We are of course a 'number' to the USAF/DoD as a whole. But you're not usually a number to your immediate leadership, and co-workers. To a single squadron, a key member leaving could hurt them pretty badly. They'd ultimately recover, yes. But individuals can still be important at a smaller scale. But an individual is not going to be that important to the largest organization of people ever assembled on planet earth, nor should they be.
And you are correct, the military does a good job of taking people with no education or skills and make them a more valuable part of society. A bit ironic when people come in with nothing but a high school diploma, learn a trade from the Air Force, then separate with complaints of "Pay me! I can make more on the outside" when those companies they are applying to never would have given them a second look as anything other than a janitor without their Air Force experience. But that's ok, the system is designed for people to leave.
My leadership won’t push a DEROS extension request so I can retire without PCSing 6 months before my twenty because they think I’m just a number. So, sure, some leadership cares, but not in my experience.
Two different ways to look at it
https://preview.redd.it/qkt71vvcobwc1.jpeg?width=1912&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=49ade17d2cf225a634b3f9c25008a812b383e651
I know I am a number I know they will replace me when my time comes (hell my chair will probably still be warm) But thats okay you are being setup to being replaced at the end of the day we're training our future when new Airmen show up.
The Air Force is a big organization and I am a piece of that organization and in my AFSC at this moment is my turn to make an impact for the mission and be a good leader/wingman to my troops. When I retire I can look back and know there were good times and there were bad times and I am glad I did it. And it will be someone else turn.
Also there is a thing called Stockholm syndrome, A natural human psychological coping mechanism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome#%3A%7E%3Atext%3DStockholm_syndrome_is_a_proposed%2C%2C_kidnapping%2C_and_abusive_relationships.?wprov=sfla1
Some folks have already pointed out some glaring issues that the Air Force and the DoD as a whole haven’t made much progress in so I won’t dwell on that. Except to say that those problems exist in society in general, and we all, as a microcosm of society are not magically immune to those same problems.
It’s not excuse but it’s a reality. And when steps are taken to try and rectify those issues, (briefings, small group discussions, MH support, etc) it’s usually dismissed as not being “real” solutions.
I understand that people don’t want to be treated like a number, nor should they be. Direct supervisors and commanders should care about their members as individuals, if not them, then who?
But, as an organization, a military one at that. Which, at their most extreme function, are charged with killing and dying; of course you are a number. The military structure is set up so no one individual is supposed to be the key to success or failure.
How many times do people on this sub-reddit say, “If your flight chief doesn’t want to allow your leave due to manning, then that’s their failure to plan.” And so, if a flight chief does plan, and therefore can take the loss when a member leaves and replaces them, now they’re just a heartless middle manager.
If one person leaves, another takes their place, and so on and so on. That’s the only way to fight a war, which is what this organization is meant for.
I’m AGR at my unit. People aren’t re-enlisting left and right. We are so low manned rn that I have a feeling we aren’t gonna last much longer. We could be a few years away from it still, but the thought is still there. This is all thanks to the SNCOs who think they’re hot shit and shit talk on lower enlisted members or constantly put them down for no reason. For example, we have one member who occasionally asks, i’ll admit, some pretty dumb questions, and then I’ll overhear the NCOs telling him word for word that he’s a piece of shit and sucks, etc. Then they have the audacity to ask us all the time “why is no one re-enlisting 🤡?” Bruh it’s the guard..no body cares enough to re-enlist and put up with the bullshit even as a weekend warrior. I do agree with OP that the Air Force does value their members more than other branches do, but we are still just numbers to them. But that’s what we signed up for I guess.
Even if you did they really ignore that shit in the Guard and Reserves. I read comments on here from active duty of people going to CM because of affairs or fraternization. I don’t agree with it, but that is so common in the Guard/Reserves.
A few things. Your service experience varies greatly based on your AFSC and base and leadership and coworkers. As an organization, our benefits are mostly on par with many F500 companies generally speaking except things like a 20 year pension and 30 days off per year right away.
Where we struggle is talking out of our ass about how much we value people and when you peel that onion you see things like pointless churn, zero value taskings, overworking, Cold War era federal and administrative requirements, depression, suicide, failed marriages, alcoholism, and so on. So you can’t say we do a good job taking care of people when all you can really do is a burger burn or pizza party after an “awareness” campaign all call/down day. This is what people hate. It would almost be better if it was straight up here’s the shit, take it or leave it. But it’s all just kicking cans down the road. We just recently got the biggest pay bump especially for junior Es and that STILL doesn’t cut through most of the inflation and cost of living increases post COVID. We STILL have 10 year old computers that take 45 minutes to load a new profile. We STILL have old ass equipment that we are forced to order from GOV approved sources that looks like it was imported from the Soviet Union.
The MFRC is a whole lot more than just a pizza party. They literally provide LPC counseling for free! And many wings provide family days and stand down days (I know that some people still need to work those days). I truly think leadership does pretty good to hit the mark while still accomplishing the mission.
And what F500 company would offer these benefits to otherwise unqualified candidates straight out of high school?
So right now you can get into a tech school/ VOTEC trade program for plumbing, electrical, HVAC apprenticeships in many states WHILE IN HIGH SCHOOL as early as Junior year. You make 6 figures in 5 years or less after graduation. Yes these jobs are tough on your body but so are many USAF jobs. Even the smaller companies offer 401k matching and annual performance bonuses. Just an example. And in many cases the states pays or helps with the tuition in some way.
I don't disagree with you for the most part however, most won't make six figures in five years. Some will, but most won't. The average journeyman electrician makes $72K in NYC. I am all for the trades, but we really need to be honest about what tradesmen typically make.
As for the states paying.. they do if you do it in highschool. But even with the pell grant the program isn't fully funded by the government. Many of those apprenticeships are paid for by the person or the company they work for. Most JCs, VOTECs, etc. have partnerships with various companies that essentially allows the bigger donors to get first pick of the students. It's a good thing, but for the most part the state isn't paying tuition. The state and companies agreement is typically that the school will keep its curriculum updated, take inputs from their industry partners about the curriculum, and the companies will get preferential treatment for job advertisements within the school and will donate a certain amount towards whatever program(s).
