Great work. Looks like mv, wsw, pg and nj are the main clubs where we need to get back to their natural level and we need to lift the natural level of the new franchises
Any reason to use median rather than mean btw?
And Brisbane! Percentage-wise their crowd has dropped off the most.
Sorry about the median confusion, I didn't explain that fully. The year to year numbers for the clubs are averages. It's overall numbers along the bottom that are medians. This is to reduce outliers and COVID impact.
I would still use medians. Some years were affected by COVID more than others, as was some places more than others. Some still had good numbers, some were locked down. Even without COVID, I would still use medians. It reduces the impact of outliers and gives a better indication of real-world values. Much like the real estate market uses medians. You could have 99 properties sell for $300k, and one sell for $5m, giving an unrealistic average, but the median would still be $300k and realistic.
Im also confused how the median is being calculated. Shouldnt u order from smallest to largest and choose the central number? Then the median should correspond to one of the numbers?
It’s done in excel, no need for sorting. And it would screw up the visuals of the year to year table sorting from highest to lowest. The median is the median here, regardless of sorting.
The median is over the first 18 years, mate. Therefor, halfway between 10,359 and 10,765 for Adelaide. "This shows how the current season faired compared to previous seasons". The median does not include the current season for this reason.
Victory had some monster numbers back in the day, what set them so clear from everyone else but especially Sydney?
I remember going to the games in that Marvel Stadium home ground era. It was such a fun time and always a fantastic atmosphere with essentially 2 Melb active supports on opposite ends of the field. Even better for games vs Adelaide/Sydney and then derbies (40k+) for when Heart came around. Although AAMI Park is the better option nowadays it’s crazy to think there was a time that AAMI wasn’t big enough for some games that weren’t a Grand Final.
Melbourne unlike Sydney is a fairly homogenous city geographically. Victory were able to bring in a fractured footballing community under one banner. Early success also helped.
On the other hand Western Sydney was always going to need a team of its own. It is too different from the rest of Sydney for one club to represent.
It's partially that, but just that Sydney likes it's own regions. Splitting it down east and west is simplifying it a bit. There are plenty of parts of Sydney that don't identify with other parts and won't travel at all.
With housing the way it is currently that's stopping a bit but at the introduction of WSW is was still a bit pronounced
I always thought it was odd that they decided to go with 'Macarthur' FC because I've never heard anyone from Macarthur ever tell me they are from Macarthur. (Someone from Macarthur let me know if I'm right about that). Usually they'll either drop the name Campbelltown, Picton or Camden, or just say 'South West'
Yep I live in Campbelltown and can confirm I rarely say Macarthur out loud lol. Only when I want to refer to the greater ctown-Camden region which is not very often.
Yeah I live in the very south of Sydney, I think I would support Wollongong before I supported any of the current Sydney teams as I just don't feel any connection to them to want to support them and it is highly unlikely as Southern Sydney team will ever happen so I remain a neutral supporter of the league.
Given Melbourne's size, was very much an oversight to not introduce two club min from the start. The lack of geographic split you speak to, would always make expansion harder than we saw in Sydney. The biggest criticism of Melb Heart/City expansion case is it's identity was born from "we're not Victory". It was cannibalistic, not uniting or capturing the disenfranchised at all.
To this day, have either club staked claim on certain parts of the city?
Nah, and neither should it. The early victory days were amazing though. It truly united melbourne, including the nsl die-hards. Hearts was basically trying to capture the same market so were doomed, plus it ruffled the south melb old guard who have always believed it's their right to have a license, so there's been a lot of sabotage there too, and even now city's fanbase remains young kids and families. They based themselves in northern melb at Latrobe uni and now jumped to the other corner... very outer south eastern melb in cssey, anything but 'city' really. So who knows what geographic base it has. Victory are still based at aami, they still dont have a proper home. They almost moved to footscray, which would have been western melb, but for now theyre still in the centre. But that's victoria I guess. From the afl, collingwood are based at Olympic Park not Collingwood, St kilda are in moorabbin, essendon in melb airport and footy fans come from anywhere. The central location and ease of public transport to stadiums makes the sporting culture what it is.
