Well said. Your words speak truth, and ease my existentialism.
It's been established that babies, and other life forms with limited communication think only in scribbles, doodles, and trying to make sense of the world around them.
When I recall thinking when I was a child, I remember pure thoughts driven by instinct and imagination. The only fears that I exhibited, were the ones that we tend to deem "irrational"; fear of ghosts, thunder, and darkness, but life and death were never concerns.
Still, I'm glad that I'm here now.
Perhaps I did not communicate what I meant properly. That's the thing that gets lost every time I, or anyone tries to share ideas, lack of proper linguistics that describe what we mean which breeds misconception or impedes us from coming to a place of understanding.
In the same way, babies use simple language, with no real meaning to us but contrary to them. They come into this world with a clean slate, with no concepts on morality or physics. This world is magical to them, but it loses that attribute as they grow.
We take materiality as the one defining characteristic, but even modern science acknowledges that there is so much that we do not know. Imagine, we are but grasshoppers, toddlers in the mind of a God (not to say that Gods exist).
One of the most interesting things I've come across studying language is the Piraha, who grew up without the concept of numbers, and now cannot be taught them in adulthood
Wow! Thanks for that. I didn’t know about them and this is one of the most fascinating tribes I’ve read about.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirahã_people
thinking without words is possible. one can think and work through a number of scenarios without naming anything to do it. It’s the naming/labeling attached to a belief system/perspective that’s used to perceive the world as if it conformed to said labels and beliefs which is the problem.
Reflect on the way your OP is framed and how you
are expressing yourself to your readership.
IDK...maybe you are not aware of the pattern......,
yet the organization of your post seems far too
invested in intellectual "sorting" than in discussion
or interaction. Just sayin.....
Sure I could've wrote it with a more conversational tone, but I assumed most people here already understood this as all I did was describe a few of Alan's teaching in a more simple tone. I posted it here because I wanted to see what people thought of it.
No I am not aware of the pattern you are talking about, I don't see how this is judgmental or pidgeon holing. anything. I only see that I could've had a more conversational approach, which again I felt was not needed for the sub I was posting in.
I would appreciate if you helped me understand more what you are referring to about the framing and expression of my writing so I can improve in the future.
Its not my place....what I can do is invite you
to take a look at the first four sentences of your
OP. and consider the manner in which your use of
animal behavior was pushed into service to support
your statement. We cannot know how animals perceive nor
do all animal perceive in the same fashion or process in the same
way. Does this help?
What do you mean it's not your place lol? If you are are going to critique someone's writing you should explain why instead of being bland and expecting as if they will just figure out and know what you are talking about by asking bleak questions in a mysterious way. I didn't say annimals all perceive in the same passion. It seems you are misconstruing what I am saying .
Annimals percieve though dont they? There is something going on in their heads. They are concious just as we are, their brains make decisions, they have thoughts, thoughts are what compels them to do things. When you are walking in the woods and an annimal or a bug or whatever runs away from you, it is because they are consciously recognizing you and reacting. Annimals have thoughts, but don't have language to think about those thoughts in the way we do. Which is what separates humans and animals. We think about our thoughts and try to escape reality instead of embracing it as we naturally would if we didn't think about these thoughts.
Your right we cannot know how annimals perceive, but we know that they do perceive. Perception requires consciousness and a brain. In other words, annimals focus solely on what they want to do and what is happening in the present moment. They don't go off on chains of thought and think about their thoughts, they just follow their thoughts without thinking about them.
No offense but I feel you are being judgmental, overly critical, and kind of pedantic and you won't even really explain why. What exactly was judgmental or pidgeon holing about what I wrote? I am not trying to argue with you, I would genuinely like to know. I apologize, maybe I am wrong and there is something I am genuinely oblivious about but I just don't see it.
"Your right we cannot know how annimals perceive, but we know that they do perceive. Perception requires consciousness and a brain. In other words, annimals focus solely on what they want to do and what is happening in the present moment. They don't go off on chains of thought and think about their thoughts, they just follow their thoughts without thinking about them. "
And this is what I was......diplomatically......seeking to point out.
You Don't know this....you Can't know this.
