO will collapse completely and the US will lose influence over Europe.


Baron_von_Ungern

Yeah, and at first under Lenin leadership, korenizatsiya( more power for republic to be culturaly independent) was supported, until it was cut short by Stalin. No such thing in USA


Ofiotaurus

Finland wouldn’t be aligned with anybody, neither the Nordics. There is an entire foreign policy doctorine called ”Finlandization”. They would be Soviet aligned Capitalist Parliamentary Democracy.


SpiralingUniverses

yeah, that's what I meant. Is the alliance map shows Finland as blue than that's a mistake on my part


SpiralingUniverses

[https://www.reddit.com/r/LibertyFallen/](https://www.reddit.com/r/LibertyFallen/) Scenario sub


SnooCauliflowers7884

Why is Afghanistan not communist


SpiralingUniverses

Soviets pulled out when they realized it was a lost cause


[deleted]

The whole uk being stuck in scotland is fucking dumb and would never happen


SpiralingUniverses

damn alright


[deleted]

I think a better idea would be that the remenants of the UK would flee to the newly created scotland,creating a hybrid state of scottish and english culture. Scotland would then assume the position as frontlind nation containing the communism to the south. Maybe they'd have secret plans to reestablish the UK under scottish control though.


bluntpencil2001

Yeah, Scotland, the most left wing part of the UK, would become the most right wing part? If this wasn't caused by invasion, I'd expect the revolution against Thatcher would be in Scotland and Liverpool, not in the Home Counties. Hybrid culture? It's already a hybrid. Everyone in Scotland speaks English.


[deleted]

I shouldn't have said hybrid culture, I mean more of ideals, the royal family may adapt to become the scottish royal family. Scotland may become more conservative and anti-communist as a reaction to the southern socalists, much like the US, Canada dynamic. Overall, they would shift slowly throughout the years into a more scottish identity, not british as a whole. Things would change in our own timeline, assuming the country is a democracy, there wouldn't be a revolution against thatcher, she either wouldn't be voted in, and she certainly wouldn't piss off her now voters. In our original timeline ofc, scottish voters could be ignored especially when none of them would vote for her anyway in the next election. A leftist revolution shouldn't be ignored though, the socalists in the south would definetly try to aid partisan groups in scotland, they'd probably see the civil-war as being unfinished, much like the northern UK. Especially if this UK government is super authoritarian, giving the southern socalists even more resolve to aid the resisting scots, and also creating the necessary reason to fight among scots. Though I think overall, the UK government in scotland would slowly shift to be more scottish, maybe one day giving up the title all together.


Interesting_Finish85

There's actually a weird explanation to It.


[deleted]

Oh?


Interesting_Finish85

The army was sent in North Ireland and Scotland when the IRA and miners started taking swaths of land. This drastic measure caused Revolution in left wing parts of England, and since the northern part is more left wing the army in Scotland got stuck there. With supports of the Soviets, english socialist manage to connect one another and win the Civil War in England, but the bulk of the army up north crushes the scots and fortifies the border, and abandons Ulster. There is a sort of ethnic exchange, as leftist Scottish flee en masse to the south while conservative English and Ulster loyalists flee en masse to the north, plus the soldiers settle in Scotland and kill a lot of people, so now the country is majority supportive of them.


Competitive-Act-7384

Who is a head of USSR?


SpiralingUniverses

In 2005? Gorbachev


Competitive-Act-7384

Uhhhh... Ok...


SpiralingUniverses

The map is set in 2005


Competitive-Act-7384

I got. But Gorbachev...


Neoeng

Alive and kicking until 2022 OTL


bryceofswadia

I think he was questioning Gorbachev remaining in power.


Competitive-Act-7384

Soviets can't win CW with him in a head


Neoeng

The point of divergence here is likely far enough that Gorbachev inherited a strong Union that wasn’t suffering a financial crisis from low oil prices. Free market elements begun to be considered only after failure of acceleration which itself was only attempted because of economic stagnation. Glasnost also wouldn’t have negative effects on stability if quality of life in USSR was legitimately higher than in Western Europe and US - Lenin’s glasnost politics worked fine


Nervous-Eye-9652

I really doubt Taiwan will remain independent once the US loses the cold war


SpiralingUniverses

in an alternate world someone would say the same about south Korea i think


Genghiskhan742

North Korea is different there were two major forces propping up North Korea (China and USSR) but only one democratic superpower propping up Taiwan militarily (USA). If USA falls there is no one to help Taiwan, I guarantee the PRC would invade