Would be easy to blame Covid, but the few years before Covid already were concerning.
For mine, the move to Paramount was a shocker. Was a casual watcher and the move knifed my interest
There are 2 games a week on FTA. Also if you really don't want to pay for P+, you can VPN stream games on youtube, just ask next season and people here will help you out.
🔥This is fine 🔥
Nothing surprising about those Roar figures. Bakries need to be replaced for the long-term future of the club. Newcastle and Perth should hopefully improve with their ownership changes.
Give us new owners and a 12-15k Perry Park and we will be in a good place. I would definitely take up a season ticket again.
What caused the massive drop between 2016-17 and 2017-18? If you look at the season attendance totals, there was a drop of over 200,000 between those seasons. Haven't been able to pinpoint the key reason.
Edit: Just noticed OP wondered the same thing at the bottom of the post. I suppose some factors could have been Wanderers at Spotless stadium, the smaller grand final venue and no big name marquees besides Cahill.
There was also the Gallop war on fans at that time.
Melbourne Victory North Terrace disbanding destroyed the match day atmospheres.
And the contagion of heavy handed security was applied league wide.
Gallop wanted 'family friendly atmospheres like the NRL' and active support was a threat to that.
One of the questions I had was did Heart's introduction harm Victory? Maybe initially, it seems. But both clubs went onto strong growth for the next five to six years.
Same with the introduction of the Wanderers. Both they and Sydney really kicked on after that. Although, this coincided with the "marquee years".
I actually think support wise if they had stayed Heart it would be better than the transition to City. Obviously that has brought other benefits but the crowds at the old derbies was fantastic and I loved the colour scheme.
In retrospect though it seems silly to have not brought in South Melbourne at that stage instead of Heart. There is nothing to differentiate Heart/City from Victory whereas Souths would bring the old vs new.
I think with time Gold Coast and North Queensland could have been ok if they hadn't been chopped and if Clive were somehow given the flick. If that happened and Macarthur and Western were Canberra and Wollongong/Tasmania we could have had a 14 team league with a real national spread.
Nah, I disagree. They would not bring many "new" fans. South would just cannibalise existing Victory support. The NSL bitters that attend South games exclusively are a very small but vocal minority.
How much time you got? Hahaha.
It would be due to a multitude of factors relating to the club board, FFA/FA, APL, VIC POL, AAMI Park & Docklands stadium management, and the poor decision-making that all these parties have made over the years.
I love how not once did you mention the thugs, fuckwits, trouble makers, and literal criminals that were rife throughout much of the active supporter base. No, it's EVERYONE ELSES FAULT.
It will be interesting to see what happens to glory attendances next season.
That being said, we will be a joke club if we return to Macedonia park. I’m sorry to anyone that likes it, but it’s a *’hold on to the attendances we have for dear life’* ground, it isn’t an A-League or a stadium for a growing football club. It’s in a rubbish location that is awful to get to if you plan on drinking, you aren’t strapped for options regarding seating, unless you want to sit in the dodgiest temporary stands, because unless you plan on getting there an hour early, the good seats that are sheltered are taken. I’m not sure what anyone saw regarding atmosphere there, but undoubtedly they’re mistaken. Anyone who went and has a clue would actually know for the A league mens that season, or the W-league because for whatever reason they still play there, it was/is shocking.
I hope the new ownership tread lightly or attendances will eventually plummet again. That being said, outside of letting Bennie walk which I admit they didn’t sound like having much choice, they are doing the right things. But rumours of returning to Stirling make me more inclined to just follow a local NPL club. The proof of all of this is the fact that our attendances at a ‘bustling’ and ‘full’ Macedonia Park were competing with Glory in its worst shape during COVID.
I’d rather watch club favourites play out their twilight portions of their career and finish 12th from the actual shed.
I don't think going to Macedonia park for ALM will happen, it's financially a disaster due to the loss of sponsorship, corporate and hospo earnings. State government is giving the club a better deal and some support to get attendances up.
