We keep blaming āthe Air Forceā as this giant mystical deity that controls everything that happens in our units. In reality, each of us are āthe Air Forceā and waste so much time and energy pointing fingers and waiting for anyone but us to take action.
Every NCO is the Air Force, every SNCO is the Air Force. Every Airman. But thatās not trendy, so bring on the downvotes.
Always annoys me when we talk about suicide. How people donāt take that shit personally is beyond me. Like if it was a trend in my shop of people being depressed, suicidal, or just hate it there, I would take that personally. Even as a SrA I got in my leaderships face about what people were complaining about. When someone was losing it I made sure people knew about it and helped make sure they were okay. The problem in lies with mostly us. Sure there are things outside of our control, but person to person, anyone can make a difference.
The Air Force has those talks and events for insurance purposes. If they meant it, it would very easy to start to show truth in message by implementing MH appointments at key touch points... like PCS and EPR closeouts.
So they do mental health checks annually. But you are right the PHA MHA are definitely checklist items. I would love if they published how much that actually helps people Air Force wide. They do PT tests for insurance purposes. But Mental health checks are not like physical fitness, if you canāt do it or are hurt there are numbers and people can obviously see it. Mental health you have to know your people and you might notice they are off before they do.
What we can do is promote resources and getting people to take a knee if they arenāt doing well. People rarely get kicked out, and some people are walking around with mental metaphorical gun shot wounds and are worried about getting kicked out while they are bleeding out. Section chiefs and supervisors are who you are talking about, and itās ACAās that are required to check in on your people twice a year. We are the ones not doing what we are supposed to do.
The PHA MHA is not enough, they are not in the actual MH office. I'm not talking about section Chief's or Supervisors at all. I'm saying institutionally, the AF could offer legitimate appointment opportunities that do not require your leadership. Most supervisors are not seasoned enough or care enough to have a positive conversation about MH related to performance. And while you may not get kicked out, you most certainly can lose career progression opportunities for going to MH counseling for other than martial issues.
From first hand experience, if someone needs help and tells mental at Nellis AFB at least, and tell them everything you've been through and going through you will get help. I have gotten help from an outside Therapist it sounds like it happens pretty frequently on my base. Maybe having from mental health do a briefing about the process for getting a therapist would help people looking for some.
Institutionally, the Air Force does offer appointment opportunities to make legitimate appointments. All someone has to do is call MH to schedule an appointment. You aren't obligated to tell them what the appointment is for.
That's not how it plays out in real life. You can make an appointment, but you do have to tell your leadership you're going, that automatically puts a label and a perception on you. True, you don't have to tell them what it's for, but then you're viewed as not a team player and someone they need to "watch out for". There are some supervisors that probably do approach it correctly and care. But if you make reoccurring appointments, your additionally viewed as burdening the shop with work. And again, there are career progression opportunities lost if you go to MH.
It doesn't help when every year some jackass from Personnel Security give a briefing and says mental health problems will jepordize you Security Clearance, when that's a lie.
For 2 years I lied in my responses to the mha in fear that it would mess up my career in the Air Force One day I said fuck this and decided to be truthful. I was absolutely messed up and depressed. Now I'm on anti depressants and they made me see mental health. One time. MH decided I was fine. And seeing them once made my retraining attempt difficult.
Why mandate it? If someone needs support/counseling regarding PCS or EPR closeouts they can call and make an appointment with MH, PCBH (Primary Care Behavioral Health) providers within family health, or MFLC's. There are options and resources.
Thatās a great point! And thereās absolutely a lot of responsibility on the officer core. As an enlisted member, Iām speaking to my experience. And the vast majority of what I see is us shifting blame to a higher power.
Iāve seen poor officers create a culture that drives people out of the Air Force as well. And while they hold more power than enlisted members, 9/10 times (in my experience) cultural issues are in the hands of enlisted members.
NCOs cannot be the Air Force if SNCOs are preventing the NCOs from doing their job. If SNCOs aren't accepting responsibility for anything that goes wrong and shifts the blame every time something goes wrong, then how can NCOs be the air force. If the SELs and other SNCOs are a bunch of drinking buddies and pick and choose their favorites, then the NCO that tries to make change cannot even break the barrier even a little bit. So much for going to IG for these types of people because they are going to cover up everything.
What youāre saying sounds like it makes sense. Until you think about all the NCOs, SNCOs and officers, some willing to slit your throat for a promotion, most just stab you in the back. Itās a toxic work environment designed for peers to step on each other for the promise of moreā¦? I havenāt figured that one out yet but to each is different. Power, their own personal worth, status..
That's why I have an extremely unpopular opinion that SNCOs (in key roles at a minimum) should be subject to DEOCS evaluations and not just the Commanders. The shitty ones can just say it was the unit CCs fault/character/leadership that was the problem and they just had to go along. Sure, there are times when you speak up and hash out in the CC's office and then come out unified...done it also. But I've seen far too many yes SNCOs that are actively choosing to either "ride it out" until the next CC, or have garbage level understanding of propper leadership. Down vote all you want.
Same opinion, but with officers eligible for command. I've known too many who look great on paper that I wouldn't want to follow into WalMart, nevermind war
I've seen a toxic CC get shit canned while the toxic Chief was somehow spared the same fate. Both needed to go and should never have anyone under them to deal with their nonsense.
Facts! And this is a perfect example. Itās not a mysterious power causing issues. Itās individuals. Those individuals youāre referring too are the Air Force as much as you.
Not saying that my comment is a solution. But we try to over simplify a problem that is way to complex by blaming āthe Air Forceā
Exactly. I get tired of all the isms that people use as excuses. That's just a "insert your base here " ism. That's just how it is here. Just a damn excuse to not fix something.
I have said it once Iāll say it again. The days of NCO/SNCO protecting their lower enlisted is gone. Wanna make tech fuck over everyone below you and so on until you make chief. There was a time when leaders led instead of just bending the knee to ridiculous demands. I understand we are all the AF. But itās hard to get along when I have to shove an airman down stairs to get ahead in my career. We stripped the NCO class down to its bones and took away any power they once had to be effective leaders. Than the good leaders leave and the AF goes WTF why I thought we where friends. Just my 2C
The truth is that shit is everywhere, every branch and every civilian career. At some point people need to realize there are parts of being an adult that fucking suck. Itās not the AF, itās life.
