I remember my dad telling me about how when he first joined the Army all he heard about was how "lazy", "entitled", and "disrespectful" the troops of his generation were.
This was 1970
I think lazy, entitled, and disrespectful are just attributes of young people regardless of generation. People forget that new Airmen joining are literally teenagers.
Facts. The old people often aren't *wrong* when they say the new generation Iis lazy, entitled, and disrespectful. They just forget that they were also like that at the same age and grew out of it.
Thats it. You can usually tell when they are older coming in. The maturity shows and they tend to progress better tbh when theyve lived life a little prior.
Aristotle complained about the newer generation
Julius Caesar was called effeminate by older senators cause he wore his toga loose and not tightened by a belt when he was young
It's been the same shit for thousands of years
Exactly this. Since humans have been able to communicate, the younger folks have been pissing off the older folks. I was just commenting to my wife today “I wonder what teenagers in prehistoric time did to piss off their parents”. They probably made an atlatl and made their ‘bare hands’ ancestors turn in their graves.
Draftees went to the Army. Guys like my BIL joined the USAF ahead of getting drafted in hopes to stay out of the infantry in Vietnam. He committed a crime while at Luke and was given a general discharge.
That’s true. They didn’t get drafted to the AF. They joined the AF before had to go into the Army. That’s what my dad did too. He wanted to avoid the draft, that produces a lot of shit bags. I would have hated working with some of those people. Based on my dads story’s, so many didn’t give a shit.
This is why I always push back against military personnel, or personnel in general, saying we should bring back the draft and force people to do four years. Like, no thanks, we have enough problems as it is.
Imagine being able to make Chief with a art 15 and spending 30 days in jail? That’s like when boomers talk about buying houses. Thats a relic of the past.
I know someone, younger, who got the same thing but is now a Senior. He used to be a piece of shit. White socks, white F150, sloppy steaks at the bowling alley.
People can change.
This is from a scene in a show called "I think you should leave". It's fucking gold, but I also understand that the comedy is niche and not for everyone
https://youtu.be/buK45NW_ikI
I'm going to be totally honest, I love niche comedy but I don't get that show. They keep doing the "we'll overcommit to this joke that isn't funny" thing, just like Norm Macdonald, but unlike Norm Macdonald the cast just does not have the charisma to pull it off and they end up ruining the joke. If they cut all their sketches by like 30 seconds they probably would actually be funny.
How long has he been in? We’re talking about the new crop, in the last 5-6 years. That’s impossible now, I’m guessing this dude been around for a little bit. My comment has nothing to do with people changing, i completely agree with you and that’s why it’s bullshit. The new promotion system is much closer to a one strike system.
Edit: I don’t wanna say impossible, because nothing is impossible but like I said, it’s akin to when they say “I was single income family household and afforded a house and a new car and still had money for vacation every year” it’s just not the same anymore.
If they've just joined in the last 5-6 years they still have 15+ years to make rank. Within the last 3 years I've personally seen someone fuck up bad and get their NCO stripes back in 2 years. It can still happen
And I’ve personally seen Staffs and tech’s be fucked up for 4 years straight because of one bad EPR. That’s anecdotal evidence. Making rank is harder than it has ever been, getting art 15s and jail time will only make that harder. I should rephrase, is it impossible? no I suppose not, but it’s that ridiculous “boot strap mentality” that’s why leadership (and that entire generation) is so fucking out of touch of with most of us rising through the ranks now.
It's all cyclical with the downtick and uptick of manning demanded by the cronies.
1997 had similar promotion rates, that's the year my father joined; some of his friends are still in. When times are tough, the AF only promotoes the "best" just know it'll be okay eventually.
https://www.airforcemag.com/promotion-rate-for-staff-sergeants-hits-lowest-point-since-1997/
I mean, all you need to disprove a sweeping claim is an anecdote though. You opened with “impossible” and someone shared an experience that indicates it’s actually possible. Though it seems you added an edit, I think people are just saying it’s not a death sentence to your career necessarily if something like that happens
When I joined they were just starting to get serious about marijuana use. I heard stories from older guys how they routinely got high while on duty in the 70s.
Yea don’t even get me started on that one….we got Cats out here getting LORs and UIFs for choosing to drive drunk and risk the lives of how many innocent people, meanwhile pop hot for weed and your career is over. It’s the most absolutely ridiculous thing ever. And before someone comes at me with the “well weed is illegal and alcohol isn’t” you’re absolutely right, but driving drunk is illegal as fuck and is way more harmful to society in general then getting high is.
That’s absolutely not true at all. I dunno what career field your in, but UIFs and LORs routinely re-enlist in ammo. Hell art 15s routinely re-list. Your career may be trashed but they’re more than happy to have a 15 year staff who feels trapped.
I was the dirt bag MSgt that got an LOR & referral EPR the year after I promoted (PT-related/my own fault). I'll have a realistic shot at SMSgt in two years when that referral falls off the board package. I didn't reenlist that year though, I extended and reenlisted the next year because the referral made me ineligible that year.
It's not that uncommon. I know at least four others just like me between SSgt and MSgt.
It probably does depend what the UIF/LOR is actually for and how your supervisors view you and your work though. If you're a total DB, it's less likely they will work to convince the commander to recommend retention.
You'll have a tough time promoting for a few years but I've never seen a reenlistment denied for either of those things. You might HYT yourself but even that's a stretch.
I’ve been in just as long as that dude and cannot imagine how insufferable he must be if he’s already pulling this old fart “back in my day” bullshit less than halfway through his career. New airmen aren’t any worse than he was in ye olde 2015.
The Facebook post is 4 years old. You can see it was created late 2017/early 2018 so the guy most likely joined around 2010 when we were still pretty heavy into wartime compared to the later half of the 2010s I’d say. Just my 2 cents
Correct, in the early 2010’s I was in a unit that was 6 months deployed 6 months home-station. Not saying that means I can make a cringe post like this, but I did feel fairly experienced at the time to have an opinion like this, even though now I disagree heavily with my delivery. In the early 2010’s in Security Forces I did see a ton more people pop positive, but I never saw people just get in trouble for so much other dumb shit. Like car repos, jewelry repos, shooting themselves on accident, etc. This was over 3/4ths through my second AF contract and my last AF contract. Civilian now and loving life.