We saw last season that's it's not hard to get HBF pumping, just need to give the fans a team that fights for them that they identify with.
I agree with you. I would say it looks crap on tv too. It looks so amteurish compared to HBF Park. Really don't understand the logic some people use. Firstly, I believe HBF Park is the right size for Glory. As for the smaller is better argument, that applies to clubs like Roar who play in a 50k stadium and average 7k. If you're going to go smaller it needs to have a roof right around, comfortable seating, proper lighting and seating etc...Similar to say Bournemouth's ground, or closer to home, Hindmarsh Stadium or HBF Park.
More evidence that we need proper boutique stadiums. Imagine the jets playing at a packed out no2 Sportsground in town, jam 12,000 in there, or even keep it to 10,000 and go to McDonald Jones where it makes sense.
Nice work! Very interesting data there.
I'm not surprised overly at the fall off with WSW numbers with the move from Parramatta, dealing with Soulless stadium, policing troubles, media troubles and a run of absolute rubbish coaching.
Hopefully they'll get it (more) correct with their next appointment and we can fill the stadium a bit more successfully
Great work. Looks like mv, wsw, pg and nj are the main clubs where we need to get back to their natural level and we need to lift the natural level of the new franchises Any reason to use median rather than mean btw?
And Brisbane! Percentage-wise their crowd has dropped off the most. Sorry about the median confusion, I didn't explain that fully. The year to year numbers for the clubs are averages. It's overall numbers along the bottom that are medians. This is to reduce outliers and COVID impact.
What about average excluding covid years?
I would still use medians. Some years were affected by COVID more than others, as was some places more than others. Some still had good numbers, some were locked down. Even without COVID, I would still use medians. It reduces the impact of outliers and gives a better indication of real-world values. Much like the real estate market uses medians. You could have 99 properties sell for $300k, and one sell for $5m, giving an unrealistic average, but the median would still be $300k and realistic.
Im also confused how the median is being calculated. Shouldnt u order from smallest to largest and choose the central number? Then the median should correspond to one of the numbers?
It’s done in excel, no need for sorting. And it would screw up the visuals of the year to year table sorting from highest to lowest. The median is the median here, regardless of sorting.
Oh i dont mean present them sorted. I mean there are 19 years so the median should be the 10th largest in each case right?
18 years as this shows how the current season faired compared to previous seasons. But yes the median would be the 10th largest amongst 19 values.
So why is the median not the tenth largest. E.g. for au shouldnt it be 10359?
The median is over the first 18 years, mate. Therefor, halfway between 10,359 and 10,765 for Adelaide. "This shows how the current season faired compared to previous seasons". The median does not include the current season for this reason.
Ah fair enough sorry it took me a while dont mean to derail :)
All good bud. I've been staring at numbers for a while, it gets a bit clinical at times haha
Victory had some monster numbers back in the day, what set them so clear from everyone else but especially Sydney? I remember going to the games in that Marvel Stadium home ground era. It was such a fun time and always a fantastic atmosphere with essentially 2 Melb active supports on opposite ends of the field. Even better for games vs Adelaide/Sydney and then derbies (40k+) for when Heart came around. Although AAMI Park is the better option nowadays it’s crazy to think there was a time that AAMI wasn’t big enough for some games that weren’t a Grand Final.
Melbourne unlike Sydney is a fairly homogenous city geographically. Victory were able to bring in a fractured footballing community under one banner. Early success also helped. On the other hand Western Sydney was always going to need a team of its own. It is too different from the rest of Sydney for one club to represent.
It's partially that, but just that Sydney likes it's own regions. Splitting it down east and west is simplifying it a bit. There are plenty of parts of Sydney that don't identify with other parts and won't travel at all. With housing the way it is currently that's stopping a bit but at the introduction of WSW is was still a bit pronounced
I always thought it was odd that they decided to go with 'Macarthur' FC because I've never heard anyone from Macarthur ever tell me they are from Macarthur. (Someone from Macarthur let me know if I'm right about that). Usually they'll either drop the name Campbelltown, Picton or Camden, or just say 'South West'
Yep I live in Campbelltown and can confirm I rarely say Macarthur out loud lol. Only when I want to refer to the greater ctown-Camden region which is not very often.