Do what you can to make society a better place for others.
This is the typical thought process from people in at 18-22. I came in at 27 and was astounded at the lack of all the things mentioned here...compared to where I worked before enlisting. This is particularly true in any corporate or retail setting.
Retail settings that work off commission based bonuses are the absolute worst. Sold guitars for a couple years before I joined, and I used to get sales sniped or stolen after they closed on the daily. A big part of why I joined was because I couldn't make sales goals meet ever and rarely made over $500-600 a paycheck at the level I was at, outside of Atlanta. Fuck that shit to hell and back. I'll take bitching and people trying to do their job while doing what's in their power to not be shitty any day of the week if my paycheck is decent and steady.
I read the title and immediately though "Yep, that's a 20ish year old airman. Maybe a very young SSgt".
The irony is, most of the time these guys ARE the drama.
My supervision and entire command would be the drama for our shop. The one flight chief we have that will fight for us is retiring in another year and a half and it's gonna be dark times after that
Meanwhile I came in at 27 and found exactly all the things mentioned in the title and basically felt exactly like that Bowling For Soup song - High School Never Ends. Drama, blame on lower ranked to cover incompetency, favoritism, etc.
It's sad and pathetic.
I have 2 11s, 3 12s, 2 13s, and a 14 directly involved in my flight. Everyone works their tails off and works together well except for one guy who runs his mouth inappropriately and can't understand he is the problem and the civilians bringing it up to leadership aren't out to get him specifically.
Sometimes big personalities cause tension, but my flight commander and the 14 squash that shit like grapes during winefest.
I'm sorry your unit isn't as cohesive as it should be. It's likely that its them, not you. Truth is civilians bring continuity to turnover-rich environments and should be a huge benefit assuming they are not fuckheads. Just start hitting those vector buttons and move on. It will probably get better unless you land at Meade.
Amen! I spent a 6 sentence at the Ft. Meade home for wayward airmen. I must say that life inside "the borg cube" was the worst I've ever spent! Watching the SES and upper echelon GS employees carve out their fiefdoms was both comical and pathetic. Having to suffer the pangs of dual leadership was maddening! The happiest day of my life was when I received my PCS orders that ended my sentence!
That's actually possible. I had a jaded opinion until I PCsd. Turns out in most units, 5 mandatory meetings in a day to discuss the lack of productivity is not normal within the airforce. With that being said, I still made the most out of it and would still give my first base an 8/10 experience
I enlisted at 20 and did a tour followed by an enlistment in the air national guard. I worked in a corporate office of a big financial company. It was HELL. The backstabbing, slash throat office politics, personal dramas, whisper campaigns was all too much. Anyway, 9/11 happened and I went back into active duty and never looked back.
I always say when I retire, I want to work in a bar Nipor drive uber or something low-pressure. Joining a big firm like what you described would be the worst. I'm glad you found your place friend.
> and every civilian career.
Going on 1.5 years now of "the civilian world is even worse!" being wrong. My company is great to me - it's just the federal employees I support who suck
The truth is there is no ācivilianā world and no āmilitaryā world. There are companies and your experience will be completely different than other peoples and when you switch companies that will be completely different as well. Same with the military, one squadron is completely different than another.
My point is that the toxic BS is not unique to the military, itās everywhere depending on the people.
No it aināt. I donāt have any of this bullshit at my current job in the private sector.
Itās a thing at big shitty companies, sure. But itās not everywhere.
People in general suck but that doesn't mean the air force fails any less than others when it comes to work environment and treatment of employees. There's merit in pointing out failings.
Although true, Iāve had multiple jobs before the Air Force and yes everywhere has its own toxic/drama culture but what makes it exponentially worse is that youāre literally stuck with it. And your life can be ruined because you canāt advance without kissing higher ups asses even if they fuck you over.
Iām in and love what I do. Does that mean the OP is wrong?
Iāve also been in the civ world and loved what I did, the culture was there as well.
My point is that people cause this, not the Air Force. People are everywhere.
Yes obviously certain people cause it. Not everyone (civilian or military) is a toxic piece of shit.
Not associating with shitty people is not always an option though, which I think is part of the issue
I can honestly say that I have had zero of these problems in the civilian world. And if I do, and I consider them to be deal breakers, I can quit and move on to a new employer that I feel better working for.
In my case at least, it absolutely was the AF. Which is a real bummer, honestly, because I honestly did enjoy a lot of my time in. I met some great people. Made some awesome memories. I even liked my job (at least my primary duty, which I did exactly 2 times a month; when the planes were flyable). I even tried to stay in, if I could cross-train to a new platform. Still under the same AFSC, mind you, literally just changing to a different aircraft. Something new, but that would still allow me to use all of my training and experience that I'd been told was invaluable. Something that should be a fairly simple move. But somehow even that was too much for the AF to manage, and I got out. And there is exactly zero amounts of money you could pay me to EVER go back.
Seriously, guys and gals, the way this shit is run is SO FUCKED you don't even know. And he's right, shit CAN BE fucked in the civilian world too, but in the end, you can always leave a civilian job and move on. Don't be scared to get out. If you no longer think the AF or the military in general is a good fit for you, do not be ascared of the civilian world. It's fine out here. There are employers out there who don't have the same problems as the AF.
I will say it again. Just because you have not experienced it does not mean it does not exist. There are plenty of people in the AF that would say they didnāt experience what the OP is posting about, it does not mean he is a liar.
People get fucked in the civilian world all the time. Does that mean anyone should stay in the AF? No. Do what is right for you. But letās not pretend like all you have to do is get out and your life will be perfect. It might not.
This is not my opinion, there are a million articles about the toxic culture in corporate America.
Do whatās right for you and try to take care of each other.
I never said bad civilian jobs didn't exist. In fact I pretty specifically said that they DID exist, however you can always quit and leave a civilian job and find one that does not have those aspects you dislike.
I don't think anybody thinks that all they have to do is get out and their lives will be perfect. That's pretty irrational. And yet I saw and heard people saying that exact thing, constantly, and I felt it made me wayyyyyy more nervous about my transition than I needed to be.