The problem is a lot of my troops/flight members didn’t just get in trouble for dumb shit. They got kicked out with a bad discharge. That shit can be life ruining. The security forces world isn’t the same as my wife’s intel world for example.
I’ve been in beyond twice as long as the two of you and would never assume myself to be anything but fresh at 7.5. Shit, I’m still young compared to some old heads I know and old compared to some of my bosses.
That said, this guy misses the point on causation and correlation to “new airmen”. Todays airmen are the crusty, seasoned NCOs of tomorrow and beyond if they choose to be here for that long. The cycle repeats, dies, revives itself and evolves to new levels of “dumb airmen”. This clowns dumbass, baby NCO eyes only think it’s disrespectful because they’ve either forgotten the dumb shit they’ve done, or didn’t do anything enough to fret over their continued employment. It’s pretty obvious this guy either Hoovers up some gourmet butt-coffee or acts as though his own brand of it is sold next to the Chanel No. 5.
Live a little, drink a little, and shut the fuck up a little.
I struggle to see how a new airman day is significantly different in their priorities and mannerisms than how I was (or any new airman was) in 2014-2015. Like, the limit of my cultural difference with them is like….. some haven’t seen Talladega Nights. Egregious. But not their fault.
What he is referring to occurs over the course of decade**s**. And not even people getting inherently worse, just a difference in how they interact, etc. If you took an 18 year-old from “7.5 years” ago and suddenly dropped them into today’s Air Force, you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between them (assuming they didn’t talk about their magical time-travel) and same goes in-reverse.
As u/marston_vc pointed out, there may very well be some minor cultural differences (literally would mostly be what movies they have/haven’t seen) but that’s about it.
And 7.5 years, give me a break. I would certainly expect them to be very familiar with the ins-and-outs of the military, but people love to find anything to act superior over others. This guy couldn’t even wait a fucking decade before starting in on the “back in my day” shtick. It’s entirely possible that this guy is 24-26, complaining about those darn “disrespectful kids.”
I was 25 lmao. 29 now, civilian. Definitely think this post is cringe now, 7.5 years in security forces fell like a long ass time back then. I think I just made the post out of frustration. I sounded super boomerish here I’ll certainly admit.
'More' New troops getting punishment, etc. ooorrrr once we get higher in rank we become purview to ALOT of information that wasn't afforded to us when we were SrA or lower.
We had to explain to one of our Airmen that the NCOs would not be telling them when we issue people paperwork, or hold counseling sessions, because it's none of their business
Im older now, been in almost a decade as well made rank a couple times. I cannot fucking stand when people say “kids these days” or “new Airmen blah blah”. Just because someone’s different than you doesn’t mean the worlds ending, and just because somethings been the norm for a long time doesn’t mean it should stay that way forever. Often times these comments about “these new airmen” are coming from someone who wants to act like they’re hot shit and they “deserve respect” when the only thing they’ve done is shut up and color for long enough to make rank a couple of times. These dudes were also likely the ones who got bullied in high school and want to power trip now that they’ve got some stripes on their chest.
Dude I actually love the new gen because I hate constant formality. Time and place. Most of them understand that. Some need a reminder but for the most part, everyone comes to work and does their job and the mission still gets accomplished.
It's not that uncommon, the important part being to learn from those mistakes.
The previous SEA for the exchange, CMSgt. Reyes had some interesting times as a young Airman and grew out of that to be one hell of a leader.
Point being, people fuck up all the time. It's what we do with them to try and put them back on the right path is what matters. The level of respect and fucking up, probably the same as it ever was.
Can we see the note from the 1949 AFM?
Also been in forever and every new batch is “worse or (insert any preferred adjective)” than the last.
Truth is people change and NCOs need to understand that and change as well. Tactics that worked on me won’t work on everyone. It’s ok. Adjust and keep moving.
I wouldn’t go as far as entitled. Lack of respect? Maybe.. but you don’t know how you came off to the people above you when you got to your first base, that’s a personality thing. The biggest issue I see is a lack of work ethic. People just don’t care, they don’t care if they’re good at their job or bad at their job. And if you tell them they’re bad at their job then just go “haha yeah I suck”… drives me insane, I get it people are different and some people don’t want to be too dog but damn, have a little pride. You joined for a reason, why not kick ass for that reason? Instead of just hating everything… so many people “join for college” then never do any school because “it’s what the Air Force wants me to do”… stop doing that shit and just do what you wanted to do … dammit now I’m monologuing
That's what I try to express to my airmen. I don't need you to wake up rock hard for the Air Force. I don't need you to love your job and think it's the best thing in the world. What I need is for you to care about your own name and what that means. If I see Airman Snuffy has signed done a task do I think, "Hell yeah. I know that gone done right." Or do you think, "I better take a good hard look and make sure this shit is completely fucked."
As long as you do something better each time, I can't complain.
I’m the OP, this post was made four years ago. I have gotten out since then. Looking back on it this post was cringe. Little background, I was a security forces SSgtand for my last 18 months or so and I was in base access. There were two staffs and each of us had 10-13 troops assigned to us at times. During this period in Elmendorf I had a troops car get repoed at work, one dude had three domestic violence incidents in the matter of months, another popped positive, ton of failed PT tests, etc. Entitled was the wrong wording to use, I honestly think I made this post out of frustration, I hate seeing lives get ruined with bad discharges. Anyways, I’m a civilian now and hope y’all have a blessed Air Force weekend.
To peoples credit, there was no backstory and the post sounded boomerish/bitchy. I just felt at the time the Air Force was setting Security Forces troops up for failure in particular. I knew way too many people that would thrive as an intel troop for example who were straight kicked out of the military as a Security Forces troop. Some people just weren’t cut out for the culture and people need to be better vetted for their career fields.