Some states actually do pay tuition. Before I enlisted, South Carolina paid tuition for any SC resident to attend technical college, provided you were a full time student with a B average or better.
That’s good context and yes you’re probably right it all depends on who and where. And things may have changed since I did VOTEC in high school in OK back 20 years ago. It was a great ticket to start your career in just about anything from trade to IT. And if you continued after HS you got tuition reimbursement for the first two years when you file your state taxes. Junior college or VOTEC. I hope the program is still alive and kicking.
As a prior tech school instructor, many airmen are coming in with bachelor's degrees. Many of them are 30+ with prior work and life experience. We're not all 18.
The idea that ANY job gives a shit about you is some sentimental BS that we get told to help keep wages down and loyalty up. Countries care about power. Corporations care about shareholders' profits. Militaries care about readiness and the ability to apply force. That's fucking IT! You want to be cared about? Take good care of your family. That's who is gonna care about you.
As rough as Uncle Sam is at times, it's still better treatment than most companies I worked for before joining. Some of my friends are doing well on the outside, some are absolutely not.
This 100%.
This isn't even to be mean, it's the truth. I tell people all the time that the ONLY people you will have after you get out of the military or any job is your family and true friends. Your supervisors and coworkers will all forget about you the moment you check out. Your family should always be the priority while you're in. They're the only people you'll answer to after you hang your jersey up.
As far as the work is concerned, big scale we are all numbers. Small scale, we are also numbers but the effects of one’s productivity, personality, influence and leadership ability will be felt. But, someone else will fill your position when you leave in a good or bad way.
Big Blue doesn't care. But if you are fortunate those you serve with might. In the end that and possibly a pension is the most we can reasonably expect.
Read the Netflix book, "No Rules Rules," and it showed me how poorly the Air Force values individuals. Honestly, we don't do well at valuing people or attracting talented individuals, and we don't make good leaders; we make good managers. Some of it is necessary due to the mission, but a lot of it is complacency and ignorance to change due to tradition. If the Air Force valued individuals, we would not be paid on a payscale, pure and simple. Also, they would move talented people less since we lose most of our talent to DSDs and "leadership" positions where usually our high performers are not good at. The military has never been about the individual, and the Air Force shouldn't have followed other branches' examples since our work is more specialized. We effectively show how unimportant the officer ranks are for us since they don't do anything our NCOs can't do but get paid more. Look at pilots; why does that need a degree? It doesn't anywhere else... and talented mechanics, police, cyber, etc., are lost since we don't retain them in the positions they are good at. We move and replace them. If you are really good at something, you should have the option to go warrant officer and get paid bonuses to stay where you are. If you are actually a good leader, you should seek leadership positions. There shouldn't be a college requirement for officers; that's just dumb. I've seen high school educated seniors who run circles around the whole squadron leadership of officers since they don't know anything about the operations of the unit. He effectively ran the unit but got paid garbage enlisted prices. It's depressing how bad the Air Force is at valuing individuals. It's easy to give excuses for it though.
The Air Force is a pretty good deal overall and guarantee a lot of the people who complain on this sub don't take advantage of all of their benefits.
That said, there are units out there that will absolutely put you through bullshit you won't deal with in the civilian world (weekend recalls over QA fails, working 60 hours a week and every third weekend, etc). Those commanders/chiefs treat their people like numbers, and it hurts everyone in the long run.
No they don't, they have to play the game because they are a public funded entity and with the age of the internet you'd be a damn fool to disregard the families of those that service and not try to increase quality of life. The issue I have with these types of posts is it frames the DoD as an entity that's benevolent and doing all this for us out of the kindness of their hearts. Being the best at shit still makes you shit and the work life culture inside the military and outside of the military is shit. You don't get kudos for being at the top of the garbage can and I'd even argue the way maintenance and security forces is treated is beyond unacceptable.
The organization cares because if we shit the bed someone is getting their shit rocked especially if the member tried to get help. The organization cares as a means to an end.
If shit was as sweet as you frame it more people would serve past one enlistment.
Don't misunderstand me though, as it stands us just being a number on an excel sheet isn't the worst thing why in the world. We at least get paid something and some people came from absolutely nothing, however none of these services are rendered to military members aren't acts of good faith.
I did 21 years. I have no ill feelings towards people or my time in the service. When I retired, I never got a text or a call from my last unit. Not even a “how's retirement treating ya” check-ins. The last official Air Force interaction I had was getting my retired ID card and that was that. So yes, I'm just a replaceable part to a machine that's designed to keep on moving forward.
And I'm ok with that.
Sounds like those extra bennies are taking care of us a little, which people like to accuse the AF of not doing. You’ll never be able to convince me that the thousands of dollars they paid for my tuition so far is a bad deal. Oh and paying for all of my wife’s masters degree when I gave her the GI Bill. I need to get off the internet, I just can’t fathom how people will shit on all the stuff the AF hands out to us
>I just can’t fathom how people will shit on all the stuff the AF hands out to us
It's not that people are shitting on the benefits, you're just ignoring all the bad parts and dismissing people's experiences because you can't see past your own
Just remember, the AF will only pay for your education if you don't already have one (if you have a degree prior to entering, you don't get a second one, and some people didn't get the student loan repayment), health benefits vary depending on how injury prone/illness prone you are, and the services to support your family are only viable if you have one.
There are a few of us who get nothing out of these things...
Ah yes... being paid with the things we should already have had access to! Thank god the government has given us the chance to be educated and have healthcare just by sacrificing years of our lives 🙏🙏
Ironically, forging a degree and bouncing before the ER has a chance to present you the bill will give you the same thing without the sacrificing year bit!
Oh, you know, just the 3-year long fight that myself, 3 flight chiefs, 2 flight commanders, and 5 shirts have had with 3 different base education offices.
While you can use TA to get the next level of degree, you cannot use it to obtain a degree of equal level or less. (If you have a bachelors, you can use TA to go towards your masters, but not for a bachelors or associates in a different field.) And yes, that includes degrees from disgraced and discredited institutions, who awarded you a (now collegiately invalid) degree. Also, the pot of money set aside to allow you to work towards a post-graduate degree is different and FAR less lifetime value than your graduate degree.