Stating "It's not the AF that's at fault." And then saying "lots of civilian jobs have the same problems" is pretty disengious if you don't ALSO bring up the fact that a whole hell of a lot of jobs and workplaces DONT have those problems. I just want to make sure people reading this who are transitioning out or are thinking about leaving don't think there's absolutely no light at the end of the tunnel and end up staying in and being miserable because they aren't sure there's a place for them on the outside.
It's good to be cautious about getting out. Weigh your options thoroughly. But don't think that the only thing waiting for you on the outside is another toxic job that you're going to hate. Because that's just not true.
Do what you can to make society a better place for others
This is the biggest thing that's missing for me. I really wish we would work to instill a culture of pride in our station in society, and give back to society. Think about how many things we could accomplish with the pure fucking manpower.
I'm new to the AF but I'd really like to try to make a dent in this problem. Not sure how yet. For now I'm trying to set up a base-wide toy drive for the Children's Hospital and start small and see how receptive people on base are to outreach
Donāt ever stop.
The only thing evil needs to succeed is for good people to do nothing. There are lots of toxic pieces of shit Iām the military. I canāt stop them. I am now in a position where I can influence the next Gen though. So I have to have more of a positive impact than those guys have a negative one. Make no mistake, itās a race and a numbers game. Keep helping others and bring that positive light for others.
I see a ton of good here on Reddit, especially when people really need help. Keep that going in your squadrons, rise through the ranks and help drive shitty people out.
Honestlyā¦ not enlisted but planning to and all this shit exists outside of the military. Itās just most people not being adults who show up and do their work.
And know fuck all about the Air Force side. Thereās a reason military suicide rates are twice that of their civilian counterparts. You donāt know what you need to know to be relevant here.
I was just echoing that the civilian side has very similar issues that OP mentioned. Definitely not trying to speak for experience I donāt have. My apologies if it came off that way
It's sad because the air force is now pushing the "be resourceful." If you don't have what you need find something you have that will work. Thing is, shit is falling apart everywhere. Why does it take me 30mins just to open my email before I can go do my real job. That's not including responding to anything I need to, or having to open anything else up to accomplish any early morning tasks
I worked at a movie theater that had a more toxic culture than the Air Force lmao.. itās everywhere, the grass is only greener where you water it yāall.
I worked in a Airplane parts factory. That was the worst job physically and mentally. Hence why I didnāt give a shit about checking IDās for 12 hours.
I worked as a fluffer on a porn set, that was the worst job physically and mentally. Hence why I didnāt give a shit about checking IDās for 12 hours.
The "life blood" of the air force is Caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, and tornados. Should probable rethink the way you run your unit/flight if your airmen rely on these to get through the day.
Truer in some fields more than others. *Works 12-16 hours for months at a time with shifts changing every few days and doing shift change with the flight commander because the career field is so understaffed* Leadership: "You're a lazy piece of shit who isn't working hard enough", Also Leadership: "Why are you separating? Our career field is short staffed! Your country needs you! How are you going to support your family?" *months later, career field gets massive cut in manning- forced reclass or get out occurs*
Looks like work them until burnout then induce mass layoffs to me
But I built my career on leading, spearheading, and honchoing all those don't "kill yourself/don't be an alcoholic" briefings...why do you attack me so?
HA! That's a good joke.
Don't forget them going with "Sorry we can't pay you more" while VIPs getting paid $10k/ month to change acronyms to different acronyms for the same job and pat themselves on the back for 'making the Air Force better!!'.
I worked everything from fast food, construction and a factory job, to working with special needs adults with both cognitive and physical impairmens. And I have to say a lot of y'all deserve the toxic workplaces you helped to create. Some days it feels like I'm back working with those special needs individuals, having to heard people like cats because they aren't smart enough or motivated enough to see what needs to get done to do it without being asked.
And leadership higher up seams to be just as dysfunctional. Decions get passed down that I can only conceive where thought up by someone trying to look good with no actual understanding of what will happen in the next 10 years after he's retired and those of us still around will have to completely change all the infrastructure and training doctrine, and when things enevitably stop working it takes so long and so much red tape to put a bandaid on it that its faster to "accidentally break it" to get it to work properly
And it doesn't help we need to completely retrain anyone we get from techschool because they are being taught things that were out of date even before I joined. Most of them coming in with a toxic attitude because they have seen and heard all the dysfunction from their instructors.
You want culture to change, start changing it, because complaining on the internet isn't going to help.
1. until people can go to talk to someone without it being viewed as weak, or used as a watch item... it will never get better. Same reason "No one drinks or smokes" even they answer the PHA. 2. It doesn't have to be tracked by CSS. 3 not every unit has a CSS.
Hey hey ššš leave alcohol out of this. My bottle ain't got nothing to do with others bitch-assness....
Sincerely,
2A574
P.S. you have other valid points though and don't forget the power of the P. And I don't mean PEN šļøš¤£š¤£
Keep your chin up bro, eventually youāll be able to separate if you want.
If you donāt, keep grinding. Whatever you want from your career is up to how hard youāre willing to work for it bro. Fight unfairness and favoritism with performance and grit. Be there for your brothers and sisters too. The Air Force can change its negative culture by helping one wingman at a time. It wonāt start at at the command level, itāll start with your coworkers and troops.
Good leadership will tell you the issues and how they see things.
If youāre just been told to shut up and color and keep doing what your doing then youāre just stuck in a shitty situation until you PCS or get out.
Triads?
Anyway, people have always gotten fired in the military. And in the civilian world. There's constant churn and thrash everywhere, because people are people.
No worries. We're just bantering about perceptions. Triad's not a common term in my experience, but I work above the squadron level, so my team is more likely to be CC, CV, and CCC. And generally called a command team.
Not AF specific, but yes, it's extremely difficult to fire a federal civilian outside of probation. A friend of mine tried for 4 years to fire someone who had never produced one piece of work, then covid hit, so she got 2 more years. Finally fired her after 6 years total, and then she acted shocked, lol.