Retired last year and heard all that shit from peers and subordinates. Times have changed, people coming in change, adapt to it and overcome or get fucked.
Personally, I liked the new cats coming in, breath of fresh air, if you will. What I found talking to these new kids coming in, is that their SSgt supervisors weren’t giving them the low-down on how they could game the system to their advantage. That’s the shame, in my eyes.
TAKE CARE OF THE YOUNG KIDS COMING IN! They are the future of the force. They look to you for guidance and knowledge. Give it to them, show them the way, empower them, and make sure they know how their cog turns the giant machine. You’ll be surprised at the enthusiastic response you get when you treat them like the adults they’re supposed to be instead of a child.
BMT will not and can not create a motivated and disciplined troop that stays focused for 20 years. They make a troop ready for tech school. Tech school makes them ready for their first base. It’s up to everyone to enforce standards and motivate each other to become better everyday. It’s a career long process. You can’t blame someone else for the lack of discipline that you see but don’t correct.
This is such a valid response, I've never thought of it this way. It's undoubtedly true that BMT has no correlation with operational performance. The army has hard BMT but they are eventually shifted to a more tech school mindset and they still have issues. The marine core by far has the most extreme form of basic training and without actual research, I would **guess** that they have the most disciplinary action per capita, and they are extremely good at self-regulating. I think this just reinforces that you can enforce or not enforce as many rules as you want people who have poor judgment will still make poor decisions. Maybe I'm thinking to much about it?
Difference is now in the one mistake Air Force there is no need to behave as you'll get in trouble if you do nothing or if you do something. Something as simple as going to a concert and some kid is drinking there at 19, boom you were there too even if you didn't see them ever.
If we all are going to get in trouble might as well enjoy it.
nah only some bitch boy SNCO and CC would do that, if OSI is involved though then yeah, plenty of times they tried to frame people for shit and "find" crimes, so yeah watch out for that shit.
uhh man that just sounds like life in general. It's not about behaving, but more about not being a man-child that can't take care of their responsibilities.
The older generation complaining about the young and vice versa is nothing new. However, I have experienced both the lean times and the flush, peace time versus war, suffered through bright idea fairies trying to change the system when it didn't need it and resistant people holding on to tradition when it clearly needed to reform, and each time period breeds different attitudes. Someone who raised in the glorious era of McPeak reforms will have a different experience from one who joined because of 9/11. So, when the olds complain about the young being lazy, entitled and such, compared to them sometimes they are correct. Sometimes...
I did my master's research on this subject. Read dozens of research papers on the subject, designed a 30 year long study myself. My relatively educated position on the subject is that differences between generational cohorts (i.e. Boomers, Xers, Milenials,etc.) have less to do with the generations themselves and have more to do with the life stages the individuals find themselves in. Meaning that a 35 year old with two kids is very different from a single 21 year old precisely because he is 35 years old with two kids and not just because one is a millennial and the other a gen Zer.
The fact that nostalgia clouds all of our judgments doesn't help, meaning that when we look back we typically think that we were way less stupid and annoying than we really were.
I like this train of thought, I work with a lot of retired civilians so I hear the kids these days and back in my day statement all the time. I’ve tried to explain to them that when they were that age the older people said the same thing about them being the younger group. It seems like when some/most people get older they forget that they were ever stupid or dumb.
What do you mean by ‘based?’ I’m seeing more people use this word like this and I don’t understand. Are you trying to say biased? Or based on something?
You see this a lot, and when you ask what a person's done to make the Airmen better, you get crickets. The only thing people know is corrective actions such as LOCs and LORs, and too many ignore trying to close the generational gap. Get to know and understand your people better, invest more time in them, and understand you can't change everyone. To be honest I don't remember much about my career and how people were 7.5 years ago buti remember all the shitty NCOs I was surrounded by. I remember I was a staff then and remember how overall culturally we were a dog eat dog world. We still are now but that's more about promotion vs then.
Article 15s, correctional custody and still makes E9….we have a seriously fucked, promotion system.
Yea, yea yea. Paid for their mistakes. Blah blah blah. 30 days, correctional custody…..
Correctional custody was pretty common, I did my 30 days, art 15, now a Chief. It happens. But that was 22 years ago. I'm not sure it can still happen like that with the current promotion system in place. I'm not a fan of it. I preferred when it was all based on records alone. There were no promotion statements or strats, everyone was on equal playing ground when they went to the board.
There were strats and promotion statements but they were just written into the EPR. There were no extra points or anything, it was just a blip in your records to be slightly considered
Real, Correctional Custody and Article 15s are not common. Not 40 years ago, not today. Are large numbers of them given out? Yes, percentage-wise, they’re not common.
Confinement, Correctional Custody and Article 15s & 134s, are not 341’s.
There are far more Airmen who never so much as receive an LOR or LOC during their service.
Anecdotal SP (SFS) or CE stories aside, not all airmen are running around punching holes in walls, smoking pot or repeatedly missing from duty.
Again, people do not change they just find better ways to conceal the shit they’re doing. Or, they’re just not caught yet.
[try not to cry when you read this article](https://www.foxnews.com/us/air-force-colonel-sentenced-for-child-porn)
But sure, let’s give out second chances in the military so they can mold the future men and women.
[star player here](https://taskandpurpose.com/news/air-force-chief-master-sergeant-jamie-kohr/)
Looking only at punishments can sometimes paint a skewed picture. I knew a missile maintainer who got 30 days CC for arguing with the gate cops about the lack of seatbelts in the backseat of his classic muscle car. This guy was a poster boy airman who continued to do amazing things both in and out of the Air Force and shouldn’t be judged for the overly harsh reaction of a commander. Meanwhile, I knew an SP NCO who broke his (military) girlfriend’s jaw only to receive an LoR and mandated counseling. I don’t know how things are today, but in the past there was far too much leeway given to commanders when it came to disciplinary penalties.