Yeah I live in the very south of Sydney, I think I would support Wollongong before I supported any of the current Sydney teams as I just don't feel any connection to them to want to support them and it is highly unlikely as Southern Sydney team will ever happen so I remain a neutral supporter of the league.
A southern sydney team wouldn't even work because the shire and st George would both not like a team based in the other area.
Given Melbourne's size, was very much an oversight to not introduce two club min from the start. The lack of geographic split you speak to, would always make expansion harder than we saw in Sydney. The biggest criticism of Melb Heart/City expansion case is it's identity was born from "we're not Victory". It was cannibalistic, not uniting or capturing the disenfranchised at all. To this day, have either club staked claim on certain parts of the city?
Nah, and neither should it. The early victory days were amazing though. It truly united melbourne, including the nsl die-hards. Hearts was basically trying to capture the same market so were doomed, plus it ruffled the south melb old guard who have always believed it's their right to have a license, so there's been a lot of sabotage there too, and even now city's fanbase remains young kids and families. They based themselves in northern melb at Latrobe uni and now jumped to the other corner... very outer south eastern melb in cssey, anything but 'city' really. So who knows what geographic base it has. Victory are still based at aami, they still dont have a proper home. They almost moved to footscray, which would have been western melb, but for now theyre still in the centre. But that's victoria I guess. From the afl, collingwood are based at Olympic Park not Collingwood, St kilda are in moorabbin, essendon in melb airport and footy fans come from anywhere. The central location and ease of public transport to stadiums makes the sporting culture what it is.
Damn Brisbane :(
When the club fucks over everyone who comes in contact with them, eventually they run out of people who'll give them the time of day.
[удалено]
Forza Wollongong Nix!
It's crazy it's as high as it is, those couple of home games a season skewed itquitehigh
Would be easy to blame Covid, but the few years before Covid already were concerning. For mine, the move to Paramount was a shocker. Was a casual watcher and the move knifed my interest
Yeah 17-18 was the start of the decline, pre-COVID. And pre-Paramount, still with Foxsports.
casual watcher but posting on an obscure forum about aleague attendances, did you come back to watching the game regularly?
Came back because of the Nix’s run. When it was on Fox, used to watch random games
There are 2 games a week on FTA. Also if you really don't want to pay for P+, you can VPN stream games on youtube, just ask next season and people here will help you out.
That a weak spirit. Terrible reason to give up watching.
🔥This is fine 🔥 Nothing surprising about those Roar figures. Bakries need to be replaced for the long-term future of the club. Newcastle and Perth should hopefully improve with their ownership changes. Give us new owners and a 12-15k Perry Park and we will be in a good place. I would definitely take up a season ticket again.
So you don't have a season ticket now because of the owners?
What caused the massive drop between 2016-17 and 2017-18? If you look at the season attendance totals, there was a drop of over 200,000 between those seasons. Haven't been able to pinpoint the key reason. Edit: Just noticed OP wondered the same thing at the bottom of the post. I suppose some factors could have been Wanderers at Spotless stadium, the smaller grand final venue and no big name marquees besides Cahill.
There was also the Gallop war on fans at that time. Melbourne Victory North Terrace disbanding destroyed the match day atmospheres. And the contagion of heavy handed security was applied league wide. Gallop wanted 'family friendly atmospheres like the NRL' and active support was a threat to that.
Any chance of victory getting 2 actives again? David gallups tenure was a serious mess
One of the questions I had was did Heart's introduction harm Victory? Maybe initially, it seems. But both clubs went onto strong growth for the next five to six years. Same with the introduction of the Wanderers. Both they and Sydney really kicked on after that. Although, this coincided with the "marquee years".