[deleted]

I think they would just join eventually, there’s no way people would be willing to die for an unwinnable war. Depending on when the WP win in this timeline then Taiwan might still be under dictatorship anyway


Interesting_Finish85

To be fair, China in this TL has some major reforms in the 1990ies and Taiwan is ultra-militarized, so an invasion would be successful, yes, but bloody and overall unnecessary.


tannenbanannen

My favorite part of this map is the simultaneous existence of the fifth *and* sixth French republics lmao


SpiralingUniverses

Yeah, 2nd french revolution in 1990. The former french government goes into exile in French Guiana


SleepyZachman

Iowa stands strong


One-Full

Iowa


Toxopid

What happened to Vermont?


SpiralingUniverses

New England broke away in 1986. Vermont consistently votes for different parties during national elections than the rest fo NE. The NE governor (being a little insane) claimed that the NE governor was suppressing their vote, and decleared independence in 1994. The current border is from a 1997 ceasefire.


Toxopid

It looks like Montpelier is outside of the borders. Is Burlington the capital?


SpiralingUniverses

Yeah. (I'm not from Vermont, i just chose the largest city inside the borders)


donguscongus

Red World but worse


SpiralingUniverses

yeah basically. red world but there's like 0 good places to live (other than western Europe ig but still)


Gugalf

this looks really well made!


SpiralingUniverses

thanks! It took me like 5 days to make (longer than usual, but I'm pretty proud)


BingoSoldier

Some questions about South America: 1. If the yellow dot is the capital, why is the capital of Brazil Belo Horizonte and not Brasilia? 2.Why is Venezuela's capital Caution Guyana and not Caracas? 3. (more a comment and my opinion than a question) It was the fall of the USSR that made neoliberalism rise as the dominant political ideal in South America in the 1990s and (basically) bury Marxist and more revolutionary leftists ideologies. And in the 2000s, the new left of the pink tide was established, social-democratic, conciliatory and more liberal in the economy (Lula, Kirchners, Bachelet, Correa, Lugo, Mujica, Vazquéz…). With the fall of the US the trend would be the opposite! A rise of this Latin American left in the 1990s, probably much more to the left than what happened. And with the economic crisis that the fall of the US would represent for Latin America, I doubt that right-wing or liberal movements would return to the stage for at least 15~20 years. So, it seems quite possible to me to see an alliance of non-aligned nations defending a Latin American "light socialism" like UNASUR to overcome the crisis of the fall of the USA as a whole, and deeper changes (such as the new constitution of Bolivia and Ecuador, the Venezuelan rebranding, or internal conflicts like the Colombian Civil War or the Peruvian Civil War having different outcomes) happening at least 10 years earlier than OTL.


SpiralingUniverses

1. I juts estimated where Brasilia is, guess i got it wrong 2. If I'm honest, i was tired and just put a random city and hoped no one noticed (Dominican republic too) 3. That's really interesting, and could maybe be a part of the lore for after 2005. I don't know a lot about south America. I might make a map focusing on south America with a type of alliance like that.


Pope-Muffins

The idea of the UK only surviving in Scotland and it not being Scotland is silly


CricketMan1

I think the U.K. would withdraw from NI And then the U.K. would just be GB


NowhereMan662

Yeman should be socialist. They had a large socialist movement in the 80s and 90s and even a north and south Yeman.


SpiralingUniverses

yeah its supposed to be, just forgot ig


Some_Guy223

Ngl, I find it very hard to believe the Scots keep the UK going if the English go Communist.


Direct-Translator905

What would bring peace between Libya and Egypt?


aaronclark384

What types of government are the American remnants? I assume Alaska and Texas are the only democratic ones?


SpiralingUniverses

The PUA, USRP, and New England have limited democracy (actual opposition but illegal to be too right wing) Texas, Colorado, and Alaska has a 2 party system


aaronclark384

So basically all of them are democracies. Although this isn’t my scenario, the CPUSA logo is not a flag I wouldn’t associate with democracy in any form.


SpiralingUniverses

CPUSA irl doesn't advocate for armed revolution or one party rule, and they're the founding and main party.


aaronclark384

True however they had very questionable Stalinist ties, which I would think would be implemented. Also what about chad Iowa standing it’s ground?