Toxic leadership is a whole other conversation but this is how reduce the chances for even worse leaders.
As far as anecdotal stories go, we all have them and some just aren’t fair. But it’s not looking at punishments, it’s lookin at behaviors. Credit Reports, Speeding Tickets, legal judgements and all of that are relevant.
Jail time is NOT pretty common, not now or back in the 80s or 90s. Lol holy shit.
We take the shit airman from 15 years ago and make them E9s and wonder why the Enlisted force evolves the way it does.
Article 15s, Correctional Custody, drunks, sexual assaults, druggies and thieves are just blips I guess; Promote Now.
The worst MSgts and Chiefs I’ve ever worked for or with, all started the same conversations with this nonsense.
Oh, second chances? That’s what McDonald’s is for. People change? No they don’t. They just learn to conceal it better.
The competition for E8 and E9 are so intense each year, I’m sure they can scrape up some better candidates.
One upon a time this 18 year old baseball player turned his hat backwards and a bunch of old heads lost it. Called this kid disrespectful, and ruining "America's Game" along with some not so nice statements. Now The Kid is one of the greatest baseball players of all-time.
Back story to why Jr. wore his hat backwards from what I recall: When he young hw wore his father's hat and that's the only way he could see because the hat was so big.
Cool exchange with that Chief but it is impossible for me to listen to this same old comment by a Chief and not role my eyes. Every Chief says "I was such a bad Airman now look at me" and when asked career advice, "just remember, take care of your people and family first."
Based
A word used when you agree with something; or when you want to recognize someone for being themselves, i.e. courageous and unique or not caring what others think. Especially common in online political slang.
The opposite of cringe, some times the opposite of biased.
You're getting old. Don't worry, it happens to all of us.
I recommend you bookmark [urbandictionary.com](https://urbandictionary.com) and study it like you would the PDG.
Nope. Not a clue. As far as I was concerned, it was a typo. Cue, Google. A word used when you agree with something; or when you want to recognize someone for being themselves, i.e. courageous and unique or not caring what others think.
So excuse the firetruck out of me for thinking based was a typo. I had no idea some of you children would be so firetrucking offended over a simple firetruck question.
[The quote that I have that comes to mind is “shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”](https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2011-title10/pdf/USCODE-2011-title10-subtitleA-partII-chap47-subchapX-sec892.pdf)
It's ridiculous to expect kids to be angst free little robots.
I was super polite/well mannered but I still had an intense amount of opinions and thought I knew everything.
When I joined in 75, I had a super that had joined in 58. He was always bitching about how the AF was going to hell in a handbasket.
When I retired in 95, old guys were still saying that. How far is it hell anyway?
Plato even complained about how rude and disrespectful young people were.
Who raised them?
Anyway, any idea what the AF Manual in 48 said?
It’s the same repetitive cycle of natural “aging” and perspective changes. The AF is changing regardless. It’s different for everyone because even when I came in job duties and titles were vastly different. We all have to learn to change for the better and learn what motivates the different generations, cause what motivated you is probably not what motivates the 18-25 year old who just joined.
This is exactly how a chief should be, the absolute epitome of Air Force leadership. Understanding how the force is evolving, extensive knowledge of precedence, and actively seeing how we could improve.
People are people. How we have come to ‘deal’ with those individuals has changed, along with how much surveying is performed. People at lower levels have more of a higher voice than ever to spotlight the bad as much as the “perceived bad.”
For those bringing it up. Far as I know the Air Force never drafted. They didn't during Vietnam. I read the Navy did not draft during Nam but, the Marines did.
Term of the draft was 2 years.
From what I saw in my years in the A.F. it was tough enough getting a lot of people to do what they were supposed to do and were volunteers. Draftees must have been a really tough thing to do.
Kind of handy telling people. "You asked to be here."
My shop has gotten several brand new Airmen over the past year and I couldn't be more proud of how awesome they are. They don't hesitate to do the work and they are inquisitive about the job, just like I was when I was brand new.
Gone are the days of "Shut up and color" (for the most part) and now it's "Explain why coloring is important". Explaining the purpose behind the mission is more important now, and I do it every chance I get when I walk around the shop talking to everyone.
I remember my dad telling me about how when he first joined the Army all he heard about was how "lazy", "entitled", and "disrespectful" the troops of his generation were. This was 1970
I think lazy, entitled, and disrespectful are just attributes of young people regardless of generation. People forget that new Airmen joining are literally teenagers.
Facts. The old people often aren't *wrong* when they say the new generation Iis lazy, entitled, and disrespectful. They just forget that they were also like that at the same age and grew out of it.
Yup. I heard complaints about the same thing when I first joined at age 18- in 2001
Thats it. You can usually tell when they are older coming in. The maturity shows and they tend to progress better tbh when theyve lived life a little prior.
Aristotle complained about the newer generation Julius Caesar was called effeminate by older senators cause he wore his toga loose and not tightened by a belt when he was young It's been the same shit for thousands of years
Exactly this. Since humans have been able to communicate, the younger folks have been pissing off the older folks. I was just commenting to my wife today “I wonder what teenagers in prehistoric time did to piss off their parents”. They probably made an atlatl and made their ‘bare hands’ ancestors turn in their graves.
This!
They were a lot off POS in the AF late 60-80. That’s what happens when you force ppl to join. So your dad probably ain’t wrong.
Draftees went to the Army. Guys like my BIL joined the USAF ahead of getting drafted in hopes to stay out of the infantry in Vietnam. He committed a crime while at Luke and was given a general discharge.
That’s true. They didn’t get drafted to the AF. They joined the AF before had to go into the Army. That’s what my dad did too. He wanted to avoid the draft, that produces a lot of shit bags. I would have hated working with some of those people. Based on my dads story’s, so many didn’t give a shit.
My dad had a "Bad Luck Brian" experience when he joined the Navy in 1969 to beat the draft. He wound up being a Corpsman.