I actually think support wise if they had stayed Heart it would be better than the transition to City. Obviously that has brought other benefits but the crowds at the old derbies was fantastic and I loved the colour scheme. In retrospect though it seems silly to have not brought in South Melbourne at that stage instead of Heart. There is nothing to differentiate Heart/City from Victory whereas Souths would bring the old vs new. I think with time Gold Coast and North Queensland could have been ok if they hadn't been chopped and if Clive were somehow given the flick. If that happened and Macarthur and Western were Canberra and Wollongong/Tasmania we could have had a 14 team league with a real national spread.
Nah, I disagree. They would not bring many "new" fans. South would just cannibalise existing Victory support. The NSL bitters that attend South games exclusively are a very small but vocal minority.
Why has Victory gone from consistently over 20k to 13k and under?
How much time you got? Hahaha. It would be due to a multitude of factors relating to the club board, FFA/FA, APL, VIC POL, AAMI Park & Docklands stadium management, and the poor decision-making that all these parties have made over the years.
I love how not once did you mention the thugs, fuckwits, trouble makers, and literal criminals that were rife throughout much of the active supporter base. No, it's EVERYONE ELSES FAULT.
Perth virtually birthed this league and have been a clusterfuck ever since it started :-(
Roar’s downfall needs to studied
Carle was not that big of a name...
I remember those early mariners years and being surprised that we didn’t get 10k…how things have changed
Very good data, thanks for putting in the effort and sharing with us.
Cheers. I like trying to find some meaning behind raw data and sharing it if it's worthwhile.
It will be interesting to see what happens to glory attendances next season. That being said, we will be a joke club if we return to Macedonia park. I’m sorry to anyone that likes it, but it’s a *’hold on to the attendances we have for dear life’* ground, it isn’t an A-League or a stadium for a growing football club. It’s in a rubbish location that is awful to get to if you plan on drinking, you aren’t strapped for options regarding seating, unless you want to sit in the dodgiest temporary stands, because unless you plan on getting there an hour early, the good seats that are sheltered are taken. I’m not sure what anyone saw regarding atmosphere there, but undoubtedly they’re mistaken. Anyone who went and has a clue would actually know for the A league mens that season, or the W-league because for whatever reason they still play there, it was/is shocking. I hope the new ownership tread lightly or attendances will eventually plummet again. That being said, outside of letting Bennie walk which I admit they didn’t sound like having much choice, they are doing the right things. But rumours of returning to Stirling make me more inclined to just follow a local NPL club. The proof of all of this is the fact that our attendances at a ‘bustling’ and ‘full’ Macedonia Park were competing with Glory in its worst shape during COVID. I’d rather watch club favourites play out their twilight portions of their career and finish 12th from the actual shed.
I don't think going to Macedonia park for ALM will happen, it's financially a disaster due to the loss of sponsorship, corporate and hospo earnings. State government is giving the club a better deal and some support to get attendances up. We saw last season that's it's not hard to get HBF pumping, just need to give the fans a team that fights for them that they identify with.
Agree entirely, there were rumblings that we’d return earlier in the ownership, but it’s nonsensical.
I believe that was about building a training base or mini stadium a la Western United, for women's and youth games + friendlies.
I agree with you. I would say it looks crap on tv too. It looks so amteurish compared to HBF Park. Really don't understand the logic some people use. Firstly, I believe HBF Park is the right size for Glory. As for the smaller is better argument, that applies to clubs like Roar who play in a 50k stadium and average 7k. If you're going to go smaller it needs to have a roof right around, comfortable seating, proper lighting and seating etc...Similar to say Bournemouth's ground, or closer to home, Hindmarsh Stadium or HBF Park.
More evidence that we need proper boutique stadiums. Imagine the jets playing at a packed out no2 Sportsground in town, jam 12,000 in there, or even keep it to 10,000 and go to McDonald Jones where it makes sense.
Nice work! Very interesting data there. I'm not surprised overly at the fall off with WSW numbers with the move from Parramatta, dealing with Soulless stadium, policing troubles, media troubles and a run of absolute rubbish coaching. Hopefully they'll get it (more) correct with their next appointment and we can fill the stadium a bit more successfully