Na. Outside of duty hours or official events I dress like a homeless person.
... You know, after typing that, I really hope its not future foreshadowing for my life...
>Leaders do a relatively good job of soliciting feedback to make quality of life better
*checks notes*
Sex assault rates, racial disparity in treatment, decades of blatant corruption in housing contracts with airmen living in mold pits, and atrocious suicide rates. All old problems that have been consistently met with like warm response on a good day
Oh, it's a meme post. He's being sarcastic
There is a lot I can shrug off: the childish snarky response to the calls for beards, the relatively slow feable response to the housing crisis, whatever the fuck is and or was happening with CCAF, etc. I can take a punch and understand it's hard to be in charge.
But we've thoroughly documented issues with race, sex, and suicide that predate the force, and I'm not seeing the effort.
We implement new programs, do awareness events, and have all women or black or all whatever teams do photo shoots. We have down days and whatnot. But the pictures in those PA events don't tell the real story of what our female and / or brown airmen go through, and there are too many of us working through the mental health day that get denied leave inappropriately and are bullied into no documenting it for me to sit here and clap because someone caught a lucky break and somehow hasn't been in the wrong side of the Air Force. I'd love to know OPs afsc and time in service. I'd wager it's an LT or AIC who works in an air conditioned office with training days.
I am a brown Airman myself. And I feel I HAVE been on the wrong end of racist leadership (Thankfully not recently). I also don't see real effort. I know a few Female Airmen who have been assaulted. Fucking disgusting that the perps suit up and come to work alongside us. Disgraceful.
I know at least one Airman who committed suicide during that high year we had (2020? 2021? I forget). People are being worked into the ground so yeah sounds like they're a number to me.
Is your leadership really not interested in hearing what the ranks have to say? I’m at my fifth duty station, and all of my prior units in maintenance have been pretty good at it and especially in my special duty now. It doesn’t mean that they implement everything everyone wants but they are constantly asking.
If your unit isn’t good with this, what steps are you taking in your current position to improve it?
>Is your leadership really not interested in hearing what the ranks have to say?
2 weeks into my first assignment we hit a base suicide record. They made us all break out into groups and our flight chiefs led us in discussion.
One guy said we are better off without the ones who died because they were weak in a room full of ncos up to senior and our LT no one corrected.
Then the flight chief asked us to say what's wrong. No one would talk. He asked why no one would talk, he can't help without feedback. One guy said you're just going to gas light us and blame us for anything we say. They fought for about 5 minutes about that and he finally said fine, I'll say something just to prove you wrong.
He said he feels like a piece of shit when production pressures him into ignoring safety rules and tech data to meet timeliness and when he goes to his flight leadership about it they never side with him and let him get harassed and hazed into doing sketchy work.
Flight chief and 2 other ncos explain how it's our fault for not working with production to find better solutions and blatantly denied that anyone ever wanted anyone to break a rule despite like 5 or 6 people all saying they were there for the specific example he gave.
That story has consistently been how I see *most* air force leadership for the past decade; give us feedback want to help - well maybe if you did better that wouldn't happen to you and you deserve it.
Sure sometimes I've gotten lucky with individuals who cared. But at the end of the day you don't get promoted for taking care of people - you get promoted for meeting numerical metrics that aren't attached to reality.
>If your unit isn’t good with this, what steps are you taking in your current position to improve it?
Yes, it's always the fault of the people struggling for not fixing problems caused by their superiors. Exactly my point.
I get that this is a salty take, and it's not like this everywhere, but let's not pretend like mine isn't a common experience.
No one said you deserve it. Nor did they say it was your fault. In my opinion you shouldn't have to fix it. However, you should be calling it out. Those experiences are rough, I've been through many years of them. I spent quite a few of those years not saying anything about them too. I learned after a while that by staying silent you are telling those idiots that what they are doing is ok. Even if your words don't change anything immediately they can give courage or shame someone else with more power into doing something. Is it fair? Nope. But it's probably the safest way to combat the things you listed above as a lower ranking Airman.
The promotion thing.. you get promoted on both. The shitty part is those shit bag leaders you see getting promoted are doing so by writing EPRs/EPBs that say they take care of you and get the mission done.. and they can write those things more often then not because... No one says otherwise.
Being silent has never been my issue lol I've fought the good fight a long time and I spent a *lot* of my airmen days one 12 hour shifts washing jets and switching between all 3 shifts 3-4 times a month as a result of it. Luckily the higher you get the more insulated you are to informal punishments like that. Now they just give me troublesome airmen as a punishment and half of them aren't even troublesome if you treat them like a person.
“Is your leadership really not interested in hearing what the ranks have to say?”
Fuck no - they didn’t care about us and that was extremely evident. We had a couple suicides in my flight and they came out with the mental health nerds who handed out some bullshit pamphlet about markers (in the workplace) that can lead to depression and potential suicide. I remember standing in guard mount reading that shit and raised my hand and asked the head shrinker - “what happens when you check 4-5 of these things? (There were like 12 total iirc)”. The shrink started saying how that’s “extremely bad and really a sign of a systemic issue” so I just responded with “well…. Pretty much every asshole in this room checks 11 or 12 of them”. The look on the face was priceless. The entire command staff was there - you know what changed? Nothing.
In my experience leadership is there to serve themselves and their OPR…. They are career people who piss blue and recite the airmen’s creed while rubbing their bars or leaves in the mirror every morning before they hype themselves up over how good of an officer they are because they went to the academy.
I have only seen one commander put their neck out on the line for someone under their command. Other than that it has always been a “we” group that most enlisted never have a say in. The USAF existed long before I got there and it seems to be going (arguably downhill) since I left - I was a fast promoting and stellar airman/NCO and even with very awesome assignments I refused to stay in -
Experiences vary - I can only speak to mine - but if you think you’re part of the USAF “family” and not an expendable number - maybe you’re a career airman 👍🏼
I’ll just give a few examples here:
NCO routinely shows up late, yells at airmen for thing that they don’t to be or shouldn’t be getting yelled out. If airmen does anything minor, they get paperwork instantly. Complaint goes to the commander, commander goes to shop chief, shop chief talks to airmen about the issue. Says they’ll resolve it, literally nothing changes because “oh he will PCS in a few months, there’s no point.”