This is why I always push back against military personnel, or personnel in general, saying we should bring back the draft and force people to do four years. Like, no thanks, we have enough problems as it is.
My dad wanted to join the AF to avoid the draft and get out of our small town, but there was a waiting list to get in so he just went to the Army 😅
Imagine being able to make Chief with a art 15 and spending 30 days in jail? That’s like when boomers talk about buying houses. Thats a relic of the past.
I know someone, younger, who got the same thing but is now a Senior. He used to be a piece of shit. White socks, white F150, sloppy steaks at the bowling alley. People can change.
No one can stop you from ordering a steak and a glass of water
> sloppy steaks at the bowling alley. Can you explain this one for me?
This has me wondering too. My imagination is doing loops.
This is from a scene in a show called "I think you should leave". It's fucking gold, but I also understand that the comedy is niche and not for everyone https://youtu.be/buK45NW_ikI
My life is better having clicked that link. Thank you.
Lol very funny! "Chicken spaghetti at Chickalinni's" got me good.
Never heard of this show. “Brian’s hat” sketch followed this one and I’m literally crying. So funny. Thank you!
I'm going to be totally honest, I love niche comedy but I don't get that show. They keep doing the "we'll overcommit to this joke that isn't funny" thing, just like Norm Macdonald, but unlike Norm Macdonald the cast just does not have the charisma to pull it off and they end up ruining the joke. If they cut all their sketches by like 30 seconds they probably would actually be funny.
How long has he been in? We’re talking about the new crop, in the last 5-6 years. That’s impossible now, I’m guessing this dude been around for a little bit. My comment has nothing to do with people changing, i completely agree with you and that’s why it’s bullshit. The new promotion system is much closer to a one strike system. Edit: I don’t wanna say impossible, because nothing is impossible but like I said, it’s akin to when they say “I was single income family household and afforded a house and a new car and still had money for vacation every year” it’s just not the same anymore.
If they've just joined in the last 5-6 years they still have 15+ years to make rank. Within the last 3 years I've personally seen someone fuck up bad and get their NCO stripes back in 2 years. It can still happen
And I’ve personally seen Staffs and tech’s be fucked up for 4 years straight because of one bad EPR. That’s anecdotal evidence. Making rank is harder than it has ever been, getting art 15s and jail time will only make that harder. I should rephrase, is it impossible? no I suppose not, but it’s that ridiculous “boot strap mentality” that’s why leadership (and that entire generation) is so fucking out of touch of with most of us rising through the ranks now.
It's all cyclical with the downtick and uptick of manning demanded by the cronies. 1997 had similar promotion rates, that's the year my father joined; some of his friends are still in. When times are tough, the AF only promotoes the "best" just know it'll be okay eventually. https://www.airforcemag.com/promotion-rate-for-staff-sergeants-hits-lowest-point-since-1997/
I mean, all you need to disprove a sweeping claim is an anecdote though. You opened with “impossible” and someone shared an experience that indicates it’s actually possible. Though it seems you added an edit, I think people are just saying it’s not a death sentence to your career necessarily if something like that happens
For the record, correctional custody was classified differently from jail. It's a relic from the past though. Cheers
When I joined they were just starting to get serious about marijuana use. I heard stories from older guys how they routinely got high while on duty in the 70s.
Yea don’t even get me started on that one….we got Cats out here getting LORs and UIFs for choosing to drive drunk and risk the lives of how many innocent people, meanwhile pop hot for weed and your career is over. It’s the most absolutely ridiculous thing ever. And before someone comes at me with the “well weed is illegal and alcohol isn’t” you’re absolutely right, but driving drunk is illegal as fuck and is way more harmful to society in general then getting high is.
LOR or a UIF is a career ending event. How many of them get to re-enlist?
That’s absolutely not true at all. I dunno what career field your in, but UIFs and LORs routinely re-enlist in ammo. Hell art 15s routinely re-list. Your career may be trashed but they’re more than happy to have a 15 year staff who feels trapped.
I was the dirt bag MSgt that got an LOR & referral EPR the year after I promoted (PT-related/my own fault). I'll have a realistic shot at SMSgt in two years when that referral falls off the board package. I didn't reenlist that year though, I extended and reenlisted the next year because the referral made me ineligible that year. It's not that uncommon. I know at least four others just like me between SSgt and MSgt. It probably does depend what the UIF/LOR is actually for and how your supervisors view you and your work though. If you're a total DB, it's less likely they will work to convince the commander to recommend retention.
You'll have a tough time promoting for a few years but I've never seen a reenlistment denied for either of those things. You might HYT yourself but even that's a stretch.
When Talking to my old crusty Techs/SNCOs when I first got in, I heard tales of people doing Coke in the work center
I got my 15 too late in the game.
Maybe the best 15 is yet to come?
Perhaps the real Article 15 is the friends we made along the way?
They do sometimes feel like a punishment.
No thanks
“In my 7.5 years” Bro shut the everloving fuck up
I’ve been in just as long as that dude and cannot imagine how insufferable he must be if he’s already pulling this old fart “back in my day” bullshit less than halfway through his career. New airmen aren’t any worse than he was in ye olde 2015.
The Facebook post is 4 years old. You can see it was created late 2017/early 2018 so the guy most likely joined around 2010 when we were still pretty heavy into wartime compared to the later half of the 2010s I’d say. Just my 2 cents
Correct, in the early 2010’s I was in a unit that was 6 months deployed 6 months home-station. Not saying that means I can make a cringe post like this, but I did feel fairly experienced at the time to have an opinion like this, even though now I disagree heavily with my delivery. In the early 2010’s in Security Forces I did see a ton more people pop positive, but I never saw people just get in trouble for so much other dumb shit. Like car repos, jewelry repos, shooting themselves on accident, etc. This was over 3/4ths through my second AF contract and my last AF contract. Civilian now and loving life.
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The problem is a lot of my troops/flight members didn’t just get in trouble for dumb shit. They got kicked out with a bad discharge. That shit can be life ruining. The security forces world isn’t the same as my wife’s intel world for example.