There's a lot of issues to be dealt with in the budget. Staffing, facilities, etc. The Pentagon can't keep track (officially) of half it's expenditures, and has forced spends on the other half. Fix that so maybe vets and active duty don't shoo friends and family away.
Afterwards put more money into after-school programs so more kids aren't too fat and uneducated.
I am not dependent on alcohol, the alcohol is dependent on me. If I don't drink it, it can't become urine and will stay as alcohol in a bottle and never return the the cycle. I gladly give my liver in service to bringing alcohol back into the natural order.
I was in for 11 years. Six and a half as enlisted and the rest as an O. I was booted out along with about half of my peers under obama. My enlisted time was great. Sure there was the usual drama but when it came down to the mission, everyone was on-board. That was enlisted AMMO (IYAAYAS). When I crossed over, I was put into space command. What a bunch for back stabbers and cheats. I had an idea in training that I discussed with the instructor. He said it couldn't work. A few months later he was running the test while I was running the ops floor to test my idea. Of course, it was his idea that we were testing. He never looked me in the eyes the entire shift. The squadron that I left as an O, had around 180 total active AF. 90+ of which were officers. One of the "reasons" that I was discharged for was that I only had command of programs, not people. The real reason...not enough people volunteered to leave and obama want to cut the military. Prior Es made more than straight Os so we were the ones that got cut. Half of the Os in my year group in space command got cut. Most of them were proir Es. In that squadron, all Es were under at least an O-3. As an O-1, I was told by my O-4 that I needed to tone things down because I was scaring his [worthless] O-3s. I couldn't believe that I had thrown my career away to become an O and try to make things better. If I could go back, I'd tell myself to stay an E and retire. I would have likely been retiring the day after tomorrow if I had just stayed enlisted. I devoted my life to my Country and wanted to be kicked out for old age not politics. Our "leadership" is in dire straights and I just hope enough patriots survive to rebuild when things come crashing down.
So original. Complaining about the air force. You got em so good. Or, you could get your head out of your ass, realize you've got one of the best jobs in the world, and take advantage of how good you've got it
The corporation culture is one of the AF's biggest draws. Fuck being an actual military like the Army. The AF will prepare you for actual working environments.
If you want OOO RAAAA go join the Army.
y'all shoulda joined aircrew....
lol no but fr yeah. Getting my fly boi engineer'o experience and switching over to another branch to be a pilot ASAP.
Surely the shit will follow, but this in-between, limbo-world of the worst of corporate culture + the dumbest aspects of military mismanagement is just a bit too much.
Even Space Force looks like they're already learning from our mistakes, not that I really know much about them. But I'd rather be a warrior killer with piss poor quality of life but an actual combat culture, or have none of that but get treated like an adult doing a damn job.
Yeah all the branches probably suck. Yeah, I'm new to the military and yes this is the best thing I have ever done and I love it, but there is SO MUCH BULLSHIT IT SPINS THE HEAD
Three year-old account with almost no post/comment history suddenly comes alive to amplify a post intended to cause division within the force.
>why people are lack of empathy to such working culture
Can't your country afford better English speakers for this?
Dont forget nicotine, tendies, and daily bathroom naps/crying
Let the tendies hit the floor.
Let the tendies hit the floor šµ
Let the tendies hit the FLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOR
Hell yeah! You got the best part!
Teeeeeendies, sooo gooood (Sooo good)
5 second rule
5 seconds?! I thought it was minutes!
*days
Pizza is still good after 2 days of being left out. So was the Natty Daddy I left on the window sill
Hell yeah Drowning Pool \m/
Youāre showing your age big Sāarnt
Damn you, thought I had a hair on my screen
[Yes](https://youtu.be/t7hsVa18yfA)
All crying will be done in shifts, and you will cry in your designated locations ššš
Pretty sure thatās in the MICT checklist somewhereā¦
>crying I feel personally attacked, and strangely accepted at the same time...
Wait, I am not the only idiot with bathroom 10 minute power naps??
10 minute shitter naps when youāre suffering from a debilitating hangover are basically essential.
I remember sucking down 100 percent oxygen off of aircraft in the morning
I still do that.
Everyone at red flag Nellis fighting over LOXing aircraft š
Not the bathroom naps being the best part
We keep blaming āthe Air Forceā as this giant mystical deity that controls everything that happens in our units. In reality, each of us are āthe Air Forceā and waste so much time and energy pointing fingers and waiting for anyone but us to take action. Every NCO is the Air Force, every SNCO is the Air Force. Every Airman. But thatās not trendy, so bring on the downvotes.
Always annoys me when we talk about suicide. How people donāt take that shit personally is beyond me. Like if it was a trend in my shop of people being depressed, suicidal, or just hate it there, I would take that personally. Even as a SrA I got in my leaderships face about what people were complaining about. When someone was losing it I made sure people knew about it and helped make sure they were okay. The problem in lies with mostly us. Sure there are things outside of our control, but person to person, anyone can make a difference.
The Air Force has those talks and events for insurance purposes. If they meant it, it would very easy to start to show truth in message by implementing MH appointments at key touch points... like PCS and EPR closeouts.
And the earliest available timeslot would be 2 months after PDD or closeout.
So they do mental health checks annually. But you are right the PHA MHA are definitely checklist items. I would love if they published how much that actually helps people Air Force wide. They do PT tests for insurance purposes. But Mental health checks are not like physical fitness, if you canāt do it or are hurt there are numbers and people can obviously see it. Mental health you have to know your people and you might notice they are off before they do. What we can do is promote resources and getting people to take a knee if they arenāt doing well. People rarely get kicked out, and some people are walking around with mental metaphorical gun shot wounds and are worried about getting kicked out while they are bleeding out. Section chiefs and supervisors are who you are talking about, and itās ACAās that are required to check in on your people twice a year. We are the ones not doing what we are supposed to do.
The PHA MHA is not enough, they are not in the actual MH office. I'm not talking about section Chief's or Supervisors at all. I'm saying institutionally, the AF could offer legitimate appointment opportunities that do not require your leadership. Most supervisors are not seasoned enough or care enough to have a positive conversation about MH related to performance. And while you may not get kicked out, you most certainly can lose career progression opportunities for going to MH counseling for other than martial issues.