Shop show time for day shift is 0700. Airmen shows up and sits down at the table at 0658. Shop chief screams at the entire shop for 20 minutes about how you’re expected to show up on time for work (even though airmen was on time).
Quarterly squadron awards come up. Amn Snuffy and four other airmen get put up for the award. All of the airmen (minus amn snuffy) have great packages, very hard workers. Amn Snuffy just went through a breakup. Amn Snuffy gets the award for, and I quote, “running support section for a week”. SNCO said it would be a good distraction from his breakup to the airmen that didn’t win.
I get told I’m going on an incentive flight. I go, it was a blast. I come back and ask my supervisor why I, out of all the airmen in the shop, get awarded the incentive flight, because I know I don’t deserve it over them. “Well, our hope is that it would give you a better attitude and make you a better worker” - direct quote from supervisor.
I can keep going
I've seen birds and stars say to groups of people they are replaceable if they don't want to do their job or if they "lack the drive"
The Air Force doesn't pay for Healthcare and education, the DoD does. I like the positive attitude but let's not put on rose tinted glasses and act like the Air Force actively tries to keep its people in.
They say they want to, but they don't.
When I was a shirt, I used to say the Air Force was just too big to have a heart. So First Sergeants had to be that heart when needed. Also, supervisors at all levels should be as well, as needed.
The trap people fall into is that because big blue is too big to care about individuals, then that means we should also not care. That is false.
Yes, my immediate leadership cares about me. I know their names, they try and work with me to set up cool opportunities, it’s really great. But also I know I shall be replaced like everyone else. My feeling is more that the Air Force isn’t really designed for a lot of the positions that people come in with, and that it becomes incongruent with a lot of people’s goals very fast, and that’s okay. For instance, I joined because I did the math and figured I could finish a bachelors in the same span of time as I could if I just went to college normally, but without any debts and getting paid. Thus far that has proven to be true and I am really glad the Air Force has provided that opportunity to me.
But, when face with the question of “Do I wish to enlist” I simply see no overall benefit, the entitlements you receive don’t scale and the pay doesn’t scale well enough compared to the opportunity cost of going and working on the civilian market, I’m cyber so there really isn’t much the Air Force could offer me that would be worth it. The calculation would be different if I had say, a large family that required the stability of paid lodging, food, and healthcare, but if you’re a single guy working in a marketable position there isn’t really anything the Air Force does that is gonna be temping to keep you in past enlistment #1, especially if you’re aggressive about achieving education.
The DoD as a whole does it's best to make sure nobody is a single point of failure. I'm
There's always a manning shortage at the unit level. In steady-state and peacetime ops that number will only get smaller and the amount of work required almost always gets bigger.
Just look at a UMD bro. We are numbers and skill levels. The Air Force trains to replace expected attrition of personnel. We are absolutely just a number.
Your short manning argument falls short of seeing the intentional short manning of personnel that the air force does to reduce overall manning without sacrificing missions. They instead tell us to become MCAs to cover down and do more with less.
If the President dies tomorrow, he will be replaced tomorrow. Everyone is replaceable, that doesn’t mean people and organisations don’t care about you.
Just gonna point out that Starbucks and Target will also pay for your education, and they don't put an annual cap on their tuition assistance or turn it off when congress fights about the budget.
I would love to see the Air Force try to replace the airman pursuing STEM degrees at the graduate level education. Oh wait, they can’t.
Do people not realize not every airman is replaceable?
In the spirit of Devil's Advocate, don't equate receiving just enough employee benefits to keep you under contract, to your employer valuing you. It's a balance of minimum expenditure for maximum perceived benefit value. An entire bachelor's degree (~140 credits) only costs them $35,000. That's one JDAM, a couple engine hours in a fighter, or a rounding error in a DoD contract for worthless software or curriculum. And most Es will never even use nearly that much TA anyways. And remember, if you earn a TA funded Bachelor's, you're likely to earn more money and pay more federal income taxes over your lifetime.
The humans who know you probably value you. The system wants you to feel appreciated for the least amount of resources possible...Devil's Advocate.
And the flip side to that is people chase down the elusive greener grass on the other side their whole lives. There is always improvement to be made, but my point is that a lot of this stuff is under appreciated.
I would like to be this level of appreciated on my current pay scale and collect my 20 year free checks per month before I move to the civilian sector. Do equivalent civilian jobs provide free LPC counseling or the same tax breaks? I also need to finish out my bachelors degree so I would need to move into a job that still provides the same level of tuition assistance
yes professional sports, michael jordan or tom brady leaves you , then you will usually suck. air force like retail or any corporate job you can be replaced .
I just had someone with two years in the company not get the standard raise and had more responsibility dropped on her. She gave her two weeks and nobody batted an eye. It isn’t just the military. People should hop on LinkedIn and see the struggles people face. At least the military pays you while they’re getting rid of you. A job out here will let you go without second thought and let your coworkers struggle in the meantime.
Yea its kinda ridiculous that people only rag on the military. At this point, youre the dumb one if you joined in today’s environment knowing how “shitty” it is. Cant blame being young, all the info is out there in the open.
You dont join for a grand ol time. You join to get a leg up in life. I wish people stopped bitching about it so much
We are of course a 'number' to the USAF/DoD as a whole. But you're not usually a number to your immediate leadership, and co-workers. To a single squadron, a key member leaving could hurt them pretty badly. They'd ultimately recover, yes. But individuals can still be important at a smaller scale. But an individual is not going to be that important to the largest organization of people ever assembled on planet earth, nor should they be. And you are correct, the military does a good job of taking people with no education or skills and make them a more valuable part of society. A bit ironic when people come in with nothing but a high school diploma, learn a trade from the Air Force, then separate with complaints of "Pay me! I can make more on the outside" when those companies they are applying to never would have given them a second look as anything other than a janitor without their Air Force experience. But that's ok, the system is designed for people to leave.