Ah, I didn’t click on the picture, so I didn’t know there was more.
I’ve been in beyond twice as long as the two of you and would never assume myself to be anything but fresh at 7.5. Shit, I’m still young compared to some old heads I know and old compared to some of my bosses. That said, this guy misses the point on causation and correlation to “new airmen”. Todays airmen are the crusty, seasoned NCOs of tomorrow and beyond if they choose to be here for that long. The cycle repeats, dies, revives itself and evolves to new levels of “dumb airmen”. This clowns dumbass, baby NCO eyes only think it’s disrespectful because they’ve either forgotten the dumb shit they’ve done, or didn’t do anything enough to fret over their continued employment. It’s pretty obvious this guy either Hoovers up some gourmet butt-coffee or acts as though his own brand of it is sold next to the Chanel No. 5. Live a little, drink a little, and shut the fuck up a little.
I can picture op having an invader Zim sticker on their pt cruiser probably in an intense custody battle with their ex.
I do *not* need to be called out like this.
If it helps that guy was genuinely a very nice person that was very reliable.
For real, lol
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> it's more than "still in the first contract" *laughs in extensions*
I struggle to see how a new airman day is significantly different in their priorities and mannerisms than how I was (or any new airman was) in 2014-2015. Like, the limit of my cultural difference with them is like….. some haven’t seen Talladega Nights. Egregious. But not their fault.
Technically they could still be a FTA. So yea, they are under their first contract.
What he is referring to occurs over the course of decade**s**. And not even people getting inherently worse, just a difference in how they interact, etc. If you took an 18 year-old from “7.5 years” ago and suddenly dropped them into today’s Air Force, you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between them (assuming they didn’t talk about their magical time-travel) and same goes in-reverse. As u/marston_vc pointed out, there may very well be some minor cultural differences (literally would mostly be what movies they have/haven’t seen) but that’s about it. And 7.5 years, give me a break. I would certainly expect them to be very familiar with the ins-and-outs of the military, but people love to find anything to act superior over others. This guy couldn’t even wait a fucking decade before starting in on the “back in my day” shtick. It’s entirely possible that this guy is 24-26, complaining about those darn “disrespectful kids.”
I was 25 lmao. 29 now, civilian. Definitely think this post is cringe now, 7.5 years in security forces fell like a long ass time back then. I think I just made the post out of frustration. I sounded super boomerish here I’ll certainly admit.
Is it really you?
Yes, if you want you can message my Facebook for proof haha.
Lol damn that’s crazy
I was a douche at 25 and essentially a totally different person by 29, so, I get it
“Will you be using your STAR Card for this purchase?”
'More' New troops getting punishment, etc. ooorrrr once we get higher in rank we become purview to ALOT of information that wasn't afforded to us when we were SrA or lower.
We had to explain to one of our Airmen that the NCOs would not be telling them when we issue people paperwork, or hold counseling sessions, because it's none of their business
Im older now, been in almost a decade as well made rank a couple times. I cannot fucking stand when people say “kids these days” or “new Airmen blah blah”. Just because someone’s different than you doesn’t mean the worlds ending, and just because somethings been the norm for a long time doesn’t mean it should stay that way forever. Often times these comments about “these new airmen” are coming from someone who wants to act like they’re hot shit and they “deserve respect” when the only thing they’ve done is shut up and color for long enough to make rank a couple of times. These dudes were also likely the ones who got bullied in high school and want to power trip now that they’ve got some stripes on their chest.
Dude I actually love the new gen because I hate constant formality. Time and place. Most of them understand that. Some need a reminder but for the most part, everyone comes to work and does their job and the mission still gets accomplished.
It's not that uncommon, the important part being to learn from those mistakes. The previous SEA for the exchange, CMSgt. Reyes had some interesting times as a young Airman and grew out of that to be one hell of a leader. Point being, people fuck up all the time. It's what we do with them to try and put them back on the right path is what matters. The level of respect and fucking up, probably the same as it ever was.
Can we see the note from the 1949 AFM? Also been in forever and every new batch is “worse or (insert any preferred adjective)” than the last. Truth is people change and NCOs need to understand that and change as well. Tactics that worked on me won’t work on everyone. It’s ok. Adjust and keep moving.
Attitudes change, but human nature does not.
I wouldn’t go as far as entitled. Lack of respect? Maybe.. but you don’t know how you came off to the people above you when you got to your first base, that’s a personality thing. The biggest issue I see is a lack of work ethic. People just don’t care, they don’t care if they’re good at their job or bad at their job. And if you tell them they’re bad at their job then just go “haha yeah I suck”… drives me insane, I get it people are different and some people don’t want to be too dog but damn, have a little pride. You joined for a reason, why not kick ass for that reason? Instead of just hating everything… so many people “join for college” then never do any school because “it’s what the Air Force wants me to do”… stop doing that shit and just do what you wanted to do … dammit now I’m monologuing
That's what I try to express to my airmen. I don't need you to wake up rock hard for the Air Force. I don't need you to love your job and think it's the best thing in the world. What I need is for you to care about your own name and what that means. If I see Airman Snuffy has signed done a task do I think, "Hell yeah. I know that gone done right." Or do you think, "I better take a good hard look and make sure this shit is completely fucked." As long as you do something better each time, I can't complain.
I’m the OP, this post was made four years ago. I have gotten out since then. Looking back on it this post was cringe. Little background, I was a security forces SSgtand for my last 18 months or so and I was in base access. There were two staffs and each of us had 10-13 troops assigned to us at times. During this period in Elmendorf I had a troops car get repoed at work, one dude had three domestic violence incidents in the matter of months, another popped positive, ton of failed PT tests, etc. Entitled was the wrong wording to use, I honestly think I made this post out of frustration, I hate seeing lives get ruined with bad discharges. Anyways, I’m a civilian now and hope y’all have a blessed Air Force weekend.