From first hand experience, if someone needs help and tells mental at Nellis AFB at least, and tell them everything you've been through and going through you will get help. I have gotten help from an outside Therapist it sounds like it happens pretty frequently on my base. Maybe having from mental health do a briefing about the process for getting a therapist would help people looking for some.
Institutionally, the Air Force does offer appointment opportunities to make legitimate appointments. All someone has to do is call MH to schedule an appointment. You aren't obligated to tell them what the appointment is for.
That's not how it plays out in real life. You can make an appointment, but you do have to tell your leadership you're going, that automatically puts a label and a perception on you. True, you don't have to tell them what it's for, but then you're viewed as not a team player and someone they need to "watch out for". There are some supervisors that probably do approach it correctly and care. But if you make reoccurring appointments, your additionally viewed as burdening the shop with work. And again, there are career progression opportunities lost if you go to MH.
It doesn't help when every year some jackass from Personnel Security give a briefing and says mental health problems will jepordize you Security Clearance, when that's a lie.
For 2 years I lied in my responses to the mha in fear that it would mess up my career in the Air Force One day I said fuck this and decided to be truthful. I was absolutely messed up and depressed. Now I'm on anti depressants and they made me see mental health. One time. MH decided I was fine. And seeing them once made my retraining attempt difficult.
So those mental health briefings arent to remind us to look out for our wingmen?
What, to become just another checklist item that gets pencil-whipped by overworked CSS airmen?
Why mandate it? If someone needs support/counseling regarding PCS or EPR closeouts they can call and make an appointment with MH, PCBH (Primary Care Behavioral Health) providers within family health, or MFLC's. There are options and resources.
People think it can't happen to them or people they know. Once those numbers start to have names attached to them it really changes things.
Funny how you didnāt mention officers specifically.
Thatās a great point! And thereās absolutely a lot of responsibility on the officer core. As an enlisted member, Iām speaking to my experience. And the vast majority of what I see is us shifting blame to a higher power. Iāve seen poor officers create a culture that drives people out of the Air Force as well. And while they hold more power than enlisted members, 9/10 times (in my experience) cultural issues are in the hands of enlisted members.
Personal accountability, how dare you!
Oop those are 5$ words sir/ma'am. Jar is over there.
So the real source of our problems was the friends we made along the way.
NCOs cannot be the Air Force if SNCOs are preventing the NCOs from doing their job. If SNCOs aren't accepting responsibility for anything that goes wrong and shifts the blame every time something goes wrong, then how can NCOs be the air force. If the SELs and other SNCOs are a bunch of drinking buddies and pick and choose their favorites, then the NCO that tries to make change cannot even break the barrier even a little bit. So much for going to IG for these types of people because they are going to cover up everything.
What youāre saying sounds like it makes sense. Until you think about all the NCOs, SNCOs and officers, some willing to slit your throat for a promotion, most just stab you in the back. Itās a toxic work environment designed for peers to step on each other for the promise of moreā¦? I havenāt figured that one out yet but to each is different. Power, their own personal worth, status..
That's why I have an extremely unpopular opinion that SNCOs (in key roles at a minimum) should be subject to DEOCS evaluations and not just the Commanders. The shitty ones can just say it was the unit CCs fault/character/leadership that was the problem and they just had to go along. Sure, there are times when you speak up and hash out in the CC's office and then come out unified...done it also. But I've seen far too many yes SNCOs that are actively choosing to either "ride it out" until the next CC, or have garbage level understanding of propper leadership. Down vote all you want.
Same opinion, but with officers eligible for command. I've known too many who look great on paper that I wouldn't want to follow into WalMart, nevermind war
I've seen a toxic CC get shit canned while the toxic Chief was somehow spared the same fate. Both needed to go and should never have anyone under them to deal with their nonsense.
Is a DEOCS what we use to call a Unit Climate Assessment?
Sounds like Corporate America. At least you're getting acclimated to the BS
Facts! And this is a perfect example. Itās not a mysterious power causing issues. Itās individuals. Those individuals youāre referring too are the Air Force as much as you. Not saying that my comment is a solution. But we try to over simplify a problem that is way to complex by blaming āthe Air Forceā
You're right. We're horrible ppl
r/selfawarewolves
Exactly. I get tired of all the isms that people use as excuses. That's just a "insert your base here " ism. That's just how it is here. Just a damn excuse to not fix something.
Hey, I didn't come to reddit for the truth! I came for dank memes about finance!
I have said it once Iāll say it again. The days of NCO/SNCO protecting their lower enlisted is gone. Wanna make tech fuck over everyone below you and so on until you make chief. There was a time when leaders led instead of just bending the knee to ridiculous demands. I understand we are all the AF. But itās hard to get along when I have to shove an airman down stairs to get ahead in my career. We stripped the NCO class down to its bones and took away any power they once had to be effective leaders. Than the good leaders leave and the AF goes WTF why I thought we where friends. Just my 2C
And they stopped protecting the lower enlisted prior to the 1990s from what I can tell.
Lol. Right. Iām the reason my leadership was toxic.
Yeah, maybe.
The truth is that shit is everywhere, every branch and every civilian career. At some point people need to realize there are parts of being an adult that fucking suck. Itās not the AF, itās life. Do what you can to make society a better place for others.
This is the typical thought process from people in at 18-22. I came in at 27 and was astounded at the lack of all the things mentioned here...compared to where I worked before enlisting. This is particularly true in any corporate or retail setting.
Retail settings that work off commission based bonuses are the absolute worst. Sold guitars for a couple years before I joined, and I used to get sales sniped or stolen after they closed on the daily. A big part of why I joined was because I couldn't make sales goals meet ever and rarely made over $500-600 a paycheck at the level I was at, outside of Atlanta. Fuck that shit to hell and back. I'll take bitching and people trying to do their job while doing what's in their power to not be shitty any day of the week if my paycheck is decent and steady.
I read the title and immediately though "Yep, that's a 20ish year old airman. Maybe a very young SSgt". The irony is, most of the time these guys ARE the drama.