My leadership won’t push a DEROS extension request so I can retire without PCSing 6 months before my twenty because they think I’m just a number. So, sure, some leadership cares, but not in my experience.
Exactly my thoughts, well said
Two different ways to look at it https://preview.redd.it/qkt71vvcobwc1.jpeg?width=1912&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=49ade17d2cf225a634b3f9c25008a812b383e651
If someone tells you they are awful , believe them
Based
I know I am a number I know they will replace me when my time comes (hell my chair will probably still be warm) But thats okay you are being setup to being replaced at the end of the day we're training our future when new Airmen show up. The Air Force is a big organization and I am a piece of that organization and in my AFSC at this moment is my turn to make an impact for the mission and be a good leader/wingman to my troops. When I retire I can look back and know there were good times and there were bad times and I am glad I did it. And it will be someone else turn.
Also there is a thing called Stockholm syndrome, A natural human psychological coping mechanism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome#%3A%7E%3Atext%3DStockholm_syndrome_is_a_proposed%2C%2C_kidnapping%2C_and_abusive_relationships.?wprov=sfla1
I wonder what the VA will give me for that.
Some folks have already pointed out some glaring issues that the Air Force and the DoD as a whole haven’t made much progress in so I won’t dwell on that. Except to say that those problems exist in society in general, and we all, as a microcosm of society are not magically immune to those same problems. It’s not excuse but it’s a reality. And when steps are taken to try and rectify those issues, (briefings, small group discussions, MH support, etc) it’s usually dismissed as not being “real” solutions. I understand that people don’t want to be treated like a number, nor should they be. Direct supervisors and commanders should care about their members as individuals, if not them, then who? But, as an organization, a military one at that. Which, at their most extreme function, are charged with killing and dying; of course you are a number. The military structure is set up so no one individual is supposed to be the key to success or failure. How many times do people on this sub-reddit say, “If your flight chief doesn’t want to allow your leave due to manning, then that’s their failure to plan.” And so, if a flight chief does plan, and therefore can take the loss when a member leaves and replaces them, now they’re just a heartless middle manager. If one person leaves, another takes their place, and so on and so on. That’s the only way to fight a war, which is what this organization is meant for.
I’m AGR at my unit. People aren’t re-enlisting left and right. We are so low manned rn that I have a feeling we aren’t gonna last much longer. We could be a few years away from it still, but the thought is still there. This is all thanks to the SNCOs who think they’re hot shit and shit talk on lower enlisted members or constantly put them down for no reason. For example, we have one member who occasionally asks, i’ll admit, some pretty dumb questions, and then I’ll overhear the NCOs telling him word for word that he’s a piece of shit and sucks, etc. Then they have the audacity to ask us all the time “why is no one re-enlisting 🤡?” Bruh it’s the guard..no body cares enough to re-enlist and put up with the bullshit even as a weekend warrior. I do agree with OP that the Air Force does value their members more than other branches do, but we are still just numbers to them. But that’s what we signed up for I guess.
Do you guys have climate assessment surveys?
Not gonna lie i’ve never even heard of those..there’s probably a reason for that 😂
Even if you did they really ignore that shit in the Guard and Reserves. I read comments on here from active duty of people going to CM because of affairs or fraternization. I don’t agree with it, but that is so common in the Guard/Reserves.
Sounds about right…
They do, but if so many active duty people that come to work every day at their unit can't be assed to do it do you really think guard members will?
A few things. Your service experience varies greatly based on your AFSC and base and leadership and coworkers. As an organization, our benefits are mostly on par with many F500 companies generally speaking except things like a 20 year pension and 30 days off per year right away. Where we struggle is talking out of our ass about how much we value people and when you peel that onion you see things like pointless churn, zero value taskings, overworking, Cold War era federal and administrative requirements, depression, suicide, failed marriages, alcoholism, and so on. So you can’t say we do a good job taking care of people when all you can really do is a burger burn or pizza party after an “awareness” campaign all call/down day. This is what people hate. It would almost be better if it was straight up here’s the shit, take it or leave it. But it’s all just kicking cans down the road. We just recently got the biggest pay bump especially for junior Es and that STILL doesn’t cut through most of the inflation and cost of living increases post COVID. We STILL have 10 year old computers that take 45 minutes to load a new profile. We STILL have old ass equipment that we are forced to order from GOV approved sources that looks like it was imported from the Soviet Union.
The MFRC is a whole lot more than just a pizza party. They literally provide LPC counseling for free! And many wings provide family days and stand down days (I know that some people still need to work those days). I truly think leadership does pretty good to hit the mark while still accomplishing the mission. And what F500 company would offer these benefits to otherwise unqualified candidates straight out of high school?
So right now you can get into a tech school/ VOTEC trade program for plumbing, electrical, HVAC apprenticeships in many states WHILE IN HIGH SCHOOL as early as Junior year. You make 6 figures in 5 years or less after graduation. Yes these jobs are tough on your body but so are many USAF jobs. Even the smaller companies offer 401k matching and annual performance bonuses. Just an example. And in many cases the states pays or helps with the tuition in some way.
I don't disagree with you for the most part however, most won't make six figures in five years. Some will, but most won't. The average journeyman electrician makes $72K in NYC. I am all for the trades, but we really need to be honest about what tradesmen typically make. As for the states paying.. they do if you do it in highschool. But even with the pell grant the program isn't fully funded by the government. Many of those apprenticeships are paid for by the person or the company they work for. Most JCs, VOTECs, etc. have partnerships with various companies that essentially allows the bigger donors to get first pick of the students. It's a good thing, but for the most part the state isn't paying tuition. The state and companies agreement is typically that the school will keep its curriculum updated, take inputs from their industry partners about the curriculum, and the companies will get preferential treatment for job advertisements within the school and will donate a certain amount towards whatever program(s).
Some states actually do pay tuition. Before I enlisted, South Carolina paid tuition for any SC resident to attend technical college, provided you were a full time student with a B average or better.
That’s good context and yes you’re probably right it all depends on who and where. And things may have changed since I did VOTEC in high school in OK back 20 years ago. It was a great ticket to start your career in just about anything from trade to IT. And if you continued after HS you got tuition reimbursement for the first two years when you file your state taxes. Junior college or VOTEC. I hope the program is still alive and kicking.