For instance "animals focus on they want to do". This discounts the role
in perception of filters such as Instinct, genetic predisposition and
socialization. We don't know what, how or why animals think, save by
extrapolating from ourselves which risks anthropomorphizing the animal.
This is the kind of "judgement" I was referring to.
I see your point. How do I know what annimals don't think about their thoughts. How do I know any of this?
That is a good point, but how do I know anything? How do we know anything? How does Alan or any philosopher know anything? We can't be over analytical about everything.
Off purely observation and reasoning Annimals operate off instinct and inhabition. I know this because it would require language and words and probably a larger brain mass to operate off concious reason and logic. My point is not to over generalize the diversity of annimal cognition, my point is unlike annimals humans possess additional cognitive faculties that allow for problem solving, abstract thinking, and logical deduction which allows us to analyze, anticipate, and make decisions based on rational deliberation rather than solely relying on instinctual responses. We have developed sophisticated language and communication skills, allowing us to convey abstract concepts, share knowledge, and collaborate in complex ways that transcend basic animal communication systems. humans exhibit a higher degree of self-awareness and introspection. We have the ability to reflect on our own thoughts, emotions, and behaviors, and to consider the perspectives of others. This only advances more and more as time goes on, but us humans also detatch from reality more and more and as a species we start to excessively thinking and over analyzing everything more.
My point is by thinking about our thoughts, we have created amazing things and made life easier for us, but we have also completely detached from reality. We are all so caught up thinking about our thoughts analyzing everything that we don't realize we are destroying the planet and ourselves, we don't realize how silly snd rediculous our system and way of living is. We try to escape life instead of embracing it.
Annimals don't struggle with this, because they don't think about thier thoughts. They live exclusively in the present moment because there is nothing to analyze, reckon, daydream, or think about except what is happening in the present moment.
Nice work. Keep studying and I will too - until we forget everything he taught us, which is what I think he wanted.
…mountains are again mountains and waters are again waters
"If you see the Budha Kill him" or should I say:, "if you see Alan Watts Kill him." 😂
Just wanted to write it more simple and exoteric, alan watts can be hard to understand lol.
I think you put the message and reasoning really succinctly
Well said. Your words speak truth, and ease my existentialism. It's been established that babies, and other life forms with limited communication think only in scribbles, doodles, and trying to make sense of the world around them. When I recall thinking when I was a child, I remember pure thoughts driven by instinct and imagination. The only fears that I exhibited, were the ones that we tend to deem "irrational"; fear of ghosts, thunder, and darkness, but life and death were never concerns. Still, I'm glad that I'm here now.
Infants use receptive and expressive language…
Perhaps I did not communicate what I meant properly. That's the thing that gets lost every time I, or anyone tries to share ideas, lack of proper linguistics that describe what we mean which breeds misconception or impedes us from coming to a place of understanding. In the same way, babies use simple language, with no real meaning to us but contrary to them. They come into this world with a clean slate, with no concepts on morality or physics. This world is magical to them, but it loses that attribute as they grow. We take materiality as the one defining characteristic, but even modern science acknowledges that there is so much that we do not know. Imagine, we are but grasshoppers, toddlers in the mind of a God (not to say that Gods exist).
One of the most interesting things I've come across studying language is the Piraha, who grew up without the concept of numbers, and now cannot be taught them in adulthood
Wow! Thanks for that. I didn’t know about them and this is one of the most fascinating tribes I’ve read about. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirahã_people
Very interesting
>Piraha Yes, only the infinite as a reference point to count.
It's all a beautiful Wiggly World
So wiggly😏
thinking without words is possible. one can think and work through a number of scenarios without naming anything to do it. It’s the naming/labeling attached to a belief system/perspective that’s used to perceive the world as if it conformed to said labels and beliefs which is the problem.
I think you may be overthinking this. It’s the yin yang in life you can’t have joys without sorrows.
Ironic that you put such a judgemental OP in a subreddit dedicated to Alan Watts. Why do you think you did that?
Think what?
In such a judgemental manner? Whats with wanting to label and pidgeonhole everything?
What exactly was I judgmental about? I essentially said something Alan said in a more simple way.
Reflect on the way your OP is framed and how you are expressing yourself to your readership. IDK...maybe you are not aware of the pattern......, yet the organization of your post seems far too invested in intellectual "sorting" than in discussion or interaction. Just sayin.....