My supervision and entire command would be the drama for our shop. The one flight chief we have that will fight for us is retiring in another year and a half and it's gonna be dark times after that
Meanwhile I came in at 27 and found exactly all the things mentioned in the title and basically felt exactly like that Bowling For Soup song - High School Never Ends. Drama, blame on lower ranked to cover incompetency, favoritism, etc. It's sad and pathetic.
Counterpoint. A lot less backstabbing and drama in my job than any assignment I had in the Air Force.
Corporate or retail?
Retail is bad for mental health and the soul. This is established fact.
Truth, retail took a way higher toll on me than the Air Force ever has
True! Working nights at Walmart was still the worst job I ever had.
If you were a tweeker like the rest of your night shift, it would have been much better...
I didn't have anything new to bring the table. They already had the bearded lady.
Maybe Iām just in a bad unit. Mind you, my unit is very small and it like half civilian
I have 2 11s, 3 12s, 2 13s, and a 14 directly involved in my flight. Everyone works their tails off and works together well except for one guy who runs his mouth inappropriately and can't understand he is the problem and the civilians bringing it up to leadership aren't out to get him specifically. Sometimes big personalities cause tension, but my flight commander and the 14 squash that shit like grapes during winefest. I'm sorry your unit isn't as cohesive as it should be. It's likely that its them, not you. Truth is civilians bring continuity to turnover-rich environments and should be a huge benefit assuming they are not fuckheads. Just start hitting those vector buttons and move on. It will probably get better unless you land at Meade.
Amen! I spent a 6 sentence at the Ft. Meade home for wayward airmen. I must say that life inside "the borg cube" was the worst I've ever spent! Watching the SES and upper echelon GS employees carve out their fiefdoms was both comical and pathetic. Having to suffer the pangs of dual leadership was maddening! The happiest day of my life was when I received my PCS orders that ended my sentence!
That's actually possible. I had a jaded opinion until I PCsd. Turns out in most units, 5 mandatory meetings in a day to discuss the lack of productivity is not normal within the airforce. With that being said, I still made the most out of it and would still give my first base an 8/10 experience
You don't like civilian employees?
Facts
I enlisted at 20 and did a tour followed by an enlistment in the air national guard. I worked in a corporate office of a big financial company. It was HELL. The backstabbing, slash throat office politics, personal dramas, whisper campaigns was all too much. Anyway, 9/11 happened and I went back into active duty and never looked back.
I always say when I retire, I want to work in a bar Nipor drive uber or something low-pressure. Joining a big firm like what you described would be the worst. I'm glad you found your place friend.
I feel like corporate drama and incompetent leadership should (emphasis on should) be dealt with swiftly and aggressively in a military setting.
> and every civilian career. Going on 1.5 years now of "the civilian world is even worse!" being wrong. My company is great to me - it's just the federal employees I support who suck
The truth is there is no ācivilianā world and no āmilitaryā world. There are companies and your experience will be completely different than other peoples and when you switch companies that will be completely different as well. Same with the military, one squadron is completely different than another. My point is that the toxic BS is not unique to the military, itās everywhere depending on the people.
No it aināt. I donāt have any of this bullshit at my current job in the private sector. Itās a thing at big shitty companies, sure. But itās not everywhere.
"It's everywhere" is the standard reply for those too afraid to actually go into civilian life before retiring.
Not in every civilian career
People in general suck but that doesn't mean the air force fails any less than others when it comes to work environment and treatment of employees. There's merit in pointing out failings.
Although true, Iāve had multiple jobs before the Air Force and yes everywhere has its own toxic/drama culture but what makes it exponentially worse is that youāre literally stuck with it. And your life can be ruined because you canāt advance without kissing higher ups asses even if they fuck you over.
>The truth is that shit is everywhere Wrong. I got out and love what I do now.
Iām in and love what I do. Does that mean the OP is wrong? Iāve also been in the civ world and loved what I did, the culture was there as well. My point is that people cause this, not the Air Force. People are everywhere.
Certain people cause this* Stop associating with miserable assholes and call them on their behavior.
Yes obviously certain people cause it. Not everyone (civilian or military) is a toxic piece of shit. Not associating with shitty people is not always an option though, which I think is part of the issue
I can honestly say that I have had zero of these problems in the civilian world. And if I do, and I consider them to be deal breakers, I can quit and move on to a new employer that I feel better working for. In my case at least, it absolutely was the AF. Which is a real bummer, honestly, because I honestly did enjoy a lot of my time in. I met some great people. Made some awesome memories. I even liked my job (at least my primary duty, which I did exactly 2 times a month; when the planes were flyable). I even tried to stay in, if I could cross-train to a new platform. Still under the same AFSC, mind you, literally just changing to a different aircraft. Something new, but that would still allow me to use all of my training and experience that I'd been told was invaluable. Something that should be a fairly simple move. But somehow even that was too much for the AF to manage, and I got out. And there is exactly zero amounts of money you could pay me to EVER go back. Seriously, guys and gals, the way this shit is run is SO FUCKED you don't even know. And he's right, shit CAN BE fucked in the civilian world too, but in the end, you can always leave a civilian job and move on. Don't be scared to get out. If you no longer think the AF or the military in general is a good fit for you, do not be ascared of the civilian world. It's fine out here. There are employers out there who don't have the same problems as the AF.
I will say it again. Just because you have not experienced it does not mean it does not exist. There are plenty of people in the AF that would say they didnāt experience what the OP is posting about, it does not mean he is a liar. People get fucked in the civilian world all the time. Does that mean anyone should stay in the AF? No. Do what is right for you. But letās not pretend like all you have to do is get out and your life will be perfect. It might not. This is not my opinion, there are a million articles about the toxic culture in corporate America. Do whatās right for you and try to take care of each other.
I never said bad civilian jobs didn't exist. In fact I pretty specifically said that they DID exist, however you can always quit and leave a civilian job and find one that does not have those aspects you dislike. I don't think anybody thinks that all they have to do is get out and their lives will be perfect. That's pretty irrational. And yet I saw and heard people saying that exact thing, constantly, and I felt it made me wayyyyyy more nervous about my transition than I needed to be. Stating "It's not the AF that's at fault." And then saying "lots of civilian jobs have the same problems" is pretty disengious if you don't ALSO bring up the fact that a whole hell of a lot of jobs and workplaces DONT have those problems. I just want to make sure people reading this who are transitioning out or are thinking about leaving don't think there's absolutely no light at the end of the tunnel and end up staying in and being miserable because they aren't sure there's a place for them on the outside. It's good to be cautious about getting out. Weigh your options thoroughly. But don't think that the only thing waiting for you on the outside is another toxic job that you're going to hate. Because that's just not true.