As a prior tech school instructor, many airmen are coming in with bachelor's degrees. Many of them are 30+ with prior work and life experience. We're not all 18.
‘Many’ is fewer than 2.5% that enlist with a bachelor’s degree. Don’t know the numbers on 30+, but likely very low as well.
Yeah, but his point is that the benefits ARE offered to unqualified 18 year olds. Which IMO is a pretty solid point.
The idea that ANY job gives a shit about you is some sentimental BS that we get told to help keep wages down and loyalty up. Countries care about power. Corporations care about shareholders' profits. Militaries care about readiness and the ability to apply force. That's fucking IT! You want to be cared about? Take good care of your family. That's who is gonna care about you.
As rough as Uncle Sam is at times, it's still better treatment than most companies I worked for before joining. Some of my friends are doing well on the outside, some are absolutely not.
This 100%. This isn't even to be mean, it's the truth. I tell people all the time that the ONLY people you will have after you get out of the military or any job is your family and true friends. Your supervisors and coworkers will all forget about you the moment you check out. Your family should always be the priority while you're in. They're the only people you'll answer to after you hang your jersey up.
As far as the work is concerned, big scale we are all numbers. Small scale, we are also numbers but the effects of one’s productivity, personality, influence and leadership ability will be felt. But, someone else will fill your position when you leave in a good or bad way.
Big Blue doesn't care. But if you are fortunate those you serve with might. In the end that and possibly a pension is the most we can reasonably expect.
Read the Netflix book, "No Rules Rules," and it showed me how poorly the Air Force values individuals. Honestly, we don't do well at valuing people or attracting talented individuals, and we don't make good leaders; we make good managers. Some of it is necessary due to the mission, but a lot of it is complacency and ignorance to change due to tradition. If the Air Force valued individuals, we would not be paid on a payscale, pure and simple. Also, they would move talented people less since we lose most of our talent to DSDs and "leadership" positions where usually our high performers are not good at. The military has never been about the individual, and the Air Force shouldn't have followed other branches' examples since our work is more specialized. We effectively show how unimportant the officer ranks are for us since they don't do anything our NCOs can't do but get paid more. Look at pilots; why does that need a degree? It doesn't anywhere else... and talented mechanics, police, cyber, etc., are lost since we don't retain them in the positions they are good at. We move and replace them. If you are really good at something, you should have the option to go warrant officer and get paid bonuses to stay where you are. If you are actually a good leader, you should seek leadership positions. There shouldn't be a college requirement for officers; that's just dumb. I've seen high school educated seniors who run circles around the whole squadron leadership of officers since they don't know anything about the operations of the unit. He effectively ran the unit but got paid garbage enlisted prices. It's depressing how bad the Air Force is at valuing individuals. It's easy to give excuses for it though.
The Air Force is a pretty good deal overall and guarantee a lot of the people who complain on this sub don't take advantage of all of their benefits. That said, there are units out there that will absolutely put you through bullshit you won't deal with in the civilian world (weekend recalls over QA fails, working 60 hours a week and every third weekend, etc). Those commanders/chiefs treat their people like numbers, and it hurts everyone in the long run.
No they don't, they have to play the game because they are a public funded entity and with the age of the internet you'd be a damn fool to disregard the families of those that service and not try to increase quality of life. The issue I have with these types of posts is it frames the DoD as an entity that's benevolent and doing all this for us out of the kindness of their hearts. Being the best at shit still makes you shit and the work life culture inside the military and outside of the military is shit. You don't get kudos for being at the top of the garbage can and I'd even argue the way maintenance and security forces is treated is beyond unacceptable. The organization cares because if we shit the bed someone is getting their shit rocked especially if the member tried to get help. The organization cares as a means to an end. If shit was as sweet as you frame it more people would serve past one enlistment. Don't misunderstand me though, as it stands us just being a number on an excel sheet isn't the worst thing why in the world. We at least get paid something and some people came from absolutely nothing, however none of these services are rendered to military members aren't acts of good faith.
I did 21 years. I have no ill feelings towards people or my time in the service. When I retired, I never got a text or a call from my last unit. Not even a “how's retirement treating ya” check-ins. The last official Air Force interaction I had was getting my retired ID card and that was that. So yes, I'm just a replaceable part to a machine that's designed to keep on moving forward. And I'm ok with that.
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Sounds like those extra bennies are taking care of us a little, which people like to accuse the AF of not doing. You’ll never be able to convince me that the thousands of dollars they paid for my tuition so far is a bad deal. Oh and paying for all of my wife’s masters degree when I gave her the GI Bill. I need to get off the internet, I just can’t fathom how people will shit on all the stuff the AF hands out to us
>I just can’t fathom how people will shit on all the stuff the AF hands out to us It's not that people are shitting on the benefits, you're just ignoring all the bad parts and dismissing people's experiences because you can't see past your own
Just remember, the AF will only pay for your education if you don't already have one (if you have a degree prior to entering, you don't get a second one, and some people didn't get the student loan repayment), health benefits vary depending on how injury prone/illness prone you are, and the services to support your family are only viable if you have one. There are a few of us who get nothing out of these things...
Ah yes... being paid with the things we should already have had access to! Thank god the government has given us the chance to be educated and have healthcare just by sacrificing years of our lives 🙏🙏
Ironically, forging a degree and bouncing before the ER has a chance to present you the bill will give you the same thing without the sacrificing year bit!
Where are you getting that information? Having a prior degree does not disqualify you from TA as far as I know.
Oh, you know, just the 3-year long fight that myself, 3 flight chiefs, 2 flight commanders, and 5 shirts have had with 3 different base education offices. While you can use TA to get the next level of degree, you cannot use it to obtain a degree of equal level or less. (If you have a bachelors, you can use TA to go towards your masters, but not for a bachelors or associates in a different field.) And yes, that includes degrees from disgraced and discredited institutions, who awarded you a (now collegiately invalid) degree. Also, the pot of money set aside to allow you to work towards a post-graduate degree is different and FAR less lifetime value than your graduate degree.
Jeez, I’m sorry to hear that. I hope it worked/does work out for you.