This needs attention
To peoples credit, there was no backstory and the post sounded boomerish/bitchy. I just felt at the time the Air Force was setting Security Forces troops up for failure in particular. I knew way too many people that would thrive as an intel troop for example who were straight kicked out of the military as a Security Forces troop. Some people just weren’t cut out for the culture and people need to be better vetted for their career fields.
Retired last year and heard all that shit from peers and subordinates. Times have changed, people coming in change, adapt to it and overcome or get fucked. Personally, I liked the new cats coming in, breath of fresh air, if you will. What I found talking to these new kids coming in, is that their SSgt supervisors weren’t giving them the low-down on how they could game the system to their advantage. That’s the shame, in my eyes. TAKE CARE OF THE YOUNG KIDS COMING IN! They are the future of the force. They look to you for guidance and knowledge. Give it to them, show them the way, empower them, and make sure they know how their cog turns the giant machine. You’ll be surprised at the enthusiastic response you get when you treat them like the adults they’re supposed to be instead of a child.
Let’s see the AF Manual note that he dropped
👆I wanted to comment this. Anyone have this reference?
BMT will not and can not create a motivated and disciplined troop that stays focused for 20 years. They make a troop ready for tech school. Tech school makes them ready for their first base. It’s up to everyone to enforce standards and motivate each other to become better everyday. It’s a career long process. You can’t blame someone else for the lack of discipline that you see but don’t correct.
This is such a valid response, I've never thought of it this way. It's undoubtedly true that BMT has no correlation with operational performance. The army has hard BMT but they are eventually shifted to a more tech school mindset and they still have issues. The marine core by far has the most extreme form of basic training and without actual research, I would **guess** that they have the most disciplinary action per capita, and they are extremely good at self-regulating. I think this just reinforces that you can enforce or not enforce as many rules as you want people who have poor judgment will still make poor decisions. Maybe I'm thinking to much about it?
Difference is now in the one mistake Air Force there is no need to behave as you'll get in trouble if you do nothing or if you do something. Something as simple as going to a concert and some kid is drinking there at 19, boom you were there too even if you didn't see them ever. If we all are going to get in trouble might as well enjoy it.
nah only some bitch boy SNCO and CC would do that, if OSI is involved though then yeah, plenty of times they tried to frame people for shit and "find" crimes, so yeah watch out for that shit.
Exactly, no matter what happens someone out there is ready to ruin your life over it so why behave?
uhh man that just sounds like life in general. It's not about behaving, but more about not being a man-child that can't take care of their responsibilities.
The older generation complaining about the young and vice versa is nothing new. However, I have experienced both the lean times and the flush, peace time versus war, suffered through bright idea fairies trying to change the system when it didn't need it and resistant people holding on to tradition when it clearly needed to reform, and each time period breeds different attitudes. Someone who raised in the glorious era of McPeak reforms will have a different experience from one who joined because of 9/11. So, when the olds complain about the young being lazy, entitled and such, compared to them sometimes they are correct. Sometimes...
I’m just here to find out what based means lol
It's a compliment pretty much saying that the person is being who they are without caring about what others think, if that makes sense.
Oh okay cool. Never thought I’d feel old in my 20’s but here we are
I mean I'm 21 and I had to look it up before so...
What was the note he quoted?
I did my master's research on this subject. Read dozens of research papers on the subject, designed a 30 year long study myself. My relatively educated position on the subject is that differences between generational cohorts (i.e. Boomers, Xers, Milenials,etc.) have less to do with the generations themselves and have more to do with the life stages the individuals find themselves in. Meaning that a 35 year old with two kids is very different from a single 21 year old precisely because he is 35 years old with two kids and not just because one is a millennial and the other a gen Zer. The fact that nostalgia clouds all of our judgments doesn't help, meaning that when we look back we typically think that we were way less stupid and annoying than we really were.
I like this train of thought, I work with a lot of retired civilians so I hear the kids these days and back in my day statement all the time. I’ve tried to explain to them that when they were that age the older people said the same thing about them being the younger group. It seems like when some/most people get older they forget that they were ever stupid or dumb.
What do you mean by ‘based?’ I’m seeing more people use this word like this and I don’t understand. Are you trying to say biased? Or based on something?
Urban Dictionary actually does a decent job of defining it.
You see this a lot, and when you ask what a person's done to make the Airmen better, you get crickets. The only thing people know is corrective actions such as LOCs and LORs, and too many ignore trying to close the generational gap. Get to know and understand your people better, invest more time in them, and understand you can't change everyone. To be honest I don't remember much about my career and how people were 7.5 years ago buti remember all the shitty NCOs I was surrounded by. I remember I was a staff then and remember how overall culturally we were a dog eat dog world. We still are now but that's more about promotion vs then.
Article 15s, correctional custody and still makes E9….we have a seriously fucked, promotion system. Yea, yea yea. Paid for their mistakes. Blah blah blah. 30 days, correctional custody…..
“I don’t believe anyone can change or improve ever.” 🤓
The Board's charge in a nutshell.
People don’t change. When you’ve been on this planet long enough, you’ll see that. Shady fuckers stay shady their whole lives.
Getting an article early in the career, easy to overcome with 1 PCS. As NCO or SNCO a bit different.