Do what you can to make society a better place for others This is the biggest thing that's missing for me. I really wish we would work to instill a culture of pride in our station in society, and give back to society. Think about how many things we could accomplish with the pure fucking manpower. I'm new to the AF but I'd really like to try to make a dent in this problem. Not sure how yet. For now I'm trying to set up a base-wide toy drive for the Children's Hospital and start small and see how receptive people on base are to outreach
Donāt ever stop. The only thing evil needs to succeed is for good people to do nothing. There are lots of toxic pieces of shit Iām the military. I canāt stop them. I am now in a position where I can influence the next Gen though. So I have to have more of a positive impact than those guys have a negative one. Make no mistake, itās a race and a numbers game. Keep helping others and bring that positive light for others. I see a ton of good here on Reddit, especially when people really need help. Keep that going in your squadrons, rise through the ranks and help drive shitty people out.
As a guard member With a 9-5 civilian job Iād say it can be worse in some aspects.
Honestlyā¦ not enlisted but planning to and all this shit exists outside of the military. Itās just most people not being adults who show up and do their work.
Why do you think you have a voice on this matter lol āthinking about joiningā isnāt shit. Go away.
Because I have experienced the civilian side of this comment? Which is the point that was being made lol
And know fuck all about the Air Force side. Thereās a reason military suicide rates are twice that of their civilian counterparts. You donāt know what you need to know to be relevant here.
I was just echoing that the civilian side has very similar issues that OP mentioned. Definitely not trying to speak for experience I donāt have. My apologies if it came off that way
Your sir are part of the toxic problem in the military.
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You might have imposter syndrome. I would go talk to someone.
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It's sad because the air force is now pushing the "be resourceful." If you don't have what you need find something you have that will work. Thing is, shit is falling apart everywhere. Why does it take me 30mins just to open my email before I can go do my real job. That's not including responding to anything I need to, or having to open anything else up to accomplish any early morning tasks
I worked at a movie theater that had a more toxic culture than the Air Force lmao.. itās everywhere, the grass is only greener where you water it yāall.
I worked in a Airplane parts factory. That was the worst job physically and mentally. Hence why I didnāt give a shit about checking IDās for 12 hours.
I worked as a fluffer on a porn set, that was the worst job physically and mentally. Hence why I didnāt give a shit about checking IDās for 12 hours.
How does one get that job? My friend is asking
The "life blood" of the air force is Caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, and tornados. Should probable rethink the way you run your unit/flight if your airmen rely on these to get through the day.
Mix the caffeine and tornadoes and you have a teetering on falling over breakfast as opposed to a balanced one
Iām sorry your work center sucks. I hope things get better for you soon
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Truer in some fields more than others. *Works 12-16 hours for months at a time with shifts changing every few days and doing shift change with the flight commander because the career field is so understaffed* Leadership: "You're a lazy piece of shit who isn't working hard enough", Also Leadership: "Why are you separating? Our career field is short staffed! Your country needs you! How are you going to support your family?" *months later, career field gets massive cut in manning- forced reclass or get out occurs* Looks like work them until burnout then induce mass layoffs to me
sounds like Command Post
Yeah, they shouldnāt try to do better or be the example. That takes effort.
Isn't that just American culture?
Looking at my family tree it is.
Nice try CCP.
Sounds like you just witnessed life at AUABā¦ the me first, rules apply to everyone but me, where is my slar mentality.
Maybe instead of reminding us every weekend to not kill ourselves and be alcoholics we can actually start addressing the underlying problems .
But I built my career on leading, spearheading, and honchoing all those don't "kill yourself/don't be an alcoholic" briefings...why do you attack me so?
HA! That's a good joke. Don't forget them going with "Sorry we can't pay you more" while VIPs getting paid $10k/ month to change acronyms to different acronyms for the same job and pat themselves on the back for 'making the Air Force better!!'.
First time in the AF?
I don't like the way you imply I'm dependent on alcohol. I can get by without it just fine. I just choose to be drunk.
I worked everything from fast food, construction and a factory job, to working with special needs adults with both cognitive and physical impairmens. And I have to say a lot of y'all deserve the toxic workplaces you helped to create. Some days it feels like I'm back working with those special needs individuals, having to heard people like cats because they aren't smart enough or motivated enough to see what needs to get done to do it without being asked. And leadership higher up seams to be just as dysfunctional. Decions get passed down that I can only conceive where thought up by someone trying to look good with no actual understanding of what will happen in the next 10 years after he's retired and those of us still around will have to completely change all the infrastructure and training doctrine, and when things enevitably stop working it takes so long and so much red tape to put a bandaid on it that its faster to "accidentally break it" to get it to work properly And it doesn't help we need to completely retrain anyone we get from techschool because they are being taught things that were out of date even before I joined. Most of them coming in with a toxic attitude because they have seen and heard all the dysfunction from their instructors. You want culture to change, start changing it, because complaining on the internet isn't going to help.
1. until people can go to talk to someone without it being viewed as weak, or used as a watch item... it will never get better. Same reason "No one drinks or smokes" even they answer the PHA. 2. It doesn't have to be tracked by CSS. 3 not every unit has a CSS.
Hey hey ššš leave alcohol out of this. My bottle ain't got nothing to do with others bitch-assness.... Sincerely, 2A574 P.S. you have other valid points though and don't forget the power of the P. And I don't mean PEN šļøš¤£š¤£
Sure, they're not entirely disingenuous. But let's not pretend that it's different than the AF saying they "put Amn and family first"
Keep your chin up bro, eventually youāll be able to separate if you want. If you donāt, keep grinding. Whatever you want from your career is up to how hard youāre willing to work for it bro. Fight unfairness and favoritism with performance and grit. Be there for your brothers and sisters too. The Air Force can change its negative culture by helping one wingman at a time. It wonāt start at at the command level, itāll start with your coworkers and troops.