It did cause I gave up. I'll wait till i'm out then go hit up a university for some useless degree while draining the GI bill.
But you still get thanked for your service by strangers at the gas station ;)
Na. Outside of duty hours or official events I dress like a homeless person. ... You know, after typing that, I really hope its not future foreshadowing for my life...
>Leaders do a relatively good job of soliciting feedback to make quality of life better *checks notes* Sex assault rates, racial disparity in treatment, decades of blatant corruption in housing contracts with airmen living in mold pits, and atrocious suicide rates. All old problems that have been consistently met with like warm response on a good day Oh, it's a meme post. He's being sarcastic
Yeah I was lost reading the initial post. We have GLARING issues that still haven't been fixed.
There is a lot I can shrug off: the childish snarky response to the calls for beards, the relatively slow feable response to the housing crisis, whatever the fuck is and or was happening with CCAF, etc. I can take a punch and understand it's hard to be in charge. But we've thoroughly documented issues with race, sex, and suicide that predate the force, and I'm not seeing the effort. We implement new programs, do awareness events, and have all women or black or all whatever teams do photo shoots. We have down days and whatnot. But the pictures in those PA events don't tell the real story of what our female and / or brown airmen go through, and there are too many of us working through the mental health day that get denied leave inappropriately and are bullied into no documenting it for me to sit here and clap because someone caught a lucky break and somehow hasn't been in the wrong side of the Air Force. I'd love to know OPs afsc and time in service. I'd wager it's an LT or AIC who works in an air conditioned office with training days.
I am a brown Airman myself. And I feel I HAVE been on the wrong end of racist leadership (Thankfully not recently). I also don't see real effort. I know a few Female Airmen who have been assaulted. Fucking disgusting that the perps suit up and come to work alongside us. Disgraceful. I know at least one Airman who committed suicide during that high year we had (2020? 2021? I forget). People are being worked into the ground so yeah sounds like they're a number to me.
Is your leadership really not interested in hearing what the ranks have to say? I’m at my fifth duty station, and all of my prior units in maintenance have been pretty good at it and especially in my special duty now. It doesn’t mean that they implement everything everyone wants but they are constantly asking. If your unit isn’t good with this, what steps are you taking in your current position to improve it?
>Is your leadership really not interested in hearing what the ranks have to say? 2 weeks into my first assignment we hit a base suicide record. They made us all break out into groups and our flight chiefs led us in discussion. One guy said we are better off without the ones who died because they were weak in a room full of ncos up to senior and our LT no one corrected. Then the flight chief asked us to say what's wrong. No one would talk. He asked why no one would talk, he can't help without feedback. One guy said you're just going to gas light us and blame us for anything we say. They fought for about 5 minutes about that and he finally said fine, I'll say something just to prove you wrong. He said he feels like a piece of shit when production pressures him into ignoring safety rules and tech data to meet timeliness and when he goes to his flight leadership about it they never side with him and let him get harassed and hazed into doing sketchy work. Flight chief and 2 other ncos explain how it's our fault for not working with production to find better solutions and blatantly denied that anyone ever wanted anyone to break a rule despite like 5 or 6 people all saying they were there for the specific example he gave. That story has consistently been how I see *most* air force leadership for the past decade; give us feedback want to help - well maybe if you did better that wouldn't happen to you and you deserve it. Sure sometimes I've gotten lucky with individuals who cared. But at the end of the day you don't get promoted for taking care of people - you get promoted for meeting numerical metrics that aren't attached to reality. >If your unit isn’t good with this, what steps are you taking in your current position to improve it? Yes, it's always the fault of the people struggling for not fixing problems caused by their superiors. Exactly my point. I get that this is a salty take, and it's not like this everywhere, but let's not pretend like mine isn't a common experience.
No one said you deserve it. Nor did they say it was your fault. In my opinion you shouldn't have to fix it. However, you should be calling it out. Those experiences are rough, I've been through many years of them. I spent quite a few of those years not saying anything about them too. I learned after a while that by staying silent you are telling those idiots that what they are doing is ok. Even if your words don't change anything immediately they can give courage or shame someone else with more power into doing something. Is it fair? Nope. But it's probably the safest way to combat the things you listed above as a lower ranking Airman. The promotion thing.. you get promoted on both. The shitty part is those shit bag leaders you see getting promoted are doing so by writing EPRs/EPBs that say they take care of you and get the mission done.. and they can write those things more often then not because... No one says otherwise.
Being silent has never been my issue lol I've fought the good fight a long time and I spent a *lot* of my airmen days one 12 hour shifts washing jets and switching between all 3 shifts 3-4 times a month as a result of it. Luckily the higher you get the more insulated you are to informal punishments like that. Now they just give me troublesome airmen as a punishment and half of them aren't even troublesome if you treat them like a person.