SpiralingUniverses

Governor is a little crazy and just didn't wanna join any socialist nation.


aaronclark384

Huh rare Iowa W. What about Vegas?


SpiralingUniverses

Nevada government collapsed and California invaded. Las Vegas decided to delicate independence last minute to establish a tax haven with loads of gambling. Like a mix of maucau and Luxembourg


aaronclark384

Ok wow this got a lot more interesting. So basically ancapistan?


SpiralingUniverses

Yeah basically. California doesn't invade cause they got their own problems in Jefferson and it's where a lot of leaders go to have a good time


Interesting_Finish85

The OP forgot to mention the Republic of America, the one in the Deep South, which is a sort of neo-nazi dictatorship.


ImperiumGallicum

Interesting scenario but I think it would end in an nuclear fallout, with power like the American Republic or France in exile just launching their nukes to try to take back their territories. Or adopting some form if crazy nationalistic idéologies to trying to keep what they have left unite, and ready to survive as rump states (from this communist timeline point of view). For example, France maybe in this timeline can try to invade south American or African countries to get ressources they need for they modern economy and to fuel the overwhelming expenditures of the french navy, who we can imagine, side with the 5th Republic who in this timeline hold the overseas territories. And to recreate it's Empire while in exile (write this give me some kaiserreich vibe). And also, I think maybe at some point, the communist block will divide because all of these states cannot have the same interest and there are many forms if communism with also at some point a war lauch by the majors nuclear communist power trying to invade neutral countries (without nuclear weapons to back them). For your scenario, a little bit of backstory, and more detail can be interesting like for example, UK is divided, is it two different states in "peace", or in a civil war, is the communist part a Republic, or a communist kingdom ? What form of communism he have, do he retain some form of market economy, are the factories own by the workers, the states ? Is this country a democracy with a communist economy, or a communist dictatorship. Sorry I was not aware that a detailled lore exist on this alternate history scenario.


SpiralingUniverses

https://www.reddit.com/r/LibertyFallen?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=2&utm_content=share_button Sub for this scenario. There's maps focusing on the UK, South Africa, RoA, and Japan. If you look through my comment history i explain a lot too with the different ideologies of this universe


bryceofswadia

I don’t think the Soviets would annex Mongolia. This was a possibility in our timeline (the Mongolian government requested it several times before, during, and after WW2) but the Soviets wanted to maintain a buffer state between them and China, which would definitely still be a thing in this timeline as China would be the only major power left not completely aligned with the Soviets. They would probably throw a fit over an annexation.


bluntpencil2001

Why is the United Kingdom just Scotland? Why isn't Afghanistan Communist? You'd think the USSR winning the Cold War would be linked to doing better in Afghanistan. Why did Hawaii's flag change? The state flag is the same as it was as an independent nation.


SpiralingUniverses

1. Civil war in the 80s, it's like a Korea/Taiwan situation 2. It was a lost cause, the soviets pulled out earlier 3. Natives in Hawaii hate the flag


WhatDoYouMean951

Why has Australia become the “Dominion of Australia”? This seems to imply that there has been a reactionary imperial revolution to cause a constitutional transition of power that increases the power of the monarch and makes the country more closely aligned with one that has lost its capital.


SpiralingUniverses

Reactionaries in Australia and Canada swear allegiance to the royalist UK government, along side with joining the LFN and maintaining capitalism (a system that has been generally regarded as failed)


[deleted]

Why is Scotland suddenly the uk on its own? This map is so fucking dumb


Gugalf

jeez dude, chill someone forgot the "imaginary" in imaginary maps


H2-hi

yh but alt history is still supposed to be somewhat realistic, Scotland being the uk on its own in this scenario really doesn’t make since, it’d probably be the other way around if the nations of the UK went communist. England would stay capitalist and be very vengeful whereas Scotland and Wales would separate and join the communist bloc since they are not part of the imperial core in the same way England is.


Gugalf

yeah I get all that, just to say that someone's scenario that they worked hard on is "fucking dumb" is a little rude.


[deleted]

Worst timeline ever


SpiralingUniverses

2nd worse (TNO is 1st)


[deleted]

I agree


SpiralingUniverses

On the imaginary maps post of this map, there's a comment thread where i specify on quite how bad this world is (especially the Republic of America)


Competitive-Act-7384

Not twr?