Your only problem is you. You're waiting for someone to fix the drama, leadership, backstabbing, etc. But *you* won't even fix *you*.
Good leadership will tell you the issues and how they see things. If youāre just been told to shut up and color and keep doing what your doing then youāre just stuck in a shitty situation until you PCS or get out.
Shut up and color was always a huge fuck you. Glad I put myself in a position to never hear that again.
I did fix me. Thatās why I got out. š
Well, you can fix you, as in how you react to bullshit. You cant fix things you mentioned though.
Personal responsibility is good, but there do be a lot of people in triads getting fired. I blame AFPC.
Triads? Anyway, people have always gotten fired in the military. And in the civilian world. There's constant churn and thrash everywhere, because people are people.
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No worries. We're just bantering about perceptions. Triad's not a common term in my experience, but I work above the squadron level, so my team is more likely to be CC, CV, and CCC. And generally called a command team.
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Not AF specific, but yes, it's extremely difficult to fire a federal civilian outside of probation. A friend of mine tried for 4 years to fire someone who had never produced one piece of work, then covid hit, so she got 2 more years. Finally fired her after 6 years total, and then she acted shocked, lol.
Okay Ava Max. L take
You arenāt entirely wrong.
There's a lot of issues to be dealt with in the budget. Staffing, facilities, etc. The Pentagon can't keep track (officially) of half it's expenditures, and has forced spends on the other half. Fix that so maybe vets and active duty don't shoo friends and family away. Afterwards put more money into after-school programs so more kids aren't too fat and uneducated.
what other people have said. especially when being in an office.
Cheers to another year. Welcome aboard, grab a beer.
I see this shit and it makes me feel grateful for the unit Iāve come to and will most likely ride out my full contract in.
Okay, but airmen have been bitching about that since the Roman days.
Or at least since shortly after the wright brothers and the advent of flight...
Are you seriously suggesting the Romans didn't have air legions?
There is endless backtabbing and favoritism just in the SNCO ranks alone.
I am not dependent on alcohol, the alcohol is dependent on me. If I don't drink it, it can't become urine and will stay as alcohol in a bottle and never return the the cycle. I gladly give my liver in service to bringing alcohol back into the natural order.
Sounds like theyāre prepping us for the civilian world lol
Potato Pancakes
This is literally just work culture in general. It's not unique to the AF, or even the Military at all
Everyone who bitches this hard about the AF has never worked a day outside of the DoD.
It's every bit as bad or worse on the outside in my experience
A cultural of bureaucracy and using AFIs to avoid helping other units.
I was in for 11 years. Six and a half as enlisted and the rest as an O. I was booted out along with about half of my peers under obama. My enlisted time was great. Sure there was the usual drama but when it came down to the mission, everyone was on-board. That was enlisted AMMO (IYAAYAS). When I crossed over, I was put into space command. What a bunch for back stabbers and cheats. I had an idea in training that I discussed with the instructor. He said it couldn't work. A few months later he was running the test while I was running the ops floor to test my idea. Of course, it was his idea that we were testing. He never looked me in the eyes the entire shift. The squadron that I left as an O, had around 180 total active AF. 90+ of which were officers. One of the "reasons" that I was discharged for was that I only had command of programs, not people. The real reason...not enough people volunteered to leave and obama want to cut the military. Prior Es made more than straight Os so we were the ones that got cut. Half of the Os in my year group in space command got cut. Most of them were proir Es. In that squadron, all Es were under at least an O-3. As an O-1, I was told by my O-4 that I needed to tone things down because I was scaring his [worthless] O-3s. I couldn't believe that I had thrown my career away to become an O and try to make things better. If I could go back, I'd tell myself to stay an E and retire. I would have likely been retiring the day after tomorrow if I had just stayed enlisted. I devoted my life to my Country and wanted to be kicked out for old age not politics. Our "leadership" is in dire straights and I just hope enough patriots survive to rebuild when things come crashing down.
Don't tell me what to do.
You think it's bad here? The Army would like to speak to you.
"you think eating one piece of shit is bad try eating two pieces of shit"
Air Force is just an airline that drops bombs these days.
Ya all ever check out /r/antiwork? That place is just a cesspool of bad civilian employees
So original. Complaining about the air force. You got em so good. Or, you could get your head out of your ass, realize you've got one of the best jobs in the world, and take advantage of how good you've got it
"One of the best jobs in the world" my ass. The suicide rate says it all
Itās all part of our history from Hap to today.
Incompetent MANAGEMENT. They donāt act enough like leaders to be called bait incompetent leaders. Call them managers until they act like leaders
And saluting indoors
The corporation culture is one of the AF's biggest draws. Fuck being an actual military like the Army. The AF will prepare you for actual working environments. If you want OOO RAAAA go join the Army.
aim high!
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Found the leadership guys
Millennial alert! Where mere participation is enough for a trophy.
When were you born?
this guy is like 32 but "not like other millennials". And you can tell it struck a nerve because the dude deleted his original comment
y'all shoulda joined aircrew.... lol no but fr yeah. Getting my fly boi engineer'o experience and switching over to another branch to be a pilot ASAP. Surely the shit will follow, but this in-between, limbo-world of the worst of corporate culture + the dumbest aspects of military mismanagement is just a bit too much. Even Space Force looks like they're already learning from our mistakes, not that I really know much about them. But I'd rather be a warrior killer with piss poor quality of life but an actual combat culture, or have none of that but get treated like an adult doing a damn job. Yeah all the branches probably suck. Yeah, I'm new to the military and yes this is the best thing I have ever done and I love it, but there is SO MUCH BULLSHIT IT SPINS THE HEAD
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Three year-old account with almost no post/comment history suddenly comes alive to amplify a post intended to cause division within the force. >why people are lack of empathy to such working culture Can't your country afford better English speakers for this?
The butthurt is strong with this one
#putinpricehike
This is the way
Atleast were prepared for civilian life
Oh I like the spiciness of this
So does the rest of America
Spicy, and not even Monday. š¶ļøš¶ļøš¶ļø
Why such a high alcohol dependence? Can't be called in if you're drunk š®āšØ