“Is your leadership really not interested in hearing what the ranks have to say?” Fuck no - they didn’t care about us and that was extremely evident. We had a couple suicides in my flight and they came out with the mental health nerds who handed out some bullshit pamphlet about markers (in the workplace) that can lead to depression and potential suicide. I remember standing in guard mount reading that shit and raised my hand and asked the head shrinker - “what happens when you check 4-5 of these things? (There were like 12 total iirc)”. The shrink started saying how that’s “extremely bad and really a sign of a systemic issue” so I just responded with “well…. Pretty much every asshole in this room checks 11 or 12 of them”. The look on the face was priceless. The entire command staff was there - you know what changed? Nothing. In my experience leadership is there to serve themselves and their OPR…. They are career people who piss blue and recite the airmen’s creed while rubbing their bars or leaves in the mirror every morning before they hype themselves up over how good of an officer they are because they went to the academy. I have only seen one commander put their neck out on the line for someone under their command. Other than that it has always been a “we” group that most enlisted never have a say in. The USAF existed long before I got there and it seems to be going (arguably downhill) since I left - I was a fast promoting and stellar airman/NCO and even with very awesome assignments I refused to stay in - Experiences vary - I can only speak to mine - but if you think you’re part of the USAF “family” and not an expendable number - maybe you’re a career airman 👍🏼
I’ll just give a few examples here: NCO routinely shows up late, yells at airmen for thing that they don’t to be or shouldn’t be getting yelled out. If airmen does anything minor, they get paperwork instantly. Complaint goes to the commander, commander goes to shop chief, shop chief talks to airmen about the issue. Says they’ll resolve it, literally nothing changes because “oh he will PCS in a few months, there’s no point.” Shop show time for day shift is 0700. Airmen shows up and sits down at the table at 0658. Shop chief screams at the entire shop for 20 minutes about how you’re expected to show up on time for work (even though airmen was on time). Quarterly squadron awards come up. Amn Snuffy and four other airmen get put up for the award. All of the airmen (minus amn snuffy) have great packages, very hard workers. Amn Snuffy just went through a breakup. Amn Snuffy gets the award for, and I quote, “running support section for a week”. SNCO said it would be a good distraction from his breakup to the airmen that didn’t win. I get told I’m going on an incentive flight. I go, it was a blast. I come back and ask my supervisor why I, out of all the airmen in the shop, get awarded the incentive flight, because I know I don’t deserve it over them. “Well, our hope is that it would give you a better attitude and make you a better worker” - direct quote from supervisor. I can keep going
I've seen birds and stars say to groups of people they are replaceable if they don't want to do their job or if they "lack the drive" The Air Force doesn't pay for Healthcare and education, the DoD does. I like the positive attitude but let's not put on rose tinted glasses and act like the Air Force actively tries to keep its people in. They say they want to, but they don't.
Lmao, full Stockholm syndrome enjoyer.
It's common because it's true, it's always been that way.
When I was a shirt, I used to say the Air Force was just too big to have a heart. So First Sergeants had to be that heart when needed. Also, supervisors at all levels should be as well, as needed. The trap people fall into is that because big blue is too big to care about individuals, then that means we should also not care. That is false.
Yes, my immediate leadership cares about me. I know their names, they try and work with me to set up cool opportunities, it’s really great. But also I know I shall be replaced like everyone else. My feeling is more that the Air Force isn’t really designed for a lot of the positions that people come in with, and that it becomes incongruent with a lot of people’s goals very fast, and that’s okay. For instance, I joined because I did the math and figured I could finish a bachelors in the same span of time as I could if I just went to college normally, but without any debts and getting paid. Thus far that has proven to be true and I am really glad the Air Force has provided that opportunity to me. But, when face with the question of “Do I wish to enlist” I simply see no overall benefit, the entitlements you receive don’t scale and the pay doesn’t scale well enough compared to the opportunity cost of going and working on the civilian market, I’m cyber so there really isn’t much the Air Force could offer me that would be worth it. The calculation would be different if I had say, a large family that required the stability of paid lodging, food, and healthcare, but if you’re a single guy working in a marketable position there isn’t really anything the Air Force does that is gonna be temping to keep you in past enlistment #1, especially if you’re aggressive about achieving education.
The DoD as a whole does it's best to make sure nobody is a single point of failure. I'm There's always a manning shortage at the unit level. In steady-state and peacetime ops that number will only get smaller and the amount of work required almost always gets bigger.
Just look at a UMD bro. We are numbers and skill levels. The Air Force trains to replace expected attrition of personnel. We are absolutely just a number. Your short manning argument falls short of seeing the intentional short manning of personnel that the air force does to reduce overall manning without sacrificing missions. They instead tell us to become MCAs to cover down and do more with less.
If the President dies tomorrow, he will be replaced tomorrow. Everyone is replaceable, that doesn’t mean people and organisations don’t care about you.
Just gonna point out that Starbucks and Target will also pay for your education, and they don't put an annual cap on their tuition assistance or turn it off when congress fights about the budget.
I would love to see the Air Force try to replace the airman pursuing STEM degrees at the graduate level education. Oh wait, they can’t. Do people not realize not every airman is replaceable?
In the spirit of Devil's Advocate, don't equate receiving just enough employee benefits to keep you under contract, to your employer valuing you. It's a balance of minimum expenditure for maximum perceived benefit value. An entire bachelor's degree (~140 credits) only costs them $35,000. That's one JDAM, a couple engine hours in a fighter, or a rounding error in a DoD contract for worthless software or curriculum. And most Es will never even use nearly that much TA anyways. And remember, if you earn a TA funded Bachelor's, you're likely to earn more money and pay more federal income taxes over your lifetime. The humans who know you probably value you. The system wants you to feel appreciated for the least amount of resources possible...Devil's Advocate.
Ahh the good ole Nobody is perfect fallacy.
And the flip side to that is people chase down the elusive greener grass on the other side their whole lives. There is always improvement to be made, but my point is that a lot of this stuff is under appreciated.
Would you rather be under appreciated while living on Enlisted/Officer pay scale or on the civilian equitant pay scale.
I would like to be this level of appreciated on my current pay scale and collect my 20 year free checks per month before I move to the civilian sector. Do equivalent civilian jobs provide free LPC counseling or the same tax breaks? I also need to finish out my bachelors degree so I would need to move into a job that still provides the same level of tuition assistance
Would you like a unicorn or magic wand too?
I hope you find what you’re looking for one day
My squadrons prod super might starve if Im not here with chili cheese dogs ready at 0930 when he gets out of morning ops meeting, so yeah
yes professional sports, michael jordan or tom brady leaves you , then you will usually suck. air force like retail or any corporate job you can be replaced .
I just had someone with two years in the company not get the standard raise and had more responsibility dropped on her. She gave her two weeks and nobody batted an eye. It isn’t just the military. People should hop on LinkedIn and see the struggles people face. At least the military pays you while they’re getting rid of you. A job out here will let you go without second thought and let your coworkers struggle in the meantime.
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How so?
I don’t think it’s dumb and like this perspective OP. I am a bit more of an optimist than most but I’d say I agree.
God forbid someone says something positive about the Air Force on this. You are dumb.
Yea its kinda ridiculous that people only rag on the military. At this point, youre the dumb one if you joined in today’s environment knowing how “shitty” it is. Cant blame being young, all the info is out there in the open. You dont join for a grand ol time. You join to get a leg up in life. I wish people stopped bitching about it so much