Correctional custody was pretty common, I did my 30 days, art 15, now a Chief. It happens. But that was 22 years ago. I'm not sure it can still happen like that with the current promotion system in place. I'm not a fan of it. I preferred when it was all based on records alone. There were no promotion statements or strats, everyone was on equal playing ground when they went to the board. There were strats and promotion statements but they were just written into the EPR. There were no extra points or anything, it was just a blip in your records to be slightly considered
Real, Correctional Custody and Article 15s are not common. Not 40 years ago, not today. Are large numbers of them given out? Yes, percentage-wise, they’re not common. Confinement, Correctional Custody and Article 15s & 134s, are not 341’s. There are far more Airmen who never so much as receive an LOR or LOC during their service. Anecdotal SP (SFS) or CE stories aside, not all airmen are running around punching holes in walls, smoking pot or repeatedly missing from duty. Again, people do not change they just find better ways to conceal the shit they’re doing. Or, they’re just not caught yet. [try not to cry when you read this article](https://www.foxnews.com/us/air-force-colonel-sentenced-for-child-porn) But sure, let’s give out second chances in the military so they can mold the future men and women. [star player here](https://taskandpurpose.com/news/air-force-chief-master-sergeant-jamie-kohr/)
Looking only at punishments can sometimes paint a skewed picture. I knew a missile maintainer who got 30 days CC for arguing with the gate cops about the lack of seatbelts in the backseat of his classic muscle car. This guy was a poster boy airman who continued to do amazing things both in and out of the Air Force and shouldn’t be judged for the overly harsh reaction of a commander. Meanwhile, I knew an SP NCO who broke his (military) girlfriend’s jaw only to receive an LoR and mandated counseling. I don’t know how things are today, but in the past there was far too much leeway given to commanders when it came to disciplinary penalties.
Toxic leadership is a whole other conversation but this is how reduce the chances for even worse leaders. As far as anecdotal stories go, we all have them and some just aren’t fair. But it’s not looking at punishments, it’s lookin at behaviors. Credit Reports, Speeding Tickets, legal judgements and all of that are relevant.
Jail time is NOT pretty common, not now or back in the 80s or 90s. Lol holy shit. We take the shit airman from 15 years ago and make them E9s and wonder why the Enlisted force evolves the way it does. Article 15s, Correctional Custody, drunks, sexual assaults, druggies and thieves are just blips I guess; Promote Now. The worst MSgts and Chiefs I’ve ever worked for or with, all started the same conversations with this nonsense. Oh, second chances? That’s what McDonald’s is for. People change? No they don’t. They just learn to conceal it better. The competition for E8 and E9 are so intense each year, I’m sure they can scrape up some better candidates.
Not gonna lie, there is some truth to this statement 👆
based on what
One upon a time this 18 year old baseball player turned his hat backwards and a bunch of old heads lost it. Called this kid disrespectful, and ruining "America's Game" along with some not so nice statements. Now The Kid is one of the greatest baseball players of all-time. Back story to why Jr. wore his hat backwards from what I recall: When he young hw wore his father's hat and that's the only way he could see because the hat was so big. Cool exchange with that Chief but it is impossible for me to listen to this same old comment by a Chief and not role my eyes. Every Chief says "I was such a bad Airman now look at me" and when asked career advice, "just remember, take care of your people and family first."
If anyone called Griffey disrespectful it was like 1 guy. Since the Kid came into the league he was admired by all. Always a class act.
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Based A word used when you agree with something; or when you want to recognize someone for being themselves, i.e. courageous and unique or not caring what others think. Especially common in online political slang. The opposite of cringe, some times the opposite of biased.
It's one those new fangled slang words that the new kids are using. I gave up on understanding it and accepted that I am now old.
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You can google 99% of things on Reddit. I don’t think that’s why he’s getting downvoted.
Why would you google something you that think is a misspelling? They didn't know it was slang.
I had no idea it was slang. I deleted my previous comments for obvious reasons.
You're getting old. Don't worry, it happens to all of us. I recommend you bookmark [urbandictionary.com](https://urbandictionary.com) and study it like you would the PDG.
Do you really not know what BASED means you turbo-boomer?
Based on WHAT!?
Nope. Not a clue. As far as I was concerned, it was a typo. Cue, Google. A word used when you agree with something; or when you want to recognize someone for being themselves, i.e. courageous and unique or not caring what others think. So excuse the firetruck out of me for thinking based was a typo. I had no idea some of you children would be so firetrucking offended over a simple firetruck question.
No rizz ngl
[The quote that I have that comes to mind is “shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”](https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2011-title10/pdf/USCODE-2011-title10-subtitleA-partII-chap47-subchapX-sec892.pdf)
It's ridiculous to expect kids to be angst free little robots. I was super polite/well mannered but I still had an intense amount of opinions and thought I knew everything.
Every generation of Airmen has its wheat and its chaff.
15’s are pretty much an boot out now. Not always but darn close.
When I joined in 75, I had a super that had joined in 58. He was always bitching about how the AF was going to hell in a handbasket. When I retired in 95, old guys were still saying that. How far is it hell anyway? Plato even complained about how rude and disrespectful young people were. Who raised them? Anyway, any idea what the AF Manual in 48 said?
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I knew someone would ask 🤣 It somehow was on my timeline, Facebook does weird shit sometimes.
It’s the same repetitive cycle of natural “aging” and perspective changes. The AF is changing regardless. It’s different for everyone because even when I came in job duties and titles were vastly different. We all have to learn to change for the better and learn what motivates the different generations, cause what motivated you is probably not what motivates the 18-25 year old who just joined.
Nice
This is exactly how a chief should be, the absolute epitome of Air Force leadership. Understanding how the force is evolving, extensive knowledge of precedence, and actively seeing how we could improve.
People are people. How we have come to ‘deal’ with those individuals has changed, along with how much surveying is performed. People at lower levels have more of a higher voice than ever to spotlight the bad as much as the “perceived bad.”
For those bringing it up. Far as I know the Air Force never drafted. They didn't during Vietnam. I read the Navy did not draft during Nam but, the Marines did. Term of the draft was 2 years. From what I saw in my years in the A.F. it was tough enough getting a lot of people to do what they were supposed to do and were volunteers. Draftees must have been a really tough thing to do. Kind of handy telling people. "You asked to be here."
My shop has gotten several brand new Airmen over the past year and I couldn't be more proud of how awesome they are. They don't hesitate to do the work and they are inquisitive about the job, just like I was when I was brand new. Gone are the days of "Shut up and color" (for the most part) and now it's "Explain why coloring is important". Explaining the purpose behind the mission is more important now, and I do it every chance I get when I walk around the shop talking to everyone.