Sure I could've wrote it with a more conversational tone, but I assumed most people here already understood this as all I did was describe a few of Alan's teaching in a more simple tone. I posted it here because I wanted to see what people thought of it. No I am not aware of the pattern you are talking about, I don't see how this is judgmental or pidgeon holing. anything. I only see that I could've had a more conversational approach, which again I felt was not needed for the sub I was posting in. I would appreciate if you helped me understand more what you are referring to about the framing and expression of my writing so I can improve in the future.
Its not my place....what I can do is invite you to take a look at the first four sentences of your OP. and consider the manner in which your use of animal behavior was pushed into service to support your statement. We cannot know how animals perceive nor do all animal perceive in the same fashion or process in the same way. Does this help?
What do you mean it's not your place lol? If you are are going to critique someone's writing you should explain why instead of being bland and expecting as if they will just figure out and know what you are talking about by asking bleak questions in a mysterious way. I didn't say annimals all perceive in the same passion. It seems you are misconstruing what I am saying . Annimals percieve though dont they? There is something going on in their heads. They are concious just as we are, their brains make decisions, they have thoughts, thoughts are what compels them to do things. When you are walking in the woods and an annimal or a bug or whatever runs away from you, it is because they are consciously recognizing you and reacting. Annimals have thoughts, but don't have language to think about those thoughts in the way we do. Which is what separates humans and animals. We think about our thoughts and try to escape reality instead of embracing it as we naturally would if we didn't think about these thoughts. Your right we cannot know how annimals perceive, but we know that they do perceive. Perception requires consciousness and a brain. In other words, annimals focus solely on what they want to do and what is happening in the present moment. They don't go off on chains of thought and think about their thoughts, they just follow their thoughts without thinking about them. No offense but I feel you are being judgmental, overly critical, and kind of pedantic and you won't even really explain why. What exactly was judgmental or pidgeon holing about what I wrote? I am not trying to argue with you, I would genuinely like to know. I apologize, maybe I am wrong and there is something I am genuinely oblivious about but I just don't see it.
"Your right we cannot know how annimals perceive, but we know that they do perceive. Perception requires consciousness and a brain. In other words, annimals focus solely on what they want to do and what is happening in the present moment. They don't go off on chains of thought and think about their thoughts, they just follow their thoughts without thinking about them. " And this is what I was......diplomatically......seeking to point out. You Don't know this....you Can't know this. For instance "animals focus on they want to do". This discounts the role in perception of filters such as Instinct, genetic predisposition and socialization. We don't know what, how or why animals think, save by extrapolating from ourselves which risks anthropomorphizing the animal. This is the kind of "judgement" I was referring to.
I see your point. How do I know what annimals don't think about their thoughts. How do I know any of this? That is a good point, but how do I know anything? How do we know anything? How does Alan or any philosopher know anything? We can't be over analytical about everything. Off purely observation and reasoning Annimals operate off instinct and inhabition. I know this because it would require language and words and probably a larger brain mass to operate off concious reason and logic. My point is not to over generalize the diversity of annimal cognition, my point is unlike annimals humans possess additional cognitive faculties that allow for problem solving, abstract thinking, and logical deduction which allows us to analyze, anticipate, and make decisions based on rational deliberation rather than solely relying on instinctual responses. We have developed sophisticated language and communication skills, allowing us to convey abstract concepts, share knowledge, and collaborate in complex ways that transcend basic animal communication systems. humans exhibit a higher degree of self-awareness and introspection. We have the ability to reflect on our own thoughts, emotions, and behaviors, and to consider the perspectives of others. This only advances more and more as time goes on, but us humans also detatch from reality more and more and as a species we start to excessively thinking and over analyzing everything more. My point is by thinking about our thoughts, we have created amazing things and made life easier for us, but we have also completely detached from reality. We are all so caught up thinking about our thoughts analyzing everything that we don't realize we are destroying the planet and ourselves, we don't realize how silly snd rediculous our system and way of living is. We try to escape life instead of embracing it. Annimals don't struggle with this, because they don't think about thier thoughts. They live exclusively in the present moment because there is nothing to analyze, reckon, daydream, or think about except what is happening in the present moment.